Thinking Right

By Van

May 10, 2007 8:26 AM | Link to this

Simple question -

What Country are you a citizen of?

By Van

May 10, 2007 8:28 AM | Link to this

2nd simple question -

Is you student Visa up to date?

By Dave

May 10, 2007 8:28 AM | Link to this

Our university education is valuable. So valuable that a great percentage of students come from other countries legally and pay out of state tuition. I am not sure if they eventually can convert to in-state tuition, but illegals should get the same permissions they get and pay at the same rate they pay. Since these students are bettering themselves, they should be allowed to apply and be accepted for student visas and play under the same rules as other students on student visas.
Additionally, this may encourage other illegal immigrants to go to our institutions in order to become legal.

I know that being illegal must be stressful for someone who has grown up in this country and we should encourage them to get a college education which would end the cycle of poverty that brought them here.

By jbmlaw

May 10, 2007 8:30 AM | Link to this

Good morning all. This is one of the few areas where I part company with Jim and my conservative friends. Resident aliens – illegal or otherwise – are mostly taxpayers. I cannot fathom any reason we should add a “citizenship” requirement, on top of the tax-paying residency requirement, for the “in-state” tuition rates in colleges. If the non-natives are capable of doing college level work in their second language, we need to encourage their presence, not shun them.

By Van

May 10, 2007 8:33 AM | Link to this

3rd simple question -

Luis Ramos, will you address a gathering of foreign students attending Georgia schools with proper papers and paying out of state tuition, why you deserve a special break?

By Jim's a Cherry Picker

May 10, 2007 8:58 AM | Link to this

Maybe Sgt. Deal Cruz could have used some more book learnin’ (I wonder if he and his parents are legal):

Marine Testifies to Urinating on Body

By PAUL von ZIELBAUER Published: May 10, 2007

CAMP PENDLETON, Calif., May 9 — A marine testified on Wednesday that he urinated on the bloody remains of one of five unarmed Iraqi men in Haditha whom his squad leader fatally shot in late 2005 moments after a roadside bomb had killed one of their comrades.

The marine, Sgt. Sanick Dela Cruz, said at a hearing here that he had acted in anger over the death of Lance Cpl. Miguel Terrazas, known as T.J., whose convoy was hit by a bomb planted by Sunni Arab insurgents.

“I know it was a bad thing what I done, but I done it because I was angry T.J. was dead,” Sergeant Dela Cruz said in a monotone.

The Iraqis had driven up to the site of the bombing, drawing suspicion from the squad leader, Staff Sgt. Frank Wuterich, and his men, military investigators have said.

Under a grant of immunity, Sergeant Dela Cruz testified that Staff Sergeant Wuterich had ordered the five unarmed Iraqis out of their car and fired six to eight rounds into them as they stood with arms raised.

“I watched him shooting, sir, at the Iraqis,” Sergeant Dela Cruz said. He walked around the car to inspect the bodies, he said. “They were dead.”

From 10 feet away, the sergeant said, he sprayed the bodies with automatic fire and then urinated on the bullet-ripped head of one man.

Sergeant Dela Cruz said that Staff Sergeant Wuterich had told the squad, “If anybody asks, they were running away, and the Iraqi Army shot them.” Staff Sergeant Wuterich’s lawyers have said he fired on the five civilians after they ran from the car and defied his order to stop.

By Aquagirl

May 10, 2007 8:59 AM | Link to this

Not often I admire Van’s questions, but I gotta give him props today. The idea that an illegal immigrant from Guatamala should pay less than a legal immigrant from Mexico is hard to defend. Unless you’re a bleeding heart liberal, in which case you can ignore any and all logical implications.

By KR

May 10, 2007 9:02 AM | Link to this

I’m not sure where my stance will place me on the liberal to conservative meter, but:

Forget in-state vs. out-of-state. If a prospective student can’t provide proof of U.S. citizenship or a valid student visa, then that person should be denied admission. One of the things we should be teaching is respect for following the rules.

By DebbieDoRight

May 10, 2007 9:03 AM | Link to this

OMG!! It finally happened H3LL has frozen over!!! I totally agree with everything jbmlaw said!!! It was clearly thought out, made sense, and was in tune with the moral dilemma faced by everyone today!! I agree with jbmlaw!!! God save us all……..

By Van

May 10, 2007 9:08 AM | Link to this

jbmlaw,

Doesn’t the term “Resident Alien” denote a legal status of some kind? How can you include those that entered this country illegally “Resident Aliens”

By DebbieDoRight

May 10, 2007 9:14 AM | Link to this

I’m always in awe of Jim and his topic picks. How many “legal” Cuban, Serbian, Yugloslavian, etc.; dissidents are in the US right now? How many of them, after being taken in by the US, has shown their support for the US by joining the military to support the “War On Terror”? How many of them get free education because of their “dissident” status? Goverment loans to start businesses? Pell grants for college?

What is the significant rate of legal refugees who receive government sponsored education vs. Ramos? Before you answer that question, Jim; let me remind you of the hundreds of thousands of former illegals who have joined the military, (in order to become legal), and to fight the “War On Terror” that has begun since 9/11. These people who have lived in the US for all these years and are REAL citizens because they chose to stand with the US in its time of a National Emergency. How many of those people vs. the “legal” dissidents and refguees taken in by the US each year?

Just asking.

By Aquagirl

May 10, 2007 9:25 AM | Link to this

We spend far more in tax dollars to educate illegal immigrants than they contribute. They have the right to a K-12 education free of charge. We spend inordinate amounts of money to do so, given the extra expense of ESL classes. The treatment of illegal immigrants in our educational system could hardly be termed unfair.

I do agree with the gut feeling of rewarding those who want to be more educated. But realistically, when they graduate, they will still be illegal. Getting a good college-degree job as such is more difficult than finding work standing in front of Home Depot. What happens when those employers do a background check? Would it be possible for such a person to find a job as say, a schoolteacher?

And as long as we’re passing out rewards, let’s reward legal immigrants by not subjecting them to increased tuition because they followed the law. The fact that some illegals join the military (?) or behave as good citizens isn’t a factor here.

By jbmlaw

May 10, 2007 9:26 AM | Link to this

Dear Van @ 9:08, I hope not. “Resident” merely means they live here. “Alien” means nothing more than that they were not born here. I regard immigration laws as something on a par with traffic control laws, except the latter can be life and death issues; immigration laws are substantially less, merely arbitrary legislation at its least significant. The “Law” is defiled when we create criminal penalties for people doing those things that show the noblest purposes; people who want to be here ought to be encouraged in every way, and discouraged in no way. I have greater issues with those native-born America-haters (had to throw that in to make my friend Debbie feel better!)

By deegee

May 10, 2007 9:26 AM | Link to this

I also agree with everything jbmlaw said today.

Van, the term resident alien means just that, an alien that resides in the US. When a resident alien adjusts status via form I-485 that individual can be considered a legal permanent resident and can legally work, leave the country for a determinate length of time and return lawfully to the US. It takes five years from the time a person becomes a legal resident alien to become a US citizen.

Right now the law prohibits any individual that entered the US illegally to adjust status and become a legal resident alien. This is what congress must change in the coming months. For years and prior to April, 2002 an illegal immigrant with the help of a US sponsor could pay a fine, go through a health and background check, demonstrate financial independence and adjust status.

By Aquagirl

May 10, 2007 9:36 AM | Link to this

Immigration laws aren’t arbitrary; like traffic laws, they are supposed to regulate a large system so that things don’t go to *. I admire the personal ethics of many illegal immigrants. The fact that they pay so much in income taxes (voluntarily) is amazing. They want a better life. In many ways, they make our native-born population look bad.

That aside, we can’t allow millions of unskilled workers here with no restrictions. First-generation immigrants will typically consume more resources than they provide. We are educating and employing a large portion of Mexico right now. This allows Mexico to ignore their responsibilities to educate and employ their own citizens.

I guess the people who are unable or unwilling to come here illegally are just out of luck, huh? We have no responsibility to them, yet we feel responsible to non-citizens who land here. That’s not ethical behavior.

By deegee

May 10, 2007 9:37 AM | Link to this

“The idea that an illegal immigrant from Guatamala should pay less than a legal immigrant from Mexico is hard to defend.”

Who is saying that? If, in both cases the student graduates from a high school in Georgia they would pay the same tuition.

By DebbieDoRight

May 10, 2007 9:39 AM | Link to this

The fact that some illegals join the military (?) or behave as good citizens isn’t a factor here.

I think it should be. In the news yesterday the reported supposed planned attack on Ft. Dix was allegedly planned by 4 US Dissidents; who were willing to “bite the hand that literraly saved them” for the glory of Al Queda (sp). Compare these dissident terrorists, (and probably some others who are in hiding here) to the “illegals” who join the military and fight with the US; not against them.

By DebbieDoRight

May 10, 2007 9:41 AM | Link to this

I have greater issues with those native-born America-haters (had to throw that in to make my friend Debbie feel better!)

Thanks!! Thought I was loosing my edge there for a minute…… :)

By Dennis

May 10, 2007 9:43 AM | Link to this

By jbmlaw May 10, 2007 8:30 AM “Good morning all. This is one of the few areas where I part company with Jim and my conservative friends. Resident aliens – illegal or otherwise – are mostly taxpayers.”

