ajcsportstalk

By Mike from the coast

August 30, 2006 10:37 PM | Link to this

No comment on the game. But I’ll say this, I was on the bandwagon to dump LaRoche back in June. I was wrong, not just because of tonight, but for the last two months. He is exceptional defensively and his bat is much quicker than I ever thought it was. Don’t know what we are going to do with Thorman, I believe it would be huge mistake to lose him because I think he will be a legit big league hitter with power. Hope he can play left, because I don’t see him replacing LaRoche anytime soon. Great catch by Andruw tonight, good pitching by James.

By evan

August 30, 2006 10:48 PM | Link to this

im so sick of the espn and how they continue to ignore the braves. i would love it if the braves won the wild card and followed recent wild card sucessful teams and went to the world series by beating the mets and david messiah wright going 0-fer. also would it kill them to mention how chuck james is now 7-3 and doing a lot better than cole hamels who they also seem to worship. by the way andruws catch was ridiculous

By braves fan

August 30, 2006 10:53 PM | Link to this

i know on ESPN the braves are 4 games back of the wildcard and they say ”the braves are only 4.5 games back of the wildcard” they hate us

By Brad in KY

August 30, 2006 10:59 PM | Link to this

Given how well LaRoche has played, when will they stop batting him 8th when lefties are pitching? And he should never, ever have to bat behind Francouer again…

What’s more frustrating is that Francouer is allowed to run out there and play everyday and yet he still hasn’t learned how to take a pitch. I make the following claim with a straight face: Francouer’s season is probably one of the worst ones ever by a player with 20+ homers and approx 100 RBIs. It’s an extreme example of how poor the so-called “MVP” stats are concerning a player’s production. Until Francouer starts getting on base, he should be platooning (and I say this because OBP is, perhaps, the single most important of the traditional stats regarding offensive production)…and LaRoche needs to be put in the best position possible to contribute, even against lefties.

At any rate, I wish it was because of the Braves’ good play that they’re still in the playoff hunt rather than how crappy the NL is. One should, however, never look a gift horse in the mouth so I’ll be happy if they make the playoffs.

By evan

August 30, 2006 11:04 PM | Link to this

now this is just ridiculous andruws catch was number 2 web gem to tavaras catches one he was standing under and another HE DOVE AFTER HE CAUGHT THE BALL. im about to just quit watching espn altogether.

By R1U

August 30, 2006 11:05 PM | Link to this

Yo Dude Chill out…complaining doesn’t help…enjoy what we have..it IS all we got!!!

By Greg

August 30, 2006 11:09 PM | Link to this

The Braves are finally putting together a string of wins at home. They have been way overdue. I still don’t know if they will make the playoffs. It would be great if the Braves went on a 10-12 game win streak. They would pass 6 -7 teams. Man I hope they keep on winning in order to get to .500. When they reach five, fans will see if the Braves have that killer instinct and finish the season with 20 wins in September. It would be amazing if the finish off a hot Giants team with a sweep and win consecutive series versus the Mets/Phillies, they don’t necessarily have to sweep them. The must take 2/3 in NY and win 3/4 in Philly. It can be done, but will the Braves run out of steam and return back to inconsistency? That remains to be seen.

By Shaun

August 30, 2006 11:11 PM | Link to this

Brad in KY,

Good post. I’m glad to see someone finally agrees that just because Francouer drives in a lot of runs and hits a lot of homers, he’s not a great player…in fact he’s below fringe level offensively. It is rediculous that he’s been allowed to come to the plate more than anyone on the team. If it was my team, he’d probably be in the minors for another season or two.

That said, Francouer is cheap and his glove may push him from below fringe to fringe.

I do think Francouer has a good shot to become a productive player if not a star. He’s just not ready yet offensively.

By Brad

August 30, 2006 11:12 PM | Link to this

Brad in NY, There is more to baseball that offense. Yes, Francouer has a problem of taking pitches, but otherwise he has had an ok year at the plate. He has been inconsistent, but he is only in his 2nd year. He will learn to take pitches as he matures as a player. Defensively, he has a great arm and plays pretty good outfield. Oh, and by the way, who would you put out there in his place. or platoon as you said. I say this with a straight face, Francouer should play everyday.

By Shaun

August 30, 2006 11:18 PM | Link to this

How about Adam LaRoche? Remember the piece Dave O’Brien posted about LaRoche’s hitting at Turner Field? He actually was much better at Turner Field throughout his career before this season, which would seem to indicate there was no reason to think he lost his ability to hit at the Ted in ‘06. Things seem to be evening out now.

By Brad

August 30, 2006 11:25 PM | Link to this

There are two reasons he as more at bats, first, he hasn’t missed a game all year. Second, like you said he doesn’t take pitches like he should which means he doesn’t walk that much. The other players have walks which don’t count as AB’s

Remember Andruw Jones, he wasn’t so good with taking pitches either.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

August 30, 2006 11:29 PM | Link to this

Are you people hitting the pipe? Yes, Francouer needs to mature as a hitter, but exactly where do you think this team would be without his 20+HR and almost 100RBI? Do you honestly think Diaz (as good as he is)or Langerhans or Thorman would have put up those numbers. You didn’t even know the name Scott Thorman until two weeks before he got called up. Frenchy’s wild swings frustrates me as much as anyone but to basically say is a below average player is just moronic. I’m sorry! Flat out stupid! Of course, you are the same people who were saying that LaRoche should be traded and that Wickman was a fat lard who couldn’t close. It kills me how I was blasted on these blogs in June for suggesting we get Wickman and now most of you want to lick his spikes. Get out of here, man! Be real! Francouer and LaRoche have hit 50HR and driven in almost 170RBI. Where would this team be without that production? I don’t get how anyone can say that RBI “the so-called MVP stats” are a poor example of a players production. Isn’t part of the goal of the game to score runs and drive them in? That’s like saying ERA and WHIP are a poor example of how well a pitcher pitches. I guess Ryan Howard is nothing more than a overblown Barry Bonds wannabe right?

By Shaun

August 30, 2006 11:31 PM | Link to this

Brad,

There is more to baseball than offense but the ball is only going to be hit near Francouer so many times. A player is going to affect the outcome of the game much more with his bat than with his glove. That’s not to say you shouldn’t play an amazing shortstop with an average bat, but a player’s offense is more important in the runs scored/allowed equation with concern to an outfielder.

Sure Francouer, from all accounts, is a superb rightfielder but an average defensive rightfielder with a good bat would be more valuable than Francouer’s great defense and bad bat.

Francouer is not having even an okay year at the plate because he’s made an out in over 70 percent of his plate appearances/he’s getting on-base in fewer than 30 percent of his plate appearances.

Sure there is more to offense than on-base percentage, but Brad is right in saying on-base percentage/out percentage is the most important stat with concern to run production.

By johnbama

August 30, 2006 11:35 PM | Link to this

guys/gals we are now chasing sd and cin/stl. reds will be solid the rest of the way. st louis…..they are not that good. sd isnt either. i say we are chasing those 3 teams cause we now have a chance to handle our own business. we have philly for 7 left and fla for 3. we have already locked up a 2 out of 3 from sf. maybe we can sweep. a hot stretch over the next two weeks and we are in it. dont think different for a second that if we are there that teams will not look at the braves and expect them to win. the rest of these guys are hoping to win and they know it.

as for the lineup laroche frenchy thing. no offense to those that are not on board yet with frenchy but 90+rbi and a ton of 2 out rbi at this point speaks volumes. i could care less what ob% is. laroche…where do you hit him….6 or 7…who cares. mccann is our 5th the rest of the way. move laroche up and he hits 6 and frenchy 7. either way i like it. the threeof mccann laroche and french is our future….and a very very bright one i must add. laroche is headed nowhere and there is no platoon next year. frenchy….he will be the dale murphy for our franchise over the next 10 years. mccann is a .300 and 20 hr catcher for years to come. there is no reason we will not get a .280 70hr and 280 rbi seasons from those guys for the next 5 years. mix in a solid chipper, a renteria and a jones over that same time frame and there is a lot of runs.

dont look now by c james is becoming the man. he is going to take hold of the mantle as the lefty with 15 wins and a 3.50- era for several years. mix that with smoltz, whatever hudson has left and a hampton next year and you are looking at the best combined staff in the nl if not baseball next year. big question this year and even next will be the pen. can they give us enough to stay competative.

