Thinking Right

By jbmlaw

January 8, 2008 8:09 AM | Link to this

Good morning all. On matters of education I yield foundation issues broadly to our friends Mid South Philosopher and Glenn and @@, since they know what they are talking about and I don’t know what I am talking about. Nevertheless, we are all competent to analyze the competence capacities of Leviathan (take that, PoFo), and I think any dispassionate review will find the performance of government schools “lacking.” The problem is endemic to the structure.

The core of the problem is that we each know what we think a school should teach, and we do not agree among ourselves. Thus setting performance uniform standards by government diktat will ensure nothing but unhappiness for a majority, no matter what solutions are embraced. We each know what we think “the government” should spend for education, and how it should allocate funds, and we do not agree among ourselves.

An economic solution for such a fractured market is painfully obvious, but I think I’ll let it pass for a change. Instead I’ll stir up everyone with one of my usual irrelevancies, see who will take the bait. I think every minute and every penny spent teaching evolution is a pure waste, not because the theory is not plausible, but because it has no relevance and no practical application in the life of anyone. Fewer than 0.00001% of our population will ever have any use for any principle derived from “evolution” and it is a gross waste to expend the effort. In contrast, basic morality and simple principles of etiquette are wholly missing in our culture, and close-order drill in such matters would provide the most bang for the buck of anything that could be taught in schools. It could even make leftists nicer.

To the larger issue of legacies, Fouad Ajami writes an eye-opening essay in today’s WSJ discussing the “Bush Legacy,” http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110011098. The legacy is much greater than I realized. Would that his domestic legacy were so compelling. Nevertheless, the timely Bush tax cuts saved the economy from the irrational exuberance of the 1990s; if only he had cut domestic spending also.

By Amused

January 8, 2008 8:18 AM | Link to this

Heh. JBMLaw, you are a funny fellow. I like you, you make me laugh. Wooten, you too. You guys should do stand up. Heh, heh. Bush. Legacy. Evolution. Heh. Funny guys. Wooh. Man. Tummy hurts a little from that. Hmmm.

By Steve

January 8, 2008 8:32 AM | Link to this

I lost Wooten at the “Bush legacy” part, and moved onto something more intelligent to read (which wasn’t his blathering in this column).

By OneForTheRoad

January 8, 2008 8:38 AM | Link to this

Let us pray that Perdue’s legacy is confined to one state’s boundaries. Have you noticed how hard those red clay stains are to get out? Almost as hard as black gold, Texas Tea. How does that song go? Oh yes.

We’re gonna blast those stains right out of our clothes.

By Curious Observer

January 8, 2008 8:43 AM | Link to this

We will hear today an abundance of argument that educational funding has little to do with educational quality.

However, the facts speak differently. Look at the per-capita educational expenditures listed on the Web site of the National Center for Educational Statistics. Vermont spends 15.5% on education; Georgia, 10%. And everywhere you look in the tables, the Midwestern and Northeastern schools are at the very top, along with a few Western states like Wyoming, while the South clusters at the bottom. Now look at SAT and other national testing scores by state; they pretty well align with expenditures, with the single exception of the District of Columbia, which has the benefit of federal funding.

The expenditures reflect regional values and priorities. If Georgia and the other Southern states really wanted high-quality public education, they would place the dollars on that priority, then demand accountability. The truth is that Southern states, in particular, harbor an anti-intellectual, anti-education bias, and they have done so for decades. As with the Southern obsession with the death penalty, Southerners want to bully their way to better public education while limiting funding support. They want to punish teachers and principals and school systems, rather than to devote resources toward hiring the very finest teachers, along with the necessary emphasis to students on the importance of educational achievement.

A final thought: Georgia will never have the kind of teachers necessary for achieving educational excellence so long as it allows the education industry to dictate the credentialing process. Any person familiar with higher education will tell you that education majors, as a group, have the lowest academic achievement in their subject specialties—and the fewest courses in the subject specialty area. There are, fortunately, a few pleasant exceptions, but generally you will not find top-tier subject matter experts in the current elementary and secondary teaching corps. (You might note that practically none of the professors in higher education, except for the education departments, would qualify to receive a teaching credential.) If Georgia and other states continue to allow education departments to pack the curriculum with “methods” and child psychology courses, then insist on those courses as a precondition for licensing teachers, don’t expect the best and the brightest to show up in the classrooms.

