Thinking Right

By Political Foreskin

October 11, 2006 09:33 AM | Link to this

Wooten’s article today is very provocative. He broaches the topic about how most Americans love to “stick it to the man”. (some americans love to stick it to the page, but that’s another employer-employee story)

Most employees of US corporations live in India, where those “eat more chicken” billboards are holy shrines.

In India, millions starve to death everyday amid all that beef on hoof.

Everybody gets creamation funerals in India. That’s why Chicago became India’s Mecca in 1880 when Mrs Oleary’s cow burned down the entire city.

Most people think that most atmospheric methane comes from cows, but in truth it comes from termites. That’s why wooden houses dont burn down, they explode.

Have your house checked regularly for termite infestation, and keep an pest company employee gainfully occupied.

Maybe he keeps his relationship with his employer going longer.

By Curious Observer

October 11, 2006 09:40 AM | Link to this

‘Morning, Jim.

The days of reciprocal loyalty have passed, and now employers and employees play separate survival games. I think we can mark the end of such loyalty at the beginning of the 1980s, when “downsizing” and reorganization became the catchwords of business. The elimination of company defined benefit plans, the minimizaton of other benefits, the use of contracting arrangements, and the emphasis on at-will employment are all hallmarks of a new employer-employee relationship in which neither party has any real loyalty to the other. The casualty of the new arrangement has been a mutually beneficial corporate culture.

Those who see most aspects of life as essentially a jungle survival contest will rejoice in the new relationship. I am not one of those. We have lost something of great national value. And while it would be desirable to have portability of benefits, we are unlikely to see it exercised to the fullest extent. Now, the name of the game is maximizing shareholder wealth and competing with cheap foreign labor. Milton Friedman and other laissez-faire economists may see the new arrangement as desirable, but I don’t.

By Barbara

October 11, 2006 09:42 AM | Link to this

Ah, Jim. I’ve been lamenting the downfall of loyalty in the job for years now. It truly is gone. I blame it as much on the employees as the companies. Everyone is more concerned about “me” and we’ve lost the sense of community, in our jobs as well as in our neighborhoods and the public square.

My first “real” job started in 1986. I worked for an Insurance company, and I just knew I would retire there. Unfortunately after 8 & 1/2 years, they put me, as well as everyone else, on an early retirement program, and they went out of business.

I moved on, and stayed with the next company 4 & 1/2 years before finding a better opportunity. During my 3rd job, I was a hiring manager. I took pride in the fact that my resume had very few “turnovers”, and I placed a strong emphasis on candidates that did not hop around. (If you had more than 3 jobs in 5 years, you wouldn’t even get a phone call from me.) Unfortunately very few people met my qualifications in that area.

I find it sad that there’s no sense of loyalty anymore, but I think that for the most part, the feelings are gone on both sides of the track. I do still believe you can get a better job, with better pay and better working conditions if you don’t hop around. I am now in my 4th job over 20 years. The first 2 companies I worked for are out of business, and the third is up for sale now.

By bella

October 11, 2006 09:46 AM | Link to this

Employees recognize that they are expendable. The next down-sizing, reorganization, right-sizing and — poof — there goes your job.

Sometimes it is the corporation’s fault, like Enron; sometimes not. After all competition, obsolescence and other economic shifts can bring a company to its knees.

But the one thing that is purely hateful is the way that upper management rakes in millions of dollars in salary, bonuses, retirement benefits, while slashing and burning the worker bees. That’s why there’s no loyalty.

By getalife

October 11, 2006 09:49 AM | Link to this

Clinton’s fault.

By getalife

October 11, 2006 09:56 AM | Link to this

Clinton’s fault

By time for the truth

October 11, 2006 09:59 AM | Link to this

Job security and company loyalty and awards of the “gold watch” for long service have also pretty much disappeared in the UK which actually has employment protection laws unlike here in GA where there is little in the way of protection for folks, especially those who work in small businesses. Nowadays short term contracts are the norm and increasing numbers of part timers to obviate the need for employers to offer benefits that long term employees get. This is particularly the case for shop workers in retail and lower level clerical and administrative staff in office work.

Its the same over here, US firms and corporations just utilise people when and where they’re needed and immediately chop them when they’re not. That’s the way of the world now as the third world increasingly undercuts the first world’s wages and production costs. As employees age its more expensive to keep them on the payroll as their wages increase so do their benefits and employee taxes payable, and younger kiddies are easier to manipulate and cheaper.

Roseanne joked in one episode after Dan got a civil service local council (city hall) job that he couldn’t be fired, even for incompetence. The imperial federal govt, state govt and the USPS seems to be among the last major ‘untouchable’ bastions for the incompetent and shamefully in too many areas racist quota staff who are incompetent but cant be touched because of ethnic sensibilities and screeches of racism if any one of a certain colour is even challenged on competence.

The world is a much harsher place now than it ever was for (life long) employment prospects. Back in the 1970’s and even early 80’s jobs were often for life, as certain massively tax payer subsidised British industries provided stability and demand was largely unfettered by such silly notions as competition and increasing productivity, much of it dominated by far left unions. But those industries after Baroness Thatcher introduced privatisation reforms and top level managers followed her visionary lead are now very different. Steel, coal, airlines, newspapers, water, electricity, gas (proper gas not gasoline), car manufacturing and so on are now no longer run under unionised restrictive practices and egregious union abuses and endless petty/political strikes are pretty much a thing of the past. Union power has thankfully been largely smashed in the UK and Red Robbo and commies who ran the National Union of Miners and their ilk are “no longer running the country” as they were before Maggie happily stopped them in their tracks.

By reality check

October 11, 2006 10:02 AM | Link to this

It isn’t just relationships between company and employee that have suffered. Corporate objectives used to be centered around providing value to the customer. Now corporate governance is completely focused on profit and return to the shareholder and especially senior management.

