Get Schooled

By DB

November 12, 2008 8:56 AM | Link to this

National standards? Or national MINIMAL standards? I’m not sure you’ll get more than three people to agree on standards, much less 50 states. Having standards is fine, but would those standards bemandatory, like the state graduation test? Or simply a goal? God knows, there’s enough “goals” out there. Schools would have an easier time concentrating on goals if they could concentrate on pure teaching, instead of having to be mommy and daddy, too.

Besides, why is Bill Gates so hepped up on a college education? He never finished college ;-)

By Jeff

November 12, 2008 9:02 AM | Link to this

Whatever happened to the weak-national Government, strong local government accountable to the people philosophy of the Founding Fathers?

Personally, I don’t want my kids being forced to learn exactly the same thing as the kids in places like San Fransisco or Midtown Atlanta.

And everytime we come up with ‘more stringent’ standards above the local level (including state and national), they are always WEAKER than the standards of myself and even my community. (And those that know where I live and know the school system here can vouch for that!)

By high school teacher

November 12, 2008 9:16 AM | Link to this

National Standards: Why? Is it to have a contest to see which part of the country is smarter? What truly is the benefit of national standards?

By jim d

November 12, 2008 9:16 AM | Link to this

Ms. Diamond,

I would like to thank you for once again providing a platform for me to voice my opposition to Governemt involvement in education.

IMHO education should be entirely privatized, and a free market should determine what kids are taught.

It is my firm belief that parents, and kids, want to succeed in life, and they will naturally design and select schools that help them do so.

There id no need for outside standards; in fact, as with all socialist proposals, the attempt to impose high-level government control will certainly fail.

I’m really amazed that anyone still buys into this socialistic crap. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that the solution to our education problem is to tighten government controls. The government has been in charge of education for nearly a century, and it has been a consistent failure.

Every socialist experiment around the globe has crashed and burned. Why does anyone think that socialism will work for education? Why would anyone think that Mr. Obama’s socialistic views and approach to curing any of America’s woes, is capable of improving our standard of life?

By the Carnivore

November 12, 2008 9:24 AM | Link to this

The national standards show up at graduation anyway. When Harvard chooses its freshman class, they and other elite institutions are setting the standard. The only problem is that it is backward-looking. You only know if you did well enough after you are accepted or rejected.

I say let the standards be local, not national. If a certain school district has dumb kids, dumb parents, dumb teachers, and a dumb curriculum, then it will have its own internal hierarchy of what is good and what is bad. It will become apparent when those kids interact with kids who came from good districts which set of standards was higher.

By jim d

November 12, 2008 9:30 AM | Link to this

I believe i may have just experienced an epiphany re; World class education

WCE = Socialisim

By NCLB

November 12, 2008 9:42 AM | Link to this

National Standards? Why are we still talking about National Education Standards?? Everyone heard Obama promised to fix our education system using Bill and Linda Gates’ billion dollar example. 40 out of 40 graduates, remember?

So obviously.., we need now only sit back and wait for Jan 20th. Everthing is will be taken care of then. Unless of course.., that was just some kind of whopping lie to get my vote.

By jim d

November 12, 2008 9:50 AM | Link to this

NCLB,

“Unless of course.., that was just some kind of whopping lie to get my vote.”

Ya think?? ;)

By For States rights

November 12, 2008 9:53 AM | Link to this

Why is the Federal Gov involved in education at all. No where in the Constitution does it say the Feds will oversee the education on the Nations children. But then again it doesn’t say that we are to tax the populus into dropping dead.

By Blue Devil

November 12, 2008 10:10 AM | Link to this

Thank you Jim D! Afterall, the world needs ditch diggers too :)

By teach1

November 12, 2008 10:27 AM | Link to this

Well I guess I am the odd ball. As a teacher I would like National Standards. I think it would help to be on common ground. Set the standards high! But at least a 6 year old coming from CA will have had to have gone through the same curriculum. Students moving from state to state often lose out because there are no National norms.

