ajcsportstalk

By bobbo

August 16, 2006 10:04 PM | Link to this

Once again Bobby went with the double AA lineup. Langerhans and pratt, i understand giving mcann a night off he needs one every once and awhile but why in a game when your without andruw as well. Smoltzie got rocked but oh well we tried to battle back and had the chance to win one until “The Bullpen ” struck again, at this point im done blaming the bullpen Im putting this sqaurely on JS’S shoulders this guy took a major league baseball team into a season wiith a bunch of guys in the bullpen with no business being there, none of these guys are good enough the end. JS gave this team no chance to win form the get go this year by tying up half our limited payroll into four players

By Ron Roberts

August 16, 2006 10:12 PM | Link to this

We score SIX runs, give up NINE, and we wanna complain about the batting lineup?

I’ve been saying this since HoRam went down, folks…

…no way…. no how… no pitching.

Start calling up Richmond arms (the few that are there that are worthy) and let’s figure out what we got. I’m the biggest optimistic Braves fan there is, but when a team can’t win at home against teams that traded off parts to regroup for another season… can’t beat a AAA squad wearing Marlins uniforms… can’t beat a Nationals team that’s admittedly going with a youth movement for the future and not now……

…this team ain’t ready for playoffs, let alone primetime.

This has nothing to do with Bobby Cox’s managerial style, and everything to do with ineffective bullpen pitching, injuries and ineffectiveness in our starting pitching (except for Smoltz, who, unlike tonight usually holds down the fort), and a stubborn general manager who doesn’t care to admit his flawed work until it’s too late to do anything to improve upon it.

Now, sit back and watch as the wild card race shakes down to Los Angeles/San Diego, (whomever doesn’t win the west) and Houston/Cincinatti/St.Louis (whomever places 2nd in the central). Hell, throw in the Phillies and Marlins for that matter… they have better shots than we do, at this rate.

My God…. when’s kickoff?

By Don

August 16, 2006 10:15 PM | Link to this

Once again, the Braves have too many “players” who really shoould be sitting behind a desk like me doing blue/white collar work rather than donning a uniform.

Tonight, “Old Reliable” wasn’t so reliable, “Death” Ray shot another self-inflicted would, and the top of the order went 1-15. Giles is a failure in lead off and Rentaria is now taking his turn in the slump mobile.

Man, I hope we don’t sit on our hands in the off season and expect those mediocre injured players (Ramirez, Hampton, Boyer, Foster, Davies among them) to make the difference next year.

By Shaun Payne

August 16, 2006 10:16 PM | Link to this

The Braves are running out of games and running out of John Smoltz starts. The talent is not quite their this season. We’ll see if Schuerholz can turn a couple of players into five or six talented guys.

By Jay

August 16, 2006 10:18 PM | Link to this

Please, no more about a wild-card berth.

Smoltz is entitled to one off-night per every 10 starts. He should have 15+ wins this season. The offense doesn’t pick him up and the bullpen just flat screws him.

We have little situational hitting and no plate discipline. The opportunities were there again, with men in scoring position with less than 2 outs. We can’t beat Astacio (is he still in the league?) and Traber (who?)in vital games. Why does anyone think we’re going to the playoffs (which feature talented players)?

By Shaun Payne

August 16, 2006 10:25 PM | Link to this

According to Baseball Prospectus Jeff Francouer is about 5-1/2 runs worse offensively than a fringe rightfielder.

He’s made about 50 more outs than Andruw in only about 10 more plate appearances.

By harvey meinen

August 16, 2006 10:26 PM | Link to this

we lose again tomorrow with vallarreal and sunday if we can pitch comier hestinks but cox again claims he didnt pitch that dad last time out.
bring lewrew or harrison please dont pitch ray,yates,paronto we send thorman down and keep no hit langerhans bring up pena get rid of pratt put hudson on waivers

By Todd A

August 16, 2006 10:27 PM | Link to this

Can we just finally stop with all the wildcard nonsense now?What is it going to take to convince some of you folks that this team is simply dead in the water with this pitching staff?Should’ve been sellers instead of buyers at the break.

By Beachcomber

August 16, 2006 10:28 PM | Link to this

I believe Cy Young got lit up occasionally. And mediocre pitchers don’t win 22 games in a season. Point about going into war this year unarmed (bullpen) well taken. Good night Gracie.

By dfree

August 16, 2006 10:34 PM | Link to this

G******* BULLPEN!!!!

By Jay

August 16, 2006 10:34 PM | Link to this

Nobody’s calling Smoltz mediocre, he deserves to be in Cooperstown if he retires today. But after next year, he will have reached the point of diminishing returns.

By Jay

August 16, 2006 10:39 PM | Link to this

Good thinking Harvey, I’m sure Tim Hudson would command top talent if put him on waivers. We’d probably get Pujols and Big Papi.

By Greg

August 16, 2006 10:44 PM | Link to this

This loss goes to show you that the Braves can’t hit and play like an American league team every night. The Braves can’t expect Smoltz to shut the opponent down or keep the Braves in 100% of the time. Like I said before, Hudson needs to step it up and there needs to be consistent effort every time Cox puts relievers in. I am not a Bobby Cox basher, but he maybe should have take Ray out and put in a lefty against Schneider and maybe the results would have been different. I don’t expect much of a good outing by Villareal and the Braves probably will struggle again.If they lose tomorrow, I dread them facing the Marlins who can be pesky. I hate to say it, but this but the way this road trip is going it maybe the nail in the coffin for the Braves!!! I somehow forsee them be double digits below .500 and behind in the wild card leader.

