Sports Columnists

By Joe Leonard

August 16, 2005 11:31 PM | Link to this

This is an excellent column, clearly written, and make an outstanding point. I was please to have an opportunity to provide some information and to be quoted.

Joe

Joseph W. Leoanrd, Ph.D. Miami University Oxford, Ohio

By j hill

August 16, 2005 11:34 PM | Link to this

You miss the point about “mascots”. FSU got rid of the humiliating mascot in the 1970s when it retired “Sammy Seminole” and worked with the Seminole Tribe of Florida to come up with a new “respectful” tradition. If Mr. Moore you had ever visited FSU you would see how the university honors and respects this noble people.

As to the above statement: “Theoretically, if you find even one person that thinks something like that is offensive, it should change. In this case, it’s way more than one.â€? Theoretically, If you find even one person that thinks something like that is offensive — he should be seriously listened to and his objections should be noted. As for many more than one … you are right it is a small amount of the same people, who have harassed these universities for years on end. They have even provided false information to groups that were trying to decide what was “hostile and abusive”, by this I refer to a letter sent to the NCAA (before its rash and partial judgment) by a member of the Seminole Nation of Oklahoma professing to speak for the entire Tribes. He was corrected, and the Seminole Nation of Oklahoma cast a vote 18-2 in favor of FSUs use of Seminole imagery. It is one thing to oppose an issue of this magnitude, but quite another to “speak with a forked tongue”. I may feel George W. Bush is a bumbling idiot, but I do not tell lies about the man to help secure my agenda.

A final thought, let the AJC know you are one of the reasons I refuse to by their paper, I never agree with your editorials and often find you “hostile and abusive”. I will say for you, your article did one thing I always try to do, myself being an artist, at least you got some reaction. There is nothing worse than getting no response at all.

By Bill S

August 16, 2005 11:49 PM | Link to this

It’ll be a truly sad day when Notre Dame can’t be the Fighting Irish, the Montreal Hockey team can’t be the Candians, the Minnesota football team can’t be the Vikings, and the USA Olympic team can’t be the Americans. Will Cleveland no longer be the Browns, and Atlanta no longer be the Braves (maybe it can be singular)? Of course, because of Global Warming, Phoenix can no longer be the Suns, and because of Terorism, Dayton can’t be the Flyers. Get a grip, it’s sports.

By doc

August 17, 2005 12:09 AM | Link to this

i guess i still dont get it, shall we now change the name of the braves to the crackers so i as a majority can offend myself which is what i am, a descendent of many ga crackers. sometimes i think we are all a little bit too sensitive and really want to make something out of nothing. i think it still strikes more at the spirit of the mascot not the cartoon that is represented, just look at the silly bee of ga tech. in the context of the cracker it was more for their perserverence in adversity and the trials they had to overcome, for the warrior it is the mystical, spiritual desire to hold onto what it had in the face of terrible odds.

i see these names as honorable such as celtics or irish, etc that when taken out of context could be offensive but it is not at all meant to be that way. i think you continue to play this card way too often or else you should be the first to want to change the derogatory depiction of the poor bedraggled irishman that came as an immigrant to the us to be beaten down,overworked and underpaid and treated as though he were a slave. when do you wake up to your own sense of consciousness or lack there of. drop it, you are too good a writer to continue this stuff without realizing there is always three fingers pointing back at you.

By Walt D

August 17, 2005 12:10 AM | Link to this

Great column Mr. Moore, unfortunately the sentiment of others will not be the same. It’s a shame that people would much rather boast about their alma mater rather than being sensitive to another persons culture and heritage. Continue writing and being the voice for those that are in the minority! Walter

By Chuckville Jack

August 17, 2005 12:54 AM | Link to this

Trying to be ‘politically correct’, are we? Many people today are too sensitive about ridiculous issues. I see I can count you as one of those folks. “No offense intended” but your opinion is like roadkill….. it stinks to high heaven.

By Eric

August 17, 2005 01:48 AM | Link to this

I am offended by this column, so let’s remove the columnist.

By JR

August 17, 2005 03:48 AM | Link to this

Moore - Definition: 1- One who lived at or near a moor or marshy bog

As a proud former inhabitant of a marsh, I am offended that you are named after my people, demeaning us, offending us, and being hostile towards us.

While I cannot keep you from being named this, I will now bar you from publishing your meandering, pointless, small-minded, racist thoughts in the paper or online.

Better still, I’ll quit reading you.

By will

August 17, 2005 06:22 AM | Link to this

You have no constitutional right NOT to be offended. If you need something for which to be hacked off, try your newspaper’s socialist anti-war policy that is prolonging the war and costing American lives—- yes, even the lives of black U. S. soldiers.

By Rod

August 17, 2005 06:57 AM | Link to this

You stated “Theoretically, if you find even one person that thinks something like that is offensive, it should change. In this case, it’s way more than one.� There are many Atlanta readers who are continually offended by most of your columns (usually when you cry racism about everything). Therefore, by your own admission, you should leave the paper. Thank you for your resignation, we accept.

By Iconoclast

August 17, 2005 07:11 AM | Link to this

Many thanks to columnist Terence Moore for providing a good example for others to follow. Too bad that so many opponents of change to “Indian” sports team tokens cannot “see the light.”

1) This complex, emotionally volatile issue involves serious educational and civil rights concerns - not mere “offensiveness” or that related to the simplistic, negatively charged buzzwords, “political correctness.”

2) Comparing the profuse number of institutionalized “Indian” sports team tokens in use with those few associated with other ethnic groups is like “apples to oranges.” Historically, Notre Dame was originated and attended by Irish Catholics who elected to choose their own nickname and an IMAGINARY mascot, a “leprechaun.” The same cannot even remotely be said for the vast number of schools using “Indian” themed logos, symbols, mascots, and nicknames. Incidentally, Notre Dame HAS taken offense on at least two occasions when the Stanford marching band did parodies of the Irish Catholic which resulted in sanctions against and apologies from Stanford. Similar demeaning of American Indian cultures, spiritual beliefs and practices routinely continues across the country in thousands of public schools, universities, and professional venues without so much as a second thought. Besides, like the short-lived “Vikings” and even more ancient “Spartans,” Irish are part of the dominate EuroAmerican culture and cannot begin to understand the effects of ethnic discrimination and prejudice because it is simply something they have not experienced in type, frequency, or the degree to which American Indian people and other non-European based peoples are often confronted. Likewise, “Vikings” and “Spartans” had NOTHING to do with the U.S. They are long gone groups from far away places.

3) Regarding the “respectful” portrayal of FSU’s mascot, “Chief Osceola,” it is widely accepted that his costume, makeup, use of a horse, etc., have more to do with Hollywood “B” western movies than historic reality. In fact, the truth about the historic Osceola is that his corpse was beheaded and clothes and belongings taken by a doctor who wanted to make money off Osceola’s fame. The stereotypic “Indian head” used by FSU and so many other publicly funded schools is little more than a symbolic war trophy and reminder of Osceola’s horrific end.

3) None of this matters to those whose selfish, emotional interests blinds them to alternative perspectives. “The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye. The more light you shine upon it, the more it will contract.” Oliver Wendell Holmes

By Kudzu

August 17, 2005 07:14 AM | Link to this

Just another bit of propaganda by one who wishes we all were mindless clones, unable to think, judge, and have a bias. I believe you enjoy dumbing down, and I truly believe that (you think) all people should think the same and act the same. By the way, naming sports teams after animals or having animal mascots, i.e. lions, tigers, and bears; that should not be TOLERATED either, these animals have rights, too, you know.

Mr Moore, there are some things you ought to tolerate more and some things you should tolerate less. Why don’t you take your op ed to the editorial free speech page and let the journalist and sports guys give us some real sports news.

By Tommy

August 17, 2005 07:23 AM | Link to this

The Indian Nations don’t seem to have much problem with their names splattered across road signs and billboards advertising their gambling operations. Surly this doesn’t honor their heritage.

No that’s a battle for the babblers. Go for it!

By Steve Estep

August 17, 2005 07:23 AM | Link to this

In the words of Anchorman Ron Burgundy, “that makes no sense.” The only thing noteworthy about Moore’s columns is their predictability. Pick any subject, and Moore will find some racism angle that reveals his own prejudices. Boring. He even makes Mark Bradley look interesting.

By kendall

August 17, 2005 07:29 AM | Link to this

Do you know how many people are offended by religion? In your world, I guess religion should be removed. Pure ignorance.

By Deke

August 17, 2005 08:05 AM | Link to this

I just heard that Durex and Lifestyles customers will be suing USC to remove the name of their mascot because they feel offended by it.

By a native american

August 17, 2005 08:09 AM | Link to this

I think the editor is correct. I am a Native American and I think it’s a joke about FSU saying they are honoring us.(Native Americans) If you want to honor us, how about honoring the treatys signed with us? How about naming the school after the tribe and hiring a Seminole president? While we’re on it, how about telling the BIA to not listen to outside influences and decide who is Native or not based on facts and not by who has the most potential for a casino? Not every tribe applying for federal recognition is interested in opening one. As for your comments on the “Fighting Irish”, their mascot is a mythical character, (as much as you wish we would go away,) are not. Any you talk about ignorance….

By Bill

August 17, 2005 08:21 AM | Link to this

You write a good article and then ruin it by throwing in your obligatory racist comment that had no bearing on the article. Get over it and report on sports, and only sports, without throwing in your subtle digs.

By Gil Gibson

August 17, 2005 08:30 AM | Link to this

“If even ONE person is offended, it should be changed?” Does that mean if I am offended by something one of the AJC columnists writes, they should not be allowed to write it?

By doc

August 17, 2005 08:40 AM | Link to this

to iconoclast. ithink your statements about the irish are historically incorrect as there is a significant amount history held among those people that is almost as strong as the issues in the middle east. just think about the issues between the catholics and the protestants and the significant bombings that we grew up with and the real first terrorists came from there though usually not in the form of suicidal bombers. just think back to the images of the ira or the impoverished irish immigrants that struggled to have a life here. you have from your own perspective thoight of them as dominant though probably many of that era would have thought of themselves as the minority being taken advantage of. you have proven your own bias and insensitivity to what their reality might look like and again show that always three fingers are pointing back at you?

i am merely pointing out how moore’s beloved fighting irish could be a slam if taken in a literal context and trying to point out his own hypocrisy and lack of sensitivity to what those troubled people really went through and are still going through in their own country. you only see them as “dominant” but that is not historically correct . as far as the numbers i imagine there are a lot of high school teams called the fighting irish without any reflection on the savagery they had to go through to earn the status of a mascot.

moore can you really rationalize this hypocrisy when you think of what has really been sufferd by the oppressed irish? arent you really in kind a member of the “seminole nation” by your own insuffferable actions toward the irish or have you intelectually removed yourself from consciousness by your ignorance? do you not think someone has taken offense at this at somepoint, there must be some sensivity as the stanford cardinal has been offensive to the irish depicting it in some other way than its “fighting” image. i hope at some point you will wake up and either let it flow off your back or drop it until you can be truly objective to your own lack of sensitivity and quit trying to be so irresponsibly socially relevant. come join me and feed the homeless if you really want to make a difference and take action.

By Gary

August 17, 2005 08:46 AM | Link to this

Suggest you go back to your old view, and find something important to write about.

By Spartan

August 17, 2005 08:49 AM | Link to this

As a descendent of the proud people of the city-state of Sparta I am offended by the use of our name on Michigan State athletic gear, and I am especially offended by their cartoonish mascot who belittles our proud warrior heritage with his giant head and green armor - green! I would appreciate it if the people in charge of such things would change their name to something like the Green Tide, that I might, in time, learn to overcome the low self esteem they have thrust upon me with their insensitive nomenclature and get on with my life.

By Price

August 17, 2005 08:49 AM | Link to this

I can go along with some of the things that are said here, but this last line really gets me: “Theoretically, if you find even one person that thinks something like that is offensive, it should change…”. In the land of the quickly offended, if we lived by that motto, all we would be able to do is sit in a room and stare at our walls. I am offended by Terence Moore writing the same column about Griffey Jr. every month. Since I am one person offended, this must change. . the professor said so.

By Rob

August 17, 2005 08:52 AM | Link to this

As a history professor and social science division chair, I would have to give Terence’s essay an unsatisfactory grade. It lacks critical thinking and he is clearly not a history expert. He follows current political agendas and builds his “history” to support those agendas. Terence, go to the remedial classes at a local junior college and try again.

By wes

August 17, 2005 08:57 AM | Link to this

I miss Chief Noc-A-Homa. Didn’t the Braves organization have to fire his butt for coming to the games absolutely hammered? Maybe if all the Native American mascots would show up loaded to every sporting event, they could just get kicked out and the problem would solve itself…no need for the NCAA to get involved here.

By Spartan

August 17, 2005 08:58 AM | Link to this

As a descendent of the populace of the city-state of Sparta, I would like to state my outrage at the continued use of a cartoonish, green-armor clad Spartan as the mascot at Michigan State University. It belittles my people’s proud heritage, whose military prowess was legendary in antiquity. I request that those officials at the University in charge of such things change their name to the Green Tide, that I might, in time, overcome my low self-esteem that this belittlement has caused.

By AlexW

August 17, 2005 09:02 AM | Link to this

I thought this was the sports section. If anyone at the NCAA or Mr. Moore wants to editorialize about a non-sports (sports being defined as an athletic competition in which someone wins and someone loses) issue they should apply for a job as either a talk show host, newspaper editor or TV anchor. Let’s keep the sports page focused on sports.

By Al Shervik

August 17, 2005 09:07 AM | Link to this

When I read your articles, this is what I hear - “blah, blah, blah, blah, you’re all racist, blah, blah, blah, blah”.

