Home > Thinking Right > Archives > 2008 > April > 15 > Entry
DEL.ICIO.USTraffic fix? Atlanta needs a plan before any tax levy
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
“My number one issue in electing somebody in metro Atlanta would be traffic,” and specifically, traffic congestion.
The speaker is state Sen. Jeff Mullis of Chickamauga, one of the movers and shakers, with state Rep. Vance Smith Jr. of Pine Mountain, in the failed effort to speed up action on solving the state’s transportation woes. The joint study committee that Mullis and Smith chaired looked specifically at funding, though new funding is an answer that comes after Georgians know what the money is buying.
At the top of the list, for metro Atlanta anyway, should be congestion relief, a priority Mullis acknowledges. “If you’re sitting in traffic in Atlanta, you’ve got to think it’s the top priority.”
The General Assembly session ended without Mullis or a “Get Georgia Moving” coalition of 50 local government associations, contractors, environmental activists and chambers of commerce getting their wish. A proposed constitutional amendment that represented their solution —- a 1 percent regional sales tax on motor fuels dedicated to “transportation purposes” —- fell three votes shy in the state Senate.
The entire episode, start to finish, is an example of what happens when the body politic perceives a leadership void.
Before fixing on a solution that involves asking voters to approve a 1 cent sales tax increase, the state should have a comprehensive statewide transportation plan. Then we could debate whether it achieved the purpose of reducing traffic congestion in metro Atlanta, how it addressed other needs, like, for example, giving motorists a way to get across North Georgia, what it would cost and how the pieces would be financed. And we’d know whether the tax should be a penny or 10 and what role tolls would play in providing gridlock relief to metro Atlanta.
We don’t.
That void created by Gov. Sonny Perdue’s approach to developing a statewide plan prompted groups that included the Georgia Chamber of Commerce, the Association of County Commissioners of Georgia, C.W. Matthews Contracting Co. Inc., the Sierra Club, the Southern Environmental Law Center and dozens of others to draft their own proposal for the regional sales tax. It prompted the House and Senate, too, to launch the effort by Mullis and Smith to —- in the phrase of House Speaker Glenn Richardson —- “do something.”
The risk in convening 50 organizations and interest groups is that they spend imaginary money extracted from somebody else to fund each other’s dreams.
And the “do something” may actually preclude efforts later to do something statewide that involves the same penny of taxing capacity.
And yet that’s what happens in a political void.
Somebody and some solution fills it.
The proposed amendment never got perfected. It represented some principles that stuck in the craw of key legislators, including allowing a neighboring county’s voters to raise your taxes. It created a dedicated tax that the state would collect and hand over to regional authorities to be spent for “transportation purposes.”
The proposed amendment question was so vague and inviting that it could have been written for a traveling medicine show. “Shall the Constitution of Georgia be amended so as to allow that all revenue currently collected from motor fuel taxes be designated to fund transportation and to provide for communities and regions to solve their transportation problems through a referendum?”
The Legislature backed into policy decisions that should be more fully considered on their own merit, not just as agreements necessary to get to the 1 cent sales tax. Dedicating a tax and writing into the constitution that the pass-along funds “shall not be subject to budgetary reduction” is a significant step in delegating power to a regional government that is one step removed from voters.
Metro Atlantans desperately need congestion relief —- and the state desperately needs to come up with a comprehensive plan to deliver it.
The state now has eight months to deliver it —- or risk a void.
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Comments
By Planner
April 15, 2008 8:05 AM | Link to this
Congestion relief has become a conservative code phrase for the regressive, myopic and cost-ineffective approach of continuously adding extra lanes to our freeways and arterials. Such solutions are temporary, as the past 50 years have proven. The Atlanta region needs permanent congestion relief, which means providing mobility options such as commuter rail, MARTA rail extensions, bus rapid transit lines, bicycle lanes and sidewalks.
Perhaps if Mr. Wooten broadened his definition of congestion relief a bit, he would realize there have been numerous plans and initiatives advanced over the years to address our mobility challenges. The Transit Planning Board has put an excellent permanent congestion relief strategy on the table for consideration. But I’m sure that since it doesn’t focus on providing additional single occupant vehicle travel lanes, Mr. Wooten doesn’t consider it a “real” plan and immediately uses his column as a bully pulpit to fight it.
By Shark Sammich
April 15, 2008 8:07 AM | Link to this
Eh, no, it doesn’t need congestion relief. It probably needs to get worse around here before it gets better.
When I start seeing a majority of commuters with passengers actually carpooling, I’ll be sympathetic.
By Shark Sammich
April 15, 2008 8:17 AM | Link to this
Planner @ 8.05, yep. Wooten thinks mass transit is a commie plot.
Problem is, he has a lot of company around here. For crying out loud, it’s 2008 and you STILL can’t take a bus along the length of the area’s major arteries (Buford Highway, Peachtree Industrial Boulevard, GA route 20) on account of stupid county rivalries and even more stupid fears of “those people” ridin’ into our neighborhoods and race-mixin’ with our chilluns!
By Mid-South Philosopher
April 15, 2008 8:18 AM | Link to this
Good morning, Jim.
Good column this morning.
It seems to me that there are just too many spices in this stew. For example, we have the Georgia Chamber of Commerce, the Association of County Commissioners of Georgia, C.W. Matthews Contracting Co. Inc., the Sierra Club, the Southern Environmental Law Center and dozens of others perusing and pontificating in an effort to find a solution to this problem. Egos and testosterone are blended and little is accomplished but to promote frustration.
Surely, there are transportation experts and professions, if not in Georgia, at least somewhere in the United States, that could be hired to come up with a comprehensive state transportation plan (ar a resonable cost) that would address all of our needs with Atlanta’s conundrum, of course, being in the forefront.
Of course, if that happened, such plan would immediately come under the scrutiny of the barons and baronesses of local government, who would pick it to death in an effort to find some political benefit to keep them in office thereby feeding their political addiction.
Until we adopt term limits and break the cycle of political addiction, our elected officials will accomplish little. The products of the last four sessions of the Georgia General Assembly are prima facie evidence of the same. Term limits would force elected officials to be concerned about legacy as opposed to re-election.
