Thinking Right

By Van

October 29, 2007 9:30 AM | Link to this

30 some years ago, we did have a requirement for national service, the Draft.

Same thing with different options. Maybe we can bring back some of FDR’s work programs to add to the mix.

Getting these lazy kids off their collective lard butts would be a good thing. Make men out of boys, etc.

By Anonymous

October 29, 2007 9:34 AM | Link to this

Yes, we need to bribe more young people to line up to die for a pointless cause.

C’mon, folks, this is coming from a so-called conservative? “Hand over your life to government service—sure, that’s a great idea! They can be trusted.” Let’s see if Wooten’s whistling the same tune when the Democrats take over again.

By Frank

October 29, 2007 9:39 AM | Link to this

I predicted a draft five years ago, as the nation came to grips with 911.

If it wasn’t a war with the obligatory draft before we botched Iraq, then it is now,(now that we’ve declared war on Bad Islam). Every vestige of Bad Islam needs to be wiped from the face of the earth, even if it takes a thousand years and five million men, (which it will).

Good Islam can ignore our war.

By jbmlaw

October 29, 2007 9:41 AM | Link to this

Good morning all. I oppose slavery in any form, and that includes all calls for “national service.” Nevertheless, I will support Dr. Sabato’s scheme so long as the only people caught up in its draft are those currently receiving social security. Make ‘em “give back.”

By Redneck Convert

October 29, 2007 9:43 AM | Link to this

Well, I’m all for making people do national service. It has all kinds of good in it. Say, for instance, some librul starts spouting off on this blog or in a letter to the editor. The federal guvmint could track him down and draft him. That would shut him up. I would like to see this little pipsqueak getalife in a army uniform just huffing and puffing and trying to keep up. He would turn into a godly conservative in no time.

I spent 3 yrs. in the army and it never hurt me none. It was join or get drafted back in those days. I’m just sorry I couldn’t score high enough on that test to get into the infantry. Them danged multiplying tables again. They caused me to drop out of the 5th grade and then they kept me from being a real Military Hero. The army put me in a supply tent passing out supplies to people. You don’t need to know multiplying tables to kill people. It was all just so stupid.

This time I say we don’t let the women off neither. Use to be, women was let off because people thought they was too feeble to handle a rifle and such. But I got news for you. They are the most vicious people I ever seen. I just bet, from the way she talks, somebody like Sister Dusty could wipe out a whole battalion of the enemy just by jawing at them. Wouldn’t even need a gun. She wouldn’t have to write to show how patriotic she is. She could get in a combat uniform and join the troops she says she supports. Same with @@. I bet she would love to get in combat and get all nasty with the enemy the way she does with libruls on this blog. And if we turned somebody like the missus loose on them with her frying pan when she’s good and mad, there wouldn’t be nothing left of them. You ain’t seen Death in person till you seen a 350-lb. woman stomping around with a frying pan.

But the army ain’t for everybody. Say we got somebody that’s sick in the head or maybe wired funny like TFTT. We could make him work in a hospitle emptying bed pans or something like that. That way, we could keep the gays out of the military.

Well, I got lots of beer to deliver today. The Baptists danged near cleaned out all the bars Sunday after church. Must have been some pretty dry sermons. Have a good day everybody.

By V for Vendetta

October 29, 2007 9:43 AM | Link to this

The word required completely subverts the word freedom. Think about it.

Yes, we ARE a lazy country. Yes, the judicial system is in tatters. Yes, the bi-partisan silliness has stymied our once-useful government. But requiring anything is a dangerous and volatile proposition.

By Shark Sammich

October 29, 2007 9:44 AM | Link to this

This might be a good time to point out that the worst civil insurrection ever experienced in the US was over conscription.

By jbmlaw

October 29, 2007 9:46 AM | Link to this

Lest my harsh comments be misunderstood, I also believe that military volunteers are the noblest of the noble in our country. If we impose some artificial service obligation – note that it is always imposed on the young people trying to start families and careers rather than those who have achieved same – it would pollute the integrity of those who are doing it for the right reasons. As to military service in particular, I think we should allow the market to set the rates.

By Frank

October 29, 2007 9:52 AM | Link to this

At 56, I would volunteer for active duty in the army in a nanosecond, and have the time of my life.

I think many baby boomers would do the same. Let me at ‘em. All I have to do is think of those poor people on those four planes. That’s all the motivation I need and put me down for Iraq!!!

Even though I know Iraq didn’t do it, Iraq is close enough.. Iraq will do.

Where do I sign?

By Curious Observer

October 29, 2007 9:56 AM | Link to this

Nevertheless, I will support Dr. Sabato’s scheme so long as the only people caught up in its draft are those currently receiving social security. Make ‘em “give back.”

The current recipients of social security form a group that contains more military veterans than any other societal cross-section you can name. Please list your military service history, jbmlaw, you selfish, antediluvian little twit.

By Anonymous

October 29, 2007 10:01 AM | Link to this

And yet, “just thinking” of the poor people on six continents, numbering in the billions, wasn’t enough to get you to join the Peace Corps. Interesting priorities you have.

By Artie Sammish

October 29, 2007 10:03 AM | Link to this

C’mon, Shawky, dem was bayally even N’Yoawkahs wut wuz kwozzin all da fuss back den.

By Kieran

October 29, 2007 10:06 AM | Link to this

Frank @ 9:39,

And you and my sister have been wrong every year since. My brothers and I will still keep track though, and report back on you accuracy in the coming years.

By Dusty

October 29, 2007 10:11 AM | Link to this

Jim Wooten,

I can’t quite get myself wrapped around the idea that required national service is the way towards “responsibility” or “to revitalize our Constitution and make America a fairer land”.

Somehow, I do not see the armed forces as a tool for a more “perfect union”.

I see our military forces as the protectors of our country and the purveyors of national decisions such as mammoth emergency aid or a declaration of war. Will those who do not agree with our need for protection or our national policy be changed by going into forced military service? Looking back at Viet Nam, I don’t think so.

Volunteer military service is the most patriotic and freedom-of-choice idea in our time. If Americans are not patriotic enough to fight for their country against aggressive enemies, then nothing will be revitalized.

We were tough in America’s beginning without a draft. We can be tough now. But love of country is the key to strength, not forced service.

By Shark Sammich

October 29, 2007 10:12 AM | Link to this

Artie said:

C’mon, Shawky, dem was bayally even N’Yoawkahs wut wuz kwozzin all da fuss back den.

If the Southerners had “kwozzed” a similar fuss instead of blindly believing in fighting and dying for wealthy slave-owners, I daresay we’d all have been better off.

By jbmlaw

October 29, 2007 10:16 AM | Link to this

Dear Curious @ 9:56, none, which is why I proffer my suggestion in the language I used. Or do I misread, are you advocating slavery?

By Frank

October 29, 2007 10:19 AM | Link to this

Kieran, I was talking about a draft for a war against Bad Islam, not Good Islam. that’s where you got confused. Simply learn the Good Koran and you’ll be perfect.

2 sum up: Bad Islam BAD. Good Islam GOOD. Moron blogger MORON.

By MrLiberty

October 29, 2007 10:20 AM | Link to this

Here is the full text of the 13th amendment to the Constitution (not that any of you care about the constitution anymore):

What you are talking about is involuntary servitude (slavery). There is no more need for discussion. A draft is unamerican. It is something imposed by totalitarian leaders on their subjugated servants.

By Kieran

October 29, 2007 10:23 AM | Link to this

If the Chair will recognize, I wish to associate myself with jbm’s remarks at 9:46 and Frank’s of 9:52. I’ll now yield.

And Redneck, after Name-that-President! woke up in the White House one day to discover that those nice ballet dancers the Soviets were charging petroward through Afghanistan and he called up the draft for the staffed and the distaff alike and the Supremes reversed the yinside of his Exec. Order thereby ticking off the yins at the historical peak of their self-empowerment, no $hit there I was waiting at the Post Office to sign up on the first day of the New Selective Service, only to find my adorable lefty girlfriend Nina, God bless her, barring the door with a sandwich board protesting the draft. The carsex that night was awesome. I’ve had a love/hate relationship with the American Left ever since.

