Commutants!

By Meg

November 10, 2005 11:22 PM | Link to this

You’re exactly right. Adding lanes and more and better roads has worked so well in the past… which is why we now have so few traffic and air pollution problems.

(The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.)

By GB

November 11, 2005 07:20 AM | Link to this

Absolutely. And add one more improvement: price rationing. Charge for use of HOV lanes.

By sarah

November 11, 2005 07:41 AM | Link to this

why would you want to deter people from carpooling by charging them to use the hov lane? i think you’ve got it backwards.

By Alan

November 11, 2005 07:41 AM | Link to this

Here’s a start: Make all lanes HOV duting rush hours except one for those who insist on solo commuting in vehicles half the size of busses.

By David S.

November 11, 2005 07:44 AM | Link to this

I disagree. I lived in Ireland for a while a few years back and never owned a car. The bus system there had plenty of buses, routes and a good schedule (usually every 20 minutes). Cobb buses, for example, run on the hour in some cases and have a very limited route. Add more and frequent buses, extend the routes. I’d be happy to start using it again.

By Patrick

November 11, 2005 07:51 AM | Link to this

When our company moved further downtown, I looked into taking the bus from Cobb. it would have taken me twice as long as driving. If I missed one bus, it was a hour until the next one. That was a few years ago and I think they have added more busses. I may look back into it, but I really have lost interest. Now, if they add a train line I will be all over that.

By AG

November 11, 2005 07:59 AM | Link to this

I wouldn’t mind using bus/train but I live in Ellenwood and work near Cumberland Mall. The way the bus/train system is now it would take over 2 1/2 hrs to get to work. That wouldn’t save me anything.

By Marc Marton

November 11, 2005 08:07 AM | Link to this

I currently drive every day to the North Springs MARTA rail station. I could drive fewer miles and catch a bus at the Mansell Road Park & Ride, where Route 140 busses go directly to North Springs station. But, inexlicably, the 140 bus route has limited early-morning service. I can’t get a bus early enough. Makes no sense to me.

By Sean

November 11, 2005 08:08 AM | Link to this

This is why Cobb, Gwinnett, and Clayton need to get with the program and join forces with MARTA. These are the areas with the WORST traffic in the entire state. Rail stations in these areas would nip it in the bud, but the public has been misled by the media painting a negative image of public transportation.

By An dyu

November 11, 2005 08:19 AM | Link to this

Oh sure, add more lanes… That’ll work. HOV lanes that extend only to the Perimiter, that’ll work. This is the only city that I have been in that the left lane comes to a stop and the right lane keeps going. No wonder, they call us backwards in the south.

Extending rail would not be that hard. The damn rail is already there through Gwinnett. I can’t speak for Cobb. I passed over it every day when I live in Gainesville and commuted all the way downtown. And if you think no one would use it, ask the people I rode the Gwinnett County Transit Express bus with. That bus was almost never empty. Usually standing room only. The rail from Gainesville ran all the way downtown to the Connector. And if Gwinnett doesn’t want the rail, don’t stop there. There are plenty of others that would use it.

As for scheduling, there does need to be an increase in frequency. That was a major concern when riding the GTC Express bus.

But neglecting mass transit would be a mistake. It works in other cities. Are you telling me that our leadership cannot figure it out? Then we need new leadership. They just spend 8M on “branding” the city so we could attract more people. Just what we need, more cars on the road. The money should have been spent on improving the infastructure to handle those people before we attract them. Then they would be attracted to come here. doen’t anyone remember the Olympics when the city begged everyone to use mass transit, and everyone did. Back then, 10 years ago, the system couldn’t handle the volume. That is what is called an “indicator”, that there was a problem that needed to be addressed. But was it? Again, the south “backwards/backwoods”.

By David

November 11, 2005 08:20 AM | Link to this

The entire system needs to be revamped. The system needs to be looked at as a whole versus a metro area with some individual counties running there own system. Bus and rail systems can and do work if the planning and coverage is done right. I looked into the express busses but I can not at this time make heads nor tails of the schedule. There are disadvantages of bus and rail systems. Main one is it does take a little longer to get places. But with a system that runs on a time schedule, that is predictable, its not as bad as it could be. More roads aren’t going to eliminate the problem. We have a real issue with the where to put new roads or lanes on existing roads. Doing what LA does by digging tunnels and 2 and 3 story highways.
A better rail system that was punctual and covered the majority of the routes in to the downtown with a bus system set up to disperse people from there would work better.

By KABA

November 11, 2005 08:20 AM | Link to this

IMHO, more highway lanes or more HOV access would only lead to more conjestion and accidents, more pollution, and no solution to our traffic problems.

I live in Dacula, in eastern Gwinnett Co., 40 miles from my job in Atlanta. I would definitely take the train if they provided passenger rail service and coordinated with bus service in Atlanta.

When Gwinnett started their bus service they said there wouldn’t be enough interest or riders. Well, they were wrong, and there are still too few buses and they are all packed; there are too few stops with inadequate parking because so many people want to ride, not drive to work. I don’t ride the bus because I have to drive 12 miles just to get to a bus stop and the parking is full by the time I get there.

Trains and buses are the smart solution. Look at other major US cities, and what do you see? Trains and buses and much wider and better service from subway systems.

By chris

November 11, 2005 08:35 AM | Link to this

If all the scared white people in the suburbs would realize they are more likely to get killed in an SUV rollover than by some criminal on public transit, maybe things would start to improve.

Our daily rush hour clogs are nothing more than a continuation of segregation for the new millenium: Separate and horribly unequal.

The same laws that were applied to require school integration need to be applied now to require transportation integration.

Until transportation is integrated, every new highway interchange should be named “The Jim Crow Interchange” to show them for what they really are.

By Debi Lowry

November 11, 2005 08:40 AM | Link to this

I am a bus rider and I am for several reasons, conservation, one car family and stress relief. I have always been a mass transit user even on the west coast. If you only have an hour for lunch or less is there really a need for a car during the day? If I have plans in the city after work(I live in Cobb and work in the city) I arrange accordingly. Mass transit here is not what it is in other cities. There is no incentive to use it. Customer Service by many drivers and CCT staff is lacking. There is no class separation when it comes to bus riders, students, white collar, blue collar, parents with young children, people out exploring ride the bus.

By Sean

November 11, 2005 08:49 AM | Link to this

The issues that we have with traffic and public transportation fall squarely on the shoulders of our state leaders. There are too many chiefs and not enough indians. Everyone wants their county to have its OWN public transit, and the state is okay with this even though it is proven that it won’t work. Seperatism never has the same power as working together. First off, the bus should only be used in places where the rail can’t access. Thats because the trains are quick, efficient, and they will always soar above the thousands of cars lined up on the interstate bumper to bumper. The best idea would be commuter rail connecting county to county. MARTA has a vision of this but the governor, Cobb, Gwinnett, and Clayton transits all have different ideas. How all these newcomers got to be experts in the public transportaion is beyond me. But somehow they have, and this is what stands between a high-speed rail system.

By Sharon Henderson

November 11, 2005 09:08 AM | Link to this

Add more lanes? You cannot be serious. And how many lanes would be adequate? 8 on each side? 10? 15? It has been proven that more lanes = more traffic. Why would you want to keep doing something that has been proven not to work? Instead of more lanes, why not more buses and trains which run more frequently and more efficiently?

By JAS

November 11, 2005 09:09 AM | Link to this

Check out those buses in Cobb and Gwinnett. Most of the time they run empty, or nearly empty. They’re road clutter, except for express buses during rush hour.

By Jason

November 11, 2005 09:10 AM | Link to this

Chris you need to get off your soap box and get a job. It’s the SUV driving white people that pay taxes so that you can collect a welfare check. If you don’t like Atlanta leave!!

By Sarah

November 11, 2005 09:13 AM | Link to this

Nice job Chris, blame suburban white people for all the ills and the spoils of the world, how easy and how convenient. We suburban white people surely don’t want to address the sometimes filthy conditions of the buses, the horrendous scheduling and some of the people you have to put up with to ride on the nightmares on wheels we call MARTA buses. Good job !While you have all of our attention, perhaps you want to add fammine, pestilence, bird flu, broken levees, high gas prices and the bombing of Jordan hotels on us too. Don’t stop there, get us for global warming, voter ID cards, the flat tire the woman had I passed on I-85 south this morning. Oh, one more…blame us for the cold weather in the winter and the hot summers.

By KABA

November 11, 2005 09:14 AM | Link to this

Chris, You are a race baiting bigot and way off base. Most of the Gwinnett residents riding the commuter buses into Atlanta are white, and most Gwinnett residents I know want more public transportation options. I am white, work in Atlanta, and am not a bit ‘scared.’

Sean, You hit the nail on the head. The metro Atlanta ‘leaders’ are more concerned with controlling their turf, than working with their neighbors to solve their shared transportation problems. They need to travel to other large metropolitan areas and take a lesson in train, rail, subway and bus coordination.

By GG

November 11, 2005 09:24 AM | Link to this

So who do you suppose is NOT included in the Governor’s Congestion Management Task Force? Of course, MARTA, which is a major player in solving congestion problems in this city. With some state funding, agressive scheduling and marketing, MARTA could

With over 500,000 riders per day, MARTA no doubt offers SOME relief, even though it’s annoying to wait 30 minutes for the train (at lindbergh, going to doraville this morning).

For you movie and history buffs, there was a great film documentary (“Taken for a Ride”) shown last night discussing these very issues and the forces that went into dismantling the public transportation systems that existed at one time in most large cities- the trolley -

See you on the train!