By Young

August 16, 2006 10:48 PM | Link to this

Do not worry. The Braves will win the division by next week. The Braves will be the first team ever to win 40 games in 4 days and the Mets will be the first team to lost 50 games in three days. The Braves will end the season with 180 wins and will the hold the Major League record for the most wins in a single season and the record will never be broken because the other teams can only play 162 games . Do not worry, are these the best news you have ever heard?

By Jay

August 16, 2006 10:49 PM | Link to this

77-85.

By Todd A

August 16, 2006 10:50 PM | Link to this

Don,Schuerholz won’t admit to a flawed body of work at the end of the season.Not going to happen.He’ll say this team was constructed to win a championship,but was undone by injuries to the starting rotation and bullpen.Get ready for the spin machine.

By Young

August 16, 2006 10:53 PM | Link to this

Do not worry. The Braves will win the division by next week. The Braves will be the first team ever to win 40 games in 4 days and the Mets will be the first team to lose 50 games in three days. The Braves will end the season with 180 wins and will hold the Major League record for the most wins in a single season and the record will never be broken because the other teams can only play 162 games . Do not worry, are these the best news you have ever heard?

By Todd A

August 16, 2006 10:55 PM | Link to this

They’ll still lose in the first round of the playoffs.:)

By Young

August 16, 2006 11:02 PM | Link to this

This team was constructed to win a championship, but was undone by injuries to the starting rotation and bullpen. Are you telling me that the Braves did not win those divisions starting back in 1991 because other teams had injuries and the Braves did not, please injuries is the lamest, oldest, stickiest and dumbest excuse I have ever heard from Todd A.

By Glen

August 16, 2006 11:08 PM | Link to this

Hey guys!! lets stick a fork in the Braves they are done. Im a very optimistic Braves fan, but lets face it…its over. Anyone who thinks this team will go to the post season hasnt been payingt much attention this season. Sooo how bout them Falcons ???

By gotigers72

August 16, 2006 11:08 PM | Link to this

1991 - Worst to first. 2006 - First to worst. Looks like the Nats will catch them.

You can blame the position players all you want, but it ain’t them. Pitiful pitching all year. JS needs to do something before 2007 or it will be the same way next year. Too many pitchers that don’t belong in the majors, including the 2 we got in the Estrada deal.

By Young

August 16, 2006 11:11 PM | Link to this

This team was constructed to win championships, but was undone by injuries to the starting rotation and bullpen. Are you telling me that the Braves should not have won those divisions starting back in 1991 because other teams had injuries and the Braves did not? Please save your bad breath Todd A, injuries is the lamest, oldest, stickiest and dumbest excuse I have ever heard.

By Young

August 16, 2006 11:17 PM | Link to this

Falcons will be the first team with a perfect record with a sixteen games season 0-16. As long as they have Vick we will be Sick, other words Vick is Sick.

By Todd A

August 16, 2006 11:18 PM | Link to this

Young…just taking a stab here,but I’m guessing reading comprehension isn’t one of your strengths(assuming you have any)?

By Head Coach

August 16, 2006 11:22 PM | Link to this

Anybody got a match ? I have a five gallon gas can and it’s full , let’s burn the bandwagon. O yea , I’m all out of beer can’s to throw at the TV.

By Young

August 16, 2006 11:23 PM | Link to this

No, Miss Todd A, but you are what you write, good day!

By TommyA

August 16, 2006 11:29 PM | Link to this

Ron: These ARE “Richmond arms”…The future looks bleak.

Can’t blame Smoltz, it’s gonna take more than just one starter to save this team and even he can’t win them all.

Why do I continue to watch????????

By jdog

August 16, 2006 11:37 PM | Link to this

Im ready for kickoff.I agree about Michael Sick I mean vick.Im actually ready for some Bulldogs as well.I am just so sick of baseball this yr.It has certainly been tainted with nothing but a bunch of steriods.As bill parcells has put it “that topic has become kind of redundant.” about TO ofcourse who else.And come on Matt Lenairt and Reggie Bush…how much money do you really need?

By jdog

August 16, 2006 11:38 PM | Link to this

Braves suck bring on the DAWGSSSS

By jdog

August 16, 2006 11:39 PM | Link to this

Braves suck bring on the DAWGSSSS

By nathan

August 16, 2006 11:43 PM | Link to this

By Shaun Payne

According to Baseball Prospectus Jeff Francouer is about 5-1/2 runs worse offensively than a fringe rightfielder.

He’s made about 50 more outs than Andruw in only about 10 more plate appearances.

THE LAST TIME I CHECKED, HE’S 22!!!!! AND HE MAKES, OH LET ME CALCULATE IT OUT, ABOUT 13 MILLION LESS THAN ANDRUW.

So I guess all we got to do is find another 13 million dollars, and we can buy the team “50 less” outs.

Sounds like a good investment to me.

Listen until last year, Andruw probably fell into the same category as Francoeur offensively. 30 HR’s, 90-100 RBI, and a LOT of K’s! But everybody put up with the HIGH SALARY because of his defense. Well if y’all don’t notice, Francoeur plays a DAMN GOOD RF! Tons of assists (leads the majors since he’s been called up). Everybody talks about how many runs Andruw saves with his defense. You don’t always have to catch a ball for an out to “save runs”. How many runs a game do you think Francoeur saves a game, just by teams not running from 1st to 3rd on him? With this pitching staff, we need all the defense we can get at this point.

I’ll reiterate……..HE’S 22!!!

If his plate discipline is still this bad when he’s 28 (the age that Andruw had his “breakout” season), then get back to me. Until then lay off the kid. I’d take Francoeur “in the lineup everyday” learning the game, over Chipper’s incredible talent, that’s never on the field for more than 2 weeks at a time.

