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DEL.ICIO.USDon’t shift taxes, Republicans; be honest with voters
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
The Republicans who run Georgia need to be honest with us.
If they want to create a new social program — and many of them do — they should make the case, levy the taxes and appropriate the money from the general fund of the state. Simple. Easy. If it’s worth doing and if it’s a higher priority than other compelling needs, legislators should levy the taxes and do it.
Instead, House Speaker Glenn Richardson is proposing a $10 per year tax on vehicles, to go with Gov. Sonny Perdue’s proposed add-on fine for speeders, to fund a statewide trauma network. The vehicle tax would generate about $85 million while the tax on speeders would add another $8 million to $10 million annually. A trauma network would require upward of $100 million per year.
Newt Gingrich once described former U.S. Sen. Bob Dole as “tax collector for the welfare state.” With the proposals Richardson is advancing — expansion of the sales tax to services in exchange for a reduction in property taxes, and auto taxes dressed up as user fees — he is helping to create the apparatus that will enable big spenders to more efficiently and more painlessly function as tax collectors for the welfare state.
The great frustration with the new majority under the Gold Dome is that, with rare exception — tort reform and special education vouchers, for example — they are largely indistinguishable from the Democrats who preceded them. The semantics game on taxes is right out of the Democratic playbook.
A user fee is a sum charged a limited group of people for a specific service government provides for their sole benefit. The best example is fees charged golfers at state parks. Providing courses is of public recreational value to a large segment of Georgians. But most of us aren’t golfers and, therefore, those who play the courses should pay full freight. A fee that covers the full cost of maintenance and operation is warranted. And it’s legit. It’s a user fee, not a tax.
A trauma network, though, does not serve a select population — or at least not one that can be identified in advance. It can serve motorists, certainly. But it serves, too, those who fall off ladders, or suffer gunshots, stabbings, heart attacks or other traumas. A genuine user fee would be an emergency room add-on. But since the cost would likely be prohibitive, a user fee is not practical.
The consideration, then, is whether the service is so essential to the general welfare of the state that the cost should be borne by all taxpayers. That obviously is a decision that has been made — though not fully explained.
The reality is that a statewide trauma network that covers all Georgians will be an expensive proposition. If one person is entitled to trauma center access within a reasonable distance, all are.
If all Georgians benefit, all Georgians should pay. That’s a tax.
It’s absurd to consider eliminating ad valorem taxes on vehicles while in the very same session proposing to add back a $10 tax to fund the trauma network. That’s not reform. It’s tax shifting. And if politicians can justify $10 for trauma, they can justify any other sum for any other appealing cause.
What this majority really needs to do is develop an agenda based on the state’s transportation, education, medical and water objectives — and then determine priorities and funding requirements. If a tax increase is warranted — and it may be — Perdue, Richardson and Lt. Gov. Casey Cagle should make the case, and explain to Georgians what we’re getting and why the additional money is needed.
Instead, we get tax shifts and new tax targets and tax semantics.
Eliminating the property tax altogether never really had that much appeal here. Property is a form of wealth and, besides, rich Saudis shouldn’t be encouraged to buy land and sit on it for decades while it appreciates with no obligation to support local communities. But if not eliminated altogether, it’ll be back creeping higher and higher.
Creating a tax on services is a monumental step in tax policy. It opens a new vista to those who would grow government. Penny here, penny there, painlessly. No thanks.
Tell me what I’m buying and what it costs. Then levy the taxes, straight-up.
Permalink | Comments (154) | Post your comment | Categories: Column
Comments
By jbmlaw
December 11, 2007 8:05 AM | Link to this
Merry Christmas all. I am uncertain whether today’s topic is (1) corporate welfare to expand the medicrats’s income, and its twin, Republican complicity in the expansion of government, or (2) honesty in the legislative process. To the former, there is nothing wrong in our medical industry that government will not make worse. The entire problem is in the uninformed perception that the medical industry is somehow different from the food industry, the housing industry, the automobile industry, or any other industry “essential” to modern man. Every point where government intrudes into private enterprise leads to a misallocation of resources, manifest in the medical industry by runaway high (government-subsidized) costs. Surely no other industry has so much injection of government into so many points (as our friend TFTT would say, geddit?, the clever analogy to the druggies.) So, of course, our republican overlords determine all we need is more corporate welfare, to grow the industry some more. Smart, sort of like steroids for the public weal.
Of course, if presented as it is – a sop to preferred Republican contributors – additional government payments to the medical industry may be a hard sale to the public paying the bills. So we’ll conceal the cost, add new areas of taxes, persuade people this is like an insurance policy, albeit one that they would never purchase on their own so we’ll make up their minds for them.
Isn’t America great? Where else could six-figure incomeds persuade the government to put a gun to the head of the taxpayer to shake down more money? Well, other than Putin’s Russia? It would be enough to make Bourke Hickenlooper go postal.
By Aquagirl
December 11, 2007 8:19 AM | Link to this
Let me help you jbmlaw. Today’s topic is : “Jim Has Just Noticed Republicans Tax And Spend Like Democrats, While Claiming They Are Fiscal Conservatives.”
Let’s see how many other wingnuts have come to the same realization, and have the huevos to admit it.
By Shark Sammich
December 11, 2007 8:22 AM | Link to this
Careful, Jim—you’re actually sounding quite rational today.
I expect the usual band of lizard-brains will tell you that taxation is confiscation, and that if we only adopted the magic-bean approach of (fill in with crackpot tax scheme du jour) everything would be lollipops and ponies.
By Mid-South Philosopher
December 11, 2007 8:30 AM | Link to this
Good morning, Jim.
Your column this morning is one of the most sensible appraisals of what is going on with respect to taxes here in Georgia. Our politicians, lacking the guts to face our state challenges head-on, are failing to make the hard decisions we elected them to make. As a consequence, they are giving us the soft-shoe and slight-of-hand performances.
Of course, the preponderance of that august body…the General Assembly…has intelligence quotients equal to or slightly less than their chronological age. The Governor is very much *the lost ball in high grass.” The only people dumber are we who elected them!
I think government, at all levels, has become inept. It has become a giant, self-perpetuating paramecium consuming the resources and treasure of the citizens. By and large, it is non-responsive to the people except when they band together, either in numbers or resources, to the extent that the power or the continuance of the beast is threatened.