Companies like Home Depot are being run into the ground because senior management and corporate boards are cutting corners everywhere they can to boost short term profit. The CEO of Home Depot is making huge amounts of money even as employees, shareholders, vendors and customers get less and less value. He gets away with it because his directors are doing the same things at their companies.

By Mid-South Philosopher

October 11, 2006 10:03 AM | Link to this

Good morning, Jim,

Several points about employer—employee loyalty.

First, with NAFTA and the other globalization economic policies that have been embraced by both the Republicans and the Democrats, the manufacturing and high mass production jobs are quickly being relocated to areas of the world with cheaper labor markets.

Second, replacing the manufacturing and high mass production jobs are high tech information jobs, professions (except for teaching) and service crafts, e.g. plumbing, automotive technology, etc.

Third, the traditionally menial jobs that have been available in American society are now largely held by aliens, illegal or otherwise.

Fourth, the “middle class,” that throughout our nation’s history was never very large until post-World War II, is being trimmed back to pre-20th Century size.

Fift, businesses and corporations that used “benefits” in the 1950s and 1960s in the place of “wages” and “salaries” to retain employees are now finding that, due to the explosion of health care and retirement costs, those “benefits” are now costing them out the “wah zoo.” Consequently, they are taking steps that demonstrate something less than “loyalty” to those life-long employees.

To answer your question, “loyalty,” with respect to employer-employee relations is a thing of the past. And while I regret it, I don’t blame young people. It is a dog-eat-dog world.

My advise is to look out for Number One and One’s family. Don’t cheat, and don’t lie, but don’t take any crap either. Be the best at whatever your talent is and don’t be afraid to take chances to better yourself. Help the unfortunate, but not at the detriment of your own spouse and children. Take all you are due from the system, but don’t live on the “dole.”

Never let them see you sweat, and NEVER, NEVER vote for any politician for more than two terms!

By Van

October 11, 2006 10:03 AM | Link to this

Back in 1972, after a stint in the USMC, I started working for AT&T. The word was passed down, that if you kept your nose clean, did you job you had a job for life. I believed them. I was wrong. After 28 1/2 years, just 18 months shy of my 30 year retirement, I was outsourced to IBM. I was doing the same job at the same desk but for a different company - and I started working on another retirement plan.

I had deep loyalties to AT&T, I had witnessed up-sizing, downsizing, right sizing, redeployment, the 1984 breakup, the NCR farce and the Lucent spin off. I had found jobs within the company when times were good or bad.

The pain of the knife in the back is still there and I look at everything IBM does with suspicion.

The good side is my senority transferred with me, I kept my vacation days, no carry over, my benefits - good ones too, I can choose between AT&T’s offerings or IBM’s and switch between the two for the cheaper package.

I was to retire in 2002, now I have to work until 2014. I figure by then, my Social Security will be erased by the next democratic congress or destroyed by underfunding.

By getalife

October 11, 2006 10:04 AM | Link to this

Your government has sold you out for cheap labor and it is all Clinton’s fault.

By Political Mongrel

October 11, 2006 10:05 AM | Link to this

The bottom line and bean counters have become the driving force in so many major corporations, and the only loyalty is to the shareholders. What pockets of loyalty to employees are there is often the result of the attitudes of particular managers and administrators, not company policy. There are some notable exceptions, but it’s the rule.

One of the most disturbing trends lately is the gutting or replacement of pension plans. A company makes a contract with you for your retirement, you work 30-40 years for them, new management takes over or hard times set in, and you’re stabbed in the back. Defined-benefit is better for the employee but assumes stability, decency, and loyalty on the part of the employer. Defined contribution is maybe safer for the employee, but its very basis assumes little loyalty from the employer, and is unreliable and too prone to loss of value because of market fluctuations. Maybe it’s more realistic, but it’s indicative of a sad turn of events.

By getalife

October 11, 2006 10:08 AM | Link to this

No wonder you are so angry and bitter Van.

It is Clinton’s fault.

By Political Mongrel

October 11, 2006 10:09 AM | Link to this

getalife ==> getabrain

Corporations dumped you for cheap labor, not the government. Don’t forget that the Bush administration has been the only government in US history to regularly advocate the outsourcing of American jobs to other countries. NAFTA may have opened the door, but whose footsteps went through it?

By JohnF

October 11, 2006 10:11 AM | Link to this

Loyalty is a gone but it could come back…but the employers have to prove they deserve it. The companies that Jim mentions may deserve their accolades, but I know there are a lot of companies that think nothing of firing workers, even if it’s a short term or negligible effect on the bottom line. I worked for a major utility company in Atlanta (Not Southern Company) that let go plenty of 15, 20 and 25 year veterans so an Indian contractor could be brought in…(but do you think your gas bill will change for the better…no!)

Changing jobs is a pain, people…in the trenches anyway…rarely leave for more money, but instead start looking when conditions are unbearable or unchallenging. My attitude is get them before they get you..I left the afore mentioned utility right before the cuts.

However, there are some reasons not to reward longevity at a company…some people just can’t keep up with changes…business changes or technology changes…and if they don’t try to keep up, the company shouldn’t keep them out of charity..BUT…if those workers are trying to keep up,the company should try and help them.

By getalife

October 11, 2006 10:12 AM | Link to this

Political Mongrel,

It is Clinton’s fault.

Rove sent me the email to blame everything on Clinton.

Pure genius.

By Political Mongrel

October 11, 2006 10:17 AM | Link to this

Getalife,

Okay, it’s Clinton’s fault.

Thought you should know.

By KP

October 11, 2006 10:21 AM | Link to this

Of course, the loyalty is gone. In today’s climate, an employee may be loyal to the company, but if the company decides there needs to be headcount reductions, it doesn’t take into account how “loyal” an employee is. They’re only concerned with what that employee contributes. So why should an employee be loyal? If the company isn’t “contributing” enough to the employee in terms of money, benefits, security, etc, then that employee must look elsewhere for what he/she is lacking. Also, an employee won’t know or realize his “market value” if he stays at one place for 30 years.

