Thinking Right

By holdingAJCaccountable

November 25, 2006 04:02 PM | Link to this

If the same educrats who claim to be so concerned “for the children” spent even 1/100 the effort at restoring discipline as they did trying to get activist judges to more money in their pockets, we’d have real education reform. All the money in the world isn’t going to help public education until school systems stop living in mortal fear of being sued for sending Junior to timeout. If conservatives really want to do something to fix education, try reintroducing the concepts of “rule of law” and “personal responsibility” back into the school system. Of course to do that, consevatives are going to have to relax their stand on stem cell research; the only way to get educrats to go along with discipline is to implant stem cells that will grow into backbones. Sonny are you listening? Stop spending funds and instead start witholding funds from school systems until they get serious about discipline. Do that, and educrats long dormant backbones might even regenerate on their own (you’ll still have to implant one in Kathy Cox, as you know she’ll be-no pun intended-fundamentally opposed to evolving a backbone).

By Mallory

November 25, 2006 04:41 PM | Link to this

J.Wooten, If the courts are going to mandate school finance reform, they better ante up. Many a local politician will be voted out when property taxes are increased to pay for it.

What courts can’t do is ensure that the money is spent effectively, and it rarely is by government.

Courts can’t make a district improve its teacher training, they can’t improve its recruitment efforts, or eliminate waste and mismanagement in the central office.

Many judges assume that extra funding alone will result in higher achievement. But giving more money to a system rife with patronage, corruption, and mediocrity is unlikely to stimulate any worthwhile change.

Money can improve achievement only if it’s used well. And therein lies the problem.

A good education begins in the home and should never be outsourced to some judge who probably has his kids in private school.

Education is one of the many government services that should be privatized in my opinion. Make it competitive and the kids will benefit.

By Mallory's wrong

November 25, 2006 05:49 PM | Link to this

Mallory, dude…. if privatization works so well then why are the charter school performing so miserably in comparison to public schools. Also, adjusting to socioeconomics, why do private schools do no better than public schools?

Excellent educations exist in public schools, I’m not about to waste my money on a private school that may or may not be better than public. I say this as a product of a pretty posh private school. My wife went to public school and got a much better education than I did.

I have nothing against private schools. I enjoyed them thouroughly. They just aren’t necessarily better than public.

As for the funding lawsuit. I don’t want to hear those rural counties whine until they max out their millage rates. The problems in the rural counties usually stem from county leaders who have their kids in private school and don’t want their mansions’ property taxes to rise so they keep the millage as low as possible. They could care less about education of “the masses.”

By I Voted For The War Before I Cut And Run From It

November 25, 2006 06:09 PM | Link to this

By Mallory’s wrong November 25, 2006 05:49 PM Mallory, dude…. if privatization works so well then why are the charter school performing so miserably in comparison to public schools.

In the limited amount of time I researched, I found this:

Students who attend a private school through a voucher program experience greater gains in math and reading than do their public school counterparts.

A common sense disqualifier and one I know for a fact to be true is that the curriculum in private schools is much more challenging and probably produces lower scores on average.

I mean how challenging is the public school major of proper condom usage studies?

By Mid-South Philosopher

November 26, 2006 08:04 AM | Link to this

Good morning, Jim.

The financing of education in Georgia, as well as in 48 of the other 49 states (Hawaii is the exception) is inherently unequal. Georgia, via the General Assembly (God help us) appropriates a certain amount for the education of each student and that amount is sent to each local school system. At that level, local school boards (the most of which have the power of local taxation) can add to that amount via local property taxes. As a consequence, in the two school systems mentioned, Atlanta Public Schools adds $7691.19 to the budget for each student, while Gwinnett adds only $3394.02 of local dollars for each of its students. Thus, we have the disparity between $11200.00 per Atlanta student as opposed to $7200.00 for each in Gwinnett.

Jim, you are right that the courts should not be involved in this matter. This is a legislative decision, and, if we could find some legislators, smart enough to pass the 8th Grade CRCT, they might be able to deal with it!

Inasmuch as the state seems to have evolved as having the principal responsibility for providing the machinery of education in American society, Georgia should follow the example of Hawaii by establishing a statewide school system and totally funding public schools. An additional penny or two on the sales tax should do the trick. Then everyone would pay.

Locals boards of educations should have the responsibility only of approving dress codes (oh, do they still have those in schools?) and ratifying weekly lunchroom menu. Better yet, do away with archaic local boards of education and streamline the educational bureaucracy. After all, local school boards really don’t have much power to hear them tell it. Every time a citizen approaches local authorities about a concern, he or she is more often than not told that “it’s a state rule or mandate; we can’t do anything about it!”

We are not going to do away with local boards of education, of course. We are steeped in the myth of “local control,” and, Kathy Cox would no longer have that excuse when she doesn’t want to deal with a difficult problem. Besides, too many little fiefdoms exist and too many local, petty politicians have to hold an office and pretend they are of more value to society than they are in the role of consumers of Charmin toilet tissue.

By I Voted For The War Before I Cut And Run From It

November 26, 2006 08:12 AM | Link to this

Pelosi has made clear that she does not want to pick Rep. Jane Harman, the committee’s ranking Democrat but an adversary of Pelosi in California politics. As speaker, Pelosi has complete power to name a chairman. But her advisers tell her that Republicans will have a field day if she selects Hastings, who was impeached by Congress as a federal judge on bribery charges. The committee’s third-ranking Democrat, the low-profile Rep. Silvestre Reyes of Texas, would be a compromise.

1) What happened to the ousting of the “culture of corruption?” Were democrats talking about bringing in their choice of corrupt people?

2) What the F has she got against Homegirl Harman, shouldn’t she be trying to help her own freaking state?? Are these democrats simply unable to get along with anyone, even a natural ally?

3) Who’s the freaking boss here?

Merry Christmas!

Front Page of the Atlanta Urinal:

Iraq insurgency now self-sustaining, U.S. report shows- It says that between $25 million and $100 million of the total comes from oil smuggling and other criminal activity involving the state-owned oil industry that is aided by “corrupt and complicit” Iraqi government officials.

In their fit of anti American anti war hysteria they just deep sixed the #1 war theory for over 100 million pinkos.

If Bad Bush is stealing all the oil, Cynthia Tucker, how pray tell are the insurgents smuggling it?

So tell us again, why’d we go to war??

Merry Christmas!

Reader’s Quote, opinion page of the Atlanta Urinal:

“The millions of turkeys abused and slaughtered in the United States each year have nothing to be thankful for.”

So there you have it, the AJC and it’s pinko readership speaking on behalf of their intellectual equals, the turkey.

Merry Christmas!

Unreal, Queen Pinko:

Dems, use your power to push birth control- While the United States has about 53 births per 1,000 teenagers, {{{{a rate worse}}}}} than India’s and Rwanda’s, Great Britain has about 20 babies per 1,000 adolescents. Germany and Norway have around 11; Finland, eight; Sweden and Denmark, seven; the Netherlands, five. The difference? Western Europe has little of the hypermoralism that subverts rationale discourse about sex, so that contraceptives are advertised, displayed, dispensed and widely used.

Worse???

I hate to break the news to you filthy socialists but “teenage” births also include eight {{{{teen}}}}} and nine {{{{{teen}}}} year old mothers and in the US are most likely to be by choice.

It’s a sure sign that America has a healthy population that is replacing itself, which the pinkos loathe the very thought of.

They want all of the rest of you dead and gone; no more pollution, no more deforestation, no more oil addicts, just the libs and their intellectual equals the turkey free to fly their Gulfstream jets all around with out restriction.

Look at this monster liberal, this pervert Tucker shaking Germany at us like some insane depraved school marm, Germany is on the outs as a CIVILIZATION because they adopted the very same liberalism that Tucker now scolds us with. They’re all prim and proper metrosexuals or flaming f-ags, family haters, child loathing freaks who are fixing to become Muslims whether they like it or not.

I can’t understand what the motivation is with this degenerate Tucker, read this column, note all the mindless hysteria “barefoot and pregnant” “demeaning to women” “sexual oppression.” Is this person actually angry that our children aren’t engaged in some national orgy with each other at this very moment?

WTF?

Merry Christmas!

By Mallory

November 26, 2006 08:19 AM | Link to this

Mr. or Ms. Wrong, Are you sure you went to private school? Show me where I said anything that was wrong. The courts are limited in what they can do, and shouldn’t be involved in education at all.

I wasn’t talking about charter schools. I’m talking about established private schools. I Voted For The War is correct. Their academic requirements are set at a higher standard than in public school.

In public school dumb is acceptable by peers and staff. In private school dumb is unacceptable by both.

When did a 2200 sq. ft. home become a mansion?

Don’t worry about your little masses. The county government isn’t going to let me off the hook on paying for their education. As much as you may hate it, I can pay for yours to go to public school and pay for mine to go to private school.

How did your last lawsuit go? I’ll bet the lawyer walked away with the bulk of the money. He probably went to private school.

By I Voted for the War Even Though I'm a Poof

November 26, 2006 08:26 AM | Link to this

I am gayer than Elton John’s chihuahua.

And even more scared.

By I Voted for the War Even Though I'm a Poof

November 26, 2006 08:28 AM | Link to this

I am gayer than Bi Danish’s crewcut and hairy armpits.

But I’m not butch, I’m femme.

And a coward.

By I Voted for the War Even Though I'm a Poof

November 26, 2006 08:32 AM | Link to this

The good thing is I’ll never have children.

My long line of cowards stops with me.

By Redneck Convert

November 26, 2006 08:34 AM | Link to this

I say get rid of the public schools past 5th grade. I quit in the 5th grade and it never hurt me none. All that happens when people go beyond that is they turn into a bunch of pinhead libruls. Besides, people don’t need to learn to spell or use them funny marks. Just look at TFTT. He can’t spell a lick, but he Thinks Right. This proves you don’t need to do nothing except maybe go to trade school in Manchester or some such place. Now he upholds our fine southern heritege of keeping Those People from getting too uppity.

