Home > Thinking Right > Archives > 2007 > December > 17 > Entry
DEL.ICIO.USDo endorsements matter?
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
We’ve discussed this before, and most contributors here insist political endorsements carry little or no weight with them. But surely they matter with some voters — or else candidates wouldn’t continue to solicit them.
In recent weeks the big endorsement was Oprah of Obama, at least to the extent that it translates into crowd appeal on the stump, as it did in Iowa and South Carolina. Over the weekend, John McCain drew favorable press from the Des Moines Register, Iowa’s largest newspaper.
In an endorsement that may do him little good in the Republican primary, the newspaper reminded voters that he’d opposed President George W. Bush’s tax cuts in 2001 and 2003 and supported him on comprehensive immigration reform. Wrote the Register:
“The force of John McCain’s moral authority could go a long way toward restoring Americans’ trust in government and inspiring new generations to believe in the goodness and greatness of America.”
McCain picks up the endorsement today of U.S. Sen. Joe Lieberman of Connecticut, an Independent who caucuses with Democrats. He also was endorsed over the weekend by The New Hampshire Union Leader, that state’s largest newspaper, and from The Boston Globe, which circulates in New Hampshire’s southern population centers. McCain has virtually conceded Iowa to Mitt Romney and Mike Huckabee, but is mounting a full-court press in New Hampshire, where he defeated George W. Bush in 2000.
The Globe said in its endorsement that “the iconoclastic senator from Arizona has earned his reputation for straight talk by actually leveling with voters, even at significant political expense.”
Do endorsements matter in highly-publicized races? Probably not — except to the extent that they reinforce decisions voters have already made. They really tell us more about the values and agendas of the individuals and organizations making the endorsements than they do about the candidates.
Today’s question is not really about whether you’re influenced by endorsements. We’ve previously established that most of you are not. It’s to identify voters, or voting blocs, who are influenced, if any. Oprah, I’m convinced, is one who matters. If she can convince viewers to buy specific books and read, she can convince viewers who may pay little attention to politics to follow her recommendation.
Lieberman matters somewhat with middle-of-the-road and with wavering Independents, to the extent they exist. A Lieberman adviser said the endorsement is because McCain “has the best chance of uniting the country in its fight against Islamic terrorism.” I wish that were true — but I’m afraid no such person exists. So what we’re looking for now is one who will persist, despite the polls, and do what’s best for America’s present and future security.
Comments
By jbmlaw
December 17, 2007 10:38 AM | Link to this
Merry Christmas all. I remain in that camp that believes endorsements don’t make much difference, although I admit my bias is less firm than previous, due to sound argument by three of our fellow bloggers, of different perspectives, all of whom I regard well (seems like we were discussing the Harpo blessing of Osama/Obama.) While I noted the Lieberman endorsement this weekend, the recent event that causes me to rethink my position entirely is the Des Moines Register endorsement in the democrat race. The newspaper threw a lifeline to the Hildebeest, at a critical time for her; if she leaves Iowa with a victory, there is little to account for the change in momentum other than the endorsement (and, of course, every scenario for success for Obama requires him to draw more delegates in Iowa than Hillary.)
The potentiality of a McCain-Lieberman alliance raises all sorts of interesting ideas. We all recall the John Kerry trial balloon in 2004, when Sen. McCain’s name was floated, then withdrawn, as a potential vice-presidential nominee. If, hypothetically, Sen. McCain now suggests Mr. Lieberman – every Republican’s favorite Democrat - as a potential vice-presidential nominee, does McCain not supplant Rudy as the most-electable Republican? The entire Republican primary calculus could suddenly shift into a series of alliances, with candidates suggesting their potential vice-presidential nominees. While I believe the Huckabubble – apologies PoFo - will deflate soon enough, he may well be the most logical vp choice for Rudy, as the latter finds meaningful resistance among evangelicals; I think evangelicals are not to be ignored, although I admit that I just don’t trust Huckabee’s executive skills. Duncan Hunter would be a good fit for either Mitt or Fred, on the assumption the latter two would not work together. It seems to me the Kerry trial balloon idea has other precedent, albeit an unsuccessful one – cannot recall with certainty.
While we are discussing McCain/Lieberman, an unrelated event over the weekend causes me to give a second look at Mr. McCain – his analysis of the performance of Pelosi-Reid: “John McCain sits across the table from the editorial board of The Wall Street Journal, fielding questions on everything from taxes to torture to terror. He’s asked what surprised him the most about the behavior House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid with regard to Iraq. His answer—“their lack of patriotism”—is of the characteristically impolitic kind that often defines his personality. Over the course of a 75-minute conversation, it’s on display time and again.” http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110010997 Nobody but McCain could get away with a statement like that. I’m not abandoning Fred, but I admit I am much less hostile today to McCain, whom I had dismissed entirely.
