AJC > Sports > Braves > Blog > Archives > 2008 > November > 09 > Entry
DEL.ICIO.USRejuvenated as Peavy watch continues
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Mesa, Ariz. _ My batteries have had a very necessary recharge, folks. Just got back from a great ride up and back to Jerome, Ariz., the self-proclaimed “Hard-Drinking Biker Town With an Artist Problem” (the slogan on T-shirts you can buy up there).
For those not familiar with it, Jerome is an tiny old ghost town at 5,200 feet altitude, literally perched on the side of a mountain. These days it’s full of bars, gift shops, restaurants and art galleries, with an actual population of only about 1,200.
But on a weekend afternoon, there’s probably two or three times that many people in town, what with all the tourists and hundreds of bikers who ride all manner of two-wheeled beasts up the famous two-lane road from Prescott, Ariz. The route has about 120 or so switchback and hairpin curves and extreme grades, unfit for big trucks or anyone afraid of heights (some thousand-foot drops if you look over the edge of the low guardrails).
Anyway, your Crusading Everyman froze his butt off for about an hour at mid-ride. I rented a Harley and rode up from Mesa. Thankfully they gave me rain gear because it began pouring while I was eating lunch in Jerome. Rode down the mountain in heavy rain and 48-degree temps with thunder and lightning (kinda cool experiencing that while literally up in the cloud — but not something I want to do again).
Fortunately it stopped raining before I got back on the main highway to Phoenix (17, the one from Phoenix to Flagstaff), because going at high speeds would’ve been impossible if it hadn’t stopped raining. And fortunately, I bought a heavier pair of gloves at the Harley shop before I took off, because after those got soaked and my hands were freezing, I had to switch back to my older pair, which were nice and dry.
Man, does it smell good in the desert mountains after it rains. Can’t even describe how fresh it smells up there. There’s no better way to experience this big ol’ country of ours than on a motorcycle, I can tell you that. Any of our denizens or other readers who have a bike, wouldn’t you agree? No doubt.
Anyway, I’m here for the Arizona Fall League to do two or three stories on Braves prospects that will run later this week, including a story on the man of the hour, Tommy Hanson, and one of Paul Bunyon-esque catcher Tyler Flowers, who’s tied for the AFL lead with seven homers.
But since they don’t play AFL games on Sunday, and since I had a pretty good feeling nothing would happen on the trade front today, I decided to use the afternoon wisely (but took my laptop in my backpack just in case, with it wrapped in a plastic hotel-room laundry bag anticipating rain).
In the back of my mind the whole ride up there, I was thinking, worrying, “This will be the Sunday when the biggest trade since Tim Hudson goes down, when I get a call two hours outside Phoenix announcing the trade” — so I took my laptop just in case, with my wireless broadband card. Fortunately, didn’t have to use it.
Now, where were we? Oh, yeah, waiting for a possible trade involving Jake Peavy. You’ve perhaps heard the Braves are trying to get the Padres ace? Yes, thought you might have.
Folks, barring some surprising late push from a team that simply overwhelms the Padres with a new offer, it’s going to be the Braves or Cubs who land the 2007 Cy Young Award winner. And since the few other teams Peavy would agree to be traded to seemingly don’t have the package of prospects that they are willing to part with and would satisfy what Padres GM Kevin Towers is looking for, I’m fairly certain it’ll be the Braves or Cubs.
And since the various possible offers from the Cubs that have been reported thus far seem to fall short of the Braves’ likely offer of Yunel Escobar, Gorkys Hernandez or Jordan Schafer, and one or two pitching prospects from a group that might include Charlie Morton, Jo-Jo Reyes, or one of the younger guys (not named Hanson), I’m still of the belief that the Braves are favored over the Cubs to get Peavy.
But I also know that some others think the Cubs moved ahead, for whatever reason. So we’ll see. I do think it’ll happen well before the December 7-11 Winter Meetings in Vegas, and probably before Thanksgiving. But whether it’ll be in the next week, I’m not as certain. But there’s a decent chance.
The Braves would like it to happen yesterday, or last week. In other words, as soon as possible. Because while they are moving forward and discussing other trades and talking to free agents’ representatives, they really need to know whether they’re likely to land Peavy before they start allocating major trade pieces toward other deals, including a power-hitting outfielder.
For instance, if the Braves aren’t going to trade Escobar (or Kelly Johnson, though the Padres seem unlikely to accept KJ as a centerpiece) in a Peavy deal, then they could make a stronger bid for Cardinals OF Ryan Ludwick, whose 37 homers last season were 10 more than all Braves outfielders combined. (Think about that, folks. It’s amazing, really is.)
And if they’re not going to land Peavy, the Braves need to be ready to make substantial offers to a couple of other premier starters, though the bidding is going to be high for any legit No. 1-type starter available, even the injury-plagued ones.
OK, that’s all for now. Try to be patient a little longer, denizens. I think we’re about to finally start seeing some action, or at least some new rumors this week. And if we don’t, well, we can keep questioning the integrity of everyone involved in the current rumors, right? Good. It’s a plan. Ready, break.
Diversions: Bubdylan (one of our denizens) wanted a list of 10 James McMurtry tunes he should download, sans big James’ more political stuff. While some of his protest tunes are my favorites, we can certainly get you that list, Bubdylan. Here’s one gem that fits the bill:
”HURRICANE PARTY” by James McMurtry
The hurricane party’s windin’ down and we’re all waitin’ for the end
And I don’t won’t another drink, I only want that last one again
He gave me such a fine glow, smokin’ slow, now I should probably be homeward bound
There’s just no one to talk to when the lines go down
I guess that in the morning I’ll go lookin’ for my gray-striped cat
My old house can take the weather so I’m not too concerned about that
It was built to take the wind back in nineteen-and-ten when this was one damned fine town
But now there’s no one to talk to when the lines go down
Candles flickered on the back bar and the building was shakin’ with the wind
I bought a whiskey for the gypsy and she turned my leather back into skin
Just a fleeting sense of that rare suspense I once thought made the world go round
But now there’s no one to talk to when the lines go down
Open up your back screen door
Let me see your face once more
My hands are cold and my feet so sore
And I can’t go on this way
And the thoughts come too fast and too many to keep count, best just to let ‘em on through
Now I’m breaking those glass insulators with my old 22
Off the telephone polls as a half dollar rolls across the knuckles of a rodeo clown
There’s just no one to talk to when the lines go down
My one great love, my God, I can feel her still
She ran off to California and now she’s living in those Hollywood Hills
With some bullfrog prince, I’ve not seen her since
Though she calls when he’s out of town
And there’s no one to talk to when the lines go down
Open up your back screen door
Let me in your space once more
I was looking for an easy score
But it just don’t work that way
Some insurance-man biker is yellin’ out for one more beer
But a part-time pirate just can’t get much respect around here
We got our problems too, man we’ll get to you
In just a minute, sit your drunk ass down
Yeah, there’s no one to talk to when the lines go down
Now there’s water up past the wheel wells of my Ford and I don’t guess that it’ll run
But I left a pack of Winston’s on the dash, could you fetch ‘em for me son?
The morning’s first cigarette, that’s as good as it gets all day I should know by now
But there’s no one to talk to when the lines go down
.JPG)
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Comments
By FANcoeur
November 9, 2008 10:08 PM | Link to this
Thanks for the new blog, Chief!
By Salty Dawg
November 9, 2008 10:11 PM | Link to this
Ahhh, new blog. Tasty.
By Nelson
November 9, 2008 10:13 PM | Link to this
you know you can rent cars in Arizona right?
By Herm Edwards goes for 2
November 9, 2008 10:17 PM | Link to this
Thanks for the new blog, chief
By prattvillenolzfan
November 9, 2008 10:19 PM | Link to this
DOB
You Motorcycle trip sounds kinda like the Trail of the Dragon in the Great Smokies…many hairpin turns, not fit for large trucks….just doesn’t have the 1000 ft drops……
Anyway……the Braves have always kept their negotiations close to the vest, they have always been quiet about who they want…
I have no doubt that Wren will do the right thing, but IF the Padres trades Peavy to the Cubs, and the Rockies/Cards finalize the trade ESPN reported over the week-end, I would seriously question whether or not Wren has what it takes to be GM….
I know he was in a bad situation in Baltimore, AND I know that the Braves does not negotiate in public, BUT it seems like if the Braves ARE the frontrunner, it seems to me that the deal would have already been done……
By dan
November 9, 2008 10:21 PM | Link to this
DOB
Any idea who the Cubs might be including in their package?
Also, any guesses on who plays SS for Atlanta next year if Yunnel goes to San DIego?
By David O'Brien
November 9, 2008 10:25 PM | Link to this
Nelson, I assume that was in jest. Otherwise … well, you might have missed the point about the ride from Prescott to Jerome. (But again, I assume you were being facetious.)
By Alan
November 9, 2008 10:25 PM | Link to this
DOB, if the Braves do in fact get Peavy and Escobar is part of the bounty, who do you predict will be the Braves’ starting SS in ‘09? I’m not crazy about any of the names being bandied about aside from J.J. Hardy, and I can’t believe that he’s really on the trading block.
By prattvillenolzfan
November 9, 2008 10:27 PM | Link to this
I was soooo excited about being one of the 1st posters, I hit enter before I was done…
Seriously though the only thing I was going to finish saying is that I feel it is important we land Peavy because of the bargain it will cost us.
There’s no way we can bid for CC, (or for that matter, I don’t think we could afford Burnett as well…).
Signing Peavy and possibly trading for Ludwick will give us 2/3 of the puzzle we need and still give us almost 20 Million to spend…….
By LeeBrave
November 9, 2008 10:28 PM | Link to this
Thanks for the great Blogs, David! You have kept the fans up to date on what has been a weird, exciting, frustrating, & hopeful week. that was great reporting e-mailing Barry Axelrod to clarify a few things.
Lets hope the Braves land Peavy!!
By Coach (Skip and Pete will be missed)
November 9, 2008 10:28 PM | Link to this
Personally, I would be willing to throw the Cubs a bone for the services of Rich Hill. The big lefty had a solid year n 2007 but 2008 proved to be disastrous. He is out of options, still makes the major league minimum and won’t be eligible for free agency until 2014.
The Cubs will be hard pressed to find a spot in their rotation or bullpen for the talented young lefty next year. I smell opportunity knocking at the door. Frank Wren, will you please answer it?
By David O'Brien
November 9, 2008 10:29 PM | Link to this
prattvillenolzfan: yes, like Tail of the Dragon (not Trail). But turns are tighter, some with 15 mph speed limits. Probably not as good for driving a car as Tail of the Dragon. But very scenic, with view of huge, open vistas and valleys thousands of feet below
By Andy K.
November 9, 2008 10:30 PM | Link to this
Please let the deal go down this week. I dunno if I can take much more. Plus, DOB needs some off-time for his b-day, so if the deal goes down in the next few days, he can do what he needs to do, then enjoy himself.
By Joe M.
November 9, 2008 10:30 PM | Link to this
The St. Louis Post-Dispatch says that the Holliday-Ludwick deal is dead.
I still would rather trade Escobar for Peavy than Johnson for flash-in-the-pan Ludwick.
By Bubdylan
November 9, 2008 10:35 PM | Link to this
DOB, listening to my shiny new download of Hurricane Party right now and loving it. Picked up Levelland earlier, and it’s perfect. Either James doesn’t miss or you have the exact idea what I’m looking for. Many, many thanks. Picking up some more McMurtry (I only had 4) was long, long overdue.
By Steve from OH
November 9, 2008 10:36 PM | Link to this
‘Tis a good shrubbery. I like the laurels particularly.
In all seriousness, thanks for the blog DOB.
Lew, it’s all good man. No need to apologize. I know it’s all in good fun.
By Johnny B
November 9, 2008 10:36 PM | Link to this
Wow DOB, sounds like a great time!
One of my all time favorite rides was on a 58’ Panhead I owned back in the late 80’s. We took a 2 week trip across the plains, Continental divide and final up Pikes peak ( dirt roads are fun on a 700 pound beast! ) Up the mountain was great…down the mountain with drum brakes and tank shift / foot clutch on a rigid frame was an adventure in itself!
Hope you have a great week and keep the stories coming, hopefully the deal gets done so we can move forward. I’d hate to lose a chance on another trade or FA pick-up because of the timing.
I assume the Braves are going to wait it out without giving an ultimatum? Can’t see them adding anyone more of significant value than is on the table so lets “gitter dun”!
If it does drag out who would benefit in the trade itself? Do you think there is someone else the Padres are demanding or are they hoping for an ” over the top” offer from someone else? Any chance the Braves start lessening the offer to move it along?
By Wayne
November 9, 2008 10:37 PM | Link to this
Dave Never done that ride, although my SLC to Phoenix excursion in the drop top Mustang back in August was enough to satisfy me for a short while.
I rode bikes back 30-35 years back. Now, I prefer 4 wheels under my behind, but definitely NO top! (Jeep Wrangler and Mustang convertible together keeps me happy!)
One of the saddest days of the year (close second to the last day the Braves play) was 8 days ago when I stored the Mustang for the winter, and put the top back on the Jeep. It stays off from roughly April through early November.
Here’s to hoping we get some movement on the trade front this week!
By Wayne
November 9, 2008 10:41 PM | Link to this
Coach I’m with you on Hill. Would be a good project. Escpecially if we don’t resign Hampton or Glavine, we are going to need a lefty for the rotation.
Dave has anybody in management discussed the potential issue of having all righties in the rotation?
By Johnny B
November 9, 2008 10:41 PM | Link to this
Tail of the Dragon is a great ride as well. So are the Chimney sweeps going from the Cherokee reservation across to Gatlinburg.
By Thrillhouse44
November 9, 2008 10:44 PM | Link to this
Sunday night blogs? What a perfect end to a great weekend. Well, the perfect end would have been getting Peavy for JoJo straight up, but this isn’t bad either. Thanks for the hard work.
How bad is the Peavy stalemate going to hurt the Braves’ hunt for other trades?
By Joe M.
November 9, 2008 10:44 PM | Link to this
O’Brien,
Since you have gone west to Arizona, and were worried about a telephone call today about a Peavy trade (can never remember a Sunday trade happening before), wouldn’t Go West’s “Call Me” be a nice fit for your blog song?
By Skiz
November 9, 2008 10:51 PM | Link to this
You might wanna proofread that first sentence there Dave ;)
By Wayne
November 9, 2008 10:53 PM | Link to this
Just noticed that Shea Hillenbrand is looking for a comeback team. He was always good with the bat, and a liability with the glove.
Would he be such a liability that he could’t cover third when Chipper needs a blow? Just trying to add a piece that has a bit more pop than Infante and Prado at third.
By Eric from MO
November 9, 2008 10:57 PM | Link to this
prattvillenolzfan you cant really blame Wren. He has to wait on the Peavy trade and you dont want him to do something stupid and trade waaaay to much. But you cant really blame the Padres. They have over 4 months of offseason. Why would they care if this gets done the first week. Maybe they are hoping the Braves, Cubs, or another team comes in and commits a really stupid trade. As a Braves fan you do not want Wren to do this.
By ugapip
November 9, 2008 10:58 PM | Link to this
Good post DOB.
My take on this whole situation is that we indeed get Peavy. I would also trade Johnson for Ludwick. I would then get on the horn and talk Furcal in coming back to Atlanta to reconnect with Bobby and Chipper. He loves Bobby! My lineup would then be: Furcal(ss), Anderson (cf), Chipper (3b), McCann (c), Ludwick (lf), Prado (2b), Kochman (1b), Francoer (rf).
We can then sign: another pitcher, Norton as our main PH, and then go after a backup catcher who can actually hit.
I hoping for great things next year!!
By Steve from OH
November 9, 2008 10:59 PM | Link to this
Joe Posnanski is apparently on the panel for the Dewan fielding bible, and did an analysis of all the gold glove picks. Check it out.
By Bubdylan
November 9, 2008 11:02 PM | Link to this
Would he be such a liability that he could’t cover third when Chipper needs a blow?-Wayne
What in the hell kind of organization we runnin’ here?
By Interested Observer
November 9, 2008 11:02 PM | Link to this
I just can’t see the Cubs being able to come up with a better package than the Braves. I just hope Wren isn’t bidding against himself. That’s the mistake JS made with the Texeira deal. He banked everything on acquiring Tex and the Rangers held the deal up right to the deadline and had JS upping the ante against himself.
By MizzouBravesFan
November 9, 2008 11:03 PM | Link to this
I still have this weird feeling it’s happening tomorrow or Tuesday at the latest.
By brent a.
November 9, 2008 11:05 PM | Link to this
Hawks 5-0
Falcons 6-3
Not shabby for the Atlanta sports’ scene.
By Lou Vales
November 9, 2008 11:08 PM | Link to this
Dear David, I’m enjoying my new civility. Check out the Georgia Blog. I wanted to ask if you had heard anything about Olsen to the Braves?? I actually have a buddy privy to Marlins info—No, I don’t mean the ESPN Blog— and he hasn’t relayed anything and he has usually been right in the past. If you knew what REALLY killed the Manny to the Marlins deal last Summer you would be mortified, AND the marlins would not even draw those 5,000-7,000 who actually show up. One person appears to be holding up the dispatching of Hermida for a couple of dish towels. No aggression, no drive and basically a total waste of talent.
By Nelson
November 9, 2008 11:10 PM | Link to this
I want to know why suddenly Escobar is not a favorite player in Atlanta???. When he started to play he was doing everything possible to help the team: Hitting the opposite way, bunting to advance the runners, being patient at home, stealing bases, and then everything changed to become a pull hitter like your beloved Francoeur, he is the one that should be traded! What exactly is going on inside this team, could somebody explain me because I don’t understand
By kirknga
November 9, 2008 11:10 PM | Link to this
In addition to what the competing clubs are offering, it is also going to come down to where Peavy feels is the best fit for him. As his agent said, they are approaching this as if he were a FA.
By Eric from MO
November 9, 2008 11:11 PM | Link to this
Interested Observer, I agree. That is why I think it is a good thing it didnt get done in the first week. It shows that Wren refuses to do something stupid.
By kirknga
November 9, 2008 11:12 PM | Link to this
brent a
You’re right very encouraging for Atlanta sports fans. Makes me more hopeful that the Braves can once again contend.
By Nelson
November 9, 2008 11:25 PM | Link to this
Of course the first time you actually respond to my post has to be when I’m joking and not actually being serious. Just my luck!
By kirknga
November 9, 2008 11:34 PM | Link to this
Nelson, I don’t think it’s that Escobar has fallen out of favor so much as it is the Braves prefer to trade him rather than trade the prospect Hanson.
Apparently Hanson is of such promise that the Braves would trade Escobar. I guess it’s more about protecting Hanson than disliking Escobar.
By Nelson
November 9, 2008 11:34 PM | Link to this
Hey DOB The post at 11:10pm and the post at 10:13pm are by two different people. Weird.
By Eric from MO
November 9, 2008 11:35 PM | Link to this
Nelson, why would the Padres want Francouer? He hit under .240 with no power. He has no trade value. That is why Escobar is being shopped for Peavy. We dont want to do it, but there is no other choice.
By Nocturnal Owl
November 9, 2008 11:36 PM | Link to this
I think we are offering plenty just like how we ran away as clear favorite in TEX trade. I say lets get bold and switch KJ with Yunel in the offer. Don’t want it now? tough luck. I also got the sense some sort of resolution will occur shortly. Wren is ready for action:)
By richbrave
November 9, 2008 11:37 PM | Link to this
DAVID O’BRIEN:
My readin’ never got past JEROME bro’. Really missing the place. Absolutely green with envy. Sorry it got so cold. Had to have been pretty tough in those conditions.
As for the ARIZONA winter league, being wistful that you won’t be providin’ smoggy old RICHMOND fans a heads up like MORTON for this upcoming season.
The gaffe caused by our departing mayor DOUG WILDER, has left quite a baseball desert in town. Absolutely no BB in ‘09 above college level.
There is now a grandiose 800 million proposal on the table which ‘DA MAYAH’ is now on board with. They plan to revisit the SHOCKOE CREEK flood-zone with a stadium complex 10 feet below ground level. Imagine, hundreds of millions to build a mixed-use development, and a below ground ball-park in a frickin’ flood zone, and I mean FLOOD as in fifteen feet above street level. That’s occurred five times in the past thirty years….
Of course, there will be no public funds necessary. Yeah, yeah, I’ve heard that one before. Quick let me grab some PREPERATION H before I bend over. JEEZE. Anyway, tell FW to stay the course now that we and the CUBS seem to be the finalists in the JAKE PEAVY derby. Enjoy that life on the road my man. Later.
By ugapip
November 9, 2008 11:45 PM | Link to this
Nelson, Francoer doesn’t have as much trade value as Escobar. I would love to keep him but sometimes you have to use your assets to make your team better.
If the Royals would give us Grienke for Francoer straight-up, I would do it.
By Lou Vales
November 9, 2008 11:59 PM | Link to this
They won’t!!
By FANcoeur
November 10, 2008 12:05 AM | Link to this
Because Nelson, Francoeur is a budding superstar who is guaranteed to bounce back big next season, while Escobar is just an overrated, average player whose antics annoy many.
By ORbravesFAN
November 10, 2008 12:13 AM | Link to this
Nelson,
You can not be serious! Do you know anything about baseball? Frenchy had his worst year as a pro (stock has dropped) and Escobar had a good year for his first year playing full time. If you want to get an ace you must give up something good as well.
Thanks for the blog DOB, hopefully in the next one we will be taking about the players we had to give up to finalize the Peavy deal!
By KC - Rick
November 10, 2008 12:27 AM | Link to this
Would be interested in seeing who the players are the Cubs are dangling. I don’t see Morton or Reyes ever being much of anything. Pitching wins and if we could get Peavy for Escobar and one of the 2 above I’d do it tomorrow. Then, I’d pick Renteria back up as a “stop gap” at shortstop. He really hated leaving ATL and it showed in DET. Obviously not a defensive wizard but a player they could get cheap. Especially knowing DET has to pay him $3M. I’d throw in Gorky too if we had to.
By Chipper'sJonze
November 10, 2008 12:35 AM | Link to this
I am not excited about the idea of losing either of the two middle infielders the Braves have currently. Even Jake Peavy does not want to join a team that has a weakened defense playing behind him. Jake’s agent has said he would veto a trade if Escobar is a part of the deal, as he wants to be on a winning team. I hope they can put an offer together that does not include any of the starters from this infield.
By Scottbravesfan
November 10, 2008 12:35 AM | Link to this
Nelson,
Escobar hasn’t fallen out of favor with the Braves, they would rather give up Kelly Johnson but the Padres want Escobar. And I like esco as much as the next guy but if it’s someone as good as Peavy on the line, you got to take that deal. I would rather give up Johnson as well and keep Escobar. Hopefully the Braves will go out and either bring back Renteria or Furcal if they do trade Escobar.
Also for those mentioning the Atlanta sports teams.
6-3 Falcons 5-0 Hawks And the Thrashers have won 4 in a row. They play the Hurricanes again on Thursday and if they win that game they will only be two points out of the division lead after starting so horribly.
By brAves Sucios
November 10, 2008 12:36 AM | Link to this
Honestly, other than Chipper, McCann and Norton I’m not going to cry over anybody from last year whether we keep, trade, release or send them down… that stat alone about Ludwick’s homers vs. OUR ENTIRE TEAMS’ speaks volumes, Francoeur had a bad enough year to justify getting whatever we can out of him (probably nothing much, so he’ll get at least one more shot in Atlanta/the Big Leagues) and we’ve traded off, lost to injury or let go most of the other “special” players we had. Of course Smoltz is and should be a given when he gets healed up, and we can wait and see about Glavine and Mr. Glass in the starting rotation… also hoping Gonzo stays healthy. Other than that, let’s use the Mr. Fusion to turn some garbage into enough power to take us back to ‘91. Go Braves!
By Curt
November 10, 2008 12:40 AM | Link to this
DOB I have a funny story about my trek to Jerome
2 years ago I went on spring break with my then girlfriend, now fiancee, and her parents. We flew out to Sedona before eventually making our way to Vegas and flying out of there. (Luckly I am marrying into a little money cause my family doesnt have much of the stuff, her father owns several cigar stores in Birmingham, Al so let me know if you are ever in need of a good cigar in Bham!)
We rented a Jeep Commander, mainly for the large trunk and drove it from the airport in pheonix to Sedona. One of the things we wanted to do was go to Jerome since it was close. We ate lunch at this nice resort and the people their told us of a dirt road shortcut to get to 89A that would take us up to Jerome. Well we tried to follow their directions but they were not very good. We turned onto a dirt road, which we soon realized was the wrong one when we saw those jacked up Jeeps they use for rock crawling tours on the same road as us. But my fiancee’s father is adventurous and so am I so we foolishly said we could handle the trail, plus if turned back now we might miss the sunset in Jerome. So we kept going and soon saw why this was the rock crawling trail. I cannot recall how many times i had to get out to check for ground clearance or move a boulder to under the tires so we could have traction up or down a steep embankment. The going was very rough and my fiancee’s mother, a very proper old south type woman, was cursing and making bargins to Jesus for us just to get out alive. It was hilarious! The rest of us were having the time of our lives and she thinks we are all going to die! We eventually make it out, after being told by the rock crawlers that we would never make it in our road going rental SUV. But some how we did and I can tell you the people on those tours could not believe it and must have felt some what ripped off when our vehicle did what the tricked out ones they were paying stupid money to ride in were bulit for.
We ended up making it to Jerome just in time for the sunset and some good grub. Jeep only had some minor under carriage dents!
They place sure is unique and beautiful! Full of history and art as well, both of which I love.
By Alex
November 10, 2008 12:40 AM | Link to this
I really doubt the Pads want Jo-Jo, unless we give them someone like Locke or Delgado with Jo-Jo. JMHO Escobar…. man, he’s a good part of the team, but I’d live with parting with him for Peavy. Then go for a good #2/3 starter on the market (think Oliver Perez, Lowe, someone else). Try to sign Furcal (but I heard he wants a 4-year deal or something, so unless the Braves want him for that long) or Renteria (he hates the AL or something?) Get Tazawa, that’d be good for the system too. Is Brandon Hicks gonna be a SS or aa 3B?
By Kevin
November 10, 2008 12:52 AM | Link to this
DOB your reference about having two pair of gloves reminded me of the long ride to Aspen in Dumb and Dumber where Lloyd had an extra pair of gloves the whole time and Harry’s hands were almost frostbitten. Great movie.
By Klstreet
November 10, 2008 12:54 AM | Link to this
I almost believe if the Braves get Peavy and have to trade Escobar then it might be better. Think about it. Yunel is not a leadoff hitter, he is a number two, as is Kelly Johnson. Leadoff is something the Braves desperately need. So if we can get Furcal in free agency then he could hit leadoff which he is very good at while Kelly hits behind him in a role he is much better suited for.
By David O'Brien
November 10, 2008 12:59 AM | Link to this
Johnny B, a ‘58 Panhead, huh? Nice. Can’t believe you treated that thing like that. Riding down a dirt road on a rigid bike? Damn, you must’ve been sore for a week….
I’d like to ride Pike’s Peak. My sister’s got a condo up in Summit County, Colo., but only time I can get out there is in winter — great for snowboarding, but not for riding….
RichBrave, it was awesome. Weather be damned. Only made it more interesting (miserable for about 30 minutes, but the rain gear saved me, as did the windscreen on that bike (a 2009 Harley Low Rider, brand new, with 100 break-in miles on it when I picked it up). I don’t have a windscreen on my bikes at home, and now I know why I should never get one — waay too easy to go very fast when you don’t have the wind and noise reminding you as much of every additonal mph. I need the wind to beat me up to remind me to slow down….
Wayne, four wheels or two, wind’s in the face. That’s key, right?….
Skiz, just re-read the blog for first time, fixed that line. But I actually liked it better the way it was….
Alright, gonna watch Entourage. It’s just about to start out here. “One take? Love that!”
By Coach ( Skip and Pete will be missed)
November 10, 2008 1:10 AM | Link to this
There are two other factors which might adversely affect the Peavy trade.
Peavy could ask that his no trade clause to be extended through the end of his current contract and for the fifth year 22 million option to be guaranteed.
The no trade clause could be a stumbling block but for Peavy to want the full five years and 80 million is only fair when considering the monster contract that Sabathia is about to get.
By Crap-Wheelie
November 10, 2008 1:14 AM | Link to this
Level Land Song for a Deckhand’s Daughter Where’d You Hide the Body? Childish Things 12 O’Clock Whistle Vague Directions No More Buffalo Rachel’s Song Out Here in the Middle Holiday
That’s my list of the 10 best McMurtry songs.
By TK
November 10, 2008 1:37 AM | Link to this
I was hoping the Peavy trade might get bigger and the Braves also get Chase Headley. I saw him several times in college. He can play. He could play LF and backup Chipper (he is a very good at 3rd). I do not think SD will let him go in a trade though.
By Coach ( Skip and Pete will be missed)
November 10, 2008 1:41 AM | Link to this
there are two factors that could adversely affect the proposed Jake Peavy trade.
One, Peavy could ask that his no trade clause be included in the rest of his contract.
Two, Peavy would be well within his rights to want the final fifth year 22 million option to be guaranteed. After all, Sabathia is about to get much more than the 80 million minimum that Peavy has coming.
By Kevin
November 10, 2008 1:49 AM | Link to this
Not sure if everyone read this already but ESPN’s Buster Olney did a piece on the dark days ahead for the Padres franchise. Here’s an excerpt concerning the Braves and Peavy: “Jake Peavy, the franchise’s best player, will be traded soon. There has been progress between the Padres and Braves in talks in recent days, with Gorkys Hernandez being added to shortstop Yunel Escobar within the proposed package of players that will likely be shipped from Atlanta to San Diego. The Padres will also continue to talk with the Cubs and Dodgers, but the expectation is a deal should go down before Thanksgiving.” Here’s hoping this turns out to be correct.
By Woah Nelly
November 10, 2008 1:50 AM | Link to this
“As for the right-handed Pat Burrell, he has drawn very little interest from the Braves. Although he’s hit at least 29 homers each of the past four seasons, Burrell is a .257 career hitter whose lack of speed makes him a defensive liability.”
Oh sure, the Braves don’t like Burrell, but they sure love Jeff frickin’ Francoeur.
By Heat
November 10, 2008 1:53 AM | Link to this
Peavy,Lowe,Jurrjens,Smoltz could be a decent start to reloading
By Coach ( Skip and Pete will be missed)
November 10, 2008 2:05 AM | Link to this
The other thing that I think could be holding up progress is Khalil Greene. The Padres have the SS up for trade along with Jake Peavy and they want pitching for Greene.
I don’t know if anybody else has or has not read this article from last Thursday, but it threw me for a loop.
Jake Peavy throws curveball at Braves
By David O'Brien
November 10, 2008 2:05 AM | Link to this
Bubdylan, I can’t limit it to 10. Just too difficult, even when I don’t include any of his great political songs. Here’s just a list of some of my very favorites of his, including three of his most recent album:
Ruby and Carlos, Just Us Kids and Fireline Road (all off the remarkable Just Us Kids album from this year (you really should listen to “The Ruins of the Realm” from that album, too; it’s not really as political as a few other great songs on that album are); Too Long In the Wasteland, Levelland, Choctaw Bingo (get the live version off the *Live in Aught-three” album), Red Dress, Rachel’s Song, Lights of Cheyenne, Where’d You Hide the Body?, Charlemagne’s Home Town, Childish Things, No More Buffalo, Rachel’s Song, We Can’t Make It Here Anymore, Saint Mary Of the Woods, Out Here in the Middle, Holiday, Fuller Brush Man.
By Nocturnal Owl
November 10, 2008 2:07 AM | Link to this
Frenchy doesn’t even make half a million per. Even with terrible year he has .268 career BA, with an upside.
Burrell makes Millions per and has even worse career BA.
Hard to compare the two. Safe bet that we will upgrade in OF soon.
By Bravestillidie
November 10, 2008 2:18 AM | Link to this
DOB Out of curiousity, how far away is Diory Hernandez to the Majors, I know he is young, so I’m guessing 2010 at the very earliest, but do you think he would even be ready then, or get an opp. then? Just wondering because I’m sure that would have an immediate affect on who the Braves decide to get or use at SS this year should Yunel be dealt.
BTID
By Heat
November 10, 2008 2:27 AM | Link to this
DOB, say Hanson has a great winter league and a heck of a spring training, is there anyway he could crack the rotation next year.
By David O'Brien
November 10, 2008 2:42 AM | Link to this
Heat: Yes, I think it’s possible Hanson could do that.
By ccrider
November 10, 2008 3:12 AM | Link to this
TO all who lean to one extreme or another. The ” DON’T trade any of our prospects for a recent CY young winner, to the Trade Hanson, Schafer, Heyward Etc. rather than Escobar. We need to look at the situation from Frank Wren side. His job is to make the Braves competitve and at the same time balance both the financial and prospect budgets. He is trying to balance the prospects his scouts has told him are too good to trade and the major league players whom Bobby Cox feels can be replaced. I believe if Escobar is included in the trade, it will be because they feel they can adequately replace him and he is not as essential to the team as we think. Maybe, because of things we don’t know about: attitude, injury prone, etc. I would think that after the trades Frank Wren pulled off last year: A really good young inexpensive starting pitcher(Jurjjens) and a player(Gorky) good enough to be included in the Peavy trade for an aging player that the following season would be bought out and released. Ohman and Infante for Ascanio, ARE YOU KIDDING ME! We all need to have a little faith in Frank, Bobby, his Coaches, the minor league managers of the players we are including and the scouts. These professionals have been way more accurate in their evaluations than most clubs are. I think they will make the right call this time and give us a chance to contend in 2009, much earlier than most think!
