Home > Thinking Right > Archives > 2007 > August > 10 > Entry

Perdue’s insurance fix shouldn’t become another entitlement

By Jim Wooten | Friday, August 10, 2007, 09:08 PM

The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

Gov. Sonny Perdue last week proposed the most significant expansion of the state’s role in funding health care since the creation of PeachCare a decade ago.

He would spend up to $50 million in state and federal funding to subsidize a third of the premiums for employees of small businesses — those with 50 or fewer employees — with incomes below 300 percent of the federal poverty level. That’s $30,600 a year for a single adult and about $62,000 for a family of four. The employer and employee would each pay a third, as well.

The numbers will take a while to settle. The governor thinks that 380,000 uninsured Georgians work for small businesses and that his plan would enable 30,000 of them to buy insurance.

Ken Stewart, the commissoner of the Department of Economic Development, testified before a House-Senate committee Thursday that 600,000 businesses exist in Georgia and that 95 percent of them have fewer than 50 employees. The Georgia Department of Labor put the under-50 number at 252,172, with 1.5 million employees. It reports, too, that 36.9 percent of firms with fewer than 50 employees already offer employee coverage.

The numbers now are not so important as the policy. Offering a taxpayer subsidy to private individuals and companies requires compelling public purpose. And once over that hurdle, it requires, too, a carefully drafted law that specifically targets and tightly contains this genie.

It’s contained initially the way PeachCare was when Congress created the State Childrens Health Insurance Program. That is, it was specifically declared not to be an entitlement, with spending capped. The PeachCare target population was the working poor with incomes below 200 percent of the federal poverty level who couldn’t afford health insurance.

Three significant changes have occurred since. One is that pressure immediately built to expand eligibility. In Georgia, that was done with the first onrush of excess tax collections. The second is that this Congress is turning PeachCare into an entitlement, and raising the eligibility level to about $83,000 for a family of four, meaning that taxpayers will foot the bill for what is becoming a middle-class welfare program, no matter the cost. The third change is that parents are dropping private insurance in favor of the cheaper and better taxpayer-funded program. Half or more of the children signed up were switched from private insurance.

Perdue intends to cap Georgia’s contribution at $20 million, which would come from savings achieved through better management of the Medicaid program. Once created, however, the pressure is immediate, persistent and intense to expand, just as was the case with PeachCare.

To be considered, too, are the behaviors we buy. At present, almost 40 percent of small business owners have sacrificed and made the responsible choice to provide medical insurance to their workers. The inevitable result of a program that offers a 33 percent subsidy is that all eligible employees will be shifted into the public program — those with and those without insurance.

It’s possible, too, that individuals will create sole proprietorships and at-home businesses for the sole purpose of qualifying.

Provisions will be made to check abuse with audits and eligibility reviews — necessary, but a workload that will require additional employees.

Clearly there is a problem that needs attention if in fact employers are not providing health insurance and employees are not buying because they can’t afford it. “I don’t know if just waiting and not doing anything is going to help,” said Dr. Rhonda Medows, commissioner of the Department of Community Health. “We are going to end up paying more in uncompensated care.”

The verdict? Depends. Can it be contained? Is it the beginning, as a key House member, State Rep. Earl Ehrhart (R-Power Springs), asserts of a new entitlement? And what behaviors — desirable and not — are we buying?

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Comments

By Mid-South Philosopher

August 11, 2007 8:04 AM | Link to this

Good morning, Jim,

I believe that national health care or socialized medicine will be disastrous to the American health care system. The anecdotal data indicates that in countries where socialized medicine is the norm, patients are burdened by massive bureaucracy (the b******* child of government) and inundated by red-tape (that terminal disease spread by both government and bureaucracy).

That being said, the corporatist dominated health care system in the United States has brought this upon itself. Making it virtually impossible for the average family to afford health care without insurance, insuring that the price of drugs has steadily risen, and exorbitant charges for medications and procedures in the hospitals (the infamous $12.00 aspirin) are all a part of the series of events that are leading to socialized medicine.

The health care providers (not the doctors and nurses, but their managerial corporatist investors) complain that they cannot make a profit. Yet, with few exceptions, we don’t see many of these folks removing their investments from their medical business endeavors. Wonder why?!?

The fact of the matter is that in the United States we already have a form of socialized medicine. No hospital is going to reject an emergency care patient, and the publicly funded hospitals are going to go further than that by providing services in the emergency room setting for the poor that are doctors’ offices services for those of us who are not quite poor. We, the taxpayers, are paying for those services, of course.

There are dangers and hardships in each, but, I guess, all things considered, I would rather see a subsidized medical insurance program (even a new entitlement) as opposed to flat-out socialized medicine.

By The BlogFather

August 11, 2007 8:33 AM | Link to this

Dont let Fed Liquidity Fixes on Wallstreet become entitlements. The Fed found $60 billion worth of pork-bellied sutures on thursday and friday alone.

Greenspan’s replacement: “I’m a fed chairman, Jim, not a doctor.”

By Woohooten

August 11, 2007 8:53 AM | Link to this

Yet if a bridge collapses in Georgia, it will be Bush’s fault and tax cuts that stole from infrastructure funding. In any event, due to Americans getting used to being led by the hand thanks to liberalism, it’s inevitable that we’ll have some form of government run health care for all.

What will that “buy” us all? Waiting rooms that are standing room only. You will see people, many elderly, who just go visit a doctor because they are lonely. Oh we’ll have people clogging waiting rooms with headaches, scratched fingers, runny noses, and lonely single moms bringing in their illegitimate child who fell off a bike and scuffed his knee. After all, it’s “free.”

The bottom line of what we will “buy” is a dependence on others to care for things that we took care of by ourselves via over the counter medicine and band aids in the 1990s, 1980s, 1970s, 1960s, …

Oh it’s going to be the time of our lives. Literally. Thanks for nothing liberals.

This global warming sucks.

By The BlogFather

August 11, 2007 8:54 AM | Link to this

The CDC is suggesting that Georgia provide free healthcare for the homeless. They are warning that any new plague that sweeps through out population will have a window of vulnerability as it steeps in the crowded-together vessels of the homeless and unworthy. That will be the front lines on the war on bio-terror.

