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DEL.ICIO.USObesity’s a burden our schools should not shoulder
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Fat kids. Your problem or the school’s?
No question. Your kid, your problem. You feed them. You fatten them. Parents are the problem.
The Georgia Senate on Friday passed legislation to require elementary schools to weigh children twice a year and to track body mass index, the measure of whether somebody’s fat. Aggregate information, not results for individual students, would be posted on a state education Web site. The school’s not required to notify parents of their child’s weight, though it would be made available to them upon request.
These notions are troubling —- that schools should be the place where government intervenes in childhood obesity and, furthermore, that they should be identified publicly with a condition almost entirely beyond their control. Sure the kids eat a meal at school. And, yes, they may have access to soft drink machines and possibly snacks as well. But schools are not primarily responsible for children’s caloric intake. It’s not their job description.
This particular bill, SB 506 by state Sen. Joe Carter (R-Tifton), is modest enough in its reach. Local school systems test, and the state appoints a coordinator to gather and post school data and to “coordinate physical education and fitness activities and requirements.” Systems that don’t submit data or don’t meet a state minimum in physical education instruction will be declared by the state school board to be an “unhealthy school zone.” The bill passed the Senate 37-13 and goes now to the House.
We have gone in one lifetime from a nation fighting hunger to one fighting gluttony. Obesity is no doubt a real concern. The problem here is that yet another responsibility of the family is being transferred to public education. No daddy in a child’s life? Task the schools to provide role models and to teach values. Can’t handle anger? Task the schools to teach behavior management. No self-esteem? Schools. Don’t know which fork to use? Schools. No discipline in what goes on the fork? Schools. Reading, writing and math? Sure, if you can squeeze it in.
Schools have become the absent fathers and the never-formed families.
If one assumes that children reach school age completely uncivilized, never exposed to discipline or boundaries and unable to resist all temptation —- food, sex, aggression, media distractions —- then the logical place to begin the civilizing process is where the children first intersect government. For decades now, the burden of socializing children and teaching them values has fallen to schools. It’s little wonder that they struggle so mightily with their basic mission.
The sad reality for those who believe in limited government is that this attempt to introduce schools to their food-police role is just the beginning.
Once the weight-checkers establish that a kid’s fat, or that lots of them are, there has to be a second step, and a third, all of which necessitate a more activist role for the calorie police.
First will come the movement to rid the schools of soft drink machines —- something already under way across the nation —- and to cut empty calories from school menus. Since the kids will still be fat, more aggressive school-based efforts will be required, with more nutritionists, diet managers, medical personnel and physical education counselors needed to police the gap between a child’s fork and his stomach. And of course parents or parent will need educating, too.
When these efforts fail because the problem is at home, attention will turn to manufacturers who make the products that, when consumed to excess, cause obesity —- something we’ve already seen, too.
Senate Bill 506 is well-intentioned. But can’t we cut the schools a break? I want my schools to educate children so that they can get a job and support themselves and their families. I don’t want them weighing children —- or being branded as an “unhealthy zone” if the children’s mommas and daddies feed them a dinner of potatoes, macaroni and cheese and Girl Scout cookies.
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Comments
By JK
March 4, 2008 8:06 AM | Link to this
Darn those “Nanny State” Republicans! Do they really think humiliating children is the answer?
Those who’ve complained bitterly over the years about their tax money going to schools, and seeking to reduce that amount by any means, are shocked that so many of Georgia’s kids are testing under par, lacking the skills to compete in a technologically-advancing workplace, or failing to graduate at all. The battle cry became “Stick to reading, writing, and math!”
Never mind that physical education and sports programs teach kids important life, health, and teamwork skills that come in handy later. Kids who participate in organized sports have less time for weed, malls, and trouble; studies also show that entry into sexual activity (for girls anyway) is delayed when they’re active in sports.
But the “not with my money” crowd shrieks that it’s a waste. Except that obesity is no joke, and now our legislature (on our time clock and tax dollars) is busy trying to figure out a remedy for an epidemic that costs our society billions. Indeed.
Shall we feel sorry that corporate entities with cushy state contracts to feed our children fat, sugar, and sodium might be asked to deliver a more responsible product? Or that multi-national megalo-soda-conglomerates stop exploiting the kids with their over-priced, addictive sodas, at least while they’re at school?
Common sense: invest in THAT, Georgia.
By jbmlaw
March 4, 2008 8:07 AM | Link to this
Good morning all. So the Georgia legislature has determined that it takes a village. Ok, MidSouth, I surrender, you were right; vote against all of ‘em. Idiots to the left of me, morons to the right of me. On the substantial subject otherwise, I yield to Glenn and @@, and grant them jointly my proxy. Good and thought-provoking, if dispiriting essay, Mr. Wooten. Makes me want to lash out, and I think we need to measure the body mass index of our legislators’ heads; if that requires removal first, so be it.
Special note to Glenn, your closing “prayer” yesterday is the funniest writing I’ve read in weeks. I wish I could write that way.
Special note to Southern Democrat, senility is setting in: I agree with 95% of Prof. Tribe’s rationale on the DC 2nd Amendment case, and he persuades me to modify my thinking. A sure sign I need to embrace the lifestyle of Jean Sibelius’s last 30 years.
By Filster
March 4, 2008 8:14 AM | Link to this
Joe Carter is an uninformed idiot. The BMI, which gets its figures frmo about the 1950’s, simply measures a person’s height and weight. It makes no distinction between someone whose bodyshape looks like an upside down pyramid and someone whose body shape looks like an apple. Someone with a 48” chest and a 32” waist who weighs 240 pounds will get the same BMI as someone with a 32” chest and a 48” waist. One of the stupiest, most uninformed decisions by lawmakers I’ve ever seen, but then again, this IS Georgia!
By AmVet
March 4, 2008 8:24 AM | Link to this
Kudos Mr. Wooten! Both for today’s AND yesterday’s subject matter! This is the meat, not soy substitute, I was asking for last week!
And as I was very busy yesterday keeping the great American economic engine humming (and helping pay for the occupation) I did not have a chance to throw in my two cents worth.
Should McCain pick either of those two horrific choices you proffered, he will unquestionably lose an enormous number of the independent, moderate and reasoned centrist voters he now has. They might just become Obamatized.
