Home > Jay Bookman > Archives > 2008 > November > 18 > Entry
DEL.ICIO.USTime to abandon ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’ foolishness
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Back in 1993, a brash young president named Bill Clinton tried to force an important cultural change upon the U.S. military by requiring acceptance of gay men and women in uniform. The resulting controversy forced Clinton to back off that policy change and damaged his presidency, but it also helped bring the question of gay rights to the forefront of the national conversation.
A lot has changed since then. The military, like the rest of the nation, is now much more comfortable with gay Americans as a part of our national fabric. In 1993, only 44 percent of Americans supported letting gay people serve in the military; today, the number stands at 75 percent.
President-elect Barack Obama has said he wants to repeal the current “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy, but not by signing an executive order.
“I would not do it that way,” he said during the campaign. “The reason is because I want to make sure that when we reverse ‘don’t ask-don’t tell,’ it’s gone through a process and we’ve built a consensus or at least a clarity of … what my expectations are, so that it works.”
“I believe that the way to do it is make sure that we are working through a process, getting the Joint Chiefs of Staff clear in terms of what our priorities are going to be. That’s how we were able to integrate the armed services to get women more actively involved in the armed services,” Obama said.
That’s a wise approach toward a good and necessary end. In fact, a group of more than 100 retired senior officers recently signed a petition urging the outdated policy be changed. The petition stated:
“We — the undersigned — respectfully call for the repeal of the ‘don’t ask-don’t tell’ policy. Those of us endorsing this letter have dedicated our lives to defending the rights of our citizens to believe whatever they wish. Scholarly data shows there are approximately 1 million gay and lesbian veterans in the United States today as well as 65,000 gays and lesbians currently serving in our armed forces. They have served our nation honorably.
“We support the recent comments of former chairman of the Joint Chiefs, Gen. John Shalikashvili, who has concluded that repealing the ‘don’t ask-don’t tell’ policy would not harm and would indeed help our armed forces. As is the case with Great Britain, Israel and other nations that allow gays and lesbians to serve openly, our service members are professionals who are able to work together effectively despite differences in race, gender, religion and sexuality. Such collaboration reflects the strength and the best traditions of our democracy.”
That’s well put.
Services »
Comments
By AJC/DNC Management
November 18, 2008 6:29 PM | Link to this
Feminizing the military, yeah, good idea.
Betcha the Chinese aren’t.
By Paul
November 18, 2008 6:32 PM | Link to this
Perfect example of good policy, bad politics.
Pres-elect Obama has enough to deal with without taking on an ideological issue that would quickly drain resources from issues that were on voters’ minds. Just because n% see ‘no problem’ doesn’t mean it will not be contentious.
This also provides ammunition to those who assert the Left is using an Obama presidency to advance pet issues, albeit under the guise of ‘justice.’
Again, it may be okay policy - but right off the bat? Rahm Emanuel is there to make sure Clinton’s early mistakes don’t get repeated.
BTW - I’d be interested if Georgia-specific polling exists on this issue. I’d guess it’s not quite the same as the national numbers. In this case, an AJC/columnist position couldn’t be more at odds with the customer base. AJC’s performance in holding on to customers is worse than the American automakers. I doubt this issue will cause people to run out and buy a subscription.
By Wyld Byll Hyltnyr
November 18, 2008 6:34 PM | Link to this
Gotta disagree, Jay. Looks like BO has neither the conviction nor the stones to make a decision. Just as Nancy Filotio and the Dem Congress wouldn’t approve the TARP without “cover” which resulted in the effective failure of Wachovia at a great cost to normal Americans. Looks like the next four years are going to be a lot of hemming, hawing, and trying to avoid accountablity. If its the right thing to do, make the call and move on. To paraphrase a great American and (true) transformational political figure: Extremism in doing that which is correct is no vice. And moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.
By RW-(the original)
November 18, 2008 6:42 PM | Link to this
Paul,
It might be interesting to see where the 44% vs 75% national polling number comes from too. If it comes from a reputable firm with a solid cross section of demographics in the sample it’s one thing, but if comes from The Advocate it’s something else entirely.
I’ve noticed over the years that the less information a liberal gives you about how they came up with a number, the less reliable it tends to be.
By Mike
November 18, 2008 6:52 PM | Link to this
Tell us again about how the GOP is mired in culture wars, Jay.
By Paul
November 18, 2008 6:53 PM | Link to this
RW-(the original)
365gay dot com stated “An ABC News/Washington Post poll released on the weekend shows that 75 percent of Americans believe LGBT people should be allowed to serve.”