Quite honestly, it may be time to exercise fourth “Right” enumerated in the Declaration of Independence!
By Not Democrat, and not Republican
December 11, 2007 9:04 AM | Link to this
Is it fair to say that Republicans have lost their fiscal way? Transportation is probably the biggest problem we have in Metro Atlanta, and there is no one under the Gold Dome, with the (fill in the blank) to stand up and do something about it. With out of wack programs, such as making Georgia a fishing and retirement haven, everyone in the General Assembly either has their head stuck up their (fill in the blank) or just want to ignore the huge elephant in the room. MARTA is the only urban transportation system in the country that does not receive any state funds. Why is that? You can’t build additional roads forever. What is it gonna take for this problem to be seriously addressed, new leadership perhaps? Or maybe make all this Republicans AND Democrats drive their own cars from the capital to Alpharetta every friday afternoon in rush hour? until they are ready to REPRESENT the people who elected them?? Sound like a good idea right?
As far as Grady is concerned, it is good to see the leadership out of the hands of that board, but the mission of the hospital should always remain the same. What can Republicans say now that their party controls all branches of state government, ans has nothing to show for the time they’ve been there. Do I believe Democrats could do any better, probably not. It is going to take some drastic change to get these people to put the problems of everyday working Georgians first, and not paying these corporations back for getting them elected! Right is right, and what these people are doing isn’t exactly kosher.
By The Oddball
December 11, 2007 9:13 AM | Link to this
Best column you’ve ever written, Jim. When you flesh your ideas out thoroughly and leave out the name-calling, you make good points.
By Pompano
December 11, 2007 9:18 AM | Link to this
When it comes to all of the proposals to “Save Grady”, why do all of them call for people other than those that use the hosipital to pick up the tab? I take the train into work everyday and see all of the baby-mommas heading down to Grady w/their kids. One thing they all have in common is that they’re carrying the latest & greatest cell-phones. So our culture is now one where we have to maintain or cell service but have no problem stiffing the Doctor. Grady’s problem is the new definition of “Indigent” now covers able-bodied citizens that are simply to lazy or irresponsible to see to their own needs. Unfortunately, with marriage rates less than 30% for some segments of the population, this group of individuals is growing faster than those of us asked to foot the bills.
By ron
December 11, 2007 9:22 AM | Link to this
Jim,What’s wrong?Everyone likes you today.Republicans raising taxes?Of course they do.Apparently they only raise the taxes on Democrats as the Repulicans nevr see a Republican increase.Remember George H.W.Bush?
By Redneck Convert
December 11, 2007 9:22 AM | Link to this
Trauma center my foot. I smell Grady and trying to make the rest of us pay for the hospitle of Those People.
In my book a fee is just a politicans way of raising taxes while they are claiming to hold down taxes. I got a buddy in Roswell that says they are trying to make a “stormwater utility fee” to suit the tree-huggers that want to make people pay by how much roof and driveway they have. They are too chicken to raise taxes to pay for it so they want to add it to the water bill and then tell people they held taxes down. When all along they are bringing in more money from taxes on account of new property and getting this stormwater utility fee to boot.
You got to watch these politicans real close or they will be in your billfold fast. Ain’t but one thing that scares us godly Republicans more than death. Taxes. You can tell a fine Republican he’s going to die in two months and he won’t blink a eye. But tell him his taxes is going up and he will scream and yell and pitch a fit like a two year old in a store that didn’t get something he wanted. Well, I’m proud to say I’m against all taxes.
I’m sort of driving with one eye on the rear view mirror today. Ever since that guy yesterday said I was going to be 6 feet under if I didn’t change my ways. Its bad enough Sister Dusty and this Captain guy and TFTT make fun of me and call me all kind of names. Now a bunch of libruls is on the warpath against me and want to do me in. You got to be brave to stand your ground as a good GA Republican, but I reckon there ain’t no point in telling everybody I’m Redneck Convert and come on and get me. So I’ll just drive like the drunk that always goes 35 mph and maybe no one will notice. Being a GA Republican is something to be proud of but it ain’t worth dying for. The libruls sure got a burr under their saddle after 7 yrs. of My President.
Have a good day everybody.
By The Oddball
December 11, 2007 9:22 AM | Link to this
One more thing.
Before you set the current leaders of the General Assembly loose to overhaul the tax laws, remember that these are the same clowns who wrote the “tort reform” and “sex offender residency” laws, both of which were (a) immediately hijacked by special interest groups, and (b) so badly written that the courts are throwing them out piece by piece. Regardless of the policy choices that will be made, these people simply are not competent at writing laws. Lord alone knows what we’ll end up with if they start making major structural alterations to the tax code.
By Phil o sopher
December 11, 2007 9:26 AM | Link to this
Well, at least we’re getting closer to dealing with the issues that I had been led to believe were the tasks that politicians were paid for. Anyway, let’s be honest with each other since politicians can’t be - How would they ever get re-elected?
The first step in any effort to initiate meaningful change is what? All together now class. Admit that there is a problem. We will not accept the phrase “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”. What this phrase really means is that the person saying it is just fine with things the way they are.
Well, identifying the first problem is the simple part in this situation - Too Much Government, at all levels. How do you address this first problem? Maybe study the data, stratify it, analyze it. With the age of the Internet, perhaps a good start would be to use those sunshine laws to their fullest extent. Our county commissioners, for example, like to publish meeting minutes where they yap about how they’re paying too much for one thing and not enough for another. Yet, they won’t publish the county budget along with these politically oriented minutes. There’s just no good reason to keep so much from public scrutiny. I think the public can be of great benefit in identifying such things as wasteful spending, fraudulent purchases, etc.
How about another problem to work on? What about inequality in taxes and services? Now that’s a big one. I wonder if there’s a politician out there that has done some basic analysis of the data in this case. Maybe, Mr. Richardson is on to something - even if by accident - with his talk on property taxes, etc. I’m not claiming that I think he’s right but, at least he may have made it past the first step. All together now class, what is the first step?
Of course, once these problems have been identified and their impact on our - all together now - TAXES has been measured, then they can be prioritized. What do we do next? How about determining potential solutions for the problems.