By Bubdylan
November 10, 2008 3:22 AM | Link to this
DOB, Thank you, thank you, thank you You’re a rare dude, dude.
I’ll pick up “The Ruins of the Realm.” I almost wrote you again and revised my request to say it didn’t have to be squeaky clean of politics, after all. I don’t just HATE it or anything; but I did crave a JM album/ compilation heavy on the other beats he hits so well. I’ll grab a dozen or so of these tomorrow, really looking forward to it.
By Bubdylan
November 10, 2008 3:38 AM | Link to this
Crap-Wheelie Man, I almost missed your list; the words “Deckhand’s Daughter” buzzed my brain just as I was shutting down. Thanks a bunch, I’ve just pasted your list to Dave’s. Hope I didn’t miss anyone else. I’ll do a big scroll tomorrow and make sure.
By You suck
November 10, 2008 5:26 AM | Link to this
You are exactly why I hate sports writers/announcers. Can we get to the point, please? Nine (count’em- NINE)paragraphs before you even get to the meat of the story. Take your amateur prose somewhere else and write about SPORTS. You and Chris Berman should get together and figure out who is more irrelevant in the sports world.
By RedandBlack
November 10, 2008 6:01 AM | Link to this
Alright Braves Fans, it sounds like something may happen pretty soon for Peavy coming here to Atlanta hopefully. However, I only hope that the players we say good bye and good luck to do not have the last name of Escobar. Escobar hits for average, gets on base frequently, and plays very well defensively. There is no reason to give that caliber of player away in four-five player trade for Peavy deal. The Braves must insist to keep Escobar and Hanson. Trade Johnson and Francouer along with the pitching prospects, but not Escobar or Hanson.
Chipper and other hitters need baserunners on base to hit them in for runs. Escobar does that and plays great defense too. The Braves can easily replace Johnson and Francouer, but they will not have an easy job replacing Yunel Escobar and his offensive and defensive production. There is a reason why this deal has not happened yet and keeping Escobar may be it. Mr. Wren, keep Escobar/Hanson and trade the others. LAND THE PLANE!!! Go Braves!! Go Dogs!!!
By semiballcoach
November 10, 2008 6:03 AM | Link to this
you suck—-this is a blog,if you don’t want the “extras” don’t read this blog and keep your eyes on the mainstream SPORTS sites
By JasonInFL (formerly ME)
November 10, 2008 7:16 AM | Link to this
From the St. Louis Dispatch article provided earlier:
“Any talks with the Braves remain hostage to their ongoing pursuit of San Diego Padres ace Jake Peavy. If the Braves include either Johnson or Escobar to land the 2007 NL Cy Young Award winner, the remaining middle infielder will be taken off the market, leaving the Cardinals to look elsewhere.”
Hopefully not for long!
By LivininAL
November 10, 2008 7:17 AM | Link to this
You suck- You got to your point -now here is mine- I suggest you start your own BLOG - then you would not have to read ANY irritating stuff- Go DOB! and GO Braves!
By 18 Wheels of Love
November 10, 2008 7:20 AM | Link to this
DOB,
ANy thoughts on possible pitchers we might attempt to trade for if the Peavy deal goes South? I’m aware of the FA pitchers available but haven’t heard too much about possible pitching trades. Harang? Olsen? Maybe someone from the Twins?
By steven
November 10, 2008 7:31 AM | Link to this
I think people are way to easily giving up on Francoeur and thinking it will be easy to replace him. He had a bad year, so what. What player in the majors has not had a bad year. Jeff is young, has a cannon arm and has proven he has power. Now you want to throw him into a trade and let him go hit 40 homeruns for another team when our outfield last year was one of the worse in baseball. Give me a break. I am glad a lot of you are not GM’s. You would tear the team apart for sure.
Escobar is not a player I want to give up but there are other short stops. Furcal and Renteria to name a couple. I would not stop at the chance to get Peavy and yes I would give up Escobar. I would let Peavys agent know right up front, there will be a proven short stop behind him so not to worry. We have always gotten a good short stop. No reason to think otherwise. Throw escobar in the deal, do the trade then go for Lowe and or Burnett. Shore up the pitching then work on the outfield.
GO BRAVOS
By Lowcountry Bulldawg
November 10, 2008 7:45 AM | Link to this
Dave,
Often read, rarely post, but I have got to say your blog is the best on the AJC. Your blend of story telling along with your stories is refreshing to read. Also the music inclusion is brilliant. Rarely do I know a song, but it makes me think and go and look them up via Napster. Some I like, others I do not, but its the process I dig. Keep up the awesome work.
By Keeper
November 10, 2008 7:51 AM | Link to this
DOB,
Haven’t the Braves traditionally refused no-trade clauses, or has that changed in recent years? Obviously they can’t do anything about Peavy’s current contract, but if he’s using his veto power as leverage for a no-trade extension in future years, how do you think Wren will respond?
http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2008/oct/20/padres-padres20192741/
By Salty
November 10, 2008 8:00 AM | Link to this
You suck…really, you do!
By Steven Harper
November 10, 2008 8:16 AM | Link to this
This is my first post, so be nice:
DOB - How does it make sense to do this deal?
You are going to trade your good, starting shortstop and 3 good prospects for Jake Peavy, who is making like $11 million. You then have to sign another starting shortstop for $10 million a year, right? I figure both Furcal and Rent will want about this, give or take a million.
So, you are up to bascially $20 for Peavy and replacement SS minus a whole bunch of talent.
Why not sign, say, Burnett for $16-18 million and keep your prospects?
Then trade KJ for Ludwick to fill RF.
Let Prado, Lilbridge, or Infante play 2B.
Have another $20 million or so to shore up another SP.
Retain Gorkys, Morton, Reyes for future (or future trades).
Why, seriously, make this deal instead of going after a different available #1 like Dempster or Burnett?
By kdbanks
November 10, 2008 8:44 AM | Link to this
I love randomly angry people…it’s sad when someone puts a gun to their head and makes them read specific blogs that make them so angry. I guess they have no choice but to lash out. Bless their little hearts.
By Serge
November 10, 2008 8:48 AM | Link to this
Because Jake Peavy is ten times better than Dempster and Burnett? Because its still going to take you prospects to get Ludwick? (They want a premium pitcher and a midle infielder)
I think you have to ask yourself, do i want a better team or do i want to still cheer for the cuban moxie yunel escobar.
By Serge
November 10, 2008 8:51 AM | Link to this
Also Frenchy has power nice one steven! Hilarious!
Frenchy is such a great example of perception v Reality. Hes utterly overrated. Has not had a good season since his half season in 05, has not adjusted to the league and never will. The player you saw this year is more or less what Frenchy is now. Cant wait till hes gone.
By Roach
November 10, 2008 8:56 AM | Link to this
Steven,
We pay the extra money and prospects to get one helluva good pitcher. Dempster/ Burnett arent in the class of Jake Peavy. We have to give up somebody we dont want to but it will help us in the long run. We dont have a pitcher that when they go out you know they are gonna give 7 or 8 strong innings and give you a great chance to win. I personally dont like dempster he had one good year. I dont think we should trade for Ludwick. He had one good year. Trade for peavy, sign or trade for a SS, get another pitcher preferably Burnett/Lowe, and sign a sluggin LF. Dunn/Ibanez/Abreu.
By Steven Harper
November 10, 2008 9:03 AM | Link to this
Serge,
Peavy is not 10 times better than Dempster. Peavy did not post 70 wins and 1870 SOs:
Ryan Dempster ERA W-L SO WHIP BAA 2.96 17-6 187 1.21 .227
Jake Peavy ERA W-L SO WHIP BAA 2.85 10-11 166 1.18 .229
I know which one I’d take without giving up my starting SS, 2 starting pitchers and an elite prospect.
Also, I’ve not heard anything about St. Louis asking for a premium pitcher and KJ. Maybe so, but I’ve not read that anywhere.
I do want a better team, and I do still want to cheer for Escobar.
By BT
November 10, 2008 9:08 AM | Link to this
Steven,you make excellent points about the downside of this trade. Many of us agree with you.
By DAP
November 10, 2008 9:19 AM | Link to this
steven harper if i may…we wouldnt have to pay $10mil for renteria or furcal. there are alot of SS on the market. one guy that i like alot is felipe lopez that we could sign.
i get what your saying…the cost of the players we need to fill holes created by this trade and we could have just signed an ace. i think that wren will take this into consideration when making the deal.
but remember that if peavy were a free agent, hed be getting close to santana, or sabathia money. not dempster money. (dempster is not an ace) or even burnett money. so we would have to spend alot on extra players to have this trade cost us more than a free agent.
but your thought is definetly one that needs to be considered, and i think wren is thinking that way to.
By Dadgum
November 10, 2008 9:20 AM | Link to this
DOB, just to get back to you from the end of the last blog. Yes, Peavy and/or his agent have said both publicly and in print that Peavy obviously is very concerned about the current state of the Braves and their efforts to field a championship team. That I am sure we all agree we can’t hold against him. I mentioned Furcal needing to be signed to get Peavy to agree to the Atlanta deal. While I think that to be true, I really was thinking more along the lines of “Furcal or equivalent”. Doesn’t have to be Furcal exactly. My bad and you were right to question my inclusion of Furcal only.
By DAP
November 10, 2008 9:27 AM | Link to this
how about this guy for a shortstop: Tomohiro Nioka
By Brian
November 10, 2008 9:32 AM | Link to this
I think it will all turn out that the Pads were using the Cubs as a panic move to the Braves. Look on the Cubs homepage and you’ll see how serious they are about Peavy- they know.
By Roach
November 10, 2008 9:32 AM | Link to this
Steven Those stats you give us are from one year look at peavys body of work vs. dempster
Dempster has had one good season. It just so happens the cubs scored a lot of runs and where was dempster in the playoffs 7 walks i cant remember how many runs Peavy is so much better
By glove51
November 10, 2008 9:39 AM | Link to this
DOB:
Have fun out in Phoenix. Here are some dining suggestions for you while you are there. If you like Cuban pulled pork and other Cuban food, go to Cafe Havana at about 42nd and Camelback, great for lunch, a little bitty cafe. So small, you have to go outside to a separate bathroom.
For Tex-Mex, there is a place called Frank and Lupe’s in Old Town Scottsdale, that is a local joint, really good food.
If you want something more upscale and like good seafood, the Ocean Club in Scottsdale is the place to go.
By Brian
November 10, 2008 9:42 AM | Link to this
I still have no clue why I was blocked from posting a freakin blog! My posts make a lot of sense but I must have hit a nerve with DOB which is very silly and childish.
DOB- It’s a sports blog, dude! Whoever reads this and gets offended, well than they need some serious counseling!
By Dadgum
November 10, 2008 9:44 AM | Link to this
Some here have questioned why bring on Peavy, trade Escobar, then spend out the yeng yang for a free agent SS.
Let me tell you why, first the Braves are just north of awful, I hate it as I have been a Braves fan since Milwaukee days/Atlanta Crackers. I love baseball and it hurts to see the team getting the heck beat out of them. Millions more have the same lament not to mention players, coaches, scouts, gm’s you name it. We are all tired of mediocrity and it’s time to take drastic measures.
OK, that was the sentimental reason. Objectively, baseball is all about pitching first. When you aren’t giving up your top-tier pitching prospects for one of the game’s top pitchers then you most likely are losing one of your top position players. With us it is Escobar. SS is the single most important position after pitcher. Some may argue catcher with reason.
Frankly, this trade would be a lot easier if Greene was viewed more favorably by the Braves. He’s not so the wallet has to open up to fill the huge impending gap we will have at SS. Hopefully we will have Peavy and a Furcal type at SS plus some other moves much discussed here over the last week or so. Just the way the game is played these days. That is unless you want to sit through more mediocrity while all the young talent develops over the next few years. 90 + plus losses is hard to swallow in one year let alone multiple years.
The caveat of course is you make the right moves and the stars don’t align. That too is tough but you make the moves to be players and better your team. Yes that includes trading away players you don’t wish to see leave and pay out the yeng yang for free agents you don’t want to pay that much for.
Rock on….it is what it is.
By David O'Brien
November 10, 2008 9:46 AM | Link to this
DAP, I agree with your 9:19 point on shortstops. Among free agents are Renteria, Furcal, Cesar Izturis, Felipe Lopez, Orlando Cabrera, etc.
But at least a couple of them could probably do fine for a year or two for the Braves, if they have to replace Escobar and decide to go the free-agent route.
Then there are a few others who could be available for trade, including Maicer Izturis, Julio Lugo, J.J. Hardy and Jack Wilson. They have flaws or drawbacks, but they might be fine for a year or two in the job.
By DAP
November 10, 2008 9:47 AM | Link to this
brian good observation on the cubs homepage. they dont even mention peavy in any way. here is one reference to the peavy trade i could find in a mailbag from last week.
I’ve been hearing about Jake Peavy getting traded and have been hearing that the Cubs are interested in him. Is it true? — Derek F., Boston
You’ll hear the Cubs mentioned often in rumors about high-priced players this offseason. Would Peavy look good in a Cubs uniform? Sure. But the club’s first priority is negotiating with free agents Ryan Dempster and Kerry Wood. Trades are more probable than signing someone like a Ramirez — who isn’t a good fit — because of the uncertainty about the club’s ownership.
On the eve of the General Managers Meetings, Cubs GM Jim Hendry was quoted in the Daily Herald as saying: “This isn’t a club that needs an overhaul. It’s a 97-win club that just played very poorly for three games in the postseason. When things settle in and a few weeks go by, it’s not like you need 15 new guys.”
doesnt really sound like the writer thinks the cubs are big players in the peavy trade.
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 10, 2008 9:52 AM | Link to this
Thanks for the new Blog, DOB!
Oh boy…ROY will be announced today. Ho-hum…who could it be…?
By David O'Brien
November 10, 2008 9:55 AM | Link to this
Lowcountry, thanks for the kind words. Much appreciated….
Keeper: Regarding no-trade clauses, the issue hasn’t really come up that I know of since Frank Wren replaed John Schuerholz, but I don’t think Wren will follow the rigid rule that John did. He’s already shown in a few instances that he operates differently….
Brian, you were banned for posting racist b.s. Do it again and I can assure you it’ll get your new IP address banned. You think being racist is OK if it’s on a sports blog? Sad. If you can’t help yourself (and judging from you multiple failed atttempts at racist humor, you can’t help yourself), then simply take it to another “sports blog” where the moderator finds it acceptable. That’s not so hard, is it?
You suck: So angry at 5:26 a.m. Rough night?
By Serge
November 10, 2008 10:01 AM | Link to this
Jake Peavys career era is 3.25 and career plus era is 121Dempsters career era 4.55 and career plus era is 95
To somehow say they are even in the same league is insulting to Jake Peavy. Peavy blows Dempster out of the water.
This is more of keeping Escobar than improving the team. Look i get it hes got the “cuban moxie” and people liked that because the Braves normally were a colder vanilla team. But hes not an elite ss, hes not this amazing talent we will rue trading away. He barely hits for any power and can easyly be replacable.
Your getting one of the best pitchers in the market, at an affordable price. His only comparable in Free agency is CC Sabathia and CC will ask for double of what Jake makes.
Get over the Escobar facination and realize we will be better off sans Escobar and plus Peavy
By Daybed Wagmoe
November 10, 2008 10:07 AM | Link to this
Steven Harper — I know that giving up Escobar and top prospects is a lot for Peavy, but compare Peavy’s and Dempter’s career numbers. Peavy’s been way more consistent and had more “good” years. I’m of the opinion that Dempster had a “contract year” — he performed better than usual in a very timely manner (i.e., right before becoming a free agent). Could it be that he’s actually a better pitcher and will continue to pitch like he did this year? Sure, but I wouldn’t bet on it. Peavy’s more of a sure thing than Dempster.
By ncscoots
November 10, 2008 10:14 AM | Link to this
Certainly, there are available SS who might be fine “for a year or two”. But the Braves should hope they get a SS prospect back in some of the wheeling and dealing if they are looking at that time frame. Nothing on the farm suggests that there is a reasonable replacement currently in the system for Escobar, not from A ball up.
By Dan
November 10, 2008 10:14 AM | Link to this
SS Options
Of the SS options in the free agent market…..If the price is right, I would like the braves to sign Orlando Cabrera. Since leaving Montreal, he has been both durable and productive.
Lopez is horrible defensively. Renteria is getting long in the tooth. Furcal has back issues. I do not see the Braves offering valuable prospects in a trade for a SS either.
By Salty
November 10, 2008 10:26 AM | Link to this
Scoots
Leach look attractive to you? That Red Raider offense is a firecracker…and I watched their ‘D’ beat Whitehurst to a pulp in that dismal bowl game a few years back. Charlie proved that day he was tough, if nothing else.
By Serge
November 10, 2008 10:26 AM | Link to this
Felipe Lopez aint “horrible” defensively. He will probably be too expensive though..
If you want a “prospect” Ivan De Jesus from the Dodgers is a really good looking kid. Ive seen him play and hes really impresive.
By wildbird
November 10, 2008 10:29 AM | Link to this
everybody use to love Frenchy, now they seem to hate him strange to me> I am a former player and I know what its like to have bad year, so does most players who have ever really played this game. My next 3 years was the best I ever had. Christ hes only 24 years old you dont give up on talent that young
By Lew
November 10, 2008 10:33 AM | Link to this
I may not have been the most positive blogger re: trading for Peavy, but to compare Dempster to him? Don’t think so. That is true delusion.
By JC from UT
November 10, 2008 10:34 AM | Link to this
DOB: you mentioned Maicer Iztures as a possible trade candidate. In your opinion what would it take to get him? Of all the trade possibilities I personally like this guy the most. He has the winning attitude from Anahiem. Also would FW really consider extending an offer to Orlando Cabrera? Of all the FA’s he would be best, but cost alot of money. Who would cammand more $ Cabrera or Furcal?
By Don't Trade Franceour, Sheesh
November 10, 2008 10:36 AM | Link to this
wildbird…..yeeesss!!
By jj
November 10, 2008 10:39 AM | Link to this
Woah Nelly, Love the name- When I was little boy (1950) Dad had a mule we would ride and it was always Woah Nelly..that sucker wouldn”t stop. Sorry about that. Agree with your* Frickin’ Francoeur*
Please go ahead and get the trade done. Everyone should know that Wren is not stupid. He is not going to trade a SS for Jake if he don’t have a plan to fill SS with someone that can get the job done. Give the man a little credit , thats his job. I know we all like to play GM but have a little faith in FW.
DOB Love to read about your trips. Always wanted to do that but could never get away, so your stories fill the void. Thanks Man.
By Dan
November 10, 2008 10:41 AM | Link to this
Lopez is pretty bad defensive SS. The Reds gave up on him b/c of his defense. Then, he went to St. Louis who moved him to second base.
By ncscoots
November 10, 2008 10:45 AM | Link to this
Salty, Leach works for me. I don’t know who else might be attractive, or who might be getting a whisper in the ear, though. Just have to wait and see.
Right now, I’m just gearing up to watch Booker put Hansbrough in the whirlpool a couple of times this year, LOL.
By DAP
November 10, 2008 10:51 AM | Link to this
the japaneese SS i linked to above looks like he could be pretty good. pretty good power, looks like about an .800 OPS guy. the defense looks ok. only 59 errors at short stop in 838 pro games. tomohiro nioka is his name. i wonder if wren is interested in bringing in a couple of japaneese guys to help out.
By Tomas
November 10, 2008 10:53 AM | Link to this
The Padres should just trade him. Obviously the Braves are not giving up Hanson no matter what, and that is obviously what the padres want. That’s why Peavy’s agent who is a friend of kevin towers, was probably trying to do, when he complained about the braves including Escobar in the deal.
Anyway unless the Cubs, include Mike Fontenot, or Jeff Samardzija.
By ncscoots
November 10, 2008 10:55 AM | Link to this
But hes not an elite ss, hes not this amazing talent we will rue trading away. He barely hits for any power and can easyly be replacable.
Serge, perhaps you might enlighten us as to the “easily replaceble” part. As in, give us a name. As in, a name that was in the +20 range. As in, a name that won’t hamstring the available budget for other needs. As in…
Oh, who am I kidding? I’m pretty sure that part wasn’t covered in “Baseball For Dummies”.
If Escobar is part of the Peavy deal, I’m sure Wren has a plan to fill the SS vacancy. But spare me the delusional claptrap that Escobar is just a spare part that you can pick up at Pep Boys.
By Lew
November 10, 2008 11:01 AM | Link to this
Wildbird-Not all of us are ready to dump Francoeur. He had a bad season, but he identified the problem (caused only by trying to improve his performance) and is making some pretty good strides (from all reports and interviews) to remedy the situation. I’m expecting a BIG comeback season. Lord Knows the Braves need it as much as Frenchy does.
By Tomas
November 10, 2008 11:11 AM | Link to this
What about trading for Jack Wilson, when we trade Yunel? The guy is a very good fielder, and has a career average of 270, not to mention he is very cheap to get, and to pay(7 million). Acording to Mark Bowman of mlb.com, he is on the block. He was on the DL for the first time this year, but no hamstring, shoulder, or back injuries, so he should be perfectly fine by the start of 2009.
I think a Todd Redmond or Jojo Reyes for Jack Wilson may be enough.
By Threadkiller
November 10, 2008 11:12 AM | Link to this
If we Escobar, you will see Renteria back! Bobby loves the guy! I would not be surprised if Renteria has already been contacted.
By DAP
November 10, 2008 11:14 AM | Link to this
scoots there may not be SS in the system as good as escobar…but thats a high mark.
diory hernandez could be ok. he was in AA this past year, and brandon hicks looks like hes gonna be pretty good. maybe in the JJ Hardy mold.
By Trey06
November 10, 2008 11:21 AM | Link to this
DOB, I’m in Arizona and have seen Tommy Hanson pitch twice. Both times I knew in advance that he’d be starting thanks to your blogs. Since you’re here in the Valley of the Sun, do you know when he is starting again? My guess is Tuesday but I thought I’d double check with you. I have the day off of work and would love a chance to see him pitch one more time in the AZ Fall League. Thanks!
By ray
November 10, 2008 11:24 AM | Link to this
(1) You are way over hypeing Morton. His minor league Career ERA is 4.53. His stuff is not that good.
(2)The Padres have Cedric Hunter who is better than Hernandez and is younger.They both played in the same level High A.
By Serge
November 10, 2008 11:29 AM | Link to this
We replaced Furcal with Renteria, we replaced Rent with Escobar. We can replace Escobar with someone else. Sorry Scoot. He aint this elite level guy some people here see him as.
By Rufio
November 10, 2008 11:31 AM | Link to this
I’m gonna take one for the team, and I will play SS next year for the braves. I realize that I will only be filling in as a stop gap for a year. Therefore I will accept the league minimum. I played a little in High School, so I will obviously be no liability in the field. I have been hitting off a tee for the past week in anticipation of a call from FW.
If it softens the blow of losing Escobar, I’m willing to do it.
Lets Bring in the Peave!
By richbrave
November 10, 2008 11:36 AM | Link to this
ray:
Seen his stuff first hand. He’s got the goods. Don’t look at his past. Not aggressive enough. Confidence problem. Nice young man. Very level-headed. If he ever figures out he’s the real deal, look out MLB.
By Steve from OH
November 10, 2008 11:39 AM | Link to this
Serge, there’s no doubt that we will replace Esco with someone, but they won’t be nearly as good as Esco, and certainly not with the upside. It is almost inevitable that we’re going to be downgrading at SS while we add an ace. I’d rather have an ace than a SS, but don’t act like we can just go out and get a top-notch SS, becuase we can’t. Orlando Cabrera wants 3yrs/30MM. JJ Hardy will be expensive to trade for, and really is just about average. Face it, we’re probably going to be picking up an all-glove no bat SS, or just inserting Lillbridge. As long as we get a good OF, I’m ok with that.
By Buffalo NY Braves Fan
November 10, 2008 11:40 AM | Link to this
Serge,
They replaced Furcal because they couldn’t afford him when he became a FA. They let Renteria go for Escobar BECAUSE Escobar is pretty much the same offensive player, better defensively, and cheaper.
Care to play another game?
By Lew
November 10, 2008 11:46 AM | Link to this
Serge-You’re certainly welcome to your opinion, but I’m not so sure it’s shared by a lot of bloggers , The Braves or The Padres.
By Kentavo
November 10, 2008 11:48 AM | Link to this
Nobody thought we’d replace Furcal with Renteria, did they?
By ncscoots
November 10, 2008 11:48 AM | Link to this
DAP, everything I’ve seen of Diory Hernandez says “organizational guy”, his blistering start in the Dominican notwithstanding. As for Hicks, he hits the ball hard when he makes contact, but “strike zone” hasn’t worked its way into his dictionary, and he hasn’t shown enough plate discipline yet to overcome his low contact rate. Still young, and I guess he could be a comer, but his game has some tough holes to fill.
By Train Wreck Bystander
November 10, 2008 12:03 PM | Link to this
On the TV front:
At the first of November, FS South split off two regional networks: FS Tennessee and FS Carolinas.
Some details are here.
This could be especially bad news for Tennesseans, as we are in three different teams’ territories: Cardinals, Reds and Braves.
And I thought last year was bad.
By 18 Wheels of Love
November 10, 2008 12:04 PM | Link to this
Trade:
Escobar/Gorkys/Morton/Boyer for PEAVY
Trade JoJo/Flowers for JJ HARDY
Trade KJ/Prospect for JERMAINE DYE
Sign AJ BURNETT
Lineup:
Shafer JJ Hardy Chipper Dye McCann Frenchy Kotchman Prado
Rotation:
Peavy Burnett Jurrjens Hampton Campillo/Hanson
I know this breaks the rule of trading both of your middle infielders but we end up with a pretty potent lineup and an even better staff.
By chuckw/deadjournalist
November 10, 2008 12:05 PM | Link to this
I’m not sure if someone has posted about this, but I am interested to know if the Braves have made any subtle philosophical changes in major league talent evaluation since the illegal substance testing became a reality.
The question is not about the testing itself, but about how the game is beginning to evolve to the point where speed and ABC baseball (get ‘em on, get ‘em over, get ‘em in) is on an almost equal footing with sitting around waiting for a three-run home run. While the void in LF was huge last year, if a slugger isn’t available at the right price/fit would the Braves be open to something like Randy Winn (if the Giants would move him)?
While Winn isn’t 25 HR guy, he would hit around .300, hit 35 2Bs, and could steal 20+ bases. He could hit lead-off or anywhere in the top of the line-up. He’d also, based on history, be a guy you could pencil in the line-up 150 times a year.
I’ll be honest here, I’d rather have Winn and Ryan Ludwick. Sure, if Ludwick had produced at a level similar to last year for three years, he’d be a no brainer. But I, personally, would rather have a guy who had a history of being in the line-up and performing constantly versus a guy who caught lightning in a bucket last year.
I’m not devaluing the Braves lack of power, but as much as they missed having a big bopper in the middle of the line-up, they also missed having a number of guys that could take their position 150 times a year.
By DAP
November 10, 2008 12:06 PM | Link to this
scoots yeah, hicks K’s alot, but has good power, and plays good defense…i said like JJ Hardy before…maybe a little bit. maybe a bit like kalil greene?
either way, hes just going into his 3rd year, and could be pretty good, based on what he has shown so far. even though he strikes out a ton, he still has a respectable .333 OBP for 2008. not a leadoff hitter, or anything but for a good glove SS? thats pretty good.
By Original Jon
November 10, 2008 12:09 PM | Link to this
I think that if we are going to trade for a SS, we should trade for J.J. Hardy of the Brewers. Heard he may be on the block and he hit .283 with 24 HR’s and 74 RBI’s, his Fielding Percentage was decent at .970.
By DAP
November 10, 2008 12:11 PM | Link to this
18 wheels of love that actually looks pretty good for 2009. what sucks is that things arent that easy. i wish they were.
it will be hard to fill every need the way we’d like and still follow wren’s “wont trade both middle infielders” rule.
By Dadgum
November 10, 2008 12:13 PM | Link to this
With open season for free agents beginning at 12:01AM Friday, the Braves will obviously be all over Lowe (among others) and some guy named Furcal. The Braves and agents opened dialogue weeks ago.
That being said all the pieces seem to be on the table in the much sought after (and awaited) Peavy trade. According to most sources we are giving up Escobar, Gorkys Hernandez, and Morton. A 4th player if we get more than Peavy. Perhaps we get Greene and deal him to another team for prospects. I assume the Braves want this deal to get done prior to Friday so they can get on with the free agency acquisitions.
Rock on………..
By Original Jon
November 10, 2008 12:14 PM | Link to this
18 Wheels Not sure why the Padres would want Boyer in the deal for Peavy, more than likely they wont. Also, you dont add Flowers in a deal for JJ Hardy. Rather have a younger outfielder than Jermaine Dye
Also, I think Prado would be able to fill Johnson’s shoes rather nicely, so trading him wouldnt be a huge concern.
By N8
November 10, 2008 12:19 PM | Link to this
Steve from OH
“Serge, there’s no doubt that we will replace Esco with someone, but they won’t be nearly as good as Esco, and certainly not with the upside. It is almost inevitable that we’re going to be downgrading at SS while we add an ace. I’d rather have an ace than a SS, but don’t act like we can just go out and get a top-notch SS, becuase we can’t.”
Good points all the way across the board.
A) More than likely who we get to replace Yunel will NOT be as good as him (defensively), and certainly won’t have the “upside”. Meaning we will more than likely be downgrading at SS.
B) I’m with you. I’d rather have the Ace. I’ve stated it many times, and I stand by it. Certainly, Yunel doesn’t have as much “upside” as A-Rod did when he signed with the Rangers. Well, we all saw what happened to them without an Ace (or any real pitching for that matter). The ACE wins out 7 days a week and twice on Sunday.
Or is there anybody out there that would have taken Chipper over Greg Maddux, had we been forced to choose for the better part of the 90’s? It’s a no-brainer.
But if Wren can somehow keep Yunel on the team, good for him, and more importantly, good for us. But all things considered being “equal” if Peavy is healthy (and remains healthy over the remainder of the contract), he will provide more “value” to the Braves than Yunel’s “upside” will EVER provide over the next 4-5 years.
I guess one could argue both sides. Yunels defense would certainly make any pitching staff “better” (or the results, anyhow) as the team’s SS. But the affect that Peavy would have on the staff just might be more of an impact.
When a staff has a STOPPER, it takes pressure off of the others. Or do you guys think that JJJ enjoyed being a rookie “stopper”?
Having said all of that, I might still lean towards Burnnett, Lowe or Dempster and keeping Escobar.
Like we’ve all been speculating and arguing over the past few weeks, the real question is what combination of 25 players does Wren believe is the safest bet, not only for this year, but the future?
We’ll find out soon enough, I guess.
By Erik
November 10, 2008 12:19 PM | Link to this
DOB
At first I thought the Furcal talk was both outlandish and dumb. However the idea is starting to grow on me a little. Furcal provides great defense, a legit leadoff hitter and a threat on the base path. He also is familiar with the organizaion and it’s players. You have to figure it would take around 4 yrs- 55 to 60 Mill after the bidding war that will take place. There are question marks with his back and his price demands fail to show that so there is definitely risk of a bad contract. If we spend 10 on Peavy and another 30 on Furcal, and another FA(most likely a Starter Lowe, Dempster, Garland) it would mean that we would most likely have to pursue a trade with another club to fill a hole cheaply. I would imagine that hole would be LF considering the Braves aren’t particularly pleased with the LF FA market.
SO DOB my question is this. Is it possible that we sign Furcal or just wishful fan banter? If we were to sign Furcal would KJ still be off the market? Since Furcal has a history with the club, they are familiar with his abilities, club house persona, and consequently have more accurate expectations from him. Would this open the door for a KJ+prospect for Ludwick swap?
We would fill our starting pitcher need through trade(Peavy) and around a 15 mill for a FA starter
We would fill SS with a Furcal signing for around 13-15 Mill
We would trade for a LF option.
The reason I really have changes my opinion on the Furcal scenario is that it would give us a very similar setup to the World Champion Phillies.
Furcal is very similar to Rolliins(Not quite as a much power
Utley compares to Chipper(again not quite as much power)
Howard compares to Ludwick(at least based off of Ludiwck’s one year)/ This is alittle stretch because it assumes that Ludwick can duplicate last year’s success. Also Howard had 10 more HRs/ But Ludwicks BA was 40 points higher.
We would have a better rotation than the phils as well to make up for a lighter offense.
What do you think?
By Original Jon
November 10, 2008 12:20 PM | Link to this
Also, I have read that Burnett really wants to play for the Yankees and Lowe with Boston. I think the only way we can get one of them is if we totally blow them out of the water with an offer they cannot refuse, which I honestly believe is going to be hard to do. We dont have the funds to do that, because all Boston or New York is going to have to do is make them an offer slightly better than ours and they will sign with them.