If a single mutation occurs in any one of the dozens of new viruses that are being passed around, then we’ll see an all-inclusive-ethnic cleansing the likes of which hasn’t been seen in a thousand years. Only this time it wont be just open pustules and swollen purple tongues and bleeding from every orafice. No sir, that was nothing. This time, it will be entire intestines rushing out of people’s ears and whole brains being shat out of shriveled patoots. (and that’s just the dormant stage of the virus, you should see when it starts to party)

But go ahead, neo-diddles, aid and abbet the virus (pun intended). Your swelled heads will fit right in.

By Woohooten

August 11, 2007 9:13 AM | Link to this

CNN/Opinion Research Corp. poll: 2/3 of Americans do not support raising taxes to pay for increased state infrastructure spending.

Well now. There is still hope for this nation. People are starting to realize that the incompetent and gluttonous spending of our tax dollars by federal congressional reps, state congressional reps, and local politicians is not going to be fixed by throwing more money at the fiscal crack addicts (it’s Bush’s fault the bridge collapsed in MN for you liberals). Does anyone need my Minnesota 2006 federal spending list again given out last week?

Further, people are also starting to realize that when liberals say they will raise taxes only on the “rich,” that means that sooner or later anyone earning over $75,000/yr or anyone who invests their own income (how dare they!) will be paying more in taxes.

What we need is the liberal Dems to say they are going to raise taxes next year. If Republicans have a pair, they’ll go after that at the jugular. Tax increase proposals cost HW Bush a second election. If Republicans don’t capitalize on that, they deserve to be out of power indefinitely while we all bend over for liberalism.

By The BlogFather

August 11, 2007 9:24 AM | Link to this

Falcons did okay. Injured defensive front linemen. Offensive germ of possible threat. Cheerleader-eligible play brilliant. Special teams good enough. drop-kick play could use a little work, and the statue of liberty play turned into the flea flicker from hell, so I’d dropkick that play fast. I think maybe a hidden football trick play would work. Then I’d do an “all the linemen link arms and run pell mell up the field toward the referee” surprise play…. That should score big points in tight games. This year looks great for the falcons.

By Ray

August 11, 2007 9:35 AM | Link to this

Dittos Woohooten - Cheney/Satan ‘08

By @@

August 11, 2007 9:48 AM | Link to this

And what behaviors — desirable and not — are we buying?

Well Jim, we would all like to believe that the desirable behavior would be altruism, but hasn’t the greed of the individuals who abandoned their private insurance proved that expectation to be false. Once implemented you’ll then see apathy on the part of ALL—government included. Then comes Stage II of the cancerous socialized medicine with substandard healthcare that you have to wait…………………………………………………….to receive.

What the heck ever happened to the Patient’s Bill of Rights? On the rare occasion that I or a loved one has been hospitalized, I ask the right questions like “How much is that little pill gonna cost me?” “$12.00 for an aspirin?” “No thanks, I have a right to refuse that cost, I brought my own.”

I have the right to an appeal process on all medical bills. I use that right, and amazingly the costs are often reduced. They don’t like it when you check up on ‘em.

There have been threats of the ominous and threatening “collection agency”.

“Bring it” I tell ‘em. “We’re a cash & carry household who can send you a generous $10.00 a month until you cave on your outrageous cost demands.”

I love it!!! Our financial freedom empowers us to challenge the bureaucracy. It wasn’t easy getting to where we are. It required personal sacrifices.

By Woohooten

August 11, 2007 10:01 AM | Link to this

Ray, your brilliant post insinuating Cheney as Satan only supersedes your wit and intellect. You must be one of thosee smart liberals. Hey @ss clown, how are you going to feel when you get the wrong leg amputated because the doctor goofed and you can’t sue the government? Did you clowns on the left with your beloved socialist snake oil medicine ever think of that one?

By getalife

August 11, 2007 10:08 AM | Link to this

“War Czar says military draft may be needed:

A top US military officer in charge of coordinating the US war effort in Iraq said Friday that it makes sense to consider a return of the draft to meet the US military’s needs.”

Since all the chicken hawks will not enlist, w is going to draft you.

While you are gone, I will fight the Chinese when they nuke our economy and invade us.

By Woohooten

August 11, 2007 10:17 AM | Link to this

It doesn’t take long for the non-biased, totally objective mainstream media to blame a Bush on coal mine collapses. This is really getting quite humorous, if not already pathetic. Liberals.

ANCHOR KATIE COURIC: “Bob Murray’s mines have also been cited over and over for safety violations, but does that mean he and other mine owners are actually endangering their workers? Nancy Cordes has that part of the story.”

NANCY CORDES: “We’ve heard a lot this week about mines that rack up hundreds of violations. But what does that really mean?”

ELLEN SMITH, EDITOR OF MINE SAFETY AND HEALTH NEWS: “They don’t have guards or they’re missing on conveyor belts or on some pieces of equipment where someone could lose a finger or an arm or get their clothing entangled in the equipment.”

CORDES: “In fact, of the 31 fatalities in U.S. mines in the U.S. so far this year, the majority took place above ground involving equipment that malfunctioned or vehicles that overturned. With 324 violations, Crandall Canyon Mine in Utah has a better-than-average safety rate. But the same cannot be said of this Illinois mine owned by the same man, Robert Murray, and toured by then-Vice President Bush senior in 1984. This mine has racked up $1.4 million in proposed fines so far this year.”

By Woohooten

August 11, 2007 10:26 AM | Link to this

“Hence, we can be thankful that whatever the rest of the Northern Hemisphere may be doing, the part that holds the lion’s share of the hemisphere’s ice has been cooling for the past half-century, and at a very significant rate, making it ever more unlikely that its horde of frozen water will be released to the world’s oceans to raise havoc with global sea level any time soon.”

Somebody needs to pass that along to Nancy Pelosi and Barbara Boxer who said they “witnessed” global warming in Greenland earlier this summer. Also, please cc Al Gore and his drones. See what happens when you let emotions override rational thought? Liberal idiots.

By The BlogFather

August 11, 2007 10:30 AM | Link to this

Back to those injured defensive tackles. The Falcon defense has been stellar. Jim Mora’s defensive ideas really worked. I think he’s been unfairly treated.

But that offense. What do you do with a superstar? The Browns couldn’t win with OJ Simpson. The Raiders couldn’t win with Feldon Schwartz.

The key to a superbowl has always been the front line. Trenches.

