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DEL.ICIO.USForum on manhood misses the mark
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
A group of middle-class black professionals, including doctors, lawyers, teachers, clergy and politicians, gathered more than 500 people at Macon State College on a Saturday in March to have a conversation about manhood.
They chose as topics the criminal justice system, spirituality, mentoring and how to educate black males.
The reporter for The (Macon) Telegraph, Ashley Tusan Joyner, offered an account of the session on “Law & Black Society.” In it, Atlanta lawyer Mawuli Mel Davis instructed young men on how to deal with the police. “The Fourth Amendment protects our rights against unreasonable searches and seizures,” she quotes him as instructing. “You can always say, ‘No, I do not consent to a search.’ “
A teacher speaking about educating young black males blamed the system. “The reason they’re not graduating is because we’re not teaching them to think,” Joyner reported him as saying. “We need to find ways to make education more relevant to them.”
I readily acknowledge I wasn’t there.
But it is shocking to read that given the opportunity to have a conversation about manhood with young males, role models who are successful and accomplished in life chose to talk to them as potential criminals and as victims of an education system that had not found a way to make itself “relevant.”
Not addressed, apparently, was manhood, as in fatherhood. Or manhood, as in taking responsibility. Or manhood, as in not treating sexual partners as throwaways without concern for consequence, whether that consequence is a sexually transmitted disease or the creation of human life. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reported in early March that at least one in four teenage girls nationally has a sexually transmitted disease. Among black teens ages 14-19, it’s nearly half.
Another study released last week offers findings that are, in a less tragic sense, further evidence of the need to reorient the conversation. As has been amply reported, 25 percent of white children, 46 percent of Hispanics and 69 percent of blacks are born to unmarried women.
The cost is enormous. When combined with divorce (a rate that’s declined slightly in recent years) almost a third of children live in single-parent homes. In 1970, 85.2 percent of children lived with both parents; in 2005, it was 68.3 percent.
Any number of studies have documented the harm to children and the social costs in higher rates of crime, drug abuse, poverty, mental and physical illnesses, educational failures, and other damaging consequences to children deprived of the life-guiding influence of both parents.
Now Benjamin Scafidi, an economist in the J. Whitney Bunting School of Business at Georgia College & State University in Milledgeville, presents valuable new research on the economic costs.
“We estimate that family fragmentation costs U.S. taxpayers at least $112 billion each and every year, or more than $1 trillion each decade,” concludes the study, which was done for the Institute for American Values, the Institute for Marriage and Public Policy, Georgia Family Council and Families Northwest. Scafidi, a former education policy adviser to Gov. Sonny Perdue, was principal researcher. If public policies encouraging marriage reduced family fragmentation by just 1 percent, the savings to taxpayers would amount to $1.1 billion yearly, the study finds.
It seems clear that the conversation about what constitutes “manhood” needs to change, especially when the government, the media, opinion leaders and community role models gather young men to help them define it. Manliness is not creating and abandoning babies and the women who bear them. Leah Ward Sears, chief justice of the Georgia Supreme Court, is one of the voices stepping up. She is on the board of directors of one of the sponsoring organizations, the Institute for American Values.
“Healthy marriage is not only the best place to raise children, it is the indispensable institution without which all other social reform efforts will fail,” she said. “Healthy and intact families are the cradle of thriving societies.” Preach that. Teach that. Counsel that.
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By jbmlaw
April 22, 2008 8:16 AM | Link to this
Good morning all. We are now two generations removed from schools oriented around Kantian teaching; that died in the early 1960s when God was kicked out of school. Not only are students no longer even exposed to the concept of “doing the right thing because it is right,” even their teachers were taught by utilitarians. Thus we live in a world driven by the pain/pleasure calculus, and nobody will buy a cow when they get the milk free.
The only potential resolution for a multiplicity of cultural problems – absentee fathers are merely one - is to get government out of the curriculum. Once schools are empowered again to provide judgmental ethical instruction our culture will progress. Parents will favor ethical training; only the irrational wish kids to grow up rudderless. We are a culture of druids. Happy earth day.
By Mid-South Philosopher
April 22, 2008 8:17 AM | Link to this
Good morning, Jim,
Manhood cannot be taught!
It must be developed, and that development must come through a series (either long or not so long) of experiences that allow young boys to observe role models who demonstrate the meaning of manhood. When there is a deficiency in the numbers of role models, the percentage of young boys who view proper deportment and, hence, develop the characteristics of manhood decreases.
Of equal concern, are those young boys who observe only the counterfeit manhood of the post-modern world…an emasculated manifestation of maleness in touch with its feminine side…or, on the opposite end of the spectrum, the testosterone rampant machismo male who, by g*d, is the boss and lets everyone know it.
The well-balanced, competent, and confident male is hard to find in the first decade of the 21st Century.
By CMS
April 22, 2008 8:17 AM | Link to this
If you admit you were not there how can you assume the panel did not discuss fatherhood?! You make some valid point regarding the stability marriage brings to society, but you overgeneralize it as it applies to the panel discussion that took place at MSC. You simply put your post up to get people to talking, and I guess it worked. Nevertheless I rarely post, but it seems most of your critics are right to stereotype you as an old hack clinging to the good old days.
By Jim's a Cherry Picker
April 22, 2008 8:20 AM | Link to this
Hi Jim,
Some fantastic Cherry Picking today! You’ve really outdone yourself.
While I’m not about to disagree with the spirit of your column, I find it far, far more concerning that the leaders of corporate America spend much, much, much more time and effort on the regulations surrounding skirting tax law, offshoring business, reducing benefits for their employees, etc…
What’s worse?
You always seem to focus on those who are most disadvantaged who cause the least amount of economic impact. Focus on the big guys…oh, I forgot. You’re shilling for them.
By AH
April 22, 2008 8:21 AM | Link to this
Did anyone point out that a male figure in the house is the best possible role model for a young man? Bill Cosby is right and I don’t know why more people don’t what to hear what he is saying?
By jct
April 22, 2008 8:24 AM | Link to this
Jim, how do you know this forum missed the mark? You weren’t there. You took two quotes to prove an unknown point. You could have written a stronger blog without mentioning the conference. I wasn’t there either so I am not sure if your issues were addressed.
Coming up with real solutions to this problem won’t come from a blog that is written to incite folks. While I agree that strong intact families normally raise strong intact children. You aren’t helping.
By PartyLine
April 22, 2008 8:31 AM | Link to this
Hmmm. Jim. It sounds like what you are trying to say is that we need to teach people — not just black males — how to think. Granted, I was not in your mind as you laid these words down on paper and I most certainly did not grow up in an environment that was nearly as rich and fulfilling and diversified as yours but maybe I can still tell you, based on my own personal feelings, how to make your life fit into my mold of the perfect life — the life that I think everyone should live. That almost sounds like something, as one example of many, I would expect to hear from GW as he addresses those still alive in Iraq. Arrogance is so unbecoming, don’t you think.
By Redneck Convert
April 22, 2008 8:35 AM | Link to this
Well, I reckon we can’t expect much better out of Those People. If they obey the law they won’t have to worry about getting arrested and searched. They don’t need to figure out ways to wiggle out of it.
And far as I’m concerned, the minute one of Those People get in the Fambly Way, the law needs to round up the father and make them get married. After they are married we don’t have to worry about spending tax money on the kid. We can just say the daddy is a shiftless no-account that won’t work and shouldn’t get no help. We would all be alot better off if the redneck point of view was used here in GA all the time.
But I know good and well we will see some pointy-head get on here today and try and argue we need to spend more tax money on Those People or let them live together without being married and still be on the dole. Its the same crowd that don’t want us to stick the needle to murderers or want us to pour money down a rathole for some kids doctoring. Just like fleas, you will always have libruls with you.
As far as this education is concerned, its just a waste of time after the 5th grade. All they need to learn is how to sign checks and do some ciphering and maybe learn something about the state so they won’t get lost when they go off to work. Those People need to be taught a trade and not waste their time on learning all this fancy thinking and reading. Just look at what happened to jbmlaw. Here is a good TN redneck that would have made a fine citizen but somebody sent him off to school so he could become a crooked lawyer and bamboozle us all with fancy words and weird ideas. And we suffer for it. Anyway, we would be better off if we spent the tax money on getting Those People to move to another state so we won’t have to deal with them. Maybe offer them 1,000 bucks if they will move to Alabama or S. Carolina or someplace like that.
And thats all I got to say. Have a good day everybody.
By Barry
April 22, 2008 8:44 AM | Link to this
How are we doing as a society? Are we raising our children better? Are marriages more stable or less so? Is family violence rising or falling? Eventually, we will have to face the truth that we are on the wrong track. The choices we have made as a society have moved us away from peace, success and kindness. Make no mistake the errors of our past 40 years have fallen hardest on the poor and disadvantaged. Change is required. We must reassert personal responsibility, doing good for it’s own sake, courage, honor and pride. Women are not throwaways for our pleasure. Families are the center of future generations. Quibbling is what they do in Clayton County when the schools are losing their accreditation. Acting in the face of challenge is what adults do.
By Peter
April 22, 2008 8:45 AM | Link to this
Gosh Jim, how much does the MADE UP WAR cost each month?
Perhaps if money was actually spent on Education, and not WAR, we would be better off?
By Glenn
April 22, 2008 8:50 AM | Link to this
“Not addressed, apparently, was manhood…”
No, it wasn’t addressed. They weren’t man enough to talk about manhood—-nor even, evidently, to know what it is—-so instead they talked about “criminal justice system, spirituality, mentoring and how to educate black males.” They talked about these things and they talked about men experiencing these things and they talked and they talked and talked and talked and talked. Yunno, as men are wont to do.
Jim, I’m intrigued by your final paragraph: “Preach that. Teach that. Counsel that.” Intrigued, because I’m not sure there’s a difference anymore. And neither am I sure that that’s a good thing.
Oh, and one final note: what we call “manhood” is both a social construct and a part of the crucial cultural institution called Gender. As that territory is yet partially unoccupied by those who presume to preach-teach-counsel us, the Chattymen mean to colonize it completely and ASAP. Lotta money in that. Better still, lotsa juicy power. That’s what the gabfest was for. One dead giveaway was that some sick-in-the-head got away with saying that “the reason they’re not graduating is because we’re not teaching them to think.”
When they want to crawl inside your cerebrum and teach you how to think—-or, worse, when they think that anyone can be taught to think how-to-think—-then drink a double espresso, because those are the Pod People, just waiting for you to fall asleep…
By jbmlaw
April 22, 2008 8:57 AM | Link to this
Dear Redneck @ 8:35, welcome back. You will be horrified that, in a strange way, your essay parallels Dr. Sowell’s sharp argument in today’s column, on the waste of “higher education.”
By Ray
April 22, 2008 8:58 AM | Link to this
Cosby’s opinion is so uncomfortable to the black community that most pass it off as bogus and racist. It is anything but. This country was founded on the principles of responsibility, hard work, family values and getting a good education to provide for your family. These principles are sadly lacking in what Jim describes. For someone who worked for 45 years before retiring at 70yrs of age, provided for his family and raised and educated 4 children, it is hard to swallow some of the excuses that the black community has to excuse them from responsibility for their offspring. I, for one, are tired of paying their bills and I am sure that I am not alone in that regard. There seems to be a sperminator at every corner and they come complete with an STD and a TV network to provide them with a lifestyle that is “cool”. It is anything but.
By PartyLine
April 22, 2008 9:11 AM | Link to this
I think there may be many people out there that were not taught to think. I think that schools do need to focus more on ascertaining whether a student has learned to think. I think that’s where many a child is left behind. Thinking and memorizing are two components of a learning process. Of course, I’m thinking that the word, thinking, is associated with the word, comprehension. I’m also thinking that thinking “how to think” is frequently thought of as a component of racism, bias, hatred, arrogance, etc. In the end though, I’ll think what I want to think, as will you, if you stop to think about it.
By Barker
April 22, 2008 9:15 AM | Link to this
Do you really think that the two points that you mentioned where the only issues that were discussed. You mention that there were more than two people on the panel, but you only qoute two people. And then you put down a forum that you admit that you didn’t attend. This is a very poor example of journalism.
By John Q. Public
April 22, 2008 9:15 AM | Link to this
Good Morning Men (and you too Jim), I’ll readily admit that I was not at the forum, however, you readily admit that you weren’t there either, Jim. But you have the audacity to comment on it. It is amazing to me that when Black men gather to discuss the ills of our community and also the positives of our community, columnist like you, broadcast journalist like Lou Dobbs, Sean Hannity, Rush, all have “better” opinions of how Black men and the Black community should think and act. As if we are not capable of cogent thought. If we as Black men DO NOT reign in our young men, then our community will no longer exist. Therefore, Jim, we must speak to the problems first. We also must look at the preservation of family, which translates into having more job opportunities available for men to go to work and provide. We need to change the political system (which is happening), not continue to embrace the policies and practices of old that has brought us to this critical point. Jim, a reality is that Blacks are still targeted by the Police, we must teach our young men how to deal with that, and if you were on the ground there you could have really done a piece on how those who have succeeded, did so in light of those cirmcstances. I’m certain there was a story there. We must teach our young men that they have rights, when most have no belief that rights exists within our community. Funny, these arguments sounds like the same arguments that Black men have voiced for years. Jim, I know you’ve been around for as long as I have. You cannot believe or posture yourself to appear that you know more about the workings of our community than you do. I think we all appreciate your “At My Desk” criticisms, however, you have no clue as to the experience that our young people and Black men endure daily. I liken your comments as to those previously named as Instant Theologians of the Black Church after they heard 30 seconds of a sermon from a Pastor they labled as unpatriotic. Please be advised that the Pastor was stating truths that White America did not want to hear. As most of uor Pastors do. He said it because we live it. You’re no different here. So, Jim, why not try to understand the culture before making baseless observations. Also, try attending the next time.