By Fred G

November 11, 2005 09:25 AM | Link to this

You people commenting “busses and trains work in other cities” are assuming way too much about Atlanta. Busses/trains work elsewhere due to factors absent in Atlanta. 1) Cities where mass transit works have well-built infrastructure that was created before suburban explosion and that have geographical barriers to sprwal (NYC, Boston, DC, etc.). Atlanta has no such infrastructure (ever notice how many 2 lane, winding roads exist in this city?) and no barriers to sprawl, so no impetus to create the critical people mass needed BEFORE mass transit can blossom 2) Cities who develop mass transit in the modern era place a value on smart growth and the environment (Portland, Seattle, etc.). Atlanta places it’s values on one thing — money. People in this city are here to make money, and the environment is an afterthought. One needs to look no further than our government representatives pleading yesterday to allow the EPA to bend its clean air rules to allow for Altanta’s continued growth as proof of that. Until there is enough money in it for the private sector to make mass transit a reality, Altanta will never get there. The good news is that this type of money is starting to show up, and the Beltline and Atlantic station are the seeds of this type of development.

So, while the desire for better transit here clearly exists, there just isn’t enough of the necessary pieces here to make it a reality.

By Elisa

November 11, 2005 09:31 AM | Link to this

I ride the bus in from Gwinnett to work in downtown Atlanta each weekday. I can’t imagine driving in that traffic ever again. Yes, the ride time is roughly the same. But who cares? I get on the bus, crack open a book or pop on some headphones to listen to a cd and before I know it I’m downtown. No fuss, no muss. My days are tremedously less stressful, and I’m saving money by not buying two fill-ups of gas a week and then untold wear and tear on my car. Commuting by bus is a great option and, judging from the packed Park & Ride lots, I’m not the only one who thinks so.

By Samuel

November 11, 2005 09:35 AM | Link to this

When I moved here 11 years ago there were horrific truck accidents on 75/85 down through the city. Everybody reacted and so the trucks were banned and moved to 285. Now the horrific accidents take place there instead of downtown. The problem of why the accidents were occruing has never been solved-not to mention there’s more traffic on the perimeter because you added more volume by putting the trucks there in the first place.

People need to stop being in fear of the “bad element” coming to their neighborhood because MARTA does. The “bad element” doesn’t use MARTA for the same reasons us law abiding folks don’t. It doesn’t go everywhere thus, they too drive cars to get to your communities and cause cahos.

By Joe McLain

November 11, 2005 09:45 AM | Link to this

Here’s a thought. We have a majority of the people in the lanes going into Atlanta in the morning and out of Atlanta in the evening. Why don’t we investigate making the medians movable? In other words make the middle divider movable to support more traffic flow into the city in the morning and out of the city in the evening? People like their cars so lets keep their cars moving by adding lanes. You don’t need a million dollar study to see that.

By MARTIN

November 11, 2005 09:46 AM | Link to this

Unfortunately, adding more buses is not the answer because Atlanta is too spread out for buses to be effective. Perhaps for travel in local neighborhoods would be good but not too much else. How long is a bus ride from Gwinnett County to downtown Atlanta? Whose got that much time to spare? The ride is just too long to be effective. And the bus may or may not put you close to your final destination. Even express bus service is not great in Atlanta because the times the buses are available is too sparatic. Who wants to wait 30 minutes for a bus during rush hour?! If you ever run late, forget it!

The quick solution to dealing with traffic is to first synchronize the traffic lights. It does not make sense that when driving down most streets, every time you get to the intersection the light is red. That is why so many people speed thru the yellow and red lights. Next adding right turn lanes are important. This would also shorten the time the lights would have to remain green to allow cars to proceed. Worst intersection that violates this is North Point Parkway and Old Milton Parkway in Alpharetta. Third, All major streets with access to or from the expressway should have ample entrance and exit lanes with traffic lights that allow them to exit and enter more freely. We all know that there are going to be more cars at these intersections, why aren’t the roads and bridges built wide enough to accommodate this? What is the “impact fee” that is charged to new developments used for? For that matter, what is the avalorem tax we pay every year used for?

A lot of our problems do not require rocket scientists, million dollar studies that take years to conclude or professionals from around the globe. Just some good old fashioned common sense.

By Darren

November 11, 2005 09:49 AM | Link to this

Wooten, you’re an idiot. I hope GM, Chrysler or Exxon is paying you to embarass yourself writing something this stupid. Every traffic study in the country shows that building bigger roads only attracts more cars. Atlanta didn’t have these traffic problems until we built 16 lane highways and encouraged everyone to live 45 miles from where they work. The answer here is better land use planning and community design. Believe me, it actually feels good to be able to walk down to the corner store for a gallon of milk and a loaf of bread once in a while. But I understand that must be difficult from your gated subdivision.

By David

November 11, 2005 09:53 AM | Link to this

Transit has never been given a fighting chance in this region. If you don’t provide enough money to permit frequent and high quality service, of course what is offered is going to be slow, dirty, inefficient, etc. Dismissing its potential based on what it has been, rather than what it could be, is myopic.

Jim Wooten loves to try boiling the entire argument of cars vs. transit down to cost effectiveness. That’s because he knows that with the unlevel playing field upon which transit has been forced to compete in this region, it will always come out the loser in a simplistic benefit/cost analysis which only considers number of people transported and the sum of capital and operating costs. Highways will always come out on top if you distort the analysis that way.

But take a step back and think about this holistically for a moment. How in the world can anybody draw the conclusion that moving each person around in a car by themsles is more cost effective than moving 50 people at a time in a bus or 1000 people at a time on a train? It simply doesn’t make sense.

Cheerleaders for road building, such as Wooten, fail to give you all the facts about how B/C should be calculated. You can’t just divide actual people moved by fixed costs (unless you’re intentionally trying to mislead people). What if the benefit side of the equation also considered the potential number of people who could be moved if transit headways were improved? What if the benefit numerator were based on theoretical capacity rather than actual levels of use? That “correction” in the analysis sure would favor transit options, wouldn’t it? And what if the cost denominator reflected more than simply public sector expenditures to provide the service? What if you factor in the private sector costs of owning and operating all those cars? What if you also included costs of increased pollution, the hospital bills of everybody injured and killed by auto accidents, and the time lost by everybody else who gets stuck in traffic whenever those accidents occur? Suddenly, roads become a lot less competitive when the b/c analysis considers these additional factors.

Let’s face facts. Driving is more convenient and saves us time because we’ve made it that way over the past 50 years. Transit is less competitive and desirable because we’ve made it that way. But it doesn’t have to be that way forever. We’ve seen what the transportation policy decisions made over the past 50 years have gotten us. It’s not pretty. And staying the course only promises more of the same. Why not try a different approach? What do we have to lose? Let’s have an honest discussion in this region about cost effectiveness of transportation options (and include ALL costs and ALL benefits) and not let people like Wooten miguide us by omitting half the facts.

By Angelina

November 11, 2005 09:55 AM | Link to this

What needs to be done is that the county commissioners need to do what California does - charge the builders for the roads……If the commissioners keep approving more buildings, more homes, etc, then common sense tells you that the roads are going to jam up unless you make improvements and add lanes. It’s not rocket science. The builders are attracting more people to areas because the homes are selling and I gotta tell ya - the commutes are getting much worse because of it. If the builders were charged for updating roads for each 50 homes they built, then maybe even the citizen’s taxes could go down.

By chris

November 11, 2005 09:56 AM | Link to this

Rail already exists from downtown Marietta and downtown Smyrna to downtown Atlanta.

Commuter trains could be run on this rail and connect in with Marta at a transfer station downtown like New Jersey Transit connects to the New York subway at Penn Station.

Why is this not done?

The scared white people won’t have any of it.

Instead, the leader of Marietta and his pork buddy in Smyrna sing in unison, “More lanes please! Let our constituents stay in their cars from their driveways to their workplaces! It is the American way! More oil please! And let us rid our fair cities of apartments and get more homeowners instead!”

“Homeowners” is their code for “white people.” They think their code is secret and unbroken but we know who they mean when they say “renters.”

Believe me, we know.

By edge770

November 11, 2005 10:08 AM | Link to this

Quick answers.. 1. Sonny needs to declare an immediate state of emergency and take over Marta. He says he doesn’t have the power, yes he does if he uses it.. 2. Fire all union employees of Marta and merge it into GRTA, if you have to lay them off and give severence.. Marta is going downhill quick. 3. Require GRTA CCT and GCT to start service at 4:30 am to 9:30pm on an hourly basis. 4. Develop hub and spoke networks off of rail stations. 5. Mandate all Metro counties to participate or lose ALL state funding on ALL projects. You have to have a carrot and a baseball bat.
6. Provide bus only lanes on all interstate corridors, if this means taking a lane from regular traffic, so be it. 7. Mandate truck travel in metro area from 9pm to 6am and 9am to 3pm. Issue 5,000 fines for each violation with revocation of CDL license on 3rd offense.
8. Gas prices raised significantly to force mass transit solutions. Keep gas at 3.00 a gallon.

I am not a democrat, but I know that mass transit works when not managed by illiterates for public welfare. Jim must be related to CW Matthews, because with the exception of surface streets, road widening and lane adding on the interstates is not going to help except on 400 and 575.

