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DEL.ICIO.USThe real need? Healthy competition
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Renee Unterman’s voice is between disgust and anger. People in Gwinnett County are dying trying to get through Spaghetti Junction, she says.
“This has been going on for 10 years,” says the Republican state senator from Buford, “and this is why I am so adamantly opposed” to a “certificate of need” law in Georgia that makes her county the largest in the country without its own open heart surgery center.
“I have seen people die on the highway” trying to make their way through traffic congestion to reach either St. Joseph in Sandy Springs or Piedmont in Atlanta, she says.
Gwinnett Medical Center has applied yet again for the state’s permission to start an open heart surgery program in Lawrenceville. A decision should come within weeks.
The Georgia General Assembly, meanwhile, is deeply mired in debate about how to ease this archaic regulatory system —- prompted most immediately by an effort by Cancer Treatment Centers of America to build a facility near Atlanta’s airport to serve cancer patients who would fly in from around the Southeast.
Resolution appeared close. But the governor, lieutenant governor and House speaker are slipping into their test-of-manhood phase —- the car tax, spending, Sunday beer sales —- so all forecasts are too perishable to publish.
Whatever the immediate future on Gwinnett’s application and on certificate of need law revision, it is a relic that protects monopolies and tempts the creation of “an illegal cartel among the hospitals,” a phrase drawn from an 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals decision in 1991 written by then-Chief Judge Gerald B. Tjoflat. That case involved a Federal Trade Commission objection to an effort by University Health Inc. in Augusta to acquire smaller hospitals.
“The FTC demonstrated that Georgia’s certificate of need law —- which regulates the addition of hospital services based on the need of the public —- is a substantial barrier to entry by new competitors and to expansion by existing ones …” wrote Judge Tjoflat. “Such barriers make concentrated markets more threatening since there is little chance that other firms (new or old) would be able, in the face of anti-competitive practices, to spur competition.” The CON therefore, would “facilitate an illegal cartel among the hospitals.”
But the decision that Republicans should read before they take ownership of the regulatory system they inherited —- something they can do if they’re not careful —- is a dissenting opinion by Presiding Judge Alan Blackburn of the Georgia Court of Appeals in cases arising from efforts in Cobb and Gwinnett to offer open heart surgery services.
The opinion in Hospital Authority of Gwinnett County v. State Health Planning Agency and a like dispute from Cobb was decided on Nov. 13, 1993. The majority upheld state regulators, but to free-market conservatives Blackburn’s dissent is the guide. Wrote Blackburn:
“Centralized governmental regulation of the health care industry is, to a significant degree, antithetical to our entire system of free enterprise. The notion that economic forces of supply and demand will control the quality and costs of goods and services is a concept of economic liberty that is just as basic to our system of government as the personal liberty we enjoy and so closely guard.
“A fundamental concept conflict exists between that notion of economic liberty and the notion … that more governmental regulation can increase quality of health care at lower costs. It may be that governmental regulation is part of the problem and not the cure. …”
The remainder of his opinion details the case for competition and for granting permission to both Cobb and Gwinnett to offer them.
For young conservatives interested in a career in public office, it’s worth reading, as is Judge Tjoflat’s opinion, before buying in to a regulatory system that Ronald Reagan recognized as a failure more than 20 years ago.
It’s a regulatory system that makes lawyers rich and puts the General Assembly in the position of resolving conflicts that belong in the marketplace.
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By jbmlaw
March 18, 2008 8:11 AM | Link to this
Good morning all. Government serves only three useful purposes, to steal wealth, to deprive people of freedom, and to kill people. “Certificate of Need” laws are one of those rare cases where government bureaucrats demonstrate all three capacities simultaneously. Given such a track record, I can understand why leftists want to grant the government control of all health services, as it would accelerate their goals for America.
By Jimmy Mc
March 18, 2008 8:11 AM | Link to this
I am on the board of a small rural hospital. I agree with the idea of the open market. But we have some issues that concern me if the CON is taken away. Groups of doctors open small clinics and other facilities close by. They accept the patients with commercial insurance and refuse service to the poor and indigent. That takes away from us a good revenue stream and leaves us with those that cannot pay. We cannot refuse service to these people. Next thing you know, we are going broke and the small clincs are doing fine. What happens to the community hospital?
By Plae G. Wrist
March 18, 2008 8:18 AM | Link to this
Government governs best which governs least, to coin a phrase.
By Political Foreskin
March 18, 2008 8:21 AM | Link to this
Paul McCartney’s ex, Heather Mills offered to bail out Bear Stearns today. When told Bear Stearns was already bailed out, Miss Mills mumbled something about Luca Bratzi.
Presidential shoe-in Barrack Obama admitted owning several Tupac CDs but distanced himself from the violent tone and tawdry language.
But seriously, Folks, Obama is a black man. In a democratic republic, it shouldn’t matter. If you hadn’t noticed Obama’s blackness, then only to the extent you didn’t notice can we all be proud of our democratic republic; but to the extent Americans dwell on his blackness, we have no democratic republic.
By Dusty Bonner
March 18, 2008 8:25 AM | Link to this
Why the community hospital goes out of business and the poor die, just like Wooten wants. It’s their own fault they get sick anyway, smoking, bad hygiene, dangerous blue collar work, poor diet. Don’t get what you can’t afford to cure.