I’m not saying that in 10 years people are going to be talking about Francoeur being a 1st balot HOF’r. But you know what? Dale Murphy put up about the same kind of numbers (.260something career hitter with 398 HR’s), didn’t make the HOF and probably never will. Yet people still talk about him like he’s the greatest Brave of all time. Don’t get me wrong, I LOVE DALE MURPHY, he was my favorite player growing up, and the player that I will always compare the new stars to. But even Murphy took about 6 years in the majors to become the player he did. And he never became a great average hitter. I wake up in cold sweats to the vision of him lunging at a low and outside slider! LOL! But I still love him.

Francoeur has the chance to be a GREAT HR hitter in the middle of this lineup for a long time. His plate discipline will determine where in the line up he hits those HR’s from. If he learns some, he’ll probably bat Clean-up or 5th. If he’s still a strikeout machine after 2 or 3 more years. He’ll be destined to be a 6 or 7 hole hitter for his career. McCann on the other hand was BORN to bat 3rd, even thought as DOB stated a couple of months ago that Bobby would never do that in fear of “clogging” up the bases with catcher’s speed. Yeah! Because a) we run so much somebody might “lap” him on the bases. and b) We have so many other good hitters to bat behind him, it would EVER be an issue! PUT YOUR BEST HITTER IN THE 3-HOLE! MCCANN IS THE BEST “HITTER” THIS TEAM HAS HAD IN THE LAST 15 YEARS! He knows what he’s doing up there. How in the world did Mike Piazza survive all those years hitting 3rd or 4th? Man, I bet those managers wished they hadn’t “clogged” up the bases! LOL!

Better to clog up the bases with a catcher who can DRIVE IN RUNS. Then to clog up the bases with baserunners that get “stranded” because nobody in the lineup can knock them in!

I’M DONE! Goodnight!

By Jay

August 16, 2006 11:54 PM | Link to this

2007 projections (best case):

Smoltz: 15-11 3.76 Hampton: 14-13 4.11 Hudson: 12-14 4.46 Ramirez: 10-11 4.76 Davies: 12-10 4.81

Another playoff miss. Tell me how I’m wrong.

By nathan

August 16, 2006 11:59 PM | Link to this

jay

You’re not.

By jeff p

August 17, 2006 12:08 AM | Link to this

This year has been too surreal. Takes me back to those years most fans of this generation don’t remember when the Braves were a bad baseball team. Let’s face it, the bad picthing caught up with this team this year. I would be willing to bet stat wise, the offensive is probably as good as any team in the 15-yr run. Still gotta figure out how to instill discipline and quality at bats for this team like the Yanks, White Sox, BoSox, Mets (the true elite teams this year).

All we need is a leadoff hitter and I still think the lineup is very solid barring any injuries next year:

Lineup LF Speedster (whoever we can get - Crawford, etc.) Giles (if they can afford him) Renteria (if they can’t sign Giles) Chipper (hope he can stay healthy) Andruw (hope he can stay healthy) McCann (hard to believe he is 21 yrs old - he is way beyond his years and batters on the team could take notes on how to approach an at-bat) LaRoche (you have to belive he will only get better, defensively is as good as it gets) Francouer (remember he is also 21 or so and still probably would be “a year away” if the Braves had extra money to spend on a seasoned veteran) Renteria/Aybar Pitcher

Speed at the top of the order is key - just look at Reyes and the Mets this year.

Go out and get two proven starters because you can’t trust Hampton (health) and Hudson (????). Hopefully, you can fill in the back part of rotation with James/Davies/HoRamirez.

Blow up the bullpen and try to re-sign Baez and Wickman. Try and get again two proven middle relief pitchers and then fill in the rest of the cast of AAA wannabies.

Again, this season has been lost due to pitching, plain and simple. Early in the year it was the bullpen blowing 20 save chances (where would the Braves be if they saved 75% of these - in the wildcard lead of course). Now the starting rotation is in shambles. Are we really serious in thinking we can win 7-8 games in a row when you have to throw the likes of Shiell, Cormier, Villareal, Barry, etc. There is a reason these guyes have stayed in the minors, just don’t have the talent.

And finally, don’t blame Bobby Cox, JS, etc. on this. The cycle finally caught up with this franchise and because it doesn’t have the fiscal power it once had, reality has set in.

As old neighbor of Biff Pocaroba and a true fan that sat in Fulton County Stadium as a kid and teenager when there were literally 1,000 people in the stands, this year maybe will put in perspective how great this team has been for the last 15 years. Yes, it would be nice to have a few more WS titles (again bullpen - Reardon, Wohlers blew those chances), but the excellence of play by this franchise is unmatched and will always be remembered and respected by the true fans, players and organizations who really know the game.

Would hope to see this team at least try to finish at .500 and look towards a fresh start next year.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

August 17, 2006 12:08 AM | Link to this

I think Francoeur’s lack of patience has to be directly linked to Cox and TP. It is very obvious they aren’t correcting him. They don’t want to “alter his aggressivness”. Well, surely there is a way to allow him to be aggressive without being wild and stupid. I don’t think they are telling Frenchy to be patient and he is ignoring the advice. He has started every game and played all but four innings. So, obviously he is not some hardhead selfish kid. And like Nathan said he is only 22. Besides he is not alone in swinging away at every pitch. Andruw can be just as bad; he just takes more walks.

This season is over. Tonight proved that. Its more than the pitching. This team has no heart. These guys need to look in the mirror and really reflect on their performances. The only exceptions are Smoltz, Chipper, Diaz, and McCann. Even Renteria has went up and just swung away at the first pitch. Good teams get the job done when a must win game comes up. Time after time this team has failed to do that.

