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DEL.ICIO.USDubious polls often serve devious goals
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
The numbers are, quite frankly, overwhelming.
The depth of knowledge expressed by ordinary Georgians about a public policy issue now being debated in Congress is breathtaking. Such are the findings of a University of Georgia Survey Research Center poll conducted for an advocacy group funded as a condition of Blue Cross and Blue Shield of Georgia’s 1996 conversion to a for-profit company. About 20 percent of the stock, then amounting to $80 million, was set aside in the Healthcare Georgia Foundation to help increase “access to primary health care and preventive services for underserved individuals and communities.”
The poll, released last week, purports to show that two-thirds of Georgians think the “state doesn’t spend enough on health care,” according to headlines. While it’s doubtful that one Georgian in a thousand could come within $50 million of guessing the amount spent on PeachCare ($385 million), they are overwhelmingly united in stating an opinion that supports the sponsor’s agenda.
The findings of the survey are simply astounding — and surely dramatic enough to intimidate any Georgia state legislator who might be tempted to rein in out-of-control spending for PeachCare. That’s a 10-year-old program that provides taxpayer-subsidized health care coverage for children whose parents earn too much to qualify for Medicaid, a program to serve the poor. PeachCare was projected to run out of money in Georgia this year, requiring an immediate $81 million infusion in this year’s supplemental budget.
House Speaker Glenn Richardson (R-Hiram) offered a bill that wouldn’t affect anybody now enrolled legally in PeachCare, but would modestly curtail future spending. As passed the Senate, the bill would actually increase spending.
It is an emotional debate, both in Georgia and in Congress. While the program didn’t exist at all a decade ago, its supporters present it now as something that will cause death, school failure and calamity on the scale of Al Gore’s global warming if benefits are curtailed so much as a dime.
The survey conducted by UGA pollsters under contract to the Healthcare Georgia Foundation utilized questions drawn from similar polling for another advocacy group, the New England Alliance for Children’s Health in Boston. In the UGA survey, 100 percent said PeachCare funding should be kept at the same level, given more money or given enough funding to cover current members. Fully 80 percent favor expanding it.
Walk into any coffee shop anywhere in Georgia and ask any question that requires knowledge of PeachCare’s funding level or of the public policy issue being debated and you’re likely to draw blank looks. And yet 500 Georgians who picked up the telephone did.
What to conclude? Clearly the issue has to be framed for respondents. And it was. While the reported sample was 500, it was drawn from 2,166 and had a cooperation rate of 37.4 percent, according to Research Center Director James S. Bason. So when the client interprets results as “a message to legislators that people don’t want this program cut, that it works” some context is needed.
For one, those who participated were given a premise. “PeachCare for Kids is a state program that provides low-cost health care coverage to children in low-income working families, whose parents can’t afford insurance and do not get insurance from their employers,” the survey-takers said. “The program is run by the state, and costs are shared by the federal and state governments. Parents share the cost by paying monthly premiums for their children’s health insurance.”
Loaded words and phrases aside, that’s not an entirely factual statement. The Congressional Budget Office found that for every 100 children enrolled, “there is a corresponding reduction in private coverage of between 25 and 50 children.” Obviously some parents could afford and some employers did provide health insurance, but parents chose the taxpayer-subsidized alternative as cheaper and better.
If given any number of other facts — that, for example, citizenship and income weren’t verified, and that in recent weeks a quarter-horse had been signed up, or that benefits were more generous than those provided state employees — responses undoubtedly would have been different.
Polls and studies undertaken to influence policy and public opinion are often described as “nonpartisan” or coming from “nonprofit” organizations or foundations. That is not the same as saying they are unbiased.
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Comments
By jbmlaw
May 22, 2007 8:09 AM | Link to this
Good morning all. I can imagine 80% of Georgians saying, “Yes, please raise my taxes because I think the salaries of people in the medical industry are not high enough.” Healthcare Georgia Foundation has a tough sell, so why should we begrudge a lobbying group for shaping questions to ensure the answers fit their wants? Maybe this is why people do not trust lobbyists.
By Curious Observer
May 22, 2007 8:34 AM | Link to this
The real issue is not poll questions, but an out-of-control medical insurance industry that seeks profit from the misfortunes of others. After all, Georgia does not run its own medical insurance plan; there is always a for-profit insurer in the background, anxious to see a perpetuation of the profits it earns from administering a state plan.
Thousands of HMO and other insurance executives work tirelessly to use their negotiating skills on largely foreign-born medical professionals and develop insurance plans that will result in million-dollar bonuses for them and minimal benefits for those patients they cover. We tolerate this disgrace, under the false assumption that it promotes “competition” in the “free market.”
In reality, there is no true competition, nor is there a free market. The medical profession is the closest thing to a medieval trade guild that we have. Don’t believe it? Just try to get into a medical school without the recommendation of a guild member—in this case, a licensed physician. And the number of licensed physicians is restricted by caps placed on admissions by medical schools and by physician-run licensing bodies. The demand is there, but the supply is heavily regulated.
Certainly the “poll” that Wooten cites is laughable. But it is only a symptom of a much larger disease. That disease cannot be justified or treated with a claim that we have the best medical industry in the world—clearly we don’t. Rather, a substantial part of our problems with the medical/medical insurance industry is our delusion that it operates under a free market. While we willingly impose restrictions on the utility industry in recognition of the potential for abuse, we refuse to see the false assumptions we make in addressing medical care. Peachcare and other state-run programs like Medicaid are only a minor part of a much larger problem. That problem is our persistence in sacrificing health and lives for the sake of the almighty dollar.
By JC
May 22, 2007 8:38 AM | Link to this
The Heritage Foundation is the absolute best at ginned up polls and surveys.
By Southern Democrat
May 22, 2007 8:39 AM | Link to this
(Tongue planted firmly in cheek) Yesterday we needed to screw the immigrants, today we need to shortchange children, what’s tomorrow, puppies?
