Thinking Right

By Ragnar Danneskjöld

December 30, 2008 8:06 AM | Link to this

Good morning all. I am unpersuaded that college tuition, grants, or loans are a proper expenditure of taxpayer funds. I am unpersuaded that college itself is necessary for an intelligent and/or productive life, especially if the student studies anything other than a hard science or a business-related curriculum. “I want” is not a sufficient justification for compelling a taxpayer subsidy. My conservatism will never be called “compassionate,” i.e., irrational. College subsidies are no more productive use of taxpayer funds than are expenditures for the US Department of Energy or the Department of Agriculture. Most academia is “counting angels dancing on the head of a pin” and is unworthy of taxpayer subsidy. I would allow the unsubsidized market to work; useless fields would thereafter disappear.

I acknowledge that I had a government grant equal to 10% of my undergraduate tuition, and a government-guaranteed loan in the amount of one year’s tuition for law school. Our blog’s leftists would call my position “hypocrisy,” but of course such inherently-deficient minds do not even know the definition of the word. For the lesser lights here, just tell yourself I am smarter now than I was then. The Lt JG covered his own out-of-state tuition with an ROTC scholarship, thus working his way through college, with only minimal financial support from his father. (Such opportunities are broadly available to all with two-part SAT scores above 1500. Mine was a mere 1410.) When he emerged from college without debt, essentially self-made, and with only an honorable service obligation to his country, he proved himself more worthy than his father.

By Redneck Convert

December 30, 2008 8:08 AM | Link to this

Well, I never was much for schooling. I never made it out of the 5th grade and it never hurt me none. Danged multiplying tables. But if you are going to have kids going to colledge, it’s alot better to make them pay loans back than just give them a bunch of money. This way maybe we can get kids that ain’t pointy-heads with big grades to go to colledge so the colledges won’t be turning out nothing but a bunch of libruls. The kids that don’t got big grades are likely rednecks, and you can’t turn a GA redneck into a librul. Plus these loans are more like the Free Innerprize system where people develop a good sense of money and learn that nothing ain’t free.

Anyhow, it ain’t fair to just pour the money on the pointy-heads and leave the kids with other things to do in school, like NASCAR and chainsaws and running around, without a penny. So I’m all for this loan program. It sounds like a good solid Republican idea. Every kid can’t be a star student and besides where’s the next bunch of politicans in the House and the Senate going to come from if we don’t turn out some kinda dull students that don’t think all the time?

Have a good day everybody.

By Road Scholar

December 30, 2008 8:22 AM | Link to this

If a gift is given to a private school, can it be “accounted” as a part of their child’s tuition?

$500,000 per year does not seem to be enough to fully fund the loan program. Presently, the costs of in state tuition is unreasonably low when compared to the costs of supplying college ciriculum. I think the out of state tuition is much larger ($7500 IS/ $25,000 OS). The OS tuition is about right when compared to other major colleges, while the IS is low. The Legislature has kept the IS tuition low to allow for the HOPE money to go further, but it is not funding the fair share of IS costs.

Once the student graduates, is there a defined pay back period? Or are there larger penalties for default?

By Bo Chambliss LOBBYIST

December 30, 2008 8:29 AM | Link to this

In its efforts to stop amateur rockets from nagging the residents of some of its southern cities, Israel appears to have given new life to the fledging Islamic movement in Palestine.

For two years, the Islamic Resistance Movement (known by its Arabic acronym, Hamas) has been losing support internally and externally. This wasn’t the case in the days after the party came to power democratically in early 2006; despite being unjustly ostracized by the international community for its anti-Israeli stance, Hamas enjoyed the backing of Palestinians and other Arabs. Having won a decisive parliamentary majority on an anti-corruption platform promising change and reform, Hamas worked hard to govern better than had Fatah, its rival and predecessor.

Things began to sour when Hamas violently seized control of Gaza, but even then, Hamas enjoyed considerable domestic support — and much goodwill externally. Then the movement turned down every legitimate offer from its nationalist PLO rivals and Egyptian mediators to pursue reconciliation, and support for it began to slip.

Things got worse in November when a carefully planned national unity effort from the Egyptians failed because, at the very last minute, Hamas’s leaders refused to show up in Cairo. Failure to accept this roundtable invitation greatly upset the Egyptians, and they and other Arab leaders scolded Hamas publicly. Omar Suleiman, the head of the Egyptian intelligence service who was organizing the meeting, termed Hamas’s reasons for rebuffing the invitation “unwarranted excuses.” Hamas sought for its leader a seating position equivalent to the Palestinian president’s, and it wanted Hamas security prisoners held in the West Bank to be released. Palestinian nationalists insist that Hamas’s rejection of unity talks was solely to avoid the PLO’s demand for new presidential and parliamentary elections.

A poll carried out afterward by the Jerusalem Media and Communications Center showed that most Palestinians blamed Hamas for the failure of the talks. The survey, which was sponsored by the German Fredrich Ebert Foundation, found that 35.3 percent of respondents believed Hamas bore more responsibility for the stalemate. Fatah was blamed by 17.9 percent, and 12.3 percent said both Fatah and Hamas were responsible.

The lack of international support since the 2006 elections, followed by this rebuff to Gaza’s only Arab neighbor, Egypt, compounded the deterioration of Hamas’s internal support. By November, the survey showed, only 16.6 percent of Palestinians supported Hamas, compared with nearly 40 percent favoring Fatah. The decline in support for Hamas has been steady: A year earlier, the same pollster showed that Hamas’s support was at 19.7 percent; in August 2007, it was at 21.6 percent; in March 2007, it was at 25.2 percent; and in September 2006, backing for the Islamists stood at 29.7 percent.

That’s why, as the six-month cease-fire with Israel came to an end, Hamas calculated — it seems correctly — that it had nothing to gain by continuing the truce; if it had, its credentials as a resistance movement would have been no different from those of Mahmoud Abbas’s Fatah. Unable to secure an open border and an end to the Israeli siege, while refusing to share or give up power to Abbas, Hamas could have had no route to renewed public favor.

For different reasons, Hamas and Israel both gave up on the cease-fire, preferring instead to climb over corpses to reach their political goals. One side wants to resuscitate its public support by appearing to be a heroic resister, while the other, on the eve of elections, wants to show toughness to a public unhappy with the nuisance of the Qassam rockets.