By doc

August 17, 2005 09:07 AM | Link to this

to native american, the fgihting irish are hardly mythical and shows your own ignorance. they earned that moniker on the docks and wharves and continue that in the recent form of the ira. to some it conjures up the image of drunken and rowdy irishmen at a pub with nothing better to do with their lives than to sit around drinking,singing and fighting away their lives. sound familiar and hardly mythical when it is taken in its literal? though some laugh i think it is disgusting to follow a team called the gamecocks as it is an animal that cant protect tiself from the savagery, sorry for the use of that term, and abuse it receives in the rural south as people feed off its instincts to fight back as they bet on a winner, all in the guise of fun. i would think it would be more socially correct to take the point that the players are being used in a similar manner as we love to see the brutal hits taken and given by these poor players just trying to get an education. yes it is all nonsense when really taken literally, get over it, i guess its just a game.

By Pappy Red

August 17, 2005 09:08 AM | Link to this

I’m so and tired of all this stupid “P.C” crap, everybody just needs to grow a pair and quit whining and crying about every little thing that “offends” them. Last time I checked words don’t do any actual physical damage to a person.

By Scott Ellmaker

August 17, 2005 09:08 AM | Link to this

“Theoretically, if you find even one person that thinks something like that is offensive, it should change.” If this comment is true than we cannot have any team names. Matter of fact, we will barely be able to talk, and we will definitely not be able to ever express opinions.

By Un-native American

August 17, 2005 09:15 AM | Link to this

Hey Native American, “Any you talk about ignorance….”—-What the hell does that mean? is that injin talk? Yo no comprendo partner, maybe you should put the bottle of fire water down and learn some grammer. Why the hell would FSU want a Seminiole as their president? Last time I checked all you guys are good for is NOT working ans getting drunk, at least the mexicans are willing to work….

By TomK

August 17, 2005 09:18 AM | Link to this

I second J.Hill’s response that I too do not “buy” the AJC because of articles like this one that make every attempt to fuel the stupidity in our culture.

There is nothing wrong with having a mascot that represents a part of what this country is all about. The NCAA has overstepped it’s authority with this recent ruling and I’ll bet you lunch that the administration and definitely the alumni of Florida State University will not sit on their hands and not fight this ridiculous ruling by the NCAA.

You and your colleges have the ability to be good reporters but you constantly harp in your columns in this paper about any little thing you can remotely construe as discrimination. I can cite MANY examples of people discriminating against me, but I do not dwell on it. Stop living in the past and realize that EVERYONE in their lifetime gets discriminated upon and discrimination is not reserved for a particular race or segment of our country.

By Tom

August 17, 2005 09:20 AM | Link to this

No less than 24 hours did AJC make these columns free again, and Tereence Moore has already laid down his first Race Card. Seems like old times again.

By Mike M

August 17, 2005 09:21 AM | Link to this

Why is it that I have a hard time believing you somehow were innocently offended at Robert E Lee’s home? I agree with your point about how slaves were treated but do not act like all of the sudden you had an “awakening” when you arrived at the mansion! I am pretty sure you went there with the intentions of being offended in some shape or form, and it appears you were.

If you want to write about the ills of our society join the regular editorial staff, connecting Robert E Lee’s slaves to the topic of school mascots is sad.

I think the whole column has to do more with the idea you had a column to write and had no positive ideas to promote and this was the best you could do at the time. I am sure that Miami (Ohio) is proud!

By Tom

August 17, 2005 09:22 AM | Link to this

Not less than 24hs since the AJC has made these columns free again, has Terence Moore already laid down his first Race Card. Seems like old times.

By Steve Bryant

August 17, 2005 09:28 AM | Link to this

Thank God President Bush doesn’t take the “if you find even one person that thinks something like that is offensive, it should change” attitude. The comparison of naming a sports team after an indian tribe to the treatment of slaves has absolutely no merit. I’ve read Mr. Moore atricles no more than 5 times over the last 15 years. I will cut that back even more.

By R Roper

August 17, 2005 09:32 AM | Link to this

I agree with other respondents that Mr. Moore is once again “playing the race card”. Teams choose their symbols based upon perceived powers of strength, courage and dignity. It is foolishness to assume this demeans anyone! Also, I find his claims of a personal epiphany by equating comments about slavery to the use of symbols by sports teams a bit far fetched. No, Terrance, these issues are not related. Unless I am WAAAY wrong, there have never been teams named the Birmingham “Darkies”, the Indiana “High Yellows”, or the Brooklyn “Mammies”. Thus, your comparisons fail.

By Matthew Young

August 17, 2005 09:34 AM | Link to this

Mr. Moore- You have a mental disorder. It is called extreme leftism.Why not just ban football? After all, even the ball is offensive to pigs and muslims. You have been living in “the San Fransisco of the South” for far too long. You have lost touch with the sain people of this country. You people at the AJC have gone off of the deep end!

By lee smith

August 17, 2005 09:37 AM | Link to this

I wonder how sensitve Walt D is to anglo-saxon culture and heritage.

By changed mind

August 17, 2005 09:44 AM | Link to this

Terrence, please allow me to draw an analogy to the “revelation” you had regarding mascot nicknames. As a white male with roots that go back 5 generations in the State of Georgia, I never could understand the problem people had with the old state flag… that is until I decided to find out for myself when and where it started. You see, I wasn’t alive during the segregated south and I thought that we had that flag since that SOB Sherman torched the place. But we hadn’t. A lawyer designed that flag in the late 50’s as a symbolic “middle finger” gesture to the US Government who was trying to do nothing but have white and black people treated equally. Do I have pictures of Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson in my house/office, of course I do. Did I do everything I could to make sure that a symbol of racism (the flag, not the St. Andrews Cross itself) was removed from our great state, you bet I did.

Now, Mr. Moore you and the people you spoke with have failed to convince me, someone who has had his “redneck eyes” opened before, that there was ever any harm intended with any of these names. Did the descendants of General Custer come up with the “Redskins” nickname for Miami of Ohio? Come on.

Mr. Moore, let me pose a question to you and to the other readers of color. Would you have a problem with a college in Tuskegee changing their mascot name to “Airmen” and using the image of a black fighter pilot? The school wanting their athletic teams to embrace an image of a tough, smart, dedicated individual who fought against high odds on the battlefield and at home? How would that dishonor those brave men, their families or people of color?

By the way, as a Notre Dame graduate and Irish descendant, I LOVE the Fighting Irish moniker, even if it was adopted because of it’s embrace by a Swede (Knute Rockne).

By Mike

August 17, 2005 09:46 AM | Link to this

On the same note, the Atlanta Braves should change their name to the Atlanta Crackers. Not only would this be fine tribute to the original professional Atlanta baseball team but it would also open up some unique marketing opportunites. After all, at the end of the day, it all comes down to economics.

By alan

August 17, 2005 09:52 AM | Link to this

A poster from above kind of made this point already, but… As an American of Irish descent, I must object to the bewhiskered, pugnacious, leprechaunish “Fighting Irish” mascot of Mr. Moore’s beloved alma mater. Since, “Theoretically, if you find even one person that thinks something like that is offensive, it should change”, I expect Mr. Moore, now that he has “seen the light”, to devote his next article to effecting the immediate change of this racist, demeaning mascot.

By Jim

August 17, 2005 10:04 AM | Link to this

“Theoretically, if you find even one person that thinks something like that is offensive, it should change. In this case, it’s way more than one.�

Make every individual happy. Great idea. That’s why our elections are unanimous, right? Don’t we have something better to do than this?

By Ken

August 17, 2005 10:04 AM | Link to this

If we are going to do away with everything that even offends one person then we are going to be ridding this world of many things including religion. People need to worry about things that are important like starving children in Africa. Maybe the offended Indian Nations could spend more time in that area than worring about school names and mascots.

By Phillip

August 17, 2005 10:05 AM | Link to this

I think this column said exactly what should have been said in papers across the country. I am a Native American and I am offended by the mascots completely. Chief Osceola, who is represented at FSU games, is completely inaccuarately presented as a Seminole; his image is incorrect from the fake war paint that Osceola never wore to the horse that Osceola never rode. Terms such as “redskin” are derogatory, when will people understand that? This is why we do not have a team called the Washington “Darkees” or the Cleveland “Spics.” It is disrespectful and hurtful. I am not part of a small group of people that has been agitating this issue for years, I am a human being who has a right to their dignity.

By Sheila

August 17, 2005 10:07 AM | Link to this

Thank you for always speaking the truth about bigotry in this country. As a white woman living in America, I am constantly embarrassed by those who have absolutely no empathy of how something may affect someone else!

By Braves fan

August 17, 2005 10:08 AM | Link to this

To an extent you may have a point, TMoore. However, until you provide a Native American tribe called the “Braves” or “Warriors” or find a tomahawk or feathered spear that is offended by the use of them as symbols, you should reserve the criticism for only those teams that use the image of a Native American or the name of a specific tribe. The Atlanta Braves got rid of chief noc a homa a long time ago and the face of a Native American. If anyone is upset with the Braves, then they are upset over the past, not anything being done at present. If FSU and the local Seminole tribe are happy with how their relationship is, then it’s none of your business, or the NCAA’s.

By Stefanie

August 17, 2005 10:14 AM | Link to this

Wow Mr. Moore, You’ve really stirred ‘em up…again. They’ll be badmouthing you all week on sports talk radio. I’ll have to listen to the whole rehashing of David Justice ALL week long. Your article is on point!!!

By MJ4UF

August 17, 2005 10:14 AM | Link to this

I am offended that the ladies do not love me for the Sweet ‘05 Mustang I drive. . this must change too!

By JERRY

August 17, 2005 10:15 AM | Link to this

I didn’t care for native’s remarks either, but before I would slam him for his “grammer”, I would run spellcheck or invest in a speak and spell. I bet you are a bulldog fan!

By wes

August 17, 2005 10:18 AM | Link to this

I had a friend who was killed in a car accident. And it upsets me that Georgia Tech persists on calling themselves the “Rambling Wreck”. It brings me to tears every time.

By ms. smith

August 17, 2005 10:19 AM | Link to this

So this must be some sort of contest to see who can make the most stupid comment. “Oh, soon we wont be able to have a leprechaun for a mascot!” “This is propoganda!” “Why not think about animal rights and take thier names off teams too?” “Stop trying to make me think like you!” And my favorite, “You’re a racist!” Please. Is this supposed to be clever diatribe, pithy backlash? If so, it falls horribly short. While there were a few thoughtful responses, particularly by Iconoclast, the majority of these postings sound idiotic. And why? Because through them, we can clearly see the writers’ unwillingness to - even for one second - consider the perspective of another person. While many accused Mr. Moore of trying to control their thought process and force an issue, it seems to me that his write up is being persecuted not for any other valid reason, but because they dont agree with it.

Would it be so hard to consider the fact that perhaps there might be a valid reason why a Native American might be offended by what we are talking about? Would it be so hard to try and - for one second - identify with a group of people who have been oppressed? I guess the real issue is that to do this, we have to acknowledge that we played a role in their oppression. We have to realize that every time we chanted “hey yaw hey yaw hey yaw hey”, chopping frantically at the air, we were making a mockery of someone else’s culture. Every time we have referred to someone whose behavior was out of control as a “wild Indian” we have insulted a whole group of people. And who among these erudite sports fans is willing to make such an admission? Who among these clogs even has the capacity of that much introspection?

I am sure I am going to see postings that will disagree vehemently with everything I have written. There will be avid sports fans who are supporters of their Indian named teams and mascots but - of course - have never waved a fake tomohawk or chanted with the crowd. They will say my point is baseless and argue over my intention and my racially inflamatory statements. And then there will be some who will say that yes, they have done everything that I have written about, and they know no one was offended by it. They might even tell me of all the Native Americans they know who dont have a problem with it, and who knows, they might be telling the truth. But I will find it hard to believe them. I’m more inclined to listen to the only person that truly has a right to comment on the topic so far - the ONE Native American (that I could tell) who posted a comment.

Just one more thing and then i’m through. For all those that called Mr. Moore a racst, consider this; here is a black man - born of and raised in a oppressive culture - who is admitting that through his own ignorance, he has unwittingly behaved in an oppressive, offensive way himself. He is ultimately admitting his realization that even he - a black man - is capable of prejudiced, racially insensitive behavior. The point of his article is to point out that if he is capable of this behavior, we all are. He article highlights the similarities that we all share through our human fallibility. You, the reader who accused him of racism, chose to excavate the differences. But then again, I guess its not that serious; after all it’s only sports.

By Pensmoke

August 17, 2005 10:27 AM | Link to this

The majority of the comments here are no surprise to me. It’s obvious that the writers are your typical middle aged beer guzzling sports fanatic white men who could care less about anything that doesn’t affect them. Your responses are so predictable guys, try to come better than that. Comparing Indian people to animals,leprechauns, etc. Can you not come up with a better set of lies and nonsensical ramblings to try to justify your disregard for how Indian people feel? Come on, you guys have to do better than that. You are more than likely a bunch of culturally dead fools who have nothing better to follow in life than a sports team, because you have no culture to be proud of.

By Charles Drew

August 17, 2005 10:28 AM | Link to this

Thanks Mr. Moore for writing articles that discuss the other side of the coin. People only want to see things from their point of view and never look at how things affect others, no matter how large or small the group is. Sports is a microcosm of society and judging from all the spewed venom from the comments I’ve read , clearly shows that things haven’t really changed.

By JERRY Curl

August 17, 2005 10:29 AM | Link to this

Sorry Jerry, you make a valid point. I was a photography major so I really could care less about my Grammar. I spent my time at UGA taking pictures and banging hot chicks!

By Bill

August 17, 2005 10:29 AM | Link to this

In response to Iconoclast…

“Irish are part of the dominate EuroAmerican culture and cannot begin to understand the effects of ethnic discrimination and prejudice because it is simply something they have not experienced”

I have a simple question…are you an idiot? If you are going to start with a history lesson, let’s check out the history first please. Have a clue what NINA stands for? No, it’s not a female name, it means “No Irish Need Apply.” Look it up, and learn something.