The courts have no business telling us how much to spend for the schools. They should spend their time handing down the death penalty and putting people in the lock-up. Use the taxes used for schools to build more prisons and have same-day trials for the shiftless.

The libruls accuse Georgia of being next to last in learning. Well, they know how to vote for fine people like Sonny and Casey. They don’t need to learn no more.

By Political Foreskin

November 26, 2006 09:01 AM | Link to this

The source of funding for the three Rs are the 2 Ls and a J: Legislature, lotto, and Judiciary.

The judiciary should only be used for appointing unelected presidents, like in China, where they cant pronounce the two Ls (or the J).

Judges and the lotto officials have achieved a parity never before seen outside of foxhole-sharing, theo-polarized GIs.

Funding for Education is not being legislated judiciously, yet the judiciary is learning how to legislate funding. (yogi berra)

What’s next? The legislature becoming moralists and evangelists?… …….d’oh!

By Euripides

November 26, 2006 09:21 AM | Link to this

Funding for learning is not being judiciously legislated, yet the judiciary is learning how to legislate funding. (Euripides, after he saw the play, Eumenides).

Post script: during the play, euripides tore his robe sushing hecklers. He went to the tailor and handed him the torn garment. the tailor looked up and asked, “Euripides?” to which Euripides replied, “Yes, so Eumenides”.

By I Voted For The War Before I Cut And Run From It

November 26, 2006 09:23 AM | Link to this

Conservative contributions to the debate:

By Mallory November 26, 2006 08:19 AM Mr. or Ms. Wrong, Are you sure you went to private school? Show me where I said anything that was wrong. The courts are limited in what they can do, and shouldn’t be involved in education at all.

And then you have the liberals:

By I Voted for the War Even Though I’m a Poof November 26, 2006 08:26 AM I am gayer than Elton John’s chihuahua. And even more scared.

I can’t add much to that, it says it all, you pinkos do have your standards.

I will admit, however, I had no idea Elton John had a chihuahua, it does figure though.

First thing I ever learned from a lib!

By getalife

November 26, 2006 09:26 AM | Link to this

OIL CONSPIRACY:

AP: Firms deliberately cut back on oil production The analysis, based on data from the U.S. Energy Information Administration, indicates that the industry slacked off supplying oil and gasoline during the prolonged price boom between early 1999 and last summer.

Al-Sadr takes over Iraqi TV station, issues call to arms:

Followers of the militant Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr took over state-run television Saturday to denounce the Iraqi government, label Sunnis “terrorists” and issue what appeared to many viewers as a call to arms.

My goodness, what a mess.

By Diogenes

November 26, 2006 09:55 AM | Link to this

Jim,

We agree on something for a change. Judges should not attempt to legislate. In fact, I’ll go farther than that: I am greatly distressed at how political the appointment of judges has become. I can understand that every President wants to leave as his legacy a Supreme Court which will support his political view years into the future. That would only be human nature. On the other hand, we the people deserve the best interpretation of the laws without political bias. The lack of bias in the courts appears to have been the intention of the Framers of the Constitution, and I would like to see a return to that ideal. That is what would be fair to us the people. The President should appoint to the bench those individuals who have shown a history of excellence in interpreting the law; that’s at all levels. Politics have no place in the courts, but I know that’s a radical notion when the nation is so polarized over some fundamental issues and so much is at stake politically over the interpretation of the laws.

On the other hand, if legislatures fail in their obligations, the courts need to direct them to do their business properly (much like this disgusting Fulton County Jail situation). The finance of education is still a legislative activity. The inequities in finance in Georgia are manifestly unfair. On the other hand, Georgia schools seem not to benefit from additional funding. We have poor schools in Georgia and that will remain true until we radically change the objectives and expectations that we the people have of them. Money is not the issue; desired results are. Judges can direct us to change those objectives and expectations, but they should not legislate specific funding goals.

By Curious Observer

November 26, 2006 10:03 AM | Link to this

The unstated premise of Wooten’s specious argument is that local and state entities will scrupulously adhere to constitutional requirements. We all know they do not—witness poll taxes, racial segregation, and a thousand other inequitable actions.

Something as basic to the social structure as educational funding needs to have the courts as arbiters. As much as Wooten, jbmlaw, TFTT, and other fascists on this blog like to argue that funding levels have nothing to do with the quality of schooling, it seems fundamental that gross disparities in state and local funding of schools will have an effect on equal opportunity for the youngest citizens. It is precisely for this reason that court intervention is necessary to correct unconstitutional actions.

The irrelevant babbling of the right about school vouchers is yet another effort to shift the argument. The simple truth is that Georgia has no regard or respect for education, and that attitude translates to school funding practices. We treat our teachers like plantation slaves, refusing even to fund basic supplies, and yet we expect our teachers to turn the already anti-intellectual, prejudiced little knuckleheads we send them into brilliant scholars—at the absolute minimum cost, of course.

By all means, bring the courts to bear on issues that are fundamental to decency, including school funding. If the backward-looking South will not conform to basic constitutional requirements, the courts should be there to force conformity. We’ve had enough of “states rights” in my lifetime.

By Diogenes

November 26, 2006 10:06 AM | Link to this

Mallory,

Your comment, “Their academic requirements are set at a higher standard than in public school.” We’d like to believe that, but it’s not true. Many, not all, of the private schools are religious-based. What is controlled is the content not the quality. Many, not all, of the private schools exist to instill “proper values” into the students, which includes behavior, manners, racial notions, and self-discipline. The quality of the product is not better; it is just packaged more attractively. It would horrify you to know the level at which many, not all, private schools target their instruction.

There are some very good private schools out there, and their excellence clouds the public’s perspective on the quality of education students can receive in private schools. If you can afford them and are willing to be on a long waiting list, then I recommend that you educate your children at one of these premier schools. That’s the best you can get in Georgia, but that’s only from a handful.

By I Voted For The War Before I Cut And Run From It

November 26, 2006 10:10 AM | Link to this

By gitmolife November 26, 2006 09:26 AM OIL CONSPIRACY: AP: Firms deliberately cut back on oil production The analysis, based on data from the U.S. Energy Information Administration, indicates that the industry slacked off supplying oil and gasoline during the prolonged price boom between early 1999 and last summer.

Ummm, you forgot to add “Middle Eastern” to the “firm” part.

It would be nice to have some domestic oil production to counter Opec putting the squeeze on us, but alas, we let liberals decide our policy so the caribou get carte blanche.

The turkeys are next. You’d better pray that you don’t live on a natural turkey migration route cause the libs will introduce legislation to drive you off your property.

Call it the fowl tax.

Bird brains against American power unite!

By getalife

November 26, 2006 10:27 AM | Link to this

Andy,

libs, libs, libs, blah, blah, blah.

A quick way to reduce the deficit is to recover the revenue big oil has stolen from the American people.

Along with those who profitted from the blood of our troops, a step in the right direction.

I see your boy Cheney went whining for help from his buddies in Saudi Arabia. At least he did not hold hands like the cheerleader.

How gay is that?

By Diogenes

November 26, 2006 10:36 AM | Link to this

I Voted For The War Before I Cut And Run From It (609 pm),

Your comment, “Students who attend a private school through a voucher program experience greater gains in math and reading than do their public school counterparts” is precisely what Shanea Watkins is attempting to demonstrate in her article. I think she struggled mightily to disqualify the NCES study. It is open to debate whether or not she was successful.

Another comment made from that study is “Indeed, the report says that private school students have an advantage over public school stu­dents only in eighth grade reading. These results should be handled very carefully.” I agree that these results should be handled very carefully, and that if Watkins chooses to disqualify the study, then her assertions don’t follow either

The truth is that in Atlanta (that is the only portion of Georgia tested) private schools pull the average down. The results should be scary to all right-minded Georgians who are concerned about the quality of our schools - whether public or private. We the people should demand that the leaders of our future can spell “Social Security” correctly because we will be dependent on it and them.

By Buy Danish

November 26, 2006 10:37 AM | Link to this

Jim Wooten,

While I would normally be the last person to say that the courts have a role in determining school funding, there can be an argument made for it, but it would not be the case that you cited.

Local Judges order counties to build new jails to improve the lives of prisoners. Federal Judges order that Gitmo prisoners be given certain rights.

What about the conditions in which many of our children go to school?

Take Paulding County, where the voters voted down a bond referendum to fund new schools. I don’t live in Paulding County so I have no immediate interest in these results, but this scenario could easily play out in other counties:

According to this website, the cost to the Paulding County taxpayers would have been minimal.The owner of a $100,000 house will see an approximate $95 per year increase. The owner of a $200,000 house will see an approximate increase of $195.

If the predictions made before the vote are correct, Paulding County will have “no option but to move to double sessions.”

What are double sessions?

One model would have half the students attending school from 7:00 a.m. to 12:00 p.m. with the second half attending from 1:00 p.m. to 6:00 p.m.; Another option would have half the students attending school on Monday, Wednesday and Friday with the other half attending Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday.

If this occurs, it will be a disaster for Paulding County (and I would imagine that property values will plummet so they’ve cut off their nose to spite their face).

What teacher will agree to work those hours? How do working parents get their children on the bus when school BEGINS at 7 a.m.? Do they put them in daycare from noon until they get home from work?

How do you work an alternate day schedule? Put the in “daycare” every other day?

Even if both parents don’t work, how do you work with a schedule that requires Saturday attendance?

What happens to athletic programs, either school sponsored, or those that are pursued individually? What about “family time”?

In a case like this, where undue hardship will be placed on families, I could forsee a judge coming in and ordering some sort of remedy.

If Judges concern themselves with the well-being of prisoners, why not our children?

I realize that there are tons of arguments that the counties need to control development, implement impact fees, et cetera - but that is only a solution for the future and the process is very laborious to enact. What about now?

Let’s not forget that the schools are now mandated by State law to reduce classroom sizes. Much of their budgets are eaten up hiring new teachers to accomodate this, over which they have no say.

I realize that this is highly controversial, and it would appear that I am falling astray from my conservative ideology, but what happens when our kids (and their families) are held hostage by voters?

