Thinking Right

By TommyT

December 13, 2006 08:39 AM | Link to this

Jim: Taking offense with the religious displays of others is a sure sign of the weakness of the offended’s own belief system.

Not to mention their audacity to complain about the very mention of Christmas at the same time they celebrate the holiday.

By jbmlaw

December 13, 2006 08:52 AM | Link to this

Good morning all. A believer’s case against excessive celebration of Christmas is pretty easy to make: two of the four Gospels don’t even mention the birth of Christ, and the two that tell a story tell stories with no common elements. We have no idea of the actual month or year of the Holy Birth. Christmas trees don’t get much mention in any religious tracts (yes I am perfectly aware of Prince Albert’s role – don’t waste our time with the historic references.) We won’t discuss Santa Claus. Even when our good ministers talk about the “meaning of the season” I have always noticed they were conspicuously vague about what exactly is the meaning of the season. We are an Easter people, and Christmas ultimately is a faux-religious holiday.

Even acknowledging all of those depressing truths – in fact, perhaps because I can acknowledge those depressing truths – the campaign against Christmas, mostly conducted by our American leftist friends, is a true symbol of evil in our time. Christmas is a singular holiday, without any element of meanness or viciousness, not against any soul, believing or not, in any culture, anywhere and everywhere in the world. It is the only time of the year our modern American culture unites to reflect peacefully on the ultimate meanings of life. While our leftist friends condemn the hostility of the times, the lack of common or shared values, and the wingnut unwillingness to work with the leftists’ “well-intentioned” efforts, the fact of their long-term intolerance against simple displays of celebration of Christmas is almost certainly the cause of the conditions they deplore. There once was a spirit of the season, now long extinguished by the ACLU. Happy Kwanza.

By TW

December 13, 2006 09:04 AM | Link to this

The rabbi wanted to be included. The reaction was, is, fragile.

By Dusty

December 13, 2006 09:08 AM | Link to this

Awww, forget it, Jim. MERRY CHRISTMAS!!

You too, TommyT and jbmlaw!! MERRY CHRISTMAS!!

By Rev Haggard

December 13, 2006 09:14 AM | Link to this

Wrong, your so-called “war on christmas” is brought to you by CORPORATE AMERICA.

Nobody has been forced to say “Happy Holidays”. NOT ONCE.

Since when was the “spirit of Christmas” the responibility of corporate America anyway?

Don’t bring up Santa?? Why? can’t blame him on the liberals?

By Chazman

December 13, 2006 09:17 AM | Link to this

I have never understood why people get all bent out of shape if a store has a “Holiday Sale” rather than a “Christmas Sale.” I understand that store is trying to sale merchindise to people of all faiths, not just my own. A Holiday Sale includes all of us. A Christmas Sale does not - if your religion does not celebrate Christmas.

JW states, Now can you imagine a value system so fragile, so ungrounded, that a mere sign would cause it to crumble. I feel the same of those whining about Christmas. Imagine a value system so fragile, so ungrounded, that the mere mention of Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas would cause people to get so bent out of shape that they fear there is a “war on Christmas.”

TommyT started us off this morning with Taking offense with the religious displays of others is a sure sign of the weakness of the offended’s own belief system. I couldn’t disagree more. How about taking offense with the fact that some will not accept Happy Holidays as a holiday greeting that includes everybody. Does TommyT believe that this is any kind of weakness with the offended’s own belief system?

I’m sure he doesn’t, but there really isn’t much difference.

By MELO

December 13, 2006 09:21 AM | Link to this

Merry Xmas to you all. Anybody who is offended can go hug a tree. This reminds me of people who say marriage is threatened by homosexual behavior.How stupid is that.

I do not celebrate hannukah,kwanzaa and some of the Jewish,Hindu or other religious holidays apart from Christian ones. I dont care about them.I dont get offendfed when they say happy Hannukaa or Kwanzaa etc. So why should they? I think the world is sucking up too much to Jews! I mean that, and it p** me off! Stop this nonsense now.

By Watta Load

December 13, 2006 09:21 AM | Link to this

Jim gets a D- for this subject today…it’s a non-issue, the media has to scour the world for a few isolated stories about this.

Jim, please submit a more interesting subject or I’ll have to go visit that horrible woman to woman blog.

By Southern Democrat

December 13, 2006 09:21 AM | Link to this

Jbmlaw,

I wholeheartedly agree with your first paragraph and, as a Christian, lament both the decline and the overcommercialization of Christmas equally.

I, predictably, decline to respond to your second paragraph as I assume it is intended for the “other” strain of discourse that you have so well identified and advised me to steer clear.

I do not, though, think that there is any sort of War on Christmas or that the decline of Christmas’s prominence in popular culture is due to political correctness or “leftist wingnuts.” I am certain that most of you, like me, enjoy the same Christmas traditions that you did 20, 30 years ago, with minor modifications. The joy of Christmas is still ever present on the face of a child and in the random acts of kindness that seem to multiply this time of year.

I can tell you that when I lived in New York, I looked forward to the holiday season all year. Despite a tremendous Jewish population and, therefore, a deemphasis on the “Christ” portion of Christmas, the holiday season in New York was always splendidly festive and normally coarse men and women would deign to perform the kindliest of gestures.

If they will know we are Christians by our love, won’t “they” also know it is Christmas by our actions? Do I really need Wal-Mart to help me spread the message of Christmas?

By Rod

December 13, 2006 09:32 AM | Link to this

I’m offended by this column!!!

This column has become a “lame-duck” column ever since the Republicans got their a55es kicked in November.

Jim - get some balls and make a political column again. Turning into a p*** and writing about Christmas trees in a political blog is pathetic.

By Rev Haggard

December 13, 2006 09:34 AM | Link to this

Don’t you all know???? Jesus is looking down on us right now. Is he upset by our war in Iraq? Concerned about the starving in Africa?

Nope. Honey baked Hams said “Happy Holidays.”

By Chazman

December 13, 2006 09:39 AM | Link to this

the campaign against Christmas, mostly conducted by our American leftist friends, is a true symbol of evil in our time

Whoa, you’re slipping big time, jbmlaw.

By Curious Observer

December 13, 2006 09:41 AM | Link to this

We would not have a “war on Christmas” if all of us would be a little more sensitive to others.

I cringe when some jackass fundamentalist preacher at a public gathering feels compelled to end his prayer with “in Jesus’ name, amen.” He doesn’t know how many Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, and others of different faiths are in the crowd, and he doesn’t care.

The people who complain of a “war on Christmas” are of much the same variety. They want to shove their religion down the throats of everybody else, then whine when somebody shoves back.

I, for one, will continue to exercise some discretion at Christmas time. If I don’t know the religion of the person I greet, I’m certainly not going to lay a “Merry Christmas” on him. It is a matter of fundamental decency and consideration for others.

By Howard

December 13, 2006 09:51 AM | Link to this

Jim…excellent observations. The ACLU and abusive lawyers…plus that ridiculous interpretation of the Second Amendment by activist court judges…has led to this timidness and silliness in our gutless, linguine-spined country. My wife and I make it a point to say “Merry Christmas” to everyone at every store or place of business we shop. Three things will prove to be the ruination of the USA yet: multiculturalism, tolerance,and diversity. Great sounding words, but when interpreted and applied by the leftists in this country…they morph into something resembling Hitler’s Germany.

By Chazman

December 13, 2006 09:54 AM | Link to this

I dont care about them. I dont get offended when they say happy Hannukaa or Kwanzaa etc. So why should they?

Hey MELO, how many times has someone actually said happy Hannukaa or happy Kwanzaa to you? You make it sound like it’s a frequent occurence. Do you see if splashed across the front of sales papers? Do you ever see Happy Kwanzaa strung across the front of City Hall in lights?

By Political Deckhead

December 13, 2006 10:00 AM | Link to this

My Christmas List: robot dinosaur…..ipod…..crotchless jockstrap…..myrrh…..air jordans with wheels…..air jordans with lights….a white xmas tree…..a 21 inch flat panel LCD computer monitor (samsung)… paris hilton….a divorce….OJ’s book……a tax cut…..a hair cut……a surrender monkey…….and a partridge (shirley jones)….and that’s just for my stocking stuffers.

for under the tree, I want a hybrid humvee ….edible underwear….edible blow up doll….oedipus rex…..and an electric train set with miniature Nells to tie to the tracks!!!

By Chazman

December 13, 2006 10:00 AM | Link to this

Three things will prove to be the ruination of the USA yet: multiculturalism, tolerance,and diversity. Great sounding words, but when interpreted and applied by the leftists in this country…they morph into something resembling Hitler’s Germany.

Does anyone else see the tremendous irony in these two sentences? When I think of Hitler, I think three things he did not want were multicultarism, tolerance and diversity.

By @@

December 13, 2006 10:01 AM | Link to this

Gosh Jim, I’ve stepped into a war on Christmas. I guess that makes me a veteran doesn’t it?

I’m not a big fan of the commercialization of Christmas. I love the opportunity to give. It’s not a seasonal thing with me though, it’s year round. But Christmas? It’s a time of year when I know that others are inspired to give as well. That makes it a great time offering great opportunities for everyone.

The one thing I’m not willing to give away is an American tradition. Christmas hasn’t presented a problem until recently. Why? Because there are small interest groups who want to take away rather than give. Not very generous now is it?

My family and I are gonna be on a beach in South Florida for Christmas. A gift I’m giving to myself. The family is compromising…or giving if you will. Temperatures in the 80’s.

I love this global warming phase we’re in. Oops, that makes me another target for the leftists so I better go.

MERRY CHRISTMAS GIVING JIM & EVERYONE.

By Diogenes

December 13, 2006 10:01 AM | Link to this

Jim,

Your state quite rightly that: “Now can you imagine a value system so fragile, so ungrounded, that a mere sign would cause it to crumble, thereby possibly influencing one’s vote minutes later? Not long ago, we’d simply have walked on, voted, and acknowledged without offense the Catholic view.”

Our value systems have become fragile, a consequence of weak leadership at all levels, I would suggest. Our Christian brethren (and leaders) seemingly are unwilling to set an example with their behavior. Until those values become so inherent in the behavior of those who profess them, then we reap what we sow.

I’m curious. Did the rabbi get his menorah? He should have. He was willing to stand up for his values. One of the hardest lessons of all to learn is how to respect and appreciate the values of others.

We the People are a litigious, illiberal group who would rather quarrel nosily than try to achieve peaceful coexistence. Thank God for Jimmy Carter who has the courage to put his values on parade, then try to reconcile peacefully with those who took offense.

I know that your last statement was meant to be conservative irony. Jim, if you have a value system worth respecting, then stand up for it, as that rabbi did and as Jimmy Carter does. And Merry Christmas to you and yours. Or as the case may be, Happy Chanukah. Peace on Earth. Goodwill to all men.