The Irish have faced plenty of discrimination in this country, not to mention their own (at the hands of the British).

Here’s the deal…names of sports teams have absolutely zero relevance. They are nothing more than tradition and a way to identify a team. Get over yourself. Please also stop throwing around the “closeminded” comments and such.

By the way, I’m from Mississippi, and I’d love to watch you liberal crackheads attempt to change Ole Miss’s mascot (it’s the Rebel, complete with the Stars and Bars).

Oh, and here’s a quote for ya, one a like a little better than that one by OWH: “I still believe in liberalism today as much as I ever did, but, oh, there was a happy time when I believed in liberals…” G. K. Chesterton

By Vic Correll

August 17, 2005 10:32 AM | Link to this

If Native Americans should be offended by any American symbol I would think that it would be the American flag. Under the stars and stripes we stole their land, enslaved them, and murdered them by the thousands. By that same argument, Japaneese Americans and German Americans should also be offended by our American flag since we whipped them into submission during WWII while proudly waving our flag. Why don’t we just abandon our national symbol (we’d hate to offend anyone!) and take on the rainbow flag that represents homosexuality (that flag might offend people who are color blind) or, better yet, lets just raise the white flag of surrender as our new symbol… I, like the majority of Americans, am sick and tired of hearing the whining and complaining of a select few and I realize that the media plays it up to make it seem like there are literally millions and millions of people who are offended by certain symbols when the truth is, it is probably more like a few hundred or even a thousand. Welcome to the United States of the Offended!!!

By MJ4UF

August 17, 2005 10:35 AM | Link to this

What ever Ms. Smith. . YOU SUCK!

By Pensmoke

August 17, 2005 10:37 AM | Link to this

The majority of the comments here are no surprise to me. It’s obvious that the writers are your typical middle aged beer guzzling sports fanatic white men who could care less about anything that doesn’t affect them. Your responses are so predictable guys, try to come better than that. Comparing Indian people to animals,leprechauns, etc. Can you not come up with a better set of lies and nonsensical ramblings to try to justify your disregard for how Indian people feel? Come on, you guys have to do better than that. You are more than likely a bunch of culturally dead fools who have nothing better to follow in life than a sports team, because you have no culture to be proud of.

By sam

August 17, 2005 10:43 AM | Link to this

Only a fool would equate slaves to mascots.Terence you should be ashamed of yourself .I being a black man, am deeply offended by such a statement and if you gave any thought to it , you should be too . I can’t believe that you of all people would write such a thing ….Think about it

By Charles

August 17, 2005 11:04 AM | Link to this

First, Moore you’re an idiot (no offense intended). Robert E. Lee had no slaves. When he married his wealthy, slave-holding wife he freed all of her slaves as was legal under the laws at that time. Thus, Lee freed over 200 slaves while Lincoln freed none. Now, who was the “Great Emancipator”?

Second, Native Americans are not truly native. If anything, they are the first immigrants (as is recognized by Canada who refers to the Indian tribes as the First Nations) as they came across the land bridge from Asia fifteen thousand years ago.

Third, being of a particular descent, I am offended and reject your calling me Irish which is an English name for my people. I am Iceni and if you have any true sensitivity to my culture, you will refer to me as such.

Fourth, stupid is as stupid does. When the entire Seminole nation not only has no problem with the FSU Seminoles but actually endorses the usage, those who are not involved should butt out. As I understand, this situation applies also to the Chippewas. Can you say “outside agitator”?

Fifth, mascots are not demeaning. When I played sports in high school, we were the Highlanders. Rather than demeaning or making fun of the Scottish clans, we celebrated, studied and were thrilled to be (if only by association) a part of them. I was and am proud to have been a Highlander.

Sixth, how is a mascot different than a totem? If a totem can be a revered symbol of a First Nations people, why can’t a mascot be revered also. How is that demeaning except in certain “intellectual” parlors in Midtown and New York City. I don’t think UGA whichever-number-he-is feels demeaned or scorned.

Seventh, ultimately you people (you know who you are) will succeed in finding a victimhood for every conceivable group. The logical conclusion to this is the fact that there will be no more victims whatsoever. No victims, no charity, no outreach to help people who are what once was truly called victims. A sad state of affairs; much like your column.

By John

August 17, 2005 11:13 AM | Link to this

I read a couple of these responses, and saw that they are the usual stock reponses. But I thought I’d respond to Bill S.

“It’ll be a truly sad day when Notre Dame can’t be the Fighting Irish,”

The Irish are not a minority in this country, do not have the ultra-sensitive feelings of minorities, and are very low on the PC totem pole. Your Fighting Irish are secure as the Notre Dame team name. Besides, Fighting Irish is not a hateful racial slur, like Redskins for example.

” the Montreal Hockey team can’t be the Candians,”

Canadians are not a race.

“the Minnesota football team can’t be the Vikings,”

Not a hateful racial slur.

“and the USA Olympic team can’t be the Americans.”

Read above comment on Canadians.

“Will Cleveland no longer be the Browns,

The name comes from Paul Brown.

” and Atlanta no longer be the Braves (maybe it can be singular)?”

I’ve never seen anything particularly wrong with Braves, but by today’s PC standards (especially when it comes to blacks) the name would’ve been history long ago if it referred to a blacks instead of Native Americans.

“Get a grip, it’s sports.”

Sure, it’s sports. But would you or the columnest have a problem with Washington N****? Anyone would be crucified today for even suggesting such a name, but the sham that is political correctness says that the similar name, Redskin, is just fine. It still astounds me that the Washington Redskin name is still around (and it is rightfully offensive to Native Americans; and many group have tried to get the name changed. But the complaints have been ignored. So much for equality in America….

By a native american

August 17, 2005 11:17 AM | Link to this

In response to Doc. So you think leprechauns are real? You see no fault in using real people as objects for your amusement versus imaginary creatures? Ignorance is alive and well in America, and you just proved it…

By Pensmoke

August 17, 2005 11:25 AM | Link to this

The majority of the comments here are no surprise to me. It’s obvious that the writers are your typical middle aged beer guzzling sports fanatic white men who could care less about anything that doesn’t affect them. Your responses are so predictable guys, try to come better than that. Comparing Indian people to animals,leprechauns, etc. Can you not come up with a better set of lies and nonsensical ramblings to try to justify your disregard for how Indian people feel? Come on, you guys have to do better than that. You are more than likely a bunch of culturally dead fools who have nothing better to follow in life than a sports team, because you have no culture to be proud of.

By Spartan

August 17, 2005 11:27 AM | Link to this

Okay, all of you empathetic souls. Fill me in. How does an Indian name associated with some University’s athletics program affect anything in anyone’s life? Why does it hurt their feelings? Why should I care? Expain it to me people. It’s a shame that there was a genocide committed against your people, but nothing now is going to fix that. Move on. Enjoy your short time and stop worrying about inconsequential nonsense.

By Braves fan

August 17, 2005 11:33 AM | Link to this

I live in Cherokee County, but I’ve never heard anyone say that it was offensive to be named such. What is offensive is what our country did to native americans. Why don’t we address that instead of some silly mascot?

By Matthew Cafaro

August 17, 2005 11:37 AM | Link to this

Man, I miss the pay site. At least it kept most of the great unwashed away.

Mr. Moore, you’re right, and you’re so wrong (like usual).

Redskins is offensive. Good on Miami of OH for changing it, and bad on Washington for not.

All of the other names… Braves, Warriors, Indians, Seminoles… NOT offensive.

Your interview subject is an idiot if he believes that if one person finds something offensive it should change. I don’t care what race, religion, or gender he is. Stupid is as stupid does, and that statement is beyond idiocy in its intent and meaning.

There are shades of gray in this life. There are also pretty strong contrasts of black and white, right and wrong. Your suposition about slaves, right on.

You comparing slavery to the use of Indian names in mascots is about as wrong headed and ridiculous as your offensive story about Jackie Robinson and how baseball is racist because there aren’t enough black AMERICANS, as you know, opposed to all of the players with dark skin pigmentation from the Caribbean and Latin Countries, not to mention the Asian countries.

You still cannot see the forrest for the trees, and neither can many of the Native American peoples in this country who object to the RESPECTFULL use of Indian names and imagery as mascots. Chief Wahoo… very bad. Cleveland Indians… not bad. Redskins… offensive. Seminoles… NOT OFFENSIVE.

John, you’re a hypocrite. Either you take a stand, and have it apply equally, or you don’t take a stand. If you sit there and agree with this ridiculousness, then YES, you should also comdemn the use of “Fighting Irish.” Otherwise, you are nothing more tha a hypocrite. You shouldn’t care who is low on the PC totem pole. It’s either right, or it’s wrong.

Me, like I said, it’s shades of gray. But those of you who want to take a stand on this, you either take a stand on EVERYTHING, or you take a stand on nothing. And John, for you to claim that the Irish werne’t or aren’t discriminated against, well… go read a history book. Now, it wasn’t as bad, relatively, as slavery or the removal of the Indians, but they were discriminated against.

Once again, unless those of you are willing tot ake a stand against EVERYTHING, including mascot names like the Fighting Irish, than you ALL, and Mr. Moore especially, are nothing more, and nothing less than HYPOCRITES.

By a native american

August 17, 2005 11:42 AM | Link to this

Spartan.. how about everytime Chief Illini does he stupid demeaning dance and dressed as a chief (someone considered a leader to us as in ‘commander-in chief’, the president to you). How about they adopt the name ‘The Popes’? What could be a better image for strength and courage? You could have someone dressed in the robes and dance around like a fool, throwing holy water on the crowd! Wouldn’t that be great? Oops! Did I offend anyone?

By Spartan

August 17, 2005 12:00 PM | Link to this

We had a baseball team called the Senators, and I think there’s also a hockey team by that name. I don’t think anyone takes offense. I’m surprised there isn’t a Presidents team in all honesty. There are Monarchs, or have been anyway. The Crusaders with a knight-like mascot would be more appropriate. Popes don’t tend to fight. Again, you don’t argue why it matters. You simply assume that anyone would be offended by it. Why do you find a guy play-acting as an Indian offensive? Did Daniel Day-Lewis’ portrayal of an Indian in Last of the Mohicans offend you? Or did the fact that it idealized your forefathers make it okay?

By Greg

August 17, 2005 12:01 PM | Link to this

Hey, it’s just human nature—most people just don’t care how racially insensitive comments and representations affect members of minority groups. Also, every member of a minority group won’t be offended by such things—everyone thinks differently and makes up their own mind. More human nature. And that’s fine—everyone’s entitled to their own opinion.

However, this issue isn’t about politcal correctness—it’s about simple respect for different people, their cultures and their heritages. Which it seems, the average American does not have, and does not deem important enough to consider. From politicians like Jeb Bush, to sporstwriters like Dan Wetzel, and including many readers of the AJC. Where do the vast majority of white American men (sorry, but it’s the truth) get this misplaced sense of entitlement from?

That was a rhetorical question, by the way. :o) American history is based on the oppression and degradation of different races and cultures, and this is where that sense of superiority comes from. You can get mad about what I’m writing if you want, but anger won’t change the truth. Read some accurate and objective history books to educate yourself further.

Just because you don’t think this kind of respect for others makes a difference doesn’t mean that it’s not important to others. Americans (whether in the majority or as part of a minority) will always stand up for their right to be represented fairly and with respect, if they feel the need to do so. You have the individual right to agree or disgree with anyone’s position, of course.

My personal recommendation to those of you who just can’t understand why it’s wrong to degrade any group of people by using them as a mascot: You don’t have to agree or understand, or even care. Just don’t whine about the NCAA FINALLY taking a stand on this issue, after decades of turning a blind eye and a deaf ear to it. You need to let it go, and get over it.

By a native american

August 17, 2005 12:11 PM | Link to this

Daniel Day Lewis was not an indian in the movie. He was white and was adopted by the the chief of the tribe as his son. Get your facts straight.

By John Chandler

August 17, 2005 12:20 PM | Link to this

Is it possible in the great State of Georgia (or Alabama, etc.) that the same people who demand that the State fly the battle flag of the Confederacy, a symbol that represented a group that almost destroyed the United States, are the same folks who refuse to respect the Native American wishes to have their heritage respected? It seems to me that the absolute least we can do as a nation is respect the people who inhabited this country before we stole it from them and tried to completely destroy them. It is even more baffling that Institutions of Higher Learning are the greatest offenders!

By NDN

August 17, 2005 12:22 PM | Link to this

The majority of the comments here are no surprise to me. It’s obvious that the writers are your typical middle aged beer guzzling sports fanatic white men who could care less about anything that doesn’t affect them. Your responses are so predictable guys, try to come better than that. Comparing Indian people to animals,leprechauns, etc. Can you not come up with a better set of lies and nonsensical ramblings to try to justify your disregard for how Indian people feel? Come on, you guys have to do better than that. You are more than likely a bunch of culturally dead fools who have nothing better to follow in life than a sports team, because you have no culture to be proud of.

By Mike

August 17, 2005 12:28 PM | Link to this

As an FSU grad and fan, I find it ironic that not one person has been offended by the mascot “Cowboys!” If Indian mascots are offensive, then surely Cowboy mascots must be offensive too.

Lets make the Oklahoma State “Cowboys” and other Universities using the Cowboy mascot change their mascots!!! This is just plain silly!

By Jim Nichols

August 17, 2005 12:34 PM | Link to this

I’m a proud ‘55 Valdosta Wildcat, and a confident ‘60 UGA Bulldog…But if not, I’d rather be a Brave, or a Warrior, than a Horned Toad.

By NDN

August 17, 2005 12:35 PM | Link to this

A Cowboy is not a race of people. It is a profession. You can choose whether to be a Cowboy or not. You can’t choose your race. Man the comparisons are getting lamer and lamer. You guys are trying your best aren’t you?