By Capt
May 22, 2007 8:40 AM | Link to this
I work in the First Responder healthcare industry (Fire Rescue). Throwing money at this is not the answer. Education and limiting assess to Emergency Rooms for non-emergent problems would be a good start. The problem has gotten so bad that a lot of EMS units and Rescue units are being responded to homes for basic health care and advice. I have had more than one person say that they wanted to go the the Emergency Room for a minor problem (ie ear infection, ingrown toenail ect)by ambulance so they will be seen faster. This type attitude is causing the health care system to crumble….just wait 20 years from now.
By KR
May 22, 2007 8:48 AM | Link to this
I can see 500 Georgians saying, “If you’re going to blow $19M of our tax money, I’d rather you spend it on improving access to healthcare rather than some ill-advised campaign to promote fishing in the state.”
Feel free to substitute a different funding amount and a different pork project as you see fit.
By DebbieDoRight
May 22, 2007 8:50 AM | Link to this
The findings of the survey are simply astounding — and surely dramatic enough to intimidate any Georgia state legislator who might be tempted to rein in out-of-control spending for PeachCare
Thank goodness!! I’m back to disagreeing with all the bush sh#t you try to spin on a daily basis!! Whew!! That was a close call there; I am so glad that you returned to your normal, ridiculous, crying wolf mis informed, statements!! And they said it wouldn’t last…….!!!
By KR
May 22, 2007 8:50 AM | Link to this
I can see 500 Georgians saying, “If you’re going to blow $19M of our tax money, I’d rather you spend it on improving access to healthcare rather than some ill-advised campaign to promote fishing in the state.”
Feel free to substitute a different funding amount and a different pork project as you see fit.
By Dennis
May 22, 2007 8:51 AM | Link to this
Mr. Wooten writes, “spending for PeachCare…a 10-year-old program that provides taxpayer-subsidized health care coverage for children whose parents earn too much to qualify for Medicaid, a program to serve the poor.”
That there are, and will be abuses and mismanagement in these kinds of programs is going to occur. But that’s a long way from those whom these programs help.
Perhaps Mr. Wooten would rather let those who need this care go without and then spend the money that would be used to meet their needs on bombing the hell out of Iraq and giving tax breaks to those who don’t need them.
There’s plenty of corruption in the Oval Office. When has Mr. Wooten written or complained about that?
You don’t have to be a blind conservative not to see it, just an ignorant one to deny it.
By Aquagirl
May 22, 2007 9:09 AM | Link to this
Middle-class people can’t pay for healthcare because of programs like Peachcare. The system is out of control because almost no one pays for the services they receive, it’s either paid for by private insurance or a government program. There is no incentive from consumers to control costs or act responsibly—-see the Capt @ 8:40.
If you expand that system even more, you’re just adding to the problem. Check out cash only clinics
Oh, and I totally agree with Jim…most people have opinions, and if you ask them what facts led them to or support that conclusion, they don’t have any. They just pulled their opinion out of their bu….uh, out of thin air.
By kandre
May 22, 2007 9:15 AM | Link to this
What poor? Not the people who turn off the cable TV, leave their air conditioned home and drive in their cars to take children to dr.’s appointments paid for by the taxpayer. The income limit should be much lower for those families accessing taxpayer funded health care. I remember one article in the AJC where the family dropped employer based insurance for the kids and signed up for PeachCare- this allowed the family to afford private school tuition. The taxpayer is getting screwed.
By Redneck Convert
May 22, 2007 9:18 AM | Link to this
Well, these poll people just keep trying to pour more of our tax money onto Those People on Peach Care. It has got to the point that I can’t hardly afford NASCAR tickets and a case of beer for the weekend and some Skoal and Red Man. They just keep taking our money to keep Those People alive so they can vote for libruls and do unAmerican things. I guess they don’t want to see Sonny’s fishing budget get funded right.
I see all Those People walking around fat. They have to be eating good. Why don’t somebody check to see what income they are hiding from the state?
Anyway, its a waste of my tax dollars. Let the kids work and pay for their own doctoring. I know I speak for most good GA people when I say lets pay for things that are really needed. Like good roads and fishing and NASCAR stuff. We don’t need no stinking welfare down here. I’m with Wooten. Cut my taxes and let people fend for theirselfs. Thats the Southren way. If you can’t afford to raise kids, don’t have them. We was a lot better off before all the welfare programs like Peach Care got passed by the libruls.
By Van
May 22, 2007 9:23 AM | Link to this
Ah, so much for socialized medicine and that which it spawns.
Because we wanted to “help” the poor and disadvantaged, we have created a plethora of evils. HMO’s, can managed health care be any worse?
With the wonders of Managed health care, we get the nice corporate types that want to dictate what level of health care you get, what costs it will cover and when it will pay(some are slower than others). This carries over to some, if not all, government health care programs.
Government provided health care. Yes the VA does have hospitals and some are very good. Over all is the government(all levels) provided health care(all programs) really that good for us, our pocketbooks or the patients?
By Mid-South Philosopher
May 22, 2007 9:29 AM | Link to this
Good morning, Jim and others,
It continues to be the old, old story. As a general rule, people do not shop for medical care or medical insurance.
In the first instance, we rarely plan on having a heart attack or developing cancer, so when it happens, we seek treatment where we are most comfortable, where it is most convenient, or (in all to many cases) where we can get it with whatever resources (private pay, medical insurance, or emergency room syndrome) we have at our disposal.
In the second instance, medical insurance plans (for those who can afford them) are complicated and cumbersome, so we generally go with whatever the employer offers or what we can afford with little thought for planning for what we need. For example, while not impossible, it is doubtful that my wife and I will ever need pre-natal or maternity coverage!
Because of our laziness, and because of the greed of the socio-medical-pseudo-industrial complex, we are marching, in step, toward national health care, which will be disastrous for the middle class.
The corporatist medical and insurance establishments have no one to blame but themselves for the forthcoming tragedy, and, if only they were hurt, I would say “good enough for them.” Unfortunately, it will be the diminishing middle class and working poor who will need the Vaseline jar.