By TW

January 8, 2008 9:03 AM | Link to this

The public schools located in the middle of the big houses work just fine. Can’t serve a filet mignon when there’s only ground beef in the frig. When students show up ‘ready to learn’ - they do. Public education is merely a barometer for our society as a whole. Want to ‘fix’ education? Ensure that each child eats dinner, sleeps for eight hours, has a safe environment at home in which to function.

By Captain Freedom

January 8, 2008 9:17 AM | Link to this

Regretfully, THE Captain agrees that history will treat Our Leader of The Glorious Codpiece and Guvvner Let’s Pray for Rain in much the same way. Stupid liberal history.

By Sonny Puredoo

January 8, 2008 9:26 AM | Link to this

Thanks for the butt licking Wootie. About the only grand gesture I like to make is a just-for-me secret tax break that I can lie about knowing of.

By OneForTheRoad

January 8, 2008 9:56 AM | Link to this

This reminds me of another time. A simpler time. A time when

WE DON’T NEED NO EDUCATION

WE DON’T NEED NO THOUGHT CONTROL

Those times were nice at one time. A time when I cared little of time.

Ahhhh. Those were the good ole days. The days of the good ole boys. It seems like only yesterday.

By Redneck Convert

January 8, 2008 10:10 AM | Link to this

Well, I never made it out of 5th grade and it never hurt me none.

I say stop wasting tax money on schools. If people want their kids to go on to colledge and be all high and mighty, let them pay out of their own pocket. Anyway, they’ll have to go overseas to get a good job after wasting all that time. That’s where the jobs are these days. Anyway, all you get from this fancy schooling is a bunch of libruls that vote to raise my taxes and waste them.

If God would of wanted you to have a fancy education, you would of been borned with a little diploma in your hand. But you wasn’t, so get use to it.

So keep my taxes low and stop trying to get me to pay for fancy schooling for your kids. I didn’t do You Know What and have those kids and I shouldn’t have to pay for them. Lets use the money we save for the Go Fishing campaign and maybe another race track or two. And a tax cut.

This is GA, not some Northren state.

By Dusty

January 8, 2008 10:25 AM | Link to this

RedNeck does not have to tell us he doesn’t have any education. WE KNOW THAT.

By GaEducated

January 8, 2008 10:31 AM | Link to this

My dad was educated in Georgia. I was too. He made it through 5th grade. I made it through college. It was tough for him growing up — picking cotton and trying to make an honest living. It was tough to watch the other cotton pickers pad the bag with rocks because they were paid by the pound. Cotton was rough on the hands. The thought of us growing up without a better education was rough on the heart. He was so damn proud of me when I graduated from college. I’m proud of my 5th grade educated dad too.

By No Laughing Matter

January 8, 2008 10:34 AM | Link to this

Sonny has been governor for 5 years. How much time does he need before he starts coming up with solutions? His slow, slow, slow approach leaves us with problems like the water shortage. The water issue, the dispute with Alabama and Florida, the runaway development in N. GA, were all problems five years ago, too. When does he stop training and gathering information and start governing?

By @@

January 8, 2008 11:22 AM | Link to this

jbmlaw @ 8:09:

Yielding to me on the the issue of public education was a kind gesture, but alas I perform in the private sector—up until recently that is…

with the legislation offering vouchers to special needs students I recently encountered a parent who tried to wield that government voucher and oddly enough I found myself frustrated and firmly supported by my Administrator and Director of Education.

I’ll take this opportunity to address your so-called irrelevancy of teaching evolution versus morality and simple principles of etiquette. Now granted, special education students have no need or mental capacity (in most cases, not all) to comprehend the theory of evolution. I too see no need to dwell on the subject unless and until a student is of the age to pursue a field of studies which usually occurs around the age of 20. If one’s field of studies is science, the study of evolutional theory is not a problem for me.