By Eddie

August 17, 2005 12:39 PM | Link to this

“Theoretically, if you find even one person that thinks something like that is offensive, it should change.”

That’s the most inane statement I’ve ever heard. If that were true, nothing would exist. Nothing. There will always be one person who thinks something is offensive. Many think Terence Moore is offensive, so should AJC change him out?

By Matt

August 17, 2005 12:47 PM | Link to this

All you noble people trying to protect and respect people’s feelings, be aware that there will be no end to this once the ball gets rolling. See the current rage by PETA wanting South Carolina to drop the Gamecock nickname and understand the mascot issue is a very slippery slope. I think in 20 years mascots will be virtually non-existant in any form if this NCAA ruling gets traction.

By a native american

August 17, 2005 12:48 PM | Link to this

Closing comment. If you want to honor NA so much, may I suggest you start by teaching the real history of America in schools? Teach the truth about how entire villages were wiped out, murdered by the colonist by giving them blankets infected with smallpox. How about colonists trying to use NA for slaves in the North East and when that didn’t work they forced them on boats to be taken to the Bahamas or back to Europe as trophies. Let’s look at the systematic genocide of NA by Andrew Jackson, Custer, and others. Lets teach about present day conditions on almost every reservation in America with drug abuse, elders not having medical care, lack of funds to fix this because the government has taken money due us by leases and business deals and locked it up in the courts. Corruption is so rampant in this country and you don’t even know the extent of it all. Canada isn’t much better. But you want troops to die half way around the world to protects citizens right in a country that doesn’t want us there, but turn a blind eye to what goes on here under your noses. The truth hurts, eh? Now imagine having to endure it for the past 300 years.

By Mike

August 17, 2005 12:53 PM | Link to this

While it is true that Cowboy is not a race, it can be charcterized as offensive to a particular group of people. Therfore, if we use Mr. Moore’s theory that, “if one person is offended,” then we must change the mascot.

Lame is as lame does!!! If FSU cannot use their mascot, then no other Universities should be allowed to use their mascot, as long as one person objects.

By a native american

August 17, 2005 12:55 PM | Link to this

Matt.. Now you are comparing us to an animal? we are human and there are different standards. By your own admission, you see us as no different than a wild animal. This is the problem that needs to be corrected.

By Warclub

August 17, 2005 12:59 PM | Link to this

The majority of the comments here are no surprise to me. It’s obvious that the writers are your typical middle aged beer guzzling sports fanatic white men who could care less about anything that doesn’t affect them. Your responses are so predictable guys, try to come better than that. Comparing Indian people to animals,leprechauns, etc. Can you not come up with a better set of lies and nonsensical ramblings to try to justify your disregard for how Indian people feel? Come on, you guys have to do better than that. You are more than likely a bunch of culturally dead fools who have nothing better to follow in life than a sports team, because you have no culture to be proud of.

By Roger Vann

August 17, 2005 01:07 PM | Link to this

As a Native American Indian, I cannot help but be offended by the Stars & Stripes. This symbol represents the attempted genocide of Native American Indians. Please remove it, but don’t mess with my Brave’s!

By Jason

August 17, 2005 01:09 PM | Link to this

Amazing how these “sensitive” P.C. people are only sensitive to whom they see fit and are completely closed-minded to anyone else:

“The Irish are not a minority in this country, do not have the ultra-sensitive feelings of minorities, and are very low on the PC totem pole. Your Fighting Irish are secure as the Notre Dame team name. Besides, Fighting Irish is not a hateful racial slur, like Redskins for example.”

I didn’t realize that “minorities” were genetically predisposed towards being “ultra-sensitive”. Are you sure this isn’t just people who want to exploit them telling them they should be “ultra-sensitive” so that they can blame any personal flaws on others and therefore not advance themselves through their own accomplishments? Also, how dare you say the Irish concerns are any less-viable than anyone elses? I also find it funny that while arguing for native american’s rights you use the term “totem pole” freely. Totem poles were sacred objects to native americans and you should be ashamed to throw the word out without any second thought. How is the “Fighting Irish” not worse than the “Seminoles”. If naming your team after the Seminoles is offensive becaues it brands the group as being vicious, violent, or what have you, then shouldn’t actually labelling a group as violent be even more offensive?

“Canadians are not a race.”

Seminoles aren’t a race either, they’re a people group within a race. And believe it or not, some liberal professors are actually trying to tell people now that race is a social construction (and gender…odd, I was pretty sure gender is genetic…) if you want to take it that farther.

“Not a hateful racial slur.” (Vikings)

Great justification. So now “Seminole” is a hateful racial slur? Yeah, that’s not offensive. “Redskins” could be considered a hateful racial slur, but there is very little hatred towards native americans nowadays and the term has lost nearly all of its racial context. But I can see how someone could be offended by it.

“Read above comment on Canadians.” (Americans)

Read above comment on Seminoles. And “Americans” could very well be considered offensive. What about those on the team who hail from other lands, or who prefer to be referred to by their ancestry rather than their current country of citizenry?

As for your last point, I agree that out of all the names (Seminoles, warriors, braves, etc) Redskins is the most offensive. However, do you really think when someone says “redskins” they’re intentionally using it as a derogatory term? “redskin” is no longer used as a derogatory term for native americans (although I’m sure there are still a few who do) in this country, isn’t that a good thing? And if it were intended to be a derogatory term, why on earth would someone name their team after it? I certainly wouldn’t want to play on a team if it were named the “morons”.

The point is, this isn’t the NCAA’s concern. If you’re offended by it, bring it up with the schools. If that doesn’t work, take it to court. If that still doesn’t work, maybe you should reconsider whether it’s something worth getting offended about. All getting offended does is waste time and energy that could be put to better use.

Also, whoever said that the possibility of not having teams named after animals is ridiculous, I beg to differ. PETA has been on a rampage against anything they can get their hands on with no regard for logic or reason. They would love nothing more than to have the bears, cougars, cardinals, and lions of the sports world made illegal.

The worst thing to come of all the political correctness going on is the immense waste of money, time, and manhours that has gone into frivolous. With the time and money spent on trying to change team names and ridiculous lawsuits (my hot coffee’s too hot), millions of people could have been fed and given medical attention. But no, we have to worry about ourselves and our own hurt feelings. Why don’t you look at yourself instead of others, and consider for a second how selfish these actions are.

By Warclub

August 17, 2005 01:12 PM | Link to this

“As a Native American Indian, I cannot help but be offended by the Stars & Stripes. This symbol represents the attempted genocide of Native American Indians. Please remove it, but don’t mess with my Brave’s!”

So now white guys are posting comments as Indians, huh. Nice try. And using a last name common with Cherokees, Vann. Pretty good attempt bro, but try harder.

By steve

August 17, 2005 01:14 PM | Link to this

no one has framed this issue better than this man in his open letter to the ncaa:

An Open Letter to the NCAA ’ August 12, 2005

CHARLES E. KUPCHELLA President University of North Dakota

An Open Letter to the NCAA:

The quiet serenity of our beautiful campus was disturbed early August 5 by news reports that the NCAA had decided to address the Indian nickname issue. The early reports were unclear; the words mascot, nickname, and logo were used interchangeably, and the loaded words “abusive� and “hostile� were invoked without definition and without any real clear idea as to how they were being applied. We don’t have a mascot, and our logo was designed by a very well-respected American Indian artist. We couldn’t imagine that these reports would apply to us.

Later, we saw the full release. While it looked like the action taken by the NCAA was insulting, and a flagrant abuse of power, we knew that good, well-meaning people were involved in the decision and we wanted to consider our reaction carefully.

We were initially stunned by the charge “abusive� and “hostile,� and then angry. We reflected and gave it a week before drafting this response. I must admit to sinking at one point during the past week to the notion that my Association was guilty of “political correctness run amok� as suggested by some papers.

We want to file an appeal, but first we need to know the basis for your decisions. We need the answers to some questions first, in other words.

I do not wish to take up the issue, here, of any absolute or general “correctness� of using American Indian imagery. Those on both sides of the issue have long ago made up their minds, and no amount of talking over many years seems to have moved anyone from one side of the issue to the other. Suffice it to say, some choose to be insulted by the use of these terms; others are befuddled by this reaction to what they consider to be an honor. What I would like to take up here is a matter of the appropriateness and legality of the NCAA’s action. I mean to take up the issue of whether the NCAA has gone over the edge and out of bounds in the action announced on Friday.

Is it the use of Indian names, images, and/or mascots to which you are opposed? If it is all of the above, which logos, images, and mascots do you indict by your announcement? Is it only certain ones? As I said, a very respected Indian artist designed and created a logo for the University. The logo is not unlike those found on United States coins and North Dakota highway patrol cars and highway signs. So we can’t imagine that the use of this image is “abusive� or “hostile� in any sense of these words.

Is it the use of the names of tribes that you find hostile and abusive?

Not long ago I took a trip to make a proposal to establish an epidemiological program to support American Indian health throughout the Upper Great Plains. On this trip I left a state called North Dakota. (Dakota is one of the names the indigenous people of this region actually call themselves.) I flew over South Dakota, crossing the Sioux River several times, and finally landed in Sioux City, Iowa, just south of Sioux Falls, South Dakota. The airplane in which I traveled that day was called a Cheyenne.

I think you should find my confusion here understandable, since obviously if we were to call our teams “The Dakotans,� we would actually be in more direct violation of what apparently you are trying to establish as a rule, even though this is the name of our state. This situation, of course, is not unlike that faced by our sister institution in Illinois.

Is it only when some well-meaning people object to the use of the names of tribes? If so, what standard did you use to decide where the line from acceptable to “hostile� and “abusive� is crossed? We note that you exempted a school with a certain percentage of American Indian students. We have more than 400 American Indian students here. Who decided that a certain percentage was okay, but our percentage was not? Where is the line between okay and hostile/abusive?

We have two Sioux tribes based here in North Dakota. One has, in fact, objected to our use of the name, “Sioux,� applied to our sports teams. The other said it was okay, provided that we took steps to ensure that some good comes of it, in educating people and students about the cultural heritage of this region. This mix of opinions is apparently not unlike that faced by our sister institution in Florida.

Is it only about applying names to sports teams? If so, would this be extended to the use of the names of all people, or is it just American Indians? Why would you exempt the “Fighting Irish� from your consideration, for example? Or “Vikings,� which are really fighting Scandinavians, or “Warriors,� which I suppose could be described as fighting anybodies? Wouldn’t it be “discrimination on account of race� to have a policy that applies to Indians but not to Scandinavians or the Irish, or anybody else for that matter? This seems especially profound in light of a letter to me from President Brand (8/9/05) in which he, in very broad-brush fashion and inconsistent with the NCAA’s recent much narrower pronouncement, said, “we believe that mascots, nicknames or images deemed hostile or abusive in terms of race, ethnicity or national origin should not be visible at our events.� (my emphasis)

As to the flagrant abuse of power question, I want to make sure I have this straight. We’ve recently built some magnificent facilities costing well over $100 million, under rules permitting us to host championship tournaments and otherwise participate fully in NCAA sanctioned activities, in which the very architecture of the building incorporates names and images of American Indian people. Do you really expect us now to spend large amounts of money to erase what we consider to be respectful images and names of Indian people who inhabited this region in the interest of the NCAA Executive Committee?

Hostile and abusive??

Help me understand why you think “hostile and abusive� applies to us. We have more than 25 separate programs in support of American Indian students here receiving high-end university educations. Included among these is an “Indians Into Medicine� program, now 30+ years running, that has generated 20 percent of all American Indian doctors in the United States. We have a similar program in Nursing, one in Clinical Psychology, and we are about to launch an “Indians into Aviation� program in conjunction with our world-class Odegard School of Aerospace Sciences. I am very proud when I visit reservations in our state to see that a large number of the teachers, doctors, Tribal College presidents, and other leaders are graduates of the University of North Dakota.

Do you really expect us to host a tournament in which these names and images are covered in some way that would imply that we are ashamed of them?

Concerning tournaments already scheduled: Is the NCAA taking the position that it can actually unilaterally modify a contract already made? Perhaps the charge (sometimes heard) that the NCAA exhibits too much of the arrogance that comes from its status as a monopoly – apart from the question of whether it’s an effective organization – does indeed have a basis.

If the NCAA has all this power, why not use it to restore intercollegiate athletics to the ideal of sportsmanship by decoupling intercollegiate athletics from its corruption by big budgets? Why not use the power to put a halt to the out-of-control financial arms race that threatens to corrupt even higher education itself?

Yes, I know that in theory the NCAA is actually an association, and that UND is a member of it, and therefore it’s really we who are doing all of these things to ourselves, or failing to do all of these things ourselves. But is the NCAA really a democratic organization? Why did we not put these issues to a vote by all member schools??

In his USA Today essay, Myles Brand proclaimed that this is a teachable moment, suggesting that the NCAA decision is “aimed at initiating a discussion on a national basis about how American Indians have been characterized … .â€? Great idea! Let’s have the discussion – one that we should have had before this ruling was handed down, one that actually includes American Indians and puts this in the perspective of all that is important to them at this time in history. And while we are at it, why not also address the state of intercollegiate athletics – whether or not student-athletes at some schools are being exploited, and whether or not there is an out-of-control financial “arms raceâ€? threatening the integrity of higher education itself.

In considering how to appeal, we find it exasperating that we can’t tell what the basis for your initial decision was and how you singled us out in the first place. In a letter from Myles Brand to me (8/9/05) he suggests that we could, in an appeal, argue that our symbols or mascots do not create a hostile or abusive environment. But his letter also seems to suggest that as long as some think the environment is hostile, case closed.