By Sarah

November 12, 2008 10:37 AM | Link to this

I doubt that it would happen. Would I like to see it? No, no, and no. No more government involvement in school. Please!

By just a teacher

November 12, 2008 10:44 AM | Link to this

Here’s the thing: you can’t have national “accountability” without national standards. This is how states like GA end up looking so awful compared to the other states; without true national standards, the public uses tests like the SAT (which was not at all intended for state-by-state comparison) to rank us.

I’m not necessarily for national standards, but if we have to have federal accountability, we need a level playing field. National standards would provide that. I would probably argue that we don’t need as much bogus accountability, but whatever.

And seriously, socialism? Really? I’m already annoyed with this new boogeyman. There is a lot of space between “socialism” and full-scale privatization. I believe that space is where solutions will be found.

By NCLB

November 12, 2008 10:50 AM | Link to this

This year 40% of Georgia’s would be seniors have dropped out.., 50% of them black.

These are the results of 30 years of progressively dumbing down our traditional education standards, dumbing them down so low that they meet the progressive agenda of not putting undo pressure on kids to succeed. And look at that, it worked. I mean really.., what did these morons expect if not the lowest common denominator??? And now, in the face of a complete system failure, liberals shamelessly ask what we think of the national standards of billionaries. Pricey private standards for public schools no less.., as if we can magically afford that too.

But obviously, the only way to successfully fix our education system is to completely change its culture. Out with the progressively stupid thinkers that have infested the system and back in with the traditional hard workers. We need teachers that will take control of the classroom. Even if it is at the end of a paddle. Back to when students didn’t get free passes for failure. And back to when drop outs were 18 yr old 9th graders that just didn’t want to keep up. Short bus riders as we called them, something no one strived to become 30 years ago..

By My Two Cents

November 12, 2008 10:57 AM | Link to this

A step forward in the education problem is to get the illegals out. They are draining our financial resources. Also, we need to get back to the basics in education. Reading, writing, arithmetic, and science should be taught to every student through high school. Our kids deserve a good education that they can use whatever their choice in life is. We have dumbed down our education curricula long enough!

By bearcasey

November 12, 2008 11:15 AM | Link to this

JEFF: the Anti-federalists lost the political battle to the Federalists in the 1780’s.

By SallyB

November 12, 2008 11:20 AM | Link to this

So…a few years ago it was mandated that all 7th [or 8th..can’t remember ] grade students take Algebra. It was impossible because many 7th/8th graders could not divide or manipulate whole numbers, much less fractions.Turned out the class was “called” Algebra, but what was taught was basic math. Or , the teacher had 1/3 of the class that could actually do Algebra, and the rest could not!!! It will all come down to promotion policy. ….as most reforms do. Until there is some effective plan for having to meet criteria to be promoted to the next grade, no standards will be effective. ARe we going to have 12 year olds in 4th grade? ARe we going to devise another path for those who cannot or will not learn certain academic skills?

By Southwest GA Libertarian

November 12, 2008 11:23 AM | Link to this

bear:

Ah, but therein lies the rub:

Even the Federalists wanted the national government’s power to be LIMITED. The Anti-Federalists wanted an almost (or completely) non-existent one.

By TheBlogger

November 12, 2008 11:34 AM | Link to this

National standards in education would be weak at best - therefore a waste of time and money overall.

Take high school as an example. In GA, it is required for students to take a physical science (physics, for example). However, in FL, physics is not required and in fact not even offered in most high schools - they favor Earth Science.

Are these national standards going to require every state to offer the exact same courses? Does this make sense?

If this is the trend, then we also need to certify teachers nationally. If this is what will happen, then it doesn’t make sense to certify teachers in just one State. Make it a national certification.

IMHO, Gates needs to throw some of this money to teach people how to become better parents - how to discipline, how to teach morals and ethics, how to teach manners and respect for adults. If people become better parents, then by default we will have better students and improve education.

IMHO, Gates needs to throw some of this money to stop social promotion (yes, every GA elementary and middle school does this) and require mastery of content before passing from one grade to the next or from one school to another. This ridiculous practice has done more to damage education than anything else.