By time for some decent explicit blood curdling ANALLY imagined death threats

October 29, 2007 10:24 AM | Link to this

L/Cpl Syphilis/inbred redneKKK turd is puking up its usual robotic deranged leftist/sexist/racist/bigoted hate this morning. It must have been molested again by the limp wristed Whacko Jacko look alike queer black preacher who employs it as a Sunday nite toilet cleaner at the EbeSneezer Holy Baptist/Papist/Rapist Church of Whitey Gimme Gimme All Dem Racial Spoils!! I just know that if I was ever hired to empty bed pans L/Cpl Syphilis/inbred redneKKK turd would be right behind me beggin’ and pleadin’ to drink/eat the contents - since it got diagnosed with AIDS and cancer of its blubbery queeralicious arsehole its always out hustling for free food and drink is our resident yanKKKee Bwarney Fwank queer boy victim!!

I simply cannot EVER see linguine spined yellow bellied leftist vermin serving in the army, marines or air force. Although these putrid pukes sure are brave enough - in huge RATpack numbers - to attack conservative speakers on college campuses. In fairness though the around (nationally) 5% of sullen queer pinKKKo scumbags would be very very swiftyly mincing and swishing down to the Sailor Boy recruiting offices, and lining up to having Katrina refugee Louis Vuitton hand bag fights to be sailor boys. Lustily singing Wankers Away as the Chief Petty Officer got real petty with ‘em in a bulk head bunk bed. San Fran Sicko and the f aggot ridden parts of Atlanta would immediately be all but empty of queers of national service age. Then the US Navy would really start to rival Sud AfriKa with its AIDS problems.

REALLY REALLY BAD IDEA to being back the draft for any kind of f aggots!! Don’t ask - dont tell would instantly become sign me up sweetie and lets go decorate the sphincter friendly bathhouse on the battleship pink USS Liberace.

By Dusty

October 29, 2007 10:30 AM | Link to this

OK RedNeck Convict @9:43

I admit it. You made me laugh. That line “You aint seen Death in person till you seen a 350-lb. woman stomping around with a frying pan” is a winner.

In fact, I think the military should issue frying pans to all 350 lb. women in uniform. The war would soon end. (If only Rumsfeld had known about frying pans.)

By Judy

October 29, 2007 10:31 AM | Link to this

Wake up, people. We’re not fighting for a just cause. This war is as illegal as going into Iran would be at this point. The American public is being played by the war profiteers and your children are their pawns.

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/

By Joe

October 29, 2007 10:34 AM | Link to this

This country is way too soft for that to ever happen. Our young people today will barely get off their butts to do anything, let alone do something noble and help defend their country and way of life. There are so many young men and women in this country who need some discipline and direction. The sense of entitlement in our youth makes me want to puke.

By Frank

October 29, 2007 10:36 AM | Link to this

Good one, RW/duh/andy/dusty. You trolls rock sometimes, and I want you to know that if they’d let me, I’d walk point through the streets of baghdad for your right to make sweatballs out of yourself on a blog, and be happier and more fulfilled than ever.

There has to be some vestige of al queda left, and I owe them something, a little trick I learned hunting woodchucks in New York…..great big gobs of greasy grimey gopher guts, mutilated monkey meat…etc…and RW forgot his spoon……..ew

Is a female terrorist a veiled threat?

By Bruce Wicox

October 29, 2007 10:37 AM | Link to this

A National Service program for those who drop out of school may work. But not military service, but helping rebuild our crumbling infrasturture. It would teach them several things, team work, respect and a trade.

A Military Draft is not fair, it targets the lower class, the connected skip, but not Sax our Senator he had a bad knee during Nam. Also in this and age Mommie will not let ‘Lil Johnnie’ march off to war for one man’s ego.

By JK

October 29, 2007 10:38 AM | Link to this

We have become a nation of people who consider it a right to have every law and institution shaped to our personal preferences and situation, while our responsibilities are limited to a Saturday walk (OR GOLF TOURNAMENT OR $500/PLATE DINNER AT THE CLUB) in support of some charity or cause.

Breakthrough! Glad you finally recognize that about yourself, Mr. Wooten. Congrats!

By Kieran

October 29, 2007 10:39 AM | Link to this

Frank you unbearable name-caller you, it wasn’t that to which I referred. I was teasing you about your, and my sister’s, bum draft pick. Ever since 9/11 she’s been convinced, Old Blue that she is (Berkeley ‘72), that the big Uncle is gonna make off with her boys and shave their heads. Alas the laconic spoilings wouldn’t know public service from a service station, nor their Kermit Roosevelts from their Elmos.

By Shar

October 29, 2007 10:40 AM | Link to this

Nearly every high school in the country includes compulsory community service in its graduation requirements. Although the students’ personal commitment to the chosen recipient may be dubious, I don’t know of any real objection to the requirement and its ubiquity may indicate that there is some proven benefit.

Many students find themselves at a loss when they leave high school (whether by dropping out or staying through senior year). First jobs are usually haphazard rather than career-oriented; college is frequently a default destination, taken without any clear idea of where it will lead. National service at the time of leaving high school would allow more time to mature, provide a transition between dependent and independent living, offer an opportunity for achievement and positive feedback in a non-academic setting, teach job skills and expose students to people, places and conditions they may never otherwise encounter. This in addition to the benefit to the country of their service.

The devil, of course, is always in the details and matters of funding, placement and other issues would weigh heavily on my support for such an initiative. I would not, for example, agree with Mr. Wooten’s suggestion that military service be valued over all others, as I belive that the nation needs and should value a wide range of talents and contributions. However, overall I that the idea offers promise and should be explored to see if it can be shaped into a workable program.

By the way, Shark @ 9:44, I assume that you reference the New York Draft Riots of 1863. The rioters objected not only to the draft but to the fact that the wealthy could buy their way out of it. I would think that any discussion of national service would have to be predicated on universality.

By Dennis

October 29, 2007 10:41 AM | Link to this

Mr. Wooten says, “We’ll try today. Is it possible to discuss the value of a draft, or national service in general, without making either a proxy for arguing our views on Iraq or George W. Bush?”

Well, you brought Bush and Iraq up, Mr. Wooten, and it’s obvious you don’t want to talk about failures, so, let’s not.

If it’s across the board, I might support some “universal service”, but not to the degree that those in the military get paid more than other services.

Those whom you want to serve need to eat and feed their families just like those in the military.

We don’t pay our enlisted military worth a damn anyway, and to pay less to those serving in other areas would be uncalled for.

It’s good that you don’t want to talk about the twin failures, GWB and Iraq, because the problem of getting citizens to serve the country goes far beyond those two things, namely, that the American people, and rightly so, have no confidence in their government.

AND THE WAY THAT YOU PROMOTE YOUR NEOCOSERVATIVE VIEWS IS THAT THE PEOPLE AREN’T WORTHY OF THEIR GOVERNMENT, ESPECIALLY IF THEY DON’T WALK LOCK-STEP WITH NEOCON VIEWS.

The American people know that our government/elected officials is/are corrupt - sold out to the highest bidder. The best interests of the people take second place to obscene profits for the few, and it takes a FOOL not to see it and a liar to deny it.

Even the playing field (including prosecution of our own war criminals) and most Americans will be more will to serve their country.

I have yet to see you call for that, and everyone on here knows it. And until you do, your call for some form of “universal service” for all Americans is worthless.

You don’t have to be a blind conservative not to see it, just an ignorant one to deny it.

By lovelyliz

October 29, 2007 10:41 AM | Link to this

The Draft would get all those who support the troops and support the Iraq war by putting stickers on their trucks & SUVs invested in the war.

The children of privilege won’t serve in and they won’t pay for the war. That horse is already out of the barn, but if you or your children, grandchildren actually had a stake in what goes on, you might get concerned.

By ron

October 29, 2007 10:45 AM | Link to this

I’m Ron,registered Democrat,former union member.I served my country for three years active duty in the Army.My son and his wife both served four years in the Air Force.We firmly believe that it is our duty to do so.We firmly believe that it is your duty to also serve.Everyone,without exception,that is physically and mentally capable owes this country their service.Serve voluntarily,serve involuntarily,or serve under armed guard,yourchoice,but serve you must.