By the way, the last time this issue was stirred up on our campus, a formal charge was made to the Office for Civil Rights that the use of our logo or nickname created a hostile environment here at the University. The Office for Civil Rights sent a half-dozen people to our campus. They fanned out across campus and after more than a week here, found no such thing. Did the Executive Committee find some things they missed, perhaps? Or does a committee in Indianapolis trump the Office for Civil Rights here, on the ground, in North Dakota?

Finally, I expect that we will file an appeal, because should we wish to take this issue to court, the courts would undoubtedly ask if we have exhausted all administrative remedies. Please send us the appropriate application forms, and give us an indication of how the appeal will be heard and when. If the timing of this appeal were such that your deadline occurs before the appeal is resolved, we would ask that the deadline be put off, otherwise we may well have to go to the expense of seeking an injunction halting the imposition of these policies until all of our questions can be answered satisfactorily.

We thank you in advance for considering our questions.

Sincerely,

Charles E. Kupchella President

CEK/c

By Dave

August 17, 2005 01:26 PM | Link to this

While I understand that no group of people ever wants to be singled out and portrayed by a negative stereotype in public, I think the flap over Native American Mascots is a bit misguided. The arguments given by this column and others make it sound as if people buy into a mascot as something more than a symbol. Mascots are just that, symbols of a team’s pride, dedication, and spirit. Teams don’t choose mascots because they want to make fun of someone or something, were that the case we’d see teams called “the nerds” or “the rednecks”. A team’s name and mascot are meant to build that team, that name and that image into something more than it is and give the followers of that team pride. No school or team ever chose a Native American as its mascot because they wanted to make fun or degrade Native Americans. Were the majority of the people in this country not half crazed with ‘sensitivity’ they would see that naming a group, an animal, or an object as a team mascot is a badge of honor. It says “We love our team, we think it’s the best around, and this (group,animal,object) represents all that we see that is good and brave and powerful about our team. Leave it to Americans to dig an insult out of the highest form of flattery.

By Karen Walker

August 17, 2005 01:29 PM | Link to this

AJC Sports Plus is gone. Ding dong, the concept is dead …

By doc

August 17, 2005 01:29 PM | Link to this

you still dont get it folks. i can see the point of the indian taken in context but the fighting irish are not leprechans to people that know and understand the origin of the name, notre dame fighting irish. they are a very proud and rebellious group of people that have been ostracized and abused for their religion and ethnicity. does any of that sound familiar to you? they still are suffering their plight in a state that may be as divided as the gaza strip where there are continued abuses. all this while mr. moore genuflects to the dome whenever there is a discussion of his proud alma mater.

if you want to elevate others consciousness please begin to break free of your own ignorance. i am really more concerned about the plight of homeless, the abuse of black young men who take the field every weekend who wont end up with an education and end up on the streets themselves. these are just as relevant to talk about and for the ncaa to change rather than distract us with its social relevance to change the names of mascots. give me a break.

now mr. “fighting irish” moore i didnt see you at the soup line today where the black male represented over 95% of the participants. lets drop the name calling and really be relevant. do you realize how many might be offended by the image of the fighting irish? it is not a simple leprechan, which is not how it started out in the tough days of heisman. mr. moore do you continue to think you are as socially responsible as you consider yourself today? if so you are still in the land of no offense intended.

By Warclub

August 17, 2005 01:31 PM | Link to this

http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/handerso/peoplenotmascots/

By mike esther

August 17, 2005 01:44 PM | Link to this

Gee Mr. Moore, If I am offended by looking at an ugly person, can I get them banned by the NCAA too? What poppycock, b.s., statement are they really making with this? I think they are telling us they are really, really stupid, and have way too much time on their hands. Get a life!! I am so happy that you have become so politically correct, you need to get a life too! Mike Esther Savannah, Ga.

By pacific islander

August 17, 2005 01:52 PM | Link to this

I leave you with this - in Mr. Cafaro’s defense, he made at least one good point - that much of this is argument is grey. Indeed, some mascots are, based on history and general understanding of language, offensive. Others are not. It seems that whether one takes offense depends largely on perspective. Here is an example - in Hawaii, the U of H football team started doing the “haka” - a traditional New Zealand Maori war dance - a few years ago before its football games. This dance has also been performed by the New Zealand All Blacks Rugby team for years. This, despite the fact that few members of the All Blacks (and I daresay none of U of H) are Maori. But for some reason, noone minds. Keeping in minds the above rules regarding the use of logic, I leave you with this intriguing possibility. Now - discuss!

By ItsNotThatComplicated

August 17, 2005 01:54 PM | Link to this

The only people whose opinions matter in this situation is those who are offended. The Indian people. The opinions of middle aged cultureless white beer guzzling pot bellied sports fanatics counts for nothing. You guys tried to pull the Seminoles out in defense, but the leaders of the Seminole tribe are sell-outs. They must be getting something from the people at FSU in the way of monetary compensation or support. The majority of Native people ARE offended by mascots that belittle and make a mockery of a whole race of people. Joy Harjo is a hero for what she is trying to do.

By Spartan

August 17, 2005 01:55 PM | Link to this

Wow, you guys have really opened my eyes on this. I used to think it was a meaningless issue pushed by an extremely minute percentage of the population. However, based on what I’ve read here, the percentage seems to be higher than I thought.

By doug

August 17, 2005 02:03 PM | Link to this

The real travesty here is Terrance Moore’s continued and relentless exploitation of the issue of racism to accommodate his own welfare and that of The AJC. Moore is just a microcosm of what we should come to expect from our supposed news sources. He isn’t worried about mascots or slavery or even sports. He’s worried about keeping his high paying job. That’s something he can do best by stirring things up enough to garner the kind of a response he’s getting here, thereby selling newspapers. It’s ironic that he claims to “see clearly” now when in fact he remains unwittingly “enslaved” by voluntarily succumbing to the expectations of his superiors at AJC (that of course assumes he has a modicum of concern about racism at all).

Most unfortunate is that this kind of sensationalism in mass communications actually exacerbates the issue of racism. Like Chicken Little and the “sky is falling”, continually playing the race card regardless of how accurately it applies dilutes the reality of racism as it still exists. Instead of helping, Moore and others like him that cash in on the subject raise the ire of those who are otherwise sympathetic towards the issue. By the same token, he makes excuses for weaker minded minorities who would just as soon complain as be held accountable in any way. In the era of modern racism, Moore, The AJC and the like are as big a danger to minorities as anything else there is.

By Spartan

August 17, 2005 02:06 PM | Link to this

ItsNotThatComplicate - What if I profess to be offended by their offendedness. Would my opinion then be useful in this debate? I take offense at your use of the phrase middle-aged because many of my ancestors were wiped out in the plauges of the middle ages. Does that give my opinion more weight? I didn’t realize taking offense served as a magical cloak in argumentation. Now that I know I will be sure to employ the trick whenever logic doesn’t work.

By ItsNotThatComplicated

August 17, 2005 02:14 PM | Link to this

“By Spartan August 17, 2005 02:06 PM | Link to this ItsNotThatComplicate - What if I profess to be offended by their offendedness. Would my opinion then be useful in this debate? I take offense at your use of the phrase middle-aged because many of my ancestors were wiped out in the plauges of the middle ages. Does that give my opinion more weight? I didn’t realize taking offense served as a magical cloak in argumentation. Now that I know I will be sure to employ the trick whenever logic doesn’t work.”

That was just stupid. I was talking about middle aged men, not the middle Ages. You guys are trying every lame attempt to make light of Indian peoples right to not be degraded aren’t you? Keep making all the lame excuses you want. There is no justification for using Indian people as mascots.

By A MODERATE GUY

August 17, 2005 02:15 PM | Link to this

AFTER READING MR. MOORE’S COLUMN TODAY, I SEE HOW IT RELATES TO AN ATHEIST’S VIEW OF THE BIBLE-SELDOM READ-NEVER BELIEVED!!!!

By SAD, SAD

August 17, 2005 02:26 PM | Link to this

This is sad, sad, sad. I find it funny how “you people” take every chance you can get to tell other people to get over something and “you people” can’t get past the civil war. Many of you are really racist, let’s get that out of the way. You want to step on amything and everybody that is not you. What right, study that word RIGHT, as in human rights, does any institution have to even come close to crossing the line with a mascot..One thing you folks forget is this country has a history of being a little less than fair, and you want to sit here and say it’s only a game or mascot. Were well over $100K blacks lynched throughout the south bcuz it was a sport…Yes, your ancestors treated it like a sporting event, complete with your Sunday’s best and little kids. It seems that you are the only ones who’ve forgotten your horrible past. The rest of us haven’t. It’s way more than just a mascot….It’s the message. Give em hell Terrence…

By Stephen

August 17, 2005 02:27 PM | Link to this

If we changed everytime one person was offended we couldn’t do anything in this country.

By Warren

August 17, 2005 02:30 PM | Link to this

I was so glad to read about the NCAA coming down against those discrimnatory insulting mascots. I can remember living in Rochester, New York and going to see a hockey game played by the Rocherster Amerks (short for Americans). I was never so disgusted. Here I live in a politically correct country and there are people yelling for and supporting a team called the “Amerks”. I mean Americans have done so many cruel and evil things in history and they still do to this day, like make their enemies wear ladies panties as head gear. It would be so much more civilized to cut the persons head off and film it so their family can watch it over and over. No I’m offended to think an Amerk go be agressive at all. If this team was really a typical “American” they would pay the other team not to play, after all the Americans are rich and can buy anything! Heaven forbid for a team to actually try and be competitive be called the Amerks.

We should do away with all mascots. Maybe we could just use colors. Of course any team that really wanted to be an “Amerk” would have to use yellow and if the game wasn’t won in the first 5 minutes they would be required to default because someone might get hurt!

Good column Mr. Moore, you obviously caused people to read and think about what you said and that in itself is quite an accomplishment, regardless of what I think of your words. Thank you.

By ItsNotThatComplicated

August 17, 2005 02:30 PM | Link to this

“This is sad, sad, sad. I find it funny how “you peopleâ€? take every chance you can get to tell other people to get over something and “you peopleâ€? can’t get past the civil war. Many of you are really racist, let’s get that out of the way. You want to step on amything and everybody that is not you. What right, study that word RIGHT, as in human rights, does any institution have to even come close to crossing the line with a mascot..One thing you folks forget is this country has a history of being a little less than fair, and you want to sit here and say it’s only a game or mascot. Were well over $100K blacks lynched throughout the south bcuz it was a sport…Yes, your ancestors treated it like a sporting event, complete with your Sunday’s best and little kids. It seems that you are the only ones who’ve forgotten your horrible past. The rest of us haven’t. It’s way more than just a mascot….It’s the message. Give em hell Terrence”

That’s what I’m talking about. It’s not that they ahve forgotten the past, it’s that they don’t want to think about it. They want everybody else to forget about it though.

By john

August 17, 2005 02:33 PM | Link to this

Mr. Moore, you are a real sap. Reality is going to bite you one day and you will be astounded by your own willful ignorance. Hopefully that will happen sooner than later so that you won’t have to swallow the full harvest of the seeds of discontent and entitlement you currently sow. My sincerest wishes to you for a successful, satisfying and enlightened life. And don’t be too hard on yourself,… we’re all a sap at one time or another. JMc

By Spartan

August 17, 2005 02:34 PM | Link to this

And yet you don’t see why it’s stupid to be offended by a mascot. What’s degrading? The culture of the Indians died more or less, a hundred years ago. For better or worse the white man won the wars. It is exactly the same as some Greek born in Sparta complaining that he is offended by the use of Spartans by Michigan State, as I referred to in an earlier post. Would you take such a claim from a Spartan seriously? Probably not, since it wasn’t white Americans who wiped out their civilization.

By ItsNotThatComplicated

August 17, 2005 02:38 PM | Link to this

quote:

“And yet you don’t see why it’s stupid to be offended by a mascot. What’s degrading? The culture of the Indians died more or less, a hundred years ago. For better or worse the white man won the wars. It is exactly the same as some Greek born in Sparta complaining that he is offended by the use of Spartans by Michigan State, as I referred to in an earlier post. Would you take such a claim from a Spartan seriously? Probably not, since it wasn’t white Americans who wiped out their civilization.”

http://w3.gorge.net/feralcat/Redskin.html

By a native american

August 17, 2005 02:42 PM | Link to this

As a NA, I don’t mind if a team is named after us (within reason). My offense (unless it’s an authentic picture), is with the mascot image or the people who pose as the mascot themselves. That chief Illini crap must die. Interesting how no one would take comments on any of the things I mentioned before. They just keep spouting off about how noble mascots are….

By Spartan

August 17, 2005 02:43 PM | Link to this

I can understand being offended by a racial slur as a mascot name. But, Illini, Utes, Seminoles, etc. are not slurs.

By Robb

August 17, 2005 02:45 PM | Link to this

Mr. Moore, I’ve found many of your columns offensive to me over the years, so maybe you should change……….jobs that is.

This is about the most absurd statement I’ve ever heard: “Theoretically, if you find even one person that thinks something like that is offensive, it should change. In this case, it’s way more than one.â€?

Nothing in this country, or yet the world would ever be decided because no matter what you do, how careful you are, you are going to offend someone.

By a native american

August 17, 2005 02:48 PM | Link to this

Spartan I take offense that you say my culture has died 100 yrs ago. I am proof that it’s still here. Let’s just say you stop recognizing we were a threat 100 years ago and leave it at that. Our culture is still alive and well. I suggest you visit a local powwow and see for yourself. I invite you to see one of ours on the East Coast.