By high school teacher

November 12, 2008 12:08 PM | Link to this

IMHO, Gates needs to throw some of this money to stop social promotion (yes, every GA elementary and middle school does this) and require mastery of content before passing from one grade to the next or from one school to another.

My freshmen are just stunned when they realize that they can’t take Math 2 until they have passed Math 1: “But that’s not how we did it in midldle school!”

By V for Vendetta

November 12, 2008 12:31 PM | Link to this

If the standards are high and we don’t compromise them, then I really don’t have a big problem with being compared nationally …

IF

… the students who are not able, uncaring, and/or discipline problems are left behind. If we can agree on that, I’m all for it.

By David S

November 12, 2008 12:43 PM | Link to this

The Gates are interested in making sure there is a ready and educated workforce available for him and his fellow mega-corporation owners. They are tired of having to teach remedial math and reading to new hires, especially those in their production areas.

You may only think that education is about getting a job, but there was a time in this country when getting an education was about growing the individual. Then came government schools that were more interested in creating subservient, compliant, hard-working taxpayers than in producing free-thinking individuals.

All of you who clammor for local control can kiss that dream goodbye if these two clowns and their supporters ever achieve the goal of national standards. Every school will be just as crappy as the next and your child will end up getting exactly the same education as every other kid in the country.

Even if all you want to produce is a worker bee, consider that if your area of the country relies heavily on workers with heavy science education, that will not matter. If your kid has a great interest in history, that will not matter.

Just as the central planners in the former Soviet Union showed that you cannot plan the economy of a state from a central location, so too will you discover that idiot bureaucrats in Washinton cannot effectively put together a one-size-fits-all standard for education. Just look at the mess of No-child-left-behind.

Why wait until you are forced into this mess. Get out now, work toward the end of government run education, homeschool or send your kid to private school and improve the educational health of the entire nation.

By Lisa B.

November 12, 2008 12:56 PM | Link to this

I received an email yesterday that said Obama wants a world class education for all children from birth to college graduation. Wow! For years, numerous co-workers have said that the babies need to be dropped off at school on the way home from the hospital, and the school will raise them.

I now envision a future where children begin school at six weeks old, freeing the mothers and fathers to rebuild our crumbling infrastructure and schools (the proposal to create jobs), and all our problems will be solved! All the children will be smart and college educated, welfare will end because everyone will work, and unemployment will be non-existent.

As a radio talk show host said yesterday, the U.S. Dept. of Education will have a larger budget than that of the U.S. Department of Defense. Surely with the additional funding, the U.S. Dept. of Ed ought to be able to come up with a national curriculum satisfactory to everyone :-)

By teach1

November 12, 2008 1:50 PM | Link to this

But doesn’t it make sense that there should be guidelines across the country.

Imagine this: In first grade in the state of GA we are covering in math number sense, operations, measurement, making fair trades with coins up to $1.00, time, shapes 2and 3-D, counting by 2,5,and 10 as well as fractions, word problems and processing skills. I know other states do not have money in their curriculum until 2nd grade. Imagine that child transferring in to second grade with no money experience because his state does not start it until 2nd grade but no it is assumed he will be able to make fair trades up to $1.00

There needs to be some guidelines. Maybe if we could focus on some important standards we could actually give students a good base instead of hitting on everything and nothing sinks in. Something to think about.

By Erin

November 12, 2008 2:07 PM | Link to this

National standards? PLEASE!!!

Half the time you can’t get a group of three people to agree easily on pizza toppings … so I think national educational standards are a bit of a stretch.

By jim d

November 12, 2008 2:28 PM | Link to this

teach 1,

sense??

Since when to sense and education fit together? Hell if it did fit we’d have the money following students and families making choices about their childrens education, and you know we can’t have that!