Please call the kids up, shoot this horse, and let it die with some sort of dignity. There isn’t much left.

By Jay

August 17, 2006 12:12 AM | Link to this

Francouer is especially disturbing, in that he seems to take pride in his inabiliy to take pitches (aka: have an intelligent at bat). He acts like swinging at balls is some kind of wacky personality quirk. I’m tired of his bullsh@t at bats. Don’t we employ a hitting coach?

By Brad

August 17, 2006 12:26 AM | Link to this

Why is everybody still bashing Hudson? Everybody says he has been bad the whole time he has been with us. He was 14-9 with a 3.52 era last year. This year has been rough, 9-10 with a 4.94 era. But his last two outings have been much better, 13.2 innings, 3ER, 1-0 record, and the Braves won both games. I know he hasn’t been our “ace” like he was labeled to be. I’m sure he will be back to form next year. His last two game he has displayed much better in his pitching form.

By nathan

August 17, 2006 12:30 AM | Link to this

jeff p

All good point. I can live with all but one of your assesments (sp?):

Yes, it would be nice to have a few more WS titles (again bullpen - Reardon, Wohlers blew those chances)

I would like people to stop blaming Wohlers for the 1996 World Series “choke job”

HIS YEAR HE HAD IN 1995- HALF OF A YEAR, I GUESS - IS THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IN ALL OF THE CHOKE JOBS FROM BEFORE AND AFTER THAT SEASON

If Denny Neagle would have actually been able to hold a 6-0 lead in that game that Lyritz hit the hanging slider out, we wouldn’t be talking about Wohlers blowing the World series. In Atlanta Braves “post season history books” it is very similar to Bucknor’s play in Boston. Yes, it’s the highlight that gets played the most, thus making everybody assume “it” blew the game. Some games are lost way before the 9th inning. It’s just that if a game is lost IN the 9th inning that’s when you assume it was LOST…….try and keep up! :-) Back to Bucknor, there were many plays that led up to that play that could’ve helped him (and them) be in the situation that unfolded. Does he derserve some blame for not making the play? Yes, as does Wohlers for hanging the slider. BUT HE DOESN’T DESERVE ALL OF THE BLAME!

Sorry, I just figure rather than RIPPING on Mark Wohlers, we should all extend one big THANK YOU to him, for being there BIG TIME in the season that we actually won the World Series. A little tacky, sure, but the right thing to do? ABSOLUTELY!

By Jay

August 17, 2006 12:30 AM | Link to this

Yeah, 9-10 with a 4.94 era. That really shut me up with my criticism. I expect more than 2 decent games from an “elite” pitcher who is paid out the a*s.

By nathan

August 17, 2006 12:34 AM | Link to this

jay

You took the words right out of my mouth. I actually had to stop myself from going off about Oscar starting a game. Until I realized that his ERA is actually lower than Hudson’s is. Maybe Bobby should’ve moved him to the rotation in May! LOL

By Jay

August 17, 2006 12:47 AM | Link to this

Jeff P.: are you Mark Wohlers by any chance? How bout concentrating on the problem(s) at hand. BTW, Wohlers sucked by any objective standard.

By Doug

August 17, 2006 12:58 AM | Link to this

I have no beef with Smoltz … the man is a star. He has a proven record which shows he was just having a bad night. I really don’t have much of an issue with Ray either. He is the only one in the bullpen that has performed to even a mediocre level (minus Wickman - who like Smoltz is a winner, but we have to actually be IN a position to use our closer).

The issue here is fundamentals. They just need to wrap the season by winning as many games as they can and spend the entire off season on working fundamentals. Teach Francoeur what a strike zone is. Dews and McDowell need to work the arms off of the bullpen and teach those kids how to keep the ball down.

By Jay

August 17, 2006 01:18 AM | Link to this

Doug, I nominate you for assistant manager.

By Train Wreck Bystander

August 17, 2006 03:49 AM | Link to this

Believe it or not, the Braves will be playing in October. I guarantee it.

Unfortunately, it will only be the final game of the regular season, against Houston.

Smoltzie is entitled to a bad night every once in a while, so I am not too worried about Wednesday’s stinker. Some will blame the bullpen, but hey, Smoltzie gave up twice as many as the pen, didn’t he?

As for the fan who wants to call up the Richmond arms to see what we have… where have you been all season?

If this team crawls back to .500 before the season’s end, that will be a major accomplishment.

By 2realistic

August 17, 2006 06:41 AM | Link to this

I’ve been watching the braves since I was a kid (which is over 30 years.) But I’ve finally gotten to the point where I can’t watch any longer. The Braves are just plain awful and fans everywhere are starting to smell the FUNK they’re in.

At least football season’s about to start! Go Falcons and Go Dawgs!

By daxxed

August 17, 2006 07:17 AM | Link to this

Like I said a few times, where would we be in the standings if Smoltz would have stepped up and reclaimed the closers position after the 5th blown save. We still could have gotten Wickman, but we could be in contention, and second mention. I blame Smoltz, the I’ll do what it takes man, that did not step up when it was needed.

By Cornholio

August 17, 2006 07:22 AM | Link to this

Davies & Devine should look sharp in AA. They are AA pitchers at best !!

How can anyone defend Tim Hudson’s overall (2005-06) performance in Atlanta ? He’s average at best, with an occasional flash of brilliance. He’s in line with John Thomson and Horacio Ramirez. He came here & was expected to be the next “ace”. The return on the investment is not there. If Hudson were a stock, its time to SELL !