I’ve been out of college 12 years and have only worked for 3 companies, and one of those was due to a job relo with my wife. I have friends who may have work at 6 companies in that same time. Some of their changes were due to layoffs, others to job-hopping.

It’s just the way that things are done these days.

By Rod

October 11, 2006 10:28 AM | Link to this

Ah, Jim’s at it again. He’s so paranoid about bringing up any political topic these days as there’s nothing to currently blame on the Democrats. Everything horrible in the country these days lies directly with the Republicans.

Having sex with pages - Republicans. A travesty in Iraq - Republicans. North Korea powering up - Republicans. Georgia Governor making an a* of himself - Republicans.

Why is this column still called Thinking Right? They need to rename it to: Thinking Scared of the Truth.

Suzie Homemaker could now run this post better than scared little boy Jim.

By Tom

October 11, 2006 10:31 AM | Link to this

The employer/employee relationship in this country changed when the “Personel” office became the “Human Resources” office. At that point employees went from persons to just another resource, like a desk or a computer. When companies adopted that mindset, it became much easier get rid of employees when business was bad, and get more of them when business was good.

When employees started getting layed-off en masse in the 80’s, the worker bees figured out that their companies would no longer look out for them. That’s when we started developing a “me first” attitude and lost any deep loyalty to our employer. This combined with increasing pay differentials between top managment and the average worker (40 times average salary in the 1980s vs. 400+ times in 2003), showed us that top corporate management was out for themselves as well.

You will still find intense corporate loyalty at companies that are intensely loyal to their employees, but it is getting rarer and rarer with each pasing year.

By Dusty

October 11, 2006 10:34 AM | Link to this

Jim,

I congratulate you and others who can maintain loyalty to a company. The form of loyalty has changed. You can have ethical loyalty to a company, but no longer is there a “family feel”for a company that is fairly large.

Communications and interaction are done by internet. Not only around the town or country, they go around the world.

Some of my family on one job, work at two offices in town or at home, maintain contact with a supervisor in Texas who is in turn working under someone in Missouri. Communications are great. As you are an advocate for internet education, you may not see any problem with this.

If you never met or conversed with your fellow journalists would you still have the same feeling of loyalty for AJC?

Well, maybe internet connections establish relationships better than I imagine. But I am not sure about company loyalty. That, to me, is a s-t-r-e-t-c-h……

By Renee

October 11, 2006 10:34 AM | Link to this

Hey TFTT - for someone who claims to be so smart and uses such big words, you’re not to bright on the spelling part - are ya?!?!

In your 9:59 post, you used the words: utilise, subsidised, privatisation, and unionised. Um, all of those words actually contain a Z. The last s that you used should be changed to a z.

Maybe you need to go back to reading Fun with Dick and Jane books to learn proper spelling.

By getalife

October 11, 2006 10:35 AM | Link to this

Here is the Corporate agenda

Cheap labor, NAFTA superhighway, and eliminating the borders is their goal.

By time for the truth

October 11, 2006 10:37 AM | Link to this

pimpHO rod once again pours out its vile moronic leftist bile and sneers abusively at almost everyone, just as we were having a reasonably polite discourse … its always fun showing this sad wanker rod just how pathetic it really is!!

just handing back what you hand out pinko scumbucket MoRoN rod!! …huge I hate liberals smirk

BTW … maggot brain is for ONCE completely correct - IT IS SICK WILLIE’S FAULT

By Curious Observer

October 11, 2006 10:43 AM | Link to this

Renee,

TFTT insists on using the British spelling of these words. It maintains his facade. And a failure to adapt to the spelling over here is a hallmark of a Manchester trade school dropout.

By jbmlaw

October 11, 2006 10:44 AM | Link to this

Good morning all, many thoughtful posts this morning, notably by Curious, TFTT, MidSouth, Van, Political Mongrel, John F, KP. The sanctity of the contract was totally undermined the first time someone uttered the phrase “anticipatory breach.” The attitude spread across society – “starter” marriage is a particularly disheartening development in the world of contract. Bankruptcy used to have a negative moral connotation. There is no logical reason the employment contract should be more sacred than others.

I think there is a difference in Gen Y, from those generations that went before. The employment relationship today is a mere casual hookup, and lasts only so long as it is reasonably convenient. I think we have an entire generation that does not think in terms of a career, but rather views life as a series of adventures. Different; I’m not sure that it is wrong, but definitely different.

By Van

October 11, 2006 10:44 AM | Link to this

With the government interferrence with business, is it any wonder that the bean counters became the ruling figures in any business?

There are so many temp agencies will help do the mundane payroll and other accounting work to help you comply with government regulations.

Imagine what it would be like for the mom and pop store without the government red tape.

By JK

October 11, 2006 10:45 AM | Link to this

“Is company loyalty gone?” No! CEO’s, directors, and top shareholders are still very loyal to their own financial interests. Bankruptcy? Nooooo problem. Lemme just dump all my stock before we let on we screwed up the company and cooked the books. Wha..? A 28-year employee gets gypped out of his retirement benefits? Um… why are you telling ME this? I have to go dump my stock now, and put the yacht in my wife’s name. SUCKERS!

By Rod

October 11, 2006 10:45 AM | Link to this

Ah, it’s so easy to get TFTT all worked up. She gave a weak and pathetic response to my 10:28 post. Whatever.

Bad news for you TFTT - everything I wrote is the truth and you know it! Jim’s turning into a scared little Republican. He’s slowly coming over to the dark side. I predict within a month this column will be titled Thinking Left.

smirk

By Conservative

October 11, 2006 10:47 AM | Link to this

Hey, when’s the last time Jim actually wrote a column about a political issue? Right vs. Left?

Is this blog turning into just another whatever topic for the day?

By Barbara

October 11, 2006 10:53 AM | Link to this

I really thought this topic could be discussed without injecting too much political finger-pointing, but getlost proves me wrong.

