Thinking Right

By Jim's a Distractor

January 31, 2007 08:59 AM | Link to this

Hi Jim,

So how do you know if a chronically underperforming school is the result of bad management & teaching on the school/school system’s part, or if it is a function of widespread lack of parental involvement & mentoring at home? In economically disadvantaged districts, single family earners with multiple children might be the norm…these parent’s might not be able to support and nurture their children the way that families in East Cobb are able to.

And get this…I grew up in East Cobb. Yet I was still a chronic underperformer in school. It wasn’t the school’s fault or my parent’s though. It was my fault. Yet my parents would still like to blame the school for my grades. If they had moved me to another school, I dobut it would have helped at all.

Like we’re seeing in Iraq, things aren’t always as easy politicians and their pr reps in the media would make them seem.

Oh, btw, you forgot to mention Bill Clinton in that story. Remember, he’s the real problem.

By TW

January 31, 2007 09:01 AM | Link to this

As with everything else Bush has touched, NCLB has destroyed any credibility the right wing has in the area of education. You get what you pay for, and right wing morality conveniently allows one to keep their ‘hard earned money’ in their pocket. True leadership opens up billfolds.

By Randy

January 31, 2007 09:04 AM | Link to this

Kudos to Georgia’s Republicans. Start the ball rolling and it’ll pick up speed downhill. Of course the libruls will think it picks up speed uphill. They need to be educated in the laws of physics.

Philosophy 101. Never give Tedious Kennedy the ball. He’ll screw the shot everytime.

The career academies are long overdue.

By Jim Wooten

January 31, 2007 09:08 AM | Link to this

To Janine: While interviewing Secretary Spellings yesterday, I asked the question you posed about why not test at the beginning of the 7th grade and again at the end to see what value had been added. Her response:

“Here’s the practical answer as to why that was not the case 5 years ago. And that is that we didn’t have annual assessment in much/most of the country. So it is hard to compare the 7th graders this year to the 8th graders next year when you don’t test the 8th grade, but only in the 7th grade, etc. So it’s a practical problem about the capacity of the system at that time. We have given states plenty of time and plenty of money to develop those assessments and required that they be in place by the ‘05-‘06 school year. Twenty-two or 23 states waited until that very last minute, including my temporary home state of the Commonwealth of Virginia, and we’re only now at the place where we can consider a policy like that. And we should… Yes, that’s a more accurate way to do it.” She went on to talk about getting kids up grade level and the need to “pick up the pace” with segments that have fallen behind.

Van posed the question about why “this program is so loathed by the local teaching establishment?” The Secretary’s response:

“I think any time something is new… grown-ups perceive that there are high-stakes accountablity around these measurements. There’s a time necessary to become familiar with using data, using assessments, having that kind of focus not only around kids but around grown-ups. I think that is part of it. I think we’re turning the corner, that people are getting more comfortable with measurement systems. I think in states where they have been doing it longer, like Texas and North Carolina, among others, that educators get to know that ‘I can teach the curriculm standards and the test will take care of itself.’ And I think that will happen over time.”

By Jeff

January 31, 2007 09:16 AM | Link to this

NCLB has one FATAL flaw:

The STUDENTS are not held accountable!!!!

By Brian Curtis

January 31, 2007 09:43 AM | Link to this

Public funds going to private schools…. great idea! Surely the opposition to such a wonderful program must be due to partisan stupidity, and not any legitimate objection.

By Mid-South Philosopher

January 31, 2007 09:45 AM | Link to this

Good morning, Jeff,

Students have never been held accountable. They are not expected to be. They are students! They need instruction, molding, the opportunity to go as far as they can go, and the opportunity to pay the consequences for NOT applying themselves.

In the “dark ages” of the 1940s and 50s, consequences were swift and often painful. We have become more humane in the post-modern world. Today, we have “time out.”

Of course, my teachers belived in the “time out” method. They took “time out” of their busy schedules to apply their respective “boards of education” to my “seat” of learning.

The modern day school environment was largely formulated by the Welcome Back Cotter era of the 1970s.

Learning must always be fun.

Instruction is best accomplished by a series of one liners.

Self-esteem of students must never be diminished.

All students must feel good about themselves all of the time.

And under NO circumstances must students ever encounter adversity (meaningful or otherwise).

The accountability rests upon the teachers, parents, and the community at-large.

Because we have public education and because very few parents pay the full yearly cost in taxes to education even one of their children, the community has a right to have a say in how “your” child is educated. Further, the community has a right to hold “you” accountable for how “your” child behaves in school and uses the resources that the community has provided.

The problem is that the No Child Left Behind Act makes no provision for establishing the machinery for that accountability.

The No Child Left Behind Act would be an excellent piece of legislation if it could be revised to allow students to go as far as they possibly can, instead of insisting that every child achieve an arbitrarily set level of proficiency.

It is nice to be able to dunk a basketball, but I have known some very successful basketball players who could not.

Be it teacher, parent, or legislator, it is “child abuse” to keep a child from achieving her or his potential. Equally, it is “child abuse” to intimidate a child to go beyond his or her level of ability.

Portions of the process implemented under the No Child Left Behind Act are child abuse.

Even reformed drunks, like Teddy Kennedy and Georgie Bush, should understand that.

By Redneck Convert

January 31, 2007 09:53 AM | Link to this

Like I said before, I dropped out in the 5th grade and it never hurt me none. We don’t need No Child Left Behind. We need Spank Every Childs Behind. A few bruised butts and they will start learning just fine. We are too soft on kids. Just look at what happens when we crack down. I bet no one jaywalks in Atlanta no more after the beatdown of the English egghead. And after a few shootings, no one don’t obey DeKalb County cops no more. A good beatdown of a few kids would make every kid in the school learn right fast.

Anyway, I hope my grandson little Sonny Zell George—we just call him Bubba now—gets to go to a school in one of the five districks. We need to be able to fire teachers quick just as soon as a parent complanes. And we don’t need to teach multiplying tables, which is why I didn’t make it.