By time for the truth

November 26, 2006 10:41 AM | Link to this

Inbred observer and Inbred redneck need to get a room together - get the key of rednekkks NAMBLA. Then these hateful leftist pondscum can endlessly intimately obsess over their conservative betters from England.

The cretin observer clearly is utterly pig ignorant over the actual meaning of fascist … which makes this snivelling retarded wanker seemingly an ignorant lying/blustering moral fascist. There are no right wing fascists on this blog, certainly I’ve seen no (regular) right wing fascist contributors. Mainstream conservatism and the policies of the GOP are not “fascist”. Inbred observer’s deep intolerant aggressive antipathy to those who hold differing political views is still hugely amusing. But cheers for the vituperation dickweed - its freaking hilarious and wonderful recompense for all my sterling efforts.

As for Inbred redneck - this semi-literate gibbering KKK Kamp trainee janitor has as much political and intellectual insight as a rabid transgendered possum squashed by a “fictional” stolen beer truck. Inbred’s academic career (huge ironic smirk) has never recovered from abjectly flunking out of Cross Burning School in yankkkee rural Indiana.

By I Voted For The War Before I Cut And Run From It

November 26, 2006 10:44 AM | Link to this

By getalife November 26, 2006 10:27 AM A quick way to reduce the deficit is to recover the revenue big oil has stolen from the American people.

If if and buts were candy and nuts…

Anyone one else think the oil companies would suck up gitmo’s tax and not pass it along in price increases?

Do you live in a fairy tale too?

By I Voted For The War Before I Cut And Run From It

November 26, 2006 10:49 AM | Link to this

Doigenes at 10:36:

Here’s all you need to know about the NCES “study-“

The National Center for Education Statistics (NCES), located within the U.S. Department of Education and the Institute of Education Sciences, is the primary federal entity for collecting and analyzing data related to education.

Yes, public education is great! So don’t cut our budget and give all the money to private schools, please.

Merry Christmas!

By Diogenes

November 26, 2006 10:51 AM | Link to this

Buy Danish,

I don’t agree with all your premises, and you don’t agree on all my premises, but we both want to see the quality of Georgia education improved. That’s the bottom line; the details can be worked out later, but until Georgians realize how severely our students are being cheated educationally and rise up in revolt to correct that appalling situation, it will not be corrected. Well said.

By Diogenes

November 26, 2006 10:58 AM | Link to this

I Voted For The War Before I Cut And Run From It (1049),

I’m not sure what point you are trying to make. Watkins stated that the sample was too small to be significant, which may or may not be true. What is true is that her article does not break down the results by city. I would contend that the results, whether the sample size is large enough or not to be significant, should alarm all Georgians, not just those in Atlanta, where the test was given.

Until we the people demand higher quality from our schools, both private and public, we won’t get it. I think that’s what you are advocating, but I wanted to double check. If it is, then obviously I totally agree with you.

By Eumenides

November 26, 2006 11:03 AM | Link to this

It’s true that social progress can only lure a legislature, but an independent judiciary is every american’s shield.

In the fifties men wore ducktails. In the sixties, the sex was so open that men were actually quacking at 8s and 9s. In the seventies we witness the lamest duck prez in history. In the eighties we ducked war with Islam when Reagan cut and run from Beirut. In the nineties clinton forced every american to imagine sodomy, and we talked about it so much that even middle schoolers were in flagrant mimicry on the longer bus rides (short busses too). In my day it was under the bleachers (where I ruled).

But now, we have the lame duck prez for a country with all it’s ducks in a row.

The news out of Iraq is evolving exponentially. That means a de facto coup of the fairly elected government. Think about who would be dumb enough to underwrite the Iraqi Parliament’s laws. The Shia, held down for a century by our own manifest-destiny-inspired foreign policy, are standing up like a theo-jingoistic godzilla. The two little fairies are Syria and Iran. Tokyo is Israel. Life Imitates Art. The only thing that can save us is a king kong type hero, if only our president was a chimp……yaaay!!!!

By I Voted For The War Before I Cut And Run From It

November 26, 2006 11:08 AM | Link to this

By Diogenes November 26, 2006 10:58 AM Until we the people demand higher quality from our schools, both private and public, we won’t get it. I think that’s what you are advocating, but I wanted to double check. If it is, then obviously I totally agree with you.

If that is true, then why are you advocating a bogus study done by the government that advocates for government sponsored education?

How can slanting the truth help our kids?

Any seriously considered study should be an independent effort that honestly looks at the results and weighs them based on the difficultly of the curriculum.

That hasn’t been done yet.

Do a google search of this study and take note of how all the big pinko media outfits are trumpeting the results.

Think “teacher’s unions.”

By Mike

November 26, 2006 11:12 AM | Link to this

Mr. Wooten is right,this is just another example of a power grab by the court. It dosn’t matter wich side of this issue you are on,the court has no right to dictate to the legislative branch other than to rule on constitutionality of laws.If the public does not like how the legilators do things, they have a chance to replace them every two years.

By Buy Danish

November 26, 2006 11:12 AM | Link to this

Diogenes,

From my experience the “quality” of the education is pretty good (although I personally have disagreements with the “social science” curriculum (the new phrase to replace “social studies” which was a new phrase to replace “history”), and the appalling fact that English literature is non-existent in my son’s Middle School - but that has no bearing on the subject at hand as I don’t think those curriculum decisions are funding related.

My problem is with the environment in which they attend school; the overcrowding; the long bus rides; the dreary classrooms; the overly long classes; the cafeterias that are so crowded the kids only get 20 minutes for lunch and are not free to “socialize”; the lack of “free” time including the lack of recess after elementary school; the push for year round schooling (which some of us have done a good job of nipping in the bud); the unthinkable split schedules that are predicted for Paulding County.

It is no wonder that so many kids drop out before they finish High School. While the impetus for many of those decisions are cultural, the fact is that many of our schools are miserable places to spend your days, and I can understand why some choose to flee at the first opportunity.

By andy

November 26, 2006 11:14 AM | Link to this

I wonder how long it will take for andy’s trolls (bi tf rw mark @@) to annoy dio enough so he starts flaming them? great theatre. wooten’s a genius.

Takemywife, dont fall for every alias.

By jbmlaw

November 26, 2006 11:18 AM | Link to this

Good morning all. I think I agree with all Mallory wrote. The funniest part is that, but for lack of basic economic education, our courts could fashion the obvious simple solution to the matter (to the extent that anyone would disagree with Jim’s thesis, that courts have no business in this business at all.)

If the problem is unequal amounts spent per pupil, the easy and intelligent solution is for the courts to command cessation of direct funding of schools, and direct the legislature to issue a voucher for each child, spendable at any instutition selected by the parents, including home schoolers. Surely this is a idea our leftist friends could buy into, to ensure equity?

Have a great day all. I’ll read your ideas tonight.

Also, welcome back Philosopher - we all missed you, and Jim noted your absence Friday.

By Diogenes

November 26, 2006 11:24 AM | Link to this

I Voted For The War Before I Cut And Run From It

Your comment: “If that is true, then why are you advocating a bogus study done by the government that advocates for government sponsored education?”

I’m not advocating the study. I doubt that it is bogus but I do question the sample size. what I dispute is the conclusions which Shanea Watkins drew from it. On the other hand, whether or not the test is bogus, whether or not the sample size was large enough, it should startle Georgians enough to be concerned about what’s happening in our schools. It won’t; we both know that. The satisfying thing about a blog is that we can advocate our opinions, have them refined by the inqueries and counterarguments of others, then know which direction to take politically. It’s an interesting form of public forum in a community the size of ours, but the sample size is smaller than one would expect.

By Think Tank Tonka Tinker

November 26, 2006 11:25 AM | Link to this

Mid morning assessment of Iraq War: The talk shows are introducing no new insights into the mix. Everyone is repeating what pundits have been saying all fall long.

Not one government hot shot big shot fat belly has any idea how to form the language to assuage the interviewers.

It’s here: time for the truth. I think baker’s report is obsolete and he knows it. events have evolved after he wrote that report. He’ll have to reassess his reassessment.

I think we should just leave iraq now, and let BP Oil (Saudi Royal Family) fend for their focking selves. It’s the arabs oil. What are we doing there? W couldn’t find oil in Texas, yet we’re supposed to believe what he says about oil in Iraq?

Resign W.

Surrender Osama.

By Bemused Humanist

November 26, 2006 11:30 AM | Link to this

“Inbred observer’s deep intolerant aggressive antipathy to those who hold differing political views is still hugely amusing.”

Written without a hint of irony.

Mr. Truth’s lines must be the product of some ingenious liberal imagination intent on diminishing right-wing support. No one could be so utterly devoid of taste, civility, intellect, erudition, manners, and self-awareness as this man. No true conservative would repeatedly embarrass his cause – not to mention himself and his family — in this manner.

If this offensive lout is an actual person, then the strongest conservative argument ever implicitly made on this blog is the failure of socialized medicine in Great Britain to diagnose and treat his acute personality disorder while he was young and ostensibly curable.

By Think Tank Tonka Tinker

November 26, 2006 11:30 AM | Link to this

Should the legislators be cartographers?

Should cartographers be legislatures?

Where did the cartographer who drew the Iraqi borders post WW1 draw his authority from?

We should just leave the Iraqis our tanks and see what they do. bwa

By getalife

November 26, 2006 11:32 AM | Link to this

“I got four phone calls from friends telling me to change the channel to Iraqiya and see what’s happening,” said Mohamed Othman, 27, a Sunni resident of Ameriya, one of the districts mentioned in the program. “I think this is an official declaration of civil war against Sunnis. They’re going to push us to join al-Qaida to protect ourselves.”

Mmmm, creating more terrorists over there to attack us over here.

Yep, al-Qaida loves w.

By Mallory

November 26, 2006 11:34 AM | Link to this

Diogenes, In a learning environment I find the attributes you afford christian schools to be very beneficial. Proper values, behavior respectful of other students and teachers, and self-discipline.