By Miles

November 11, 2005 10:13 AM | Link to this

Jason and Sarah, I am sorry, but Chris is right, MARTA is not able to expand into these other counties simply because of politics and poor management. In my opinion, MARTA is the worst transportation system in the nation… the worst! Reason being, MARTA is not taking the intiative to provide adequate service to a continously growing city.
Not blaming white people for MARTA’s expansion problems to reach Cobb, Clayton and Gwinnett, but that is where majority of the hold up is coming from. The people with money and power within these counties are having the say-so with these decisions, and again, majority of these people are white. African-Americans and/or Hispanic-Americans within these counties will gladly welcome public transportation options for adequate travel back and fourth to their destinations, but politics and money are preventing these. And the local government is more likely to cater to the individuals with the highest ratio and contributions to taxes. Although I don’t approve of the service that MARTA provides, I am regular rider because of school and job activities. Previously residing in San Francisco and Asheville, NC, I don’t think MARTA’s service is nothing compared to these cities and other cities I have been to. Even small ole Ashevile has better bus service then Atlanta… THE WHITE PEOPLE ALLOW IT! Jason, I think you need to grow up, Chris was just simply stating a fact that you fail to realize that is true. I don’t agree with the way he said it, but then again I don’t agree with your choice of words when the entire nation is paying taxes and “white women” are the majority that receive welfare checks… we just prefer to take the EBT cards! :)

By Joe

November 11, 2005 10:14 AM | Link to this

Jim, you’re clearly suffering from a delusion of car nostalgia, and your idea of cost-benefit analysis is not based in reality.

Try to find a reliable, empirical study that shows that increasing the number of lanes or roads reduces traffic congestion. You won’t be able to find such a study because the reliable, empirical studies show that more roadbuilding increases traffic congestion. In addition, further studies have shown that reducing the number of lanes and roads leads to an immediate decrease in the amount of traffic congestion by as much as 60% within that area — that’s without any cost to the local economy. Providing alternatives such as busses and trains, and increasing pedestrian and bicycle access are all cost-efficient solutions, especially when these alternatives are planned to take land use into account.

By the way, it would be impossible for me to have any nostalgia for any of these things since I was not even alive when Atlanta had a streetcar system.

By KABA

November 11, 2005 10:17 AM | Link to this

Yes, Chris, the rail lines already exist, but it is the RAILROAD Companies that have not cooperated with local governments to create passenger commuter service. We are not ‘scared’ of you Chris! We commute to Atlanta every day and shop and eat and attend cultural events and walk the streets with you every day! The Atlanta economy depends on the businesses staffed by the white and black and hispanic and asian residents who commute daily from the suburbs.

More lanes on the interstates, wider entrance ramps, or synchronized stoplights are not going to prevent the gridlock causing accidents that happen many times every day because of speed, makeup application, eating, reading, writing, sun in your eyes, rain, wind, wrong way drivers, inattention, cell phone use, dogs in laps, children distractions and corrections, CD changes, road rage, and just plain stupidity.

The numbers boil down to this; more lanes + more cars = more congestion.

By John

November 11, 2005 10:31 AM | Link to this

I think we must change the way we look at business, home and shopping. Currently we are able to shop where we live, so the problem is where we work. Most of us do not work close to home, which creates traffic congestion, wastes energy and above all wastes time…precious time.

I suspect a large percentage of our jobs are not related to location as much as function. Those jobs that are function related could be performed remotely or by telecommuting. Telecommuting does however present a new group of challenges. The major problems include a lack of social interaction and job management. I believe the following idea could greatly impact all of our business-traffic concerns in a positive manner.

I propose to build office buildings near home communities that are comprised of multiple small offices connected remotely to each respective home office or downtown business. This would eliminate both social interaction and management barriers. I believe that working with people you live with help to build a stronger-safer community.

I do know that not all job functions would fit into this scenario but if only 25% could, imagine 25% less traffic during rush hour; 25% less fuel being consumed; an extra 2-4 hours of free time every day. And what about the other 75% commuting every day? There life would be a lot better also.

By Mark

November 11, 2005 10:36 AM | Link to this

It is a poorly concealed secret within the professional transportation planning and engineering community that the Governor’s Congestion Mitigation Task Force is a sham orchestrated by Georgians for Better Transportation. Operating under political feel good code words such as “cost effectiveness” and “congestion relief”, the hidden agenda is to divert every last dollar spent on alternative modes into road capacity projects. Why? Because road building contractors are the primary financial supporters of GBT. That’s the reason MARTA isn’t sitting at the table.

By KABA

November 11, 2005 10:43 AM | Link to this

John, Sometimes we start out living near our work, but because of the shifting economy, company mergers, relocations, and layoffs, your job is now no longer near your home. My husband has gone through several company mergers, relocations and layoffs. He took a job in Huntsville, Alabama with his former employer who had been in Duluth, GA near our home. I work in Atlanta, and so he commutes to and from Huntsville each weekend. Huntsville’s commuter traffic is nothing. He only has to face the hated Atlanta interstates on Friday evening. Traffic is usually OK when he goes back to Alabama on Sunday evening (unless there’s construction or a wreck as happened 4 times this fall on 285 and 75 through Marietta).

By Glen

November 11, 2005 10:44 AM | Link to this

Back in July when gas prices went north, I started riding MARTA. I have taken the time to learn the train and bus schedules, and since I work in Midtown and go to church in Decatur, MARTA has proved very convenient for me even though I live in Gwinnett.

I had to work at a location in Cobb, and I echo AG’s comment about the commute taking so much longer that putting up with traffic is preferable. I wish Cobb, Gwinnett, Clayton and MARTA could be integrated into one system.

IMHO, the biggest problem with driving is signals that are not calibrated to the traffic flow. Try to drive on LaVista around NorthLake Mall and you will sit at a red light while the next light is green for an empty intersection only to see it change red when your light turns green.

By SayitAin'tSo

November 11, 2005 10:50 AM | Link to this

Chris, get a clue. We all face the same issues with traffic and public transportation; tall or short, fat or thin, black or white. If you’re a renter, and that in itself is not a bad thing, but in your case, it may be because you’re not bright enough to have the type job that pays one the type salary to be able to afford a home to purchase.

By chris

November 11, 2005 10:57 AM | Link to this

Atlanta’s transportation infrastructure is design to prevent renters from becoming homeowners!

The entry level office jobs such as running the copiers or IT help desk or receptionist are the ones with the least flexible scheduling? If you do not already own a car they will not hire you.

Public transit does not service areas with private homes. To make the jump from renter to homeowner, you are required to simultaneously make the jump from public transit to owning and operating a private vehicle.

Jim Crow is smiling on the DOT. There is a reason asphalt is nicknamed blacktop. It is because the family priveleged SUV driving white suburbanites are driving over the tops of the underpriveleged.

If your parents did not hand you a car or a college education on a silver platter, how would you make the move from renting and riding the bus to owning a home and car? The bar is immeasurably high thanks to transportation holding us down.

By Kit

November 11, 2005 11:01 AM | Link to this

Chris and Miles: As long as you have the small minded view that every problem in America is a black/white issue you will always be the losers for it. EVEN IF that were true, which it is not, you need to get beyond that and look for ways in which you can make valuable contributions to our society, which is the most incredible one in the world, instead of whining while you play the race card. I am a “white woman” and I have never been on welfare and I am not a racist who can’t ride public transportation with blacks. Grow up and truly become the men you are capable of being, not simple minded complainers. I have ridden public transportation out of the suburbs for the last 4 years and sit beside every color person on the bus. I have NEVER seen a racial incident on one of our buses. There needs to be many times the number of buses we presently have because the buses and parking lots currently are full to overflowing with people standing to ride the bus; and I can assure you it all has to do with avoiding traffic, not black people.

By George

November 11, 2005 11:12 AM | Link to this

*It’s called *”induced traffic.” **

Study after study after study has confirmed it: people have a set tolerance for traffic, and will drive and drive until they meet that threshold.

Adding lanes reduces traffic initially… until people realize that traffic is lighter, and then they will drive more, and will generate more car trips until the traffic returns to its previous level.

As long as the DOT considers streets to be automotive sewers (move it quickly and no clogs), as long as the fire deparments worry more about fire safety and less about pedestrian safety, then we’ll have miserable streets, miserable drivers, miserable pedestrains, and miserable traffic.

By chris

November 11, 2005 11:16 AM | Link to this

The “small minded view that every problem in America is a black/white issue” was the view held by the suburbanites in the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s when Marta was planned and built.

I have not placed this burden upon Atlanta’s transportation myself, and I do not hold this view on other topics.

Transportation in this city, though, is beyond any shadow of a doubt still held up daily due to the white flight of the 1960s and 1970s.

Every time you see red on GeorgiaNavigator.com you can thank the original white flighters and those who perpetuate it on a daily basis with more and more roads contracts for more and more lanes and complexity.

Making a problem bigger and more complex does not solve it!

“More lanes” has not ever been the way to freedom from traffic. Ever! Not once! All this does is relocate traffic jams to the next pinch point.

When shall we set ourselves free of our cages? When shall all citizens be on equal footing regarding mobility and availability to work, regardless of education or previous success?

By KABA

November 11, 2005 11:24 AM | Link to this

Chris, You don’t have a car, so you aren’t on the highways, and yet you talk about all the white’s in SUV’s on the highways. I do commute daily and I see all nationalities and colors on my commutes.

You need to work smarter, and go get some training, so you can get a good job and move beyond your enty level options. ‘Underpriveleged’ is a code word used by clueless ‘victims’ like you who blame the rest of us for your failure to study hard in school so that you can earn a decent living, buy a car, a house, and raise a family. Pick yourself up, get a job, pay some taxes and join the rest of us ‘privileged’ who put ourselves through school, studied, and are working hard to get ahead in our careers. Oh, by the way you may want to thank us for the public assistance you steal from us who are paying taxes to support your worthlessness.