The disproportionate and heavy-handed Israeli attacks on Gaza have been a bonanza for Hamas. The movement has renewed its standing in the Arab world, secured international favor further afield and succeeded in scuttling indirect Israeli-Syrian talks and direct Palestinian-Israeli negotiations. It has also greatly embarrassed Israel’s strongest Arab neighbors, Egypt and Jordan.

While it is not apparent how this violent confrontation will end, it is abundantly clear that the Islamic Hamas movement has been brought back from near political defeat while moderate Arab leaders have been forced to back away from their support for any reconciliation with Israel.

By choosing the waning days of the Bush administration to attack Gaza, the Israelis knew they would face no opposition from the leader of the so-called war on terrorism. Just as George W. Bush’s misadventure in Iraq played into the hands of radicals and terrorists, this Israeli action will produce nothing less than that in Palestine. Let us hope that the Obama administration will see the consequences of what is not only a crime of war but also a move whose results are exactly the opposite of its publicly proclaimed purposes.

By Churchill's MOM

December 30, 2008 8:33 AM | Link to this

Jim this should be what you are writting about, have you turned big government LIBERAL?

Bristol Palin gives birth to son

This just in: Sarah Palin’s teenage daughter, Bristol, has given birth to a son, according to an online report by People magazine.

Bristol Palin, 18, gave birth on Sunday and named the boy Tripp Easton Mitchell Johnston, the magazine reported. He came into the world weighing 7 pounds and 4 ounces.

Colleen Jones, Bristol’s grandmother’s sister, told People that “the baby is fine and Bristol is doing well.”

By Road Scholar

December 30, 2008 8:37 AM | Link to this

RD: So tax breaks for the rich and businesses are ok to stimulate the economy by trickle down, but collecting revenue expressly for the education of college students is not? The return on the investment of home growing the intellectual and technical talent is huge for this state. The benefit of increased salaries and the receipt of taxes from the better paid citizens helps the state pay for the needs of all of the public.

The HOPE scholarship should already be the motivation of teens to get a chance at a “better” life. If only the C students or worse had the vision, dedication, discipline… etc. that the B+ students have, Maybe they would not need additional assistance. In my family there was no debate on whether we went to college; the only decision was where!

By Curious Observer

December 30, 2008 8:38 AM | Link to this

Au contraire, Ragnar. Investing in the future of this country by helping citizens of this country to acquire a college education is precisely what government should be doing. Where would we be today without the post-World War II GI bill, which helped hundreds of thousands to pursue college degrees? I assert that we would still be a backward country, bereft of the terrific advances we have made since 1945. And government loans and investments in graduate fellowships have furnished the intellectual infrastructure that has underpinned our society since the late 1950s. The chances are good that some of your own college and law school professors attained their positions partially by virtue of government-funded support programs.

We have made a horrific mistake by essentially eliminating this kind of federal government support in the past fifteen years. The choking restrictions on Pell grants and other means of government support for college education are returning us to a two-tier society, wherein the poor are getting closed out of college while the upper middle class and the upper class see the doors opening even wider.

At the same time, I’m not at all certain that the loan programs about which Wooten writes won’t encourage many students who are not college material to clog up Georgia’s colleges and universities. I’m a retired college professor who has taught hundreds of Hope Scholarship beneficiaries. In the main, with a few shining exceptions, if they’re the best we can do for honor students, I hate to think about the caliber of students who may take advantage of the loan programs.

By Leon

December 30, 2008 8:45 AM | Link to this

Rag…..Thanks for my daily dose of condescending piffle.

By NappyD

December 30, 2008 8:50 AM | Link to this

How about adding in incentives for kids to take internships and gain WORK EXPERIENCE BEFORE GRADUATING ?

Not sticking around on mom & dad’s dime for 6 years is all well & good, but it’s even better if people graduate and can transfer into the job market, without having to hustle & wait tables for half a year before finding something because of that lack of “work experience” that HR types seem to value over talent.

Also, why not introduce a bill requiring state schools to limit admission of international students? Not to sound “too Republican”, but they come here, to state schools no less, get an education, then return to home countries, and then jobs get outsourced overseas. And people are left blaming everyone but the schools for allowing that to happen. Go figure.

By Ga Values

December 30, 2008 9:16 AM | Link to this

The GI bill created the backbone of the US’s middle class after WWII. Many of my father’s friends, sucessful businessmen, would have never been able to go to college without them.

I think it is a parent’s responsibility to pay for their childeren’s education. We saved & had the money to pay for all 3 childeren’s educations. Our youngest went to UGA on a full scolarship + hope so she was basically cost free. I think that most scolarships and HOPE in particular should be means tested, I could have paid for our childeren’s tuition, but our childeren worked hard in high school and thought that they had earned scolarships.

“Curious Observer” is certainly correct that Georgia schools graduate many students that are unfit for college. Georgia’s public school system is a joke but there is not the political will to attack the gross mismanagement in the school system.

By catlady

December 30, 2008 9:23 AM | Link to this

The current HOPE program already rewards quite a few marginal students—marginal educationally or marginal in terms of willingness to work. Hence the number (one third?) who “lose” HOPE after a year. I would never support using lottery money to fund kids even more marginal (no 3.0 in high school) to do anything.

If there is a surfeit of money, let’s use it wisely to promote HIGHER scholarship, not less scholarly students.

TIC: Since the authors of the proposed new legislation want to encourage more students to attend, let’s just throw open the doors completely: HOPE for all high school grads to go to any public in-state college that will accept them. But make it retroactive. You get paid back the money from your pocket (or your loan is repaid) AFTER you show you can “make it” in college. No more “year to try it out” nonsense. Of course, that would even more acutely transfer the grade inflation from high school to college, and put more pressure on the state to fund its share of all the extra “scholars” who try it out, and more pressure on the colleges to create classes that would help students fatten their gpas. Maybe not such a good idea after all.

Actually, I think the state would benefit more by tying the SAT/ACT to the 3.0 HOPE qualifying gpa. I had an internship in a large (out of state) admissions office and you would be incredulous to see how many 4.0s I would see who could only manage a 950 on the SAT. Now, that tells you SOMETHING was wrong! The number of HOPE scholars who needed remedial classes was another indicator.