By jbmlaw
April 15, 2008 8:22 AM | Link to this
Good morning all. A week or two ago we quoted Carroll’s Red Queen, in the “sentence first, verdict later” stuff and nonsense colloquy. Such is the nature of government, our overlords know we need a one-cent tax, they’re (happy, PoFo?) just not sure yet why. Several of us here on the blog advocate moving as much of state and Federal government function out of the city of Atlanta as possible, based on what we see on those “government only” holidays. Such a move would raise the average quality of life for both Atlanta and wherever the government moves.
Increasingly I see a second, albeit much more expensive, undertaking that would also enhance traffic flow: a second regional airport. A huge portion of travel originating at ATL starts in the northern suburbs. I realize this would greatly diminish the graft for the city officials, but an airport authority other than that running Hartsfield should be in either northern Marietta or in the Lawrenceville-Gainesville area.
Since our government in Gwinnett is now overrun with socialists – noticed just yesterday that government will now manage all garbage collection beginning in late 2009, increasing our property taxes (including the graft commission) instead of compelling private companies to compete for our service – I’d guess Cobb would be the county more receptive to private enterprise for an airport.
By Shark Sammich
April 15, 2008 8:31 AM | Link to this
Bowel-movement law guy wrote:
“Increasingly I see a second, albeit much more expensive, undertaking that would also enhance traffic flow: a second regional airport.”
Well, why don’t you get to work on that right quick and let us know how it works out, ‘K?
You can whine about “socialists” while you work!
By Barbara Crawford
April 15, 2008 8:41 AM | Link to this
The solution to traffic is not taxes, but vision. There is a conceptually-derived way to end congestion and it would cost a fraction of adding another lane to the xway.
However, my plan would fail the first time a Pizza Hut delivery truck sideswiped a Coca Cola truck on Spaghetti Junction and they both careen over the sneeze guard rail. The buffet line would extend for 14 miles in every direction. Now, that I cant fix.
The infrastucture we have in place is more than adequate to keep traffic moving.
PS: did you know that a fender bender in Miami can affect traffic in Nome, Alaska? That it’s possible for terrorists to overload GPS devices and get people to drive through shopping malls? That if you flip a gay tailgater off in Buckhead, that a pedestrian in San Fransisco gets nailed?
the vunderkindershern
By BPJ
April 15, 2008 8:51 AM | Link to this
There are excellent plans at the ARC, so it’s just not true that there is no plan. It’s just not a plan that Jim Wooten likes, because it would involve, in part, the use of rail, which Mr. Wooten regards as creeping socialism and wooly nostalgia. Never mind that many rail advocates are too young to be nostalgic for rail in the US; we are impressed, however, with rail systems in other countries, which are the future.
Those of us who favor a 21st century transportation policy (which respects the private auto, BTW) need to let our legislators know that this is a voting issue for us.
By S. Aleck
April 15, 2008 8:52 AM | Link to this
The best, most permanent solution to Atlanta traffic is for Delta/Northwest to take about 2 million transplants back to where they came from. Preferably those from points north and west.
By Michael Shear
April 15, 2008 8:57 AM | Link to this
Does anyone consider the opportunities to develop NEW methods of connecting communities? We have tremendous potential in the way of telecommunications technologies but have been stymied by our beliefs that the only approaches are ‘work from home’ or ‘hoteling’. I believe we have much greater potential by organizing community centers with the support of the area’s largest employers. Workforce deployment could be one method worth trying given the magnitude of the problems and lack of success with current thinking. If you have an interest, please visit www.pocketsnet.com and drop me a comment.
By TW
April 15, 2008 9:05 AM | Link to this
Relax, Jim. McCain’s talking about a ‘gas tax holiday’, being that the eight year ‘President holiday’ has worked out so well…snore… change his diaper and put him back to bed…
Those who cling to the current GOP eathquake only serve to empower the inevitable liberal tsunami…
By Road Scholar
April 15, 2008 9:07 AM | Link to this
Since you are an elitist, Mr. Wooten, you have all the solutions needed for the state and regional plan. If you had done your research concerning existing transportation plans, you would know that the GDOT has a statewide plan called the Statewide Transportation Improvement Plan (STIP), a 30 year plan required by the Federal government. Projects for all modes are included in that plan. The Construction Work Program, which focuses on the short term (5 years) is extracted from the STIP.
In addition, the urban areas have their long term plans refered to as their Regional Transportation Plan (RTP) and , likewise, a short term plan , their Transportation Improvement Plan (TIP).
All these plans are assembled and scrutinized through public imput. The RTP’s/TIP’s are automatically added to the STIP, through reference. These plans are based on anticipated revenues with a conservative inflation factor.
The bill in question would allow a referendum on whether a region (not just one County) would support a SPLOST tax for transportation improvements in their region. Since most roads do not stop at a County or City line, a regional approach is needed, especially since a statewide tax plan (which was also floated) lacks the insurance of local control .
ALL referendums nationwide of this type which have been voted on and passed by the citizens included a specific laundry list of projects for all modes based on the revenue estimates that the tax would likely produce. This list would have the input of both the local and state governments before it would be put out to vote. Also included in the referendum is a commitment to finish all projects within a specific time period, ususaly 5- 10 years. Thus a commitmnet to specific multimodal projects, their schedules, their costs, their scopes, etc. would be made prior to the vote. This definition of this Plan will take time, as these projects are extracted from existing regional plans, different combinations tested through regional modeling, public input, and oversight by the local governments.
I fail to see your and the Governor’s logic concerning his recent statements that passage of the bill enabling these plans and associated regional tax to move forward toward definition should have been delayed. While the Metropolitan Planning Organizations (MPO’s), Regional Development Commissions (RDC’s- based on Congressional Districts) and GDOT continue to address project prioritization, any list of projects to be voted on would have to pass public scrutiny. Also, the revenue for present projects is $1 million short of what was programmed for this year. There is not enough money to achieve what was already programmed, which was approved by the Governor’s signature on the STIP!
Inflation has taken its toll in the design and construction of all projects. Oil is used for asphalt and all tasks (clearing, grading, paving, etc.); do you think that GDOT is exempt form inflation? Inflation has been at 40% the past few years in regards to construction. Check it out! Due to inflation, the lack of moneys from both the Federal and State gas taxes (which are not indexed to inflation) and project scope, addressing the state and regional transportation needs, including transit and rail,has not occured.