By Curious Observer
March 18, 2008 8:27 AM | Link to this
Government serves only three useful purposes, to steal wealth, to deprive people of freedom, and to kill people.
Only in this country would there exist troglodytes who view taxes as thievery and government as both a jailer and an executioner. They do so while basking in the freedom and safety that government provides.
By jbmlaw
March 18, 2008 8:33 AM | Link to this
Dear PoFo @ 8:21, great routine, funny, my compliments.
Dear Curious @ 8:27, epithets aside, you leave the argument unaddressed. Do you support CON or oppose it, and why?
By Political Foreskin
March 18, 2008 8:33 AM | Link to this
CNN just reported that Obama apologized today for how uppity and lazy some black slaves were in the 19th century deep south. He praised the white landed gentry who were forced to whip the no account blacks into a more productive posture.
By Redneck Convert
March 18, 2008 8:45 AM | Link to this
Well, we got pretty good insurance through the distributorship, so me and mine are pretty well set. Them that don’t have good insurance are usually Those People, or Those Other People who stand outside the Home Depot waiting for somebody to drive by and drop a plumb job in their laps cleaning out chicken houses. And most of Those People and Those Other People is librul Democrats anyways, so we don’t really need to worry about them, do we? Have a good day everybody.
By OneForTheRoad
March 18, 2008 8:45 AM | Link to this
I hereby issue a challenge to all politicians, doctors, hospital administrators, insurance company executives, taxpayers, and least of all, you people who dare to get sick or old or otherwise incapable of caring for yourself:
Answer me this, If all financial constraints and/or incentives (real and/or perceived) were ignored, neglected, and/or temporarily or permanently forgotten and impacts (real or perceived) associated with said action(s) were also ignored in like manner, then what would your health-care system consist of? How about some soylent green? Isn’t that just the dandiest solution? Everyone gets what they want, or need, or both. Just remember to avoid eating the brain — it might lead to some strange new diseases afflicting those who are left on this wonderful planet called home.
By Political Foreskin
March 18, 2008 8:50 AM | Link to this
Certificate of need? Follow that money, eh? America is/was corrupt. America is/was racist. To put insurance companies between doctor and patient is the most corrupt structure ever built by man.
Let doctors attend to the sick. If the doctor overcharges the patient for using a disposable rectal thermometer, and then that same rectal thermometer is used on another patient and the doctor overcharges that patient too, and so on, and so on, then so what? If that’s the worst thing that can happen, dismantle the insurance companies and let them plead for fed bailouts.
And to solve the problem of disposable rectal thermometers, make them biodegradable after they signal the temperature, you know, like mission impossible. “This rectal thermometer will self destruct in five seconds”.
There. Problems solved.
By Carrie Smith
March 18, 2008 9:02 AM | Link to this
I love your columns, and wanted someone at the AJC to address the falling real estate prices in Atlanta. Since moving into our house 6 years ago, Dekalb county has increased our taxes 5 times! Now that property values are falling, I would like the same enthusiasm from them decreasing my real estate taxes! I am a real estate appraiser, and have seen properties which are valued by the county 3 times what they are now worth! Since the government is so aggressive in increasing our real estate taxes when values are increasing, I would like to see then now be aggressive in decreasing our real estate taxes with real estate prices declining! Carrie Smith
By Tim
March 18, 2008 9:04 AM | Link to this
Good morning all,
I completely support a Free market, and believe that real capitolism is best for our society. That being said, There are some cases where regulatory control is needed. For profit medicine while it is good in theory, It fails to meet the needs of society at large. We all have to accept that sometimes, there are things that are bigger that profit.
By Redneck Convert
March 18, 2008 9:06 AM | Link to this
Well, I see somebody at 8:45 done wrote my piece for me today. But I’ll write one anyway.
I’ll be real happy to see the hospitles go into Free Innerprize. Far as I’m concerned they can open a hospitle on every corner. But I expect the illegals to open some up in the back alleys and try to undercut the legal ones.
I can’t hardly wait to drive down the road and see a billboard that says Heart Bypass—$500. Act Soon, It Won’t Last Long. Then in real fine print underneath will be Stitches optional. Subject to one-time admission fee of $5,000. All taxes are additional. Patient must sign promissory note for follow-up visits.
Anyhow, I’m with Wooten on this one. If private hospitles want to move in and pick off the paying patients and leave the bums to the other hospitles, its fine with me.
Have a good day everybody and I hope you enjoy this other Redneck Convert the rest of the day because I got beer to deliver.
By Dusty
March 18, 2008 9:08 AM | Link to this
ID THIEF at 8:25. Not Dusty.
By Glenn
March 18, 2008 9:15 AM | Link to this
Go Jim WOOTEN!
The only fault that possibly could be found in your column is that it takes Big Mother off the the field in the hospital game. Some elite folks simply couldn’t have that.
Drawing on political theory, I could see three legitimate plays for the State in this contest of hospitals. (A) The State salvages from its present CON bureaucracy a process for deciding where next to build a provisional hospital in a portion of the State where none exists. (B) The State joins the competition with a single, model facility to hold competitors up to the highest and best standard of care. Or (C) the State makes laws and then exercise its police powers to ensure a specified minimum standard of care.