By Becca

November 11, 2005 11:27 AM | Link to this

A rail that runs right up 85 to Gainesville, right up 75 to Acworth or Rome and down 85 and down 75 to the cities out there would be a good start. Gwinnett, Cobb, and Clayton counties are obviously run by morons that think their way is the only way. So, THANK YOU for a two or three hour commute, thank you for road rage, and thank you for all the wrecks. I drove from Lawrenceville to Atlanta DAILY for five years. Gwinnetians are ruled by TARDS. I was one I know. And yes I left and moved INSIDE the perimeter. Rail is the answer. Marta can and should IGNORE the politians and do profit based buisiness. They also should hire people with at least a small amount of CUSTOMER SERVICE skills.Like normal businesses do. But then again fast food restaurants and stores should do that too. I guess maybe everyone is an idiot and that’s why there is never anything done to improve anything in this city.

By KABA

November 11, 2005 11:30 AM | Link to this

BTW Chris, If you can afford a computer, you can save money up for a car.

By James

November 11, 2005 11:30 AM | Link to this

Chris you bigot idiot what do you call black people who live in the same white flight areas? I call them people smarter than your dumb butt who can actually stop whinning and complaining and can get a good job and can buy a house. If you want to blame someone for your shorcoming you ahve two choices: Yourself and the guy you see when you look in the mirror. What a lame excuse, blame whitey.

By chris

November 11, 2005 11:34 AM | Link to this

Mr. Armsby, I assure you that you assume too much. What makes you think I have no car or house or education? My call for equality in local mobility? Must this call come only from the indigent and ignorant?

Your assumptions reveal your inner beliefs.

By ATLborn

November 11, 2005 11:35 AM | Link to this

Adding more lanes alone is not the answer to Atlanta’s traffic woes. We need more lanes, at least 3/4 more freeways and an extensive (and efficient) mass transit system.

Martin and Fred G hit the nail on the head with their commments. Atlanta is too spread out and the infrastructure is too poor for our current bus/train system to work and is not set up so that we can expand it easily. Revolutionary ideas would be needed to expand our mass transit system. Ideas like Hong Kong used to build it’s new airport and the transit system that supported it. Ideas like the Boston tunnel (but done more efficiently).

We need a visionary govenor to drive the changes needed in Atlanta. One that would give MARTA financial support from the state and is willing to make very un-popular decisions. We need a governor that is willing to go against grain and give MARTA the authority to establish train stations in neighborhoods that oppose it.

The same ppl that are initially against MARTA in their neighborhoods would be the first ones to take advantage of it when a train station is placed there.
I’ve seen this happen many times in Atlanta, it happened with the Dunwoody, Sandy Springs and other train stations.
If you build it, they will use it.

By Tom

November 11, 2005 11:37 AM | Link to this

A comparison:

Washington Metro: First service 1976, 106 miles of track, 86 stations, 904 rail cars. It serves a popultation of about 3.5 million.

Marta: First service 1979, 38 stations, 48 miles of track, 350 rail cars. It serves a population of 1.9 million in Atlanta, Dekalb, and Fulton (3.5 - 4 million for the entire metro area).

I find it remarkable how similar these systems are in respect to start date and population served. Metro is adding more stations and miles while Marta is “studying”. Does anyone ever wonder why the leaders of this state “study” so much!?

No light rail or heavy rail extensions to Atlantic Station? Figures….

By Mark

November 11, 2005 11:39 AM | Link to this

I rode Gwinnett County transit for 2 1/2 years before moving up to North Forsyth where I have been riding GRTA for over a year.

The bus system works, but there are just too many people who refuse to give up their vehicles. I did 4 years ago and I have never looked back.

By ATLborn

November 11, 2005 11:45 AM | Link to this

Tom, one of the leaders of the Atlantic Station project wanted a MARTA station for the area but it has been opposed by some of the businesses and residents of Mid-town. MARTA stated that it would take a lot of blasting during night time hours to make way for the tracks, this would of course disturb the residents.

I don’t know why it can’t be done during the day time. I know many folks that work in Mid-town and had to put up with the constant blasting from all of the constuction for the Atlantic Station and other mid town construction projects.

By LHK

November 11, 2005 11:47 AM | Link to this

I’m not sure where all these fabled congestion-reducing new lanes are meant to GO. We’ve got buildings backed up to the edges of most of our major interstates. Face it — Atlanta as we know it today is clogged to the brim with people, and our land use outside of a few urban centers is not fit for mass transit.

As several posters have noted, mass transit works in cities where people live within a finite land space (either by choice or by geographical restriction). We won’t accomplish this in Atlanta unless we dismantle our suburbs. The amount of land between my Roswell Rd. apartment and the nearest train station (North Springs) would likely hold five or six more train stations in a city like New York or Tokyo (a former residence of mine). Of course, neither of those cities have much in the way of trees or parking lots. If we continue to want such things here, we’ll have to deal with things the way they are now: mass transit being useless to many of us, and roads being clogged.

Looking at the comments here, though, I’m seeing there are many people here like me: we don’t live downtown but we don’t want to be as dependent on our cars as we are now. Sadly, the most convenient solution for us may just be to relocate. At least that’ll free up some space for the car-dependent folk who arrive in droves from other places. It floors me that people can feel satisfied with their quality of life when they’re driving an hour (plus) to and from work every day.

By KABA

November 11, 2005 11:49 AM | Link to this

It’s not ‘white flight’ that has populated the metro Atlanta suburbs over the past 40 years. Over half of the folks in the greater metro Atlanta area NOW did not even live in Georgia in the 60’s and 70’s. As business relocated to Atlanta and grew they brought workers with them and attracted others to come live and work here. And FYI there are still a lot of white folks living inside the perimeter, within Atlanta city limits. And I know a lot of black folks that have moved OTP for better schools and neighborhoods, too.

It’s not a racial issue, but it is the arrogance and stupidity of local leaders who fail to coordinate with each other and implement an efficient cross county transportation system. MARTA is not efficiently run, and when Gwinnett rejected MARTA it was because of the COST of extending the line only to Norcross, which would not have served the majority of the county.

The Gwinnett bus system is a start, underserving as it is. Now we need to get the railroads in partnership to start commuter trains form Athens to Atlanta, form Macon to Atlanta, from Chattanooga to Atlanta. If they build it I will ride!

By Kit

November 11, 2005 11:50 AM | Link to this

Chris, what you do not realize is that people are able to discern your lack of education through your use of incorrect grammar and your inability to write proper English. I, like KABA, also believe that part of your frustration stems from you own failures. It is always easier to lay blame on anyone but yourself for your problems. In Georgia, it is very easy to qualify for grants and loans whereby you could get an education that will allow you to lift yourself to a higher social level, so that you will have no need to complain of all the inequities you seem to suffer.

By Lynda Funderburke

November 11, 2005 11:57 AM | Link to this

I live in Lawrenceville off of Highway 29/ Lawrenceville Highway. The closest bus stop to my house is right before Boggs Road and Old Norcross road. Thats about a 4.5 mile walk for me. Im lucky and I have a car but I have a daughter that lives with me that has no car and it really makes it hard to find a job out here or anywhere when you cant get around. Gwinnett needs to come into the present and leave the past where it is. 29 needs a bus line big time. There are so many people just here around me who would ride the bus if it ran over here. But from what I have read and been told they are NOT going to run one on 29 because there is to much traffic on this road. What does it take to get them to see it would be better if the busses were running here.

Another thing about the buses. I lived up in Madison WI for a few years and all of the kids in Middle and high school rode the city bus to and from school with no problems. That would kill a lot of the traffic on most of the roads.

Also why dont they run Gwinnett busses on SUNDAYS????????????They could at least run a short line. There are a lot of things that happen in Atlanta and other places that people what to go to but cant because there is NO GWINNETT bus!!!!!!!

By B. Killebrew

November 11, 2005 12:00 PM | Link to this

edge770…awesome. Couldn’t have said it better myself. I would only have a few modifications, but that is just minor details. Your general, overall idea is totally on point…with real, doable solutions!

Awesome.

By Robert

November 11, 2005 12:00 PM | Link to this

Guys - only one real answer…. subway system. I do not mean pitiful MARTA. I mean a true system like in DC, NY, London, etc. We have to stop with the complainning and argueing and “bite the bullet” and just do it. The other cities of our size can afford it, why can’t we?

By chris

November 11, 2005 12:08 PM | Link to this

Katie,

I expect better than that from you. Please address the issues instead of insulting me.

As you well know, ad hominem will get you nowhere.

By Robert

November 11, 2005 12:08 PM | Link to this

The city of Atlanta (and surrounding counties/cities) study so much because the politicans family members and people that paid money for them to be elected have to have a job. They are “rewarded” by getting these “contracts” to study and study and study while taxpayers pay and pay and pay.

Georgia and Atlanta are so very corrupt!

By KABA

November 11, 2005 12:10 PM | Link to this

Apart from needing better public transportation for commuting around Atlanta, we need it for conventioneers and sports fans and concert goers who travel to Atlanta, and can’t get around without renting a car or taking a dangerous ride in an overpriced taxi. When the visitors arrive here they are met with a crummy MARTA system, that has very limited range, poorly marked stations, no route guides that help locate hotels, restaurants, cultural performance, music or sports venues, no station attendants to help a traveler, or if there is an attendant they cannot help or they are rude!

By Sarah

November 11, 2005 12:13 PM | Link to this

Well stated edge770. People such as Chris go on and on about equality. He no more wants an equal playing field than I want a wart to appear on the end of my nose. With equality, the likes of Chris could not sit around idle all of his life and point the blame finger at others for his personal shortcomings in life. Do you know what personal accountability is Chris? We all equally suffer from poor transporation. I have been a rider on many MARTA buses and trains and as a white woman, I was just as comfortable or unfortable as the black person sitting beside me. We were all on the same ride together.