Sometines I think that the inaction of the Governor is tied to the desire to toll all roads, especially the interstates. US DOT position is to promote privitazation and tolling based on congestion pricing. It is not based on government providing their citizens the neccesary infrastructure we need. Right now there are no cost effective privatization efforts underway in Georgia.
By the way since we are talking cost efective, how is the GRIP system cost efective in widening 2 lane rural state route with 10,000 vpd to 4 lanes? Has a study been done on the benefits (new long term jobs, new commercial development, )? The debt service for the bonds sold as apart of the Fast Forward projects is $400 million+/-….1/5th of GDOT’s budget!
By The Anti-Wooten
April 15, 2008 9:14 AM | Link to this
Just another obstuctionist column today Jim, nice job.
We’ve already seen that businesses will a)leave metro Atlanta b)not locate in metro Atlanta due to traffic concerns. If the legislature is not worried about that then pretty obviously they’re not paying attention. The simple refusal to even consider mass transit make Gerogia, once again, a laughingstock to the rest of the nation. But to put that aside for a moment, let’s think of some short term options that could help out.
*Every soccer mom/dad that uses a private vehicle to deliver little Johnny or Janey to the front door of their school should have to purchase a pass monthly or yearly for the privilege. The fee should be in the range of $50 per month with a discount for paying yearly.
*Create a real strategy(not strategery)for increasing public transit ridership with financial inducements.
*Consumption taxes should be levied on vehicles that don’t meet certain MPG standards. Make it expensive to have oversized vehicles on the road.
*Eliminate ALL truck traffic over 8500 GVW during several key periods during the day. No 18 wheelers on ANY metro road or street between 6-9AM and 4-7PM.
By Matt
April 15, 2008 9:17 AM | Link to this
Planner,
I agree with the effort to start expanding regional mass transit. My question is how much should be invest in public transportation. Although adding additional lanes to roads provides temporary relief, it is less exspensive than adding stations to MARTA. In addition, with out hundreds of billions of dollars (& 50 years), how would a mass transit system help congestion we are seeing now? If you’re a planner, what is the maximum distance that people will travel to use mass transit? How do accomidate travelers who live/work outside of this range?
Personally, I think before we invest in “congestion relieving techniques,” (this is where I agree with Wooten), we need to determine exactly what and where the need is. Altough it will take several years to develop this plan, its worth the investment in order to prioritize projects based on need and location, prior to simply throwing money at the problem, look what happened with the Governor’s Fast Forward Program.
By Road Scholar
April 15, 2008 9:17 AM | Link to this
OOPS! that should be $1 Billion short this year.
By Mid-South Philosopher
April 15, 2008 9:20 AM | Link to this
We can try to spin it anyway we want, but the brutal reality is that our elected legislators, our local elected leaders, and the state and bureaucracies, at least since 1974, (with few exceptions) have demonstrated little or no vision in finding a solution to our increasingly oppressive transportation challenges. Bad as it is Atlanta is only a part of the problem…perhaps the most obvious part unless you are sitting on Hwy. 20 between Buford and Cumming at 4:30 in the afternoon!
Our leaders, the political officeholder addicts, have done the Texas Two-Step in Georgia and we get to enjoy the ride…pardon the pun.
By AmVet
April 15, 2008 9:21 AM | Link to this
Though in typical American fashion, where we wait until a social problem is WAY out of control before confronting it, think for a moment if MARTA ran from the Galleria to Spaghetti Junction?
Or better yet, all the way down along the Perimeter to I-20?
Ridership would be off the charts.
And what if (in a perfect world) the “leadership” in the northwestern counties weren’t so moronic and MARTA went up there?
Again, given the nightmare that IS I-75, ridership would be enormous.
And ditto if the people in Roswell and Alpharetta rode the train into the city rather than jam up 400 from 6AM to 8PM.
In most metropolitan areas around the globe this would have been decided/implemented decades ago.
Regardless of petty squabbles by shortsighted men, with extreme parochial interests, who will ALWAYS keep this from happening.
And that is but one thing, granted initially expensive, that would begin to actually make a difference.
By lee baker
April 15, 2008 9:35 AM | Link to this
Jim, you are dead on that Metro Atlanta needs a plan before any tax levy. But that being done is highly unlikely due to the basic principal of rapid/mass transit in that you need a large amount of people going from one stop to another. Name me those stops in metro Atlanta and why hasn’t our existing attempts at rapid transit been able to capitalize on that. For the sake of argument, what if a plan is created, now we have to get a consensus of those that want a say in it to agree. We have more municipalities in the area than ever and one reason is that they cannot agree, you combine that with all of the special interest group such as the advisory board of Get Georgia Moving which lists over 50 organization, there is no way that this will happen in today’s climate. The government’s answer over the years has been to create a new agency. The DOT did not get the job done, let’s create the ARC, that didn’t work so let’s create the GRTA and now we have an alphabet soup of groups and agencies that want to have a say. Compound that inadequacy with the inept attempt at convincing the public what a wonderful job the bus systems in the area are doing, Why would the public think that something will get done? Jacksonville Florida had the right idea years ago to incorporate the metro area into one city/county government that could make a decision for the area.
By zeke
April 15, 2008 9:42 AM | Link to this
If any of you think there are traffic experts available to solve the congestion problems, just a look at spaghetti junction, the mixing bowl and 400 will show you that these so called experts are complete idiots!
Rail is too expensive, not convenient, not efficient, not safe and a non viable solution!
A better solution is for the state dot to look at an area, such as 75n and determine how much they will spend to relieve the congestion, say $750 million, put out contract bids, take the most cost efficient reputable bid and award a contract for a FIRM NO ESCALATION PRICE, PERIOD! The contractor must adhere to the time, cost and safety concerns of the contract through completion, PERIOD! The biggest easy quick solution is to ABANDON HOV LANES, which will increase traffic flow from 20% to 25% immediately, with NO COST!
By Jim's a Cherry Picker
April 15, 2008 9:43 AM | Link to this
Hi Jim,
That’s pretty funny that you should put such a dirty, liberal, word in your headline today: Plan.
It sure smacks of communism, big government and taxes.
Plan. That’s funny.