Thanks to those libs who kept on topic earlier this morning, until a certain grumpy old man (yes, you, getabrain) showed up.

By deegee

October 11, 2006 10:53 AM | Link to this

Van, are you bragging or complaining? So what if you have to work until 2014? At least someone is paying you a salary to sit around and blog all day. Is this what you do after you have emailed funny jokes, urban legends, GOP propaganda and inspirational testimonials to everyone in your address book? How do you have time to do all of this and research the issues that you weigh in on every day?

By time for the truth

October 11, 2006 10:56 AM | Link to this

In your 9:59 post, you used the words: utilise, subsidised, privatisation, and unionised. Um, all of those words actually contain a Z. The last s that you used should be changed to a z.

Renee - you snivelling colonial peasantish MoRoN … I AM ENGLISH - YOU KNOW - FROM ENGLAND … The OXFORD dictionary and its much older derivatives than Webster, that pathetic pile of misspelled so called American English shiite uses the letter ‘s’ not a ‘z’ for the words which I spelled correctly. The fact that you colonials (grin) choose to misspell words is hardly my problem … dont sneer at those who actually use proper/correct spelling love. LEARN FROM THEM!!

Maybe you need to go back to reading Fun with Dick and Jane books to learn proper spelling.

you certainly neeed to go back to playing with Jane’s Dick lovey … you’re a complete and utter cretin!! Your self centred bollocks is probably due to an excessive intake of aluminium flavoured crisps which are really chips that you witlessly call french fries!!

By JK

October 11, 2006 10:57 AM | Link to this

Mr. Wooten claims he is interviewing candidates today. I’ll be interested to see if he maintains his perspective as an objective journalist, giving fair and equal representation while delivering pertinet, issue-related facts, quotes, and supporting information (Hahahaha!), or if he just shills for his favorite, Republican, country-club, see-ya-at-church, thanks-for-the-donation buddies.

By irish65

October 11, 2006 10:58 AM | Link to this

Having been “Downsized” twice, once after 14 years and another after 11 years, I know that I am a lot more loyal that the employers. Loyalty has been my career downfall, and I am now a BellSouth employee. Let’s see how that works out.

By time for the truth

October 11, 2006 10:59 AM | Link to this

pimpHO rod is as predicktable as a poofy pinko homo page boy predator from Assachussets. I assume it keeps using “she” because its sex change is now almost complete …contemptuous I hate ALL liberals smirk

By getalife

October 11, 2006 11:00 AM | Link to this

Really Van,

Get to work before they fire you again.

Our government gives Corporations anything they want due to large donations.

It is bribery, pure and simple.

By getalife

October 11, 2006 11:01 AM | Link to this

Babs,

I am not the topic.

Shees.

By Barbara

October 11, 2006 11:11 AM | Link to this

Getlost, yeah, neither is Clinton…… That was my point.

TFTT, the colonial peasant was pretty funny…… I’m still laughing at that one.

Irish65, you may be in trouble pal…… A few of my kin work for Bell too. Not lookin too good for the good guys, if ya know what I mean. Good luck.

By Jim's a Distractor

October 11, 2006 11:11 AM | Link to this

Let’s see…

655,000 Iraquis killed since we got involved.

A known pedophile is allowed to run loose in the ranks of the GOP for fear of losing a seat.

National security consensus is that we don’t know what we’re doing in Iraq, and it’s getting worse.

The Taliban are regrouping in Afghanistan.

North Korea is bringing GW up on his “bring it on” statement.

Journalists are being killed by the mob in Russia.

Richard Armitage hasn’t been prosecuted yet for leaking Valerie Plame’s identity.

A senior member of Karl Rove’s staff had to step down due to her relationship with Jack Abramoff.

Osama Bin Laden hasn’t been found.

A majority of Americans do not have confidence in the President, the Secretary of Defense or the Speaker of the House.

Bob Ney will appear in court on Friday to admit to taking money for writing legislation.

Randy “Duke” Cunningham wants to blame the media for his corruption.

Sonny Perdue doesn’t know that the Dawgs are mediocre.

And you want to talk about laptops, company loyalty and jury duty in Fulton County. Amazing.

How about the irony of this for a topic:

REPUBLICAN CONTRACT WITH AMERICA

As Republican Members of the House of Representatives and as citizens seeking to join that body we propose not just to change its policies, but even more important, to restore the bonds of trust between the people and their elected representatives.

That is why, in this era of official evasion and posturing, we offer instead a detailed agenda for national renewal, a written commitment with no fine print.

This year’s election offers the chance, after four decades of one-party control, to bring to the House a new majority that will transform the way Congress works. That historic change would be the end of government that is too big, too intrusive, and too easy with the public’s money. It can be the beginning of a Congress that respects the values and shares the faith of the American family.

Like Lincoln, our first Republican president, we intend to act “with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right.” To restore accountability to Congress. To end its cycle of scandal and disgrace. To make us all proud again of the way free people govern themselves.

By time for the truth

October 11, 2006 11:14 AM | Link to this

and I am now a BellSouth employee

Please accept my deepest condolences for your loss!!

By Jim Wooten

October 11, 2006 11:18 AM | Link to this

JK, while awaiting the arrival of another candidate…

I am not an objective journalist. I write opinion. I have a point of view. It’s here for the world to see.

As for political topics, a concern of Conservative at 10:47, I am curious: Do most of the posters here wish for a debate on the hot political issue of the day? I don’t get a sense that a lot of minds are still open on Bush, Iraq, Foley or the Clintons.

By How ODD???

October 11, 2006 11:24 AM | Link to this

it is really quite odd, actually, that TFTT so adamently adheres to the “British” spellings yet claims to be such an American Patriot… goodness TFTT: either learn the language of your new home and embrace our culture or United has daily flights to London.