The state wastes too much taxpayer money funding the “year to try it out” for marginal students. The share of cost of the education minus tuition (whether paid by HOPE or student loans) is quite high. Do you think you should pay over $15,000 per year in taxpayer subsidy for your neighbor’s 18 year old to drink and party and sleep late? ‘Cause, with HOPE, for every kid who gets HOPE that first year but can’t cut it,you are paying that money. One out of three. Think about it.

HOPE should be reserved for TRUE scholars. For the others, we have low (compared to the total cost) taxpayer-subsidized tuition. Let those who are marginal earn their way in to HOPE by making the grades in college.

I suspect the legislators involved had a relative who had a 2.8 and was mad about not qualifying for HOPE.

I agree that the state should be pressuring kids to graduate on time. The state first has to do its part, however, in making sure that majors don’t continue to add required hours to their program, and that the entry level classes students need are available to them. They also need to effectively discontinue the dropping of classes that students do to avoid lowering their HOPE gpa. Those three things would speed the process along, although it is admittedly a national trend for degree completion to take longer. (My kids, at expensive private colleges, all graduated on time. They had a strong incentive to.)

On encouraging public service, which generally pays lower, we need to have folks who are truly called to teaching, etc. I think partial loan dismissals after 5 years and whole loan forgiveness after 10 years would be great. We just cannot afford it.

On the law enacted last year: I am also,probably needless to say, against allowing folks to pre-designate their state tax money to go for private school scholarships. That means more of a tax burden on the rest of us to pay for roads, prisons, medical care, etc. to take up the slack for the pre-diverted money. If you wish to endow a scholarship for a private school on top of your state taxes for the general welfare, go ahead.

By Bo Chambliss LOBBYIST

December 30, 2008 9:28 AM | Link to this

Israel must defend itself. And Hamas must bear responsibility for ending a six-month cease-fire this month with a barrage of rocket attacks into Israeli territory. Still we fear that Israel’s response — devastating airstrikes that represent the largest military operation in Gaza since 1967 — is unlikely to weaken the militant Palestinian group substantially or move things any closer to what all Israelis and all Palestinians need: a durable peace agreement and a two-state solution.

Israel must make every effort to limit civilian casualties. Hamas’s leaders, especially those safely ensconced in Damascus, are unconcerned about their people’s suffering — and masters at capitalizing on it.

Before the conflict spins out of control, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and other Arab countries will have to find ways to cajole or more likely threaten Hamas (or its patrons in Syria and Iran) to accept a new cease-fire.

President Bush and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice should be pressing Cairo and Riyadh to use all of their influence with Hamas, and they should be pressing Israel to exercise restraint.

By Monday, some 350 Palestinians — mostly Hamas security forces — were reported killed. A Hamas security compound was among dozens of structures pummeled in the attacks, and the group’s leaders were supposedly driven into hiding. The Israeli defense minister, Ehud Barak, promised a “war to the bitter end.”

We hope he does not mean a ground war. That, or any prolonged military action, would be disastrous for Israel and lead to wider regional instability. Mr. Barak and Israel’s foreign minister, Tzipi Livni, both candidates to succeed Prime Minister Ehud Olmert in elections set for February, must not be drawn any further into a competition with the front-runner, Benjamin Netanyahu, over who is the biggest hawk.

There can be no justification for Hamas’s attacks or its virulent rejectionism. But others must also take responsibility for the current mess. Hamas never fully observed the cease-fire that went into effect on June 19 and Israel never really lived up to its commitment to ease its punishing embargo on Gaza. When the cease-fire ran out, no one, including the Bush administration, made a serious effort to get it extended.

Meanwhile, the peace process Mr. Bush launched with such fanfare in Annapolis last year is moribund. There is plenty of blame to go around for that, too. Mr. Olmert’s government failed to halt settlements and give the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas — Hamas’s sworn enemy — the support he needed. Mr. Bush refused to press Mr. Olmert to do what was needed but politically unpalatable. Arab leaders never did enough to boost Mr. Abbas, or to persuade or pressure Hamas to cut its ties with Iran and join peace efforts.

Ms. Rice once hoped to make a Middle East peace her legacy. It is too late for that. But she should do her job. That means getting on a plane for Cairo and Riyadh — now — to enlist their help in brokering a new cease-fire. Then it will be up to President-elect Barack Obama to quickly pick up the pieces and fashion a Middle East peace strategy that may actually bring peace.

By Bill Miller

December 30, 2008 9:32 AM | Link to this

Bo Chambliss LOBBYIST 8:29 AM

The American people did not elect Barack Obama to settle a thousands year old dispute in the Middle East. He has no mandate for that. We elected Obama to fix America. Did anyone else notice how Israeli officials have descended on all the talk shows to sell this new war? The American people deserve to know the truth about how much money our government is spending per capita in Israel versus how much it is spending here at home. I won’t run the numbers for everybody, but in my view at least the comparison makes the proposed economic stimulus package seem like a joke. Whose country is this anyway?

By catlady

December 30, 2008 9:36 AM | Link to this

The current HOPE program already rewards quite a few marginal students—marginal educationally or marginal in terms of willingness to work. Hence the number (one third?) who “lose” HOPE after a year. I would never support using lottery money to fund kids even more marginal (no 3.0 in high school) to do anything.

If there is a surfeit of money, let’s use it wisely to promote HIGHER scholarship, not less scholarly students.

TIC: Since the authors of the proposed new legislation want to encourage more students to attend, let’s just throw open the doors completely: HOPE for all high school grads to go to any public in-state college that will accept them. But make it retroactive. You get paid back the money from your pocket (or your loan is repaid) AFTER you show you can “make it” in college. No more “year to try it out” nonsense. Of course, that would even more acutely transfer the grade inflation from high school to college, and put more pressure on the state to fund its share of all the extra “scholars” who try it out, and more pressure on the colleges to create classes that would help students fatten their gpas. Maybe not such a good idea after all.

Actually, I think the state would benefit more by tying the SAT/ACT to the 3.0 HOPE qualifying gpa. I had an internship in a large (out of state) admissions office and you would be incredulous to see how many 4.0s I would see who could only manage a 950 on the SAT. Now, that tells you SOMETHING was wrong! The number of HOPE scholars who needed remedial classes was another indicator.

The state wastes too much taxpayer money funding the “year to try it out” for marginal students. The share of cost of the education minus tuition (whether paid by HOPE or student loans) is quite high. Do you think you should pay over $15,000 per year in taxpayer subsidy for your neighbor’s 18 year old to drink and party and sleep late? ‘Cause, with HOPE, for every kid who gets HOPE that first year but can’t cut it,you are paying that money. One out of three. Think about it.