By Paultb

August 17, 2006 07:31 AM | Link to this

There is nothing special about this team.

Fix the bullpen and you will quickly realize that thet starting pitching, the defense and the hitting are all very very average. I don’t know where we get off with all the playoff talk. We won’t finish above 500.

I would still watch every inning if they all had the fire in their belly that Smotz does. But the yawning indifference of some of these guys has the stands empty and the tv viewer reaching for the remote.

By Ron Roberts

August 17, 2006 07:53 AM | Link to this

I disagree… fix the bullpen and the starting pitching without messing with the offense, and this is easily the most complete team in the National League.

I think they’re close with the bullpen, but inconcsistency in the rotation (right now, anyhow) leave fans, Schuerholz and pundits to wonder what this squad would be like next year.

Questions like…

A lot of what Schuerholz needs to know will be answered by the continued play of Tim Hudson and Chuck James through the season, frankly. If these two hold form (of late) and pitch well, there’s plenty to be excited about in 2007. While almost every other team in baseball will be out there playing the hot stove league game, picking up free agents for big, fat checks, we’ll be adding a Mike Hampton (don’t kid yourself, folks, most teams would love to have a guy like that added to their rotation, injury or not…) a John Foster and Blaine Boyer to a team with an offense already more potent than the Cardinals, Reds, Mets (yes,the Mets), etc.

We’ll just have to wait and see…. just like the Braves brass.

By mart

August 17, 2006 07:58 AM | Link to this

Smoltz is as responsible as anyone else for the debacle this season and the playoff implosions of the past decade and a half. In crunch, time the Braves AND SMOLTZ simply don’t perform.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

August 17, 2006 08:08 AM | Link to this

The offense needs a leadoff hitter and Giles is not the answer. Not that I think Giles should go but he isn’t a leadoff hitter. He doesn’t like it and shouldn’t be forced into it. This offense needs a true leadoff hitter because its unbalanced and that has shown on sevral occassions this season. You can’t have a lineup full of HR hitters because that is a recipe for disaster. Don’t beleive me? Ask the Tigers of the late 80’s and early 90’s. The Rangers of the 1990’s. The Mets of anytime until this year. The Reds the previous two seasons. A lineup will have more success full of contact hitters than it will HR hitters. HR hitters hit homeruns but they also strikeout and popup at an alarming rate. You have to have both types of hitters and the Braves don’t.

This season is over. I want to have hope but when you can’t beat the Nats and their AAA pitchers then it is truly over. Perhaps they will gain a set and play with some dignity the rest of the season, but I’m not holding my breath!

By Clemmey Queen

August 17, 2006 08:13 AM | Link to this

It is hard to beat the opponent plus your own coach. My dad used to say no use to close the barn door once the horse is out. With a pitcher that has a history of walking two and giving up a home run it appears it would be time to remove him when he walks two. Check the record every time but one this year when prat pitches the pitching is terible. why not give Mccan a day off when one of his miner league pitchers is pitching and when you do have a smoltz on the mound give it your best shot with your best players,

By Shaun

August 17, 2006 08:24 AM | Link to this

Listen until last year, Andruw probably fell into the same category as Francoeur offensively.

Actually Andruw Jones has been at least better than an average centerfielder every full season he has played in the majors starting at age 20 in 1997. Jones has always had decent plate discipline. You can still stikeout a lot and be productive if you also walk a lot and/or get a lot of hits.

I do agree that Francouer is still very young and he will probably will develop into a productive player at the very least and into a star at most. And I understand that he’s very cheap and his contributions with the glove probably even out his deficiencies with the bat. But it probably wasn’t/isn’t a good idea to give him well over 500 plate appearances this season. He will likely finish with the most plate appearances on the team.

By Ranger

August 17, 2006 08:28 AM | Link to this

Toast

By Shaun

August 17, 2006 08:40 AM | Link to this

Giles is a fine option for leadoff. He isn’t the best, but his .350 on-base pct. is okay, especially considering he was injured for a good portion of the season.

By bobbo

August 17, 2006 08:55 AM | Link to this

Once again Bobby went with the double AA lineup. Langerhans and pratt, i understand giving mcann a night off he needs one every once and awhile but why in a game when your without andruw as well. Smoltzie got rocked but oh well we tried to battle back and had the chance to win one until “The Bullpen ” struck again, at this point im done blaming the bullpen Im putting this sqaurely on JS’S shoulders this guy took a major league baseball team into a season wiith a bunch of guys in the bullpen with no business being there, none of these guys are good enough the end. JS gave this team no chance to win form the get go this year by tying up half our limited payroll into four players

By bobbo

August 17, 2006 09:01 AM | Link to this

The Major Difference is, that Andruw when first called up from the minors was really just there to filla hole for two seasons before we really counted on him. Frenchy is being counted on to be a premier player right away, and afer his start last year it looked like he was well on his way. But just look at his numbers sided by side with say a ryan howard(they came up within days of eachother last year)obviousely frenchy isn’t gonna hit as many homeruns, but the steady improvement is what we would like. The little things, like 1st and 2nd no outs, make sure the guys get over, instead he swings at the first pitch and foul pops. Productivity is not always in numbers, it’s about smart decisions, and getting your moneys worth every time your at bat making the other team work to getyou out. I think Sports Illustrated hit it on the head when the said he is the least productive 30hr 100 rbi guyt although I think he will end up more like 25 90 I hope for the sake of our future he gets it turned around next year.

By Don Berry

August 17, 2006 09:07 AM | Link to this

I can’t believe Braves fans call Smoltz mediocre or saying that he should retire or the Braves should get rid of him….this guy is a STUD and if it weren’t for the GARBAGE bullpen the Braves have, he would be 17-6 right now with a shot at another Cy Young. The Best of the Best have an off night.