My main concern, I guess, is what if we dont get Peavy, and we cannot land a Lowe, Dempster or Burnett, what then?
By 18 Wheels of Love
November 10, 2008 12:31 PM | Link to this
Original Jon:
I believe I remember Towers saying he wanted a middle-relief guy in the package for Peavy. I could be wrong.
I just think it’s possible we deal both KJ and Escobar this offseason - IF we get Peavy. If we don’t get Peavy then I imagine we’ll keep one of them.
By DAP
November 10, 2008 12:32 PM | Link to this
do you guys think that JJJ enjoyed being a rookie “stopper”?
i think he did, actually. but that doesnt take away from the good point you made.
on a side note…signing furcal is for$12-15mil is just a bad idea. a terrible idea. there is no way the braves would do it. if furcal was in the $6-8mil range, than maybe.
By Shaun
November 10, 2008 12:38 PM | Link to this
Or is there anybody out there that would have taken Chipper over Greg Maddux, had we been forced to choose for the better part of the 90’s? It’s a no-brainer.
I don’t think it’s a no-brainer. I think Chipper was worth more in terms of contributions to his team because he was a HOF everyday player. But a pitcher like Maddux is probably more rare. You’d probably got more wins with Chipper but Maddux was harder to replace.
By KC
November 10, 2008 12:42 PM | Link to this
DOB: What do make of these reports that Peavy is supposedly concerned about the Braves ability to compete in the east?
It seems to me that those fears should be easily dispelled with a little more information about the direction of this franchise.
The Braves need TWO top-end starters, and a slugger… but they most definitely have the resources, both in terms of money and talent, to acquire those pieces. From what we hear, they are aggressively pursuing those pieces, and are more likely than not to get them.
Additionally, the Braves (again… from what I hear) must be in the top 5-10 organizations in baseball in terms of minor league talent, some of which appears ready or is nearly ready to impact the big club.
And while Hudson won’t be able to help this team much, if at all, this year… he’ll should be healthy and back in the fold next year. If the Braves get Peavy and another top-end starter to go with Jurrjens, Hudson, and maybe a guy like Hanson NEXT year… HOTdamn! What a rotation that could be.
Anyway, if Peavy’s concerns about Atlanta’s competitiveness were a hangup here… is there any chance that Towers allows Wren, BC, and co. to call Peavy and convince him otherwise?
By Dadgum
November 10, 2008 12:44 PM | Link to this
When, or if, we get the Peavy thing done free agents will want to follow. Pieces will fall into place. Good pieces.
Agree with Erik on Furcal. He is most likely the Braves first target at SS and will gamble that his back will be good to go. Braves never wanted him to go in the first place but didn’t have the money then to keep him. They do now that Liberty has opened up the purse. Furcal is a perfect fit for the Braves and when/if we get Peavy I expect that Furcal will be one of those pieces that will fall into place and perhaps cheaper than many here might think. This of course is if he doesn’t sign with the Dodgers prior to Friday.
Rock on…..
By AZBravoFan
November 10, 2008 12:49 PM | Link to this
DOB: We’ve all been getting caught up in this Peavy thing. Any word on the contract offer to the “Taz” from Japan?
By Corey
November 10, 2008 12:58 PM | Link to this
Unless Kevin Towers is crazy (and he may be), Peavy should soon be a Brave. The Cubs offer pales in comparison to the Braves’. And, I don’t think Towers will send him to a division rival Dodgers team.
Then, we will need a shortstop. Bring back Furcal!!! He’s a true leadoff hitter with much needed speed.
As for an outfielder, I like the idea of a Magglio Ordonez trade with the Tigers picking up some of the salary.
And, to complete the offseason, sign A.J. Burnett.
How much better would the Braves be with Furcal at leadoff, Ordonez at clean-up & Peavy and Burnett heading up the rotation in front of Jurrjens?
Playoff better.
By BB FAN
November 10, 2008 1:05 PM | Link to this
I really think the Braves would be overpaying for Peavy if they give up Escobar, Schafer and Morton or even Escobar, Gorkys and JoJo. I think it’s too much if any of those three together is included.
I believe Wren is underestimating his upper hand…SD needs to trade Peavy, so I would say Escobar OR Schafer and Morton OR JoJo.
The only reason I believe it’s too much to include three of those guys is that Peavy has too many injury concerns. He has only made 31 or more starts 3 times in his career. Even Ben Sheets has made 31 or more starts 4 times in his career and they both started in 2001. I just don’t see the difference between the two. And I bet we would not even consider trading as much for Sheets.
I believe two of those guys is a fair trade for Peavy. The Braves would be taking on a minimum of $63 Million in salary and the injury risk with Peavy who has always battled injuries including the dreaded elbow/forearm soreness just last year.
Giving up too much talent can really come back to bite a team. The Mets “genius” GM Omar Minaya gave up Lee Stevens, Cliff Lee, Grady Sizemore and Brandon Phillips for Bartolo Colon when he was the GM of the Expos. Granted, Colon was for only the rest of the season, and the Braves would get Peavy for 4 or 5 years for $63-84 million. But would Colon have been worth those all those players even if he was with the Expos for 4 more years? No.
I just fear Peavy will be injured too much of the next 4 years while Escobar becomes a Gold Glove, .300, 15-25 HR, .400 OBP guy, Schafer a Gold Glove, .285, 20 HR, 25 SB, .375 guy and Morton a 11-14 win a year guy the Braves need.
If Wren wants a very good number 1 starter that’s an injury risk, just go out and sign Ben Sheets for 4 years, $63 million. I bet he won’t get that offer from another team.
By Michael
November 10, 2008 1:15 PM | Link to this
Trade - Peavy
Sign - Burnett, Ohman, Smoltz
resign (after ‘09) - Soriano, Gonzalez, Smoltz
Pitching staff in 2010…
Peavy Burnett Hudson Jurrjens Hanson
CL Smoltz Soriano Gonzalez Moylan Ohman Bennett Morton/Medlen/Marek/Campillo
That should make some of you cream in your pants even if Smoltz retires.
By Don't Trade Franceour, Sheesh
November 10, 2008 1:19 PM | Link to this
Hmmm…very compelling argument BB Fan.
By Braveheart
November 10, 2008 1:19 PM | Link to this
Or is there anybody out there that would have taken Chipper over Greg Maddux, had we been forced to choose for the better part of the 90’s? It’s a no-brainer.
Kind of misses the point, First of all, Chipper’s salary allowed the Braves the luxury of Maddux and quite a few others. Chipper made about half of what Maddux did from 1993 through 2003. 10 made about $52.5 million. 31 made about $103 million during those 11 seasons.
Believe it or not, 10 was every bit as good as 31 overall in creating run differential during those 11 seasons. 10 was worth 404 runs better than average and 584 runs better than replacement. 31 was worth 351 runs better than average and 603 runs better than replacement.
Knowing that the actual run revenue created by the two of them was almost idential during those 11 seasons, do you still think it’s a no-brainer although one made twice what the other made?
But since you said the 1990s, 31 made $51 million as a Brave in the 1990s.. 10 made $9.5 million in the 1990s. Was 31 five times as good as 10 from 1993 through 1999? No. Only about 1.5 times as good. 31 created about 450 runs above replacement and 270 runs above average. 10, on the other hand, created about 200 runs better than average and 300 runs better than replacement.
I’d hate to miss out on the artistic beauty of those Maddux years but 10 vs. 31 from 1993 through 199 could hardly be considered a no-brainer. 31 was about 1.5 times more valuable but cost about 5 times as much.
By Nate
November 10, 2008 1:20 PM | Link to this
Before the Braves can sing any of these free agent pitchers everyone is talking about you have to assess if any of them have any interest in coming to Atlanta. You can’t just say well go sign Burnett, or CC, or Dempster. The Braves aren’t the only team looking for pitching, and the Braves aren’t the only team with some money to spend. The Braves still can’t really afford to get in a bidding war with the New York teams, or the Cubs, or SoCal teams. Plus, with these guys its rarely about the money alone. These guys want to play for competitive teams, and many have preferences about area of the county they would prefer to play in, teammates, managers, etc.
The interest has to be mutual, and I haven’t seen anything where any of the top-tier free agent pitchers says they are interested in playing in Atlanta.
That’s partly why this Peavy trade is so important to the Braves. Its the one real shot they have at acquiring a legitimate ace this offseason.
By Tomas
November 10, 2008 1:20 PM | Link to this
Why hasn’t it happened yet? Towers really thinks he is going to get more. He is getting a very good shortstop, a very talented CF, and two good pitchers. Come on pull the trigger.
By chris
November 10, 2008 1:25 PM | Link to this
I believe our FA targets, if we get Peavy, will be Furcal, we will make hard runs at Dempster and Burnett but end up with Sheets(which when healthy makes him just as formidable as Sabathia or any upper tier pithcer. That dude always have 10+ K’s vs us…crazy). We may even end up with Olsen as well. I know Wren said he isn’t going after 3 pitchers but an all RH’d rotation is a recipe for disaster. Then we will look to acquire Ludwick, now that the Holliday talks are dead, supposedly. I think a Lillibridge, Prado and Infante can handle the 2B duties, and if they can’t make a run at Phillips by the trading deadline. My 2 cents
By justdoit
November 10, 2008 1:29 PM | Link to this
sounds good corey - if they had 60m to spend…
By chris
November 10, 2008 1:39 PM | Link to this
you are very right about that Nate. Acquiring Peavy could have the windfall effect the Braves need to get FAs interested in being here. Another thing is the we have to stay as healthy as possible.
By rotty
November 10, 2008 1:40 PM | Link to this
Wynn would be a fall back in the OF after many others were missed or passed over.
In no particular order: Dunn, Bradley, Burrell, Dye, Ludwick would be other options to consider before Wynn.
By N8
November 10, 2008 1:45 PM | Link to this
Braveheart
I’ll have to go back and check, but I don’t think I brought money into the conversation (today anyhow).
Let me put it into the easiest possible question, in which there HAS TO BE a clear cut answer/opinion.
If you were the GM of the Braves (or any team), and were starting from scratch (say like an expansion team), and could chose one player. I’ll use Chipper and Maddux, because it hits home a bit, with guys we are familiar with.
Who would your choose? The ALL WORLD pitcher, who clearly is at the top of his game (clearly one of the best in the game), or the slick fielding, gap hitting (with power to develop at a later date), SS??
Take the cash out of the equation. Because even right now, the money isn’t really an issue, with a 40 million dollar surplus and plenty of free agents and trades to ponder.
The question at hand, is in 1993, knowing what you know about each player (yes, using hindsight - even though we don’t know what the future holds for Escobar), would you have traded the rights to Chipper Jones for 5 years of Greg Maddux?
And to compare a young Yunel to Chipper is a stretch… at best. But comparing what Peavy might offer the Braves in 5 years, to what what Maddux did in his first 5 years, isn’t that far of a stretch (if he’s healthy).
I’d make that move 250 times out of 200. But I like pitching (and I don’t think Escobar’s ceiling is as high as some do).
For the record, nice work on the salaries. I’m sure it took some digging. But it wasn’t neccesary. :-)
By bwsc
November 10, 2008 1:50 PM | Link to this
I think that if we are going to trade for a SS, we should trade for J.J. Hardy of the Brewers. Heard he may be on the block and he hit .283 with 24 HR’s and 74 RBI’s, his Fielding Percentage was decent at .970.
Funny how .970 is considered decent while KJ’s higher fielding percentage is considered by most to be terrible.
By N8
November 10, 2008 1:55 PM | Link to this
Braveheart
I’ll refrain from accusing you of doing your best Shaun impersonation with the Maddux/Chipper comparison.
But the other part of the “equation” you’re ignoring (or not commenting on), is what affect Maddux had on the rest of the pitchers on the staff. Whether it be in his approach, preperation, his helping the young pitchers, his helping the catchers call games, etc…
While Chipper certainly helped the Braves win games (NOT saying he didn’t), and I certainly think his defense is well above average, (I stated recently, that in my lifetime, I have not seen anybody make the bare-handed play coming in on a slow roller or bunt better than Chipper), his defense certainly wasn’t the over-riding factor in our pitching staff being better.
Had he stayed at SS? Maybe. I don’t remember how he was touted as a defensive SS before the injury.
Quite honestly, I think the fact that Bobby as GM was interested in taking Van Poppel as the #1 overall pick, lets you know what the Braves brass thinks about pitching over everyday players (or what they did back then).
Thank god TVP was and idiot. LOL!
I’m just asking the question, in a world where we might not be able to keep both (which appears to be the world we’re living in as Braves fans), is the team better off with Peavy and a lesser than Escobar SS, or with Escobar and a lesser Ace than Peavy?
Perfect world Wren gets Peavy and KEEPS Escobar. Not gonna happen.
Wren’s got a tough choice to make. But I know which one I’d make. Do you?
By ncscoots
November 10, 2008 1:55 PM | Link to this
The question is…about how the game is beginning to evolve to the point where speed and ABC baseball…is on an almost equal footing with sitting around waiting for a three-run home run.
That “equal footing” will occur just as soon as diets revert to being poorer, weight training is outlawed, the mound is raised, and fences are moved back.
And, even if all that were to come to pass, I’d agree with your premise only when players with .330 SLG and 20 bunt singles get 8-figure annuals.
By KC
November 10, 2008 1:57 PM | Link to this
BB FAN: “I really think the Braves would be overpaying for Peavy if they give up Escobar, Schafer and Morton or even Escobar, Gorkys and JoJo. I think it’s too much if any of those three together is included.”
I understand your position, and you bring up a valid point. However, I disagree, and here’s why.
First of all, we have to consider how good Jake Peavy is. He is one of the top few starters in baseball over the past couple years in both ERA and strikeouts. He is one of a handful of legitimate dominant aces.
He is only 27 years old, and is under contract for another 4 or 5 years at a salary level FAR below the going rate for an ace.
Considering Peavy’s value, let’s imagine that Peavy is already the Braves ace, and Padres own the rights to the players you mentioned. The Padres are offering to send us Escobar, Gorkys, JoJo, and a mid-level prospect for Jake Peavy.
Would we trade Peavy?
I don’t think we would (or should). We’ve got a young, dominant ace at a bargain prices, who is under contract for several more years.
As attractive as that Escobar, Gorkys, JoJo, etc. package look, there’s just know way I could give up Peavy for that.
The Padres are in a rebuilding mode. We are in a retooling mode, which is why such a trade makes sense for both parties.
By BB FAN
November 10, 2008 1:57 PM | Link to this
In sddition to my previous post at 1:05 PM…Actually after checking, I see that Sheets started in 2001 and Peavy not until 2002. However, Sheets has made 221 starts in 7 + seasons and Peavy has made 199 starts in 6 + seasons. Both can be dominating when healthy and I would probably give Peavy the slight edge in talent but not by much. And both are injury concerns.
I still think if the Braves are going to give up that much talent, it should be for a work horse like CC Sabathia. Obviously, I know CC is a free agent and too expensive for the Braves. Peavy is no workhorse.
I really think Towers is playing Wren because the rumored Cubs offer is no where close to the talent the Braves are rumored to have offered. And I have not even heard any other rumored offers from Dodgers or Yankees. I guess I can’t blame him, he needs to try to get as much as possible but it sounds like Wren is falling for it if the rumored offer of Escobar, Schafer/Gorkys and Morton/JoJo is true.
By Corey
November 10, 2008 2:03 PM | Link to this
BB FAN First of all, with Sheets being the best FA pitcher not named CC, he will get more than 16 mil per.
Contracts aside, look at the numbers. Peavy is 27, Sheets is 30. Over the last 5 years, Peavy has averaged 30 GS / 193.5 IP / 202 K / 14 W / 9L / 2.95 ERA. Over the same time, Sheets has averaged 26 GS / 167.7 IP / 157 K / 11 W / 9 L / 3.24 ERA.
Even if we have to pick up that 5th year on Peavy’s contract, it still averages out to be under 17 mil per. I expect Sheets to get at least that. I think Peavy’s value is more comparable to that of CC’s, who is likely to get 23+ mil per.
By Serge
November 10, 2008 2:05 PM | Link to this
“Serge, there’s no doubt that we will replace Esco with someone, but they won’t be nearly as good as Esco, and certainly not with the upside. It is almost inevitable that we’re going to be downgrading at SS while we add an ace. I’d rather have an ace than a SS, but don’t act like we can just go out and get a top-notch SS, becuase we can’t. Orlando Cabrera wants 3yrs/30MM. JJ Hardy will be expensive to trade for, and really is just about average. Face it, we’re probably going to be picking up an all-glove no bat SS, or just inserting Lillbridge. As long as we get a good OF, I’m ok with that.”
Ok. Let me get this straight. Yunel is a good hitter with “upside” but JJ Hardy is “just about average”. JJ Hardy is a much better hitter for starters, and seccondly i just dont see this “upside”. He never hit for power in the minors. And we saw the real Escobar this year. Mostly a punch and judy high average low slugging guy. This is the guy with upside? and somehow JJ Hardy is the average guy?
I really really think Yunel Escobar is the most overrated player in Atlanta. No offense to his fans. Nice player, great glove but his bat is simply not at that level, and theres no evidence of this “upside” that you would refuse to aquire Jake Peavy 2007 Cy Young
By My Nelly
November 10, 2008 2:10 PM | Link to this
November 10, 2008 10:39 AM | Link to this
Woah Nelly, Love the name- When I was little boy (1950) Dad had a mule we would ride and it was always Woah Nelly..that sucker wouldn”t stop. Sorry about that. Agree with your Frickin’ Francoeur**
Come on guys, whoa is spelled whoa NOT woah. how can you misspell your own name and still want respect for your knowledge on a blog?
By BB FAN
November 10, 2008 2:11 PM | Link to this
KC,
I understand that Peavy is talented, but he is also injury prone. ANd he is not the horse the Braves really need. The Braves biggest problem was not enough quality innings from the starters. Now, while Peavy will give quality innings, he’s not that workhorse that will give you 235 innings year after year. Chances are very good he will break down too often for the amount of talent Towers wants in return. And just this year, he had elbow or forearm pain. That is a huge red flag when giving up that much talent.
By KC
November 10, 2008 2:13 PM | Link to this
Oops. I meant “just no way”, of course.
If we can get Peavy for Escobar, Gorkys, JoJo, and a mid-level prospect… we should (and probably will) do it in a heartbeat.
Image what our rotation NEXT year could look like…
Peavy, Hudson, Lowe/Burnett/Dempster?, Jurrjens, Hanson.
Wow.
By Another Out By Jack
November 10, 2008 2:17 PM | Link to this
What about trading for Jack Wilson, when we trade Yunel?Tomas
Jack Wilson of the .312 OBP? That Jack Wilson? Why is it that some of you can’t get your minds around the fact that making outs all the time is just about the worst thing that you can do offensively? Let’s not get JW, and say we did if you need him so much
By DHD
November 10, 2008 2:18 PM | Link to this
KC…Hudson is out for next year
By Jersey Gil
November 10, 2008 2:22 PM | Link to this
DOB What is wrong with Diory Hernandez, This Kid is a natural SS, right now in the Dominican Republic Winter League he is playing SS.. 40ab, 340Avg, 12r, 5HR 11 rbi. Did you think we can see this Kid in the Mayor next year? I know he play second in Richmond last year, but what i heard in the Dominican he is a Natural ss.
By Joe
November 10, 2008 2:28 PM | Link to this
heard Padres have press conference at 5:00!!!! do we get him or not?
By Joe
November 10, 2008 2:30 PM | Link to this
A’s get Holliday!
By Voice from the past
November 10, 2008 2:31 PM | Link to this
If we can get Peavy for Escobar, Gorkys, JoJo, and a mid-level prospect… we should (and probably will) do it in a heartbeat.
I hope your heart is beating a little faster than this is getting done.
Anybody know CPR?
By BB FAN
November 10, 2008 2:32 PM | Link to this
Corey,
I can’t compare Peavy with Sabathia. Sabathia is a horse. Peavy is injury prone. 30 starts and 193 innings is less than what the Braves need out their Number 1 starter. They need a guy who will make 33-35 starts and picth 230-240 innings in the Number 1 spot.
I’m not saying trading for Peavy is not a good idea, I’m just saying that giving up 2 or 3 top prospects in addition to Escobar is too much to give up for him. Escobar and any one of the pitching prospects not named Hanson would be more talent than the Cubs are supposedly offering.
Who knows if they are offering anything. That is one of many problems that MLB has. Why can’t owners/GMs from different teams talk about what’s being offered when it comes to contracts or trades? Why is that collusion but Agents, Owners and GMs are allowed to lie about the offers they have received? Boras is the worst offender for agents. I’m not sure which GM is the worst when it comes to making up offers from other teams for players though.
Anyway, back to the subject at hand… I just don’t look at Peavy as a work horse therefore the rumored package of players seems like too much.
By Charles
November 10, 2008 2:32 PM | Link to this
CNNSI is reporting that the Oakland Athletics have acquired Matt Holliday in a trade with the Rockies. No other information was available.
By KC
November 10, 2008 2:32 PM | Link to this
DHD: By “NEXT year”, I meant 2010. I’m already thinking of 2009 as “this” year… though I guess I’m getting a little ahead there.
By KC
November 10, 2008 2:33 PM | Link to this
Joe, where did you hear that?
By cameron
November 10, 2008 2:39 PM | Link to this
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/baseball/mlb/11/10/heyman.holliday/index.html
A’s get Holliday
By cameron
November 10, 2008 2:39 PM | Link to this
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/baseball/mlb/11/10/heyman.holliday/index.html
A’s get Holliday
By Efrim
November 10, 2008 2:40 PM | Link to this
A’s acquire Holliday. Pretty bold move for them, but I like it…..of course we have no idea who went the Rockies way yet.
By cameron
November 10, 2008 2:40 PM | Link to this
And its on MLBTRADERUMORS.com
By RC
November 10, 2008 2:41 PM | Link to this
Wow, Holliday to the A’s???? Can’t say I understand that move at all, unless the A’s think they are going to make a serious play this year and then take draft picks….or if they think they can sell him at the trade deadline to get even better prospects back. Or Jon Heyman could just be wrong.
By KC
November 10, 2008 2:43 PM | Link to this
Voice from the past: “I hope your heart is beating a little faster than this is getting done.”
Ditto.
By Jared
November 10, 2008 2:45 PM | Link to this
WOW! didn’t see the A’s getting Holliday.
Where did the you hear about the Padres news conference at 5:00pm?
By ryan c
November 10, 2008 2:45 PM | Link to this
hudson will not be back until at least august.
the point that most people make about acquiring peavy is that, for the most part, it makes us equivalent, or worse, for the 2009 season. reason being, we lose escobar, and we’re without hudson (who, for the most park, park adjusting, would give us peavy-ish performance). also, we have kotchman at first instead of tex.
then here is the kicker….. we are banking that jeff francoeur will bounce back from….”worst player in the league” status to just “below average” status.
losing escobar will be such a sore spot after the 2009 season, when we see our beloved chipper sign with a contender and we have to go sign a free agent 3rd baseman because we also have no inside options. we cant rely on smoltz, francoeur, hampton, or even chipper (for at least 40 of the the 162 games). peavy gives us 35 starts (if healthy). a quality shortstop, such as escobar, gives us 160.
involving escobar in a trade for peavy basically neglects the reason to acquire peavy. we should basically keep escobar and acquire 2 starters for 15 mil. (which would basically be the equivalent of getting peavy + another started and signing a 10-15 mil./year shortstop such as furcal) we are sacrificing for the future payroll and will have more holes to fill externally for 2010 if this trade happens. in 2010, we will be looking for a shortstop and 3rd baseman if this trade happens. what will we do then?
By Andy K.
November 10, 2008 2:46 PM | Link to this
Guys something is about to go down. DOB has been quiet all day, and the Padres supposively have a press conference at 5:00.
By Bit Failu
November 10, 2008 2:48 PM | Link to this
Thanks for the update. I love to hear any rumors or observations on the Braves. I must admit, the first five paragraphs proved that no matter how hard you try, you are not Hunter S. Thompson. The smell released by Creosote bushes when it rains is the best thing about Arizona. Keep us posted, but stay off the bike
By Charles
November 10, 2008 2:50 PM | Link to this
It seems that DOB has been rather silent this afternoon. Is there something brewing, possibly?
By KC
November 10, 2008 2:52 PM | Link to this
Joe, where did you hear that about a Padres press conference?
By Patrick
November 10, 2008 2:53 PM | Link to this
Jeez, that could set a couple things in motion. Never would have expected Oakland…
By Eric from MO
November 10, 2008 2:54 PM | Link to this
Serge I agree with you. I have never figured out why everyone is that in love with Escobar. He is a decent player. There is a reason why it took so long for him to get to the big leagues. I read a couple bloggers say he could hit 20-25 homers.?????Where did they possibly get that? Thats insane, he is a little guy who has never put any power numbers anywhere. Everyone talks about his speed, but does he fear pitchers when he is on the basepaths? NO!!! He will never steal 30 bases. I promise. Does he take alot of pitches like a Kelly Johnson? No!!! So let me get this straight, everybody is freaking out about losing a player with no power, no stealing ability, cant take pitches and whose defense is average at best? Seriously people, he just isnt that good. He is a decent player. The Braves, as are most organizations, are notorious about over-hyping their own players. Examples Francouer, Marte, Salty and many, many, others.
By texmex
November 10, 2008 2:56 PM | Link to this
Holliday traded to the As
By Patrick
November 10, 2008 2:57 PM | Link to this
Press conference at 5? Says who?
By KC
November 10, 2008 3:03 PM | Link to this
ryan c: If you’re mentioning that (about Hudson) for my benefit… I am aware of that. I was referring to his being back next season (2010), as opposed to this upcoming season.
By 18 Wheels of Love
November 10, 2008 3:03 PM | Link to this
I don’t think I ever recall DOB going underground when a trade is about to happen???
By Anthony
November 10, 2008 3:04 PM | Link to this
Has anyone thought that maybe the Braves should be considering rebuilding as much if not more than the Padres? Your best everyday player is 35. Your two best pitchers are coming off elbow and shoulder surgery. Quick free-agent fixes can easily turn into bad contracts you can never get out of (Pavano, Hampton, Juan Pierre, and the like). AJ Burnett or Ben Sheets could fall into that injury category that made the Pavano/Hampton deals horrible. And while I really like Derek Lowe….he’s 35…. REMEMBER! A player on your roster does not make them a player on the field. BEWARE OF PAYING FOR PAST PERFORMANCE! Those are the worst contracts of all.
By texmex
November 10, 2008 3:05 PM | Link to this
where did you hear about a press conf??
By chris
November 10, 2008 3:08 PM | Link to this
Buster Olney says Hutson Street, Carlos Gonzalez, and Greg Smith are involved
By Braveheart
November 10, 2008 3:08 PM | Link to this
Serge I agree with you. I have never figured out why everyone is that in love with Escobar. He is a decent player. There is a reason why it took so long for him to get to the big leagues
HUH?!?!?!?
8 games in rookie ball.
56 games in A ball.
121 games in AA ball
46 games in AAA ball.
In the majors with 2 years of being drafted.
Oh, yeah, took him forever to get to the majors.
By Voice from the past
November 10, 2008 3:12 PM | Link to this
And while I really like Derek Lowe….he’s 35…
This from the Boston Globe: Over the last seven seasons, Derek Lowe has made between 32 starts and 35 starts a season and averaged 208 innings pitched per season. Over his four years with the Dodgers, each year he gave up fewer earned runs than the year before. His 3.24 ERA this season was his lowest since his 2.58 with the Red Sox in 2002.
By DAP
November 10, 2008 3:15 PM | Link to this
would basically be the equivalent of getting peavy + another started and signing a 10-15 mil./year shortstop such as furcal
ryan c and everyone else….the braves ARE NOT going to sign furcal for $10-15mil!!! no matter what happens this offseason, i PROMISE this will not happen. so stop it.
eric in MO I have never figured out why everyone is that in love with Escobar. He is a decent player. There is a reason why it took so long for him to get to the big leagues
what? he didnt even play in the minors for 3 years. it didnt take him long at all to get to the majors.
escobar is a little guy? eric, c’mon. 6’2” 200lbs isnt little.
also, escobar is not a base stealer, but its easy to look at him play and guess he has 40 double 20 homer potential. he will do it one day.
By Gusher
November 10, 2008 3:16 PM | Link to this
Having said all of that, I might still lean towards Burnnett, Lowe or Dempster and keeping Escobar.N8
then way say all that? It takes you a thousand words to let us know that you don’t know what you want? Hmm. you might want to get some kaopectate for all that verbal diarrhea
By Don't Trade Franceour, Sheesh
November 10, 2008 3:16 PM | Link to this
*The A’s are not acquiring him with the intention of flipping him or even trading him in July. The team is in position to increase its payroll to as much as $80 million, and plans to contend next season.
To that end, the A’s also are targeting free-agent shortstop Rafael Furcal to be their leadoff man. Furcal is drawing interest from about 10 clubs, according to his agent, Paul Kinzer. The acquisition of Holliday could help persuade him that the A’s are serious about competing.* -Ken Rosenthal
Weird.
By Braveheart
November 10, 2008 3:17 PM | Link to this
Does he take alot of pitches like a Kelly Johnson? No!!! So let me get this straight, everybody is freaking out about losing a player with no power, no stealing ability, cant take pitches and whose defense is average at best?
His defense is average at best? Really? Almost every defensive metric ranks him as one of the best defenders in the game, worth +10 to +20 runs better than an average defensive SS ………. and it’s not just stats ….. anyone who watches alot of games could see it ….. evidently, you don’t watch alot of games
By Nuke LaLoosh
November 10, 2008 3:18 PM | Link to this
guys, why wouldn’t the Braves call a news conference if they had just acquired Peavy? I hope it is a Peavy trade announcement, but I wonder why the Padres would have the conference instead of the Braves?? Did the Rangers call it when we got Teixeira? I can’t remember…
By No Press Conf
November 10, 2008 3:19 PM | Link to this
Just someone trying to stir something up. There isn’t anything on the wire about a press conference involving the Padres.
By Nocturnal Owl
November 10, 2008 3:20 PM | Link to this
A’s pulled a trade no one saw coming. Strange move since they never get involved in FA market. Expect the unexpected with Billy Beane!! Maybe they need a featured guy since Eric Chavez gets hurt often. Mr. Beane, could we possibly get Justin Duchscherer?
I’m just hoping this will trigger other aaahem things.
Lew
I never really compared Dempster to Peavy. It’s not even close. I was picturing having yunel still on the team and having people weigh in. I just damn hope this happens soon or move else where.
By Ed Glennon
November 10, 2008 3:20 PM | Link to this
Before this off-season I was thinking the Braves might offer Escobar a McCann type contract. Now I find out they want to trade him. Why not throw in Chipper and McCann and then we could have the worst starting nine in baseball.
By Corey
November 10, 2008 3:21 PM | Link to this
I agree that Escobar has great potential and could be a .300+/15/75 guy for years to come. However, I don’t ever see him being in the upper echelon of SS’s. Some of you guys act like we’d be trading Jose Reyes or Hanley Ramirez. Jake Peavy is, at his best, one of the top 10 if not 5 starting pitchers in all of baseball. He won’t come cheap. I’ll take Jeff Blauser at SS as long as a dominant starter is on the mound. It worked in the 90’s didn’t it?
By Robert
November 10, 2008 3:23 PM | Link to this
I honestly believe that Kelly Johnson is a better play than any player given up in the Haren, Santana, Blanton, Harden deals. I am not a huge KJ fan, but he is a talented player.
The more I hear about Kevin Towers, the more annoyed I become. We should not have to give up Escobar. Towers seems like a bitter child because we will not trade Tommy Hanson. He is angry and trying to “get even with us”.
I would offer Kelly Johnson, Gorkys Hernandez, Jo Jo Reyes and Morton.
Take it or leave it. Morton and Reyes would be their best pitchers after Chris Young. If they would rather have Sean Marshall and Felix Pie, Good for SD. Frank Wren needs to walk away.
By Moby Grape
November 10, 2008 3:24 PM | Link to this
Funny how .970 is considered decent while KJ’s higher fielding percentage is considered by most to be terrible. bwsc
it’s not really funny at all. You can’t compare fielding stats across positions, only within positions.
By KC
November 10, 2008 3:25 PM | Link to this
Anthony: “Has anyone thought that maybe the Braves should be considering rebuilding as much if not more than the Padres?”
Well, I asked myself that question a couple months back, and the answer I cam up with was “no”. The Braves should not launch into a rebuilding mode.
Starting with the rotation: The Braves have one exceptional young starter (Jurrjens), another stud on his way up soon (Hanson), and some other good young arms that could very well materialize into solid big league starters.
Add Peavy and another quality starter to the equation… and you have one helluva rotation. Especially next season (2010), when Hudson should be fully recovered from TJ surgery.
We have a nasty closer in Mike Gonzalez (he wasn’t even 100% this season, and STILL did a helluva job), and another filthy reliever in Peter Moylan, due to return in the first half of the season. If Soriano is healthy, we may have a NastyBoyz type situation at the back of our pen. We also have some good young middle-relief arms.