Simply have a great front line, and you’ll win football games.

‘muff said.

By catlady

August 11, 2007 10:35 AM | Link to this

I say let’s quit pretending. Either all in or fold. I don’t think it is appropriate to further subsidize businesses or individuals—we do wwaayy too much of that at EVERY level now—but if we are going to do it, let’s not even pretend to have an appropriate cut-off point. If we have families earning $48,000 per year who “cannot afford” to insure their children, then, rather than questioning what their priorities are, let’s just insure ALL kids whose parents want it, on a sliding scale. If you don’t opt in, you are COMPLETELY responsible for your medical debt for that child, even if it means it will still be deducted to pay your debt for your children when you are receiving social security.

Why don’t we think of what behavior we should REWARD, and what behavior we want to EXTINGUISH, and craft policy around that, rather than trying to decide which group’s votes we will buy next?

By Right Thinking Conservative

August 11, 2007 10:37 AM | Link to this

I applaud the Governor for realizing a problem exists in healthcare. However, his cure cannot treat the two most devastating underlying aliments: Affordability and portability.

In order to begin, to cure our healthcare woes neither government nor business can control the money or choices for the individual. Only when the individual has total control of their healthcare funds and their healthcare choices will they have complete universal access to affordable healthcare which they will never lose.

The words of Barry Goldwater have never rung more true than as on the issue of healthcare:

A Government that is big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take it all away.

This has clearly been empirically demonstrated most recently by the Democrats SCHIP funding bill that “robs poor old senior citizen Paul to pay for sweet baby Peter!”

Michael H. Smith

By The BlogFather

August 11, 2007 10:49 AM | Link to this

That’s not what B. Goldwater said, sir. Here is the actual transcript from the speech in which that famous misquote appears: “….Any government that is pig enough to utilize the evangelical far right to glean votes, is pig enough to earmark pork for the Saudi-friendly sellouts and ruin our liberties…..”

By @@

August 11, 2007 11:03 AM | Link to this

catlady:

While I’ve come to appreciate your directness, I’m still suspiscious of the unforeseen drive of political partisanship.

I’m wary of our government’s hold on education within this country. The other day you posted that “life skills” should be taught to all of our young people. I too, would welcome that much needed curriculum. I fear, however, that a certain political party would balk at an approach that would foster independence from said party. Some conservatives would object to it as well. Those classes would have to be electives and then we wouldn’t have ALL kids required to participate for the benefit of all.

Define a dependent/child. Could it be someone whose I.Q. doesn’t warrant the ability to support themselves? I know that within special education, even adults are viewed as incapable of living on their own and therefore require government assistance.

I know that’s carrying the paranoia of government to the extreme, but I’ve watched the baby steps of liberalism bring us to where we are today—fighting for the individual while disguised in the collective efforts of socialism.

By The BlogFather

August 11, 2007 11:20 AM | Link to this

This year’s batch of Falcon cheerleaders is the lone bright spot in yesterday’s loss. They’re strong up the middle, with a great kicking game, 2.

‘muff said.

By EXIT STRATEGIST

August 11, 2007 11:40 AM | Link to this

<——-Over here Over There——->

Hey sports guy! are you lost in the blogosphere?

By jm

August 11, 2007 11:42 AM | Link to this

woohooten - are you surprised that 2/3 of american people don’t want to pay higher taxes for infrastructure repair? Judging by the amount of debt most people carry (and the size of the government’s debt), nobody really wants to pay for anything.

As Cheney said:”Reagan taught us that deficits don’t matter”.

Time to mow the lawn.

By getalife

August 11, 2007 11:47 AM | Link to this

Lets borrow another trillion from China to pay for all the gop disasters.

Geez.

By catlady

August 11, 2007 11:50 AM | Link to this

@@ I am increasingly suspicious of the disguise you spoke of. I am also suspicious of the other direction: that we must give up this, this and this to “protect” ourselves. (I have a hard time understanding how we protect ourselves by giving up our protections).

There ARe folks who need assistance due to IQ, extreme infirmity, extreme mental health issues, extreme age. Sometimes we go for overkill in “helping” them—witness the very strong sp ed lobby which has put in place very expensive public “education” for severely retarded children until they are 22, handicapped car tags for the families of mentally retarded folks, SSI payments for parents of retarded 12 year olds, etc.

However, at some point we lost sight of the fact that if your family has trouble, YOUR FAMILY takes care of it. We have gotten used to dumping everything on the government and its agencies, and feel entitled to the government “repaying” us for our suffering. (Of course, by the government, I mean US)

I read an interesting book the other day about how much money is to be made off the poor/hungry. Cannot recall its name, but it claims that through tax credits, etc, we are being double whammied on behalf of the poor by money-making entities, all in the name of “charity”.

One thing “life skills”, which we used to call the school of hard knocks until we decided that no one deserved hard knocks, could try to teach is PLANNING AHEAD. For example, if you plan to have children, you need to be planning for a career that allows you to x, y, and z. Here are the educational requirements to get that career. It is hard enough to plan ahead for UNEXPECTED things, but how could it be “unexpected” if you drop out of high school and then find out you are not going to be making $50,000 a year? Yet our feel-good, no-failure school settings encourage just such magical thinking! So we have kids robbing the shoes off other kids because they “deserve” to have the nice things, too.

I see that graduation coaches have been moved into the middle school. What a waste of money! For my dissertation, I reviewed an article entitled “Conversations in the Nursery: How Students get to College” or something like that. We have got a lot of undoing of too many years of us feeling sorry for you = you continuing your sorry behavior, and we need leaders with some vision to get us started down that path. I don’t see any leaders like that from where I sit.

If our leaders would consider the “collateral damage” their policies cause, it would be a good start.

By Woohooten

August 11, 2007 12:00 PM | Link to this

Lets borrow another trillion from China to pay for all the gop disasters.

Getalife is a compulsive pathological liar like the Clintons. China owns a massive 4% of our national debt. Yet that’s the only nation those hysterical liberal idiots ever mention.

By getalife

August 11, 2007 12:13 PM | Link to this

Wooten should retire,

It is the estimated cost of the Iraq occupation to the end of w’s term.

wooten never writes about that entitlement. Iraqi welfare good, any money spent on Americans bad. Pathetic.

Geez.