Here’s one to kick around and discuss regarding the tax inequality issue: Why not develop a flat tax on property much like what is currently used to value conservation use property. This could be a base amount that is re-evaluated yearly by the state and everyone would pay it. Hey, this may even get rid of some of the bias introduced by all those appraisers. Maybe, a market value based house tax could be added on to help balance out the impact on local services. This tax could consist of two parts - an impact fee and some fixed annual tax. Then, we could look at how sales taxes are currently distributed across the state and look for ways to eliminate the disparities that exist between those counties that managed to lure in the most business and those that did not.
Oh but I ramble. This couldn’t possibly work as long as the politicians are more interested in who has the largest dangling - participle?
By Go Fish
December 11, 2007 9:30 AM | Link to this
MR. Wooten,
First, thank you for being one of the very few with the AJC to have the courage to allow comments posted with your columns. Obviously the GREAT tax opponents have spun their special interest enough to basically kill it. That’s sad. I was hoping we could have been bold enough to eliminate at least one whole class of taxes. But no those special interest groups won the day. As far as your concern about the Saudis, well we could have charged them based on whether on not they were a citizen of the State of Georgia. After all if you’re not a citizen you should pay for state services. Remember businesses do not pay taxes. Those are passed on to the consumer so in effect consumers are paying every tax in the form of prices on goods which is the ultimate hidden tax.
By Dennis
December 11, 2007 9:31 AM | Link to this
Mr. Wooten writes, “Tell me what I’m buying and what it costs. Then levy the taxes, straight-up.”
In time to come, Mr. Wooten, your children and grandchildren now own an unnecessaary war in Iraq. The costs and “straight-up” taxes are still to be determined.
In the meantime, remember, you are the one who bought it.
As to the costs of a trauma center, I’m reminded of when a tightwad farmer near here objected to the salery of an emergency ambulance personnel as being “too high”.
But I’ll bet he didn’t think that when he had a heart attack and those same people stablized him and took him to the emergency room.
And why you singled out the Saudis for buying property and sitting on it as an investment, I don’t know. But I know American real estate corporations do the same thing. And while the values of the property are going up they don’t contribute to the community either.
The financial hole that the Republicans have dug for the United States for the past seven years beats anything (make that everything) the “tax and spend” Democrats have ever done.
You don’t have to be a blind conservative not to see it, just an ignorant one to deny it.
By thogwummpy
December 11, 2007 9:38 AM | Link to this
Every time I hear a Neo-lib yap that “corporations should pay more taxes” (corporations automatically imbed taxes into their price structure, so every new tax is a tax ultimately consumers pay); or the rich don’t pay their fair share (they pay MORE than you or I in every respect), or that tax cuts caused debt (tax cuts stimulated the economy, and now we have RECORD HIGH tax revenue…Congressional Budget Office numbers, not mine)—-I’m reminded that Lefties slept through high school civics, and never have taken Macro-Economics 101. Taxes by definition ARE confiscatory—-and every pea wit that uses taxes to trot out some creaky obsolete 19th century class-friction morality play, should have their right to vote revoked.
By zeke
December 11, 2007 9:38 AM | Link to this
Any tax is too much! No government regardless of the “need” should be allowed to tax it’s citizens to provide a service for less than the whole population! Add on taxes, property and ad valorem are examples, are not consistent with our Constitution and national ideal of private ownership! And constantly adding taxes to items like, prepared foods, accomodations, car rental, marta and others should be outlawed as non American socialist confiscation of wealth from the successful in this country to redistribute to the less successful or those who just have their hand out and do not contribute to society! And, the states buying up property to conserve it or prevent development is absurd! One of the main tennants of this country is private, not public, ownership of property! The feds and states already own way too much property and should be prevented from acquiring any more at the expense of the taxpayers! The aptly named “FAIR TAX” is THE solution to these problems! A percentage tax on all NEW goods and services at the retail level based on current percentage that it would take to offset the current expenditures of government! That percentage cannot change, and, govenments would have to operate within the boundaries of that tax with NO DEFICIT SPENDING WHAT SO EVER! The only exception would be for national defense and the military only in case of a major war! We now waste over 2/3 of our national budget on social programs, welfare and other needless mandates! How much further can we move toward socialism without becoming the old soviet union, china or cuba? The liberals, socialist and communists, including the democrats, so called civil rights activists, the aclu, the sierra club, and other socials activist groups cannot wait to rush us headlong down that path of socialism and loss of freedom!!!!
By Shark Sammich
December 11, 2007 9:46 AM | Link to this
Ah, I knew we’d get the “Rich people pay MORE than their fair share” meme from a lizard brain before 10am!
Well played, thogwummpy!
So what kind of PoS beater-car you got that bears your “FairTax” sticker, anyways? I always get a kick out of those.
By Captain Freedom
December 11, 2007 9:47 AM | Link to this
THE Captain was going to post a remark, but sees that Zeke has the bat$hit crazy angle covered today. (Is it a stretch to think that Zeke might also adore DOCTOR Ron Paul?) Thus, with the loony fringe of True Belief well represented, THE Captain shall take a day to bask in the luxury of His wealth and wisdom.
A free word of advice, Zeke, from an experienced Keyboard Kommando. Wipe your keyboard with a clean, lint-free cloth from time to time. Otherwise your spittle foam will clog the mechanism.
By Glenn
December 11, 2007 9:47 AM | Link to this
Not Dem & Not Rep,
Yes, it is indeed fair to say that Republicans have lost their fiscal way. And you may be the first non-Republican so to say.
Your mentioning their waywardness opens the interesting prospect of a comprehensive statement of that problem, the better to address it. I believe that some recent books have described the extent of fiscal liberality on Bush’s watch, so maybe those texts make good starters.
Jim’s done another fine job of capturing a complex story with consistently accessible language. What’s more, a necessarily nuanced description of the reasons for the GA GOP’s fiscal pusilanimity would be a still greater journalistic challenge. It’s not enough to say that the Party simply lacks a Reagan.
Why does it lack a Reagan?
Why does it insist upon aping the Democrats?
Why does it accept, as Nixon fatally did, the rules as received?
Are Republicans incapable of conceiving of government in other than essentially liberal terms?
What role Mephistopheles?
For me the symptom to watch is the GOP approach to a general tax on services. Reagan by now would have thrown his body across that path, in defense of the beautiful status quo: government funded by shrinking sources of revenue.