By Sven the Blog Catalyst
April 22, 2008 9:20 AM | Link to this
Give a defined set of people an excuse to fail, and they will fail. We have provided the excuse through the pervasive gospel of militant victimhood, reinforced by endless, pointless social programs. As result, they have failed.
By George Washington
April 22, 2008 9:26 AM | Link to this
Ha ha ha - This crap passes for journalism at tha Atlanta Urinal Constitution? Race bashing is not jounalism, Woodenhead….Everyone, black, white, yellow and pink needs to exercise all their constitutional rights in dealing with the State, especially with their lowest level flunkies, the police. Always demand to see the warrant, always say “I demand my right to legal counceling prior to answering ANY questions,” and “I choose to remain silent.” Do not concent to a search of your property, even when threatened with arrest if you do not comply. Always carry a voice activated tape recorder, but do not tell the police, just give the tape to your lawyer after the fact. If possible, video tape the behavior of the police discreetly, do not tell the police about the video tape, but do give it to your lawyer. The voice activated tape recorder and the video recorder are the best tools the public has against police misconduct, framing of the innocent, police theft, lying, and murder. As for woodenhead, he needs to git a mule and return to his highest level of incompetence, field hand, because he sure can’t write…..imho, of course.
By WFC
April 22, 2008 9:30 AM | Link to this
Young Black males need fathers present in the home and too few have them. There are some things that even the best mama can’t teach boys.
By Fair and Balanced
April 22, 2008 9:31 AM | Link to this
Why John Q. Public! Why didn’t you just come outright and ask Jim and others to be fair and balanced. At least then I think they may have been able to understand what you are trying to say. For future reference, please apply the KISS principle when addressing those that are expected to frequent such a right-thinking blog as this one. It’s what us free-thinking, educated types understand best.
By Glenn
April 22, 2008 9:36 AM | Link to this
Well, ya got trouble, my friend / Right here / I say trouble right here in River City
Why, sure, I’m a billiard player, certainly mighty proud / I say I’m always mighty proud to say it / I consider the hours I spend with a cue in my hand are golden / Help you cultivate horse sense and a cool head and a keen eye / ‘Jever take and try to find an iron clad leave / To yourself from a three-rail billiard shot?
But just as I say it takes judgement, brains and maturity / To score in a balk-line game / I say that any boob can take and shove a ball in a pocket / And I call that sloth / The first big step on the road to the depths of degreda-
I say, first—-medicinal wine from a teaspoon / Then beer from a bottle / And the next thing you know your son is playin’ / For money in a pinchback suit / And listenin’ to some big out-o’-town jasper Hearin’ him tell about horserace gamblin’ / Not a wholesome trottin’ race, no / But a race where they set down right on the horse / Like to see some stuck up jockey boy settin’ on Dan Patch? / Make your blood boil, well I should say
Now, friends, let me show you what I mean / You got one, two, three, four / Five, six pockets in a table / Pockets that mark the difference between / A gentleman and a bum with a capital ‘B’ and that rhymes with ‘P’ and that stands for ‘pool’!
And all week long, your River City youth’ll be / Fritterin’ away, / I say, your young men’ll be fritterin’ / Fritterin’ away their noontime, suppertime, choretime, too / Hit the ball in the pocket / Never mind gettin’ dandelions pulled or the screen door patched / Or the beefsteak pounded / Never mind pumpin’ any water ‘til your parents are caught / With a cistern empty on a Saturday night and that’s trouble
Yes, ya got lots and lots o’ trouble / I’m thinkin’ of the kids in the knickerbockers, shirttails, young ones / Peekin’ in the pool hall window after school / Ya got trouble, folks, right here in River City / With a capital ‘T’ and that rhymes with ‘P’ / And that stands for ‘pool’!
Now I know all you folks are the right kind of parents / I’m gonna be perfectly frank / Would you like to know what kind of conversation goes on / While they’re loafin’ around that hall / They’ll be tryin’ out Bevo, tryin’ out Cubebs / Tryin’ out Tailor Mades like cigarette fiends / And braggin’ all about how they’re gonna / Cover up a tell-tale breath with Sen-Sen / One fine night they leave the pool hall / Headin’ for the dance at the Arm’ry / Libertine men and scarlet women and ragtime Shameless music that’ll drag your son, your daughter / Into the arms of a jungle animal instinct massteria! / Friends, the idle brain is the devil’s playground, trouble!
We surely got trouble / We surely got trouble / Right here in River City / Right here / Gotta figure out a way to keep the young ones Moral after school / Our children’s children gonna have / Trouble, trouble, trouble, trouble…
(Mothers of River City / Heed that warning before it’s too late / Watch for the tell-tale signs of corruption / The minute your son leaves the house / Does he rebuckle his knickerbockers below the knee? / Is there a nicotine stain on his index finger? / A dime novel hidden in the corncrib? / Is he starting to memorize jokes / From Cap’n Billy’s Whizbang? / Are certain words creeping into his conversation? / Words like… swell? / And… ‘so’s your old man’?
Well if so, my friends, ya got trouble / Oh, we got trouble Right here in River City / Right here in River City / With a capital ‘T’ and that rhymes with ‘P’ and that stands for ‘pool’ / That stands for pool!
[Meredith Willson]
By Tom
April 22, 2008 9:43 AM | Link to this
It’s always hilarious when jbmlaw name-checks Kant in an effort to sound erudite. You might get the idea that the leading recent Kantians (such as John Rawls, Christine Korsgaard, Dieter Henrich and Allen Wood) are “conservatives” in the jbmlaw mold. But of course they’re not. They’re all liberals, of just the kind that our proto-fascist friend jbmlaw purports to find so horrifying. And why? Because they understand Kant, as opposed to jbmlaw, who understands…well, absolutely nothing at all.
By Dusty
April 22, 2008 9:43 AM | Link to this
Well, almost everything written here this morning has some merit, except Peter who wanders mindlessly into the war zone at every opportunity.
BUT..I would say more than a few things are missing. While it seems these black men are trying to teach young males THAT there is more to life than being a breeding station and a police station visitor, they ignored the youthful (and grownup)girls.
Most girls do not have to be taught how to be ‘female’. It comes with the equipment. BUT they surely do miss out on restraint and saying NO. Since they carry the burden of licentiousness with them, you’d think they’d learn. But..obviously they do not.
Maybe young men can be taught to cherish the idea of character instead of consenting cute. (Fat chance!!) And girls might be taught to hold off and pick a good one for a life time.
TV is also the plague of youth. Almost every show has women with at least a shirt open almost to waist or very little of any clothing. Or worse, new aquaintances shake hands, have a drink and jump into bed. And nobody asks “Do you have STDs, a wife at home, six ‘fatherless’ children or a charge on record of battery against women?”
I admire this group of men for trying to do something. Anything!! Maybe on their next get together they will get rid of smoke & mirrors and speak of real things.
By Dennis
April 22, 2008 9:45 AM | Link to this
By jbmlaw April 22, 2008 8:16 AM “Good morning all. We are now two generations removed from schools oriented around Kantian teaching; that died in the early 1960s when God was kicked out of school.”
Who’s “god” should be taught in American schools?
What should be taught about him/her/it?
What textbook(s), if any, should be used?
Should the teacher hold a valid degree from a seminary just as teachers have valid degrees in math, science, reading…?
Just maybe, Counselor, the schools are better off by not teaching “god” but rather by just revealing the gods of other cultures to the students (which takes place, I believe, about the time of sixth grade social studies).
Let’s leave the teaching of one specific “god” to the various religions and churches.
We ask too much of the schools already.
You don’t have to be a blind conservative not to see it, just an ignorant one to deny it.
By Glenn
April 22, 2008 9:48 AM | Link to this
Maybe the reason the professional blacks did not discuss the family responsibly of the young black man is because they know they would not listen. This responsibility is taught in our schools, and they don’t listen so why waist their breath?
By George Washington
April 22, 2008 9:50 AM | Link to this
Ah, fat girl Dusty barfs her usual illconcieved nonsense…Hey dirt ball, sex is natural for all mammals…Just cause you couldn’t give it away when you were young doesn’t mean other are not desirable…Dust is sufficeint justification for returning fat girls to the status of chattel, to serve the needs of their more attractive gender mates by cooking, cleaning, and steping and fetching…
By Ray
April 22, 2008 9:50 AM | Link to this
The statistics don’t lie. You don’t have to be black to recognize that that segment of our society is in deep trouble. They are killing off their best and brightest. When violent homicide is the leading cause of death in black males between the ages of 18 and 30, Houston, we got a problem! When half of your teenagers have STDs and society has to pay for their irresponsibility and single parent households, you don’t have to be black to recognize that a problem exists. Quit making excuses for what is real in this world and start doing something about it. In this day and time, it has to start with the black community who will not listen to anyone else but a black person, Cosby being the exception. When anyone criticizes the black community for their irresponsible behavior, including black journalists like Shelby Steele, Juan Williams, Thomas Sowell, John McWorter, Larry Elder and even Booker T. Washington, they are labeled Uncle Toms who are not in touch with reality. Try reading any of these authors and get informed about the real problems that must be corrected so that we can survive as a society. Another walk over Selma bridge is not enough. Do something!!!
By PartyLine
April 22, 2008 9:52 AM | Link to this
Now let’s give Glenn a big round of applause. Clap, Clap, Clap. Next up, we have Meredith Baxter doing her rendition of a woman scorned. Don’t forget to join us next week for our annual spelling bee. It’s all the buzz.
By Wally Sutton
April 22, 2008 9:56 AM | Link to this
Wooten’s racial parries are too easily foiled. (sorry). His only data is that 25% of white babies versus 75% of Black babies are born to unmarried women.
The rest of it was a nice sermon lamening the total lack of religion in discussions of law and education.
Lets just do the math on the comparative costs of the two population pools there. .25 times 220 million whites equals 55 million. .69 times 37 million Blacks equals 25 million.
Wooten might have convinced me if he had included the growing amount of research and data being reported concerning the booty call.
I’m your boogie man, I love to boogie. You’re my boogie girl, so shake that bootie.
By George Washington
April 22, 2008 9:56 AM | Link to this
Well Gee whiz Ray, it sure sounds like we have a natural warrior class in Black males….Why not put them in uniform to serve out their prison sentence somewhere nice and safe, like Iraq or Afghanistan? Oh, we are, see the latest recruiting news…Expect the Black Liberation Revolution to begin in 2015 folks, as the troops return from the front…As I told my draft board in 1969, only a fool would teach me to use automatic weapons, as you could never be sure which way I would point them….
By Sandy_G
April 22, 2008 9:57 AM | Link to this
Want to further reduce the divorce rate, ensure children the significant presence of a father in their life and the ability for boys to learn the importance of being fathers? Establish mandatory shared parenting in all divorces. In cases of domestic violence or abuse, or if Dad doesn’t want to be an equal partner, couples can opt out of shared parenting, but for most divorces, it should be the presumption that the children will spend equal time with both parents.
This reduces the divorce rate because women are no longer guaranteed, the house, the children and a child support check when they decide to file for divorce, so some women may rethink filing (women file for divorce much more often than men do).
In the case of unmarried females and males creating children, men should have equal rights to parent their children as females. Again, the courts should begin from the position that the child should have as close to equal time with both parents as possible. This might give some young females a reason to stop and think before having sex because any child created would be spending significant time with the man she chooses to have unprotected sex with.
Many good fathers whose wives decide to walk away from the marriage, or the relationship, struggle every day to spend time with their children only to be rebuffed by the courts and the mother who often think that two weekends a month and two weeks in the summer is sufficient time for Dad to be with his children because let’s face it, neither the courts, most women, nor our society in general look upon fathers as equal in importance to mothers when it comes to parenting children.
I’m a female and I have watched my husband as his ex-wife has done everything in her power to remove him from his children’s lives, even going so far as to move them out of the state. He’s a wonderful father, an awesome husband and he hurts every day because he misses his children and they miss him.
He’s not in the minority either. Many men across the country have grouped together to fight for the right to parent their children in a significant way. They are consistently blocked and lobbied against by feminist groups and liberal politicians who want to maintain the status quo of single mothers having the majority of the control and contact with their children.
Marginalizing fathers has been an unintended consequence of the government subsidizing the raising of children in single parent households. Problem is, no amount of money or housing subsidies, Head Start programs, WIC, etc. can replace a father in a child’s daily life.
By ron
April 22, 2008 10:01 AM | Link to this
Good morning Jim,I agree with you that families are the answer to a lot of society's problems.Young men and women are less prone to go astray when surrounded by a family.One man,one woman surrounded by x number of children.That's how it was when we grew up.It was a good country then.The doors to the house never even had locks.Crime was something that happened somewhere else.Only a small percentage of the people in the town where I grew up went to church.The community had an active role in raising all the children.Thats just how it was.By PartyLine
April 22, 2008 10:07 AM | Link to this
Let’s just transplant the black males and their harems to the green zone and let them start pumping out those world-class warriors. Keep cummin’, honey. GW says we needs another surge.