By Woohooten

August 11, 2007 12:18 PM | Link to this

What do you get when you have a former military captain who’s against the Iraqi war and a current military reservist Lt. Col. who is is for finishing the job in Iraq and put them both on Hardball?

Well, if the former captain is the individual responsible for telling a US soldier to shut up at a YearlyKos convention and the Lt. Col. once flew the nuclear football around, you have quite a show.

Soltz, the Kos captain hero - “I love the Army, and my greatest hour I ever had in my life was leading soldiers into war.”

Soltz, the bio - From May to September 2003, Soltz served as a Captain during Operation Iraqi Freedom, deploying logistics convoys with the 1st Armored Division”

It sounds to me like Soltz is Kerry light - overselling himself with a four month tour of duty. Telling grunts where to drive a forklift and place pallets is not my idea of leading grunts into combat. Typical liberal. Leave it to the Daily Kos to have this moron.

Note Soltz’s typical liberal tactic of attempting to out shout, talk over, and interrupt his opponent. Pathetic cretin.

By getalife

August 11, 2007 12:28 PM | Link to this

POS,

Stop spitting on Iraq war vets.

GFY loser.

By Woohooten

August 11, 2007 12:58 PM | Link to this

Anyone who finds honor in Murtha pre-judging fellow Marines of murder, or finds honor in a former Captain not allowing a US soldier to tell his side of the story while at a wingnut Kos convention because it just might contradict the theme, is the ultimate POS. All three deserve zero respect.

By The BlogFather

August 11, 2007 12:59 PM | Link to this

Getalife is making a vick chew toy out of boohooten. And boohooten’s comebacks are stretched and bitten, like he’s expecting a scooby snack for trying to write the great american novel with every comment, and instead, coming across like the unplugged version of the boxed set of the famous dog-barked christmas carol album from the sixties. (or a straight Truman Capote).

To remedy Blowhooten’s writer’s block, I recommend he only use iambic pentameter for a whole year. Haiku his IQ.

Back to the Falcon cheerleaders. I did notice that they seem more buxom, and you gotta love that. More bounce per cheer.

‘muff said

By The BlogFather

August 11, 2007 1:04 PM | Link to this

Getalife and Boohooten: Tag team cheek squeegees.

‘muff said

By Woohooten

August 11, 2007 1:07 PM | Link to this

Liberal hypocrisy, thy name becomes thee. When once we could see, for now, we can only pee.

Pee, that is, when our hypocrisy is exposed by the pajama media. Then we can only turn to a crusade of sexual orientation exploration.

Exposed like a Daily Kos wingnut who got busted for inflating stock valuations.

Rather ironic how a liberal Dem wingnut site that whimpers so much about greedy corporations, evil profiteering, and how capitalism is bad has a writer that goes all three ways.

By Woohooten

August 11, 2007 1:13 PM | Link to this

To remedy Blowhooten’s writer’s block,

LogFather, I simply report facts, you decide. This is not a Condom House Book audition site, although I am highly suspicious of your virtual rectal prophylactic tactics.

By @@

August 11, 2007 1:14 PM | Link to this

Woohooten goes all three ways: snotty, grotty, and naughty.

By @@

August 11, 2007 1:15 PM | Link to this

catlady:

@@ I am increasingly suspicious of the disguise you spoke of. I am also suspicious of the other direction: that we must give up this, this and this to “protect” ourselves. (I have a hard time understanding how we protect ourselves by giving up our protections).

Can I assume that with ^^^ that statement you may be eluding to the Patriot Act? I see the Patriot Act as providing for security against our enemies, and in the interest of ALL Americans.

Long before the Patriot Act, my calls to government offices, healthcare providers, customer service and the like were being monitored for quality control purposes. There are those who have access to my internet activity for the purpose of contact based on product interest, not to mention hackers and spammers. I’m observed on video in government facilities, retail establishments, banking offices, in traffic…the list goes on and on so I don’t get too upset when the government wants to protect me from the enemy. Precedence for such surveillance was established during WWII and we have rebounded from that government intervention.

*I see that graduation coaches have been moved into the middle school. What a waste of money!

Agreed!

*For my dissertation, I reviewed an article entitled “Conversations in the Nursery: How Students get to College” or something like that. We have got a lot of undoing of too many years of us feeling sorry for you = you continuing your sorry behavior,

A lot of undoing? Again, I agree.

and we need leaders with some vision to get us started down that path.

Are you saying that conservative judges on the Supreme Court can assist in the endeavor to promote moral, ethical and personal accountability?

I don’t see any leaders like that from where I sit.

Now I have a feeling that this is where you and I may disagree. I do see those leaders and they’re in the Republican party as well as some fresh new blue dogs in the Democratic party.

Yet our feel-good, no-failure school settings encourage just such magical thinking! So we have kids robbing the shoes off other kids because they “deserve” to have the nice things, too.

I agree with your first sentence and have lots of “flip flops” I can offer in amends for my former liberalism which had me believing that the Democrats had anything “nice” to offer to those left barefoot.

Out to do some yardwork. Enjoy your weekend. Thanks for the exchange.

By Woohooten

August 11, 2007 1:25 PM | Link to this

Speaking of Hiditha, here are two soldiers who got charges dropped.

Do you think Murtha will apologize for calling them murderers before a trial even got planned? Zero respect.

By getalife

August 11, 2007 1:29 PM | Link to this

Again, too stupid to see Murtha exposed this cover up before the Iraqis.

Idiot.

By @@

August 11, 2007 1:32 PM | Link to this

Go, Getalife, GO!

By @@

August 11, 2007 1:34 PM | Link to this

I’ve grown all too accustomed to it, but the INTELLECTUALLY AND PHYSICALLY LIMP NOODLE BlogFarter namejacked me at 1:14.

I’ll return later to enjoy the leftover noodle pudding that Woohooten prepares using only the BlogFarter’s posts as required ingredients.

I know….I know BlogFarter…I’m so hate-filled blah blah blah?

By Paul

August 11, 2007 1:44 PM | Link to this

I agree with @@. I like Getalife’s style. Woohooten stinks. He must listen to Rush all day, and Hannity at night. Are there only hacks on this blog?

By BlogFather

August 11, 2007 1:47 PM | Link to this

LIAR!