By KABA

November 11, 2005 12:14 PM | Link to this

Chris, We haven’t aSSumed anything from your insulting comments, and factless rants. We drew conclusions. If you are educated, own a car, and home, then good for you! Too bad your education didn’t expand your narrow bigoted mind.

By B. Killebrew

November 11, 2005 12:18 PM | Link to this

People, please stop attacking chris. The “venom” with which you speak reveals a lot about your true inner bigotry and racist, intolerant views. Blogs are great, but unfortunately it’s a medium that allows cowards to inflict damage with the knowledge that they are fully protected.

Calling chris ignorant and uneducated does not eliminate the racism that exists in Atlanta and with public transportaton. chris is not frustrated with life. You can ask almost any black person who has studied hard, worked hard, become successful and “gone all the way” (like me!) and his/her views would echo chris’s.

Think about it, please. This is the truth.

Now, let’s get back on topic about ATL’s transportation woes. Excellent public transportation is critical to Atlanta’s future success.

By N.Foster

November 11, 2005 12:18 PM | Link to this

I think the railing system needs to be revamped entirely. I just recently started commuting by Marta rail from Douglasville to downtown Atlanta because of rising gas prices. My experience has been nothing but horiible. The Marta rail is late everyday and sometimes the regular routes don’t even show. I have been riding now for about 3weeks and this has been a continuous problem the entire time. All we get is that (We apologize for the delay) over and over anouncements. How about Marta going down on pricing or how about free day commutes like Marta used to do back in the day when I was in High School. Commuters are late for work everyday day Marta isn’t paying commuters for missed time from work. All you hear at the stations are people using Cell phones calling in to their Bosses to let them know that they are running late in frustration. Sometimes I drive in instead of Marta just so that I wouldn’t have to deal with the frustration and it takes less time on Marta. So please tell me really is Marta Smarter. At this point I don’t think so. It’s almost easier to just drive. Also by the way what about the convienence you can never have a comfortable ride because you never can get a seat or what about people constantly trying to sell hot stuff on the train (please keep the stolen goods to yourself)LOL. Marta charges so much but Offers so little. Something needs to change the commute for commuters need to be convienent and much much faster. At this point I am disgusted and think for the amount of money that commuters are charged the service should be better and less frustrating. Also people are having to spending just as much because they are paying for Marta Transporation and also still having to spend on gas just to make it to the Marta Stations may as well drive. Not saving that much.

By KABA

November 11, 2005 12:18 PM | Link to this

Tom, I have ridden the DC subway system and it is light years ahead of Atlanta. They have many more routes, all well marked, and despite the maze of routes, there is always an attendant available on the platforms to help you with directions. DC’s system is very traveler friendly.

By chris

November 11, 2005 12:25 PM | Link to this

Sarah assumes too much as well. What makes you think I have no job or car or home or education, Sarah?

Is it that nobody who has played the game successfully from a position of advantage would ever call for fair rules?

To go back to Katie’s scenario about taking classes and moving on up, how is a person who rides the horrible bus systems here supposed to find time for classes?

A bus commute to work and back can easily be three hours. Throw in a stop at DeKalb Community College and you’ve been on the bus another couple hours.

How can somebody get ahead this way? It is just not possible with that many fewer hours in the day when one is held down by horrible public transit.

If you spend three hours in class and five hours on buses, there’s your 8 hours per day that you should be working.

To work and attend school and ride the bus would require 16 hour days for 4 or 5 years. Who can do that? Hardly anybody.

Our “efficient transportation is for the priveleged” system in Atlanta holds the poor down.

By James

November 11, 2005 12:27 PM | Link to this

B. Killabrew it’s ok if Chris rips people as long as it’s a white guy he is ripping at, right? That’s so Farakaan of you, keep of the good work. Sit around with your 40 oz and your free checks on my tax dollars popping out those kids with names we can’t pronounce (think pronouns people, PRONOUNS)six by six different daddies and play the game ” who my baby daddy..” and blame it all on whitey. Go back to New Orleans, your free ride is over dude.

By Karama Neal

November 11, 2005 12:27 PM | Link to this

I completely disagree that more lanes, better signals and perhaps more cars is the solution. But if you must drive, drive gently.

By KABA

November 11, 2005 12:29 PM | Link to this

B. Killebrew, We are not attacking Chris, rather we are responding to his factless statements and rude bigoted insults. Read his posts again. He is the one who is pointing a finger of blame at ‘white’ folks for the failure of Atlanta’s public transportaion. He is the one hurling insults (blacktop, Jim Crow, privileged etc).

We are here to discuss and debate. Most of us think Chris’s statements are rude and bigoted, and we are calling him on it. Why, if you are educated, do you think it is OK to insult others just because they are of another race? That is bigotry pure and simple. If you hold his views, then you too are bigoted. Figure it out!

I don’t care what color you are, no one has the right to hurl general insults at others just because of skin color. The blame game is immature and unproductive. The respect we show for others is a measure of the respect we have for ourselves.

By chris

November 11, 2005 12:33 PM | Link to this

Chris has not insulted anybody. Chris may be the only person not to have insulted anybody.

Chris has stated that transportation is based in and continues to perpetuate a racist Atlanta. This is the absolute truth.

Others have indeed assumed Chris has no car, no home, no job, no education, and is on welfare. Also it is assumed that Chris is black and bigoted. All of these assumptions are incorrect and reveal the thought processes and inner leaning of those who assume.

I apologize for the bold s characters, but this site is designed to eat the word assume because it has ass in it and then nobody will be able to understand what I am writing.

By Sarah

November 11, 2005 12:39 PM | Link to this

Chris,

You have proved my point. Small narrow minds come in all colors. Have fun playing your little games. After this one, you’re not worth the effort.

By KABA

November 11, 2005 12:41 PM | Link to this

Chris, you are the one who stated (assumed) that ‘whites’ are ‘scared’ of public transportation, because of their racist views. I never assmed you are black, I just concluded from your blame game name-calling that you are a bigot. Your color is irrelevant to this discussion, but your rhetoric is relevant, and is what I take issue with.

By B. Killebrew

November 11, 2005 12:48 PM | Link to this

KABA, just look at the recent comment by your crony, James. Wow.

Enough said.

KABA, please do not reduce racism to simplistic views and incidents. It is a lot that blacks have to overcome in this country and it is not easy, no matter what level one is starting from. Sincerely, you must understand this. You may not realize, but it is very offensive and hurtful for you to simplify a serious issue into shallow statements, generalizations, and “come-backs.” I ask you, please stop. Think about your views, what you are saying, and how damaging you comments can be.

About the topic, there are solutions to Atlanta’s transportation problems. Atlanta could really become a world-class, dynamic, and original city if the our public transportation potential was realized.

By chris

November 11, 2005 12:55 PM | Link to this

It is natural to assume that a person calling for equal mobility for all of Atlanta must be a person who lacks such mobility.

For anyone else to make such a call refutes the notion of class and worth being derived from personal vehicle ownership.

Automobile manufacturers convince you daily that success means a nicer car. Few can help believing this. Start counting the car commercials that you see and hear. After you hit a hundred in a few hours your eyes will start to open. Shoot, your browser is probably even showing you a car commercial right now.

If you cannot be identified as having worth based on your vehicle, how will people know you are not worthless?

You have to stand out on your own two feet, and that can be a hard thing to do.

By Miles

November 11, 2005 12:56 PM | Link to this

I hate to burst your bubble, but I am not Black, I am tri-racial (yes, multiples of ugly looking people), and I wasn’t acknowledging Atlanta’s transportation problem as racist issue, I was acknowleding it as an issue that politics and money has a lot to do with; and just so happen majority of the money and politics are steming from whites! I am sorry if you fail to realize that, but how about going to MARTA’s and/or any of these counties town hall meetings to find out which racial population is doing the complaining about public transportation and trying thier best to prevent it from expanding within their communities. Again, I am not taking sides because I feel as if both sides have their valid arguments in this particular situation, but at the same time you must also recognize and acknowledge part of MARTA’s expansion problems are coming from politics and money… which are stemming from Whites in these communities. Not saying it is a racisit thing, but they just don’t MARTA expanding into their communities. But now they are realizing the transportation problems within their communities and want to start their own transportation to accomodate their own individual needs… (1) To try to ease the traffic within the communities to make travel less hectic and (2) If they are going to have a transportation system coming through their community, they rather established their own system to regulate it and keep the potential money generating within their particular county. So Kit, I am sorry I am nowhere near being a racist, I am just stating facts. And if you fail to realize that, I think you fail to realize this prissy little world you’ve been living in!

By Brian

November 11, 2005 12:57 PM | Link to this

I am a white man that thinks Chris made a comment that is tough for us to hear. Let’s be real. I ride MARTA train but, hardly ever the bus because it is so INFREQUENT. However, I am not so deep in denial as to sit here and write that I do not believe white people white and wealthy black are not turned off by the idea of riding with poor black people. For goodness sake, no one can even recognize that there is at least a little grain of truth in what Chris says? Is it really that much of a stretch? Has the hate and prejudice that created and maintained the Jim Crow laws miraculously disappeared, completely, from the face of Georgia? I mean, c’mon, didn’t we just have to have a fight over the confederate flag on the state flag? Jeez, talk about denial.

That being said, here is my contribution to the real problem posed by Jim Wooten, in his saying that the train and bus is not the way. He is right. I would take the bus if only it were more FREQUENT. Who has time for that crap? Heaven forbid I miss the bus and have to wait another 45 minutes.