By Here's a thought

November 12, 2008 3:00 PM | Link to this

Not every child is on the track to being college bound. Not every child is motivated to learn. I teach at the middle school level and I see the apathy in these students and it gets worse everyday. I think using the CRCT and EOCT to our advantage is paramount. I believe students should be evaluated at the elementary level and then offer a “technical” school and an “educational” school. Look at standardized tests and give students an interest inventory to see where their interest lie. Example: Johnny wanted to drop out at 16 because he was interested in car repair. Instead of putting him on a college prep track, give him the options, trades, while he is in middle school. Of course, have the basic math, english classes to help them become productive citizens, but show the students there is so much out there to offer and give them a choice. I think this will help the drop out rate and give the students a trade they can learn and so when they graduate at 18, they can go to work. The students on the college bound track, should have the academic classes that will prepare them for college.

I believe this will eliminate the discipline problems in the schools and challenge the students that need to be challenged more often.

Not every student is college bound. Don’t force it on them. Take note from some of the European and Asian countries that do this and are successful.

This is just a thought.

By tcoach

November 12, 2008 3:00 PM | Link to this

The problem with national standards is that not all children are standardly smart.

Some have had bad parents and were not taught things like valuing an education.

If you make it a standard then you have to come down to those students levels while the smarter more advanced students are then held back waiting on the others to catch up.

We vote for school board members, if a community does not like the path of their schools vote the leaders out.

We are not alike, we are all individuals, so why would anyone want to make us all the same intelligence? What is the benefit from us all being equally smart?
That means some have to get smarter while others have to get dumber

By Jim D Is A Nut

November 12, 2008 3:05 PM | Link to this

jim d - You did have a choice, and you chose to send your son to public school. If you abhor the public system in Georgia so much, especially in Gwinnett County - why did you send him to public school? Why didn’t you send him to private school? Not that I think they’re any better, but, again - why?

By Lisa B.

November 12, 2008 3:31 PM | Link to this

Georgia is approaching the end of a years’ long process to implement new standards. All new standards for all content areas grades k-8 have been “rolled out,” and high school is in the process of implementing math and social studies. I can’t imagine any teacher wanting to toss aside years of work learning new standards to implement national standards.

By SallyB

November 12, 2008 4:05 PM | Link to this

Well, Ms. Diamond…..seems to me that the *national standards” will have to be mighty low if all students are going to meet them.

I really don’t understand why anyone would think that *if we just deny the existence of individual differences in ….and interest in….. academic ability * those individual differences will go away!!! Pretty much everyone acknowledges that there are differences in athletic ability, artistic ability, manual dexterity…..WHAT’S THE DEAL?????

By Southwest GA Libertarian

November 12, 2008 4:07 PM | Link to this

tcoach:

From Fahrenheit 451 by Ray Bradbury:

“We must all be alike. Not everyone born free and equal, as the Constitution says, but everyone made equal. Each man the image of every other; then all are happy, for there are no mountains to make them cower, to judge themselves against.”

Sound familiar?

1984 by Orwell is - so far, I’m not done yet - also eerily similar.

Seriously, before reading these books I though everyone that said what I just said was just blowing smoke… and then I read (or am reading) them myself…

By Mike D

November 12, 2008 4:19 PM | Link to this

The world does need ditch diggers too.

If the kid is smart enough to go to college they figure out a way. The kids that don’t go probably don’t need to be there.

By jim d

November 12, 2008 4:56 PM | Link to this

Nut,

I will make one last ditch effort to explain to you that the choice was not mine. Some of us are smart enough to allow our children to start making choices while they are young so they are prepared, when they get a little older to make wiser choices and become real leaders.

For some god forsaken reason you seem to really have aa problem with that. So I ask you. WHY?

By Paul Lebeau

November 12, 2008 4:56 PM | Link to this

How does one achieve an issue? Perhaps we need national standards for journalism?

By jim d

November 12, 2008 4:59 PM | Link to this

Southwest GA Libertarian,

You’re preaching to the choir here, my friend. Unfortunately we have a few here that will never get it.