By Brad

August 30, 2006 11:35 PM | Link to this

Since you said he should be in the minors, who would you put in his place?

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

August 30, 2006 11:35 PM | Link to this

Also, without the below average Francoeur’s game winning hits this season the Braves would not even be close to the wild card right now.

By Shaun

August 30, 2006 11:36 PM | Link to this

Robert (Justice Is The Best),

You have been conditioned to think homers and RBI are good indications of player production, but they are context-dependent. Here’s an article for you:

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=2562

Here are some excerpts if you don’t want to read the whole thing:

# Counting stats (RBI, HR, runs scored) aren’t very informative because they’re highly context dependent and don’t account for how many outs a player is using up.

# Percentage stats are far better than counting stats, but only in the presence of a sizeable data sample (i.e., plate appearances).

# Percentage stats are only negligibly influenced by teammates and lineup slotting, but, like all traditional statistics, they are influenced by ballpark and historical era.

# Players at the corner positions generally produce better offensive numbers than those players at the more vital up-the-middle positions.

# AVG isn’t really useful unless viewed in tandem with OBP, SLG and plate appearances.

# And the greatest of these is OBP because it can also tell you how often a player creates outs at the plate.

By Brad

August 30, 2006 11:38 PM | Link to this

and no, obs isn’t the most important stat with run production. you can get on base all you want, but if nobody hits you in(rbi) you won’t score.

By Shaun

August 30, 2006 11:43 PM | Link to this

Brad,

I think Diaz, Langerhans and Thorman should be sharing time in the corner outfield slots. How about Gregor Blanco or moving Wes Timmons to the outfield? Or signing an average free agent outfielder that gets on base in more than 30 percent of his plate appearances?

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

August 30, 2006 11:43 PM | Link to this

Shaun, I haven’t been conditioned to think anything. This isn’t the old USSR. So, you feel that it doesn’t really matter if a guy drives in runs if his OBP isn’t over .370 or somethinng to that effect. Let me ask you a question, man. Its game 7 of the WS runner on 2nd w/2 out in the bottom of the 9th. Who would you rather have at the plate? Big Pappi or Francoeur neither of whom don’t have impressive OBP but have shown the knack for driving in runs especially when it matters most or some guys the likes of Dave Roberts or Ryan Freel who have excellent OBP?

By Brad

August 30, 2006 11:48 PM | Link to this

Thorman, is below 300 in obp Diaz is hitting well. So you say Langerhans is hitting better than Francouer just because obp is better?

By Shaun

August 30, 2006 11:49 PM | Link to this

Brad,

If you don’t get on base, how are you going to come around to score? Look at the teams that score the most runs and what do they have in common? They all post high on-base percentages. Why? Because outs are the only finite resource in baseball and avoiding outs is the same thing as getting on base. The team that puts the most runners on base in between outs is the team that scores the most runs. That goes for defense also, the team that allows the fewest runs is the team that allows the fewest baserunners between outs.

The easiest way to think of it is from a defensive perspective. You are trying to get outs (which is the same thing as not giving up baserunners). Why wouldn’t it follow that on offense you are trying to avoid outs.

I think the problem with on-base percentage is people don’t see the other side of it: out percentage. They are the same stat expressed in different ways.

By Brad

August 30, 2006 11:51 PM | Link to this

Robert, I agree mostly, but bad argument, Big Pappi has a 400 obp.

But Francour’s problem is being inconsistant. He has 91 RBI’s this year. So he has had good AB’s when it matters.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

August 30, 2006 11:52 PM | Link to this

Shaun, if the Braves were to make Francoeur and his low OBP available for trade right now how many teams do you thinnk would break their neck to get him? That’s right. Just about all of them. I cannot believe you are suggesting getting rid of a guy who is only in his second year (1st full year) and has already shown the ability to come through when it counts most. I understand what you are trying to say, but I would bet you $100 million dollars that if every team in the majors took their best “on base guy” and put him in the 4 hole so he could get the maximum opportunities to drive in runs and I’m willing to say that 90% of them are horrendous failures at driving in runs.

Don’t you think a “power hitter” should be judged more on his avg w/risp than on base. I mean isn’t that what they are there for. I understand that apparently driving in runs is overrated. I have to say though that without LaRoche and his overrated RBI that the Braves don’t win tonight.

By Shaun

August 30, 2006 11:52 PM | Link to this

Robert (Justice Is the Best),

On-base percentage isn’t everything, I’ll agree with you there. It’s just the most important offensive stat.

And since when does David Ortiz not have an impressive on-base percentage? His career OBP is .366 and he hasn’t posted one under .369 since he’s been with the Red Sox.

I’ll take David Ortiz…but I’d rather have Albert Pujols than anybody.

By gotigers72

August 30, 2006 11:54 PM | Link to this

Those of you that are hammering Francoeur. Have you been Braves’ fans long enough to remember a guy named Dale Murphy? Yeah, the guy that won 2 MVPs. If so, do you remember how he struggled when he first came up? Not only hitting, but he was a catcher that had a mental block so bad that he couldn’t throw the ball back to the pitcher. I’m glad blogs weren’t around then or some of you would have wanted to send him to Siberia and he would have never won those 2 MVPs.

Francoeur is only 22 years old and had to learn on the fly due to circumstances [Raul Mondesi not working out} beyond his control. Get off his case and give him a couple of more years to learn his craft. He is a fantastic athlete, runs like a deer, great arm [not only does he throw people out, but he keeps them from even trying to run on him], hustles all of the time. He needs to learn some discipline at the plate, but in my opinion, one day will be in Murphy territory. He’s a baby just learning to walk. Next time you want to hammer him, think about Murph who was also somewhat undisciplined at the plate his first couple of years.

By Brad

August 30, 2006 11:54 PM | Link to this

I agree that Francoeurs OBP stinks. And it is a problem. But He has done well in other catagories. He hits runners that do have a good OBP home. My point is that you say Francoeur is stinks offensively just because he doesn’t get on base. For a leadoff guy, this would be true, but Francouer’s job is to hit people home.

By Shaun

August 30, 2006 11:55 PM | Link to this

Robert,

I’m not suggesting getting rid of Francouer. If you read my previous post I say Francouer is likely to become productive if not a star. He’s just not ready yet.

And LaRoche is valuable because of his ability to get on-base and because of his power.

By J.D.