By jbmlaw
May 22, 2007 9:37 AM | Link to this
Dear Southern @ 8:39, nobody will top your post today, my best laugh in a couple of days. Aquagirl’s note @ 9:09 was funny enough to win on a normal day, also well done.
Dear Curious @ 8:34, your argument is excellent, well-layered. You sound more like a libertarian than I, at least so far as you go with your observations. Careful, the leftists will revoke your membership card.
I must have been coffee-deficient this morning, I forgot to drop in my standard cliché, “Despite all the money we drop in this black hole, the death rate remains 100%.” Or maybe I’m slipping.
By Bob
May 22, 2007 9:43 AM | Link to this
Foreign invaders should be severely punished. I for one have no problem with capital punishment. And they should not have the right to an attorney paid for by my tax money. Immigrants my eye.
By Van
May 22, 2007 9:55 AM | Link to this
Aquagirl ,
How true. The third payer system we have, for those with health insurance, isolates us, the consumer, from even caring about how much the echo-cardiogram actually costs.
I do know, in the old days, back in the good old days, medical insurance was a “you pay, we will reimburse you” system. I do not know how that would work today.
By RCH
May 22, 2007 10:01 AM | Link to this
Southern Democrat Maybe we should take some of that 2.5 trillion that we will have to spend on those 12 Million illegals for SS and spend it here. In your mindset money must grow on trees or is it easier to take it from my paycheck?
By deegee
May 22, 2007 10:03 AM | Link to this
If you asked 500 Georgians where the state gets their money two-thirds wouldn’t know. I would assume that the majority of the kids are being seen for earaches, colds, measles and sore throats. You can go to the doc-in-the-box and pay around $100.00 out of pocket for that type of visit. The big nut is the prescription and nobody but politicians are friendly with those folks. That may explain why the program is so bloated.
I don’t understand why medical professionals like EMTs have to treat as an emergency anything and everything that someone claims is an emergency. We need to restructure the system so that hospital emergency room personnel can triage a patient during admission and determine whether they have a life threatening illness. Those that do are treated as an emergency. Those that don’t are sent to the hospital clinic and are seen by a GP on a first come, first serve basis. Everyone should pay a copay up front before being seen by a doctor.
By Good Ga Krischen
May 22, 2007 10:10 AM | Link to this
Blah blah, poor people stink. Blah blah, I wanna keep what I earn. Blah blah, they should have thought of that before they got sick. Blah blah, children should know better than to be born to adults who don’t squirrel money away for earraches. Blame the children. Punish them too.
Y’all make me so proud.
By getalife
May 22, 2007 10:22 AM | Link to this
Lets see, we have secret trade and immigration deals, caving to funding and w planning second surge, still no accountabilty, outrageous gas prices, looks like we the people have been screwed again.
Oh well, the destruction continues with no end in sight and the Dems have gone over to the dark side.
God save America.
By deegee
May 22, 2007 10:28 AM | Link to this
Peachcare is an essential program. It needs to be administered properly to ensure that the kids receive the best healthcare and that the doctors are paid a fair wage for their services. Right now every private and public healthcare program is bloated with wasteful spending on unnecessary tests and inflated prices for drugs. Additionally, people abuse themselves and their children with poor hygeine, poor eating habits, and drug and alcohol abuse. People should be made to feel responsible for their self-neglect.
The abuse is across all socio-economic strata. I have read that more and more adolescents are being treated by orthopedists for overuse injuries of the limbs that are common in middle aged people. The root cause is the parents’ desire for their children to be athletic standouts before the body fully develops.
By harold
May 22, 2007 10:33 AM | Link to this
oh come on, jim. it’s republican entrepreneurs who have their childrens on the peachcare. they are self-employed and thus write their income as being low on the tax returns and get the peachcare for free even though they rich. the rich dont get rich by making doctors rich. they get rich by keeping their money and using the peachcare!
By Aquagirl
May 22, 2007 10:34 AM | Link to this
Van, it isn’t just echocardiograms, it’s everything in healthcare. Ever seen a hospital bill with $5 asprin? I seem to remember a few years back Grady started charging .50 cents for filling prescriptions. Oh, the cries of the idiots who said that was like shooting poor people…
The cash clinics link I put in my earlier post shows another reason healthcare is so expensive. There is a whole industry just in medical billing. That would be the entire cost of running programs like medicare, medicaid, peachcare, humana, blue cross/blue shield, etc.
One of the good arguments for the FairTax(tm) is that it would simplify the tax system. Same for healthcare. Those cash-only clinics are much cheaper because they don’t have the added costs of paperwork and underpayment for services.
By jm
May 22, 2007 10:35 AM | Link to this
As Mark Twain was wont to say: “There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics.” You can substitute polls for statistics.
When PeachCare was first proposed, I don’t think government expected employers would start reducing the health insurance coverage they offered (passing some of their costs on to the taxpayers).
By Sanctuary
May 22, 2007 10:50 AM | Link to this
By Southern Democrat
May 22, 2007 8:39 AM | Link to this
(Tongue planted firmly in cheek) Yesterday we needed to screw the immigrants, today we need to shortchange children, what’s tomorrow, puppies?
Well said SD. Makes you wonder how a group of folks that claim to have a hotline to God are always the practicioners and advocates of everything that is alien to their own self proclaimed christianity doesn’t it.
By ThomasJ
May 22, 2007 11:01 AM | Link to this
But they don’t have a problem with the taxpayer dime subsidizing fraudulent contracts in Iraq. But they squall like mashed cats if one penny of tax money is spent on a child or anyone else in need.
By Patrick
May 22, 2007 11:04 AM | Link to this
Jim, You never fail to make me laugh. I love that global warming is some how a figment of Al Gore’s imagination.
You are clueless!
By Political Mongrel
May 22, 2007 11:08 AM | Link to this
The problem that we don’t take care of today because we’re too damn cheap for words becomes the problem that eats us alive further down the road.