By The Oddball
December 11, 2007 10:00 AM | Link to this
Why are you people so enamoured of Ronald Reagan? The man never once proposed a balanced budget, and the national debt went ballistic on his watch. He bought votes with tax cuts and then stuck us with the check. As far as fiscal policy goes, the Reagan years were not the “golden age” — they were the years when the Republican Party began to lose it’s fiscal way.
By Anonymous
December 11, 2007 10:12 AM | Link to this
Don’t start on that path, Oddball… you’ll find people here who honestly believe that supply-side economics SUCCEEDED.
And that Mister Rogers shot JFK, while you’re at it.
By @@
December 11, 2007 10:25 AM | Link to this
Although there’s no humor in today’s column, it’s hard not to laugh because this “tax-shift” sham is the same kind of crap that has been served up by Democrats for years and those who support them say….”Oooooo it’s so good!” while conservatives have always exclaimed “WTH is that you just put on my plate — I’m not eating that!”
So let me see if I’ve got this Republican turned Democrat tax scheme right…
I’ll be driving the same ten-year old clunker at an additional cost of $10.00 only to have it disappear into a government pothole?
Needless to say I’ll be sticking with the party that’s been saying….Hellooooooo is anybody up there? It’s getting cold and dark in this government stinkhole.
By Glenn
December 11, 2007 10:33 AM | Link to this
Oddball,
Notwithstanding your British spelling, I’m afraid you misconstrue Reagan. He’d meant to overspend both the Soviets and the Democrats. You know how the first play worked.
As to the second, his Budget Director David Stockman later fessed up: the idea was to put the federal government so deeply into a fiscal hole that successor Democrats and GOP spendthrifts would have no option but to “shrink” government. The vision was vast, the execution, brutally simple.
Vintage Reagan. He never lost his Jeffersonian suspicion of government, precisely the aspect lacking from the GOP skyboxes of the moment.
By Shark Sammich
December 11, 2007 10:39 AM | Link to this
Oddball, the answer to “Why are you people so enamoured of Ronald Reagan?” I think, is rather simple.
He’s the only American hero the right wing has, really. They can’t say bad things about him, or else they’d have nobody; at least not anyone within living memory. Who of the Republican persuasion can they point to?
Ike, maybe? (But then we get to haul out his various speeches when Ike sounds farther to the left than any Dem running today…)
By deegee
December 11, 2007 10:46 AM | Link to this
Why would a state like Georgia see any benefit in taxing its citizens in order to provide a sophisticated type of medical trauma network that could potentially attract talented professionals to the state who would enjoy participating in something worthwhile? That’s a stupid idea. I’m much happier knowing that my tax dollars are going to promote fishing out of what is rapidly becoming a mudhole.
By Adam
December 11, 2007 10:50 AM | Link to this
Politicians, Rep or Dem, have only ONE objective. Reelection! They are only interested in how they are portrayed in the media and certainly don’t want to appear as some Scrooge taking away the goodies. So we get endless increases in the reach of government into all sorts of areas they have no responsibility being involved in. Whenever a Katie Couric wannabe appears on the local news with some heartbreaking story about a defective baby stroller, the politicians jump across each other in an effort to show their “concern” and launch a new government program dedicated to “stricter baby stroller standards.” There is no end to their efforts to shape their media image for the next election.
I’m afraid we have gone beyond the point of no return regarding larger and more intrusive government. Self reliance and personal responsibility are unfortunately traits of the past. Nanny government is here to stay and grow. The politicians aren’t wondering how to reign it in, they’re only wondering how to hide the cost while pandering to the demands of the whiners demanding to be served with more goodies.
By Dennis
December 11, 2007 10:52 AM | Link to this
By The Oddball December 11, 2007 10:00 AM “Why are you people so enamoured of Ronald Reagan? The man never once proposed a balanced budget, and the national debt went ballistic on his watch. He bought votes with tax cuts and then stuck us with the check. As far as fiscal policy goes, the Reagan years were not the “golden age” — they were the years when the Republican Party began to lose it’s fiscal way.”
Everyone of these “believers” still think Reagan GAVE “THEM” tax breaks.
You don’t have to be a blind conservative not to see it, just an ignorant one to deny it.
By Camus
December 11, 2007 11:04 AM | Link to this
Any honest assessment of the imact the Reagan tax “cuts” had on the average middle-class taxpayer would admit that the increase in FICA and Medicaid taxes he implemented far outstrip any reduction in the income tax this group may have realized.
So you see, Jim, the taxation slight of hand was happily practiced by St Ronnie as well. But don’t let the facts get in the way of a good polemic.
By Aquagirl
December 11, 2007 11:06 AM | Link to this
deegee, don’t forget we can more effectively recruit cops and firefighters the same way. When they’re severely injured protecting us, we can rush them to Lanier and hand them a fishing rod.
Seriously, how can someone be taken seriously when you publicly admit voting Republican in the last election? You elected G. W. “Mission Accomplished” Bush and Sonny “Fish Georgia’s Mud Flats” Perdue.
Next election we’ll see Bozo the Clown on the ballot with an (R) next to his name. It would raise the collective Republican IQ a few points.
By Glenn
December 11, 2007 11:15 AM | Link to this
Yes, Ike. Also Abraham Lincoln, William Seward, Sam Houston, Ulysses Grant, Theodore Roosevelt, William H. Taft, Herbert Hoover, Earl Warren, Leo Strauss, Barry Goldwater, Bill Casey, Bob Dole, and a host of journalists and commentators.
So have at this list of flawed people, each of whom was heroic in his own way. The same could be done with any list of Democrats. Once again it’s the categorical treatment which is in error. Republicans often draw inspiration from non-Republicans. Churchill looms in this regard. Reagan himself conspicuously admired FDR.
Does it matter that Eli Parker and O.O. Howard and Frederick Douglass and most of the founding American conservationists were Republican? To me, not.
By RealRep
December 11, 2007 11:25 AM | Link to this
Mr. Wooten -
Mike’s with you 100%!
Mike welcomes with open arms the Giuliani and Romney defectors.
A vote against Mike is a vote for Hillary.