In Role (A), above, the provisional, but code-compliant, hospitals should be based on the design of Army field hospitals that are meant to disappear; and built, like accordians, to expand and contract. Under either Scenario (B) or Scenario (C), private hospitals get built as hospitals may.
Under any or all of these scenarios, the State may subsidize some or all patients, leaving it to patients to exercise the caveat on behalf of the State’s emptor. (Note that the thus empowered patient’s caveat power works least in the provisional State hospital.)
[Hoover 08]
By Peter
March 18, 2008 9:23 AM | Link to this
Yes I have sen REAL health care in Action, for instance if you are a top producer for Georgia’s Blue Cross Blue Shield, you are paid extremely well, and you are give lavish vacations.
You stay at the Ritz Carlton, no matter where your top producers vacation takes you, and the monies spent on those trips are enormous per individual, and their significant other.
In lighter conversation, President Bush announced yesterday, the $600.00 given to individuals, will make up for the fact peoples houses are now less in value.
HA HA HA……. He really is a funny guy, that makes zero sense!
By BadOleBoys
March 18, 2008 9:28 AM | Link to this
Dear taxpayers,
I have recently completed compiling the results of a survey of all state and local politicians and I am pleased with the results. Let me share a few of the results with you. On the question of “Are you satisfied with the Group Health Insurance Plan that we provide you?”, the response was a resounding, not just YES!, but Hallelujah, YES!. On the question of “Is the CON job meeting your health care needs?”, we not only received the same joyous response from all politicians, we received the same response from an extended survey of select doctors, hospital administrators, and insurance company executives. Unfortunately, a less than favorable response was received from our survey recipients when asked “Are you satisfied with the level of pay you are receiving in exchange for putting up with the incessant moans and groans from your constituency?”. Rest assured that we take the unfavorable responses very seriously and we WILL be addressing this issue in upcoming legislation.
Thank You,
Sonny’s Press Agent
By Political Foreskin
March 18, 2008 9:30 AM | Link to this
Real Capitalism: A chemical corporation uses your backyard’s well to dump chlorine into because it’s cheaper to poison and kill you, (and fook you by the way), than it is to safely dispose of the toxic waste.
Remember, my fellow americans, that GOP underwriting of our contract laws still contain the vestiges of slavery contract law, in fact, it’s survived intact. Contract law: The devil’s tatoo.
Vote Obama 08. He wont apologize for the low productivity of 19th century slaves, or all the profits American Industry lost thanx to the lazy and no account behavior or some black slaves back then, massahs.
By Dusty Bonner
March 18, 2008 9:32 AM | Link to this
I am an Arena Football League quarterback. You don’t have a copyright on this wonderful nickname.
By Dennis
March 18, 2008 9:43 AM | Link to this
By Dusty Bonner March 18, 2008 8:25 AM “Why the community hospital goes out of business and the poor die, just like Wooten wants. It’s their own fault they get sick anyway, smoking, bad hygiene, dangerous blue collar work, poor diet. Don’t get what you can’t afford to cure.”
This is the type of situation that the “privatize everything” (including Mr. Wooten) types refuse to address. It gets in the way of their “free enterprise” (i.e. free innerprize).
But, as I’ve said other times, they go to church on Sunday and sing “Jesus loves the little children, Red and yellow, black and white, they are precious in His sight [until it comes to money].”
But, there is another problem with this “unregulated” idea; who will oversee the doctors at these drop in and get your heart serviced clinics? Most likely the doctors who would operate in these clinics are the ones whose “skills” are not acceptable to hospitals.
I wonder if Mr. Wooten would go to one?
You don’t have to be a blind conservative not to see it, just an ignorant one to deny it.
By George Washington
March 18, 2008 9:44 AM | Link to this
Speaking of dying on the highways, illegal hispanic scum bags fleeing other crimes are murdering innocent Americans everyday. Want proof? Read this from the UrinalConstitution: died, along with the driver of a car he hit and a passenger in the car.
Killed in that crash were Rodney James Godfrey, 47, of Braselton, Godrey’s son, 17-year-old Eric Godfrey, and Nicasio Rodrigo Vicente-Hernandez, the 29-year-old Kennesaw man who Marietta police said caused the wreck as he fled an earlier fender-bender.
By Symbolic Capital
March 18, 2008 9:48 AM | Link to this
I second Jimmy Mc’s comments (the second one in today’s comments). I think the Cancer Treatment Center should get its CON, because it’s not the kind of thing small rural hospitals handle anyway. However, it’s not exactly a free and open market when some of the “competitors” i.e. small rural hospitals (often a.k.a. Critical Access Hospitals) or big urban hospitals, for that matter, are obligated to serve customers who can’t pay. Too many of them don’t even want to pay what little they can pay. An auto dealer is not obligated to let somebody drive a car off his lot with a promise to pay if he finds a job next year, but that’s basically what indigent care is. Such hospitals have to constantly fight with Medicare and Medicaid and wheedle, cajole and sometimes beg local and state government for the crumbs from the table. Is it possible to modify CON to accommodate such circumstances, while smoothing things for facilities that really are needed? I don’t think all or nothing works in this situation.