The GOP “faithful” will probably bite their festering tongues and vote for the amnesty giver anyway, as they could never allow a liberal schwartze or female type person in the West Wing. All he has to do is keep giving lip service to the revered Ronnie and those “conservative” policies to reign in the ever-gullible “base”.
Bu the political center will be watching his VP pick EXTREMELY closely.
I tend to believe he is smart enough to know that a non-conservative “conservative” VP choice spells disaster for him.
By jbmlaw
March 4, 2008 8:25 AM | Link to this
As the Georgia Legislature is obviously in need of assistance in getting a grip on the “child obesity” problem, I have a simple resolution. Just pass another criminal statute, mandating execution of any parent found in possession of a television. That may help with the re-election problem, too. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/03/AR2008030302651.html
By Redneck Convert
March 4, 2008 8:27 AM | Link to this
Well, the schools got not bizness worrying about weather a kid is fat or not. I don’t want them doing nothing about little Sonny Zell George. He’s almost two years old and weighs 62 pounds. He’s just a butterball and I expect he’ll be about 150 by the time he makes 1st grade. He just loves fried pork skins and mashed potatos and gravy and other stuff kids eat. He even gives the missus a run for her money at Ryans.
But it ain’t the schools bizness how much he weighs. If he’s big they can just bring in a bigger chair from the high school. I want him to learn how to cipher and read a little bit. Far as I’m concerned he can quit after he gets to them danged multiplying tables that stumped me and made me drop out after the 5th grade. This is GA, not some Northren state where they deal with sissy stuff like good test grades and health.
Just look at old Sonny. He sets a fine example for all the kids. He weighs about 300 and don’t go in for all this health stuff. He may not be the brightest star we have, but the man can pray till the rain comes in buckets. He learned what a man needs to learn—the Bible.
Anyhow, this why the schools don’t do so good. They worry about stuff that parents need to deal with. I say leave a kids health to the parents and a doctor and stop putting their nose into things that’s none of their bizness.
So I’m with Wooten. If a kid gets so big he can’t get a breath of air and falls down and dies, well, that’s what the Lord intended. Just don’t try to push a bunch of pointy-head stuff like health on us down here in the South.
That’s my opinion and its very true.
By Just Nasty and Mean
March 4, 2008 8:38 AM | Link to this
If I am fat, or skinny, or lumpy or smooth is none of the state’s business.
The classic “Mind your own (damn) business” comes into play.
…and to think Republicans think this is a good idea shows how we ended up with McCain as our standards torchbearer.
Don’t our worthy lawmakers have enough to worry about regarding excessive taxes, terrorism, crumbling infrastructure, and out-of-whack budgets to concern themselves with items of a personal nature?
Keep your eye on the ball and forget all this peripheral nonsense.
By Corn Syrup Derivative Caffeinated Carbonated Drink Maker and Seller
March 4, 2008 8:41 AM | Link to this
What did I do? After all, this is America. Right? Everyone has a right to make a Buck, or a Million Bucks, or Millions of Bucks any way they can. Right? Just ask my buddies at the Capitol. They will tell you. Right? We do this sort of stuff all the time. Right? Just ask any of them. We look out for each other. Right? Right? Where did everyone go? Glenn? Casey? Chip? Where did you all go? I just want to look out for my family. You know. My family values. They are just like you family values. Right? Right?
By AmVet
March 4, 2008 8:45 AM | Link to this
As for todays topic, again Mr. Wooten picks one that is intriguing but sufficiently stupid in it’s premise to allow for much discussion.
We endure an administration that has watered down habeus corpus to the point that for any American even remotely suspected of being involved in the T word, it is completely unrecognizable.
Yet the “common sense” “faithful” bemoan the loss of individual liberties for the precious little ones to be as fat, dumb and self-obsessed (like mommy and daddy) as they possibly can.
That you step up to the plate on larda$$ children is admirable, Jim. That you missed that curve ball by a foot and a half, ala the recently departed Andrew Jones, is not.
You know what an infinitely better alternative is, don’t you Mr. Wooten? But dare not say it as the very thought might bring on undue perspiration. And horrible memories of JFK.
At the risk of promoting ultra-liberal school nannyism and the most uncomfortable offending of common sense “conservatism” I propose a radical concept - physical education!
Every semester. Every year.
RUN Johnny! RUN Susie!
By William
March 4, 2008 8:51 AM | Link to this
Redneck convert; You sure do sound like a transplant. Are you from Ohio? I heard they are in dire need of jobs. Can they pick tomatoes and help keep the workforce strong? But on the subject fat johnny I was in the Piggly Wiggly on the first of the month picking up some stuff and I saw those food stamps at work. Two or three carts filled to brim at the check out lines. I saw meats that made me drool but it wouldnt be prudent to stare so I paid up and left.
By William
March 4, 2008 8:53 AM | Link to this
Redneck convert; You sure do sound like a transplant. Are you from Ohio? I heard they are in dire need of jobs. Can they pick tomatoes and help keep the workforce strong? But on the subject fat johnny I was in the Piggly Wiggly on the first of the month picking up some stuff—I saw those food stamps at work! Two or three carts filled to the brim at the check out lines. I saw meats that made me drool but it wouldn’t be prudent to stare so I paid up and left.
By Curious Observer
March 4, 2008 8:56 AM | Link to this
Heaven forbid that we get schools involved in concepts like physical fitness and diet! We need to retain our God-given right to eat ourselves into an early grave, while sticking taxpayers or our fellow insureds with the medical bills while we are expiring at a leisurely pace. Worse, our interference in the process would cost our drug companies a small fortune in profits, while running the honest manufacturers of junk food out of business. Why do these liberals hate the notion of profit?
By Ga Schools Suck
March 4, 2008 9:05 AM | Link to this
These stupid guv imposed requirements are one reason why ga school suck…poor teachers are given a ready made excuse for failure, all the mindless paper work required by the education bureaucracy…This data gathering exercise will be used by a relative of some big shot politician for the phd disertation, or more likely the watered down EDD, Doctorate of Education, what a joke. One thing I have noticed over the decades, when the politicians seek to fix a problem, the bureaucracy designs a documentation heavy program, mandated documentation. Health care today is 80 percent documentation, and 20 percent patient care. Education is equally burdened with paper documentation, with little actual teaching, and even less learning…Just call it government provided babysitting from ages 5 to 18 for 9 months of the year. JUST say NO to the politicians….
By @@
March 4, 2008 9:07 AM | Link to this
Wow! I can just see it now when the lawsuits begin to pour in — “My child has developed an eating disorder because the schools deemed her/him FAT.”