By Shark Sammich
December 17, 2007 10:42 AM | Link to this
Jim, endorsements matter insofar as a specific endorsement may lead to some good things. I think you’re on the wrong track about Oprah, though. It’s not because she’s going to convince a lot of her viewers to consider Obama who wouldn’t otherwise do so (athough she may provide a bit of cover to those who didn’t previously think Obama was all that authentic a progressive.)
Rather, Oprah matters because she was able to get tens of thousands of people who wouldn’t otherwise attend a political rally to lend not just their fannies in seats, but their contact information.
I don’t think Joe can do that, not much, for McCain. I’m not really sure what Joe’s endorsement of McCain gets McCain except a little bit of cover for those few folks who claim to be “Democrat” but really aren’t, who were going to vote for the Republican presidential candidate anyway.
By Anonymous
December 17, 2007 10:57 AM | Link to this
quote: “Today’s question is not really about whether you’re influenced by endorsements. We’ve previously established that most of you are not.”
Wrong, Wooten—we’ve established that most people CLAIM they’re not influenced by endorsements. Just like most people claim that advertising and commercials make “no difference” to their buying habits.
Advertisers, promoters, marketers, and campaign managers know better. There’s a reason commercials are played and billboards are erected—because, deny it as they will, people ARE influenced by them.
By NeoCons are Clowns
December 17, 2007 10:58 AM | Link to this
No self respecting democrat would want the endorsement of Traitor Joe.
By Redneck Convert
December 17, 2007 11:05 AM | Link to this
Well, endorsements matter for me. I know if the AJC endorses some politican I’m going to vote against him. You can bet your life he will be a librul. And if Sister Dusty and jbmlaw endorse somebody leastwise I know who the crook is that will give my job to some Mexican. And if Fox News endorses somebody I know I’m voting for somebody that will put religion first and give the dickens to the godless libruls and these civil rights laws and abortion and other sins.
The other important endorsement is on a pay check.
Well, I finished my Christmas shopping in spite of the War on Christmas by the libruls. Every time some sales clerk wished me Happy Holidays I answered back Merry Christmas—just to let them know they wasn’t going to fight my religion and get by with it. I know the missus will be mighty pleased with her electric crock pot.
I can’t hardly wait till the Rev. Huckabee is President. He will probly say a prayer when he gets swore in and finish with a big loud “In Jesus name we pray amen.” That will fix up the Jews and towelheads and other heathens. Then we can get rid of welfare and Medicare and all the other -are’s and -aid’s. Our taxes will stay low and we can fight the towelheads in Iraq and maybe Iran too until they got nobody left alive. And we will get a Supreme Court that will outlaw abortion and giving our house seats to Those People and other librul causes.
Anyhow, I was mighty suprized to see Sister Dusty was on the internet trying to look me up yesterday. Heck, all she has to do to meet me is come up to the trailer park. No need to waste her brains on looking me up on a computer. I could of told her she wouldn’t find me on the internet. Except in Wootens blog.
I guess this Wootenduh guy is back on the roads hauling stuff. I sure get tired of reading the books he posts on this blog on weekends. Maybe Wooten needs to put in a word limit.
Merry Christmas everybody and drink plenty of beer. Which some of you do and worse when it comes to TFTT and a few other crazies on here. It keeps me in a job.
By Peter
December 17, 2007 11:09 AM | Link to this
I remember Micky Mouse endorsing George Bush, so it must work !
By Shark Sammich
December 17, 2007 11:10 AM | Link to this
jbm, most accounts I’ve read of that 2004 “trial ballon” you mention have McCain soliciting Kerry for a spot on the ticket, not the other way around.
Of course they talked—they’re Senate colleagues—but it was never terribly serious nor likely to happen.
Most Republican voters do know that Joe Lieberman is a “baby killer,” and that he’s had the endorsement of NARAL throughout his career, right? They ok with that?
By ron
December 17, 2007 11:10 AM | Link to this
So what part of no where would Huckabee be in if the Baptist Church didn’t endorse him?Endorsements are like paid advertisements,you don’t think they work,but obviously they do.McDonalds didn’t get where they are because of a great product.Neither did Huckabee.Endorsement work and work well.
By Glenn
December 17, 2007 11:12 AM | Link to this
Ah, so Sharky you’re the one, with the beans in the basement cafeteria. You do know.
Jbm, I like your take, though I think your man would make a better running mate. As for Lieberman, that’s an endorsement that works for me, to answer Jim’s question, because I care what he thinks. Likewise with Geo. Will’s active campaigning for Rudy.
Makes me want to paraphrase an old story about Dutch…
Director: So, Jack, how do you like Joe Lieberman for McCain’s VP?
Jack Warner: No, no. Joe Lieberman for President; Fred Thompson for VP.
NeoCons are Clowns: I’d like your estimate as to when people such as you will ever have any notion whatever of what treason is.
By getalife
December 17, 2007 11:18 AM | Link to this
If you want to see what a filibuster looks like, turn on C Span2.
Rockefeller wants telecom immunity for spying on Americans.
The gop agrees.
Dodd is filibustering on immunity for breaking the law. He is standing up for the Constitution and rule of law.