HOPE should be reserved for TRUE scholars. For the others, we have low (compared to the total cost) taxpayer-subsidized tuition. Let those who are marginal earn their way in to HOPE by making the grades in college.

I suspect the legislators involved had a relative who had a 2.8 and was mad about not qualifying for HOPE.

I agree that the state should be pressuring kids to graduate on time. The state first has to do its part, however, in making sure that majors don’t continue to add required hours to their program, and that the entry level classes students need are available to them. They also need to effectively discontinue the dropping of classes that students do to avoid lowering their HOPE gpa. Those three things would speed the process along, although it is admittedly a national trend for degree completion to take longer. (My kids, at expensive private colleges, all graduated on time. They had a strong incentive to.)

On encouraging public service, which generally pays lower, we need to have folks who are truly called to teaching, etc. I think partial loan dismissals after 5 years and whole loan forgiveness after 10 years would be great. We just cannot afford it.

On the law enacted last year: I am also,probably needless to say, against allowing folks to pre-designate their state tax money to go for private school scholarships. That means more of a tax burden on the rest of us to pay for roads, prisons, medical care, etc. to take up the slack for the pre-diverted money. If you wish to endow a scholarship for a private school on top of your state taxes for the general welfare, go ahead.

By The BlogFather of Scroll

December 30, 2008 10:06 AM | Link to this

I love how America has expectations about the Obama Administration, like he has any control over events set in motion by our First Monkey.

Barack has the wheel in a perfect storm, but it’s up to luck whether our state survives.

The First Monkey doesn’t even know what he’s done, nor will he ever face it when it becomes apparent. There wasn’t supposed to be an Iraq War, or even a Afghan War in 2008. The longer these wars linger the more apt they are to set off a strategic spread, because violence itself begets violence, (the only truth in the entire old testament.)

Israeli goals are a hat-trick of high sticking and icing Hamas. After the invasion of Lebanon, a while ago, everybody thought the arab-israeli conflict had cooled off, and it didn’t even show up on the radar of global crisis monitoring this year at all. I haven’t thought of it in a long time.

Now, we realize for the 4000th time that the Israeli-Arab conflict will continue for another ten thousand years and it could be the final straw that breaks the Bush Camel-back. Iraq. Afghanistan. Hamas. Al Queda. Shia Superstate. ( a term I coined and the world hacked, the dirty rats). Iran. Pakistan. India.

Did you read the set of demands from Hamas published on Al Jeezera? Half of it was stolen directly from my blogs. I mean, I dont mind them being war-mongering she-devils from hell, but stealing material crosses the line. Die, Hamas, Die.

So Bush Camel-toe girl, Bristol Palin, gave birth to a seven pound, four ounce baby seal! (violation of natural law)

Our first monkey’s thoughts and prayers are with the Palin Family, I’m sure. “Nevermind the Hamas War with Israeli,’ our First Monkey said, “Hamas, Hummus, everybody wants to get in the revenge war business. They stole the idea of war from my Iraq Invasion. Hey, Hamas, how about starting a war for an original unjustifiable reason, eh? Anyway, congrats to Bristol Palin and her mother, Sarah Palin and the entire Palin family and all the Indian tribes in the region who give us all the security from Putin rearing his ugly head and doing bad stuff to us, like Sara Palin said during the campaign”

Bush Monkey Rules. Nobody is in charge. We are on our own. World events, warped by Bush/Cheney’s illegal invasion of Iraq, are careening out of control.

We may have days left of these good times. Can you believe that? Things are about to get so bad that THESE are the good old days.

Bush Monkey Rules.

By MyOpinion

December 30, 2008 10:06 AM | Link to this

Catlady: The SAT/ACT should not be tied to the GPA for Hope scholarship for two reasons. 1. The SAT is not an accurate measure for what people know. I made 1160/1600 on the test and I was sleep on three fourths of the exam. For the SAT you need to know how to take the exam, versus the actual amount of information you might know. For the SAT if you know that you are deducted points for the wrong answer, you know not to answer the question if you are not at least 75% sure of the answer. Although I took the exam in 2003 and 2004 it is the same concept now. 2. The ACT does not deduct points but if you guess the right answer, that will increase your score although you do not know or understand over 50% of the exam.

Nappy D: Right now I’m a senior in a Co-Op, have HOPE and a few other grants and loans and I just have enough money to pay for college tuition and housing as an in-state student. My roommate has a co-op, she had HOPE until this year, (still has a 3.0), and she took out loans, but she still have to rely on her parents to help pay for college. The government only allow students to take between 2500-5000 a year in subsidize loans (depending upon you level), HOPE gives you a little over $5000 a year, that is only $10K a year, that still leaves us trying to find loans and/or grants for the other $5K necessary for school. Moreover due to the economy, they have added a economy charge for all University Schools of Georgia and since I attend a Engineering school that charge is $100. Although it does not seem like much, that is almost the cost of a class book for me.

My subsidized loan is at 6.75%, so any loan that students are able to get at 1% is a good loan in my book. This should be offered to student who have at least a 2.7 GPA (Unlike high school, credits for classes differs in college so if you make and A, A, C, that can be a 2.8 - 3.3 GPA).

By MyOpinion

December 30, 2008 10:08 AM | Link to this

Catlady: The SAT/ACT should not be tied to the GPA for Hope scholarship for two reasons. 1. The SAT is not an accurate measure for what people know. I made 1160/1600 on the test and I was sleep on three fourths of the exam. For the SAT you need to know how to take the exam, versus the actual amount of information you might know. For the SAT if you know that you are deducted points for the wrong answer, you know not to answer the question if you are not at least 75% sure of the answer. Although I took the exam in 2003 and 2004 it is the same concept now. 2. The ACT does not deduct points but if you guess the right answer, that will increase your score although you do not know or understand over 50% of the exam.