When my daughter was in school she complained about the 20 minutes allowed to go through the line, choose from an assortment of junk food, then sit down to inhale. She described it as stressful.
My solution was to pack her a healthy lunch that she could enjoy without the stress of being herded through a slaughter line. It was a collaborative effort. She would convey what it was she wanted for her lunches, and I would purchase said items at the grocery store. We worked together in what would serve her best interest.
We have kids at my school whose disability/disorder leave them saddled with a food obsession. We watch what the parents send in their lunches. If we think that the food items are unhealthy, and are contributing to obesity, we discuss it with the parent. They either listen to us or they don’t. We’ve done our part. The rest is up to the parents.
Simple.
By Ga Strip Club Association
March 4, 2008 9:10 AM | Link to this
We support this initiative: If the obesity epidemic continues, we will be forced to import pole dancers and stippers from Mexico, as our patrons really object to paying good money to watch fat girls dance naked….Vote for more jobs for Americans, Vote to make the fat kids run, run, run until they drop and barf, then git up, and run, run, run..for the sake of beauty in pole dancing….
By MADMOMMY
March 4, 2008 9:13 AM | Link to this
Ok, so this is a vaild topic today, but really? Check the weight of kids at school, like the kids and parents don’t already know how there kids look and how much they weigh? This will do nothing to slow the flow of fatness that is growing all around us at an alarming rate. Why not put some time and money into physical fitness for our children, teach them health classes at an early age and then enforce the learning in what they see in the lunch line. As teachers and schools, they can only give them a base, why not send home activity packets and healthy eating guides for parents to start using in the kitchen. Oh wait, most parents don’t have time to step into the kitchen, let alone cook a “real” meal. In the time they take to “order” a meal they could have cooked and cleaned up the mess. People need to grow up and stop looking to everyone else to do their job.
By WFC
March 4, 2008 9:29 AM | Link to this
A SIMPLE RULE: “Schools are NOT the answer to all of society’s ills.” Every time you add a new task to the school, something else is quietly deleted. I watched it happen for 31 years.
By hogleg
March 4, 2008 9:36 AM | Link to this
hillary and obama want to get children under the control of governmnet schools at age 3 so no parenting will be allowed .the children can be indoctrinated to a vegan diet and the dangers of global warming .al gore can visit each classroom and scare the children into believing the end is near.
By Dusty
March 4, 2008 9:39 AM | Link to this
Welllll..this is a problem in which I find no excitement. Fat parents usually have fat children. Our schools are supposed to “cure” that?
Of course, the answer is what Jim Wooten is saying. Let parents take care of their children and let schools educate all children, even fat ones.
I would suggest that schools mail one letter to parents telling them that their child appears overweight. That the school is concerned but cannot be responsible for any related health problems of their child.
Then leave it to the parents. Otherwise we have the start of socialized medicine in the school system. That boils down to loss of freedom. As most of us know, the more personal decisions the government makes for you the less freedom you have.
Obesity is a health problem not an educational one (although it may reflect poor education). Wooten is correct. School systems should not be a governmental “nanny” to replace parents.
By Ga Strip Club Association
March 4, 2008 9:42 AM | Link to this
MADMOMMY: YOU HAVE HAD ALL THE CHILDS LIFE TO CONTROL THEIR DIET AND MAKE THE EXERCISE: WOULD A PIECE OF PAPER FROM SCHOOL OFFERING DIET AND EXERCISE SUGGESTIONS BE WORTH THE PAPER IT IS PRINTED ON. IF YOU WANT LITTLE SUSIE TO BE SELF SUPPORTING AT AGE 18, THEN GIT HER BUTT INTO SHAPE NOW, OTHERWISE WE DO NOT WANT HER ON OUR STAGE…
By Mid-South Philosopher
March 4, 2008 9:47 AM | Link to this
Good morning, Jim, jbmlaw, Dusty, MADMOMMY and others.
Has anyone taken a look at some of those “guts” in the General Assembly?
Why does the phrase, “Physician, heal thyself” continue to run through my mind.
Physical education, along with music, art, (science and social studies in the early grades) and a number of other worthwhile courses have been “gutted” (pardon the pun) in many Georgia public schools so that teachers may devote the bulk of their resources at attempting to achieve the illogical expectations of No Child Left Behind.
With respect to Senator Joe Carter’s SB 506, well-meaning as it is, it is just another effort by a politician to appear to be doing something without doing much. Furthermore, it is a continuation of the traditional model of “dumping” the duty on teachers, many of which are already changing diapers, inserting catheters, dispensing prescription medicines, wiping noses, all the while trying to insure that their students meet the Georgia Performance Standards and pass the CRCT that would stump Teddy Kennedy and Georgie Bush.
Oh, well, just another beautiful day in the neighborhood.
Jbmlaw, you have got it…NEVER re-elect anyone!
By GayGreyGeek
March 4, 2008 9:50 AM | Link to this
hogleg - You seem to have missed the fact that this is a REPUBLICAN effort at Big Gubmint taking over child-rearing.
By Dusty
March 4, 2008 9:54 AM | Link to this
Ga STRIP Club Association @9:42
You have given the only good excuse for letting our children stay FAT. Keeps ‘em off the stage at strip clubs.
Even Jim Wooten forgot that one.
By Think about it
March 4, 2008 9:57 AM | Link to this
Here’s a idea. Instead of getting online and b*** and whining to each other about this and that, how about doing something constructive like writing and calling these morons writing this trash they call legislation and tell them either get their act together or dust off that resume. While there will always be morons writing garbage like this if the people would stand up together and for a change work together it could be slowed down. Never happen though as long as the words ” what good would it do to vote” remains the typical mindset.
By Ga Strip Club Association
March 4, 2008 10:02 AM | Link to this
yes Dusty, but we always fill our stages with beautiful, shapely, thin, hot young women, and we always will. They just will not be american women….
By Mike
March 4, 2008 10:05 AM | Link to this
Am I alone in recognizing that pediatricians take children’s weight every visit, and that there are things called bathroom scales that can be used at will?
Didn’t think so…
Enough said.