By Disgusted
March 18, 2008 9:49 AM | Link to this
Dusty Bonner got his nickname from the dust he kicked up while speeding by defenders. Our Dusty got her nickname from a guest’s impression of her house.
By OneForTheRoad
March 18, 2008 9:51 AM | Link to this
Dear Dennis,
I apologize in advance for my response to: But, there is another problem with this “unregulated” idea; who will oversee the doctors at these drop in and get your heart serviced clinics? Most likely the doctors who would operate in these clinics are the ones whose “skills” are not acceptable to hospitals.
Who the Heck do you think the insurance companies approve for you to go and see?
By jm
March 18, 2008 9:54 AM | Link to this
I wonder is certificate of greed is a more appropriate name than certificate of need.
By JK
March 18, 2008 9:55 AM | Link to this
George Washington, you make an excellent point about the safety of our roadways. These effers who come here and don’t bother to learn to drive properly and can’t afford to maintain their sh— box vehicles to minimun saftey standards, or comply with the continuous government and corporate monitoring that the rest of us do, need to GO AWAY. We read about one of these EVERY WEEK at least.
Maybe if all our money weren’t in Halliburton’s pockets already, we could afford some actual homeland security and protect our citzens, like that father and boy, from reckless invaders with no regard for the lives and safey of others.
By George Washington
March 18, 2008 9:57 AM | Link to this
TatleTale at 9:08 - Sub Human Dust Mite
By OneForTheRoad
March 18, 2008 9:59 AM | Link to this
Dear Dennis,
I apologize in advance for my response to: But, there is another problem with this “unregulated” idea; who will oversee the doctors at these drop in and get your heart serviced clinics? Most likely the doctors who would operate in these clinics are the ones whose “skills” are not acceptable to hospitals.
Who the Heck do you think the insurance companies approve for you to go and see?
By George Washington
March 18, 2008 10:00 AM | Link to this
There is nothing new about the disaster that occurs when one borrows short term to buy long term debt. The question is not if but rather when the cost of short term money will exceed the income from long term debt. That said, the big fat bonuses that the traders and executives at Bear collected over the last five years were just a variation on THEFT from shareholders. All those bonuses should now be forfeited, and the traders and executives required to repay every cent to first the federal government to cover any potential losses on the bail out, then what is left should be divided amoung the shareholders, excluding all employee and executive shareholders.
By Glenn
March 18, 2008 10:03 AM | Link to this
Ever seen a collectible old Coca-Cola bottle for sale? Remember how they used to make them, sturdy but still beautiful? In policy planning, hospitals are like that. And health care is like the formula for Coke. Here, in this string, each is confused with the other. That’s unfortunate.
By Dennis
March 18, 2008 10:07 AM | Link to this
By OneForTheRoad March 18, 2008 9:51 AM “Dear Dennis,I apologize in advance for my response to: But, there is another problem with this “unregulated” idea; who will oversee the doctors at these drop in and get your heart serviced clinics? Most likely the doctors who would operate in these clinics are the ones whose “skills” are not acceptable to hospitals.
“Who the Heck do you think the insurance companies approve for you to go and see?”
If I had followed Mr. Wootens ideas I would not have the quality of service I have today.
I donno…maybe Mr. Wooten’s health plan and retirement will only allow him to go to the cheapest doctor he can find.
You don’t have to be a blind conservative not to see it, just an ignorant one to deny it.
By OneForTheRoad
March 18, 2008 10:14 AM | Link to this
OOps. My previous comment was posted twice. I think the server gremlins are restless today. I only pressed “Post” once.
By getalife
March 18, 2008 10:26 AM | Link to this
It does not matter what BO spews today, it is over.
Yet, his supporters will swallow his radical bs like the bushies do with w.
If he called for the resignations of w and cheney today, I would vote for him but nobody has the guts.
w and cheney get a free pass and waiting on somebody to stop the destruction and say enough is enough.
Whoever does this will be famous.
By BadOleBoys
March 18, 2008 10:30 AM | Link to this
Healthy competition shall only apply to things that are important to us. Let’s see — Ford or Chrysler or GM. Maybe I’ll go next door and check out the Toyotas and Hondas. By the way, why don’t we have more competition in the Human Waste Recycling industry. After all, it’s about as free enterprise as you can get in Georgia — no oversight, no regulations. Oh wait a minute. That only applies to “SPECIAL” situations. WWW.NGASS.COM Here’s to YOUR health.
By GayGreyGeek
March 18, 2008 10:34 AM | Link to this
getalife - You only wish. In the land of Hill-N-Bill’s slash-and-burn, torched earth campaigning that has been soundly rejected by a majority of Democratic primary voters thus far, you probably believe that the sky is a Bright Purple Madras Plaid and that unicorns poop rainbows.
By Political Foreskin
March 18, 2008 10:40 AM | Link to this
Glenn: Fatty Arbuckle yourself.
Ditto Paul = Pol. Observer
By getalife
March 18, 2008 10:57 AM | Link to this
St. Joseph’s is a great hospital for heart surgery. Been there done that.