August 31, 2006 12:00 AM | Link to this

ANYONE who says that Francoeur should be traded is crazy…Andruw was the same way at Jeff’s age, swinging at pitches way out of the strike zone, and now look at him, hes the best CF in the game and one of best players…Nothing against Thorman, Langy or Diaz, but who would you rather have up in a clutch 9th inning situation…them or Jeff? I’d take Francoeur everytime

By dfree

August 31, 2006 12:00 AM | Link to this

to all you dumbass wanna-be gm’s who say francouer needs to be in the minors, moved down in the order….first, he is clutch, totally more clutch than say…. o laroche (he’s hot and becoming a big player, but anyone remember that bunt in the top of the 9th against the marlins?) he hits WAY better than langerhans, and some of you say his defense is good enough to keep him in, well frenchy’s defense is almost as good, plus he has a better arm, secondly, laroche hits a lot better in the 7 and 8 hole than he ever did as a 5 hitter, look up the stats before you start talkin, i guess you find something that works with the guy, then put him back where he was struggling REAL SMART, finaly, who the hell do you want to play right? langerhans? no way, doesnt have the arm, or bat, he’s a fourth outfielder, Diaz? no power, he is almost the anti-francouer: high average absolutely no production from those hits. the idea is would you rather have a guy in the lineup that will get a lot of hits or one that drives them in, id sacrifice 50 hits if it meant 30 or 40 rbi’s. Most major leaguers tell you, RBI’s are the best stat. For a 22 year old kid, frenchy is doing awesome, take out the slump he started out with and hes got a .280 something avg, im glad his homers and rbi’s are coming for us rather than richomond (o and without him, wed never won the east last year) WHEW im done!

By Shaun

August 31, 2006 12:00 AM | Link to this

Brad and Robert,

Francouer stinks offensively because he makes too many outs (the same thing as not getting on base). How many RBI do you think an average or an above average hitter (i.e., a hitter that doesn’t make so many outs) would drive in instead of Francouer? A lot more because he wouldn’t make an out in 70 percent of his plate appearances.

Just read the article and it will make a lot of sense to you:

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=2562

It’s not like I want RBI or batting average or homeruns to be unreliable in judging players. They just are. And there are stats that are much better.

By David

August 31, 2006 12:01 AM | Link to this

Ortiz’s OBP is over 1. He’s got one of the best in baseball. I like Frenchy and agree that his clutch hits have been invaluable this season. Even acknowledging that, however, he’s been an automatic out in our lineup more than almost any other hitter in the NL. That’s troublesome.

By Ron Roberts

August 31, 2006 12:02 AM | Link to this

Francouer’s inability to take pitches and work ‘em into deeper counts is why he’s not a feared batter, right now. The fact that they don’t fear him is probably why he has as many homers as he’s hit, ironically, but if he ain’t rippin’ 35-55 homers, then his low average and inability to work counts keeps him down down down in the order, far as I’m concerned.

You’d think, given some time to mature, that he’d realize when tight situations and game-altering moments call for some patience at the plate, and yet, he just flails away so much.

Now, onto LaRoche. Where would this team be without him? Alllllllll those myopic bloggers who berated him have just clammed up about him, haven’t they? Alllllll those myopic bloggers who were verbally accosting Bobby Cox for not immediately benching, demoting or getting rid of the guy look like fools, frankly.

That’s what happens when ya log on and start typing with raw emotion; ya’ll ever watch TLC and see those commercials for the stupid collectable “Live & Learn” figurines? The “Chardonnay and E-mail Don’t Work Together” piece comes to mind.

This is getting interesting, though, have to admit. And I’ll be the first to tell ya after losing two of three to lowly Pittsburgh that I was ready to pack this one in. But if Smoltz does what he does well, tomorrow night, and the Friars and Red Leggings flub, holy cow, we’re within a three-game reach of actually catching ‘em? Weird season.

Let’s get to .500 and see where that puts us. I worry more about the Phillies and Marlins, frankly; the Phillies are about as complete a team as we would be, in a down-to-the-wire race, and the Padres have a more stout rotation, as does Houston, on paper. But here we are, slugging our way back into this thing with Kyle Davies coming back (and hopefully contributing to a run) and maybe, just maybe, we’ve found a #5 guy worth considering in Cormier and/or Villareal.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

August 31, 2006 12:03 AM | Link to this

Shaun, you do realize that this is baseball and even the best hitters fail over 60% of the time and the vast majority fail to get on base 60% of the time? I agree with you that you have to get on base to score runs but what good is it for guys to get on base if you don’t have guys who can get hits to drive them in. Go ask the Red Sox right now what they think. Crisp, Loretta, and Youklis are getting on base but no runs are being scored because Big Pappi and Manny aren’t there to drive them in. I realize that both of those guys get on base a lot but they know when its time to take a walk and when to hit a dinger. Big Pappi isn’t Big Pappi because he has a bunch of walk-off walks. He gets hits and drives in runs. I think Francoeur’s ability to drive in runs with 2 outs, drive so many in from the 7th inning on, and get a crap load of walk-off hits says a lot about his makeup. A lot of guys can’t handle the pressure and come through when it counts.

Do you really think this team would be anywhere near the wild card without Francoeur? Seriously. That is the same sort of silly agrument some will make about the overblown importance of middle relief. I just laugh at that those arguments. Middle relief isn’t important? Really? Well, ask Cox what he thinks about that.

Francoeur needs to take more walks that is for sure. But, to say he doesn’t belong on this team is asinine. Really!

By Shaun

August 31, 2006 12:06 AM | Link to this

To all of you mediocre minds who don’t realize that Triple Crown stats are meaningless when judging a player offensively

Francouer stinks offensively because he makes too many outs (the same thing as not getting on base). How many RBI do you think an average or an above average hitter (i.e., a hitter that doesn’t make so many outs) would drive in instead of Francouer? A lot more because he wouldn’t make an out in 70 percent of his plate appearances.

Just read the article and it will make a lot of sense to you:

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=2562

It’s not like I want RBI or batting average or homeruns to be unreliable in judging players. They just are. And there are stats that are much better.

No one said Francouer should be traded and I would take him in a heartbeat. He’s just not ready yet offensively.

Here’s an excerpt from the article linked above:

-Counting stats (RBI, HR, runs scored) aren’t very informative because they’re highly context dependent and don’t account for how many outs a player is using up.

-Percentage stats are far better than counting stats, but only in the presence of a sizeable data sample (i.e., plate appearances).

-Percentage stats are only negligibly influenced by teammates and lineup slotting, but, like all traditional statistics, they are influenced by ballpark and historical era.

-Players at the corner positions generally produce better offensive numbers than those players at the more vital up-the-middle positions.

-AVG isn’t really useful unless viewed in tandem with OBP, SLG and plate appearances.

-And the greatest of these is OBP because it can also tell you how often a player creates outs at the plate.

By Brad in KY

August 31, 2006 12:09 AM | Link to this

Robert

If I need a hit, I’d like to have the player who is most likely to get a hit. So neither Francouer or Ortiz (although given the two, I would take Ortiz without even thinking about it - isn’t that obvious?).

By the way, Francouer is going to set an all-time record this season: the most outs ever made by a player in a single season. Wow. At least he has a good glove, right?

In addition, his OBP is far worse than you suggest, Robert. It currently stands at .288. Ortiz’s OBP is currently .400, which is exceptional, while his career OBP is .371, which is still good. So I have no idea what you’re talking about…

The fact is that, over time, Francoeur will stop getting 2-out hits. His situational hitting, given a large enough sample size, will begin to look like his season/career splits. Sorry. Also, Francoeur has never gotten on base much, even in the minors. So, each day that passes without him dropping the super aggressive approach means less chance of him even being able to if he wanted to.

And last but not least: If Francoeur were getting on base then those players who frequently hit behind him would knock him in. For instance, Diaz, LaRoche, McCann, and Thorman all come to mind. They’re all very good hitters who not only get hits but get on base a lot. Why is getting on base an important factor? Because you can’t knock runners in everytime. Sometimes the bases are empty. Plus, you’re going to be making outs 70%+ when you’re swinging away. So taking walks becomes a huge factor, because it allows other players the chance to knock you in or, at least, advance you. And making fewer outs is always good. Duh.

By Shaun

August 31, 2006 12:13 AM | Link to this

Robert(Justice Is The Best),

The best hitters do fail 60 percent of the time, which means they get on base 40 percent of the time. Francour fails over 70 percent of the time. Thanks for proving my point.