By George Washington
April 22, 2008 10:07 AM | Link to this
Sandy_G: a better solution is a vascectomey at age 13— brats are the biggest drain on a man’s lifetime earnings, exceeding even uncle stupids undeserved take….if women want to fulfill the biological inperative, let them learn to bud asexually, like other plants. Sex is and should be purely for recreation…not creating a financial headache for men. Remember men, never, ever let yourself care one little bit about the female…once you detect that little twinge of caring, cut off all contact…Never ever listen to her problems, and Never ever ever try to solve them for her…that leds to caring, which is the downfall of men
By Dennis
April 22, 2008 10:08 AM | Link to this
Mr. Wooten readily admits he was not there and cannot confirm or deny that “Not addressed, apparently, was manhood, as in fatherhood. Or manhood, as in taking responsibility. Or manhood, as in not treating sexual partners as throwaways without concern for consequence, whether that consequence is a sexually transmitted disease or the creation of human life.”
But let’s not be too quick to believe that these values are not taught in the African-American culture.
Those professionals who attended the conference learned them somewhere.
You don’t have to be a blind conservative not to see it, just an ignorant one to deny it.
By JK
April 22, 2008 10:10 AM | Link to this
Mr. Wooten, the statistics you quote may be valid, but that you fail to quote statistics on white divorce rates and the subsequent abandonment of parental and financial responsibilities by DIVORCED parents indicates that you are indeed “cherry picking” facts to make a racist accusation about a conference you did not even attend. The welfare rolls are jammed with divorced white parents, and their children make up a good portion of the 4 of 10 who never finish high school in Georgia.
A lame, sad column today, even for Wooten.
By Wally Sutton
April 22, 2008 10:14 AM | Link to this
If you say that one…more….TIME!
By The Way We Were
April 22, 2008 10:15 AM | Link to this
We need to build more Mayberry RFDs. That way all the developers, realtors, home builders, building supply owners, etc., that moonlight as elected officials will get something out of it and everyone will be happy. Isn’t that right Mr. Evans, Mr. Pearson, etc.
By Aquagirl
April 22, 2008 10:18 AM | Link to this
Sandy, I thought conservatives were all about holding individuals responsible for their behavior. So why the off-topic rant on how liberals are responsible for your family mess? If you could produce a substantial group of black men who want to parent you’d make some sense. However, if your main topic is whining about your husbands ex, take your pet peeve to the momania blog. They’ll give you a nice soft shoulder to cry on.
By Glenn
April 22, 2008 10:20 AM | Link to this
‘Tweren’t I @ 9:48. But oh, well.
Tom,
How you get from the neo-Kantians to the kind of thing that dominates American politics under the name “liberalism”, is beyond me. But what’s even more baffling is your reading of jbmlaw’s libertarianism as somehow “proto-fascist”. Why don’t you just say that you don’t like jbm’s views, and be done with it?
By George Washington
April 22, 2008 10:25 AM | Link to this
Here Wally, catch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCK7N4kn7uc
By Annette
April 22, 2008 10:25 AM | Link to this
Stop referring to the “black community” as if we are of one single mind and thought. A single gathering of African American men in Macon,GA does not represent the entire “black community”. My father who was married to my mother, worked hard and paid taxes, taught all of us the value of being honest working hard, respecting people men and women, not being lose with our bodies or morals. We were not the exception. so stop perpectuating this non-sense.
By Peter
April 22, 2008 10:27 AM | Link to this
Boy One has to love Dusty the lemming’s comments……
“By Dusty
April 22, 2008 9:43 AM | Link to this
Well, almost everything written here this morning has some merit, except Peter who wanders mindlessly into the war zone at every opportunity.”
Well Dusty, please let us know how BUSH and his cronies have raised the eduction spending, that has been right in line with the WAR spending.
Please Dusty try and use your education to speak on this blog…….
I guess you have forgotten the FAILED leadership of this President, has the trickle down effect, and he has done ZERO to help the typical American, and that INCLUDES….. Black Americans as well.
The FAILED leadership starts at the TOP Dusty, and spending Billions on a MADE UP WAR, is NOT leadership, and we have now seen what that out of control spending has done to the American public.
Jim has nothing to say like YOU today…… Just put down a race that has been struggling for decades.
Racist stuff today Dusty….. I guess you are a racist as well !
When is Jim going to get to the real problems ? Like over spending on the Budget, keeping America at WAR, and pretending it is for “Security Reasons” ?
By Annette
April 22, 2008 10:30 AM | Link to this
Stop referring to the “black community” as if we are of one single mind and thought. A single gathering of African American men in Macon,GA does not represent the entire “black community”. My father who was married to my mother, worked hard and paid taxes, taught all of us the value of being honest working hard, respecting people men and women, not being lose with our bodies or morals. We were not the exception. so stop perpectuating this non-sense.
By Dusty
April 22, 2008 10:35 AM | Link to this
George Washington,
you are so cute!! And so funny!! So errr….semi-intelligently rabid! I hope you are writing a book during your 30 year incarceration. I’ll light a candle for you.
By Tom
April 22, 2008 10:38 AM | Link to this
Oh, I don’t know Glenn, could it be the oh-so-worshipful nationalism, the veneration of the “strength” and “resolve” of our Leader against the enemies that surround us on all sides, the explicit endorsement of the notion that the military should control our national politics? The assertions that “those people” (whoever they may be) are perverting our way of life and ruining our sacred land? The “Gott mit Uns” belt buckle?
By Dusty
April 22, 2008 10:47 AM | Link to this
Dear Peter Rabid,
Bush is fighting for our freedom so we can continue education in our own schools instead of madrassas. That is something you are unable to comprehend.
Wooten was discussing a ameeting of Black males. They were black males talking about “Black Society” and said so. Do you think using the word “black” is discriminatory? How about “white”?
By Glenn
April 22, 2008 10:53 AM | Link to this
Annette,
Whew, I’m glad you said that. I suppose what we should be—-but are not—-referring to are really just “communities” of [shared] interest. These men claim to be interested in manhood. They’re not, but they claim to be so that they can then make some pronouncements that stick. Doing so in the name of some mythical creature called “The Black Community” just gives them more juice, that’s all.
It’s such a racket, and quite undemocratic in that if they had something to say they’d just offer it to the marketplace of ideas and see whether it sticks—-and dispense with all the rigamarole about how they have special knowledge of the topic of their assertion.
I edited a report the status of young African-American males, and I can assure you that had anyone, of any race, creed or nationality, or either gender, submitted a promising new idea for improving the conditions of that group, the Commission would have jumped for joy. The doing-it-for-ourselves programs of the great black American leaders were crucial to the advancement of the race and of this country—-possibly in equal measure—-but that’s an important idea whose time has passed. Just as it was meant to have done.
By Ray
April 22, 2008 10:57 AM | Link to this
Annette,
Someone is making you look bad, or have you not noticed. I appreciate hard work, family unity and principles that your family shared with you in your youth. I tried to do the same with my children. Why don’t you speak out against irresponsibility? Someone black has to do it…. no one will listen to a white person. You must recognize that a problem exists. Hanging tight with the brothers and sisters doesn’t seem to be working. And you know what….. in the end, responsible people like yourself will be the ultimate losers.
By willie b
April 22, 2008 10:58 AM | Link to this
Dusty 10.47…It seems you are unable to comprehend….Bushie is not fighting for anybody’s freedom!
Never has, never will…it’s always someone else that does the fighting!
By Jackie
April 22, 2008 11:07 AM | Link to this
When there is a need for deflection, this blog always seem to come up with a racial slant.
As everyone has noted and Jim has stated, he was not at the conference, therefore, his only reference is heresay and speculation.
Secondly, Jim has not been black a day in his life. He knows nothing about what goes on in a black family and the struggles of black families.
Anecdotal information to “prove” a theory is not valid. One could try to use statistics to prove a point, but we are constantly reminded that the outcome of a formula can be manipulated by placing that number in different places in a formula.
Trying to prove a negative is impossible. Without a complete understanding of the sociological environment society has built for each player in that society, how does one ever know why anyone does anything.
To provide “evidence” to the crime and punishment in this country, the Justice Department has statistics showing that 6% of the citizens in this country are criminals, regardless of race.
If one were to break that down by race, blacks are roughly 15% of the population of more than 303 million citizens. That number gives us roughly 45 million blacks with 6% of those being criminals, which gives us roughly 2.3 million criminals, including men women and children.
Now, we know that our prisons have more than 2 million people with blacks being roughly 64%. Statistically, blacks fall outside the norm.
Do the math for whites and see how this does not add up.
As one reads Jim’s piece and thinks about what those folks were attempting to understand, using government numbers, what conclusion would you come to?
By Peter
April 22, 2008 11:07 AM | Link to this
Please Dusty tell us what BUSH is actually doing ?
“By Dusty
April 22, 2008 10:47 AM | Link to this
Dear Peter Rabid,
Bush is fighting for our freedom so we can continue education in our own schools instead of madrassas. That is something you are unable to comprehend.”
Gee Dusty, last I heard 911 was caused by Bin Laden….. and is he NOT still Free to run about and cause destruction ?
Why didn’t BUSH go after Bin Laden ?
Tell me how he is making it all safe for us?
Now please tell me what Bush is doing in is his Education budget ?
Dusty as usual you have zero to say, and none of it makes any sense…..
Blah Blah Blah…… welcome to Dusty’s post !
By George Washington
April 22, 2008 11:13 AM | Link to this
Thanks for lighting the candle for me Dirt Ball, now stick it up your ASSets, either end first, your choice.
By Dusty
April 22, 2008 11:19 AM | Link to this
willie b@10:58 (I thought you were dead!)
shhh… there’s a couple of words you missed. Commander-in-chief, President,National Guard pilot, leader elected by the people, supporter of the FREE world, and suppressor of terrorism.
That is George W. Bush. If you don’t think he is fighting for us, you are blind or sadly lacking.
By FLY
April 22, 2008 11:22 AM | Link to this
As I sit here in Afghanistan as a civilian contractor I can only shake my head and laugh. The bottom line is our youth lack Leadership—does it matter if they are white or black? Leadership is the process of influencing and individual to accomplish a mission through purpose, motivation, and direction. Most young people that I’ve come into contact do not have a purpose in life, and therefore they do what feel good as oppose to what is good or what can lead to good. In as much young people, especially my people, young blacks lack motivation because there is an absence of a male role model in the home or neighborhood who is willing to take the time to encourage, mentor, and incite passion and drive to be somebody important…in the midst of racism, poverty, and other obstacles life may bring. Lastly, young people lack direction for two reasons. The first reason is MTV and BET are training our children and not real life adults. As a result, they conceptualize a false image of life which leads them down a dangerous road of money, drugs, and women. The second reason young people lack direction is because they fail to take self responsibility before they are forced to take self responsibility. When they learn to take self responsibility for their decisions they are more inclined to think about the positive and negative aspects of their choices.
In all, manhood is rite of passage not a right. You can be 40 years old and never reach manhood—just as you can be 16 years old and reach manhood when you stand up and take on responsibilities. Let us focus not on who said what and what was said, but on how we can take what was said and make a difference by leading boys into manhood.
FLY
By Charles
April 22, 2008 11:22 AM | Link to this
Jim Wooten, let’s have some straight talk here my friend. The deity that many of us serve did not create African Americans to live in a society as slaves, specifically volunteer slaves. Now don’t get this statement twisted. This is in no way an indictment of white people as others often do, but one of black people; especially the ignorant, bought and paid for, so-called educated integrationist Negroes. And that’s not being negative per se, it’s being truthful.
Why don’t black Americans have respectable institutions of their own? They say that slavery ended in 1865. Badly needed institutions are non-existent because the so-called educated integrationist Negroes conspired and are conspiring as we speak with the powers that be to deprive the masses of black people of human dignity, honor, and freedom in exchange for filthy lucre, money, status, etc. for a select few. Any fool knows that no group of people can survive for long, or remain intact, without institutions which give them support and direction. If African Americans had institutions capable of meeting their basic needs, there would be no legitimate reason for a soul to “taxi to the dark side.”
A forum on white manhood concerning some of their personal failures would be more in touch or aligned with reality, or a better case to make. Here are a people that have institutions capable of servicing their basic needs, food, clothing, shelter, education, employment, etc. and as a consequence are free; free provided that they don’t lose control of their institutions. Why do white people have personal struggles in America would be a legitimate question…
Leah Ward Sears, Bill Cosby, Oprah Winfrey, Jeremiah Wright, and countless forums are all parts of what’s wrong with Black America. I’ve heard prominent black people, fifty, sixty, and seventy years of age say to young black people, “Pull your pants up if you want someone to give you a job. These white people are serious. You are not going to get a job dressing like that.” This is an example of how adults, black men and women, advise their children and community. They sense no contradiction in having only futile advice for their children, and being responsible adults with jobs to provide for them. Black America doesn’t need people who simply tell us what our problems are and show us how to overcome them. We need something more substantial. Like any responsible people, African Americans desperately need people in our community committed to building institutional power capable of meeting our basic needs, while at the same time, providing us with the ability to institutionally address our human failures with something other than talk.