By Ron
March 4, 2008 10:09 AM | Link to this
So what does the collective they do with the body mass index numbers?They post it on an educational site,then what?Cut funding at schools with a bmi over 29?Put the kids on forced marches,carrying huge packs on their backs?There has to be a reason behind all this,doesn’t there?What about us retired folk,whose body mass index has crept up through the years?OH,yes,they’re raising the prices on everthing so we won’t be able to afford to eat.That will knock the old bmi down.
By Louis Goglia
March 4, 2008 10:28 AM | Link to this
Its unfortunate that the school system has become the dumping ground for single parents, and dysfunctional two parent families. The media controls the fate of individuals with its constant bombardment of food advertisements 7/24. Advertising is a way of life and tremendously influences the behavior of all living souls! Dealing with weight and the potential consequences should be taught in elementary school. Teaching about weight and having to pay a premium in the form of highrer rates would almost certainly affect the behavior of everyone. I just finished a book that deals with this subject that is quite different from the rest of other books on the market.
Louis Goglia,DBA,MCH
By Blogfather
March 4, 2008 10:31 AM | Link to this
Jim Wooten, I know what you mean. Today’s students dont have the conservative oversight which fed Baby Boomers good family-values food items like Paint Chips fortified with lead, and small pieces off of unregulated toys, fortified with lead. Not to mention the hard-work-ethic derived conservative between-meal snacks like washing kids mouth out with soap, fortified with lead.
The reason Baby Boomer children became fat adults was because everything became edible. Remember edible underwear, (licorice or cherry?) Dont laugh, that’s how I always got my daily recommended allowance of vitamin P.
Now, There’s edible greeting cards. (One Hallmark Moment on the lips is forever on the hips).
We need to bring back the conservative, evangelical right, which once brought us morality at lunchtime with a school cafeteria menu which included Good Shepherd’s Pie.
By jack Atlanta
March 4, 2008 10:32 AM | Link to this
And we wonder why former republicans are not donating $$$$$ during this election cycle!! Does the good Senator from Tifton have some sort of business that sells exercise equipment that he is going to be selling to school districts for a sweet profit? Will this bureaucracy be entitled the ‘Carter Plan’?
If you cannot get parents to care for the basic needs of their kids — including causing them to do homework and not watch MTV, then Clyde, you are not going to get them to preclude their kids eating TWINKIES!!
Come on Senator. DON’T SPEND THE TAX PAYER’S MONEY FOOLISHLY!
By Old Physics Teacher
March 4, 2008 10:41 AM | Link to this
Here’s the real question:
Will there be a single principal who will stand up and say, “Go ahead, put me in jail. I ain’t doing it! This is none of the legislature’s business, and I refuse to be held accountable for things not under my control. The legislators are idiots.” Or will these guys knuckle under again like they did with the rest of the garbage that has come out of the legislature.
By Blogfather
March 4, 2008 10:56 AM | Link to this
Wrong, oldphysicsteach. The children are prisoners in school for six to eight hours and you have to feed them. WE need to have oversight about the menu. And we need to make sure the gay waiters serving the food are bonded. We liberals are all about the food. Even our retirements plans include making our own beef jerky. Get real, oldphysicsteacher, or maybe you’re in the wrong business, maybe you should deliver pizzas.
By Dusty
March 4, 2008 11:02 AM | Link to this
Well, ‘tis said “If you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em!”
NEW Slogans:
Flab is Fabulous!
Carry your own inner tube!
Losers are SKINNY! (see Obama.)
Chubbies are cute!
The bountiful are big!
The bigger the better.
A mountain is magnificent! (U R 2!)
I’d rather have my FAT than your FACE!
Skeletons aint pretty!
Every ounce has bounce!
This is OBESITY OBSERVANCE Month. Eat up!
I never promised you a “bean pole”!
Calorie counters have no charm.
By Ron
March 4, 2008 11:39 AM | Link to this
Dusty,my good woman,This is an observation I made while in a strip club.When a woman gets up on a stage and starts removing her clothes,people stop what they’re doing and watch.It makes no difference what the body mass index is.Now I’m not talking about them strip clubs that only employ good looking women.I’m talking about them out of the way places that Redneck Convert and I frequent.
By Sweet Roll
March 4, 2008 11:39 AM | Link to this
By Dusty March 4, 2008 11:02 AM Well, ‘tis said “If you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em!”
You go sweetie. You’re an ‘expert’ where food is concerned!
By Disgusted
March 4, 2008 11:46 AM | Link to this
Political correctness is killing our children. We need to return to the old days, when hurling invective like “fatso” and “lard-a$$” would shame a kid into losing weight. A teacher should take the weight of every kid in the morning, then promptly announce to the class, “Bubba and Sally Mae are the mattress-butts today.” The classmates can take care of the rest.
Hurling invective like “starry-eyed liberal” gets conservatives reelected every time. It’s time we apply the same principle to improving the health of Georgia’s children. The stakes are too high to do otherwise.
By Sweet Roll
March 4, 2008 11:50 AM | Link to this
By Ron March 4, 2008 11:39 AM makes no difference what the body mass index is.Now I’m not talking about them strip clubs that only employ good looking women.I’m talking about them out of the way places that Redneck Convert and I frequent.
Me and that Dusty girl’s real glad to hear that Ron. ‘Cept I agree with William at 8:51. Sounds like Redneck Convert is a transplant; he!! he calls a tater a potato. Now that’s plum stupid!!
By harold
March 4, 2008 11:51 AM | Link to this
Bill was so fat when he stepped on the scale it said, “To be continued.”
Now we have Billary.
By Sweet Roll
March 4, 2008 12:08 PM | Link to this
Noticed two moms got into a brawl somewhere in Mass. One’s son was ‘hogging’ the arcade or some such foolishness. Sure am glad some of those classy folks live in the North!
By Dusty
March 4, 2008 12:10 PM | Link to this
Dear Ron the RolyPoly@11:39
Ruin not thy reputation by mentioning RedNeck. He furnishes the greatest gut-builder of all times..BEER! I’ll bet YOUR overhang is awesome. ‘Fess up. Which new pro-big “O” slogan suits you best?
Sweet Roll @11:39
I am no ‘expert’ where food is concerned. Mother’s ‘good homecooking’ is not my talent. Otherwise, why would my family ask frequently “Could we eat out tonight?”
By ray
March 4, 2008 12:22 PM | Link to this
health insurance companies need to do a better job of quadrupaling the premiums for fat people. and we, as a society, need to do a better job of ridiculing fat people whenever we see them. back when i was a kid and we used to call them ‘hogs’ and ‘fat pieces of sh!t’ there weren’t nearly as many fat people as there are now. nasty, greasy, fat, gross people got no place takin’ up space over here.