I didn’t find the original poll - still finishing up some stuff - but the key phrase is “allowed to serve.” If that was the question, they 75 percent of Americans agree with current DoD policy. Gays can serve.
It’s the openness that’s the issue.
[[Sexual orientation will not be a bar to service unless manifested by homosexual conduct. The military will discharge members who engage in homosexual conduct, which is defined as a homosexual act, a statement that the member is homosexual or bisexual, or a marriage or attempted marriage to someone of the same gender.
– quoted in “The Pentagon’s New Policy Guidelines on Homosexuals in the Military”, The New York Times (July 20, 1993), p.A14]]
There have been many cases of commanders ‘ferreting out’ gay members who are adhering to the ‘don’t talk about it’ policy. Then discharging them. Pentagon ought to knock that off and ‘counsel’ the commanders.
By @@
November 18, 2008 6:59 PM | Link to this
Just in time for “card check” and the ongoing battle for gay marriage.
Alrighty then! This could get interesting.
Paul:
I left a mint on your pillow downstairs.
By Paul
November 18, 2008 7:01 PM | Link to this
@@
Thanks. I think….
Brats and kraut await - and a dark lager.
Pleasant evening, all -
By AJC/DNC Management
November 18, 2008 7:06 PM | Link to this
‘Media Malpractice’: Documentary Reveals How Little Obama Voters Knew About Issues
“How Oblahma got elected.”
By leni
November 18, 2008 7:48 PM | Link to this
I like brats and kraut too. A lot better than spam. But spam is a better medium of exchange because it keeps.
By T
November 18, 2008 7:55 PM | Link to this
Jay, this would be great. However, I do not beleive it will happen any time soon.
The state nor the nation protects homosexuals in civilian employment.
The military might be a ways away. Then again stranger things have happened.
By T
November 18, 2008 8:03 PM | Link to this
Now, now Corporal.
There isn’t any of that between male and female conterparts.
By @@
November 18, 2008 8:03 PM | Link to this
Heeeyyyyyy!
Now ‘ya see there!
AmVet’s name calling will not be tolerated here. Not even when delivered through/by me.
or was it my rosebud, jay? A rose by any other name still smells as sweet.
So……when posts appear and then miss-appear
Where do they go exactly?
By RW-(the original)
November 18, 2008 8:10 PM | Link to this
@@,
I saw your post come and go Too bad you didn’t get the
Pulled—-Jay
treatment.
By Abomi Nation
November 18, 2008 8:21 PM | Link to this
This has become one of those “Center-Right” issues after all, even 64% of all Republicans said gays should be allowed to serve openly.
This should be done sooner rather than later. If Sen Larry Craig(R) were to run for President in ‘12 we would want to make sure he’d get his security clearance.
By AJC/DNC Management
November 18, 2008 8:26 PM | Link to this
Roger Middleton, a Horn of Africa specialist at the Chatham House think-tank, said that the capture was a crucial escalation. “Now that they have shown they are able to seize an enormous ship like this, it is beyond a military solution. You won’t fix this without a political solution.”
Horse Hockey.
Behold the new world order, a bunch of panty waists parading themselves around as world leaders, even as the barbarians knock over the gate.
Let’s all gather round and “hope” for the best, right?
Or, we could place a couple of well aimed Tomahawks midship and blow to hell the 100 million and all the savages perched onboard it.
Let them think were crazy.
And see if they try it again.
By Abomi Nation
November 18, 2008 8:42 PM | Link to this
Gays have always been in the military. Just look at the Marine Corps Dress uniforms.
They wear the pretty white gloves, carry those really “big swords,” they parade around with flashy medals on their shirts, they have flamboyant buttons. And ribbon. And little shoulder pad thingies.
The guy that designed those-GAY. Or maybe meterosexual.
By AJC/DNC Management
November 18, 2008 8:46 PM | Link to this
One must wonder why thee appointment of thee Magnificent and “Lovely” Bruno to the Office of thee Secretary of State has not been, uh, confirmed quite yet, are thee Oblahmi’s dangling the KKKlintons over thee precipice?
Oh my, what a loud crash that would be should he choose to, uh, drop “her.”
By the condor
November 18, 2008 8:56 PM | Link to this
-so join up abami. sounds like you would have a ball!
By Chad Harris
November 18, 2008 8:58 PM | Link to this
Uncle Teddy Toobs down in Snowbilly land. Two to go.
By T
November 18, 2008 8:59 PM | Link to this
Abomi Nation
You should see the new ACU’s.
Now male soldiers get nice silk boxers and knee pads.
By Midori
November 18, 2008 9:00 PM | Link to this
AP Just called the Alaska Senate race for BEGICH!!