And I do think the Braves would score even more runs with an average or above average hitter instead of Francouer. (I didn’t say trade Francouer, mind you.)

As far as the Red Sox, their offense is based on minimizing outs (the same as getting on-base) and power. I’m positive they woudl agree with what I’m saying, that triple crown stats are vastly overrated.

By Shaun Payne

August 31, 2006 12:15 AM | Link to this

I feel like I’m sitting in on the Flat Earth Society conference with all these people that want to ignore the evidence and logic that RBI don’t tell us anything.

By Shaun Payne

August 31, 2006 12:18 AM | Link to this

Brad in KY,

Finally, someone who gets it!

Check out BaseballTruth.com. I write on there a good bit.

By Brad in KY

August 31, 2006 12:20 AM | Link to this

Comparing Francoeur to Manny Ramirez and David Ortiz is ridiculous.

Francoeur has no idea what he’s doing when he comes to the plate. He’s far more aggressive than Andruw Jones ever was.

Answer me this: What makes a “clutch” hitter? How many at-bats in those situations does a player need to be considered “clutch”? 5, 10, 20? 500? What’s a “clutch” average?

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

August 31, 2006 12:22 AM | Link to this

I think Francoeur will learn and become more patient although he will never be a “patient” hitter. Some guys just arenn’t. Look at Vlad Guerrero. He will swing at anything. If you remember he was as bad as Francoeur when he came up. He just learned somehow how to hit bad pitches. I’ll be really honest. I can’t think of one RF in the NL that I would take over Frenchy right now. Also, don’t lay all of Jeff’s aggressiveness at his feet. He does have a manager and a hitting coach who continue to encourage his aggressiveness. If Frenchy’s OBP is still deplorable two years from now I will agree he is below average.

As for LaRoche, the guy has been great. Look if it were up to a lot of the people on these blogs LaRoche, Giles, Chipper, and Diaz would have already been traded and Renteria would have never even been a Brave. It kills me how so many people are wagon jumpers. How many people on here who praise Renteria now were just 8 months ago demanding JS to be fired for making such a stupid trade? Probably the same amount who called me “stupid”, “an idiot”, “a loser”, and “a jackass” for saying the trade was great. I remember people on here saying Frenchy would never hit about .200 and would be lucky to drive in 30 RBI. Yeah!

Chipper was said to be washed up. Looks like the grim reaper is on his doorstep to me. Heck, some on here were blasting Smoltz early on saying he was washed up. Well, I wish we had 2 more “washed up” pitchers like Smoltz right now. What was Giles called? Oh yeah, the “steroid midget”. Please. Now, you hear how we can’t get rid of him because he is such a scrapper. Whatever!

I even hear how Cox and JS are idiots. What! Look, I have been as critical of those two guys as anyone but to say they should be fired and don’t know what they are doing is moronic. They have won 14 straight divisional titles. Idiots can’t get that lucky. That is called skill.

Ron, I agee you. It is funny how all of those people just disappear. The Chipper bashers, Giles bashers, Renteria doubters, I hate LaRoche club, and the Wickman is too fat to close society are all inconspicuously quiet.

By Shaun Payne

August 31, 2006 12:24 AM | Link to this

Before I go to bed I must recommend the book Baseball Between the Numbers. You’ll learn more from that book than any baseball book you will ever read.

Brad in KY, keep up the good fight!

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

August 31, 2006 12:35 AM | Link to this

A clutch hitter is someone who comes through when it counts the most. Look at Jeter. So, basically Brad in KY you think Frenchy is taking up unnecessary space? Well, maybe we can get Mondesi back. He can’t hit but he sure can get take a walk and get on base….well, when is not strking out.

Also, I didn’t necessarily compare Frenchy to Ortiz and Manny, but Frenchy’s late inning RBI are among the best in the majors.

A guy who comes up with the game on the line and comes through is a good hitter in my book. A whole lot of guys don’t like that situation nor do they thrive in it. It is no different than a closer. I mean do you feel that “closers” are overrated? Some guys have no problem getting those outs in the 7th but put them on the mound in the 9th with the game on the line and they can’t do it. Same with a “clutch” hitter. Frenchy wants to be in those situations becasue he wants to succeed. Maybe he is just a glory hound. I don’t know. I don’t really care as long as he keeps coming through and winning ball games. Kind of like Schilling. The guys is totally self absorbed and always seeks the spotlight but does any of that really matters if he comes through more often than not.

I honestly pray that McCann doesn’t “struggle” and only hits .290 next season. Because if he does, I can only imagine that bashing he will receive on this blog.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

August 31, 2006 12:37 AM | Link to this

Well, Brian Jordan will be activated on Sept. 1. We can put him in RF and bench Francoeur. BJ has always had a decent on OBP. I’m sure he will lead us to the wild card. Aren’t you?

By Brad in KY

August 31, 2006 12:50 AM | Link to this

Robert

I never said Francoeur should be traded, I said he should platoon. You’ve constructed an infamous straw-man argument.

Also, I’m not “bashing” Francoeur. I’m simply trying to think well about how the Braves might improve their lineup. I happen to think, based on some facts and a way of reading those facts, that Francoeur isn’t very good right now and he’s hurting the team with every at-bat he gets (because he makes lots of outs). That’s not bashing. That’s called analysis.

You really ought to look at a stats page before you make these ridiculous claims. Vlad Guerrero’s career OBP is .390! And his lowest OBP in a full season was .371! That, by the way, was his first full season at the age of 22. Also, he’s never struck out more than 95 times in a season (1998) and his career average is 75 strikeouts to 61 walks per season. Pretty awesome for a power hitter that also hits for average.

The only player comparable, I guess, would be Murphy. And, well, it would be nice if that’s how Francoeur turns out. But I’m talking about the present, and it’s pretty ugly.

By Head Coach

August 31, 2006 12:51 AM | Link to this

Somebody wake me up , if and when this team gets to .500

By Louis Vales

August 31, 2006 12:52 AM | Link to this

The NL is a joke. Unless your team is in Pittsburgh, Chicago , Washington and Denver you can win the Wild Card. And league is so pitiful you could win 2 series and play in the World Series. Would really enjoy a team at 80-82 beating the Yankees in the “Fall Classic???????”

By Brad

August 31, 2006 12:57 AM | Link to this

I don’t think we need to sacrifice our defense for our offense. The Braves have one of the best offense in baseball. They are currently 3rd in runs scored. I stay stick with Francoeur. He makes timely hits and hits in a lot of runs. He is young and will imporove his obp. But I don’t think we need to improve the lineup offensively, it’s doing just fine.

By Brad

August 31, 2006 01:00 AM | Link to this

I would enjoy any team beating the Yankees anytime.

By gotigers72

August 31, 2006 01:06 AM | Link to this

In a normal progression Francoeur would be in AAA this year. But he is in MLB because his team needed him to be. You can quote all the stats you want, but stats that matter is that he plays with hustle and heart and does things to help his team. Whether that be hustling out a hit, throwing out a runner, etc. He also leads or is close to the lead in 2 out RBIs. That means clutch to those of you questioning that stat.

I am thinking that you people finding fault with this kid because he is undisciplined at the plate know absolutely nothing about the game of baseball. There are a lot more things, intangibles included, that go into making an above average MLB player, and Frenchy has those things. Look at every facet of the game and he is above average, except for the one facet of plate discipline. The main thing is he plays hard and is still just 22 years old.

Same thing goes for Marcus. People have blasted him on thes blogs, and wanted to trade him all year long. Do you even pay attention to how he plays the game? He made 2 plays tonight that saved the Braves a run. Without those plays, it’s a tie game. Hardly a game goes by that he doesn’t make a diving play or other excellent play that gives the Braves an out. Don’t you people know how important defense is in a baseball game? Marcus is another that plays with heart and hustle. Francoeur, Marcus, Chipper, Andruw, McCann and Smoltz and others that I am not aware of, all WANT to be Braves. You better thank your lucky stars as Braves fans that they have that attitude.