All this testing don’t mean nothing. Just see how many days they was in school and give them a piece of paper when they are 16 and old enough to work to buy a trailer and a pickup. That’s pretty much what happens anyway.

You can all try to change us rednecks but it won’t work. We don’t hold much with schooling and we got Sonny to make sure we don’t have to do it much. I’m all for his getting rid of trying to teach kids to read in other tongues. Teaching that is commie, pinko, librul stuff. Trying to make our kids all uppity is like putting lipstick on a pig. They will still be rednecks and act like it.

This educaton stuff don’t do no good. Just look at what it done for TFTT and jbmlaw and Wooten. They still think like rednecks. They just use bigger words.

I sure hope that alky Harold don’t get on here and start ragging about buying booze on the Lord’s Day again. I’m sick of it. Well, it’s time for my beer run. Got to keep the good Baptists oiled up.

By Jeff

January 31, 2007 09:57 AM | Link to this

MSP:

Become a teacher in a classroom. Do your ABSOLUTE BEST. Watch your students goof off in class, not pay attention, disrupt others, not do their homework, put random numbers on tests so that they can turn it in and start talking and disrupting those who haven’t finished and ARE trying. Watch your students physically assault each other and you just so you can’t get through your lesson. Watch them waste time spitting and tieing their shoes (among other things). Wtach them come to class without their paper and pencil, even though you spoke to Mama that morning and she flat out said (and had pictures!!) that said kid left the house with his supplies. Watch your students fail the NCLB mandated test. Then look and see who is blamed.

Hint: I did EVERY BIT of what I just described. I finally had enough, so now I’m trying to get a computing job!

By JK

January 31, 2007 09:59 AM | Link to this

Mr. Wooten, did you ask the question posed yesterday, as to why she was appointed to this position when she has no experience teaching? Or do you concur with the same poster’s answer, which was that it’s the common practice of this administration is to appoint GOP faithful fundraiser types to positions for which they have inadequate qualifications and insufficient experience? Just curious.

By Brian

January 31, 2007 10:02 AM | Link to this

Apologies up front for a long post, but I’d like to respond to comments Dennis made from yesterday’s blog on this issue – he struck some nerves.

”Take a good look at who’s screaming the loudest about the quality of education and it’s the people who control corporations.”

That’s a joke, right? You mean to tell me parents aren’t screaming about the poor quality of public education? Parents aren’t looking for alternatives? Parents aren’t doing something about it and electing to send their children to private schools or even home school? What people control the corporations? Who are they? What influence do they have in public schools? As Ted Kennedy screeched the other day what do you Republicans have against working people, may I ask just what you Leftists have against corporations? Who hires people, corporations or the poor and working class? Who works in this nation? Only ditch diggers as if a marketing rep doesn’t work?

”Do we need accountability for adequate funding, absolutely! Would we be willing to give less of a tax break to the high monied individuals and corporations to more adequately fund education, absolutely not.”

I know there’s a joke in there somewhere. Are you saying that there isn’t enough funding for public education because those nasty evil rich people and greedy corporations hoard all their money? What do you Leftists have against rich people anyway? As if the top 10% don’t already pay nearly 70% of the federal income tax tab? You do realize that every year more and more money goes into public education, do you not? You also do realize that each year we get diminishing returns for said money increases, do you not? Here’s a nice trend on outlays taken since 1965. You Leftists think more money will solve the issue of poor education returns?

What about tax breaks for corporations? Are you mindless minions on the Left ready to watch corporations no longer offer continuing education benefits, high-matching 401k plans, and low cost health insurance programs to their employees? Those benefits don’t come free for corporations to offer, and federal tax incentives [that’s tax breaks to you blue-haired & nose-pierced Liberals in Little Five Points] keep them going. What did you folks on the Left think, the corporations just did all that for free or something? Or maybe you mindless myrmidons on the Left just want those costs passed on to we the consumer.

The NCLB study was done in 18 months during the term of Reagan. It had on its creative board some highly talented people and its concept was endorsed by the NEA (the same organization that gets accused by conservatives and the right-wing of being anti-progressive education).

That’s an interesting comment to make since the NEA contributes openly and largely to the Democrat party. Conservatives call the NEA Anti-progressive? What the..? Then again, these are the same Leftists that are teaching our children that intellectual competition amongst each other, grades, and winning trophies during Field Day are all esteem-harming to those who don’t excel. Social promotion is the norm of passing on a child to the next grade level when s/he is not prepared. According to Leftists, it’s more important to have high self-esteem than to know how to factor an equation. Let’s see how that important Liberal self-esteem does to this nation’s people in a generation when China blows our satellites out of orbit. Gee, I’m sorry you can’t use your cellular phone any more Susie and there are no American engineers out there to build us new satellites, but at least you still have your self-esteem. Isn’t government wonderful?

Let us also not forget that our beloved children are being taught & indoctrinated with those wonderful time-cherished thoughts of homosexuality awareness, global AIDS relief as our #1 goal in life, and that our military should be removed and replaced with the United Nations. Who would think up let alone implement such emotional demagoguery? Conservatives? Please. This mindless ideology is being taught in school districts like those that belong to Speaker Pelosi. Math, history, science, civics, and geography are ever more taking a back seat to social education in this nation. Someone mentioned that a grade school girl was once asked where people got their money. Her answer? The government gives it to them. We have high school kids who have never even heard of the Preamble. We have middle school kids who think World War II was started by Americans. We have elementary school kids who can’t even point to our own states when asked, let alone other nations. Our very pride that we once had as children growing up on how great this nation is will ever more be stripped away by the policies of the indoctrination camps run by the Left known as public schools. After all, the only thing we need to learn in life is that the government is here to take care of us. No amount of money can change that mindless mindset.