Huckabee ‘08
By time for the INSTANT DEATH of ALL yellowbellied LIBERAL VERMIN
December 11, 2007 11:29 AM | Link to this
The sad yellowbellied homosexual enemas inbred redneKKK turd and Lance Korporal Syphilis are still infesting this blog with their self absorbed witless queeralicious cut and run puke!! These verminous human scum are as worthless as the resident paranoid schizo, the ever vainglorious abortion bucket escapee aborted shrivelled foreskin which pukes up its execrable rabidly unfunny putrid puke as if its psychotic puke is robotically puked up by anally obsessive putrid pukes proud of their unhinged puke making puke!!
ALL the leftist USAF targets on here need to STFU!!! especially the treasonous maggot ridden greasy Cuban rent boy getaturd!!
Thankfully the mental health authorities in VT have done their job and ensured the sick child rapist redneKKKs NAMBLA has been dragged off the streets and cyber space for good. Nice also to see the permanent demise (on here at least) of the turgid bi-polar liar the sullen black racist ho crackpipe debbieturd. Doubtless its failed to get bail this month and is quietly quivering in fear of its annual STD test results whilst hiding from its usual oil slick lookalike MS13 greaseball gangbanger punters.
Funny how the mouthy venal narcissistic shamelessly HYPOCRITICAL eco whacko nutter the alBOre’s worthless cringe making nobel ceremony was hilariously virtually ignored by even the fawning party of leftist hate media. ALL eco whackos and their pinko commie creep ilk should be fed to Hizbollocks in Beirut and/or HAMarse in Gaza. This would instantly prevent over 50% of the USA’s noise pollution, over 75% of the televisual pollution and nearly 95% of the nation’s non-agricultural methane production.
The human scum VIck got off lightly yesterday!! Should have been the full five years inside!!
Can someone please explain to me - using credible, irrefutable logic - why every DAMN time something nasty/unpleasant happens to some church group or religious types it is by the grace of god that it wasn’t anyworse than it was??? How anyone can moronically and emptily assert it was just the grace of god that prevented a much worse massacre etc!! Surely its reasonable enough to suggest, given the bleating cited above that god was perfectly happy?? to have a few of his bleating sheep slaughtered in CO over the weekend by some embittered deranged religious nutter hell (deliberate use of sardonic pun here) bent on some sick twisted revenge!! Otherwise why didn’t s/he/it stop any of it???
Of course its all bollocks!! The church security guard who shot the murderous turd simply did so NOT because of god but because being armed she was able and brave enough to prevent far more pointless loss of life!! END OF!!
By TW
December 11, 2007 11:36 AM | Link to this
tftt- Many thanks for the honest face you put on the Republiqaeda party each time you post.
By Heywood Jablome
December 11, 2007 11:40 AM | Link to this
Here comes RealRep again in his vainglorious attempt at winning the wingnut hordes over to Mike Huckleberry, coddler of homicidal rapists and friend of anti-science Creationist lunatics everywhere.
Hey, why not? A televangelist for president, someone who believes every word in the Bible is literally true (even the parts that contradict other parts…it’s all a miracle!!). And here I thought you wingnuts didn’t like having ill-bred Arkansas hillbillies in the White House.
C’mon TFTT. Your wingnut pals want to run a nutjob Christianist for President. Tell us how ya feel about it.
And while you’re at it….
— Heywood Jablome
By CLAX
December 11, 2007 11:56 AM | Link to this
Jim,,,,Jim,,,,,Wake Up Jim!
It’s all been a bad dream. All this time you thought Republicans like you had all the answers and could do no wrong. Now look! You’ve finally realized all that rhetoric you’ve been stuffing in your columns about Democrats all these years also applies to your inbred Republican, party-switching pals in the legislature! Whew! What a shock that must’ve been!!!!
CLAX
By CLAX
December 11, 2007 11:56 AM | Link to this
Jim,,,,Jim,,,,,Wake Up Jim!
It’s all been a bad dream. All this time you thought Republicans like you had all the answers and could do no wrong. Now look! You’ve finally realized all that rhetoric you’ve been stuffing in your columns about Democrats all these years also applies to your inbred Republican, party-switching pals in the legislature! Whew! What a shock that must’ve been!!!!
CLAX
By Stevie Nix
December 11, 2007 11:59 AM | Link to this
Hey, dimwad, we get the bit. It was real funny the first 90 times, now it’s still real funny, and we’re all impressed with your blogging ability. Here’s a cookie. Now sit on an air hose.
Moron.
CNN just reported that a baby has been born with a lit cigar in it’s mouth. There’s a video to prove it. It shows the baby during birth, head first delivery, and there’s the cigar, and the baby takes the cigar out of it’s mouth, before the umbilical chord is severed and says, “Shaddap!”
This kid’s gonna take over the world.
By Suchhma Deek
December 11, 2007 12:06 PM | Link to this
That cigar gag just never gets old.
By Stevie Nix
December 11, 2007 12:12 PM | Link to this
When Huckabee was axed about the baby born with the lit cigar in it’s mouth, he said, “I didn’t know they allowed smoking in delivery rooms. The Baby Jesus, of course, was born with the Patch.”
Romney said, “I would never criticize a cigar smoker, or a cigarette smoker, or any smoke of any kind. To each his own smoke. I smoke the brand of my four fathers.”
Hillary said, “The video is obviously a you tube fake. Get real and get lost, you total loser idiots. We need healthcare, we need lower taxes, we need to end the war.”
By jbmlaw
December 11, 2007 12:15 PM | Link to this
Poor oddball @ 10:00 – the “Reagan envy” is palpable. You can understand his lament – if Ted Kennedy was the most admirable leader your party had produced in 75 years, you would envy Republicans their Reagan also. Too bad the democrats abandoned such honorable men as Joe Lieberman and Zell Miller – they coulda been contenders.
Dear Jabber @ 11:40, I fear you raise my own complaint. Although the leftist Huckabee is my sixth-favorite choice among Republicans, I suppose I would still rank him even with the best of the Democrats, Joe Biden.
By Glenn
December 11, 2007 12:31 PM | Link to this
A vote for Mike is a vote for statistical Christianity!
Rudy in ‘08!
By Glenn
December 11, 2007 12:40 PM | Link to this
If Republicans have “Reagan envy”, then what do Democrats have?
“Jimmy Pity”?
By Curious Observer
December 11, 2007 12:47 PM | Link to this
Rethuglicons,
Better hope Huckabee doesn’t win the nomination. He’s a 20-point underdog to any top-tier Democrat—thus the Democratic silence on him. McCain is your best bet, but you purists will reject him because of his stand on immigration. I love the way you allow the evangelicals to shaft you.