By Brad in KY

August 31, 2006 01:13 AM | Link to this

Robert

Closers are overrated, but that’s another story. Perhaps we can just stick to the topic at hand.

There is no such thing as a clutch hitter. Why do you assume that Jeter is a clutch player? I happen to think he’s a very good player who, predictably, plays very well when the game is on the line. Of course, merely stating that Jeter is clutch or Ortiz is clutch is merely to parrot what we see on news headlines. Where are the numbers? Do these players perform significantly better in “clutch” situations than they do otherwise? And, you avoided this part of my question, what’s an adequate sample size?

Am I a clutch hitter if I’m batting 1.000 in 5 at-bats with runners in scoring position and two outs? That seems like an inadequate number of at-bats to me. So what is it?

Perception doesn’t always match reality, that’s why I think we should appeal to qualitative data rather than parroting Pete van Wieren.

Francoeur, with runners in scoring position, is batting .310 this season.

Wow. That’s clutch. How many at-bats? 142. Not bad. How many hits? 44. But wait…let’s subtract 7 hits. That average becomes .261 (virtually identical to his season average of .260 in 538 at bats). Now, I don’t think luck can’t account for that 7 hit difference, or not all of it, at least. But I’d bet that, given another 142 at-bats, clutch hitter Francoeur will be hitting about .260 in those situations. I make this claim simply because I recognize the fine line between what you call “clutch” and what I call playing according to one’s potential. Right now, Francoeur is a .260 hitter, and given enough at bats he’ll be about a .260 hitter with RISP as well. Sorry.

Plus, maybe all those late inning, game winning hits wouldn’t be necessary if he’d get on base a few more times each game.

By Brad

August 31, 2006 01:19 AM | Link to this

I bet if you took hits away from every player, their batting average would drop. Bad argument. You say, take away some hits, and his average is bad. DUH! Did you think of that all by yourself? Yes, there such a thing as cluch hitting. When the game is on the line or its a situation where you almost have to get a hit, some players have trouble. They get too nervous and tend to hit worse. Francoeur playes better in these situations. So yes, there is a cluch hitter.

As for the closer thing, closers are very important. They are the ones pitching when the other team at all costs are trying to win the game. Teams typically have better seasons who have a good closer. Teams with a platoon closer job usually do worse.

By Brad in KY

August 31, 2006 01:26 AM | Link to this

GoTigers 72

First, please direct me to the post where someone questioned someone’s hustle or heart.

Second, although it’s nice to think that hustle and heart are all it takes, those things don’t mean anything if you don’t have talent.

Third, I’ve been arguing that Francoeur should be platooning in right field. This is entirely consistent with your claim that, following a typical progression, he would be in AA or AAA at this point. If you have a player in Francoeur’s situation, why not allow him an easier transition into the Bigs via platoon given his immaturity as a hitter.

Fourth, my arguing this does not entail that I’m not thankful neither for the Braves success on the field or in producing new talented young players. Your argument is a non sequitor.

Fifth, it’s a bit unfair to cast those who are “critical” of Francoeur on this thread into that lot who have previously been critical of Giles. Personally, I have posted numerous times in favor of Giles and I happen to think he’s one of the finest second baseman in baseball. On this thread, however, the discussion has predominantly concerned Francoeur.

By matt

August 31, 2006 01:30 AM | Link to this

Shaun,

It’s interesting that you say an average hitter would drive in more runs than Frenchy. Isn’t he tenth in the league in RBI’s? Are all the other hitters in the league that far below average?

By Brad in KY

August 31, 2006 01:45 AM | Link to this

Brad

Obviously, the point of the post was not simply to subtract hits. It was to illustrate how few are the number of hits that seperate a supposedly “clutch” hitter from an average hitter. In addition, it illustrates why sample size is important.

How do you know that “clutch” hitters get any more or less nervous than hitters that aren’t “clutch”?

Regarding the closers, it would be nice if you could actually provide at least one piece of evidence for your claim. Here’s an counter-example. The Braves won a lot of games in the 90’s without a consistently good closer.

Also, I’m a bit skeptical about the “win at all costs” claim you make concerning closers. It’s just not clear to me what you have in mind. I think teams try to win at every point throughout a ballgame. So what do you mean by “at all costs”?

So, I conclude that you are the one with the bad argument (in this case simply because you don’t substantiate your claim(s) - it’s just incomplete).

N.B. Technically speaking, arguments are said to be valid or invalid, sound or unsound, or, in the case of inductive arguments, weak or strong.

By Kingofqueens

August 31, 2006 02:13 AM | Link to this

Better enjoy this roll while you can Brave fans because you gotta come north next week to meet the team with the best record in baseball.

LETS GO METS!

By dmurph03

August 31, 2006 02:27 AM | Link to this

Have any of you “stat lawyers” actually sat down and just watched the game and enjoyed it? As a fan since ‘79 I’m so excited to watch this team play. This year has been difficult due to an injury depleted pitching staff but if you look at the guys on the team and their ages….we are going to have some great baseball to look forward to for the next 10 years. The Marlins are young and stacked and so are the Phillies and the Mets. The NL East could could end up being the toughest division in all of baseball next year. Think about Frenchy, mcCann, LaRoche, C. James, Davies, the young relievers who were hurt this year and our veterans and this is going to be a solid and productive group of guys. Look at next year’s possible pitching rotation. How can we not be enthused? Go Braves! Only 4 out and we have many games left with the teams that are above us. Anything can happen and that’s what makes it fun to turn on the game every night!

By Ron

August 31, 2006 07:26 AM | Link to this

Bring on the mutts…we’re ready for them this time…guarantee you it will be a much better series than last time

By Shaun Payne

August 31, 2006 07:56 AM | Link to this

It’s interesting that you say an average hitter would drive in more runs than Frenchy. Isn’t he tenth in the league in RBI’s? Are all the other hitters in the league that far below average?

Why is it so hard to understand that RBI are highly context-dependent? (Dependent on where a player hits in the lineup, who he hits behind, how often he is in the lineup, etc.)

See my previous posts. The best way to judge a player offensively is to look at his AVG/OBP/SLG and his plate appearances. Those are still somewhat context dependent (you still have to consider his home ballpark) but they are independent of the players hitting around him.

There are really only two ways to drive in a run, by driving in a player who gets on base and by driving yourself with a homerun. Doesn’t it follow that if you are in the lineup a lot and hit behind a lot of guys who get on base frequently (like Andruw, Chipper and McCann) that you are going to get a lot of RBI even if you make a lot of outs? Doesn’t it also follow that if you made fewer outs that you would drive in even more runs?

By Shaun Payne

August 31, 2006 08:08 AM | Link to this

You can quote all the stats you want, but stats that matter is that he plays with hustle and heart and does things to help his team. Whether that be hustling out a hit, throwing out a runner, etc. He also leads or is close to the lead in 2 out RBIs. That means clutch to those of you questioning that stat.

Hustle and heart only help if you also have talent and are ready to play at the major league level.

Two-out RBI doesn’t equal clutch. It means you came to the plate enough times with two outs and runners in scoring position and avoided making an out in those situations enough to drive those runners in. See my previous posts.

By SaltyDog55

August 31, 2006 08:17 AM | Link to this

This is just way too much ‘thinking’ for me to follow. Frenchy’s delivered with two outs, period. How many players have the number (or more) of PA’s he has, and driven in more (or close)? I’m not looking it up; I don’t care, but certainly someone will want to know.