By Charles
April 22, 2008 11:24 AM | Link to this
Jim Wooten, let’s have some straight talk here my friend. The deity that many of us serve did not create African Americans to live in a society as slaves, specifically volunteer slaves. Now don’t get this statement twisted. This is in no way an indictment of white people as others often do, but one of black people; especially the ignorant, bought and paid for, so-called educated integrationist Negroes. And that’s not being negative per se, it’s being truthful.
Why don’t black Americans have respectable institutions of their own? They say that slavery ended in 1865. Badly needed institutions are non-existent because the so-called educated integrationist Negroes conspired and are conspiring as we speak with the powers that be to deprive the masses of black people of human dignity, honor, and freedom in exchange for filthy lucre, money, status, etc. for a select few. Any fool knows that no group of people can survive for long, or remain intact, without institutions which give them support and direction. If African Americans had institutions capable of meeting their basic needs, there would be no legitimate reason for a soul to “taxi to the dark side.”
A forum on white manhood concerning some of their personal failures would be more in touch or aligned with reality, or a better case to make. Here are a people that have institutions capable of servicing their basic needs, food, clothing, shelter, education, employment, etc. and as a consequence are free; free provided that they don’t lose control of their institutions. Why do white people have personal struggles in America would be a legitimate question…
Leah Ward Sears, Bill Cosby, Oprah Winfrey, Jeremiah Wright, and countless forums are all parts of what’s wrong with Black America. I’ve heard prominent black people, fifty, sixty, and seventy years of age say to young black people, “Pull your pants up if you want someone to give you a job. These white people are serious. You are not going to get a job dressing like that.” This is an example of how adults, black men and women, advise their children and community. They sense no contradiction in having only futile advice for their children, and being responsible adults with jobs to provide for them. Black America doesn’t need people who simply tell us what our problems are and show us how to overcome them. We need something more substantial. Like any responsible people, African Americans desperately need people in our community committed to building institutional power capable of meeting our basic needs, while at the same time, providing us with the ability to institutionally address our human failures with something other than talk.
By George Washington
April 22, 2008 11:26 AM | Link to this
George W could not go one round with slick willie clintax, let alone osamba-bin-bomin, dirt ball, you ignorant s……..
By FLY
April 22, 2008 11:33 AM | Link to this
As I sit here in Afghanistan as a civilian contractor I can only shake my head and laugh. The bottom line is our youth lack Leadership—does it matter if they are white or black? Leadership is the process of influencing an individual to accomplish a mission through purpose, motivation, and direction. Most young people that I’ve come into contact do not have a purpose in life, and therefore they do what feel good as oppose to what is good or what can lead to good. In as much young people, especially my people, young blacks lack motivation because there is an absence of a male role model in the home or neighborhood who is willing to take the time to encourage, mentor, and incite passion and drive to be somebody important…in the midst of racism, poverty, and other obstacles life may bring. Lastly, young people lack direction for two reasons. The first reason is MTV and BET are training our children and not real life adults. As a result, they conceptualize a false image of life which leads them down a dangerous road of money, drugs, and women. The second reason young people lack direction is because they fail to take self responsibility before they are forced to take self responsibility. When they learn to take self responsibility for their decisions they are more inclined to think about the positive and negative aspects of their choices.
In all, manhood is rite of passage not a right. You can be 40 years old and never reach manhood—just as you can be 16 years old and reach manhood when you stand up and take on responsibilities. Let us focus not on who said what and what was said, but on how we can take what was said and make a difference by leading boys into manhood.
FLY
By FLY
April 22, 2008 11:33 AM | Link to this
As I sit here in Afghanistan as a civilian contractor I can only shake my head and laugh. The bottom line is our youth lack Leadership—does it matter if they are white or black? Leadership is the process of influencing an individual to accomplish a mission through purpose, motivation, and direction. Most young people that I’ve come into contact do not have a purpose in life, and therefore they do what feel good as oppose to what is good or what can lead to good. In as much young people, especially my people, young blacks lack motivation because there is an absence of a male role model in the home or neighborhood who is willing to take the time to encourage, mentor, and incite passion and drive to be somebody important…in the midst of racism, poverty, and other obstacles life may bring. Lastly, young people lack direction for two reasons. The first reason is MTV and BET are training our children and not real life adults. As a result, they conceptualize a false image of life which leads them down a dangerous road of money, drugs, and women. The second reason young people lack direction is because they fail to take self responsibility before they are forced to take self responsibility. When they learn to take self responsibility for their decisions they are more inclined to think about the positive and negative aspects of their choices.
In all, manhood is rite of passage not a right. You can be 40 years old and never reach manhood—just as you can be 16 years old and reach manhood when you stand up and take on responsibilities. Let us focus not on who said what and what was said, but on how we can take what was said and make a difference by leading boys into manhood.
FLY
By FLY
April 22, 2008 11:33 AM | Link to this
As I sit here in Afghanistan as a civilian contractor I can only shake my head and laugh. The bottom line is our youth lack Leadership—does it matter if they are white or black? Leadership is the process of influencing an individual to accomplish a mission through purpose, motivation, and direction. Most young people that I’ve come into contact do not have a purpose in life, and therefore they do what feel good as oppose to what is good or what can lead to good. In as much young people, especially my people, young blacks lack motivation because there is an absence of a male role model in the home or neighborhood who is willing to take the time to encourage, mentor, and incite passion and drive to be somebody important…in the midst of racism, poverty, and other obstacles life may bring. Lastly, young people lack direction for two reasons. The first reason is MTV and BET are training our children and not real life adults. As a result, they conceptualize a false image of life which leads them down a dangerous road of money, drugs, and women. The second reason young people lack direction is because they fail to take self responsibility before they are forced to take self responsibility. When they learn to take self responsibility for their decisions they are more inclined to think about the positive and negative aspects of their choices.
In all, manhood is rite of passage not a right. You can be 40 years old and never reach manhood—just as you can be 16 years old and reach manhood when you stand up and take on responsibilities. Let us focus not on who said what and what was said, but on how we can take what was said and make a difference by leading boys into manhood.
FLY
By Dusty
April 22, 2008 11:34 AM | Link to this
Peter Rabid..
Osama attended a madrassa.
Osama is “free” in a hole in the mountain tops. Afghanistan is free to run its own government. So is Iraq. I guess you think that is nothing.
Well, I can’t stay here all day talking to simpletons who do not appreciate their own freedom. It is the disgrace of America but liberals don’t mind a little thing like that. They bite the hand that protects them.
Adios!!
(George Washington, you are so predictable. Speaking “nasty” doesn’t cut it these days except for the ignorant.)
By Glenn
April 22, 2008 11:34 AM | Link to this
Charles, what to you is an “institution” when you ask, “Why don’t black Americans have respectable institutions of their own?”
By Jackie
April 22, 2008 11:39 AM | Link to this
@Glenn,
I think your reply to Annette is not correct.
She used the generic term “black community” to mean those that were part of the black experience were putting forth their personal experiences to the collective group to come to a consensus as to offer solutions to the problem.
Submitting solutions to the public that would stick, as you well know, is trying to make one size fit all.
Blacks are not a “collective” that is want to follow one single idea of person. I contend the collective theory does not apply to the white community, therefore, the use of a single-threaded idea is not possible.
What do you consider manhood? Words like that are what I called “ellipses;” sounds good but has little meaning in context.
If one were to follow the logic that is presented today to solve this problem, it could be argued that circular logic is being employed.
Think about it; there are always a series of benchmarks that are laid out with the completion of each one coming right back to the beginning. If one does not complete the circle, there is a complete failure of the logic loop, don’t you think?
If you use the analogy of being a student with a class in quantum physics and your grade depends upon your successful completion of your finals, you have a question of acceptance in this scenario. You studied hard and felt that you did your best to obtain that grade. If you get an 81 on that exam, do you throw it back or take it and go forward with your life’s education? e?
By Jackie
April 22, 2008 11:46 AM | Link to this
@Charles,
My man Charles, glad you were revived.
It is so important that you appear to impart some of your profound and irrefutable wisdom about what is best for blacks.
Last time that you made your presence, you indicated that you would provide a list of folks that you work with and the name of those organizations that you are a part of that provides you and your cohorts with the depth of knowledge about the black community.
I still await your list?
By jbmlaw
April 22, 2008 11:50 AM | Link to this
Dear Tom @ 9:43, Robert Nozick’s philosophy is my model. I do not reject Rawls for inconsistency or misapplication of Kant’s genius – quite the contrary, I have often expressed my admiration for Southern Democrat on this blog, a Rawlsian if ever I saw one. I believe Rawls’s philosophy is condemned by a false premise, that everyone would make the same decision as he did. More to the point you missed, however, I wish all leftists were Rawlsians – at least they would then be susceptible to intelligent argument.
Dear Dennis @ 9:45, we are not so far in disagreement as you believe. “Just maybe, Counselor, the schools are better off by not teaching “god” but rather by just revealing the gods of other cultures to the students (which takes place, I believe, about the time of sixth grade social studies).” I fully agree, except I think that discussion should begin in the second grade, and rather than call is social studies I would call it “comparative religions.” No limits on discussion of doctrines. There is a difference between instruction (1) that “man is the center of the universe,” and (2) there is a higher justice or truth or good in the universe. The government schools teach the former, as it magnifies the role of government overlords in our lives; that is the false premise that leads to the hubris, and leftist worship, of Leviathan.
By Charles
April 22, 2008 11:55 AM | Link to this
Glenn,
You know I’m telling the truth. Black people need institutions to address their human problems. Talk is just not enough. These Negroes have been talking a good game since the days of Marcus Garvey and the Universal Negro Improvement Association.
I don’t expect white people to use their institutions to adequately address the problems of black people.
By Charles
April 22, 2008 12:09 PM | Link to this
Jackie,
You must think I’m a fool. I’m a responsible black person. And responsible black people have real enemies. The last time I commented on a radio station 1380 waok radio am, the host attempted to goad me into revealing my organization and associates. I’m much smarter than that.
That best I can do at this time is www.radioliberty.com. This is a good website for white people and others. I can’t reveal our website because the so-called educated integrationist Negro enemies will attack us from every side assisted by outside powerful forces; just like they attacked Marcus Garvey and the Universal Negro Improvement Association.
By Ed
April 22, 2008 12:09 PM | Link to this
Forgive me for not reading every single post before I offer my own thoughts. More than one poster took Jim to task for making points without being at the forum. Without being there he could only comment and opine on what was reported. If personal responsibility, fatherhood and other relevant topics were discussed, why were they not reported? Could it be that the reporter on the scene did not feel that these topics were important? If that is the case, then it is all the more justification for Jim’s column. What could be more important than urging young people of all races to take responsibility for their actions? If someone else has already pointed this out, please forgive me for making the same point twice.
By FLY
April 22, 2008 12:14 PM | Link to this
As I sit here in Afghanistan as a civilian contractor I can only shake my head and laugh. The bottom line is our youth lack Leadership—does it matter if they are white or black? Leadership is the process of influencing an individual to accomplish a mission through purpose, motivation, and direction. Most young people that I’ve come into contact do not have a purpose in life, and therefore they do what feel good as oppose to what is good or what can lead to good. In as much young people, especially my people, young blacks lack motivation because there is an absence of a male role model in the home or neighborhood who is willing to take the time to encourage, mentor, and incite passion and drive to be somebody important…in the midst of racism, poverty, and other obstacles life may bring. Lastly, young people lack direction for two reasons. The first reason is MTV and BET are training our children and not real life adults. As a result, they conceptualize a false image of life which leads them down a dangerous road of money, drugs, and women. The second reason young people lack direction is because they fail to take self responsibility before they are forced to take self responsibility. When they learn to take self responsibility for their decisions they are more inclined to think about the positive and negative aspects of their choices.
In all, manhood is rite of passage not a right. You can be 40 years old and never reach manhood—just as you can be 16 years old and reach manhood when you stand up and take on responsibilities. Let us focus not on who said what and what was said, but on how we can take what was said and make a difference by leading boys into manhood.
By Skeptic Tank
April 22, 2008 12:16 PM | Link to this
Boys learn about manhood from their FATHERS. The mere fact that such a seminar existed is proof positive that the absentee daddy is causing familial and societal problems that need to be addressed. Unfortunately, the problem is generational and so pervasive that “talking about it” ain’t gonna fix it. As a nation, our individual morals and values have been diminished and ridiculed. We are increasingly irreverent and reckless. Does this mean that some Republican candidate can miraculously change us by spouting off about “family values”? Of course not. Because white man’s hypocrisy is as cancerous as black man’s irresponsibility.
By jbmlaw
April 22, 2008 12:19 PM | Link to this
Dear Glenn @ 9:36, I thought your point pretty clever and funny.
Dear Leftists @ various times today, many of you condemn Jim Wooten for introducing a dialogue on race, today and at other times. Why are you so afraid, or angry? I perceive your code phrase – “dialogue on race” – is nothing more than conventional leftist doublespeak, meaning “we only wish to castigate conservatives for not giving us every giveaway program we want and we’re not going to let you speak unless you apologize first.”
By Charles
April 22, 2008 12:25 PM | Link to this
Jackie,
This is a dangerous game. The so-called educated integrationist Negroes make a lot of money by misguiding the masses of black people.