Anyhoo, Read BO’s speech at drudge and this guy says it all:
“WHICH LIES DO OBAMA TELL TODAY? That he never heard Rev. Wright and Trinity’s racism and American hatred over 20 years? Or, that it is just words that he and his family listened to but did not believe, even though you continued his membership, financial support, and close relationship with the reverend, the church, and the community?
I do not see how Obama undos 20 years of participation in a racist and America hating church. His best answer is to apologize, resign from the race with commitment to return once he cleans up his act and decides if he can be a non-racist associated candidate and if he can support America.
Posted by Matthew Weaver”
Time to jump aboard the Clinton machine to crush McTorturedkook.
By GayGreyGeek
March 18, 2008 11:13 AM | Link to this
getalife - if you’re quoting a Paleocon wingnut like Druge, you’ve lost already.
By getalife
March 18, 2008 11:15 AM | Link to this
GGG,
Matthew is another blogger. I would never quote drudge but BO’s speech is lame.
Its over.
By Peter
March 18, 2008 11:17 AM | Link to this
Funny about this Republican government we have today…… Giving away money like the Democrats…..ie $600.00 to individuals.
Bailing out the financial markets, but letting other business go down, or cut employees with out giving them help, ie we have Delta cutting 30,000 jobs.
Wow higher Oil, more unemployment, thus less taxes collected, and less opportunity to pay off the WAR debt.
Makes zero sense, I guess these Republican guys in Washington really do NOT have a clue!
Good Job George Bush……you will be leaving office with a bunch of clean up for someone else to do.
By Political Foreskin
March 18, 2008 11:18 AM | Link to this
It’s a great compliment to me that most of you love to write under the cover my pseudonymic Sybil-isms and syllogistic compositional techniques in a bitter attempt to neutralize the influence I wield like so many numbchucks against your poor penmanship, and unpreached moral aggrandizements, and I really hesitate to address troll-baiting, but the last time I didn’t cost me the cyber-love of my life, Stella. I didn’t believe that she could be fooled by an imposter troll, but I was wrong. If you want a blog war, clear it first with Wooten. Let the queer quill cower, and let the bard bare his beard, and let the tapping of unrequited, yet remorsed code in unzipped files define the stakes: you will never blog again as a straight man when analchord gets through with you.
‘muff said.
By getalife
March 18, 2008 11:27 AM | Link to this
Renee’s point is valid. I wondered why the paramedic was panicked when we were stuck in traffic, sirens blaring, not moving.
Now, I know.
It is a great idea for folks in Gwinnett County.
By Glenn
March 18, 2008 11:36 AM | Link to this
Well there ain’t no mistaking your bona fides there, PoFo. That shore is you there. Ain’t nobody but you can hit the four-dollar high notes like that, and even you don’t never sing ‘em ‘less you is about to make a threat. Ain’t nothing’ll make you warble so purdy as a good threat.
By Political Foreskin
March 18, 2008 11:45 AM | Link to this
There is a great info-gap the GOP is using as a safety net for Universal Health Insurance.
It’s the insurance itself. What if we all get free health insurance? What good is it if the insurance companies are allowed their proscriptive prescriptions and yield-derived diagnoses?
Get the insurance companies OUT of the healthcare. Of course they wont go quietly. They’ll assassinate any politician who dares suggest this impending solution. It’s like when someone first suggested they free the slaves. They strung that guy up like they done in the Ox Bow Incident. Pretty sure. Maybe not. Anyway, why is medical school not a requirement for insurance agents? Why is statistics training not a requirement for doctors?
Finally, why isn’t reading and comprehension a requirement for bloggers? I listen to rushannity and then read the same words here all day everyday.
gophacks
By BadOleBoys
March 18, 2008 11:57 AM | Link to this
I used a stage name once on this blog and it was confused with a fellow that was referred to by some as PoFo (amongst other less than pleasant names). Anyway, I sure hope that I am now using stage names that do not in any way shape or form resemble THAT name which is best left as an unmentionable. I still have not forgotten the tongue lashing that I received from the likes of numerous resident bloggers once the rumor spread that I was indeed THAT person. In hindsight, I can only conclude that since this previous stage name contained P’s and O’s, it was confused with THAT person. Anyway, I still cannot help but wonder to this day what the outcome would have been had THAT person’s stage name contained X’s and O’s.
By Political Foreskin
March 18, 2008 12:01 PM | Link to this
Glenn, I know, I’ve done Sen Craig to death. Well, it’s a slow news day. Glad you see the humor. Most dont.
By jbmlaw
March 18, 2008 12:08 PM | Link to this
Dear PoFo @ 11:18, I intended to compliment your 8:50 and 11:45, both of which were well-argued, but your 11:18 now makes me think HIDT fooled me, maybe twice, that it was not you. Unrelated, we pray and hope Mrs. PoFo is doing as well as she can, under the circumstances.
Dear HIDT @ 8:45, you fooled me, well done. PoFo’s note makes me think you are more active today, but you are writing clever arguments if these are yours.
By HIDT
March 18, 2008 12:44 PM | Link to this
I’m not that smart. I’ve been here today, but only in the fluffiest way possible … Redneck Convert, Dusty Bonner, etc.
By HIDT
March 18, 2008 12:45 PM | Link to this
I’m not that smart. I’ve been here today, but only in the fluffiest way possible … Redneck Convert, Dusty Bonner, etc.