By Chad Harris
November 18, 2008 9:06 PM | Link to this
* Dick Cheney and Moron Gonzales were just indicted in Texas.*
By Chad Harris
November 18, 2008 9:10 PM | Link to this
A grand jury indicted Cheney and Gonzales in Texas this afternoon.
By AJC/DNC Management
November 18, 2008 9:17 PM | Link to this
Wow, another freaking savage liberal loses what little bit of mind he ever had, go figure-
The indictment (Cheney,) which had not yet been signed by the presiding judge, was one of seven released Tuesday in a county that has been a source of bizarre legal and political battles in recent years. Another of the indictments named a state senator on charges of profiting from his position.
This flurry of charges came in the twilight of Guerra’s tenure, which ends this year after nearly two decades in office. He lost convincingly in a Democratic primary in March.
Willacy County Clerk Gilbert Lozano, District judges Janet Leal and Migdalia Lopez, and special prosecutors Mervyn Mosbacker Jr. — a former U.S. attorney — and Gustavo Garza — a long-time political opponent of Guerra — were all indicted on charges of official abuse of official capacity and official oppression.
Garza, the only one who could be immediately reached Tuesday, called it a sad state of affairs.
“I feel sorry for all of the good people this unprofessional prosecutor has maligned,” Garza said. “I’m not at all concerned about the accusations he has trumped up.”
That’s what you get for giving an animal some power.
We’ll learn someday.
Hopefully before it’s too late.
By getalife
November 18, 2008 9:18 PM | Link to this
Well, the corrupt Senate will not have to kick out the convicted felon.
By TN Gelding
November 18, 2008 9:22 PM | Link to this
Too good not to share.
By @@
November 18, 2008 9:24 PM | Link to this
RW:
I saw your post come and go Too bad you didn’t get the
Pulled—-Jay
treatment.
Not to worry R Double U.
I think of jay as my “little pull toy” anyway.
quack quack
quack quack
(IW&SH)
By Abomi Nation
November 18, 2008 9:25 PM | Link to this
I hear you on the uniform thing Corporal.
The evil gay designers show up all over. Places and institutions they don’t belong in. I think this is how the gays recruit.
Take the rough and tumble game of football for instance. How in the Hell did the gays get put in charge of designing football uniforms????
Big broad shoulders. Pants that are so tight that they leave nothing to the imagination. How about some Velcro skirts to cover up those near bare rear ends, NFL!
This is why good men like Senator Craig(R) and Rev Haggard(R) give into their urges.
The liberal media smothers us with subliminal gay images all the time. The gays control the media too.
Expect at least one branch of the armed forces to be taken over by the gays. Most likely the Navy. Of course its been all down hill for the Navy since Navy officials allowed the Village People to film a video on an aircraft carrier back in the 80’s. What’s the Navy now? 55%-45%, gay over straight?
By AJC/DNC Management
November 18, 2008 9:38 PM | Link to this
“Few challenges facing America — and the world – are more urgent than combating climate change,” Oblahmi says in the video. “The science is beyond dispute and the facts are clear. Sea levels are rising. Coastlines are shrinking.
Really?
When extrapolating from their North Atlantic results to the globe at large, they suggest that their research yields a global sea level rise near 1.1 mm per year which is well below IPCC and other estimates.
Now, check out the map that shows the same thing, rising seas in the Southern Hemisphere and sinking seas in the North.
It’s almost like the libs are longing for a reason to destroy the economy.
By Ray
November 18, 2008 9:50 PM | Link to this
Bookman,
What makes you think that gays are not already serving in the military? Lots in the medical and associated fields. Even had a monthly newsletter at Ft. Sam Houston. While in Panama, our hospital surgery clinic had 16 female personnel. 14 were openly gay. They are already serving, lots of them career officers. Also in Panama… the CINC PAC fleet commander was briefed by a gay LTC every day. Used to run with her every Sunday. What a fox. So, they are already there. Do we have to advertise it and place a label on their heads? Don’t ask. You might just find out.
By DB, Gwinnettian
November 18, 2008 10:09 PM | Link to this
For what it’s worth, I never forgave Sam Nunn for pushing this idiotic “compromise” policy on the new Clinton administration.
By RB from Gwinnett
November 18, 2008 10:13 PM | Link to this
Last time I checked, the officers who signed this petition are not bunking up with the soldiers they claim they don’t have a problem with being gay. I suspect a survey of the men sharing showers might be a bit different.