By Buy Danish

December 13, 2006 10:05 AM | Link to this

There’s no War on Christmas?

Try telling that to the Lakeview Elementary School in Wilson County, Tennessee and countless other embattled districts, who received a complaint from the ACLU because of their Christmas Pageant.

Silent Night has taken on a whole new meaning - as the free expression of faith and joy is silenced. Those who attempt to sing Christmas carols, or even dare play the instrumental versions of these traditional songs are slapped with ACLU lawsuits.

Unlike Jim Wooten, who seems resigned to its inevitable defeat, many are fighting back against these and other attempts to destroy our American culture. Whether we succed or not depends on the efforts of fellow Americans, and raising a flag of surrender is a more than regrettable response.

By Boggle

December 13, 2006 10:15 AM | Link to this

The ACLU and abusive lawyers…plus that ridiculous interpretation of the Second Amendment by activist court judges

The right to bear arms? Christmas? What?

Look, if you’re going to rant and rave and spray spittle like a good little brainless right-winger, you at least ought to get your Bill of Rights straight.

By DebbieDoRight

December 13, 2006 10:17 AM | Link to this

oh please why are u whining Jim? isnt THIS what you wanted when you (conservatrons) INSISTED on having the 10 commandments posted to every building that public taxes paid for? what did you EXPECT would happen? did you forget that christians aren’t the only ones who pay taxes? NOW because of this, we get not only protests about a bunch of trees that are destined for fireplaces in a few days, but we have to have mennorahs next to them. pretty soon all the white witches in the united states will demand the pentagram be put next to the mennorahs too.

oh well, you can blame THAT on “leftist leaning media and democrats too” instead of pointing the finger where it belongs — towards your own conservatron faces.

By Diogenes

December 13, 2006 10:20 AM | Link to this

jmblaw (852),

Up until you started fulminating against the “liberals” that is the best blog you’ve posted. It’s well thought out and thought provoking. Well done.

By Diogenes

December 13, 2006 10:23 AM | Link to this

Curious Observer (941)

Your comment: “I for one, will continue to exercise some discretion at Christmas time. If I don’t know the religion of the person I greet, I’m certainly not going to lay a “Merry Christmas” on him. It is a matter of fundamental decency and consideration for others.”

Well said.

By DebbieDoRight

December 13, 2006 10:26 AM | Link to this

Three things will prove to be the ruination of the USA yet: multiculturalism, tolerance,and diversity

do u drink ur breakfast? let’s see who were the indigenous people of america…….indians. (2) what people’s labor and sacrifice helped to make the railroads across this country ……chinese. (3) who brought beer making to this country……germans. i could go on but then i’d be preaching.

this country was FOUNDED on diversity and multiculture — the english were immigrants when they came here just like every other european nation that came to the u.s.

read a history book sometimes — it might make you sound less stupid.

and NO i didn’t forget black americans — i figured that would be an obvious reference.

By Rod

December 13, 2006 10:26 AM | Link to this

Amen to DebbieDoRight!

By Captain Freedom

December 13, 2006 10:28 AM | Link to this

Unlike my stalwart efforts in defending Freedom in Iraq through my mighty Keyboard of Strength, I am an actual combat veteran in the Godless War on Christmas.

Last year, we had some problems with our septic tank. So, we hired some Mexicans to dig up the back yard and fix it. Well, it was quite a mess, and it stank pretty badly, and being a Good White Christian, I felt a bit bad for insisting that the Mexicans had to work on Christmas Eve, but the Captain’s evacuation needs are persistent and insistent, so necessity demanded their holiday toil.

But in this spirit of the Christmas Season, I donned my Santa cap and personally carried a cold six pack of holiday-themed Coca Cola to the brutes, loudly proclaiming, “Ho! Ho! Ho! Merrrrry Christmas”.

One of the ingrate beasts then intentionally spat upon my Holiday and the Baby Jesus Himself by responding with a devil’s grin, “Feliz Navidad, Senor.”

Imagine. My good will instantly turned to rage at his “multi-cultural”, anti-Christian gibe. So, like any Good White Christian, I pushed that brown heretic right into the muck of my septic tank, leaving him to ponder the true meaning of Christmas.

In the process, I suffered a slight calf muscle spasm, and was forced to my bed for two days with Ben Gay and percoset to recover. I wrote to the Brave Culture Warrior O’Reilly to tell him of my plight, and he made my combat heroics a central exhibit in his brave expose The War on Christmas and Illegal Immigration — The Hidden Leftist Agenda. Surely you saw it on Fox?

Merry Christmas to all my brethren and not-men sisters in True Belief. The rest of you can go straight to Hell.

By MELO

December 13, 2006 10:28 AM | Link to this

Chazman, Merry Xmas to yah. A number of times i have been greeted thus:happy Kwanzaa, i simply nswer back. It dont mean a thing to me and i dont get offended. Why should you or anybody else?

By Political Deckhead

December 13, 2006 10:33 AM | Link to this

My Christmas Wish is that our country’s only problem was “X-mas”.

word.

By DebbieDoRight

December 13, 2006 10:34 AM | Link to this

• the campaign against Christmas, mostly conducted by our American leftist friends, is a true symbol of evil in our time.*

WOW! I have another one for you:

The Democrats’ gay agenda is working! Reinstate the draft, and thousands of young American men will suddenly become gay!

heard on the “hour of power” radio broadcast

By Buy Danish

December 13, 2006 10:38 AM | Link to this

Diogenes,

In response to this post, as I recall, you called me “Satan” last week, so please spare us your hypocritical sanctimony and sermons on proper “behavior”.

Your preachy interpretation of Christianity, with Jimmy Carter symbolizing YOUR interpretation of the Christ’s message, is from your Left/Socialist viewpoint and is not shared by myself and many others.

Carter is the last person I would choose to represent my viewpoints as a Christian - his latest travesty being the publication of a book accusing Israel of “Apartheid” - something that I am unable to see as a gesture of Peace on Earth and Goodwill to men.

Carter has made a career of cozying up to dictators like Fidel Castro, and it is my belief that siding with tyrants is not the wisest demonstration of Christian “behavior”.

By getalife

December 13, 2006 10:41 AM | Link to this

Jim is trying to win the war on Christmas

While Americans are dying and maimed in w’s disaster

Happy Holidays.

By Bemused Humanist

December 13, 2006 10:44 AM | Link to this

Mr. Wooten,

It is painful when some of Mr. Jmblaw’s usual intelligence and civility writes so patently offensive a comment as one he posted at 8:53 am.

Where to begin? Let’s start with the mere phrase “the campaign against Christmas.” Right-wing blogs, hyper-inflated Christian evangelicals, and (last and least) Fox News Vulgarians of the Masses like Hannity and O’Reilly would have you believe there is some orchestrated assault on the Christian holiday. They do so by demonizing “the Others” : liberals, Muslins, atheists, et. al., who are made up as ogres to be feared and despised (an old technique perfected by Hitler and Goebbels seventy years ago) by using the Chimera of some “War on Christmas.”

Of course, it is nonsense. The only “organized” campaign in this regard is the ACLU’s attempt to keep religious symbols from being displayed by governmental entities or their agents in a preferential manner. Period. They do this with the support of those of us who are concerned with the undo intrusion of Christianity into State affairs, those of us who believe that in a free society the two should be kept separate.

This is not a theoretical subject. Christians and non-Christians alike (including many true Conservatives) have become very alarmed at the growing power of the evangelical right-wing, especially under an administration that feels it necessary to vet Supreme Court nominees to odious, demagogic preachers like Jerry Falwell and James Dobson. Just two days ago NPR had a story about Pentagon generals proselytizing Christianity inside the building and in uniform, which if a violation of the military code of justice.

While the Christian right-wing has attempted to portray America as a “Christian” nation, the truth it our great founders were men of the Enlightenment, deeply suspicious of the power of organized religion (someone was posting wonderful quotes from James Madison on this very topic over at Luckovitich’s blog.) It is not an accident that Thomas Jefferson put “Author of … the Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom” on his tombstone. He would have started another Revolution had he seen the way Bush and his flunkies kowtow to despicable TV preachers masquerading as “Men of God.”

OK … then Mr. Jmblaw calls this (non)campaign “a true symbol of evil.” For shame. Defending the Constitution in a manner with which you do not agree is “evil”? I suppose that as he has seen fit to sing the praises of Jean Kirkpatrick, an enabler of the torturing and murdering dictator Augusto Pinochet (I am sure they have been consigned to the same circle of Hell), perhaps his definition of that term is slightly different than, say, the rest of humanity’s.

Mr. Jmblaw then goes on with all sort of vapid platitudes about “It is the only time of the year our modern American culture unites to reflect peacefully on the ultimate meanings of life”. Really? Is that what Americans do at Christmas? Philosophical contemplation of the meanings of life? Who? Where? Getalife and TFTT grasping hands and singing Kumbaya? Is that what hate-spewing bloviators like Rush and Ann do at Christmas, or are they doing what they do all year – make money by demonizing other Americans and furthering divisions in the country, this time with their phony “war “? And what about those of us who contemplate the meanings of life all year round? We believe it should be done every day. Are we to be shunned because we do it when it isn’t Christmas? And why does such contemplation require societal unification, much less government-sponsored crèches? Buddhists seem to do fine without them … as do the Humanists …. but we are all going to hell, right?

There is a ton more, but here are two last observations: First, Wal-Mart is driven by the profit motive and only the profit motive They would say “Happy Hitler’s Birthday” if it would increase sales. Your wonderful free market has no soul, no morality. It’s all about the greed – the way you like it, right?

And Mr. Wooten – many (far too many, in my opinion) voters make up their minds in the voting booth. You underestimate the power of signs and signals to influence these undecideds. It is especially important now, with the country almost exactly divided in half and the right-wing attempting to curtail voting rights. Take the anti-abortion signs down, or move the voting site out of the church in question

There is no War on Christmas. The irony is that there should be a war on those claiming there is one.

By SpaceyG

December 13, 2006 10:45 AM | Link to this

Oh puuhhhlllleeeaaazzzuuuhhh! I went to so many Christmas choral (religious) concert choirs, pageants, etc. this past weekend I was begging for some pure ghetto rap by Sunday evening.

If you want a religious Christmas experience, then stop whining and go get yourself one.

http://spaceygreview.blogspot.com

By MELO

December 13, 2006 10:45 AM | Link to this

Another Republican congressman bit the dust in Texas!!!

These creatures are slowly getting extinct,like Xmas!!

By cheesebuzz

December 13, 2006 10:48 AM | Link to this

We truly have become a nation of the perpetually offended; a nation of individuals lacking part of their anatomy - a back bone. Wish I had the answer. Merry Christmas everyone.!