The principles of etiquette though play a large part in my profession. Behavior problems/disorders are inherent with almost all of our students disabilities. This year, through the voucher program, we received a set of twins (paternal). One could clearly be diagnosed as autistic while the other’s cognitive skills were unquestionably advanced. The problem I encountered was that the mother did not want these two children separated in the classroom and I can only assume they had never been approached as individuals—only as a pair. The problem I encountered was that the more advanced twin had adopted the behaviors of his brother. This definitely stood in the way of his ability to progress.

Although we approached their mother about separating them and pointing out why, she refused. I never give up…I wanted to prove my hypothesis that one child was capable of going all the way—the other would take more time. What to do…what to do?

Solution!!! One had to be emotionally isolated—as they fed off of each other’s behaviors and I felt like a quarterback being double-teamed and sacked with every attempt to teach. Which one would not receive my attention? Which one’s behavior do I ignore? Unfortunately it was the child who needed my instruction the most. I opted to give positive reinforcement to the one most capable because he needed to move beyond and away from our little student body of special needs children. It worked! Once my “little project” realized that positive behavior received positive reinforcement his brother and his behaviors were no longer his focus. The brother with autism had begun to see the difference as well. Positive reinforcement was something he wanted as well but he struggled.

It was time to let mom observe. She didn’t like what I had done. She went to our Administrator and Director of Education and complained. They both supported my efforts. She pulled her boys.

It broke my heart. Not because I succeeded with the one more capable, but because the other had only just begun and I had lost two and a half-month’s of instruction with him. I was ready to move forward with the one who needed me the most—the one with special needs.

Our primal tendencies inhibit our abilities. Principles of etiquette open the door to all sorts of possibilities.

As to your link? Fouad Ajami is right on the money. I am in 100% agreement with his assessment of Bush—have been for a long time. Patience, determination, and confidence rule the conservative mind. All else is hysteria.

By Abomi Nation

January 8, 2008 11:28 AM | Link to this

During his first campaign for Governor, Perdue called for a metro wide traffic light synchronization plan that in other big cities has had verifiable positive results in lowering drive time which in turn lowers energy cost and helps the environment. Good leadership would have seen this very good idea through. “Sonny did” was a lie. “Sonny Waited and Did Nothing,” is more like it.

I guess good leadership in Georgia means cooking up crazy tax plans. Good leadership in Georgia means spending parts of two legislative sessions on idiotic NRA gun laws. Good leadership in Georgia means diverting metro Atlanta tax dollars to other parts of the state. Good leadership in Georgia spends its time on child predator residency laws that are obviously unconstitutional. Good leadership in Georgia means no beer on Sunday. Good leadership in Georgia has “Go Fish” up and running in less than a year! Imagine that.

Good leadership in Georgia is keeping us just above third world country status.

Go Fish

By Old Physics Teacher

January 8, 2008 11:37 AM | Link to this

short and sweet: The lawsuit is about politicians making rules about what is to be taught, how many students are going to be taught by a single teacher, and then calculating how much it was going to cost. When they saw how much it was going to cost, they failed to give the schools that amount of money. This is not about the schools wanting more money; all they want is what the legislature agreed it was going to cost.

In business terms, the owner of the company (the legislature) advertised for an salesman (school systems), agreed on the pay and performance requirements for the territory and then hired the salesman. The owner then increased the salesman’s territory (increased requirements for graduation) and refused to pay the additional expenses.

By jbmlaw

January 8, 2008 12:00 PM | Link to this

Dear @@ @ 11:22, I always enjoy your well-considered thoughts. You clearly had a vision on how to handle the instruction problem, and your essay is a microcosm of the various problems that invade all education. For me the larger issue is, “who should decide.” You recognized a problem and found a solution that seemingly worked. You then also encountered a constraint on your imagination, in your case the parent, but for this argument a legislative constraint would have the same effect. The parent, perhaps unwisely, distrusted your judgment. Every legislative requirement placed on the education system is the same, a pronounced distrust of the professionals hired to perform the work. A better solution, from my view, is to allow the free market to work. As in the case you cited, allow parents to vote with their feet; over time your better-than-most standards would win over most parents.