As for the offense… This lineup is only one big bat away from being a solid offense. And the future is bright with promising hitters, like Heyward and others, coming through the pipeline.
The Braves need 3 BIG pieces here. And if they didn’t have the resources -either in terms of money or talent- to go out and get those pieces… I would say “ok, let’s tear it down and start over”. But they DO have the resources. And adding those 3 pieces WOULD put this team back in contention.
So, unlike the Padres, who have fewer pieces already in place and lesser resources… the Braves are not in a position where they need to rebuild.
By DAP
November 10, 2008 3:26 PM | Link to this
eric in MO i hope that you wish you could take back your post on escobar. it was just wrong on so many points.
By Sum41
November 10, 2008 3:26 PM | Link to this
Hmmm..what Padres Press conference????…i cant seem to find anything on that? ….care to give some type of details, guys?
By FaninFaytown
November 10, 2008 3:27 PM | Link to this
maybe escobar hasn’t put up the power numbers just yet but if you have seen him swing a bat, or watched any games at all.. that guy has some pop and the homers he hits are drilled. The power numbers will come for him whether with atlanta or not
By 22oz
November 10, 2008 3:27 PM | Link to this
DOB has been silent all afternoon because his ride yesterday got him in the mood to audition for Sons of Anarchy.
By Ryan in TN
November 10, 2008 3:29 PM | Link to this
I agree that the Braves need Jake Peavy more than anybody in the MLb, but, at what cost? Do you give up a proven shortstop that his best years are ahead of him, or do you give up a prospect pitcher who carries the same clout as Jojo Reyes did in the minors? I understand that Tommy Hanson’s upside is tremendous, but does he propel the braves to legitimate contender status in the next two seasons? But in my opinion giving up Yunel Escobar, you would be giving up on the future for next year and at the same time, giving up arguably the best shortstop in the NL next to Hanley Ramirez and Jose Reyes. The possible replacements are nowhere near his caliber, most are injury prone or on the downside of their careers. J.J. Hardy would be a good replacement, but what do you have to go give up for him. It would make more sense to give up Hanson, KJ, Schaffer, and a prospect to get Peavy and save your best infielder, which would still solidify the middle infield, give Prado a chance at 2B, and groom the speedy Hernandez for the CF job in 2 years, his speed could be very beneficial, for Esco, CJ10, and B-Mac, hitting behind him. If you are going to attract a few more big name pitchers you are going to have to be good defensively, and have enough talent to last for a few years and giving up Esco would hurt.
By 22oz
November 10, 2008 3:30 PM | Link to this
Good article on McCann dropping weight. I can already hear him saying the ultimate Spring Training cliche’ come February: “I’m in the best shape of my life.” Mark it down.
By Tomas
November 10, 2008 3:31 PM | Link to this
A’s Acquire Matt Holliday.
Another Out By Jack,
A 312OBP this year, and yes in his total career numbers but last year he hit 297, with a 350OBP, and I’m not saying this guy is going to be better than Escobar, I’m just saying he is a better solution than Brent Lillibridge, and wont be hard to get.
Do you really think we can get JJ Hardy. We’d have to trade some valuable prospects like Medlen, Todd Redmond, Brandon Jones, or Jo-jo Reyes. At least two if not 3 of those guys.
Or do you think we should gamble big money for an injury frequent Furcal who will be 31, Or Renteria who cannot play SS anymore because of his limited range.
And you also have to consider we need to get a power hitting outfielder, and the FA outfield market is limited, and demanding. If Pat Burrell would agree to a 3 yr 42 million dollar contract, great, but he wont. Adam Dunn wants a huge contract. Manny Ramirez forget about it. Raul Ibañez the guy is overrated and 37, want at least 13 million per year. Bobby Abreu wants at least 16 per year.
I got one thing clear the braves are not going to spend more than 14 million per year on an outfielder, and wont give more than 3 yrs.
So my guess is we should trade for an outfielder like Aubrey Huff, Ryan Ludwick. Magglio Ordoñez is too expensive. And you need to keep in mind we also need another sp, that would require at least 15 million per year.
By Andy K.
November 10, 2008 3:31 PM | Link to this
I’m just going on what Joe said cuz he is usually a reliable guy. I was putting two and two together….so ask Joe not me…
By Patrick
November 10, 2008 3:32 PM | Link to this
Damn, I wish I could find out soon what’s going on. DOB! Check in before 4! Thanks! ;)
By Braveheart
November 10, 2008 3:34 PM | Link to this
Does he take alot of pitches like a Kelly Johnson? No!!! So let me get this straight, everybody is freaking out about losing a player with no power, no stealing ability, cant take pitches and whose defense is average at best?
Since he arrived in early June 2007, Escobar has the fifth highest average, the second highest on base percentage and the sixth highest ops for all MLB SS. And this year, he was ranked the second best defensive SS in the majors by those who study every play of every game in painstaking detail. He was rated +20 plays better than average.
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 10, 2008 3:37 PM | Link to this
18 Wheels I don’t think I ever recall DOB going underground when a trade is about to happen?
Maybe he’s not here because there’s nothing to report…or maybe there’s gonna be…This is nerve-racking!
But, if you all are bored with Peavy talk, Ms. Rogers has a very good article up on the Braves page. Y’all should give it a read…
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 10, 2008 3:39 PM | Link to this
22oz—
Consider it marked. : )
By 18 Wheels of Love
November 10, 2008 3:39 PM | Link to this
I am amending my trade proposals to reflect the acquisition of Holliday by the A’s, which I feel might rejuvenate the KJ for Ludwick talks.
Trade:
Escobar/Gorkys/Morton/Boyer for PEAVY
Trade JoJo/Flowers for JJ HARDY
Trade KJ/ for RYAN LUDWICK or JERMAINE DYE
Sign AJ BURNETT
Lineup:
Shafer JJ Hardy Chipper Ludwick (or Dye) McCann Frenchy Kotchman Prado
Rotation:
Peavy Burnett Jurrjens Hampton Campillo/Hanson
And as a bonus, I would entertain a Francoeur for Greinke trade if we could pick up a decent RF’er. I know this will cause some to upchuck their Wheaties, but I fear Francoeur might be akin to Ron Kittle.
By John Tarleton
November 10, 2008 3:40 PM | Link to this
you can’t hoard prosepects or players. J.P. is 1 of the best pitchers in the game. I love Yunel, but SS’s aren’t hard to find…Aces are. Yunel the worst, or second worse, SS in the division. J.P. gives you a chance to win every 5th game for the next 5 years. Yunel doesn’t…nor do Gorky (which none of us have seen play,) JoJo is OK at best, Shafer - who cares…CFers are easy to find too.
By David O'Brien
November 10, 2008 3:40 PM | Link to this
Holliday to the A’s, huh? I hadn’t even seen them connected to him, though I hadn’t checked in last day or two….
By Andy K.
November 10, 2008 3:41 PM | Link to this
If and when we get Peavy, Wren has to keep going. We’ll still need a SS, Right-Handed LF, another starter (Taz won’t be ready, if he signs) plus he ahs to get to work on re-signing Ohman, Hampton, Norton, etc.
By No Press Conf
November 10, 2008 3:41 PM | Link to this
“Joe is usually a reliable guy?”
A guy named, just “Joe” on a blog? Not Joe The Bat or Glue Huffin Joe or Braves Joe or Joe something? Just Joe?
Well I’ll be sure to look for the old reliable “Joe” to show up.
By Patrick
November 10, 2008 3:45 PM | Link to this
I just hurled my Breakfast of Champions reading about Grienke.
By Deep Throat
November 10, 2008 3:48 PM | Link to this
Boyer? Reyes and Flowers for Hardy (do the Brewers get a say in this)? Delusion reigns supreme.
By Joe the Plumber
November 10, 2008 3:48 PM | Link to this
Maybe it was me that said there was a Press Conference….
By Don't Trade Franceour, Sheesh
November 10, 2008 3:48 PM | Link to this
18 Wheels of Love…I have sort of been under the impression that Tyler Flowers could be the franchise 1B…Probably don’t want to trade him from J.J. Hardy.
By David O'Brien
November 10, 2008 3:50 PM | Link to this
Folks, we had something done here today by Paul Bunyon, er, Tyler Flowers today that rivaled the batting-practice bomb Flowers hit last spring at Port St. Lucie. This one today cleared the entire 50-foot batters eye in center field during batting practice before this Mesa-Peoria Javelinas game at HoHoKam Park (spring training home of the Cubs).
Considering the fence is 410 feet away, you can imagine how long a ball might travel to clear a 50 foot wall that far away.
And you also know you’ve made a good impression with folks this spring when Ryne Sandberg, a Solar Sox coach, calls you a “total package.” That’s what he called Flowers when I asked Ryno about him before today’s game. He said all the pitchers love throwing to him, that he’s solid behind the plate and only needs to work on his throws (same thing Rocket Wheeler and Flowers himself said), and that he’s a solid, all-around hitter, not just a guy swinging for fences….
By the way, I’m doing a story on Flowers for Wednesday, the day after Carroll’s fine story on McCann runs in our paper. Flowers just hopes to be the guy they turn to if something, God forbid, were to happen to McCann….
Doing a story on Hanson to run on Friday. He’s pitching Wednesday afternoon’s game (2 p.m. start back in Atlanta, noon out here)….
Tomas, I’m sitting with a Detroit writer and he says it’s not a given that the Tigers are going to trade Magglio.
By Nocturnal Owl
November 10, 2008 3:51 PM | Link to this
Lol @No Press Conf,, proud didn’t even have a plummer in there. :)
McFann
Guess that talked about program is working. Consider it marked.lol. He will continue his Perfect SB%. and oh..Two Triples…
By Andy K.
November 10, 2008 3:52 PM | Link to this
Everybody chill out, especially “No Press Conf”…I was just speculating, can we not do that on this blog anymore? Because half of you have the Braves lineup for 2009, 2010, and 2022 posted on here. I was throwing something out there to think about. I’m not even the one who said the Pads had a press conference @ 5, I just included it in my post, and said something’s gotta be going down. And yes, No Press conf, Joe usually is pretty reliable, as he’s always commenting on the blogs, and I haven’t seen him beat around the bush at all. All I was doing was making an observation…maybe I shoulda worded it better, because now y’all up in arms about it…
By nolie
November 10, 2008 3:53 PM | Link to this
He is a decent player. There is a reason why it took so long for him to get to the big leagues. I read a couple bloggers say he could hit 20-25 homers.?????Where did they possibly get that? Thats insane, he is a little guy who has never put any power numbers anywher Eric
While I agree with you that he is not going to hit 20-25 homers, Esco is not a little guy. he is 6’2” and at least 205 pounds. The main reason he doesn’t hit for a lot of homers is his hitting mechanics. He keeps that front shoulder tucked down and hits a lot of line drives. That may change a bit as he makes adjustments, but so far that is the main reason. He is a top 5 defender at short and has a very good OBP for current SSs. He is no big star but he is a solid starting shortstop who certainly ranks in the top 6-8 in the last coupla years. He can be replaced, but unless they are willing to spend a lot of money & or prospects, it will likely be a downgrade. And what sense would it make to trade a bunch of prospects for Hardy? Why not just deal them for Peavy and save Yunel to begin with? I want Peavy, but we can’t kid ourselves that Yunel is all that replaceable
.* The previous message was paid for by the Scoots Campaign To Keep Escobar.* LOL.
By David O'Brien
November 10, 2008 3:54 PM | Link to this
So if Huston Street is part of the Holliday deal, does it mean Joey Devine gets a crack at closer in Oakland?
By ppaddy123
November 10, 2008 3:55 PM | Link to this
To be honest, I almost hope Peavy goes to the Cubs. The cost to the Braves for keeping Escobar is cheap. To trade him for Peavy not only adds to the Braves Payroll, but that position (SS) has to be replaced as well. If the Braves have to sign two players (Peavy and a replacement SS) for $18MM a year on average, why not keep the really good young SS and bring in two FA pitchers (Lowe and Sheets)? The Braves of the 90’s were built around great pitching and adequate offense. Personally, I would move Kelly Johnson back to left and put Martin Prado at second everyday. With Infante, the Braves have a guy that can play any where. There you have it, Sportos, sign Lowe and Sheets. Spend the extra money shoring up the bull pen. Oh, and throw Mike Hampton in the mix.
2009 Lowe/Sheets, Jurrjens, Hampton, Campello, Hanson, Hudson (maybe). It works for me………
By No Press Conf
November 10, 2008 3:55 PM | Link to this
lol @ Joe the Plumber :o)
By ryan c
November 10, 2008 3:56 PM | Link to this
“ryan c and everyone else….the braves ARE NOT going to sign furcal for $10-15mil!!! no matter what happens this offseason, i PROMISE this will not happen. so stop it.” congratulations on getting nothing out of my post. i never said that we would be “signing” furcal. I stated that the point of trading escobar for peavy would be moot when we have to go to the free agent pool to sign a 10 million dollar shortstop (such as furcal).
thanks for encouraging me to stop. next time try to type something intuitive instead of looking for an argument that wasnt there in the first place.
By Nocturnal Owl
November 10, 2008 3:57 PM | Link to this
Deep Throat Na, Flowers too good. Throw in another dud and consider it sold.
Padres need to make up their mind.
By Steve from OH
November 10, 2008 4:00 PM | Link to this
Serge, JJ Hardy’s career line is .270/.329/.426 with a .263 EqA. If that doesn’t scream “average,” then I don’t know what does. Granted, Hardy had a much better season in ‘08 with a .279 EqA, but it certainly isn’t a stretch to call him average or ever so slightly above.
Yunel Escobar, on the other hand, sports a career .303/.373/.420 line with a career .278 EqA, or almost exactly equal to Hardy’s best season. While I will agree that Esco’s bat is a bit overrated (especially his power; I think his SLG will be especially low in Petco next season), so I don’t see how Hardy is the “much better hitter” like you claim. Not that I think that Hardy would be a nice pickup, but he will be expensive (the Brewers aren’t going to just give him to us), and he is not going to provide an overall upgrade over Yunel. He’ll be a good player, but not better than Yunel overall, I think.
And don’t even start about the glove…Esco is arguably the best in the NL, and second-best at worst.
By texmex
November 10, 2008 4:01 PM | Link to this
yea was definitely out of left field that trade.. hopefully something gets done in the next couple of days . i am sure wren would want to get it done before friday
By ppaddy123
November 10, 2008 4:02 PM | Link to this
By the way, I over looked A J Burnett earlier. I would take him with Sheets.(I think Lowe and Burnett will cost too much) Let Peavy walk……to the Cubs…………so they can break his heart and he theirs. FW you gotta spend some money in the pen. Innings 7&8 are where games are won and lost in tight ball games.
By Eric from MO
November 10, 2008 4:02 PM | Link to this
People how old was he when he got drafted? I wasnt speaking about him playing in the minors I speaking of his age when he made it to the majors.
Dap 6-2 200 lbs is little. Especially when you cosider muscle weighs more. 200 lbs is not that much. And what possibly makes you think he going to hit 20 homers, other than he is Brave. That is the only thing you possibly could go on. Cuz we all know Braves and Brave’s fans like to overhype their players.
Braveheart, Yeah is defense is average at best. I can also promise he will never win a gold glove. Remember when Furcal was here and all of you talked about how great of a defensive shortstop he was and how he was the 2nd coming of Ozzie Smith. Well remind me, how many gold gloves has he won. This again another decent player that you want to overhype.
So DAP no I do not want to take back my post.
Corey thanks with your 3:21 post. I like Escobar too but he is not a great shortstop. There is far more better shortstops in baseball.
By Bay Area Steve
November 10, 2008 4:03 PM | Link to this
Nolie,
I can’t get credit for my $5 donation to the cause?
Save Yunel.
Spend the $40 million.
By Robert
November 10, 2008 4:03 PM | Link to this
DOB
Anything about the Padres calling a 5pm press conference
By P-Town Brave
November 10, 2008 4:04 PM | Link to this
Braveheart
Thank you for responding to the argument over Escobar…I’m seriously tired of responding to the idiots that don’t get how valuable Yunel is to our team, or other teams for that matter…
Why else would every other team want him?
Most people are either blind or obviously don’t get that SS and CF are the most important positions in the field…
And whats the talk about a press conference? I haven’t heard anything on any other blog or news report about any of this…?
By KC
November 10, 2008 4:05 PM | Link to this
Judging from that picture on the main AJC Braves page, Mac will be in much better shape this year. He’s definitely lost weight.
By Eric from MO
November 10, 2008 4:09 PM | Link to this
People 6’2 and 200 lbs is not very big. Im 5-10, 200 lbs and if you ask anyone that knows me I am very little. Also mines not all muscle. I do work out a couple times a week but I would hope Esco has a lil more muscle than me and muscle would make him little than me, which means he littler than a already little person.
By David O'Brien
November 10, 2008 4:11 PM | Link to this
Ed Glennon, the Braves don’t “want” to trade Escobar. Not at all. But you don’t acquire an ace pitcher with four years left on his reasonable contract without giving up guys you don’t want to trade. What’s hard to understand about that? The Padres don’t want the guys the Braves would much rather trade. They want Escobar. Actually, they really want Hanson, but Braves flat refuse to trade him. You can’t flat refuse to trade everyone, or you’re not going to fill any needs except with your own players or free agents, which could get quite expensive.
By Robert
November 10, 2008 4:14 PM | Link to this
Can’t trade Yuni
By Andy K.
November 10, 2008 4:14 PM | Link to this
its supposed to be 2011 in my last post, not 2022, but the point still got across
By Truth Tellin' Joe
November 10, 2008 4:14 PM | Link to this
Padres are not having a 5 pm press conference.
By Lyin' Joe
November 10, 2008 4:15 PM | Link to this
Yes they are!
By Truth Tellin' Joe
November 10, 2008 4:15 PM | Link to this
No they are not!
By Braveheart
November 10, 2008 4:15 PM | Link to this
Braveheart, Yeah is defense is average at best.
That’s ignorant.
I can also promise he will never win a gold glove.
Who cares about Gold Gloves? They are meaningless and are, ironically, too often given to the worst defenders in the game like Jeter, Young, McClouth.
By Lyin' Joe
November 10, 2008 4:16 PM | Link to this
Yes they are!
By Eric from MO
November 10, 2008 4:16 PM | Link to this
Ppaddy123 I would agree with you if we could sign Sheets and Lowe for a combined 18 million a year like you say. Problem is both will get at least 16 million a year. Which means it will take 32 million for the both of them not 18.
P-town your right. Escobar is sooo valuable to our team. That is why the Braves have done nothing but win since he has been called up.
By David O'Brien
November 10, 2008 4:17 PM | Link to this
AZBravesFan, Junichi Tazawa wasn’t supposed to make a decision for at least two weeks (it’s been 5 or 6 days). First he was going to get other offers from other teams, and pitch in the Industrial League championship series that starts Nov. 13. He’ll decide after that, most likely.
By Breaking News!
November 10, 2008 4:17 PM | Link to this
Padres to announce at 5:00 PM PT press conference that they have signed Trevor Hoffman.
By MGL
November 10, 2008 4:19 PM | Link to this
DOB - “So if Huston Street is part of the Holliday deal, does it mean Joey Devine gets a crack at closer in Oakland?”
Did you have to bring that up, some of the whiners will be blasting that trade again for weeks.
By ppaddy123
November 10, 2008 4:19 PM | Link to this
Eric from MO 4:02 PM I really can’t believe you used a “Gold Glove” to rate a players’ defensive ability. If there is one thing we have all learned from being regular readers of DOB’s blog: offense has a BIG consideration in winning Gold Gloves. David Wright is a prime example. He was raked over the coals last year by many of the regular bloggers for his defensive ratings. The Gold Glove has less to do with defensive skills and more about “who you impressed along the way”
By P-Town Brave
November 10, 2008 4:21 PM | Link to this
Eric
And Dustin Pedroia is 5’8” if that and hits rockets…whats your F’n point?!
By David O'Brien
November 10, 2008 4:21 PM | Link to this
Jurrjens third in Rookie of the Year voting, by the way. Behind Cubs catcher Geovany Soto and runner Joey Votto of the Reds….
By Sarah Barracuda
November 10, 2008 4:22 PM | Link to this
May I call you Joe?
By Steve from OH
November 10, 2008 4:23 PM | Link to this
DOB, I don’t think Tazawa is even allowed to sign until the championship series is over (I think).
By DAP
November 10, 2008 4:23 PM | Link to this
ryan c “ryan c and everyone else….the braves ARE NOT going to sign furcal for $10-15mil!!! no matter what happens this offseason, i PROMISE this will not happen. so stop it.” congratulations on getting nothing out of my post. i never said that we would be “signing” furcal. I stated that the point of trading escobar for peavy would be moot when we have to go to the free agent pool to sign a 10 million dollar shortstop (such as furcal). thanks for encouraging me to stop. next time try to type something intuitive instead of looking for an argument that wasnt there in the first place.
youre right. we arent on the same level, but its not because of me. i got what you were saying. i get your point. sorry i didnt exaplin it better(apparently) but here’s mine. the braves wont sign frucal for $10-15mil…let me finish!!! in other words, my point is that you dont have a point. trading for peavy is not going to cause us to also go spend big on a SS.
so your argument that we should forget about peavy, keep escobar and sign two $15mil free agent pitchers doesnt work. you are basically saying that peavy plus our new SS are going to make $30mil so why dont we just go get two pitchers with that. youre wrong.
By Steve from OH
November 10, 2008 4:25 PM | Link to this
Eric, Escobar must really be a sucky pitcher, eh? I mean, we totally sucked when he was here, no doubt. You win.
By Eric from MO
November 10, 2008 4:26 PM | Link to this
Oh thats right…Im sorry everybody. I thought gold gloves were for the good defensive players. I forgot that Ozzie Smith and Javier Vazquez only got gold gloves for their amazing bats.
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 10, 2008 4:27 PM | Link to this
Nocturnal Owl—
Guess so! Yes, he will continue his very good offensive SB%…would love to see two triples as well, but I’m really looking forward to improved D.
KC—
Yeah! : )
By ppaddy123
November 10, 2008 4:27 PM | Link to this
By Eric from MO
November 10, 2008 4:09 PM | Link to this
People 6’2 and 200 lbs is not very big. Im 5-10, 200 lbs and if you ask anyone that knows me I am very little. Also mines not all muscle. I do work out a couple times a week but I would hope Esco has a lil more muscle than me and muscle would make him little than me, which means he littler than a already little person.
5’10” 200LBS?!!!!! 12 once curls is not working out
By N8
November 10, 2008 4:27 PM | Link to this
Gusher
“It takes you a thousand words to let us know that you don’t know what you want?”
Here’s what I want in order of desire (keep in mind, reality - as in what escapes most bloggers - is not part of this equation):
Keep Escobar. Trade Lillibridge for Peavy. Sign CC Sabathia. Trade Brandon Jones for Dye. Play Jordan in CF. Sign K-Rod.
What’s that? That isn’t gonna happen? Oh. We’ll lets start over then…
In reality? What I would do??
Walk away from Peavy.
Sign Lowe and Burnett (or Dempster).
Put Hanson in the rotaton right out of spring training.
Sign Hampton on the cheap (well…cheaper than what his salary was last year anyhow).
Trade KJ to the Cards for Ludwick.
Let young Jordan start the season out in CF, but have Anderson and Blanco waiting just in case.
Pray to the baseball gods that Francoeur’s 2008 was the exception, not the rule.
Save the rest of the money (if there is any left) for mid-season deals to fortify the roster or pick up somebody via trade to make up for an injury.
Put Smoltz in the pen.
Sign Renteria (after the rest of the league passes on him) for our bench and backup 3B/SS, along with Infante to cover our asses for WHEN Chipper gets hurt.
There. Under 200 words. Well, actually with this sentence, it’s up to 214.
Sorry.
By Braveheart
November 10, 2008 4:28 PM | Link to this
P-town your right. Escobar is sooo valuable to our team. That is why the Braves have done nothing but win since he has been called up.
According to your logic, McCann isn’t valuable because they haven’t won anything in any of his full seasons.
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 10, 2008 4:29 PM | Link to this
At least JJJ was third…I would have liked to see him win, but I’d feel like a hypocrite because I’ve said before that pitchers should win ROY since they don’t play everyday.
Congrats to Grove! He did deserve it.
By Braves News Conference
November 10, 2008 4:29 PM | Link to this
The Braves have announced they will have a press conference at 7 pm this evening to announce that John Smoltz, Tom Glavine and Tim Hudson have sore arms. Mike Hampton will be mentioned as having a well rested arm after taking a couple of years off.
They will also announce that as of today, they still have an offensive team built around an often injured, aging third baseman and a catcher who is the lone bright spot. Fans will get a heads up that they can expect to suffer through another year of the same cast of characters refusing to hit in the clutch and failing to generate much offense in close games.
By Eric from MO
November 10, 2008 4:30 PM | Link to this
So does that mean Andruw got his gold gloves for his career .259 batting average.
By Little Me, Littler You
November 10, 2008 4:32 PM | Link to this
which means he littler than a already little person.Eric
I guess cause you are from Missouri that you are hardheaded as can be. Certainly looks that way. Let’s ask DOB about how “little” Yunel is. Care to take his word? Perhaps he will enlighten us.
By Eric from MO
November 10, 2008 4:33 PM | Link to this
Or was it Andruw’s 140 K’s a year that got him gold gloves. I already know Ozzie Smith’s career total of 28 homeruns won him his 12 gold gloves.
By FBomb Joe
November 10, 2008 4:35 PM | Link to this
Now we can add Joe Scarboro to the list of Joes’ here. He dropped the F-Bomb on his show this morning hehehe
By Eric from MO
November 10, 2008 4:35 PM | Link to this
P-Town, my point is everyone is saying Escobar is big. They keep saying he is 6-2 and 200 lbs. My point is that is not big.
By DAP
November 10, 2008 4:37 PM | Link to this
eric in MO People how old was he when he got drafted? I wasnt speaking about him playing in the minors I speaking of his age when he made it to the majors.
ok, thats fine. he escaped from cuba and then was drafted in 2005. thats still just over 2 years of playing the minors. you are absolutly wrong that it took him a long time to get to the majors.
Dap 6-2 200 lbs is little. Especially when you cosider muscle weighs more. 200 lbs is not that much.
ok. but its stupid of you to use his size as a reason he cant hit 20 homers. hes bigger than jj hardy, jimmy rollins, jose reyes, miguel tejada…im sure i could find more. his size is not a problem.
And what possibly makes you think he going to hit 20 homers, other than he is Brave.
youre right about him being brave. his escape from cuba i think shows that. but i dont see what that has to do with him hitting homers. the way he drives the ball when he is healthy is my evidence he could hit 20 homers and 40 doubles. thats all i have, i admit. but thats a better measue than his bravery. :-)
Braveheart, Yeah is defense is average at best. I can also promise he will never win a gold glove.
that is simply wrong. why would you insist on saying something that is so easily argued down? it is universally understood in the MLB that escobar is one of the best fielding SS.
So DAP no I do not want to take back my post.
thats ok, this is more fun.
I like Escobar too but he is not a great shortstop.
dont tell the padres.
By ppaddy123
November 10, 2008 4:37 PM | Link to this
By Eric from MO
November 10, 2008 4:16 PM | Link to this
Ppaddy123 I would agree with you if we could sign Sheets and Lowe for a combined 18 million a year like you say. Problem is both will get at least 16 million a year. Which means it will take 32 million for the both of them not 18.
OK let’s do some math. The Braves are going to sign two starters, right? #1 they could trade Escobar and get Peavy. Peavy gets what $14MM this season? The Braves still have to get another SS. Anyone decent will cost $4MM. But I don’t think $4MM gets the Braves a better SS than the one we have. Plus……I fell Peavy is a very good pitcher but how much did playing at PETCO effect his overall numbers. #2 The Braves are still going to sign another pitcher. Remember FW said two starting pictures. I think it will cost about the same either way. I just don’t want to give up one of the top SS in either league to get it done.
By David O'Brien
November 10, 2008 4:37 PM | Link to this
Eric, what are you talking about? Escobar played only 223 minor league games in parts of three seasons, including a half-season rookie league. He was called up in June of his third minor league season, his second at the full-season level.
He’s actually played more major league games (230) than he played minor league games.
And yes, he could hit 20-25 homers. He definitely has the natural power to do it. Dude hits screaming line drives to the gaps. Eventually, many of those could turn into homers. He doesn’t try to hit homers, but he’ll learn to get more lift on balls when he really wants to.
By David O'Brien
November 10, 2008 4:39 PM | Link to this
Oh, and Eric from MO, after your 4:09 post that I just read, you should be fined in kangaroo court. Sorry, dude, but hat was a weak post. So was your 4:33, now that we’re on the subject.
By Eric
November 10, 2008 4:42 PM | Link to this
I’m growing weary of the Padres and the whole Peavy fiasco. I would just as soon we go ahead and fix our outfield if there’s someone we really want and target Sheets or Burnette at SP. Then acquire another lesser SP like Olsen. Hopefully we get Tawaza and Hanson makes the club this year too.
That still leaves our farm system pretty much in take and gives us some wiggle room as next years trade deadline approaches.I want to win long-term, not just this year, Hudson will be back in 09, Jair is coming on, then there’s Hanson and maybe Tawaza to factor in to the equation. Lets not blow the entire IF up and trade a couple of young pitching prospects and the CF we desperately need for one guy. Peavys good and I’d love to have him but not at the cost of half the infield, our CFer of the future, and 2 backend rotation sp’s. We need quanity as much as quality, we are not one “questionable” ace away from winning 100 games imo.
By ppaddy123
November 10, 2008 4:48 PM | Link to this
By Eric from MO
November 10, 2008 4:30 PM | Link to this
So does that mean Andruw got his gold gloves for his career .259 batting average.
Andruw in his prime was the BEST center fielder of his generation. That is why he won all those Gold Gloves. But if you check, and I’m not even sure, I would lay odds he didn’t have the best fielding percentage every year.
My point to you, Eric, you are using an award that recognizes notoriety for playing a position to rate a players skill level. There are better, more accurate ways to measure a players defensive skills. Don’t believe me? Just ask Shaun. He will explain it to you over the next three days………just kidding Shaun
By Eric from MO
November 10, 2008 4:48 PM | Link to this
No Braveheart, I believe McCann has helped the Braves actually make it to the playoffs. I also believe McCann has been an all-star every year, while Escobar is not even in the top 3 shortstops in our division. So out of 5 he ranks 4th.
When Francouer came up most of you all were claiming he was going to be a perinial all-star and future MVP and future hall of famer. Three full seasons later that looks pretty foolish. Im just saying why not wait til we talk about how great Escobar is.
By DAP
November 10, 2008 4:49 PM | Link to this
eric from MO two non-shortstops yunel is bigger than : dan uggla and chase utley. still think yunel is a “liyyle” guy who cant possibly hit 20 home runs?
By David O'Brien
November 10, 2008 4:49 PM | Link to this
Escobar is “little?” That’s ridiculous. The dude is ripped. Can’t even think of more than a couple of major league shortstops as strong as him. He’s about Renteria’s size, but more muscular. Both are a couple inches taller than Furcal.
By BravesFanInRockies
November 10, 2008 4:49 PM | Link to this
Looks like the Rox will also trade Taveras (don’t even think about it, FW!) and will have Gonzalez, Podsednik, Spilborghs and Seth Smith fight it out for LF/CF. Hawpe is set in RF.
I still think we should make a play for either Spilborghs or Smith.
By Thrillhouse44
November 10, 2008 4:51 PM | Link to this
Eric, how do you explain Rafael Palmeiro’s gold glove in 1999 when he played 1B only 28 games? It’s far from a perfect system.
By N8
November 10, 2008 4:54 PM | Link to this
OK Eric. Explain Rafael Viagroids winning his GG in 1999, then.
In 97 he won it playing 155 games at 1B. In 1998 he won it playing 159 games at 1B.
In 1999 he won it while playing 135 games …. AT DH!!!! and 28 games at 1B.
Small sample? Sure. But OBVIOUSLY he got it off of past seasons reputation.
IMO, the fact that he got the GG in 1999, takes EVERY bit of credibility out of the award, along the same lines of a Milli Vanilli winning a Grammy.
So don’t try and act like the GG award is ALWAYS legit and given to the most deserving guy. It’s not.
By DAP
November 10, 2008 4:54 PM | Link to this
eric in MO to clarify something else i said, escobar was drafted very quickly after getting to the us. he was 22. it didnt take him till 22 to get drafted because of how he played, but because he lived in communist cuba and they woldnt let him leave. so your “why do you think it took him so long to get to the majors” argument to support that he isnt that good, also stupid.
By David O'Brien
November 10, 2008 4:57 PM | Link to this
Braves are going to be on the Sunday night major league opener for a second straight year, this time against the World Series champions. ESPN just announced the Phillies-Braves game will be Sunday, April 5, instead of the previously scheduled Monday afternoon April 6.
By Dadgum
November 10, 2008 4:58 PM | Link to this
Oh DAP, unless the Braves are going to be involved in a 3 team deal to acquire Peavy and get a SS you can bet good money that the Braves will have to spend decent money to acquire a free agent SS if they land Peavy.
A solid SS will cost you close to 10 mil a year but maybe they can back-load a contract.