By Atlanta Pearl Girl

October 29, 2007 10:46 AM | Link to this

If you are an adult and not being productive (i.e. WELFARE)…. get your butt into the military.

Atlanta Pearl Girl

By Kieran

October 29, 2007 10:49 AM | Link to this

Probably true, Sharky, and if President Lincoln had enforced conscription in a timely, stern and open manner, then perhaps the Union would’ve been preserved and slavery put down.

By Shark Sammich

October 29, 2007 10:56 AM | Link to this

Shar asks: By the way, Shark @ 9:44, I assume that you reference the New York Draft Riots of 1863.

Yep.

The rioters objected not only to the draft but to the fact that the wealthy could buy their way out of it. I would think that any discussion of national service would have to be predicated on universality.

Most certainly.

Just to add to your thoughts—those who protested the draft (and it wasn’t just in NYC) had a slogan: “Rich man’s war, poor man’s fight!”

Although I’m sure others have uttered that same phrase, in other languages, for millenia.

By No slavery

October 29, 2007 10:57 AM | Link to this

Everyone,without exception,that is physically and mentally capable owes this country their service.Serve voluntarily,serve involuntarily,or serve under armed guard,yourchoice,but serve you must.

Why? What do we owe?

By Quoterina

October 29, 2007 11:04 AM | Link to this

“While we spend $400 billion to inflict carnage upon the rest of the world, our streets are filled with the homeless veterans of previous wars. The problem with this country is it would rather create veterans than care for them. I say not another dime for the military until it provides for the people it has used as cannon fodder in the past. All recruiting offices for the armed services should be on the top floors of Veterans Administration Hospitals. All potential recruits should have to walk through the entire facility before they can sign their lives away to Uncle Sam.” —- Barry Crimmins, 2003

By Anonymous

October 29, 2007 11:05 AM | Link to this

It’s a shame it would be unconsitutional, but I’d like to see a law that instantly drafts the children or siblings of any legislator that votes for war.

THEN we’ll see how “necessary” these conflicts actually become.

By ron

October 29, 2007 11:07 AM | Link to this

No Slavery.This is a great country.You owe it to yourself to make sure it stays that way.You don’t owe anyone else.

By Dusty

October 29, 2007 11:07 AM | Link to this

Joe @ 10:34

Why don’t you look at the pictures of those who died for our country in Iraq and Afghanistan? Look at their faces. Most of them are 18-year-olds and up, young men and women, fighting for our country.

And they were VOLUNTEERS!!! Our young people are the fighters for our freedom. They don’t get much publicity like protestors but that is the “press” looking for the “excitement of mob mentality”.

Our young people are the pride of this country.

Be thankful for our military and ALL those fighting for us. They show the best of America.

By @@

October 29, 2007 11:26 AM | Link to this

Is it possible to discuss the value of a draft, or national service in general, without making either a proxy for arguing our views on Iraq or George W. Bush?

No Jim, it’s not possible and I believe it’s why our enlistment numbers are down. As a country there is a segment within our culture who proudly…

applauds those congressmen/women that proclaim from the floor, for purely political reasons, that it is our brave troops who are the murderers in Iraq…

they thrive on the negative media accounts while conveniently ignoring the positives…

they claim that there is no way our military can accomplish their task…

they question the integrity of those brave men and women who risk their lives to protect the very freedoms which they cherish…

if you sign up in spite of, you’re just a D-U-M-B, uneducated patriot (John Kerry’s words, not mine) defending ^^^ those losers.

Is it any wonder the numbers are down?

To answer your question, I think a mandatory service requirement is a great way to awaken the brain dead.

It was Bush Sr. who called for the American people to the Take Pride in America’s Volunteers.

It worked for me. Volunteer to support our military in thought, word and deed. Be strong for them, not against them.

By Glenn

October 29, 2007 11:27 AM | Link to this

Greetins cretins,

Compulsory service. That seems better than the other kind.

That’s a paraphrase of Mark Twain, who was laughing at the time about the self-canceling irony inherent in the idea of enforced disarmament, or compulsory peace.

MrLiberty, I’m afraid, will have to get past the constitutional permissibility of compulsory school attendance laws. Which matter in turn brings me back to a certain conversation on the sofa of a certain Jeffersonist who said that TJ regretted the omission, in our national or state frameworks, of any straightforward enunciation of the social contract (who/whom, & for what?) justifying the imposition on the People’s liberties entailed in compulsory schooling. This lack is as clearly reparable as is our present-day schooling indefensible.

Everything that happens “in the compulsory environment of the public school”, as the Supremes have put it, is colored and denatured, if not actually degraded, by that coercion. That includes “service learning” requirements for high schoolers. (It also, by the way, includes the faddish “parent/teacher contracts”, which are facially invalid in this coercive context.)Nevertheless, as Twain wryly implied, compulsory virtue is better than no virtue.

My sense, from having examined the creatures recently, is that “young folks nowadays” are a mixed lot, many of them touchingly idealistic and energetically altruistic — even thoughtfully patriotic — and many of them petty and beastly beyond anything we would readily recognize from our past.

Who doesn’t admire the way the Israelis and Swiss treat national service? I suspect that their admirability is due in large part to their having approached democracy and liberty and social contracts as difficult and vitally necessary work. I can’t help thinking that Professor Sabato’s proposal is, by contrast, facile and slovenly.

Anyway, this turns out to be a right innershting topic, and y’all’re making lovely points. Looks like Jim did his job well.

[Rudy 08]

By No Slavery

October 29, 2007 11:33 AM | Link to this

To Ron..

Agreed…but it should be my choice.. not the government that decides. You original posts implies that those that decide not to physically serve this country should be forced to…

By fred

October 29, 2007 11:45 AM | Link to this

I agree with a requirement for all US citizens, and frankly those with green cards, to serve a term (whatever that might be) of national service. BUT, why limit that rrequirement to serve in the armed forces, what about including the forestry service or Parks and Recs programs, Firefighters or Rescue Squads can surely also benefit form a “draft” service does not need to be in the form of military, we can serve our country and her citizens in a multitude of ways, all of whicj will create a sense of responsibility, pride and instill a work ethos into many who are lacking. just my 2 cents

By fred

October 29, 2007 11:47 AM | Link to this

I agree with a requirement for all US citizens, and frankly those with green cards, to serve a term (whatever that might be) of national service. BUT, why limit that rrequirement to serve in the armed forces, what about including the forestry service or Parks and Recs programs, Firefighters or Rescue Squads can surely also benefit form a “draft” service does not need to be in the form of military, we can serve our country and her citizens in a multitude of ways, all of whicj will create a sense of responsibility, pride and instill a work ethos into many who are lacking. just my 2 cents

By dave

October 29, 2007 11:51 AM | Link to this

I would LOVE a draft in this country! My favorite part would be watching all of my conservative war supporting neighbors with draft age sons and daughters quickly peel off their “W” stickers and little ribbons off of their un-patriotic environmentally politically un-correct gas guzzling SUV’s. I’d even offer to drive their kids to the airport to board the planes for their service to our country in my Prius! Time for a draft. TIme for the “phoney” war supporters to put their money where there mouths are. To pay with the lives of their children at stake. Yes YES indeed!

By TW

October 29, 2007 11:51 AM | Link to this

Glenn - just wanted to tip my hat to your boy Rudi for bringing the World Series Title back to Boston. They couldn’t have done it without his leadership.

Draft? Great idea. Being that what we have now has been turned into basically free labor for special interest, why not find an excuse to pay them even less?

Funny how those who won’t comply with a watering ban are all about someone else getting drafted…service???? Ha…

By getalife

October 29, 2007 11:53 AM | Link to this

Yes, it is a relabeled draft.

That should wake up America that Rudy wants WWIII.

So, the choice will Rudy who is advised by neocons who wants WWIII, a draft and permanent war or return to the good old days of peace and prosperity of the Clintons.

The Clintons are positioned very well to win the general.