By getalife

August 11, 2007 1:48 PM | Link to this

“france’s model healthcare system:

although the french system faces many challenges, the world health organization rated it the best in the world in 2001 because of its universal coverage, responsive healthcare providers, patient and provider freedoms, and the health and longevity of the country’s population. the united states ranked 37.

the french system is also not inexpensive. at $3,500 per capita it is one of the most costly in europe, yet that is still far less than the $6,100 per person in the united states.

no french soldiers have died in iraq. french citizens pay half what americans do for better health care. do the french chuckle when right wing hacks in america mock them, or do they merely indulge themselves with a gallic shrug and a smile?”

By BlogFather

August 11, 2007 1:52 PM | Link to this

@@, I never did jack your ID. You can always tell if it’s me cause I always end my comments with “‘muff said”. I cant help it, I have to say that everytime I blog. It’s my achilles heel. Now, did you see anyone write, “muff said”, in your namejack?

Didn’t think so.

‘Muff said.

By AmVet

August 11, 2007 1:57 PM | Link to this

Good afternoon all.

Woohooten, interesting story about Capt. Jon Solz, I did some quick research and determined a couple of things.

First, I have not seen any videos or read any transcripts of the event in question, but I think I have a pretty good idea.

Some fellow argued that the surge was working and the anti-war Capt. had a cow. He apparently berated the young man for making a grievous sin - of speaking at a political event while in a Class A green uniform.

Was he using this mistake to cover up his disagreement with this private? To his shame, probably.

And IF he has mis-stated his military record then double the shame. But it seems to me the man has seen combat.

But, nonetheless, the sergeant’s mistake is completely inexcusable. Unless things have changed 180 degrees since I was in; everybody, and I mean everybody, was warned countless times about this.

The fear, and rightfully so, is that a member of the Armed Forces could appear at any event IN UNIFORM, not just political, and say or do something that would bring dishonor to the military. I agree with the policy that it simply cannot be allowed. The young man was apparently a willful fool for doing so and deserves receiving the appropriate military justice.

But much more importantly to me, is the inference that this Captain was some sort of flunky and did nothing more than Telling grunts where to drive a forklift and place pallets is not my idea of leading grunts into combat.

You were not there and all of your silly speculation doesn’t change the irrefutable fact that you really have no idea what this soldier did and didn’t do overseas at ANY point in his military career.

And this completely flies in the face of your assertion at 1:13 that “I simply report facts, you decide.”

Well, to me, it looks like you do very much more than just report facts.

But of course, I too don’t have any context with within these statements were made, nor do I know this soldier’s exact record, so it’s hard to know the veracity, or lack thereof, of the Colonel’s point.

But the difference is, I won’t engage in idle speculation or promote complete intellectual dishonesty.

I do know that this Captain served his country with distinction in the Kosovo Campaign as a Tank Platoon Leader between June and December 2000.

And as you partly noted From May to September 2003, Soltz served as a Captain during Operation Iraqi Freedom, deploying logistics convoys with the 1st Armored Division in Iraq. In 2005 Captain Soltz was mobilized to train soldiers for combat in Afghanistan and Iraq.

And this is something that chaps my a$$; this shameless proclivity by the right to “swift-boat” those they disagree with politically. And many, many times it is by people who’s only experience in a “theater” was at the movies!

For every combat soldier or fighter pilot there are literally thousands of other people behind the scenes, many of them in-country, making it possible and efficient. If they are killed or wounded for whatever reason, each of them is still there and putting their money where their mouth is. And the risks are extremely real.

And I don’t care if its because of a bus or helicopter crash, or a forklift falls on them or a rocket they’re handling blows up.

Every last one of them, in addition to the combat soldier and fighter pilot, deserves respect for that service and sacrifice.

And the lack of respect these men sometimes receive is, to me, eerily similar to the stories of the reception the anti-war Viet Nam veterans got when they came home.

Kerry was excoriated and his courage and valor discounted completely by countless of the never-served neo-cons for apparently not making enough trips up and down that river and not getting into enough firefights!! (And I’ve already heard it all before - the three “bandaid” Purple Hearts, etc. so save it for someone who thinks that changes one damned thing.)

Cleland was humiliated by his GOP opponent for supposedly lacking courage!!! (And only a tiny few in the GOP had the nads to say this was utterly disgusting, and GWB was not one of them) And I’ve heard stories of some who demeaned him because he had three limbs blown off when a buddies grenade went off (mishandled?) as opposed to being injured in actual combat!!

This a battle the far right should leave be. They cannot win it and they almost always only bring disrepute upon themselves for challenging the courage of men defending us overseas, especially when they never have and never will themselves.

And why? Again ONLY because they detest their anti-war opinions.

Unless of course, those with such clarity and infallible judgement are willing to walk a mile, or drive a tank for a mile, in Capt. Solz’s shoes.

I will give him the benefit of the doubt.

By Woohooten

August 11, 2007 1:57 PM | Link to this

Woohooten stinks. He must listen to Rush all day, and Hannity at night.

RuePaul, perhaps you could show me where I’ve said something those two have said? I mean, I have a day job and a night life and don’t get the opportunity to listen to the radio much, AM, FM, or XM. I sure don’t want to have one of those men go after me for plagiarism. I never say you idiot liberal sheep get your thoughts from Huffington, Salon, Kos, Hardball, Cynthia Tucker, etc. etc. No, I’m more mature than that. Idiots.

By BlogFather

August 11, 2007 1:58 PM | Link to this

CuttheGeez, did you mean gallic shrug, or garlic shrug? It IS after all, France, where the french have a particular genius with food…..

‘puff pastry

By Paul

August 11, 2007 2:07 PM | Link to this

All you do, boohooten, is google some data, post links, and then call someone an idiot. Never an insight, never anything new, or clever, or fun.

You stink.

By Woohooten

August 11, 2007 2:12 PM | Link to this

The fear, and rightfully so, is that a member of the Armed Forces could appear at any event IN UNIFORM, not just political, and say or do something that would bring dishonor to the military.

AmVet, the soldier just wanted to say that from what he saw, the surge was working. Those at the Kos convention said it was not. That is not political the last time I checked. In any event, there will be report out in September revealing the results to date. Until then, I don’t feel anyone should open their mouths about it, especially in a negative way when troops are still over there fighting. In my opinion, that’s backstabbing those who covered your back in one way or another. Or as you put it, every last forklift operator.