I don’t recall jbmlaw’s position on ammnesty for “illegal aliens”. But the fact is, “illegal” is “illegal”. And “mostly taxpayers” is no good reason to look the other way at “illegals”.

I applude the successes of those who are here illegaly, but that too is no reason to look the other way at “illegals”. Which begs the question, how many illegals enter this country for the purpose of education?

As “By Dave May 10, 2007 8:28 AM” said, student visa’s are available.

Laughably, jbmlaw’s statement, “Resident aliens – illegal or otherwise – are mostly taxpayers”, gets down to what the issue of “illegal’ is all about - money.

It is not the fault of the US that “illegals” (and let’s admit he and all of us are talking mostly about illegals from Mexico) are here because there aren’t enough jobs in their own country. But that is in part because of overpopulation, and the US is not responsible for Mexico’s over population.

To accept illegals, especially a blanket ammnesty in the manner that is being is being proposed in Washington and pushed by American business, is a slap in the face to those who have been through the process of becoming “legal”.

Regarding Mr. Wooten’s column, if I recall correctly he graduated from the University of Georgia. And if so, he too benefited from the “tuition… paid by college students [which]amounts to about 25 percent or less of the cost of providing their educations. Taxpayers provide the rest.”

I wonder if that qualifies as an “entitlement” that Mr. Wooten is always complaining about?

You don’t have to be a blind conservative not to see it, just an ignorant one to deny it.

By aquaspew

May 10, 2007 9:46 AM | Link to this

I don’t care what you say. I’m right, you’re wrong and to hell with anyone that disagrees with me.

By Aquagirl

May 10, 2007 9:46 AM | Link to this

Yes, deegee, if they both graduate locally, that’s true. But the illegal student can come here from another state and immediately qualify for in-state tuition, whereas the legal immigrant does not. They have no restrictions, unlike legal immigrants. Or for that matter, those who were born in the US.

A legal immigrant who’s parents leave the state to pick lettuce is subject to out-of state tuition if they stay here. A legal student on a F1 visa (student visa, basically) has to go abide by restrictions on work and travel. And so on….

By jbmlaw

May 10, 2007 9:47 AM | Link to this

Dear Dennis @ 9:43, to clarify your doubts, not only would I support an exceedingly broad amnesty for “illegals,” I would also have the government reward each who accepted the amnesty with a coupon for a free lunch at Wendy’s.

By Jeff

May 10, 2007 9:48 AM | Link to this

KR@9:02:

WHAT?? Follow the RULES????

ARE YOU CRAZY????

We can’t have THAT in the modern education system!!!!

Why, it would RUIN the poor students’ self-esteem to be told that their actions are WRONG and to be held RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS!!

By Curious Observer

May 10, 2007 9:50 AM | Link to this

The entire concept of “in-state” vs. “out-of-state” tuition is poorly justified. It is a bar to interstate commerce, and it essentially imposes tariffs on would-be students who choose to move from one state to another. Taken to its logical conclusion, the concept could justify charging higher tax rates to new state residents for the simple reason they have not paid the state taxes that supported creation of state and local services.

If we believe that higher education is a good thing on its face, then why create a barrier to illegal immigrants’ bettering themselves? Ask yourself why these illegals have their current status in the first place. It is simply that they are uneducated and thus unable to find employment in their home countries. Any education they receive while here lessens the chance that they will become parasites on our social structure.

We cut off our collective nose to spite our face by insisting upon the imposition of penalties such as out-of-state tuition on the illegals. We complain about the terrible burden the illegals place on our social services. Yet, we erect a barrier to their improving their economic status, all the while cynically using them to benefit from cheap labor. We also cynically collect payroll taxes from their labor, all the while pretending that the illegals are unmitigated burdens to us.

The nutcases had better get used to the notion that the illegals are here to stay. Even if we somehow deported every one of them, there is still the thorny problem of what to do about their legal offspring, who are born in the United States and thus citizens by virtue of our constitution. You cannot remove the constitutional rights of these offspring by simply passing a law in Congress.

We ought to be considering ways to assimilate the illegals, instead of creating obstacles to their self-improvement. We created the problem by virtue of employing them, thus creating an incentive for illegal immigrants to come here. We gave a wink and a nod when 40 different people contributed Social Security taxes to the same account—and then we used “privacy” as an excuse not to enforce immigration laws. It is much too late to want to close the doors to them now.

By JJ

May 10, 2007 9:52 AM | Link to this

Meanwhile, a struggling single mom is paying for her own child’s tuition, and I now have to pay an additional amount because the regents voted to up the cost per semester.

But some poor little illegal alien doesn’t want to pay out of state tuition. BOO HOO……

By Aquagirl

May 10, 2007 10:03 AM | Link to this

Curious, you seem skeptical of the logical conclusion that out-of-state students pay more because they (or their family) haven’t paid taxes to build or support the universities. Why would we pay taxes to support the University of Northwesteasterly New Hampshire?

One of the benefits of HOPE has been the transformation of UGA to a much better institution in terms of academics. There is nothing wrong with saying that Georgia taxes should be spent for the benefit of Georgia residents.

By Redneck Convert

May 10, 2007 10:07 AM | Link to this

Well, we ought to be rounding every illegal up and jailing them. Instead of worrying about what tuition they pay. Things like education don’t matter much. I never made it past the 5th grade and it never hurt me none. People that go to colledge ought to be sent out on the roads and put to work. Instead of wasting their time shooting each other and going to football games. Not to mention keg partys and all that stuff.

On the other hand, if they are in colledge they don’t have time to be taking the job of good GA taxpayers like me. Maybe we should keep them in colledge.

Anyway, I’m sure Sister Dusty will have something to say about all this. She always does. I never met a woman that says so much and knows so little.

Well, its getting close to the weekend and I have a heavy load of beer to start taking in to the bars and stores. The Baptists will probly be thirsty this weekend. It being mothers day and all. I’m sure that Van and jbmlaw and the other good conservatives will solve this illegal problem lickety-split. They always seem to have simple solutions to the thorniest problems. They are simple minded, but in a good kind of way.

By Jeff

May 10, 2007 10:08 AM | Link to this

Curious,

You scare me, you really do. ‘Course, so does anyone who has their views of rights backwards. See, here’s how it SHOULD be:

1) Individual

2) State

3) Nation

4) World

1,001) Animal

By DebbieDoRight

May 10, 2007 10:16 AM | Link to this

I didn’t notice GOD on that list…. that explains a lot…..

By deegee

May 10, 2007 10:17 AM | Link to this

The issue here is whether a student that resides in Georgia and graduates from a high school in Georgia should pay in state tuition if that student is in the US illegally. The purpose of denying that individual in state tuition is patently to punish illegal aliens. It’s not a question of whether or not they paid taxes in Georgia, who pays for universities in New Hampshire, immigrants coming to the US on student visas nor is it about an illegal alien paying in state tuition if they graduated from a high school outside of Georgia. If not for the fact that the student is an illegal alien the criteria to pay in state tuition would not be questioned.

This law is a part of the Chip Rogers crusade against illegals that he is using to pander to the far right wing conservatives, and catapult his political career.

By Dennis

May 10, 2007 10:24 AM | Link to this

By jbmlaw May 10, 2007 9:47 AM “Dear Dennis @ 9:43, to clarify your doubts, not only would I support an exceedingly broad amnesty for “illegals,”

If that is the case, we should “fling wide the gates”, not just for our neighbors south of the border, but for illegals over the entire planet.

And just how much more is it that you (who grumble and gripe so much about “entitlements” for native born Americans) are willing to pay in your taxes to have your broad amnesty take care of the illegal immigrant needs?

Other than Wendy’s? (That’s a lot of burgers to pay for out of your own pocket).

You don’t have to be a blind conservative not to see it, just an ignorant one to deny it.

By harold

May 10, 2007 10:31 AM | Link to this

this is clearly intended as a stepping stone to kicking them out of the public school system altogether.

step 1: sell public on in-state out-of-state thing step 2: they dont qualify for in-state tuition so why do we let them go to our public schools for free?

how about we cut to the chase and cut off one of their feet?

By Dennis

May 10, 2007 10:31 AM | Link to this

By Curious Observer May 10, 2007 @ 9:50 AM.

Tho I would differ from you on a few issues, well said.

You don’t have to be a blind conservative not to see it, just an ignorant one to deny it.

By Ms Writer

May 10, 2007 10:32 AM | Link to this

I have a girlfriend who is from Japan—had to pay for her student visa-graduated from a Georgia university and was immediately sent back when her visa ended. Why are illegal Mexicans above the law? The accomodation of illegal aliens is sickening!

By jbmlaw

May 10, 2007 10:32 AM | Link to this

Dear Curious @ 9:50, I would not maliciously embarrass you in front of your friends, but I agree with almost all you wrote. I don’t have a big problem with the in-state/out-of-state dichotomy, but even that argument you wrote there is not untrue.