By Renee

October 11, 2006 11:29 AM | Link to this

I see TFTT is confused again. I’ll clear it up for you honey: You’re in the United States. Apparently you think you’re still in England. If you want to spell with King’s English, then you should go back home. However, if you want to stay in the U.S., you need to spell the “proper” way.

England kicked her out so she came to the U.S. Lucky us.

By getalife

October 11, 2006 11:29 AM | Link to this

Babs thinks I am the topic.

So I choose Iraq.

It is the ongoing disaster that keeps on giving more and more failures.

655,000 Iraqis killed.

2754 American troops killed.

44,749 injured.

300,000 Iraqis displaced.

We are looking at 1 million people effected by this disaster.

By Van

October 11, 2006 11:30 AM | Link to this

deegee,

Sorry your job with the plastic name tag is such a bore for you.

I work from home with two PC in front of me. It is called multi-tasking.

On one I have real work and the other I have this blog and others things, like my stock portfolio and world news.

So, doing both isn’t that big a strech for someone that knows how to work.

By deegee

October 11, 2006 11:39 AM | Link to this

Van, Can’t you use your company PC to blog? Wouldn’t that be more efficient than having to switch from one to the other?

By JK

October 11, 2006 11:43 AM | Link to this

Mr. Wooten, thanks for your response. Actually, I’d like to see my Congressman debate his opponent on the issues. You’re right about the bloggers. QUESTION: Do you think that an incumbent owes it to his constituents to show up for a debate he agreed to, if only to inform, and defend the specifics of his voting record of the past two years? My Congressman shows up for the three-minute speech deals, but no-shows on scheduled debates. It’s the first time in ages I’ve even had a CHOICE, and I’d love to get them side by side in a real debate. What do you think?

By Jim's a Distractor

October 11, 2006 11:44 AM | Link to this

Oh….here’s a real column for you Jim:

Lou Dobbs

By anonymousella

October 11, 2006 11:44 AM | Link to this

is company loyalty gone? i had to contain my laughter on that one. it’s gone. it’s dead. it’s 6 feet under and has been for some time.

there is no reward for loyalty any more. and youngsters just aren’t that married to their jobs. we want careers, but living a balanced life is far, far more important.

By Van

October 11, 2006 12:00 PM | Link to this

deegee ,

Company has a VPN connection - not good for bloging - thats a Virtual Private Network for those in mid-town.

The company firewalls are very picky

By harold

October 11, 2006 12:02 PM | Link to this

Harold says there is no company loyalty.

Harold will buy whatever the internets deem best when it’s time to buy something.

By Eric

October 11, 2006 12:04 PM | Link to this

Why should employees be loyal to a company who would screw them over in a heartbeat with layoffs, reduced benefits, downsizing, corporate scandal, outrageous and undeserved pay for CEOs and other top company officials?

Companies were stopped being loyal LONG LONG LONG before the employees did.

By JP

October 11, 2006 12:04 PM | Link to this

I’m thinking the “employment at will” doctrine is largely responsible. But hey, it benefits companies, so why wouldn’t a rightie like it?

By Van

October 11, 2006 12:06 PM | Link to this

Back to the topic,

If the Feds would unload all the excess burden from the businesses, some would have to remain, I am wondering if the businesses could go back to treating employees as people again.

The tax code changes had a great impact on employee loyality before the changes went into effect. Before, it was a company write-off to allow the employees off-site conferences, travel for meeting and education and such. Now it appears that write-off isn’t there or has sever limitations.

By harold

October 11, 2006 12:08 PM | Link to this

Harold says considering the examples set by baseball and american “football” professionals jumping ship for mo’ money at every chance, what was expected? Monkey see monkey doo.

By Doug

October 11, 2006 12:12 PM | Link to this

I work for a large pharma company located in Indianapolis IN. This upcoming year, the company is eliminating our HMO option and basically giving employees money in an account to pay the difference, up to a point. Many in our company are fighting this, but it’s going to happen. I wonder if I will be able to afford my prescriptions on this plan. If I question the ability of this plan to work, and I work for big pharma, how are people that have less or no plans going to pay for the high cost of our medicines?

By Expendable

October 11, 2006 12:23 PM | Link to this

Wooten’s question: “Is employer-employee loyalty a relic?”

I’ve been laid-off four times. The first time was when I was with the Atlanta Committee for the Olympic Games (AGOG). In 1994, two years after I began working at ACOG and two years before the games, Billy Payne decided that he could save money by outsourcing the function that our department was providing. So, he let the lot of us go (14 people as I recall). One of my co-workers who was laid-off had sold his house in Los Angeles and purchased a house in Atlanta to work for ACOG only nine months before being let go.

I found another job quickly, but my new employer laid my unit off in 1997. This employer had just acquired another company. They told us at the time that the layoffs were necessary to reduce some of the debt.

After changing careers to an industry that I wrongly anticipated would be relatively stable (technology) I went to work for a software company that went bankrupt in 2001. 90 percent of us had been let go a few months before the company filed for bankruptcy.

Layoff number four was, indirectly, by the Centers for Disease Control. I was an EDS contractor hired to work on a specific software project. I was told that the funding for this project was available for several years. One year after arriving, funding for the project was rescinded, and although EDS made a sincere effort to place me somewhere else, they ultimately had to let me go in 2002.

I haven’t been laid-off again, but unfortunately, that’s not the end of the story. I ended up with a software company that I found while they were in the midst of a hiring spree. They had increased the size of our department by 50 percent within three months of hiring me. However, six months after hiring me, upper management laid-off about ten percent of all employees, two of whom had been hired within the last six months. Luckily, I wasn’t let go this time.

I didn’t know what to make of these layoffs. If the company was financially strong, then why did management layoff 10 percent of their employees? Or, maybe the company was strong, but management had the attitude that people are expendable. So, you hire them when you think you might need them and fire them when you don’t. Either way, I looked for another job and got out at fast as I could.

I’m currently employed by a non-profit. I accepted a pay cut to get here, but stability is essential after being out of work for a total of twelve months during the time spent job searching between each layoff.