To provide real and positive leadership to the masses of black people is to threaten their money. They are paid to mislead the people and they are not about to stop getting paid; even if it’s at the expense of their children.
By Charles
April 22, 2008 12:27 PM | Link to this
Jackie,
This is a dangerous game. The so-called educated integrationist Negroes make a lot of money by misguiding the masses of black people.
To provide real and positive leadership to the masses of black people is to threaten their money. They are paid to mislead the people and they are not about to stop getting paid; even if it’s at the expense of their children.
By JK
April 22, 2008 12:28 PM | Link to this
What could be more important than urging young people of all races to take responsibility for their actions?
Ed, I agree that this is an important initiative that deserves more attention that it gets. I think Mr. Wooten’s critics are correct, though. If this topic was so important to Mr. Wooten, why didn’t HE attend and report to us. And if it wasn’t important enough for him to attend, why is he writing a column on hearsay, picking and choosing limited aspects of the topic to present? All the attention on out-of-wedlock births (a regular favorite in this column) by people of color is disingenuous unless you also discuss divorced parents — lots of white faces there — who abandon their responsibilities. Why is there no discussion of “conservative” white men who remarry every six or seven years and start a new family like the Dad in Fight Club? There’s one in my neighborhood, and trust me, his kids have issues.
By Glenn
April 22, 2008 12:32 PM | Link to this
Of course I know the argument, Charles. I got it from the best. But again, what in your mind is an institution, of the sort that’s lacking?
jbm,
Thanks. Meredith Willson was a very great artist; more so than O. Henry or Richard Rodgers. He was in my vain opinion on a par with Twain and Ellington.
Hey PoFo,
I was sitting here since the small hours, cranking out a proposal quick ‘n’ lowdown—-just as I like ‘em—-and your “Havanaise” shuffled up right at the home stretch. Very cool. Thanks for that.
For the rest, thanks a pantload.
By FLY
April 22, 2008 12:33 PM | Link to this
As I sit here in Afghanistan as a civilian contractor I can only shake my head and laugh. The bottom line is our youth lack Leadership—does it matter if they are white or black? Leadership is the process of influencing an individual to accomplish a mission through purpose, motivation, and direction. Most young people that I’ve come into contact do not have a purpose in life, and therefore they do what feel good as oppose to what is good or what can lead to good. In as much young people, especially my people, young blacks lack motivation because there is an absence of a male role model in the home or neighborhood who is willing to take the time to encourage, mentor, and incite passion and drive to be somebody important…in the midst of racism, poverty, and other obstacles life may bring. Lastly, young people lack direction for two reasons. The first reason is MTV and BET are training our children and not real life adults. As a result, they conceptualize a false image of life which leads them down a dangerous road of money, drugs, and women. The second reason young people lack direction is because they fail to take self responsibility before they are forced to take self responsibility. When they learn to take self responsibility for their decisions they are more inclined to think about the positive and negative aspects of their choices.
In all, manhood is rite of passage not a right. You can be 40 years old and never reach manhood—just as you can be 16 years old and reach manhood when you stand up and take on responsibilities. Let us focus not on who said what and what was said, but on how we can take what was said and make a difference by leading boys into manhood.
By FLY
April 22, 2008 12:33 PM | Link to this
As I sit here in Afghanistan as a civilian contractor I can only shake my head and laugh. The bottom line is our youth lack Leadership—does it matter if they are white or black? Leadership is the process of influencing an individual to accomplish a mission through purpose, motivation, and direction. Most young people that I’ve come into contact do not have a purpose in life, and therefore they do what feel good as oppose to what is good or what can lead to good. In as much young people, especially my people, young blacks lack motivation because there is an absence of a male role model in the home or neighborhood who is willing to take the time to encourage, mentor, and incite passion and drive to be somebody important…in the midst of racism, poverty, and other obstacles life may bring. Lastly, young people lack direction for two reasons. The first reason is MTV and BET are training our children and not real life adults. As a result, they conceptualize a false image of life which leads them down a dangerous road of money, drugs, and women. The second reason young people lack direction is because they fail to take self responsibility before they are forced to take self responsibility. When they learn to take self responsibility for their decisions they are more inclined to think about the positive and negative aspects of their choices.
In all, manhood is rite of passage not a right. You can be 40 years old and never reach manhood—just as you can be 16 years old and reach manhood when you stand up and take on responsibilities. Let us focus not on who said what and what was said, but on how we can take what was said and make a difference by leading boys into manhood.
By FLY
April 22, 2008 12:33 PM | Link to this
As I sit here in Afghanistan as a civilian contractor I can only shake my head and laugh. The bottom line is our youth lack Leadership—does it matter if they are white or black? Leadership is the process of influencing an individual to accomplish a mission through purpose, motivation, and direction. Most young people that I’ve come into contact do not have a purpose in life, and therefore they do what feel good as oppose to what is good or what can lead to good. In as much young people, especially my people, young blacks lack motivation because there is an absence of a male role model in the home or neighborhood who is willing to take the time to encourage, mentor, and incite passion and drive to be somebody important…in the midst of racism, poverty, and other obstacles life may bring. Lastly, young people lack direction for two reasons. The first reason is MTV and BET are training our children and not real life adults. As a result, they conceptualize a false image of life which leads them down a dangerous road of money, drugs, and women. The second reason young people lack direction is because they fail to take self responsibility before they are forced to take self responsibility. When they learn to take self responsibility for their decisions they are more inclined to think about the positive and negative aspects of their choices.
In all, manhood is rite of passage not a right. You can be 40 years old and never reach manhood—just as you can be 16 years old and reach manhood when you stand up and take on responsibilities. Let us focus not on who said what and what was said, but on how we can take what was said and make a difference by leading boys into manhood.
By PartyLine
April 22, 2008 12:35 PM | Link to this
Glenn @ 10:53, “…It’s such a racket, and quite undemocratic in that if they had something to say they’d just offer it to the marketplace of ideas and see whether it sticks—-and dispense with all the rigamarole about how they have special knowledge of the topic of their assertion…”
I hear you loud and clear. I have almost the exact same thoughts every time our state legislature convenes, or when the U.S. Congress meets, or even our county commissioners get together. It’s just amazing how things work, isn’t it.
By Jackie
April 22, 2008 12:37 PM | Link to this
@Charles,
You are not perceived to a fool in any respect.
In all candor, I do consider you a fake and phony.
If you were so concerned about applying your wealth of knowledge and the depth of your experience to the black community, you would be more than happy to have all of those who share this philosophy, provide a proverbial seat at your organization(s) table.
Be honest, you are are no more than a keyboard Judas?
More specifically, you are the figment of someone’s imagination. You are no more concerned with helping the black community as I am concerned about the sun not rising again.
You argument is without merit and depth of knowledge.
You speak in well-structured and effusive phrases, yet, you say nothing of substance.
By Charles
April 22, 2008 12:51 PM | Link to this
Glenn,
An institution in my mind is any organized entity having the necessities and the ability to service the basic needs, food, clothing, shelter, educate, employ, etc. black people and others.
In my mind, institutions have those abilities. Do you see them in the black community? Do you see one?
What in your mind is an institution Glenn? I would love to hear your definition. I see many in the white community.
By Sandy_G
April 22, 2008 12:52 PM | Link to this
Aquagirl, I know a black man who would love to be a parent to his son, but the mother will not allow it. This man stepped up, paid her child support and would drive from Atlanta to New Orleans on a regular basis to see his son. All mom would allow was for him to sit on the front steps with his son. She wouldn’t allow him to take his son to the park, to a ball game, nothing. But let that child support check be one day late, and all hell would break loose. He had to hire an attorney and take her to court to get some type of visitation with his son so that he could have a relationship with his child.
On one hand, you have the government saying we need fathers to “step up” and on the other hand, you have judges telling fathers that it would be “disruptive” to the children if they were to live with Dad some of the time. So which is it? Do you really want fathers, or just paychecks? If you want fathers, then perhaps government agencies that are set up to help moms get court orders for child support free of charge, paid for by the taxpayers, could also offer fathers the ability to get court orders for visitation and parenting time with their children. Explain to me why females get free legal help but males are told to “hire an attorney”. How many low income black males do you know that can afford $10,000+ for an attorney to establish legal visitation with their child/children? How many low income black males do you know that can afford to pay 23% to 33% of their GROSS income for child support and still be able to support themselves?
If you want fathers to “step up”, you have to first allow the ones who do step up to have access to their children and the ability to help financially without 1) being unable to keep a roof over their own heads or 2) go to jail because they get behind on child support due to the loss of their job, an illness, etc.
Many low income fathers get behind on child support because they lose a job, get laid off and have to take a job making less money. They can’t afford to hire an attorney to get their child support reduced, they can’t afford to pay the full amount of child support, the unpaid amount begins to accrue interest and before long, they end up in jail because they can’t pay. A lot of men who are trying to do the right thing cannot win with the court system and the family laws that we currently have in place.
If you want to change things, laws need to be changed so that fathers who want to do the right thing and are trying to do the right thing by their children can stay part of their children’s lives. The number one thing standing in the way of changing the laws, are liberal politicians and women’s groups.
The majority of men who are ordered to pay child support pay it. Some men don’t pay it, but a much higher percentage of women who are ordered to pay child support go the deadbeat route than men.
I’m tired of women blaming men for fatherless children. If you want a father for your child, then be a little more selective on who you sleep with and perhaps even consider marrying someone before deciding to produce children with them. If women want men to be responsible, then women need to be responsible too.
By Glenn
April 22, 2008 12:55 PM | Link to this
Well yes, PartyLine, if by “amazing” you mean disgraceful. That same dynamic is wrong in all places. So why don’t we do what we can to fight the expert systems approach wherever we find it inappropriate or hostile to, or counterproductive in, a democratic republic?
By Jackie
April 22, 2008 1:04 PM | Link to this
@Sandy_G
Profound!
By FLY
April 22, 2008 1:08 PM | Link to this
Friends Sorry for the multiple replies.
FLY
By Charles
April 22, 2008 1:08 PM | Link to this
Jackie,
That’s what I expected you to say. But listen carefully my friend. I understand that it’s possible you may be a player in the New World Order System. But if you and other white people don’t get control of your institutions, you too will be seen in the eyes of other people as no more than a keyboard Judas.
You have been warned my friend. If this integrationist New World Order crowd is successful, the masses of white people too will become volunteer slaves in the land which their forefathers conquered.
Its lunch time everybody. I’ve got to get something healthy to eat. I will talk to everyone later; God willing.
By PartyLine
April 22, 2008 1:09 PM | Link to this
Well said, Sandy_G @ 12:52. If I could do anything to get you in a leadership position or other role as a public servant, I certainly would. For some reason, you don’t come across as the politician type though. You sounded too much like someone that Really Thinks about others. I wish you well.
By George Washington
April 22, 2008 1:10 PM | Link to this
Well, ah’ve been gone a bit, buyin’ and sellin’ oil, gasoline, wheat, corn, and rice futures and when ah returns to ah finds the dirt ball dusty has cut and run again…ya can run dusy, but ya can’t hide, that stench gives ya away…
By Peter
April 22, 2008 1:15 PM | Link to this
Dusty I think your Posts are “Nothing”, and your “Opinion” is based on being a BLIND follower……
Bush has NOT been a leader, he has Not gone after Bin Laden, the guy who created 911, and he has done nothing but bring our country down in value.
Inflation is High, our dollar is weak, the housing and economic markets HAVE to be rescued, and all the while BUSH is spending money like a drunken sailor, with zero responsibility to ours, and the next generation.
He is NOT protecting us, he is wasting our resources…….and as today is EARTH DAY, funny Jim didn’t mention anything about that…..
No wonder…. as the USA under BUSH is the biggest cause of Global warming…..BUSH is NOT very Earth friendly !
By AmVet
April 22, 2008 1:15 PM | Link to this
Sven had it right in his 9:20.
But there’s one catch.
Yyou have to hold his “writings” upside down and face a mirror.
And then it reads:
The weak are vilified and the wicked glorified.
By George Washington
April 22, 2008 1:19 PM | Link to this
Peter, here watch this, it’ll make it all Right: .. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCK7N4kn7uc
By George Washington
April 22, 2008 1:25 PM | Link to this
MYSTERY LIGHTS OVER ARIZONA, FLORIDA; RESIDENTS SPOOKED - Ah yes, Osama’s foreign allies have arrived from deep space…Uncle Stupid is gonna git a spankin’ now….
By George Washington
April 22, 2008 1:29 PM | Link to this
NEW YORK (AP) - A former U.S. Army mechanical engineer was arrested Tuesday on charges he slipped classified documents about nuclear weapons to an employee of the Israeli Consulate who also received information from convicted Pentagon spy Jonathan Pollard, authorities announced. Ben-ami Kadish faces four counts of conspiracy, including allegations that he conspired to disclose U.S. national defense documents to Israel and that he acted as an agent of the Israeli government, U.S. Attorney Michael J. Garcia and FBI officials said.
A criminal complaint said the activities occurred from 1979 through 1985 while Kadish worked at the Army’s Armament Research, Development and Engineering Center in Dover, N.J.
Kadish, a U.S. citizen, is accused of taking classified documents home several times and letting the Israeli government worker photograph them.