By Dusty

January 31, 2007 10:06 AM | Link to this

Mid South Philosopher,

Would you tell us what part of The Child Left Behind Program is “child abuse”?

In true liberal form, you insist on calling President Bush, “Georgie” and reformed drunk. Would you mind telling us what you “overcame” so we can call you Liberal Compulsive Pencil Sharpner or Black Robe Lint Picker when we address you?

Oh, you never had anything to “overcome”? Figures. The perfect performer who can point fingers at the President who has overcome enough to be elected twice. What’s your record?

By Dennis

January 31, 2007 10:09 AM | Link to this

Ah!, here we go again! We’re gonna fix education!

Has anyone ever known a politician who wasn’t?

That is a small, but significant, recurring part of the problem, i.e, the last politician’s solution didn’t work, let’s try mine! And then we hurry on to another “solution” that isn’t going to work either.

But let’s go ahead and get the money issue out of the way - you’ve got to pay for what you want, and education in this country and in this state have never been funded enough to do that.

How much is it worth to have an educated person? How much does it cost to have an uneducated person?

Paying for education is an investment by society/government in people. But if the society/government investment is in people, then the corporations will really end up on a make it or break it “what the market will bear”, “capitalist” economy really ought to be (and claims to be) and that’s not going to happen.

Give your “tax breaks” to education for twenty or thirty years and let your corporations tighten their belts like education is always expected to do. But that’s not going to happen either.

(How many politicians would be re-elected if they dared to do that - NONE).

Having said that, then what are the minimum skills “necessary” to be a “self-sustaining”, contributor to society?

What do we need to provide for the “special-ed”; the emotionally disturbed, the physically handicapped? What end results do we want or expect from these?

What do we need to provide for the “gifted”? What end results do we want or expect from these?

Do we mix these students all in the same classes, or do we segregate them by abilities?

The problems of education are not going to be fixed by any wide sweep of the brush. And any “fix it” program that doesn’t recognize that beginning in pre-school or kindergarten is the place to start and then add another step to the goal year by year until the completion of school is going to fail.

Any “solutions” to education are not going to show real results for twenty to thirty years down the road when todays students are out in society doing their “thing”. Accept it.

Invest in people and watch the economy grow.

You don’t have to be a blind conservative not to see it, just an ignorant one to deny it

By Mid-South Philosopher

January 31, 2007 10:13 AM | Link to this

Jeff,

What you describe all true. Among the educational elitists the notion is that if the student is not “engaged” it must be the “teacher’s” fault is paramount.

Yet the legislators (state, and now more frequently, national) are going to do nothing to hold parents and community members (those that work teenagers until 1:00 A.M. at part-time jobs on school nights) accountable. It is much easier to focus upon the teacher, who, quite honestly in many cases , may need to have a knot jerked in their tails.

Likely, within 10 years this state is going to be begging for teachers. May be we can recruit some from Mexico.

Our host, Jim Wooten, often cites the power of the teacher unions (which is a joke) in this state. Only twice have teachers exercised the tremendous political power that they have…in the defeat of Roy Barnes in 2002 and the defeat of former State School Superintendent Warner Rogers in the 90s. Both men were arrogant and expressed their arrogance toward the teaching profession. Thankfully, both are now just bad memories.

If teachers would truly organize as a “professional” force, they could rival the “Chamber of Commerce” for political influence in this state.

By silver

January 31, 2007 10:15 AM | Link to this

People who are un educated do not buy newspapers. Newspapers all across America are reporting loses, and are downsizing, including the Wall street Journal. Now comes word that the New York Times Reports 4Q Loss of $648M, according to a story posted today, Jan 31 9:26 AM US/Eastern. Will the AJC also report a loss, and if so, will the newspaper be downsized, and will there be layoffs? It appears that people today are either too lazy to read the newspaper and to form their own ideas, or they just cannot read well enough to justify the time required. Too many people want an executive summary, where the story is converted to simple easy to remember memes like “Arabs are Bad” or “Jews are Good” or “America is Great.” For some of us who can and do read, the “memeization” (my own just created word) of the news is very frustrating. The refusal of newspaper in general to confront accepted memes is even more frustrating, and has driven me to dissident websites like al jazera, g2mil.com, and safehave.com. We need all sides of the story in the paper, not just the side the powers-what-be wants the public to “meme-erize.” I have reduced my newspaper subscriptions to just one, the ajc, only because I live in the Atlanta metro area. The ajc is slightly better than the average big city newspaper, but it is still controlled by the powers-what-be, and only publishes the standard memes, with just a little controversy. Of course it buries the controversy deep on line, or in the back pages. And the controversial topics disappear all too quickly, both online, and in print.

By Mid-South Philosopher

January 31, 2007 10:21 AM | Link to this

Dusty,

To expect a special education student with abilities different from those of a “normal” (whatever that is) student to perform at the same level on a writing test is child abuse to cite but one example.

By their own admission Bush and Kennedy are “reformed” drunks. Bush, via religion, and Kennedy via whatever. Although I voted for one, twice, I have no use for either.

In the notion that I am a liberal, you are quite mistaken. Equally, foolish would be the notion that I embrace the idiocy of the neo-cons.

By jbmlaw

January 31, 2007 10:24 AM | Link to this

Good morning all. I am willing to credit good intentions to President Bush and Senator Kennedy and Representative Miller and Secretary Spellings, and there is also no question in my mind that those good intentions paved GB Shaw’s road. Why, exactly, did the Republicans not euthanize this agency in 2005?

By Dennis

January 31, 2007 10:27 AM | Link to this

For Mid-South Philosopher.

There is a third time that Georgia teachers stood up and MARCHED to the capital in protest; that was the year that Jimmy Carter proposed to give “one half of one percent” pay raise to teachers.

The GAE leadership at that time, which was controlled by administrators, told the public that teachers were happy, until seven thousand teachers showed up in Atlanta for the protest.