By Mel

October 29, 2007 11:57 AM | Link to this

I think all illegal immigrants should be required to serve at least 2 years in the military. If they want to be American, they’ve got to start proving themselves and that’s a good place to start.

By MrLiberty

October 29, 2007 12:02 PM | Link to this

Dusty,

Let’s clear one thing up. Those men and women who died in Iraq, Afghanistan, Korea, Vietnam, Grenada, Somalia, Kosovo, Serbia, Haiti, Panama and every other conflict since WW2 (the world wars are an entire discussion themselves), did not die for America. They may have wanted to belive that, but what they died for was the EMPIRE. The EMPIRE consists of our questionably elected leaders, representatives, and the military industrial complex that benefits from war. The remainder of america is the last vestiges of the once-great REPUBLIC.

These people have not been fighting for my freedoms. If they had actually been fighting for my freedoms, they would have to have stayed in america, because that is where my freedoms were lost.

Terrorists and leaders of foreign countries thousands of miles away cannot take away my freedoms. The Patriot Act did. The Military Tribunals Act did. Illegal wiretapping by our president has taken away my rights and liberties, as has the sheer act of government growth over the past 100 years.

To date, neither Korea, Vietnam, Somalia, Iraq, Afghanistan or any other country or its leaders has even come close to harming my freedoms. None of them ever had the chance, or the desire.

I know they told you differently in government school and on the TV news. Well, they lied to you.

A standing army was considered by the founding fathers as one of the greatest threats to liberty that could exist. It allowed the executive and the government to engage in wars with great ease, despite objection from the people.

There are people fighting for my rights. They live in this country. The most prominent of which is Ron Paul, who has been fighting for all of our rights in congress for 20 years. Now he wants to continue the struggle as President and I wish him the best.

Occasionally there are republican and democratic representatives that vote to protect and defend my rights, but they are far too few. Then there are groups like the Libertarian Party, The Constitution Party, Downsize D.C., The Free State Project, The Fully Informed Jury Association, the ACLU (on occasion), various antiwar groups, various anti-tax groups, civil liberties groups, and the like who understand more importantly that the greatest risk to liberty are the domestic enemies.

By getalife

October 29, 2007 12:10 PM | Link to this

both these web sites tell the cold hard truth about Shrillary!!

http://www.hillcap.org/default.php?page_id=2

http://www.newmediajournal.us/dailycolumns/thefraudulent_senator.htm

By Glenn

October 29, 2007 12:11 PM | Link to this

Dusty, thanks for your 11:07. Also, you’re right about the Devil being in the details. God also inheres therein, as you know. Makes things enchantingly macabre, no?

@@, hear, hear!

Sharky & No Slavery, yep, you’ve shown that the historical precedent is worth belaboring. It seems you and the others have taken it to its classist aspects. [Story of TR’s joingoism stemming from humiliation over his Knickerbocker leisure-class dad’s draft-dodging is also interesting here.] That in turn harkens to the notoriously disproportionate draft demographics of the ’60s and ’70s. The Selective Service is, I think, duly proud of its record of the past couple decades, though, which is more in keeping with the requirements of equal protection and socioeconomic mobility of the disadvantaged. (I wouldn’t dare make this stuff up; the figures I’ve been shown repeatedly do bear out this good news.) I keep coming back to the Froggy Enlightenment and the social contract schtick. jbm!

Dennis, I respectfully take exception to your flippant asides that would have us accept as a fait accompli that the U.S. has failed in Iraq. On the contrary, many of us believe that the war, which was the allied invasion, was won in record time and with record-setting care for the lives of civilians, and that the bloody occupation and pacification likewise is succeeding, protracted though has been by dint of Iranian and Syrian proxy-warfare, errant U.S. command decisions, sectarian opportunism, our increasingly punctilious concern for collateral suffering, and the obstructionism of loyal and disloyal opposition both American and British. Still, those who decry the tragedy and waste in Iraw will not be invalidated by the victorious return of our forces, but only just made a bit ridiculous.

I’m psychic, so I know these things.

[Rudy 08]

By Jack

October 29, 2007 12:13 PM | Link to this

They died serving America. Not the empire.

By HellNo, We Won't Go

October 29, 2007 12:17 PM | Link to this

A draft gives the politicians the idea that the lives of our children are at their disposal - proof positive is Viet Nam. Today, the American Central government is controlled by a foreign power and its american operatives. With a draft, that foreign power has virtually unlimited military resources available to attack and destroy its enemies, at no cost to itself. Young men: if a draft is imposed, arm yourselves and vow to kill at least one scum bag who is trying to enslave you. Save America, Nuke Israel Now.

By MrLiberty

October 29, 2007 12:32 PM | Link to this

Glenn,

First of all it is inappropriate to lump the wonderful democratic nation of Switzerland in with the bloodthirsty, socialst regime of Israel. Swiss serve and train for national defense, while Israelis serve and train to protect illegal settlers living on stolen land. But that is not the issue.

Yes, I not only admire the Swiss service experience, but I also recongnize that it is founded in defence, the soldiers get to take their weapons with them when they go home and are required to have them at the ready (for some this may mean antitank and antiaircraft weapons). I also admire that their governments are fully democratic and completely local with the central federal government having almost no power over the people.

Our military service is as diametrically opposed to this as one could get. Our soldiers train for offensive actions against foreign nations, go home disarmed, and must deal with a central power structure that sucks our 40+% of their income and tells them everything they can do under penalty of law, from what cars they can own, how much money they can keep of their income, what they can do for a living, what they can put into their bodies for medicine, where they can travel to, who they can trade with, etc. Meanwhile the Swiss are free.

Good comments about the compulsory schools as well.

David

By getalife

October 29, 2007 12:33 PM | Link to this

If you don’t want a draft, vote dem.

In the brilliant political move by the Clintons, the yes vote on Kyl-Lieberman has clinched the national security issue of Iran. Obama and Edwards are against it to make them look weak on national security.

With Rudy’s stay the course and escalate permanent war to WWIII with his neocon ad visors, the choice in the general is clear. WWIII or peace, diplomocy and prosperity with the Clintons.

We gave war a chance and the gop are positioned to lose in a landslide. This will give the Clintons a larger dem majority and unlimited power thanks to dick.

By MrLiberty

October 29, 2007 12:43 PM | Link to this

If you don’t want a draft then you better vote for Ron Paul. I sat and listened to every single democratic presidential candidate support the idea of either a draft or compulsory service during a debate not that long ago.

Ron Paul has consistantly voted against the draft and wants a foreign policy of non-intervention that will keep us all safer. The democrats all want ot blowup everything, starting with IRAN.

By Kieran

October 29, 2007 12:43 PM | Link to this

MrLiberty, were you to catch the next plane for Caracas, presumably El Senor Presidente would happily receive you, as he has done so many lefty Yanquis with an antiquarian’s penchant for quaint neo-Marxist notions of colonial imperialism. After you and he enjoy a long and festive confab over Cuban cigars & such, do exercise your right of return to the United States, which, as it happens, long ago found better things to do than empire-building. And don’t forget to bring back some duty-free coffee to feed your habit!

P.S. Jack is back. Soon, most of the troops will be too. But you don’t have to await their return; you can enlighten them now, via email, as to what manner of tyranny they’re defending — or not defending, or whatever. Do you know how to find them, even in cyberspace?

By Smitty

October 29, 2007 12:52 PM | Link to this

Why don’t we send all our prisoners over to fight the wars. If they get killed, well, that’s less money for the taxpayers to pay for their room and board.

Better yet, send all the guys on Death Row to Iraq. Quit sending some poor teen age boy with his life ahead of him. Send in the ones who have already ruined their lives. And don’t give them any training. Just send them over there, and let ‘em go.

Then start sending the illegals. If and when they come back, make them legal, only after serving for one full year. Then see how happy they are to come to America!!!

By getalife

October 29, 2007 12:57 PM | Link to this

Mr. liberty and justice for all?

Not with the gop. Yes, he did write the Freedom Act and Dodd is running on restoring the Constitution but Paul will not get the nomination.

I hope he wins Iowa or New Hampshire to stir up this election.