I don’t know where your notions about race play a part. I find private schools very diverse in ethnicity. Your inference seems to apply some type of miscalculated segregation. You couldn’t be more wrong.

I’m looking for a school that puts forth all that you seem to find distasteful, but it doesn’t have to be religiously based.

Am I supposed to thank you for your advice when I didn’t ask for it?

Here’s my best attempt at political correctness.

Thanks anyway Diogenes. You’ve been so very helpful in sticking your nose in my business.

By Diogenes

November 26, 2006 11:39 AM | Link to this

Buy Danish,

My impression from your post is that you are not particulary happy about some of the things being done at your child’s school. The experiences you describe are as much a part of the education your child receives as the content in the classroom (and even some of that you question: social studies and English lit). I agree that they are not funding related; they are decisions made either by the B of E or the principal of the school. You need to take your advocacy to them.

Your comment, “While the impetus for many of those decisions are cultural, the fact is that many of our schools are miserable places to spend your days, and I can understand why some choose to flee at the first opportunity” is as harsh a condemnation of our educational system as any I’ve heard. You need to rally like minded parents to descend en masse on the B of E and demand that the educational experience improve. Part of judging the quality of education in Georgia is passing judgment on the drop-out rate, also. If it is excessively high, then the schools are not educating our students. I suggest that it is too high. You hint that it is too high. As I said, we may not agree with each other’s premises, but we agree on the results desired.

By I Voted For The War Before I Cut And Run From It

November 26, 2006 11:46 AM | Link to this

I honestly don’t understand why Wooten doesn’t boot this wanker:

By andy November 26, 2006 11:14 AM I wonder how long it will take for andy’s trolls (bi tf rw mark @@) to annoy dio enough so he starts flaming them? great theatre. wooten’s a genius. Takemywife, dont fall for every alias.

There is a big difference between censoring political opinion that you don’t agree with, let gitmo wants to do, and cleaning up some trash virus that has infected your hard drive and is maliciously attacking your blog participants.

Honestly, if anyone can tell me, this “political foreskin” waster has been here for over 6 months, have you seen one comment from this filth that you can even understand?

Jim, think of the bandwidth you could save.

Think of the seriousness you might start exhibiting here.

Is this what you want:

By I Voted for the War Even Though I’m a Poof November 26, 2006 08:28 AM I am gayer than Bi Danish’s crewcut and hairy armpits.

Boot it!

By Diogenes

November 26, 2006 11:56 AM | Link to this

Mallory,

Your comment,

“In a learning environment I find the attributes you afford christian schools to be very beneficial. Proper values, behavior respectful of other students and teachers, and self-discipline.”

I agree that I would expect these values to be part of home or school environment, public or private. I agree with your distaste for my use of the term racial attitudes, whether in a public or private school. The only quibble I make is that it is shameful that in many private, as well as public, schools, academic content does not keep pace with “values” content. I am of the opinion that we are on the same wavelength. I am just of the opinion, from search experience, that our private schools, some, not all, are failing our students in reading, writing, science, and civics just as dismally as the public schools. Where we differ, perhaps, is that I am strongly opposed to vouchers. I want to see the quality of education improved across the board, not fragmented even farther. Ironically enough, perhaps, the best education available in Georgia today often comes from home-schooling.

By Diogenes

November 26, 2006 12:05 PM | Link to this

jbmlaw (1118),

Interesting. It would seem that you are left of Ol’ Diogenes on this topic.

By Dennis

November 26, 2006 12:11 PM | Link to this

November 25, 2006

Dear Mr. Wooten,

Having read your article, cited above, which, in effect, is another of your attempts to put down public education, I challenge you to show in any way whatsoever, how public education is over funded or better yet, even adequately funded.

Your arguments over school funding are nothing less than the same types of arguments that were used many years ago by the white power establishment against educating black children. (To assure any question you might have as to my race, I and my entire family are all white).

Money may not be the entire answer to solve the ailments of public education, but if the government of this country can go into hock to pay for military wars and to bail out failing corporations, it can just as easily go into hock to fight the war of ignorance in this country.

It’s a matter of priorities, isn’t it?

May I suggest that you and those who share your point of view have, using words from one of your recent columns, lost the stomach and the will for the fight.

Sincerely,

Dennis

By Boot The Political Foreskin Wanker!

November 26, 2006 12:17 PM | Link to this

We need to boot this wanker too:

Maliki was visiting the Sadr City slum to pay respects to some of the 202 victims of last week’s devastating bombing. “It’s all your fault!” one man shouted as, in unprecedented scenes, a hostile crowd began to surge around the premier and then jeered as his armored convoy edged through the throng away from a mourning ceremony. The area is a base for the Mehdi Army militia led by Maliki’s fellow Shi’ite leader Moqtada al-Sadr.

A dead wanker is a good wanker.

By Buy Danish

November 26, 2006 12:32 PM | Link to this

If the problem is unequal amounts spent per pupil, the easy and intelligent solution is for the courts to command cessation of direct funding of schools, and direct the legislature to issue a voucher for each child, spendable at any instutition selected by the parents, including home schoolers.

jmblaw,

I agree, but how do we fund infrastructure, transportation, and other bricks and mortar issues? How do we even fund the vouchers - income tax? Property tax? Sales tax?

I surmise that you think that the private sector will jump in, but would not happen overnight. Private schools usually have entrance exam requirements, and unless they got the cream of the crop from public schools, or at the very least highly motivated students and families, I don’t necessarily believe that it would be a magic solution anyway.

You need to rally like minded parents to descend en masse on the B of E and demand that the educational experience improve.

Diogenes,

The schools follow a curriculum mandated by the State DOE. I doubt very much that it was the local school board, or my son’s Principal who decided to change “history” to “Social Studies” and now “Social Science”.

The State in turn is following the lead of educrats who have decided to turn the study history into politically-correct sociology lessons where they end up remarkably ignorant about American history - among other deficiencies in American public school education.

Infrastructure is funded differently county by county - sometimes through Bond referendums (see Paulding), sometimes through SPLOST taxes.

If the voters vote these down, there is not too much that the local school boards can do to remedy the situation.

BTW, there are ridiculous SPLOST proposals, such as the Cobb County laptop in every pot utopia which was correctly voted down by the voters.

I’m not talking about luxuries, but about basic conditions in which the students are educated.

Dennis,

Clearly, you have lost the will for the fight… to defend our country - of which war is a necessary evil. Apparently you are a product of the succesful Socialist brainwashing that infests American education at all levels.

The Federal Government which funds our military spends huge amounts on education and that is where most of the waste is.

Money is wasted on bureaucrats, adminstrators, other top-heavy drains on funding.

Gotta run folks. Fore!

By Mallory

November 26, 2006 12:49 PM | Link to this

Diogenes, The public high school in my district serves 2800 students. Assuming that some of those students inhabit the same domicile, we’re looking at just under 2800 parents. All with differing views of what the school owes their children. Not a competitive education, but a basic education.

Little Johnny’s parents want him to be able to dress in a black trench coat, with facial piercings out the wahzoo.

Little Mary’s Mom wants the boys to quit harrassing little Mary because Mary’s Mom thinks that Mary’s flaunting her sexuality is the right of a liberated woman.

Little Joey’s Dad wants to know why is 120 lb. son is left sitting on the bench during football games.

Little Mario’s parents think his class should be taught in spanish so that he can better comprehend the material.

Then there’s Ernie’s parents who want to know why all the distractions mentioned above are allowed to impact their kid’s ability to learn.

None of these concerns have anything to do with education except for Ernie’s.

They’re individual rights which interfere with education. There’s no way education is going to take a front seat to individual rights in a government school. The ACLU won’t allow it.

I’m a parent who is going to look for like-minded parents and like-minded school administrators who put education above individual rights. My kid can be an individual in college once he has his basic education under his belt, and knows how to put it to good use.

By Diogenes

November 26, 2006 01:02 PM | Link to this

Mallory (1249),

Your comment: “I’m a parent who is going to look for like-minded parents and like-minded school administrators who put education above individual rights. My kid can be an individual in college once he has his basic education under his belt, and knows how to put it to good use.”

That’s the best thing that’s been said today, but as citizens of Georgia, we should demand and we should receive precisely that from our public school system If we do not, then it is easy to see why Georgia scores next to last on academic achievement tests and has done so for at least the past fifty years. That should be unacceptable to all Georgians. What you say above should be the mantra of all parents in every school system of Georgia.

By time for the truth

November 26, 2006 01:16 PM | Link to this

@ bewildered humanscum

its always very pleasing to see how easily the genetically flawed leftist vermin on here bite, hypocritically evincing a decided lack of irony in their own unerringly arrogant plebian verbal poison.

as for bewildered humanscum’s own (rather more maternal) glaring medical challenges, clearly its deeply insecure multi-id cyber puke is a lesson to all clear thinking conservatives that so called partial birth abortion is - in certain circumstances, a good thing that undeniably needs to be made compulsory for all test tube concieved litters of supercilious doltish lefties, such as bewildered humanscum.

I trust my witty sparkling repartee was civilised and erudite enough for ya turdfaced bollock chops?

By Think Tank Tonka Tinker

November 26, 2006 01:26 PM | Link to this

Jim Mora blows. He’s a team killer.

By Mallory

November 26, 2006 01:41 PM | Link to this

Diogenes, Imagine what it would be like if government offered to fund private business to educate our kids, with all it’s diverse interests. They could compete for the brightest and favored interests of our children. Basic education included, with classes in the fields of science, math, technology, government, education, service industry.

It’s all there, motivated by the business community’s interest to create a well-rounded, and well-educated workforce. Kids can pick and choose. Excited about their chosen school’s focus on a profession that excites them.

Too many years have been spent on empty promises from government, and to no avail. It’s time to become innovative in education, before we totally waste our most precious commodity. Our kids.

I agree with I Voted For. Get rid of the teacher’s unions. They’re a government entity feeding at the government trough. Their interests are in themselves. Not the kids.

I’m out for the remainder.