By Redneck Convert
March 4, 2008 12:30 PM | Link to this
Well, I reckon I could of went to one of those clubs with Ron back then. I don’t recall those times too good. Anyhow, I stopped going when the missus said I couldn’t watch no girl that weighed less than her. That pretty much ruled all of the clubs out. The only time I recall good was when I went in to The Open Eyeball and seen Miss Farkus from the school on stage. I had to turn her in to the school board about it even if she was just moonlighting to pay the rent.
I see Sister Dusty is ripping and roaring today. She always did blame me for Joe Bill doing the No. 1 in the pulpit when he went to the Church of Holiness drunk. Don’t pay her no mind.
By Mid-South Philosopher
March 4, 2008 12:35 PM | Link to this
My, my. It seems as though brutal honesty can be quite cruel as exhibited by the comment of ray @12:22
Then, again, there are those folks who are skinny in body mass and those who are skinny in intellectual mass. I have always preferred folks with a little meat on their bones…at least intellectually.
By Ron
March 4, 2008 12:48 PM | Link to this
Dear Dusty,My personal bmi seems to have caused dickeydo disease.
By Glenn
March 4, 2008 12:53 PM | Link to this
Jim,
May God save us from legislation that is “well-intentioned.” It figures that this pseudo-Republican social reformer hails from Tifton, where the GOP went for Huckabee over Romney 2-to-1, and where more votes were cast for the fraudulent “Old Razorback” than for any other candidate. Just as Wesley’s Methodism once swept westward from Savannah through Tift County with its temperance message against drunkenness, so has the former head of the Arkansas Southern Baptist Convention swung eastward bearing his message of salvation from obesity through the grace of education.
This may be the most radical column you’ve written in a long time, Jim—-in the true “radical” sense of its being racinated in the things that lie beneath the surface of this transitory issue. Last week MomCat and @@ debated the legacy of the eugenics crusade. Contrary to common belief, eugenics is not principally concerned with birth control and sterilization; it is preeminently concerned with “hygiene”, of which the first eugenic principle declares no difference between the physiological body and the body politic. As it might be, Our Bodies, Our State.
In a sense, this is of a piece with your commentary on the proposed cancer center, because once again the blue-nose elites seek to exert social control over not only our health, but our very perception of health. That, Mr. Wooten, is a degree of social control so intense as to appeal to the prurient interest of any garden variety power pervert. Even one from County Tift, or Hope, Arkansas.
What lies beneath your already rather deep stratum of analysis is an ongoing, unspoken battle of Solomonic proportions: the fight between two mothers over the same baby. As we cannot submit the matter to the adjudication of the great King Solomon, it’s for us, this democratic polity, to discern which is the ontological mother, the biological one or the institutional one.
By Jim's a Cherry Picker
March 4, 2008 12:55 PM | Link to this
Hi Jim,
Interesting bill…sounds like big government to me.
Where are all of these “small government” republicans you keep hyping…all the ones here and in DC love to spend, spend, spend and intrude, intrude, intrude.
Funny.
By Ga Strip Club Association
March 4, 2008 1:00 PM | Link to this
If I had a dog as ugly as dusty, I would shave its a s s, and make it walk backwards….
By Dawn
March 4, 2008 1:01 PM | Link to this
I have already written the state rep for my district, but I’m going to write everyone else I can possibly think of. This is absolutely ridiculous. I do not want anyone at school weighing my children. I have two boys, one in 3rd grade and one in 6th.
My 6th grader doesn’t have an ounce of fat on him and yet, because he’s very muscular, his BMI indicates he’s borderline obese. I’m sincerely concerned that he may become anorexic if told he’s overweight.
My 3rd grader does have a weight problem. We’re fully aware of it and don’t need the schools monitoring it. It’s a genetic thing that’s difficult to control (I’ve dealt with it my whole life). We also know the consequences of obesity since his father had triple by-pass surgury at 49 and we’ve lost close friends due to complications of diabetes. We don’t need the schools harping at us about it.
My son is already self-conscious enough about his weight without it being pointed out and him singled out. He’s a good student and for the most part enjoys school. However, when he saw on the news that they are going to be weighing him in school, he said he wouldn’t go anymore. I doubt he’s the only child who is going to feel that way. The State of Georgia is going to end up with a lot of young children committing suicide because, not being able to visualize a future past school, they will feel that it’s better to die than to endure being weighed at school and possibly ridiculed. I’m not going to let my child be part of that statistic. I’ll move out of state or figure out some way to afford to home school or something before I let that happen.
By ray
March 4, 2008 1:05 PM | Link to this
should have known mid-south philosopher was a cow, being that ‘philosopher’ is just the lib term for too lazy to work.
By jm
March 4, 2008 1:10 PM | Link to this
It is bad enough that the government wants to be in my bedroom, but now my kitchen?
Kind of funny seeing this column a week or so after that large recall of suspect meat, a large amount of which went to the Georgia School System . I wonder why Mr. Wooten does not comment on that. After all, it has only been a little over 100 years since Upton Sinclair wrote “The Jungle”.
By Joe D
March 4, 2008 1:14 PM | Link to this
I’m with jack Atlanta. I bet Sen. Carter has an interest in exercise equipment or some other angle to make money off this bill. Just last week there was an article on the creation of a blueberry council to promote the sale of GA blueberries. The sponsor turned out to be a senator who, surprise, surprise, is a blueberry farmer. Can you say “conflict of interest”?
By Dusty
March 4, 2008 1:16 PM | Link to this
Ah MidSouth Phil @12:35
You have opened new horizons for contemplation. That is: Is intellectual obesity OK? What is the meaning of “fat head”? Was Socrates overweight? Did anybody care? (After that discussion we can then consider how many fat angels can stand on a pin head. I’m determined to stay ‘on subject’ today.)
Ron@12:48
I’ve never heard of your disease and I’m certainly NOT going to ask about it. Whatever. I hope it only causes contagious laughter.
RedNeck@ anytime
Well………………I’m ignoring you. So there.
By Glenn
March 4, 2008 1:21 PM | Link to this
I “celebrate” the invaluable voice that orthodox feminism has brought to the dicussion of public affairs, BUT the same feminist organizations that brook no interference with a schoolgirl’s perceived right to control her own body, cozy to this effort to control the Student Body, en masse. Their self-contradiction is reconciled in that both policies redound to the controlling power of the feminist organizations. They may be women, but they’re as power-maniacal as any man.