Maybe MARTA shouldn’t have spent $190 million dollars on the new fare collection system. Their logic is that they lose $10 million in fare evasion per year. Assuming that is true (which I am not comfortable assuming), it would take 19 years to pay for itself. Why not hire security guys to post at the stations? How long would it take to spend $190 million on them? Ridicilous. They could have spent that money on more bus routes and give people with the means NOT to take the bus a reason to take it - CONVENIENCE!

MARTA has to clean up its own act before they should expect to see much more from the government.

By Brian

November 11, 2005 12:59 PM | Link to this

A* = asSuming

By Brian

November 11, 2005 01:00 PM | Link to this

A* = as-suming (it won’t accept the word)

By KABA

November 11, 2005 01:04 PM | Link to this

B. Killebrew, James is not my ‘crony,’ and I don’t have a clue who he is. I have put in my two cents about what I think should be done to improve our transportation problems, you can read them above.

I am weary of those who reduce any blog to a ‘racist’ issue. My comments have not been as you judged, “shallow” or “generalizations,” nor have they simplified a serious issue. I have only objected to and responded to the bigoted insults and assumptions Chris has made.

We are talking about transportation here, and IMHO Atlanta’s traffic mess has nothing to do with racism. It’s all about the lack of leadership, planning, and cooperation between intergovernmental agencies and state,county and city leaders.

By James

November 11, 2005 01:08 PM | Link to this

B. Killabrew what I said may be harsh but it’s to prove a point. There’s a big pink elephant in the room nowadays and no one wants to mention it. White people, especially white men, are getting fed up with being the blame for all your troubles. It’s not just me, I just have the gonads to say it. It’s all over, and it’s gaining momentum. Watch the news and see how much black crime we have, it’s out of control. Yet all your city leaders are concerned about is if someone mentions the N word, good lord get over it. You sit in your cars and turn up your rap music and every other word is the F word or N word. We are sick of the double standards, we are sick of the non-accountablity, we are sick of being blamed for your personal problems. My neighbor works for one the local news stations and she was told to curtail the number of black crimes they reported that week in the news, she was told to put a whiter face on the crime news. Thats fair and equal, oh yeah.

By Michelle

November 11, 2005 01:09 PM | Link to this

By Becca

November 11, 2005 02:13 PM | Link to this

Michelle, you are right. Brilliant.

By David

November 11, 2005 02:30 PM | Link to this

Michelle is right. We should have choices. If somebody wants to live in a suburb and drive everywhere, then they should have that option. But if somebody wants to live in an urban environment (or even a suburban environment for that matter)and be able to walk, bike or take transit instead, that should be an option as well. Good roads and good transit aren’t mutually exclusive.

Jim Wooten loves to deride planners who want to offer such choices as “social engineers”. In my mind, giving people options is a noble goal towards which we should all work (liberal, conservative, black, white, urban, suburban, whatever). Those who would force people into driving everywhere by not providing alternatives are the ones who are truly guilty of social engineering.

We all will benefit from a world class transit system, even if you’re the type of person who drives everywhere. What is the value of a clean, safe and reliable system in terms of drawing conventioneers and tourists to our region? What is the value of having a fleet of buses or trains ready in the event of the need for a mass evacuation? What is the value of having a “Plan B” for you to get to an important meeting or to catch a flight when a catastrophic accident shuts down the freeway? What is the value of having a way to get around if you suffer a debilitating accident? What is the value of maintaining your freedom as a senior citizen when you no longer have the motor skills to safely operate a car?

Putting all your eggs in one basket (roads) and not providing options is a recipe for disaster. And not giving people options in how to conduct their day-to-day lives is the cruelest form of social engineering I can imagine.

By jim

November 11, 2005 02:56 PM | Link to this

Options are fine and certainly desirable — if the money exists to give you “options” whereever you happen to be in Metro Atlanta to whereever you want to go that day in a time-efficient way. That’s a pipe dream. We have to make choices based on which options serve the most people affordably.

By KABA

November 11, 2005 03:09 PM | Link to this

The Mayor of Atlanta is black, and the Atlanta City Council has a majority of black members as does the MARTA Board. The black community has repesentatives in place in city, county and state government as well. So, if as some say, public transportation has been denied on the basis racism in the past, well it looks to me like there’s no time like the present to demand that these people, who are elected and appointed and supposedly “in charge,” get busy and fix it.

By Ms. S

November 11, 2005 03:51 PM | Link to this

Michelle might I add that MARTA funds were used to throw way over the top holiday parties for the board.Thousand and thousands and thousands of dollars spent. Their children and even some relatives of MARTA received cell phones charged back to MARTA. Who funded these? Personal trainers, hourly paid, came to the offices of the upper tier of MARTA and trained them in their offices. Funded how? By whom? The PR woman MARTA hired was unable to paint a positive picture of all this spending. All the while, we all rode on the same buses and trains and suffered through all the day to day problems that come along with public transporatation. I ask you all, how many upper tier MARTA pesonnel take MARTA to work? Hmm……….?

By Sharon

November 11, 2005 04:02 PM | Link to this

Chris’ original statements may have been crudely stated, but let’s be honest there is absolutely a lot of truth to much of what she wrote. Either some of you are new arrivals to Atlanta or you have short memories but I remember very well when MARTA tried to extend into Gwinnett County and the White people out there voted it down over and over again. There were comments like “We don’t want to bring Atlanta to our county”, “We are trying to get away from ‘those’ people(code for Black people” and “We don’t want to bring the criminal element to Gwinnett(more code)”. These are the comments of the citizens themselves, and it is absolutely fair to bring it up.

Well fast forward 15 to 20 years and guess what? Gwinnett is choking on its own exhaust fumes and the Black people they were trying to get away from moved out there anyway. Now everyone’s frustrated with the traffic? shrug Too bad!

By Keon Johnson

November 11, 2005 04:04 PM | Link to this

There is a conspiracy to get rid of MARTA. I know people hate to hear that word. However I personally believe that to be the case.
1. MARTA has a union in a right to work state…you know that rubs somepeople the wrong way.
2. MARTA gets little to no funds from the state unlike other public transportation entities in other states.
3. Several members on the board of MARTA represent counties that don’t even contribute into the system with the exception of their citizens.

It’s race, politics, class, and money…all these issues are present. In the 80’s white flight into Cobb, Gwinett and Clayton occure, these counties rejecte numerous referendums to add MARTA. In the 90’s the black populations of these counties increased and they STILL denied access to MARTA. In the 90’s and today, the argument no included the expense and fultility of putting money in a failing system. It seems that the state wants MARTA to collaspe before they committ anything towards it. How can you expect a system that it given more and more responsibilities but but less and less money to be efficient? Gwinett was approached mutiple times to have MARTA expanded into is. The voters denied it. The issues were supposedly taxes. However the unlining issues where whites not wanting to have poor blacks have access into their suburban enclaves…and upwardly mobile blacks not wanting to pay more taxes or associate with lower income blacks. I know this from experience. I’m black and my mother moved to Clayton county. When it was time for them to add MARTA she voted it down…her reason was taxes. ( I was shocked at her callous regard for he own situation, a woman with an MBA living in Jonesboro working in Kennesaw!! Yet she didn’t see the need for MARTA!!) People you can’t have it both ways. You want transportation in these outlying couties but you don’t want to pay a 1% tax! Yest the leaders are affraid to be leaders. They allow duplicate service which is far inferior to the system they are attempting to Avoid.

Roy Barnes was about to be a bull dog and push rapid transit down the throats of these fiefdoms. But he lost. His successor has basically erased all the progess done. No extention of rail has been done, the HOV has done, GRTA was revamped and there was talk of creating yet ANOTHER agency to oversee GRTA…and I thought Republican were for less taxes and government. It’s interesting that most of the complaints I’ve seen here have come from counties that don’t contribute financially to MARTA yet feel that the angency should address their needs. It’s interesting that everyone talks about the faults of MARTA but not about the facts. Basically you pay for what you get. We have a system in place that is dying. Fixing it now will save billion later. Question… If MARTA were to declare bankruptcy tomorrow. How do you think that would affect the city or Atlanta, and the State of Georgia. Let’s not talk about the embarassment factor…let talk about the ECONOMIC factor

By James

November 11, 2005 04:08 PM | Link to this

Of course, lets give the execs at MARTA more money, afterall it’s Christmas party season. And we all know New Years is coming up and those pesky holiday pounds will surely show up, so it’s Personal Trainer time. Do people ever learn?

By Keon Johnson

November 11, 2005 04:23 PM | Link to this

I’m sorry I went on a tangent and didn’t even address the issue…buses.

The buses are an actraction because aren’t efficient. How could be fix this? 1. The buses need designated lanes. 2. The lights should be coordinated to be green when they come. 3. We need some express routes for some buses with few stops. 4. The routes should have train stops as their locus. 5. The buses should be used to travel routes over 5 to 10 miles…anything further should be within range of a MARTA station. 6. The transitions should be seemless… No difference bewteen using a bus from CCT, Clayton or Gwinett…which needs to be integrated into the MARTA system. 7. Shuttles/light rail need to be available in the works centers…. Cumberland, Perimeter, Buckhead, Downtown, Midtown. 8. Incetives for density building and penalties for sparse building.

Why we won’t see this happen?… The government and private business consider it to costly!! Also feels to socialistic which, we hate in this country.

By L Stone

November 11, 2005 04:44 PM | Link to this

Keon, as you have time, check out the GRTA website (grta.org). There is a lot of good information in there regarding the Xpress bus services that have been operational for a little over a year now. Frequency of service is 15-30 minutes during peak and most routes are designed to take passengers from outlying counties (Douglasville, Cumming, Conyers, Newnan, Mapton, etc.) directly into Atlanta.