By BS Aplenty
December 11, 2007 12:49 PM | Link to this
jmblaw & TFTT -
Gentlemen, I am truly amazed at your gifts & skills. You’ve clearly brought your “A” games today.
By Glenn
December 11, 2007 1:07 PM | Link to this
tftt, an inside-the-family disagreement: your judgment of the scouring of the temple by the pistol-packing security guard amounts to magical thinking. To agree with your analysis one would have to pretend either:
a) that the shooter did not say that a voice she understood as God’s instructed her to go to that place armed; or else
b) that she is lying, in which case
c) there is at least one likelier explanation for the woman’s having arrived at that place at that hour with her handgun.
The razorlike explanation is simply that she is telling the truth, that she saved the lives she saved in conscious awareness of an extraordinary inner directive.
Stranger things have happened, even hereabouts. Consider the Atlantan who turned her armed captor into a new believer who turned himself in.
“Truly it is the work of the Lord, and marvelous in our eyes.”
By getalife
December 11, 2007 1:26 PM | Link to this
gop raising taxes?
My goodmess, the disgruntled wingnut went on a shooting spree claiming wingnuts created all the problems in the world.
Good thing that body guard was there with a gun.
Told ya they are dangerous.
Geez.
By Will S
December 11, 2007 1:30 PM | Link to this
We are going to have to raise taxes. We are going to need a billion dollars (yes, with a “b”) in order to continue the harassment of the people on Georgia’s Sex Offender Registry. Mind you, we need very little money to actually try to reduce the occurrence of sexual offending because we are spending next to nothing on that. But we need an obscene amount just to retroactively harass the people on our Registry for no benefit in return. People who actually pay taxes (the minority of us) ought be outraged and toss the bum legislators. I guess the rest of you can keep screaming for more government.
By Glenn
December 11, 2007 1:36 PM | Link to this
getalife, she wasn’t “there with a gun”; she was doing her job elsewhere when the gunman showed up “there” heavily armed, and something told her she was in the wrong place, so she broke off her rounds and went “there”, to the besieged sanctuary, in spite of her duties elsewhere.
That’s the story, anyway.
By Jackie
December 11, 2007 1:37 PM | Link to this
Taxes are soon to become irrelevant because American blood and treasure is being squandered in Iraq. It appears that those same treasures are to be spent in our attempt at “bring Iran into compliance.” The David Stockman concept is in full effect here; spend all the money on things that do not add to our prosperity so that political control can be exercised over the population because of the financial bind they have placed us. How many of us have the $20,000 owed to the Federal government for the money borrowed for the Iraq war? The $20,000 is for every man, woman and child in this country. It was just reported that Trent Lott was joining the retired Sen from LA to form a consulting firm to lobby on behalf of the medical industry. He retired before the new law took effect that would have prevented him from forming such a partnership that lobbies our government. These folks are not concerned about the public, only their continued financial rape of the citizens.
By Jackie
December 11, 2007 1:42 PM | Link to this
News item just released from the Pentagon reports that more than 3,700 troops have been killed and more than 28,000 have been seriously wounded in Iraq. More blood, more treasure squandered. When will the criminals in the White House be frog-marched out?
By Gee Dubya
December 11, 2007 1:44 PM | Link to this
You know, I just don’t think about him that much anymore.
By Phil o sopher
December 11, 2007 1:51 PM | Link to this
Do you feel the power?
CAN you FEEL the POWER?
YES I FEEL the POWER! I AM SENATORMAN!
To which the president replied: Shut up. Pipsqueak. Or, was that the governor?
By time for the INSTANT DEATH of ALL yellowbellied LIBERAL VERMIN
December 11, 2007 2:00 PM | Link to this
Glenn
I take your point about the familial ructions in this instance. But your gentle, amiable and as usual respectful dissembling (small very amiable grin) doesn’t actually invalidate my bigger picture “logic” which is infinitely and instantly transferrable to any similar incident/occurence where the ‘but for the grace of god’ assertions are slavishly trotted out. One example that has stayed with yours truly for many years is logically IRREFUTABLE. After a major fire at York Minster - the C of E’s second most important cathedral - the Guardian reading lefty clergy trotted out the same ridiculously pious bollocks. How gracious of god to have ensured the damage was only such and such and not much worse. Surely if god gave a toss then s/he/it would have ensured the fire burned down/damaged something at least as equally deserving - like a local mosque or the local Labour party offices or something else - anything else … IF NOT actually having prevented the fire - rather than damage such an ‘important’ organised religion structure.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to credibly and IRREFUTABLY ascribe some act/thought etc to some kind of deity. Fideism is the $200 word for it!!
The self programming we all choose - or far worse have inflicted on us when young or vulnerable and our critical factors are either very juvenile/undeveloped or when we’re desperately seeking some kind of magickal security blanket/dogma to help us ‘walk the line’ through what is sadly increasingly a leftist infested moral relativist cesspit is what’s responsible for such fixed responses. Ultimately a reasonably educated leftist hating right wing agnostic position is easily the most satisfying, credible and intellectually/morally sustainable world view!! … huge grin
To the resident leftist (almost) human leeming scum who have the ritalin fuelled bleedin’ cheek to question/impugn my proud right wing secular views … GFY!!!
Huckabee is a sad smug superstitious dishonest inveterate tax hiking twonk!!! Rudy - when he finally gets it re: the mincing poofs/queers/f aggots/di kes and really cracks down on the vile venal infestation of illegal grasping leeches will make a fine President!!
By Will S
December 11, 2007 2:11 PM | Link to this
We are going to have to raise taxes. We are going to need a billion dollars (yes, with a “b”) in order to continue the harassment of the people on Georgia’s Sex Offender Registry. Mind you, we need very little money to actually try to reduce the occurrence of sexual offending because we are spending next to nothing on that. But we need an obscene amount just to retroactively harass the people on our Registry for no benefit in return. People who actually pay taxes (the minority of us) ought be outraged and toss the bum legislators. I guess the rest of you can keep screaming for more government.
By Rudy G
December 11, 2007 2:11 PM | Link to this
I’ll make a well-dressed President, won’t I?