By RW-(the original)

November 26, 2006 01:43 PM | Link to this

Diogenes,

If you have the opportunity let’s revisit the pop quiz you wanted to give me yesterday and narrow the focus of your lunacy.

Question three was addressed on yesterday’s thread. Questions two and four appear to be woefully off topic, but questions one and five appear to deal with the same issue and were pertinent to the discussion taking place.

Since this is your issue and I am only asking you to prove your point, it seems silly for you to be the one asking for my thoughts when you have provided none of your evidence. If you care to pick up the debate, please tell me what it is about the dinosaur/bird evolution that you believe and more importantly, please tell me what you like about the punctuated equilibrium theory you cited.

By Think Tank Tonka Tinker

November 26, 2006 01:47 PM | Link to this

You simply cannot rely on the sandlot chaos that Vick lives by. I’d fire Mora before the half, and let me pick the plays.

First play. Use Shockley as Q. Use vick as a passing halfback. Shockley pitches to Vick who runs off tackle. not an end sweep, an off tackle quickie.

Second Play. Vick runs out to the flat as Shockley goes long to the end zone.

Third Play. kick the extra point.

I am a football savant. How about the way the players all play injured. the Saints actually got a 15 yard penalty in the first quarter today for too many crutches in the neutral zone. Mora himself drew 15 yards for bandaging a cheerleader. it’s outta control!~

By Dennis

November 26, 2006 02:00 PM | Link to this

Diogenes wrote;

Dennis,

Clearly, you have lost the will for the fight… to defend our country - of which war is a necessary evil. Apparently you are a product of the succesful Socialist brainwashing that infests American education at all levels.

The Federal Government which funds our military spends huge amounts on education and that is where most of the waste is.

Money is wasted on bureaucrats, adminstrators, other top-heavy drains on funding.

Having had five children in public schools, and now five grandchildren, and having taught in public schools I will be the last to deny some mismanagment in public schools.

However if financial waste in public education is your best argument against funding against the ignorance that you want education to solve, then where is your argument and your cry against the financial waste and mismanagement within the past six years (well documented) of the “rebuilding of Iraq” (so called)? In some cases, the military hasn’t even kept up with where its weapons have gone.

To again quote you, “Apparently you are a product of the succesful Socialist brainwashing that infests American education at all levels.”

Yours is a typical conservative argument. If you want to use this argument, then you apparently are a product of your own brand of “infected” conservatism and of an inferior educational system that you should want to improve.

But I challenge you, just as I have Jim Wooten, (not that I think he will take the offer) to show anywhere that public education is overfunded or for that matter, even adequately funded.

If you really think that education is overfunded and teachers are over paid, then try less funding and lower salaries and see what you get.

(It will not be necessary for you to respond as a typical fifth grade boy who just has to hit back and say the same to me about the military. I served four years in the military and I am aware of what the military mission is and especially aware of the huge waste within the military).

I don’t remember who said it, but it was something to the effect that if a foreign nation imposed our present educational situation on us we would declare war.

Well, why don’t we declare our own war?

Because you and others like you (complainers all) are too damned stingy to dig down into your pockets and pay for it.

You don’t have to be a blind conservative not to see it, just an ignorant one to deny it.

By Diogenes

November 26, 2006 02:08 PM | Link to this

Mallory,

Mallory,

Your comment, “Too many years have been spent on empty promises from government, and to no avail. It’s time to become innovative in education, before we totally waste our most precious commodity. Our kids.” I agree with your premise. We have wasted several generations in Georgia.

Your next comment, “Get rid of the teacher’s unions. They’re a government entity feeding at the government trough. Their interests are in themselves. Not the kids.”

I agree with this premise, also.

The innovation, in my opinion, starts at the ballot box. Let’s elect B of E people who truly understand what education is (in the opinion of we the people), not administrators whose emphasis is on “keeping the peace and winning reelection.” Could business do better? I don’t know. It’s a radical proposition. It’s certainly thought-provoking. I’d like to see a propectus drawn up on that premise.

By Diogenes

November 26, 2006 02:34 PM | Link to this

RW-(the original),

“If you have the opportunity let’s revisit the pop quiz you wanted to give me yesterday and narrow the focus of your lunacy.”

Sure. Actually all of the questions had a purpose in helping us determine what common ground, if any, we have.

1) How familiar are you with the thesis that birds are the descendents of dinosaurs? What is your opinion? This is an exciting new development that started in the late 70’s or early 80’s. We’ve had time to watch it fully develop over the past 20 years and it’s been fun to watch because it totally overthrow the assumptions which preceded it. It’s a basic evolution question. If you accept that evidence, then we move from there. If you reject it totally, then we have a very steep hill to climb.

2) How familiar are you with plate tectonic theory, creating the Hawaiian Islands and the so-called Ring of Fire around the Pacific? Another movement which started in the late 70’s and early 80’s and was almost universally accepted within just a few years. The most important aspect of this is that, according to the theory, the continents were all one land mass and drifted apart. Consequently, there are some very interesting fossil finds, like tropical flora and fauna in Anartica. This also totally overthrew the assumptions about the stability of the earth’s surface which preceded it.

3) How familiar are you with Lucy, the Australopithecine Afarensis skeleton found in the late 1970’s? This is a basic human evolution question. Lucy may not be the proverbial “missing link,” but her combination of features makes for very interesting discussion. They have found a 3 year child as well, just recently publicized, that has an even more complete skeleton and is the basis for some more very interesting discussions. Lucy overthrew a lot of previous assumptions about the descent of man.

4) How familar are you with the debate on the earliest Americans? What is your position on that debate? Where does Kennewick man fit in? This was a question to determine whether or not you give any credence to the Bishop Ussher chronological, or if you accept that the earth is billions of years old and that modern man is 10,000 to 30,000 years old. Again, it’s a starting point. Kennewick Man may or may not be pertinent, but he’s interesting. The debate currently is in process of overthrowing the assumptions which preceded it.

5) How familiar are you with Eldredge and Gould’s thesis of punctuated equilibrium? Do you think it best describes the gaps in the fossil record? You say that the fossil record is full of dead ends, and I’m not quite sure what you mean by that. There’s a few possibilities about you mean, even though I think Lucy’s and “Lucy’s Baby” are highly significant. The theory of punctuated equilibrium could explain the gaps in the fossil record. In short, it proposes that evolution is stable (within a species) for a long period and then change (when it comes) is very rapid. It also was a “radical” change in assumptions. Evolutionary theory as I’ve tried to show from these questions is not static; it’s changing, evolving, as new evidence becomes available, evidence like I’ve alluded to above.

Remember that the basis for Darwin’s theory was not the fossil record but the living animals and birds he found on the voyage of the Beagle, especially the finches and tortoises of the Galapagos Islands.

If you have a pet, a dog or a cat, and they are indoor animals so that you spend a lot of time with them, then the kinship between you and that animal is intuitively obvious and is very close (first of all, you are both mammals) and as you watch the pet, you see similarities to human behavior as well. I find my cats absolutely fascinating to watch, especially in their interactions with each other.

By Diogenes

November 26, 2006 02:37 PM | Link to this

Dennis (200),

That was Buy Danish at 1232, addressing several of us, including Ol’ Diogenes and Dennis, et al.

By Boot The Political Foreskin Wanker!

November 26, 2006 02:44 PM | Link to this

Mora is fixin to find out what it really means to be in Atlanta amongst all the pinkos.

They will knife him in the back, stalk his family, he’d better bring the dog inside the house.

I’d freaking hate to be in his shoes.

By getalife

November 26, 2006 02:49 PM | Link to this

“Is it just me or has George W. Bush checked out of the stumbling national crisis we know as ‘Iraq’?”

W and Cheney should be checked out of office.

Investigate.

Indict.

Impeach.

Incarcerate.

By RW-(the original)

November 26, 2006 02:56 PM | Link to this

Diogenes,

The punctuated equilibrium or “hopeful monster” theory is nothing more than an excuse for the fact that there is NO evidence in the fossil record that shows any species evolving into another. It basically say that two dinosaurs got together, laid an egg which hatched as a bird and presumably another dinosaur couple did the same with their bird hatching as a bird of a different sex. The two mutated birds got together and populated a new species.

Is this really what you want to present as a sign of your intelligence?

That covers 1 and 5.

I have little disagreement with question 2 other than you positing as fact that all land was once connected. It may have been or not, but the tectonic shifts are obviously very real and we see that evidence on a near daily basis.

Question 3 is complete hooey. Show me anything that takes “Lucy” or “her baby” in either direction that connects her to another species. Did Lucy the chimp get pregnant and through punctuated equilibrium give birth to modern woman nine months later?

I have no clue what Kennewick man has to do with this discussion other than you saw him in one of the fairy tales you got these questions from and decided to drop him in here. If he’s real, which is very much disputed, he would show nothing more than a Pacific trade route between Asia and North America.

By RW-(the original)

November 26, 2006 02:57 PM | Link to this

Andy,

Isn’t that the truth! Good thing rushncap is in North Carolina or Mora’s pooch would be in real trouble.

By alphie

November 26, 2006 03:31 PM | Link to this

The creationist arguments against evolution are proof positive that public education in Georgia is a waste of my tax money. Why are the schools closed a quarter of the year? What private business could shut down its factories and offices for three months and still expect to remain in business? Teachers are overpaid babysitters, and it is about time we cut their salaries, and increased their work year. Don’t tell me how tough teaching is, because I know it is a piece of cake compared to the private sector. I have a relative who was a classroom teacher for more than 20 years, was very relaxed, no stress, got summeres off, thanksgiving, christmas, spring break, and recently fall break. He recently switched to a full time administrative job, now has high blood pressure, stress lines in the face, is putting on weight, is nervous and unhappy. He Cuz, welcome to the real world, you lazy bum.

By alphie

November 26, 2006 03:34 PM | Link to this

What is this crap about the troops being in Iraq to defend america? Iraq never was a threat to america, and certainly was not after the gulf war. Our troops are in iraq because the current administration wants them there for its own reasons, with nothing whatsoever to do with defending america. Defending Israel maybe, but not defending america.