What a great American patriot and Dodd should be the Dem Senate leader.
Nothing needed changed ,w was warned about the attack. He ignored it.He had a memo saying obl was going to attack. He ignored all the warnings and used this threat to break the law, invade a country for no reason and steal billions of your money. w destroyed this country after ignoring the threat.
We need more leaders like Dodd and purge the rest. Real Americans who believe and stand up for the Constitution like they swore on the bible to do.
By NeoCons are Clowns
December 17, 2007 11:19 AM | Link to this
Glenn: Treason is supporting a foreign power over America at America’s expense. Israel is a foreign power. The transfer of American weapons systems, tax dollars, and gold plated homeland security contracts to israel consitutes treason, imho. The pro israel lobby has spent decades arranging for America to hate the Arab and muslim worlds only because Israel is at war with the Arab and Muslim worlds. What is good for Israel is definately not what is good for America.
By Dennis
December 17, 2007 11:23 AM | Link to this
Ah, dear Readers. Today we have a good attempt at propaganda for those less astute, i.e., as Mr. Wooten pitifully bemoans, we don’t have a standout republican who “has the best chance of uniting the country in its fight against Islamic terrorism.” I wish that were true — but I’m afraid no such [Republican] exists.”
Mr. Wooten tries to be clever and by unspoken enundo, ignore democrats. So, I’ll do it for him.
There isn’t a democrat who “has the best chance of uniting the country in its fight against Islamic terrorism.” No such democrat exists.
We should keep in mind, tho, that it was the corporate (oil especially) and congressional republican leadership, who needless, thoughtless and selfish got this country into its second Vietnam under the pretense of “fighting Islamic terorism” (not to excuse the democrats who jumped on board that political bandwagon).
(Wonder if Mr. Wooten is big enough to admit that this quagmire was repbulican initiated)?
Come on folks, let’s lay it out on the table for all to see and just admit, there isn’t an outstanding candidate in either party worth voting for regardless of who endorses them.
You don’t have to be a blind conservative not to see it, just an ignorant one to deny it.
By RealRep
December 17, 2007 11:26 AM | Link to this
Though Mike would have welcomed Joe’s emdorsement, he is satisfied with the Senator backing the other Republican Candidate.
A vote for Giuliani is a vote for Hillary.
Huckabee ‘08
By Shark Sammich
December 17, 2007 11:37 AM | Link to this
Dennis, since you believe “there isn’t an outstanding candidate in either party worth voting for regardless of who endorses them”, I sincerely hope you stay at home on election day.
Me, I’ll gladly cast a vote for any of six Democratic candidates running today. I’ll not-so-gladly vote for Hillary, although it will be good clean family fun to consider the harm such a Presidency will do to the fragile Southron menfolk who are terrified at the prospect.
By Mid-South Philosopher
December 17, 2007 11:37 AM | Link to this
Good mid-day, Jim,
With respect to the candidate best able to carry the fight to the Islamist Fundamentalist Fanatics, I haven’t seen him or her yet! Until such time as the cost of attacking the west is made too high for the servants of Allh, they will continue to strike when the opportunity presents itself, either in Europe or here in the U.S. No one running now has the courage to inflict the level of *blood atonement on the Muslims to the level that it will be an incentive for them to end their support passive or otherwise of the fanatics.
So don’t talk to me about who will best lead the fight against the terrorists!
By @@
December 17, 2007 11:42 AM | Link to this
Jim:
I can’t tell if you’re buying the book or making book.
Celebrity endorsements mean nothing to me. Why they think I would value their opinion over my own is insulting. It’s simply upstaging those of us who sit in the cheap seats.
Anyhoo, I like what McCain had to say at jbmlaw’s WSJ link — this one in particular:
“The Syrians sent someone to Annapolis [for the Israeli-Palestinian peace talks]. That’s good news. The Iranians may be cutting back on the explosive devices. Pakistan: Musharraf is acting as we wanted him to.”
*In his view, these are all connected, and all related in turn to the reversal of fortunes in Iraq since the surge began. “And I’m convinced that if we can continue this success, you’re going to see a change in the Middle East. Plus, some progress on the Israeli-Palestinian issue. If we fail, we’re not going to be in the neighborhood and it’s every nation and every group for themselves.”
That last sentence in my own words — “You, the Middle East produced defective pottery. Pick up the broken chards or cut your feet on them. We’re taking our super glue and going home.”
The Middle East has never been taken to the brink before. This is their historical moment.
By getalife
December 17, 2007 11:49 AM | Link to this
My bad.
“Debate over the FISA update began at 10 a.m. Monday, and Dodd began speaking around 11 a.m. The Senate will vote around noon to proceed to regular debate on the FISA update measure. Dodd is expected to begin his full filibuster sometime this afternoon, once regular debate begins.”
joe and john were dead wrong on bombing Iran and gave us $100 a barrel oil prices.
They both should retire in disgrace.
Losers.