Mike D,

Not only do we need ditch diggers but teachers as well. ;)

By Ms Obvious

November 12, 2008 5:12 PM | Link to this

Being that I have vast experience in pretty much every form of education (early childhood, middle grades, adult ed, public and private) I can say that I personally have mixed feelings on standards. They aren’t all in themselves bad, but they aren’t fixing the problem with education. There are a few things in the education system that needs to be addressed. The first thing is classroom size. Teachers are expected to be like a mom or dad to these kids, and they simply can’t do that when their classrooms are over crowded. Its true that teachers shouldn’t HAVE to be like parents, but many parents aren’t out their supporting their kids, but that doesn’t mean the kid should be punished for having bad parents. We first have to cut classroom sizes! I personally don’t think that any classroom should have more than 10 kids no matter the age. Each kid needs a lot of attention, and this would also help keep more good teachers in the classroom. (Hello, isn’t that another problem) it would reduce disciple problems, and it would encourage group activities. Until this can be accomplished, you can add all the standards you want to, but they will always fall short in many many school districts. And for all of you who claim that my kids school is just fine thank you, well you might be right, but across town, it might not be just fine. Guess what happens to those kids who have a crappy education? Any ideas? Most of them turn to crime, so we have to fork out tons of tax money to support them in prisons. I’d much rather my tax money go to fixing the education system then to supporting criminals! Think of it as a serious investment.

By Mel

November 12, 2008 5:20 PM | Link to this

National standards work if you have folks in charge to give a rats! If you’ve never liked in a country that takes education seriously, I guess you would be afraid, but hey, it’s worth trying because the nothing is working in the larger US community.

By Texas Pete

November 12, 2008 5:20 PM | Link to this

There are plenty of jobs for those kids that don’t go to college.

Wal Mart Cashier Taco Bell cook trash collection park cleanup dry cleaner workers

Who is going to do all of this stuff for me if everyone goes to college

By jim d

November 12, 2008 5:25 PM | Link to this

Guess what happens to those kids who have a crappy education?

Well ok. but more than a few won’t be happy with my guess.

Do they become teachers?

By Wow

November 12, 2008 5:58 PM | Link to this

Jim D. - So you allowed your child to attend a school in a system that you have no regard for? Wow! I thought the parents were the ones who were supposed to make the decisions about things like that.

And, my guess is that those kids who have a crappy education turn out to be crabby, semi-literate old guys who blog all day long.

By jim d

November 12, 2008 6:27 PM | Link to this

Wow,

Why’d I just know you wouldn’t answer the F’n question.

By The NEEDED "national standard"

November 12, 2008 7:29 PM | Link to this

Much as one wants to laud the Gates, when it comes to education, they just don’t get it. If they want to leverage their funds and influence for real improvement, they need to focus on support for teachers in matters of discipline.

Do you think an employee at Microsoft can curse, threaten, and even physically assault a Microsoft manager? Then why do we let students do it, without real consequence to the teachers who “manage” them?

No one in their right mind would expect a manager to be “accountable” for employees, yet the employees be allow to not work, disrupt, and even physically assault the manager. But we expect teachers to operate under those same conditions and be “accountable” for results.

And then we have the nerve to talk about teacher quality? Please. Let’s have an honest talk about quality teaching conditions then, and only then will we have a moral right to talk about “teacher quality”.

By c'mon

November 12, 2008 8:57 PM | Link to this

Jim D, Yes, pleae explain the wonders of free-markets these days…

Heads up…Marx predicted that socialism could only grow out of a free-market, hyper-capitalist society. An economic evolution, if you will. Any socialist experiment that did not value the need for capitalism as a forerunner was doomed to failure.

Guess what…free-market greed was just voted out. Come what may, but I think we now see that a few less multi-billionaires is no skin off the collecive nose.

Just relax, we’re going to be okay…once we stop hating each other because of our own misguided egos. Really, the good outweighs the evil my friend.

By DB

November 12, 2008 9:50 PM | Link to this

So, c’mon, you’re saying that we now live in the U.S.S.A? Oh, please.

“Free market greed” was just voted out? Hardly. In a couple of years, when Obama hasn’t been able to make good on all those promises and runs out of money to give away, they will turn on him in a heartbeat because their mortgages aren’t paid and their cars aren’t given to them free as part of the auto industry bailout, and he will find himself to be a one-term president, a la Jimmy Carter — who also wrestled with a run-away economy.