As to “evolution,” I respectfully note that attorneys have no use in any principle derived from Darwin, although admittedly most of us have not evolved far enough to perhaps find a use?

By GT

January 8, 2008 12:13 PM | Link to this

“Perdue’s style is to ask questions, gather information and make fact-based decisions. Water policy is an example. While the knee-jerk reaction would be to force everybody to put a brick in the toilet tank and send an armed posse of compliance police…” Wow, you nailed this one Wooten. Thank goodness Purdue didn’t do something as knee jerk as requiring all Atlanta area water authorities to cut usage by an arbitrary 10%.

Promotion of water conservation statewide? Leadership on water policy BEFORE Lanier reached its historic low, despite months of below-average rainfall and years of litigation with Florida and Alabama? Hell No! That would have been considered too “costly”.

Thanks for setting the record straight, Jim.

By Bubba Li Cious

January 8, 2008 12:23 PM | Link to this

Darwin! I once knew someone named Darwin. I think he was a cousin — twice separated and three times removed.

The first time he got separated he had to give up the hunting dogs. The second time he got wiser and gave up the trailer instead. I don’t know where they came up with three times removed. He’s been thrown out of more places than that.

By Curious Observer

January 8, 2008 12:33 PM | Link to this

How revealing of Georgia that people honestly believe that the theory of evolution need not be taught until a student reaches adulthood! Thanks. That’s all I needed to know. Case closed.

By Company Man

January 8, 2008 12:44 PM | Link to this

The earth may be only 6000 years old. How? Why? Because the only variable in Einstein’s equations is Time. Time is relative depending on the observer, therefore Time passes differently for all of us. SO do the math.

The earth may be flat. How? Why? Because a flat earth warps space-time so that it only appears round to our limited senses. Do the meth.

Did Satan rebel against God because he knew he’d lose? NO! Satan thought he could win. We all will inherit enormous superpowers in the afterlife and we will have our shot at taking over heaven and hell. WE transform into angle/demon like a butterfly from a caterpillar. Do the moth.

Exploding the myth.

By jbmlaw

January 8, 2008 12:45 PM | Link to this

Dear Curious @ 12:33, just for the heck of it, can you give me an intelligent reason, other than trivia pursuit, that anyone would need to know Darwin?

By jbmlaw

January 8, 2008 12:46 PM | Link to this

Dear Curious, well other than “who is the most significant individual born on February 12, 1809 other than Abraham Lincoln?

By ron

January 8, 2008 12:58 PM | Link to this

In my education system we’d get solidly grounded in science and math.Science includes evolution.It excludes mysticism.In my education system,test scores would indicate how well a teacher was teaching,as well as giving an indication of how well a student was learning.I might set up two systems,one for those who prove they want to learn and one for those who prove they don’t.Students in both systems would have to learn,I would just go about teaching in a different way within the two systems.I would need two different types of teachers within these systems.Above all,I would do whatever it took to identify the obstacles that stand in the way of teaching, and then I would do whatever it took to overcome these obstacles.Discpline is a huge object that stands in the way of teaching,and if students don’t get an education at home in social etiquette,then it must be learned at school before any other type of learning can take place.Hungry students can’t concentrate on learning,the hunger must be addressed.If we must spend the bulk of the first few years getting these points corrected,then we must do that.Learning will take place after.

By jbmlaw

January 8, 2008 1:09 PM | Link to this

Dear Ron @ 12:58, just out of curiosity, why bother teaching evolution? Isn’t that in the realm of totally useless information, like how many angels dance on the head of a pin, or does Mike Huckabee have a clue about the evils of socialism? As to your revulsion for “mysticism,” does that mean you will exclude non-Euclidean geometry?