Frenchy frustrates me, too, but it’s his first full season, I can live with it.
I applaud the post re: Murph, who used to be the same…and Andruw, and…now Frenchy? Baseball is still a marathon, not a ‘grass is greener’ constant weekly analysis. Sheesh…clearly I’ve had too much coffee…I’m venting!

By Shaun Payne

August 31, 2006 08:27 AM | Link to this

Francouer’s job responsibilities

To say Jeff Francouer’s job is to drive in runs as opposed to getting on base/avoiding outs is like saying John Smoltz’s job is to prevent runs not to get outs. You see, you can’t seperate the two. Francouer’s job is not to drive in runs, it’s to create runs and avoiding outs is a major part of creating runs.

To prevent runs, you have to get outs as quick as possible. To create runs, you have to avoid outs. The Braves are going to get 27 outs (in a 9-inning game) no matter what. If they get 27 outs with less baserunners allowed/more outs and more baserunners/less outs made (keep in mind that homeruns count as baserunners) than their opponents, they are going to win. This is why on-base percentage is the most telling stat—both offensively and defensively.

By Shaun Payne

August 31, 2006 08:36 AM | Link to this

SaltyDog55,

I’m sure a player with the same amount of plate appearances and hitting with the same amount of runners on base as Francouer but with a higher on-base/lower out percentage than Francouer, the other player would have more RBI. And it’s not hard to find a player with a higher on-base percentage/lower out percentage.

No one is trying to knock Francouer and no one dislikes him. It’s call objectivity. It’s something a lot of people are having a hard time with about Francouer. I’m sure if a player like Barry Bonds had a very low on-base/very high out percentage and high RBI total like Francouer, it would be easy to convince people that RBI is a vastly overrated stat.

By Shaun Payne

August 31, 2006 08:41 AM | Link to this

No one is trying to knock Francouer and no one dislikes him. It’s called objectivity. It’s something a lot of people are having a hard time with about Francouer. I’m sure if a player like Barry Bonds had a very low on-base/very high out percentage and high RBI total like Francouer, it would be easy to convince people that RBI is a vastly overrated stat. Here is the best article I’ve found on the subject:

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=2562

By Shaun Payne

August 31, 2006 08:54 AM | Link to this

There are really only two ways to drive in a run, by driving in a player who gets on base and by driving yourself with a homerun. Doesn’t it follow that if you are in the lineup everyday and hit behind a lot of guys who get on base frequently (like Andruw, Chipper and McCann) that you are going to get a lot of RBI even if you make a lot more outs than the average player? Doesn’t it also follow that if you made fewer outs that you would drive in even more runs and your team would be better off?

By h8-da-braves

August 31, 2006 09:15 AM | Link to this

Sorry brave fans. Reality is about to set in when you head north. I see a previous comment that said “Bring on the Mets”. Well be careful what you wish for. They’ve won 11 of 12. You may not want to be playing them right now……you might win one of three………LETS GO METS!!!!

By Shaun Payne

August 31, 2006 09:20 AM | Link to this

There are really only two ways to drive in a run, by driving in a player who gets on base and by driving yourself with a homerun. Doesn’t it follow that if you are in the lineup everyday and hit behind a lot of guys who get on base frequently (like Andruw, Chipper and McCann) that you are going to get a lot of RBI even if you make a lot more outs than the average player? Doesn’t it also follow that if you made fewer outs that you would drive in even more runs and your team would be better off? And how can you tell how many outs a player makes? By looking at his on-base percentage!
(1 - OBP = OUT PCT)

By Tommy

August 31, 2006 09:32 AM | Link to this

Shaun and Brad in KY: GIVE IT A REST ALREADY!!! Nobody really cares about your stats and analysys and you are definately in the minority on this one!

By Shaun Payne

August 31, 2006 09:45 AM | Link to this

Tommy,

Truth isn’t determined by consensus or by how much people care. You and people like you can keep denying and ignoring the fact that on-base/out percentage is important to run production, but the fact is that it is the most important single somewhat traditional stat. The evidence proves it and plain ol’ logic proves it.

By Ted

August 31, 2006 09:50 AM | Link to this

A) As for the winning streak - it is nice. But beating teams in the lower third of the NL (at home) is not a cause for printing playoff tickets - yet. It is a start but will mean nothing unless the Braves have success this weekend against the Phillies.

B) As for Francoeur - no one is stating to trade him. And while I would love for the Braves to have a better option, they don’t. But that doesn’t mean he is great or has no room for improvement. And at 22, he still has time. However, he MUST learn to take pitches and take walks. As others on this thread have said better than I, HR and RBI are not the end-all, be-all in stats. Yes, Frenchy has 91 RBI, but look at the fact that he bats behind Chipper (.407 OBP), Andruw (.361 OBP) and McCann (.396 OBP). OF COURSE he has good RBI numbers - he almost always comes up with men on base to drive in.

Conversely, LaRoche, who has a higher BA and SLG, has fewer RBI - in part b/c he bats behind Frenchy who is almost never on base.

Also, Frenchy has played in every game and has come to the plate more often than anyone else on the team. However, he is 6th on the team in terms of the number of times he’s actually gotten on base and he’s 6th on the team in runs scored. And for another fun correlation, 1st through 6th in terms of times on base for the Braves = 1st through 6th in terms of runs scored. Being able to drive in runs is good, but, for a team, you have to actually be on base to score runs - which is the name of the game offensively.

Another fact - in terms of batting title qualifiers in the NL, there are 88 players who currently qualify - Francoeur ranks 86th in OBP, behind such offensive stalwarts like Royce Clayton and Brad Ausmus. This does not mean he is worse than them overall, but, offensively, he is not a “great” player yet.

Also, in terms of clutch, various studies have shown that, over the course of their career, hitters generally bat the same regardless of the situation. And while it is nice that Francoeur has done well some of the time, he has also failed numerous times in “clutch” situations. His BA of .263 with RISP and 2 outs is close to his overall average of .260. He has delivered some big hits, that’s for sure, but compared to the number of times he’s delivered compared to the number of opportunities, it isn’t that suprising, since teams have walked AJ and/or McCann just to get to him since they know they have a better chance of getting an out from Francoeur than the other two.

Lastly, the founders of the game felt it was unfair to hitters to make them try and hit pitches outside of a certain area. Hence, the strike zone. However, Francoeur voluntarilly swings at pitches outside this zone repeatedly. While he has had “some” success (which happens when a round bat hits a round ball), he has had much better success when he hits pitches IN the strike zone. Forcing pitchers to throw him pitches in this zone will make him a better player. If that results in a few walks along the way, even better. Truly great hitters do not become great by trying to hit balls outside the strike zone repeatedly. And for all this talk about Guerrero, please note that he has never walked fewer than 42 times in a full season (and has walked at least 52 times in the last 7 years) and he has a career OBP that is 66 points higher than his career BA. Right now, Frenchy has an OBP only 28 points higher than his BA. Oh, and Guerrero has NEVER struck out 100 times in a season - Frenchy is already past that marker and counting.

Again, no one is saying Francouer sucks or that he should be traded. And he’s young enough to get better. But, if he doesn’t get better at controlling the strike zone, he will never be better than a “decent” hitter. As a comparison, look at Juan Samuel’s career track - not a bad player, but not a great one either. Francoeur can be better than that - but not until he learns to control the strike zone and start making fewer outs.

By Tommy

August 31, 2006 10:03 AM | Link to this

Listen guys, I am not arguing your stats nor their importance. All I am saying is that you have beaten this horse until is is way beyond dead. Let’s move on to something else! I happen to think that OBP, RBI’s, runs scored, avg. w/RISP, and others are all important stats and they are all interelated, at least to some extent. Do I think that Frenchy doesn’t need to improve his plate dicipline - NO. He needs to work very hard at recognizing the strike zone and peing more patient. However, enough is ENOUGH!