As for Giles….he NEEDS to be in the 2nd hole…the guy was hitting great there. Brought his average up about 30 points and since he has been back in the leadoff spot, its declining again.

Whoever said that McCann should be in the 3rd hole instead of the STUD we call Chipper is retarded….They have nearly identical #’s and Chipper has been hitting in that spot for 10 years, why would you move him???? You have to have some guys near the bottom with an average, HR’s and RBI’s…McCann is a perfect fit for a 5, 6, 7 guy. Also, HOW DO YOU PUT YOUR HR AND RBI LEADER ANYWHERE ELSE BUT THE 4TH HOLE????? COME ON NOW!!!!

By Rodger

August 17, 2006 09:17 AM | Link to this

Gosh folks-not wanting to revisit too much history, but without Wohlers, we don’t make the Series in 95 & 96.

The fact we need to face is Giles isn’t going to cut it at lead-off. Don’t know why, but its just not happening! Either move Renteria, or Diaz, but Gilly is not the answer.

As for Frenchy, since his call up, he is among the league leaders in RBI and assists-that equals a big plus in net runs. Sure it’s frustrating to watch him hack when common sense says to look at a couple pitches, but as is pointed out he’s just 22. We could have Jordan out there…

By Shaun

August 17, 2006 09:19 AM | Link to this

bobbo,

I agree with almost everything you said. Except I think the “little things” you are referring to are actually just one big thing, which is getting on base/not costing the Braves so many outs. Which I think is in the numbers because we can measure that. He’s making an out in almost 72 percent of his plate appearances.

By Shaun

August 17, 2006 09:28 AM | Link to this

Rodger,

RBI aren’t a good measure of production.

By Shaun

August 17, 2006 09:30 AM | Link to this

Counting stats (RBI, HR, runs scored) aren’t very informative because they’re highly context dependent and don’t account for how many outs a player is using up.

-Dayn Perry http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=2562

By Nathan

August 17, 2006 09:30 AM | Link to this

Well no wonder Smoltz gets roughed up, he is nearly 40 and is essentially carrying the entire team for most of the season. The most frustrating part of this years team is that there are 2 reasons and 2 reasons only we are a sub-.500 and non-playoff contending club.

Oh if you believe in the SI curse at all, I think SI picked the Mets for about the last 3-4 years to overtake us and for some reason this year they picked us to keep taking the East by saying something to the affect of “We’ve learned our lesson and we’re taking the Braves”. Truthfully I think its kind of funny. If the club can get a legit leadoff player next year, Hampton shows hes worth even half of his salary coming off his elbow injury, and we have a legit closer, we’ll be contenders again.

By Shaun

August 17, 2006 09:34 AM | Link to this

Here’s a little exerpt from a Baseball Prospectus piece:

-Counting stats (RBI, HR, runs scored) aren’t very informative because they’re highly context dependent and don’t account for how many outs a player is using up.

-Percentage stats are far better than counting stats, but only in the presence of a sizeable data sample (i.e., plate appearances).

-Percentage stats are only negligibly influenced by teammates and lineup slotting, but, like all traditional statistics, they are influenced by ballpark and historical era.

-Players at the corner positions generally produce better offensive numbers than those players at the more vital up-the-middle positions.

-AVG isn’t really useful unless viewed in tandem with OBP, SLG and plate appearances.

-And the greatest of these is OBP because it can also tell you how often a player creates outs at the plate.

By swamprat

August 17, 2006 09:58 AM | Link to this

These folks who are fed up with the Braves and looking so positive toward the Falcons and Dawgs football season will be back here with their negative statements if either of these teams hit a rough spot. None of them are players or coaches—just imaginary experts. Their only asset is BS slinging.

By ATLER

August 17, 2006 10:08 AM | Link to this

No Andruw = No win for the Braves!!!!! All you Falcon haters out there need to quit being haters, you are the same guys that thought Doug Johnson should have been the QB all along before Vick got hurt. Well he got hurt and you seen what happened. The Dirty Birds are playoff bound and there’s nothing you haters can do about it!!!!!

By Simeon Smashes Vick All Day

August 17, 2006 10:12 AM | Link to this

The Falcons Suck.

By Simeon Smashes Vick All Day

August 17, 2006 10:15 AM | Link to this

The Braves season is done period. But don’t worry, the Mets will choked in the playoffs and the Braves will be back next year.

By ATLER

August 17, 2006 10:18 AM | Link to this

So does the weak Bucs too along with that weak a*s QB Simms

By Simeon Smashes Vick All Day

August 17, 2006 10:21 AM | Link to this

Yeah, right. Tell you what, we’ll see this year what happens. You’re just mad cause the Falcons can’t beat em.

By Simeon Smashes Vick All Day

August 17, 2006 10:22 AM | Link to this

Don’t forget the Bucs Defense has Vick’s number.

By Simeon Smashes Vick All Day

August 17, 2006 10:26 AM | Link to this

What’s the matter? Are you running from it like Vick does?

By DJ

August 17, 2006 10:29 AM | Link to this

It’s time to pack it up and start preparing for the 2007 season, for JS and the crew will have a lot of things to consider in the off-season: speed at the top of the lineup, improving the bench, another potent bat in the lineup would not hurt either, a front line pitcher, and somehow re-signing Baez and Wickman. This group of Braves just could not hang with this year.