By Dusty
April 15, 2008 9:44 AM | Link to this
Did anyone ever realize that there is NO way to control traffic congestion in Atlanta? The last report I heard was that 100 people a day were moving to Atlanta. Have you noticed the out-of-state license plates on cars around Atlanta? Congestion = too many people for available roadway.
There is not enough money to stop congestion. Gina Abraham has found that many projected road promises have no funds to start or complete them. Unless there is more money, she should drop the unfunded ones.
Let the public decide. They are stuck in traffic. How much do they want to pay? What alternatives can they use on their own? LET THE PEOPLE DECIDE ON THE CURE FOR CONGESTION. And, as always, tell the DOT to finish projects already started, use the money they have coming and DO NOT ASK FOR MORE.
Let citizens use their own heads to avoid congestion and higher taxes. That is the only way for Georgia or any state to remain solvent. Tell citizens the truth. Plan, conserve or go broke.
By truth hurts
April 15, 2008 9:49 AM | Link to this
Driver’s education is the key to traffic congestion.
Tailgating and speeding is the cause of traffic congestion.
Bumper stickers, aftermarket decals and alloy wheels all contribute to traffic congestion by causing a distraction. Some people tailgate to read the bumper sticker.
Fact.
By Reid in EAV
April 15, 2008 9:51 AM | Link to this
Flew in to make my usual comment, only to see that “planner” beat me to it. Yep, adding highway capacity has proven, again and again, only to encourage additional driving rather than providing any long-term relief. And the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
The funny thing about mass transit is that only a small percentage of the population has to use it for it to effectively cut traffic congestion. Did you see how free-flowing the roads were during the “spring break” week we just had? Such is the effect of taking just 10% of the vehicles off the road.
When you couple transit investment with land-use patterns that actually reduce vehicle-miles-traveled (most car use is for “errands” like grabbing a gallon of milk) you begin to see a huge impact, one that you’ll never see by adding another lane and another freeway until the entire landscape is paved.
I wouldn’t be opposed to more roadway capacity if highways were market-priced (and peak-priced) to reflect their true cost and value to users. But highways are heavily subsidized, socialized goods in this state and country (the gas tax doesn’t come anywhere close to covering the cost) and Wooten’s support for socialism in this fashion always caused me to laugh loudly at his claims to be a free-market “conservative.”
By Jim's a Cherry Picker
April 15, 2008 9:52 AM | Link to this
Zeke,
I couldn’t help but respond to your post…
I take marta to work ever day and haven’t been hurt yet, so it’s plenty safe. I walk to the station from home and work, so it’s very convenient.
Oh, and here’s the best part: I’ve purchased gas twice THIS YEAR.
Marta’s not convnient because those who build roads and sell gas for a living rigged the system to make it not convenient (there’s a little known article in our state constitution to this effect…check it out). And I also seem to remember that the brain trusts running Cobb and Gwinnette took a pass on it back in the 80’s.
Have fun sitting in traffic.
By Telecommuting
April 15, 2008 9:53 AM | Link to this
I agree that we need a comprehensive traffic plan before creating new taxes. I don’t think building more roads is the answer, but then I don’t buy the notion of building out multi-billion dollar public transporation systems either.
How about encouraging companies to aggressively support telecommuting and time shifting. Many many office jobs can be done out of the home, but I’ve never worked at one company who really supported it.
Most of the companies I’ve worked for have the capability, but they don’t make it easy. It’s like YOU have to go out of your way to find out how to get remote access. And I work in technology companies!!!
Maybe the government should offer tax breaks to those companies who can demonstrate telecommuting and time shifting. Perhaps have a company of the week, and maybe even publicly humiliate companies who don’t support telecommuting and time shifting.
Let’s try out some low cost solutions before building more roads or public transportation systems.
By Telecommuting
April 15, 2008 9:57 AM | Link to this
I agree that we need a comprehensive traffic plan before creating new taxes. I don’t think building more roads is the answer, but then I don’t buy the notion of building out multi-billion dollar public transporation systems either.
How about encouraging companies to aggressively support telecommuting and time shifting. Many many office jobs can be done out of the home, but I’ve never worked at one company who really supported it.
Most of the companies I’ve worked for have the capability, but they don’t make it easy. It’s like YOU have to go out of your way to find out how to get remote access. And I work in technology companies!!!
Maybe the government should offer tax breaks to those companies who can demonstrate telecommuting and time shifting. Perhaps have a company of the week, and maybe even publicly humiliate companies who don’t support telecommuting and time shifting.
Let’s try out some low cost solutions before building more roads or public transportation systems.
By Redneck Convert
April 15, 2008 10:01 AM | Link to this
Well, I’m in the Jim Wooten camp on traffic management. You just pave everything and all of a sudden there’s enough lanes for everybody to drive 90 mph in safely. Up here in Forsyth County you used to could go anywhere at any speed you wanted. And the shiners did. But since all them rich folks, including some of Those People hiding behind guard gates, moved up here you can’t get around hardly at all. I say pave over everything east and west of the perimeter for about 20 miles. You wouldn’t lose much but Douglasville and Conyers, and, really who would miss them? Back to my vacation. Have a good day everybody.
By Paco
April 15, 2008 10:06 AM | Link to this
Let’s keep widenen’ dem roads!!! Who needs public transit when we can just put more asphalt down??
By Native
April 15, 2008 10:07 AM | Link to this
It will be perpetual gridlock as long as we have all of the illogical traffic control devices, zero law enforcement and departmental incompetence at all levels.
By Shark Sammich
April 15, 2008 10:09 AM | Link to this
Incentives for telecommuting probably aren’t enough. Perhaps outright penalties for not providing (say) a minimum 20% (1day/week) on average for office staff opportunity to telecommute or run afoul of labor laws?
Ha! I know, I kid, I kid. These spineless weasels in the State Gubmint would never presume to tell their precious political contributors how to do anything in their business.
But it’s nice to dream.
And as for those who decry the construction of multibillion dollar mass transit projects—that’s what this stuff costs, and modern metro areas have them. We can either expand the pretty-good one we’ve got and include something like the Beltline and make damn sure we’ve got rail connections way into the northern counties and elsewhere, along with comprehensive bus lines to serve those who aren’t near rail…
or we can watch our metro area decline over the next few decades.