By harold

May 10, 2007 10:35 AM | Link to this

rather than having out-of-state tuition at all, why not have states exchange the amounts their citizens paid?

columbus boy’s parents paid georiga taxes, so why do they have to pay extra to alabama for their kid to go to auburn? why cant georgia just transfer teh money over there? and when a kid from opelika goes to UGA, why not have alabama transfer the money over here? or why not just admit that in the end it all evens out rather evenly and the whole thing is a complete rip-off scam?

sure, billy bob paid georgia taxes but went to auburn. and sallie sue paid alabama taxes but went to georgia. if your shools are any good and people come to them from other places, it all evens out, so out-of-state tuition is a either a huge scam or a tacit admission that georgia schools cant and dont attract students from outside of georgia

By harold

May 10, 2007 10:38 AM | Link to this

and only a rich white man from the suburbs would call in-state tution “CHEAP”

By jbmlaw

May 10, 2007 10:42 AM | Link to this

Dear Conservative Friends, an additional moral-based explanation for my deviant view – American citizenship should be available to anyone in the world, at the same cost as the salvation of Christ. Citizenship should be nothing but an offering of grace, to all who believe as we believe, and who are willing to accept the obligations of citizenship. When Saint Ronald cited Winthrop’s concept of a “Shining City on A Hill” he was appealing to the highest sensibilities of all of us, not just conservatives. Anyone who wants to live in my neighborhood is ok with me.

By JD

May 10, 2007 10:52 AM | Link to this

If the tide of illegals is not stemmed the American society will cease to exist in a relatively short period of time.

Study the statistics and you will find that in less than 50 years the number of Americans born on US soil will be a fraction of the number of aliens (mostly illegal)living here. In the 1970’s we allowed 200,000 LEGAL immigrants per year. That number is now in the millions plus the millions of illegals each year.

The infrastructure is not capable of supporting the masses Bush and the Democrats would allow into this country. While the topic today is college tuition you only have to look into the immigrant situation as a whole to know we are not capable of supporting the illegals in our colleges and universities any more than in our primary and secondary schools.

The state of California must build a new school every day for the foreseeable future in order to keep up with demand on the education system brought by the illegals. Florida, Georgia, Texas, Arizona, New Mexico and the remainder of the South can see their future in California now.

Nothing should be done to encourage more illegal immigration - not in state tuition or anything else.

By deegee

May 10, 2007 10:52 AM | Link to this

Ms. Writer, that your friend got a student visa in the first place speaks well of her. Your friend could have overstayed her visa as many do, but she would need to find an employer that would agree to hire her unlawfully if she wanted to stay and work. This is typically not an option for people that have money and resources. Those that come here illegally do so because they have no money and there is no viable legal option for them to come and work legally. This is what congress must change. Immigrants have always overwhelmingly filled unskilled and semi-skilled jobs in this country. It’s work that brings them here and they shouldn’t be penalized when the US speaks out of both sides of their mouth on this issue.

By deber

May 10, 2007 10:56 AM | Link to this

OMGootness… As if illegal aliens arent getting enough breaks, in what has become our overly PC society, we should now class them as in-state tuition. Why not just let them go for free??? File the papers, say the oath & adhere to our cultures without forcing us to live in yours. If your culture was so important, why leave? If you want your country to be better, come here, file for a student visa, pay out-of-country tuition, get your degree, go back home & *help your country. Personal responsibility, what a novel idea.

By JK

May 10, 2007 10:56 AM | Link to this

Let me get this straight: the child came here with his parents at the age of 10? How is a child to blame for that decision? THEN, deciding to be a good kid instead of a bad kid (personal responsibility — the only decision he was ABLE to make about his own life), he studies and graduates. THEN, trying to be a better, smarter, more responsible human being, he continues his education, most likely sacrificing material comforts that the THUGS his age manage to grab.

And the “Solution” is to punish this kid for being a good kid instead of addressing the issue of undocumented migration of foreigners into our society? Seriously, Mr. Wooten…. Is that the best you can do?

By deber

May 10, 2007 10:57 AM | Link to this

OMGootness… As if illegal aliens arent getting enough breaks, in what has become our overly PC society, we should now class them as in-state tuition. Why not just let them go for free??? File the papers, say the oath & adhere to our cultures without forcing us to live in yours. If your culture was so important, why leave? If you want your country to be better, come here, file for a student visa, pay out-of-country tuition, get your degree, go back home & *help your country. Personal responsibility, what a novel idea.

By Ms Writer

May 10, 2007 10:58 AM | Link to this

Deegee—-I understand your point, but you have to realize that with a system like we have now where illegals enter the country willy-nilly, there is no way to diffrentiate between the good and the bad—we can’t ignore that we are also getting murderers, drug dealers, robbers—-illegal aliens, mostly Mexicans, are draining our systems—the only solutions are to either discourage them from coming here or raising taxes to high hell to accomodate them. What is your vote?

By Aquagirl

May 10, 2007 10:59 AM | Link to this

Deegee @ 10:17, at least you get right to the basics of your argument. You see the law as a way to satisfy the desire (expressed so eloquently by Ms Writer 10:32) to punish illegals.

I agree, there are plenty of people who complain about in-state tuition for illegals and having to press “1” for English in the same breath. The law isn’t just in reference to tuition, it’s part of a law covering other state services. It is indeed meant to “punish” individuals, to achieve an overall effect on society.

Jim’s example of traffic laws is good. It’s not so much about ticketing the red-light runner, even if we feel that vicarious thrill when we see one caught. It’s to encourage behavior on a larger scale. The 12 million or so folks here do have to be worked into our society. They ain’t going home. Duh. But by tightening laws providing benefits, and arresting employers who draw them here, we can avoid having another 12 million…or more. And we can also avoid discouraging legal immigration, which I agree needs to be loosened and reformed. I pretty much am with jbmlaw’s idea that if you accept the responsibilities, citizenship should be yours. But we’d have to change a lot of things about our system to accommodate that, sadly enough.

Happy? Probably not. Denying benefits, to you, is only done to be mean to illegals. I doubt you will abandon your bleeding-heart position of the opposition being cruel, while you’re just a kind-hearted clearthinking human being.

By getalife

May 10, 2007 10:59 AM | Link to this

Cut the funding.

Its just not for Iraq anymore.

Prosecute the employers.

Makes them pay penalities they can’t afford and watch them go home.

By Van

May 10, 2007 11:01 AM | Link to this

Folks,

I guess you are all correct. Why should we force foreign students that come here through the proper channels to pay the higher out of state tuition?

Why should we even bother with student visas?

Why should we even bother with immigration control and laws?

Let throw our borders wide open and let everyone in. Let start with the Albanian Muslim illegals that targeted Fort Dix in New Jersey. BTW, good placement in the AJC this morning, what was it a little blurb on A14 or 17.

As jbmlaw says, citizenship is worthless(free) and everyone should have it. It means nothing.

Folks, I must apologize to those lawful foreign students paying too much for an education, how backward we are.

By Ms Writer

May 10, 2007 11:05 AM | Link to this

America provides Medicaid to illegal mothers to pay for their delivery.

America provides Medicaid to the children of illegal aliens.

America provides food stamps to the children of illegal aliens.

America provides an education for illegal children.

Illegal aliens can purchase homes, cars, and get bank accounts from major banks without social security numbers.

Can the average American do any of these things in ANY other country in the world??

By Jack

May 10, 2007 11:08 AM | Link to this

money for nothing, checks for free.

By deegee

May 10, 2007 11:16 AM | Link to this

“The 12 million or so folks here do have to be worked into our society. They ain’t going home. Duh. But by tightening laws providing benefits, and arresting employers who draw them here, we can avoid having another 12 million…or more. And we can also avoid discouraging legal immigration, which I agree needs to be loosened and reformed.”

Aquagirl, I couldn’t agree more. Absolutley no one is marching for the right to enter illegally and remain an illegal alien in this country. Nor is anyone advocating that we naturalize dangerous felons and habitual criminals. It is in our best interest to bring otherwise law-abiding illegal workers, and their US born families out of the shadows and into the mainstream. Congress needs to work with industrialists, economists and demographers to determine what the right mix should be going forward. What we have right now is not working, and it’s not your grandfather’s USA anymore.

By Van

May 10, 2007 11:18 AM | Link to this

To paraphrase the President elect of France, Nobody has to live in America, but when you live in America, you respect the rules.

By harold

May 10, 2007 11:25 AM | Link to this

HOW CAN WE EVEN CALL THEM ILLEGALS WHEN THE THINKING RIGHT PRESIDENT ROLLS OUT THE WELCOME MAT FOR THEM? HYPOCRITES!

OK MAYBE THE PRESIDENT IS JUST ‘RIGHT.’

‘THINKING’ IS A BIT MUCH FOR HIM

By liberals are still verminous SCUM

May 10, 2007 11:27 AM | Link to this

Illegal Mexican type leeches and all other illegals should, as harold nobly and sensibly proposes, be denied any state funded/public education. They should ALL be rounded up and deported, EXACTLY as illegals are when caught in the corrupt backward sh!thole known as Mexico.

It is utterly pathetic and absolutely disgusting that any of them are allowed to be educated in the USA. This simply encourages the illegal infestation to grow like an out of control cancer. ALL legal immigrants and student visa holders comply with OUR laws, why should illegals be given the right to freeload and deprive actual Americans who are already in many places suffering from scarce enough funds and resources?

Perhaps my mate jbm who ‘seems’ to be part of the moveyour bowels.org G SOREos open borders crowd would kindly tell us exactly how many illegals is enough? Is there ever a number that is enough? Should the whole of Mexico be allowed to slither over here if they simply decide they want to just walk across the border - and then the rest of Central America and so on? After all at least 10% of the whole effing population of the drug smuggling backward sh!tehole is ALREADY HERE … with their snouts deep in the welfare/education/health care trough etc. How many more illegal AfriKans? What about AIDS carriers? What about mohammedan terrorists - if there are NO checks and NO enforcement then we are all at risk!!