By DebbieDoRight

December 13, 2006 10:49 AM | Link to this

Carter is the last person I would choose to represent my viewpoints as a Christian - his latest travesty being the publication of a book accusing Israel of “Apartheid” - something that I am unable to see as a gesture of Peace on Earth and Goodwill to men

im interested in knowing if you actually READ the book — or if you’re just repeating something you heard or read on Fox News.

Carter has made a career of cozying up to dictators like Fidel Castro, and it is my belief that siding with tyrants is not the wisest demonstration of Christian “behavior”

hmmm carter cozies up to dictators and Jesus cozied up to the prostitutes, the tax collectors, and the deginerates in his society. Jesus made a new religion and millions of converts by “practising what he preached” — i see how un-christian that is now! no wonder you’re so mad at carter!!

By Real Faith is not for Weanies

December 13, 2006 10:53 AM | Link to this

Oh the poor Christians. So put upon by the rest of the world. The media is against them, the leftists are against them, the horrible stores are against them….whaaaaaaaaaaaa, sniff sniff whaaaaaaaa.

If your faith is so weak that it is threatened by not having it validated every 10 minutes by Merry Christmas or seeing the 10 Commandments on the courthouse then perhaps a little more time in the Word is what you need, not more time whining about how persecuted you are.

Matthew was run through with a sword in Ethopia.

Mark was dragged by horses through the streets until he was dead in Alexandria, Egypt.

Luke was hanged in Greece as a result of his tremendous preaching to the lost.

Although John died peacefully on Patmos, prior to that he was boiled in a huge basin of boiling oil during a wave of persecution in Rome. Somehow he survived.

Peter,was crucified upside down on an x-shaped cross.

Paul was tortured and then beheaded by the Emperor Nero at Rome in A.D. 67.

This is real persecution. This is what the apostles had to face to see through to fruition the birth of the church. Each time one of you whiners loses sight of Matthew 28:18-20 and focuses attention on such trivial matters you cheapen the faith, distract from the real call of Christ, and make it more difficult to attract people to the Gospel. Think about it, who in their right mind wants to hang around with such a bunch of whiners.

Grow up and realize that your faith is not threatened nor cheapened by what Target or Wal-Mart calls Christmas.

If it is then the problem lies within you.

By Diogenes

December 13, 2006 10:53 AM | Link to this

Bemused Humanist (1044)

Well thought out and well said.

By Boggle

December 13, 2006 10:53 AM | Link to this

Carter has made a career of cozying up to dictators like Fidel Castro, and it is my belief that siding with tyrants is not the wisest demonstration of Christian “behavior”.

Hey - better remind George W. of that the next time you see him posing next to Hu Jintao.

By TommyT

December 13, 2006 10:58 AM | Link to this

How about taking offense with the fact that some will not accept Happy Holidays as a holiday greeting that includes everybody. Does TommyT believe that this is any kind of weakness with the offended’s own belief system?

Chazman: The “holiday” you are talking about is Christmas, is it not?

Why does this have to be explained to you?

By Chazman

December 13, 2006 11:01 AM | Link to this

MELO, don’t you know that you burn in you-know-where for typing Xmas instead of Christmas? You will be put on the anti-Christmas hit list, led by O’Reilly and John Gibson. You will be the subject of O’Reilly’s talking points if your not careful. But at least you capitalized the X in xmas. I’ll give you that.

Now you ask why should I or anyone else be offended? I’ll put it back at yah….why should people be offended if a store has happy holidays instead of Merry Christmas? Or if City Hall has Happy Holidays strunf up in lights instead of Merry Christmas? Really, should they be offended by that? It includes them. So should they be offended?

By Libby Liberal

December 13, 2006 11:03 AM | Link to this

This year I’m celebrating Christmas by selling all of my belongings and giving the money to the poor.

By Diogenes

December 13, 2006 11:03 AM | Link to this

DebbieDoRight (1049)

“hmmm carter cozies up to dictators and Jesus cozied up to the prostitutes, the tax collectors, and the deginerates in his society. Jesus made a new religion and millions of converts by “practising what he preached” — i see how un-christian that is now! no wonder you’re so mad at carter!!”

Very well said. It is usually the most avid “Christian” who forgets that Jesus was a radical, teaching the overthrow of the Sadducees and Pharisees and, by extension, the Roman government. Jesus would not have tolerated these evangelical wimps for a minute.

By Sick&Tired

December 13, 2006 11:04 AM | Link to this

Jim Wooten,

From a Christian who celebrates Christmas, I would like to say “Happy Holidays” to you.

I’m not offended, because I know that GOD loves everyone.

When will people, such as yourself, learn this one IMPORTANT bible reference.

So let’s try to include as much diversity into our lives as possible.

According to you JIM Wooten, discrimination is only in the heads of people who expect handouts from your group. I’m a Christian and I don’t feel as if Christmas is being “Picked-ON” - I think it’s better to include everyone and every possible way to celebrate the Holiday spirit.

Who cares what Macy’s, JC Penny, Dillards, etc… puts in a catelog or show in a commercial……… they only want to get our business.

You guys who complain about Christmas, act as if you OWN the reason we celebrate. Here’s one for YAH!!!!! You don’t own the Christmas or Holiday Season.

By who_really_cares_anyway?

December 13, 2006 11:07 AM | Link to this

Melo kills me…

“Happy Xmas?” To me, that’s more offensive than a “Happy Holidays,” that takes in ALL religious beliefs!

By Fall Line

December 13, 2006 11:09 AM | Link to this

No one can take Christmas away from a Christian. Christmas is. It’s as simple as that. Walmart, Dilliards, and Macy’s are not Christmas. Let them slant their pitch anyway they want to get the response they need to sell their wares. It doesn’t affect me or my belief that the celebration of Christ’s birthday is important. That said, I do wonder to whom the Honey-baked ham company is targeting with their “happy holidays;” surely not Jews and Muslims!

By who_really_cares_anyway?

December 13, 2006 11:11 AM | Link to this

Do any of you understand that Christmas is NOT the only holiday that is coming up that people buy gifts for others?

Tempest in a teapot, mountains of molehills, pick your cliche…

By who_really_cares_anyway?

December 13, 2006 11:13 AM | Link to this

Fall Line, “Happy Holidays,” usually encompasses New Year’s Eve and Day, and frequenly Three Kings Day (oops, no diversity..it’s a holiday many Hispanics celebrate but I’ve forgotten, they’re persona non-grata…)

Hence…Hams being sold under a “Happy Holidays Banner…”

Signed, A person celebrating more than just Christmas!

By Political Deckhead

December 13, 2006 11:15 AM | Link to this

This blog is entitled WTF?

2 bombshells in the news so far this week, and it’s only wednesday:

1). Waziristan, a Taliban State on the Pakistan/Afghan border, is apparently incorporating itself as a haven for terrorists, and could be the hiding place of OBL himself. Pakistan cant touch the taliban who hide in these remote mountains. They’ve tried for five years. They cant do it. It’s impossible. The topography is impregnable. The terrain is so treacherous, you could hold out forever with a den of cub scouts armed with sling shots. Who of us knew about Waziristan???? WTF?

2). The Saudi’s warned today about siding with the sunni insurgency if we ever leave. WTF???

The Saudi story is telling, the implications alarming. We may have to side with the Sunnis now, in order to prevent a regional spread of this conflict. This means we may have to overthrow the very government, mostly Shia, that we just sponsored in Iraq.

and it’s only wednesday… but at least I can still wish you a merry christmas and only ellicit aclu ire…..okay, merry xmas…..i’masurrendermonkeyboy

PS. Historically, twice before, we encouraged the Shia to revolt against their Sunni masters in Iraq, and twice we double-crossed them and withdrew our support and allowed the Sunni to annihilate the uprising. WTF do you think the Shia think of the USA now?

This is why I say, (and Kofi Annan says), that the USA is trapped in Iraq. We simply cant leave….ever. The consequences are too grave. We will spend trillions.

Iraq is New Alabama, our 51st state.

By Alex

December 13, 2006 11:15 AM | Link to this

Well said Bemused Humorist.

The supposed “War on Christmas” is just one of a long list of issues that the right has used to polarize our country. The religious right and neocons are convinced that our country is slowly declining into ….. I dunno, anarchy I guess. So they respond by proclaiming a “culture war” where you have to “be on the right side” because “you’re either for us or against us (read ‘with the terrorists’). I just don’t understand how, if our country’s falling apart, further polarizing people is the answer. They right wing talks about how the leftist principles of “diversity,” “tolerance” and “multiculturalism” are threatening the founding principles and the ideals that hold our country together, yet it is they who seem content to desecrate our Bill of Rights (it’s discouraging that for the most part, things like habeus corpus didn’t even put up a fight). I just don’t get it. Conservatives are convinced that the only way to prevent our country’s complete deviation from our “christian” Founding Fathers is to completely divide it into the Right and the wrong, yet it was one of our country’s first leaders and greatest minds, Benjamin Franklin, who once said “We must all hang together, or assuredly we will all hang separately.”

By Chazman

December 13, 2006 11:19 AM | Link to this

You’re right TommyT. This holiday we are talking about is Christmas. Thus, the Christmas holidays, as many call it. Thus, Happy Holidays, as many say. Why should that offend anyone?

Why does this have to be explained to you?

By Fall Line

December 13, 2006 11:23 AM | Link to this

Last I heard, “Three kings Day” is a christian holiday. Aren’t most Hispanics Christian?

By Redneck Convert

December 13, 2006 11:26 AM | Link to this

If the heathens would just become good Christians, we wouldn’t have to worry about saying Merry Christmas. Anyway, this country was founded by god-fearing Christians. I hear they was all on their knees back when they started it. There wasn’t a Jew or a Muslim or a Hindu to be found back then. Then we let them in this country and there’s been nothing but trouble ever since.

Last I heard, most people in this country are Christians. And in this country the majority rules. So we ought to vote to outlaw all the other religions. No other religions, no war on Christmas, right?

Anyway, I’m on my way to help deckerate the big Christmas tree at the church. But I’ll quit if Sister Dusty tries to boss me around. I don’t take orders from no woman. The bible says men are the bosses. Merry Christmas, everybody.

By Boggle

December 13, 2006 11:29 AM | Link to this

Last I checked, Honey Baked Ham sells meats other than pork. Not to mention the fact that many Jews no longer keep Kosher.

By Alex

December 13, 2006 11:30 AM | Link to this

By time for the truth

December 13, 2006 11:33 AM | Link to this

As an avowedly secular non-religious conservative I find the leftist/secular racial pandering and attacks on the FEDERAL holiday of Christmas utterly pathetic. In nasal whining yankkkee New Yaaawk City they allow a mohammedan symbol and a jewish symbol but NOT a christian one in the schools. This case is now before SCOTUS.