By Matt
April 15, 2008 10:09 AM | Link to this
Telecommuting, there is a tax incentive here in Georgia for telecommuting. I believe there is a one time $20,000 tax credit towards the cost of implementing a system & a $1,200 tax credit to the company for each employee who telecommutes at least 3 days a week. Only requirement is you must live in an attainment area, which if you live in the 20ish county attainment area around Atlanta, your company could save some serious cash. Just check out the Georgia Department of Revenue for corporate tax breaks & telecommuting.
By Shark Sammich
April 15, 2008 10:24 AM | Link to this
Thanks, Matt @ 10:09. I suspect that the incentives aren’t sufficient to effect a huge change. Probably need more stick, less carrot, but also less onerous demands (3 days/week seems unrealistic for a lot of office staffers.)
BTW, I wonder how often Jim W. telecommutes. I’d think his line of work would be ideal for it.
By Beverly Crawford
April 15, 2008 10:25 AM | Link to this
The solution is not more lanes. The solution is in using the existing lanes properly at peak rush hour times. Only I know how to solve gridlock. I’ve studied the problem for 50 years and the solution is the same then as now. I have the answer. Contact me, the uber-ombudsman, here.
By Get rid of the pork
April 15, 2008 10:25 AM | Link to this
Why should we have to pay more and more taxes to bail out the incompetence of the DOT and Sonny Perdue? All these pennies of sales tax add up. Why are we even entertaining this penny road tax idea when there is still so much pork in the budgets? Why is Boondoggle Shirley pushing for self cleaning toilets for the homeless, streetcars for Peachtree St. and a bike trail on the old rail lines when our infrastructure is crumbling around us? Why was the privatization of the airport and the possible millions of $$$ revenue it could generate not being explored again since Delta and Boondoggle Shirley put the squash on the idea a few years ago? My opinion is to vote NO to the penny road tax.
By AmVet
April 15, 2008 10:31 AM | Link to this
Rail is too expensive, not convenient, not efficient, not safe and a non viable solution!
The one that really strikes me is the not convenient.
I believe this perfectly captures the American mentality.
Waiting up to eight minutes to catch a train??? Driving three miles “out of your way” to get to the station?
MARTA is safe. And in the long term, not that expensive. And in the proper areas, would be very effective.
Yes, let the people decide indeed…
By ron
April 15, 2008 10:31 AM | Link to this
Good morning all,Putting tolls on the highest areas of congestion will cause drivers to not be there as frequently.This also has the added benefit of having the perpetrators pay for the remedy.The toll has to be high enough to encourage car pooling,cause drivers to seek alternate routes,or to simply cause drivers not to go there if they don’t need to be there.
By Senor jbmlaw
April 15, 2008 10:39 AM | Link to this
Buenos Dias, Senor jbmlaw from all your many illegal Mexican friends in La Raza - The Final Solution . The illegal Mexican diaspora salutes our fellow Hispanic brother and propagandist extraordinaire.
As you have so often espoused on this fine propaganda forum, we illegals just so happened to have “crossed into our neighbor’s yard - all 300 million of them. However, as you know, we plan on staying a long while in his back pocket & his backyard. (I laugh every time I say this causing me to spew refried beans through my nose.)
But to the point of this letter my Hispanic brother. La Raza - The Final Solution is planning their semi-daily “Loafers Parade” through sunny San Diego and we wish to have you ride in our premiere low rider floatilla. We march to show solidarity with our many dupes, er, friends, like you, who tirelessly trumpet the illegal cause. One day, the gringos will pay OUR health care and social security needs, too (snort).
We hope you’ll join us in the Parade.
THE ILLEGAL MEXICAN CONSULATE in ARIZONA (Gadsden Purchase my as….)
By JustMe
April 15, 2008 10:42 AM | Link to this
When will the City of Atlanta (and surrounding areas) finally wake up and bite the bullet to build a true subway/train mass transit system? The current MARTA is not useful for 90% of the people. The tracks are limited and the stops are as well.
Compare our MARTA to the systems in DC, NYC, London, or any other major city and you can clearly see why Atlanta is lacking. Our traffic will continue to get worse and worse until this is resolved.
By JustMe
April 15, 2008 10:44 AM | Link to this
When will the City of Atlanta (and surrounding areas) finally wake up and bite the bullet to build a true subway/train mass transit system? The current MARTA is not useful for 90% of the people. The tracks are limited and the stops are as well.
Compare our MARTA to the systems in DC, NYC, London, or any other major city and you can clearly see why Atlanta is lacking. Our traffic will continue to get worse and worse until this is resolved.
By JustMe
April 15, 2008 10:46 AM | Link to this
When will the City of Atlanta (and surrounding areas) finally wake up and bite the bullet to build a true subway/train mass transit system? The current MARTA is not useful for 90% of the people. The tracks are limited and the stops are as well.
Compare our MARTA to the systems in DC, NYC, London, or any other major city and you can clearly see why Atlanta is lacking. Our traffic will continue to get worse and worse until this is resolved.
By Beverly Crawford
April 15, 2008 10:48 AM | Link to this
Marta is only useful for the passengers.
moron
By The Anti-Wooten
April 15, 2008 10:49 AM | Link to this
JustMe,
That will occur shortly after pigs learn to fly and monkeys fly out of Jim et al’s collective butts.
By The Centrist
April 15, 2008 10:50 AM | Link to this
The lack of vision, planning, and the self-serving attitude of the Looney Tune Conservative Georgia legislature on traffic only proves they have no business in charge of one of the best run airport in the country. Mayor Shirley tries to handle things that she has control, while having to fight the Porky Pigs who do not take responsibility for their own actions and continually fail to work in the best interest of the State.
By SCbirdflyte
April 15, 2008 10:53 AM | Link to this
You don’t have to go to DC, NYC or London to see thoughtful planning in action. Just go to Charlotte. It’s not the be-all end-all, but it’s ahead of Atlanta right now.
By Greg
April 15, 2008 10:57 AM | Link to this
What about low cost solutions first……enforcing legible bldg. numbers on all structures and timing all street lights. And only the Governor or his agent can close a major hwy; what use is 20 lanes if a fender-bender stops everything. When was the last time you saw a “Lights On When Raining” sign in Metro Atlanta??