By GayGreyGeek
March 4, 2008 1:22 PM | Link to this
Jim’s A Cherry Picker @ 12:55 - the word you’re looking for, in relation to JW’s behavior (as well as the DustBuster’s, jbmesquire’s, etc.) is “Projection”. That, or “Hypocrisy”, given the debts the last 8 years of Republican control of the Federal Government have left for our 7-year-old niece and 5-year-old nephew.
By Dusty
March 4, 2008 1:24 PM | Link to this
jm@1:10
Are you saying “Where’s the beef?”
Glenn@12:53
I think all of us wise ones have decided on the biological mom. You can’t fool Solomon or us. Nice comparison there.
By Mid-South Philosopher
March 4, 2008 1:27 PM | Link to this
Hey ray @ 1:05 P.M.
I learned a long, long time ago that there are those “who sit in the seats of power, prestige, and position” and there are those “who stack the chairs!”
The difference between the two has to do with the philosophy of each. One can be Diogenes (not the example on this blog)or one can be Alexander. Both can be happy. But neither has to stand in the sun of the other.
By jm
March 4, 2008 1:36 PM | Link to this
Dusty@1:24 - Actually, the more appropriate question was where did the beef come from. I remember when eating raw hamburger at the butcher shop was fairly common. Now, it is cook that sucker until it is well done.
Then again, if all the little school kids have food poisoning, obesity problem solved.
By deegee
March 4, 2008 1:43 PM | Link to this
I think that the bill doesn’t go far enough. There is no denying that Mr. and Mrs. Fata$$ America have produced a crop of porkers. They should haul the parents of the kids into school and weigh them too. Then they should make the entire obese family take a course on nutrition. Explain how one visit to Cici’s Pizza can load them up with enough calories to sustain a human being for two days. Let them see how one El Grande burrito can pack in an entire day’s worth of calories. Show them how much sugar is in every 2 liter bottle of soda. These obese kids are going to die of diabetes and heart disease before they have a chance to pay my social security. Hell yeah, I want them weighed. Then make them pay a fine for every day they fail the weight test.
By Dusty
March 4, 2008 1:49 PM | Link to this
Glenn @1:21
I am afraid you confuse orthodox feminism with all out liberalism. Some women are liberals. Some women are conservative.
You will not find conservative women at a feminist comvention any more than you would find Jane Fonda at a Veterans Group.
Women have been speaking out ever since that first “poing” from Adam’s rib. It did not take a feminist organization to awaken women. History reveals strong women throughout the ages.
So, please refer to “hardshell feminists” as a splinter group of liberals. They deserve no more credit than any other liberal group, which is not much.
By chris
March 4, 2008 1:54 PM | Link to this
I have an idea - Lets do nothing
Comparisons between now and 2025 for the citizens of Georgia:
2005 2025 ForecastNumber of people with diabetes 714,500 1,697,000
Severe complications (new cases per year): Blindness 1,000 2,300 Renal failure 1,700 4,000 Lower extremity amputations 3,400 8,000
Deaths contributed by diabetes per year 8,900 21,100
Cost of diabetes per year (in 2002 dollars) $5 billion $11.9 billion
By Dusty
March 4, 2008 1:59 PM | Link to this
jm@1:36
Where in the world are you from? Eating raw hamburger! Yikes. I’ve eaten rare steak but raw…nooo.
How many people had trichinosis? Not as virulent as “mad cow” for sure but certainly pathogenic. Hmmm…how are you feeling these days, jm?
By Andrea
March 4, 2008 2:05 PM | Link to this
I do not need the school to weigh and measure my child. I would love it if the schools would make physical education part of her daily school routine again. She is in kindergarten and has PE twice a month! So the schools cut back PE to next to nothing, serve horrible lunches full of carbs and think that weighing kids will fix things?
It’s also the parent’s responsibility. I do not let my daughter buy lunch at school more than once a week. At our home after homework is done, the neighborhood kids go out and play outside until dinnertime. The kids who stay in the house every afternoon are the only chubby ones on the block.
By jm
March 4, 2008 2:36 PM | Link to this
Dusty@1:59 - Both of my parents are from farm country in upstate New York, which we would visit when I was younger (long, long time ago). If you can find an old fashioned butcher, the ones who still cut your meat to order from the sides of beef hanging in their shops and grind your hamburger right in front of you, try it sometime.
By Dusty
March 4, 2008 2:56 PM | Link to this
Dear jm @2:35
Visiting your grandfater’s farm in upper NY state must have been a lot of fun. I had a great time visiting my great uncle’s farm in middle South Carolina, not to mention the watermelons, country ham and fresh coconut cakes my aunt Kate used to bake. We were lucky, weren’t we?
I will take your word that raw hamburger is tasty. That’s good enough for me.
See ya’ later. Must leave now..
By Former Dawg
March 4, 2008 3:11 PM | Link to this
Schools should have mandatory PE classes including dodge ball, tag and all other physical disciplines.
By Disgusted
March 4, 2008 3:21 PM | Link to this
Schools should have mandatory PE classes including dodge ball, tag and all other physical disciplines.
Agreed. Georgia students will need to be physically strong to handle all the manual labor they’ll be preparing for.
By jbmlaw
March 4, 2008 3:21 PM | Link to this
Just got an email from the bar that said Speaker Richardson has abandoned the “tax on services.” Now plans to freeze property taxes, and a phased elimination of the vehicle ad valorem tax. Not bad. Now lets cut some spending.
By BS Aplenty
March 4, 2008 3:24 PM | Link to this
A TEN-SECOND PLAY
At an “In-Service Suspension” class for BMI-challenged younsters in the fictional Clayton County High School. Class is just beginning but they may take a while…
Attendees at today’s session are: Antoine “Chubby” Checker, RayMarcus “Fats” Domin’o a/k/a “Fatty D” & Christopher “The Notorious P.I.G.” Wallace. Session supervisor is Dr. Levon Brodsky-Haynes, school psychologist.