Red State has banned talking about him and if you want to watch the lizards at the little green footballs go off, post about about Ron Paul and his Freedom Act.

Bwa.

By Dennis

October 29, 2007 12:57 PM | Link to this

Glenn@12:11. Dennis, I respectfully take exception to your flippant asides that would have us accept as a fait accompli that the U.S. has failed in Iraq.”

There are some who oppose war at whatever the cost, I am not one of them. But was not in support of the OBVIOUS lies to get into this one either (Lies that have been since proven even more so).

It is sad that people like Jim Wooten have at their desposal the means to promote such lies. He has and does.

Then he comes today wanting a call for universal service?

I’ll support him if he will also give a call to try OUR war criminals.

But he ain’t gonna do that.

You don’t have to be a blind conservative not to see it, just an ignorant one to deny it.

By dm

October 29, 2007 12:58 PM | Link to this

Conscription or required service of any kind for any purpose is slavery and therefore immoral and probably unconstitutional.

We might make some progress on the rights vs responsibilities matter if we had a dialog on exactly what rights are, exactly what it is that people really have a right to, exactly what government is, and exactly what government should and should not do.

Only parents, not government, can do much about the rotten kids matter, and they have to do it in time. Government may be doing some things to make it worse.

By HellNo, We Won't Go

October 29, 2007 1:03 PM | Link to this

You people are idiots: send illegals to fight, send prisioners to fight, draft children to fight. We have no reason to fight at all. Our government and media have been stolen by the pro israel crowd, and the jesus freak christians in american think that is a-ok. You people are worthless, I wash my hands of the whole pack of you. I have moved my wealth out of AmeriKa, and I am now doing everything in my power to destroy the value of the AmeriKan pig dollar, and deny oil to my fellow AmeriKan pig energy hogs, and their zionist war machine. As the dollar dies, and as oil becomes too expensive, then non available at any price, just remember that I worked hard to bring that day about. Remember also that each item of food on your dinner table travels on average 1600 miles to get to your plate. I have plenty of food, and fuel, and I will not share with anyone.

By Vet and Proud

October 29, 2007 1:10 PM | Link to this

I love the comments on the draft- it is the poor that get drafted!! Well, I have never been poor by anyone’s definition. I lived in Buckhead for the 1st 18 years of my life, and reside in Brentwood, TN now. I spent three years in the service of my country following an invitation from the draft board. Several of my class mates from Westminster did also. We all laugh at the “only the poor” line of BS. My son joined the US Marines after high school and I am damned proud of him. He did two combat tours in the middle east and is a sophomore at Vandy now. I have several neighbors and friends at the club who have sons in the service. To DAVE - you are special with your “look at me! I’m special” car. You could not have driven my son to the airport to go overseas, his gear would have swamped your toy status symbol. He would have been too embarrassed anyway, Marines do not ride in chick cars. No doubt you never served in the military, not man enough.

By dave

October 29, 2007 1:10 PM | Link to this

Yeah Smitty…and prisoners guns….death row inmates, right?…I hope someone blocks your right to vote…forget about age…you’re just not qualified to vote. (but you’re still not as much of an idiot as the anti-semetic clown Hellno).

…wil not share….OMFG!!!!….yeah…the world is doomed….hahahahahaha! You need some SERIOUS help brother! FAST!

By HellNo, We Won't Go

October 29, 2007 1:13 PM | Link to this

Educate yourself Dave, or face the consequences.

By Glenn

October 29, 2007 1:16 PM | Link to this

dm, you’ll find agreement in my 11:27.

By dave

October 29, 2007 1:24 PM | Link to this

By Vet and Proud: You are a real man…that you are! How many innocents did your son kill? How many collateral damage victims did he “take out” as he was protecting us? I wouldn’t give your sissy son a ride. I’m not “look at me”…those driving SUV’s are. I’m just smarter and actually care more. I want to protect, you….and your son…want to destruct and kill. Your kind…you cheerleaders of this war, and think it is just, you’ve created more terrorists then this world has ever known. Good for you. And when Buckhead becomes ANYTHING like Bedford, NY where I grew up…let me know. Compare the schools, compare the homes, compare the income levels. ANd last..I’m not man enough? You and your son….you’re not men enough to marry the kind of girl I did. Ivy Educated and a former model to boot. That’s a man…sissy…now go play with your guns, or go kill a defensless animal…(it makes you feel like a real man does it not)?????

By HellNo, We Won't Go

October 29, 2007 1:32 PM | Link to this

Dave, I seriously doubt if Vet is what he claims. At best, he is an under employed white collar worker with too little supervision, which allows him to waste much time surfing the internet rather than perform the work for which he or she is being paid. Most of the bloggers on the board fall into that category. I myself am retired, and I am accountable to no one except myself.

By MrLiberty

October 29, 2007 1:49 PM | Link to this

Kieran,

Since you know little of history, here is a short lesson using quotes (don’t want it too complicated)

Thomas Jefferson(commie pinko)quotes:

“To cherish and maintain the rights and liberties of our citizens and to ward from them the burthens, the miseries and the crimes of war, by a just and friendly conduct towards all nations [are] among the most obvious and important duties of those to whom the management of their public interests have been confided.” —Thomas Jefferson: Reply to John Thomas, et al., 1807. ME 16:290

“There are instruments so dangerous to the rights of the nation and which place them so totally at the mercy of their governors that those governors, whether legislative or executive, should be restrained from keeping such instruments on foot but in well-defined cases. Such an instrument is a standing army.” —Thomas Jefferson to David Humphreys, 1789. ME 7:323

“I do not like [in the new Federal Constitution] the omission of a Bill of Rights providing clearly and without the aid of sophisms for… protection against standing armies.” —Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1787. ME 6:387

“Nor is it conceived needful or safe that a standing army should be kept up in time of peace for [defense against invasion].” —Thomas Jefferson: 1st Annual Message, 1801. ME 3:334

“Standing armies [are] inconsistent with [a people’s] freedom and subversive of their quiet.” —Thomas Jefferson: Reply to Lord North’s Proposition, 1775. Papers 1:231

“The spirit of this country is totally adverse to a large military force.” —Thomas Jefferson to Chandler Price, 1807. ME 11:160

“A distinction between the civil and military [is one] which it would be for the good of the whole to obliterate as soon as possible.” —Thomas Jefferson: Answers to de Meusnier Questions, 1786. ME 17:90

“There shall be no standing army but in time of actual war.” —Thomas Jefferson: Draft Virginia Constitution, 1776. Papers 1:363

“In this country, [a draught from the militia] ever was the most unpopular and impracticable thing that could be attempted. Our people, even under the monarchical government, had learnt to consider it as the last of all oppressions.” —Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, 1777. ME 4:286, Papers 2:18

“The breaking men to military discipline is breaking their spirits to principles of passive obedience.” —Thomas Jefferson to John Jay, 1788. ME 7:19

“The following [addition to the Bill of Rights] would have pleased me:… All troops of the United States shall stand ipso facto disbanded at the expiration of the term for which their pay and subsistence shall have been last voted by Congress, and all officers and soldiers not natives of the United States shall be incapable of serving in their armies by land except during a foreign war.” —Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1789. ME 7:451, Papers 15:368

By Angela

October 29, 2007 2:02 PM | Link to this

I agree with the need for service to our country. This can be used in addition to make illegal immigrants citizens while serving our country for atleast 5 years.