There’s so much more to say on this topic. Raises that increase more slowly than the cost of living. Reductions in health care benefits. Reductions in matching amounts with 401(k) plans. Limited pay increases with most promotions. Outsourcing. Runaway compensation growth for upper management relative to average employee pay increases. Hiring from the outside instead of promoting from within.

Answering Wooten’s question, I believe that the employer-employee relationship is a relic. But in my experience, the blame rests squarely with the employers.

P.S to Barbara @9:42. When looking at resumes trying to figure out who to interview, please be open-minded about the “job hoppers”. It might not be his or her fault. This isn’t your Dad’s economy anymore.

By getalife

October 11, 2006 12:23 PM | Link to this

Van,

How about getting back to work. You should be fired for blogging all day.

Lou Dobbs is the man and it is a good time to pay attention to our government.

The middle class should vote for a change.

By JD

October 11, 2006 12:34 PM | Link to this

All company loyalty is not gone. I work for a large recycling company south of Atlanta and have for 14 years. We have over 400 people with numerous employees that have more than 10 years service. 18 year vice presidents,20 year equipment operators, and 30 year supervisors shows loyalty and this is possible because the company genuinely appreciates their employees.

By time for the truth

October 11, 2006 12:36 PM | Link to this

By How ODD???

October 11, 2006 11:24 AM | Link to this

it is really quite odd, actually, that TFTT so adamently adheres to the “British” spellings yet claims to be such an American Patriot… goodness TFTT: either learn the language of your new home and embrace our culture or United has daily flights to London.

By Renee

October 11, 2006 11:29 AM | Link to this

I see TFTT is confused again. I’ll clear it up for you honey: You’re in the United States. Apparently you think you’re still in England. If you want to spell with King’s English, then you should go back home. However, if you want to stay in the U.S., you need to spell the “proper” way.

Dear Renee the diike and ODD the f a g h a g …

Your brainless ignorance is most pleasing. Its actually currently the Queen’s English _ the ‘sex’ of the ruling monarch determines that designation - which means when Charles finally takes over it will still be the Queen’s English.

I will type very s l o w l y for your colonial dumbarses … YOUR SPELLING IS PATHETIC AND WRONG … if you dont like the fact that I’m HERE then sod/off!!

I spell correctly - you have an entirely INFERIOR, INCORRECT WAY OF SPELLING!! I realise that being moronic yankkkees makes it that much harder for you to accept reality. The state of Georgia was named for an English King, it was ‘discovered’, founded and settled by we English/Brits, with English as the language and English common law and many many English/British place names as well as countless English family names of the folks who settled here.

By Van

October 11, 2006 12:38 PM | Link to this

getalife ,

Whats the matter, does someone with a job intimidate you?

Does a productive member of society upset you.

Or is it someone that has worked longer than you have been alive bother you.

By @@

October 11, 2006 12:39 PM | Link to this

Jim: Loyalty is a thing of the past. None from the employer resulting in none from the employee. I see it as an albeit unintended opportunity to address a failed Social Security program that remains unaddressed by a “certain” political party. Save for your own future, because the government can’t be relied upon.

I was employed for a short time by the loyal family of elected politicians in my county. There was an assurance of job security and appeared to be family oriented. Problem was, it was such a dysfunctional family, I chose to orphan myself. I’m now in special education in a private school. There’s job security because the demand is great. Due to a decrease in enrollment, I’ve volunteered to go part-time due to a decrease in the school’s budget. I was the only one with the resources to do so.

Why? Because my husband’s original employer initiated cutbacks. His solution to curtail any future financial strain? Make sure you’ve got a year’s salary in savings to offset the effects should the situation occur again. Would we ever have done that on our own had reality not hit us early? Nope!

My husband’s motto. “A failure to plan is a plan to fail.”

By Barbara

October 11, 2006 12:39 PM | Link to this

Expendable, yes, I realized that after I interviewed a few of them. Like I said, I didn’t have a lot of choices with long job histories. Some of my best employees were ones that didn’t really meet my specs for time in the job, and of course the very worst employee I ever hired had been in her job the longest. So you’re right; that’s not the tell-all, but it does generally speak to stability.

I agree with a lot of your points about lower benefits, lesser salary increases (gosh, remember in the early 80s when you got a 10% raise every year just for showing up?!?!?!) But I do blame employees too, because I’ve seen too many times those employees who will leave one job for another over a $.25 an hour raise. And, as someone mentioned earlier, when Personnel became H.R., and H.R. started “educating” employees that they could complain about everything, the entitlement attitudes ran amuck, and employers had little protection from frivolous accusations of employees looking to benefit.

I think it’s the “me” mentality that has eroded the loyalty. And that does include the few elite executives who push their way to the table to get the big chunk of profit-pie first, leaving less and less for the working stiffs. Couple that with the competition, everyone wanting to own more and more of the market share, and you wind up with lower wages for the average folks.

It’s sad.

And Jim Wooten, to go back to an earlier post, I am quite enjoying today’s topic. It’s a nice reprieve from the political event of the day. But I noticed that you still haven’t fixed the time delay. I gave you credit too soon. Our posts are still being delayed by 5 minutes. Very annoying.

By Hadden Knough

October 11, 2006 12:43 PM | Link to this

In addition to the business Executive class, we now have the business Consulting class. These are the highly educated, highly paid, generally lacking in any hands-on experience twerps who swoop in, turn your life upside down, then leave before the results of their reengineering efforts can be fully assessed.

Ultimately, the Consultants get hired into the Executive class so they can inturn hire in all their friends, thus displacing the original employees who are viewed as unneeded “legacy” roadblocks.

The newly minted Executives will leave for greener pastures before the results of any impactful decisions they might make can be full assessed.

Thus, the Executive and Consulting classes have no loyalty except to themselves.

As for the rest of us, why should we give a crap anymore?