BRODSKY-HAYNES: (8:00 AM as students settle in) Gentlemen, you’ve been officially classified as “BMI-challenged” which, in short, means you boys can’t open your gobs without wanting to shovel something in. The state can’t handle the fallout if you explode so they’ve passed a law…
CHUBBY: (to Fatty D) I think I’m gonna eat my way through Blueberry Hill before the day’s out…
FATTY D: (to Chubby) I’d give you my Snickers bar, but I lost it in one of my fat rolls…found my sister in one a few days ago (Brodsky-Haynes continues talking) she was OK ‘cept for some second degree burns when my thighs was rubbin’ together.
BRODSKY-HAYNES: …now first we’re gonna calculate everybody’s BMI. And who wants to get weighed first? Notorious, how ‘bout it? Step up to the scale and let’see…OK, that’ll do, and your height…,hmmm, OK.
NOTORIOUS P.I.G.: You know doctor, all my weight’s located, ahem, south-of-the-border, so-to-speak, so I really don’t think I belong in this class.
BRODSKY-HAYNES: I’m just following the guidelines, P.I.G., now step back and take your pet anaconda back to your desk. How’d that get in here, anyway? OK, Fatty, Chubby, step up to the scale and let’s get your weight. (Both shuffle to the front of the room). OK, that’ll do. Right, now that’s taken care of so let’s do the math, boys. Everyone have paper and pencil? Let’s begin…
Around 4:00 PM and the real problem emerges
CHUBBY: (to Brodsky-Haynes) If I multiply two numbers do I have to carry the ones to the tens column or do I use a place holder? OK, I’m getting 2,029 for my BMI.
NOTORIOUS P.I.G.: What’s a “place holder”?
FATTY D: Place holder’s a guy who holds your place in the lunch line - so you can go back for seconds…hey, P.I.G., if I differentiate my BMW do I get my BMI? Wonder what mom’s got for dinner…(fade to black)
THE END
By Glenn
March 4, 2008 3:25 PM | Link to this
chris @ 1:54,
I haven’t yet put my finger on the reason, but I find your post fascinating—-that the alternatives are as stark as either (a) have the state occupy the matter, or else (b) do nothing.
I mean, hey bartender, if ya put it like that, I say let’s have the state take over!
Dusty,
I really was referring to mainstream modern feminism, of which there is of course a specific and storied history. The organizations to which I’d more specifically referred, I’m happy to refer to as “hardshell feminist”, but I already described them as beholden mainly to a particular strain of modern liberalism, eugenics.
The leaders of NOW and Planned Parenthood are of the eugenic elite. That’s why they simultaneously support a girl’s control over “her body” (ignoring, for the sake of their own control, that the girl is a body) and also elite control over “its” (the disembodied girl’s body’s) care and feeding.
As for the Judgment of Solomon, that story is painstakingly crafted to ensure that neither King Solomon nor the reader nor even the warring women can discern that which probably even the author did not know: the identity of the biological mother. (Note the trouble taken to explain that the two women gave birth at about the same time, and nursed each other’s babies; and that one baby was switched, almost somnambulently, with the other, etc.)
The genius of Solomon in that pericope lay in his devising a method of discerning which one deserved to be the mother; in a sense, which one really had a calling to be a mother, and which one was consumed instead with deadly envy and hatred.
Because the State operates a school system that consistently and ritually stigmatizes and expunges fully half its clientele, I would argue that today King Sol would award the baby to someone other than an officer of the State, since the State has proved itself perfectly content to split the baby.
By catlady
March 4, 2008 3:42 PM | Link to this
Teachers don’t have time for this. Nor does anyone else employed at the school. Currently I do two pages of job assignments in addition to “planning, implementing, and evaluating instruction.”
In addition, do YOU want to be the one who tells an obese kid’s parents that he is obese? Have you ever looked at these parents? The apple does not fall far from the tree. I sure wouldn’t be willing to tell one of these heifers that her calf is fat! I know: let’s let the LEGISLATORS tell them! That female legislator who drove 700 miles in one day could drive around for a week or two and cover the whole state (at 48 cents a mile) and do it for us!
Do not assign teachers ANOTHER SINGLE THING TO DO until you take five things OFF the list first.
By Count Dousty
March 4, 2008 3:43 PM | Link to this
……you cant put your finger on it, glenn, cause your finger’s always up it……ew
By Glenn
March 4, 2008 3:45 PM | Link to this
Andrea @ 2:05,
It’s not for you that the State proposes to weigh your child. It’s not even for the child. It’s for the state, and in the interest of social control and planning, that the government arrogates this function, allowing you to peek at its records if you really insist.
By Jane
March 4, 2008 3:46 PM | Link to this
Being overweight is no fun - people like Ray make that point obvious - however overeating is not the only reason for being overweight. Some are medically induced. I am 5’8” and weighed 130 prior to a medication change - I no longer weigh the same and my self esteme has tanked thanks to individuals with the caring of a toilet seat like several of the posters here. Yes, some do need to lose weight but believe it or not they KNOW IT! when it becomes an issue for that person they will do something about it - why namecall and be excessively rude to someone when it is sooo uncalled for. Some of you on this blog need to seriously grow up.
You send a child to school to Learn not to be weighed and humiliated!
By Curious Observer
March 4, 2008 4:04 PM | Link to this
It’s not for you that the State proposes to weigh your child. It’s not even for the child. It’s for the state, and in the interest of social control and planning, that the government arrogates this function, allowing you to peek at its records if you really insist.
That’s an extremist’s view, Glenn. The state isn’t a separate entity. It’s an expression of the political will of the majority of the people.
Some of us have a vested interest in having a healthy society. When we don’t have one, we pay higher insurance rates and higher tax rates. The “it’s my business” crowd seems to ignore the fact that there’s a high societal cost attached to extreme obesity. It’s ironic that the same people who support banning smoking in restaurants statewide, regardless of the restaurant owners’ viewpoint, for health reasons, view keeping track of the BMI as an unwarranted intrusion on their parental rights.
I agree that teachers already have too much to do, given the nonsense thrust upon them by school systems and NCLB, and if this legislative initiative passes, they ought to be spared the task of weighing children or communicating the results to parents. But I don’t accept the idea that the primary objective of the legislation is to exert state control. The people of a state have a strong vested interest in the population’s health, for it hits them directly in the wallet.
By BS Aplenty
March 4, 2008 4:23 PM | Link to this
Jane, etal
A limited apology if my coarse sense of humor offended. I care about my fellow man - but not obsessively. In this rough and tumble world, I believe he should first care for himself.