The Braves have absolutely nobody in the organization that is ready to man SS which they have any comfort level with as an everyday guy. You can bet that they will have to open the checkbook to get a SS if they get Peavy. Again, how much and for how long has too many variables to discuss. Just suffice to say A LOT!!! And yes, they will pay it because you see this Peavy cat gets kinda excited with a strong SS backing him up. If you catch my drift.
Rock on…..interesting that the Padres are going to sign Hoffman. Last I saw they were offering him a pay cut if he wanted to stay. Things must have changed.
By Steve from OH
November 10, 2008 5:00 PM | Link to this
So…in the corner of “Escobar is good,” we have: statistics, the fielding bible, numerous reports from scouts, Bobby Cox, DOB, and the implied reports from the GMs inquiring about him, and the praise of teammates and opponents alike aaaannndd….
In the corner of “Escobar is overrated,” we have: never made an all-star team (what a bum!), never won a gold glove (he must be terrible!) and “is not big” (pansy!). You have convinced me, sir. Well played.
By kirknga
November 10, 2008 5:00 PM | Link to this
Good to see that not everyone has trading Escobar as an unquestionably good thing to do.
Downgrading at SS is a serious matter whether you have an” Ace” or not. Having a hole at SS and all of a sudden your ERA goes up which kind of defeats the purpose of the ace . Mediocre SS play makes the pitcher’s job harder and your ERA is likely to rise.
At the very least, trading away Escobar, and to some extent Morton, lessens the impact of acquiring Peavy. Instead of making a trade to fill a hole, we are going to make a trade, fill a hole and create hole at the same time.
By Nocturnal Owl
November 10, 2008 5:01 PM | Link to this
DOB after reading your comments, sounds like we should keep Escobar.
BravesfaninRockies,
So you are a Rockies and Braves fann? Wren shouldn’t get taveras cause he sucks?
By Steve from OH
November 10, 2008 5:02 PM | Link to this
BFIR, Spilborghs or Smith seems like the kind of under-the-radar move FW has up his sleeve. Either would be nice at the correct price. They’re good, not great.
By Buffalo NY Braves Fan
November 10, 2008 5:03 PM | Link to this
Whats wrong with 12oz curls?
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 10, 2008 5:03 PM | Link to this
ESPN just announced the Phillies-Braves game will be Sunday, April 5, instead of the previously scheduled Monday afternoon April 6.
Oh goody! At least that’s a day less to wait!
But doesn’t that screw up the schedule, with the off-day thing?
By Bubdylan
November 10, 2008 5:03 PM | Link to this
DOB, after a day of listening to McMurtry now, I have to make one wanna-be guru observation, and then I’m done. He reminds me a lot of John Prine (my favorite songwriter ever). But they conjur up a very different set of vibes. It’s hard to pinpoint, but I’m gonna make a stretch and say it’s the difference between Texas (JM) and parts of the country that have more green (Prine’s homes have been further east). Prine’s rural feelings are down-home, even with his edge. But McMurtry’s got something of Mad Max in him with all that dry, gritty, expansive, forsaken stuff he’s got going on. Do you know John Prine? Can you articulate this? (and for all I know, JM spent half his life in the east himself, blowing my theory to hell). And now I’ll officially let the McMurtry diversion die on my end. You’ve been gracious enough. Thanks again.
By Wayne
November 10, 2008 5:04 PM | Link to this
Eric 6’1” and 230 here in Utah. Not little. (actually, wishing at 53 years I was as ripped as a guy like Escobar)
Now, do I have to come out there to MO and ‘splain it to you???
:-)
By siskel
November 10, 2008 5:04 PM | Link to this
DOB
I have read that the White Sox consider Javier Vasquez a “bad contract” and are looking to dump him, he’s only on the hook for 2 years 22 mil I think, any chance the Bravos will jump on that. What about Milton Bradley too, 4 years 40 mil is a lot for an injury risk but dude can stroke it and Bobby seems too be able to handle troubled guys. He reminds me of Sheffield when we got him and that turned out okay.
By David O'Brien
November 10, 2008 5:05 PM | Link to this
Haven’t heard yet if they’re shifting the dates of the scheduled exhibition games vs. Detroit April 3-4 at Turner. If not, the Braves will once again have a chaotic time going from Florida spring training to Atlanta for two games, then to Philly to open the next day. If that’s so, I’m surprised they agreed to do that again. It didn’t go well last year.
By Original Jon
November 10, 2008 5:08 PM | Link to this
I dont think that if we get Peavy and say Lowe, that we will have the funds available to sign a cheap SS and trade for a right fielder.
Best bet is to trade KJ and a couple of lower level prospects for Ryan Ludwick and Cesar Izturis, kill 2 birds with one stone, so to speak.
Have Martin Prado be the 2nd baseman.
By Eric from MO
November 10, 2008 5:09 PM | Link to this
DAP DOB I was not claiming all that. All I was claiming was he was not big. Many people kept talking about how big he was and that he was going to git 20-25 homers because of it. I always kept my mouth shut even though I didnt think he looked that big, seen him plenty on T.V. then back in August saw him from 10 feet away when the Braves came to STL. I thought he looked the same size as me. However I continued to keep my mouth shut about his size, but then yesterday I heard someone say he was big because he was 6-2 and 200 lbs. Thats when I started laughing. That just isnt big. Now if you want to claim that he will hit 20-25 homers because of the way he hits the ball fine, we can agree to disagree but to claim he will hit homers cause he is big is just dumb. That is my point. Maybe I would think more of him if the Braves werent notorious for overhyping their players. Maybe he is good but Im tired of hearing about these great players coming up, Francouer, Davies, James, Marte, Salty and none of them have done anything. Maybe it aint fait to Escobar but I guess its time for one of these so called great prospects to actually do something.
By Wayne
November 10, 2008 5:10 PM | Link to this
If we end up keeping KJ at second, add a seriously decent bat for LF, and if CF is manned by Schafer, would we be sound enough to go with a combo at SS of Lillibridge and Infante?
Lots of assumptions there, the main ones being that Frenchy recovers and has a decent year, and that Schafer wins the CF job in the spring.
If we get a true masher for LF, and if Frenchy picks up the pace, we could probably live with a 240 average SS. I can’t imagine that Lillibridge would hit much worse than that over a year. (OK, so I am an optimist, sue me!)
:-)
By ryan c
November 10, 2008 5:10 PM | Link to this
DAP (AKA “King of the Misquote”), my post: “(which would basically be the equivalent of getting peavy + another starter and signing a 10-15 mil./year shortstop such as furcal).”
your post: “so your argument that we should forget about peavy, keep escobar and sign two $15mil free agent pitchers doesnt work. you are basically saying that peavy plus our new SS are going to make $30mil so why dont we just go get two pitchers with that. youre wrong.”
my scenario had ANOTHER PITCHER, not just Peavy and a 10 mil shortstop for the price of 2 free agent pitchers. Plus, you have to pay bucketloads for a ss the ‘2010, where with escobar, you would not. read posts carefully if you are going to argue them. arguing for argument’s sake has got to be tiresome.
it’s ok to disagree, but saying “you’re wrong” is juvenile. now, disagreeing and providing an enlightened point is better than the “nana-nana boo-boo” mentality that your first 2 posts have contained.
By rotty
November 10, 2008 5:11 PM | Link to this
DOB - good to hear more about Flowers and that he is even worthy of an article.
Given that he will be 23 in January 09 he may not be that far away from helping the club.
The question is where (what position/role) and when (09, 2010).
With some more time in the minors could he be this coming summers (09) Salty with a better outcome?
I guess where to put a power hitting lumberjack size guy is a good problem to have for a team with such a lack of raw HR power (at least of Flowers potential).
Don’t trade him Frank.
By ppaddy123
November 10, 2008 5:12 PM | Link to this
y Eric from MO
November 10, 2008 4:48 PM | Link to this
*No Braveheart, I believe McCann has helped the Braves actually make it to the playoffs. I also believe McCann has been an all-star every year, while Escobar is not even in the top 3 shortstops in our division. So out of 5 he ranks 4th.
When Francouer came up most of you all were claiming he was going to be a perinial all-star and future MVP and future hall of famer. Three full seasons later that looks pretty foolish. Im just saying why not wait til we talk about how great Escobar is.*
Eric, my dad had a phrase for people like you: People that think they know it all really annoy those of us that do
Just a word of advise…..there are some very smart people in here (not including myself). The wise man keeps his mouth shut and his eyes and ears open. You might want to try………….you might learn something.
By Eric from MO
November 10, 2008 5:16 PM | Link to this
People lets just agree to disagree. After next year I expect an apology when we see the real Escobar.
By Kevin
November 10, 2008 5:16 PM | Link to this
DOB Do you ever think about just making up trade rumors to get the other websites like MLB Trade Rumors or whoever else to chase their tails. I think you could have alot of fun with that. Throw out something about how Tim Lincecum is available and the Giants have always coveted Clint Sammons and see how soon it gets picked up. I would get in trouble with your powers.
By Steve from OH
November 10, 2008 5:17 PM | Link to this
Kirknga, I don’t think it’s an unquestionably bad thing to do either. If the deal is Peavy for Esco/Hernandez/Reyes/low-level prospect, then in my eyes it is essentially a straight-up swap: Peavy for Esco, becuase we don’t need Hernandez with Schafer in the fold, JoJo is spare parts, and a low-level prospect is, well, a low-level prospect.
While I do value Escobar (highly, actually), I think that our team is better with Peavy and no Escobar than with no Peavy and Escobar (excluding signings and stuff like that). With Peavy in the fold, we have the potential for a dominating rotation in the seasons to come, especially if we sign a good FA this offseason. Our success will depend moreso on the bat we acquire in LF rather than the Peavy/Esco debate, but there is no doubt we need pitching. Period. If it means surrendering Escobar (who is not a sure thing to become a superstar, might I add, especially in petco), then so be it. We can survive with a good glove/average bat SS, but I don’t think we can survive without a bonafide ace.
If I’m FW, I offer Esco/Gorkys/JoJo/Edgar Osuna (or someone like that: no Locke, Rohrbough, etc). I tell Towers to take it or leave it, and if he leaves it, I move on to plan B.
By Hiawatha Terrell Wade
November 10, 2008 5:19 PM | Link to this
Dave, I think we all know this Peavy domino is going to fall, it’s just a matter of who we’ll be giving up. But everything I’m reading about the Braves’ 2 other major needs - #2 SP and OF - has them filling those needs via trade too. Scott Olsen, Ryan Ludwick, Magglio Ordonez…I don’t think we have enough prospects to make all these deals, so they’ll have to turn to free agency to fill some of their holes. It still seems though that the only free agends I hear the Braves connected with (Lowe, Dempster, Renteria, Ohman, Hampton, Tazawa) don’t fill either of those two holes. They are not getting Lowe/Dempster and Peavy. Any guesses on who the mid-salaried player Wren plans to take a shot on at OF or SP? Randy Johnson? Randy Wolf? Milton Bradley? Rocco Baldelli? Juan Rivera?
By Nocturnal Owl
November 10, 2008 5:19 PM | Link to this
146 Days and 3 hours to opener!!!
By Eric from MO
November 10, 2008 5:23 PM | Link to this
ppaddy if the wise man keeps his mouth shut…then wouldnt that mean everybody in here are fools.
By kirknga
November 10, 2008 5:25 PM | Link to this
The average male in the U.S. is 5’9, so Escobar is “big” if that means above average height.
By ppaddy123
November 10, 2008 5:26 PM | Link to this
By Eric from MO
November 10, 2008 5:16 PM | Link to this
People lets just agree to disagree. After next year I expect an apology when we see the real Escobar.
Eric, I saw a movie once where Jim Carey talked out his A$$……………………which is what you have been doing all afternoon.
By Johnny B
November 10, 2008 5:27 PM | Link to this
Hey DOB, I’m planning on spending a week to 10 in Florida during spring training. Where is the best place to check on park locations and schedules as well as ticket info?
Thanks!
By BA
November 10, 2008 5:27 PM | Link to this
DOB, how good is Flowers at 1B? I salivate at the prospect of McCann and this kid in the same lineup.
By Eric from MO
November 10, 2008 5:28 PM | Link to this
I guess Steve from OH said it best for me. Escobar is not a sure thing unlike some of you speak. That is my point. Im sorry if I made some mad by saying he is just a decent player but Im just tired of hearing about these great players who are coming up through the Braves system and none turn out to be anything.(exception McCann)
By David O'Brien
November 10, 2008 5:32 PM | Link to this
Bubdylan, I just think McMurtry is possibly a little angrier and more cynical, perhaps the product of coming along at a different time than Prine, who’s about 20 years older and also doesn’t have the same edgy personality.
What I do know is this: McMurtry may be writing the greatest body of work, the best songs of anyone writing them today, in terms of both quality and quantity. Others put out terrific stuff, but McMurtry has hit his stride for quite some time now, album after album of meaningful, thoughtful, compelling, provocative stuff without filler.
McMurtry is upset about some stuff and doesn’t mind offending anyone by saying exactly how he feels, in his songs. He seems unconcerned about appealing to a mass audience, he’s just writing what he feels. Like a young Bob Dylan, in some respects. And no, I don’t think it’s a stretch to put them in the same sentence.
McMurtry’s flat-out brilliant in my opinion, and he has a sharp, sarcastic edge to him. And he pulls absolutely no punches. He wants people to think, and not just about pleasant stuff.
But speaking of political, did you hear some of the tunes on the last couple of Prine albums? He wielded a sharp pen and pointed it directly.
By BravesFanInRockies
November 10, 2008 5:34 PM | Link to this
Nocturnal,
I’m a Braves fan but I follow the Rox because I live here. Besides, Coors is a great place to watch a game.
And yes, Taveras sux.
Steve from OH,
Yep. Agreed. The best “fit:” with the Rox would be a deal for one of them involving KJ, but I’m not sure what the Rox could offer to balance the trade.
Would they swap Smith for Prado? Or LilBridge? Spilborghs for Morton?
Clearly, the Peavy thing needs to be resolved.
By Braveheart
November 10, 2008 5:34 PM | Link to this
Hudson, in the 5 years before becoming a Brave: 1104 innings, 96 runs above average, 219 runs above replacement, 43.7 runs above replacement average a season,
Jake, in the last 5 seasons: 968 innings, 118 runs above average, 226 runs above replacement, 45.1 runs above replacement average a season
Hudson, as a Brave: 777 innings, 41 runs above average, 127 runs above replacement, 31.8 runs above replacement average a season thus far; since he’ll likely miss almost all of next season: 25.5 runs above replacement average a season over five season
In the five seasons before they became Braves, Jake wasn’t better than Huddie. What makes you believe Jake will give a better result than Huddie as a Brave: 3.5 healthy seasons, not quite as good as they once were, 35 runs a season better than replacement during the 3.5 seasons they’re healthy; but only 25 runs a season better than replacement during the five full seasons they will be here.
How many runs above replacement was Escobar worth this season? If we just ignore his defense and focus solely on his offense, he was worth 25 runs above replacement this season. If you include his defense, he was worth anywhere between 35 to 40 runs above replacement
……. and folks aren’t satisfied with Yunel. What will they sound like if Jake over the next five seasons is only worth as much as Huddie has been as a Brave just like Jake was only worth as much as Huddie was in the five seasons before they became Braves?
If he’s only as good as Huddie has been as a Brave, he coincidentally will be about as valuable as what Escobar is now.,,,,
would be a shame to lose Escobar, Gorkys, Charlie, $50 to $60 million and financial flexibility to fill the huge holes we already have and not gain any extra run value over the next five seasons above and beyond what we are getting right now from Escobar
By Tomahawkin
November 10, 2008 5:35 PM | Link to this
Anyone think that Billy Beane has anything up his sleeve???
Beane may use Holliday as bait for the July 31st deadline…but its way too early to speculate that…
I just say this in that no one, even ESPNY didn’t report on this rumor…
By Lew
November 10, 2008 5:38 PM | Link to this
Y’all-Sheets has only made more than 24 starts in a season, once since 2004. Since 2004 he has not pitched 200 innings in a season. Last year, the ONE time he made over 30 starts in that four year period, he missed most of September with forearm soreness (when have we heard THAT symptom before) and missed the playoffs, too. People here want to sign him to a long term contract worth around $16 mill per year exactly why?
We need an innings eater without a HISTORY of trips to the DL. Ben Sheets, while a good pitcher WHEN he’s healthy is not the one.
By David O'Brien
November 10, 2008 5:39 PM | Link to this
Kevin, no, you lost a lot of credibility when you throw all manner of stuff against the wall, every rumor you hear. Not to mention if you were to intentionally throw innacurate stuff against it, in which case you’d not be taken seriously again.
By Braveheart
November 10, 2008 5:40 PM | Link to this
I guess Steve from OH said it best for me. Escobar is not a sure thing unlike some of you speak. That is my point. Im sorry if I made some mad by saying he is just a decent player but Im just tired of hearing about these great players who are coming up through the Braves system and none turn out to be anything.(exception McCann)
Eric, I actually feel the same way you do. That’s why I don’t want to lose Yunel. He’s actually good. It seems like the Braves are so willing to get rid of an already valuable major leaguer in order to protect the next wave of hyped disappointment and that just annoys me
By kirknga
November 10, 2008 5:41 PM | Link to this
Steve from OH
I agree with you about Peavy for Esco/Hernandez/Reyes/low-level prospect. That is a better trade, though not that much better.
I think my biggest hurdle is that I have seen Escobar play and know he is already very good with an upside.
I have not seen Hanson play and do not know if he will live up to the hype.Last year Charlie Morton was the bestest ever pitching prospect and a season later he’s trade bait.
I fear that Hanson is Morton, or even worse, Davies. If that turns out to be the case, then not keeping Escobar is a horrible decision.
By nolie
November 10, 2008 5:43 PM | Link to this
Eric
your statement earlier was that he won’t hit homers cause he is a small guy. I don’t care how fat you are with your 5’10 200 pounds, nobody with any sense thinks that 6’2” 200-210 pounds is “small”
and this begs the point of what does his size have to do with it anyway? There have been literally hundreds of players over the years thar are actually smaller that he is that have hit 20-25 HR fairly regularly. Jimmy Wynn was 5’9” 170 pounds and hit 30 several times. Ron Gant was 6’ 190 and hit 25+ numbers of times. Oh yeah, there was a guy who was 6’ 180 who managed to hit 755 of ‘em. So what is your point?
By Bay Area Steve
November 10, 2008 5:45 PM | Link to this
I know it’s been said that Wren reads the blog. While I don’t doubt this, I doubt the impact it has on the Braves’ actions.
Not to mention, one hopes that the Braves’ knowledge far surpasses that of the smartest blogger here.
But, Wren needs to read what Braveheart has posted the last week or so. And he needs to follow it.
Save Yunel.
Spend the $40 million.
By Salty Dawg
November 10, 2008 5:48 PM | Link to this
This just in: I heard from my guy who is a hotdog/peanut vendor at Turner Field - very well connected. He says that the Peavy deal is all but done and will be announced by the end of the week. He also says to short sell GM, for what it’s worth.
By Salty Dawg
November 10, 2008 5:49 PM | Link to this
Oh, and he also has a killer home remedy for skin rash. Let me know if you are interested.
By Kevin
November 10, 2008 5:50 PM | Link to this
DOB Understood, I just think it’s funny how these sites pick up every single rumor that gets uttered. At times, it seems like they don’t even have to put themselves on the line because they just reference whoever they picked it up from. It doesn’t matter if it is accurate or not. They don’t have to do any legwork and they get credit for other peoples tips.
By ppaddy123
November 10, 2008 5:52 PM | Link to this
Nolie as stated by me 5:26 PM today………Eric from MO has no point……….he’s talking out his A$$!
By Tomas
November 10, 2008 5:55 PM | Link to this
DOB,
I agree with you that it’s not a given they would trade Magglio, but I guarantee you that if they get a good offer with good pitching prospects(which they desperately need), they will agree. I mean the Braves would have to offer Kris Medlen, James Parr, and Brandon Jones for Magglio, and take on his big contract which I think is worth 18 million per year for a 35 yr old dude whose power is steadily declining.
Magglio still hits a lot, but it’s similar to chippers case, the guy can hit 360, but won’t hit 30hr or more.
For JJ Hardy it would have to be something like Jojo Reyes, Matt Diaz, and Tyler Flowers.
And also for Jake Peavy, it would be Yunel Escobar, Charlie Morton, Gorkys Hernandez, and maybe Jeffrey Locke.
So we lose: Yunel Escobar, Charlie Morton, Gorkys Hernandez, Jojo Reyes, Matt Diaz, Tyler Flowers, Kris Medlen, James Parr, Brandon Jones, and maybe Jeffrey Locke.
We gain: Magglio Ordoñez, Jake Peavy, JJ Hardy, and a really good chance of signing Dempster, Burnett, or Lowe.
I think Magglio would make 18 million, Peavy 11 million, Hardy 2.6 million not counting arbitration, and Dempster, Burnett, or Lowe at least 15 million. That adds up to 46.6 million, and if Junichi Tazawa agrees to his contract offer worth at least 4 million per year, That adds up to 50 million. Say bye, bye to John Smoltz, Ruben Gotay, Greg Norton, Tom Glavine, Will Ohman, Mike Hampton, and Julian Tavarez.
So I really think Magglio would be a bad idea, and JJ Hardy as well. We can’t trade the whole farm. That’s why I’m saying Jack Wilson is a good cheap solution for one or two years, who can play very good defense,and when healthy has hit 300 a couple of times. Hopefully we could get Ryan Ludwick, Pat Burrell, or Aubrey Huff. That sounds a lot more reasonable than Magglio, and JJ Hardy.
By ppaddy123
November 10, 2008 5:55 PM | Link to this
By Bay Area Steve
November 10, 2008 5:45 PM | Link to this
I know it’s been said that Wren reads the blog. While I don’t doubt this, I doubt the impact it has on the Braves’ actions.
Not to mention, one hopes that the Braves’ knowledge far surpasses that of the smartest blogger here.
But, Wren needs to read what Braveheart has posted the last week or so. And he needs to follow it.
Save Yunel.
I AGREE…………SAVE THE ESCOBAR!
By Original Jon
November 10, 2008 5:57 PM | Link to this
kirknga Seriously, you are comparing Tommy Hanson to Charlie Morton and Kyle Davies?? You simply cannot compare a strikeout pitcher such as Hanson to pitchers who pitch more to contact like Morton and Davies.
In 3 years so far in the minors, Hanson has a combined record of 20-15 with an ERA of 2.74 with 373 strikeouts in 322.2 innings pitched, with only 119 walks to go with it.
Davies has never been a strikeout pitcher and Mortons minor league numbers were nowhere near Hanson’s.
Morton, in 6 years in the minors, went 23-36 with an ERA of 4.47, 378 Strikeouts in 477 innings.
So, Hanson has almost as many wins in 3 years as Morton did in 6, with almost 2 runs better in the ERA department.
So no, Hanson is not like Morton, who had a good last year in Richmond and tore up the AFL, unlike Morton and Davies, Hanson has been tearing it up since he starting playing.
That, my friend, is not the type of pitcher you trade.
By mbatl
November 10, 2008 6:04 PM | Link to this
DOB, just a quick question: have you heard any Braves exec actually acknowledge that Escobar is part of any proposed package? Or is that just what the press has come to assume?
Reason I ask is, while I think life will go on without Yunel, I believe that a package of Gorkys/Schafer, Morton/Reyes, Rohrbough/Locke, and maybe Lillibridge, would actually trump any offer SD is likely to get.
Maybe I’m dreaming… but the Oakland/Holiday deal reminded me of how wrong the press (present company excluded, of course!) often are with their trade predictions.
By Serge
November 10, 2008 6:07 PM | Link to this
he “much better hitter” like you claim. Not that I think that Hardy would be a nice pickup, but he will be expensive (the Brewers aren’t going to just give him to us), and he is not going to provide an overall upgrade over Yunel. He’ll be a good player, but not better than Yunel overall, I think.
And don’t even start about the glove…Esco is arguably the best in the NL, and second-best at worst.
Im not arguing against his glove, thats silly ive said its really good. Its his bat i find utterly ovverated. Hes never hit for power, not in the minors and as you saw last year not in the majors sans his half season in 07. JJ Hardy has a higher slugging percentage. Thats really important. At least to me anyways . So yeah i like Hardy more because of his power potential. Just like i like KJ more than Esco because of his power potential. (But thats a fun argument for another time).
I simply believe Yunel Escobar does not have the “bat” to become that impact elite player. Certainly the glove. But not enough pop. And while he could get “bigger” that could impact negatively his defense. His biggest asset.
By David O'Brien
November 10, 2008 6:08 PM | Link to this
Hanson is so far beyond Charlie Morton in the entire mental aspect of the game, the confidence and maturity, it’s not even funny. And Hanson has four quality pitches right now, by major league standards.
By Braveheart
November 10, 2008 6:11 PM | Link to this
We gain: Magglio Ordoñez, Jake Peavy, JJ Hardy, and a really good chance of signing Dempster, Burnett, or Lowe.
That’s gonna cost you between $45 to $50 million when you only have a $40 million budget and haven’t yet given out any raises to the arb-eligibles.
By Bubdylan
November 10, 2008 6:17 PM | Link to this
I dunno if John Prine’s birth year puts him in a less likely spot to react against The Man (Vietnam, etc); but you may be right; McMurtry might have just have more pi$$ & vinegar in the tank.
I haven’t picked up any Prine since “Lost Dogs & Mixed Blessings.” My McMurtry splurge will cool my wallet down for a bit, but I’m bound to pick up the whole Prine discography eventually. I’ll keep an ear out for any protest pennings.
JM in the sentence with Dylan? Oof. I’m getting dizzy… well if you took the 10 best songs by each of them and put them side by side, you might have a case. But if you put their impact on the songwriting landscape, full ranges of thematic and melodic diversity, etc side by side, even projecting James’s next 20 years into the picture, I gotta say Dylan is insurmountable. I know… you only said “same sentence.”
By 18 Wheels of Love
November 10, 2008 6:18 PM | Link to this
Seriously, where does Tyler Flowers fit into the Braves equation? Is in the same position as Andy Marte and Salty? He’s blocked by an All-Star in McCann and also blocked at 1B by Kotchman currently and Freddie Freeman down the road. I kind of think that with his stock rising and being blocked at 2 positions, he will be traded. Or do you hold on to him in case McCann does get hurt? What is more valuable?
By pippie
November 10, 2008 6:19 PM | Link to this
DOB-have you heard anything as to whether the Braves are planning on bringing another announcer to replace Pete?I wonder if Don Sutton would come back to do radio with Chip??
By Original Jon
November 10, 2008 6:21 PM | Link to this
I wonder how the A’s got Holliday for basically Huston Street and a couple of throw ins. Gonzalez did nothing when he was called up and Greg Smith was 7-14 with an ERA of 4.16
So we could have gotten him with say, Manny Acosta, (who had a better ERA than Street), Jo-Jo Reyes (whose stats were almost similar to Smith’s and Gregor Blanco?
By Nocturnal Owl
November 10, 2008 6:24 PM | Link to this
The Rockies are prepared to turn around and trade Street to another team
By Coach (Skip and Pete will be missed)
November 10, 2008 6:28 PM | Link to this
Yunel Escobar on defense?
Escobar is a Braves pitcher’s best friend. When Red Sox analyst Bill James and friends evaluated major leaguers for The Fielding Bible – a publication devoted to defensive analysis – they determined that Escobar’s plus-minus score of plus-21 ranked second among all shortstops last season.
HMMMM. You mean to tell me the Braves are about to trade their best athlete and best defensive player. Not even Furcal was as good as what we have at SS right now and he was pretty valuable as the Braves lead off man. Escobar is 25 and he hasn’t yet reached his potential offensively. His glove, range and arm are superior to that of Furcal. Although, he doesn’t have the speed on the base paths that Furcal provided.
And the Peavy death watch grinds on….
By kirknga
November 10, 2008 6:29 PM | Link to this
Original Jon
My friend we can compare any players we wish to compare, that’s part of the fun here is it not?
My point was that Morton and Davies were well hyped prior to their arrival in the bigs and that they did not live up to the hype.
(I think Morton has a shot, but the point was not about who was the better minor league pitcher.)
We really have to go back to Adam Wainwright to find a pitching prospect whose performance matched the hype and expectations.
So given that track record,I don’t think it is unreasonable to question if Hanson will turn out to be Wainwright, or one of the others.
By kirknga
November 10, 2008 6:37 PM | Link to this
I simply believe Yunel Escobar does not have the “bat” to become that impact elite player. Certainly the glove. But not enough pop.
So you would’ve traded away Ozzie, or Templeton, or Vizquel, in fact it’s only been recently that SS’s had much pop.
You can be an elite SS and not hit a bunch of homers because SS is a defensive position first and foremost.
By Wayne
November 10, 2008 6:39 PM | Link to this
Original Jon
Are you kidding???? Acosta=Street???
Reyes and Smith have almost similar records????
Blanco=Gonzalez??? I don’t know Gonzalez, but Blanco is a AAAA outfielder.
By JasonInFL (formerly ME)
November 10, 2008 6:42 PM | Link to this
Well, I guess Peavy wasn’t the first big domino to fall…The A’s acquire Holliday…after being sellers recently…and he is in the last year of his contract? Interesting.
Now, hopefully Peavy will be starting for the Bravos on that wonderful opening night game!!
By mbatl
November 10, 2008 6:43 PM | Link to this
*Seriously, where does Tyler Flowers fit into the Braves equation? *
18 Wheels, what’s the rush? My guess is that he probably “fits” as the catcher for the Mississippi Braves next year.
By BA
November 10, 2008 6:44 PM | Link to this
Chip Caray and Don Sutton (radio) would be superb. Sutton is an ace, though- it would probably take Sabathia money to get him back.
I like Boog and Simpson on T.V. But you can’t beat Simpson on the radio- far better play-by-play guy than color.
By Steve from OH
November 10, 2008 6:45 PM | Link to this
Eric from MO, if you took my post to be in agreement with your line(s) of reasoning, you are sorely mistaken…I did it to say that an essential Yunel-for-Peavy swap would be a good one (or at least not a bad one) for us. You act as though he is just “decent,” whereas he is above average with the bat by fairly decent margin (see: career .280 EqA). He is also arguably the best defensive shortstop in the league. You really haven’t supplied any solid reasoning for your argument, other than silly gold gloves and all-star appearances and such.
I think that Peavy, even if he doesn’t help us win next season, give us the very real potential of having an absolutely dynamite starting rotation, and I feel that that is the best way to build a championship team (though Yunel would be a fine, nay, an excellent addition to said team). If it means sacrificing our starting shortstop, so be it.
Braveheart, your 5:34 was a good one. I think that Jake will provide more production than Huddy did since becoming a Brave, and by your own calculations (from what I gathered) Peavy is slightly ahead of Yunel anyway. I think that acquiring Peavy, along with a good LF bat and an average shortstop makes for a more complete Braves team than one with Yunel and no Peavy. And I don’t think Huddy’s transition from Oakland to Atlanta can be used as a legit predictor of Peavy’s transition, FWIW. Besides, he’s been better in the last 3 or so seasons than Huddy has (according to your calculations; I only skimmed them so don’t destroy me if I’m wrong lol), and Huddy has been our effective ace…so imagine pairing those two together in 2010 (along with JJ and Hanson). With a strong starting staff like that, we can get by with an average SS. Not so for the opposite relationship.
You Yunel guys make a solid argument (well, Braveheart’s is the one I most like), but I would rather have Peavy for 5 years than Yunel, no matter how much I like him (and I do).
Serge:
I see you’re not placing any value on Esco’s nearly 50 point lead in career OBP, eh? That can’t be important, can it? And by your “Hardy has more power” (paraphrasing) thing, surely you aren’t basing that on his advantage of six whole points in career SLG, are you? I cannot disagree more about your assessment of Escobar vs. Hardy. The stats (I know, stats, I see the pitchforks and torches a’comin) simply don’t support your line of reasoning. At all. Esco may not become the “impact offensive player” in the vein of A-Rod or Hanley Ramierez (especially if he plays the next 5 seasons in Petco), but he ain’t gonna be chopped liver, either. Hardy would be a nice pickup if Yunel goes, but he is NOT as good as Escobar. There really isn’t any argument at this point, I think.
And Braveheart, no way I include Charlie Morton in a Peavy deal if Esco is the centerpiece.
By Wayne
November 10, 2008 6:47 PM | Link to this
DOB Maybe you have already answered this, if so, I am sorry for the duplication:
Is Oakland planning to flip Holliday? This doesn’t seem like a good fit for the A’s.
By Steve from OH
November 10, 2008 6:47 PM | Link to this
Braveheart, I’m under the impression that the 40-45MM is after the raises for the arb-eligibles are taken into account. I think the figures are around 45MM committed, and up to 60MM with approximated raises…which woud give us approx 40MM to spend to get up to last year’s 100MMish payroll. I could be wrong though. Need a DOB confirmation.
By Joe M.
November 10, 2008 6:49 PM | Link to this
Carlos Gonzalez: .473 career minor league slugging percentage.
Gregor Blanco: Lowest slugging percentage (.309) for an Atlanta Braves’ outfielder, minimum 300 PAs, since Barry Bonnell in 1978.