The kwanza JOKE isn’t even funny - some black bigot (not a joke) arrogantly decided that blacks needed to have a micky mouse made up ‘holiday’ - so as not to be left out. So now a tiny proportion of blacks mark this utterly arbitrary contrived bollocks - purely out of racial pique. The murderous fascistic terror loving Mohammedans have NO fixed/traditional religious festival at this time of year. Jews have Hannukah which gently meanders in mid-late December according to their calendar. The only major ‘fixed’ festival at this time is the 25th December - the well established traditional birthday of Mithra - an extremely popular pagan god, hence the early christians adopted this important day many many centuries ago, albeit ignoring the arguably more historically accurate orthodox church’s designated day.

In modern times after Xmas was made a federal holiday by the imperial fed govt it was the ONLY major fixed religious festival that was celebrated by virtually everyone here on the fruited plain. Nowadays there are two Xmases - the religious day and the tinselly, Father Christmas and Rudolph and tacky cheapo made in red commie China lights and plastic outdoor seasonal effigies that only plebian morons think are cool etc - both strands of Xmas celebrations give gifts, usually around an old ‘pagan’ decorated Xmas tree.

Ignoring the absurdities of the alleged (back then) COMMUNAL GARDEN ‘virgin birth’ and the nonsense of the non-existent/twisted biblical “predicktions” of some kind of messiah, it is churlish in the extreme to deny the huge majority of Americans the right to enjoy their religious Xmas without the oppressive stalinist ACLU nazis stomping all over a simply enough harmless pleasure for tens of millions.

Gone now is the spirit of the season, replaced with crappy commercialism, credit card funded gift competition and leftist spite.

Most tragic of all is the harsh reality that increasingly the magic moment for tens of millions of kids waking up excitedly in what is still at least notionally christendom early on Xmas morning to see what Father Xmas (Santa in coca cola land) had left by the tree or stuffed into a stocking left by a child’s bed is now no longer a shared moment by all kiddies - naughty or nice.

A British Christmas has far more ‘impact’ than an American one, not least simply because we have at least two days off - Boxing Day (the 26th) is also a national holiday. With a full football programme and most of the shops and virtually all businesses are still shut, there are NO trains either. There used to be the best telly of the year over Christmas - with Xmas specials of all the top shows, as well as national traditions like the Morecambe and Wise show and so on, and the biggest films of the year had their TV premieres. The Xmas time foods in UK supermarkets still are top quality and uniquely British, unequalled for choice anywhere I’ve ever seen. And an annual Xmas day visit to one’s local pub to see friends between 12-2pm was a great tradition that many folks used to avail themselves of.

Here the Xmas day holiday is just another day, albeit with few businesses open. nothing on the TV to rival England. No magic, no Xmas feeling. With virtually everything open again on 26th - its gone - like a Kerry Vietnam band-aid battle scratch.

At least I have my all region dvd player so I can enjoy my Xmas British TV specials from yesteryear again.

Happily thus far no black or liberal bigot has decried the notion of a “white chistmas” - but give it time folks.

Pete Sinfield wrote the lyrics:

They said there’ll be snow at Christmas,

They said there’ll be peace on earth,

But instead it just kept on raining,

A veil of tears for the Virgin birth.

I remember one Christmas morning,

The Winter’s light and a distant choir,

And the peal of a bell and that Christmas tree smell,

And eyes full of tinsel and fire.

They sold me a dream of Christmas,

They sold me a silent night,

They told me a fairy story,

‘Til I believed in the Israelite.

And I believed in Father Christmas,

And I looked to the sky with excited eyes,

Then I woke with a yawn in the first light of dawn,

And I saw him and through his disguise.

I wish you a hopeful Christmas,

I wish you a brave New Year,

All anguish, pain and sadness,

Leave your heart and let your road be clear.

They said there’d be snow at Christmas,

They said there’d be peace on earth,

Hallelujah! Noel!, be it Heaven or Hell,

The Christmas we get, we deserve.

MERRY CHRISTMAS FOLKS … try listening also to the classic Slade or John Lennon Xmas singles.

By getalife

December 13, 2006 11:34 AM | Link to this

Told ya w will send more troops.

If he does not the Saudis will invade Iraq to fight with the Sunnis.

Iran will invade to fight with the Shiites.

Then you will have a full scale regional war.

Right now, there is civil war in Iraq, Lebanon and Palestine.

This is the consequences of w’s disaster. It is far from over.

I bet all you good Christians love to see more Americans killed in this ongoing disaster because you are scared.

Pathetic.

By Selective Scripture quoting at 10:53

December 13, 2006 11:35 AM | Link to this

Acts 1:8- You will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

It doesn’t say “hide my name where no one will see it,” trust me.

By Buy Danish

December 13, 2006 11:40 AM | Link to this

DebbieDoRant,

If any one is in desperate need of studying history, it is you. I have not read Carter’s book, nor shall I. Here is a review from Amazon.com which is not a wholly owned subsidiary of Fox News:

Throughout his work, Carter assigns ultimate blame to Israel, arguing that the country’s leadership has routinely undermined the peace process through its obstinate, aggressive and illegal occupation of territories seized in 1967. He’s decidedly less critical of Arab leaders, accepting their concern for the Palestinian cause at face value, and including their anti-Israel rhetoric as a matter of course, without much in the way of counter-argument.

Or better yet, scroll down and read Jeffrey Goldberg’s unflattering review for the Washington Post.

Carter blames Israel first, just as he blames America first. That’s why you and other Leftist admire him so much.

Diogenes,

It says a lot about you that you find DebbieDoRight’s blatherings have value.

Unlike Christ, Carter did not attempt to convert Castro to ideals of humanity and Liberty, but rather chose to emulate him for his Leftist views - the very concepts which keep his people in a perpetual state of misery. Put 3 year olds in prison but we have free health care for all!

Since you admire Christ’s “radical” side, can I infer that you would like to overthrow us just as he wanted to overthrow the Romans? If not, what was your point exactly?

Over and out…

By Ditzty Malloy

December 13, 2006 11:41 AM | Link to this

Jim good comments on Honeybaked!!! But let me tell you of a situation that happened to me last night.

You know how Wal-Mart has said it will now say “Merry Christmas” instead of that God-awful “happy holidays”?

Well, you are not going to believe this. I was at my local Wal-Mart last night and guess what???? The very feminine looking male greeter (who was obviously from Mexico) Looks at me and says in his gay-accent “happy holidays”!! HOW DARE YOU!

I think Operation Rescue should reinstate their Wal-Mart Boycott. NOW! IT WAS SUPPOSED TO HAVE BEEN “MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!”

Comprahendie Wal-Mart? If they ever say that “Felixs Navedaad” to me in that same Mexican accent I’ll go ballistic.

By DebbieDoRight

December 13, 2006 11:42 AM | Link to this

Grow up and realize that your faith is not threatened nor cheapened by what Target or Wal-Mart calls Christmas. If it is then the problem lies within you.

best post of the day!!!

By Janet

December 13, 2006 11:45 AM | Link to this

America was found on a Christian foundation. People are welcome to come to our country and worship however they want, but they shouldn’t complain when we do Christian things in our Christian country. Personally, if I went to live a Jewish family, I wouldn’t get offended if they put up a menorah and not a christmas tree. If they are kind enough to let me into their home, I am not gonna cry about the way they do things.

By DebbieDoRight

December 13, 2006 11:46 AM | Link to this

It doesn’t say “hide my name where no one will see it,” trust me

then wear it on a t-shirt. everyone will see it then.

By uncle jessie

December 13, 2006 11:47 AM | Link to this

Ya’ll is missing the mark. Christmas is represented by X fer X-mas. X is Chi in latin, fer Christ. X also represents St. Andrews Cross same X found on Confederate flag. So sayin happy Christmas or X-Mas same as wavin Rebel flag in thar face. Think bout it. South aint called bible belt fer nothin you know.

By Say What?

December 13, 2006 11:47 AM | Link to this

Did “Sick and Tired” at 11:04 really say that Christians don’t own Christmas?

Did “time for the truth” at 11:33 really say that the human sin of worshipping a false god is a reason not to celebrate Christmas?

Did “Alex” at 11:30 really say that the Birth of Christ originated from a pagan celebration?

Do these people really believe all that?

Or do they jst hate religion that much?

By DebbieDoRight

December 13, 2006 11:50 AM | Link to this

DebbieDoRant…. I have not read Carter’s book, nor shall I

of course not. i forgot sheep don’t read — they just follow.

Unlike Christ, Carter did not attempt to convert Castro to ideals of humanity and Liberty

how do u know? were u there behind the closed doors listening in? or is that something you read in Fox news?

By MarkP

December 13, 2006 11:55 AM | Link to this

Jim - since you mainly focus on retail advertising rather than publicly funded displays and text, why in this case are you less reluctant to let the open market dictate how things go? Retailers need to decide on their own which cost is greater: the cost of offending Christians by omission of Christmas references, or the cost of offending other customers by referring to Christmas. I remember a time when we majority Christians complained about the name “Christmas” being misappropriated to the commercial and other secular aspects of the general “Holiday Season” - the same holiday season that now causes such affront as its own euphemism. Christmas is the time to stop reading bad intentions into simple word choices - from all sides.

By DebbieDoRight

December 13, 2006 11:56 AM | Link to this

Janet: people who are born in this country and/or have ancestors who have been here for centuries aren’t guests. they are tax paying, voting citizens.

By Jim

December 13, 2006 11:58 AM | Link to this

Only Christians are to be “tolerant”. It is all right for anyone and everyone to take offense at Christmas traditions, which are for retailers truth be told.

The fact that now NOT giving your spouse a car these days makes us less of a person is now being made more evident in daily TV ads. Pathetic.

The Birth of Christ is more likely in the spring, March or April, from planetary studies from years ago. It is also a fulfillment of Old Testament Prophecy, although not the sign “they” were looking for.

Truth be told if Charles Dickens were alive today he would have many to write about and not named Scrooge. We have lost the spirtual way of our forefathers. It may offend some but the US is a Christian settlement.

We have seen how other countries live on a daily basis and it is not something we have chosen to emulate. God has blessed this great nation. That cannot be ignored. It bothers all to many that those blessings seem to have alluded them.

The Nativity Story is sn excellent movie, few liberties were taken. I hope many take the opportunity to see it an be moved to action in 2007.

By abc

December 13, 2006 11:59 AM | Link to this

Catholics dreamed up Christmas in the 3rd century to compete with a pagan celebration that cooincided with December 24th and 25th. Christ is believed to have actually been born in late spring. Christmas wasn’t celebrated in America until the early 1800’s, and was considered a pagan holiday until then. It’s mostly a pagan holiday today, a retail bonanza.