By alphie

November 26, 2006 03:36 PM | Link to this

If i have to pay for public eduction, then i demand the little brats pass calculus, physics, chemistry, biology, and master a foreign language prior to graduation. If not, then they flunk, no degree. Let them dig ditches.

By Dennis

November 26, 2006 03:39 PM | Link to this

Diogenes, my apology.

I post only ocassionaly here, so got that mixed up.

Dennis

By Diogenes

November 26, 2006 03:50 PM | Link to this

RW-(the original),

I don’t understand your conflation of 1 and 5. The hypothesis that birds are the descendants of the dinosaurs is based on quite a number of features, including “dinosaur/bird” fossils, but that’s just the surface.

Your “hopeful monster” is a children’s cartoon, I think. It certainly has nothing to do with evolution. I presume that you are rejecting the entire notion without examining the evidence.

Your rejection of “punctuated equilibrium” has no basis that I can tell. It does explain the gaps; perhaps another theory would explain it better, but that one presently has currency. Lucy is about 3.2 million years old, so your compression of time is amusing. Modern man is about 30000 years old. You are, I think trying use the gaps to reject the whole, rather than considering what does exist.

In order to talk about evolution in coherent terms, we need to establish mutual premises. Lucy is bipedal, yet has arboreal features in the hands and the arms. The skeleton called “Lucy’s Baby” shows evidence of having a brain and dental pattern akin to human development. That’s pretty exciting stuff. You say, “Show me anything that takes “Lucy” or “her baby” in either direction that connects her to another species,” but I’m not sure what you think it would take to be persuasive to you. The features show interesting possibilities.

Kennewick Man is interesting only because of his age and some of the early claims which were made for his origins and because of all the legal battles over him. What’s really interesting, however, is how long has man been in the Americas? That’s interesting and, as I said above is in process of overthrowing existing theory.

RW (the original): I’d thoroughly enjoy discussing this with you and referring you to some of the evidence, but we have to have some mutual starting point. Is there one? This is fascinating stuff; I based my questions on new theories to show you that the basal theory is not static, that it’s dynamically evolving, that new theories are being developed almost daily. If you’re interested, please allow me a starting point. Do you have pets; did you consider the kinship between you and your pet beyond the obvious that you are both mammals?

By RW-(the original)

November 26, 2006 04:02 PM | Link to this

Diogenes,

Here’s your starting point which I’ve stated over and over. Show me proof of any species ever evolving into another.

As for punctuated equilibrium, if you believe a theory that says that something just suddenly became something else and thus there is no fossil record proves evolution then there is really no reason to discuss this with you because it proves you are nothing but a gullible fool.

Creationists say that a species just begins and ends, yet you reject that and claim that a species just begins and ends, but use a ridiculous theory that isn’t backed by any proof as your proof. What sense does that make?

By Boot The Political Foreskin Wanker!

November 26, 2006 04:02 PM | Link to this

One little pinko:

By alphie November 26, 2006 03:34 PM What is this crap about the troops being in Iraq to defend america? Iraq never was a threat to america, and certainly was not after the gulf war.

Two little pinko:

By getalife November 26, 2006 11:32 AM “I think this is an official declaration of civil war against Sunnis. They’re going to push us to join al-Qaida to protect ourselves.”

Two and two together?

Al Qaeda in Iraq

Or learn the hard way, again?

By Think Tank Tonka Tinker

November 26, 2006 04:02 PM | Link to this

Mora is finished. He is the peter-principled murphy’s-mother of all coaches.

How he can blow a game. Unreal. Falcons will use their last time out: that’s the synopsis of our whole season. crying time

By Diogenes

November 26, 2006 04:10 PM | Link to this

RW (the original)

There’s a nice animated web site on continental drift at

http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/geology/anim11.html

Wikipedia has a good discussion of plate tectonics and continental drift at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plate_tectonics

but not many pictures to help grasp what has transpired over the eons

The United States Geological Survey also has a good web site on tectonic plate theory and continental drift at http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/dynamic/dynamic.html

By Diogenes

November 26, 2006 04:13 PM | Link to this

RW (the original),

Show me proof of any species ever evolving into another.

What would you regard as proof? There’s tons of it. The finches on The Galapagos Islands are as good an example as I can think of, and that was Darwin’s starting point.

By RW-(the original)

November 26, 2006 04:24 PM | Link to this

Diogenes,

What exactly do the Galapagos finches prove? During dry periods finches with longer beaks appeared and during rainy periods finches with shorter beaks appeared. They are either evidence of migration to preferable climates or evidence that a species will adapt itself to changing conditions.

If we take the latter as what Darwin observed, why do they change back and forth instead of continuing to evolve into something other than a finch?

I apologize in advance for this, but I feel like I’m discussing this with a third grader. You are continuously telling me there is all this proof of man’s existence being the result of evolution. Will you please quit telling me this and show some of this proof? You can tell me until you are blue in the face, but I assure you I will NEVER just take your word for it. Yesterday you proved beyond any doubt how dishonest you are so put up or move on.

By getalife

November 26, 2006 04:27 PM | Link to this

How bout them Saints?

Losers.

By Buy Danish

November 26, 2006 04:30 PM | Link to this

Dennis and others,

There is NO teachers union in Georgia.

There IS a terrible waste of dollars at the Federal level on education.

Our national defense is the first role of government. Complaining about school funding and looking to the War as siphoning money from that funding is a specious argument.

Between the Vietnam War and the Iraq war were many decades with few battlefield incursions. Why did education not miraculously improve during that time?

Indeed, education went down the tubes starting in the Sixties when Liberals disposed of standards that had served us well, and replaced them with politically correct attitudes and curriculum.

It’s pretty easy to trace the decline in American education, and conservatives are not the problem.

Alphie,

The school year is 180 days - if they weren’t closed in the summer they would just be closing more often during the rest of the year.

The school year is not designed for the benefit of teachers, so your angry diatribe about teachers, “bratty kids” (and everything else) is pointless.

By Diogenes

November 26, 2006 04:33 PM | Link to this

RW (the original) As for punctuated equilibrium, if you believe a theory that says that something just suddenly became something else and thus there is no fossil record proves evolution then there is really no reason to discuss this with you because it proves you are nothing but a gullible fool.

That’s not it at all. I probably didn’t explain it well. I’m speaking in geologicl time and I forgot to make myself clear. The sudden bursts are sudden only in terms of geology. The sudden burst might be three million years. By that standard, compare the age of modern man: about 30000 years.

Creationists are obsolete and have no theoretic framework upon which to hang a proof. In short, they essentially have no evidence, just suppositions. They start with a premise and do their best to make the evidence fit the premise. There’s such an overwhelming abundance of evidence that they can’t incorporate it and twist their premise fast enough to account for it all.

That’s why I chose recent theories that had overthrown existing theory as a starting point. You appear to be seeking proof that evolution happened overnight, which it did not. I take it that you have totally rejected the possibility of discussion. That’s really too bad, because it’s interesting stuff and I would thoroughly enjoy discussing it with you (with references, of course).

I thought your request that we review the questions from yesterday was a good faith request for a discussion. I would love a discussion, but it’s hard to do so when I’m being attacked for trying to explain this in good faith.

By Buy Danish

November 26, 2006 04:35 PM | Link to this

{Do you have pets; did you consider the kinship between you and your pet beyond the obvious that you are both mammals?}

Diogenes,

What does that^^ have to do with Darwin? As Andy said yesterday, they have a soul, they are just not aware of their soul.

My dog is smarter, more loving, and has a better sense of humor than the vast majority of Liberals. What does that prove about evolution?

By Diogenes

November 26, 2006 04:36 PM | Link to this

RW (the original)

evidence of migration to preferable climates or evidence that a species will adapt itself to changing conditions.

Migration is difficult on a tiny island. “…A species will adapt itself to changing conditions” is one of the fundamental premises of evolution.

By RW-(the original)

November 26, 2006 04:37 PM | Link to this

getalife,

Screw you and the Saints you rode in on!

I’ve got to give you credit though, after being burned by the Falcons Big Ben play 147 times the Saints finally paid the Birds back.

By I Voted For The War Before I Cut And Run From It

November 26, 2006 04:38 PM | Link to this

Yeah, Diogenes, an answer on why the atmosphere on Mars is warming would be nice too.

By ralphie

November 26, 2006 04:45 PM | Link to this

yeah I have a pet, her name is Marla, and she is just 18, about 5’5” and 110 pounds. She visits four time per week, when her mother is at work!

By Diogenes

November 26, 2006 04:47 PM | Link to this

RW (the originial)),

third grader. You are continuously telling me there is all this proof of man’s existence being the result of evolution. Will you please quit telling me this and show some of this proof? You can tell me until you are blue in the face, but I assure you I will NEVER just take your word for it. Yesterday you proved beyond any doubt how dishonest you are so put up or move on.

I prefer not to be insulted. I’m trying to build this up slowly so you can accept each step as we take it together. As I said, I’m more than willing to discuss, but I won’t insult you and I expect you not to insult me. I expect us to debate as two who respect each other and the premises from each starts. If we can’t do that, then I propose we drop it and pick up with tomorrow’s discussion tomorrow. I’ve asked several times, what would be an acceptable starting point. You seem to reject the whole without examining the evidence or considering even simple propositions like man’s obvious kinship to his pets and the animals around him. If I don’t know premises you are willing to accept, I can’t proceed. Pick up a copy of December’s Scientific American and read the article on “Lucy’s Baby.” While at the Library, pick up Donald Johanson’s book From Lucy to Lanuage. Johnason is one of the discoverers of Lucy. This is not a discussion we can conclude in a afternoon. You seem to expect me to be able to do so, but I cannot. We can go forward if you wish, but only if you wish and only if we can put away the insults and work cooperatively. If not, we’ll deal with tomorrow’s topic tomorrow. I have no idea what you mean by my being dishonest.

By Diogenes

November 26, 2006 04:50 PM | Link to this

Buy Danish,

My dog is smarter, more loving, and has a better sense of humor than the vast majority of Liberals. What does that prove about evolution?