Also, the most liberal state in the nation votes down gay marriage 60/40 and somehow we’re supposed to believe 70% of the general population doesn’t have a problem with this? Does that sound reasonable to anybody but Jay?
By getalife
November 18, 2008 10:15 PM | Link to this
Man, that was good stuff Chad and TN.
Andy,
He is setting his agenda and it is jobs, baby jobs.
Green energy jobs. It is going to be the new bubble.
By Bud Wiser
November 18, 2008 10:25 PM | Link to this
Abomi seems not to have lost the touch for focusing tightly on gay issues and homosexual activities. Of course, Jay steered this worthless column in this direction, so what can I say?
I guess if we all want to become more European, we’re well on the war. Soon our history books can be rewritten to accommodate the ‘new’ military, converting to such tomes as the Italian War Heroes or French Military Strategists.
BTW, I can think of a lot more adjectives to describe Bill Clinton then brash, many of which are probably being uttered in hushed tones in the Obama camp while they review the erstwhile Hillary for some menial job. Maybe she can bake cookies for the O kids on the weekends. Better have a taster for that one.
By RB from Gwinnett
November 18, 2008 10:34 PM | Link to this
getaclue, You still barking up that green energy jobs tree? You do realize that would be the same as the US auto industry don’t you? Building things nobody will buy. Speaking of that, how’s that solar system coming at the getaclue house? You put your money where your mouth is yet? Didn’t think so since you’re just a sideline supporter who thinks all this is great as long as you don’t have to spend any of your money.
Kinda like helping the poor, right?
By Bud Wiser
November 18, 2008 10:37 PM | Link to this
Also, today marks the 30th anniversary of the Jim Jones KoolAid party in Guyana. My squadron was tasked to fly several C-130’s down there to pick up the meat. Airmen had to walk around with gas masks on, poking sharp sticks in the bodies to releases the gasses built up in the corpses from the heat, just to be able to fit them in body bags. Got a Presidential Unit Citation for it, though several good hot showers back home meant more at the time. The planes needed a good fumigating also.
I wonder how many of O and Jay’s new military would or could perform a task like that today? 930 was the total body count, I think. Of course Jones spared himself the torture of the poison and took a lead shot to the head. Coward. They’d have to charter a 747 just to ferry (no pun intended) the new soldiers back home from a scene like that.
By GodHatesTrash
November 18, 2008 10:41 PM | Link to this
Hope for rightwingnuts!
“We treat racism and homophobia as delusional disorders. Treatment with anti-psychotics does work to reduce these prejudices.” — Shama Chaiken, California Department of Corrections
Anti-psychotics work on psychopaths!
By Fred
November 18, 2008 10:54 PM | Link to this
Paul, you made a good point in your original post. Senator (president Elect) Obama has enough on his plate without opening up this can of worms.
On the other hand…….. I am neither gay nor a “gay supporter” (whatever the hell that means). However, as a Vet with a CIB, I don’t care who a person that defends my back sleeps with as long as they defend my back in a firefight. What difference does it make who a person that wants to serve their Country, to fight or die for it, sleeps with? I reckon my redneck dumbass just doesn’t get the problem.
Sign the line, do your time. Seems pretty simple to me. I don’t see a “don’t ask don’t tell” policy for pedophiles………….. they can serve with no problems………
By Soixante huitard
November 18, 2008 11:48 PM | Link to this
Gotta disagree, Jay. Looks like BO has neither the conviction nor the stones to make a decision.
Well I gotta disagree with you. You’re making the same mistake Hillary Clinton and many others have been making about Barack Obama in thinking he doesn’t ‘have the stones.’
How could you doubt that by now?
After all, the man’s the quintessential Chicago pol.
If there’s anything the guy has - it’s a stomach.
By Drew
November 19, 2008 12:30 AM | Link to this
“I suspect a survey of the men sharing showers might be a bit different. “
In fact, a Google search turned up a 2006 poll of veterans of Afghanistan and Iraq. More than one-fifth reported knowing at least one person in their unit was gay, and only one-third opposed allowing gay soldiers to serve openly.
So it seems that people who brave IEDs for their country are not particularly distressed by teh gay.
And bringing an end to this ban would seem to be very, very good politics. It would force the Republican Party to either defend a policy that 75% of American considers ridiculous or concede to a change that their base considers abhorrent. It’s a win-win.
By AJC/DNC Management
November 19, 2008 6:27 AM | Link to this
Mr. Obama did say something in his campaign about tax rebates for all these payroll taxpayers. He also said something about government matching contributions to incentivize today’s low- and middle-income workers to save for their own retirement.