By steve-o
April 15, 2008 10:59 AM | Link to this
For all those who believe that commuter rail is inefficient and that there isn’t much demand for it—I invite you to Downtown at 5:30 and see the vast number of people boarding GRTA commuter buses every day to go their homes in the burbs. It’s astounding! These same people would undoubtedly take rail transit if offered to them—especially those who make less than $50,000 and can’t afford the rising gas prices. And let’s not even get into the time savings and mental sanity that public transport affords.
Unfortunately Metro Atlanta is way behind the curve when it comes to transportation improvements. We were on the right track with Gov. Barnes, but this teetottling yeehaw in the governor’s mansion has been worse for Atlanta than a malaria epidemic. We desparately need alternatives forms of transportation in the metro area. We also need roads that would divert interstate traffic around the city rather than directing them on to the clogged Perimeter. Sadly with inflation and rising gas prices, we are missing the opportunity. These reforms could have been, and should have been, enacted when prices for raw materials and oil were at an all-time low ten years ago. I can only pray that the state, local, and regional governments could get their heads out of their arses and get on the ball.
By Jayson
April 15, 2008 11:02 AM | Link to this
I’ve always seen telecommuting as the most cost-efficient way to resolve traffic congestion Jim. There’s a huge problem that business would have to overcome. It’s called the DEMOCRAT PARTY!
Yes, economic competition in the flat world will be more equal and more intense. We Americans will have to work harder, run faster, and become smarter to make sure we get our share.
Democrats would lose their voting base if they encouraged hard work. It’s so much easier for them to give our tax dollars away. Their goal is to destroy the individual work incentive to bring about their socialist state.
By getalife
April 15, 2008 11:38 AM | Link to this
Jim still thinks his party can govern. Too funny.
“One Hundred Pennsylvania Mayors To Endorse Hillary Today:
A Clinton campaign source confirms to me that roughly 100 mayors from all over Pennsylvania will be endorsing her today at noon — and a bunch of them will hit Obama over the “small town” comments.”
The Clintons can govern.
By Beverly Crawford
April 15, 2008 11:41 AM | Link to this
If even one more person uses the term “hard work”, then I will declare war on this blog.
Hard Work is the most vile, obnoxious term in our lexicon. It is where Hillary went in the wake of Obama’s gaff. it’s where Bush went to excuse is mission accomplished speech.
How did you manage to survive the holocaust, david? well, it took alot of hard work.
How did you manage to build the atomic bomb in only four years, mr. Openheimer? Well, only by lots of hard work.
How would you describe genius, Mr Edison? Well, I’d have to say, 1% inspiration and 99% hard work.
STFU! what hard work? there’s life, that it, there no hard work. Cleaning out a barn is hard work. Digging a ditch is hard work. Shut up!
Shut up! Shut up!
SHUT UP!
By Planner
April 15, 2008 11:43 AM | Link to this
Matt @ 9:17
Although adding additional lanes to roads provides temporary relief, it is less exspensive than adding stations to MARTA.
We’re rapidly approaching the day when it may actually be cheaper to add a mile of rail service than to construct a mile of new roadway. And when you consider life cycle costs and incremental capacity opportunities, it’ll be a heckuva lot cheaper to add a couple of more trains to a rail line 20 years from now than to add yet more roadway lanes (which will fill up again in just a few short years).
In addition, with out hundreds of billions of dollars (& 50 years), how would a mass transit system help congestion we are seeing now?
Commuter rail could be operational within two years if we made the commitment. MARTA rail extensions will take quite a bit longer, but no longer than a major roadway capacity project. The key to alleviating today’s congestion is to focus on coordinating traffic signals, adding turn lanes and making other operational improvements at key bottlenecks, aggressively enforcing traffic laws to reduce crashes, clearing incidents faster, telecommuting and incentiving the use of existing carpool, vanpool and transit services (discount fares, rewards programs, better sidewalks to access those services, etc.). That gives you a little breathing room while the larger projects work their way through the multi-year engineering, right-of-way acquisition and construction process.
If you’re a planner, what is the maximum distance that people will travel to use mass transit? How do accomidate travelers who live/work outside of this range?
There’s no answer to this question. Many people seem content with commuting 60 to 80 miles one-way on a daily basis. Personally, if I were to spend that much of my life commuting, I’d much rather do it on a train, where I can nap, read, do work on my laptop, etc. Long haul transit actually becomes a heckuva lot more competitive the farther out you live, since people can just drive in partway and then transfer to rail at a terminal station.
Altough it will take several years to develop this plan, its worth the investment in order to prioritize projects based on need and location, prior to simply throwing money at the problem, look what happened with the Governor’s Fast Forward Program.
The plans already exist, and have existed in various iterations for years. The problem is that the state, and particularly this Governor, have provided absolutely no leadership in supporting those plans. In fact, one could argue that they have been downright hostile and actively worked against making anything happen.
Don’t let anybody fool you into believing that the Atlanta region doesn’t have a plan to address congestion. The people saying that are the ones who either have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo, don’t support mobility options and/or still believe that mass transit is only for lower income minorities.
By Beverly Crawford
April 15, 2008 11:54 AM | Link to this
ISAIDSHUTUP!
By Glenn
April 15, 2008 12:02 PM | Link to this
I have an idea, Jim. Does it matter if it’s stolen? I got it from a hero of mine, the late Kevin Lynch, the Father of Urban Design. And the AJC is the key!
Use a Sunday Supplement pull-out, together with a standing blog and all the e-mailing moxie at the AJC’s legitimate disposal, to run a grassroots charette-a-palooza inviting the people to contribute their ideas and desires for a conceptual plan for regional transportation and development. (The AJC could co-sponsor with any or all of a number of regional foundations and associations of architects, planners and engineers.) Ask an AJC reportorial team to conduct focused one-on-one interviews using some of the inquiry tools planners use to glean understandings about e.g. were a person goes, how she gets there, where and how she might go if certain limitations didn’t obtain, what are for her the psychological and social costs of both grid and gridlock, etc. (Don’t forget to ask children and transit-dependents, and let the “experts” and “stakeholders” kick in their 2-cents’-worth like everybody else.)