By Boggle

December 13, 2006 12:00 PM | Link to this

Actually, “Say What”, what he said was Virtually all of our Christmas traditions were stolen from pagan holidays that Christians felt threatened by.

I would disagree with the “felt threatened by” portion of that statement, but otherwise he is correct. If you would knew…well…anything about the history of Christianity you would know this.

Almost all major festivals in the Liturgical calendar are Christian transformations of Pagan festivals. Easter…Christmas…All Saint’s Day (the day after halloween, or “All Hallow’s Eve”…get it?).

As the HRE moved into Gaul and other parts of Western Europe, they discovered a basic truth of conquest: Native people don’t like it when you take their festivals away. So, voila, celebrations of the Vernal Equinox became Easter, celebrations of the Winter Solstice became Christmas…etc. etc. etc.

It’s not “hating religion” to be aware of its historical roots. Only people who worship ignorance believe that it is.

By time for the truth

December 13, 2006 12:03 PM | Link to this

Did “time for the truth” at 11:33 really say that the human sin of worshipping a false god is a reason not to celebrate Christmas?

the tw@ts are out in force today I see!

IF??? there is such a thing as god or any kind of god then clearly his personal representative on earth is the current England Football team manager (although the snivelling wanker Peter T**r is the demon seed exception).

By jg

December 13, 2006 12:06 PM | Link to this

I heard a radio account recently of a voter who threatened to file suit to get a polling place removed from a Catholic church social hall because signs there opposed abortion. Now can you imagine a value system so fragile, so ungrounded, that a mere sign would cause it to crumble, thereby possibly influencing one’s vote minutes later? I have my doubts this was about being personally offended as much as a threatened lawsuit, right or wrong, is another political weapon to be used in an issue many, on both sides, feel very strongly about.

By Middle America

December 13, 2006 12:08 PM | Link to this

Last time I checked, pine trees decorated with colorful lights, ornaments and tinsel had nothing to do with the actual meaning of Christmas. So to me, people who get upset with “Christmas trees” being displayed or people who force businesses to call them “holiday trees” all make me sick. I think both sides of this argument are ridiculous. If the airport put up a bunch of crosses, then the rabbi might have a real beef, but not over secular holiday symbols like a tree. Some common sense is needed here. Just like seemingly all photo copies are called a Xerox copy, all trees decorated in December are called “Christmas trees”. That does not mean the person who put them up is necessarily celebrating the birth of Jesus. In fact, Christmas the holiday, has about as much to do with religion these days as George W. Bush does with common sense, very little. Both sides of this issue are being overly sensitive for stupid reasons.

By Gabby

December 13, 2006 12:08 PM | Link to this

Mr. Luckovich, Christmas is a joyous celebration of giving. The three kings travelled to give a gift for THE GIFT OF CHRIST.

It worries me when groups support the removal of Christ from the holiday. I fear that once they are successful and I believe they will be if we surrender, we will end up with more stories like these…

Thieves Steal Toys Firefighters Bought For Sick Kids

Thieves steal computers from Surrey Christmas Bureau

Thieves steal turkeys, hens intended for needy families in Reno

Toys Stolen from Firefighters’ Holiday Cheer Fund

Students raise money to replace stolen Nativity scene

There is a site where Lordnappers can get help for the voices in their head. Maybe a lot of your posters here should visit.

By Boggle

December 13, 2006 12:14 PM | Link to this

There is not one redeeming feature in our superstition of Christianity. It has made one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites

-Thomas Jefferson

By Alex

December 13, 2006 12:15 PM | Link to this

Say What, I said our Christmas traditions originate largely from Pagan holidays because it’s true. The Christmas tree comes from a pagan symbol from a winter solstice festival. Christmas evolved out of a bunch of pre-Christian celebrations of winter from the Roman Empire. It’s something we from the left wing like to call facts. From history. We don’t make it up. This may be alarming, I understand. It’s because you’ve just been so fully inundated by and socialized within an Orwellian right wing culture, which is sad.

By Van

December 13, 2006 12:19 PM | Link to this

Let me think here.

The federal holiday on 12/25 is named what?

Christmas trees are secular and not religious. Some even go so far as calling them Hanukkah trees or bushes.

Most of our Christmas traditions have roots in many different cultures.

So what is the big deal about celebrating Christmas? In wishing someone a Merry Christmas, a Happy Hanukkah, Season Greeting or Happy Holidays so terrible?

Use which ever you wish, but do not discriminate against one or the other. As usual the secular progressives are the least tolerant and the christians are the most.

Anyone that would be a curmudgeon regarding this time of year, isn’t going to have any happiness or peace on earth. Their own twisted minds won’t let them.

By Marie

December 13, 2006 12:21 PM | Link to this

Maybe stores and other businesses should decorate Christmas trees with menorah ornaments.

By DebbieDoRight

December 13, 2006 12:24 PM | Link to this

Gabby - perhaps u shd visit ur opthamolgist — this isn’t luckovich’s website……….

By Gabby

December 13, 2006 12:33 PM | Link to this

Marie @ 12:21. I think that would be a great idea and any other religions symbol if they want.

Excellent suggestion.

By Red

December 13, 2006 12:38 PM | Link to this

For the love of Allah! You right wing wack jobs test my liberal desire to accept everyone as they are; a Christian nation? As a Christian, I can’t wait for our oppression to finally end in this country. For so long we’ve been denied our liberties because of our faith. Perhaps one day soon, we’ll finally emerge from the desert and be able to celebrate an inauguration to the Presidency of one of our own Christian brethren. Maybe even two Christian presidents in a row- or three- or forty two.

By Boggle

December 13, 2006 12:39 PM | Link to this

Use which ever you wish, but do not discriminate against one or the other. As usual the secular progressives are the least tolerant and the christians are the most.

Bunk. I’ve never met one single “secular progressive” who was offended by being wished “Merry Christmas”. I have, however, seen raving right-wing fundamentalist loons nearly spit in the faces of people in stores who have wished them “Happy Holidays”. It’s no accident that it’s the ultra-right wing talking heads who are fanning the flames of this oh-so-manufactured “controversy”.

By Van

December 13, 2006 12:43 PM | Link to this

Boggle

A good conscience is a continual Christmas. Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790)

Christmas is not a time nor a season, but a state of mind. To cherish peace and goodwill, to be plenteous in mercy, is to have the real spirit of Christmas. Calvin Coolidge

“I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever.”

Thomas Jefferson quote

By Van

December 13, 2006 12:46 PM | Link to this

Boggle,

And I have never met a christian that would not wish his/her jewish friends a Happy Hanukkah, but many progressive secularists would not mouth Merry Christmas and mean it.

By DebbieDoRight

December 13, 2006 12:46 PM | Link to this

for those of u who say they’re worried about illegal immigration, here’s something that should make you feel better:

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/16226320.htm

By MELO

December 13, 2006 12:47 PM | Link to this

Chuzman, I greet people this way,* ‘Merry Christmas and happy holidays’(Xmas-same to me, no offense intended and if u do, plug ur ears) Those who substitute Xmas for holidays have a problem, not us the Xmas people and they have to do the explaining. For most of them, its a commercial thing which i understand. But if you greet me by saying’happy holidays’, U will get‘Merry Christmas’* right in your face! Lets see see then if ur Mohammed, Buddha or some god of urs will make u jihad me for “blaspheming” u.

By Boggle

December 13, 2006 12:48 PM | Link to this

“I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever.”

Ah, if only Jefferson’s concept of God were the same as that of the evangelical fundies. Unfortunately, it wasn’t. Therefore, using it to support your argument is basically flawed.

By Steve

December 13, 2006 12:51 PM | Link to this

JbmLaw,

Your repeated use of the word “leftists” to describe those you disagree with is disturbing. This word has historically been used to describe enemies of the State marked to be eliminated. Stalin was a leftist; Castro is a leftist; Chavez is a leftist. The CIA worked closely with the likes of Augusto Pinochet in the 70s and 80s to affect the disappearance of persons identified as “leftists” both inside and outside of Chile. Is that your desire? Is it your intention, by deliberately selecting this term, to put a target on the backs of persons whose ideas you don’t share? Do you seek to have well meaning Americans murdered when they approach public policy from perspective different from yours?

If your response is to discount the seriousness of such labels or to remark on the hypersensitivity of “leftists””, would you be comfortable having the term “fascist” applied to you which includes, by definition, “forcible suppression of the opposition”? My sense is that any intelligent person who uses the word “leftist”, knowing its violent undertone, must be a fascist. Please tell me I’m wrong about you.

By Boggle

December 13, 2006 12:57 PM | Link to this

And I have never met a christian that would not wish his/her jewish friends a Happy Hanukkah, but many progressive secularists would not mouth Merry Christmas and mean it.

Yet again, bunk. Sorry, but most “progressive secularists” are Christians or at least religious in one way or another. I don’t know who these people are, but I suspect they exist only in the fevered imaginings of fundamentalists and shock jocks.

It’s very simple, Van. So simple that even a fundy can understand it. Let’s look at the course of events, shall we?

1) Various large retail chains start encouraging their employees to say “Happy Holidays” instead of singling out one holiday to create a spirit of inclusiveness and good will for everyone.

2) Various large Christian fundamentalist “family” organizations pitch shreiking frothing-at-the-mouth fits because the stores aren’t paying enough homage to their holiday. Boycotts and name-calling commences.

Now…how exactly is any of this the fault of anyone but you and your fundy buddies? I mean, the people being shrill and angry and spreading all the ugliness aren’t the owners of the retail chains who were, lets face it, just trying to be nice to everyone…it’s the loud-mouthed “you have to acknowledge my religion” fundamentalists of the right-wing Christian variety.

But it’s always amusing to watch you folk try to spin your petty nastiness so that it’s the faults of other people.

By Political Deckhead

December 13, 2006 01:16 PM | Link to this

If Baker is a surrender monkey, then earth must be the planet of the apes.

By DebbieDoRight

December 13, 2006 01:22 PM | Link to this

a christian’s look at “christmas”:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/252408_hart18.html

By Political Deckhead

December 13, 2006 01:23 PM | Link to this

The Saudis actually said they’d side with the Sunnis if we leave.

Why doesnt’ that bother anyone? Are you all tin patriots? Why doesn’t somebody do something? The Saudis are forcing our hand here.

When does Bush give that speech about the way forward? I cant wait to here the new parse.

Conservatives labeled the Iraqi Study Groups Recommendations as “fruit salad”. The only fruit salad here is on Rummy’s chest.

If Baker is a surrender monkey then this must be the planet of the apes, man.

By Diogenes

December 13, 2006 01:24 PM | Link to this

Jim,

I think the majority of these blogers would disdain handing you the Patrick Henry trophy for patriotic courage.