Voilà, personal accounts funded by payroll-tax givebacks — strangely similar to the solution our current president promoted to help workers escape the impending insolvency of the government retirement programs. Mr. Obama envisioned himself extending FDR’s work. He may end up finishing George Bush’s.-WSJ
Bushie’s third term, heh.
By Tom
November 19, 2008 6:34 AM | Link to this
The armed forces have a very real problem right now: Recruitment and retention. It is easy to have exclusionary policies when you have a full roster anyway. But, that is no longer the case. I think the reason a lot of officers are now supporting the change is that they know that the all volunteer army can no longer afford to turn away this group of willing volunteers.
By AJC/DNC Management
November 19, 2008 6:35 AM | Link to this
Time to abandon the foolish Rino’s:
Maybe that’s because Republicans have looked closely at the election results. The country hasn’t so much moved left as it has abandoned a GOP that abandoned its own principles. In Ohio, Barack Obama actually won about 40,000 fewer votes than John Kerry did four years ago. Mr. Obama took Ohio only because John McCain pulled 350,000 fewer votes than George W. Bush did in 2004. Republicans and Republican-leaning voters stayed home.
That’s not an endorsement of the ideas of the left. It’s a lack enthusiasm for a party that failed to deliver the smaller government it promised in Washington. At least the GOP, in settling on future leaders like Governors Jindal, Sanford and Palin, seems to understand that.-WSJ
By G
November 19, 2008 8:13 AM | Link to this
Obama ought to make a military OK for gays a priority.
Sure, there’ll be a stink, but after a short while, the only people bithing will be the same people still bithing about allowing blacks and whites to serve together.
Everyone knows this is going to happen sooner or later.
By "The Corporal"
November 19, 2008 8:48 AM | Link to this
And may I ask why the Coporal’s posts from yesterday have been deleted overnight?
Has free speech suffered yet another blow ?
By Eric1
November 19, 2008 9:10 AM | Link to this
It really doesn’t matter what any of you think about this issue, yea or nay. Discrimination based on sexual orientation is wrong and it’s time to rectify this bad policy. It’s inevitable that change is coming, like it or not. If not now, soon. Equal protection under the law!
By Joey
November 19, 2008 9:59 AM | Link to this
Is it reasonable to ask:
During the debate on the Rights of Homosexuals, would the Homosexuals and other Proposition 8 protesters show just a little, a smidgen of respect for the vote.
By Bosch
November 19, 2008 10:25 AM | Link to this
Joey,
I would respect the vote if it didn’t violate the rights of American citizens.
By Joey
November 19, 2008 10:33 AM | Link to this
Bosch: So in you mind this issue should never be put in front of the voters?
Then does this fall under: The State Courts? The US Courts? The State Legislatures? The US Congress?
By Bosch
November 19, 2008 10:39 AM | Link to this
Joey,
It doesn’t belong in the courts at all. And no, I don’t believe it should be put before the voters. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with governance of a state of this country.
It’s discrimination pure and simple, and does not belong anywhere except between a couple, their preacher, and God.
By Bosch
November 19, 2008 10:41 AM | Link to this
Joey,
Excuse the typo, I meant to type the governance of a state OR this country.
My bad.
By Richard
November 19, 2008 11:08 AM | Link to this
So by that logic, is Obama also going to repeal Affirmative Action?
By "The Corporal"
November 19, 2008 12:13 PM | Link to this
Jay
Why haven’t you pulled Abomi Nation’s 8:59pm post from yesterday as you did mine ?
Is that not supposedly insulting speech based on stereotypes or do you just pick on the free speech of conservatives ??
By Joey
November 19, 2008 1:00 PM | Link to this
Bosch: I am not opposed to any two adult humans being married. I am not opposed to multiple individuals being married as a group, as long as all parties are aware and agree.
However, Government; local, state, federal and maybe others; will be expected to recognize the marriage and to oversee the divorce. Hence removing government; courts, legislature, whatever, is not feasible.
So, who do you want to be in charge?
By RealityKing
November 19, 2008 2:19 PM | Link to this
Of course Jay, and the entire AJC staff(save one), also supports the complete dumbing down of all Christian morals in our society. Regardless of the fact that they were the very things that inspired millions of us to fight and die to make America what it is today.
Mere foolishness to progressive socialists..
By RealityKing
November 19, 2008 2:33 PM | Link to this
But seriously.., now that homosexuality has been scientifically shown to be a treatable behavior disorder caused by a biological chemical endorphin imbalance. The United State Military should have no problem admitting homosexuals, and homosexuals should have no problem taking the new behavior modification drugs that will keep their homosexualism in remission. The same way all biological disorders are scientifically handled today.