By jbmlaw
December 17, 2007 11:52 AM | Link to this
Dear Shark @ 11:10, re Joe, abortion is not a litmus test for republicans; that is the case only with democrats. Joe would not be a problem for republicans, and he improves the odds of republicans carrying NY, CT, and NJ.
Dear Glenn @ 11:12, broadly agree with your analysis. While I am not giving up on the race, I now see Fred adding significant value to either Rudy or Mitt, making them more attractive to the South and MidWest. I think Fred does not add such value to McCain nor to Huckabee.
By Dusty
December 17, 2007 11:56 AM | Link to this
No endorsements from me this morning. I know. Who cares anyway? I’m still waiting even though I like Joe Lieberman. I like McCain also but I think the presidency requires a lot of strength and energy and I am not sure that McCain has that much left. He wants to try but….I just don’t know. (Don’t bother to tell me about FDR and a different time.)
Neocons are Clowns aka known as The Clown and anti-Semite besides. Israel is one of our strongest allies in the Middle East. They have the “guts and go” to do something. They have already been helpful in Syria. So this lib doesn’t like them. Figures.
More trivia..note to RedNeck. If you were living in the Biltmore House I wouldn’t be looking for you. That’s like looking for the Grinch..
By Dennis
December 17, 2007 12:16 PM | Link to this
By Shark Sammich December 17, 2007 11:37 AM Dennis, since you believe “there isn’t an outstanding candidate in either party worth voting for regardless of who endorses them”, I sincerely hope you stay at home on election day.”
Even if I stay home and don’t vote, doesn’t change the fact that there is presently no candidate in either party worth voting for.
You don’t have to be a blind conservative not to see it, just an ignorant one to deny it.
By Glenn
December 17, 2007 12:22 PM | Link to this
Hail Dusty,
Well I will so bother to tell about FDR. God bless that man, but it was disgraceful of him to run for the fourth term, given what he knew of his health. So your point about McCain is relevant to any candidate who may be, for example, fighting cancer, as Rudy, Thompson and McCain all are or have done (if you can ever really just “have done” with it). Totally within bounds, then.
BTW, Bill Clinton’s medical records. Why so secret? Inexplicably deviated septum, perhaps? STD?
Yeah but @@, endorsements do matter to some folks. They matter to me. Ain’t I a woman? Er, a person?
Mid-South, are you falling for all that Bush propaganda about meeting threats to national security? Didn’t you get the memo from NeoCons are Clowns about how the Administration’s treasonous support for the strongest state and only stable democracy in the Middle East is given at the expense of America’s security? That America finds herself “hating” the Arab and muslim worlds only because Israel arranged for us to “hate” them?
Dennis, hi. This one’s for you…
[Giuliani/Thompson 08]
By Glenn
December 17, 2007 12:29 PM | Link to this
Does anybody know who Andrew Brody really is, or what idiot made him Director of the Charter Schools division of the Georgia Department of Education, or why he insists on saying stupid things in the Sunday paper?
By @@
December 17, 2007 12:43 PM | Link to this
Yeah but @@, endorsements do matter to some folks. They matter to me. Ain’t I a woman? Er, a person?
Glenn….that’s an odd name for a woman — is your last name Close?
No self-respecting woman is going to degrade the intelligence of her gender by casting a vote for Hillary just because…
and anyone who makes that assumption insults ALL WOMEN. We’re not a herd of dairy cows to be milked. ‘Ya know?
By Jackie
December 17, 2007 12:49 PM | Link to this
Endorsements only gives one insight into the supporters the particular candidate has. In the case of Lieberman, it is an open secret that he unequivocally supports Israel in any endeavor. John McCain garners Lieberman’s support because of their friendship and their support of Israel. In speaking to Mr. Wooten’s point concerning someone uniting the country. We live in a democratic republic and if someone were to “unite” the country, would we not be under dictatorial rule. Dissent and different opinions about different subjects are what make our country strong and viable. We all have our opinions and we have to take them to the ballot box to forge a majority road map to solve those problems. I think it is in our best interest to hear all opinions relating to any problem we have. Someone may have an idea that is far more comprehensive than one put forth by others.
By Jackie
December 17, 2007 12:57 PM | Link to this
News reports indicate the Pentagon is lobbying Dubya to withdraw troops from Iraq quickly and increase strength in Afghanistan. The Afghan war is beginning to get out of control. I wonder if the neo-cons will accuse the military of “cut-and-run” now? Secondly, the VA estimates more than 65,000 soldiers have some form of Post Traumatic Syndrom. What is our government going to do to provide treatment to these brave military personnel? The VA has a backlog of 149,000 ALREADY. Will we leave these folks to “their own devices” for treatment like we did the Marlboro Marine of Fallujah?
By GayGreyGeek
December 17, 2007 12:57 PM | Link to this
jmblaw gifted us with abortion is not a litmus test for republicans; that is the case only with democrats.
Wow. I bet there’s pink candy rainbows and unicorn puppies in jmblaw-land, as well.