By Sad, Sad

August 17, 2005 02:52 PM | Link to this

Let’s stop beating around the bush, some people can’t stand not getting there way. This really is a minor issue. For example I assume some of you on here are married, if you say or do something that your wifes takes the wrong way, what happens ? You take it back, even if it remotely comes off wrong you have to take it back. Apply that situation here, ah ha, but you can’t bcuz it’s us agianst them. And we can’t let them win eventhough; them/the NCAA are pretty much a part of the “majority establishment” are threatening the way you think. Admit it, America the beautiful has wronged a lot of people, if you can admit that and get past this minor mascot deal, you’ll be sleeping on the couch for eternity if you can follow that. This is what really bothers me, holding on to the mascot is really not the issue. It wouldn’t take long for the new names to take hold and the issue is overwith, or is it you just don’t want anybody else to gain even an inch, even if it’s piece of mind, by not seeing there culture drug through the ground on tv.

By a native american

August 17, 2005 02:54 PM | Link to this

Spartan Once again you are proving your ignorance. It’s not the name that is offensive, it’s the characters used and the halftime mascot which is. How can you say having someone dancing around like a fool who isn’t native but dressed like one and has no knowledge of the dance he’s trying to copy an honor?

By Jason

August 17, 2005 03:00 PM | Link to this

One point nobody’s brought up is that maybe they just don’t want to be associated with a team that loses :D Although Florida State seems to win quite often….maybe they don’t want to be associated with cheaters. Yes, I am being facetious.

By Spartan

August 17, 2005 03:03 PM | Link to this

NA - I used more or less because I realize that some traditions have been kept, but your people had a vibrant, mostly nomadic civilization for thousands of years, and that simply is no more. I didn’t mean any offense. :-)

By SAD, Sad

August 17, 2005 03:05 PM | Link to this

I wonder how some of you would like it, if some asian, hispanic, indian or African American team had a mascot that dressed in overalls with motor-oil spilled on them, unshaved with jagged teeth called themselves the Macon Southerners or rednecks? What if the team was white? I’m sure some non-redneck southerner (white) would find it offensive, bcus it didn’t represent him. There’s nothing wrong with the name but what about the image? The whole point to this whole deal is just as MR Moore stated if it affects one person negatively it deserves to be looked at. Offensive images do not matter to most of you bcus it doesn’t affect you. There’s a reason why we as a Society keep having the same argument/discussions. All I keep hearing from the majority is we’re too sensitive and get over it.

By Spartan

August 17, 2005 03:06 PM | Link to this

NA - Where in any of my posts did I claim that it was an honor to have a team nicknamed after your people or tribe? I simply said its a silly thing to get upset over. And for the purposes of comparison, the Michigan State Spartan looks nothing like an actual Spartan.

By a native american

August 17, 2005 03:11 PM | Link to this

Spartan - accepted, thanks. Back to the real issue. Everyone should to focus on the images used and get off of the name. The images are what is offensive. Understand?

By Jason

August 17, 2005 03:11 PM | Link to this

What I have a problem with is not this specific instance (I don’t even like FSU, nor do I care about any of the other teams), but rather the general trend. The problem I see is the NCAA sticking its nose in trying to fix something when it’s not their place to do so. They don’t have the authority to tell the schools “change your mascots”, so they do all they can and say “you can’t play in any championships”. If a large group of people object to a school using their name as their mascot, they should take it up with the school or the courts. Someone who actually has some authority. The NCAA overstepped its bounds.

I completely understand how some kid dancing around on the field dressed up like an Indian would offend someone. I don’t even like it, and I’m not native american at all. But you have to consider that the average intelligent person with a high-school education knows that it’s not a true representation of native americans or their way (or past way) of life. I also realize that half the fans of college sports teams probably DO NOT have a high-school education, but there are a lot more problems with them than what they think of a mascot. Intelligent people don’t need to be spoon-fed their opinions or knowledge (they already know), and unintelligent people won’t accept it anyway, so why waste your time and money?

By J.D.

August 17, 2005 03:12 PM | Link to this

When did it happen where the opinions of the minority of individuals took precedence over the majority? Why are we being constantly bombarded by a few whiny people who apparently don’t have any thing else to do but search for items to complain about? And then when nothing else seems to be winning the case for them it’s claimed to be an ethnic-insensitivity issue?

Stop wasting time trying to champion these people and tell them instead to get a life. It’s high-time somebody did.

By Spartan

August 17, 2005 03:16 PM | Link to this

Aren’t the Nebraska Cornhuskers and their mascot something of a mockery of white rednecks, and aren’t most of the players on that team minorities? Just a thought.

By a native american

August 17, 2005 03:19 PM | Link to this

Spartan It may be silly to you because it’s not your family..If it were reversed would you feel the same? Dumb question because you can’t walk in my moccasins. You have to have known what it feels like to have strangers look at you like you aren’t trusted. Have a guidance councelor tell you in school “no sense in taking honor classes because you won’t be going to college anyway” and try to push you towards a trade. This debate is about just one more insult we are suppose to grin and bear.. and i’ve had enough.

By Spartan

August 17, 2005 03:23 PM | Link to this

NA - I don’t doubt that there is discrimination still. However, work to change the ones that matter (like your honor course example) instead this minor one.

By a native american

August 17, 2005 03:26 PM | Link to this

Jason- This is not a new debate. Yes it has been brought up to the offending schools before. Some have changed their names, some didn’t. Some schools think because they have lots of money and backing they can do whatever they want so the NCAA is giving them a little nudge.. I support them.

By a native american

August 17, 2005 03:27 PM | Link to this

Jason- This is not a new debate. Yes it has been brought up to the offending schools before. Some have changed their names, some didn’t. Some schools think because they have lots of money and backing they can do whatever they want so the NCAA is giving them a little nudge.. I support them. Go honor something else.

By Jay

August 17, 2005 03:33 PM | Link to this

Mr. Moore,

Excellent article! Keep writing and we will keep reading!

By a native american

August 17, 2005 03:34 PM | Link to this

Spartan - If the general consensus does not want to be honored this way, then why continue. Why not honor the Japanese or the Germans? They were defeated by the Americans in WW2. They were tough and courageous fighters, give them a shot.

By Spartan

August 17, 2005 03:39 PM | Link to this

NA - Assuming you’re right about the general consensus, it’s a fair point. I do like the idea of a team named the Wehrmacht.

By Al Burchfield

August 17, 2005 03:59 PM | Link to this

This is another example of the minority ruling the majority. Political correctness out of control. With Six Flags “Gay Day” and Sex in the City on television. It’s hard to believe an Indian mascot offends somebody. I guess it all comes back to Slavery. How a man (Lee) who lived 140 years ago and didn’t think contemporarily like you and I, could be brought up in the same column as Indian Mascots is a reach. If I’ve ever heard one.

By jennifer

August 17, 2005 04:00 PM | Link to this

Wow, who knew the AJC was responsible for prolonging the war and for the loss of lives in Iraq.

Thanks for shedding some light on the subject, will.

By Marc Lucier

August 17, 2005 04:14 PM | Link to this

Well now. here’s a debate I can sink the ol’ choppers into. (Sorry about saying choppers, I wasn’t trying to reference the Tomahawk motion!)See? that’s what I mean. We can’t even speak anymore w/o somebody getting hacked off. BTW,I fought as a Marine infantryman in the first Gulf War precisely so a liberal rag, or a right wing radio host would have the right to hack me off on a daily basis. Believe me, I give it to Jim and Cynthia in equal measure.If I was in charge, I would pull the team names in question if I was asked. Why? because it DOES offend someone with a direct tie to the image in question, AND it wouldnt hurt the team to do so. That said,I’m not sure if the teams should have to. The whole ‘honoring a noble people’ thing seems a bit contrived, but so does the outrage of some of these fringe groups. Each side seems to have a surplus of hazy stats, and vitrol. And while we may say ‘it’s just sports’ the opinions expressed often contain ominous undertones. Hey,I hate reading stuff like the guy who made those comment about the fire-water and such. NOBODY WINS W/IGNORANCE! Bottomline, regardless of the outcome,a little respect for each other in these debates would do all of us a bit of good. Oh yeah, Selah.

By Spartan

August 17, 2005 04:19 PM | Link to this

F@% civility and F@% you Marc.

Just kidding. Yeah, the racist stuff was way out of line.

By Jerry Sumner

August 17, 2005 04:31 PM | Link to this

I am a white, late middle-aged southerner. Some years ago, I came to the same conclusion that Mr. Leonard and you, Mr. Moore, have reached. My family was attending a World’s Series game in 1996 in old Fulton County Stadium. I Native American group had a table set up, handing out literature protesting the Braves use of them as their mascot. The crowd was surging past, paying little or no attention to the protesters. Something bothered me, as it had for some time.

I stopped, went back to the table, took their literature and wished them well in their efforts.

The point is simple, no organization, group or race has a right to stereotype anyone! This certainly includes a school or team using others as a mascot.

By Marc Lucier

August 17, 2005 04:55 PM | Link to this

Yeah,yeah Spartan, Molon Labe right back at’cha! Trust me, I’ve been in some heated debates but this topic really strikes a nerve w/folks. Curious, how many teams in other countries use mascots? I know the Jamaican soccer team is the Reggae Boyz, but I think that’s like saying the Bad Boys, or the Purple People Eaters. Also, the Nigerian national soccer team is the SuperEagles, not a tribe, or culture. Any examples out there? Or is this a uniquely American thing? One more thing…I roll my eyes when sportscasters say: ‘The visit to the troops really drove the point home that these are the REAL heroes,’ and ‘After this, these sporting contests should no longer be called battles or wars’. Bull, sure these guys are TRUE HEROES, but was never offended by the characterization. I was consumed by news clippings charting my hometown HS’s state basketball title while I was deployed, and everybody had a shipmate who was the fan of a rival team. I also knew the best way to butter up Master Sgt. was to talk up UK hoops, while the only way I could get in a jab at the new LT was to diss Cornell’s gridiron chances. In short, sports consumed the sportsfans among us, and was the only relief many of us got. Imagine the guy not getting regular letters from home? We had a guy like that, and the SuperBowl (Cowboys vs Bills blowout)was almost as big as his homecoming. Don’t underestimate the power that these silly kid’s games can have on our guys over seas.

By atlanta boy

August 17, 2005 05:15 PM | Link to this

too much time on your hands, Mr. Moore.

By Martin Register

August 17, 2005 05:21 PM | Link to this

Mr. Moore:

It’s interesting to see so many people claiming to be offended by your column, accusing you of being too sensitive, too cerebral (it’s just sports, after all), then proceding to grab the subject and beat it senseless with their own wild-eyed (and endless) justifications. Congratulations on a fine column. Believe me, there are a great many people offended by native American stereotypes. And their numbers make them too important to be callously brushed aside. And by the way, I have a few choice words for the idiot who termed the phrase “politically correct”, but remembering what I’ve just written about tolerance, I’ll just keep those to myself. Maybe some of your readers should do the same.

By hollie a ryder

August 17, 2005 05:31 PM | Link to this

My aching backside!! Inclusive or exclusive terms(i.e. all, none,everyone,nobody,dead), in my opinion, do not belong in public discourse when many poorly educated and understanding persons fail to comprehend the qualifing phrase that quite often is tacitly employed. The qualifing phrase being, “in my opinion”.

By todd t

August 17, 2005 05:34 PM | Link to this

Mr. Moore,

Most of my sentiments about your misguided article have already been posted, so I will add just a few things. The NCAA has profited for years (even today) by using the Seminole image. They currently have ove 100 items listed for sale on their website that bear the “abusive” symbols of Florida State, and they have licensed the use of a Seminole player on the NCAA football ‘06 game- complete with the addition of tomoahawks to the featured players’ helmet when he makes a play, fans doing the warchant, etc. (not to mention the used a Seminole player on the cover in a past edition). Nobody on the committee who passed this back door ruling even bothered to call the Seminole tribe of Florida to ask their opinion (they have a toll free number), nor did they offer to allow the schools in question even comment on why they should not be affected by such a poorly planned ruling. The PR nightmare that Myles Brand has caused would be enough to force any other public leader to step down. It is time for him to do the same.

-Todd

P.S.- they also forgot to mention that Florida State is also currently planning the building of a multi-million dollar Seminole historic museum on campus—- Abusive??

By Jeff

August 17, 2005 05:59 PM | Link to this

Hmmmm… funny… if a sports mascot offends even one Native American, the world must turn upside-down until it changes… but if Hollywood and the liberal left attacks and offends my conservative, Christian, wholesome family values and political ideas, it’s laughed at and lampooned by columnists, political pundits, talk show hosts, cartoons, comedians, etc. It’s fun to mock people who go to church or have some conservative ideas about government, but God forbid your stupid school nickname has anything to do with an Indian… then suddenly it’s the world’s biggest crisis. Pardon me if I don’t wail and cry over this meaningless issue. Stop offending me with the trash that Hollywood puts out each and every day, stop making fun of my beliefs, stop saying my values don’t matter to anyone, and MAYBE I will listen to your over-sensitive liberal ideas about why these mascots are so bad. Until then, more power to FSU and other institutions for not having a knee-jerk reaction and changing because of this silly hysterical notion that nothing that could POSSIBLY offend people should EVER be out in public EVER! That’s just a rediculous idea, and political correctness at its worst.

By DevilGrad

August 17, 2005 07:53 PM | Link to this

I see that Professor Joseph Leonard, an acquaintance of mine and a great Miamian, has come in for more than his fair share of abuse hereabouts today. What Professor Leonard said, quite simply, is “Theoretically, if you find even one person that thinks something like that is offensive, it should change. In this case, it’s way more than one.�

And, theoretically, that’s exactly right — assuming that changing the offensive item does not give equal or greater offense to someone else. Those of you attacking Professor Leonard’s logic may wish to refresh your memories on Pareto improvements (to use an analogy from economics) or re-read Rawls or Mill (if you are more of a political philosophy type).

The problem here, of course, is that there are large numbers of folks who either are or claim to be offended by the proposal to change, and the hard ethical question is whether and how to balance their interests against those of Native Americans who believe themselves to be demeaned by some of these nicknames. There’s a reasonable discussion to have about those issues — but it sure as heck isn’t happening here.