Nappy D: Right now I’m a senior in a Co-Op, have HOPE and a few other grants and loans and I just have enough money to pay for college tuition and housing as an in-state student. My roommate has a co-op, she had HOPE until this year, (still has a 3.0), and she took out loans, but she still have to rely on her parents to help pay for college. The government only allow students to take between 2500-5000 a year in subsidize loans (depending upon you level), HOPE gives you a little over $5000 a year, that is only $10K a year, that still leaves us trying to find loans and/or grants for the other $5K necessary for school. Moreover due to the economy, they have added a economy charge for all University Schools of Georgia and since I attend a Engineering school that charge is $100. Although it does not seem like much, that is almost the cost of a class book for me.

My subsidized loan is at 6.75%, so any loan that students are able to get at 1% is a good loan in my book. This should be offered to student who have at least a 2.7 GPA (Unlike high school, credits for classes differs in college so if you make and A, A, C, that can be a 2.8 - 3.3 GPA).

By The BlogFather of Scroll

December 30, 2008 10:12 AM | Link to this

We can solve the Hope Scholarship Problem by forcing students to wear dunce caps, and turning the teacher’s underwear inside out, and allowing them to find sour kraut.

Watch the School Board Geniuses hack that idea directly from my blogs, man, the dirty rats.

I declare!

By MyOpinion

December 30, 2008 10:13 AM | Link to this

CatLady: Did your kids have co-ops? Did they have to work full-time during their time in college?

By catlady

December 30, 2008 10:33 AM | Link to this

Myopinion: While the SAT/ACT scores can be inaccurate, I can tell you that high school gpas are also not accurate. Put together, however, they give a much more accurate predictive picture of how a student performs than either one separately. You are certainly correct to have concerns about standardized test scores. But, as a 35 year experienced educator whose PhD and published research is on topics related to college attendance, I can tell you that there is wide variation in “what it takes” to get As at one high school vs. another.

Congratulations on all you are juggling.

My children did NOT work full time. I would not allow them to. They had to take out serious loans, and of course they got HOPE and institutional grants. There are trade-offs either way. Student loans are a pain. I will be repaying those for my 2nd masters and my PhD for the rest of my life. There is, however, a certain grim satisfaction about earning a doctoral degree as a single parent with 3 young children. I assure you that I DO understand about the gaps between aid and reality.

I understand about the current University System fee structure. My younger daughter is a grad student at a university here in Georgia, but fortunately has a graduate teaching assistantship that pays almost all her tuition, plus provides a stipend.

Best wishes for your continued success.

By Jason

December 30, 2008 10:34 AM | Link to this

“I am unpersuaded that college itself is necessary for an intelligent and/or productive life, especially if the student studies anything other than a hard science or a business-related curriculum.”

Nonsense, save for medicine. We’ve got more than enough unimaginative quant nerds in Indian, China and South Korea to whom we can (cheaply) outsource tedious number-crunching and programming jobs. We need to salvage what’s left of the liberal arts curriculum in colleges to foster the creativity and innovation that sets the U.S. apart from the rest of the world.

By Jake

December 30, 2008 10:35 AM | Link to this

GPA would be a better indicator of college success if it weren’t for grade inflation. Some students don’t have the raw intellect to score well on the SAT but can compensate by studying and working hard. Means testing would just make it another transfer program, more taxes paid in by wealthy used to educate the poor. MyOpinion - What’s wrong with $10k for $6k tuition? Didn’t you ever hear of work? If you weren’t in school you’d still have to earn your room and board wouldn’t you? BTW, students that work a little do better in school.

By catlady

December 30, 2008 10:54 AM | Link to this

Means testing would just make it another transfer program, more taxes paid in by wealthy used to educate the poor.

Jake, means testing for HOPE would mean the burden for the poor would be carried mostly by the poor, who disproportionately buy the lottery tickets that currently reward the middle and upper class children. HOPE is paid for by the lottery, not the taxpayers.

As far as the taxpayer subsidy for college attendance (mentioned above), it would be nearly a wash. The middle and upper class kids attend without the HOPE grant anyway, mostly, and the lower class kids would probably be the same ones who attend now but take out loans. HOPE seems to change DESTINATION, not ATTENDANCE.

I am not saying I am FOR means testing for HOPE. If you earn it, you earn it. I also have no problem with who buys lottery tickets. People do that voluntarily—I never have. Some kids have a much better shot at earning it because they have the financial, social, and cultural capital that comes with (generally) more educated parents. Here in Georgia, there are lots of institutions that allow you to attend on HOPE without taking out the loans by living at home, But what we see is a sorting going on: middle and upper class HOPE recepients tend to go to UGa level schools, lower class HOPE recepients tend to go to the 2 years schools and then transfer.

The thing I have noticed is: people value what they have a financial stake in. Right now, many students have little stake in that first year of college, because of HOPE.

By Ragnar Danneskjöld

December 30, 2008 10:57 AM | Link to this

Dear Scholar @ 8:37, “So tax breaks for the rich and businesses are ok to stimulate the economy by trickle down, but collecting revenue expressly for the education of college students is not?” Right, exactly so. Diminishing the theft by government against productive people and businesses encourages economic growth and increases employment generally. Indiscriminately pumping money down academic rat-holes keeps food on the tables of the unproductive. To make your case you create a false assertion: “The return on the investment of home growing the intellectual and technical talent is huge for this state.” There is no return at all, and even by your standard the state benefits hugely when it obtains the same “talent” without any expenditure at all (the “bigger fool” theory.) If there was some reason to believe students studied something valuable to commerce, you would have a tenuous basis for your claim; of course, there is no reason for such a belief.

“The HOPE scholarship should already be the motivation of teens to get a chance at a “better” life.” If the purported benefits of education are insufficient to motivate teens, what makes you think a HOPE scholarship will do so? The fact is, the HOPE scholarship is nothing but a form of corporate welfare, monies paid to academics for dubious services. As the HOPE scholarships are mostly funded by the Georgia lottery – and therefrom mostly the hopeless inner city denizens who have no concept of the odds against winning – and mostly fund the white, upper middle-class residents of Atlanta suburbs, is this not the most regressive tax in the United States? A poll tax is positively fair by comparison.

Dear Curious @ 8:38, I guess I just don’t buy into the “feel good” happy thoughts you derive from government subsidies of academic’s salaries. I also believe fewer than 1/10th of the HOPE scholars ever practice in their fields, so the education monies are a total waste for a huge majority. How many psychology or history majors ever practice in their fields?

Dear Leon @ 8:45, you’re welcome, you deserve it.