Let’s face it, as long as they operate on a mediocre budget of $80 million, they will always have to juggle with guys from the farm system and constant journeymen. Sad to say, but unless they re-sign Andruw after next season, this organization might just go through a string of seasons with youth that will have to experience the growing pains of success in order to obtain that “swagger” once again. I thin kthat they will be back, but they have got to be able to manufacture runs through “small ball” rather than waiting for the two or three run big fly. The idea here is to work smarter and harder, which is something that was underachieved this year. Yet and still and I am loyal to the Braves.

Time to face reality and prepare for 2007.

By Shaun

August 17, 2006 10:30 AM | Link to this

The problems is pitching. The offense scored plenty of runs.

By Amber

August 17, 2006 10:48 AM | Link to this

Is the final nail in the coffin yet?

By Dave from Chattanooga

August 17, 2006 10:51 AM | Link to this

I miss Phil Niekro, Dale Murphy, Steve Avery, Greg Maddux, Ron Gant, Jeff Blauser, Terry Pendleton, David Justice, Sid Bream, Fred McGriff, Andres Galarragga and Mark Wohlers … in short, I miss OVERachievers.

By Will

August 17, 2006 10:56 AM | Link to this

I am a big Braves fan and well remember the small crowds at Fulton County Statium. Perhaps someone can help me understand something about the “lead off spot”. It seems to me that more often than not, the #1 hitter leads off as the first batter of the game, thereafter, depending on the number of hits, walks, etc, that position will be batting anywhere in the lineup. Thus my question? Why is it so important that Giles bat in either leadoff, or second position. Any help?

By Shaun

August 17, 2006 11:03 AM | Link to this

Will,

Reseach seems to show batting order is not that important, as I’ve been trying to tell folks for a couple of weeks. Arranging players in the “right” order is only worth a few runs a year. Who’s in the lineup is much more important.

By Shaun

August 17, 2006 11:05 AM | Link to this

Will,

Obviously every run counts, so you want your guys that make the fewest outs to bat first so they get the most plate appearances. But, really it’s not going to make a significant difference throughout the course of a season.

By nathan

August 17, 2006 11:11 AM | Link to this

Don Berry

I was the one who said you move McCann to the 3-hole. Why?

Let me spell it out for you like this.

Is Chipper the best hitter on the team. Sure, I can go with that. Is he reliable to play every day? NOT EVEN CLOSE! The guy is a walking injury waiting to happen. AND IT WILL CONTINUE UNTIL HE RETIRES. I’m not saying when healthy he doesn’t deserve to be there. But why not put somebody that you’re pretty sure you can rely on to be in the most important spot in the order? If you “rely” on Chipper to fill that roll, then the whole batting order is out of whack when he isn’t in it. Which if you haven’t noticed happens to be A LOT!

Chipper has more power and more RBI than McCann does, sure. But it’s hard for me to fathom that if McCann was in the 3-hole he wouldn’t be nearing 100 RBI.

RBI are a product of who is around you in the order last time I checked. How many RBI would Andruw have had last year if he was hitting 6th or 7th? Not 128, that’s for sure. McCann has been hitting around .345 ALL YEAR! He would be an RBI machine with how well his approach is at the plate (YOU NEVER SEE HIM SWING FOR THE FENSES!). But when you have low average guys like Andruw and Francoeur around you in the order you are going to get pitched around with men on base and not to mention the fact that Andruw in the clean-up spot usually knocks in the runs before McCann gets a chance to. McCann is a single and double machine, plain and simple. He is also not fast. So I’d rather see him in the 3 or 4 hole knocking in the runs with his GREAT approach and thought process at the plate. Because what happens if he leads off an inning or continues a rally with a single or a double? Yup, that’s right he’s got Francoeur hitting behind him. the only way he scores is with a Francoeur or LaRoche HR or TWO consecutive hits. That’s where his high average and multi-hit games are going to waste, because nobobdy behind him in the order is a situational hitter. HELL the guy can’t run like a typical leadoff hitter. But he’d even be better in the 1 or 2 whole than 5th or 6th. Like I said before Mike Piazza (catcher’s speed last time I checked) did OK in the 3 or 4 hole most of his career. Paul LoDuca had some pretty good years, as did Todd Hundley hitting high in the order. Chipper is great. But you are CRAZY if you can’t admit that McCann is not the best “hitter” on this team.

It is one of the biggest misconception of all time that your 3 and 4 hitter HAVE to be power hitters. Sure it’s nice, if you have power hitters, it’s a good spot to put them. But anybody out there notice that when the Yankees won their 4 World Series titles in the 90’s, they really didn’t have a lot of Power? Just 6 or 7 really good HITTERS that knew when to swing for the fenses and knew when to take the ball the other way to knock in the run when needed. Jeter has hit some BIG HR’s in the post season. But would you call him a HR hitter? Not me. Our BEST post season hitter ever on this roster was Marquis Grissom. If I recall he hit in the 3-hole in Montreal and knocked in around 100 RBI. Then we trade for him and put him in the leadoff role. He adapted and did what needed to be done to GET THE JOB DONE!

As for asking why we wouldn’t want our BEST hitter (I’m assuming you mean Chipper) in the 3-hole! That would be like me saying, Damn why don’t we have our best Left Handed Pitcher in the rotation (Mike Hampton)? Oh, that’s because he’s hurt, and he’s always hurt. There comes a time, especially when they are making a LOT of money that you have to give up on SUPERSTARS that can’t stay in the lineup. It clouds your mind and judgement as a GM/Manager. Because you assume you have the position covered. Then when they go out you’ve got nobody (don’t even start on the Betemit BS!- I’m not in the mood!). Or the other thing that happens is as a GM you say “Hmmm, Chipper can’t stay healthy, I need to find a GOOD backup for when he goes down. That’s just STUPID! How about find a RELIABLE REPLACEMENT and use the other roster spot on an actual area of need! (BULLPEN!) You think for the sake of the Fans, that the White Sox wouldn’t have loved to keep Frank Thomas around until he retired? Or how about Boston with Nomar? You finally have to just let go. If they go on to have a couple of good years some place else, so be it. Better to get rid of somebody 2 years too soon, than 2 too late IMO.

