Lawsuit targets prayer at Cobb Commission meetings

An American Civil Liberties Union lawyer on Wednesday asked a federal appeals court to stop a practice that allows predominantly Christian prayers to open Cobb County Commission meetings.

But a panel of skeptical judges did not appear ready to make such a ruling. Instead, the judges wondered how a court could divine whether God belongs to one religion or another, or to no religion at all?

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A three-judge panel of the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Atlanta pondered the issue in a case brought by seven residents represented by the ACLU and Americans United for Separation of Church and State.

In 2005, they filed suit seeking to halt Cobb’s practice because more than 70 percent of the prayers involve Christianity and many invoke the name of Jesus Christ.

ACLU lawyer Daniel Mach had barely started into his arguments when Judge Bill Pryor interrupted him, asking how courts can know when a prayer is sectarian or nonsectarian.

“What about King of Kings?” Pryor asked. “Is that sectarian?”

Stammering, Mach answered that phrase could “arguably be a reference to one God.” Mach later agreed that, in some instances, it is hard to draw a bright line of distinction.

“What about Lord of Lords?” Pryor asked again. “The God of Abraham?”

“That’s a tougher call,” Mach said, responding to the second question. “Several faiths believe in the God of Abraham.”

Pryor, a former Alabama attorney general, pressed on.

“What about the God of Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad?” he asked. “Or Heavenly Father?” he continued, noting that could refer to the Divine Trinity.

In a ruling last year, U.S. District Judge Richard Story in Atlanta allowed the prayers to continue. He said that because Cobb invites representatives of all denominations to give the prayer, the county is not unconstitutionally endorsing one religion over another.

Story did find, though, that the Cobb Planning Commission improperly chose its invocation speakers because clergy of certain faiths had been excluded.

Pryor complimented Story’s ruling and Cobb’s practice. “The County Commission here has taken a much more accommodating, but not entangling, policy,” he said.

Judge Charles Wilson followed Pryor’s line of questioning, wondering how far a county should go in regulating prayers. “As a practical matter, how do you draw the line?” he asked.

Does the county need to get a copy of a prayer before it’s given to make sure it’s not sectarian? Wilson wondered. How can this be done “without some sort of censorship?”

U.S. District Court Judge Donald Middlebrooks, a visiting judge from West Palm Beach, Fla., agreed.

If some prayers must be edited and “watered down” to make sure they are not identified with a certain denomination, “isn’t it just government prayer?”

Mach countered that the county already regulates the prayers by making sure they do not proselytize or disparage other religions. He added that federal appeals courts in Richmond, New Orleans, Chicago and San Francisco all have ruled that sectarian prayers that open official government meetings run afoul of the First Amendment.

But David Walbert, a lawyer for the county, said Congress has opened its sessions with sectarian prayers since the U.S. Senate’s first chaplain was appointed in the late 18th century. “Everything that is at issue here was clearly being done in 1789,” Walbert said.

Before the three judges heard the arguments on Wednesday, they entered the courtroom and paused, standing behind their seats. A clerk then called the court to order, ending, “God save the United States and this honorable court.”

The court is expected to issue a ruling in the Cobb prayer case in the coming months.

Comments

By Lowell

Aug 25, 2008 3:38 AM | Link to this

Hey Kevin, did you ever stop to consicer the fact that the Roman Empire only went down the toilet AFTER it embraced Christianity? Stop telling MY country and government what faith to believe in. Yours has caused incredible suffering and death throughout history.

By Kevin

Aug 21, 2008 11:40 PM | Link to this

What happened to the Roman Empire when the went to perversion and Godlessness? It faltered. What happened to Germany when it went against the teachings of the Bible? It was essentially destroyed and split up. We need to get a better understanding of how SUPER powers of the world desintigrated by failing to include God in their everyday lives. Our country was born on Christian principles. I agree that everyone has the right to believe and worship in whatever way they desire. One post says that if we Christians don't like the fact that others don't want our beliefs SHOVED down their throats, that there are other places for us to go. In fact, it is you that should leave because if you do not like what our country is, then it is you that should leave. Our country cannot change to meet every special interest groups needs/beliefs and will fail if it does. I have been to many government meetings in various county's and have not seen ONE person forced to pray or believe Christian principles. You are free not to bow your head or say "Amen". So quit telling my country and government what faith it can believe in.