Come on lefties - tell us … how many criminal illegals should we tolerate? How many gangbangers, DUI killers, murderers, rapists, child molestors, muggers, etc. There’s more than enough US citizens and legal residents who perpetrate crimes without the sick and twisted pandering liberal sanctuary cities adding to the problems.

What is the point of having immigration laws if they are NOT properly applied and enforced? Which other laws do we just ignore?

The left are trying to destroy the very fabric of America with their open borders bollocks. English only signs and telephone voice mail options should be the norm everywhere (except in very limited areas like airports and border crossings and huge gleaming new INS jails) … NO MORE PANDERING!!

By HAROLD

May 10, 2007 11:27 AM | Link to this

harold is starting to think the dating blog is more relevant than this one

By deegee

May 10, 2007 11:33 AM | Link to this

Ms Writer, sales taxes aside, it’s simply untrue that illegal workers don’t pay taxes. They work under phony or fraudulent obtained social security numbers in order to shield employers from paying fines if the business is raided. The workers are supplying today’s retirees with their retirement income. By the govt’s own estimates within 15 years there will not be enough documented workers to pay retirees’ benefits unless something is done. That should disturb you. Here are some facts for you:

Starting in the late 1980’s, the Social Security Administration received a flood of W-2 earnings reports with incorrect - sometimes simply fictitious - Social Security numbers. It stashed them in what it calls the “earnings suspense file” in the hope that someday it would figure out whom they belonged to.

The file has been mushrooming ever since: $189 billion worth of wages ended up recorded in the suspense file over the 1990’s, two and a half times the amount of the 1980’s.

In the current decade, the file is growing, on average, by more than $50 billion a year, generating $6 billion to $7 billion in Social Security tax revenue and about $1.5 billion in Medicare taxes.

By liberals are still verminous SCUM

May 10, 2007 11:35 AM | Link to this

I see the witless deranged panderer feminazi JK is puking up the usual despicable far leftist emotive bollocks - ignore ALL the laws and pander to any poor wittle illegal immigrant!!

And as ever crackpipe has been smoking some real bad rocks this morning!!!

STFU crackpipe!!

By ron

May 10, 2007 11:36 AM | Link to this

By liberals are still verminous SCUM

May 10, 2007 11:38 AM | Link to this

harold is starting to think the dating blog is more relevant than this one

that’s because harold as usual is getting hammered and being exquisitely embarassed by the facts and stone cold legalistic logic!!

By getalife

May 10, 2007 11:39 AM | Link to this

“lies” is back.

Go away like Blair you bloody wanker.

Geez®

“After winning the election run-off against Socialist Segolene Royal on Sunday, Sarkozy left for a two-day retreat near Malta aboard the luxury yacht of a billionaire friend, provoking ridicule and anger among opposition parties.”

Van loves him.

Double geez.

By Ms Writer

May 10, 2007 11:45 AM | Link to this

Deegee— whether it is using a STOLEN ss# or committing another crime, I refuse to support the plight of the poor illegal alien. It’s not right. It is funny though that many are very religious but when it comes to lying, the selective Christianity goes out of the window.

“Ms Writer, sales taxes aside, it’s simply untrue that illegal workers don’t pay taxes. They work under phony or fraudulent obtained social security numbers in order to shield employers from paying fines if the business is raided. The workers are supplying today’s retirees with their retirement income.”

I work in an industry where I get to see the “check stubs” from illegal aliens and under state tax there is NOTHING taken out. I have the proof as I sit and type to you NOW.—-Deegee - you go try to make up or steal a ss# and see how far you get as you try to pick up the soap as you sit in a Federal prison.

Illegal aliens send millions if not billions back to MExico—-helping that economy, while they drain OURS.

As far as sales taxes—-that is an idiotic argument…..paying sales taxes is not enough to support our schools, government et cetera..they are DRAINING the system.

By liberals are still verminous SCUM

May 10, 2007 11:46 AM | Link to this

STFU maggot brain!!

as ever you have bugger all to say.

Sarkozy will crack down on the illegal filth in France … damn shame Bush the coward is too much of a leftist pandering pu$$y to do it here!!

Almost anything that enrages lefties is marvellous!! Lefties are invariably inbred SCUM and are much too generously tolerated by clear thinking sensible conservative, centre-right folks. Liquidate the treasonous cut and run leftist filth and America is almost immediately back to the glory days!!

By Big K

May 10, 2007 11:48 AM | Link to this

With Bush making speaches about giving amnesty to all illegals, and waiving the H1-B visa cap how can you people blame this on ‘liberals’? In Bushes NWO, there will be the filthy rich and the filthy poor - nothing in between. The more jobs are given to illegal cheap mexicans, and cheap awful Indians, the more the people at the top can keep all the profits for themselves, while getting rid of pensions and health benefits. I’ll be spending my Friday night working - cleaning up the mess left by a worthless Indian that was fired last week, and I won’t get paid any overtime for it. Bush says they are the best and brightest - I say they suck, I catch them in too many lies and clean up way too many of their messes. Big layoffs are happening in the tech world, very experienced talented people can’t find work, and more and more horrible cheap Indian workers are hired by the minute.

By getalife

May 10, 2007 11:51 AM | Link to this

OMG, “lies” called w a coward.

Welcome to the reality based community.

Now, let me see your immigration papers.

By JK

May 10, 2007 11:53 AM | Link to this

We DO need to address the tide of those entering this country illegally. I believe the “Department of Homeland Security” has not been adequately funded or directed to protect our borders and ports, through which many varieties of undocumented people arrive daily. Maybe spending all our (BORROWED) money in a war on the other side of the planet is not the best way to take care of business here at home, afterall, huh?

Whatever your ideas or suggestions for addressing this complex, multi-faceted issue, PUNISHING THE CHILDREN is cruel and cowardly.

Your beloved leaders dropped the ball on this one, folks, not the little brown children who just want to eat and go to school. Freaking BIGOTS.

By liberals are still verminous SCUM

May 10, 2007 11:55 AM | Link to this

maggot brain

Bush is undenibaly a coward when it comes to the illegal infestation. He is marginally better on illegals than the Arkansas rapist though!!

Unlike YOU Castrolovingdogturdbrain I am a US CITIZEN!!

By getalife

May 10, 2007 11:56 AM | Link to this

Big K,

We have come a long way from when you were given cars to work IT.

It is all about cheap labor and w’s secret corporate utopia agenda is the North American Union.

By getalife

May 10, 2007 11:58 AM | Link to this

Post your papers “lies”.

Wanker.

By liberals are still verminous SCUM

May 10, 2007 12:02 PM | Link to this

HA HA HA HA … feminazi JK is still sickeningly puking up its vile leftist pandering bollocks …

its blindingly obvious - the kiddies of illegals shouldn’t be here, nor should they be educated at tax payer expense … swiftly and humanely sending them ALL BACK is the ONLY way to deal with the illegal infestation.

The only “bigots” here feminazi JK are the odious lefty panderers and despicable illegal apologists who are destroying the USA and depriving US Citizens of their rights and tax payer funded resources.

By liberals are still verminous SCUM

May 10, 2007 12:04 PM | Link to this

post yours maggot brain … you’re the greasy treasonous hate America Kuban Kommie illegal here!!

By deegee

May 10, 2007 12:04 PM | Link to this

Ms. Writer, why don’t you get your broad a$$ out from behind that desk and stand in front of a dishwashing machine for 12 hours a day, 7 days a week and then tell me that you think it’s fine for the government to tell you that you can’t send your hard-earned wages back to a sick mother or father to help keep them alive. Let your son or your husband go out in the hot summer sun and tile roofs on McMansions all day and then tell me how it feels to have people call you SCUM. We live in a country where people working in construction install toilets that cost more than what that worker can make in a year in their country of origin. Pathetic.

By Betty Humpter

May 10, 2007 12:12 PM | Link to this

Land mines along the southern US border are the answer. While we’re at it, why don’t we outline the entire state of GA in land mines so that the residents can’t escape. Nobody wants dumb Georgians or illegal “resident aliens” in their states.

By jbmlaw

May 10, 2007 12:15 PM | Link to this

Welcome back, dear lasvSCUM @ 11:27. It has been quiet, glad you are here. You ask, “how many more?” I’d say around 3 billion – if you want to exclude the 1 billion who seem to be part of every terrorist act on the planet, that is ok by me. Let everyone else in. As to “gangbangers, DUI killers, murderers, rapists, child molesters, muggers,” I’d say we have already cornered the market on those, doubt that there are any left outside US urban areas. Far from “destroying” the fabric of America, I want to get them here and convert them to Americanism. On balance, may improve the average morality here.

By Captain Freedom

May 10, 2007 12:20 PM | Link to this

The Captain, whose sole life mission is to demonstrate the true coherence and moral depth of the Right Thinking White American Male, finds it difficult to compete with Jeff in this regard.

In fact, every aspect of the Captain’s mission statement is achieved and amplified every time Jeff takes the time to post one of his well-thought, logically taut, and cliche-naught opinions.