By no answer
May 22, 2007 11:11 AM | Link to this
…complain,complain,complain!thats all I read from this blog.complain about Blacks,Mexicans,poor people,abortion,gays,traffic,Vick,rappers,Paris Hilton,Bush,librals,Sharpton,today’s youth,the media,etc.But did you guys read the sunday paper?there was an article about the top 100 companies in Ga,and guess what they are all run by White males! So you guys still have all the power and opportunities so why are yall so mad?why do yall complain so much?
By Pastor
May 22, 2007 11:12 AM | Link to this
A member of my congregation that is considered by his peers to be a strong christian once stated to me that he sometimes couldn’t reconcile his christianity with his business practices. We didn’t elaborate but when I see some of the political positions and cold hearted beliefs of some people it tells me that they are Sunday only christians. They are the christians that never miss church, show up bible in hand, take their feel good pill for the week and then for the next 6 days live and think like everything but a christian. Tragic but true.
By no answer
May 22, 2007 11:12 AM | Link to this
…complain,complain,complain!thats all I read from this blog.complain about Blacks,Mexicans,poor people,abortion,gays,traffic,Vick,rappers,Paris Hilton,Bush,librals,Sharpton,today’s youth,the media,etc.But did you guys read the sunday paper?there was an article about the top 100 companies in Ga,and guess what they are all run by White males! So you guys still have all the power and opportunities so why are yall so mad?why do yall complain so much?
By spaceman109
May 22, 2007 11:15 AM | Link to this
jim mentions that citizenship and income are not verified in order to sign up for peachcare.
looks like sonny-boy and his fellow republican travelers in the state legislature have long had their heads in the sand on that point. if citizenship and income verification had been enforced from the start, peachcare would not be in its present bad shape.
i do note that jim failed to call out sonny-boy and the republican legislators about citizenship and income requirements. perhaps jim was afraid he would get a call from sonny-boy in which sonny-boy would tell jim to shut up unless he, jim wooten, had a solution.
By cranky old man
May 22, 2007 11:24 AM | Link to this
I realize the limited relevance of anecdotal examples, but I can actually provide a personal snapshot of at least one family on Peachcare - mine.
I’ve been employed by a major Georgia based company since 1999. When I started my current job, my employer offered excellent health insurance, which cost us virtually nothing. Premiums of perhaps $20 per month, and co-pays of $5 for office visits, and $25 for emergency room visits. I’ve got five kids, ages 4-14, and until a couple of years ago, I was making about $3,800 per month. We were doing fine.
But the company has had a series of financial setbacks the past few years, and we’ve been through a couple of pay cuts since 2005. I now make $2,700 per month, and my insurance premiums would be $230 per month, with a large deductable and much higher co-payments. And it would have paid absolutely nothing toward my seven-year-old’s audiology appointments or hearing aids.
So I finally threw in the towel this year an applied for Peachcare. Which, by the way, was not a simple procedure. We needed forms and documents from various sources, in addition to birth certificates and social security cards and income verification, and proof we were all American citizens, and the kids were ours, and my wife and I were married (to each other), and a notarized affadavit in lieu of school records for those kids too young to attend school, etc. I haven’t had such a hastle since I filled out security clearance forms in the army.
So, what’s the consensus? Freeloading leech sucking the blood from hardworking taxpayers? Or legitimate user of a program that should probably be made available to everone in some form?
By Gandolf the White
May 22, 2007 11:25 AM | Link to this
Remove of the illegal invaders from Mexico and perhaps we are spending enough! No HEALTH CARE FOR ILLEGALS payed for by me, the taxpayer. SEND THEM HOME! Annexing Mexico would be far cheaper than what we are doing. Declare War on these invaders and take over their lands!
By jbmlaw
May 22, 2007 11:29 AM | Link to this
Dear no answer @ 11:11, someone complained about Paris Hilton?
By Bosch
May 22, 2007 11:35 AM | Link to this
cranky old man, You know, if you can’t afford your children, then you shouldn’t have them, as some would say. So I guess you should just give your children up for adoption, or maybe just a couple of your kids, probably the one with the hearing trouble should definitely go to someone who can afford her hearing aids.
Just kidding.
That’s what I love about neo-cons saying things like “don’t have kids if you can’t afford them.” They are clueless to reality. It must be nice to live in their bubble where nothing ever goes wrong, no one ever looses a job, and everything is perfect, Oh, and I almost forgot — you know everything.
That was a great story, and thank you for sharing.
By spaceman109
May 22, 2007 11:36 AM | Link to this
cranky old man…thanks for your perspective. :D
i see that you mentioned the hoops you had to jump through in order to qualify for peachcare. seems that mr. wooten believes there are no such requirements. mebbe you two could arm-wrestle to see who is right :)
all kidding aside, your post seems a powerful retort to mr. wooten’s lack-of-verification claim.
the ball is now in mr. wooten’s court. let’s see if he can come up with an answer which is not a gop talking point.
By Russ Childers
May 22, 2007 11:37 AM | Link to this
Mr. Wooten —
Thanks for saving me a letter to the editor. You have done a service in pointing out that the facts don’t support the conclusions of the poll. Anyone who believes that a family of 4 earning over $40,000 really cannot “afford” health insurance hasn’t looked into the numbers — at least outside the Metro area — and that is where the Speaker’s bill would have placed the cut off. Is it easy — no — probably not. But families have to do what is necessary to provide necessities before paying for extras. I have no trouble with us providing help to the truly needy, but that probably ends in the $20-30,000 range for a family of 4.
Russ Childers, Americus PS — what genius decided that folks down here shouldn’t get a chance to buy your paper any longer?
By spaceman109
May 22, 2007 11:44 AM | Link to this
cranky….one more thing….i take back what i said about lack of verification. guess i was too quick to believe mr. wooten’s lack-of-verification claim.
but then, it could be that some peachcare verification people are more apt than others to require verification.
and i bet jbmlaw’s brain is working overtime to try and explain away your situation. i can see the smoke coming out of his ears even as i sit here :)
By JC
May 22, 2007 11:52 AM | Link to this
By spaceman109 the ball is now in mr. wooten’s court. let’s see if he can come up with an answer which is not a gop talking point.