By Nocturnal Owl
November 10, 2008 6:51 PM | Link to this
Trade Yunel or not? Ahh the suspense. Yunelfan, where are you?
By kirknga
November 10, 2008 6:53 PM | Link to this
Hanson is so far beyond Charlie Morton in the entire mental aspect of the game, the confidence and maturity, it’s not even funny.
Well I’ll get behind the assessment of the Braves and others in regards to Hanson. It is the judgment of many that Escobar must be sacrificed in order to protect Hanson. So be it, we’re getting an ace.
I hope his greatness becomes apparent quickly. I’ll be disappointed if we start hearing that he’ll really need a few years before we all can see what so many are seeing now because I’m not reading any qualifications about his potential at this point.
By 18 Wheels of Love
November 10, 2008 6:54 PM | Link to this
No rush….my question is do you take advantage of him being a hot commodity of sorts (I’m totally assuming he is a hot commodity) knowing he is blocked or do you do as you suggest and just let him be insurance for McCann down in Miss?
By Joe M.
November 10, 2008 7:00 PM | Link to this
Is Oakland planning to flip Holliday? This doesn’t seem like a good fit for the A’s.
“Rosenthal says the A’s do not plan to flip Holliday or trade him in July.”
[Source]{http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8779078/Sources:-A’s-close-to-deal-for-Rockies-star-Holliday}
By Nocturnal Owl
November 10, 2008 7:03 PM | Link to this
I hope his greatness becomes apparent quickly Kirknga
I hope so too kirk. Hanson’s stuff is electric, but not all develop and are MLB ready. Some take a while and I don’t want to hurt his future whatsoever. He arrives on his term. Lets not pull a Joey Devine please. Remember Kirk, Our big future prospects are all on the lower to mid level in minors. No need to rush Hanson. DOB did say he could pitch for Braves sometime in 09 season.
Tommy Hanson could become the next Generation of Tommy Glavine and more(in terms of success)
By BravesFanInRockies
November 10, 2008 7:04 PM | Link to this
Wayne,
I’d be shocked if the A’s flipped Holliday. They apparently have a little more money to spend in 2009 and he looks like a very good fit.
Besides, if the A’s aren’t contending next year, when the deadline rolls around they can either move him to a contender or bank the two draft picks, which Beane loves to do.
By mbatl
November 10, 2008 7:07 PM | Link to this
18 Wheels, in my uneducated opinion, you trade him now IF you’re getting something you really need (just like you would any prospect not named H… well, you know). Like, if we could get a JJ Hardy for him and some other prospects (which I doubt…), or even a Marlins pitcher who’s better than Scott Olsen.
But I doubt he’s seen as an “elite” prospect at this point. Hitting at AA tells the tale for a lot of players, and he’s apparently got some work to do on his defense and throwing. So, barring some great opportunity to cash him in now, I’d think we just let him develop and we always have the option of trading him in a year or two.
‘Course, if McCann keeps losing weight, we might move his svelte, slender body to CF in 2010, and let Flowers catch :)
By TennesseePaul
November 10, 2008 7:17 PM | Link to this
Braveheart: Perhaps I missed something, or read it wrong. You posted:
Hudson: 96 runs above average, 219 runs above replacement, 43.7 runs above replacement average a season
Peavy: 118 runs above average, 226 runs above replacement, 45.1 runs above replacement average a season
In the five seasons before they became Braves, Jake wasn’t better than Huddie
But looking at those numbers, Peavy was better than Hudson, or am I reading your values incorrectly?
Also, Peavy had a Cy Young in that time. In addition to that, Peavy had a 9.38 K/9 compared to Hudson’s 6.25 K/9. Peavy had a 1.138 WHIP compared to Hudson’s 1.207 WHIP. In fewer innings pitched Peavy struck out 243 more batters.
It appears to me that Peavy is better than Hudson over that five year span you analyzed.
But the question I have is along the lines of KC’s post: If you already had Peavy, would you trade him for Yunel? It seems to me you value Yunel more than Peavy.
By Bill
November 10, 2008 7:18 PM | Link to this
BA—I hope to -ell they don’t bring Don Sutton back. He’s a big fake. I lost all respect for him when I heard him call a 72 year old man a bald face liar, on a call in show. He should have told the old guy that he disagreed with him and moved on. He had to make a big scene. I didn’t like him even before this incident. I think he was let go because of things like that.
By kirknga
November 10, 2008 7:19 PM | Link to this
Nocturnal Owl
I really really hope so. Because if he doesn’t turn out to be a top of the rotation guy, then it would be a shame we didn’t protect Escobar, a player who has shown he can play at a high level in the majors.
I hope you’re right about the level of talent in the lower minors as well. I remain skeptical.
The Braves are a great organization with an outstanding minor league system, but I have not been impressed with the starter prospects that have come up, or gone out over the last decade with the exception of Wainwright.
By Wayne
November 10, 2008 7:22 PM | Link to this
I’m getting darned tired of the Peavy wait. I suspect FW is also.
Maybe he should give them an ultimatum. Lets get moving. Friday, it would be nice to be able to say “We have Peavy, Mr. Lowe, we want you to join our staff.”
If the Padres back off, then go after the big 3, make offers to all three and tell them we will take the first two that are interested. Gotta make the offer a good one though.
By TennesseePaul
November 10, 2008 7:23 PM | Link to this
Also forgot to mention, Hudson was two years older than Peavy when he came to Atlanta (27 vs 29)
By BravesFanChris24
November 10, 2008 7:23 PM | Link to this
If the Peavy trade comes through and we get him. Imagine the first game….
Peavy V Hamels
By Chopdawg
November 10, 2008 7:26 PM | Link to this
We need somebody to catch about 40 games, take some heat off McCann: maybe Flowers, more likely Sammons, for next season at least.
DOB, which other Braves are playing in AZ? I know about Hanson, Flowers, Matt Young; is Eric Campbell out there? Kris Medlen, maybe?
Also I think Kala Ka’aihue & one or two others are in the Hawaii Winter League this year…CHOP
By Wayne
November 10, 2008 7:29 PM | Link to this
BFIR Do you think we could pry away Spilborghs and Baker away from the Rox for Prado, Brandon Jones and maybe a lower level pitcher??
I have been a one man task force to try to get more pop for our corner utility guy, and I think Baker could be that guy. Being an ex Tiger, might be good motivation for him to reach his potential.
I also think Spilborghs, if he played 150 games in left, could hit 20+ HR’s and hit around 300.
Whaddya think?
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 10, 2008 7:33 PM | Link to this
mbatl Course, if McCann keeps losing weight, we might move his svelte, slender body to CF in 2010, and let Flowers catch :)
Ha! Yeah! Nice try! ; )
Hey, and that’s pretty cool about the new-and-improved Windward Baseball Academy! Now it has AC! Had a feeling it would improve sooner or later. Kinda had to, what with all the business I’ve heard it’s gotten.
By BA
November 10, 2008 7:41 PM | Link to this
Not familar with that incident, Bill- but I always liked Sutton’s broadcasting. The guy flat knows pitching.
Wayne, I like Spilborghs, but I bet they’d want more than that for those players.
By BravesFanInRockies
November 10, 2008 7:41 PM | Link to this
BTW, Wayne, CBS Sportsline’s Scott Miller says the A’s are trying to get public funding for a new stadium and think acquiring Holliday may persuade the locals they will spend more money on payroll to field a competitive club.
In this economy, I can’t see taxpayers ponying up more dough. But if the ploy works, then Beane looks like a genius. And as I said, in the worst case, they can still trade him in July or take the draft picks next winter.
By mitchie-san
November 10, 2008 7:42 PM | Link to this
I wonder if the Braves are getting tired of waiting and are looking harder at other offers for Yunel. We already know the Cardnials and Twins are interested….
By detroitchris
November 10, 2008 7:44 PM | Link to this
DOB, just saw my first Kings of Leon show saturday night and they sounded absolutly great…however talking to a couple die hard fans at the concert that travelled up to michigan they expressed their dissappointment with the new album/new sound and even went as far as saying they have sold out….i know you initially weren’t really feeling the album but have they changed that drastic in a span of just one year?
By Opener
November 10, 2008 7:44 PM | Link to this
*If the Peavy trade comes through and we get him. Imagine the first game….
Peavy V Hamels*
Yeah, Phils win 3-1 ‘cause the Braves can’t touch Hamels lol
By mitchie-san
November 10, 2008 7:46 PM | Link to this
I can affirm that Kala Ka’aihue, Michael Broadway and Johnny Venters are playing over here in Hawaii.
By BravesFanInRockies
November 10, 2008 7:47 PM | Link to this
Wayne,
That deal with the Rox might work. Even if Spilborghs’ power numbers slide a bit away from Coors (and I think he did OK on the road this year), he’s an on-base machine and runs the bases very well. 20HR is not out of the question if he plays every day.
I’m not sold on Baker as being anything more than a bench player if you take him out of Coors. That said, it would be nice to have a guy with more pop than Prado or Infante who can play both corner OF spots, along with 1B, 2B and 3B.
By Wayne
November 10, 2008 7:50 PM | Link to this
mitchie-san If they don’t get Peavy w/ Escobar, I would highly doubt he would be dealt. Maybe KJ, but it would shock me if Yunel goes for anything less than an ace.
Would you do Escobar for Greinke or Cain?
By Efrim
November 10, 2008 7:57 PM | Link to this
Not sure if someone has posted this already but the Marlins have traded Scott Olsen and Josh Willingham to the Nationals
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3694827
Not sure they gave up too much either.
By Wayne
November 10, 2008 7:57 PM | Link to this
BFIR Amen! Let’s not let our weaker hitting middle infielders play the power spots in the lineup.
To be honest, I would be surprised if Baker was ever anything but a utility guy.
By JasonInFL (formerly ME)
November 10, 2008 8:01 PM | Link to this
mitchie-san, what part of Hawaii are you in? My wife and I own a timeshare in Prinveville, Kauai.
By mbatl
November 10, 2008 8:01 PM | Link to this
Olsen and Willingham to the Nats for Bonifacio and prospects.
By mitchie-san
November 10, 2008 8:05 PM | Link to this
Wayne….ABSOLUTELY. Reason being, decent SS are easier to find than a pitcher like Cain or Grienke. Dont get me wrong, I am not a big fan of trading Yunel, but for either of those guys (or Peavy) I would.
By Wayne
November 10, 2008 8:07 PM | Link to this
Efrim Both of those guys could have helped us, but I suspect FW has his sites set higher.
By Steve from OH
November 10, 2008 8:08 PM | Link to this
Efrim:
That package they gave up does seem a bit light.
By mitchie-san
November 10, 2008 8:09 PM | Link to this
JasonInFL (formerly ME) I am stationed at Pearl Harbor on Oahu. I love it here. I havent made it to any of the other islands yet, but a plan is in the works to take the Super Ferry to Maui or Kauai. I hear they both are beautiful…
By mitchie-san
November 10, 2008 8:11 PM | Link to this
Looks like the Nats are rebuilding! And they are trying hard to get Teixeria. I am shocked that the Marlins traded interdivisionally (is that a word?).
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 10, 2008 8:11 PM | Link to this
Peavy vs. Hamels
Oh gosh…I cann JUST hear those guys on ESPN…
“World Series MVP, Cole Hamels, this” “World Series MVP, Cole Hamels, that” Blah blah blah!
I still wonder how they’re gonna work two days off in one week…this really messes things up it appears.
They oughta give ‘em Friday off…Why does the Home Opener hafta be on Good Friday? That really chaps my beak…
By robert
November 10, 2008 8:12 PM | Link to this
Man, we should have made a trade for them. We need to quit focusing on Peavy
By ncscoots
November 10, 2008 8:12 PM | Link to this
previous message was paid for by the Scoots Campaign To Keep Escobar
nolie, I believe that campaign has, to coin a phrase, left the station, LOL.
And, truly, I can understand the rationale for including him (even if I disagree), and I’ve said before that Wren surely has a plan of some sort to fill the vacancy.
It’s the righteous blogger spin of “he’s easily replaceable” that makes me roll my eyes and gently, discreetly, spit. That kind of thing tends to shred cred, if you get my drift.
You and I may disagree on the degree of the guy’s talent, but not on the fact of it. Wouldn’t you say?
By nolie
November 10, 2008 8:13 PM | Link to this
I have been a one man task force to try to get more pop for our corner utility guy, and I think Baker could be that guy.Wayne
I’m sorry Wayne, but I think that you are totally kidding yourself about Baker. Get him away from Coors and he just completely disappears. .216/.278/.356. Those are just gawd-awful career numbers and he was just as bad in 08 so there is no cause to believe there is any reason to expect significant improvement. Spilborghs on the other-hand seems to actually be able to hit away from the Sultanate of Swat and I wouldn’t mind seeing the Braves make a play for him.
By 18 Wheels of Love
November 10, 2008 8:14 PM | Link to this
mitchie-san…how are the waves today?
By JasonInFL (formerly ME)
November 10, 2008 8:16 PM | Link to this
mitchie-san, that’s right…I think I have seen you mention that before. My wife lived in Oahu for a while…she liked it, but we absolutely love The Garden Island. Of course, we are much for the night life anymore, so the calming affect of Kauai is very enticing to us. Well, it’s not like you can go wrong on any of them! I’ll post some of our favorite restaurants sometime in case you make it over there!
By JasonInFL (formerly ME)
November 10, 2008 8:17 PM | Link to this
Did the Marlins really just trade Scott Olsen and Willingham to the Nationals for that package…holy, we must have offered something better than that if we were truly interested in Olsen!
By FloridaBrave
November 10, 2008 8:21 PM | Link to this
Maybe I’m just not familiar with the guys going to Florida, but it looks like the Nats got an absolute steal here. Sure there are questions about Willingham’s bat and Olsen’s character, but both these guys are young, cheap, and have produced at the ML level.
It sucks the Braves couldn’t get in on this- both Willingham and Olsen fill needs for the Braves. I wasn’t crazy for either of them, but for that price tag…wow.
By Oh Goodie
November 10, 2008 8:22 PM | Link to this
Nats get Willingham and Olsen from Marlins
By mbatl
November 10, 2008 8:24 PM | Link to this
Both of those guys could have helped us, but I suspect FW has his sites set higher.
Wayne, I agree (or at least hope so).
It does seem to me that the Marlins sold awfully short on Willingham and Olsen, though.
By mitchie-san
November 10, 2008 8:27 PM | Link to this
18 Wheels of Love The waves are big all around, I hear 4’ to 7’ and some reports of 10’ up on the North Shore…
By mitchie-san
November 10, 2008 8:31 PM | Link to this
JasonInFL (formerly ME) Please do, me and the wifey will be here for the next three years. I am positive we will make it over there.
By Efrim
November 10, 2008 8:31 PM | Link to this
Wayne
Both of those guys could have helped us, but I suspect FW has his sites set higher.
You’re probably right.
Steve from OH
I don’t know too much about Dean and Smolinski, but it seems like a steal.
By 18 Wheels of Love
November 10, 2008 8:34 PM | Link to this
I’m jealous. Hope to make it out there one day. I think they are about to run the Pipe Masters event in the next few weeks. One day, man, one day!
By 18 Wheels of Love
November 10, 2008 8:36 PM | Link to this
BTW, 4 to 7 feet in Hawaiian terms is really 8 to 14 feet and 10 feet is a two story building chasing you. Hawaiians measure by the back of the waves, not the front.
By robert
November 10, 2008 8:37 PM | Link to this
Nobody give up anything anymore in trades. I would not give up anyone more than Kelly Johnson for Peavy. The Nats gave up crap. We should have traded for them
By nolie
November 10, 2008 8:38 PM | Link to this
You and I may disagree on the degree of the guy’s talent, but not on the fact of it. Wouldn’t you say?Scoots
absolutely. I think he is very good. It’s not that I really want to get rid of him or think it will be easy to replace him, I just want Peavy and am willing to trade… though it is very close in my mind.. I would prefer to trade Schafer rather then Yunel but the Pads don’t seem to want that. and I’m just poking some fun at you, I know you see the reasoning of the trade.
By mitchie-san
November 10, 2008 8:41 PM | Link to this
Yeah, the Pipe Masters are the begining of December. I will be going up there to watch. I’ll get some pics and video for ya and put it on the interwebs so you can check em out.
By brian
November 10, 2008 8:45 PM | Link to this
many above have compared trading Yunel for Peavy to trading the Chipper of 1995 for the Greg Maddux of 1992.
First of all, as good as Yunel is I do not think he has as high a ceiling as Chipper Jones did when he was young. Chipper was the #1 pick of the entire draft (thank you for being an a#$ Van Poppel) and Chipper had the classic, smooth swing while being a switch hitter as well.
I love Chipper and he is one of my favorite Braves of all time but if I as a GM had the chance to trade a young Chipper for a young Greg Maddux just off of a Cy Young, I would make that trade. A dominating #1 starter does not come along that often (especially one like Peavy under a friendly contract relatively speaking). That is why the Braves need to trade Yunel for Peavy if that is what it takes. That is also why the Braves should and it sounds like do have Hanson on an untouchable list.
Peavy, Hanson, and Jurrjens could become a solid core for a rotation both over a 162 game season and over short playoff series.
Pitching and defense wins championships!
Go Braves
By brian
November 10, 2008 8:45 PM | Link to this
many above have compared trading Yunel for Peavy to trading the Chipper of 1995 for the Greg Maddux of 1992.
First of all, as good as Yunel is I do not think he has as high a ceiling as Chipper Jones did when he was young. Chipper was the #1 pick of the entire draft (thank you for being an a#$ Van Poppel) and Chipper had the classic, smooth swing while being a switch hitter as well.
I love Chipper and he is one of my favorite Braves of all time but if I as a GM had the chance to trade a young Chipper for a young Greg Maddux just off of a Cy Young, I would make that trade. A dominating #1 starter does not come along that often (especially one like Peavy under a friendly contract relatively speaking). That is why the Braves need to trade Yunel for Peavy if that is what it takes. That is also why the Braves should and it sounds like do have Hanson on an untouchable list.
Peavy, Hanson, and Jurrjens could become a solid core for a rotation both over a 162 game season and over short playoff series.
Pitching and defense wins championships!
Go Braves
By ncscoots
November 10, 2008 8:46 PM | Link to this
The lightness of the trade package is more than counter-balanced by Olsen’s chracter issues and Willingham’s injury problems. The Nats have shown they are willing to take on reclamation projects, but they aren’t so stupid as to pay high-rise prices for them.
Meanwhile, the Braves have no room at the inn for such iffy players. They are getting ready to trade one of their best position players, remember? Any other acquisitions have to have a high probability of “solid”.
By Treadkiller
November 10, 2008 8:49 PM | Link to this
We probably could have gotten Olsen & Willingham for KJ and a very low propect! Oh well, on to plan C & D!!
By 18 Wheels of Love
November 10, 2008 8:51 PM | Link to this
droooool! Thanks!
By macdwolfpack
November 10, 2008 8:55 PM | Link to this
You have a team with the likes of Lastings Milledge and Elijah Dukes, attitudes are a way of life,Olsen will be just one more in a house of clowns
By mbatl
November 10, 2008 9:03 PM | Link to this
We probably could have gotten Olsen & Willingham for KJ and a very low propect! Oh well, on to plan C & D!!
I doubt it, since the reason the Marlins dumped those guys was because they didn’t want to pay arbitration prices, and KJ is up for arbitration. And the Braves would be and idiot to give KJ for them.
By ncscoots
November 10, 2008 9:04 PM | Link to this
love Chipper and he is one of my favorite Braves of all time but if I as a GM had the chance to trade a young Chipper for a young Greg Maddux just off of a Cy Young, I would make that trade
That’s exactly how young pitchers such as Maddux become free agents who sign elsewhere later. Someplace with actual run support.
That, in no way, means I equate Escobar’s upside with a young Chipper’s. But the concept of “pitching at any price” is a simplistic philosophy that guarantees a team will not field an offensive squad capable of maximizing good pitching.
By DAP
November 10, 2008 9:04 PM | Link to this
ryan c it’s ok to disagree, but saying “you’re wrong” is juvenile.
haha. compared to what? you must not have been on the blog very long. i dont have a reputation here of misconstruing people’s posts. you did not explain your position very well. try to be more clear next time, ryan.
By JoeBrave
November 10, 2008 9:05 PM | Link to this
Man I am GLAD, some of You people don’t run this club!!!! How bout We all Let Frank Wren do his damn job and just RELAX,I trust the man,and I am sure He knows what he is doing… If he has Yuel,Hernandez,and Morton on the Table, so be it…Damn only one of them are Major League ready,and that’s Yunel,Basically all Your really giving up is Yunel,Who knows Morton may never get it,and Hernandez, may just be another flas in the pan like Andy Marte,and Ol Big Ears Lillybritches….. And I swear if Someone else mentions Jordan Shafer as a damn starter, in Cf next year before he even hits in ST,I am going to SCREAM. every prospect is just that, A Prospect UNTIL HE DOES SOMETHING OF SIGNIFICANCE IN THE SHOW!!!!GOT IT!!!GET IT!!!!GOOD!!!!!
By Joe M.
November 10, 2008 9:05 PM | Link to this
We probably could have gotten Olsen & Willingham for KJ and a very low propect! Oh well, on to plan C & D!!
Why the hell would the Braves do that? That trade would be terrible, especially when the Nationals paid so much less for Scott “4.63 career ERA and a huge attitude problem” Olsen.
By JoeBrave
November 10, 2008 9:08 PM | Link to this
ncscoots:Did You happen to see the Rays??? wanna know how You win Championships??? It’s called Pitching,and Defense!! Offense is a close third in the order!
By JoeBrave
November 10, 2008 9:11 PM | Link to this
While I do agree the Wait for Peavy is getting a lil old, Patience is due in this case, Mr.Wren Must not OverPay for Only one arm that will only go to the hill once every Five Days,You are dealing an everyday starter..
By Efrim
November 10, 2008 9:13 PM | Link to this
ncscoots
I agree with your 8:46, but Olsen and Willingham for those players is still a very good trade for the Nats. That said, Olsen’s K rate has declined and Willingham does have a lot of question marks.
I do think the Braves are aiming higher. They are aiming higher on a lot of fronts. I like it. I just hope they are successful on a couple of them.
By Bubdylan
November 10, 2008 9:16 PM | Link to this
DAP The little “you’re wrong” tag you threw on at the end to ryan c is junenile and, from where I stand, it’s an established part of your M.O. I reacted to it when you did it to me about the same way. It just comes across as a sucker punch, especially when no such antagonism was in my original idea.
Possibly you don’t care, but if by some chance you do, it is a pretty ungraceful way to blog. I guess, as blog buttholedom goes, it’s pretty mild. But you shouldn’t be surprised when people react to it.
By Eric from MO
November 10, 2008 9:20 PM | Link to this
So for a break from the Peavy trade, has anymore happened with that Japenese pitcher? We heard the Braves offered him a major league contract but has anymore came of it? Not just with the Braves but has any other team come closer to signing him?
By JoeBrave
November 10, 2008 9:20 PM | Link to this
If You Guys really wanted to rape a team, How bout a deal with SF let’s trade Tyler Flowers,James Parr,and Eric Campbell to the Giants for say oh Tim Lincecum, maybe they’re as dumb as some of these other trades!!!
By DAP
November 10, 2008 9:23 PM | Link to this
bubdylan when someone is wrong, they shouldnt be surprised to be told.
By Nocturnal Owl
November 10, 2008 9:23 PM | Link to this
What we gonna let Ludwick walk away for KJ now? We are missing out on trades. Make it or leave it.
By Eric from MO
November 10, 2008 9:25 PM | Link to this
JoeBraves I completely agree with you, but the Phillies won the World Series and they did it with hitting. This time it doesnt really help your arguement. However, I do agree with you pitching wins championships.
By grillmaster
November 10, 2008 9:27 PM | Link to this
First time poster here, so pardon my potentially ridiculous question… I have been curious about something and haven’t found much talk about it. Is the M’s Bedard at all available? The greedy/utopian side of me sees Peavy and Bedard as a stellar right/left combo at the front end of the rotation. The realistic side of me sees Bedard’s recent surgery and also wonders if the M’s would be willing to trade him for future help. I just can’t imagine they would expect an instant turn-around from a $100+million, 100+loss season. Any thoughts?
By Treadkiller
November 10, 2008 9:28 PM | Link to this
I was being a little sarcastic with my proposal. My main point is that while we’re waiting for Peavy, deals are being made! Holliday, Olsen & Willingham have be mentioned on this blog as possible aquisitions. Now they are off the board! I sure hope FW is working on something bigger! The longer we wait the more players will bo off the board!
By Nuke LaLoosh
November 10, 2008 9:31 PM | Link to this
Eric- Tazawa can’t sign for at least another few weeks. He’s obligated to pitch in a corporate league or something over in Japan before he can sign- or even make up his mind for that matter. Probably won’t here anything from him for another few weeks- but you can bet that other teams have, or will, make offers to him.
By David O'Brien
November 10, 2008 9:32 PM | Link to this
Folks, so if the Peavy trade wasn’t the very first one finalized by any major league club this spring, then the Braves should just figuratively slam the phone down, tell Towers to go VORP himself and move on to a lesser deal? Wow, good thing some of you guys don’t take this stuff personally or get all emotional conducting business….
Eric, we discussed Junichi Tazawa just a few hours ago. Look above….
By Ron in mobile
November 10, 2008 9:33 PM | Link to this
While ive been very impressed with olsen at times, im glad he’s going elsewhere. He has that cap cocked to the side im so cool attitude. Ive also noticed that he is prone to pout after being taken out. Im pretty sure that would get him on bobby’s bad side.
Willingham is not a bad player, but with Francouer in right and who knows in center. I think we need a bonafide player, one that you just pencil in 30hr 100rbi.
By nitram odarp
November 10, 2008 9:35 PM | Link to this
Here is the thing. Braves are not going to compete this year. Peavy is the start or who ever ace they get. 2010 the rotation is going to be awesome. let them trade away lets get peavy. also who do we have in the minors to be a shortstop? no one! unless elvis counts? but unfortunately texas would have to give him back.
By David O'Brien
November 10, 2008 9:36 PM | Link to this
Mitchie-san, Jason, 18 Wheels: Ah, nice to see the Aloha conversation. Kaui … heaven. I love Maui, more to do there, but Kauai is more relaxing and chill. What a terrific place. Of course, if I can live in some modest shack way up the Hana Highway on Maui, I’d do it in a heartbeat…
By Steve from OH
November 10, 2008 9:37 PM | Link to this
Scoots, nolie, you guys are making excellent points about Esco vs. Peavy. If we trade Escobar, we’d better be damn sure that we’ll be able to pick up a big stick for the outfield. If we don’t trade him, we’d better be damn sure that we’re able to pick up a stud starter. Quite frankly, there are a lot of holes on this team, thanks in no small part to Tim Hudson’s injury (no offense Timmy), and we’re going to have to give up talent to get some in return, and I feel that having Peavy under control for 5 seasons justifies giving up Escobar, as painful as it may be. As the team is currently comprised, I don’t see us having any ability to win in ‘09 (but I do think we’ll win 80 games or so), unless FW is some sort of genius or something. But I do think the addition of Peavy will set us up for a potential string of success starting in 2010 when Hudson comes back, and Hanson and Schafer begin to fully develop and become acclimated to big-league culture. The kicker is Brandon Hicks, who, if he has a good season at AA next year, may step into the SS position in 2010. If not, we will be more than able to reassess our farm depth, payroll, and needs to acquire another SS. Folks, we don’t have to complete process in one offseason (though I know the FO would like to). Frankly, if we’re lacking at the SS position in ‘09, but fortify our other holes well, like by adding Peavy, an OF, and a free agent pitcher (Derek Lowe? Do it FW!), with a stroke of luck we can be competitive in ‘09 regardless of who our SS is. But we’re set up more strongly for the future, where we can see that SS is an isolated hole, and we can devote lots of attention to fix it. That’s where I think the real value is in acquiring Peavy (while keeping Hanson). It will be far easier to acquire an adequate, even above-average SS if we need to (even if he’s not on Yunel’s level) than it would be to acquire an ace in the offseason. The price for Peavy, frankly, is quite low for a player of his caliber. Did you see what the A’s gave up for Holliday, a Boras client under contract for one season? And then our package for an ace under reasonable contract for five? Regardless of your feelings for Escobar, that is a steal, and FW will smart to take it while he’s got the chance. There is damage, no doubt, by taking the deal, but with it being only one player (as opposed to Hanson/Schafer/etc in the package as well), it is as minimally painful as possible, I think.
But losing Escobar would be a tough pill to swallow. Really hate to see him go. And one more time, just to be sure, JJ Hardy is not better than Yunel.
By Bubdylan
November 10, 2008 9:38 PM | Link to this
bubdylan when someone is wrong, they shouldnt be surprised to be told.-DAP
You can’t see how it might come of as unecessarily harsh to first make your argument and then, after all the facts of your argument are made, stick on a big fat authoritative “You’re Wrong?” I mean, it’s obvious you thought he was wrong, hence the debate. And when you shot the same sort of deal my way, you didn’t even make any argument; just said “no it isn’t.” You spit out a couple words in a tone that suggests it isn’t debatable at all. Just cuz you say it in a three word maxim don’t make it so. Whatever, man. Hit me with your five-word dismissal and do you last-word happy dance. I’m done with it. Gave it more than it deserved anyway.
By Another Easy Out ?
November 10, 2008 9:39 PM | Link to this
What if McCann can’t hit any better skinny than Francoeur could buffed up? Anybody think of that?
By Steve from OH
November 10, 2008 9:39 PM | Link to this
Efrim, I know the prospects in that deal are in the GCL and the class A- New York/Penn league, so they must be high upside guys or something…just don’t see that as a strong package at all. Oh well, the guys coming back have their downsides too.
By nolie
November 10, 2008 9:42 PM | Link to this
How bout a deal with SF let’s trade Tyler Flowers,James Parr,and Eric Campbell to the Giants for say oh Tim Lincecum, Joe
no way man. Flowers shows way too much promise. If they want a catcher it can be Sammons
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 10, 2008 9:43 PM | Link to this
…Anybody think of that?
Yes.
By David O'Brien
November 10, 2008 9:43 PM | Link to this
I was just thinking how this have been a great time for REM to release “It’s the End of the World as We Know It, and I Feel Fine…” Or for Leonard Cohen to release his The Future album.
Things are grim and getting grimmer, for sure. Driving around Mesa, Ariz., it’s amazing how many things you see shut down, stores, coffee shops, everything. You don’t notice it so much in the money-lined parts of the bigger cities, but in the middle-class and below sections and the outlying areas of cities, you sure see it everywhere.
Just left a Circuit City that was having a going-out-of-business sale. Got a discounted copy of U2’s Under A Blood Red Sky DVD and the new Q-Tip CD. But man, I’d rather have paid full price than soak up the depressing vibe in that store, which I always feel when I’m in a place that’s going out of business and the crap’s just lying around, looking like your house or apartment when you’re moving out (which also depresses me, always feels kinda sad even if you’re moving to a better place).
By Moby Grape
November 10, 2008 9:45 PM | Link to this
Holliday, Olsen & Willingham have be mentioned on this blog as possible aquisitions
none of them taken all that seriously by most. they all have issues. We can do better.
By 18 Wheels of Love
November 10, 2008 9:46 PM | Link to this
I would prefer Towers go WHIP himself.
By Nocturnal Owl
November 10, 2008 9:47 PM | Link to this
tell Towers to go VORP himself and move on to a lesser deal? DOB
You got me there. LOL, nice way of putting it DOB! Just need some anxious pills.
By JEB
November 10, 2008 9:48 PM | Link to this
DOB Only on a motorcycle can you have an experience, on a ride, that when you are finished you proclaim “I’ll never do that again!”. Yet, you can talk about it for a lifetime as if it was something special and to be treasured! Man, I have racked up these stories with some of the rides and experiences I have had on a motorcycle through the years, they have become great memories!
Here’s to your memorable ride in AZ.! God blessed the misery as a great memory.
By DAP
November 10, 2008 9:51 PM | Link to this
bubdylan are you serious? do you see the banter that goes on here? did you see the jabs ryan c threw my way? i dont see you standing up for me. its back and forth, man. its no biggie, its a blog. i can handle it, and i think ryan will be ok. ryan, if youre feelings are hurt, i apologize.
bubdylan, when i told you “no it isnt” a few blogs ago, i didnt think your assertion merited an argument. if youd like to discuss it, id be glad to. i mean that sincerly. i will make time to have that discussion with you on the blog. just let me know.
By Joe M.
November 10, 2008 9:52 PM | Link to this
no way man. Flowers shows way too much promise. If they want a catcher it can be Sammons
You kidding me? Flowers, Parr and Campbell for Tim Lincecum would be a steal for the Braves…which is why the Giants would never do it.
By 18 Wheels of Love
November 10, 2008 9:53 PM | Link to this
A Circuit City going out of business? Really? You don’t see many of the big boxes going out of sale. Crazy stuff.
Love the aloha even though I’ve haven’t been there yet - but plan to. Hearing a lot of good things about Kauai but of course I have to see the North Shore. Not sure I want to venture out at Pipe but I do want to surf something substantial. Waiting on hurricane swells is testing my patience.
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 10, 2008 9:53 PM | Link to this
Ah, heck, dude. McCann has always been a good hitter, no?