Certainly every bit as valuable to the Right Thinking cause as TFTT (now preferring to be known as SCUM), Jeff proves the dictum: With friends like this, who needs an enema?

By liberals are still verminous SCUM

May 10, 2007 12:21 PM | Link to this

I see heebeedeegee is hilariously puking up the same kind of illegal apologist emotive bollocks that feminazi JK et al are.

Illegals have NO business being here … when Mexico starts:

handing out welfare/free education/health care etc to illiterate poorly educated, increasingly violent (gangbanging) illegals and allows ANYONE to walk across its borders whilst destroying farmers’ property and intimidating local citizens, letting them stay for years and years and NOT be subject to arrest in leftist sanctuary cities, rewards evil lying drug smugglers by jailing innocent Border Patrol agents whilst giving the drug smuggler immunity - even when the scumbag smuggles more drugs into the USA … when Mexico ruins the education of countless of its young citizens and all the other outrages perpetrated in the name of “illegal rights” … THEN AND ONLY THEN will law abiding Americans maybe take the vaguest notice of your deranged dishonest bollocks!!

By DebbieDoRight

May 10, 2007 12:23 PM | Link to this

But by tightening laws providing benefits, and arresting employers who draw them here, we can avoid having another 12 million…or more

EXACTLY!!! Let’s go after some of these employers who are hiring illegals….. Let’s start with WALMART; one of the biggest in this country. They knowingly hire 3rd party agencies who knowingly hire illegals. Then let’s go after MCCONNEL / DOUGLAS; again they knowingly hire 3rd party agencies who knowingly hire illegals.

Why would these mega rich companies do this? Why to keep COSTS DOWN!!! They’ve just saved you $1.10 on that new sony!!

Until we go after the EMPLOYERS, (which, noticeably Jim or that GA. Senator doesn’t even WANT to mention doing), nothing is gonna change. No one wants to talk or take action on the REAL reason illegals are here. If no one HIRED AN ILLEGAL, there wouldn’t be any illegals; because there’d be no more jobs for them to come here for.

And there are plenty of other illegals in this country; why are Mexicans the only ones targeted for disdain?

By Ms Writer

May 10, 2007 12:24 PM | Link to this

deegee—-waaahhh waaaahhh - stop crying idiot…keep thinking that illegal aliens are innocent victims..(can you see the tear falling down Jose;s face?) They make more money than most of the people on this blog—they just lie about it when it comes to proving it to get Medicaid and Food Stamps….see reality.

By RCH

May 10, 2007 12:30 PM | Link to this

In state tuition,out of state tuition,neither. They are illegal! How about out of country they go.

By liberals are still verminous SCUM

May 10, 2007 12:40 PM | Link to this

crackpipe’s disgusting dumbarsed dishonesty @ Mexican types is fooking hilarious … the BLINDINGLY OBVIOUS reason illegal Mexicans are held in such open contempt is that at least 10% of the entire population of the backward corrupt sh!tehole that is Mexico is already festering here. They are by far the biggest part of the illegal infestation!! They even have racist .orgs like the hate group called La Raza spewing out anti-gringo hate, they mostly refuse to learn - let alone speak English, they cancel their car insurance the day after buying it putting everyone at risk, killing folks in DUI’s and all the other criminal outrages they perpetrate.

and a suitably hefty kick in the treasonous anti-American tiny bollocks for L. Cpl Syphilis who sadly has not fatally succumbed to its decade old San Fran Sicko Bathhouse STD yet!!

alright jbm? I note you were simply trying to sardonically (look it up crackpipe) goad the illegal pandering leftists with your OTT response.

By getalife

May 10, 2007 12:44 PM | Link to this

“lies”,

I was born in Las Vegas.

Where were you hatched wanker?

By Betty Humpter

May 10, 2007 12:48 PM | Link to this

With all of the problems going on with the dog food companies, why don’t we just round up them Mexicans and turn ‘em into meat!?! I hear Mexicans taste like chicken.

By catlady

May 10, 2007 12:54 PM | Link to this

How many of these tuition waivers have we been giving? My understanding, state wide is less than 100. It is going to students whose parents dragged them here. They (students) worked very hard (harder than a lot of our Sonny-bubbas do), learned another language enough to get credits and pass the exit exam (unlike a lot of our native-born kids), got accepted into a college, and their families paid taxes all the while they have been here (income, real estate, purchasing, gasoline, etc, etc). They would make da**ed good citizens if they become eligible. They sure aren’t going to fit in if they go back “home”. Let’s send some of our non-performers in their place.

Now, it is not our fault (well, yes it is sort of, thanks to our government policies and employers willingness to turn a blind eye) that they were dragged here and it isn’t our fault that they won’t fit in back home. But since it seems that our leaders are NOT going to send them home, and ARE going to eventually get some kind of “amnesty” set up, don’t we want these folks to be prepared to contribute? We are not talking about folks who have just arrived, and we are not talking about adults, and we are not talking about students who can barely read and write. We are talking about bright young people (who will undoubtedly be citizens eventually) who have achieved 12 years of education frequently in half that time. Is it that we are jealous that some of the illegal immigrants are so much smarter and harder working than our own kids?

Yeah, yeah. I agree about the evils of being illegal. And it should not have happened. However, it has, and we should be prepared to make some lemonaide out of it, IMHO.

By liberals are still verminous SCUM

May 10, 2007 12:55 PM | Link to this

maggot brain’s bare faced lies are still magical, fabulous entertainment … it was actually spawned as a result of a very primitive Third World genetic engineering project at the same Genocidal Komrades brothel in Havana where its familial zoological lines were first puked up with a test tube ‘liason’ between a castrated marxist Bush hating extra chromosomed rattle snake and a slimy albino hermaphroditic warthog.

By Aquagirl

May 10, 2007 12:55 PM | Link to this

Until we go after the EMPLOYERS, (which, noticeably Jim or that GA. Senator doesn’t even WANT to mention doing), nothing is gonna change. No one wants to talk or take action on the REAL reason illegals are here. If no one HIRED AN ILLEGAL, there wouldn’t be any illegals; because there’d be no more jobs for them to come here for.

Bingo, Debbie! Republicans would rather pretend they’re all here for the climate, or just took a wrong turn in Ixtapa. They blather about the decency of illegal immigrants while remaining silent about the big corporations that have created the situation and make big profits.

Deegee would rather show fake compassion and encourage illegals to come here and roof houses and wash dishes. That’s not compassion, that’s just short-sighted bleeding-heart wussy thinking.

By JK

May 10, 2007 12:56 PM | Link to this

Troof said: swiftly and humanely sending them ALL BACK is the ONLY way to deal with the illegal infestation.

Sure, Sparky! What an Einstein you are! Tell us then please, the logistics of your brilliant plan. Nevermind that we’re trillions in debt from the escapades in Iraq, and cannot fund the inspection of cargo coming into the ports, nor most of the food that we consume…

How many people need to be hired to round up 12 million illegals and hold them (allowing for one small meal a day, and one toilet per 300 people) and then transport them to their points of origin, and HOW MUCH WILL THAT COST, and who’s budget is it coming out of, exactly, and how much will everyone’s taxes go up (or how much more will we borrow from China) to pay for it? Will these be government employees with benefits, private contractors from the Halliboys (tripling the cost for minimal results), or will other illegals be hired with NO benefits to do the dirty work? Number crunching time!

I eagerly await your stunningly quick mathematical and bugetary assessments. Please get back to us all forthwith, while we wait on the edge of our seats to be enlightened!

By getalife

May 10, 2007 1:00 PM | Link to this

Your dodging the question “lies”.

Which part of England wanker?

By getalife

May 10, 2007 1:07 PM | Link to this

Nevermind “lies”( due to your new name, I will call you “SCUM”)you are an illegal immigrant.

Admit it “SCUM”.

By RCH

May 10, 2007 1:16 PM | Link to this

There seems to be two main elements to this problem. 1) We need the workers. Solution; Establish private companies that hire workers inside that country that can issue work visas and supply that worker to companies that need them. The company pays the agencey and the agencey pays the worker. When they are no longer needed they are shipped back to the country of origin.After a period of time these workers may petition for citizenship.They may bring their immediate family here, but they must leave when the worker leaves.Also,any child born to these guest workers are NOT U.S. citizens.They pay taxes and are accorded basic services. 2) Illegals are not only Hispanic.They come from many different countries.Illegal is colorblind and is not racist.If these individuals cannot wait to come here and break the law doing so,what laws will they respect. Just the ones deemed right for them at this time.A child of illegals cannot be afforded legal status. A product of a crime cannot be legal. If I robbed a bank and put the money in another to draw interest and then gave the principal back would I get to keep that interest. Right. You cannot make a wrong a right by simpley saying so.

By liberals are still verminous SCUM

May 10, 2007 1:19 PM | Link to this

feminazi JK

rounding up the illegal scum will be simple enough and great fun for patriotic Americans selflessly serving their country. For Mexican illegals we simply immediately utilise the underused goods train/cattle truck railway lines at centrally/regionally placed loading centres. eg Atlanta, Birmingham, NYC, Fran Sicko, Chicago. Denver etc. The majority of all illegals - being Mexicans - will be dumped at border crossings at the newly electrified 2000+ mile 25ft fence on the southern border. THose needing to be sent further afield will be shipped back on secure prison ships (to prevent rioting/mutiny) to the THird World dumps they came from. EU and Antipdoean illegals will be swiftly repatriated by their embassies. Canadian illegals will be forced to publicly apologise on Cable TV News for their govt’s historic leftist anti-America hate before being deported at the US border crossing furthest from their home state.