The documents included information about nuclear weapons, a modified version of an F-15 fighter jet, and the Patriot missile air defense system, the complaint said.
According to the complaint, the Israeli government worker on numerous occasions during 1979-1985 gave Kadish lists of U.S. national defense classified documents for Kadish to obtain.
The complaint said Kadish, born in Connecticut, was employed from October 1963 to January 1990 as a mechanical engineer at the Army’s Picatinny Arsenal in Dover, where the research center is based.
The complaint said the Israeli worker, whose name was not given, is an Israeli citizen. It said that in the late 1970s, he was employed at Israeli Aircraft Industries in Israel, a defense manufacturing contractor for the Israeli government.
From July 1980 through November 1985, he was the consul for science affairs at the Israeli Consulate General in Manhattan, the complaint said.
The complaint noted that Pollard was charged in November 1985 with espionage-related offense after he provided classified information to the same Israeli worker, among other people.
The Israeli worker left the United States in November 1985 and has not returned, the complaint said.
Pollard, a former civilian intelligence analyst for the U.S. Navy, pleaded guilty while standing trial for transferring military secrets to Israel while working at the Pentagon. He is serving a life sentence. ANOTHER TRAITOR OF THE DUAL CITIZENSHIP JEWISH PERSUASION - JUST LIKE WOLFIE, PEARLIE, FILTHY FEITHIE, AND LIAR LIBBIE- YET THE MAIN STREAM MEDIA STILL CENSORS ANYONE WHO TELLS THE TRUTH ABOUT ISRAEL AND DUAL CITIZENSHIP AMERICAN JEWS…
By bill t cat
April 22, 2008 1:36 PM | Link to this
Some of the Black community is doing better that this reporter thinks. Our neighborhood is 50-50 black/white and EVERY child (so far)upon graduating high school has gone on to college.
By Glenn
April 22, 2008 1:36 PM | Link to this
Nah, Charles, that definition works for me. I just needed to know what works for you, as I’m over-trained in cultural studies in which the word has as many shadings as Texans have for sh!t.
Right off, I want to point out that the Black Church is the heart and soul of Christianity in America. Further, religion is the originary human institution, the one from which the others flowed. (Prohibition, and therefore Law and its enforcement; medicine; science; Gender; marriage, etc.) So if you’re going to start with just one institution, you can’t do better than religion for this institution-building thing.
Next, we now have something that Douglass and Booker T. and Carver and Malcolm, and also DuBois and even Garvey, once dreamt of: big butter-and-egg black entrepreneurs. And big companies with big payrolls. Hallelujah. (Shall we mention all the taxes that were paid out for decades by every millionaire and seamstress in America to sponsor and boost Minority-owned Business Enterprises?)
And then there are some very fine colleges and universities of and for both black women and black men. I’m partial to Howard myself, as I am immensely indebted to J.H. Franklin and also happen to hold up O.O. Howard as a personal hero. (Perhaps Gen. Howard, and Gen. Pershing after him, should not have participated in black education, since they were disqualified by birth?) I happen to believe that the University (universal) is approaching its finest hour (unawares)—-so I wouldn’t sell these particular institutional advantages short just now.
So those are some damn fine institutional assets, of a the sort that only a few visionaries once thought possible on these shores.
By George Washington
April 22, 2008 1:38 PM | Link to this
Saying Pollard is serving a life sentence for transfering military secrets is an understatement: Mr. Pollard gave to Massad a complete list of the entire American spy network in the former soviet union. Our alleged allies in Israel then sold that list to the Soviets in exchange for the right of a few Russian jews to immigrate to Israel. Our entire spy network was arrested, including entire families of our agents. All were tortured and ultimately executed. Yet we continue to support Israel, their spy in New York was never prosecuted, and is to this day refered to merely as an “Israeli government employee.” The FBI needs desperately to arrest and interrogate the entire pro israeli lobby, including any and all sitting jewish congressmen and senators, and all government officials, including the head of homeland security.
By George Washington
April 22, 2008 1:41 PM | Link to this
Saying Pollard is serving a life sentence for transfering military secrets is an understatement: Mr. Pollard gave to Massad a complete list of the entire American spy network in the former soviet union. Our alleged allies in Israel then sold that list to the Soviets in exchange for the right of a few Russian jews to immigrate to Israel. Our entire spy network was arrested, including entire families of our agents. All were tortured and ultimately executed. Yet we continue to support Israel, their spy in New York was never prosecuted, and is to this day refered to merely as an “Israeli government employee.” The FBI needs desperately to arrest and interrogate the entire pro israeli lobby, including any and all sitting jewish congressmen and senators, and all government officials, including the head of homeland security.
By Glenn
April 22, 2008 1:56 PM | Link to this
Not to mention those cunning damned dual-citizenship Canadians…
By George Washington
April 22, 2008 2:17 PM | Link to this
The canadians have not stolen nuclear weapons secrets from us, or any other secrets for that matter…The special modifications to the F-15 were to make the plane nuclear weapons capable….We have given non nuclear capable F-15’s to israel, so they stole the plans to make the planes capable of carrying nuclear weapons…Kinda undercuts our complaints against North Korea giving nuclear technology and delivery systems to Iran, eh….
By Dusty
April 22, 2008 2:30 PM | Link to this
George Washington,1:41
Where do you get all this cloak and dagger stuff that tries to make Israel look like dirt instead of our ally? Al jazeera would be my guess.
Pollard is one thing. What you are suggesting is another.
Are you some kind of propaganda stooge to prove what a bigot you are? It’s working!! YOU sound like a real bonehead bigot about Jews.
By George Washington
April 22, 2008 2:37 PM | Link to this
Talk about your media coverups, not a word about the arrest of this israeli spy in the Washington Post….
By FreeAmerican
April 22, 2008 2:38 PM | Link to this
Jim,
Let me know the date of your summit begin on manhood. If you look at the amount of crime, it needs to be taught to all and not just young “black” males.
By FreeAmerican
April 22, 2008 2:38 PM | Link to this
Jim,
Let me know the date of your summit on manhood. If you look at the amount of crime, it needs to be taught to all and not just young “black” males.
By George Washington
April 22, 2008 2:44 PM | Link to this
Dusty lives up to her ostritch image…Pollard is just the tip of the ice berg, hag.
By Charles
April 22, 2008 2:45 PM | Link to this
Glenn,
I had a great lunch. Hope everyone did too.
I read the blasphemy that you wrote during my absence. Let me set the record straight.
People who have credible institutions see the world differently than people who do not. The black Church is largely a slave church; the white Jesus to boot. Don’t even mention the slave doctrine. But only a slave gospel can be preached to a slave minded people. I don’t know of any competent scholar who thinks very highly of the black church. But I must confess that with all of its imperfections and that of others; it’s the best religious organization of the worse
Garvey, Douglass, Booker T., Carver, Malcolm, and even Dubois would not give any support to what has been erected in the black community by so-called black entrepreneurs. Thanks to integration, most black entrepreneurs have little connection/responsibility to black people and the black community. That’s the critical difference between then and now. It falsely appears that what they may have dreamed for is what we presently have.
All of the aforementioned men even Dubois had some bonding with the black community. Given the identity or lack thereof that black entrepreneurs have to the black community, they might as well be white people because they are integrationist. They love everybody and don’t even love black people.
What fine black colleges and universities? Most so-called black colleges and universities are controlled and funded by white people. Most of the faculty positions in black colleges and universities are staffed by white people, specifically white females. That’s not my conception of a competent, worthwhile, black institution. It’s certainly not what Marcus Garvey worked toward.
By George Washington
April 22, 2008 2:48 PM | Link to this
Hey Dusty, how do you explain the fact the Israeli Mossad sold the list of our spies to the Soviets? That was no Mr. Pollard, that was our alleged allies in israel…..
By GW
April 22, 2008 2:56 PM | Link to this
My loyal believers, especially Dusty,
It has come to my attention that some of you may be mistaking me for George Washington. Well, let me tell you, George Washington is dead. He had his chance, now it is mine. Do not listen, especially you, Dusty, to the rantings of someone else with the same initials as mine. I am the only GW. I am your true leader. Now, send in those war tax payments and quit bothering yourself with spies, and Israel, and personal liberties. I know what is best for you and I am taking care of you right now. Your manhood is safe.
Your Welcome, Your True Leader, GW
By George Washington
April 22, 2008 3:09 PM | Link to this
At least the ny times has the balls to carry this story: ”
April 22, 2008 Army Veteran Charged With Passing Secrets to Israel By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS Filed at 1:54 p.m. ET
NEW YORK (AP) — A former U.S. Army mechanical engineer was arrested Tuesday on charges he slipped classified documents about nuclear weapons to an employee of the Israeli Consulate who also received information from convicted Pentagon spy Jonathan Pollard, authorities announced.
Ben-ami Kadish faces four counts of conspiracy, including allegations that he conspired to disclose U.S. national defense documents to Israel and that he acted as an agent of the Israeli government, U.S. Attorney Michael J. Garcia and FBI officials said.
A criminal complaint said the activities occurred from 1979 through 1985 while Kadish worked at the Army’s Armament Research, Development and Engineering Center in Dover, N.J.
Kadish, a U.S. citizen, is accused of taking classified documents home several times and letting the Israeli government worker photograph them.
The documents included information about nuclear weapons, a modified version of an F-15 fighter jet, and the Patriot missile air defense system, the complaint said.
According to the complaint, the Israeli government worker on numerous occasions during 1979-1985 gave Kadish lists of U.S. national defense classified documents for Kadish to obtain.
The complaint said Kadish, born in Connecticut, was employed from October 1963 to January 1990 as a mechanical engineer at the Army’s Picatinny Arsenal in Dover, where the research center is based.
The complaint said the Israeli worker, whose name was not given, is an Israeli citizen. It said that in the late 1970s, he was employed at Israeli Aircraft Industries in Israel, a defense manufacturing contractor for the Israeli government.
From July 1980 through November 1985, he was the consul for science affairs at the Israeli Consulate General in Manhattan, the complaint said.
There was no immediate response to calls seeking consulate comment Tuesday.
The complaint noted that Pollard was charged in November 1985 with espionage-related offense after he provided classified information to the same Israeli worker, among other people.
The Israeli worker left the United States in November 1985 and has not returned, the complaint said.
Pollard, a former civilian intelligence analyst for the U.S. Navy, pleaded guilty while standing trial for transferring military secrets to Israel while working at the Pentagon. He is serving a life sentence.”
By Dusty
April 22, 2008 3:11 PM | Link to this
George Washington, expert in name calling but short on brains…
You forgot to mention the source of your propaganda against Israel. Perhaps the news people are not printing rumors and riffraff from hate blogs. Too bad you are not smart enough to tell trash from truth.
By George Washington
April 22, 2008 3:12 PM | Link to this
The story about the Israeli spy is not on the Clinton News Network, or on The Fake News Network….Gee, ah wonder why?
By Aquagirl
April 22, 2008 3:13 PM | Link to this
Sandy @ 12:52, check your logic…if women should be discriminate in their reproductive choices, so should men. Having kids with women who don’t allow them to participate in the child’s life is a bad choice of babymamas. By your standards, these men have no one to blame but themselves, unless you buy their BS that they just can’t keep it in their pants when random booty is presented. When you hold women more responsible for picking genetic donors, then don’t cry about judges being disposed towards women in child custody.
You are also overlooking the fact that divorced men are, well, divorced. Few people are blameless when a relationship falls apart, so please spare me the stories of selfless men separated from their children due to the evil ex-wife. Stay with the mother/wife and child support is not an issue. Visitation is not an issue either. Liberal politicians and women’s groups have nothing to do with it.
Kids do need to live with one parent or the other, your poor trampled fathers don’t understand they can’t pass their children back and forth like a football. If their marriage dissolves, they should be prepared to take full custody or see their kids when it’s good for the kids. If they couldn’t keep living with the child’s mother, bummer…they either made a bad choice for a relationship or they screwed up the relationship themselves. Tough noogies.
By George Washington
April 22, 2008 3:15 PM | Link to this
The la times and the chicago trib are not carrying the story either…hmm, could there be a connection…Zell no, no connection…
By GW
April 22, 2008 3:20 PM | Link to this
My loyal followers,
Now that we had whooped the tar out of those tough Iranians and members of Al Queda that were posing as Iraqis, it is time to start our mop up operations within the green zone in Baghdad and declare this war against Iraqi terrorism a success. Now it is time for me to divulge to you, my loyal followers, the newest member of the Axis Of EEEEEEEvillll. China has been sneaking around behind our backs and supplying weapons of mass destruction to Zimbabwe. We have intelligence reports from Plame’s successor that confirms our worst suspicions — these weapons will be used to attack my close and personal friends in the oil industry. This cannot be allowed to happen before my term is up. Otherwise, I’ll never be able to show my face in Texas again. I’ll be forced into exile with Dick in Saudi Arabia. I simply cannot allow that to happen for Condi’s sake. Who will take care of her and nurture her. She still believes in me.
Your Welcome, Your True Leader, GW
By George Washington
April 22, 2008 3:21 PM | Link to this
The source for my story about Israeli Treason against America: April 22, 2008 Army Veteran Charged With Passing Secrets to Israel By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS Filed at 1:54 p.m. ET
By Wally Sutton
April 22, 2008 3:29 PM | Link to this
Lots of similar syntactical choices for all these different IDs.