Jim has to confer with his idol, Chip Rogers first spaceman. Then he will respond….with a GOP talking point.
By spaceman109
May 22, 2007 11:56 AM | Link to this
my bad jc :) i forgot that mr. wooten first must consult with his handlers in the state gop before responding.
By jbmlaw
May 22, 2007 11:59 AM | Link to this
Dear spaceman109 @ 11:44, sorry, but this is a no-brainer. Every economic problem we suffer in life is attributable to government interference in the economy. Healthcare is no different. If poor Cranky had to pay only market prices for services, rather than the prices of artificially-stimulated demand, he could bank the difference in his market-yield social security account.
By harold
May 22, 2007 12:02 PM | Link to this
HAROLD WANTS TO KNOW CAN HAROLD PAY $5,000 TO BECOME AN ILLEGAL AND NEVER HAVE TO PAY TAXES OR PAY FOR HEALTHCARE AGAIN?? IF SO WHERE DOES HAROLD SIGN UP?
By spaceman109
May 22, 2007 12:09 PM | Link to this
jbmlaw….perhaps you could be more specific about the effect on health care from gommint interference. your generalized statement @ 11:59 does nothing to help clear the air.
By jbmlaw
May 22, 2007 12:25 PM | Link to this
Dear spaceman109 @ 12:09, certainly, although I explained “interference” in part with subsequent language, “artificially stimulated demand.” But on the broader issue you raise, have you ever contemplated the statutory necessity that almost all health care service-coverage disputes are refereed by the US Department of Labor? Or whether there is any sound economic reason behind individual states’ laws requiring health insurance policies to include enumerated coverages? Why individuals may reduce pre-tax income to cover the cost of a health insurance policy? All of those interfere with the market.
Since you obviously value the jbmlaw assessment of public policy, our recommendation would be simple – we would outlaw the sale of health insurance in America for 10 years. (Yes, I realize that is itself interference in the economy – the short-term constraint on freedom would be necessary to urge an appropriate market correction.) The singular problem is that, in healthcare, we all live on somebody else’s nickel - if we all pay our own bills, true market forces will rein in the excesses.
By MexicanConsul
May 22, 2007 12:33 PM | Link to this
Harold you don’t have to sign up. But you do have to cross I85, I285,and I75 on foot during rush hour, then make your through the neighborhood directly behind the Georgia Dome without being maimed, raped, robbed, or killed to simulate the journey just to get to your destination here at the consulate. Once here we will expidite the surrender of your drivers license, automobile insurance card, ssn card etc and so on. Once you no longer have an identity or any verifiable paperwork, the next step in the process would be for you to find the nearest corner on which to stand where some good ole boy might pick you up and transport you to a construction site where he may or may not at the end of the day pay you. If you are down on your luck Harold it is certain that one of your Latino co-workers will take you home to meet his family, feed you a hot meal, and provide you with a place to stay until you are on your feet again. You know Harold. Show you some human kindness that probably wouldn’t be extendedd to you by your former peers. But by all means Harold, try to sign up for Peachcare minus all of the things that you no longer have to prove that you are actually a human being. And then do us all a favor and report back to Wooten what an easy time of it you had doing that. Should be a piece of cake living in the shadows Harold. Hope you enjoy Utopia.
By spaceman109
May 22, 2007 12:36 PM | Link to this
hey jbmlaw….here is another example of interference with the market that you conveniently forgot to mention.
i am sure you recall that vast expansion of prescription drug benefits which your beloved president bush signed into law.
wonder why you conveniently forgot to mention that as an example of gommint intereference.
and no, i do not “value” your assessment of public policy. i just wanted to see some examples of what you meant.
and you mentioned this: have you ever contemplated the statutory necessity that almost all health care service-coverage disputes are refereed by the US Department of Labor?
you are certainly very good at making statements which are very hard to verify by anyone who is not an internet wonk.
By RCH
May 22, 2007 12:40 PM | Link to this
* Mexican Consul* If it is that bad,why do they come here? I don’t see Americans trying to immigrate to any other country because it is that bad here.We know why don’t we!
By Sanctuary
May 22, 2007 12:41 PM | Link to this
DAUUUUMMMMM!!! I don’t know who you are MexicanConsul but you just shoved it in and broke it off DEEP in the heartless SOBs like Wooten and those of his ilk. Very good! Powerful post.
By jbmlaw
May 22, 2007 12:43 PM | Link to this
Dear spaceman109 @ 12:36, your inclusion of the prescription benefit is an excellent example of the artificial stimulation I describe. (And I was aware that you could not care less about “the jbmlaw assessment of public policy,” that your motivation was entirely one of bad faith – I was merely mocking your demand.) Your other notes suggest you are simply one of those who like to play “gotcha” rather than seriously contemplate economic issues, a normal moonbat perspective. But I answered you in good faith anyway – I’ll leave it to you to try to determine why I answered bad faith with good faith.
By jm
May 22, 2007 12:50 PM | Link to this
jbmlaw - you overlook the conflicting nature of health insurance. It is in the best interest of the provider (the insurance company) to restrict coverage in order to maximize profit (the less paid on claims the more available for executive bonuses). While the consumer is going to want to maximize utilization (whether necessary or not).
An insurance company would much rather cover a healthy 20 something than a middle aged individual (especially one with pre-existing condition or with dependents with pre-existing conditions) since the 20 something is less likely to use any coverage.
One of the annoying things about the health insurance racket is lack of emphasis on “heallthy lifestyle choices” and basic prevention.
By Tommy
May 22, 2007 12:51 PM | Link to this
By RCH
May 22, 2007 12:40 PM | Link to this
Someone finally turned over the piece of tin and uncovered that rotting soul RCH. What a stench!!
But the answer is BECAUSE WE ARE AMERICA! And it is time to start acting like it again. Of course with trash like you, totally devoid of a soul or human compassion, it may be a long row to hoe. What we need to do is deport filth like you RCH. We’d have a better country for the effort. Maybe even be what America is SUPPOSED to stand for again.