By RealRep
December 11, 2007 2:17 PM | Link to this
No self-respecting Republican will vote for Giuliani. The GOP has an opportuntiy to rid itself of the neocon element that has nearly destroyed it.
Bring back conservatism. Bring back morality.
Huckabee ‘08
By Phil o sopher
December 11, 2007 2:21 PM | Link to this
There are good reasons for separation of church and state:
I - I don’t need a religious zealot telling me how to live
R - Republicans should know better
A - All of the prayers (or bombs) in the world won’t change some people’s minds
N - No one should tell us how to live our lives as long as we extend the same courtesy
By getalife
December 11, 2007 2:22 PM | Link to this
“Mike Huckabee: Women Should Submit To Their Husbands”
Old school wingnut.
What say you wingnut women?
By jbmlaw
December 11, 2007 2:22 PM | Link to this
Dear Jackie @ 1:42, “When will the criminals in the White House be frog-marched out?” Answer, long before the leftists get serious about the war against terrorists. The leftists have no plan to make the world safe, only a plan to whine about the real men (and women) actually doing something about it. Give Thanks to a soldier or sailor or grunt today, for your freedom.
By BS Aplenty
December 11, 2007 2:22 PM | Link to this
Glenn
Nice logical structure, but I think a flawed premise. The all “inner directive(s)” = “god speaking” postulate is not universally accepted.
TFTT rants, I believe (pun intended), because, as decent & heroic as the female security guard is, she also had the glassy-eyed stare & vocal tenor of a hypnotized acolyte.
In her interview, a simple, “thanks to God”, without the cheerleading would have given great credibility to her claim. But the more she said, “it was God” (probably five or six times), the less I believed her.
Allah Akbar.
By Andy
December 11, 2007 2:33 PM | Link to this
While I agree with the premise of Jim’s op-ed I’ll be honest even as a conservative and a successful small business owner I could careless with what these Georgia local and state morons do at this point.
Between the rampant corruption and reverse racism found throughout the City of Atlanta government coupled with the other metro area disasters such as the lack of planning, residential and condo overbuilding, the traffic headaches and now every CEO in the country knowing ATL/GA never had a water plan that looked more than 1 week ahead at any given time the Metro area’s heyday has already come and is currently leaving.
While this is great for surrounding states particularly the I-85 corridor in SC and NC it’s all the more reason to ride the first wave out of here along with the other intelligent people.
If ATL weren’t a has-been the Fortune 1000 wouldn’t be leaving as they have been over the last 5 years.
Only the idiots will ride this ship to the bottom of ocean along with captain.
By Steve
December 11, 2007 2:36 PM | Link to this
When will the Bible bred ignoramuses here in Georgia wake up and start electing some sensible politicians (if that’s possible?)
By time for the INSTANT DEATH of ALL yellowbellied LIBERAL VERMIN
December 11, 2007 2:39 PM | Link to this
Well said BS … I was quite tempted to suggest the guard was fulminating like a Moonie … but that analogy might not have been inwardly digested by some of the younger less well read (snigger) folks on here!!
Ultimately I could care less wot folks believe - cos it aint no skin off my nose - but I always enjoy challenging wot they do!! If U start from a flawed, or in this case deeply flawed prem,ise then any assertions that attempt to bolster such flawed premises are doomed - like the gleeful ambulance chasing, wife’s cancer exploiting suddenly far left scumbag Edwards - to fail!!
BTW that should be …”resident leftist (almost) human lemming scum”
sorry for any mass confusion, like wot dey have in San Fran Sicko on Fathers Day or Veterans Day (gedditt??)
By Bunny
December 11, 2007 2:48 PM | Link to this
Holy, moly, not only is Jim making sense today, but Time for whatever blasts the ridiculously religious! I must be dreaming!
By Andy
December 11, 2007 2:49 PM | Link to this
One more thing, look who the elimination of property taxes really caters to: the retirees.
Between the upcoming wave of retiring boomers and Florida losing countless retirees everyday as result of rising property taxes and insurance what better way to attract these retirees to Georgia who are currently moving to NC and TN?
Afterall the typical county SPLOST ballot in Georgia is held during an ‘off’ election when the tyical electorate won’t show but they know the retirees will esecially if they think that extra penny will save them $50 per year in property taxes.
I can see the 2009 national advertising campaign now:
Georgia: God’s new waiting room.
By jbmlaw
December 11, 2007 2:57 PM | Link to this
Dear RelRep the Jew-baiter @ 2:17, you don’t even know what a neoconservative believes, or perhaps you are merely hostile to the concepts of freedom and brotherhood. Or perhaps you are faithful to the origin of Buchanan’s epithet?
Dear Phil @ 2:21, your logical flaw is where you say, “All of the prayers (or bombs) in the world won’t change some people’s minds.” Our intention is not to change minds with bombs, it is to bomb those who don’t change their minds about killing Americans. I understand it is one of your religious convictions that Islamists are just like you, and there is some basis for that belief, but I think it fundamentally misguided.
By jbmlaw
December 11, 2007 3:01 PM | Link to this
Dear Steve @ 2:36, not going to happen until the democrats nominate at one person with joy in his heart. So long as the democrats all spew epithets and hatred, the Republicans will continue to win with the worst possible nominees. Why should they change what works?
By Phil o sopher
December 11, 2007 3:29 PM | Link to this
Dear jbmlaw, Do you think that Israel will be swayed by Iran’s bombs? There are many ways to view things. Yours is just one.
By Bunny
December 11, 2007 3:32 PM | Link to this
Kuchinich has joy in his heart.
By Glenn
December 11, 2007 3:34 PM | Link to this
BS Aplenty, she evidently is trying to be faithful to the religious charge to credit God for the things that are of God. Her explanation is widely unacceptable, it’s true. What is the more acceptable explanation for such strange events?
And yes, Abba is Akbar!
And the Walrus was Paul.
Phil o sopher, odd that your four-point justification for church/state separation fails to contemplate governmental trammeling of religion, for it was that prospect, and not your far-fetched one, which moved the Constitutional Framers.
tftt, as to the twisted if, I grant you, prevalent notion of God limiting His violence, you may know the theological premise that the bad cannot derive from the Good. Moreover, in the secular fields of religious studies and literary theory there are the Girardians, who endeavor to discern, in cultural texts, human violence from sacred violence. They hold, as incidentally many rabbis have done through the ages, that the former category is often disguised by those culpable as violence originating in God. They further hold that divine violence, when its depictions are unmasked, invariably consists of God abandoning humans to their own stubborn violence.