Needless to say, the classroom teachers voted the administrators out and put in their own choices. Then PAGE was formed by a group of administrators and disgruntled teachers who were “professional”.

You don’t have to be a blind conservative not to see it, just an ignorant one to deny it.

By Dennis

January 31, 2007 10:37 AM | Link to this

By Mid-South Philosopher January 31, 2007 10:13 AM said to Jeff, “If teachers would truly organize as a “professional” force, they could rival the “Chamber of Commerce” for political influence in this state.”

Precisely!

I’m sure our Chambers of Commerce and our professional politicians, our corporate heads and Jim Wooten are happy that teachers don’t recognize that fact. These folks don’t want to put their money where their mouth is, they just want to grumble.

You don’t have to be a blind conservative not to see it, just an ignorant one to deny it.

By Mid-South Philosopher

January 31, 2007 10:40 AM | Link to this

Dennis,

I bow to your knowledge of state history. The administration of Governor Carter was before I became a Georgian.

By Curious Observer

January 31, 2007 10:42 AM | Link to this

It always amuses me that people talk about education in the abstract, with no indication of what it means. Reading Wooten’s column would lead me to believe that education is the inculcation of the ability to think uncritically in a right-wing fashion. In any case, I’ve seen no comment that leads me to think that people see education as a tool to help people analyze facts and situations and make informed decisions about them.

The South will always reside at the bottom of any rankings of educational systems. It places no true value on education. The majority of its residents view education as a mere stepping stone to a job and money, not as an intrinsically valuable preparation to lead an engaged life. And when rednecks beget—surprise!—other rednecks, the region expresses great disappointment that “they”—teachers, school systems, administrators, local politicians—have failed to turn out brilliant scientists and thinkers.

This anti-intellectual trend will continue, but in evolving forms. Today it’s testing and holding teachers and schools “accountable,” as though they are factory workers and corporations. But little Johnny will continue to grow up ignorant and prejudiced. Tomorrow it will be funding private schools, but little Johnny will continue to grow up ignorant and prejudiced and driving his pickup truck and living in his own trailer.

The only way little Johnny is going to acquire an education is to move out of the South and get exposed to a variety of ideas and philosophies. He won’t get that exposure when he returns every day to his one-book home and listens to his parents spout their hatred and reveal their anti-intellectual attitudes.

By Dennis

January 31, 2007 10:42 AM | Link to this

By jbmlaw

January 31, 2007 10:24 AM wrote, “Why, exactly, did the Republicans not euthanize this agency in 2005?”

Let me guess, they are all products of public education?

You don’t have to be a blind conservative not to see it, just an ignorant one to deny it.

By Dusty

January 31, 2007 10:43 AM | Link to this

MidSouth Philosopher,

You could have fooled me. You declare that you “sit on the fence” and lean neither way. That is a little hard to believe when I can’t remember reading anything you ever wrote that was showing approval of “neocons” as you like to put it.

If special education children are asked to perform at the same level as “non special chldren”, then that is a problem of testing, not abuse of the child.

Are you a teaching “professional”? Are all children in all states to follow the same guidelines?

There are good and bad students just like there are good and bad teachers as we all know. I am afraid that I still believe that the student achievers have the involved parents to help them. The government is only the backup. (I have five children, some still obtaining “higher” education.)

By Jim's a Distractor

January 31, 2007 10:46 AM | Link to this

Jeff,

That’s pretty much it.

Good kids will do well in whatever environment you put them in.

Average kids will morph to the environment and could probably benefit from a “good” school vs a “bad” school.

Bad kids will do their best to screw it up for everyone.

Unfortunately among kids, the impact of the bad ones is much more profound than than the impact of the good ones, so the average ones are going to slide every time.

Who’s to blame?

Personally I blame Britney Spears, gangsta rappers and myspace.

By Mid-South Philosopher

January 31, 2007 10:54 AM | Link to this

Dusty wrote at 10:43 A.M.: If special education children are asked to perform at the same level as “non special chldren”, then that is a problem of testing, not abuse of the child.

Try explaining that to the special education child who is NOT stupid and knows that she does not have the ability to perform on the writing test to the level that has been determined to be proficient.

If there is NOT an alternate form of assessment, subjecting this child to this experience is emotional child abuse.

By Van

January 31, 2007 10:55 AM | Link to this

Jim Wooten,

Regarding Secretary Spellings response to my query.

Her answer is typical of mid level management. I work for a large blue IT company. When changes are rolled out, and they happen often, higher management works to insure that the roll out is accepted at the lower levels and not rammed down peoples throats.

People tend to resists change when neither rhyme nor reason is given for a change.

As anyone in large companies know, there are changes that seem to be implemented well and not so well.

The answer that the Secretary gave was the answer to a project that was implemented at full steam without regard for the workers, the teachers in this case.

By Mid-South Philosopher

January 31, 2007 11:01 AM | Link to this

I will make one last comment, and then I am through “swapping spit” today.

The conversation about reforming education and improving schools has been going on at least since the early 1900s.

Lo, I prophesy…Bloggers (or whatever title folks like us are called by in 100 years) will be debating this issue when my 5 year old granddaughter is an old, old woman.

By silver

January 31, 2007 11:02 AM | Link to this

If we can just get children to read for pleasure, they will educate themselves. It does not matter what they read, just so they read. Boys like sports, adventure, and danger. Girls like some of the above, but most move to romance novels in their teens. It doesn’t matter, just so they are developing reading skills that can be used to study more academic subjects like history, geography, economics and the sciences. Banning books, any books, is wrong because the banned book may be the one that gets the kid on the fence to start reading. Harry Potter is a good example, some people want to ban Harry for jesus-freaking reasons. Silver would like to ban the jesus-freaks. So restraint on both sides is good, as both Harry and Jesus get to live another day.