By spaceman109
May 22, 2007 12:52 PM | Link to this
in point of fact, jbmlaw….in reponse to your calling me a moonbat…i am all in favor of the fair tax. too bad that your beloved president bush did not have the cajones to sell the concept. ronald reagan he sure isn’t.
and there was no gotcha here whatsoever. i just do not care for generalized statements which lack supporting documentation. a few links would be nice.
By catlady
May 22, 2007 12:55 PM | Link to this
Mr. Wooten hit it right on the head. Most of the polls we see are dubious in this same way. Folks who rely on polls to make their decisions on the best course for the country are bound to be ill-informed, and those who let themselves be influenced about what others are proported to think are idiots incapable of thinking for themselves.
By IRS
May 22, 2007 1:02 PM | Link to this
By RCH
May 22, 2007 10:01 AM | Link to this
Southern Democrat Maybe we should take some of that 2.5 trillion that we will have to spend on those 12 Million illegals for SS and spend it here. In your mindset money must grow on trees or is it easier to take it from my paycheck?
Sorry about that measly 1% that we take from your $8.50 an hour RCH. I profusely apoligize. Seems a shame to take that much form a semi-literate cretin that can’t do any better for himself.
By spaceman109
May 22, 2007 1:06 PM | Link to this
i wonder if catlady feels the same way about polls sponsored by (insert favorite right-wing think tank here).
By RCH
May 22, 2007 1:09 PM | Link to this
So Tommy If I am that piece of trash,why do they call them illegal. How about compassion for those who waited in line for years to come here the right way,how about compassion for those who must shoulder the costs ( 2.5 Trillion in SS alone),how about compassion for those parents that have paid taxes and can’t get Peachcare because we must support those who decided which laws they will follow .I do have compassion for someone that through no fault of there own is having a hard time,but not someone who puts themselves in the position which Mexican Consul mentioned by breaking the law. Remember the law.Tommy,it is only when you suffer a loss will you then invoke the law. In the Constitution it guarantees you the pursuit of happiness not the guarantee!
By Tommy
May 22, 2007 1:18 PM | Link to this
RCH, may God have mercy on your empty and rotten soul. Amen.
By RCH
May 22, 2007 1:20 PM | Link to this
IRS Those are appropriate initials for you. Rob me at the point of a gun every month.Try 40% of every dollar I earn. Maybe I am a little tired of that.Maybe I need a little compassion!
By Sanctuary
May 22, 2007 1:24 PM | Link to this
BS Tommy! May that worthless RCH piece of pig shi& roast in hell! I bet he already has reservations.
By Einstein
May 22, 2007 1:27 PM | Link to this
RCH you’re too damn dumb to be in the 4% bracket. Now buzz away and land on that dog turd that’s out there waiting for you. What a worthless piece of white trash. Sheeeeeze!
By JBMlawless
May 22, 2007 1:31 PM | Link to this
who is this “jbmlaw” guy and does he have a serious man-crush on jim “the right wing apologist” wooten or what? you’ve go to worry about anyone who’s primary mission every morning is to be the first poster on jim “the right wing apologist” wooten’s “apologizing for everything the right wing does” blog. We get it jbmlaw - why don’t you just post “ditto” every morning and leave it at that.
By Captain Freedom
May 22, 2007 1:31 PM | Link to this
The Captain wishes he could join this fray, expressing in loud, ringing tones the clear and present danger this Latinomuslimist invasion represents to the White Christian way of life in OUR Country.
The Captain wishes he could awaken the SanFranciscoliberalbedwetters to the fear they should Rightly feel at the prosepect of a swarthy, darkening Nation filled with a swarm of little Frito Banditos. That he could get handwringing pantywaists of the left to learn to cower and cringe at the idea of pencil-thin moustachioed Lotharios bedding our women and creating unfair comparisons to the average Conservative Male’s length and girth.
That he could get the Mexicali-loving sob sisters to realize that we are talking here about the Right Thinking NECESSITY to keep this Glorious Nation a majority White bastion of True Belief.
But the Captain cannot do so, as he is still consumed with grief in the aftermath of Our Holy Father Falwell going “belly up” last week. The Captain joins the whole world in praying extra super-duper hard for the protection of Revs. Dobson and Robertson in the aftermath of this tragedy. If God has to take another Person of God, please let it be one of the gay or coloreds, and not one of the truly righteous White Men of Our Lord.
So, carry on, True Believers, and know that the Captain will be back soon, fortified and primed for battle with evil-doers.
By RCH
May 22, 2007 1:37 PM | Link to this
Tommy,IRS,Einstein,Sanctuary If all of you have so much compassion,you may not know but you can overpay the IRS.Please go ahead,but keep your hands out of my pocket! By the way Einstein, I doubt if you pay any taxes.Its not 4% like you may pay.Thats why you are not angry, its 40%.
By harold
May 22, 2007 1:39 PM | Link to this
HAROLD INSISTS ON COMPASSION FOR THOSE WHO OBEYED THE 55 MPH SPEED LIMIT BACK IN THE 1980S!
THE SPEED LIMIT MUST BE RELOWERED TO 55MPH TO BE FAIR AND COMPANSTIONATE!!!
By JBMlawless
May 22, 2007 1:39 PM | Link to this
who is this “jbmlaw” guy and does he have a serious man-crush on jim “the right wing apologist” wooten or what? you’ve go to worry about anyone who’s primary mission every morning is to be the first poster on jim “the right wing apologist” wooten’s “apologizing for everything the right wing does” blog. We get it jbmlaw - why don’t you just post “ditto” every morning and leave it at that.
By MarkP
May 22, 2007 1:49 PM | Link to this
Mr Wooten: you seem to think that when conducting a poll the pollster should first find out what the pollee knows, then decide whether to let them participate? If so then this is what’s known as sample bias and the results are even more devious than the question. I think if someone has the opinion that the weather is “sunny” shouldn’t depend on their knowledge of the number of foot-candles hitting their skin. I’ll concede though that in some cases questions can be leading or designed for ulterior motives (such as inviting greater response), such as when the GOP poses a referendum on banning gay marriage that’s already outlawed, or on protecting the heritage of hunting and fishing (somehow by reducing restrictions on the main methods of reducing availability of such recreation: environmental protections, development and zoning practices, and limits on weapon use.)