Dear Nappy D @ 8:50, “How about adding in incentives for kids to take internships and gain WORK EXPERIENCE BEFORE GRADUATING ?” You have realized the dirty secret obscured in the discussion – college does nothing to prepare most for a worklife. Law school did almost nothing to prepare me for the practice of law. Those same HOPE funds, invested in apprenticeships, would do more good for the world.

Dear Blogfather @ 10:06, don’t you think the incoming First Monkey has enough to worry about without you denigrating his potential?

By getalife

December 30, 2008 11:00 AM | Link to this

“I see the GOP’s devious plan to become the party of southern whites over the age of 50 continues apace.

Wholly unable to confirm this, but I’m told the talk is now that Mike Duncan may have to perform in black face at the upcoming RNC meeting to remain a credible candidate for the job.”

Jim, the magic white dragon.

Kooks.

By Jake

December 30, 2008 11:10 AM | Link to this

catlady - Of course you’re right, don’t know what I was thinking. I guess that would be even more of an argument for means testing since the money comes disproportionately from the poor. I do know my daughter just got accepted at UGA and is HOPE eligible, although she’s hoping to get in a better school.

By MyOpinion

December 30, 2008 11:15 AM | Link to this

Catlady: Congrats on PhD and 2nd Masters. That is something I am looking to achieve in my lifetime.

Jake: That $6K tuition is only that - Tuition for standard classes. That $6K does not include taking classes online from your school which can cost $175 per credit hour. That $6K does not include money that is spent to get projects working from ground up. My last two projects (a working model of an elevator and traffic light system ) cost $400 whereas one of my roommate projects cost $600 by itself. That $6K does not include the cost of books which can run anywhere between $250 to $500 a semester (depending upon if any used books are available). So as you can see that other $4K can be eaten up quickly, but you have to wait until your junior year to even get that $10K.

I have been working since the summer after my freshmen year. I started working as a counselor, then my campus bookstore to get discounts, to student assistant, to now working in a co-op in my field of study and have maintained a minimum of a 3.0 during the time I have been in college.

By Jason

December 30, 2008 11:39 AM | Link to this

“If there was some reason to believe students studied something valuable to commerce, you would have a tenuous basis for your claim; of course, there is no reason for such a belief.”

If you value commerce and hard work and efficiency so much, why do you spend all day commenting exhaustively on an AJC blog? Are you one of those “Do as I say, not as I do” types? Just curious.

By Ragnar Danneskjöld

December 30, 2008 11:45 AM | Link to this

Dr. Sowell’s essay today is a book review. The focus of the column tangentially examines the role of government and education.

By Ragnar Danneskjöld

December 30, 2008 11:49 AM | Link to this

Dear Jason @ various times, as you have no real thoughts to share, don’t you think you should take care of business? Let me guess, you have none because you are a psychology major?

By Copyleft

December 30, 2008 12:12 PM | Link to this

The notion that “value to the commerce sector” should be the sole measure of education’s value to society is laughable, and could only come from a money-obsessed tool of the far right… in other words, a typical weak-brained fascist.

In fact, there are plenty of priorities and principles far more important to America than mere commerce—just as there are more important priorities in government than cutting taxes for the weaalthy. (Thankfully.)

It’s good to see the intellectual stunted supply-siders kicked to the curb and a return to rational policymaking with this November’s triumph of sensible liberalism. It’s been too long.

By Copyleft

December 30, 2008 12:12 PM | Link to this

The notion that “value to the commerce sector” should be the sole measure of education’s value to society is laughable, and could only come from a money-obsessed tool of the far right… in other words, a typical weak-brained fascist.

In fact, there are plenty of priorities and principles far more important to America than mere commerce—just as there are more important priorities in government than cutting taxes for the wealthy. (Thankfully.)

It’s good to see the intellectually stunted supply-siders kicked to the curb and a return to rational policymaking with this November’s triumph of sensible liberalism. It’s been too long.

By Jason

December 30, 2008 12:26 PM | Link to this

“Dear Jason @ various times, as you have no real thoughts to share, don’t you think you should take care of business?”

If I have no real thoughts to share, what exactly are you responding to? And you never answered my question: If you’re the great propopent of diligence and capitalism you claim to be, why do you spend your days haranguing on an obscure blog instead of adding value to the economy? I’m a lazy democrat, so that’s my excuse.

“Let me guess, you have none because you are a psychology major?”

No, English…like Hank Paulson.

By Copyleft

December 30, 2008 12:31 PM | Link to this

Good work, Jason. If Ragnar’s trying to dismiss you and shoo you away, it means he can’t answer your points and feels threatened.

Good job pointing out the value of a liberal-arts education, which (amazingly!) cannot be measured in dollars and cents, and therefore doesn’t exist in the world of the weak-minded Republican dupe.

By Ragnar Danneskjöld

December 30, 2008 1:17 PM | Link to this

Dear Copyleft @ 12:12, we would agree that you and your fellow travelers have no regard for the state of the economy, nor for those elements that serve to enhance it.

Dear Jason @ 12:26, pity, some English scholars have a history of productivity.

By Ragnar Danneskjöld

December 30, 2008 1:23 PM | Link to this

Dear Copyleft @ 12:12, amazing is it not that those who magnify the importance of things that “cannot be measured in dollars and cents” have no reservation about confiscating the dollars and cents of others to spend on their folly? Thus is it always with thieves.

By Jason

December 30, 2008 1:34 PM | Link to this

“Dear Jason @ 12:26, pity, some English scholars have a history of productivity.”

Hi, pot, I’m kettle. Nice to meet you.

By Copyleft

December 30, 2008 1:57 PM | Link to this

I assume you mean “thieves” like the CEOs and directors who steal American workers’ livelihood, time, and energy in exchange for little they can get away with paying… all the while skimming the till and collecting bonuses in offshore accounts while they drive those same companies into bankruptcy?

You’re right, I have no respect for thieves like that. Nor for ignorant supply-siders like the current (and soon-to-be-former) regime and their ignorant dupes who are constitutionally incapable of understanding democracy OR economics.

But then, asking the fascist brain to think is always an exercise in foolish optimism….

By Jason

December 30, 2008 1:58 PM | Link to this

“…amazing is it not… Thus is it always…”

Way to go, Copyleft. You’ve got him speaking like Yoda now.

I can just imagine the internal monologue: “Well, if subtly bragging about my SAT score didn’t convince everyone of my superior intelligence, my unconventional syntax surely will!”