The Miami community ultimately decided that the wishes of the Miami Tribe took precedence. That was a painful process, but some eight years on, I think all but a few die-hard alums have come to terms with that and continue to support their school. (The Sweet Sixteen run and the Ben Roethlisberger era have helped pull folks back on the bandwagon, too.)

As I tell visitors to the Miami fan site who wish to re-litigate this issue, the most important name on the jersey is the first one — MIAMI — and I feel sorry for anyone who can no longer root for their alma mater as “RedHawks.”

I probably didn’t agree with everything Terry Moore wrote this morning, but his piece was thought provoking and deserves a better quality of response than it seems to be getting. Maybe that’s just Gresham’s Law at work on the internet.

Take care, “DevilGrad” Miami ‘88

By Ralph

August 17, 2005 07:55 PM | Link to this

Folks,

As I told a friend of mine the other day, I could find something offensive about everything; given enough time, efforts, and resources.

UGA “Pit” Bulldogs have mauled.

GT “Yellow Jackets” have stung.

Dallas “Cowboys” have taken the land from Native Americans.

Come on folks…

Wake up and smell the coffee.

By Chris

August 17, 2005 08:00 PM | Link to this

GREAT article Mr. Moore. You are the only reason I read the AJC. Unlike the rest of the writers, you actually have a valid opinion and you do discuss topics that affect sports fans outside the lines. Please continue to open our the eyes with thought provoking commentary!

By nick boris

August 17, 2005 10:47 PM | Link to this

Seems strange no one from the Indian protest group, nor the NCAA contacted the Ute Indian tribe for their viewpoint.

From all indications, the Utes have no quarrel with the Univ of Utah and the offensive mascot - in reality just a drum and tailfeather. The Indian mascot was eliminated many years ago.

By Andy

August 17, 2005 11:50 PM | Link to this

You have got to be kidding me. Do you people not realize that this is the exact kind of thing that’s wrong with this country? People care more about political correctness and not offending “anyone” more than they do about common sense. Your comparison of slavery and mascots is completely idiotic and you use a lot of words to say nothing. Slavery was wrong. We all know that. It should have never been instituted in the first place. But it was and anyone who thinks it could just be abolished all at once is out of their mind. Any progress takes time. Nothing is done immediately. IF slavery would have been completely abandoned at once, the entire economy of the southern US would have died of poverty…including the freed slaves.
As far as your comments about the mascots: should mascots be abandoned because non-indians feel that they are offensive? If this rule is instituted, that’s what will happen. The Seminole nation feels that FSU’s representation of them is not offensive at all. They get to go to college for free….even those who are 1/16 Seminole get a free college education. How offensive is that? Do you consider the american indian people to not be intelligent enough to make up their minds about what they find offensive to their own culture?
And just because something is offensive to a few does NOT guarantee that it should be outlawed. Not indian mascots, not confederate flags, not Malcolm X symbols or anything else. We, as Americans, have the right to freedom of belief, of speech, of religion, and of expression. But having those rights does not mean that everyone else has to cater to our own personal feelings. We all have the right to believe and express how we feel, but not everyone else should have to change because of those feelings. If we did, then someone would be offended by virtually everything, leaving us with a LOT of very screwed up system.

By Kevin

August 18, 2005 12:25 AM | Link to this

Hey Terrance,

I’m Scotch Irish. A people oppressed and enslaved by the English. You know what? I ‘m not hung up on it!! I’ve never been enslaved or oppressed and I don’t know the first Brit that has ever slighted me. You, likewise, should get over it for you have never been enslaved or oppressed. On the contrary, thanks to the Cox cooks you have a wonderful job as a sports columnist. Try to stick to it, because the sports page ain’t the arena for this spew and I’m sure the only thing you’ve ever picked is your nose!

By Marc

August 18, 2005 12:44 AM | Link to this

Mr. Moore - I pity you. The chip on your shoulder is as large as Cynthia McKinney’s mouth. Tradition is a dirty word with you and your ilk.

How in the world does it hurt to honor a valid piece of our nation’s history? The Native Americans are a proud people who don’t b*** about the injustices done to them (unlike your people). You want to rewrite the history books to leave out the parts that you don’t like or approve of. I have news for you - things happened. You have gotten many benefits from what your ancestors paid for in hard work. How did any of their tribulations affect you, other than to use as an excuse for mediocrity?

And as far as Robert E. Lee’s slaves go, they were taken care of and well-loved. Look it up - maybe you can see past your clouded view of history into what really happened. The slaves of that era were treated much better than the black welfare class of today. I strongly maintain that the Great Society programs just legally reintroduced slavery into our country by making an entire generation of people slaves to the government.

I realize that my thoughts are unacceptable in today’s PC world…but many more people silently agree with me than disagree.

Unfortunately, you have received a bully pulpit in a major news outlet that lets you promote your self-serving opinions. Remember, with great power comes great responsibility and words are like daggers. People like you can take credit for changing the world…for the worse.

Go REDSKINS!

By Marc

August 18, 2005 12:55 AM | Link to this

Hey - shouldn’t we change the mascot for the GA State University sports teams? “Panther” is highly offensive because it refers to a stalking black animal.

Hmmm…maybe the name is appropriate after all.

By Marc

August 18, 2005 01:16 AM | Link to this

Now we know where Mr. Moore got his critical thinking and writing skills. In two sentences, “Dr.” Leonard committed two grievous grammatical errors. He even misspelled his own last name!

Affirmative action at its finest!

By David Mann

August 18, 2005 03:13 AM | Link to this

You’ve ONCE AGAIN jumped on the crazy train in this overly PC world.

New England Patriots, San Diego Padres, Dallas Cowboys, Tennessee Volunteers, Pittsburg Steelers, San Fransico 49ers, Milwaukee Brewers etc, etc, etc….

Try telling fans from these teams, that their nickname is demeaning to its namesake. It’s an honor, not demeaning!!!

Are we not going to have a NCAA Championship in one of the THOUSANDS of cities throughout the U.S. named after Native Americans? Last I checked, it was an HONOR to have your name chosen for a city, street, airport, stadium etc… Next, you’ll be saying we’re demeaning Maynard Jackson for adding his name to Hartsfield?

You’re consistently an idiot!

By JC

August 18, 2005 09:08 AM | Link to this

I can solve this once and for all. Let’s change all mascots to something involving the one group you can still say anything about and not get into trouble. How about “The Fighting Caucasians” “The Southern White Guys” or “The Honkys” Strange that none of these names offend ME, even thought I’m a member of that racial group. GO YOU HAIRY HONKYS!!

By Toom

August 18, 2005 10:08 AM | Link to this

Nice job TM, way to answer the bell. This is the way I see it going down… Editor: “As you all know, the paid AJC website has not gone real well and we’ve decided to open the online columns back up to the general public. To get the ball rolling, we’ve asked TM to write one of his inane, logic-lacking, columns targeted to anger the over-whelmingly conservative AJC readers. Go get ‘em TM” Mission accomplished.

By Marc Lucier

August 18, 2005 10:26 AM | Link to this

I’m done with this topic. Too bad that discourse has been waived in favor of hateful diatribe. Seems everybody is trying to take shots at the people who have opposing viewpoints instead of confronting the issue. This goes for Mr. Moore on down. Eveybody who supports keeping the name isn’t a beer swilling,these-colors-don’t-run sticker sporting, trailer park resident. And what if they were? Sounds like half of my platoon. Everybody who is against the names isn’t an affirmative action-loving, reparations supporting,bleeding heart liberal (Sounds like the other half of my platoon!)Point is, in a country of liberty,how do we balance our morals, and values with what others value as well? If this is the best we can do, name-calling, and disrespect, then shame on US. Our leaders, whether Robert E. Lee, Martin Luther King, or Chief Osceola can’t possibly be proud.

By LM

August 18, 2005 11:51 AM | Link to this

“A mascot is a mascot, and a mascot is demeaning.” Given that, your friend would have to conclude that Ole Miss demeans the Rebel. My guess is he’d actually say Ole Miss is guilty of honoring the Rebel, or the Rebel mentality, then talk about how we’re comparing apples to oranges. I have mixed feelings on the FSU mascot issue, but trotting out shallow, unsupported generalizations only weakens your case. We the undecided would appreciate a more logical, less emotional debate — from both sides.

By Craig

August 18, 2005 12:46 PM | Link to this

I think I’m coming around to Terrance’s way of thinking….He is clearly “hostile and abusive” to me. He should be removed immediately! Poor logic….AJC please reinstate Premium content. Then this “stuff” will be have the audience it deserves!

By Brian

August 18, 2005 01:27 PM | Link to this

The biggest problem of them all is that we all think we can put everybody into a pot based on race and ethnicity. All whites aren’t rebel luving racist, and all black aren’t rap listening, drug dealers. But if America the instituion and the Ideal had its say, those things are true. Blacks have a upper, middle and lower class, just like whites, but so called intelligent Americans sereotype and generalize everybody. It’s almost sad, bcus we’re supposedly the leading nation if you live in Europe you’re European. If you’re in America you’re white, black and Indian, Asian or hispanic first the last thing you are is an American. To the ignorant Marc how the hell do you know that there’s a whole generation dependent on the government. Ignorant generalization, but consider the source…You represent what’s wrong with America..Let’s talk about dependence African Americans comprise about 12% of America’s population, I doubt the less than a million black folks on welfare tip the scales of government dependence. If you’re smart enough you do the math….But sadly when the word welfare comes up white America automatically thinks Black America, sorry to burst you bubble the numbers just don’t add up..this issue stopped being about a mascot as soon as Mr. Moore opened his mouth, again society let’s race get in the way. Nobody would have had this big of a problem if this was a white guy siding with the NCAA. He’s blk so it’s a problem..

By a native american

August 18, 2005 02:31 PM | Link to this

Still at it, eh? Hear it from source on the ‘Fighting Sioux’ issue. Imagine if she was your child, would you still feel the same? Viewpoint, How the nickname hurts me personally

By john

August 18, 2005 02:51 PM | Link to this

Mr. Moore, you are a darn nice man. And a good journalist. Having said that, “be careful about looking like a hypocrite with a double-standard.” Since you are so ‘politically-correct’, does this mean you will STOP reporting Atlanta BRAVES games? How about when the Washington REDSKINS ever play the Falcons? Hey,I grew up in Chicago. Do you know the same people crying about the University of Illinois “Chief Illiniwek” mascot are the same people who want more public funding for the Chicago Transit System. So that fans have better access to the ballparks for when the Braves, Indians, and Redskins, come to town. Finally, Atlanta (Braves), Washington (Redskins), and Cleveland (Indians) all have progressive African-American mayors and liberal dominated city councils. So why haven’t I heard any loud noises coming out of the city halls concerning those insensitive and racist nicknames of their sports teams. Hope you read people’s letters. I’d like you to explain the difference?

By TCS

August 18, 2005 05:06 PM | Link to this

I just spent half an hour scrolling through the comments people felt compelled to leave after reading Mr. Moore’s column. Much of that time I spent putting together what i would leave in support of the column and as retaliation against the angry ignorance of those that say there is no harm in these mascots. But after scrolling and scrolling I mostly want to say: What a column! Great work! Just another reason I turn to my home town paper almost everyday after 4 years living in San Antonio, and because yall cover the Dawgs better than the Express News.

By Ralph

August 18, 2005 07:54 PM | Link to this

Well personally i’m offended that most sports teams consist of 80 to 90 percent black athlete’s. So let’s do away with all sports and the problem will be solved right? Wrong people who cry racism on every issue of life will just find something else to cry about. Grow your a* up and realize that in life you don’t always get what you want. There is no place in The Constitution of The United States that guarantees you the right not to be offended. But it does guarantee you the right to freedom of speech no matter how stupid you are. You’ve expessed your opinion on this situation so shut up and go back to just reporting on sports or better yet quit your job because your stupidity offends me.

By Philip

August 19, 2005 10:12 AM | Link to this

SAD, SAD:

I wasn’t going to post anything until I read your comments. The words ‘pathetic’ and ‘get over it’ come to mind after reading your garbage. Who is the “you people” you’re referring to? You mention that many of “these people” are racist…take a look in the mirror when you say that. Racism isn’t just a white on black evil…it’s every where and between people of all ethnic backgrounds.

There’s no getting around it or forgetting the horrible atrocities committed in the name of slavery, but you weren’t there and neither were your children. You live in a world today of complete freedom and opportunity to succeed just as much as the next man or woman. Sure we should study this part of our American history and learn the lessons that can be taken from our past. However, to keep harping on it or pretending like something that happened 160+ years ago directly affects you personally today is nonsense. Maybe I should complain about the brutality of English rule over my Scottish ancestors. Some people act or pretend like slavery only took place in the United States of America and only affected blacks. Maybe they should study a little more about World History or just read the Bible.

And not to diminish the horror of the American slave trade, but most, if not all, of the slaves brought over from Africa were already enslaved by other African tribes and sold to Americans and Europeans. Just another note…do you pay attention to current events in Africa today? Chances are you don’t. And chances are if you still lived in Africa you would be dead, starving, or sick.

Also, check out who is doing the majority of the missionary work throughout Africa. I don’t have the number with me offhand, but it’s about 95% white Americans and Europeans that are working to help those in need in Africa. Name one rap artist or black professional athlete that has gone to Africa and tried to make an impact. And I mention black entertainers because they have the surplus of income and influence on the community.

Until we can get to the point where discussing slavery or the Civil War is just like any other topic in history we will forever be a separated nation. In a few hundred years there won’t even be white, black, Hispanic, Asian, and Indian. Interracial marriages will create a wonderful new world. If I enjoy someone’s company or respect someone it isn’t the result of the pigmentation in their skin…it’s the character of the person.