By gayamaya

October 29, 2007 2:03 PM | Link to this

does anybody come from those of us who are young enough to have to actaully serve in something like this?!! Do you even have a clue how many of us want to make a difference that matters?? Alot of my friends are involved already. We don’t need anybody telling us we have to be involved. That would be ok I guess if we could do something CONstructive instead of DEstructive like blowing up other young people like us in Iraq. Like if we could do some thing together to solve the biggest problem which is the global enviromental disaster that is coming. (and already has). We could find out what companies are emiting what into the air and putting what toxics into everyones water. This would be good for all countries because of Global Warming. Or we could get paid to work in family clinics and that would mean a little more food for the entire hungry earth. Some of us are growing organics already and riding bikes and Marta and not taking drivers ed. My best friend is a intern for a class and her company makes solar for houses and buildings. Her and I wear hemp alot and its good clothing and all natural. (also good environment wise) So what I am saying is their are a bunch of things we could do to make a diference like we are already making. Especially if we got paid by the government for it their would be definately more of it. Peace! maya

By ramblinlonghorn

October 29, 2007 2:03 PM | Link to this

Saying “there’s too much emphasis on rights, and not enough on responsibilities,” exposes a lack of knowledge of the enlightenment philosophy that our country is founded on. Our fundamental rights aren’t granted to us by our government, or our constitution: We have these rights because we are human beings, and our founding fathers believed that that alone should guarantee us the right to life , liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (to quote President Jefferson).

I think a “recommended” national service would be a wonderful idea. Reinvigorating the Peace Corps, WPA, CCC, and other new deal type programs may provide an outlet for public service that young citizens haven’t seen. Providing incentives such as college tuition reimbursement, or dare I say it, access to a federal health care plan, could provide financial help as well as experience to young citizens from difficult backgrounds.

By Jack

October 29, 2007 2:12 PM | Link to this

Poor Dave. No clue at all. Bless your heart.

By HellNo, We Won't Go

October 29, 2007 2:13 PM | Link to this

National Service directly implies that we the people are here to serve the government - WRONG - The government and the politicians are here to SERVE US. Period. Now let us reduce government to as near to zero as possible.

By deegee

October 29, 2007 2:22 PM | Link to this

Interesting to note that Larry Sabato is also promoting congressional term limits and a larger, more representative congress as well as national service for young adults. Congress and its sense of entitlement sets the wrong example in this country when it comes to national service. I will vote for compulsory national service for young adult Americans when the politicians vote to limit themselves to one, maybe two terms in office.

By dave

October 29, 2007 2:27 PM | Link to this

Right Jack, Sorry I’m not a cheerleader. Ever give a thought to why oil is now $92 a barrel? What was the price the day “Dubya” and “Dick” first took over? They make their Saudi friends very happy, and very rich. Talk about clues…they’re right in front of your face. Now take off your rose colored glasses and see the world the way it really is. Yes my friends the Military Industrial Complex is working out SO very well for their friends (and for them). Was that too deep for you Jack? Do you need to google that term?

By Dusty

October 29, 2007 2:31 PM | Link to this

Kieran @12:43

Yes, yes, you said it just right to Mr. Liberty and Dave. I was trying to write something but holding my nose with one hand and typing with the other doesn’t work too well. That is the only way I can read some of the posts here. I think we have some refugee invasion from the lefty-loons-Luckovich blog.

Glenn,

Now that I have posted such a “classy” post as the above (that’s a joke), let me mention Edward FitzGerald of yesterday’s interest.

I must have taken the idea too far that FitzGerald was “more reflective of his own ideas of line and thought ” than Omar Khayyam. True, Fitz was the interpreter as the beautiful little copy of the Rubiyyat that I own prints quite plainly. So much for that.

As to the Greenies…take heart. I think Americans will tire of this far left fugue just like they did prohibition, the Charleston and Valentine Day maassacres. Basicly, most Americans have a pure straight-arrow common sense which rises in most occassions. Well…. for most sensible Americans, i.e. conservatives!!

By Curious Observer

October 29, 2007 2:36 PM | Link to this

Some on this blog are much too young to remember the national military draft. It was a fact, and its constitutionality had been upheld, even when there was no war. I see foolish statements about slavery in reference to it, but a nation has the right to defend itself in a crisis, even at the expense of individual liberties. However, this is not a time of such a crisis.

I grew up during a period when the draft was in existence. If you were a male, you knew only one thing for certain: you were going to serve in the military, unless your parents were wealthy enough to send you to college (and thus gain you a deferment) or you were medically unfit for service. Then, as now, only the children of the well-to-do seemed to find ways not to serve.

Yes, military service is a salutary experience for many who might otherwise never find the self-discipline to learn to succeed in anything. I know I owe much of whatever success I’ve had to the discipline the Marine Corps forced me to exercise.

At the same time, I would not welcome a return to the draft. Our military deserves better than being forced to accept malcontents who have no desire to serve. The same can be said of the fine civilian organizations Wooten references.

I don’t like to hear the ignorant comments of those with absolutely no military experience. At the same time, as an American I must respect their right to voice their opinions. We gain nothing by attempting to force compulsory national service on everyone—nothing but creating even greater enmity among those who do not want to serve.

Keep the voluntary system we have now. We are long past the times of the 1940s, 1950s, and 1960s. And let us hope we never again encounter a crisis in which a military draft must be reactivated as a matter of national survival.

By Jack

October 29, 2007 2:36 PM | Link to this

Dave. Your stupid post I was referring to was about war. Something you obviously no nothing about. Is THAT too deep for you?

By Dustbuster

October 29, 2007 2:37 PM | Link to this

Dusty, go sleep it off.

By ageofpaper

October 29, 2007 2:37 PM | Link to this

There should be a requirement that everyone serve in the military, everyone! The rich, poor, invalid, men, woman and even the blind. This would make everyone equal and feel that they have a stake in this country. Kids going in the service at 18 might save them before gangs and drugs took hold. The alternate services Meals on Wheels, the Humane Society, Habitat for Humanity, Big Brothers/Big Sisters and others. Nothing more than a way for rich kids to stay out of the service and harms way. It would be good for the Biffs’ of the world to spend some time with the lower classes.

By HellNo, We Won't Go

October 29, 2007 2:38 PM | Link to this

Will someone shut up that idiot mouth piece for zionist scum, the one that calls itself Dusty? I am sick to death of her holyier than thou attitude - she is a classic military brat, the kind that is tought from a young age to wrap their ugly a* in the Flag each and every time they get into trouble. Invade an innocent country, murder hundreds of thousands of innocent people - No problem, just point out the sacrifice of your soldiers, pick out a few, and hype them into heros - Jessica Machine Gun Lynch comes to mind. Never mind that she was knocked senseless, put out a story of her mowing down the bad guys. Drop dead, Dusty.

By dave

October 29, 2007 2:44 PM | Link to this

Jack, that is what i was talking about….WAR…the oil. OH I forgot….it was about WMD’s….no…ummm…it was about removing Saddam and saving us all from the threat. helping the Iraqi’s gain peace and prosperity in their country…..

You are blind sir…truly truly blind. So sad. But makes me understand everyday how most let us get into this mess.

By ageofpaper

October 29, 2007 2:44 PM | Link to this

PLus if everyone and I mean everyone had to serve, the leaders would be less inclined to start wars over military contracts and oil. Even the blind and deaf could contribute to the cause.

By Dose of Reality

October 29, 2007 2:51 PM | Link to this

Yes, we are an Empire and yes the American Empire, just like all others before it will continue to need solders. You can either rule or be ruled that’s just the way the world is and has always been so get used to the idea. As for the draft, HELL NO not till we get our illegal immigration problem under control. It’s not fair that my son/daughter would have to risk his/her life for 2 years while every illegal that wades across the Rio Grande gets to live, work, educate their children and receive free medical care without taking that risk. If the Empire needs solders I say we round up all the illegals and give’m a choice. Sign up for 4 years of military service, after 2 you are granted citizenship and after 4 you are free to go. All illegals not willing or not qualified for what ever reason get a free one way ticket back where they came from. This would totally solve our lack of solders problem as I predict recruiting offices would be filled with young immigrants literally dying to become citizens in 2 years free of charge. This approach also solves many political problems since illegals can’t vote politicians really won’t have to care or worry about their all important re-election/power mongering plans.

By HellNo, We Won't Go

October 29, 2007 2:52 PM | Link to this

You don’t know Jack, Jack. The only war you understand is the kind where we kill the enemy from the air, with no risk to ourselves, from a safe distance away. Try fighting up close and personal Jack, or try being amoung the survivors on the ground after one of our sneak air attacks, or try me sometime Jack. I’ll show you what violence really is, hatchet to head, knife to belly violence. You would no doubt barf at the mere smell of up close and personal violence. There is a nasuating smell to violence and death, it gets in your nose and doesn’t go away for a good while. No, Jack, it is not the smell of microwave popcorn, your usual fare while watching safely packaged violence on the boob tube. Just for kicks, visit a slaughterhouse sometime, the smell is there too, its just not human death stink.