Most of them, however, would probably be willing to concede the George “Great Wall” Bush trophy for dittering in the face of slightly superior odds.

By Alex

December 13, 2006 01:25 PM | Link to this

Boggle, I agree 100%. I don’t know when all progressives got labeled as “atheist.” Thanks Bill O Reilly. Why don’t you go back to talking dirty to your intern, you hypocrite.

By Buy Danish

December 13, 2006 01:28 PM | Link to this

DebbieCrackPot,

God you’re an ignorant fool. Most historians and biographers were not present in the room with the people they choose to write about and most books are written decades if not centuries later.

Using your “How do you know were you in the room nyah nyah nyah” logic, we would have very little history to rely on.

You have no problem peddling your total falsehood that this country was founded on “multi-culturalism”, yet you question the smallest detail of universally acknowledged truths, such as the fact that Carter is a Leftist who has sided with men like Castro and Chavez against U.S. foreign policy.

Among other truths you deny are these -

Over and out.

By getalife

December 13, 2006 01:35 PM | Link to this

Ah, religious extremists just are not happy unless they are at war with something.

Bunch of whackos.

Happy Holidays!

By ICEMAN

December 13, 2006 01:50 PM | Link to this

All of you atheistic, Santa Claus hating, sanitizer using, homosexuals can kiss my grits!!!!

By Political Deckhead

December 13, 2006 01:59 PM | Link to this

After reading Buy Danish’s remarks, I think it’s high time our government ban any bidet use by third trimester expectant mothers.

wet word.

By ICEMAN

December 13, 2006 02:00 PM | Link to this

The people are attacking the very reason for the season. Without the birth of Jesus Christ, we would not be celebrating anything at the end of the year. Good response Buy Danish.

By Boggle

December 13, 2006 02:10 PM | Link to this

Without the birth of Jesus Christ, we would not be celebrating anything at the end of the year

Apparantly, the whole “Christmas replacing an existing festival” argument has yet to penetrate the lifeless tundra that is your scalp.

That aside, since no one is attacking Christ, the “reason for the season” (why is it that fundamentalists always come up with such trite catch-phrases) your ravings have no validity.

By Rock Solid

December 13, 2006 02:23 PM | Link to this

From the founding father James Madison, graduate of Princeton:

James Madison (class of 1771) observed, “The belief in a God All Powerful wise and good, is so essential to the moral order of the world and to the happiness of man, that arguments which enforce it cannot be drawn from too many sources nor adapted with too much solicitude to the different characters and capacities impressed with it.”

Other faiths are welcome but not allowed to overrule our Christian foundation.

By EnoughSaid

December 13, 2006 02:31 PM | Link to this

ICEMAN - you should read the Bible. No where does it specify that the end of the year or Dec. 25th has anything to do with Jesus Christ. However, I guess we should all be Thankful to him, if we make it until that date.

Furthemore, if you think saying Merry Christmas, having a Christmas tree, singing Christmas carols and putting up Christmas decoration is the reason we celebrate - you definitely do not have a CLUE about Jesus Christ.

In addition, Jesus never complained about anybody taking anything away from him. He made the best of what was available and gave his life for us all.

No where does it say, he gave his life for Only Christians.

I think if we are going to “Pick a day” to celebrate - it should be as inclusive as possible. And since Dec. 25th of every year, is the day we “picked” - you should all have enough decency to want to include everyone he gave his life for. Be they Muslim, Jew, Atheist, Buhdist, Christians, etc………

If you’re going to argue over saying Christmas, you don’t understand why Jesus gave his life for all of us.

Plain & Simple

By ICEMAN

December 13, 2006 02:32 PM | Link to this

Boggled,

If there was any sign of life inside that vacuum of space/time continuum you call your head, you would know that an attack on saying “Christmas” is attacking Christ. Otherwise, why would it be divisive to say Christmas.If its so divisive, why hasn’t it divided us throughout the hundreds of years we’ve been saying it. Its only seen as divisive by those who want to eliminate it because of this new modern culture of political correctness(why do pagans come up with trite titles like fundamentalists). No one was offended or divided, until cerebrum challenged secularists like you began to allow the media to tell you how to think.

The Iceman has spoken.

By Diogenes

December 13, 2006 02:32 PM | Link to this

Boogle (210)

We’d probably still be celebrating Saturnalia, Rome’s end of the year holiday. If not that, most of the people the Romans conquered had some end of year festival. They’d have picked up something along the way to celebrate the dead of winter. The Roman soldiers loved nothing better than a good party.

By Diogenes

December 13, 2006 02:37 PM | Link to this

Rock Solid (223)

Your quotation from Madison, “The belief in a God All Powerful wise and good, is so essential to the moral order of the world and to the happiness of man… ” sounds good. Even Diogenes can endorse that concept.

Just one question, however, when is that part going to start, especially the part about “essential to the moral order of the world?”

By getalife

December 13, 2006 02:39 PM | Link to this

Christians?

Please, we have preachers stealing , molesting, and taking meth.

Homophobes, hypocrites, and pathetic scared Americans who infiltrated government to cause major damage and separation in our country.

Which part of “thou shall not kill” do you religious extremists not understand?

Pray at church and stop forcing your ideas on others.

Happy Holidays!

By Southern Democrat

December 13, 2006 02:39 PM | Link to this

Rock Solid,

You clearly did not attend Princeton, nor did you major in history. President Madison was an ardent supporter of the separation of Church and State and regularly vetoed bills that sought to appropriate government monies to Christian churches. One quote you might find instructive:

“Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise” -James Madison, Letter to William Bradford, April 1, 1774

By Jo

December 13, 2006 02:41 PM | Link to this

Ohhh, poor, put-upon “Christians”, feeling so-o-o threatened & insecure because believers of other faiths want to be treated equally. If you recall, that rabbi in Wa. state had NO beef with Christmas trees, he just wanted a Menorah put up IN ADDITION. I assure you the whole “Happy Holidays” thing would not even be an issue if you didn’t treat Jews, etc, like filth. You idiots, let me aquaint you with a few home truths:1) Jesus was not only Jewish but a RABBI. He was Jewish AND a rabbi till He died 2)If it weren’t for Judaism, there would BE no Christianity 3)If you are truly as Christian as you CLAIM to be, you would certainly not hate anyone who’s different from you nor would you make cruel comments to the effect that anyone who’s not in the “majority” is worthless & deserves to be treated like garbage. When anyone wishes me a Merry Christmas, I get my point across firmly but NICELY by smiling sweetly & responding “Thank you! I certainly plan on having a happy Chanukah & a merry Christmas (note: Anyone I know who is Jewish knows enough to wish me a happy Chanukah)to you too!” One thought to leave you with, you inbred, trailer trash: When was the last time you heard any Jew insisting that all Chrsitian religious symbols be banned & ONLY Jewish ones should be displayed? That’s right-try NEVER.

By Boggle

December 13, 2006 02:43 PM | Link to this

Funny, because Madison also helped write this bit of Virginia legislation:

Be it therefore enacted by the General Assembly, That no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in nowise [sic] diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities”.

What you fundies don’t understand is that ideas of Christianity and God during the eighteenth century are not those espoused by fundamentalist evangelicals today.

As has already been pointed out more than once, the FF’s were men of the Enlightenment, when people sought reason over superstition and natural explanations over supernatural. They were suspicious of organized religion and the power and potential for abuse it held over the common man.

When Jefferson or Madison talked about God, it was the supremely rational and logical God of the Deists, not the overly sentimental and limited God of the modern fundamentalist.

Anyone who reads their writings with any degree of context understands that their intent was to create a secular government. They even plainly stated such, more than once. It is only the revisionist nonsense of political fundamentalism that he tried to create this utterly false belief that we were founded as a religious nation.

By ICEMAN

December 13, 2006 02:47 PM | Link to this

EnoughSAID,

Jesus died for whosoever believed that God gave his only begotten Son, John 3:16. Muslims, Jews, etc, do not believe.Of course he didn’t complain about things like this, but we have to though. Its not about trees, carol or any of that materialistic stuff, but if we allow you to attack things associated with him, you’ll eventually attack him or his people:Christians. Those who have accepted him and his purpose for being here, not everyone else.

By harold

December 13, 2006 02:47 PM | Link to this

“Now can you imagine a value system so fragile, so ungrounded, that a mere sign would cause it to crumble, thereby possibly influencing one’s vote minutes later?”

Yo Woot, how would you like voting in an abortion clinic that was closed for the day and instead set up for voting? Eh? How’s them apples sound?

If your Christmas is threatened, it is because your faith is weak. Do you really need TV and advertisements to reinforce your Jesus worship? Isn’t your Sunday dose of propaganda enough? If it isn’t, how about Wednesday supper too?

By Boggle

December 13, 2006 02:48 PM | Link to this

No one was offended or divided, until cerebrum challenged secularists like you began to allow the media to tell you how to think.

Not only do you need to work on your metaphorical insults, Icey, but you need to work on your critical thinking.

A) You’re right, partially. No one was offended until Christian fundamentalist groups pitched a fit.

B) The only media outlets playing this up as a problem are right-wing media outlets. Who is telling whom what to think?

C) Again, no one is attacking “Merry Christmas”. Hysterical idiots like you are attacking people for saying “Happy Holidays”.

Geeze, you people get so logically twisted up in your own reasoning somersaults that you don’t even remember who fired the first shots.

By ICEMAN

December 13, 2006 02:51 PM | Link to this

Boggled,

There you go with that title again. Would it make you feel better if we just stop saying we’re fundamentalists? That word seems to govern your entire thought process.

By Corrections

December 13, 2006 02:54 PM | Link to this

Rock Solid @2:23,

Here are a couple more James Madison quotes for you:

“Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”

“Besides the danger of a direct mixture of religion and civil government, there is an evil which ought to be guarded against in the indefinite accumulation of property from the capacity of holding it in perpetuity by ecclesiastical corporations. The establishment of the chaplainship in Congress is a palpable violation of equal rights as well as of Constitutional principles. The danger of silent accumulations and encroachments by ecclesiastical bodies has not sufficiently engaged attention in the U.S.”

By harold

December 13, 2006 02:58 PM | Link to this

The whole “happy holidays” thing is the fault of the christians anyway. they hijacked solstice and made christmas out of it. if they had picked a more unique time of year to celebrate jesus’ “birth” instead of hijacking other folks’ holidays, they would not have to suffer “happy holidays”

nobody says “happy holidays” at thanksgiving now do they? no! because the thanksgiving inventer picked a unique time of year where there were no other holidays.

so if you hijacking christians cant stand “happy holidays” then just move christmas!

dec 25 is not really jesuses REAL birthday anyhow, so it doesn’t matter at all!