Of course, pointing out that there are those who are both Democratic as well as anti-abortion (Heath Shuler, anyone?) while anyone pro-choice is laughed out of the Republican’t party would do no good. The concept of “Demonstrable Facts” doesn’t exist in jmblaw-land…
By Glenn
December 17, 2007 1:04 PM | Link to this
@@, no I ain’t really a woman. But my being influenced by endorsements doesn’t make me a milk cow, either. If PeeWee Herman endorses a car, who cares? But if Carroll Shelby endorses one, I take note, sure.
Jackie, I’m glad you’re on the field, as I’d meant to thank you for following up the other day on my question about defense. My response goes like this: a) knew you would be concerned about the Chicoms, which is why I asked; b) yes, agreed that China’s terrible polution is a global problem, globally abetted, and a cause for real concern; c) no, as dumb as it may sound I don’t worry about exess profit-taking on the part of U.S. defense contractors, though I am disgusted that defense pork-barreling by politicians and absurd cost overruns by bureaucrats continues to such an extent 65 years after the Truman Committee first shed light on those goings on.
By NeoCons are Clowns
December 17, 2007 1:13 PM | Link to this
I personally want to take the fight to the pro israel fanatics - Support Patrick Buchannon, the only one willing to stand up to the pro israel fanatics in america.
By AmVet
December 17, 2007 1:14 PM | Link to this
Jackie, you make a good point about varying opinions. And lets face the reality, the nation is pretty much equally divided.
I was watching a program that Tom Brokaw hosted outlining the sometimes tumultuous events of 1968. On it, the enigmatic Pat Buchannan (of Nixon fame) talked about that year being the crucible of the Culture War and how that cultural divide still exists today, and may well always be with us.
And I contend that there are those of us who listen to Johnny Winter and those who choose Donna Summer. No big deal, right?
UNLESS, like our current commander-in-chief, you win the White House twice with razor thin margins and then stupidly, IMHO, declaim and actually believe(!) you have an overwhelming mandate to advance your supposed conservative agenda.
No more of the “give a little to get a little” mentality that is one of the hallmarks of true statesmanship and effective governance.
Is it any wonder things have gone so terribly wrong under this administration?
By deegee
December 17, 2007 1:16 PM | Link to this
Here is what happened in Elkader, Iowa yesterday during a John Edwards campaign visit.
“An elderly man told Edwards that “something has been sticking in my craw” and explained that “a certain fella committed two murders in California and the jury found him not guilty. And all they said was, ‘It’s payback time.’ How are you going to have that come out in this election to combat one of your competitors?”
And we are supposed to believe that this Iowa caucus is some sort of a bellwether? The campaign cycle is way too long. If you are an individual that is swayed by a 30 second sound bite then endorsements matter. Other than that, they are meaningless.
By getalife
December 17, 2007 1:19 PM | Link to this
Does your water taste funny?
“Atlanta county turning sewage into drinking water
In Gwinnett County, the water coming out of the tap is clear, and clean. It is treated sewage.”
By Glenn
December 17, 2007 1:20 PM | Link to this
NeoCons are Rare,
Point us to the enemy. Who in America is a “pro israel [sic] fanatic”, PetitFors?
By Glenn
December 17, 2007 1:24 PM | Link to this
getalife,
Maybe y’oughta get into the bottling bidness down there, and find some cheap way to get the stuff over to here. Surely you’ve carried enough water for the DNC to know how it’s done.
By Tiny Tim
December 17, 2007 1:24 PM | Link to this
Getalife, I just had a bad breakfast burrito, and I’m about to use the restroom in Gwinnet County. Hope nobody gets sick. Thanks for the “head’s” up.
Get it? Head? In england the loo is called the head. no wait, that’s in the navy, you can sail the seven seas.
Oh, what’s the difference. Endorsements Do matter. Most americans cant think for themselves. They need someone to tell them how to vote. Why do you think they can call an election 12 seconds after the polls open? Cause we all act and think alike.
Baaaaa
justkiddingGBUE
By NeoCons are Clowns
December 17, 2007 1:24 PM | Link to this
Try every synagoge in town, stupid.
By AmVet
December 17, 2007 1:37 PM | Link to this
In spite of our esteemed columnist’s veiled attempts at aping Neal Bores (not to be confused with the brilliant Niels Bohr), Rush Limburger or Sean “stunningly handsome” Hannity, the claim that somehow his readers are more erudite and in all ways beyond the mediocre is laughable.
Besides this joint ain’t no Dixieland Lake Wobegon, “Where all the women are strong, all the men are good-looking and all the children are above-average.”
So I concur, Tiny - size, er endorsements, do matter. At least to the easily manipulated masses.
How else good countrymen, can you explain how that disgusting tasting Coke is the Real Thing? Or that nauseating swill Budweiser is The King of Beers?
Madison Avenue, boys and girls.
And guess what? They are the men behind the curtain who will provide you and me our next commander-in-chief.
Drink deeply.