Rounding all illegals up will ensure that US Citizens needing a job will get one. Its a superb job federal level creation scheme. It will be easily funded by simply diverting the uterly wasted BILLIONS in funds currently p!ssed away on illegal leeches sucking up welfare/free education/healthcare etc.

BTW … the right of endless wastefully expensive pointless appeals will be done away with … illegal means illegal. Apart from a few genuine refugees who compassionately should not be turned away anyone here illegal here f@@ks off back home right away!! Naturally the US confiscates their property - other than one standard suitcase of stuff - to help fund the cost of repatriation!!

By deegee

May 10, 2007 1:23 PM | Link to this

“Deegee would rather show fake compassion and encourage illegals to come here and roof houses and wash dishes. That’s not compassion, that’s just short-sighted bleeding-heart wussy thinking.”

Aquagirl, that is the rudest thing I have ever seen on this blog, verminous SCUM included. First of all, I am no advocate of illegal immigration. I advocate legal immigration. Secondly, I would be happier if no Mexican would ever have to cross the border and subject themself to the human degradation that many Americans are happy to reap upon them. What they know is that if you have to choose between living and working like an outcast and saving the life of your sick child, the decision is not complicated. Aquagirl, I don’t know what in your life has gone so terribly wrong but you seem to be a very unhappy individual.

By liberals are still verminous SCUM

May 10, 2007 1:33 PM | Link to this

poor old greaseball maggot brain …

I have told it and the other senile/ memory challenged leftist filth several times on here that I am mostly from the London/SE area. Brought up in leafy suburban Surrey but then as a student and as an adult I lived in numerous parts of England, including the West Country, the Black Country, the North East, Cornwall and of course the Home Counties.

Scum is fine by me maggot brain - it will simply show us all how eagerly you accept the ‘tautological’ wisdom of my factual statement new user id, albeit somewhat abbreviated.

By Aquagirl

May 10, 2007 1:34 PM | Link to this

A temporary worker program would never fly…employers need hard workers who are willing to work for less than minimum wage and who won’t complain when they lose a hand in a factory press.

Really, why do you think they’re all here? And why do you think industries that employ them want to hire them as legal workers?

Catlady wants to make lemonade while the rest of Mexico and Central America rots. What, no compassion for the non- immigrants who are left in communities without the future doctors, engineers, etc?

This isn’t about 100 kids getting in-state tuition. It’s about our willingness to use illegals for cheap crappy labor while their countries go to hell in a handbasket. And take the non- (illegal)immigrants with them. Where’s your compassion for the students in Tegucigalpa? Oh, it’s easier to ignore them while thinking you’re so much nicer than those illegal-bashers. Weak!

By AM

May 10, 2007 1:39 PM | Link to this

Why should we reward people who break the law, forge documents and steal identities? Maybe we all should forge Masters degree so we can better our lives. It is totally absurd to defend LAWBREAKERS PERIOD. I work hard everyday so I can afford to send my kids to college - WHY WOULD WE REWARD LAWBREAKERS??

By liberals are still verminous SCUM

May 10, 2007 1:49 PM | Link to this

Aquahag pukes up a superb, utterly irrelevant putrid leftist hissy fit!!

The ONLY folks responsible for corrupt backward sh!teholes like Mexico are the bloody Mexicans or citizens of whatever third world dump they are from. If they stop breeding like semi-literate poorly educated rabbits and ceased electing corrupt venal grasping oppressive govts they could - just like sophisticated advanced Norway has done - actually utilise their vast oil wealth for the benefit of their citizens who all proudly speak spanish because of long ago genocidal spanish imperialism!!

I have little or NO sympathy for Mexicans - they are by definition from a foreign sovereign nation. They all - except the legal ones - need to immediately f@@k off back home!!

the legal ones who stay can run a few mexican food places to ensure that once a year I can have a stale chalupa and greasy refried beans - if I want to!!

By RCH

May 10, 2007 1:51 PM | Link to this

Aquagirl, When the Swift meatpacking plant was raided ,the illegals where working under false identities,recieving REGULAR wages and benifits.Sure, many of the guest workers who come here would have low paying jobs,but so would there tax obligation and a lot more than the countries they come from.As their skills improve so would there ability to earn more.

By Aquagirl

May 10, 2007 2:03 PM | Link to this

deegee,

First of all, I am no advocate of illegal immigration. I advocate legal immigration.

Really? The why aren’t you pushing for all those students here on legal visas to get the same benefits as illegals?

Secondly, I would be happier if no Mexican would ever have to cross the border and subject themself to the human degradation that many Americans are happy to reap upon them.

ME TOO! but the only way that will happen is if Mexico starts feeding, employing, and taking care of Mexicans. We cannot possibly do it. You’re just feeling all compassionate because you want to take care of the kids who were brought here illegally. Once again…what about the Mexican kids who couldn’t get here? Or the Mexican mother who can’t cross the border, and has to watch her child die from lack of even basic medical care? Mexico has plenty of resources. Oil, decent, hard-working people, tourism, they can do it.

Quit being a weak sister. And drop the tactic of “oh, Aquagirl, you’re so unhappy”. When you can’t provide a rational answer as to why you think non-immigrants can just pound sand up their a*, saying I’m unhappy is a hysterical girl scout non-answer. My happiness level is fine. The average citizen of Mexico’s is not. Not that you give a flying flip about them if it involves anything messy or unpleasant to your lilly-minded self.

You’re not willing to do anything but hide your head in the sand and salve your conscience with a little tuition. Keep your head there. It’ll muffle your babblings.

Is that rude enough for you? You deserve every bit of it for perching that Clueless-Queenie- Liberal-Compassion tiara on your head.

By Jack

May 10, 2007 2:03 PM | Link to this

jbmlaw. If the illegals who use fake id’s and soc. sec. cards, what taxes do they pay other than sales tax? If their paperwork is fake, where is their income taxes going?

See. If the fair tax was in play, all of the illegals, dope dealers et al, would pay their fair share and Uncle Sam would have plenty of moola.

By Dennis

May 10, 2007 2:05 PM | Link to this

By Ms Writer May 10, 2007 11:45 AM “Illegal aliens send millions if not billions back to MExico—-helping that economy, while they drain OURS.”

Although some might think this is a strange thing to say (since I am deemed a “liberal”) this is a good point by Ms Writer, sending the salaries back to Mexico rather than being used to stimulate the economy in this country (or any other homeland).

And, given the outcry by “liberals” as to how much illegals contribute to the economy of this country, what they send “home” must be a considerable amount.

Therefore, instead of that amount stimulating the economy of this country, you and I make up for it when the manufactures (who are benefiting from cheap labor) pass the “consumer “savings”? on to Americans.

You don’t have to be a blind conservative not to see it, just an ignorant one to deny it.

By liberals are still verminous SCUM

May 10, 2007 2:08 PM | Link to this

see RCH … the pandering whining lefties on here cannot anser any of the points - other than to puke up the tired, worn out, speciously despicable race card or post pathetic emotive bleating bollocks. Dishonest lefties always ignore ALL laws they dont like or that don’t suit their political purpose/world view.

Lou Dobbs is right - the US could deport all illegals … and it damn well should!! Starting in San Fran Sicko - just to enrage the pinko cut and run America haters for our entertainment on Fox News.

By getalife

May 10, 2007 2:10 PM | Link to this

Told ya “SCUM” is illegal and needs deported.

Better yet, send him to Gitmo because he hates Americans and is a enemy combatant.

By Ms Writer

May 10, 2007 2:16 PM | Link to this

Mexico is the world’s 3rd largest producer of oil ———-PUSH THEIR CORRUPT GOVERNMENT TO TAKE CARE OF THEIR PEOPLE!

By JohnD

May 10, 2007 2:19 PM | Link to this

This is not a liberal or conservative issue. This issue affects us all and will be the end of our culture if not addressed.

jbmlaw, there are 4.5 billion people in the world who live below the level of the poorest in the US. We are incapable of saving them all, either here or through foreign aid.

If we continue with open borders the US will be over run and our culture and standard of living will disappear as surely as day follows night. The US will become a third world nation since we have neither the money nor resources to support the poverty stricken throughout the world.

The problems created by the illegals we have now are too numerous to list in this space. Public schools, gas prices and consumption, failure to obey the laws (immigration, traffic, etc.), social/welfare system over load, and on and on. There is no motivation for the illegals to obey our laws when the local governments are unable to deport them.

Whatever the cost, whatever logistical problems we face, regardless of the sentiment of the Central and South American countries - we must close our borders and deport all the illegals. We deport illegals on a regular basis now, we just need to ramp up the program.

By RCH

May 10, 2007 2:27 PM | Link to this

John D I agree.We can have a flexable work program to fullfill open jobs, But to the cost of transporting them back to their homeland,that is easy.No illigal shall recieve ; housing, jobs, education, medical, social services etc. They will leave on their own accord.