By Shaun Payne

August 31, 2006 10:06 AM | Link to this

Ted,

Well said. No one would want us to trade Francouer. He has a good shot at becoming a star. The only hole in his game is the inability to be selective at the plate which causes him to make too many outs. Once he learns to lay off pitches he can’t handle, he’ll be fine, and there’s a good chance he will. I know my eyes could be deceiving me, and I haven’t looked at the numbers, but it seems like he’s getting better at being selective this season.

By Shaun Payne

August 31, 2006 10:10 AM | Link to this

Tommy,

We feel like we have to keep going because people still make comments about Francouer’s RBI total and think that makes him a productive hitter. If you want to move on to something else, post something else. This is a public forum.

By SaltyDog55

August 31, 2006 10:47 AM | Link to this

Sorry, I’m with Tommy. True, it’s a public forum, but it sure feels dominated, which makes it not worth visiting. Take the high road, and not on the High Horse.

By SaltyDog55

August 31, 2006 10:49 AM | Link to this

Carolina Lady Stay safe, and dry.

By cityofdecatur

August 31, 2006 10:55 AM | Link to this

stats stats which are important which aren’t is anyone else sick of shaun’s pompous self important rants. Ask this who do u want at the plate with the game on the line. PS shaun take a hike and get a job.

By h8-da-braves

August 31, 2006 10:57 AM | Link to this

When the braves are done playing the Phillies and Mets, the fans will go back to their state of despair.

By LISTENING

August 31, 2006 10:57 AM | Link to this

Shaun and Brad in Ky. Salty Dog and Tommy said it best. shut up.

By Shaun Payne

August 31, 2006 11:00 AM | Link to this

SaltyDog55,

You have to understand where we’re coming from. We know the truth is RBI aren’t informative with concern to a player’s production. Others seem to want to ignore that truth, so we want to provide evidence and construct arguments that prove that RBI is virtually a meaningless stat.

We don’t think we’re smarter than anyone, but we just have payed attention to logic and reason and to people smarter than us that have provided plenty of evidence that most of the “Triple Crown” stats aren’t informative.

And this is exactly the right kind of forum to debunk some of the common baseball myths like a high RBI total = a productive player for instance.

By Shaun Payne

August 31, 2006 11:03 AM | Link to this

cityofdecatur,

With the game on the line I want Albert Pujols at the plate. Braves—I’ll take Chipper.

By Shaun Payne

August 31, 2006 11:04 AM | Link to this

Tired of my rants. Here’s someone a lot smarter than me who gets it:

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=2562&mode=print&nocache=1157036942

By Shaun Payne

August 31, 2006 11:06 AM | Link to this

We don’t think we’re smarter than anyone, but we just have payed attention to logic and reason and to people smarter than us that have provided plenty of evidence showing that the “Triple Crown” stats aren’t informative.

We know the truth is RBI aren’t informative with concern to a player’s production. Others seem to want to ignore that truth, so we want to provide evidence and construct arguments that prove that RBI is virtually a meaningless stat.

And this is exactly the right kind of forum to debunk some of the common baseball myths like a high RBI total = a productive player for instance.

By Jeff

August 31, 2006 11:11 AM | Link to this

Too many teams ahead of the Bravos. The chance that all those teams will cool off, or that the Braves will play something on the order of .700 plus ball the rest of the way, is improbable.

But I hope they pull a rabbitt of the hat.

By Shaun Payne

August 31, 2006 11:12 AM | Link to this

I’m basically just regurgitating the truth discovered by the hard work of other people who are smarter than me. The writers of the the Baseball Between the Numbers, for instance.

By LISTENING

August 31, 2006 11:12 AM | Link to this

They wont shutup so I’ll leave the “Shaun and Brad in Ky” Blog now and take a look at Guy Cutrights respondents words of real wisdom.

By Shaun Payne

August 31, 2006 11:13 AM | Link to this

I’m basically just regurgitating the truth discovered by the hard work of other people who are smarter than me. The writers of the book Baseball Between the Numbers, for instance.

By SaltyDog55

August 31, 2006 11:16 AM | Link to this

Shaun I’ve no quarrel with your position…it’s yours. It simply feels like it’s being rammed down everyones’ throats, that’s all. You’re passionate in your views…that I like.

By Alex

August 31, 2006 11:19 AM | Link to this

I see that the Braves little winning streak has the mutts fans worried a little…that’s how they show their insecurity…they come in here and try to sound all confident and cocky about it…talking trash days before the two teams play each other.

Let’s hope that John Smoltz can help sweep the Giants and Barroid out of town. Don’t want to look ahead, let’s take one game at a time just like the team is doing right now.

I don’t care about the Mets and Phils and Marlins. I care about the game today against the Giants.

The people with the stats…you almost killed this blog…key words…almost

By Shaun Payne

August 31, 2006 11:21 AM | Link to this

Salty Dog,

Yeah. I’m not trying to ram any views down anyone’s throat. I’m just trying to bring the truth. And so many people rely on the triple crown stats, which are virtually meaningless. I guess it’s my newest baseball pet peeve.

By KC

August 31, 2006 11:33 AM | Link to this

Do the Braves have a shot at the Wild Card? Definitely.

Here are the (real) Wild Card threats to the Braves chances:

1 – Houston: They’re hot right now because (with the exception of their 1-0 victory last night) their bats have heated up of late. Prior to their last game, the Astros had scored 7.5 runs per game over a 6 game stretch. That won’t continue. This is a weak hitting team, and I’m not sure they can generate enough offense to play .650-.700 baseball the rest of the way. But you never know. I certainly wouldn’t take them lightly.

2 – Philadelphia: Amazingly, they are hitting much better without Abreu than they were with him. The Phillies are scoring runs at an impressive clip. The way their playing, they’ve certainly got to be considered one of the top threats to win the WC, but once again, I’m not sure the pitching is there to carry them the rest of the way.

3 - San Diego: This is also a relatively weak hitting team. They struggle to score runs for the most part, and don’t have the starting pitching of teams like the Astros and Braves. I don’t think they have what it takes to stay atop the Wild Card standings for long.

4 - Florida: Gerardi has done an amazing job with these kids. In the end, I think they’re a mediocre offensive team, and an obviously inexperienced team. They’re good, but I think there are a few teams that are better in this WC chase.

5 – Cincinnati They simply don’t have the pitching to pull this out. Aroyo and Harang have had good seasons, but that’s not going to be enough to get it done.

Since the All-star break, the Braves have led the NL in team batting average at .281, and are second only the Phillies in runs scored since the break. They’ve been a good hitting team all year. The difference now is that Tim Hudson and C.James are coming through for us. Even Villareal chipped in two great starts. If Kyle Davies can give this rotation a lift, and my gut feeling (for whatever it’s worth) is that he will… Atlanta’s starting pitching will be as good as any in the league (rivaled only by the Astros).

If the Braves can overcome their weakness in the middle relief department for another week or two until Baez returns, I think we’ll be fine. Even with Baez, the Braves still lack depth in the bullpen, but they should have enough to get by as long as the starters are doing their jobs. If we’re got starters giving us 6-7 strong innings most of the time, and then Baez and Wickman for the 8th/9th innings… the Braves can continue to win even with thin middle relief. Especially when the offense is scoring runs.

In the end, I think the Braves starting pitching is as good as any in the league. The offense and defense are as good as any, and we’re solid at the end of the game with Wickman and Baez (when he returns). Provided that the Braves continue to perform as they are capable, and we don’t have any more significant injuries… I think the Braves have what it takes to pass a pack of competitors with far more glaring weaknesses.

By KC

August 31, 2006 11:45 AM | Link to this

Keep in mind also that while we’re 4 games out overall… we’re only 3 back in the loss column, and that’s what you have to look at in a pennant or WC race.