By Brian

January 31, 2007 11:08 AM | Link to this

I sure am glad Curious Observer is here to help straighten things out for the dumb southerns. If Johnny goes to a private school, he’ll be a racist and drive a pickup truck. If spelling bees and geography contests are banned because someone might actually lose and hurt his/her self esteem, it’s the parent’s fault. If teachers waste valuable school time on having a guest speaker talk about putting condoms on bananas and global AIDS relief, then they are not accountable for lessening education..it’s the fault of the parents. Ok, I understand now.

By Dennis

January 31, 2007 11:10 AM | Link to this

I’d suggest that the insights and good suggestions on here today are a lot more helpful and informative than the interview Jim Wooten had yesterday with Margaret Spellings.

It’s the ones who control the purse strings and their stooges that are screwing up education.

You don’t have to be a blind conservative not to see it, just an ignorant one to deny it

By Dusty

January 31, 2007 11:26 AM | Link to this

Curious Observer,

I hope you don’t have any children or teach because you are decidedly prejudiced and ignorant.

Some of the finest universities in the country are scattered across the South from Virginia to Texas. Some are almost as old as the “ivy league” group.

As these “ivy” icons become more and more liberal in academe, their prestige becomes more a sign of social status than top of the line education.

But keep on with your outdated tunnel vision. We would be very surprised to find you with anything else.

By jm

January 31, 2007 12:12 PM | Link to this

While I am all for improving education, I am a little leery of heavy private sector (excluding parochial schools and their like) involvement. The reason being, I see conflicting motives. Both public and private sectors (should) have the primary goal of educating the children but the private sector has that secondary goal of turning a profit. That goal of turning a profit makes me wonder if this is just another attempt to dip into the public trough.

By holdingAJCaccountable

January 31, 2007 12:14 PM | Link to this

Let me give an analogy to anyone with no teaching experience:

You bring your school age daughter to “bring your daughter to work day”. She sees the copying machine and inquires. You tell her specifically do not touch the copying machine.

You give her a task, say filing some papers, to get a taste of the work world. But she makes a conscious decision to defy your authority and go to the copying machine, and it gets jammed.

You don’t go off the deep end. You simply put her in time out for a few minutes. (Everything seems reasonable so far right?)

Now imagine your boss comes over removes her from time out and says to you, in front of your co-workers “It’s not her fault, it’s your fault for not having her “engaged in meaningful activities”.

Go back and read that last paragraph again, and then see how you feel. Because that, in a nutshell, is the way it is sytemically in teaching today(of course every administrator isn’t like that…but that is the systemic mindset)

Now ask youself why Margaret Spellings isn’t making discipline the number one priority? (In fact, if you look at the photo op she took in Atlanta, two kids were staring off into space. Had she been a real teacher she would have been written up for children off task)

After you ask yourself why Spellings isn’t making discipline a priority, ask Mr. Wooten why has colleagues on the editorial board have never, ever written a single editorial advocating for teaching having more administrative support for discipline.

Howh many more teachers have to be physically assaulted with no consequences to the student, before we grow a backbone?

By Van

January 31, 2007 12:53 PM | Link to this

jm,

It is simple, to turn a profit and provide jobs, they must produce a quality product.

They do better because they teach the students better. They turn out a better student.

If the opposite was true, then they would not stay in business for more than a few years.

What motivation does the public schools have to produce a better graduate?

By silver

January 31, 2007 12:55 PM | Link to this

I don’t know what you are talking about holdingAJCaccountable, physically assulting anybody, including teachers is already against the law. So what are you advocating with your “grow a backbone?” demand? If a teacher is assulted in the classroom, just dial 911, and let the law handle the situation. School administration has no power with respect the police or the courts, and if administration tries to interfer with you complaint to the police of physical assult, they are guilty of obstructing justice, a criminal offense. As for a child being off task, the human mind is a very flexible tool, and total focus on the task or teacher is not conducive to learning. The students have to have the freedom to think, not just to parrot back the party line.

By silver

January 31, 2007 01:12 PM | Link to this

It is about time we held the CIA thugs accountable. Now the German’s are doing it for us:

From the International Herald Tribune:

BERLIN: Prosecutors in Munich on Wednesday obtained warrants for 13 CIA agents allegedly involved in the kidnapping of a German citizen, Khaled el-Masri.

Christian Schmidt-Sommerfeld, the Munich prosecutor, said the warrants had been issued by a local court this week, but it is unclear if the German authorities will be able to have the U.S. agents extradited to Germany.

The warrants could prove embarrassing and even politically damaging for Germany’s Foreign Minister, Frank-Walter Steinmeier.

Steinmeier was chief of staff for the former chancellor, Gerhard Schröder, whose coalition government of Social Democrats and Greens had been in power at that time and had taken a tough stance against the U.S. war on terror. After repeatedly denying any knowledge of the Masri case, Steinmeier last year admitted that he had been informed about the case.

Steinmeier is also under pressure to reveal exactly what his role was in allegedly preventing the release and return to Germany of Murat Kurnaz, a German-born Turkish citizen who had been arrested in Afghanistan in 2001, sent to Afghanistan — where he said he had been abused by German security agents — and then transferred to Guantánamo Bay.

Today in Europe British police arrest terrorism suspects German court issues arrest warrants for 13 CIA agents Paris fights the ‘banalization’ of the Champs-Elysées According to Kurnaz’s lawyer, the United States had offered to release Kurnat if the German authorities provided strict security measures, including round-the-clock surveillance. The German government refused to accept those terms, and he was finally returned to Germany in August 2006 after Chancellor Angela Merkel demanded his release.

The CIA agents are accused of kidnapping and inflicting bodily harm on Masri, who was abducted in the former Yugoslav republic of Macedonia in December 2003.

He said that he was drugged, beaten and then flown by the CIA to a detention center in Afghanistan. Masri said he was held there for five months before the U.S. government flew him to Albania and left him there.

Masri, a Muslim of Lebanese origin who lives in southern Germany, is suing the U.S. authorities for damages.