By Sara
May 22, 2007 1:56 PM | Link to this
RCH, judging from your posts and your illterate presentation I doubt if you could make a good burger at McDonalds. You’re just another blog poseur wannabe. If you are in a 40% tax bracket I’m a brain surgeon.
By RCH
May 22, 2007 2:02 PM | Link to this
Sara Its illiterate not illterate.Your right, I can’t make a good burger.But I can afford to eat out.And where do you practice?
By Ernie
May 22, 2007 2:04 PM | Link to this
Sara if he was in a 40% tax bracket he wouldn’t be in this blog 24/7 waiting to pounce with all of his racist BS. He’s probably a beer bellied backy chewin spitten recruiter for the aryan brothers or maybe even the neo nazi brigade. He might even be one of those minuteman ner do wells. But he certainly is not in a 40% tax bracket. LMAO!! ROFL!!!!
By RCH
May 22, 2007 2:16 PM | Link to this
Maybe **Ernie, maybe I can multi-task,have 5 sceens in front of me ( being in the computer industry)and do this to relieve stress from working all the time(24-7). Someone has to pay taxes. Property taxes just went up 8% in Alpharetta on the Greenway.Hint!
By Scholar
May 22, 2007 2:18 PM | Link to this
Someone could write an article about water being wet and people would get into an argument over it.
By Sara
May 22, 2007 2:19 PM | Link to this
Now I get it!!! You are a Latino landscaper. They treat you pretty good on that Greenway huh? Why are you so full of self loathing, RCH?
By Ted
May 22, 2007 2:23 PM | Link to this
I miss the days when to get your opinion heard you had to take the time to write a letter to the editor. I’ll bet certain employers out there miss those days as well, given how much time they lose to employees on the internet posting their opinions to blogs.
By RCH
May 22, 2007 2:31 PM | Link to this
WhySara I am tired of people who think that they know how to spend my money better than I. Not one of you have mentioned the costs of the Bill in front of Congress. To me this is not a racial ( sorry I don’t belong to the KKK)issue,but an economic one.Maybe one day you will understand.
By Sara
May 22, 2007 2:34 PM | Link to this
RCH it shouldn’t be that hard for you to spend that 8.50 an hour all by yourself. Drop the charade idiot boy. Nobody buys it.
By Catherine
May 22, 2007 2:41 PM | Link to this
cranky old man @11:24,
Put me down for “legitimate user”.
I support PeachCare and am one who believes that we should expand it. If citizenship and income isn’t currently verified, as Mr. Wooten asserts, then fix it. If people transfer coverage for their children to PeachCare because the excessive premiums of a personal or employer-based policy is too burdensome, then so be it.
Mr. Wooten asserts that if a child was covered before PeachCare, then the family doesn’t need PeachCare. I don’t agree. My sense is that many, if not most, of those families were either struggling to keep their heads above water or sinking deeper and deeper into debt. The number of low-income families are growing rapidly and middle class is shrinking rapidly, and we need to work together to reverse this trend. PeachCare is an important part of this effort.
In truth, we’re getting gouged by the medical community (as Curious Observer described this morning) and gouged again by insurers. We need relief, and I’m looking forward to putting a person in the White House (and the Governor’s Mansion) who agrees with me that affordable, quality health care is, not a right, but an obligation that we have to one another.
By RNC
May 22, 2007 2:41 PM | Link to this
Sara the guy (RCH) is obviously a troll for some anti-immigrant group. He lays in the weeds until someone touches on anything remotely resembling the immigration issue and then he pounces. He’s trash. Just ignore him and he will go away. Probably works for that douche bag that runs the Dustin Inman Society, D.A. King.
By RCH
May 22, 2007 2:46 PM | Link to this
Sara Again challenged you you can not answer specifics.But I can.In SS benefits alone over the next 20 years 2.5 Trillion . With a T.( Source: The Heritage Foundation) That’s a lot of .$ 8.50 jobs. Sara, you better get to work.
By RNC
May 22, 2007 2:51 PM | Link to this
Told you so Sara! The Heritage Foundation. When they start referencing that group you know you are dealing with racist white trash. Better to just leave the guy alone freeze him out. Don’t give him this forum.
By RCH
May 22, 2007 2:54 PM | Link to this
RNC You forgot one key word “ILLEGAL”.Most of the individuals that work for this firm are immigrants ,and yes they are brown,and yes they came here legally. Is that to much to ask? Don’t try to pull that race card. It will not work.
By RNC
May 22, 2007 2:58 PM | Link to this
It’s pulled! Deal with it. I have no time for white racist trash like you RCH.
By RCH
May 22, 2007 3:14 PM | Link to this
Just like I said, pull the race card. Robert Rector who wrote this article has been an advisor on welfare and poverty to several presidents including;Oh my God Bill Clinton.(Yep white trash)Did you think all these social programs are free? What stores do you shop at? And what makes you think that I am white? If you look at the polls of those who are against this bill you will see the largest percentage is African American.(CNN newspoll)I guess know they can be called racist.
By LMK
May 22, 2007 3:17 PM | Link to this
Catherine wrote, “…affordable, quality health care is, not a right, but an obligation that we have to one another.”
Well stated, Catherine!!! You’re absolutely correct.
By Tsk tsk
May 22, 2007 3:18 PM | Link to this
What stores do you shop at?
What school did you learn grammar AT?
By RCH
May 22, 2007 3:25 PM | Link to this
* Tsk Tsk * Forgive my grammar. Sometimes its hard to multi-task.
By WTF
May 22, 2007 3:34 PM | Link to this
Can someone please correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t I read something by Mr. Wooten once indicating that when he was a child he lived in public housing?
By Jim Wooten
May 22, 2007 3:38 PM | Link to this
WTF @ 3:34. I can speak with authority on that subject. He did.