By Jake

December 30, 2008 2:09 PM | Link to this

Ragger - We need more education despite the economic applications, just to have an electorate smart enough not to vote for the likes of W! You did notice he (and McCain) fared rather poorly among the post-grad degree set didn’t you?

By Bo Chambliss LOBBYIST

December 30, 2008 2:11 PM | Link to this

Hurricane Katrina not only pulverized the Gulf Coast in 2005, it knocked the bully pulpit out from under President George W. Bush, according to two former advisers who spoke candidly about the political impact of the government’s poor handling of the natural disaster.

“Katrina to me was the tipping point,” said Matthew Dowd, Bush’s pollster and chief strategist for the 2004 presidential campaign. “The president broke his bond with the public. Once that bond was broken, he no longer had the capacity to talk to the American public. State of the Union addresses? It didn’t matter. Legislative initiatives? It didn’t matter. P.R.? It didn’t matter. Travel? It didn’t matter.”

Dan Bartlett, former White House communications director and later counselor to the president, said: “Politically, it was the final nail in the coffin.”

By Bo Chambliss LOBBYIST

December 30, 2008 2:16 PM | Link to this

Ben-Ami Kadish, an 85-year-old former Army engineer in New Jersey, pleaded guilty on Tuesday to spying for Israel by leaking secret documents about nuclear arms, missiles and fighter jets to the Israeli government during the 1980s.

Pleading guilty to one count of participating in a conspiracy to act as an unregistered agent for Israel, Mr. Kadish admitted that from about 1980 to 1985, he provided numerous classified documents, including information about missile systems, to Yosef Yagur, a science adviser at the Israeli consulate in New York, who photographed the documents in Mr. Kadish’s home. At the time, Mr. Kadish worked as a mechanical engineer at the Army’s Armament Research, Development and Engineering Center at the Picatinny Arsenal in Dover, N.J.

In his guilty plea, Mr. Kadish said that Mr. Yagur, via telephone calls from the Bronx, had asked him to obtain classified military documents, including documents related to missile defense systems. Mr. Kadish admitted that he obtained the documents from the arsenal’s library. The guilty plea states that Mr. Kadish “did not ask for, nor did he receive, anything of value for the classified documents,” which he provided “for the benefit of Israel.”

After he pleaded guilty, Mr. Kadish, who wore a hearing aid and was allowed to sit during the proceeding, thanked the court and added, “I want to wish you all a happy new year.” After that, his wife handed him his hat and warned him not to speak to any reporters. Mr. Kadish then shook the hands of the prosecutors.

By Sol Gold

December 30, 2008 2:21 PM | Link to this

Israeli bombing of Gaza is counter-productive, and a disproportionate reaction to what amounted to Hamas’ nuisance bombing of southern Israel, and that the invasion of Gaza would be an unmitigated disaster — for Israel.

Nor is the bombing of Gaza the real reason for Israel’s actions; as this editorial points out, the Bush administration has done nothing to resolve the conflict between Israel and Hamas through diplomacy and, in fact, has let the cease fire lapse. Bush and Cheney prefer military action to diplomacy, and the Israelis knew that, in three weeks, their enablers would be gone. Hence, they invaded now, and the objective is not to stop the nuisance bombing, but rather to destroy Hamas.

This strategy — if you can call it that— did not work in Lebanon with Hezbollah, and won’t work now. The Israelis cannot destroy the Palestinians, but rather only strengthen support for extremists by persisting in military actions that kill hundreds of people, including civilians, while destroying homes, villages, and the Palestinian infrastructure. Who do you think steps into the vacuum? Not Nelson Mandela, kids.

Hamas has behaved foolishly and irresponsibly by continuing the bombing, but the Israelis have been monumentally stupid, and morally reprehensible, by mass bombing and preparing for an invasion. They are not going to scare or kill the Palestinians; they will have to negotiate with them. Butter and jobs, and a restored Palestinian society — not guns — will provide Israel with long term security.

The responsibility for this crisis lies with Bush, Cheney and the Israelis, not Hamas. Hamas is an irritation. We are the problem.

By Mathew

December 30, 2008 2:23 PM | Link to this

Neither the Palestinians or the Israelis are being well served by their leaders. Fatah had grown so corrupt that the Palestinians voted in Hamas, which was never given a credible chance to govern legitimately by Israel and the US but hasn’t shown much inclination to do anything other than harass Israel and purge it’s rivals from Gaza. The Israeli leadership is using Gaza as a punching bag to flex their muscles ahead of an election. The Palestinians have no ability to meet force with force and any Israel action is so lopsided that it breeds more hatred. Israel is fighting a long uphill battle to maintain it’s viability as a Jewish state and prolonged confilict only worsens the odds in the long run.

The shabby leadership on all sides makes me wonder when true statesmen will emerge both in the Middle East and here in the United States. The Palestinians are going to have to accept Israel, and let go of the “Right to Return” and Isreal is going to have to cease the criminal seizures in the West Bank and allow a Palestinian state to emerge without reserving the right to inflict “regime change” when they disapprove of the results.

By Leon

December 30, 2008 2:33 PM | Link to this

Rag Ouch, that really stings, lest ye never forget….

“The principal point of cleverness is to know how to value things just as they deserve.”

By mister.earl

December 30, 2008 2:43 PM | Link to this

Add Up the Damage

By BOB HERBERT Published: December 29, 2008

Does anyone know where George W. Bush is?

You don’t hear much from him anymore. The last image most of us remember is of the president ducking a pair of size 10s that were hurled at him in Baghdad.

We’re still at war in Iraq and Afghanistan. Israel is thrashing the Palestinians in Gaza. And the U.S. economy is about as vibrant as the 0-16 Detroit Lions.

But hardly a peep have we heard from George, the 43rd.

When Mr. Bush officially takes his leave in three weeks (in reality, he checked out long ago), most Americans will be content to sigh good riddance. I disagree. I don’t think he should be allowed to slip quietly out of town. There should be a great hue and cry — a loud, collective angry howl, demonstrations with signs and bullhorns and fiery speeches — over the damage he’s done to this country.

This is the man who gave us the war in Iraq and Guantánamo and torture and rendition; who turned the Clinton economy and the budget surplus into fool’s gold; who dithered while New Orleans drowned; who trampled our civil liberties at home and ruined our reputation abroad; who let Dick Cheney run hog wild and thought Brownie was doing a heckuva job.