By liberals are still verminous SCUM

May 10, 2007 2:29 PM | Link to this

I had naturally assumed that maggot brain was already imprisoned at Club Gitmo and had sadly been given regular internet access in return for daily sexual favours for one the mohammedan ‘chaplains’. Were’nt you that towel head rent boy being dragged around in chains on the O’Reilly Factor maggot brain a while back when Bill went to see how good a job the US Army/CIA lads are doing at interrogating these scum??!!

By jbmlaw

May 10, 2007 2:32 PM | Link to this

Dear lasvSCUM @ 12:40, muy bien, y usted?

Daer Jack @ 2:03, I agree almost in toto with your arguments. Another excellent reason for Fair Tax. (I respectfully note that our undocumented friends still have taxes withheld, both by IRS and FICA, so for the most part they pay taxes and derive no direct benefit therefrom.

Dear JohnD @ 2:19, I do not want us to save the rest of the world, I wish to enable the rest of the world to save itself. Only with something approaching the US freedom guarantees can people achieve their fullest potentials.

By Rick in Lawrenceville

May 10, 2007 2:46 PM | Link to this

Dave (one of the early posters): I agree with you and your reason on this issue.

Why should a foreign student with a valid visa (did not break US immigration law) PAY MORE in tuition than a resident ILLEGAL student who has broken our immigration laws?

That simply rewards criminal behavior.

Many illegal residents have already been provided an education on the taxpayer dime! Do we really want to subsidize a college education for lawbreakers over students who have valid visas?

By RCH

May 10, 2007 2:53 PM | Link to this

As many of you know,with the introduction of HOPE etc.,many more Georgians can afford tuition,yet they can’t get into great schools because there is no room.Lets let Americans fill all spaces first then worry about aliens.illegal or not.

By Aquagirl

May 10, 2007 3:10 PM | Link to this

RCH, those illegals may have been working for the regular rate. But a few days after the raid, some legal workers filed a RICO lawsuit, saying that Swift, by hiring illegals, was deliberately lowering the average wages. According to the legal workers, the pay had dropped since the plant opened from $20 to $12-13 per hour.

Illegal immigrants are willing to do the same job as an American for less because sending $5 a day back home makes a huge change in the family’s standard of living. Living 12 to a house in Lilburn (illegal here) is better than living most anywhere in the slums of Mexico.

Swift, and other employers, have exploited that to make cheaper products and increase profits. But we end up paying for cheaper meat (or carpet, or whatever illegals help produce) in the form of in-state tuition, food stamps, and other social services.

That .89 per pound chicken don’t look so cheap now, does it?

By catlady

May 10, 2007 3:19 PM | Link to this

Rick and dave: Except that foreign students (with a valid visa) frequently get out of state tuition waivers, and foreign (with valid visa) grad students often get a FULL tuition waiver (don’t pay in or out of state tuition) so be aware of that when you opine. In other words, they get a better deal than a lot of Georgia kids anyway, and they haven’t been here for years with their families working and paying taxes. Plus they have anchor babies left and right also.

jack, the taxes withheld from the work of the “misdocumented” goes into the general treasury fund, eventually. They cannot claim it. So maybe some of them are doing us a favor?

Maybe my ideas earlier sound kind of Pollyannaish but we are going to have to accept that there is no polical will (or money) by politicians or their friends, the larger business owners, to deport the folks already here. It is not going to happen. That is reality. Heck, we cannot get them to secure the borders effectively!

And yeah, I do feel for those “left behind” but realistically there are things we can do something about and things we cannot. We cannot make Mexico or any other country clean up its act. We’ve gone to a lot of expense in lives and money to show this in Iraq. We are just funding irresponsibility and a welfare mentality, along with lining a lot of crooks’ pockets. (That is one reason I am so surprised about the Republican support for the Iraq war: it goes against the very principle of keeping government out of other’s affairs.)

By RCH

May 10, 2007 3:30 PM | Link to this

Aquagirl, According to what I read,starting salaries were around $13. Some workers including illegals were making $15. Still not bad for unskilled labor. However you forgot to mention these illegals were working under stollen identities. I hope you don’t get this tax bill. And the next day there was a long line to get these jobs by Americans. As to your second statement,you are right. Its either pay more for the product,or more in taxes. Thats why I support the fair tax. Everybody pays,including that illegal allien that now pays NOTHING.

By Aquagirl

May 10, 2007 3:38 PM | Link to this

A foreign student can get an out of state tuition waiver if they’ve been living here, but if they come here to go to school then they pay out of state for at least one year. Again, they have to follow rules. And they don’t have it better than Georgia kids, who are eligible for HOPE. Grad students for free…if we had more Americans getting advanced degrees in things we needed, they wouldn’t have to lure foreign nationals here with free tuition. The idea seems to be to “brain drain” other countries.

Why do you think we can’t do anything about Mexico? We pressure them all the time about the war on drugs, and they comply. Matter of fact, that’s one of the reasons the Mexican government is so corrupt. We don’t have to build a fence. We just need to make it clear we will not employ illegal Mexicans indiscriminately, or allow them to send huge amounts of cash back home. Doing those two things would be a lot more realistic than standing American troops on every corner in Iraq.

I fear you are right, though, about lack of political will. But then we’ve not demanded any real action from the Feds. Little wonder…we want to cut this tuition and folks like deegee collapse in a sobbing heap. Sheesh.

By RCH

May 10, 2007 3:53 PM | Link to this

Aquagirl, Speaking of Iraq,what if it was a requirement that you serve two years in the military to become a citizen. Would a)all illegals would come here willingly or b)we would have to go to all those countries were they come from and drag them over here, and c) all illegals would hightail it out of here. Just a thought.

By Betty Humpter

May 10, 2007 4:02 PM | Link to this

SAVE THE CHICKENS, EAT MEXICANS!

By JohnD

May 10, 2007 4:09 PM | Link to this

jbmlaw,

Not a question of saving the rest of the world, if we do not secure our borders, make sensible decisions on who is or is not allowed to immigrate, and then deport those illegals already here, we are inviting the 4.5 billion people outside the US to overwhelm us.

The Iraq war is an example of our effort to give “freedom” to a portion of the world unfamiliar with the concept. A noble idea but a microcosm of what we would face in the rest of the world. As happened here 230 years ago, the people must rise to the occasion and take the power away from the despot.

I am not an anarchist but if we do not take the power away from the Congress and Executive Branch already usurped for their personal benefit we will need to concern ourselves with freedom here as opposed to freedom abroad.

The only time Washington politicians and their supporters submit to the “will of the people” is when their personal agenda parallels that of the polls. More than 70% of the people wish to have our borders closed and the illegals deported; yet there is no movement in DC to follow the existing law.

The over-riding theme here today of this being a conservative versus liberal discussion is bogus. The US is almost evenly split between the two but a huge majority wishes to have the existing laws enforced.

As to the question of income taxes paid, and then forfeited, by illegals -most all illegals claim an inordinate number of withholding exemptions to avoid having any income tax withheld.

I heard today the 3 Muslim/Terrorist brothers in NJ are here illegally and had 19 traffic violations between them.

Add the above to the drunken illegal who killed the young people in Virginia who also had prior DUI’s and the problem is more than tax dollars, Social Security benefits and lower chicken prices.

By Aquagirl

May 10, 2007 4:12 PM | Link to this

I think you’d have plenty of recruits. But it seems a little counterproductive. Unless you’re talking about the French Foreign Legion or the Queen’s Gurkhas, having a large contingent of non-citizens in your armed forces isn’t generally a good idea.

Plus, who wants to share a foxhole with someone who’s just getting their green card stamped?

I think it’s a better idea to recruit some of these homie gangbangers to serve in Iraq. Just send whole gangs over there. Our thugs vs. their thugs. And ours would be better armed.

By PrissyPants

May 10, 2007 4:20 PM | Link to this

Here’s the way to prevent illegal immigrants from invading the US: don’t give them the option of joining the military to get their citizenship, but instead ALL illegals caught in our nation should be shipped to fight in Iraq whether they want to or not. Their kids can be sent back to family members or orphanages om Mexico or wherever. They’ll quit piling over the borders.

By Jackie

May 10, 2007 4:26 PM | Link to this

@Aquagirl

It appears that you may not be aware that the number of private contractors (American Foreign Legion) is Iraq is close to the actual number of US troops in Iraq; 150,000 vs more than 100,000 (they will not reveal the actual number). Secondly, there are many non-citizens in the US military today. Third, “homie gangbangers?” Sounds stereotypical to me!

By JohnD

May 10, 2007 4:31 PM | Link to this

How about sending ANY gang member in the US to Iraq to fight until the war is over?

No wait, training thugs to kill and handing them weapons is probably not a good idea.

Ok, how about deporting any gang member to a country South of Mexico where any crossing into Mexico is treated as a death penalty case?

We take their dregs so we send them ours!

By Rick in Lawrenceville

May 10, 2007 4:36 PM | Link to this

catlady: You bring up a valid point about tuition waivers that may already be in place. Now the question is:

Why should an out-of-state US citizen PAY MORE for a Georgia college education than:

(1) a foreign student with a valid visa (did not break US immigration law)

(2)a resident ILLEGAL student who has broken our immigration laws

Forget about the GRAD students, they usually work (teaching/research assistants) with undergraduate students or do thesis research that benefits the college (possibly work that can be patented) for next to nothing in wages.

By Aquagirl

May 10, 2007 4:46 PM | Link to this

@ Jackie:

I’m sorry, I shouldn’t make posts like that in the late afternoon when sarcasm-detection levels are low. My apologies if I offended.