According to a report by the Spanish authorities, Masri was kidnapped by the group of 13 CIA agents who were traveling aboard a Boeing 737. The plane left Mallorca on Jan. 23, 2004, picked up Masri in Macedonia and continued on to Afghanistan.

By jm

January 31, 2007 01:23 PM | Link to this

Van,

private schools (and magnet schools) generally do better because they are allowed to pick who they educate. When you start out with better raw materials, it is a lot easier to produce a better finished product.

By holdingAJCaccountable

January 31, 2007 01:23 PM | Link to this

Thirty some odd posts, yet maybe only two or three allude to the lack of sytemic support for teachers in regard to discipline. Did all the bloggers take the short bus to the web this morning?

Until you’ve seen a teacher punched in the face, then get lectured for her lack of classroom management skills, you just don’t know.

Until you have talked with a teacher who gave detention, and the student’s brother came to take him out of detention with a handgun and the administrative response was “We can’t afford to have an ‘incident’ right now”, you just don’t know

Until you have seen a student make a hole in the wall by throwing a desk at it, and then let the child eat lunch (not school lunch, McDonalds) and run errands in the office so that the student will “calm down” and then seen the teacher required to fill out a detailed behavior modification plan, “before you leave work today” you just don’t know.

If you are of higher social economic status and coming to this board, you just don’t know what teachers working with at risk students or at failing schools are dealing with as far as the lack of support for enforcing discipline.

If you DID know, you would be posting on Thinking Right and asking Mr. Wooten, why has this editorial board never, ever, ONCE written an editorial with the words “We must do a better job when it comes to giving teachers support on matter of discipline. Teachers must be able to set rules and have consequences and students must not have the option of defying those consequences, without sure, swift and meaningful backup of the teacher.

The editorial board can talk about teacher training, teacher tenure, teacher gift cards, but they can’t even one time talk about teacher support? And you, the readers of this blog, are letting them get away with it!

By holdingAJCaccountable

January 31, 2007 01:30 PM | Link to this

Silver, Let me educate you. Teachers are not allowed to call 911 or risk being fired for insubordination. Even if they risk it, police do not come to a school unless an administrator request it. If the administrator request it, the administrator is called on the carpet by supervisors, because now, the number and type of incidents are reported in the paper.

Are you starting to get an understanding?

By holdingAJCaccountable

January 31, 2007 01:42 PM | Link to this

Correction: The police do not come unless an administrator requests it..

By Captain Freedom

January 31, 2007 01:47 PM | Link to this

Jim,

As our friend Sister Dusty does so often, today’s column offers yet another example of why people born without a peni$ should not be allowed to speak publicly on matters of importance.

Secretary (a term I thought the feminattzis and liberals ruined years ago, along with the word ‘gay’) of Education Margaret Spellings betrays her complete and utter incompetence for anything other than cooking, cleaning and breeding by having kind words for that fat drunken murderer from Hyannisport.

I guess this explains the dreadful cokck-up she made of something as simple as banning that lesbian loving bunny rabbit from PBS. This not-a-man person is unfit for any role outside the home.

By getoveryourself

January 31, 2007 01:56 PM | Link to this

Hell yeah!!!!

Let’s totally cripple an institution and then berate it for being weak!

Yeah Casey!!! Put it in a bodybag!!

By Brian

January 31, 2007 02:13 PM | Link to this

Excuse me getoveryourself, but this is crippling an institution? Hell if a 2,200% increase in federal spending on education since 1965 is crippling it, I’d sure hate to see your idea of what a sizeable increase should be. Sheesh.

By Dusty

January 31, 2007 02:18 PM | Link to this

Captain Freedom,

I don’t know with what you were born ” with or without” and my guess is that you were born “without” in the upper story. It is not an interesting subject.

Be that as it may, if feminine opinions offend you in your great subterfuge as a captain, then press the little button on that thing called a “mouse”. It will carry away all your little abnormalities of mind and leave you with another screen which may be more appealing to your deprived sensibilities.

By Janine

January 31, 2007 02:24 PM | Link to this

THanks for getting an answer to my question, Mr. W. I am not sure that it is a valid excuse, though. At least she acknowledged it as a better method. As for the Van’s question….her answer about it being new and *people not liking anything new because it is unfamiliar * has become the standard response of educrats when someone challenges a new program.

By Janine

January 31, 2007 02:25 PM | Link to this

Oh,…and we all know that no one is “turning the corner” on NCLB.

By Richard

January 31, 2007 02:27 PM | Link to this

Obviously, if something helps the common person or poor person, Jim’s against it. Jim believes along with Hitler’s doctrine - eliminate all those that are different that you.

By Janine

January 31, 2007 02:33 PM | Link to this

The proposal for Career Academies is actually the most sensible thing to come out of the Gold Dome in years and years. And Cagle’s SB39 would be fabulous,..IF..and it’s a big IF…the local district boards and administrations are frugal and competent and don’t jump on every *Cure du JOur * bandwagon that rolls by.

By Brian

January 31, 2007 02:51 PM | Link to this

Jim believes along with Hitler’s doctrine - eliminate all those that are different that you.

So everything that is not pro-Liberal must be of Nazi origin and mentality. What a stunningly brilliant point to make, especially for a Liberal.

By Dennis

January 31, 2007 02:58 PM | Link to this

By Janine January 31, 2007 02:33 PM “The proposal for Career Academies is actually the most sensible thing to come out of the Gold Dome in years and years.”

Perhaps sensible only for those who are luck to get into one. The rest are stuck where they are now and for the same stuck reasons.

This is not going to improve public education.

This will only create elitist groups. And the creators (who are themselves the “upper crust”) know it. This is for their benefit and the benefit only of their children.

You don’t have to be a blind conservative not to see it, just an ignorant one to deny it.