The Bush administration specialized in deceit. How else could you get the public (and a feckless Congress) to go along with an invasion of Iraq as an absolutely essential response to the Sept. 11 attacks, when Iraq had had nothing to do with the Sept. 11 attacks?

Exploiting the public’s understandable fears, Mr. Bush made it sound as if Iraq was about to nuke us: “We cannot wait,” he said, “for the final proof — the smoking gun that could come in the form of a mushroom cloud.”

He then set the blaze that has continued to rage for nearly six years, consuming more than 4,000 American lives and hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. (A car bomb over the weekend killed two dozen more Iraqis, many of them religious pilgrims.) The financial cost to the U.S. will eventually reach $3 trillion or more, according to the Nobel laureate economist Joseph Stiglitz.

A year into the war Mr. Bush was cracking jokes about it at the annual dinner of the Radio and Television Correspondents Association. He displayed a series of photos that showed him searching the Oval Office, peering behind curtains and looking under the furniture. A mock caption had Mr. Bush saying: “Those weapons of mass destruction have got to be somewhere.”

And then there’s the Bush economy, another disaster, a trapdoor through which middle-class Americans can plunge toward the bracing experiences normally reserved for the poor and the destitute.

Mr. Bush traveled the country in the early days of his presidency, promoting his tax cut plans as hugely beneficial to small-business people and families of modest means. This was more deceit. The tax cuts would go overwhelmingly to the very rich.

The president would give the wealthy and the powerful virtually everything they wanted. He would throw sand into the regulatory apparatus and help foster the most extreme income disparities since the years leading up to the Great Depression. Once again he was lighting a fire. This time the flames would engulf the economy and, as with Iraq, bring catastrophe.

If the U.S. were a product line, it would be seen now as deeply damaged goods, subject to recall.

There seemed to be no end to Mr. Bush’s talent for destruction. He tried to hand the piggy bank known as Social Security over to the marauders of the financial sector, but saner heads prevailed.

In New Orleans, the president failed to intervene swiftly and decisively to aid the tens of thousands of poor people who were very publicly suffering and, in many cases, dying. He then compounded this colossal failure of leadership by traveling to New Orleans and promising, in a dramatic, floodlit appearance, to spare no effort in rebuilding the flood-torn region and the wrecked lives of the victims.

He went further, vowing to confront the issue of poverty in America “with bold action.”

It was all nonsense, of course. He did nothing of the kind.

The catalog of his transgressions against the nation’s interests — sins of commission and omission — would keep Mr. Bush in a confessional for the rest of his life. Don’t hold your breath. He’s hardly the contrite sort.

He told ABC’s Charlie Gibson: “I don’t spend a lot of time really worrying about short-term history. I guess I don’t worry about long-term history, either, since I’m not going to be around to read it.”

The president chuckled, thinking — as he did when he made his jokes about the missing weapons of mass destruction — that there was something funny going on.

By PS

December 30, 2008 2:52 PM | Link to this

While we’re being cheap in this country, the rest of the industrialized world is giving free college to their citizens. Even China is graduating 60,000 engineers per year vs 6,000 in the US. We have to import our engineers along with medical doctors. We are well on our way to being a third world country brought on by selfishness and greed in the present moment with no regard for our future. Everyone that got a free college education including housing and food from the post World War II GI bill and helped build our country produced conservative children unwilling to pass it on to other generations.

By jm

December 30, 2008 3:13 PM | Link to this

PS@2:52 - folks around here are more interested in how many first round (football) draft picks their schools produce than how many engineers.

By Jake

December 30, 2008 3:49 PM | Link to this

Sol gold - How will the Israelis make peace with an organization whose avowed purpose is destruction of the Israeli state through gihad?

By Ragnar Danneskjöld

December 30, 2008 4:20 PM | Link to this

I listened to Clark Howard a few minutes this afternoon, and he had an observation on point for the topic today. The core problem is education funding is the total absence of market constraint, an argument I alluded to in my first post, but failed to state explicitly. We have erected a system where Peter is obliged to pay the bill for Paul, and in such a scheme everyone wishes to be Paul and nobody wants to be a Peter.

In that sense, the problem with education is indistinguishable from the failings of our health care system. For the latter our leftist friends insist the obvious cure is to impose the genius of government management, as the bureaucracy is the form of leadership most admired on the left. We on the intelligent side of the issue believe government is mostly useful as an entity that inflicts death and deprives liberties and steals wealth. The corollary of the nature of government is that it causes additional death in the area of healthcare, as witness the FDA in its normal state of affairs.

Before we nationalize healthcare, perhaps it would be a useful first step for the government to nationalize higher education. Since most educrats rarely work more than six hours per week, they would fit appropriately into the government employment system. Like bureaucrats, the hallmark of academia is its visceral distrust of free people exercising free decisions. Thus the obvious cure for the out-of-control costs of college is obviously nationalization. Let’s start the movement today.

By Ragnar Danneskjöld

December 30, 2008 4:27 PM | Link to this

Dear Copyleft @ 1:57,. “I assume you mean “thieves” like the CEOs and directors who steal American workers’ livelihood, time, and energy in exchange for little they can get away with paying… all the while skimming the till and collecting bonuses in offshore accounts while they drive those same companies into bankruptcy?” With your usual ineffable logic, you manufacture a strawman, a faux-character, and justify your position by equating your own with the worst imagined opposition. Surely you were an honors graduate in metaphysics?

“Steal American workers’ livelihod, time and energy? Where have we heard that definition of “value.” I’m quite sure that every system that adopted that definition as the core of its economics has now failed, excluding perhaps Cuba and Belarus. National Socialism remains vibrant on this blog, I guess.

By @@

December 30, 2008 5:23 PM | Link to this

Sounds good, but would that be the STATE of Georgia Student Finance AUTHORITY, Jim?

Since it’s voluntary, I suppose I SHOULD have NO qualms. But in that 1/3 of students on HOPE fail to make the grade during their first year (wasting a year’s tuition), it stands to reason that the well would soon run dry. It goes without saying that loans can’t be repaid by the failing and/or unemployed.

Then would come the public pleas, followed by the outcry.

Where is that to which we have become accustomed? We are ENTITLED to know.

I’m becoming quite the cynic, Jim. Can’t say as I like it, but neither can I help it.