By On the other hand:

October 11, 2006 12:44 PM | Link to this

It is sorely evident that Rod and JK don’t know Mr. Wooten at all. Scared?? Not hardly!

By jbmlaw

October 11, 2006 12:45 PM | Link to this

Dear Jim Wooten @ 11:18, I agree. JK @ 11:43, today, is a great example of what you say. She does not want to read jbmlaw’s political essays, and I don’t really care what the left has to say about Valerie Plame. On the other hand, I enjoy reading her arguments on nonpolitical matters. Today’s topic touches on economics, ethics, and sociology, and many of our regulars (and others) offer interesting posts.

However, to prove to the world I am still a jerk, TFTT and my other conservative friends, you will want to watch this commercial, linked on Drudge, from the producer of Naked Gun. http://www.drudgereport.com/flashma.htm Leftists, don’t watch, it will just make you angry.

By time for the truth

October 11, 2006 12:52 PM | Link to this

Barbara … some folks are evidently humourless (note correct spelling Renee et al).

I see a couple of peasantish colonial peasants are still ventilating their pig ignorance. One of these yankkkeee dolts even refers to “learning the language” - American English, such as it is, is merely a throwback to the days of inferior “Empire” ‘dialects’ that moronically sought to enviously and petulantly undermine the linguistic gold standard of standard BBC and The Times (the real one one in London) English - before the BBC became a vile leftist Bush hating bunch of _s.

effortlessly goading idjits like this is one of the more simple pleasures of this blog.

By getalife

October 11, 2006 12:52 PM | Link to this

Van,

Quit your whining and do some work.

Bunch of whiny wingnuts.

The delay too long.

Whhaaaaa.

Shees.

By getalife

October 11, 2006 12:55 PM | Link to this

jbmlaw,

How is Drudges’s prank thing working out for you?

Idiots.

By You People Scare Me

October 11, 2006 12:55 PM | Link to this

Van @12:06 “The tax code changes had a great impact on employee loyality before the changes went into effect. Before, it was a company write-off to allow the employees off-site conferences, travel for meeting and education and such. Now it appears that write-off isn’t there or has sever limitations.”

This kind of BS from Van and others is so f—-ing irritating to those of us who actually care about this country. Some of you guys just repeat the crap you hear in the media or from your internet myths without any regard for whether or not it’s true. Or, if it bolsters your point, you just make it up.

First, there are no restrictions on the deductibility of legitimate expenses for conferences, travel, education and such. The IRS did modify their rules a few years ago in an attempt to prevent businesses from taking advantage of meal deductions. Here’s a quote from the IRS:

“You cannot deduct expenses for meals that are lavish or extravagant. An expense is not considered lavish or extravagant if it is reasonable based on the facts and circumstances.” (See IRS publication 463 for more information on travel, entertainment and transportation expenses).

Second, all employers are subject to the same IRS rules. In addition, those rules are imposed by the IRS - not the employer. So there’s absolutely zero logic in the statement that employees become less loyal to employers because of the kind of changes in tax laws that Van describes. Of course logic is no more an obstacle to the Vans of the world than facts when it comes to promoting their precious me-first ideology.

By Assclowniis Maximus

October 11, 2006 12:59 PM | Link to this

If the government would allow the free market to work, without hampering it with regulations, we all would have healthcare and long-term employment due to the generosity of our employers.

It is clear they would share the wealth with their employees, except for the government sanctioned stealing that forces them to do otherwise.

@ Expendable,

It seems YOU are the common thread, in all the job difficulties you have. Maybe if you had a better attitude or showed more loyalty to the company (like taking a paycut to cut costs, thus filling the coffers of investors like myself)or stopped blogging during working hours you could hold a job for more than a few months.

You have met the enemy sir, and it is you.

By time for the truth

October 11, 2006 01:00 PM | Link to this

jbm

I had already heard about this hilarious masterpiece of political electioneering, my only real criticism is that it simply doesn’t go FAR ENOUGH in its legitimate criticism and fact based, sardonic mocking of incompetent, sleazy, cut and run, blame America demoNcrats!!

Your link will hopefully irk a few of the more sheltered cut and run demoNcrats on here who are usually not exposed to the real world.

perhaps morons like renee and odd can explain why sheltered is spelt correctly in the US and centred is not!

By tracyb

October 11, 2006 01:02 PM | Link to this

To Barbara: I’m so sorry most people meet YOUR standards. Let’s just forget that there are a multitude of factors that could cause someone to change jobs over the course of a 5 year period. Health, Downsizing, Kids, etc. the list just goes on. Of course, I’m sure you think it’s better to hire someone that was at their last job for 10 years and never advanced or changed positions. Boy, they have a lot of potential don’t they?

For Jim: Yes, the employee/employer loyal relationship is dead. For one, companies do not care one little bit about the welfare of it’s employees. You are a number to them and when it comes time to increase profitability the first thing they do is cut people. People with lives and families and bills; all of which corporate doesn’t care about. Bottom line rules.

From an employee standpoint; people want to get ahead and if it’s not going to happen at one place, why not go to another? Why is this a bad thing? I think a persons first priority is to themselves and their family. Which brings about a second point on this; people want work life balance and if one company has you working 65 hours/week and another works people 40, who would you work for? The answer to that one is pretty simple as well.

By deegee

October 11, 2006 01:02 PM | Link to this

Van, There is a reason why your company’s firewalls are picky. The company makes a policy to block internet traffic on specific ports based on a set of rules. The rules reflect what the company considers to be an appropriate use by employees of company resources,i.e., time and bandwidth. If your blogging is blocked by your firewall then what makes you think that your company would appreciate your backdoor approach?

By Barbara

October 11, 2006 01:02 PM | Link to this

TFTT, the way I see it, it’s just good old fashioned bragging rights. We came from England, so you’ve got the “upper hand” on the heritage. History is just that. It’s not insulting, it’s not personal, it’s nothing to get mad about; it’s just factual accounting of the past and how we got to where we are today. I don’t understand why so many get so wound up about it. I think your “colonial” comments are just fine, and I happen to be one. (Although my family may have been some of the very first settlers. We were here before the Waahr of Northern Aggression(pronounced with a southern accent) and my great, great great grandmother was a pure Cherokee indian from southern GA.)