By silver

January 31, 2007 03:07 PM | Link to this

I have never heard of the police not responding to a 911 call of a physical assult at a public school, or any other school for that matter. You have a legal obligation to report a violent crime, the police have a legal obligation to investigate, and anyone who interfers is subject to criminal penalties. Check out the stories about the South Carolina school principal who ordered the students not to talk to the police about the cheer leading coach giving alcohol to the cheer leaders. The principal went to jail. Wouldn’t you enjoy seeing your principal cuffed and taken to jail for ordering you and your students not to talk to the police about a crime? The school cannot fire you for reporting a crime, for being a witness, or for talking to police, else the school system can be charged with witness tampering. Or course if teachers don’t have the backbone to stand up to administration, well that is another problem.

By jbmlaw

January 31, 2007 03:09 PM | Link to this

Dear Brian @ 2:51, I’ll bet you a Coke that if you followed the money trail, you would find that Richard has some financial interest in keeping alive the raid on taxpayer monies. His post reads like someone riding the gravy train.

By silver

January 31, 2007 03:13 PM | Link to this

P.S. An order from the principal not to report a crime is both witness tampering and obstruction of justice. Try to get the policy in writting, under the principal signature, and take it to the prosecuting attorney, who can help you set up a sting for the next time there is violence in your classroom. Picture the principal doing the perp walk, handcuffed behind the back. Repeat as often as necessary to give you the courage to follow through. Once this happens, the administration and school board will live in fear of you, and will not dare retaliate, lest they to do the perp walk.

By holdingAJCaccountable

January 31, 2007 03:24 PM | Link to this

I thought conservatives read this blog. Apparently not. How can people who talk about “the rule of law” and “personal responsibility” come to a topic dealing with “The Politics of Education” and not even mention that students are allowed to ignore the rule of law and avoid personal responsibility because the systemic support for teachers in terms of consequences has all but disappeared?

I expect liberals to be bed-wetters when it comes to making excuses for children’s behavior. Obviously the conservatives on this blog are in the bed next to them on the right (pun intended) and urinating right (pun not intended) along with them. (And I guess that’s why both groups feel warm and cuddly about not dealing with what’s truly wrong with education)

Isn’t this just grand? A blog that allegedly wants to discuss the “politics of education” instead turns out to be a big p-ssing contest to see which group can be most spineless, gutless, and clueless when it comes to the simple fact that good teaching conditions lead to good learning conditons and good learning and none of that takes place without discipline.

After reading today’s blog I have to wonder why any conservative would oppose stem cell research, because from what I read the overwhelming majority of you need help in growing a backbone on the school discipline issue.

By silver

January 31, 2007 03:37 PM | Link to this

Excuse me holdingAJCaccountable, but your name is not Susan Renee Hensley by any chance is it? Are you posting from the prison library? If not, then read the story below about this child molestor who worked in Cobb County Georgia at Walton High School. MARIETTA, GA - A former high school championship volleyball coach has been sentenced to eight years in prison for having sex with a student.

Susan Renee Hensley, 35, pleaded guilty this week to child molestation charges.

Hensley was named coach of the year after leading Walton High School to its fifth state championship in 2002. She was arrested in August 2003 after a 16-year-old female student at Walton accused Hensley of having a sexual relationship with her since she was a student at Dickerson Middle School, where Hensley coached before going to Walton.

Cobb County schools spokesman Jay Dillon said Hensley also coached basketball and taught health and physical education at Walton. Police said the girl who made the accusations took classes taught by Hensley at both Dickerson and Walton.

By Janine

January 31, 2007 03:47 PM | Link to this

YOu know HoldingAJCaccountable…I’m sure that we all [or at least all who have ever set foot in a classroom *] would acknowledge that you are totally correct when you say that the huge problem , the proverbial elephant in the room, that we often don’t discuss on this blog is that, as you say, “students are allowed to ignore the rule of law and avoid personal responsibility because the systemic support for teachers in terms of consequences has all but disappeared.”* [ANd it is discussed quite often over on the Get Schooled Blog].HOwever, in today’s Politically Correct, self esteem stuffed atmosphere ,populated with incompetent administrators afraid for their jobs,who blame the teacher’s classroom management for each and every disruption in the classroom….rife with overpaid consultants whose jobs depend on every new Cure du Jour that rolls around the corner, it just seems such an uphill battle. But you are right to keep it out front. Maybe someday the AJC or one of the investigative reporters at a TV station will pick up on it and actually expose the ugly truth.

By Salena

January 31, 2007 04:05 PM | Link to this

Some solutions to Georgia’s public education problems:

By silver

January 31, 2007 04:18 PM | Link to this

Salena, a gawd damned mexican who does not pay taxes wants to raise my taxes to better educate the illegal brats of mexico? Hell no, DEATH CAMPS FOR ILLEGALS FIRST, NO MORE TAXES TO SUPPORT MEXICANS.

By Selena

January 31, 2007 04:36 PM | Link to this

Dittohead silver,

You’re mistaken. Many, if not most, illegal immigrants do pay taxes. Most do not collect cash from their employers. Using fake SS cards, they get hired by employers and have income and payroll taxes withheld from their paychecks — just like you and I. Medicare and SS beneficiaries are benefiting from billions collected from illegal immigrants that the immigrants themselves will never benefit from. Since they don’t have real SS numbers, many of these illegal workers will never file for the refunds that they would otherwise be eligible for.

These comments are not intended to defend illegal immigration, but get your facts straight. Your messiah, Rush Limbaugh, has misinformed you.

One more thing – providing anything less than the best education possible for your own kids (or your family’s kids or your neighbor’s kids), specifically so that the children of illegal immigrants can’t benefit is twisted.

By Selena

January 31, 2007 04:39 PM | Link to this

silver,

Were you being sarcastic at 4:18? If so, a thousand pardons.