By ICEMAN

December 13, 2006 03:00 PM | Link to this

Boggled,

I don’t mind saying “Happy Holidays”.I usually say it. I don’t know any Christians that don’t like saying “Happy Holidays”. Its not saying “HH” that’s bothering us, its your attempt to eliminate “Merry Christmas”. During the time when no one was offended was the time we said “Merry Christmas”, which is what we’ve been saying since we’ve been here. Take a look at all of the network programs throughout history, Frosty,Rudolph,etc. What are they saying Boggled? “Merry Christmas”! The offense started when secularists took over the media and decided they didn’t want any more of that!

By Steve

December 13, 2006 03:05 PM | Link to this

Buy Danish, Howard and @@ —

You each refer to those who disagree with you as “leftists”.

Same question for you as for JbmLaw at 12:51? Do you seek “forcible suppression of the opposition”?

By Boggle

December 13, 2006 03:05 PM | Link to this

There you go with that title again. Would it make you feel better if we just stop saying we’re fundamentalists? That word seems to govern your entire thought process.

It’s not a title, oh ye of the frozen brain, it’s a description of a particular type of religious philosophy. You could call yourself Googly-eyed Snake Handlers for all I care, and it wouldn’t change the underlying rigidity of your religious leanings.

I’m sure you would be surprised to discover that there are many, many religious people who aren’t fundamentalists and who don’t feel the way you apparently do. The problem is, you and people like you are doing your level best to eliminate them all.

The only difference between you and islamic fundamentalists is that they use guns and explosives in their quest to eliminate all conflicting thought. You and your kind use fear tactics, half-truths and the political system to attack those even slightly different from you.

You are a sad, sad little man.

By Political Deckhead

December 13, 2006 03:09 PM | Link to this

After reading Getalife’s last comment, I think it should be illegal for any third trimester expectant mother to visit Bill Clinton while he’s holding an unlit cigar.

By jbmlaw

December 13, 2006 03:10 PM | Link to this

Dear Steve @ 12:51, you ask a fair question. I respectfully reject your core argument, that “leftist” means “enemy of the state” or any similar such foolishness. This blog is called “Thinking Right” – a leftist is simply one opposing Jim’s perspective, which by any measure is a mainstream conservatism. Careful readers appreciate that, while I respect and agree with most that Jim writes, I have a different way of looking at many issues. I do not use the term “liberal” for your team, mostly because I see little of a classically-liberal heart or mind in the leftist bloggers, and secondarily as that has become the demonized “L” word in our society.

Other long term readers know I deconstructed the definition of “fascist” – the one who holds the fasces, the traditionally symbol of ancient Rome. Although you may perceive Mediterranean features in my person, my family is all Scotch-Irish and English; I cannot honestly affirm kinship with our Italian brothers. I note that all WW2 Fascists and Nazis were socialists, people who believe government should micromanage private enterprise. I have difficulty distinguishing their economic theories from those of our American Democrats. Whatever you say of me, you will not hear me advocate for government participation in private enterprise decision-making, neither by regulation nor by subsidy. All of that said, if you are most comfortable calling me a Fascist, have at it.

By The72John

December 13, 2006 03:11 PM | Link to this

I don’t know any Christians that don’t like saying “Happy Holidays”. Its not saying “HH” that’s bothering us, its your attempt to eliminate “Merry Christmas”.

Icey, are you really such an idiot? I say “Merry Christmas” all the time, you tool…I’m an Episcopalean.

Let’s explain this to you simply…no one is trying to eliminate Merry Christmas…anywhere…big companies used Happy Holidays in an attempt to acknowledge all the holidays that occur around this time of year…The American Family Association had a fit and started boycotts against stores that said “Happy Holidays” instead of “Merry Christmas”.

You are an ignoramous, sir. A complete bloody idiot.

By DebbieDoRight

December 13, 2006 03:13 PM | Link to this

Danish Cow: I’m going to try to break this down for you in terms so simplistic even the little bity atoms on your tiny brain can understand it….

Most historians and biographers were not present in the room with the people they choose to write about and most books are written decades if not centuries later

those books are called historical FICTION — (http://teacher.scholastic.com/lessonrepro/lessonplans/instructor/social1.htm)

— history books based in fact come from the writings, personal letters/correspondences, personal papers from friends and family etc. of the historical figure that the historian is writing about. Anything from diaries and photographs to medical/scientific journal articles or even textbooks — are used. Primary sources such as the ones listed will not normally interpret or analyze the events — they simply record or document the event. Secondary sources are books and articles that discuss, analyze, interpret, synthesize and review primary sources. Tertiary sources are usually textbooks or review articles that collate and organize information and data from secondary sources.

You have no problem peddling your total falsehood that this country was founded on “multi-culturalism”

I have come to the conclusion that not only are you a stoopid, vapid, cow — but you are also a literally minded sheep. i have no time to yet again explain to you how “multicultural” america really is no matter WHO founded the declaration of independence. when they founded the document there were 13 colonies with people from as far away as Holland residing in them. http://americanhistory.about.com/od/colonialamerica/Colonial_America.htm

Until very recently, we were a melting pot, not a bunch of warring ethnic and gender groups who celebrate their “differences”

people like YOU cow, make it this way. you just LOVE to point out anything and everything that you can find that debases, dehumanizes and down right LIES about blacks, hispanics, and any “other” brown/tan/olive or non white race in america. it gives u unconceivable joy. however, you never point out anything GOOD in any of your posts, why that would be darn near un REPUBLICAN of you would it?

Over and out

in more ways than one danish cow. in more ways than one.

PS: i hope all the above information didn’t cause your tiny head to explode because of all the FACTS. i know how much you fear those…..

By scubber

December 13, 2006 03:14 PM | Link to this

God is dead. But it still sells. Some still believe in ancient myths of angels dipped in blood and the heaven/hell metaphor for good v. bad parallels, but many prefer to buy into the myth for a little magic and festivity.

If you wear a pair of cargo trousers, are you to be associated as a soldier or with law enforcement? No, you like the look and don it because it strays from the norm of fashion towards a persona of rugged, authoritarian juxtaposed with casual, realxed fit comfort clothing.

If I buy my wife and iPod and wrap it as a present to give her on December 25th in front of a decorated tree am I a christian. No. The same as I am not a sultan when I dine at Imperial Fez with my wife atop plush pillows eating goat and watching belly dancers perform.

I work in advertising and know first hand we do not sell exclusively to one group. We target specific groups. Women, DIY’ers, children, soldiers, etc. If you practice exclusivity in merchandising or advertising, you end up with static sales from a narrow spectrum of consumers and poison any chance of creating synergy amongst all possible types of consumers to boost overall sales and become a sales giant.

The way to best resolve issues such as that in Seattle, WA is to create synergy with all views of religion. Include all icons and glyphs of religious types as a whole to embrace community and fellowship amongst all persons. That way christians get their representation, buddhists theirs, jews, muslims and so on. I am not affiliated with any religious worship but I think I would love to see that happen.

We see recently how polarized beliefs are hurting our community, when laws to say that english is the official language that may be spoken, alcohol cannot be sold on Sunday so christians can observe their deities, and Jimmy Carter is chided for basically speaking the truth. Instead of feeling assaulted by removal of christian tag words from the holidays, feel good that now multiple persons can enjoy this season as one.

By Rock Solid

December 13, 2006 03:14 PM | Link to this

Southern Democrat,

Are you wearing shackles I’ve put on you, or are you free to mouth off about how intellectually crippling you think religion is thereby insulting the intellect of Christians.

We love it when the secularists do that. Insult believers. That’s 86%? of the American population who believe in a deity, a supreme being.

Diogenes,

When is it going to start? Christians fund worthwhile causes all over the world. But once the guidebook is destroyed through secular activism, it will diminish considerably. No guide, no direction for good.

You people have a great day and Merry Christmas.

By @@

December 13, 2006 03:14 PM | Link to this

Jim Wooten has played a chrismas joke on the trolls who blog here. Look how idiotic the debate has turned. Good one, Jim! That’s one for you. You got us good that time. Is our face red or what. We’ve got our conclusions right here in our premise, just as you have commanded oh hoary journalistic king of the netherblogs.

It’s amazing how trolls fall for the same gags over and over and over.

By jbmlaw

December 13, 2006 03:17 PM | Link to this

Dear Harold @ 2:47, I would be pleased to vote in an abortion clinic that shut down for the day. Perhaps 20 children would survive, who might not with “business as usual.”

By jbmlaw

December 13, 2006 03:26 PM | Link to this

Dear Steve @ 12:51, I am unfamiliar with your prior writing on the blog. I neglected to greet you appropriately. Welcome, even in opposition.

By jbmlaw

December 13, 2006 03:28 PM | Link to this

Dear Steve @ 3:05, you misperceive my intentions. Beyond waterboarding and similar appropriate tortures, I rarely urge anything too harsh for my leftist friends, as there is nothing too harsh for them.

By jbmlaw

December 13, 2006 03:37 PM | Link to this

Dear Steve @ 3:05, more seriously, you selectively misquote me; please refer back to my opening post this morning, on how I consistently label those in opposition. Your are my “leftist friends” not “the scum of the earth who ought to be destroyed.” Would that our leftist friends used such gentle language!

By Southern Democrat

December 13, 2006 03:40 PM | Link to this

Rock Solid,

I attend Mass every Sunday. I was a high school English teacher. I am now a lawyer. I understand what separation of church and state means and why it was created by our Deist Founding Fathers. I am certainly not attacking Christianity nor am I attacking the United States. I am simply correcting a very egregious mischaracterization you made of James Madison’s views on this topic that, with a little research, would not have been made. So far, the only thing you have proven to be Rock Solid is your head, not your faith.

By Van

December 13, 2006 03:46 PM | Link to this

scubber,

Like all secular progressives, you confuse the day, one selected to remember the birth of Christ, with the secular Christmas, the federal holiday.

If you have no deity, that is your choice, the rest of mankind does worship a deity or deities, how does it feel to be outside the mainstream and a minority of non believers.

Keep Christmas your way, but do not infringe on the way I keep mine.

By Johnson

December 13, 2006 03:47 PM | Link to this

PLEASE, PLEASE, don’t call it a WAR ON CHRISTMAS or Bush will order troops to the border to protect the christians right to force their beliefs on everyone.

By jbmlaw

December 13, 2006 03:49 PM | Link to this

Dear Steve @ various times, it crosses my mind that you have a serious PR problem. No matter what term we use to collectivize the collectivists, your views are so repugnant to so many that any term will evolve into an epithet in short order.

There was a time that “liberal” described the highest-minded advocates for freedom from the government; today of course there is nothing so “evil” as being a contemporary “L” word. The problem is your views. You have to clean up your notions of the appropriate role for government, and until you do, any term you use to describe yourself will become “hateful.”