By RW (the bidet)

January 8, 2008 1:13 PM | Link to this

What’s your point ron, you forgot to make a point.

By Curious Observer

January 8, 2008 1:17 PM | Link to this

Jbmlaw,

In your educational scheme, why don’t we just skip the history of the last 200 years, since it’s all old and useless information?

I hope Vanderbilt doesn’t learn your identity. You are an embarrassment to that institution and to others who have earned their advanced degrees honestly.

By ron

January 8, 2008 1:29 PM | Link to this

The point,my fine RW,Is find out what needs to be done and do it.let’s hope this is why Perdue is taking his time.He’s finding out before he acts.

By OneForTheRoad

January 8, 2008 1:32 PM | Link to this

There is nothing wrong with pointless talk. I do it all the time — all the time I’m not making a point.

By Aquagirl

January 8, 2008 1:35 PM | Link to this

jbmlaw, I just stumbled in for the day and wanted to chime in on your alternate subject, while using fewer commas than ron….Why teach evolution? One practical reason is antibiotic resistance, if some of these people paid attention in Biology they wouldn’t be hounding the Doctor for antibiotics and contributing to MRSA type superbugs.

In a more general way, you might ask why study history or advanced math if you’re not going to be employed in a field which directly uses those skills. We learn math to make us smarter, as my teacher used to say…it’s good logic training. We learn about history so we don’t repeat the mistakes of the past. And we learn about evolution because it’s a major basis of biology.

I suppose there is nothing technically wrong with slumping through life not caring why the world works as it does, unless you want the U.S. to have intelligent citizens. Then we need to teach subjects in school, not etiquette.

By GaEducated

January 8, 2008 2:22 PM | Link to this

Let’s not be too scornful of those desiring a little civility from the to-be educated. My teachers always thought I learned more, for example, when I was paying attention to them. Of course, I am being presumptuous regarding the talk of etiquette.

By Redneck Convert

January 8, 2008 2:48 PM | Link to this

Well, I finished my chicken weenies just in time to log in and see this GAEducated make a fine point. Paying attention to the teacher is awful important. We need to give a good beating to kids that don’t. It sure would do wonders to make them pay attention more. Why send the little hellions to school if they won’t listen?

I mind when Joe Bill and me was in the 3rd grade. We started talking to each other instead of listening to what the teacher was saying. All of a sudden we both got whomped upside the head. Knocked us right out of the seat. You can bet we listened real hard after that. Not that we learned anything more. The kid that raised the most heck was the one that growed up and become a doctor. I never went to him though. I figure if he wouldn’t listen to the teacher he won’t listen to me when I’m in his office.

I bet this @@ whomps her students good like a good GA conservative should. Anyhow, if they don’t learn they will grow up to be big dummies like Sister Dusty and jbmlaw.

Whomp them now, I always say, before they grow up and we have to use the Death Penalty on them.

By Shar

January 8, 2008 2:56 PM | Link to this

Good Afternoon and a belated Happy New Year to all. I find it illuminating that Mr. Wooten’s article should appear the same day that the AJC reports on Clayton County students trying their best to shame their school board members into responsible behavior. Those who have the most at stake in education reform - the students - are usually the last voices heard, if at all, when “change” is being negotiated among those with the greatest interest in the status quo. And the response by the Clayton County school board is particularly striking: that the schools ‘must be doing something right’ to produce students who can so eloquently and perceptively point out the errors of the board members. In other words, no change is really needed if the students are already so demonstrably clever.

Governor Purdue has had five years in which to address Georgia’s abysmal educational performance. The study group he convened on the budget is more than a year behind in delivering their report, and said report is far more narrow in scope than its mandate called for. The Governor’s feints at education reform have been sporadic and superficial (remember the “Governor’s Cup” fiasco? His Secretary of Education’s stumble on evolution?) while whole new layers of remedial classes have been added at UGA, Tech, Perimeter College and many other Georgia schools to address the state’s high school graduates’ lack of preparation for advanced work.