By jbmlaw
December 17, 2007 1:38 PM | Link to this
Dear GGG @ 12:57, add Hugh Casey of PA and between us we have now named the entire population of elected pro-life democrats; we have that many pro-abortion candidates among our top six running for president on the republican side.
By getalife
December 17, 2007 1:39 PM | Link to this
Sessions called upholding the Constition and rule of law “civil libertarians”.
They swore on the bible to do this and they should resign in disgrace for not doing it.
Pathetic, allowing obl to win and change our country.
AT&T donates to their campaigns and you can see the corruption Edwards is talking about. There were some telecoms that turned down spying on Americans and upholding the Constitution.
This is a historic debate in the Senate.
By Glenn
December 17, 2007 1:43 PM | Link to this
Ah yes, the religious “fanatics” who plot treason against us, and send their money to the Middle East and teach their children to bifurcate their allegiances, and urge them to fight a Holy War in their parents’ stead, to kill innocent adults, and children like themselves, who hate this country and demand that we hate “the others”, or else they will kill every last one of us. Our real enemy.
The Jews.
No wonder you never use your own name. You’re embarrassed by your own sleazy samizdat.
By LydiasDad
December 17, 2007 2:08 PM | Link to this
Depends, some don’t. Some hurt a candidate tremendously (SF Mayor Gavin Newsome, entertainer Harry Belafonte, actor Sean Penn), some help tremendously (Oprah), and some maybe mixed. If Bill O’Reilly promoted someone (which he won’t), I’d give them some serious consideration. Others would not.
By TW
December 17, 2007 2:12 PM | Link to this
Glenn - did I read you correctly, that you excuse W’s incompetence because he ‘tried his best?’ Please tell me that’s not what you meant to convey. Certainly, you’d agree, we are talking about the Presidency of the United States and not a voluntary coaching assignment at the YMCA…
By jbmlaw
December 17, 2007 2:21 PM | Link to this
Dear Glenn @ 1:43, I am beginning to think “NeoCons are Clowns” is a “Redneck Convert” imitator, but with a harsher edge – one who makes a statement about anti-semitism by promoting it? He has grown harsher in his comments about Jewish people over the past few days, so he may be feigning a mental illness.
Dear TW @ 2:12, I cannot answer for Glenn but I think those who deny the success of the surge are the onew who have some explaining to do. Iraq is now safe enough that democracy has a chance, no thanks to our congressional democrats. I guess they simply lacked W’s vision.
By Jackie
December 17, 2007 2:33 PM | Link to this
@Glenn
I am surprised that you would not be concerned with the excess profits that the military-industrial complex made using your money. Doing a cost/benefit analysis of your budget, to what degree do you think it has impacted your financial well-being? Secondly, being a fiscal conservative, I assume you are, does that not give you pause that we are all giving up the well being of our future generations of Americans?
By TW
December 17, 2007 2:38 PM | Link to this
jbmlaw - touting the surge is about like Roddy White pulling up his jersey the other night in New Orleans after he scored, despite the fact that the Falcons were getting their tail kicked. Sadly, we failed our soldiers by not giving them the leadership they deserve, and because of that many have needlessly died.
The lone victory the Republicans can claim, concerning the surge, is that they were able to turn it into a discussion about whether two marines are better than one…some of us already knew that…
By Southern Democrat
December 17, 2007 2:44 PM | Link to this
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all. It’s tough to not be in a good mood this time of year… everyone seems to be a bit quicker with a smile and/or more courteous. I hope that everyone has his/her shopping done and can rest and relax as we prepare ourselves for what should be a great 2008.
On a serious/political note that is mostly off-topic, I had a nice long conversation with my friend (the Libertarian) who is of the left-leaning camp of that ideology and, while a true friend, does not possess the intellect of our resident Libertarian thinker, Jbmlaw.
In our conversation, we were discussing the recent actions by the CIA and the telecom industry when I blurted out, much to both of our surprise, “I would rather risk 10 more 9/11’s than reduce our freedoms anymore.” This comment, lubricated by a bit of Johnnie Walker Blue that the Libertarian received as a Christmas gift, has caused me to re-think a lot of what I had previously thought about the “War on Terror.”
Simply put, I am more than willing to lay down my life as a private citizen and die at the hands of terrorists, in exchange for my being able to enjoy the liberties I grew up with and, most importantly, my fellow Americans to be able to enjoy them.
Most of us have not sacrificed anything since 9/11, save Jbmlaw (the Ensign), and a few others who have sent treasured loved ones into harm’s way, but, sadly, we HAVE allowed the government of this country to overreact in very visible ways (Dept of Homeland Security), and more subtle ways.
We have allowed ourselves to tolerate too much intolerance, too much rhetoric, and too little vision.
By Department of Homeland Security
December 17, 2007 2:52 PM | Link to this
Dear Mr./Ms. Southern Democrat:
Please report to the War on Terror reeducation center on Cobb Parkway for your mandatory training sessions.