By Jack

October 29, 2007 2:53 PM | Link to this

You still don’t get it do you Dave. If there was a draft I’m sure you would be the first to leave your trophy wife and haul your yellow a$$ to Canada. Do us all a favor and go now. if it wasn’t for the military you would be speaking German now.

By Glenn

October 29, 2007 3:07 PM | Link to this

MrLiberty,

Forgive me. Did I ever write anything on this site that led you to the conclusion that I “know little of history”? If so, please point to it. By virtue of temperament and training, I’ve usually been at pains to avoid leaving the historical record uncorrected, especially when I have erred. There’s so little exchange of history these days that history’s become a precious and fragile thing.

Did you suppose that it would come as a surprise to anyone that Jefferson advocated the smallest practicable citizen-soldiery under the constant and careful control of civilian authority? Is that, by the way, not what we have now? Or have our ground forces been, or are they now, inadequate in scale?

Did you suppose that President Jefferson did not maintain a standing military, and use it throughout his incumbency e.g. to wage the first of the Barbary Wars and to keep open, by force of arms, our lines of communication? Did you not remember that it was Jefferson who opened West Point?

And more in keeping with today’s topic, did you happen to know — not that anyone especially should know — that Jefferson similarly considered the conscription of children for compulsory schooling a breach of liberty tantamount to kidnapping (as he put it, “asportation”), in spite of which he deemed that form of conscription necessary to the survival and success of the Republic? (A finding upheld to this day by the U.S. Supreme Court, which has ruled that “compulsory schooling is not so much a right, as a duty imposed upon the individual in the interest of the state.”)

Thank you for expressly offering me “a history lesson”. Believe it or not, I’ve always been eagerly attentive to a good history lesson.

[Rudy 08]

By dave

October 29, 2007 3:09 PM | Link to this

jack, there was a time to fight. WWII was one of them. After 9/11 going after Al Quada and those like the Taliban was a worthy cause. The whole country was behind what we did during WWII. The whole world was behind us after 9/11. Dubya and Dick, Rummy, and the whole Neocon crowd did a great job at destroying our world wide support. IF it was WWII and I was drafted, that would be one thing. being drafted because of greed and corruption, against any enemy that has no uniform. Fighting a battle against an idea instead of a nation can’t be won. So..no…i woud not fight and kill Iraqi’s or Iranians b/c they are muslims….because they sit ontop of huge oil reserves. Never would I.

But I’m too old for the draft…(just made it…haha)….and don’t ever compare WWII to the war we fight now. Ever. Very different. There were serious threats to the world back then. Iran and Iraq are not, never were, nor ever will be threats. We….what we’ve become…are a threat to the stability and peace in this world. But all Empires come to an end….we are SOO on the path to our own destruction. China being the next super economy and next super power that comes along with a strong economy. They are going up, we are clearly going down. In near history, The British empire ended, the French empire ended…the German one as well. There economies were driven by fuel as well. British coal mines, etc. Funny how so many that call us the greatest nation on earth….have hardly been out of the country to see the rest of the world. Nor do they read books. They (like you Jack)…listen to hate radio (Blaming liberals for everything…including the 6 years of complete power they had while they messed up the world), and to fox news….etc. Jack….let me ask…instead of Canada…..don’t you think New Zealand is much prettier?

By Jack

October 29, 2007 3:12 PM | Link to this

HellNo, We Won’t Go. Hey crackhead, I was drafted and I went. I wasn’t in the air I was in the jungle so go s—t in your hat and wear it.

By Georgia 74

October 29, 2007 3:14 PM | Link to this

Nuke em all let God sort it out.

By getalife

October 29, 2007 3:20 PM | Link to this

Vote for Rudy and you will get a draft and WWIII.

Vote Clintons for sanity and diplomocy with no draft.

The choice is clear.

Clintons to clean up bushies mess again.

By ageofpaper

October 29, 2007 3:21 PM | Link to this

Men Men, Rome ruled for 900 years and greed did them in, our great leaders and Corporate leaders will be able to ruin the whole thing in 400 years. We start wars, we attack other nations, hell Iraq was a lot better off with Sadam and he hated terrorist.

By HellNo, We Won't Go

October 29, 2007 3:22 PM | Link to this

Jack is a liar as well as a coward, but what else is new.

By Van

October 29, 2007 3:28 PM | Link to this

” We have become a nation of people who consider it a right to have every law and institution shaped to our personal preferences and situation…”

So does this mean big business execs. and lobbyists have to sign up for service too?

By dave

October 29, 2007 3:33 PM | Link to this

And…and BTW Jack and all you other War Cheerleaders….

During WWII where I said above that the whole country was doing its job to support the war effort. Everyone made sacrafices. Every man, woman, child in the effort did what they needed to in the name of a greater good, and a chance at peace.

That’s very different then slapping a “We support the Troops” magnet on the back of your SUV. This country’ civilian population has made no sacrifices for the war. I loved it when after 9/11…Dubya said everyone should do what?…c’mon say it: go shopping!!!!! Some sacrifice, huh Jack?

Back then….young adult children of our leaders signed up to support their own father’s decisions. How about the children of our leaders? Dubya, Cheney, Rummy, how many of their relatives fight in this war?

By HellNo, We Won't Go

October 29, 2007 3:33 PM | Link to this

Jack, is your daughter a druggie? Ah, yes, I thought so.

By Glenn

October 29, 2007 3:35 PM | Link to this

Jack, let me ask you something about something a Vietnam vet (artillery spotter, ground) told me a couple weeks ago. He said he was drafted into the Army in the inauspicious year of ‘67, and hated the Army because it had robbed him of his freedom.

The resentment was eating at him until finally he started acting out and was sent to some kind of Army shrink, who actually was able to help him. The shrink said that even though my friend had received his draft notice, still he’d retained his basic American freedoms, as contemplated in civilian and even martial law.

According to my friend, the shrink reminded him that he could’ve burned his draft card, he could’ve moved to Canada, he could’ve become a C.O., he could’ve refused in the field and gone to Leavenworth, etc. Cold comfort, of course, but evidently warm enough to help my friend by assuring him that he still was a free & sovereign citizen of the U.S. and as such retained broad control of his destiny, however constrained, by military necessity, his customary liberties may then have been.

Guy says he almost immediately got his pride back, and I know from others that he spent the remainder of his war rather valiantly.

My question to you, assuming (as I do) that this story is true: was the shrink a quack for the Army, or was there truth in his delineation of liberties conditioned by duty?

By HellNo, We Won't Go

October 29, 2007 3:38 PM | Link to this

Jack, I think she was at the local crack house last night. Pulling the train, as it were, ha ha ha.

By Dose of reality

October 29, 2007 3:45 PM | Link to this

Yes the choice is clear, stick our heads in the sand and get our butt kicked when Iran and other Islamic Fundamentalist start a nuclear war or suck it up and solve the problem now. If your too weak or cowardly to fight for what you believe in you don’t deserve to be free.

Yes, lots of solders are going to die, Yes gas prices will rise to astronimical levels so your SUV will be obsolete, Yes your comfy life middle-upper class life style will change for the worse, Yes we will need to kill millions of innocent people to get at those we want because they will hide behind them, Yes it will take longer than we want, Yes, we will have to use weapons of mass destruction in response to them being used on us. NO, We really won’t have a choice.

By Jack

October 29, 2007 3:53 PM | Link to this

When you are in the military, you are owned by the US gov’t. IMO you temporarily suspend your rights. I didn’t want to go but my Dad, who was a WWII vet, said it was the right thing to do. So I did it. If I skipped out it would have been hard to look myself in the mirror.

By Glenn

October 29, 2007 3:57 PM | Link to this

Dose of Reality,

Two cheers for your 2:51, but the fact that the world’s remaining superpower can’t be counted among history’s “empires”, in which “you can either rule or be ruled”, is borne out by your having taken the trouble in that post to kick around policy options and recommend an “approach”. You wrote as though you actually had a voice in governance, as indeed we all do have. So, as Marx himself would ask, who/whom? An empire? Really?