Regarding Kerry, he has not ever refuted what the Swifties claimed, nor has he brought libel against them. That’s about all I need to know of Kerry’s credentials, who I suspect of joining the military solely because he knew it would help his political career.

By Woohooten

August 11, 2007 2:18 PM | Link to this

All you do, boohooten, is google some data, post links, and then call someone an idiot.

Yeah, those straight up fact things don’t sit well with you liberals, do they?

Never an insight, never anything new, or clever, or fun.

Oh come now, what do you think I did at 1:13 and 1:17? You see only what you want to see, RuPaul. Finally, I don’t consider taking other people’s blog names and posting false comments as clever or fun. Maybe you do, but I don’t.

Finally,

By getalife

August 11, 2007 2:23 PM | Link to this

w is setting a shining example

Geez.

By @@

August 11, 2007 2:26 PM | Link to this

Well BlogFarter, I guess your whole brains must have been shat out of your shriveled patoot when you “muffed” up your “muff said” at 8:33, 8:54, 9:24, 10:30 & 10:49.

Do you envision yourself as the liberal’s blog “dick”tater?

SPUDSCUD, I may be back or not, but then again, maybe…..

By AmVet

August 11, 2007 2:47 PM | Link to this

Woohooten, thanks for the response.

Just in case you missed the gravity of the transgression, ANY soldier appearing at ANY Kos convention in uniform is begging for an Article 15.

As to you argument Until then, I don’t feel anyone should open their mouths about it, especially in a negative way when troops are still over there fighting. In my opinion, that’s backstabbing those who covered your back in one way or another.

And you are entitled to your opinions.

And exercising my same right, I say bull hockey!

Right before shock and awe I remember Bill O’Reilly saying that any American who continues to protest after the bombs start falling on Baghdad is un-American.

The next night he came on and said he had misspoken. And for a brief moment I thought, oh my goodness, maybe this guy does have some integrity after all! But, alas, I should have known better. His correction? Those people weren’t un-American they were just bad Americans.

At that point, I knew he was just another hopeless Bush administration hack.

This argument that the anti-Iraq war voice in this country is a bad thing and emboldens the enemy is just ludicrous. Would you really want an America where there was none?

It is one of a tiny few things that truly separates us from our enemies! It is our strength, not our weakness!

And the intense desire by this administration and its supporters to effectively silence or dismiss that voice is one of the many troubling things about them.

I have asked this question before. If every single American man, woman and child was 100% behind this occupation, would the insurgents/terrorists fight any less fierce? Would they all just give up? Of course not! That fact didn’t deter the Nazis or the Japanese at all.

This is a nonsensical argument that will never be proven by the right wing.

(Kerry) who I suspect of joining the military solely because he knew it would help his political career.

And you’re entitled to your suspicions. But to the heart of the matter, BFD. Tell me what the hell does that to do with anything? Explain to me how he would have had a political career had he been KIA on the Mekong River? If you indict him, why not indict Eisenhower, Kennedy, Carter and both Bushes, amongst countless others, as well?

You and I both know why.

So your comments about Kerry’s “lack of a litigious defense” against those disgusting partisans of the GOP, also does not change one thing I said. They engaged in the most heinous political attack much to the joy of their “leaders”.

And this legacy of the most virulent slimeball tactics, I think, is coming home to roost for the neo-cons.

By Duh stands for Democrat

August 11, 2007 3:19 PM | Link to this

{{{{San Francisco city officials are trying to force taxpayers to pay for immigrants’ green cards and citizenship – and to bolster their case for the new tax, they’ve introduced a resolution condemning national radio talk-show host Michael Savage for what they call his “defamatory language … against immigrants.”}}}}

Dat be Blinky’s hometown, probably her idea too.

It’s sounds like the way most of these libs handle differing opinions and debate.

They shower you with ignorance.

Believe me, there is a reason that democrats cannot discuss their thoughts or subject them to scrutiny.

It’s because most of them are depraved.

~~~~~

So waht is the mission of the space shuttle?

They spend a couple billion to aim this thing at low Earth orbit, belch massive amounts of carbon, rivaling only al-Gore for energy consumption, when it blasts off, they rip a huge hole in their “environmentally friendly” foam, and then hope they can land the thing in one piece.

For what?

~~~~~

{{{{The major powers, especially France under President Nicolas Sarkozy, who did not inherit his predecessor’s anti-American bitterness over the Iraqi disaster, now see a role for the U.N., with full backing from the 27-nation European Union, that would enable the U.S. to phase out. This would involve giving Iraq a similar status to Kosovo pending its graduation to full-fledged independence. Thus, Iraq’s sovereignty would be held in abeyance pending a new post-Saddam political settlement. But this would require a major increment of peacekeepers, preferably from Arab and other Muslim countries.}}}}

~~~~~

{{{{Republicans returning to the House floor on Friday morning Aug. 3 after their walkout the night before were surprised to find as presiding officer the Democrat they call “King Corruption”: Rep. John Murtha of Pennsylvania, master of earmarks and backroom deals.}}}}

Nice nickname.

~~~~~

From the Nation, a publication full of libs if there ever was one:

{{{{How the Democrats Blew It in Only 8 Months. Led by Democrats since the start of this year, Congress now has a “confidence” rating of 14 percent, the lowest since Gallup started asking the question in 1973 and five points lower than Republicans scored last year.}}}}

~~~~~

What really frosts me about the Newsweek story is that it concentrates on industry funding for skeptics while ignoring the money that pours into pro-global-warming coffers. That focus ignores where the big grant money goes — to pay for crisis-mongering research. Or as Reid Bryson, the father of scientific climatology, told the Capital Times in Madison, Wis., “If you want to be an eminent scientist, you have to have a lot of grad students and a lot of grants. You can’t get grants unless you say, ‘Oh, global warming, yes, yes, carbon dioxide.’”

By @@

August 11, 2007 3:32 PM | Link to this

Let this be a lesson. Nobody asked, but I’m gonna share something my Dad, retired from the military after 27 years service, said about politics and the military. Here goes….

“No military man worth his salt would ever stand atop his service on a political platform because to do so sullies the integrity of his uniform.”

My DAD said that so any comebacks should proceed with caution. Grrrrrr!

Politicians can display their service in their bio, but don’t display it in the political arena. Be proud, but be humble.

By getalife

August 11, 2007 3:37 PM | Link to this

They are looking for a new planet to live on.

Duh.

By Woohooten

August 11, 2007 3:40 PM | Link to this

Just in case you missed the gravity of the transgression, ANY soldier appearing at ANY Kos convention in uniform is begging for an Article 15.

And I’m so sure if he had backed up what was said at YearKos (the surge isn’t working, as if how in the hell would they know), he would have been threatened too. Yeah. Right. Sure.

If every single American man, woman and child was 100% behind this occupation, would the insurgents/terrorists fight any less fierce? Would they all just give up? Of course not! That fact didn’t deter the Nazis or the Japanese at all.

We’ll just have to agree to disagree. We didn’t have a media back then like we do now. Vietnam was the first war that had real media affect people’s attitudes of it, both at home and the enemy abroad. The VC were all over our media and protests, and it gave them encouragement. Do you believe that Hanoi Jane didn’t embolden the VC? Do you REALLY believe that?

And you’re entitled to your suspicions. But to the heart of the matter, BFD. Tell me what the hell does that to do with anything?

Why that’s simple. Because Kerry made a BFD out of being a Vietnam veteran. In fact, it was injected into just about every speech he ever made when being a Vet even had little to zero to do with the topic at hand! No other politician has ever done that, not the least of which is John McCain, who was a guest of the VC that Hanoi Jane was so chummy with. How many times did JFK mention he was a WWII hero?

By getalife

August 11, 2007 4:16 PM | Link to this

Get ready for the draft chicken hawks

Geez.

By @@

August 11, 2007 4:35 PM | Link to this

Good grief Getalife, I thought it was the right-wing nuts that were afraid to serve.

Why are they posting the threat over at DailyKos?

Could it be because…..??????

I know why, the left needs another protest. All of their latest attempts have been met with disappointment.

bwa <———- btw, what does “bwa” mean?

By getalife

August 11, 2007 4:38 PM | Link to this

How a ‘Good War’ in Afghanistan Went Bad

Two failed occupations, cheney war mongering on Iran and the Dems on Pakistan.

Poor chicken hawks better get mommy and daddy to you out of this draft.

In times like these it is good to be old, right duh?

Geez.

By AmVet

August 11, 2007 4:40 PM | Link to this

Woohooten, as I am cautiously unswayed by some of your claims, this one Because Kerry made a BFD out of being a Vietnam veteran. In fact, it was injected into just about every speech he ever made when being a Vet even had little to zero to do with the topic at hand! forces me to ask for much credible evidence of these innumerable instances. Otherwise, it appears to be more rhetoric and hyperbole.

I do know that the Bush campaign and it’s quasi-hit man organizations unquestionably did make a big deal out of Kerry’s service. Much like their attacks on another combat hero, John McCain, they proved to a nation that they would stoop to the lowest possible levels to discredit combat veterans in the most shameless ways possible. And again, to this day it reflects terribly on them and those who still support such slimy tactics.

I think your discernment of the role of the media in WWII is a bit naive. Are you suggesting that after four plus years, the axis powers had no inkling of the world’s almost universal opinion of them? Or that they had NO access to the free press, especially radio reports by the entire Western world?

The Japs and Nazis knew beyond the shadow of a doubt that virtually every human being on the planet hated them and wished them dead. It did not matter one iota.

In fact, to demonstrate just how far off I think you are on this topic, I’ll share this equally controversial opinion.

And that is that trying to silence the anti-war voice in this country is much more plausibly what exactly emboldens the enemy. They must love it when so many here try to say that there is ONLY one way to win and that is to believe in no tolerance, no debate, just blind loyalty.

When they see us gutting habeus corpus and using questionably legal wire tapping on our own citizens, when they see us chasing down Mexicans in the desert in the name of “the war on terrorism”, when they see us cycling the same troops over there three, four and five times, all in the name of security, they know they are on the way to getting us to try and give up to a very large degree the very essence of the thing that separates us - freedom.

And the dirtball leaders of these organizations must dance with joy knowing that we can be so easily manipulated by them and an incompetent administration into believing these idiotic claims by the Vice President and others and misstatements of fact by the President and that this lunacy in Iraq is the correct path for us to take.

Where is OBL? What is going to happen in Afghanistan and Pakistan? When will we ever get our sh1t together regarding Israel and it’s neighbors? What is the future of our relationship with so many other Islamic countries?

Hard to say isn’t it? Especially when we are getting our best guys killed (needlessly?) in a self-made quagmire in a land where an extremely high percentage of its occupants will NEVER really want, implement or maintain a true democracy. Or even a semblance thereof.

And as much as I hope I am wrong, I think the American people are just fooling themselves, because if the Iraqi people did want it that badly, they would have already shrugged off the Baathists and implemented it on their own. And they would have demonstrated much, much more resolve to make progress in the past few years. And they have not.

For evidence about this senseless and failed notion of “exporting democracy to the Middle East” just ask the Lebanese about free elections and Hamas.

By getalife

August 11, 2007 4:45 PM | Link to this

@@,

It was a top AP story and all over the blogtopia.

BTW, you were wrong about the gays for Giuliani.

It is for real.

By Woohooten

August 11, 2007 5:13 PM | Link to this

…(Kerry touting his Vet status) forces me to ask for much credible evidence of these innumerable instances. Otherwise, it appears to be more rhetoric and hyperbole.

AmVet, you are kidding me, right? Did you not listen to any of his campaign speeches in 1999 and debates in 2000? Even @@ acknowledged it at 3:32. Are challenging me to bring up links or videos of his comments? That may require some work, but I can do it. One “forum” I remember clearly. When asked about health care and needs of poor children, Kerry started off with, “When I was in Vietnam…” To deny that Kerry ran strongly on his Vietnam Veteran status is delusional at best, especially considering no other politician has ever done so.