OK, wait, 8:45 was me. Thanks.
By HIDT
March 18, 2008 12:47 PM | Link to this
I’m not that smart. I’ve been here today, but only in the fluffiest way possible … Redneck Convert, Dusty Bonner, etc.
OK, wait, 8:45 was me. Thanks.
Aw, heck, the silly 8:45 was me. Gotta fly. Bye.
By OneForTheRoad
March 18, 2008 12:48 PM | Link to this
No. I’m 8:45.
By Unity
March 18, 2008 12:58 PM | Link to this
MSNBC polling results….
Do you think Sen. Barack Obama successfully tackled the issue of race in his speech? * 43168 responses
Yes. He answered the tough questions and wasn’t afraid to be honest. 67%
No. He didn’t ease my concerns about the divisive comments of his former pastor, Rev. Jeremiah Wright. 26%
I don’t know. I need more time to review the points of his speech. 7.3%
Do you think the country is ready for a black president? * 42498 responses
Yes. Obama proved he is ready to lead and bridge the racial divide. 66%
No. The underlying racial issues in this country have yet to be resolved. 20%
I don’t know. I want to see how this speech is received by both black and white voters. 14%
By Peter
March 18, 2008 1:30 PM | Link to this
Well the newest poll is out…. 9 out of 10 Americans are worried about inflation, and Unemployment…….Gee I wonder why ?
Also the feds have stated……”Through a series of recent speeches, Fed officials have made it clear that their primary concern is unemployment.”
Perhaps they should have thought about that before we got into a crises !
I guess they are hand picking the endangered companies to help.
Seems like the FEDS are dropping the ball down here in Atlanta, with Delta laying off 30,000 folks…….. why because of inflation, and the price of oil, which directly affects the price of jet fuel.
Makes you wonder how this will effect OUR local economy, with other companies and the City of Atlanta cutting employees as well.
I guess the Feds are scrambling now with the economy and dollar going down the toilet.
Sad to see the dollar is now worth 63 cents to the Euro…….
Does anyone remember what the dollar to Euro ratio was when Bush got in for the first time, after the election was given to him ?
Thank you George Bush, after 7 plus years your vision, and policy you have lead us to this, the worse economy since World War II, as has been stated in the NEWS.
I guess the Democrat’s win in a landslide this November!
Nothing like doing yourself and the once proud America in, sad that it really was all about OIL money for a few folks.
By jbmlaw
March 18, 2008 1:46 PM | Link to this
Dear Peter @ 1:30, did you notice that everything was running along well until the democrats took the house and senate in 2006, and now everything seems to be in collapse?
By BadOleBoys
March 18, 2008 1:52 PM | Link to this
Our dear taxpaying constituents,
It has been brought to our attention that tax revenues have been steadily declining and are even expected to decline more if we do not take draconian steps to shore up our bank accounts. Therefore, we will be deliberating several new and urgent pieces of legislation including a bill outlawing the non-payment of taxes in the event of job loss, death, unexcused illness, excused illnesses that last more than three business days, foreclosure, trips to foreign lands, or high fuel prices. We had also considered placing everyone on the government payroll but one of the remaining taxpayers reminded us of the consequences of such action. Other bills will be considered as the need arises to further protect our economy.
Thank You,
Your Political Leaders
By JK
March 18, 2008 1:54 PM | Link to this
everything was running along well until the democrats took the house and senate in 2006
Wow, that’s startling news! Can you please define “everything,” and then name something that was actually “running along well” besides the profits of oil companies and “defense” contractors, that is. You know, if you have time that you’re not billing to those poor b******* you call clients. We’d love to know what we’re missing!
By GayGreyGeek
March 18, 2008 2:06 PM | Link to this
jbm - you meant “swimmingly” the way that our house near Tucker sat unsold on the market for many months BEFORE the elections of 2006, much less before the Dems took over in 2007?
Put down the Kool-Aid and back away from the keyboard slowly.
By jbmlaw
March 18, 2008 2:31 PM | Link to this
Dear JK @ 1:54, you ask a fair question. How about 58 consecutive months of job growth? I realize that ended approximately six months after the democrats imposed the new higher minimum wage. The natural effect of imposing a minimum wage will always be (1) nothing if the minimum is below the natural market, and alternatively, (2) higher unemployment if the new minimum is above the natural market. Of course the only people who suffer under (2) are those earning the sub-minimum and above-natural wage, as those poor souls (poor, as in economically deprived) are the only ones who lose their jobs.
A better question – and frankly I am surprised you did not ask it, because you are pretty sharp – is whether my assertion – “that the economy began to fail only after democrats took control of the house and senate” – is not a clear example of the “post hoc ergo propter hoc” logical fallacy. It is – I mostly wrote to highlight Peter’s simple-minded “darn that George Bush” argument, which similarly lacked causative substance. My intention was to set up someone by initiating the “causation” impulse, then to slam them with the obvious cause for the current slow-down – the looming largest tax increase in the history of the world. Even leftists cannot deny the dampening effect.
Dear GGG @ 2:06, you cannot be serious – why would anyone want to buy YOUR house?