The relationship of violence to Christianity is the hottest thing going in Biblical theology.
By Jackie
December 11, 2007 3:42 PM | Link to this
@jbmlaw at 2:22pm
Sir, you seem to have confused the issue. The criminals in the White House are the ones that are causing our military grief. The military has performed admirably, in the face of incompetent leadership. The Islamic terrorist, as you call them, are in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Please make a logical, rational and plausible supportive statement as to why our military is involved in Iraq. I am sure you will have an answer that is supportive of the criminals.
By GayGreyGeek
December 11, 2007 3:51 PM | Link to this
Phil @ 3:29 - What you have left to learn is that, in jmblawLand, there is One And Only ONE possible to view things, and all other possible perspectives can be dismissed as “islamofascist” or “Jew-baiting”.
Especially those perspectives that might make a normal adult stop and think for a moment.
By Glenn
December 11, 2007 3:51 PM | Link to this
Jackie, your position is unmistakable. But you overrun your own position when you say, as you did @ 1:42, that the troops are fighting for, and thereby perpetrating, a criminal waste of blood and treasure.
By Phil o sopher
December 11, 2007 3:51 PM | Link to this
Thank you for your commentary, Glenn. I really don’t need a history lesson though. I was merely trying to deal with the present by bringing some of the original premises forward. Now, do you really see a need for the religious to run roughshod over government, vice versa, or one theocracy over another theocracy, etc.? Who’s right? Who’s wrong? Do we just blow up the world and be done with it or just blow it up piece by piece until everyone else cries UNCLE? Please enlighten me with your line of reasoning.
By Dusty
December 11, 2007 3:57 PM | Link to this
jbmlaw@3:01
Oh, that was such a fine paragraph. “Joy in (his) heart” is such a great asset for political success (and most endeavors).
I can look at the Democratic nominees and cringe. Obama appears to have some heart but I think it is more inexperience and that little lost boy look. Democratic representatives in Congress are even more formidable. Have they ever said anything good about the war, the country, and most certinly not, our President?
Jim is talking about taxes and I am off subject. No more taxes!! No more Republicans acting like Democrats!! Now I am back on subject, sorta.
This is a happy season. I am tempted to say something nice about RedNeck and Captain but…I’ll just wait until Christmas…Maybe I will think of something by then.
By Glenn
December 11, 2007 4:04 PM | Link to this
Phil o sophist,
Since you are the sort who characterizes an historical point made in a subordinate clause as a “history lesson”; since you either cannot or will not specify in what way you are bringing which constitutionally “original premises forward”; and since your idea of a “line of reasoning” is to pose a string of absurdly exaggerated rhetorical questions, what kind of fool would I have to be to answer your question?
By Sen. Obama
December 11, 2007 4:10 PM | Link to this
Who are you calling boy, Dusty?
By Phil o sopher
December 11, 2007 4:10 PM | Link to this
You got me on that question, Glenn.
I don’t know, What type?
By Dusty
December 11, 2007 4:13 PM | Link to this
Philo 3:51
Perhaps you have not noticed.
We are not a theocracy.
There is not one sign that the “religious” are running roughshod over government.
Going to church is not running the government.
Americans are trying to keep the world from being blown up.
Americans are trying to keep ourselves from being blown up.
If you believe in the USA, you’d better start appreciating it instead of undermining it. As one who cares, I do not appreciate your anti-American efforts.
By Glenn
December 11, 2007 4:13 PM | Link to this
Dusty! Dusty!
I’m relieved that you’re here. When I wrote to you on Sunday about otherwise freethinking women who nevertheless pine for a Big Hubby government, I was summarizing Jim’s characterization from his weekend column; I wasn’t attempting to characterize you. It was my fault for using the overbroad pronoun “you” when I meant “they” or, alternatively, the hypothetical “one”.
My apologies, Dusty. I’d never presume to insult you in such a way, and would boil to oil anyone who did.
By Phil o sopher
December 11, 2007 4:15 PM | Link to this
By the way Glenn,
For your edification, it is not sophist - the appropriate form is sophist plus sorcerer
By Dusty
December 11, 2007 4:16 PM | Link to this
Sen. Obama @ 4:10
I said you had a “little boy look”. What did you want me to say? That you looked like a little girl?
By Phil o sopher
December 11, 2007 4:17 PM | Link to this
Dusty,
Let us pray that you are correct!
By Sen. Obama
December 11, 2007 4:23 PM | Link to this
Civilized society has long been onto the practice of using such code words, Dusty. Are you going to call me uppity next?
By Glenn
December 11, 2007 4:24 PM | Link to this
Phil o sopher
I kneel corrected by your sophistic casuistry.
By Dusty
December 11, 2007 4:31 PM | Link to this
Glenn@4:13
Don’t give it a thought. I threw my burka away long time ago (not that I ever had one). I don’t doubt your sincerity.
In fact, I may send you several people to boil to oil for their impertinence. Always good to have a compatriot.
By Dusty
December 11, 2007 4:35 PM | Link to this
Sen Obama @4:23
What code words? SOS or something? I won’t call you uppity unless you are elected President. If that happens, I will add disaster.
By AmVet
December 11, 2007 4:37 PM | Link to this
Wow!
Mr. Wooten, our (sometimes under rated?), (finally?) speaks (out loud?) to the painful realities.
Republican or Democratic, the spending always go up.
And in one way or another, for one cause or the other, to one person or his brother, so do the taxes.
So as my sage mother told me LONG ago, “The rich get richer and the poor get poorer.”
What an epiphany - this conservative coma…
And I (always?) thought the walrus was John. Goo goo g’joob…
By Sen. Obama
December 11, 2007 4:38 PM | Link to this
So in your opinion, Dusty, the color of my skin would make my election a disaster? Makes me wonder about the content of your character.
By Phil o sopher
December 11, 2007 4:38 PM | Link to this
Glenn,
Arise kind sir, for tis not a sleight of hand or utterance of half truth that shall lead us hence from the demise of our own crafting. Only knowledge and the hope of the wisdom it may bring will show us the true way.
By Sen Obama
December 11, 2007 4:41 PM | Link to this