If you or any good American wishes to remain obese, then I believe that is your right. However, I think YOU should foot the healthcare bill for your “lifestyle.” Am I uncaring for my attitude? Not at all, I care deeply about freedom BUT I shoulder the responsiblity for my life - as you should for yours.
Best wishes in your attempt to regain control of your health.
By Magenta
March 4, 2008 4:38 PM | Link to this
Sorry, I think if kids are going to spend a significant portion of their waking hours in school, then they have to eventually leave there with the sense that somebody cared about them. Too many kids have parents who think french fries and Hi-C represent great nutrition. If at least half the messages they accumulate before adulthood involve healthy living and intelligent decision-making, they may have a chance at doing a better job with their own kids.
There aren’t all that many examples of kids going to school and coming home with erroneous or harmful information. This is not the same as bad examples from the other kids — I’m talking about what they get from teachers and the curriculum as a whole. I think too many parents resent the schools because they come off looking like better parent figures than the actual parents do.
By Glenn
March 4, 2008 4:56 PM | Link to this
C.O. @ 4:04 p.m.,
To which “extreme” are you accusing me of belonging, exactly, and on what spectrum? I rather take mine to be the traditional and mainstream view: the sanctity of the interests of the individual and the family over what you call the “vested interest” of the State.
Statism may well be the sincere view of the “some of us” who would seek “a healthy society” by force of law in the compulsory environment of the public school. But statism never is clearly nor even openly explicated and defended in our deliberative bodies.
Indeed, where in the Constitution of the State of Georgia, which constitution constitutes this school system, does it explain what is the social contract between the State and the parent(s) or guardian(s) and their children? In short, what is it that licensesU the implementation of your views, or Senator Carter’s, at the expense of other people’s children?
Were his purpose economic, as yours is, then he’d find economic, rather than diseconomic, means of accomplishing his ends; running his program through the most expensively bad system of “education” ever devised is simply not economical. And were his mind set on the common good, he’d balance his prospective program, now to be operated via an alternative, and economical, service delivery system, against the cost in liberty it imposes upon the child and the child’s parents or guardians.
But he doesn’t do any of that. He doesn’t do it because he doesn’t think to do it. And he doesn’t think to do it because, despite his oath of office, he simply doesn’t care about such things when it comes to out-gaveling his rivals under the Gold Dome Speedway.
In Constitutional Law the rights of the individual are forever “balanced” against the State Interest, which the Supreme Court, for more than a century, has been at pains to show is not synonymous with the will of the majority. This jurisprudential fact alone, if not your years of observing U.S. politics in action, should be sufficient to convince you that we are not the State. Rather, we are they whose interests are weighed over against those of the State.
As I’m wont to ask, What is the State? Where does it live? And why does it insist on eating children for breakfast?
Well, here are some guesses. It lives under a gold dome, in the hearts of sweet-talking power politicians who lust for more. It eats children because they are the stuff of the instruments and instrumentalities, the tools and processes, of the only kind of real power that a Joe Carter ever could conjure, much less possess; the greatest power reserved to the states under the U.S. Constitution: control over the next generation.
Would that we were the State, C.O. Would that we were. We ought to do something about this situation, you and I. Don’t you think?
By Renee
March 4, 2008 4:59 PM | Link to this
I will bottom line all of this nonsense - the goverment does NOT exist to solve YOUR problems. It does not exist to make sure kids are physically fit and have loving homes, bail you out of bad financial decisions, support multitudes of unplanned/unwanted children, and provide illegal aliens jobs and healthcare. As an adult, it is YOUR job to manage your family and finances. Heavens, where we will be in 20 years if this type of govt-intervention/no personal responsibility attitudes prevail?
By RW (the oravaginal)
March 4, 2008 5:20 PM | Link to this
Glenn, just how many times are you going to post? How many words? Nobody is reading them. It frightens me to think there’s folks out there writing for no reason other than to distract from the decent people’s. They deserve a forum free from blogtards. The discussion itself deserves to get advanced by good solid citizens with a few moments to comment. You torture a subject. You go way past appropriate repartee; Overly long. Uninteresting. There’s no reason anyone needs to read one more word from you. There’s no cure for you. You’re just the part of life that everyone hates, but cant do nothing about. Now get lost and let someone else comment.
By JK
March 4, 2008 5:29 PM | Link to this
Renee makes a good point at 4:59. However, with regard to this topic, the government/state/school board beaurocracy DOES accept bids and enter into contracts with food service corporations to feed both students and employees in our public schools. That the food in many schools contains more fat, sugar, salt, and chemicals than nutritious ingredients is at least part of the problem. (And the schools DID slash previously-existing physical education from their cirriculum.) If a program or service is administered using our tax money, then it should be responsibly and efficiently managed. As citizens, we have a right to expect and demand that from any branch or agency of the government, including our LAME-A$$ LEGISLATURE.
By RW (the bidet)
March 4, 2008 5:30 PM | Link to this
Wootens piece in ten words or less: Fat-chicks starts in Middle School.
By Ron
March 4, 2008 5:52 PM | Link to this
Curious observer,I sometimes think there are two countries within the confines of the U.S.border.The government and the rest of us.
Glenn— Pay no attention to RW.He’s green with envy.
By Glenn
March 4, 2008 5:56 PM | Link to this
RW (the oravaginal),
OK, I’ll keep this short. Four simple points:
1) Go straight to hell;
2) I’ll take as long as I like to refute someone who’s trying, as you often do, to pigeonhole me with stupid epithets such as “extremist”;
3) Your 5:30 post doesn’t begin to correspond to Jim’s column, which you are constitutionally incapable of understanding, though everyone else seems to understand it enough to discuss it intelligently;
4) Bitez-moi.
By @@
March 4, 2008 6:05 PM | Link to this
Jim:
Was there any mention here today of those parents and school administrators who have sought to, and, in some cases have, banned outside play in the interest of a child’s self-esteem and liability risks?
It looks like the legislature is trying to solve one problem that is the result of a previous problem that our culture has created.
I was just wonderin’.
By Pat Weaver
March 5, 2008 8:41 AM | Link to this
As usual, Wooten spits out his idealogy at every issue and ignores the real problem. Of course fat kids are almost always the parents’ “fault.” That doesn’t change the fact that the rest of us will shoulder much of the cost of their healthcare to the tune of billions in increased costs. If some money spent now helps decrease taxpayers’ burdens later, what kind of dolt would oppose it? Fossils like Wooten.