By GayGreyGeek
March 18, 2008 2:34 PM | Link to this
jbm - If that’s the best rhetorical job you can do, I truly pity your clients.
By TW
March 18, 2008 2:44 PM | Link to this
Aw, c’mon Peter. For those for whom this country was intended, things ain’t so bad. The past eight years have been very fruitful, as a matter of fact. And while the country slides into a ‘little down time’, the winners of the Bush Administration will merely stock the yacht and tool around the islands until it’s over.
It’s the rest of the suckers, you know - the ones who ‘don’t work hard’, they’ll be the ones hit hardest by the incompetent handling of the land our Forefathers fought and died for.
You know, the way it should be…Republican 101…
By OneForTheRoad
March 18, 2008 2:46 PM | Link to this
Dear passengers,
Thank you for choosing us for your journey. We would like to take this opportunity to explain what most of you have already noticed — the lack of seat belts. We conducted a study and found that when passengers buckled their seat belts, the aircraft would experience severe turbulence. Therefore, we have removed the seat belts in order to prevent any such future occurances.
Thank You and enjoy the ride.
By jbmlaw
March 18, 2008 2:48 PM | Link to this
Dear GGG @ 2:34, Kool aid has that effect on me.
By JK
March 18, 2008 2:50 PM | Link to this
jbm - If that’s the best rhetorical job you can do, I truly pity your clients.
Ditto. Further, your use of unemployment stats as a trump card is misleading, of course, so that you can make your case that someone working a part-time $15K job on top of a $25K job, neither with benefits, just to squeak by, constitutes “job growth” when before, he only had one $60K job with benefits, the lazy bas—-d.
By GayGreyGeek
March 18, 2008 3:03 PM | Link to this
JK - the neopaleocons don’t have to tell the truth, or use demonstrable facts. Remember, before the 2006 elections, Rove claimed that all the polls showing a Democratic takeover of the house were wrong, because he had “the Math” on the subject.
Don’t both any of ‘em, like jbm or the DustBuster or the like, with anything documented and proveable. They’ll just continue holding their hands over their ears and screamng “LALALALALALALALA”.
By ron
March 18, 2008 3:06 PM | Link to this
Jbmlaw,I don’t recall the Dems having done much of anything since they gained control.If inaction is the cause then they’re guilty as charged.This might go back to 92 when the books were cooked to show discrimination against minority borrowing and a subsequent lessening as to what was actually needed to qualify for a loan,but even that is a stretch.Wild misuse of the credit system that is the economy of the U.S. caused the mess we see before us.Everyone involved is guilty of at least greed.Consumers spending beyond their means,banks pushing credit cards to anything that breathed.Housing values above any level of sanity and a strong belief that it could go on forever pushed the bubble outward until there was nothing left to prop it up.Pop went the bubble and here we are.
By jbmlaw
March 18, 2008 3:20 PM | Link to this
Dear JK @ 2:50, you accuse me of making up stuff, then affirm that the five years of job growth only reflects desparate people working second jobs. Where do you guys get that junk?
Dear Ron @ 3:06, you are exactly right. The fact that the dems have done nothing is the huge problem looming over us. The Bush tax cuts are about to expire, and the reversion to the significantly higher 2002 tax levels will destroy the economy. Only democrats would impose the largest tax increase in the history of the world at a time that the economy seems to be trying to slide into recession. Democrat logic.
By jbmlaw
March 18, 2008 3:24 PM | Link to this
Dear Ron @ 3:06, I do not agree that “misuse of the credit system” has occurred at any meaningful level, much less that it has a causative effect for the coming slow-down. Employers do not cut back on the number of employees because Bear Stearns failed. Employers do cut back on the number of employees when they anticipate much larger tax bills.
By deegee
March 18, 2008 3:56 PM | Link to this
Part of the reason the economy is in such bad shape is the poor assumption on the part of the federal government that markets could/would police themselves after the mortgage industry was deregulated. The bubble economy, leveraged by unrealistic real estate prices has burst. Now the federal reserve is bailing out the people that were supposed to be responsible with the risk they assumed. I have no faith that the corporations that run our health care industry will do any better than the corporations that run our banking and lending industry.
By jm
March 18, 2008 4:01 PM | Link to this
if the lower taxes rates had been accompanied by spending reductions, instead massive spending increases, maybe things would be better today. As it is, our federal spending binge (including the shameless stimulus package) has our government fighting with industry for capital. Also, the ever growing debt will require a larger and larger percentage of government spending being dedicated to paying interest on debt.
By Jackie
March 18, 2008 4:12 PM | Link to this
We see the conservatives trying to justify their understanding of the financial cauldron that is consuming our economy.
Many conservatives say the next president will have the highest tax increase in the history of the country. It appears to me the next Dem President has stated the tax rates will revet to those of the 1990’s, eliminating the tax cuts given by Bush to the richest 1% in this country. Trickle-down economics do not work. They further argue that business will reduce the number of employees because they anticipate an increase in taxes, thereby causing an economic slowdown.
Further opinion is offered that says the credit system was not misused, therefore, it has no bearing on the current credit crisis in the consumer driven economy.
It sounds like Micro and Macro economic theories have been found to be invalid.