I think your Q is unlikely to become reality, but sure, the thought crossed my mind. But I can’t go by that. I got a jillion “worrisome” thoughts goin’ on in there…not many of them become realities. Just a couple…
Heck, it’s gettin’ late. I’m not as creative this time-a night ‘cause I have to type in a hurry to get it all in.
Night, all!
By Ron in mobile
November 10, 2008 9:53 PM | Link to this
Another easy out
I sometimes wonder if Francouer isnt just a little bit jealous of Mccann.
I mean this guy was on the cover of SI three years ago and now many of us wouldnt loose any sleep if he were shipped out. While Mac at least to me is our best player
Im sure hes happy for his friend, but still. This is certainly a classic case of some tables being turned.
By David O'Brien
November 10, 2008 9:54 PM | Link to this
mitchie-san, if you really think the Nationals have a shot in hades of getting Teixeira … well, they don’t, I’ll leave it at that….
Detroitchris: Yes, Kings of Leon have changed the sound quite a bit. Used to be more a Southern/garage/raw sound. I do like the new album, though. It was their appearance on SNL that turned me off, initially. I thought it was a weak two-song performance there, but those same two cuts on the CD are solid. It’s not as good as their first couple of CDs, but it’s very good, in my opinion.
If you can find it, pick up a copy of their first album, “Holy Roller Novocaine,” from 2003, or “Youth and Young Manhood” that same year (had some of the same stuff on it). You’ll see why some might call them sellouts. I don’t go that far, at all. But they certainly are a lot different now. Hey, that’s almost inevitable, though. They wanted to sell records, and they also probably felt like they grew out of that sound. But it was fantastic, as was Aha Shake Heartbreak in 2004
They were more country-tinged with punk attitude early on, when they earned the “Southern Strokes” label (back when the Strokes were great, when their first album came out)
By brian
November 10, 2008 9:54 PM | Link to this
ncscoots -
I was just saying I would make that trade because it would be easier to replace the offensive support than it would be to find a Greg Maddux in his prime.
I also think it would be easier, though not an ideal situation by any means, to replace Yunel at SS then find a young, Cy Young winning, #1 starter under contract for 4 years.
DOB has listed many options that are available for the Braves at SS and I think people are selling Lillebridge short. Show me a pitcher at Peavy’s level at Peavy’s price with his length of contract that is available
By kirknga
November 10, 2008 9:56 PM | Link to this
Steve Oh
What if Peavy reaches the same conclusion and doesn’t want to wait a season to win?
I think we shouldn’t underestimate the allure of playing for a winning team. He would have a shot at a ring next season in Chicago, but much less so here(especially without Yunel).
By Eric from MO
November 10, 2008 10:03 PM | Link to this
Thanks Nuke.
By Ben
November 10, 2008 10:04 PM | Link to this
Circuit City filed for Ch 11 bankruptcy, but that doesn’t mean they’re going out of business altogether. Some stores surely will close, but not all.
By Trade Fever
November 10, 2008 10:05 PM | Link to this
I think lots of folks here are getting “trade” fever. That’s a lot like buck fever! Either shoot and miss or shoot at anything that moves!
People… the Braves already have Willinghams and Olsens on the team. No more are needed.
If a Peavy deal is done, then great! If not, go hard after one FA pitcher and see what may be out there for Escobar or Johnson. Look at the the teams who made the trades for big time pitchers this season past. C.C. did great, but he didn’t get Mil to the World Series. Look at Rich Harden and Dan Harren. The Universe was changing, the earth moved when these guys came to their repective teams. Neither put their team in the WS.
No doubt there are big time, impact pitchers out there but many times these guys don’t put teams over the top.
I wouldn’t be dissatisfied if the Braves pick up a couple of number twos, and I mean solid number twos, that demand less than top dollar on the FA market or less than 3 top prospects on the trade market.
If it takes Esco and Gorkys and a Jo Jo to get Peavy, I suppose I would have to consider it…. but to me, that may be too steep.
I know you have to give up something to get something, but my mindset has changed over the years regarding making a splash with a FA or trade signing. I would love to have a couple of young, can’t miss starters on the cusp, rather than giving up too much for a “now star.”
We need pitching, but we need some offense that isn’t going to suffer from mass hysteria in tight games that result in lots of failed opportunities in close games. The Braves have to win close games this year or they will look just like they did last year, no matter who throws out the first pitch!
By LKS
November 10, 2008 10:09 PM | Link to this
Peavy vs. Hamels
0-0 bottom of the ninth. Man on 2nd. Utley at the plate and two outs. OH and a Line Drive up the middle that the ss just didn’t have the range to get to. And the Phils win.
By Steve from OH
November 10, 2008 10:10 PM | Link to this
kirknga, I don’t think Peavy will turn down a trade to the Braves if Towers tells him a deal is done pending is approval. Think about it: would you rather play for the Padres, a team in a self-admitted rebuilding phase, or the Braves, a team with a good young talent base with a payroll more than double that of San Diego’s and publicly willing to win? The choice is simple.
Peavy won’t turn down a trade to Atlanta. He can’t choose between Atlanta and Chicago. Only between San Diego and Atlanta/Chicago. He can’t be sure that a deal will get done if he turns down an offer hoping the other one will go through.
By Morally Bankrupt
November 10, 2008 10:14 PM | Link to this
18 Wheels…..
Circuit City filed for Bankruptcy today.
Things pretty well suck right now huh?
By nolie
November 10, 2008 10:14 PM | Link to this
catcher it can be Sammons
You kidding me? Flowers, Parr and Campbell for Tim Lincecum would be a steal for the Braves…which is why the Giants would never do it.Joe
yes I’m kidding you. I assumed you were being facetious and I replied in kind. We were talking raping SF, right? I just upped your ante. In all seriousness though, I do really like Flowers so far. I’m an OBP kinda guy and he showed great discipline along with the pop. Not that I wouldn’t trade him in the right deal. after-all as we both have stated many times…prospects are prospects till they prove something where it counts.
By Efrim
November 10, 2008 10:18 PM | Link to this
Steve from OH
Yea, not a great return. I think they could of done better, although I am not sure what the market was for either guy.
By keylargo
November 10, 2008 10:21 PM | Link to this
Circuit City filed for Ch 11 bankruptcy, but that doesn’t mean they’re going out of business altogether. Some stores surely will close, but not all. Ben
What it does mean is that 155 stores will close by Dec. 31 including 18 in the Atlanta area.
By Thrillhouse44
November 10, 2008 10:26 PM | Link to this
So, the Nats got Willingham? They needed another outfielder like Rosanne needs another trip through the buffet line.
By TennesseePaul
November 10, 2008 10:27 PM | Link to this
ncscoots: That’s exactly how young pitchers such as Maddux become free agents who sign elsewhere later. Someplace with actual run support
Maddux left as a free agent from the Cubs to join the Braves who had no offense. The Braves actually passed up acquiring Barry Bonds and building the offense in favor of pitching. That no offense, incredible pitching team won the World Series with the second worst hitting team in the majors.
By 18 Wheels of Love
November 10, 2008 10:32 PM | Link to this
I get that they filed for protection….however that doesn’t always mean stores will close. Obviously in this case it does. Just hits home a little more when you see the big boys closing doors.
By Thrillhouse44
November 10, 2008 10:33 PM | Link to this
DOB, how does Q-Tip’s new album compared to Amplified? That was a great disc and I’m considering copping this one if it’s on the same level.
By brian
November 10, 2008 10:34 PM | Link to this
thanks TP
By JEB
November 10, 2008 10:44 PM | Link to this
LKS
Yea, but you should have seen the play the SS turned in the 5th to stop a rally, 1 out and bases loaded, great play! (If this is how we want to day dream - you just never know!)
By Thrillhouse44
November 10, 2008 10:49 PM | Link to this
Jeb/LKS, what inning did Bobby get ejected?
By Bubdylan
November 10, 2008 10:50 PM | Link to this
bubdylan, when i told you “no it isnt” a few blogs ago, i didnt think your assertion merited an argument. -DAP
Nice try. But that’s bull. If it didn’t merit an argument, then it didn’t merit a snipe out the side of your mouth, did it? But consider the assertion that you say didn’t merit even an argument, DAP. I was lamenting that it seemed like nice guys finish last in this sport. That’s an insupportable assertion? Really? Even if Barry, Boras, and Manny didn’t exist, The idiom itself, “nice guys finish last” was originated in major league baseball. Look it up. Leo Durocher. And it wasn’t just the name of his book, he meant it. So, next time you pass by an assertion that doesn’t merit any argument, maybe just pass it by quietly.
By David O'Brien
November 10, 2008 10:50 PM | Link to this
Thrillhouse, I haven’t listened to it yet, but all reviews have been terrific, said it’s as good or better than Amplified. I know, that’s saying a lot.
By LKS
November 10, 2008 11:05 PM | Link to this
JEB
Touche! Personally I want the cake and eat it too…and ice cream…and if I really want to be picky make it chocolate ;) But thats not reality
Thrillhouse 44 LOL smh
By Bravestillidie
November 10, 2008 11:15 PM | Link to this
This is just a random comment, but I reall feel inclined to thro it up after reading this blog continuously over the last few weeks, and frequently over the last few years.
I really wish everyone who contributes regularly on this blog would realize its much more important to contribute to the discussion and understand everyone has a different, and most likely valid point of view…at least from their perspective. It should nto be about proving people wrong, or proving yourself right. It really gets sophmoric on here sometimes like some 3rd graders posturing on a playground.
BTID
By Duke
November 10, 2008 11:26 PM | Link to this
Just to comment on “The Rennisiance”, Q Tips new album. Its great. The first single is “Getting up” and it is a good start. Its old school rythym and flow from an old school dude. Classic, just classic.
By Bubdylan
November 10, 2008 11:30 PM | Link to this
It really gets sophmoric on here sometimes like some 3rd graders posturing on a playground. -BTID
My dad’s tougher than your mom, no wait…
You’re right, of course. Sorry for foggin’ up the blog.
By kirknga
November 10, 2008 11:35 PM | Link to this
Steve Oh
You may be right. I don’t think any of us can say with certainty that Peavy will pick us and not the Cubs.
We’re all assuming that he will. And since he has that no-trade option it is up to him and the Padres can’t force to come here.
Besides geography, what advantages are there in coming here instead of Chicago?Perhaps a more pitcher-friendly park for sure, but beyond that I’m not sure.
I love the Braves, but I think we’re kidding ourselves if we believe that a fierce competitor like Peavy would not have any reservations about choosing a 1st place team over one that finished 4th and might do so again.
By Steve from OH
November 10, 2008 11:41 PM | Link to this
DOB, I know that this probably isn’t right up your alley, but if you get a chance, check out Paul Gilbert’s album Spaceship One. Lots of good “undiscovered” tracks buried in there. Not the kind of stuff you’d expect from a guitar hero I’ll admit…
By Thrillhouse44
November 10, 2008 11:44 PM | Link to this
Thanks DOB and Duke. I’ll probably grab the Rennisance this week.
By Steve from OH
November 10, 2008 11:48 PM | Link to this
Kirknga, I agree with all of that, but again, the point I’m trying to make is that Peavy can’t choose between Atlanta and Chicago directly. He can only turn down a trade in hopes of forcing another one on the front office, but that’s a dangerous game of chicken if the guy really wants out of SD. If Towers comes to him and says “we’ve got a deal with Atlanta in place,” I don’t think there will really be any way he turns it down. It’s too risky, because if winning is that important to him, he wouldn’t want to take any chances getting stuck on a 95-loss Padres team, would he?
By Mike S
November 10, 2008 11:56 PM | Link to this
I listened to Renaissance once all the way through and think it’s good, not great. Two songs I like the best are “Won’t Trade” and “Man/Woman Boogie.” Will definitely need to listen a few more times, but that’s my take so far.
By Richie
November 11, 2008 12:02 AM | Link to this
DOB, and others interested:
I have purchased The Renaissance. I also listened to it on Allhiphop.com. I haven’t purchased a hip hop cd since the Black Album, yes that long.. I absolutely enjoy this album, have downloaded half the songs in my phone. It is a 12 track album, that gives a classic Tribe Called Quest feel. It sounds like the Q-Tip we are all accustomed to hearing, the one we grew up listening to. It is an easy on the ear, quick album. I think everyone who listens or purchases this album will be pleasantly surprised.
By David O'Brien
November 11, 2008 12:04 AM | Link to this
Pretty amazing finish to this Monday Night Football game.
By cabravesfan
November 11, 2008 12:11 AM | Link to this
DOB
as a life long 49ers fan “amazing” is not the word that comes to mind…
By kirknga
November 11, 2008 12:19 AM | Link to this
Steve Oh
If Atlanta and Chicago are the frontrunners and Towers says the Atlanta offer is beeter for our team than the Cubs, what’s to stop him from saying I’d rather play in Chicago?
I guess we just differ who has the power when a player has a no-trade clause.
I don’t see any risk to him at all. He draws the same salary whether he stays in San Diego or consents to a trade to another team.
At this point he knows full well the Cubs and other teams have made offers. He could force the Padres to pick the best offer from the winning teams, or he could configure his list to include only winning teams. In fact, I think Atlanta is the only team on his list that doesn’t have a winning record. He could say,” LA, Chicago, or St. Louis, pick from that list only.”
But you could be right, he could say Atlanta no matter what.
By Rob
November 11, 2008 12:19 AM | Link to this
im just happy about my dolphins. :) I still have play-off dreams….
By Rob
November 11, 2008 12:19 AM | Link to this
im just happy about my dolphins. :) I still have play-off dreams….
By David O'Brien
November 11, 2008 12:20 AM | Link to this
Anyone watching the MNF highlights on ESPN? Are we certain that Stuart Scott is sober?
By Saltywoody
November 11, 2008 12:21 AM | Link to this
Seriously, you give the ball to Michael Robinson to try and win the game?
Well, yeah. I guess I understand. It’s not like you’ve got a dominant, pro-bowl running back.
Oh, wait…
By Saltywoody
November 11, 2008 12:23 AM | Link to this
This is really budget post-game coverage, too, with the fans screaming drunkenly in the background and drowning out a mumbling Stuart Scott, Emmitt Smith, and Steve Young. Kinda weird, especially with the weird cuts between highlights and ow Kurt Warner in a sleeveless top next to the suits.
They need to wrap this up.
By David O'Brien
November 11, 2008 12:28 AM | Link to this
Steve from OH: I’ll admit, I don’t even know who Steve Gilbert is. But I can tell you I’m just not into the tech-whiz guitarists guys who don’t write and/or sing great songs. Does nothing for me. Different strokes. You probably don’t like Waylon Jennings, right? Or Social Distortion? The Replacements? Different strokes. I’m not into the likes of Steve Vai, though I do appreciate how great a technical guitar player he is.
By Saltywoody
November 11, 2008 12:32 AM | Link to this
This whole thing is now turning from weird to bizarre.
Does it seem to anyone else like Mike Singletary is now going to cry?
By cabravesfan
November 11, 2008 12:32 AM | Link to this
Seriously, you give the ball to Michael Robinson to try and win the game? Well, yeah. I guess I understand. It’s not like you’ve got a dominant, pro-bowl running back.
Welcome to the world of the die hard 49er fan…I’m trying not to cry right now
By David O'Brien
November 11, 2008 12:36 AM | Link to this
Saltywoody, agreed: That was brutal, that postgame “show” or whatever ESPN would prefer to call it. GMC might be checking the fine print on its sponsorship agreement, to see if there’s an out clause.
By Saltywoody
November 11, 2008 12:42 AM | Link to this
cabravesfan
I grew up in the northeast and always hated the Boston/New York rivalry. So I opted out and started liking the Braves because of TBS and the 49ers because of Jerry Rice.
For a while, it was so redeeming to be a fan of both teams.
Now it’s just tough. It’s like Bill Clinton said, “I feel your pain.”
By Saltywoody
November 11, 2008 12:47 AM | Link to this
Kurt Warner definitely appears somewhere in the “after” photo of an orthodontist’s veneers portfolio.
Those babies are like chicklet mouthpiece.
By mitchie-san
November 11, 2008 12:48 AM | Link to this
DOB I cant wait to see the other islands. I keep hearing thats the thing to do. There is an Air Force Base not too far away from here that has a “military Only” area. They do open it up on the weekends to the public, but during the week it is private and absolutlely gorgeous…
Oh, and no, I dont think the Nats will get Tex, but I do think they will try.
By Saltywoody
November 11, 2008 12:52 AM | Link to this
Since we’re on the subject of the niners, I’ve got a funny story.
I drove down to Santana Row in San Jose with my ex this summer and we walked around for a while. We noticed a ridiculous looking Lamborghini parked front and center and wondered whose it was.
A little while later, I duck into a shoe store to look at running shoes and my ex stays outside. I emerge a few minutes after, and none other than Patrick Willis is standing there hitting on her.
He walks away and I ask her what he said. She responds, “He asked me if I wanted to back to his place with him.” I guess that’s how you roll if you’re a star MLB that had like 400 tackles your rookie season.
And, of course, later we’re walking by the Lamborghini again and Patrick Willis is getting into the driver’s seat.
How’s a guy supposed to compete with that?
By cabravesfan
November 11, 2008 12:52 AM | Link to this
saltywood
The fact that they were both so good for so long (1995 was a great year) makes this even more painful…
By Train
November 11, 2008 1:06 AM | Link to this
Sometimes I think I’m the only cab on the road
By geauxbraves2000
November 11, 2008 1:32 AM | Link to this
I love this blog - “Your And Idiot” - “Go VORP yourself”…great stuff :)
I’ve seen the VORP comment before, so maybe I’m just sleep deprived, but I got quite a laugh out of it tonight. It was a stressful day today, so I needed that.
Geaux Braves!!
By N8
November 11, 2008 1:49 AM | Link to this
Steve From OH & DOB
My guess is the Paul Gilbert isn’t up DOB’s alley. Though for the shredder that he was in the 80’s and early 90’s, the dude has some tastefully, soulful stuff no doubt.
Another guy that falls into that category is Richie Kotzen. His solo stuff is pretty bluesy (in a heavy metal kind of way), and his voice is almost as cool as his axe work.
Don’t let the fact that Gilbert played with Mr. Big or that Kotzen played on a Poison album (before getting the boot for banging one of his band members girl), down play their ability.
Similarily to Vai playing on a Whitesnake album, it doesn’t diminish their abilities, IMO, as guitar players that definitely write their own tunes.
Even the truely original and guys that are considered to be musicians “musicians” have to pay bills too.
Then you got guys like Keith Urban, who for the most part are pop guys that write catchy tunes but call it country. But what the average joe doesn’t realize about Keith Urban (love him or hate him - I choose to dislike him for choosing Nicole Kidman as his “mate”), is that the dude was a MONSTER session player for years.
I got a buddy who plays bass, who has done session work for jingles and various artists in the Minneapolis area for almost a decade now, and those guys get ZERO street cred or public praise.
But believe me, when you get a reputation for being relyable, on time and available as a session/studio guy putting food on the table is never an issue.
If I’m not mistaking, Sherly Crow started off as a backup singer for Jacko in the late 80’s, early 90’s. That doesn’t make her any more cool or relevant than the next song writer/pop star, but as much of a FREAK SHOW that Michael Jackson has become, you’ve got to be pretty damn talented to get that gig.
Another guy from the 80’s that gets ZERO credit and gets trashed to no end (and it’s justified due to his pink spandex) is Kip Winger. Dude played on two Alice Cooper discs I believe, and was another “gun” for hire in the 80’s for various recording studios.
Both him and Urban are truely talented musicians who happened to sell their souls to be pop stars.
Does anybody out there that lives in the Atlanta area know anything about the band 7 Sharp 9?
Another buddy from my neck of the woods started that band in the Atlanta area about a decade ago, and has had some relative local success? Pretty cool tunes (maybe I’m biased for knowing the guy), but I haven’t heard from him in a few years. Not sure what clubs they play in, but last time I checked the website out, it looks like they play pretty much every week in that neck of the woods at various venues.
By Kevin13
November 11, 2008 1:50 AM | Link to this
God, I live in the Bay Area and I already know the local media is going to have a field day with the 49ers’ game. How terrible can you be? They throw a pick with under 3:30 left in Arizona territory, get the ball back, get down to the two yard line with a littler under a minute left and completely fall apart. Takes them an extra 10 seconds then it should to spike the ball and then they run two terrible running plays. An inside dive with your second back to end the game? God they are painful to watch. Between them, the Braves, and the Warriors I’m having years taken off my life.
By Coach (Skip and Pete will be missed)
November 11, 2008 2:00 AM | Link to this
Yes Sir, that was an ugly and exciting end to Monday nights football game. Is it my imagination or did the Cardinals QB look awful? Yea, he did. Kurt Warner looked great. The old man can still fling it.
As for the post game show on ESPN , YES, it was brutal, unrehearsed and on the fly. Kurt Warner was the most intelligible guy behind the mike.
But I’m still not sure as to whether or not the Forty-Niners won it or if the Cardinals gave the game away.
Not that Josh Willingham and Scott Olsen are all that great or anything, but I think the N.L. East is going to be just a bit tougher next year.
Just thought I would get this very special day off on the right foot by wishing all my fellow brothers and sisters in arms around the globe, God speed, you all make America proud.
By gotigers72
November 11, 2008 3:23 AM | Link to this
After that earlier evaluation of T. Flowers by Sandberg and Rocket Wheeler, I’m sure happy not to see his name being mentioned in any trade rumors lately. The Braves aren’t exactly loaded with possible catcher prospects at the moment. If I’m not mistaken, Flowers was one of the players mentioned often in the earlier Peavy rumors.
By ncscoots
November 11, 2008 7:06 AM | Link to this
For once, I’ll give Coach a tip o’ the hat, and concur with his 2:00 post. Lots of vets on this blog, though you mostly find out that little factoid by accident. Not a lot of chest-thumping in that area. They know who they are, they know what they have done, and that self-knowledge is all that counts.
But, today is a day that I don’t think any of them will mind getting a figurative hand-shake and back-slap, if you’re so inclined. Beer is also good, if you’re in a buying mood and know a couple personally.
Because, despite economic malaise and foreign entanglements and everything else that we might find wrong about our country, we have produced, and still produce, men and women of the highest caliber of character, willing to make the greatest sacrifice to defend it. And, bubba, as long as you got that going for you, everything else will work out.
So, a moment to reflect on folks who have made it possible to worry about Peavy and Escobar might fit your agenda today. Hope so.
By Salty
November 11, 2008 7:42 AM | Link to this
How’s a guy supposed to compete with that? Saltywoody…you’re doing something right…she left with you!!! LOL!
Scoots and Coach….right on!
DOB…re: Stuart Scott and being sober…would we know? The guy’s…uhm…different.
By justdoit
November 11, 2008 8:40 AM | Link to this
i think the braves should have made an offer for olsen and JW - could of had two pretty good players for none of our top prospects and they would have still left the braves with plenty of money to get two more pitchers (one being peavy) and a ss. - but what do i know?
By Braveheart
November 11, 2008 8:46 AM | Link to this
Braveheart: Perhaps I missed something, or read it wrong. You posted: Hudson: 96 runs above average, 219 runs above replacement, 43.7 runs above replacement average a season. eavy: 118 runs above average, 226 runs above replacement, 45.1 runs above replacement average a season. In the five seasons before they became Braves, Jake wasn’t better than Huddie. But looking at those numbers, Peavy was better than Hudson, or am I reading your values incorrectly?
After looking at those numbers, how did you come to the conclusion that Jake was better than Hudson? I noticed how you were slick there and deleted the innings thrown numbers I had mentioned. Very slick. Jake threw about 140 less innings than Hudson in the five seasons before they became Braves.
Sorry dude but that matters because you want your ace to give you innings. When your ace gives you innings, he gives you value and more wins. Don’t know whether his issue was health or the love of the almighty strikeout cutting his innings down. Doesn’t really matter because Jake gave about 28 less innings a season than Hudson.
While Jake was arguably more outstanding in the limited innings he threw, Hudson was nevertheless just as valuable because of the value he accrued by throwing more innings. And if you’re gonna tell me that the numbers I used mean Jake was better than Hudson, I gotta ask how you figure? 226 runs in relation to 219? 45.1 to 43.7? That’s a difference significant enough to you to declare one definitively more valuable? Whatever. Justify the trade however you want but Jake wasn’t better than Timmy before they became Braves.
Also, Peavy had a Cy Young in that time.
Who cares? Barry Zito and Bartolo Colon have Cy Youngs. It’s done no one any good lately.
In addition to that, Peavy had a 9.38 K/9 compared to Hudson’s 6.25 K/9. Peavy had a 1.138 WHIP compared to Hudson’s 1.207 WHIP. In fewer innings pitched Peavy struck out 243 more batters. It appears to me that Peavy is better than Hudson over that five year span you analyzed.
Seriously, dude, a 1.14 WHIP and a 1.21 WHIP aren’t significantly different from one another to declare the other the decisively better guy.
Hudson hasn’t really been outstanding since he became a Brave. Just merely very good. Hudson, however, has a career ERA+ of 126. Jake, who you falsely believe to be so superior to Hudson, has a career ERA+ of 120. If he’s so much better and is in the middle of a dominating stage of his career, why is his ERA+ less than a guy who’s been in a relative decline for the last five years?
As for K9 rates, there’s more that goes into examining two pitchers. K9, BB9, LD%, GB rates, FB rates, HR/FB rates, K/BB ratios, LOB rate. Have you looked at this dude’s HR/FB when the San Diego air isn’t knocking the homers down?
Also forgot to mention, Hudson was two years older than Peavy when he came to Atlanta (27 vs 29)
Hudson’s first season as a Brave was his age 29 season. Jake’s first season as a Brave will be his age 28 season. You’re stretching things. While Hudson had health concerns, they weren’t nearly as much as they are with Jake.
By DAP
November 11, 2008 8:48 AM | Link to this
bubdylan for every manny, bonds and boras, there is an aaron, clemente, and gehrig.
the others cause controversy so it seems like they “finish first”. but really, getting more attention isnt what what id call finishing first.
its interesting that the saying oringinated with baseball, i didnt know that. but its still not really true.
By Maclee31
November 11, 2008 8:56 AM | Link to this
New from Rosenthal: Braves to Padres: “Let’s go”
(http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8781096/Big-Unit’s-days-with-D-backs-could-be-numbered)
*The Braves are getting fed up.
After trying for more than a month to acquire Padres right-hander Jake Peavy, the team is beginning to explore other options, major-league sources say.
The Braves would still take Peavy, mind you. But they have informed the Padres that they could shift course rapidly once the free-agent market opens on Friday.
The Padres regrouped Monday and sent revised proposals to both the Braves and Cubs, according to one source. Officials from both teams, however, insist that their offers are not likely to change.
The party line from the Padres is that they are in no hurry to move Peavy and will keep him if they do not receive the right combination of players.
Others, however, speculate that the Padres’ front office might be in disarray — speculation that only figures to gain momentum now that the team is parting with Hoffman.
Owner John Moores is going through a divorce and could sell the club. Club president Sandy Alderson says the payroll could be as low as $40 million. The front office, frequently described as “top heavy,” includes a wide range of opinions.
Then again, in the case of Peavy, the Padres might simply be waiting to the last possible moment to make the best possible deal.
The risk in that strategy is that it might cost them the players the Braves are willing to trade for Peavy — shortstop Yunel Escobar, either right-hander Charlie Morton or left-hander Jo Jo Reyes and either center fielder Gorkys Hernandez or Jordan Schaefer.
The Cubs might be offering a more established pitcher, left-hander Sean Marshall and perhaps a top prospect of their own, Class A third baseman Josh Vitters. But Escobar likely is the best player in either team’s proposal, and the Cubs cannot give the Padres a center fielder as promising as Hernandez or Schaefer.
Still, the Padres obviously are intrigued by the Cubs’ package; otherwise, they already would have traded Peavy to the Braves.*
By DAP
November 11, 2008 8:58 AM | Link to this
by the way, bubdylan, i did look up some leo durocher quotes. he also said this “I never did say that you can’t be a nice guy and win.” so there you go.
By DAP
November 11, 2008 9:00 AM | Link to this
much respect and graditude to our veterans today. especially my father and both gradfathers.
By Voice from the past
November 11, 2008 9:01 AM | Link to this
I think (I hope) their standards are a little higher than Olsen and Willingham. I know my expectations are higher.
By Maclee31
November 11, 2008 9:03 AM | Link to this
Rosenthal Braves to Padres: “Let’s go”
(http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8781096/Big-Unit’s-days-with-D-backs-could-be-numbered)
*The Braves are getting fed up.
After trying for more than a month to acquire Padres right-hander Jake Peavy, the team is beginning to explore other options, major-league sources say.
The Braves would still take Peavy, mind you. But they have informed the Padres that they could shift course rapidly once the free-agent market opens on Friday.
The Padres regrouped Monday and sent revised proposals to both the Braves and Cubs, according to one source. Officials from both teams, however, insist that their offers are not likely to change.
The party line from the Padres is that they are in no hurry to move Peavy and will keep him if they do not receive the right combination of players.
Others, however, speculate that the Padres’ front office might be in disarray — speculation that only figures to gain momentum now that the team is parting with Hoffman.
Owner John Moores is going through a divorce and could sell the club. Club president Sandy Alderson says the payroll could be as low as $40 million. The front office, frequently described as “top heavy,” includes a wide range of opinions.
Then again, in the case of Peavy, the Padres might simply be waiting to the last possible moment to make the best possible deal.
The risk in that strategy is that it might cost them the players the Braves are willing to trade for Peavy — shortstop Yunel Escobar, either right-hander Charlie Morton or left-hander Jo Jo Reyes and either center fielder Gorkys Hernandez or Jordan Schaefer.
The Cubs might be offering a more established pitcher, left-hander Sean Marshall and perhaps a top prospect of their own, Class A third baseman Josh Vitters. But Escobar likely is the best player in either team’s proposal, and the Cubs cannot give the Padres a center fielder as promising as Hernandez or Schaefer.
Still, the Padres obviously are intrigued by the Cubs’ package; otherwise, they already would have traded Peavy to the Braves.*
By Steve from OH
November 11, 2008 9:20 AM | Link to this
DOB, I’m just throwin’ it out there in case you were willing to check it out, that’s all, because I know your tastes are pretty varied. I wouldn’t have said anything if it was an instrumental album, you know.
By Braveheart
November 11, 2008 9:23 AM | Link to this
But the question I have is along the lines of KC’s post: If you already had Peavy, would you trade him for Yunel? It seems to me you value Yunel more than Peavy.
No, I wouldn’t trade Jake for Yunel. I also wouldn’t trade Yunel for Jake either. I want both and don’t see why we can’t have both with the way this nonexistent market has gone. The way I see it there’s no offer out there anywhere close in value. Why are we so significantly outbidding the next highest bidder? I’m not even sure there is a next highest bidder.
Why are we the only team out there with known offer terms? Does this not strike anyone else as odd, considering the long history of the Braves being silent on trade talks? Why then are we the ones out there with our johnsons (or escobars) in the wind with the whole world knowing what we are willing to give? Seems like we may have played our hand a bit too early and too strongly, anticipating the development of a market that has never materialized.
Doesn’t matter what Towers wants. Matters who has the leverage. Towers isn’t the one with the leverage. The Braves are.
Just as Towers wants the world back for Jake, District Attorneys rightly want child molesters to get the rest of their life in prison (hell, if they were legally and constitutionally allowed to kill ‘em, there would be no killing method too cruel or unusual inflicted on a child molester. They’d kill ‘em sooner and more brutally than they’d even kill a serial killer).
Whether the DA gives the child molester life or not however has nothing to do with the desires of the D.A. It matters which side of the table has the leverage. Some of the most guilty child molesters get acquitted or only get three years in prison while some of the least or not guilty get life + 20 years in prison.
There’s rarely any such thing as getting or giving your fair or just due. It’s all reliant on the leverage and how and when the hand is played.
The good thing though is that the more Towers begs the Court for continuances, the stronger Wren’s leverage becomes. By the end of this week, it will be sheet or get off the crown time for Towers just like eventually cases can’t be continued by attorneys forever. Eventually a trial has to be conducted. When it comes time for it to be conducted here, will Towers settle for only getting half value, now knowing he can’t get full value and knowing he might get stuck with little or no value and a ticked off boss and clientele if he makes no deal at all and takes the thing to trial (FA period)?
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 11, 2008 9:23 AM | Link to this
The Padres are starting to tick me off a little bit. I cann understand them wanting to get a good deal, but sheesh! Just put up or shut up!
Ron in mobile—
I think Francoeur is definitely happy for Mac. He’s said so many times. Never gives the indication that he’s jealous.
LKS, JEB, Thrillhouse44—-
LOL! Good stuff.
By Braveheart
November 11, 2008 9:25 AM | Link to this
Don’t know how this all somewhat turned into a 10 vs. 31 argument. It’s a fun one though. However, when it comes to value and all time baseball discussions, Jake and Yunel are eating in the outhouse while 10 and 31 dine in the penthouse. 10 and 31 were twice as valuable in creating run differential than Yunel and about 1.5 times better than Jake. Let’s not insult the greatness of 10 and 31 by even daring to mention mere mortals like Jake and Yunel in the same breath with immortals like 10 and 31.