Others, such as planning agencies, could complement these actiions with focus groups or co-located neighborhood charettes or whatever other action seems advisable to run to ground. Then, after this novel exercise in “public comment”, the AJC gets to be the real key in issuing a second Sunday supplement containing a potpouri (text & graphics, with lots of pullout quotes) of the findings and proposals that seem to the editors consonant with one another. An editorial voice can explain which were the People’s top priorities and preferences, and these then can be stated as design parameters that can guide planning engineers as no single expert or expert firm or panel could do. The most intriguing of the submtted ideas might be showcased in the supplement as well.
And voila! You’ll have a draft conceptual plan—-for a 25-year master plann—-that’s responsive to the People’s needs and wishes, and that therefore promises their positive response in turn to the resultant new transportation systems. (“If you build it” without asking, they may not come.) And what better and more transparent way to have secured the taxpayers’ “buy-in” toward that day when it comes time to ask them to foot the bill for implementation?
You put transportation on the table in this space a couple weeks ago, Jim, and PoFo was about the only one to respond. It was sort of forlorn. I think the folks might have just about given up waiting for the State’s leaders to notice that it takes more than 20 minutes to get from the Capitol to Cobb at 5:15 on a weekday afternoon. This approach could shake ‘em up and reestablish good faith between the Folks and their government!
By Joeventures
April 15, 2008 12:06 PM | Link to this
When there’s a plan, Jim says, “There’s too much planning and not enough action!”
When there’s action (or the potential for it), Jim whines, “We need a plan before we take action!”
When there’s a plan, Jim says, “There’s too much planning and not enough action!”
When there’s action (or the potential for it), Jim whines, “We need a plan before we take action!”
Wait… It’s a trap!
By Carbon Footprint
April 15, 2008 12:11 PM | Link to this
The way to solve Atlanta’s traffic congestion is with a lot of hard work.
By Barbara Crawfish
April 15, 2008 12:31 PM | Link to this
Of course you realize, Carbon, this means war.
By RiGo
April 15, 2008 12:31 PM | Link to this
I see some change in public comments, even from few year ago. I see more people knowledgeable about public transportation in other cities and supportive of the use of mass transit. It might take time, but I hope Atlanta would make a decision before it is too late to truly become a great city in the coming decades.
By Glenn
April 15, 2008 12:32 PM | Link to this
Maybe the planners are planning a trap. Maybe they’re the same kind of planners—-or even some of the same individuals—-who planned the trap we have now. The Perimeter is a trap. It describes a trap from which there’s no escape except another concentric perimeter—-another trap. There are lots of transit and transportation traps. Maybe the “experts” aren’t so good at building other than traps.
Whaddya think?
By atlanta altruism
April 15, 2008 12:41 PM | Link to this
True.
Lazy azzes actually work harder than hard working folks.
You see, lazy azzes spend more time and energy figuring how to get out of doing the work than if they actually just did the work.
So in reality, the lazy azzes are actually the hard workers.
In conclusion, hard work is not the answer.
The answer is to be a lazy azz.
By deegee
April 15, 2008 12:46 PM | Link to this
“The General Assembly session ended without Mullis or a “Get Georgia Moving” coalition of 50 local government associations, contractors, environmental activists and chambers of commerce getting their wish. A proposed constitutional amendment that represented their solution —- a 1 percent regional sales tax on motor fuels dedicated to “transportation purposes” —- fell three votes shy in the state Senate.”
This is just hilarious. The best way to ensure that the status quo remains intact is to assemble a committee of 50 subcommittees all with competing special interests to come up with a solution. No surprise that a tax increase was at the top of their wish list. What’s not to like about a penny tax to feed their special interests? Any wonder why the committee chairmen are from Chickamauga and Pine Mountain? Can you say, “developmental highways”? What a joke.
By geedee
April 15, 2008 1:18 PM | Link to this
Walker County (where Chickamauga is, genius) already has a developmental highway, it’s called U.S. Highway 27. I’m not looking it up, but it might run through or purt’near Pine Mountain, too.
By AJC Management
April 15, 2008 1:24 PM | Link to this
I’ve seen some remarkably stupid statements on these AJC blogs but this one is practically monumental:
{{{{By truth hurts April 15, 2008 9:49 AM Tailgating and speeding is the cause of traffic congestion.}}}}
Is it any wonder that the Atlanta Metro area is mired in immobility when dimwits such as this are licensed to drive?
I guess we should define “speeding,” considering that we are a city full of mouth breathers that drag themselves everywhere at 10 mph under the limit, for you to be defined as a law breaker in any jurisdiction in this state, you must first be going at least 14 mph over the posted limit. The judges that will convict you or the police that will waste their time pursuing such trivialities are few and far between.
Why? Because it is considered to be reasonably safe to travel at that speed.
But as is the case with liberalism, we have a vast herd of dunderheads that perceive all kinds of imagined threats to their person, and because of these conjured up boogeymen, they drive everywhere immobilized by fear and, of course, right smack in the middle of the passing lane, where they view themselves as some sort of global policeman or road nanny.
Mind you, these same slugs, paralyzed with fear because they can’t see around the curve, are the very same goofballs that that live with an inordinate fright of “global warming” and Bushie “listening in on their telephone conversation,” but are miraculously nonchalant about the AIDS virus or any other STD, worry nothing about frying their brains with cellphone waves or crashing and burning because they had the Highly Important task of applying eye liner to undertake.
For example: I285 at Roswell Road, ever wonder why traffic is at a standstill for 15 minutes at the merge, but once past the merging traffic, immediately resumes traveling at the speed limit all the way to 75? Gee, I wonder what would happen if drivers in the two left lanes just drove on instead of braking in tandem with the merging traffic that is 5 lanes to the right of where they are?
And what of the dunces that leave a quarter of a mile between themselves and the car in front of them, as though their brakes might suddenly fail or perhaps that car a quarter of a mile up the road may decide to throw it into reverse and come roaring back at them, or maybe the road will cave in, who knows, but if you get 4 of these clowns together, all in the left lane, of course, that adds up to one mile of road that the 500,000 cars behind them cannot travel safely at the legal limit.
And, gosh, maybe traffic wouldn’t back up.
Let me make one of the truest statements that I have ever made, keep in mind that I have a correctness rate of over 99%, if everyone drove like I did, there would not be traffic jams.
There is no doubt about that.