Notice how the only science the Right believes in is aryan anthropological theories.
Wooten’s racial parries are easily foiled. He points to the cost of unwed motherhood. Whites make up more than half of that cost. To derive a conclusion based on the strength of percentage-of-population is to imply that white unwed parents are somehow not the problem, when they comprise the vast majority of the cases.
By Devastator
April 22, 2008 3:34 PM | Link to this
Hillary Clinton will win Pennsylvania.
Arguments over the meaning or meaninglessness of her win will dominate MSM and stretch bandwidth to its breaking point. Bloggers and pundits will dust off their favorite boxing metaphors: “Hillary’s off the ropes!” “Obama can’t land the knockout!” Hillbots will rejoice, Obamabots will panic, and McCainbots will watch Murder She Wrote and go to bed at six-thirty. I’ll probably write a scathing post attempting to prove that Hillary is the devil incarnate. We’ll all lose our minds.
In hope of preventing some of this hysteria (especially my own), I thought it’d be helpful to keep a few things in mind during Tuesday night’s results — from Hillary’s “victory” speech to the blizzard of spin that’s sure to follow:
Remember that there’s no way Hillary can become the nominee without a superdelegate coup — which would alienate a generation of young Democrats and dangerously fracture the party.
Remember that her campaign leaked internals showing an eleven point lead (as a means of firing up her supporters and getting out the vote). Therefore, any win smaller than eleven points should be considered a disappointment by her own assessment.
Remember that every time Hillary begins a sentence with “you know,” or “my opponent,” the next thing out of her mouth is a lie.
Remember that when Clinton surrogates say “this proves Obama can’t win the big states,” they’re ignoring the fact that he actually won more delegates in Texas — not to mention twice as many states as she has.
Remember that when the pundits argue that Obama can’t win in white rural areas because they broke for Hillary, they’re ignoring the fact that he won (in alphabetical order): Alaska, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Idaho, Iowa, Kansas, Maine, Maryland, Minnesota, Nebraska, North Dakota, Utah, Vermont, Virginia, Washington, Wisconsin, and Wyoming.
Remember that when Hillary talks about who will be “better against John McCain in the fall,” she’s talking about the fall of 2012.
Remember that Hillary’s campaign is $10M in debt, while Obama’s has more than $40M in cash on hand.
Remember that Hillary’s lead in Pennsylvania was as a high as 26 points only a month ago.
Remember that Hillary’s late Pennsylvania rebound was forged in the fires of negativity and fear-mongering.
Remember that the only manufacturing job Hillary ever brought to Pennsylvania was the manufactured notion that she was a middle-class, whisky-swilling duck killer, and not an anti-union multi-millionaire.
By Sandy_G
April 22, 2008 3:36 PM | Link to this
“they either made a bad choice for a relationship or they screwed up the relationship themselves.”
So, Aquagirl, any failed relationship is the fault of the man 100% of the time? And all mothers are wonderful parents right? Then why is it that most child abuse/neglect is perpetrated by single mothers? Is this also the fault of men?
“When you hold women more responsible for picking genetic donors, then don’t cry about judges being disposed towards women in child custody.” Huh? Men are “genetic donors”? Never did I say that women are MORE responsible for choosing a fit father, only that they bear SOME of the responsibility. You can’t lay down with an unemployed, player who already has fathered illegitimate children and expect to have him transformed into a responsible, involved, loving father to the child that you give birth to nine months later.
“Stay with the mother/wife and child support is not an issue. Visitation is not an issue either.” And what if mommy decides that stable, normal, boring old Daddy is no fun anymore and she gets a boy toy on the side and leaves good old Dad and files for divorce? How exactly is he supposed to know that the woman who stood up in church in front of God and everyone and took vows will decide 10 years later that she’s “just not happy” and walk away from her commitment to her marriage?
You’re not biased against men at all are you?
In your mind, all men are low-life dogs and all women are right, all of the time. If a marriage fails, it’s the man’s fault. If the woman decides to do everything in her power to alienate the man from his children, that’s his fault too, right? If judges have a predisposed bias toward women as the better parent, that’s just tough noogies for the man. Problem is, it hurts the children way more than it hurts the man.
If more women could love their children more than they hate thier ex’s, more kids would have involved fathers.
By jbmlaw
April 22, 2008 3:40 PM | Link to this
Dear George, you grossly overstate your case @ 2:48, but you are right to raise the Pollard story again. Cap Weinberger testified that Pollard ought to be executed for treason - not conventional testimony about one who pleads to a single count of passing secrets to an allied government. Kadish was perhaps the source of the “index” used by Israeli agents to ask for specific documents from Pollard.
Funny how this case mixes the political spectrum. Pro-Israel conservatives calling for his execution, Pro-Israel democrats calling for his pardon. Thanks for reminding me to re-read what I had forgotten.
By Devastator
April 22, 2008 3:42 PM | Link to this
A NIXON FOR OBAMA!!
Julie Nixon Eisenhower donated the most allowed to the Obama campaign. If the children who have inhabited the White House are America’s princes and princesses, Senator Barack Obama already got a head start in collecting royal blessings with Caroline Kennedy’s endorsement earlier this year.
But soon after Ms. Kennedy made her very public endorsement at the end of January, one of her predecessors of Republican lineage made her own private one.
Just before the crush of states that voted on Feb. 5, Ms. Eisenhower, one of two daughters of President Richard M. Nixon and his wife, Pat, made a $1,000 contribution to Mr. Obama, according to campaign finance records. Two weeks later, she gave another $1,000. And early last month, she donated another $300, reaching the contribution limit for individuals for the primary.
In her decision to give to Mr. Obama, Ms. Eisenhower might have been influenced by her sister-in-law, Susan Eisenhower, who wrote an Op-Ed for the Washington Post in February entitled, “Why I’m Backing Obama,” alluding to how her grandfather, who with Nixon as his running mate, delivered the White House to Republicans after a 20-year drought, was able to attract cross-over support from Democrats.
Julie Nixon Eisenhower, who wrote a biography of her mother and is active in civic causes in the Philadelphia area, has given sporadically over the years to Republican candidates and committees, according to campaign finance records. She gave $1,000 to President Bush and another $1,000 to the Republican National Committee, for instance, in the 2004 election cycle. In the 2000 presidential race, she donated $1,000 to Senator John McCain’s unsuccessful run.
By George Washington
April 22, 2008 3:43 PM | Link to this
Ah Sandy, having sex does not constitute a relationship….Men mostly do not even like the women they have sex with, and that makes the sex even better….Ah hears women have to actually like their sexual partners…hmm, that would explain the artificial insemination wave sweep d y kedom and single women havin’t brats…betya the foster jodie got hers the artificial way….
By AmVet
April 22, 2008 3:44 PM | Link to this
Congratulations Bushco! (and fans)
Today’s USA Today/Gallup poll showed Bush now has the highest disapproval rating of any US President in the 70-year history of the poll.
69% of Americans now (finally) see this administration for the long, slow, agonizing train wreck that it is (and always has been).
Do I hear 75?
80?
With nine months left there is always the distinct possibility that our fighter pilot hero has yet another major blunder up his sleeve and then who knows what that final number may be.
Ala Mr. Gore, the debate is over!
As regards this being the worst US President in the republic’s long history…
By getalife
April 22, 2008 3:54 PM | Link to this
“JS: I’m going to cut through the spin for you, sir. This is what I’m here for. There’s a lot of insinuation amongst the pundits, etc., about these controversies. The Rev. Wright controversy, the flag pin controversy…by the way, I’m wearing mine, it’s just pinned directly to my chest. I can tell you what the real concern is and you can answer the question here, right here, right now and put it all to bed.
BO: Right.
JS: Sir, we are concerned that ultimately, at the end of the day, if you are fortunate enough to get the Democratic nomination, fortunate enough to become President of the United States, will you pull a ‘bait and switch’, sir, and enslave the white race? Is that your plan? And if it is your plan, be honest, tell us now.
BO:That is not our plan, Jon. But I think your paranoia might make you suitable as a debate moderator.”
Funny, like jim, a white repub knowing what is best for others.
By willie b
April 22, 2008 4:05 PM | Link to this
Bush made a cameo appearance on the NBC game show, Deal or No Deal, and even made fun of his own abysmal approval ratings in a prerecorded message to an Army officer who was a contestant on the show.
The crowd roared with applause as the worst president in modern history made a complete fool out of himself in front of the world…again. He even invited host Howie Mandel to come to D.C. to play the game Capitol Hill-style:
What a total buffoon!
By Jackie
April 22, 2008 4:12 PM | Link to this
@AmVet,
The Repubs in the Senate are fighting to stop the Webb(D-VA) GI Bill, saying that it will cost too much.
Dubya and the Repubs say the House version is better because of budget considerations.
With the economy in a virtual tailspin, Kornyn(R-TX) has sponsored an “emergency version” of the H1B that will allow a 77% percent increase in visas. Business and academic studies have shown there are Americans that have advanced engineering and technical degrees with experience in the high tech industry that are without jobs. These folks argue it is necessary to increase the size of the quotas to help business fill their needs with cheap labor.
By Jackie
April 22, 2008 4:21 PM | Link to this
@George Washington,
The Israeli spy story today is only a tip of the iceberg.
There is currently a case being litigated that has 3 members of APAIC charged with possession of TOP-SECRET documentation they planned to pass on to Israel. The Justice Department is trying to keep this item out of public.
The intelligence community has a special division set up to stop spying by Israel as they contend Israel has the largest and most extensive spy network in the USA.
By RenaP
April 22, 2008 4:33 PM | Link to this
I quote from a song - the good old days weren’t always good and tomorrow aint as bad as it seems.
Like every other history in America we forget fact. Marriages of the past weren’t so much better. Women had no rights. Men beat their wives. Now we talk about it. So many people lived in fear. Women did not speak up if their spouses hit them. They stayed in the marriage. Don’t kid yourself that the 50s was the time to live!
As far as what the lawyer told the men about not allowing cops to search their cars, homes, etc. Anyone that thinks this is not something that young people should know has to be WHITE. I’m a white woman married to a black American man. You can’t even imagine how many times I get pulled over when my husband is driving. And for no reason. Even though I personally don’t agree that you can just tell a cop no. Well you can if you want the crap beat out of you, or if you feel like going to jail for the night. I have actually been in positions that I was extremely afraid of a Cobb County police. They are there to protect us - but the way my family looks at it - is they are there to harass us.
Its an unfair America. And nobody knows it better than a black American!
By AmVet
April 22, 2008 4:44 PM | Link to this
Dammit Jackie!
I was having a nice enough afternoon and then you had to bring up Senate Bill 22.
Every time I think about these chickenhawks in Washington pounding their chests and saying how they support the troops, I want to freaking throw up!
I must confess I have not read everything in it (talk about arduous!), but have looked at it quite closely and again confess I don’t know the subtle differences between the two pending pieces of legislation.
I do believe it is a MAJOR blunder for McCain to oppose it.
And in aligning himself with an administration that has consistently supported the war, but no so much the troops (stop loss, involuntary extensions, gutting the reserves) and which always puts the almighty dollar (theirs and their cronies?) first, is a very big red flag.
You want to see these incompetent b@stards REALLY support the troops?
Implement Nader’s top-down draft recommendation.
4044 Americans needlessly KIA for these “conservative” screw ups.
They can all go to hell.
By DebbieDoRight
April 22, 2008 5:02 PM | Link to this
Right On Renae!!
About today’s topic—I’m a little late into the fray but….
If Wooten, which he admitted, wasn’t there at the forum and is just depending on what someone wrote or left out in a column, what the HECK is he talking about?!
Has his dementia gotten so bad, that he’s “making up” conversations with his make-believe friends on Never-Never Island?
WOOTEN: Not addressed, apparently, was manhood, as in fatherhood. Or manhood, as in taking responsibility.
How the heck would he know?! Was he there?! Or was he, true to his repuglican upbringing, only pretending to know what the heck was he talking about?
By George Washington
April 22, 2008 5:03 PM | Link to this
Thank you Jackie, I thought I was alone in pointing out Israeli crimes against America and American. Thank You
By George Washington
April 22, 2008 5:06 PM | Link to this
In his state of the union address, George Bush promised to introduce legislation to allow GI Education benefits to be transfered from the Veteran to his or her children…Has he done so? I think not….
By Aquagirl
April 22, 2008 5:11 PM | Link to this
Sandy @ 3:32, no I don’t have anything against men. You, however, dropped in this morning with a barely-connected diatribe fomented by your hubby’s ex. This gives the appearance you have something against women.
Sure, there are saintlike men out there who had no way of knowing their babycarrier would morph into witches with a capital B. They are offset by the saintlike women who had no way of knowing their babydaddy would morph into a total loser or nutcase. The vast majority of stories are between these two extremes.
This likely includes the personal relationship which has put this burr under your saddle. The only point you got right was the last one—-it’s the kids who suffer. Too bad you seemed wrapped up in the suffering of the innocent men (your husband undoubtedly resides in this category) instead of the messy he-said/she-said nature of a busted relationship. Go get some therapy. It’ll help you with this thing about bashing this ex-wife while proclaiming yourself to be “all about the kids.”