By Boggle

December 13, 2006 03:50 PM | Link to this

We love it when the secularists do that. Insult believers. That’s 86%? of the American population who believe in a deity, a supreme being.

And yet, most “secularists” are also religious. We just don’t believe in mixing religion and government.

It’s much easier, I suppose, to assume that the large percentage of Americans who believe in some form of deity are as equally desirous of control over everyone’s lives as the evangelical Religious Right, but fortunately, it isn’t true.

How sad for you that you are so insecure in your religion that you feel the need to mandate its belief. I would think you would be certain enough of its value that such methods wouldn’t be needed.

By jbmlaw

December 13, 2006 03:52 PM | Link to this

And dear Steve, the late post by my friend Southern reminds me that we have some civil exchange on the blog. There is no writer on this blog whom I admire more than Southern, although he and I are pretty frank in our exchanges.

By DebbieDoRight

December 13, 2006 03:54 PM | Link to this

to danish cow: to clarify my reasoning for this response (before you retailiate):

From Danish Cow: Most historians and biographers were not present in the room with the people they choose to write about and most books are written decades if not centuries later.

you were objecting to my saying that you weren’t in the room with carter and castro so you couldn’t possibly know what was or wasn’t said. your inference was that books with “supposed” dialogue from the historic figure are written all the time by “historians” and they don’t know what was said to whom.

i responded with: those books are called historical FICTION —

http://teacher.scholastic.com/lessonrepro/lessonplans/instructor/social1

By Steve

December 13, 2006 04:05 PM | Link to this

JbmLaw,

Thank you for responding to my post. However, you should know that I am not on a “team”, and my positions on political issues do not tend to lean in the direction that you assume (not that it would relevant if they did). Your comments in this regard were presumptuous.

In the wake of Augusto Pinochet’s death, I’ve come across several stories about his reign of fear and intimidation and his relationship to Operation Condor — a covert program, assisted by the CIA, which resulted in the murder and incarceration of hundreds of thousands of “leftists” (so-called). As you know, this word was most commonly used during the last century to describe the Soviets and their approach to governing. With the fall of the Soviet empire, many have begun to apply this loaded word to their fellow Americans - whether they are liberals, Democrats, environmentalists, or even everyday voters who disagree about the best way forward in Iraq or about the ethics regarding stem cell research. This word has an undertone that suggests radicalism punishable by disappearance, torture, imprisonment and/or death. My sense is that most who use this word are speaking in a code that suggests “forcible suppression of the opposition”.

You spent a lot of time in your reply explaining the “classical definition” of particular words (although many have argued about whether Jim Wooten’s opinions fall under the classic definition of “conservatism”). As you know, over the course of time, words can take on new meanings that are unconstrained by their classical definitions. “Leftist” and “fascist” are two examples.

Perhaps I missed it, but in your response, I did not see an answer to my fundamental question. When it comes to public policy, do seek or condone forcible suppression of the opposition?

By DebbieDoRight

December 13, 2006 04:08 PM | Link to this

PLEASE, PLEASE, don’t call it a WAR ON CHRISTMAS or Bush will order troops to the border to protect the christians right to force their beliefs on everyone

LMAO!!!!

By JK

December 13, 2006 04:10 PM | Link to this

Wah, wah, wah! Please. This whole “Holiday” season is driven by marketing and advertising personnel trying to move merchandise of every conceivable kind through the stores before year’s end. It requires that I have to take vacation days from work to do anything BUT relax. Wow… Can I enjoy a little traditional music at church? Do I have TIME? First I have to freaking DECORATE everything! Then there’s the traffic, the shopping, bad boss’ parties, and mailing, and baking. “Merry Stand In Line A Lot!” is more appropos. Would it come without boxes? Would it come with out bags? Would it come with out packages, credit cards, or tags?

Oh, good grief, I am over it already! Pour yourself a Scotch and do your whining at home! Humbug!

By 911

December 13, 2006 04:12 PM | Link to this

let me get this right,america was founded by Christians & christain princepals. Are these the same christians who made slavery legal,owned slaves,lynched blacks,killed and raped the indians,denied women rights,started the kkk?

By sbw

December 13, 2006 04:13 PM | Link to this

I TOTALLY agree with Lou Dobbs who said: “Merry Christmas!…It’s what most of us say in this country come this time of year. It’s about who we are, where we are and where we’ve been. And all the namby-pamby, little sensitive darlings among us who can’t handle this verbal assault on their delicate senses should immediately begin seeking emergency psychiatric care.”

By Dusty

December 13, 2006 04:25 PM | Link to this

Oh my,

Christmas is the celebration of a new gift of love and redemption. It is offered to all but forced on no one. So I wish all of you a merry Christmas. May you feel the peace and joy of this time.

By JK

December 13, 2006 04:32 PM | Link to this

namby-pamby, little sensitive darlings among us who can’t handle this verbal assault on their delicate senses should immediately begin seeking emergency psychiatric care

sbw, ditto for those who are upset or offended when someone says, “happy holidays,” or “season’s greetings,” or “happy hannukah” instead of “merry freaking christmas.”

Dear Santa, bring me that $450 bottle of MacCallan 30, or get the heck out of my chimney, you voyeuristsic freak! Elvis and I are busy down here.

By Is Everyone on Crazy Pills?

December 13, 2006 04:50 PM | Link to this

sbw, ditto for those who are upset or offended when someone says, “happy holidays,” or “season’s greetings,” or “happy hannukah” instead of “merry freaking christmas.”

Exactly! Is there someone out there who’s been offended by “Merry Christmas”? I doubt it, but I’ve SEEN people get upset when someone said “Happy Holidays”. Like, ANGRY upset.

I even saw a woman last year SHOUT “MERRY CHRISTMAS” into a woman’s face and storm out of a store…

By Diogenes

December 13, 2006 04:50 PM | Link to this

Jim,

Unless someone starts a good scrap here in the last hour, I don’t think your total number of blogs will pass yesterday’s. Just goes to show you that people’s primary political concern is what effect it will have on their pocket books.

By Jim Wooten

December 13, 2006 05:06 PM | Link to this

Diogenes, you’re right on the blog count. But my spirits are so broken this Christmas holiday season by news that the name-the-panda blog drew 42,000 votes that I’m no longer counting. Thinking Right is not in the game.

By harold

December 13, 2006 05:13 PM | Link to this

Sorry, jbmlaw, voting at the abortion clinic would not save any babies. Like most good restaurants, most good abortion clinics are closed on Mondays and Tuesdays because, hey, abortionists and their hired help need a weekend too!!!!

By Cherish

December 13, 2006 05:20 PM | Link to this

Children! It’s Christmas!

Now stop hitting each other and quit yelling and fighting or else you’re not getting anything for Christmas!

NOW SHUT UP! IT HAS BEEN AND ALWAYS WILL BE CHRISTMAS!

By DebbieDoRight

December 13, 2006 05:31 PM | Link to this

HAPPY HOLIDAYS EVERYONE!!!!

By Buy Danish

December 13, 2006 05:34 PM | Link to this

DebbieCrackPot,

Regarding your shockingly ignorant 3:13 - You’re kidding me, right? It’s mind-numbing that you use the kidz publisher Scholastic as a source for your err, scholarship - to a link which is broken so I don’t know what historic marvels you were planning on revealing to me.

Surely you understand the difference between “Historical fiction” like Dicken’s A Tale of Two Cities and Michener’s Hawaii and “non-fiction history” like Tuchman’s A Distant Mirror or biographies like Lincoln by David Herbert Donald.

Of course I can understand why you’re confused since Jimmy Carter has written a book that is supposed to be “non-fiction” but purportedly relates fictional accounts, just as James Frey’s A Million Little Pieces was marketed as a non-fiction Memoir, but had fictitious elements which were only revealed later.

As for your hilarious claim that the original colonies were “multicultural”, you obviously do not even know what “Multicultural” means - indeed the term was not even invented until the 1970s.

The original colonies were settled by Europeans, primarily Brits (and yes, with Dutch settlers in “New Amsterdam” and “New Jersey”). What this means is that America’s roots are in Western European culture - Western Europe’s “Englightenment” and Christianity - which at the time of our founding was overwhelmingly Protestant.

Our philosophical roots are not in Asian “Oriental” culture, the Ottoman Empire’s Islamic culture, Mayan culture, or Navaho culture - whatever you fantasize it to be.

Your claims that I just LOVE to point out anything and everything that you can find that debases, dehumanizes and down right LIES about blacks, hispanics, and any “other” brown/tan/olive or non white race in america is an entirely false and slanderous statement, based on nothing but your own Leftist bigotry.

Indeed, I would much prefer that race (or gender) not even be an issue and that Americans get their identity as assimilated Americans, but people like you on the Left are intent on dividing us into sub-category upon sub-category with nothing but loathing for our Country’s heritage.

By @@

December 13, 2006 05:40 PM | Link to this

Oh, shut up, bd.

By Barry Palevitz

December 13, 2006 06:01 PM | Link to this

It’s ironic that Wooten went thumbing through the store ads for signs that the Christmas spirit is waning. How telling. If he wants to know the REAL scandal, it’s not ‘happy holidays’ but the crass commercialization of Christmas. As Fox News decries taking Christmas out of the holidays, it blatantly run commercials that encourage people to buy, buy, buy. The same is true for every other media outlet. That’s the real bah humbug. Find another whine, Mr. Wooten.

By Interested Observer

December 14, 2006 09:30 AM | Link to this

Stoking the rage of “offended” traditionalists really got legs under it for the first time last year, when Fox News’s John Gibson happened to be peddling a new book titled “The War On Christmas.” Coincidence? Maybe the reason the right-wingers are taking up the cause again is that the paperback version is coming out.

Jim, this has much more to do with lining a Fox News anchor’s pockets than with actually doing anything to protect the sanctity of the holiday.

By Najeh Davenpoop

December 14, 2006 09:44 AM | Link to this

I’m sorry, but of all the ridiculous things to complain about this is by far the worst. Christians comprise a decisive majority of this country’s theist people. How exactly is Christmas threatened when every December, all you see everywhere are Christmas lights, Christmas trees, Christmas wreaths, the Nativity scene here or there, and of course Christmas sales? Anyone who is not living under a rock knows exactly what holiday most people celebrate this time of year. If a few minorities call it by a secular name I don’t see how it takes away from the significance of the holiday.

I’m not Christian, but I have no problem with people wishing me a merry Christmas or advertising Christmas sales, because obviously Christmas is the overwhelmingly popular holiday of the season and there’s nothing wrong with that. Just don’t use that as an opportunity to try to force your religion on me, like so many Christians are prone to doing.