It probably proves that you and that dog are kin beyond the obvious that you are mammals. Think about it a minute. Compare the biology of your pet to your own biology. Why are they so much alike? That question is an interesting one.

By Dennis

November 26, 2006 04:51 PM | Link to this

Indeed, education went down the tubes starting in the Sixties when Liberals disposed of standards that had served us well, and replaced them with politically correct attitudes and curriculum.

And those standards were?

Dennis

By Diogenes

November 26, 2006 04:54 PM | Link to this

I Voted For The War Before I Cut And Run From It

I thought you concluded yesterday that Cheney and Halliburton are responsible. If that is the not the case, then I don’t know any more than you’ve told me.

By RW-(the original)

November 26, 2006 04:54 PM | Link to this

Diogenes,

Adaptation to your environment is absolutely no proof of a species becoming another species.

You playing word games with my posts and pretending that I am operating in the micro rather than the macro notwithstanding, I simply want you to show me the proof that any species ever turned into a different species and I really don’t care how many years you want to cover.

As for your description of creationists, it seems that they are operating on faith in creation without proof in the very same way that you are operating on faith in evolution being the origin of man with no proof. The difference is that they will be honest about what they are relying on.

Give me an honest man over a pseudo scientist any day.

On what absurd believe do you base the difficulty of birds migrating? If you want proof of something, it’s pretty easy to find proof that they do that all the time. The Ruby Throated Hummingbirds that spend August in my backyard are hanging out in Mexico about now. Why did you ignore the part about the Galapagos finches changing back and forth instead of turning into a giraffe or something?

By Mallory

November 26, 2006 05:01 PM | Link to this

Diogenes, You’re a difficult one to debate. You’re either fluctuating on your stance, or flatulating in excitement over theories which have no basis in fact.

I dropped in yesterday and you contributed 37 out of 140 comments. All of your comments were on CO2 and global warming. Today you’re excited about evolutionary theory.

No matter how you frame your argument on education, you still advocate government’s involvement to promote equality in education. You completely ignore the diversity of the voters which defeats an overall concensus.

I’m beginning to see what RW(the original) is saying about you. Evolve already. Stop being a Galapagos turtle with your head in one minute and out the next.

Aside from all I’ve mentioned above, I’m going to stick my neck out and say that you’re boring.

A scientific blog might be more appropriate for someone with your interests.

By RW-(the original)

November 26, 2006 05:03 PM | Link to this

Diogenes at 4:47,

That is going to be difficult because I have absolutely ZERO respect for you. When you decided to lie about what I posted yesterday you lost any chance of gaining my respect. I abhor dishonesty and you are continuing it today in the very post I am referencing by saying that I want this to be a discussion that can be concluded in a day. It is your way of saying that it will take time because you view me as a simpleton that needs to be led slowly to your conclusion.

Ask any veteran of these blogs whether my passion for this subject ends in a day or whether I am going to sit back and accept the word of a liar like you. Ask them whether I’m informed on this subject matter.

The arguments you present are the most childish I’ve encountered here which is what brought on the third grader comment and if you were honest you would acknowledge that I apologized in advance for the comment.

By Buy Danish

November 26, 2006 05:04 PM | Link to this

Dennis and Digoenes,

Is it too much to ask to put quotation marks or italics around other peoples words?

Dennis,

If you think that education improved since the Sixties, show me what standards were added and which were removed that made things better.

By Dennis

November 26, 2006 05:06 PM | Link to this

My previous post didn’t exactly say what I wanted to say, so let me do a better job.

By Danish said; “Indeed, education went down the tubes starting in the Sixties when Liberals disposed of standards that had served us well, and replaced them with politically correct attitudes and curriculum.”

And those standards were? And the “politically correct” thing that you’re refering to is integration?

“Why did education not miraculously improve during that time?”

What miracle would you expect and why?

As to waste in education vs. the military, I can tell you first hand that there is waste in both, but the military is not held nearly to the standards of bookkeeping and accounting that public schools are.

You don’t have to be a blind conservative not to see it, just an ignorant one to deny it.

By Buy Danish

November 26, 2006 05:07 PM | Link to this

As for your description of creationists, it seems that they are operating on faith in creation without proof in the very same way that you are operating on faith in evolution being the origin of man with no proof. The difference is that they will be honest about what they are relying on.

RW,

Amen!

By Diogenes

November 26, 2006 05:09 PM | Link to this

RW (the original)

The creationists are working from faith based premises. Enough said.

I’m trying to compress more than 30 years of reading into brief blog bytes. I’ve cited a couple of current sources. Go NHmag.com and look at the brief articles they have on Intelligent Design and the refutation; the brief articles they have on Darwin (they are merely summaries of longer articles which I hope to find at the library tomorrow. If not, I’ll purchase copies of them. Go to Sciam.com and look at some of their articles. There’s lots of immediately available discussion. I’ll bring you a list of books from the library tomorrow. As I said, you’re demanding that I condense 30 years of reading into a few sentences with citations and insult me when I can’t. Your migration hypothesis is invalid on the Galapagos Islands because they are too remote. The finches got there by some means (perhaps being blown astray while migrating) and over millions of years radiated into a large number of species filling many niches in the environment. I haven’t looked, but I suspect Wikipedia has a good article on Galapagos and the finches. Take a look. Tomorrow, I’ll bring you some other sources to check out. We can proceed amiably. I won’t insult you; there’s no need and it won’t accomplish anything. I will make the good faith assumption that you want to learn. If you wish for me to refute the Creationists further, I’ll be glad to do so, but I thought I had said enough to get my point across.

By I Voted For The War Before I Cut And Run From It

November 26, 2006 05:10 PM | Link to this

By Dennis November 26, 2006 04:51 PM {{{{Indeed, education went down the tubes starting in the Sixties when Liberals disposed of standards that had served us well, and replaced them with politically correct attitudes and curriculum.}}}} And those standards were?

That our kids were taught subject matter and not indoctrinated into the liberal agendas, foremost being the “evil” America socialist boogeyman.

By RW-(the original)

November 26, 2006 05:12 PM | Link to this

Wait!! Maybe there is something to this finch theory.

finch evolved into seeker while remaining present as finch and only when finch and seeker were discovered to be the same did they evolve into bon scott!

Well no I guess that just proves a dumba-ss can change it’s name, but remains a dumba-ss.

By I Voted For The War Before I Cut And Run From It

November 26, 2006 05:20 PM | Link to this

By Diogenes November 26, 2006 05:09 PM RW The creationists are working from faith based premises. Enough said.

Diogenes: How shallow you really are. How can something evolve that hasn’t first been created?

Why is this so hard to understand?

By RW-(the original)

November 26, 2006 05:21 PM | Link to this

Diogenes,

Listen you dishonest little snot, I said creationists AND Darwiniacs are operating on faith. Quit changing my freaking words and pretending you are quoting me.

Are you honestly trying to say that finches on the Galapagos Islands became all the other things on the Galapagos Islands while also remaining finches?

I’m sorry, but if that’s what you are claiming, this discussion is over. It would be more worth my time to argue with a walnut tree.

By Diogenes

November 26, 2006 05:22 PM | Link to this

RW (the original),

Here’s an interesting citation from Wikipedia:

The Voyage of the Beagle brought the survey ship HMS Beagle under captain Robert FitzRoy to the Galápagos on September 15, 1835 to survey approaches to harbors. The captain and others on board including his companion the young naturalist Charles Darwin made a scientific study of geology and biology on four of the thirteen islands before they left on October 20 to continue on their round-the-world expedition. The governor of the prison colony on Charles Island told Darwin that tortoises differed from island to island, and when specimens of birds were analysed on return to England it was found that many different kinds of birds were species of finches which were also unique to islands. These facts were crucial in Darwin’s development of his evolution theory, which was presented in The Origin of Species.

By Dennis

November 26, 2006 05:26 PM | Link to this

By Danish said, “That our kids were taught subject matter and not indoctrinated into the liberal agendas, foremost being the “evil” America socialist boogeyman.”

I could respond to this both as a teacher and a father with five kids in public schools (and disagree with you) but I would prefer staying to the original subject of funding for education.

If the funding of public education is over done or even adequately done, then by what measure do you say this?

And what do you think will happen if we cut back on these? Remember, I’m a taxpayer and property owner too.

You don’t have to be a blind conservative not to see it, just an ignorant one to deny it.

Dennis

By Diogenes

November 26, 2006 05:27 PM | Link to this

RW (the original),

Here’s another quote about the finches

13 endemic species of finch, popularly called Darwin’s finches

and here’s a link to the Galapagos Tortoise which was also part of the derived species on Galapagos that Darwin used as the basis for Origin of Species: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gal%C3%A1pagos_tortoise

By Diogenes

November 26, 2006 05:32 PM | Link to this

RW (the original)

Here’s a link to Lucy Australopithecus Afarensis. Read at your leisure; it’s interesting

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucy_%28Australopithecus%29

Here’s some commentary on her features:

“One of the most striking characteristics possessed by Lucy was that she had a bipedal knee structure, and molars and front teeth of human (rather than great ape) style and relative size, but a small skull and a small body. The image of a bipedal hominid with small skull, but teeth like a human, was quite a revelation to the paleoanthropological world at the time.”

Wikipedia, “Lucy (Australopithecus Afarensis)

By Diogenes

November 26, 2006 05:35 PM | Link to this

RW (the original)

Here’s the Wikipedia link to australopithecus africanus, a descendent of Lucy and a precursor of homo sapiens. Read at your leisure; it’s also very interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australopithecus_africanus

By RW-(the original)

November 26, 2006 05:37 PM | Link to this

Diogenes,

I’ve read The Origin of Species, I really don’t need your Wikipedia references telling me what is in it.

Why do you persist in giving references to what Darwin wrote to pretend you have proof that Darwin was right?

Just show me a little PROOF since you claim it is everywhere. I’ll even link it for you and maybe even teach you how to use the link feature here. After I do you can use that as proof of your blog evolution.