The multi-billionaires are generally responsible for quite a bit of economic growth in this country. A few less multi-billionaires usually means quite a few less jobs and less money in the economy. This economy has been on a path to squelch economic excellence for the last 15 years. In 2000, 7 of the top 10 Forbes richest people in the world were Americans. In 2007, it was down to 2. Oddly, though, India is making great strides, with 4 of the top 10 in 2007 — must be all that work we’re sending to India. Can you POSSIBLY draw any speculations from this phenomenon?

I don’t hate anyone — but I sure do bemoan shortsighted hero-worship. I wish him well, because it is in my best interests to do so — I HOPE Obama can make some sort of sense out of this mess, but I’m pretty sure giving away money he doesn’t have isn’t going to do it.

By fedup

November 12, 2008 10:05 PM | Link to this

Georgia has state standards and they are watered down. Standards put limits on what teachers teach. The Georgia standards dictate what teachers so cover- no more and no less. The problem I have is NO MORE. Kids don’t get acceleration when they have met the standards. Educrats are pushing to do away with traditional grading and going to a met the standard or did not meet the standard policy. How will colleges determine GPA with a grading system like this? This is government trying to force socialism on us again. Us whatever power you have and don’t let this happen to children. Children that work hard and make good grades deserve to get into the best schools. We have to value hard work and success. If we go to this “met the standard” policy we are not rewarding hard work. We are basically saying it is important to do just enough.

By jim d

November 13, 2008 4:56 AM | Link to this

Careful what you wish for, you might just get it.

In the words of Adolphe Blanqui

“In all the revolutions, there have always been but two parties opposing each other; that of the people who wish to live by their own labor, and that of those who would live by the labor of others…. Patricians and plebeians, slaves and freemen, guelphs and ghibellines, red roses and white roses, cavaliers and roundheads, liberals and serviles, are only varieties of the same species.”

“So, in one country, it is through taxes that the fruit of the laborer’s toil is wrested from him, under pretense of the good of the state; in another, it is by privileges, declaring labor a royal concession, and making one pay dearly for the right to devote himself to it. The same abuse is reproduced under more indirect, but no less oppressive, forms, when, by means of custom-duties,the state shares with the privileged industries the benefits of the taxes imposed on all those who are not privileged.”

By jim d

November 13, 2008 5:00 AM | Link to this

c’mon,

I contend a free market education could be no worse than what we currently have.

By jim d

November 13, 2008 6:52 AM | Link to this

c,mon,

A parting thought this morning.

In the past week stock markets around the world have expierenced how many good things? Would you believe none?

Ya think that maybe—-just maybe —- the market likes capitalists and is preparing itself for a marxist world regime? Think about it on your way to the soup line.

By Elsie

November 13, 2008 2:12 PM | Link to this

50 states agreeing on national standards? Sure, it might work in primary grades, where we’re talking about time and money. What happens, though, when we get to high school science? Does no one recall the great evolution debate in the last few years? And that was just in Georgia!

By Tony

November 13, 2008 2:56 PM | Link to this

No. We do not need national standards. We also do not need a college dropout computer programmer dictating to the rest of this nation how to run our schools.

Please read some literature to get ideas about how national standards would be used: Brave New World (Huxley), 1984 (Orwell), Harrison Bergeron (Vonnegut).

By Tony

November 13, 2008 2:58 PM | Link to this

Excellent citation jim d.

By jim d

November 13, 2008 3:38 PM | Link to this

Thanks Tony,

I suspect I’ll be using a few other citations in the near future as I can see all the vultures circling above this bail out plan and the unions about to make a real power grab with the Card-check bill.

I fear we are in for a long 4 years, and our children are in for a longer haul still.

By catlady

November 13, 2008 6:07 PM | Link to this

You might argue that we already have national standards. See national tests, like ITBS, College Boards (ACT, SAT), and AP tests. Now, do you mean a national CURRICULUM?