JC:

Get a clue. What do you think the Patriots, Steelers, Vikings, and Cowboys were named after? Umm…gee…white folks. The Buccaneers and Raiders could state a case in that direction as well, but there were too many others around the world that could make claim to that profession as well.

I can see where the term “redskin� could be offensive, but considering the manner in which the professional football team uses this term I can only find positives.

Terence Moore:

For you to compare sports mascots to slavery is like TO comparing himself to Jesus Christ. There is no comparison. It was beneath you to even try to bring slavery into this absurd discussion of mascots.

By bubba

August 19, 2005 10:28 AM | Link to this

Hey Ralph! You take offense but you watch the games don’t ya’? And how many times have you paid for tickets to see them? Crawl back under the rock you came from…

By bubba

August 19, 2005 10:32 AM | Link to this

Philip Try Oprah and Puff Daddy to name a few.. you need to read more. Oprah opened an orphanage.

By Philip

August 19, 2005 10:45 AM | Link to this

Bubba,

Oh gee. Wow. You named one black activist that participates in helping people in Africa. Of course Oprah has several hunderd million dollars. Missionaries are poor and devote their lives to helping the people or nation they are assigned to.

Oprah or Puff the Magic Dragon giving a few bucks out of their fortunes to make a PR statement isn’t saying much. Not to mention how many of the wealthy black community that can afford to throw money away actually go over to Africa and get their hands dirty.

People can always find something to complain about I guess. Get a life Bubba. Take your own advice and read up on missionary work in Africa before you open your mouth. And as I said it’s about 95% white Americans and Europeans…although there is a significant Asian presence in some places too.

By bubba

August 19, 2005 02:13 PM | Link to this

Philip Get a life.. Listen to you.. Oh look what we do for the Africans!!! If it wasn’t for the Europeans and the Americans exploiting the Africans in the 1st place, maybe they wouldn’t be needing any help. Maybe you are too young to remember Apartheid. Just think about how much money the population of S.A. would have had if it wasn’t for the white people stealing their resources… you are so typical.

By Steve

August 19, 2005 04:30 PM | Link to this

One flaw in Moore’s column is that native Americans have had more than their share of the mascot spotlight. Let’s not forget Packers, Patriots, Cowboys, Oilers, Miners, Brewers, and Knights. These are just a few that are unique to Caucasians. There are also religious based symbols such as Padres and Deacons. Moore’s history is inaccurate. The Irish were enslaved as early as if not earlier than the Africans were exported for slavery. Ireland is much closer and there was not as large a language barrier. Local slavery preceded the European participation in slavery in Africa, and the European export of salves could not have been accomplished with out the aid of Africans.

If Mr. Moore really intended to rid the world of prejudice he would be as great a champion for the elimination of redneck references. I’m a Georgia Tech graduate and I’ve consulted in all parts of the United States and three countries abroad. More than once I was welcomed by northern whites and blacks with derogatory comments regarding my accent, heritage, or upbringing. I just took solace in the fact that these folks were paying me a great deal of money to solve a problem that they couldn’t. I suspect that some Seminoles react similarly when they sell a 10 cent trinket for a buck.

As a child I reacted with amazement at how my uncle would always find (and kill) copperheads while we walked his farm. I never saw these snakes until he had positioned me out of harms way and was preparing to shoot. I asked my uncle why he always saw snakes and I never did. His reply became my personal motto…. “Because I’m looking for snakes and you’re watching the squirrels.”

I prefer to watch the squirrels than look for the snakes.

By Danny

August 19, 2005 06:20 PM | Link to this

NCAA are a bunch of idiots. First, they will not let Ga. fans buy a ticket for a Boise State fan because his son plays for Boise State, then they do the Mascot thing, which has nothing to do with football. Moore, you are a racist and I would be disappointed if you changed your ways. That is what you are and I respect your right. Once again, that has nothing to do with football, which my point is, this is supposed to be about sports. Someone needs to get a grip on their assignment that earns them a pretty darn good paycheck. Otherwise, go to the editorial page so I will not read you, because I read about sports, not about someone’s opinion about race or politics.

By Quiet observer

August 20, 2005 09:59 AM | Link to this

If there ever was any question as to the hostility and aggression associated with the institutionalized use of “Indian” sports team tokens then the profusion of reactionary backlash found in media coverage and message board content like this one has removed all doubt.

The words and attitudes found here speak volumes and validate the concerns raised relative to Native American nicknames, mascots, symbols, and logos absolutely.

To those opposed to change, thank you for providing a great deal of useful and supportive evidence for retiring these outdated, stereotypic racial icons.

Please keep up the good work, but do try a little harder.

By john

August 20, 2005 11:15 AM | Link to this

Again I ask, why is Mr. Moore quiet about “Redskins”, “Indians (with the ridiculous smiling Wahoo), and “Braves”? Why does he have different rules for pro franchises from colleges? Why doesn’t he ask the city politicians in Atlanta, Cleveland, and Washington DC, why they are NOT speaking out more? Ask them where is their sensitivity? Why is Mr. Moore reporting on sporting events with the above-listed names? Sir, could you respond?

By Matthew Cafaro

August 20, 2005 01:19 PM | Link to this

You’ll find that when presented with arguments AGAINST what he is advocating, even if some of the arguments are logical in the face of his illogic, Mr. Moore will never, ever respond. He didn’t respond to his ignorant columns on Jackie Robinson last year with a well though out response. No, he just picked out the most offensive, racist emails he recieved, and printed them. Basically saying that these were the kind of responses he gleaned. He didn’t respond to my logical questions to his ridiculous story. No, he printed Racist Bubba’s emails and portrayed them as the gist of all the emails he recieved.

Mr. Moore, I am coming to realize, has the spine of a jellyfish. He’ll write some really wonderful columns every once in awhile, and then when I, or others, give him his due, he’ll say his thanks expand on his original ideas, and communicate with us. But when he writes trash like this, and the Jackie Robinson story from last year, he won’t respond to even the most logical of us, who have shattered his column into a million pieces by pointing out all of his hypocritical flaws.

Heck, Terence Moore didn’t even have the backbone to respond to Furman Bisher when he took Moore to taks for his blatently idiotic column on Robinson.

I guess, when he realizes his argument doesn’t even have one leg to stand on when held up to the light of real logical questioning, Mr. Moore just slinks into the shadows.

Someone with the courage of their convictions would explain themselves. Or, upon realizing the holes in their argument, would admit their mistake. But not Mr. Moore.

He’s the epitome of coward.

And I guarantee, if he does respond to this column, it will be to all of the Racist Bubba’s remarks. Not to those of us who pose a real problem for him. Somewhat educated people who know better than to believe the crap he writes, and see it for what it really is.

A stunt.

By chad

August 20, 2005 05:09 PM | Link to this

This article is exactly what is wrong with everyone today. If you are really concerned about native americans and their feelings then why don’t you spend some of your writing time informing people of hoe the native americans are still being mistreated by our government. I know that if I lived in poverty in the middle of the wealthiest country in the world I would be more concerned about how the government could help me to improve my living conditions instead of banning a picture of my ancestors on a helmut. So to you and all who believe like you I say congradulations, you have managed to make a big deal out of nothing and now you can all sleep better knowing that you have helped a entire community not get their feelings hurt. When you wake up tommorow lets see if we can feed those people and give them some REAL help

By Ralph

August 21, 2005 02:33 AM | Link to this

Hey Bubba You know it’s kinda funny that when blacks discriminate against whites thats ok but when whites discriminate they’re racist.Racism comes in all colors bubba. If you want people to be concerned about racism why not get a better balance on these sports teams. A couple of examples for you John Thompson Georgetown University and Nolan Richardson at Arkansas. You very rarely if ever saw a white player on their teams so why did you not cry racism then. Because all the athlete’s were black. If all the athlete’s had been white you would have been crying like a baby. Blacks are the worlds biggest racist and they keep crying about everyone else. Not only did these coaches want 12 black athlete’s they tried to get the NCAA to up that total to 15. So tell me who the real racist are here. Oh by the way my Grandmother was Full blooded Cherokee and I still don’t have a problem with Indian Mascots. Just thought I’d throw that in.

By OkieChippewa

August 21, 2005 01:00 PM | Link to this

The NCAA states that at least 18 schools have mascots or nicknames it deems “hostile or abusive.”

Why are the ONLY names on the list those related to Native American culture? If the NCAA Executive Committee wants to be even-handed, why aren’t the following school nicknames also “hostile or abusive”?

Ole Miss Rebels- How many African Americans like this one? Or most Northerners for that matter?

Southern California Trojans- Historians should be up in arms, as it denegrates the meaning of this ancient culture.

Oklahoma Sooners- People who live in Oklahoma are called Sooners. It is insulting to all those citizens who say they are Sooners and are mistakenly thought to be fans of OU football.

Notre Dame Fighting Irish- While they are probably in the minority, the pacifist people of Irish descent must be protected!

Providence Friars- Atheists and clergy should both be in an uproar. One for advocating religion and the other for attaching a revered name to a single school.

Centenary Gentlemen- Why haven’t the feminists come down on this one? Or for that matter any school that uses the prefix LADY in front their nicknames. We must have gender neutrality, people!

San Diego Aztecs- Yet another example of the Mexican culture being trashed.

While I’m being somewhat tongue-in-cheek, who can argue that at least SOME PEOPLE are offended by the use by a college or university using one of the above nicknames? In fact, a minority of persons probably feel a school is being “hostile” or “abusive” for ANY NICKNAME which refers to a cultural, racial, or other human identity.

What is important is….

How does the school portray the nickname?

What relationships does the school have with the culture in question?

What is the opinion of the leadership and the majority of citizens of that culture?

Which split culture carries the greater weight- the culture that still lives in the region or the one outside of it?

In the end, I believe those schools with tribal nicknames will survive or will be slightly modified (ex. North Dakota Sioux instead of Fighting Sioux), while the more generic, historically offensive Native American nicknames will succomb. In the latter case, wouldn’t it be ironic if such schools changed to a more specific name with the blessing of a local tribe? (ex. Southeastern Oklahoma State Choctaws instead of the Savages.)

By Brad

August 21, 2005 07:56 PM | Link to this

I’m an animal activist and I believe the Bulldogs and the Yellowjackets should change their name, because I am the “one person it offends.” That is what Terrence Moore basically is stating. How incredibly ridiculous! When does political correctness go too far? This is a prime example of it going too far in my opinion. Let the people of the state of Florida decide what their state university’s mascot is.

By David F

August 22, 2005 10:50 AM | Link to this

I agree with the NCAA, FSU’s use of the Seminole as their Mascot is Abusive and Hostile. FSU should change its mascot to The Flaming Spear Chuckers. I hope the League of Olympic Javelin Athletes or the Association of Flame Twirling Majorettes does not protest. You have to laugh at the politically correct idiots!

By JC

August 23, 2005 08:47 AM | Link to this

Philip You’re telling me to get a clue? Get a sense of humor. I was being sacrcastic. You’re so pitiful you don’t even know when someone is on your side.

By DrTorch

August 23, 2005 10:31 AM | Link to this

If this statement is true

“A mascot is a mascot, and a mascot is demeaning.”

Then Terrance better have a good talking to with these folks: http://www.columbusafricentric.com/

How much more demeaning and racist can you get!?

By bubba

August 24, 2005 08:38 AM | Link to this

Let me see… I’m a racist because my ancestors were slaves to whites and I protest about it? WOW! Not once did I demean anyone about their race. All I did was point out a few facts and that makes me a racist? How about a few more examples? Segregation, lynchings, murder, unemployment.. How about current stats? Does anyone know what the percentage is of minorities in the Army or Marines fighting in IRAQ and Afganistan? Ask your congressman what the “Doctrine of Discovery” is and why does the government use this today? Ask the Shoshone Tribe how it affects them. Why does the U.S. honor a murder every year? (Columbus) who managed to kill more natives than all the Jewish deaths in the Holocaust… but i’m racist!!!

By Scottish-English-Choctaw-American

August 24, 2005 02:17 PM | Link to this

Bubba:

1. So what exactly is it that you’re protesting? Slavery was abolished almost 150 years ago. And therefore you personally never endured any of those hardships. You live in country today with unlimited opportunity and freedom.

2. Lynchings and murder. Maybe I’ve been blind my entire 35 years of existence, but I don’t see these types of abuses being perpetrated by whites on blacks today. In fact if anything blacks on black crime is more prevalent.

3. Segregation is extinct just like the dinosaur. Everyone has equal rights today. However, it’s absurd to bus children half way across a city or county in the name of desegregation. Just my humble opinion.

4. Unemployment. Are only blacks unemployed?

5. As for the percentage of minorities fighting in Iraq. Well to be honest I have no clue, but I would gander a guess that it’s pretty darn high considering today’s enlisted military is made up with mainly minorities. Why do think that is? It offers them a chance to succeed. It’s better than working at 7-11. I’m sure your next point will be about the discrepancy between officers and enlisted. That comes down to education. Listen to Bill Cosby and get you and your children educated. There isn’t any “man” keeping you or anyone else down.

Let me conclude with the fact that I don’t pretend to know everything or have all the answers. And I don’t know what it’s like to walk a mile in your shoes either. However, until we all treat the past as a history lesson rather than some personal smack in the face we can never be one unified nation. If you don’t like the world today then try to make it better for your kids tomorrow. Heck, in 200 years it won’t even matter because we won’t even be able to distinguish white, black, Indian, Asian, or Hispanic…interacial marriages will wipe all that out in America.

By bubba

August 25, 2005 09:37 AM | Link to this

Interesting how you assume I am black. Now who’s the racist? I am a card carrying Native American and all the things I said above apply to me. The Europeans tried to make slaves out of my ancestors by shipping them to the Carribean and Europe. I do have a degree in Comp Sci. and i’m hopefull my kids will follow suit. It still doesn’t change my arguement. When the discrimination stops, only then can it become history. My people are still waiting for that day.