By L Stone

November 11, 2005 04:47 PM | Link to this

Keon, P.S. I meant Hampton, but my fingers are ready for the weekend already. Also, just FYI, these routes serve 9 MARTA train stations.

By Patrick

November 11, 2005 06:14 PM | Link to this

I’m gonna keep this really simple: the automobile is the most energy inefficient mode of travel available today. Period. Automobiles cant hold a candle to electified rail transit, never have and never will. I dont care if it runs on diesel, ethanol, crisco, etc. Not even close. So if you really want to do something about the energy crisis, lets start at where more than half of our current oil consumption is spent: automobile transportation

By Newyorker

November 11, 2005 06:16 PM | Link to this

I live in New York and I have been thinking about moving to Atlanta. I have been researching the traffic issue in Atlanta and from what I have seen, I am not sure I want to move there. Every great city must have mass transit. It is the only way. If Atlanta is to grow and prosper in the future, it needs a unified rail and bus system. Not one that is fragmented by local county politicians and self-interest. Perhaps they could call it “Georgia Metropolitian transit system.” Perhaps the city planners could copy a little from New York or London and do it better.

By B. Killebrew

November 11, 2005 07:03 PM | Link to this

KABA, Read James’s comments. Wow. Are you like him?

About topic… True, every world-class city must have mass transit. And…like Michelle and her people were saying, public transportation is about choices, wherever you live in the metro area. Metro Atlanta could be great, with so many options for living and mobility.

By JAS

November 11, 2005 08:36 PM | Link to this

I have a question. How much more in, say, weekly deductions from your paycheck, would you be willing to pay to give people in Atlanta and surrounding counties choice, meaning more money for roads, more for buses, more for trains, more for bike paths and more for vanpools?

By Mad As Zell

November 11, 2005 09:29 PM | Link to this

I disagree with you Jim. Buses aren’t for emergencies, buses are for jobless sightseers (lol). As for roads, I’m ridin’ till I can’t ride no more (or until the next energy crisis).

By Mad As Zell

November 11, 2005 09:42 PM | Link to this

Well, not every great, world-class city needs mass transit, just look at Los Angeles. Apathy towards mass transit works for them (at least at 4 a.m., anyway because that’s the time of day that you’re least likely to be stuck in gridlock). As for Atlanta we just need to keep widening the roads. Why, GDOT is even planning to widen I-75 North in Cobb County to 20 lanes, that should be the end-all solution to all of our traffic problems. Shouldn’t it? I hope? Maybe?

By Karen Armsby

November 12, 2005 08:49 AM | Link to this

Wow, B. Killebrew, Did you read my comment? As I said it will take cooperation among the elected and appointed leaders of the entire metro Atlanta to fix the transportation problem.

By finch

November 13, 2005 09:34 PM | Link to this

After reading the posts in this blog I am amazed and disappointed by the division among people here. The ad hominem attacks against people assumed to be black are particularly onerous. While I’ve never lived in Atlanta, I have visited many times because I have family with deep roots in the city. In my opinion, it’s divisions along race, class, and county lines doom it from ever acheiving the status of world class city.

For starters, look north. Not to just New York or Chicago (I’ve lived in both cities) and their extensive, 24 hour a day transit systems. Look to Washington, DC, which JFK once described as a city with “southern efficiency and northern charm”, and which, despite that handicap, acheived a transit miracle. It’s a city where I lived and watched Maryland, Virginia and the District literally bury their differences to build a subway and bus system that is the envy of the world. It’s a system that produced explosive growth wherever it went. People put aside nagging questions about race and class and co-operated on a massive undertaking they hoped would benefit everyone. And for the most part, it has.

If anything, Washington’s Metro is a victim of it’s own success. The trains are jammed. Some of the subway corridors (the Orange line along Wilson Boulevard in Arlington comes to mind) could be called overdeveloped. But there’s little doubt in any resident’s mind that the Washington DC area without the Metro would have been far less united, vibrant and prosperous than it is now.

Atlanta can achieve this, too. If Va., Md., and DC can band together to do it, so can Fulton, DeKalb, Cobb, Douglas, Clayton and all the other counties with a stake in Atlanta’s future. Build the Beltline. Run trains and buses more frequently. Formulate a master transit plan that is isn’t just “build more highways”. Get Georgia state funding, tapping gasoline, sales and income taxes. It’s a dirty job, but somebody’s got to do it, and if you build it, they WILL come.

By KABA

November 14, 2005 07:53 AM | Link to this

finch, You are exactly right! I lived in the DC area in high school, with no Metro. When I returned years later I was delighted by the extent of the system, the well marked stations, the presence of attendants on the platforms, ready to guide a visitor, and trains running on time. MARTA has had plenty of time to accomplish the same task within its service area, but hasn’t, and the surrounding counties are reluctant to trust the MARTA management. Maybe GRTA is the answer to provide a state organized, funded and hopefully efficient system of bus, passenger rail, and light rail.

By M

November 14, 2005 11:06 AM | Link to this

I have ridden MARTA for 22 years as my sole means of transportation. I think that one to the main issues with the development of a efficient transportation system in this area is definitely tied to the correlation of class and race to the need for public transportation. It has been my experience that many people in the ATL area view public transportation as the “poor man’s cadillac”; whereas in other developed metropolitan areas public transportation is more often viewed as an expedient means of commuting. And face it, black or white-the South does not have a very good history of dealing equitable and respectfully with any one classified as “poor”.

Also, I am very much aware of the history behind the original 5 county MARTA plan, and how it was voted down in those areas where the residents did not want the “undesirables” to have access through public transportation to those counties. Again, the association of a perceived threat by class and race (poor and black) determined the how people in those areas voted. But now, each of these counties is attempting to create a public transportation system that needs to feed into MARTA to work.

The issues of race and class have effected the initial development and perception of MARTA as the ATL’s public transportation system. Issues of race and class continue to impact on its development. But mostly it is class that sets the prevalent tone about public transportation in the ATL-as long as MARTA and other pubic transportation systems are seen as the “poor man’s cadillac” then nothing will be done to make it more efficient and convenient to use.

After all, this is the South where appearance is everything-and for goodness sake,no one wants to appear to be poor!!!

By Mad As Zell

November 14, 2005 05:56 PM | Link to this

If there is to be improved transportation planning in Atlanta there will have to be some type of cooperation between the more than two-dozen county governments and dozens more of city, town and village governments that make up the Atlanta Metro area. The leadership for increased cooperation between governments must and start with the Atlanta’s mayor’s office and the Commissioners of the core counties of the metro area: Fulton, Dekalb, Cobb, Gwinnett, Clayton and Henry Counties. Start out first by involving the county and city governments in the six core counties where the traffic issues are the worst. Get the governments of outlying areas with large percentages of commuters into the core counties (for a small example, Forsyth, Hall and Fayette Counties) later after building a successful transportation model in the six core counties. This type of cooperation is all but impossible at the moment in the current political climate. The Atlanta area has gotten so big that it is difficult to tell where its true boundaries are. Some counties are considered by the US Census Bureau to be apart of the metro area but aren’t don’t consider themselves to be apart of the metro area politically or socially (Dawson and Bartow Counties, for example). Other counties within the core have never had a good history of cooperation despite being located right next to each other (see the sometimes hostile disagreements between Cobb and Fulton Counties over the widening of Johnson Ferry Road where someone assumed to be from Cobb shot at a stoplight that had assumed to be tampered with by the Fulton government to purposely back up traffic into Cobb or the chilly sometimes non-existance relationship between Dekalb and Gwinnett Counties despite sharing a common border). In many localities in the area the prevailing additude is to be as politically detached and as polarized from neighboring counties and (especially) Atlanta as possible. It is this “sibling rivalry” between cities and counties that has helped traffic, overdevelopment and crime to deteriorate to the point that it has in some areas (highways and surface streets stretched to the braking point with heavy rush-hour traffic, almost non-enforcement of traffic violations areawide and increasing crime, more frequently violent, in urban and suburban areas). United we stand, divided we fall. See what failure to work and cooperate together has gotten us all Atlanta.

By M

November 15, 2005 09:12 AM | Link to this

Mad As Zell:

You are so very right. Much of what stagnates progressive development in the designated ATL Metro area is based upon what I call the “clan/shire” mentality-our group(people),our jurisdiction, our rule and law. The ATL Metro area has grown from a mass of locally ruled jurisdictions abutting each other to a melding sprawl of codependent counties without borders.

The various governmental agencies (state, county, city, etc.)and all other pertinent entities and individuals need to move beyond the historical paradigm of the “clan/shire” mentality. They need to become a more cohesive, comprehensive and cooperative consortia in order to more effectively develop the ATL Metro area’s shifting demographics and growth trends.

Good luck, Bubba ain’t budging buddy. Pass the beer…

By Mad As Zell

November 15, 2005 10:31 AM | Link to this

The biggest problem with local agencies seems to be lack of oversight from the state level. This seems to be especially true for MARTA, the Fulton County Sheriffs Department and the Fulton County Commission. MARTA could have all of the money in the world, but with no oversight of the funding or accountability for the money, service would still be very much in question such as it is today as we see that the leadership of these agencies pretty much overspends and misuses public money as much as they can without correction (which is obvious because in the case of marta and Fulton County, the money sure as hell isn’t being spent on public services).

By M

November 15, 2005 12:19 PM | Link to this

Mad As Zell:

True, true indeed. But, alas, what to do??? The MARTA and the county agencies that you named are only a few of the many that lack overall management accountability. And yes, this does indeed contribute to bad resource management and development, misuse of funds, etc.