By Tony

Aug 21, 2008 12:56 PM | Link to this

I'm always amazed how Christians in particular can't see the issue here.

If government wasn't busy meddling in religious matters such as having prayers, we wouldn't be dealing with this issue now. Spirituality is a personal issue - it should be LEFT that way. Quit trying to shove it down everyone's throats and have forced prayers. You are always free to have your own prayer - no one can take that from you. There is NO reason for the government to lead a prayer.

I'll bet one thing - if the Cobb County commission started each meeting with readings from the Koran, there would be no end to the screaming from the Christians here.

This is totally distracting. The same people moaning that this is taking from the time, money, and focus to resolve real issues should realize this is the VERY reason prayer in government should be avoided.

There are far too many religions and personal variations on spirituality to encompass everyone, so leave it to the individuals.

Someone here said, as a Christian, he was tired of people telling him what to do. Well, I'm here to tell you I'm sick of the Christians trying to tell ME what to do. Go pray - I support you in that. But don't make ME pray YOUR prayer.

By Get Real

Aug 21, 2008 10:55 AM | Link to this

Let's not complicate the issue here. It's as simple as the separation of church and state. If you want to pray, go to church. Got to a mosque. Go to a synagogue. Go home. Go to the top of a mountain and meditate. There are innumerable opportunities to do so. Why does there need to be a prayer (usually an exclusive one) before the zoning of a McDonalds? If you go to a Cobb County Commission meeting to be spiritually fulfilled, you've made a serious mistake.

By Richard

Aug 21, 2008 10:13 AM | Link to this

How sad that some of you have to take this stand...I feel so sorry for those who think that after this life there is nothing...God promises much more for those who seek him, but he will never push himself on anyone. God is not to blame for what is happening to our County, there are consequences in life for what people do...And there will be consequences for those who try and stop his work...If you are offended by God or Christians perhaps God is trying to work in your life and you should stop running and listen... I had rather live my life as if there is a god, than to live my life as if there is no God, and die and find out he was there all the time...So, for those of you who think Christians and simple-mind people, then so be it...Just remember Christ will prevail.
Instead of the ACLU worrying about and issue like this, why don't they spend their time and our money on more important issues...And stop forcing to me to believe what they want me to believe or do....

By Anon

Aug 21, 2008 1:54 AM | Link to this

One question...

How is this "issue" important again?

By Ray

Aug 21, 2008 1:50 AM | Link to this

Sorry people, but some of us are tired of being treated like second class citizens. It is a big deal to us. You are trying take away our constitutional rights and have the government force your religion on the rest of us. We have had enough. Not everyone believes in your fairy tale story of an all knowing superpower that controls all of us and will one day decide whether we burn forever or live happily ever after on a cloud. This is America, we have a right to our beliefs, it is not the place of our government to decide what we should believe. If any of you people have a problem with our constitution I can suggest a few countries where you don't have the right to express your beliefs. Many of you are so simple minded. God is an outdated myth. Our problems are not the result of god being taken away from anything. Blame god for this, praise him for that, it's all so simple. Lets find the real solutions. This country would be a lot better off if christians would stop trying to force their delusional beliefs on the rest of us. How about using what little mental ability you may have to think for yourselves, take some responsibility and stop blaming everything on god.

By East Cobb

Aug 20, 2008 11:37 PM | Link to this

Its not about being offended, its about being excluded. I do not want my government excluding me because I choose not to follow the teachings of Jesus. My government should be inclusive, that is to say for ALL the people, not just the overbearing majority. At some point, the excluded will no longer sit back and accept being trod upon by the jack-booted majority. My thanks to the ACLU for standing up to the Christian zealotry that presently has a stranglehold on my government.

By libbie

Aug 20, 2008 6:16 PM | Link to this

When is the Aclu going to realize there going to give account for all they do to try to make this country Godless . thing is they will end up on the loosing end. for the gates of hell shall not prevail.

By West Cobb

Aug 20, 2008 5:08 PM | Link to this

Can the ACLU find something worthwhile to actually accomplish other than going around and harassing people? Seriiously....I would be so embarassed to have a job with the ACLU. It is pretty much a joke.

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