How different would this season have been had we traded Betemit in the spring for even an above average arm for the pen. We would’ve found somebody to temporarily replace Chipper, especially if we had a bullpen that could lock down close games, we wouldn’t need all of the offense. If you didn’t notice, we scored 6 runs last night and LOST! I’m curious in the 90’s how many times we scored 6 runs and LOST? My guess is that it was less times in the entire DECADE than we have this year. Just a guess.

By Jim

August 17, 2006 12:06 PM | Link to this

Just a brief note on the “Leyritz game”. There were two other plays before the homerun that are overlooked, but contributed significantly to the defeat.

The first occured at the start of the 6th inning with Jeter leading off and the Braves up 6-0. Jeter hit a pop foul down the rightfield line that Dye did not catch because he took his eye off the ball to avoid the foul line umpire. (Why are 6 umps needed in playoff games? I have never seen an umpire miss a fair/foul call on a ball that stays in the park during the regular season; and the foul line ump has no better perspective on the fair/foul homerun. These calls should be decided by video-tape if there is a controversy. Besides the Dye play in ‘96, a foul line ump blew the Jeffery Maier catch and got in the way of J. Cruz in the Cubs-Giants series.) Given a second chance, Jeter started the first rally to get the game to 6-3.

The batter before the Leyritz HR, hit a made to order dp grounder to Belliard, but he bobbled the ball and only got the force at 2nd. Instead of 2 outs runner on 3rd down 3 runs when Leyritz batted, there were runners on 1st and 3rd with only 1 out.

Also after Rodgers left the game early, the Yankee bullpen never gave up another run in the game. The Braves’ hitters could do nothing with the Boehringers and Lloyds before they had to deal with Rivera and Wettland.

By Shaun

August 17, 2006 12:48 PM | Link to this

But you are CRAZY if you can’t admit that McCann is not the best “hitter” on this team.

Chipper is probably the best hitter on the team, but McCann is close. Chipper has been worth more runs above a fringe player at his position.

And actually, Chipper has been in the lineup more than McCann. Chipper has 38 more plate appearances.

I’m not trying to say one is better. It’s pretty close and they are both great players. McCann may have an edge overall because of his defense.

By Shaun

August 17, 2006 12:51 PM | Link to this

It’s not obvious that McCann is the best hitter on his team, but it is obvious that he is one of the two best. And he may be the best catcher in the National League.

By Shaun

August 17, 2006 12:53 PM | Link to this

Actually you could throw Andruw Jones in the mix. He’s pretty close to McCann and Chipper. He’s worth about 37 runs over a fringe centerfielder.

By peggy

August 17, 2006 01:05 PM | Link to this

Okay, let’s just all sit back and “watch” the rest of the games. Fourteen years was a good ride, and we can take it. How many teams do that, how many teams even go to a World Series-not even counting winning one! Mistakes were made-we needed more experienced players,etc. That list could go on……….but why sweat it? Other things are more important in life than winning or losing ballgames. I have been around since The Atlanta Crackers so it goes around and around!Just go with the saying,”wait till next year.”

By Woodrow

August 17, 2006 01:13 PM | Link to this

Last night’s game was, unfortunately, the first nail in the coffin of this season. Hopefully the pitching corps will be better next year. Resign Wickman and get Hampton, Ramirez, and Davies well; those three along with C. James, Smoltzie, and a revamped Hudson could potentially be the rotation we need.

By beachcomber

August 17, 2006 01:15 PM | Link to this

Well said Peggy. Win or lose, it is great to listen to a game at work. Makes the day tolerable. Viva Villareal - he kept Soriano in the park - by about two feet

By John Schuerholz

August 17, 2006 01:15 PM | Link to this

Here’s what I’m thinking:

Hampton will be back and will win 15-20 games.

Smoltzie’s good for 15

Huddy will be back in form and win 20 games.

Horacio will be back and win 15 games.

Chuckie will win 15 games.

That’s the BEST staff in baseball !

Why the complaints !

Hopefully we’ll sign Baez & Wickman, but that’s another story !

I’ll keep the company Kool Aid flowing to Dave O’brien and Pete Van Wieren.

Ciao !

By Shaun

August 17, 2006 02:09 PM | Link to this

Bright Spots

The pitching hasn’t been good, but there are a couple of bright spots: Chad Paronto and Ken Ray. Paronto has been about 14 runs better than a fringe reliever, Ray about 12. Granted, this is in limited innings.

By Young

August 17, 2006 02:16 PM | Link to this

Do not worry, you are too impatient, all the Braves needed is getting on a 200 game winning streak and the Mets getting on a 1000 game losing streak this season and the Braves will win the Division for 2006 by a quarter of a game, just wait and see it will happen the Baseball God has said many times that it will happen by tomorrow. The magic number for the Braves to win the East in 5000 and it will happen because the Baseball God will make it happen. Stop being so impatient.

By Woodrow

August 17, 2006 02:49 PM | Link to this

Way to go Villareal!!! Impressive performance being pressed into starting.

By ATLER

August 17, 2006 04:41 PM | Link to this

Nice win Bravos, way not to embarrass us Atl fans today. Now just keep it going and hopefully Andruw will come back and save us. Hey Posterboy fans did you see Frenchy’s stats??? I can hear a pin drop now.