I think your discernment of the role of the media in WWII is a bit naive.

I didn’t say they didn’t have media back then. I simply stated that the media back then didn’t have the power that they have today. Mike Wallace for example visits Iran and tells the president he looks like a “fine man.” We aren’t at war with that nation of course (yet), but that’s not the point. Did CBS do that to Hitler in Germany in 1938?

All you need to do to look at the proof of the power of the media today, in a specific instance, is look at how Al Qaeda regurgitates what our media reports, and more specifically if not tragically, what anti-war activists and Dems say in Washington.

The Japs and Nazis knew beyond the shadow of a doubt that virtually every human being on the planet hated them and wished them dead. It did not matter one iota.

Huh? The Nazis hated those who were not white Christians. The Japanese hated “imperial America” who was “stealing” oil and other natural resources from them. WTF are you talking about?

When they see us gutting habeus corpus and using questionably legal wire tapping on our own citizens,

They are not tapping calls from New York to California. They are tapping calls from Pakistan to Michigan. Or Iran to New York. That said, I think with all the hoopla over this, perhaps we shouldn’t be doing it. That way, when we do get attacked again, I won’t have to hear people say Bush didn’t do everything he could have to prevent the attack.

Where is OBL?

I don’t know. Dems say they will go find him, but yet don’t offer a plan of action. Obama says he’ll invade Pakistan. In any event, Clinton had the chance to get Osama, but passed because there was not enough on him (we always have to wait to be attacked for some reason).

What is going to happen in Afghanistan and Pakistan?

We have no business invading western Pakistan as Obama insanely insinuated, and Afghanistan needs a step up. When we had the opportunity to bomb a burial ceremony in Afghanistan a few years ago with dozens of Al Qaeda leaders, we chose to not do so. That’s not how you treat those monsters.

Regarding Iraq, it wasn’t the people. It was the “leader” of the people. Perhaps we should have done nothing. Perhaps we should have done nothing in 1991 when he invaded Kuwait. One way or another, there will be a massive war in the Middle East. I don’t know when, but it will happen. Israel spanked 3 Arab nations in six days in the sky and the ground, and the Arabs want more blood. As Iran said, they want Israel destroyed. Not one of the Arab nations want to exist with Israel sans perhaps the UAE, and there is a growing hostility towards the West and any non-Muslims in general.

Regarding Hamas and free elections and “democracy,” the Nazi party was freely elected too.

By getalife

August 11, 2007 5:19 PM | Link to this

Freaking wingnuts

Geez.

By Woohooten

August 11, 2007 5:19 PM | Link to this

Any @ss clown who thinks we’ll really have a draft in this nation sans massive global conflict is a Kos Kid. Rangel was laughed out the door by his colleagues who wouldn’t touch that steaming turd with a wireless connection.

Yeah, that means you, Getalife.

By Woohooten

August 11, 2007 5:35 PM | Link to this

A Muslim terrorist sympathizer is kicked off the Homeland Security panel. Wait, let me re-read that. A Muslim terrorist sympathizer is kicked off the Homeland Security panel. Hmm. I guess diversity isn’t all that.

Wingnuts indeed.

Then we have Muslim honor killings. Wingnuts indeed.

By getalife

August 11, 2007 5:42 PM | Link to this

Scared of a draft like you are of Muslims right boohooten?

Coward.

By Woohooten

August 11, 2007 5:42 PM | Link to this

Oops.

Did you not listen to any of his (Kerry’s) campaign speeches in 1999 and debates in 2000?

I meant to say 2003 and 2004 obviously. Oh well, who can fault me for getting Gore and Kerry confused at losing?

By Woohooten

August 11, 2007 5:45 PM | Link to this

A Muslim who converted to Christianity is fearing for his life. Wingnuts.

Right, Getalife? Idiot. Zero respect.

By Woohooten

August 11, 2007 5:53 PM | Link to this

Scared of a draft like you are of Muslims right boohooten?

No peckerwood, I’m not. Too bad our enemies are too cowardly to fight us face to face. That said, I’d like to see the first congressperson vote for a draft and explain his or her vote to the local district from where he or she came. That would truly be a Kodak moment.

By AmVet

August 11, 2007 5:58 PM | Link to this

To the extent that Kerry played up his military service, I agree that this wasn’t terribly humble or effective. To the extent that the Rove smear machine did what they did makes that absolutely pale in comparison.

Given the current debacle in Iraq, I can understand how the term invasion gets bandied about, but Woohooten, once again I believe you have used considerable “poetic license” when you falsely assert Obama says he’ll invade Pakistan.

He spoke of doing something that I think is strategically correct - surgical air strikes anywhere, anytime.

And didn’t the President say as much years ago when he said “Any nation that harbors terrorists…blah, blah, blah”?

Empty words from a GOP administration that clearly has no idea how to effectively prosecute a war.

If you really want to win this so-called war, then dammit, get everything necessary in place to do it. No more of this p***-footing around and half steps.

Like Sherman, throw everything you’ve got at them until they either quit or take a nice long break.

With that said, perhaps the draft isn’t a bad idea. On several levels. We all know that the Armed Forces are stretched to their very limits. Hell even the Guard and the Reserves are.

This would also alleviate the situation where some of the guys are being cycled over and over and over to the ME. It ain’t fair when we have so many young uber-patriots at home who could and should share the load, is it not?

And mandatory military service is the reality in many other countries including our bestest ally Israel.

And at the risk of being Kerry-like I am very glad to say that my only son, who has followed in my foot steps, has recently enlisted in the US Armed Forces during a time of war.

I could not be more proud of him.

By Jackie

August 11, 2007 6:00 PM | Link to this

It seems to me those who question a soldier in combat situations have never been there themselves. They don’t know what it is to be shot at and be concerned about injury and amputation. These same yahoos have the nerve to say that Kerry and Cleland were not patriotic or not brave enough to have received their commendations. Wait for the draft neo-cons. You will get a chance to prove your courage under fire.

By jm

August 11, 2007 6:04 PM | Link to this

Mr. Wooten, one of these days, it would be interesting to hear you look at any military issue with as critical an eye as you do any social issue. It seems if there is just a hint of military, you are willing to give a blank check, regardless of the merit of the issue. More and more each day, the prescience of President Eisenhower’s warning about the military industrial ring true.

By Woohooten

August 11, 2007 6:09 PM | Link to this

To the extent that the Rove smear machine did what they did makes that absolutely pale in comparison.

AmVet, the Swifties were private individuals who got sick of Kerry using his service as a political bargaining chip. To say Rove had anything to do with that reduces my respect for you immensely.

He spoke of doing something that I think is strategically correct - surgical air strikes anywhere, anytime.

That’s funny. Clinton never mentioned “invasion” when lobbing a few cruise missiles around the ME.

And didn’t the President say as much years ago when he said “Any na