Actually, there have been recent cases of gang members returning home and shooting folks. They have nifty pictures of themselves in Iraq flashing their cute little gang signs. We’re hiring mercenaries and accepting military recruits as long as they aren’t one of them thar hommsexsuals. Just another symptom of a stupid war that we were unprepared to fight, and lack a leader willing to do what was necessary.

@Rick

You didn’t get an answer to that question yesterday, I doubt you’ll get one today. I’d like to hear it too.

By getalife

May 10, 2007 4:57 PM | Link to this

Iraqi Lawmakers Call for U.S. Timetable

By getalife

May 10, 2007 5:19 PM | Link to this

From Bartcop:

“There’s no science that shows that silicone breast implants are detrimental and, in fact, they make you healthier.” — Tom Coburn (R-Jesus Twin)

Breast implants make you healthier? Hey, I’m going to get mine today!”

“Lesbianism is so rampant in some of the schools in southeast Oklahoma that they’ll only let one girl go to the bathroom at a time.” — Tom Coburn, (R-Jesus Twin) who is insane as the day is long.

Amazing †

By Rick in Lawrenceville

May 10, 2007 5:30 PM | Link to this

jbmlaw: 8:30 AM states, ‘Resident aliens – illegal or otherwise – are mostly taxpayers. I cannot fathom any reason we should add a “citizenship” requirement, on top of the tax-paying residency requirement, for the “in-state” tuition rates in colleges.’

I would agree with this position if all taxpayers were alike or all taxpayers didn’t care how government takes and spends the money they EARN.

We don’t have the FAIRTAX up and running yet, so all taxpayers are NOT alike.

The taxpayers that pay very little in taxes are NOT SUBSIDIZING the college educations of anyone, they don’t care about this issue since they aren’t paying. This is the group where the VAST MAJORITY of illegal immigrants and ‘taxpayers’ that don’t care can be found.

The taxpayers that pay a significant amount of taxes ARE SUBSIDIZING the college educations of everyone, so this population cares about this issue.

Many of us here accept that we help our fellow GA or US citizens, but that does not carry over to the citizens of Mexico or the rest of the world, especially those that break our immigration laws!

If someone like jbmlaw wants to pay extra taxes for the education of an illegal immigrant that is their choice! Good for him if it makes him shine in the glory of God.

However, he and/or the state government should not be making that CHOICE for other GA citizens. If we were the only state to offer in-state tuition for non-citizens, then many non-citizens would move here to take advantage of our generosity. Now the GA citizens who REALLY PAY TAXES bear an even heavier burden to educate citizens of other nations. Is this really our job or responsibility?

By JC

May 10, 2007 5:35 PM | Link to this

Whatsoever you do to the least of my brethren that you do unto me.

By ARTC

May 10, 2007 5:49 PM | Link to this

Ms Writer, YOU are sickening! I would never have thought before bigot politicians started pandering to the darkest elements in our society that this nation and this state could be so bigoted, racist, and black hearted. It is absolutely disgusting.

By Rick in Lawrenceville

May 10, 2007 5:49 PM | Link to this

Aquagirl: No, I don’t think I will get my answer from deegee. I was looking for a US immigration law or regulation that did not treat all nations fairly, or rather equally. Surely, she can not name another country that does more for so many legal immigrants.

She feels that Mexicans/Latinos are so discriminated against in the immigration arena. Yet this is the very largest population of illegal immigrants that is taking advantage of the American taxpayer.

She will not make any large personal sacrifices for illegals, but she expects American citizens to provide for illegal immigrants at the cost of fewer services to our own citizens.

She should surely recognize that we have our own poor, hungry, uneducated and jobless citizens. Never once have I heard her express any compassion for the plight of our poor.

Heaven be if China and Mexico swapped land…she would be incensed that more Chinese were crossing the border than Mexicans. She has absolutely no sense of fairness if it doesn’t work to the advantage of latinos.

By ARTC

May 10, 2007 5:55 PM | Link to this

You racist rednecks wouldn’t have a problem in the world with this whole issue if every illegal had lily white skin. It’s all about race with you morons.

By ARTC

May 10, 2007 6:02 PM | Link to this

By JohnD

May 10, 2007 2:19 PMThe problems created by the illegals we have now are too numerous to list in this space. Public schools, gas prices and consumption, failure to obey the laws (immigration, traffic, etc.), social/welfare system over load, and on and on. There is no motivation for the illegals to obey our laws when the local governments are unable to deport them.

How about listing just this one jackass! According to GAO immigrants of all classifications generate a net gain of $90,000,000,000 a year to this econony. NINETY BILLION DOLLARS! So take that bogus “strain on the economy” argument and sell it to all the other redneck bigots that just don’t like anything darker than snow white.

By Rick in Lawrenceville

May 10, 2007 6:12 PM | Link to this

ARTC: Ms. Writer is angry, rightfully so, that our immigration laws are not being enforced! This may come at a tremendous cost to her. As her taxes are raised, she may lose her home or be forced to work a second job.

However, if you feel that you can SAVE THE WORLD, please feel free to house illegal immigrants in your home and provide them with a free education and medical care. That should not a responsibility to be forced on Ms. Writer.

Please let us know how you personally sacrifice for illegal immigrants. If you do donate large sums of money to help defray the cost these illegals cause American taxpayers, you have my gratitude.

By JD

May 11, 2007 8:17 AM | Link to this

ARTC,

People without facts resort to the pejorative for an argument. I have not read all the posts on this issue but I do not see anything racist, bigoted or black hearted.

An internet search of the General Accountability Office did not produce a report indicating the $90 Billion number you cited, do you have a link?

The search did produce a number of reports indicating just the opposite from many sources.

The simple fact is the illegals first act in this country was just that - illegal, and they continue to ignore our laws and should be held accountable for their actions. The legal citizens should not be burdened with their care and feeding, each and every one (you included if appropriate) should be deported!

We have enough law enforcement at the local, state and federal levels to achieve deportation of the criminals and a vast majority, except national politicians, wants them out of the US.

By Rick in Lawrenceville

May 11, 2007 8:49 AM | Link to this

ARTC: 90 billion earned by 15 million illegal immigrants works out to $6,000/year. Does it seem like they are reporting all their income to the IRS?

Lets say 5 million are children attending our public schools at $8,000/year (I placed them in Gwinnett county and threw in some meals). That would amount to 40 billion in public school benefits alone.

Should we add in the medical costs for say 1 million born in American hospitals with the tab picked up by taxpayers.

How about the cash sent to their countries of origin that is no longer spent within our economy?

How about the cost to the judicial and correctional systems?

Hey, no need to go any further…we are way past your 90 billion figure. I don’t even have to verify that number, you can double or triple it.

They do however bring up the bottom line of businessmen who employ them and push those costs on the American taxpayer. Those employers should be going to jail.

By letsbesensible

May 11, 2007 9:15 AM | Link to this

I believe that illegal immigrants should pay the same unsubsidized tuition that a legal foreign student pays. The state should not encourage illegal behaviors. However, illegal immigrant students should be given the opportunity to apply for a student visa (thus legitimize their status). After they graduate, they’ll be given the opportunity to find an employer willing to sponsor them for citizenship and be subject to deportation if they fail to adhere to immigration law, just like a typical foreign student in this country.

By Michael H. Smith

May 11, 2007 5:46 PM | Link to this

We are in disagreement Mr. Wooten in regards to U.S. citizenship and our responsibility as U.S. citizens to educate and illegal populace.

Nothing can ever make the illegal immigrant who chooses the pathway of illegality to steal citizenship, the same in any manner as the honorable legal immigrant who chose the legal pathway to actually earn citizenship every step of the way by obeying all the rules.

Consider now this parable of the neighbor who said he is a friend:

There was a selfish irresponsible neighbor who had much worth and many, many, many, children. The selfish irresponsible neighbor abhorred the responsibility of caring for his many children and tired greatly of hearing them as they cried: we have no food, we need medicine, our clothing is rags, our schools inadequate and the jobs you give us pay nothing. Finally the selfish irresponsible neighbor’s tiring grew so great he told his children off you, go to the neighbor next where he has plenty and should you children earn any money from task that you do, remember your dear father and send back part of what get to me.

Well, Mr. Wooten does the United States have such a neighbor for a friend living next door?

Now Jim, you and I are conservative, we expect responsibility of ourselves and of are neighbors. If your neighbor sent his house full of children over for you to responsibly nurture and to provide for, what would you do?

Personally Mr. Wooten I would return all of them immediately to that irresponsible next door neighbor and give him the education of a lifetime, that he truly deserves!

Sincerely Yours,

The Right Thinking Conservative

By Cheri

May 14, 2007 11:08 AM | Link to this

“Georgia is one of 10 states that allow illegals who graduate from high school here to attend public colleges by paying in-state tuition.”

I just want to bring to your attention that this is incorrect. The 10 states that offer in-state tuition to undocumented students are Texas, California, Kansas, Washington, New Mexico, Oklahoma, New York, Utah, Illinois, and Nebraska. In Georgia, presidential tuition waivers are available only to non-resident students (this includes U.S. citizens from other states) who demonstrate academic excellence. These waivers make an affordable education in Georgia appealing to academically superior students. They are not blanket grants to students who attend GA high schools.