The “panicky mob” in Clayton County was driven to “hysteria” - and action - by the absolute failure of their school board to run their school system with the benefit of students foremost in mind. Governor Purdue, presiding over a school system at the bottom of the country, has chosen to toddle along with the status quo, blithely ignoring any sense of urgency despite a skyrocketing drop out rate.

Yes, there are times when leadership requires the discipline of a distanced perspective. There are also times when the threat is great enough to spur intervention without the benefit of the long view. A leader has to be able to tell the difference and act accordingly. Governor Purdue, with record revenues and a Republican majority in the State House and Senate, has dawdled and spun while Georgia’s students are lost by the thousands. Why is that “better public policy”?

By jbmlaw

January 8, 2008 3:16 PM | Link to this

Dear Aquagirl @ 1:35, re evolution, you cited the only theoretical basis I could conceive – those people whose entire existence revolves around understanding genetic mutations certainly benefit from a week’s study of Darwin, but nobody else does. What is that, maybe 100 people in Georgia (how many work for CDC on real diseases? I suppose they all work on mutations.) Wouldn’t that time be better expended introducing Pechman’s “Tax Policy” or Hayek’s “Road to Serfdom,” or anything with a practical application in one’s life?

As to some of your other musings, I agree with logic training, although I am not sure mathematics is the only way it can be taught, not when something more directly applicable like spreadsheet formulas can be in a curriculum. History is a total waste – otherwise why would democrats be trying to repeat the lessons of post-Vietnam? Other than impressing people with erudition, what true value derives from being able to quote Shakespeare or the Bible? (Maybe I need that from time to time in my job, but most people don’t.) More to the point, why do we compel a one-size-fits-all education system? We require future plumbers to learn Darwin, and sales people to learn plane geometry, and newspaper columnists to study the lineage of the titans of the civil rights movement. We magnify the meaningless and useless, and ignore the invaluable tools of life, such as manners and customs and standards of decency. We produce citizens unable to penetrate the fog of politicians, because they have never learned to cut through the smoke in schools. Nobody learns to think, but everyone learns politically correct “facts.”

By GaEducated

January 8, 2008 3:17 PM | Link to this

Dear Red,

I never received a proper whomping in public school. Those were reserved for Dad to apply with the leather strap. Fortunately, very few applications were deemed necessary.

Now, it was an entirely different story when it came to getting a thumping with the good book. “Hush up and pay attention” are the words I recall following the “thumping” sound.

By jbmlaw

January 8, 2008 3:19 PM | Link to this

Dear Curious @ 1:17, they’d probably muse, “well the sob learned to question authority, which is all we taught back then, instead of mindlessly doing what his ‘betters’ tell him.”

By Disgusted

January 8, 2008 3:29 PM | Link to this

My dear Shar,

You simply must understand that doing something to improve public education in this state would cost money. And more money means more taxes. A Georgian will pardon a quadruple ax-murderer before forgiving a politician who increases taxes.

No, we will muddle along, using the threat of funding restrictions and decertification as a means of improving public education. We have the redneck mentality: we expect Bloomingdale’s quality for WalMart prices. Governor Purdue knows he can’t expect his old Nokia to do the same things as the iPhone, but that won’t stop him from claiming he can.

By Aquagirl

January 8, 2008 3:56 PM | Link to this

jbmlaw @ 3:16, you seem to not understand the point of my previous post. Let me put it this way: MOM, WITH SCREAMING CHILD: doctor, she has an ear infection, can you give her something?

DOCTOR: Your child shows no signs of a serious infection, so we should wait and see if she feels better in a day or two.

M, WSC: But can’t you give her something? I’m tired of her screaming.

DOCTOR: I’d rather wait, using antibiotics too much may mean they won’t do any good later if she does develop a serious infection.

M, WSC: (whine, complain, moan, b!tch, etc.)

DOCTOR: (giving in) Okay, here’s a prescription for an antibiotic.

Now, if mom understood the basics of evolution, she’d be able to understand what the doctor is saying. And why her kid should finish all the antibiotics even if the ear infection starts getting better.