Cheers, GWB
By jbmlaw
December 17, 2007 2:56 PM | Link to this
Dear Southern @ 2:44, merry Christmas and welcome back – we have missed your perspective. I agree with your arguments on DHS, but I will continue to disagree (and I will try to remain respectful – you know how I am) on waterboarding. Now that we know that exactly three terrorists were subjected to approximately three minutes each of waterboarding during the Bush administration, I adjudge the issue is inconsequential. I understand your Kantian view – that any is too much and is unacceptable – but I think saving even one life is worth the inconvenience suffered by terrorists at the hands of our noble waterboarders.
By Jackie
December 17, 2007 2:57 PM | Link to this
@jbmlaw
If the surge is working, why are the professional military people saying that we must remove ourselves from this situation by the spring unless we break the Army and the Marines? Secondly, there have been widespread reports that the Madr Army is regrouping and training for the new offensive they will bring forth next year. They have said the USA can not maintain it’s current level of manpower and resist their offensive when they are prepared. Third, notice how the other countries in the region are intensifying their efforts in their fight against our military. Afghanistan, Pakistan and the Turks fight against the PKK(Kurds) in northern Iraq. I would submit, this is the quiet before the storm.
By See ...
December 17, 2007 3:13 PM | Link to this
… waterboarders are noble, not to mention fly and groovy.
By cane
December 17, 2007 3:20 PM | Link to this
Mayor Franklin recieves endorsements from drug dealers, dog fighters, and airport concessions
By Jackie
December 17, 2007 3:20 PM | Link to this
For all the fiscal conservatives, please take note that Dubya has used an accounting method to diminish the size of the true deficit. Instead of using the stand accural accounting, record expenses when they occur, they have used the cash method, recording expenses when they are paid. Consequently, the deficit would actually be $275 Billion instead of the $169 Billion being touted. The enormous borrowing from the Social Security Trust Fund has created a projected deficit of $75 Trillion dollars over the next 30 years and threatens to destroy our economy. What was all that foolishness about tax cuts being good and borrowing money from the Chinese to fight a war being in our best interest? Seems like the buzzards are beginning to roost.
By Glenn
December 17, 2007 3:32 PM | Link to this
Jackie,
Thanks for making that accounting point. Reagan did the same thing, BTW.
By Glenn
December 17, 2007 4:12 PM | Link to this
TW, come on, my friend. When have I ever tried to pull a fast one on YOU? I said, in plain pixilated black-and-white, that what President George W. Bush has done with his incumbency is quite good enough for me. So if you’ve got a problem with my position, please aim at the target—that statement—and not at my political left little toe or something.
Southern Dem @ 2:44,
As W. sez, Heidi. That is a damned compelling point you make, compelling also in the way you make it. It’s one I’ll have to mull, and discuss with several flavors of friends. One that I, fer one, would like to get back to you on.
Jackie,
I’m just saying plain-facedly that while I don’t want to give the military contractors a blank check any more than Truman did or you do, I do trust them at least as much as Eisenhower did. I was California’s consultant on Defense Conversion for some time, and UC Berkeley’s before that. As a member of the state Defense Conversion Council, formed with legislation I drafted while working for UCB, I presided over the evaporation of much of the defense industry of the state once called, by an East Coast historian, “The American Gibraltar”. My grandfather owned a defense plant in Inglewood, near LAX. In WWII Galbraith and his people took more than 85% in taxes. My grandfather had no problem with that. Though he was barely able to ride out the War for his employees, who worked round-the-clock for three years straight, he was justly proud of his contribution to our security, then and in decades since. I don’t know the contractors on the East Coast, in Maryland, Virginia, South Carolina, but I know the West Coast ones and the ones in e.g. Texas, Kansas and New Mexico rather well, and they are not the fiscal problem. The suits in the cornered building are; the hogs on the Hill are; and frankly since we’re spending immensely more money on counter-countermeasures against the bloody Chinese, the Chinese are and so is every one of us who buys Chinese this season. I grant you that we have to be vigilant about defense contractors because they have their own insidious mission-creep, and if one of them turns up dirty, I want the Navy to take of them, at the Pole.
Jackie and Jbm, because they’re exhausted, that’s why. They’ve given outstanding service for such exhausted personnel. What is the tour average up to now, Jackie, almost 2.5 apiece, isn’t it? Good grief.
The Marine Corps has been especially over-represented, given its relative size, with the result that those guys re-up again and again. What consummate professionals they truly are.
Bring ‘em home, for godsake, and buy ‘em some Jaeger or maybe a bottle of SoDem’s friend’s favorite Scotch and make sure they’re taken care of by USDVA or else kick some civilian butt on our own turf because this place is OUR war zone, and it’s OUR turn to protect THEM. Isn’t that what you’ve been saying right along, both of you? What are you fighting each other about? Can’t you pick on Sonny or Hillary or my man Rudy or something?
Geez.
By Peter
December 17, 2007 4:39 PM | Link to this
Hey JBMLAW…….that is an interesting comment……. when was the last time a Republican Presidential candidate carried any of these states ?