By Van

January 31, 2007 04:45 PM | Link to this

Selena,

Just a comment on a couple of your items

“Spend the money necessary to hire more teachers to get smaller classes.” __ Smaller Classrooms do not mean better learning- In grade school, a class of 40 was the norm and the NUNS ruled with an iron fist, today the teachers are hamstrung with fear of law suits

“To get better teachers, spend the money necessary to raise teacher pay to be competitive with any state in the country.” Another liberal idea that does not make better teachers. With the teachers unions, all teachers would be on pay parity, the good and the bad.

“Make sure classroom facilities are always safe and always comfortable.” More feel good fluff that will not ensure a good education. I did my best learning in boot camp - neither safe or comfortable

By holdingAJCaccountable

January 31, 2007 05:01 PM | Link to this

Silver, No I’m not “Susan”…who sounds like she was held accountable for her crimes. And? The issue with discipline isn’t crimes teachers commit, it’s the crimes committed against teachers. They don’t get prosecuted (talking systemically here, not disparaging any individuals)

Technically you are right about what the law says a teacher can do…but obviously (not being critical, just telling you how it is) you don’t know the reality of what happens by and large (not every time of course) when teachers get assaulted, and/or threatened.

Janine, thanks for the confirmation. If the bloggers out here aren’t willing to address discipline, they get what they deserve. I must admit I’m disappointed in Mr. Wooten though; he gets it and in Jim Wooten’s schools chronic disrupters would be gone. I’m disappointed he won’t come on here and explain why his fellow editors don’t get it and won’t talk about it. Come on, Jim I’m sure there is a way to address this without completely throwing them under the bus…if they are wrong, then they are wrong. If you aren’t willing to hold them accountable because it may be a little “uncomfortable” around the office then how can you call on others to be accountable?

By Selena

January 31, 2007 05:01 PM | Link to this

Van,

Do a little research. Study upon study has shown that smaller class sizes DO mean better learning — for obvious reasons.

Clearly, you’re politics are on the right side of the political spectrum, yet you have the gall to say that paying teachers better will not improve the quality of teachers who apply for the jobs? I think you know better than that. (Your union argument assumes that teacher unions have power in this State - as others have stated, they do not.)

Safe and comfortable facilities (compared to overcrowded facilities where students are unattended, pipes and roofs leak and HVAC systems don’t work) are feel good fluff? Did you learn Calculus and Chemistry in boot camp?

Your bias is showing. Clearly, you’re bank account is more of a concern to you than educating Georgia’s children. So be it. But, just admit it instead of feeding us this “I did my best learning in boot camp” bull$hit.

By holdingAJCaccountable

January 31, 2007 05:14 PM | Link to this

Van,

If you “did your best learning in boot camp” then why aren’t you acknowledging that teachers must have the right to instill the discipline needed in order to learn? “Lower class size” is needed when you allow children to defy, threaten, curse and yes, even assault teachers.

Want to get rid of “smaller class sizes”? Good, find me a conservative with the backbone to say “We WILL leave a child behind if he refuses to obey the adult authority figure in the room.” Why can’t conservatives support that? I’ve never heard Bush, Spellings or Rod (I became Sec. of Ed. by ignoring “rule of law” and letting 18 schools in the Houston school system get away with it) Paige address something that should be so fundamental ot a conservative.

I’m not taking up for the liberal policies…I’m asking why those who bash them won’t follow conservative policies when it comes to discipline?

By holdingAJCaccountable

January 31, 2007 05:19 PM | Link to this

To clarify: Rod Paige and let 18 schools get away with it: The “it” was cheating, and as soon as it came out, goodbye Rod Paige and hello Margaret Spellings.

So much for the “Houston Miracle”. One the story broke and the heat was on every school but one had a drop in test scores the next year.

Rule of law indeed….

By Janine

January 31, 2007 05:24 PM | Link to this

Selena..I’m all for raising teachers’ salaries. However,just for the record, the teachers in those private schools that churn out students with astronomical SAT scores are paid a good bit less and have fewer benefits than teachers in public schools. Of course, lots of great teachers are willing to take less money and fringes for the well disciplined students who know if they disrupt, they will be out on their ear!

By Tara

January 31, 2007 05:31 PM | Link to this

I also noticed that Van aimed directly at the bullet points in Selena’s post that cost money. Georgia’s public education system will never improve because there are too many Vans in Georgia who want to educate our children on the cheap — not because they sincerely think we can, but because they’re determined not to let anything, including educating Georgia’s children (i.e. other people’s children), get in the way of their drive for material gain.

By Selena

January 31, 2007 05:33 PM | Link to this

Janine,

Point taken.

By Joseph A. Palermo

January 31, 2007 05:45 PM | Link to this

I want to piggyback onto Selena’s comments too. Selena is right. The Vans of Georgia are being penny wise and pound foolish. I just read that Governor Perdue is looking for money in the budget to build a few thousand more prison beds. That’s a few thousand more people that taxpayers will pay to baby-sit, house, feed, secure and provide health care for. That’s a few thousand more people that won’t be working, contributing to society and paying taxes. That’s a few thousand more victims and a few thousand more cases going through the judicial system — meaning more police, more judges, and more lawyers paid for with taxpayer money.

Anybody who doesn’t see a connection between our having one of the worst public education systems in the country and our rapidly growing need for prison cells is in denial.

By Van

January 31, 2007 05:55 PM | Link to this

holdingAJCaccountable,

My point exactly -

The NUNS in my grade school had absolute authority over the class and it was the fear of getting in trouble that kept us on the straight and narrow. Today the little ones do not fear getting in trouble - mommy and daddy will sue if they get in trouble.

BTW Selena, in the catholic school I attended, everyone, smart or not was allowed to attend. We also all wore the same uniform and actually prayed in class.

While I admit, that was over 40 years ago, the discipline and tough standards were the key items, not feel good fluff items.

By Wooten Blog Fan

January 31, 2007 06:01 PM | Link to this

I’m persuaded. We either pay for it on the front end or pay more on the back end. Raise my taxes too. I also want Georgia to have the best education system in the country.