As it is now, she’ll send her kid back to day care/school/the mall with a resistant bacteria. Which will spread to other children, then to the general populace. Then when you get it, it will be your concern, not just the concern of those 100 people at the CDC you’re mumbling about.

The mother, in this instance, views pills from the doctor as magic, just as surely as a pre-literate human viewed a draught from the clan shaman. In the 21st century, that’s pretty dang scary.

Besides, if we don’t teach science, how are kids going to study it later on? Your question doesn’t really define what you think “Darwinism” is…evolution can be defined as the change in a population’s gene pool. It’s essential to understanding biology, not some strange offshoot of radical secularists which can be sectioned off until the college years.

I will most likely drop this subject, as I suspect you are adopting a troll approach. Your statement that history is a total waste seems quite ridiculous, even for one of your extreme moments of illogic. If you’re playing devil’s advocate, fine, but to represent it as your viewpoint is rather strange. Unless you want to land a spot on The View

By Profit

January 8, 2008 4:38 PM | Link to this

I don’t see that paying teachers more money will make them better teachers. Just the opposite in fact: The kids do poorly on National tests, the teachers get a raise. Hmmm say the teachers, I think I see a way to make more money.

By jbmlaw

January 8, 2008 5:30 PM | Link to this

Dear Aquagirl @ 3:56, thanks but I got it the first time. Not only do modern moms still regard pills as magic from the shaman, but most doctors regard themselves as God. I fear Darwinism has done nothing to enhance the congnitive capacities of the post literate human.

I do not oppose teaching “science” but the science that should be taught ought to be limited to chemistry and maybe physics, and maybe only at the post-high school level. After all, nobody really learns any science before college.

I assume your definition of a “troll” is anyone who holds a perspective toward the “proper” education other than that of the educrats. I am thus a troll, but one troll who knows waste in government spending when he sees it. And I see it everywhere.

By Amused

January 8, 2008 6:01 PM | Link to this

JBM, You earlier asked for a reason to teach evolution. Let’s play the reductio ad absurdum game. Why teach classical literature. You do not need to know any of the classics in order to be fully capable of creating a grammatically correct sentence. Further, why teach art? Further, why teach art appreciation? There is no reason to know more than basic technical drawing, right? Why even have a classic liberal education grounded in the scientific method or exploring philosophical discourse or examining literary and artistic endeavor and progress. The argument you used (fewer than .00001% of our population will ever have any use…) is equally true of classical literature, art appreciation or philosophy. 99% of people will never need any of these things. Etiquette and Morality could easily consume 50% of the curriculum. Of course, whose etiquette and whose morality you will teach could be a little problematic. Hmmm. Christian morality? Political etiquette? Who’s to say which is the right etiquette? If you question the compulsion to “one size fits all” education, then you certainly have no problem with a predominantly Black Muslim inner city school teaching Muslim morality, right? Or a Northeastern school teaching the “etiquette” of riding on the subway? Careful of your assertions, your petard is showing and the hoist is yanking.

By Aquagirl

January 8, 2008 6:04 PM | Link to this

jbmlaw, your use of the term Darwinism and placing the word “science” in quotes makes me suspect you are opposed to teaching evolution; if so, it would explain a lot.

My definition of a troll is one who is here merely to indulge in baiting or emotional manipulation. Non-responses to logical points, ad hominim attacks, and so forth are good indication of a troll. Not opinion of public policy. However, if you think “educrats” are those who are wasteful for wanting children to learn science, it doesn’t make you a fiscal conservative. It makes you someone who sees schooling as for indoctrination. (teaching morals? Really?) Ironically, this is often the cry of the anti-evolutionists.

By Mara

January 9, 2008 11:26 AM | Link to this

why teach evolution in school? Because most school kids don’t know what they’ll be when they grow up so we try to expose them to a wide range of subjects. Why not a cursory exposure instead of “in-depth”? Because evolution is such an important tool in many of the sciences. And because who knows what a child will absorb and become interested in later on in life. I wasn’t terribly interested in science as a child but when I hit the college classes, I found myself absolutely fascinated by it. Crazy, huh? But without the foundational education I absorbed in High School, I doubt I would have been nearly as interested.