“By jbmlaw
December 17, 2007 11:52 AM | Link to this
Dear Shark @ 11:10, re Joe, abortion is not a litmus test for republicans; that is the case only with democrats. Joe would not be a problem for republicans, and he improves the odds of republicans carrying NY, CT, and NJ.”
By TW
December 17, 2007 4:45 PM | Link to this
Glenn - your pixilated black and white-
By Glenn
December 17, 2007 10:52 AM | Link to this
That’s OK, TW. I don’t blame you for thinking he’s a dolt and a venal sellout. I just happen to worry about when we’re ever going to see real political guts in the White House again. I truly believe that he’s an honest man whose doing his best, just like the rest of us except PoFo, and his best is good enough for me.
Sorry if I misread.
Are you really suggesting that you set the Presidential bar with George W. Bush? Please, say it ain’t so Glenn…
By getalife
December 17, 2007 4:46 PM | Link to this
“From the Senate floor, Ted Kennedy just cut through all the crap:
The President has said that American lives will be sacrificed if Congress does not change FISA. But he has also said that he will veto any FISA bill that does not grant retro-active immunity. No immunity, no FISA bill. So if we take the President at his word, he’s willing to let Americans die to protect the phone companies.
A-freaking-men.”
By Glenn
December 17, 2007 4:53 PM | Link to this
TW, what is with you today? I am saying that George W. Bush has been, for me, a quite satisfactory President. Is that not in black and white? I don’t see, upon re-reading, any ambiguity in my phrasing—which admittedly can be a problem when the copy editor’s at the water cooler.
What does that have to do with setting a bar? Are you asking where I set the bar? Abraham Lincoln. Do you remember what they said about him, the man elected to the Oval Office with the lowest plurality in history? They said that he was knee-deep in blood. And so he was. And so he bloody well was.
By TW
December 17, 2007 4:59 PM | Link to this
Glenn - OK, so just to tie it off, you would be perfectly fine with the following bumper sticker?
GIULIANI - FOUR MORE YEARS!!!
By NeoCons are Clowns
December 17, 2007 5:02 PM | Link to this
Bush is just a puppet of the neocons, the neocons are just zionists in disguise.
By jbmlaw
December 17, 2007 5:11 PM | Link to this
Dear getalife @ 4:46, and your argument is that you will bankrupt telephone companies and allow Americans to die for the sake of plaintiffs attorneys. My brothers thank you for your support, sucker.
By jbmlaw
December 17, 2007 5:13 PM | Link to this
Dear TW @ 4:59, actually we’ll go with “W was obviously better than any democrat candidate.”
By Jackie
December 17, 2007 5:20 PM | Link to this
@Glenn
Suprising that you would advocate a position of capitulation. As for the ground forces in Iraq, many there are on their 4th tour. If we bring the ground troops home, do those on the right will surely say that is a policy of “cut-and-run” don’t you think?
By TW
December 17, 2007 5:20 PM | Link to this
jbmlaw - The wealthy and the stupid would agree with you on that - well argued.
By Glenn
December 17, 2007 5:51 PM | Link to this
Jackie, thanks for giving me a chance to clear that up, as evidently I made myself misunderstood again. I absolutely want them home when their commanders, and thereby they, say it’s time to come home. I believe that’s what the vast majority of them want, and I do not see, from my easy chair, a sufficiently compelling reason to deny them their just desserts.
If what you’re suggesting is that this leads us into a cul-de-sac, with a maxed-out and exhausted all-volunteer military, then I say, as a private citizen who cares deeply about such matters, that it’s time to ramp up the Selective Service. Under President Clinton, however, my old boss Bill Perry was at pains to follow his Chief’s orders to prepare a two-front military, and I believe that Mr. Clinton handed off to his successor Armed Forces capable of such war fighting. So I can’t help but conclude that we could scour the ports, as it were, for replacements for those personnel in Iraq who are exhausted, without having to resort to either a prematurely precipitous draw-down or to a draft.
I say this only to try to make myself clear as an idle blogger. I am always in actuality tentative on these matters; cognizant of who I am not and have not been. Therefore I defer to such as you.
TW, no, because my bumpersticker reads:
GIULIANI ‘08
EIGHT MORE YEARS OF CONSERVATISM
(WITHOUT THE COMPASSION THIS TIME)
By TW
December 17, 2007 5:55 PM | Link to this
Glenn - I expected no less. Have a great night.
By Tiny Tim
December 17, 2007 6:00 PM | Link to this
Reading the comments today makes me remember how much I hated the people in the star trek episode who were black on the left side and white on the right side of their face. I admire the people who were black on the right side, but those others were total scum, and must comprise the majority of the bloggers today.
SCUM!
JustkiddingGBUE
By getalife
December 17, 2007 6:18 PM | Link to this
For the Craig lovers on the right
Geez.
By getalife
December 17, 2007 6:23 PM | Link to this
ambulance chaser,
You should make a commercial saying “if you have used the phone call us now.
You may be part of a large settlement”.
Do you know who owns Verizon?
AT&T should have said no like the others.