By Political Foreskin
March 18, 2008 4:26 PM | Link to this
Obama’s speech was too long. I’d have deleted over half of it. He opened well, but his failing was in the overall effect the speech had which can be boiled down to: I’m not one to complain, but here are all the black grievances.
The speech devolved into a litany of latent loathings and litigious liturgical lamentations.
I could rewrite his speech…..
By Jackie
March 18, 2008 4:31 PM | Link to this
The US Dept of Labor indicates that 180,000 new jobs have to be created in order to maintain the number of new persons that need to job just to maintain the a stable employment rate.
I think employment numbers will show that those numbers relate to 2 Million NEW jobs per year. I do not believe Dubya has where the economy he was the titular head of has shown any growth approaching that magical 2 Million mark.
If we understand how the system works, relating to the unemployment rate, we should understand the published rate is ONLY AN ESTIMATE relating to the number of people out of work. The take the number of people coming into the market and divide the number of “jobs” by the entrants into the labor market. Those that are underemployed, or working more than one job are not considered; those that are unemployed for more than 6 months are not considered.
Why do you think Dubya would not extend the time period for unemployment benefits past what is currently in place? It is because the folks unemployed at lazy and complain too much and it will lay bare the lie the is perpetuated by many of the conservatives about the economy being robust and healthy.
By BadOleBoys
March 18, 2008 4:31 PM | Link to this
No Jackie. Jbmlaw has been found to be invalid.
By Glenn
March 18, 2008 4:34 PM | Link to this
Do rewrite it. Do. That works on several levels.
By Jackie
March 18, 2008 4:42 PM | Link to this
@BadOleBoys,
The headline in the AJC shows that Delta is going to offer buyouts to 60,000 employess, with the hope of eliminating 2,000 jobs. Do you believe that Delta is doing this because they anticipate future tax cuts will not be available?
I can not believe someone would employee business strategy that would put their corporations are risk.
Business models are built on Return-On-Investment, a future occurrence of business functions.
By Jackie
March 18, 2008 4:56 PM | Link to this
@Political Foreskin,
Unless you are black, you have never walked in the shoes of Barack of Rev. Wright.
I wonder what you could have said that would have been better than what Barack said?
The second question, would it have been anecdotal or a reflection of YOUR experience?
By Glenn
March 18, 2008 5:01 PM | Link to this
Like I sed in January, I feel sorry for the now retiring teachers of the Old New Left. For decades they took a shotgun approach to training up bright young Neo-Marxists in the fond hope that one of them might one day become President, and now one of them is en route there, but he’s running as a Democrat. That’s just got to mess with their heads big time. Goes around, comes around.
By OneForTheRoad
March 18, 2008 5:14 PM | Link to this
Way back when, I once heard that preacher speak that had his followers drink the Special Kool-Aid. I’m pretty sure that I learned a good lesson from him. For one thing, I’m still alive.
Two people survived the Apocalypse — one Republican and one Democrat. Let’s hope that they did not have much left worth arguing about — unless they’re the same sex, that is.
By Jackie
March 18, 2008 5:21 PM | Link to this
@Glenn,
If you statement is true, does that mean that the children today are being trained as neo-cons by the teachers to be Republicans?
We have seen what the current neocon cabal has done with the power they yield. The landscape is practically barren, don’t you agree?
By Jackie
March 18, 2008 6:00 PM | Link to this
@Glenn,
My previous post stated: “If you statement is true, does that mean that the children today are being trained as neo-cons by the teachers to be Republicans?”
It should have stated: “If your statement is true, does that mean children today are being trained by neo-con teachers teachers to be Republicans?”
By Glenn
March 18, 2008 6:44 PM | Link to this
I doubt either of us could name a professor who’s a Neoconservative, Jackie. How would such a person get tenured?
By Puddin
March 27, 2008 4:29 PM | Link to this
I’m late here but had to weigh in on this topic. I know of two teens that past away last year that were patients of GMC in Lawrenceville. One complained of tingling in the left arm, shortness of breath and chest pains. This patient was sent home after 30 minutes in the emergency room, the parent was told it was an anxiety attack and not to worry. This teen died days later of an aortic aneurism. Another teen died two months later in the ICU ward there the day before he was to be checked out for rehab on a broken clavicle. MY POINT IS How can GMC operate an Open Heart Surgery wing when they cant even keep “healthy” teens alive in their ICU ward or make proper diagnosis in the Emergency room? Most people who need open heart surgery are older and not in the prime of their lives. GMC does not deserve a C.O.N. ever!
By Puddin
March 27, 2008 4:51 PM | Link to this
I’m late here but had to weigh in on this topic. I know of two teens that past away last year that were patients of GMC in Lawrenceville. One complained of tingling in the left arm, shortness of breath and chest pains. This patient was sent home after 30 minutes in the emergency room, the parent was told it was an anxiety attack and not to worry. This teen died days later of an aortic aneurism. Another teen died two months later in the ICU ward there the day before he was to be checked out for rehab on a broken clavicle. MY POINT IS How can GMC operate an Open Heart Surgery wing when they cant even keep “healthy” teens alive in their ICU ward or make proper diagnosis in the Emergency room? Most people who need open heart surgery are older and not in the prime of their lives. GMC does not deserve a C.O.N. ever!