By Tim
April 15, 2008 1:36 PM | Link to this
Anti-Wooten @9:14
If all truck raffic is banned during the Hours you listed, How will my employees keep their jobs with no work coming in? Are their jobs not as inportant to the local economy?
By deegee
April 15, 2008 1:36 PM | Link to this
Thanks, geedee for clearing that up for me. Because we have Hwy 27 running through the state there will be no need for rural legislators to set the agenda with respect to Georgia transportation tax revenue. Amen.
By Glenn
April 15, 2008 1:57 PM | Link to this
Forty years ago maybe you could get eight people (I’m guessing white males) around a table and agree on a massive transportation improvement. Now you can’t do it with 40 people—-which is very close to saying that you can’t do it at all, and not least because flower-arranging and jury-packing the panels is inevitable. “Stakeholders” my @ss. What a ridiculous euphemism for those who can pay the ante, in husbanded votes or in kind or both, to sit at the big table. (See deegee @ 12:04.)
Bypassing that rigamarole is just one of the advantages of going straight to the Folks and letting them name the system they want and continue to participate in who gets hired (and fired) to make it happen. The second big advantage is that the highest and best planning practices dictate, as does engineering, that the best design is user-oriented; that is, design that begins by paying attention to the people who will use the design. Top-down is down the drain.
Atlanta a great world city? It can happen. And the wisdom required to make the thousands of choices required to achieve an exquisite result? It doesn’t reside in systems, nor in the heads of the expert managers of systems. That wisdom resides in the People and in the place itself. It inheres in the things they have seen and the things they know.
My sense is that great cities are built on cosmopolitan influences and therefore on the readiness of the place to take the best from the other cultures, from other places and even other times. When that is done with care, the new city makes its own unique culture.
By Dusty
April 15, 2008 2:28 PM | Link to this
Glenn @1:57
Errrr, Glenn, did you even bother to read my 9:44? That was where I said LET THE PEOPLE DECIDE ON THE CURE FOR CONGESTION.
Now you say: the wisdom relies on the people with some flowery attachments.
Nobody has a copyright here but I think you thought you had a new concept. Doesn’t really matter. I’d be surprised if anybody paid any attention to what is posted on this blog.
By LetThemSit
April 15, 2008 2:31 PM | Link to this
Hello, my name is LetThemSit. I am chief of the LookDownAtThoseInTraffic Tribe. For years now I have patiently waited for the inevitable — traffic at a standstill in Atlanta. I can now offer my helicopter transport services to all of you wishing to look down at those in traffic. Keep an eye out to the sky while you are sitting in traffic. I will begin my sky advertisements soon. Also, for those of less substantial income/wealth, a rival tribe will be offering a slower but cheaper Goodrich blimp service. This rival tribe is known as the YouDidNotKnowGoodrichHadABlimp Tribe. As an added incentive, booze and gambling will be provided on all flights. Put that in your war pipe and smoke it, SonnyCagleGlenn Tribe.
By GayGreyGeek
April 15, 2008 2:36 PM | Link to this
Dusty - AFEES is ready when you are. Oath up, or shut up. One, or the other.
WHY DO YOU HATE AMERICA, DUSTY?
By Yeah, Glenn
April 15, 2008 2:36 PM | Link to this
All you did was add a bunch of details to Dusty’s idea. You thief, you should be ashamed.
I kid.
She should be embarrassed for that last post.
By GayGreyGeek
April 15, 2008 2:42 PM | Link to this
YG @ 2:36 - You’ll find that not much shames nor embarasses the DustBuster - after all, in these environs she’s Duh-Bya’s third-biggest cheearleader behind jbmlaw and Wooten himself.
By jbmlaw
April 15, 2008 2:49 PM | Link to this
Dear Senor @ 10:39, I already have my ticket to San Diego for Cinco, you need not fear.
By Dusty
April 15, 2008 3:00 PM | Link to this
Pofohuntas,aka Leththemsit
How do you get so many IDs when the rest of us have only ONE? (Well, most of us.) That’s not nice, oh lowly chief.
And another thing, I will post whatever I want without the help of you and other old geezers here. I know you are bored today. Who can get excited over taxes (until we have to pay them)?
Soooo, back to your teepee, peewee. You are plenty high but not in a helicopter.
By Road Scholar
April 15, 2008 3:16 PM | Link to this
AJC MGMT:
Statistics show that 1/2 of congestion is due to crashes. What causes crashes… High speed, following too closely and weaving in and out of traffic. Check w/ the Office of Traffic Safety! Oh, facts never got in your way before!
By OK, so ....
April 15, 2008 3:16 PM | Link to this
Where does the Indian theme come from? I’m convinced she’s got an IQ of 50, therefore she is now exempt from my teasing.
By LetThemSit
April 15, 2008 3:22 PM | Link to this
Dear dimwitted and obviously paranoid Dusty,
Who do you think I am that I would have even read anything else you may have posted or that I would have cared to post a comment directed at you? This is only the second post I have made today and both have the same “Name” associated with them. Do you have some “beef” with this “Pofohuntas” person. If so, take it up with him/her.
I simply posted to make “light” of the Atlanta traffic issue. Been there, done that.
You have a nice day.
By Dusty
April 15, 2008 3:27 PM | Link to this
OKDoky@3:16
I guess a post @2:31 is too far back for you to remember. Figures.
By AJC Management
April 15, 2008 3:28 PM | Link to this
{{{{By Road Scholar April 15, 2008 3:16 PM AJC MGMT: Statistics show that 1/2 of congestion is due to crashes.}}}}
Nonsense.
How can you crash when you are at a standstill because the moron in front of you won’t go?
{{{{What causes crashes… High speed, following too closely and weaving in and out of traffic.}}}}
How could you follow to closely or weave in and out of slower traffic if Slower Traffic Keep Right were obeyed, which by the way, is state law?
And I’m not talking about 100 MPH, I clearly said traveling at a safe, legal speed limit.
And that damn sure ain’t riding your brakes up 75 when there are no cars in front of you.
By Dusty
April 15, 2008 3:30 PM | Link to this
WHAT?? There are TWO PoFos?? As liberals like to say, “The sky is falling!”
I’m having a nice day, thank you..
By Road scholar
April 15, 2008 3:51 PM | Link to this
Why do you think