By I Voted For The War Before I Cut And Run From It

November 26, 2006 05:37 PM | Link to this

How the hell does this prove anything?

The governor of the prison colony on Charles Island told Darwin that tortoises differed from island to island, and when specimens of birds were analysed on return to England it was found that many different kinds of birds were species of finches which were also unique to islands. These facts were crucial in Darwin’s development of his evolution theory, which was presented in The Origin of Species.

By Diogenes

November 26, 2006 05:40 PM | Link to this

RW (the original)

Here’s a link to Wikipedia’s discussion of feathered dinosaurs and the relationshiop of dinosaurs to birds: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinosaurs#Feathereddinosaursandthebird_connection

By I Voted For The War Before I Cut And Run From It

November 26, 2006 05:42 PM | Link to this

By Dennis November 26, 2006 05:26 PM By Danish said, “That our kids were taught subject matter and not indoctrinated into the liberal agendas, foremost being the “evil” America socialist boogeyman.” I could respond to this both as a teacher and a father with five kids in public schools (and disagree with you) but I would prefer staying to the original subject of funding for education.

Actually I said that and was following up on Danish’s statement that you can follow the decline of educational performance based on implementation of the liberal agenda.

I agree.

You must think that education has improved since the 1960’s?

Really?

By Diogenes

November 26, 2006 05:42 PM | Link to this

RW (the original):

Here’s the link to Wikipedia’s discussion of dinosaurs, one of the topics of which is the link I sent you on feathered dinosaurs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinosaurs

By RW-(the original)

November 26, 2006 05:42 PM | Link to this

A plea to the blog:

Since Diogenes doesn’t believe me, would someone else please tell her that I won’t be swayed by references that claim someone else has proved something, therefor I should just believe it to be true without actually seeing the proof.

Someone might also want to tell her that I could have Wikipedia say that I was the Emperor of the Universe in about five seconds.

By Diogenes

November 26, 2006 05:44 PM | Link to this

RW (the original)

Here’s the link to Wikipedia’s discussion of punctuatted equilibrium

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punctuated_equilibrium

By Diogenes

November 26, 2006 05:46 PM | Link to this

RW (the original),

Here’s the Wikipedia link to Creationism. Their definition and description is most interesting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creationism

By Buy Danish

November 26, 2006 05:48 PM | Link to this

Dennis,

Are you related to Diogenes by any chance? Why are you misquoting me?

Why don’t you go back and read what I said, starting with my very first comment today instead of mischaracterizing what I said?

It’s pretty amazing to see that you are unable to explain how it is that education went down the tubes during decades of relative “peace”, since YOU are the one who brought the Iraq War up.

Your snotty little comments like “I pay property taxes too” is about what I expect from whiny liberals who are incapable of having a discussion without deteriorating into race-baiting and other irrelevancies.

Indeed, the fact that you have 5 kids and I only have 1 only illustrates that I am paying more and getting less from “the system.

By Diogenes

November 26, 2006 05:48 PM | Link to this

RW (the original),

Here’s the link for Wikipedia’s discussion of Intelligent Design. Their dismissal of it is interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_design

By RW-(the original)

November 26, 2006 05:49 PM | Link to this

Whoops, I’m too late. Diogenes has already evolved her linking skills. Can Lucy’s baby be far behind?

Andy,

That “governor of the prison colony” obfuscation as “proof” is one of the most hysterical things I’ve ever read by a Darwiniac trying to prove it’s point here.

By RW-(the original)

November 26, 2006 05:52 PM | Link to this

Diogenes,

Can you find the page that shows the fossil record of one species evolving into another or are we back to your hopeful monster theory?

By getalife

November 26, 2006 05:54 PM | Link to this

Allow me RW.

Diogenes,

You are arguing with someone who is never right and will not admit when he is wrong.

Intellectual dishonesty is a one sided debate technique used by the neonuts to act like they win something when actually they lose everything.

For example, Iraq is a disaster but they will never admit this obvious fact.

Glad I could help.

By Honu

November 26, 2006 05:55 PM | Link to this

Diogenes – how sad that you must search so many sites for your answers.

Here’s all you need:

www.bible.com

Paste it into your browser…all the answers, to all your questions — all in one place. ‘Tis the season for one-stop shopping.

(RW – was I a turtle first, then a bird or vice versa?)

(Hi Andy! Hope you are well and having a good weekend!)

By Diogenes

November 26, 2006 05:57 PM | Link to this

RW (the original)

Although Wikipedia is not the most detailed encyclopedia, it is easy to use and quick to find on the internet. That’s enough evidence to get you started for the evening. I’ll bring you a more extensive list of evidence tomorrow. If you are serious about a good faith discussion, then you will take the time to look at some of this and familiarize yourself with some of the basics. Tomorrow, I will try to pull into a coherent form some of the reading I’ve done over the past 30 years. Probably within a few days, I can provide you with sufficient evidence that, if taken seriously, should persuade even the most hidebound creationists that evolution is real. If there’s a coherent place you’d like for me to start, let me know, and I will focus our discussion around it. I’m sorry. When we started this good faith discussion, I didn’t realize that you would insult me for being unable to condense 30 years of reading into a few brief bytes. I presumed that you were willing to work at a pace which gave you time to think and question.

By Buy Danish

November 26, 2006 06:01 PM | Link to this

Diogenes,

RW if perfectly capable of doing research on Darwinism. He is very well-versed on the subject - I dare say much more so than you are.

He is not asking for your opinion on how “interesting” the questions are. He is asking YOU to PROVE your theories, which you state are undeniable facts.

By Diogenes

November 26, 2006 06:13 PM | Link to this

Rw (the original)

Where shall we start tomorrow? I’m more than willing to discuss this with you civilly. I’ll have a more things for you to look at tomorrow. I am, of course, of doing you the courtesy of presuming that you are willing to engage in a good faith discussion of the evidence I’ve presented to you today (I know Wikipedia isn’t the best source available, but it was quick and easy and provided a discussion of every topic I looked for). I know that it would be easy to dismiss it without giving it any thought, but I think you are toointerested in things intellectual to dismiss it without fair trial. We’ll continue tomorrow after I’ve had time to put together a more extensive list for you to consider.

The finches seem to be confusing you. The finches evolved into several species of finches. The tortoises evolved into several species of tortoises. Only the land-locked species evolved different species. Read it carefully before you reject it by trying to make it something it is not. I’ll bring you a good source on the finches tomorrow that should help you understand a little better. You made a comment at 454 that I find most interesting: “Adaptation to your environment is absolutely no proof of a species becoming another species.” That is precisely what it is. A creature that adapts to a new environment is on its way to becoming a new species. Why do bacteria develop immunity to the drugs we use? They adapt to their environment and become different species.

By RW-(the original)

November 26, 2006 06:23 PM | Link to this

getalife,

That wasn’t exactly what I had in mind, but thanks for the effort. You may be one of the few things Darwiniacs can hang their hats on to prove that evolution is a work in progress.

Now since you claim that I am wrong maybe you can tell me what I’m wrong about. You see in the debate over Darwin I haven’t posited a single theory, I’ve only asked for proof from people that claim that the proof exists. Are you saying that asking for proof somehow makes you wrong? You’ve always claimed to be someone that questions what is done by their government on their behalf. Should I call you wrong for doing that?

Diogenes,

I have two web sites that you are welcome to spend as much time as you like attempting to provide your proof.

They are hereand here.

Your condescending patronization that I lack the ability to understand what you have read over thirty years ignores one simple fact. That being that I’m not a novice to the topic and have probably read far more than you on the topic. Don’t think for one second that I dispute you from a position that lacks knowledge of the subject. Frankly I find it hard to believe that you don’t realize what an idiot you look like trying to say that something is proven fact, but it will take you thirty years of obscure readings to piece that fact together.

Most thinking beings would realize that if a scientific fact is that hard to explain it may very well not be a fact at all, but a hoax. I hope that one day you will be open minded enough to look at all sides of the issue. I already have.

By RW-(the original)

November 26, 2006 06:41 PM | Link to this

Diogenes,

Your finches aren’t confusing me in the least. I asked you to clarify your comment that the finches filled in the needs of the environment. Instead of doing that you lied again about what I said.

The fact that a rabbit knows to get under a shelter when it’s raining doesn’t prove that a rabbit became a kangaroo anymore than a bacteria that develops an immunity proves that it became an idiot blogger. It’s still a freaking bacteria, just like every other species on this planet stayed the same species from the the time it first appeared until the time it disappeared.

If you really want to start this tomorrow, start with the proof that any species ever became another species or don’t start at all. The leaps of faith that you are taking to deny the existence of a creator are the silliest I’ve ever encountered. Maybe you should get help from the fools at ml’s blog or maybe you should hit your knees and ask your creator for some guidance. I have no idea which way works for you or anyone else, I like facts and you don’t seem the least bit interested in them.

By Dennis

November 26, 2006 07:23 PM | Link to this

Danish, I apologize for the misquoting. It was not intentional and was due to a mix up in names above. My bad. Having said that, let those who will go on with the discussion of funding for education.

Education has never been adequately funded in this country. And I said on another reply (which may or may not get posted, probably due to my own error) this country suffers from the statements of old time conservative politicians, “They’re spending your money!”

To repeat something I’ve said above, The “arguments over school funding are nothing less than the same types of arguments that were used many years ago by the white power establishment against educating black children.”

Those politicians who complain loudest about public education are the ones most able to change the situation, because they control the purse strings, and they are some of the same people who want to privitize education (as tho that will improve anything).

We can wipe out public education and then watch this country stagnate, or we can adequately fund it.

You don’t have to be a blind conservative not to see it, just an ignorant one to deny it.

By Tony

November 27, 2006 11:55 AM | Link to this

To the people who quote the Heritage Foundation essay on the quality of education in voucher programs, please be warned. The statistics used to support their view have been carefully selected from the overall research reports. I have reviewed the data from the Cleveland study (Kim Metcalf was the lead researcher) and it is clear that over the five year period that was reported, the public school students had the same gains as the voucher students. “Lies, damn lies and statistics.”