By Jackie
April 22, 2008 5:13 PM | Link to this
@AmVet
Sorry the Repubs ruined your day.
By jm
April 22, 2008 5:13 PM | Link to this
Dusty, not to defend the poster George Washington but Israel, just like any other country will do what it feels is in its best interests. Read up on what happened to the USS Liberty during the six day war if you don’t believe me.
By George Washington
April 22, 2008 5:19 PM | Link to this
Fake Lawyer JMBDusty: Pro-Israel conservatives calling for Pollard’s execution want to silence him about other Israeli spies, while Pro-Israel democrats calling for his pardon want to reward him for his treason and to silence him from naming other Israeli spies. Regardless, they are all TRAITORS and should be delt with accordingly…
By Fair and Balanced
April 22, 2008 5:24 PM | Link to this
Don’t worry about Aquagirl, Sandy. Aquagirl is already in therapy and she’s just trying to drum up some company. Her therapist probably offered a discount like Dish Network does if you sign up more customers.
“So much anger, so much hostility. Let it out, let it all out. There. Doesn’t that feel better,” said the therapist to the patient.
By AmVet
April 22, 2008 5:25 PM | Link to this
Jackie, it’s OK.
Sometimes, I tend to “go off” about this entire debacle/occupation/war.
But, you’re a good egg.
And I salute you…
By deegee
April 22, 2008 5:31 PM | Link to this
It was pretty cheap of JW to lead off his editorial with a controversial reference to a conference that he didn’t even attend. If you combine the number of black and hispanic children in single-parent households it still wouldn’t add up to the total number of estimated white/other children in single-parent households. The question should read, what is it about our society as a whole that makes it easy for men to desert their children. I don’t care if it’s divorced men that don’t support their children, men that never married and don’t support their children, or married men that aren’t involved in their children’s lives. Why is it so easy for men to walk away from a child that needs emotional and financial attention?
By Glenn
April 22, 2008 5:36 PM | Link to this
Charles,
You know what I say to that? I say PHOOEY!
Nah, that’s good strong stuff, Charles. Now I see a lot more clearly where you’re coming from. I mean, I’d realized that you’re a serious anti-integrationist, but I hadn’t known on what grounds. Makes sense now.
I’d listen to you even if you whispered, though. You don’t have to shout showy absolutes, such as claiming that you don’t know of any competent scholar who thinks much of the Black Church. As you know, that just sets me up to start listing some (including friends)—-which is pointless, since you know better already.
Your observation about black entrepreneurs being dissociated from black people in general makes a big impression on me, and I’ll think about pretty hard. (There’s a Ph.D. skin waiting for somebody who can run the econometrics on that hypothesis, BTW.)
When Simone Weil wrote, circa 1943, that “Christianity is preeminently a religion of slaves”, she meant that it makes available even to slaves the true meaning of freedom. Solzhenitsyn discovered this truth the hard way, and managed to share it with his jailers, who were, albeit in a different way, equally enslaved.
That the benefactors of most black colleges and universities are white is interesting, but the prospect that the fiduciaries themselves might also be predominantly white is really provocative. I want those institutions to be better, especially because I’ve got a hunch that the University, utterly unawares, is about to meet the most formidable challenge in its 800-year history, and I want it to triumph—-for everyone’s sake.
In grad school I took a dim view of the pre-MLK, pre-Malcolm pantheon of black leaders. To me they (even Garvey) were men who’d compromised their way down to corny liberalism, which I then despised. (An exception was Douglass, perhaps only because he was radical his whole life and died frustrated and p!ssed off.)
But that was 25 years ago, and I don’t see red anymore. I’m inclined to treat with authentic reverence the beautifully executed plans of Randolf and Dellums, and Marshall and the attorneys, and even of Booker T. I also came to appreciate how flat-out brilliant were the scholars—-DuBois, Hurston, Carver—-each of whom was a solo flier in academia as heroic as Lindberg in aviation. They rocked the Academy. It needed rocking.
And that’s to say nothing of the artists and athletes. Art, too, is a vital institution.
Anyway, I’m very glad to have learned these things from you, and to have come to understand your vantage more clearly. Thanks.
By George Washington
April 22, 2008 5:39 PM | Link to this
I know a middle aged married white woman jesus freak neocon conservative republican who in her youth worked as a prostitute for ten years, had over 20 abortions, was a practicing witch for a time, and thinks she knows it all today. the truth about neocons is truely unbelievable…..
By Jackie
April 22, 2008 5:45 PM | Link to this
@degee,
I believe the “system” has intruded so far into domestic affairs with it’s attempt to make one size fit all mentality, the immersion into areas they don’t belong has engulfed them.
The ones that are suffering is our children because they know the children have no constitutional rights and they do not vote.
On top of that thought, they have practically given THE CHILDREN the right to control their parents lives.
How does one give a child the right to call 911 and have their parent arrested for being a parent?
You will hear many say the liberals are to blame, but, when one looks at those who sponsored and voted for such legislation, all stripes of politicians were in the middle of this mess.
Another example is the No Child Left Behind. Who believes that their child is not intelligent enough to meet the requirements set forth by society without constant testing? We all learn differently and at different paces.
By Sandy_G
April 22, 2008 5:45 PM | Link to this
http://www.proactivechange.com/divorce/statistics/research-rates.htm
This study shows a link between states having higher rates of joint-custody in cases of divorce and declines in the divorce rates in those states.
According to Karen DeCrow, former president of the National Organization for Women:
“If there is a divorce in the family, I urge a presumption of joint custody of the children. Shared parenting is not only fair to men and children, it is the best option for women. After observing women’s rights and responsibilities for more than a quarter of a century of feminist activism, I conclude that shared parenting is great for women, giving time and opportunity for female parents to pursue education, training, jobs, careers, profession and leisure. There is nothing scientific, logical or rational in excluding men or forever holding women and children as if in swaddling clothes in an eternally loving bondage. Most of us have acknowledged that women can do everything that men can do. It is time now for us to acknowledge that men can do everything women can do.”
Luevy says studies from the American Psychological Association show that children tend to fare better emotionally when both parents are involved, minimizing the lasting effects of divorce. And fathers who share custody are also more likely to pay child support.
A U.S. Census Bureau report published in 1989 shows that 90.2 percent of fathers with joint custody pay the support due, while only 79.1 percent of fathers with visitation privileges pay full child support and only 44.5 percent of fathers with no visitation pay.
Judith Seltzer at the University of Wisconsin in Madison says that after studying more than 13,000 divorced families, she found that joint custody keeps fathers more involved.
So, Aquagirl, explain to me how the need for reform in our family law courts is completely unconnected from the subject at hand, which is how to address the issue of fatherless children and the fact that noone seems to get that manhood is not achievable without including the subject of being a father?
Do I hate women? No. I happen to be one. I also have a lot of female friends, and I know for a fact that the “fairer sex” has just as much difficulty dealing with their ex’s on a logical and unemotional basis as men do. Both sides are at fault here, but I don’t see any women “stepping up” to accept ANY of the responsibility for the breakdown of the family in our society. Why is that?
By Glenn
April 22, 2008 5:49 PM | Link to this
Jackie & AmVet,
Would you guys please tell us tomorrow what problems McCain has with SB 22?
By Jackie
April 22, 2008 5:54 PM | Link to this
@Glenn,
Glad to see that you have come to understand some of the back-office effects of what has been done in the affirmative-action arena, all in the name of fairness.
At least you know and you an intimate view of another option to the debate.
Let me add to the discussion by saying, rich kids have built in affirmative action, even to the military academies.
By AmVet
April 22, 2008 5:56 PM | Link to this
I’ll check further, Glenn, but the answer to date is that no one knows!
He said recently he has not had time to study it (???) and I have found NO credible explanation, pro or con, attributable to him…
By Glenn
April 22, 2008 5:59 PM | Link to this
“israel…stole the plans to make the planes capable of carrying nuclear weapons…Kinda undercuts our complaints against North Korea giving nuclear technology and delivery systems to Iran, eh”
No, it doesn’t undercut our argument, but that spy undercut us and ought to be dispatched for treason forthwith. I think it’s ridiculous to jail these people—-especially when we do so because Israel wants us to keep them alive. If they intervene to save this guy, I think we should respond by the issuing the firing squad two rounds each instead of one.
By Jackie
April 22, 2008 6:09 PM | Link to this
@Glenn,
Here is a link to the Military Times concerning SB22.
http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,165937,00.html
By George Washington
April 23, 2008 8:56 AM | Link to this
Glenn, how can America complain about North Korea spreading nuclear technology when America has already spread nuclear technology to Israel? Why is the Israelin reactor at Diamounda OK, but a Syrian or Iranian reactor verboten? Israeli nuclear weapons are completely based on tested American designs - Want proof? Israel has some 300 nuclear warheads, an investment only a fool would make if the design were untested. Since Israel has not conducted even one test of nuclear weapons, one must conclude they are using an already tested design, specifically an American design stolen from America by jewish spies for Israel here in America. As for the F-15’s we have given to Israel, we made it very clear that only non-nuclear capable F-15’s (and F-16’s for that matter) would be transfered. What is the difference between non-nuclear and nuclear capable aircraft. I am glad you asked. It is the electroic circuit called PAL, for Permissive Action Link. Only a fool would launch an aircraft with a fully armed nuclear weapon…a crash could detonate the warhead on you own airbase or city. Since Israel has mounted its warheads on American air to ground missles, they needed the details of our PAL circuitry, or the missles could not be used.
By HIDT
April 23, 2008 9:05 AM | Link to this
Obama will not pick up those constituencies, either. I think they are more likely to swing to McCain than Obama. The Democrats kicked their most electable candidate to the curb early. Good for them.
(I’m commenting on today’s blog for which the posting box isn’t working yet.)
By jm
April 23, 2008 9:43 AM | Link to this
Actually, Israel got their nuclear technology from the French.
By Glenn
April 23, 2008 9:46 AM | Link to this
Mon General,
Israel developed and weaponized its own fission program, and our defense commerce with them—-in my memory, since ‘67—-has been quite out in the open, and even at issue in presidential campaigns past. Israel’s mindset is necessarily existential at all times, and given this they risk even the support of their greatest ally with their ruthless espionage. As you point out, we didn’t give or sell them the technology with which to nuclearize the warplanes; they stole it. (I’d guess that one likely response of the Executive would be to curtail sharply intelligence-sharing with Israel, rather than to lash them abjectly and publicly even unto the erotic satisfaction of the New York Times.)
Iran isn’t Israel; it’s just nearby. One is a thriving democracy; the other, a terroristic theocracy and outlaw state. North Korea isn’t the U.S. Iran didn’t steal from Kim Jong the Ill. The equipping of Iran by North Korea was not a public process, disclosed to a free and empowered people.
The one is an apple, the other too much of an orange.
By Glenn
April 23, 2008 10:52 AM | Link to this
All right Tweakers, Streakers and Pantheistic Proggies! You too, Stumpers, Thumpers and Pietistic Bloggies!
Imagine your ideal presidential candidate. What would be that candidate’s campaign theme song?
By RMJ
April 24, 2008 12:33 PM | Link to this
Mr. Wooten. You are right on the money!!! I usually do not agree with you, but well written. African American young Men and Women must be taught and see examples of what Man & Womanhood is about.
The path that the youth is taking today is not what my Ancestors struggled and lost their lives for. It is the SOLE responsibility of the African American community to guide and prepare our youth in adulthood.
Thanks for ‘Keeping it Real’!!!
By Steven
April 25, 2008 9:14 AM | Link to this
I agree with this comment and it is odd that read this off the Smart Marriages News list since I just came from a similar event in Detroit and had basically the same feeling. I work at The Marriage Resource Center ( www.mimarriage.org) in SE Michigan and believe me we are working hard to address these issues inside and outside the community.
Thanks for the article!
By Steven
April 25, 2008 9:16 AM | Link to this
I agree with this comment and it is odd that read this off the Smart Marriages News list since I just came from a similar event in Detroit and had basically the same feeling. I work at The Marriage Resource Center ( www.mimarriage.org) in SE Michigan and believe me we are working hard to address these issues inside and outside the community.
Thanks for the article!
By Redneck Convert
May 8, 2008 9:13 AM | Link to this
Well, it looks like we might get one of Those People as our president. He’ll probably turn around and pick one of Those Other People for vice president, that Richardson fellow from “New” Mexico. Luckily up here in Forsyth County we haven’t had to deal with Those People much. For years we ran ‘em off. And now the only ones we got live in mansions in them gated neighborhoods. Heck we’ve done got so fancy up here, they’s putting gates on trailer parks if all the trailers is double-wides. Anyways, back to the election, it seems like Wooten has done give up on the godly Republican nominee and its now betting on that Clinton woman. I think he’d better get on the McCain bandwagon, or start planning a four-year vacation to Canada where they don’t have none of Those People.
Hope that other Redneck Convert from Cabbagetown or Dunwoody or somewhere don’t show up. I also hope Jim will call a plumber soon. Seems like everyday when I get ready to write my piece, the computer says Jim’s page don’t exist. Well, it does cause I done read it.
Oh well, have a good day everybody.
By ruiffUnfist
July 11, 2008 10:31 PM | Link to this
Hi All,
I have been reading the forum threads for some time now but never bothered to register myself until today. Hope to bring some good stuff to these forums.
Thanks,
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