But how can we expect any effective oversite from the State when they same mind over matter mentality exists there too??? Six of one, half dozen of another.

I tole’ ya dat Bubba man, he ain’t budgin’ and Leroy dun sat next ta’im too. Ain’t nam one goin’ no wheres. Two peas in the pod dey be-or more like to pigs over a pork barrel getting fat. And as long as Bubba and Leroy can each play the race/class card, nothing will ever change to more effectively use designated monetary resouces to improve ATL Metro in terms of public transportation services.

By Mad As Zell

November 15, 2005 08:27 PM | Link to this

M:

I agree that the state has the same problems with oversight and accountabilty. Future traffic jams of bibical proportions just may be the thing that forces governments at all levels in Atlanta to change their misguided ways. When traffic becomes extremely bad, commuters and their employers will demand alternatives to the car alone. Especially on those days when a overpass jumper (what does that suicide jumper care? he’s pretty much planning his last rush-hour anyway) or horrendous accident turns the freeways into parking lots and the resulting lengthy traffic delays increasingly causes losses of time and money for the company.

I agree with Jim that improvements like added lanes and smart signals need to be made to the roads, but any planning for transportation improvements needs to incorporate a regional approach to improvements to not only the roads but also the trains and buses. With a population of approximately five-million and rapidly growing we’re going to have congestion no matter what is done, it’s just a matter of providing alternatives (especially on really bad traffic days) so that we can still move around in some way, shape or form especially with a staggering population growth rate of between 100,000 and 200,000 newcomers a year. With that kind of crush of cars being added to the roads each year we’re running the risk of seeing the roads reach the breaking point at a not-too-distant point in the future while not having the funds readily available to make immediate improvements as conditions demand them (most big road improvement projects won’t start until 2010 or later at current pace and its likely that we’ll see an additional 500,000 to one-million more newcomers to the metro area with the current rate of population growth).

Unfortunately, we’ll probably have to get out of the habit of expecting world-class rapid transit service from funding from regional taxes and low fares. A 1% sales tax in Dekalb and Fulton Counties and $1.75 fare on MARTA is going to get us as far as were getting now. If we want expanded service that goes almost everywhere at all times of day we are going to have to be willing to pay for it at the fare box because adding sales taxes on energy and other goods are just simply unacceptable to the populace.

I myself would be willing to pay up to $8-a-day, BUT NOT A PENNY MORE (for example, $4 for a half-day pass or around $6 for an all-day, go anywhere, systemwide pass), for a world-class subway, bus and commuter rail system to get around (a system akin to D.C.’s METRO, which uses increased pricing during peak periods of heavy use, in concert with a commuter rail system like Northern Virginia’s VRE (Virginia Rail Express) which lets commuters choices and options to avoid oft-gridlocked interstates like I-95 in and out of D.C. during rush-hour). Lets say, for example, I was in a situation where I had to drive 50 miles to work in the city in an office building where I had to pay for parking my automobile about $10-$15-a-day in a garage or lot. If I pay $6 for an all-day transit pass, that saves me money just paying for that pass ($30-a-week) instead of paying for parking ($50/week at $10/day) and gas (average of at least $65/week at average use of 20 miles-a-gallon).

A slightly higher rate at the fare box also ensures that after initial start-up costs, only people who ride rapid transit pay for it, so that someone who drives often and rarely uses buses or trains will only pay for transit when they use it, not with nearly tapped-out gas taxes through which road maintenance and improvements are heavily dependent upon or additional regional sales taxes that most voters are staunchly opposed to (ah, only charging the people use it, a novel idea indeed).

But the key has to be some type of oversight of that additional funding that would come from increased fares (unfortunately that might require some type of regional cooperation of local governments for start-up funding and that might nix the regional transit idea before it even starts). In Jim Wooten’s “MARTA Service Is Good, But Too Much Baggage” blog, A blogger by the name of Joe suggested shifting oversight authority of all regional rapid transit systems to an independent auditor. If I could be sure that my money is going to improving and maintaining a high-level of service and not to pay for personal trainers and exclusive parties while trains and buses fall apart and arrive late with poorly-trained and rude drivers (as in the case of MARTA) then I would gladly pay a little more for premium commuting options.

Now tolls on new all-purpose lanes and HOV lanes that is another blog altogether. But one of the points is that if we want to get there faster on mass transit and highways in Atlanta, we are going to have to pay more in fares and tolls because gas taxes can hardly pay to maintain the current roads. Trying to stretch gas taxes to pay for quick road and rapid transit improvements on a large-scale just isn’t possible. We are also going to have to demand greater accountablility and oversight to make sure that the money we are spending now and in the future isn’t being wasted and misspent while we sit in gridlock on deteriorating roads. It will be a difficult task, but I think that we are up to it because our sanity depends on it.

By SUZAN

November 16, 2005 08:42 AM | Link to this

YES THEY MUST BE THE WAY! We have to begin to create a system in in Atlanta and even the state that allows for people to et around some other way than driving. In New York and Washingtion DC the trains and buses can get you anywhere with minimal difficulty. We need to beging to work towards goals like that in Atlanta. The last stats I read on Georgia’s growing population is an average of 350,000 new families a year are moving to Georgia. If each family has only 3 members thats very clse to a million people a year. We must do something about trasportation in our cities.
I started riding MARTA in August of this year due to gas cost. I walk 1.5 miles to and from MARTA daily, I am white and 48 years old. I have no problems with anyone on MARTA, my commute is two hours long and I am saving about 3,000.00 a year on gas now. This year it will help pay my Gas bill for home heating since it went from 89.9 per therm to 149.9 per therm. My husband thinks im a hero and I feel much better now that Im getting 3 mies of excercise a day. Yes it is time we got out of our cars and onto public transportation. It just makes sense. If the public would take the plunge perhaps the state of Georgia would step up to the plate and start working towards more reliable and east to use public transportation

By M

November 16, 2005 08:54 AM | Link to this

Mad As Zell:

I truly appreciate your in depth knowledge about the subject matter. You are very well informed on the situation and you also have some very sound reasoning and responses in all pertinent areas of concern. It is just unfortunate that the most beneficial overall planning structure is too often mangled and convoluted in the “policies of political engagement”.

Again, it reflects back on the need for all regional governing bodies (elected and appointed) to come under some more explicit and cohesive guidelines that would most greatly benefit the ALT Metro as a whole in its growth and development, not just the pieces and the parts (each individual county, etc.) doing its own thing, so to speak. Historically, Southern culture is so traditional and static. The institutionalized political protocol that is so prevalent in the South will be slow to change.

The ATL Metro is definitely a case study of regional development that has been poorly planned and executed. And now it is totally out of control and rolling. The latent existence of any effective regional planning authorities came a day late and a dollar short, as well as tossing the baby out with the bath water too. They are now trying to play catch up in the game. Good luck to that idea.

Unfortunately, the high demand to live in the ALT Metro has increased the demand and supply of the region. This increase also means more in the way of taxed goods, services and property if the region is going to meet the demands of this continued growth-as well as the concomitant positive and negative aspects inherent in all regional population increases. Any planned development in the ATL Metro to effect that means and end may to tantamount to trying to tame a shrew.

By Mad As Zell

November 16, 2005 10:49 PM | Link to this

Hey M (and anybody else that wants to see):

Go to http://www.nwhovbrt.com/Pages/cncptlo.htm and go into the “I-75 Concept Layout” option to see the Georgia Department of Transportation’s plans to widen I-75 to as many as 26 lanes (13 lanes in each direction) in some places in Cobb County to accommodate new truck-only lanes(TOL) and tolled HOV lanes (HOT lanes). Oh don’t worry, it won’t be that wide throughout the entire project (it narrows down to only 20 lanes north of Delk Road). The width of that planned project will blow your minds (it should definitively be the widest freeway in the world when finished at no less than 20 lanes, 10 in each direction, between I-285 and I-575 when finished).

The number of possible business and residential displacements from this planned widening of I-75 in Cobb County to 20-26 lanes is simply STAGGERING.

By M

November 17, 2005 08:33 AM | Link to this

Mad As Zell:

I will have to check that out. Of course, what really concerns me is the last statement that you made regarding the potential displacement of commercial and residential property along the designated areas of road widening.

The impact such changes would have to the overall character and quality of the surrounding neighobors and business districts. Trade offs rule!!! The quantity of expansion always impacts on the quality of the environment. Welcome to metropolitan living in Century XXI.

By Mad As Zell

November 17, 2005 03:05 PM | Link to this

I mean, I’m not against widening or making necessary improvements to roads, but 20 to 26 lanes through an established area of businesses and homes seems kind of excessive doesn’t it? Maybe it’s just me that thinks that and maybe not? 20 TO 26 LANES???? Seems like we are getting a little carried away because never in my wildest dreams did I think that someone could try to make a road that wide, a reality. I didn’t even think that roads could be that wide, but I guess that I am wrong.

20 to 26 lanes, that seems like that would be like taking a huge buzzsaw to the community. I mean, if that is all that I can get in the way of road improvements, I’ll take it, but have we fully explored all of our options? Were any other options even explored or did GDOT (heavily influenced by, in this case obviously, very, very, VERY POWERFUL private road building interests) just immediately arrive at the conclusion of “Oh yeah that I-75 could be a problem. Looks like we’ll need 26 lanes, built by a private for-profit road builder with friends in high-up places in state government to fix that”?

By M

November 17, 2005 04:52 PM | Link to this

Maybe it is just a projection type plan. Or perhaps it will some day in the not too distant future become a reality. If is not what they people want, then the people need to get up off of their duffs and become an active voice of concern.