Sure, I’d like to see a wider range of classes available. Philosophy, Classic Lit, the Arts, Music, etc. Subjects that make us well-rounded people. But Darwinism, THAT’S one of the important theories. Even if one doesn’t go for the “hard” sciences, evolutionary theory is just as applicable in the way language shifts, in cultural studies, music and art. How things change over time is part and parcel of any study…even sales and marketing.

THAT’S why we need to teach evolution.

By @@

January 9, 2008 1:21 PM | Link to this

My post may have indicated that I’m opposed to vouchers. That wasn’t my intent.

I would love to see the day that government gets out of the business of education. The Mom who came with her voucher (government) clearly showed that she thought this gave her some sort of power over how I choose to educate her kids. It didn’t work in a private school where the curriculum and methods are established by teachers who care more about the future of the child as opposed to the coddling of the child. Certainly she had the right to walk with her children in tow. Her decision had me second-guessing my method. What could I have done differently? What should I have done differently? I answered my own question—NOTHING. My interest was in what was best for the child, not the parent.

Although we were looking forward to the opportunity of receiving students on vouchers it’s made us think…government vouchers won’t buy what they want just because it’s money. It’ll buy them the best we have to offer if that is, in fact, what they’re really looking for.

Our funding has always come from parents along with corporations that pay for tuitions when parents can’t afford it. Believe me…our teachers don’t make the big bucks. We’re not in the business of limiting education for the children by robbing from the resources. We’re in the business of using our resources in the best interest of the children.

Corporations have been very generous with us since our inception. It’s not as if the children we educate will likely end up as their employees. Public schools use corporations as “Partners in Education”. I’ve always wondered what it would be like if corporations funded our kids’ education. Educating America’s future workforce. Who better to know what will be needed and what will serve our best interests? They need to survive and they need our kids for their survival.

No doubt that’s a scary thought for liberals errr “our leftist friends”—evil corporations and all that garbage. I’ll admit that I, myself am challenged when it comes to economics. I have no idea as to the overall cost to educate kids in America or that corporations could or would want to take on the challenge. I just know that a government should not be given free rein to educate those who will vote for them. Seems like a conflict of interest to me.

By Ed Pritchett

January 9, 2008 2:09 PM | Link to this

George Bush’s legacy will only grow if we can drag him to the World Court and try him as the war Criminal he is.

By james dorsey

January 10, 2008 5:39 PM | Link to this

Education reform…it’s a never ending process in GA…and not a successful one at that. As a former educator, I lived through numerous “plans” to improve the lot of our schools. All have failed and GA consistently remains at the bottom of the heap. Years ago, I saw a study that hits at the heart of the matter: Look at the number of students in a system getting free or reduced lunches…the greater the number, the less effective ANY grand plan will be. Don’t get your hopes up..GA will always bring up the rear. Just look at the Legislature!

By Glenn

January 10, 2008 5:50 PM | Link to this

Yep, james, and several of us here who were in your trade or are now feel as you do. My own sense of it is that efforts at “restructuring” or “reform” are deeply ulterior rather than deeply or even superficially structural or concerned with the form “education” takes. Almost none of the largely self-appointed wannabe child-savers has any notion of what the structure of schooling is, much less of what the structure of education is.

While they fiddle around, children burn. They are an immensely destructive force in our society, precisely because their work is so important and the quality of their work so poor. As you say, just look at the Legislature!

(One might also look at the presidential candidates in this light.)

By Glenn

January 10, 2008 6:05 PM | Link to this

@@ wants us to get out of the education biz. A fine prospect. Another fine prospect would be for the government (us) to go into the education biz, a biz the government has not been in for a long, long time. What biz it is actually in, is a matter for another day. But it isn’t education, and it isn’t pretty.

Calling the stuff that happens in the compulsory schools “education” doesn’t make it education any more than calling the Stalinist empire the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics made it any of those things.