Let’s save that one for China.

By Glenn

October 29, 2007 4:00 PM | Link to this

Jack, thanks for your answer, and especially for the choice you made back then.

By HellNo, We Won't Go

October 29, 2007 4:05 PM | Link to this

Wrong Dose of reality - Iran is no threat to America, quite the opposite. America has held the world in a state of nuclear terror since August of 1945, when we used atomic weapons on TWO Japanese cities full of civilians. The world would be better off without America, of that I am sure. AmeriKa and its puppet masters in Toilet Aviv, Israel have been threatening Iran for more than a decade, up to and including the treat of nuclear attack. Iran has no nuclear weapons, while the criminals in Israel have more than 300 American supplied nuclear weapons. Need proof? Each and every nuclear design must be tested via detonation, there are just too many variables to theoretically design such weapons. Yet Israel has not tested such a weapon, but has built at least 300 warheads. Why? Because they are using an already tested American warhead design, and more importantly, American supplied fissionable and fusionable material, timing circuits, and explosives. Yet the two faced liars in Washington and Toilet Aviv accuse Iran of being a threat to world peace! My fellow Americans are too stupid to know they have been lied to, stolen from, and their very existence jeopardized by the pro israel lobby and their traitors agents in high places throughout the United States Government. Iran is no threat to you and me. Israel and its traitors in Washington are a major threat to all of us.

By Kieran

October 29, 2007 4:13 PM | Link to this

Aerogopagus,

Thought I’d detected a chunk of Gibbon washed down with Toynbee. How very respectable. Also reminiscent of the call, the other day, for a leader — a leader! — in the context of moribund powers, etc.

By Jack

October 29, 2007 4:16 PM | Link to this

HellNo, We Won’t Go @3:38. That was a low blow. (something you are good at)

By ageofpaper

October 29, 2007 4:25 PM | Link to this

Whew did it ever get touch in this room, take oil out of the equation and the problem goes away. Get on Google and check out the known reserves of oil, there is no shortage! BMW has ads with hydrogen cars, ‘ready when you are’. Jack the price up before a new sheriff takes office, its global baby, they don’t care who they burn in the quest for profits. One country is South America burns only alcohol in their cars, and the engines are made by GM. The oceans are full of water clean it and drink it, separate it and run your cars with it, its right in front of you, dah

By Dusty

October 29, 2007 4:27 PM | Link to this

Hell No we won’t go @2:38

Well, I’m sure you’ll be sorry to hear BUT I’m still alive and kickin’!! Are’t you a prize though? The all American drop out and white flagger.

Yes sir, dear hellacious, you wouldn’t know an empire from an umpire, much less a great country with a strong leader.

Since you saw fit to draw my family into all this, my father was a small town doctor. He served overseas as a physician in the military during war times. You bet he was patriotic. My husband served on an aircraft carrier during war times. One son has served many years in the service. Yep…..all patriotic! Me too!!

You, pipsqueak pugilist, are a disgrace to the country. Find yourself an EMPIRE. This place is too good for you. (Same to you, dustbuster dumdum.)

By Dose of Lou Dobbs

October 29, 2007 4:28 PM | Link to this

Exterminate the b*******.

By HellNo, We Won't Go

October 29, 2007 4:38 PM | Link to this

Sorry Jack, it was your son, not your daughter, he just seems to have the birds and the bees a little confused. Understandable, given the lack of clear thing in his home environment.

By HellNo, We Won't Go

October 29, 2007 4:48 PM | Link to this

With americans like dusty, who need enemies? Dusty, is that a lump in your left boob? Good. Grow baby, grow.

By Glenn

October 29, 2007 4:58 PM | Link to this

Dusty, funny you should’ve mentioned Blake here at the loose end of yesterday’s string. My semi-serious rant about the little green monsters responding to the religous impulse was consciously inflected with a twangy version of Blakeian “fearful symmetry” — somewhat similar to Analchord’s historical Anal Logs. Man of many parts, Blake, some poetic, some painterly, some mystical, some insane. So, much to like.

By Terrence

October 29, 2007 4:59 PM | Link to this

Uncle Sam drafted me in 1970. I was in country for 18 months with one month leave. I was proud to serve then but if you asked me to do it today it would be conditional. Send the freaking libs to Cuba and take Michael Moore with them. I would do it then and only if.

By HellNo, We Won't Go

October 29, 2007 5:00 PM | Link to this

Glenn, Red Dragons too. Fresh blood shines in the moonlight.

By HellNo, We Won't Go

October 29, 2007 5:10 PM | Link to this

Dusty Dirt lies some more - Did your doctor not warn you about this continuing fantasy world you have created, Dirt? Your father was an alcoholic who died in prison for sexual crimes against family members, you have never married, are an obese secretary in a government office, and if you don’t get that report typed by 7, you are fired.

By Dusty

October 29, 2007 5:23 PM | Link to this

Sorry Glenn,

Got cut off there by accident. In “The Marshes of Glen” Lanier wrote

“*As the marsh hen secretly builds on the watery sod,

Behold I will build me a nest on the greatness of God;

I will fly in the greatness of God as the marsh hen flies

In the freedom that fills all the space ‘twist the marsh and the skies;*

You see I used to explore some tidewater creeks when we were on vacation and those lines were always special to me.

By getalife

October 29, 2007 5:29 PM | Link to this

“WASHINGTON - The State Department promised Blackwater USA bodyguards immunity from prosecution in its investigation of last month’s deadly shooting of 17 Iraqi civilians, The Associated Press has learned.”

Yes, your tax dollars bought these murders on innocent people. And w will let them walk.

Vote for gop and get more of this.

By Glenn

October 29, 2007 5:32 PM | Link to this

Terrence, thanks for: your post; your posting; your posting notice of your re-up conditions.

By Dusty

October 29, 2007 5:39 PM | Link to this

Well, Glenn

As to my missing post which roams in space, I did mention that “Tiger” was the only poem of Blakes that I enjoyed. The others were a bit too mystical, as was his art work (for me).

I was hoping that you had enjoyed some Southern poets like Sidney Lanier. Thus you got lines from “The Marshes of Glenn”, some of my favorite thoughts.

By Buckhead Young Repubs

October 29, 2007 5:39 PM | Link to this

Hello Mr. Wooten! Will you be discussing this at your next visit to the Buckhead Young Republicans? We all really really really support the war, but we’re confused. How can we help? We are busy making a name for ourselves in our chosen professions, have condo fees and hefty car payments, and as such, have not had an opportunity to enlist. What else can we do? We look forward to the enlightenment!

By Dusty

October 29, 2007 5:42 PM | Link to this

Hell No we won’t go @4:48

Speaking of lumps, seems you have had two removed from the hinterlands. Hope you look nice in pink.

By Glenn

October 29, 2007 6:16 PM | Link to this

That’s really beautiful, Dusty. How cool that it’s our Lanier. The traditionalist Chesterton famously observed that in the absence of a belief in God it does not naturally follow that people will believe nothing, but rather that they will believe nothing. A generation later, the modernist Wallace Stevens pink-penciled GKC to the effect that, in the absence of a belief in God, mankind turns to its own creations, and looks to them for reaffirmation.

The big difference is that while GKC is warning of a frightening outcome then in prospect, WS is celebrating that very outcome. And that’s the difference between these foul-mouthed, foul-tempered greenies on the one side of this blog, and such as us on t’other.

You remind me of an underrated hero of WWII, the British General Alan Brooke, Chief of the Imperial General Staff and later Field Marshal Viscount Alanbrooke. It was he who commanded the continental expeditionary force at the beginning of the war, and he who led the “Great Deliverance” at Dunkirk. He was, for the duration, Britain’s top strategist in uniform. When he wasn’t war-fighting, he liked to sneak out of various H.Q.s and flyfish or, especially, birdwatch. He was expert at both. Then, refreshed, he’d go back to planning how best to kill Germans.

You remind me of him.