By JohnD
May 22, 2007 3:41 PM | Link to this
If there were less waste in government a program like PeachCare would receive broad based support. Government does not act responsibly as long as their ability to tax is virtually unlimited.
The medical industry, formerly profession, has been hammered over the years by indigent care, malpractice claims (legitimate and not) and spiraling costs. Some of this relates to pure greed and some to the pressure of fewer MD’s in some of the specialties (OB/Gyn for example).
Additionally, there is much fraud in the industry as demonstrated by the number of convictions each year. When you assume only a small percentage of the criminals are charged and then convicted, the problem is huge.
A recent emergency room visit by a family member resulted in a 3-hour wait for care and a resultant $3,000 bill for 8 stitches, including X-rays and tests. An emergency room physician, a radiologist, nurses, and the lab all stuck their hands in the pie. After the insurance adjustor trimmed the fat the bill was still over $1,800.
A family of 3 or 4, with income under $50,000, is unlikely to have almost $2,000 in an emergency fund (or $3,000 if there is no insurer to look over the provider’s shoulder). Should there be a program such as PeachCare? Yes, definitely.
The ultimate question is how to fund PeachCare without the taxpayers simply footing the unreasonable bills the providers issue. Conservatives should push for accountability, in government and in PeachCare.
By WTF
May 22, 2007 3:46 PM | Link to this
Thanks for the clarification Jim. I’d always wondered if you actually read this posts — and it looks like you do! I guess my point was fairly obvious — you benefitted from a government housing program so why the negativity toward a healthcare program for the children of the working poor? Don’t get me wrong, I think there are all sorts of issues with public housing like generational dependency, etc., but there are people who are in genuing need for housing, just as there are people who are genuinely trying their best and working but just can’t afford to provide their children with access to healthcare. It would seem that for all of the money the governmend spends on things that don’t really matter, we could all agree that ensuring the health of children would be a no-brainer.
By WTF
May 22, 2007 3:48 PM | Link to this
Thanks for the clarification Jim. I’d always wondered if you actually read these posts — and it looks like you do! I guess my point was fairly obvious — you benefitted from a government housing program so why the negativity toward a healthcare program for the children of the working poor? Don’t get me wrong, I think there are all sorts of issues with public housing like generational dependency, etc., but there are people who are in genuine need for housing, just as there are people who are genuinely trying their best and working but just can’t afford to provide their children with access to healthcare. It would seem that for all of the money the government spends on things that don’t really matter, we could all agree that ensuring the health of children would be a no-brainer.
By WTF
May 22, 2007 3:57 PM | Link to this
But I guess the point of the article was really more about polling and not the issue of healthcare for children. With that in mind, I think we all know that anyone can get a poll to support their view if they ask the question properly. That’s why any candidate who relies on polls is too enmeshed in the “system” and needs to get out and just talk to some real people face to face.
By Jim Wooten
May 22, 2007 3:59 PM | Link to this
I have no problem with the PeachCare concept. The trick with government programs always is to start one up, see how it changes behaviors and whether it’s working as promised, and then make adjustments. The fight in this session of the General Assembly was over a bill that would have given the board of the Department of Community health authority to adjust eligibility based on available money and to align benefits with those available to state employees.
As for public housing, the most promising reform is the one that has been successful here in Atlanta, HOPE VI.. Publlic housing projects are razed and replaced by mixed-use housing where tenants have no entitlement to apartments there, but must “earn” the upscale accomodations by working, maintaining the place, avoiding drugs and the like. Others are given vouchers to find a home or apartment elsewhere. In the case of public housing, reformers saw that the existing system cultivated undesirable behaviors and generational dependency and they changed it. Nobody got hurt and many were better off.
By JohnD
May 22, 2007 4:00 PM | Link to this
RCH,
You will find that many of the Left persuasion assume facts not in evidence, such as you are white, and resort to the pejorative when facts do not support their position.
You will be a racist - even without your mentioning a specific race or any ill will toward a specific race. If you disagree with them then by all that is holy YOU ARE A RACIST.
You will be a xenophobe - even though most of them do not understand the meaning of the term.
You will be bigoted - even though the Left often mixes this term with racist, demonstrating they do not understand either word.
I have not even touched upon all the profane terms the Left uses here in further evidence of their inability to make a concise argument. The Left vocabulary seems to be dominated by four-letter, one syllable words.
And they love to question the intelligence of their opponents in the debate, after their failure to substantiate their positions and then resorting to all of the above terms. Beautiful people these “Progressives”.
By WTF
May 22, 2007 4:02 PM | Link to this
Thanks for the comments Jim. You raised some good points that I’ll have to think about.
By getalife
May 22, 2007 4:07 PM | Link to this
Jim lived in public housing?
My head spins.
Wow.
By RCH
May 22, 2007 4:14 PM | Link to this
JohnD Thanks for the vote of confidence.You are right.Numerous times I supported my points with facts,but I guess that doesn’t count: just like the law.
By deegee
May 22, 2007 4:54 PM | Link to this
If we are such a nation of laws populated by righteous, law abiding citizens intolerant of lawbreakers, then why does the IRS need tax examiners, revenue agents and delinquent tax collectors?
By JohnD
May 23, 2007 8:36 AM | Link to this
Did someone hijack the deegee name?
I seldom agree with her but the last post could not have been hers. She is normally very thoughtful.
To answer whoever asked why we need IRS auditors and special agents - the Internal Revenue Code is a mishmash of technical and illogical rules that not one person understands completely.
Money Magazine sent identical tax information to 50 expert preparers for several years in the 80’s and 90’s. The result was 50 different tax returns, not once but every year.
The Internal Revenue Code is, for lack of a more accurate term, a JOKE. The theory behind the Code is false, the Members of Congress use the Code for political purposes, the Executive Branch uses the Code for political purposes and voters care not about the best interests of the country but whether they save on their individual returns.
We now have over 50% of the populace that pays no income tax. In the same manner the country is unable to sustain unlimited immigration; the country is unable to operate on an ever diminishing tax base.