By horacio

August 31, 2006 12:03 PM | Link to this

Great game last night. Chuck James looks a lot like the Tom Glavine son or cousin or any Glavine relative, you name it. Working on the corner stuff. This kid is gonna be superb next year. Today we have Smoltz on, so we are gonna sweep SanFran and the clown how plays left field. Right now the best team in the WC hunt are in our division: Florida and Philadelphia. So we need to get quickly at 500 and then keep the pace with these two. Our lineup is one of the best in NL and the starting pitcher would be above OK with John, Chuck and former Cy Young Hudson, we just need Horacio or Hampton back. And move Thompson to middle relief, Paronto will get the set-up role for Wickman. We are gonna be contending next year for sure with Laroche batting batting up. Bobby Cox is the best manager we ever be lucky to have and he’s doing wonderful with the poor pitching that he got.

By Spider29

August 31, 2006 12:34 PM | Link to this

Good game last night, solid pitching, great defense by Andruw, unbelievable hitting by Adam. A huge win. Now, I’ll admit I haven’t had time yet to read all the posts and I didn’t watch Sportscenter. My question is was Andruw’s catch an ESPN “web gem”? They seem to show everybody but him (or any Brave) but they loved showing AJ falling down a couple of nights ago. Go Smoltz and Go Braves!

By realistgrod

August 31, 2006 12:36 PM | Link to this

Hey KC, Evan, bravesfan and all you bandwagon jumpers out there. It sounds like you are all on the bandwagon again. You all had the Braves dead and burried about a week ago. I am keeping them 6 feet under. They are done and were done months ago. They are just messing with you guys! Wake up. This team is inconsistent, the starting pitching sucks and the bullpen is iffy at best - except for Wickman. The Giants and the Nationals SUCK that is not a real test. They should finish the sweep with Smoltz on the mound. They will be playing real teams soon. Do not be luled into a false sense of security. STOP CRYING ABOUT ESPN! The Braves shouldn’t even be mentioned on ESPN. Stop whining and get real. Please, focus on rebuilding that pitching staff for next year. The Mets starting pitching Glavine, Pedro, El Duque, Traschel) is old, The Phillies have no pitching - period. The Nationals - well enough said. That leaves the Marlins as the only real competition for the next 3 years or so. Then the fire sale will begin again. Focus on the future -this year there will be NO PLAYOFFS. Let’s try not to finish in last place.

By h8-da-braves

August 31, 2006 12:46 PM | Link to this

Alex, I hate to ruin your wet dream. But the Met fans aren’t nervous about the braves. They have a strangle hold on the division and the best record in the Majors…..Sorry Alex, no quivers here.

By Bobcatjoe

August 31, 2006 12:56 PM | Link to this

MY Goodness. You Braves fans are pathetic. A little 4 game win streak at home against some sorry teams and you are talking playoffs? Playoffs? Are you joking? What exactly are the Braves going to do in the playoffs - if they make it? Crash and burn baby - just like they do every year. I hope they make the playoffs just so that I can enjoy seeing the self destruction - again. A thorough A…whipping from the Dodgers Cardinals, Mets or anyone for that matter would be Oh so sweet. Bye Bye Braves fans - Your run is FINALLY over. Tomahawk chop this! HA HA HA.

By KC

August 31, 2006 01:00 PM | Link to this

realistgrod:

“let’s try not to finish in last place”

You either need to get a grip on reality or change your name. I don’t care which.

By realistgrod

August 31, 2006 01:10 PM | Link to this

KC - Last time I checked - only the Nationals were standing between the Braves and the cellar. Check it out.

By KC

August 31, 2006 01:15 PM | Link to this

realistgrod:

There’s not a snowball’s chance in hell that the Braves are going to finish in the cellar, and you know it. If you don’t know it… I’d be happy to participate in a friendly wager on that point.

By h8-da-braves

August 31, 2006 01:26 PM | Link to this

Thank goodness for the Nationals. Or they’d be building snowmen in hell I guess.

By Bobcatjoe

August 31, 2006 01:28 PM | Link to this

AMEN to that Realistgrod. I don’t really know if you are a Braves fan or not. If you are you are one of the few with common sense. Four home victories in a row does not a hot team make. The headline is way over the top. KC is too quick to point out waeknesses in other teams vying for the Wild Card - yet he fails to discuss the obvious Braves weaknesses. Weak starting pitching - (except for Smoltz), mediocre bullpen (where is Leo Mazzone?), no second baseman, weak and incosistent production from the corner outfielders, weak bench (where is Julio Franco?, an injury prone third baseman, and a power hitting centerfielder who doesn’t show up consistently and has huge holes in his swing. Laroche and McCann are good ball players but young and inexperienced. That leaves Renteria. Sorry KC didn’t mean to burst your bubble. All the teams you mentioned have weaknesses, but I would take any of them over your sorry A$$$ Braves. Even the Marlins with their youth. I would take their starting pitching over the Braves any day of the week.

By beachcomber

August 31, 2006 01:30 PM | Link to this

Thank you fellow bloggers for standing watch over our victory last night. A work related issue pulled me away at 2-2. So forgive me while I savor the victory some 15 hours after it happened. Those of you in ATL, bring your brooms to the park. My job here in Florida involves working with Phillies personnel, they KNOW how important this weekend is for them. They don’t fear the rest of their schedule nearly as much as their dates left with the Bravos.

By realistgrod

August 31, 2006 01:36 PM | Link to this

KC: The Braves should not finish in last place. If they do Bobby needs to be fired. But just the mere fact that we are discussing whether or not the Braves might finish last in the division says a lot about the pathetic current state of affairs in Atlanta this year. Let’s see how they do against the Phillies and Mets. My feeling is they will inching closer to that cellar by the end of next week.

By KC

August 31, 2006 01:37 PM | Link to this

BTW: Grod… I never burried the Braves. I have been optimistic about their chances almost the entire way.

The only time I really depaired was after the Pirates series. But since then, we learned that the reason for losing that series (Danny Baez’s meltdown in the 8th inning of the 2nd game) was the result of a health issue that was since taken care of. We should have him back in a week or two.

If Davies is half way decent in his return, the Braves will have as good a starting rotation as there is in the NL. When Baez comes back, we’ll be very solid in the 8th and 9th innings. And both our offense and defense are already as good as any in the league. Not only is there zero chance of the Braves finishing in the cellar, but there is a very reall chance of the BRaves winning the Wild Card.

By realistgrod

August 31, 2006 01:40 PM | Link to this

KC: Hope you are prophetic. Good Luck!

By Bravesfan

August 31, 2006 01:45 PM | Link to this

How is it that The Phillies can get a Jeff Conine this late in the year and we don’t do squat. He would have looked awfully good in a Braves uniform out in left field. Good job JS!

By h8-da-braves

August 31, 2006 01:48 PM | Link to this

Too many IF’S…….

By bfred

August 31, 2006 03:59 PM | Link to this

Conine?! Can’t we get someone bounced for a comment like that? Conine’s line this year - .265 BA, 9 HR, 49 RBI, .329 OBP. Oh yeah, and a slow 40 years old. Give me a break. Offensive production is not the Braves’ problem, and they have the veteran leadership they need. The problem has been an injury-plagued starting rotation and (until recently) ineffective bullpen.

Glad we’re off the meaningful stats conversation, though. Great, someone read Moneyball. Good for them.

By Barbara G

August 31, 2006 04:49 PM | Link to this

I love the Braves and good or bad they have my full support. Seems like everyone is counting them out but I still have faith they will pull it out and make the playoffs. Even with all the injuries and players playing hurt they have been exceptional. Hopefully Time Warner will sell them and the next owner will spend the money for players John and Bobby need. GO BRAVES