By Braveheart
November 11, 2008 9:31 AM | Link to this
Still, the Padres obviously are intrigued by the Cubs’ package; otherwise, they already would have traded Peavy to the Braves.
Oh, I think that’s bull. Towers is greedy and wants Hanson. He’s not intrigued by what the Cubs are selling. Towers is faking that orgasm with the Cubs like Meg Ryan in a diner, trying to get Wren to punk out and hand over Hanson. Hopefully, greed is not good and Towers doesn’t get Escobar or Hanson. But this delay is all about Hanson. Let’s not believe for a second this has anything to do with any intrigue with what the Cubs are offering.
By FaninFaytown
November 11, 2008 9:43 AM | Link to this
Wouldn’t it be something if we find out soon the cubs are just to make us give up more and then mr. towers waits just a little big too long and FW pulls esco out of the deal and he is still forced to pull the trigger with peavy. Highly unlikely that happens but we will soon see just how shrewd wren can be.
By BB FAN
November 11, 2008 9:45 AM | Link to this
I think the Braves really missed out by not trying to acquire Scott Olsen. The prospects sent to Florida are supposedly not in the Nats top 10. The Braves could have easily matched that offer. That would have given the Braves one of the two pitchers they need. He’s a young guy who has increased his innings pitched over the last 3 years to over 200 this year. It would have been a solid start to the off season.
Willingham could have been the Braves 4th outfielder. If not, trade him for anything possible.
I look at Olsen as a solid number 3 starter with potential to be a very good number 2. And he won’t make alot this year as I believe this would be his first year of arbitration. I know the issues he has had but he still has gone out and pitched and pitched well considering he has been on the Marlins team with horrible infield defense.
I think Wren has waited around long enough for Peavy. He should definitely look at other possibilities. It’s not like Peavy is that workhorse who goes out and pitches 230-240 innings every year. He may have one Cy Young award, but I have a bad feeling about his many injuries over the years. Every year, he has something wrong with him. A team should not overpay both in money and players for a guy like that.
Don’t get me wrong, he is a great talent and has done well. He would be a great acquisition but not for players rumored to be included because of the injury history.
By Efrim
November 11, 2008 9:47 AM | Link to this
Braveheart
I agree with your 9:31. I understand that the Padres have a right to hold onto Peavy for as long as they want, but damn, is that a risky move or what? They really should pull the trigger on one of these deals before this Friday when free agency starts.
By BB FAN
November 11, 2008 9:55 AM | Link to this
Braveheart
I agree with your post from 9:31 AM. The rumored players from the Cubs do not compare to what the Braves have offered. Wren need to pull back and say Sorry, but we have decided we will not be trading Escobar. And offer Gorkys, JoJo and Morton…Take it or leave it.
By robert
November 11, 2008 10:04 AM | Link to this
I wonder if we won’t trade Escobar.
By RC
November 11, 2008 10:10 AM | Link to this
After seeing how terribly the SD front office handled the situation with Trevor Hoffmann, I am really worried they are going to screw up this Peavy deal as well and he’ll end up with a team other than the Braves for a lessor package of players (kind of like the Twins last year with Santana).
By Billy Walsh
November 11, 2008 10:13 AM | Link to this
Olsen as a No. 2 man? He cant crack 90, walks the ball park, gave up 30 home runs last year, and has never posted an era below 4. What gives you the indication that he can be a solid no.2 guy or a 3 for that matter. Jon Lester, Ryan Dempster, Dan Haren, Rich Harden, Dice K are all No.2 type starters.We already have a Scott Olsen his name is Chuck James.
By 18 Wheels of Love
November 11, 2008 10:14 AM | Link to this
Peavy is that good of a fit for us, hence Wren’s patience. I would like to see him hold their feet to the fire a little more but with their front office in disarray, it could completely backfire on us and they could move on with the Cubs. Let’s just hope it is over soon and we can move on the FA market and other trades. And this talk that they might keep Peavy is complete BS…you don’t make comments like ‘the train has left the station’ and then keep the guy, plus, they have to reduce payroll.
If I were a betting man, I would say Escobar gets dealt for Peavy by Friday and we immediately sign Orlando Cabrera.
By RC
November 11, 2008 10:17 AM | Link to this
BB Fan, Peavy’s innings the three years prior to 2008: 203, 202, 223. I’d say those are workhorse innings, and even last year with an injury he topped 173, which was only topped on the Braves by Jurrjiens, with 188. Peavy is a workhorse.
By RC
November 11, 2008 10:17 AM | Link to this
BB Fan, Peavy’s innings the three years prior to 2008: 203, 202, 223. I’d say those are workhorse innings, and even last year with an injury he topped 173, which was only topped on the Braves by Jurrjiens, with 188. Peavy is a workhorse.
By DAP
November 11, 2008 10:20 AM | Link to this
billy walsh i think olsen throws harder than that, but youve got a good point.
By DAP
November 11, 2008 10:26 AM | Link to this
18 wheels of love I would say Escobar gets dealt for Peavy by Friday and we immediately sign Orlando Cabrera.
i hope not…cabrera is a good defender but i think he will want enough money that his offense is going to be insufficeient. if he would sign for maybe $6-7mil it would be ok. but i dont think he will.
By DAP
November 11, 2008 10:32 AM | Link to this
id rather have renteria than cabrera. his defense is a problem, but offensivly, he has one of his worst years, and it was about the same as cabrera’s. renteria is one year removed from finishing third in a batting title race, and being one of the best hitting SS in baseball.
when renteria was here, i remember his defense not being spectacular, but still being ok. id take his bat even if hes a little slower on defense. especailly over cabrera.
By Lew
November 11, 2008 10:41 AM | Link to this
Billy Walsh-Dude, I see the point you’re making and don’t disagree, but Chuck James DID post a sub 4.00 ERA in 06.
By David O'Brien
November 11, 2008 10:48 AM | Link to this
Billy Walsh, 18 Wheels of Love, RC: I think you guys provided some voices of reason (10:13 to 10:17) after the group seems to be getting a bit too impatient and letting emotion color the argument.
People, facts are facts: Peavy is 27 and had ERAs of 2.88 or lower in four of the past five seasons, including three consecutive seasons or 200 or more innings before missing a month in 2008 with a strained elbow.
He’s already the Padres’ career strikeouts leader and he’s signed to an affordable contract worth $59 million over the next four seasons, plus a $22 million option in 2013 or $4 million buyout.
He was a unanimous choice — unanimous — for the 2007 Cy Young Award. And his MRI when he went on the DL showed no ligament damage.
Now, twist the numbers any way you want, but Peavy’s an elite pitcher. And yes, Hudson was comparable in the five years before Huddy came to the Braves. Peavy had slightly better overall numbers, but the huge difference: The CONTRACT, folks.
Huddy was going to be a free agent a year after the trade, and had issued a deadline of March 1 to get an extension done or said he wouldn’t negotiate during the season.
Peavy is signed for four more years with an option for a fifth. To a deal the Braves couldn’t offer a comparable free-agent pitcher and even expect to be among the highest bidders.
And while I agree the Braves’ offer is better than the Cubs’, it’s also wrong to dismiss an offer that includes left-hander Sean Marshall, the best pitcher being offered to the Padres by anyone.
(And before Braveheart says we don’t absolutely know that Marshall’s been offered, well, you don’t absolutely know that Escobar’s been offered, either. It’s not as if the teams have passed out copies of their proposals for us writers to consider. We’re all using sources and trusting that they’re telling us the truth.)
By cardvol
November 11, 2008 10:48 AM | Link to this
ESPN says the Braves and Padres have agreed upon Escobar and Hernandez. The stickling point seems to be the fourth player - Padres want Locke.
By Braveheart
November 11, 2008 10:49 AM | Link to this
BB Fan, Peavy’s innings the three years prior to 2008: 203, 202, 223. I’d say those are workhorse innings, and even last year with an injury he topped 173, which was only topped on the Braves by Jurrjiens, with 188. Peavy is a workhorse.
True elite workhorse aces give you 220 innings. Over the last six years, he has averaged 194 innings, over the last five years, he has averaged 194 innings, over the last four years, he has averaged 201 innings; over the last three years, he has averaged 200 innings; over the last 2 years, he has averaged 199 innings; last season he threw 174 innings. He’s more of a racehorse than a workhorse.
You need 225 out of your ace, 215 out of your #2, 200 out of your #3, 180 innings out of your #4, and 140 innings out of your #5 starters. That gives you 960 innings by the starters and 500 to be thrown by the pen.
Doesn’t mean I don’t want him but his lack of innings eating does diminish his value a bit.
By Lew
November 11, 2008 10:52 AM | Link to this
I wouldn’t mind giving Edgar Renteria a shot IF the price were right. It seems to me, like DAP says, that he’s only a year removed from a .330 BA and a career year. It’s not like he’s been injured and after two terrible AL seasons, that maybe the AL is just not working for him-maybe he’s just not as familiar with the pitchers, or some such thing.
AS for his defense-NO his range is not great and his arm is average, but he DOES make the plays he should and is hardly a terrible defensive player. Compared to Yunel’s defense? No way. But the Dude is steady. From all reports he’s great in the clubhouse and I’m betting he can still hit .290.
If he will sign for a year or so at a good cheap rate, I’d say go for it. However, I’m thinking he’ll still be too expensive for our budget. We DO still have to get that outfield paragon and sign a LHRP.
By David O'Brien
November 11, 2008 10:56 AM | Link to this
Maclee, Ken Rosenthal’s absolutely correct in that report, regarding Braves’ getting tired of waiting. Braves made decision over the weekend that if the Peavy deal’s not done this week, they were going to go full speed with other proposals come Friday, when they can make offer to other free agent pitchers.
Still no resolution on any of the Braves’ three free key free agents, Ohman, Norton and Hampton. Ohman and Norton are likely to file by the Thursday deadline, rather than sign with the Braves by then.
Hampton has already filed and wants to see what offers he gets, preferably one from a team closer to his new Arizona home so he can spend more time with his kids. He’s going through a divorce that’ll be final in January. But he hasn’t rule out a return to Atlanta whatsoever, because he liked it so much, the teammates and Cox and McDowell. Just wants to be closer to home, if possible.
By Nate
November 11, 2008 10:57 AM | Link to this
Anybody who’s seen Rich Harden pitch when he’s healthy knows he’s not a #2 starter. He’s obviously missed a lot of time with injuries, but when he’s healthy he’s as good as anybody in baseball.
By N8
November 11, 2008 10:57 AM | Link to this
Braveheart
Agree with your 9:31 completely. Towers is getting greedy.
Which is why NOW Is the time to for Wren to call BS, and then wait it out.
If Wren were to turn around and trade KJ to the Cards for Ludwick (or a similar type of move), and then sign a FA pitcher (or two), he could wait it out and possibly get Peavy for LESS than Escobar.
By standing pat in saying that he truely wasn’t lying when he said that he wasn’t going to trade BOTH middle infielders this off-season.
I’ve been saying it for a week. Time to call his bluff.
I’m just glad to here that Wren has allegedly sent the message that he plans on possibly moving on, when Friday’s “open season” on free agents begins.
Good for him.
On the flip side, if Wren caves and gives up Hanson for Peavy, he should be FIRED on the spot, and maybe even b!tch-slapped by JS at the press-conference. LOL!
By Lew
November 11, 2008 11:08 AM | Link to this
As an addition to my Renteria post-I also wouldn’t bet on the Braves paying ANY shortstop in 09, $10 million like so many here seem to think. You just can’t fit it into the budget unless Wren can get an outfielder for a lot less (read Free) than I think he can that fits the power criteria.
Stop and think-Peavy will cost an average of about $15 mil per season (yes, I realize he’s a bit cheaper in 09). We will likely pay another $15 or more for a good Free Agent second pitcher. That totals $30 mil or a bit more. Add $10 mil for a shortstop and our money is gone, leaving an outfielder, a LHRP and arbitration increases unfunded.
By Billy Walsh
November 11, 2008 11:12 AM | Link to this
Harden is never healthy. Anyone who has seen Mark Prior or Kerry Wood pitch when healthy knows he can be a no.1 type starter too. That is one of the biggest reasons why elite starting pitchers are so hard to come by and why it usually costs multiple stud prospects or 25 mill + to acquire one.
By David O'Brien
November 11, 2008 11:17 AM | Link to this
Lew, you (and I, or anyone else outside the organization) even knows how much money the Braves have to spend. I’ve written that it’s at least $40 mill, but I’ve also written that it could be closer to $50 mill. Braves just won’t say.
But if it’s $50 mil, you can see where it’s pretty much pointless for all the many computations people have been making here, as if the $40 mill figure is exactly correct when no one ever said it was.
By Patrick
November 11, 2008 11:19 AM | Link to this
DOB,
Do you think the Braves impatience will give the Pads a bad taste in their mouth towards them? Or do you get the feeling the Cubs are as demanding to get a resolution from Towers?
By Dadgum
November 11, 2008 11:19 AM | Link to this
Here is something to ponder.
In going over an article by Tom Krasovic(?)online it appears that Jake Peavy is playing some hardball with San Diego in the impending Braves trade. The underlying theme is that Peavy does not want to come to Atlanta unless Escobar plays SS.
So he may be saying to San Diego “just exactly how bad do you want to trade me”. Very interesting take. Playing his own team against itself. Basically he and his agent Aklerose are orchestrating the trade via the no-trade portion of the contract.
The Padres are cost-cutting for many reasons. They may go up for sale soon. This could be a situation where trimming a 63mil contract is more attractive than what you get in return. With Greene at SS(8 errors in ‘08) they may not need a Escobar on a team capable of losing 100 games in ‘09. Perhaps, just perhaps, the Braves will get this done without losing Escobar. If this happens we all should thank Jake Peavy first then Wren. Oh yeah and the fact San Diego is trying to operate on a 50 mil budget next year and are one of the worst franchises around. San Diego is not dealing from a strong position and many view Towers as a poor trade negotiator.
I think the Cubs are out of this race and may not have really been seriously in it. Peavy may very well remain in San Diego unless he sees that the Braves can keep Escobar or have a Furcal type ready to sign this week.
Again this is just another view of the situation which is kinda running under the radar or at least I haven’t seen it mentioned. The fact I got it off the San Diego site and others were blogging about it and the fact no trade has yet occured means it could have about 1% of credence.
Hey, not saying this is what is going down, not close, only being a denizen messenger but I have read crazier stuff here and since almost every single scenario has been hashed and rehashed to death I kind of like this one.
Rock on…….the idea of keeping Escobar at SS now I know that will please Lew and a hell of a lot of others..
By Jim
November 11, 2008 11:25 AM | Link to this
Escobar, Hernandez, and Morton or Locke is enough for Peavy. The Braves should limit the deal to Morton OR Locke but not both, and Wren should tell Towers to make the deal by the weekend or the offer is off the table! I’m not convinced that the Padres don’t get the better deal with either of the three they would be getting back. Wren needs to put some pressure on Towers to get the deal done!
Lew, Renteria may still hit for a decent average if he comes back to the NL, but 2007 was a career year, and I don’t think he will put up close to those kind of numbers again. More to the point, his defense is inadequate! His arm is not average, it is weak! His range is very limited and that limitation is magnified by the weak arm that doesn’t let him throw out the runner on balls in the hole that he gets to. A number of important outs are made at the plate by a strong relay from the SS. We won’t get those outs with Edgar at SS. If we need to pick up a FA SS, the first priority should be Cabrera.
By DAP
November 11, 2008 11:31 AM | Link to this
lew i think the $40mil estimate people have been using includes estimated arbitration raises, so i wouldnt worry about those.
money is one of the big reasons it would be so great to get ludwick. he is due arbitration, but he should still be making much less than other players with his numbers. having ludwick would clear money to fill possible holes at short, or 2B or to put more money toward another pitcher, ect.
By Lew
November 11, 2008 11:32 AM | Link to this
DOB-Just using it as the common point of departure, based on shed payroll that has pretty well been widely reported. Be that as it may, we DO know what Peavy would cost and likely what a Free Agent pitcher would cost. We also know about what some of the Shortstop possibilites would make (within reason) and what it would cost for someone of Ohman’s ilk. Even if it IS $50 mil, do we spend 1/5 of it on a SS, when we know the starting pitching is going to run around 3/5 of it?
Yes, I do realize that we don’t know diddly, but it’s all pretty much useless speculation here on the blog, when all is said and done, isn’t it? What the VORP, it’s all Monopoly Money anyway, right?
By BB FAN
November 11, 2008 11:35 AM | Link to this
Billy Walsh,
I said Olsen has the potential to be a very good number 2 starter. Keep in mind, he has pitched in front of a horrible defensive infield in Florida. That makes a lot of difference for a pitcher, especially a young guy. That’s why I think he would be a solid number 3 starter in 2009. And potential to be better. He would have a lot better defensive infield in Atlanta. Of course if they trade Escobar that defense is significantly weakened.
Anyway, it doesn’t matter, he is in Washington now.
RC,
I would not consider 203, 202, 223 and 174 innings pitched a workhorse pitcher. Peavy has had some kind of injury every year of his career except maybe 2007. The guy is not a workhorse. He is a very talented pitcher who has put up very good numbers for SD while pitching in Petco Park, which is probably the best pitcher’s park in MLB.
His home/road splits concern me as well. He has a 2.77 ERA at home and 3.80 ERA on the road/9.52 strike outs per 9 Innings at home and 8.32 on the road/ 47 HRs in 678 innings at home and 81 Hr in 583 innings on the road/195 BBs and 543 hits in 678 innings at home and 212 BBs and 546 hits in 583 innings on the road/ 6.58 innings per start at home and 6.07 innings per start on the road.
Every number is significantly worst on the road. You combine that with the injuries every year, and he is not a bonifide number 1 workhorse. I still would acquire him, but I would not include Escobar. It would be Gorkys, Morton and maybe JoJo.
By DAP
November 11, 2008 11:35 AM | Link to this
jim are you sure cabrera is that much better defensivly? as far as arm strength? i dont know as much about cabrera’s defense…i figure he has better range than edgar, but i doubt cabrera has the arm of escobar, either.
By Lew
November 11, 2008 11:36 AM | Link to this
JIm-Whatever Dude. Like I said, it’s all useless speculation, personal preference and totally uninformed one way or another. As for Edgar not hitting .330 again. I said I thought .290 was possible. Quite a difference. As for the defense-he had a terrible defensive season in Boston, yet did fine in Atlanta. Not great, but adequate.
By Braveheart
November 11, 2008 11:38 AM | Link to this
DOB, you’re right about not knowing for certain. However, it seems clear that Escobar, Gorkys, Charlie or JoJo and maybe Locke are the terms. Trustworthy sources like you and Buster and Rosenthal have made that clear for over a week now.
With the Cubs though, sometimes Marshall is mentioned, sometimes Felix, sometimes Cedeno, sometimes now Vitters. The terms are never certain.
Doesn’t that seem strange? The secretive Braves are for once all exposed while no one has nailed down a seemingly definitive offer out of the traditionally leaky vessel that is the Cubs? That tells me they ain’t got much to offer and a game is being played.
Now today Buster is saying the Cubs are trying to get a third team involved (that seems like an implicit admission by both Towers and the Cubs that the Cubs alone don’t have what the Braves have. If they had enough, why would they get another team involved? The Braves aren’t being asked to do that.)
Wren may have played his hand with Escobar too hard and too early but Towers blew that advantage because he was lusting too hard after Hanson. He can fake it with the Cubs all he wants but that ain’t going down in Chi town. The game is here. We’re the only team in this game.
When Towers finally realizes Hanson is truly untouchable, and tells Wren he’ll settle for Escobar, Wren should tell Towers he blew it just like Deniro told Stallone he blew it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co7cnnV0ppQ
By Dan
November 11, 2008 11:39 AM | Link to this
DOB
Who do you think has the better upside between Charlie and JoJo?
Personally, I like Charlie’s stuff better (although JoJo is left handed). Neither have been able to put it all together from a mental standpoint, but I think that Charlie’s upside is higher. Plus, Charlie was hurt the last part of the season, and it affected his velocity.
By DAP
November 11, 2008 11:42 AM | Link to this
someone pointed this out yesterday about the level of intrest in peavy…look at the cubs.com homepage, and see if you can find any mention of jake peavy. now look at the braves.com homepage. hes all over it. the only mention of peavy on the cubs page was last week’s mail bag, when someone asked about peavy, the writer kinda brushed it off, and then said the cubs’ priority was resigning thier own free agents, and then doing trades…talking about trades in a very general way. that sound like either the cubs arent all that active in these talks, or the writer for thier page doesnt have a clue. id find the last one hard to believe.
By Braves should sign Matt Ryan; he has an arm
November 11, 2008 11:46 AM | Link to this
Quite frankly, I’m starting to get sick of hearing about Peavy. He seems a prima-donna—a prima-donna with a potentially unhealthy arm. The Braves should sign Lowe and Burnett, resign Glavine, and make an offer for Adam Dunn. They will regret trading Escobar and/or Kelly Johnson…both of whom will be very solid, all-star caliber players, for the next 15 years.
Of course, I wonder why I even bother to care anymore. As long as the Braves are owned by disinterested ownership, they are not going to go anywhere, that’s just the bottom line.
By Iron Labrum
November 11, 2008 11:48 AM | Link to this
Buster Olney’s got an article up on ESPN.com about the state of the Peavy trade.
By Jim
November 11, 2008 11:51 AM | Link to this
I think trading KJ for Ludwick would be a mistake on the par of Cleveland trading Jeff Kent for Matt Williams. Williams never again put up the numbers he did in SF during the strike year, and Kent blossomed into an MVP player. I am not saying that KJ will become another Jeff Kent, but I think an average of 290+ with 50 doubles and triples and 15 HRs over the next 5 years is well within reason. I am also not saying that Ludwick is as good as Matt Williams was. Hitting in a lineup behind Pujols is an advantage that any hitter would relish. Kent was never a plus defender at 2B but he may end up in the Hall of Fame anyway.
By Lew
November 11, 2008 11:51 AM | Link to this
Dadgum-My whole concern on the Peavy deal is that I’m afraid he may have potential injury problems. I also believe, that if he remains healthy and my fears prove groundless (and of course, they COULD prove to be groundless), that he would help the Braves immensely. He would help not only with his own contributions, but were he on board, it might make signing someone like Lowe And Easier Task.
If it costs Yunel, then I’m not against the move, though I AM convinced of Yunel’s potential- moreso than some others here are. I’m certain Wren can handle finding a suitable replacement. I’m just not sure he would spend as much as it would cost for some of the possibilities mentioned (no matter the TRUE state of finances). Apparently many here disagree with me. I’m sure I’ll get over it or that they will if I’m proven correct. Hell, I’ve been wrong before and likely will be again. Been right once or twice, too.
By flbravesgirl
November 11, 2008 11:52 AM | Link to this
I’d say Braves’ fans are getting fed up too. Is Towers waiting for Santa to deliver Hanson with a big red bow on his head perhaps? This is moving at a glacial pace.
By THE BEAR
November 11, 2008 11:54 AM | Link to this
I totally agree with Billy Walsh about Scott Olsen. He is another Chuck James at best and the boy has an ATTITUDE a mile wide. I can’t imagine any team wanting him on their roster. Be happy the Braves didn’t get him.
By Anders
November 11, 2008 11:58 AM | Link to this
Efrim
From your 9:47 post:
I agree with your 9:31. I understand that the Padres have a right to hold onto Peavy for as long as they want, but damn, is that a risky move or what? They really should pull the trigger on one of these deals before this Friday when free agency starts.
Perhaps Towers is thinking once folks see the crazy numbers the Yanks and others start throwing around for FA pitchers, Peavy’s value may go up?
The Yanks are sitting on a pile of money and the Red Sox will have to react at some level as well and so on down the food chain.
You think Wren isn’t feeling the pressure? Who is available for him to sign cheaper than Peavy if he misses this deal? No one close to his value.
Great game of poker going on, but I don’t believe the Braves are as comfortable with walking away from the Peavy deal on their terms as they would like others to perceive. Apparently Towers feels that way as well or he would have taken the Braves deal already imo.
By Epinpehrine
November 11, 2008 12:02 PM | Link to this
So it sounds like we either get Peavy by the end of the week or move on. The Braves absolutely needed to set up a deadline here, and I’m glad they did. If we drop out, the aren’t going to get an attractive offer for the Cubs. Our offer on the table is better. I like where this is headed.
By Braveheart
November 11, 2008 12:11 PM | Link to this
Anders, you’re forgetting there is a very limited market. He has a no trade clause. No matters what goes down with free agents, there aren’t enough teams on his list with the goods to get the deal done. Once Friday comes and goes, the Braves will no longer have the same level of labor or monetary resources available for a trade. Towers has to know that. When you have a limited number of sources to get the goods from and most of them don’t have the goods you want or need, why are you gonna screw with the one source that has the goods? Why would you screw with that source of goods for so long that eventually they don’t have as many goods to give you?
By Shaun
November 11, 2008 12:11 PM | Link to this
Perhaps Towers is thinking once folks see the crazy numbers the Yanks and others start throwing around for FA pitchers, Peavy’s value may go up?
Anders, I’m pretty sure front office folks have an idea of what the going rate will be for top free agent starters. Therefor I think the interested teams and the Padres already have a good idea of Peavy’s value.
By richbrave
November 11, 2008 12:19 PM | Link to this
Hey, lets get OLSEN and that other guy. Yo NATS. No more speculation from this quarter. Waiting for the results. Envelope please. And the winner is…….
By David O'Brien
November 11, 2008 12:26 PM | Link to this
NEW BLOG (though pretty much same subject … hey, what else we gonna talk about. it is slightly huge, this potential trade.)
By Shaun
November 11, 2008 12:26 PM | Link to this
The brilliance of the BBWAA: The guy who finished fourth in the 2008 NL Rookie of the Year voting was NOT a rookie.
By MiamiBrave
November 11, 2008 12:28 PM | Link to this
Olney says the Braves and Padres are making progress, despite Ken Rosenthal’s report of Atlanta’s frustration. Olney says the Braves would send Yunel Escobar and Gorkys Hernandez to the Padres, plus Charlie Morton or Jo-Jo Reyes. They’re haggling over one last player, with the Padres eyeing southpaw Jeff Locke.
mlbtraderumors.com
By Dadgum
November 11, 2008 12:30 PM | Link to this
I hear ya’ Lew. We are kinda of the same thinking here.
The more I think about this whole trade scenario the more I am convincing myself that the Braves will keep Escobar. In fact I feel the Braves have pulled Esco off the table which is why the deal hasn’t happened. Peavy probably has told San Diego he ain’t going to Atlanta if Esco isn’t at SS.
Also it is very apparent that Hanson will be in the Braves rotation when opening day rolls around. The Braves I feel have convinced themselves so much of this fact that acquiring Peavy by giving up Escobar(and others) isn’t worth it. They can keep Escobar at SS and sign two free agents at the top of the rotation to pair with Jurrjens and Hanson and a 5th starter among Hampton or whomever.
I would now say that it is 50/50 that we get Peavy maybe less. My two cents only but you can bet your life we have Peavy by Thursday or a top free agent pitcher signed on Friday.
Rock on….this Peavy wait is getting real old real fast. I’m not drinking the Peavy kool-aid like I once was.
By David O'Brien
November 11, 2008 12:30 PM | Link to this
n going over an article by Tom Krasovic(?)online it appears that Jake Peavy is playing some hardball with San Diego in the impending Braves trade. The underlying theme is that Peavy does not want to come to Atlanta unless Escobar plays SS.Dadgum
If true, think of how silly that is. What’s to stop the Braves from trading for Peavy without Escobar in the deal, then turning around next week and trading Escobar in a deal for, say, Ludwick and a Cardinals prospect?
What, he expects the Braves to sign an agreement not to trade Escobar. That’d be dangerous ground, and can’t imagine them doing something like that.
By RC
November 11, 2008 12:32 PM | Link to this
BB Fan,
For the 2005, 2006, and 2007 seasons Peavy was 15th in MLB in innings pitched. You know who was 14th on the list? CC Sabathia. There was a 5 out difference in the number of innings they pitched over that 3 year span, so if innings are your indicator of a workhorse, you can’t include one and not include the other.
By Anders
November 11, 2008 12:33 PM | Link to this
Braveheart
Once Friday comes and goes, the Braves will no longer have the same level of labor or monetary resources available for a trade.
Why? Where is Wren going with his available money to get a Peavy deal? Peavy appears to be ,imo, the core of the Braves off season planning. Why would they move on to lesser issues before resolving this unless they can replace Peavy with another like pitcher? Those pitchers will cost a heck of a lot more as FA’s.
I agree that Towers doesn’t have eternal leverage but as long as the Cubs are in play he definetly has enough. If the Cubs sign a FA and bow out then Towers is in deep doo-doo. There’s the risk, not with the Braves.
By ccrider
November 11, 2008 12:33 PM | Link to this
GOOD NEWS! The Braves options are getting larger as we Blog! The various articles are reporting Ryan Dempster’s unhappiness in the Cubs offering a Kyle Louse type contract at $11 mil/4 years. He would basically be taking a discount from what he could get in free agency, while the Cubs pursue Peavy at $15+ per season. The Braves already have an “IN” with him from Frank Wren’s history with the Marlins. MORE GOOD NEWS; Kenshan Kawakami looks like he is about to head to MLB. He is a starter with stuff similar to Kuroda of the Dodgers. The Braves have been interested in him since he first announced he was thinking about coming to America. He would make a very good mid-rotation starter at a reasonable price $7 to $8 mil per season. EVEN MORE GOOD NEWS: The Arizona Diamondbacks are pleading poverty and asking Randy Johnson to take a huge paycut to return next season. Johnson made $15 million last season, Arizona offering $8 after a 3.91 era that was a little inflated from a early season minor injury and would probably require at least $12 to return. He is another excellent short term option for the Braves AND he would be going for his 300th victory which would help the Braves pay his salary in boosted attendence. All of these options give the Braves more opportunites to explore should the Padres drag this out much longer. Adding Randy Johnson for 1 year and Ryan Dempster plus Kawakami long term to go with Jurjjens, Hanson and Hudson could certainly, with a couple of other moves put us back into contention. PLUS THE BEST NEWS; ESCOBAR STILL AT SHORTSTOP!
By Salty
November 11, 2008 12:34 PM | Link to this
No-trade clause or not, if a club is willing to renegotiate Peavy’s contract, he may listen. That legitimizes Ander’s view that waiting a bit has merit. Of course, it can be a serious game of chicken, too, and Peavy can simply say, “I’m staying put…period”.
By chipperchop
November 11, 2008 12:40 PM | Link to this
Anders,
It is clear you are just hoping the Braves don’t pull this off. Frank Wren is not feeling any “pressure”. Would he like to get Peavy? Sure. But he has already made it clear that he isn’t dealing Hanson, and he has already made it clear that he is tired of Towers dragging his feet, and that he will start looking elsewhere if they are unable to do something soon.
This from a guy he got all butt hurt from Braves fans and Dave O’brien on a Braves blog, because some of the people here were getting tired of some of your posts. You are right. the Yankees do have alot of money coming off the books, and have made it clear that they are going to pursue the Tex’s and the Sabbathia’s and the Lowe’s. If I were you, I would hope that the Yankees do NOT get Peavy too, beause then how even more will the Mets be insignifacant in NY if the Yanks pull that off?
By dirtyfrank
November 11, 2008 12:45 PM | Link to this
Anders is right,
The Braves are putting all their eggs in one basket, and it isn’t even going to happen. Peavy is the one holding up the trade because he doesn’t WANT to play for the loser Braves. I predict the Braves wind up with Randy Wolfe, Livan Hernandez or Randy Johnson, there’s your two starters Atlanta, hope you can hold off the Nats for the cellar!!
By TennesseePaul
November 11, 2008 1:02 PM | Link to this
Braveheart: Pretty slick there buddy. I didn’t say significantly better. Just better. Unless I’m understanding your runs above replacement incorrectly, and maybe I am, but as I read it, 45 runs is better than 43 runs. Not significantly better, but better, which is different than saying Jake wasn’t better than Huddie.
I noticed how you were slick there and deleted the innings thrown numbers I had mentioned.
Yes. And I noticed as well that you only included the previous five years where Peavy has pitched 7 seasons so far (he came up at 21) and Hudson 6 (he came up at 23) prior to being acquired by the Braves. In the six years prior the difference in innings pitched was 77 innings in favor of Hudson. However, Peavy will easily catch him as Hudson will not be pitching for quite some time.
I want both and don’t see why we can’t have both
Yeah. I wouldn’t mind this either. Be great too if the Padres included cash with the deal while they’re at it. But I just think that to get something of value, something of value must be given up. And unfortunately, this might just be Yunel.
Why are we the only team out there with known offer terms
This is baffling as well. When JS ran the show no one knew what was going on or who might be traded. Now that Wren is in the chair, all the news is about town. It isn’t that fun. I liked the Christmas Day surpises that JS would bring. You’d just wake up one day and all the sudden Hudson was a Brave and all it cost was Chuck Thomas, a reliever and a minor leaguer.
At any rate, if Yunel is traded, I will not be weeping or gnashing my teeth. The club will continue. And it might actually do better having a solid pitching rotation in place.
But I see DOB covered my sentiments on this whole topic earlier so I’ll just leave it at that.