Those that can’t take the joking from the English are just poor sports. To heck with ‘em.

By Chad

October 11, 2006 01:04 PM | Link to this

Companies are looking out for profits and will do what they can to preserve/enhance them. Doesn’t matter how long you’ve been there, they’ll cut you loose if it came down to it. Having any other attitude towards your company is dangerous. I bust my butt for my company right now, but I keep my eyes open.

I wish I could find a job where I could work for 30 and retire at 52, 53. On the other hand though I wonder how many people doing that at these big companies get into a comfort zone and really aren’t as productive as some ‘fresh blood’ who would come in and may not just be doing what they need to do to get to the 30 year mark. I know I’m unfairly categorizing a lot of hard workers by saying that, but I think that mentality (I saw it, I worked for a few years at BellSouth) is the reason why there’s less and less of that.

Relying on a company to take care of you for 30 years in this day and age is foolish I think. Keep working hard and looking to improve yourself, and yeah you’ll probably switch jobs. It’ll keep you fresh though and keep you growing professionally, and you’ll be better off financially than you would sitting at a desk waiting for year 30 and a full pension.

By MrLiberty

October 11, 2006 01:06 PM | Link to this

Loyalty is a 2-way street. Blind loyalty to a company will get you nothing but unemployed.

Part of the problem with today’s employment situation can be traced as with most major problems in our society - to government meddling. Labor laws that make it impossible to fire someone have resulted in insulting things like background checks and drug screens even for employees with dozens of years experience at previous jobs. Tax laws, other employment laws, the ADA, the EEOC, and other horrific intrusions into the worker-management relationship have further destroyed both companies and employees alike. India is only attractive to companies because our government has made america so unattractive (wow, they seem to do that with every aspect of our country don’t they?). Eliminating taxation and regulations would have the benefit of keeping jobs in america, and enabling more individuals to start up companies as an alternative to just being worker bees.

Individual ownership of insurance and retirement would further enhance the position of the employeed.

By Angry

October 11, 2006 01:07 PM | Link to this

Company loyalty disappeared when it became commonplace for companys to “downsize” thousands of employees.

Most people are no fools. They know that a company in GA can fire you, or lay you off, or “downsize” you for any reason whatsoever, even if it has nothing to do with your job performance. If companys do not have loyalty to the employee, why should the employee have loyalty to the company?

Yes, I was “downsized” by Coca-cola a few years ago when we got a new VP of the division and he wanted to reduce payroll to make his division look better on the books. I always had gotten great annual reviews and had always done my job very well. So, I was let go.

Yes, I got another job. However, after a couple of years I heard that the VP had run his division into the ground and was “downsized” himself. It was too late for me, though. I learned the no-loyalty lesson very quickly! Screw Coca-cola!!!!

By time for the truth

October 11, 2006 01:12 PM | Link to this

feminazi JK

your intellectual dishonesty is absolutely astounding lovey … you noisily demand a debate - but what is the point? you are a self confessed die hard demoNcrat voter - and nothing will change your mind, judging from your endless pro cut and run appease the enemy hate Bush etc posts on here.

Your GOP man clearly has the pulse of his constituency, so why waste his VALUABLE time arguing the toss with some wide eyed badly bewildered lefty Bush hating arsewipe who stands no chance of winning. He wisely shows up for the 3 min events, to get his message out. But his message, as even you admit, is clearly well received as he is usually “unchallenged” which if nothing else shows rare, uncommon wisdom by demoNcrats.

Honey bunnykins you are just too stupid to realise that in his constituency voters like YOU DONT COUNT … so get over it!!

Just like the GOP voters dont ‘count’ in most leftist constituencies that are safe seats for congressional treasonous pinkos.

By Barbara

October 11, 2006 01:13 PM | Link to this

tracyb, if you bothered to read my whole post, you would see that I acknowledged some of the same things you mentioned. And I’ve hired plenty of people without the stable job history. Get a grip. But the bottom line is, the hiring manager does get to set the standards, and the candidates damn well better meet them, or they don’t get hired.

You’ll be happy to know I am no longer a hiring manager big, huge, relieved SMIRK!

By Dana

October 11, 2006 01:20 PM | Link to this

I like the topic - politics aren’t the only game in town folks. And not the only concern on MY mind!

As for employee/employer loyalty, well, I think it’s gone for good. There have been some excellent points in here today. Personally, I would LOVE to have worked for the same company for my entire career. Hasn’t happened. I have to laugh - Barbara wouldn’t even talk with a candidate who “job hopped” but how did she determine that the person WANTED to change jobs, or had to leave due to incompetance? I’ve tended to be longlived at most jobs, but I’ve been laid off twice and changed jobs to follow my husband’s military career. Now I work for a company that is under threat of a hostile takeover - no one knows from one day to the next if we’ll have jobs.

At least two posters pointed out the HUGE impact that SOX has had on public companies. And another pointed out that public companies seem to care much more about stock holders than they do about customers. And I think they are correct. As for employee loyalty… Well, it’s a tad difficult to be loyal to a company who (and the majority of them do this) spend HUGE amounts of money to bring in “new” blood, but little at all to retain hardworking employees. I’ve been fairly lucky, I’ve gotten some very attractive promotions and pay-raises in my career, but I see corporate wastefulness every single day and it makes me sick. Then again, I see employees who have a “They OWE me” mentality rip of employers in some pretty inventive ways. I think alot of it comes down to greed and a lack of personal responsibility and or integrity. As stupid (mm - maybe childish is a better term) as it may seem, folks, if YOU didn’t pay for it, don’t take it home! This “rule” is applicable to the little cheapskates who rip-off sweetener packets from the break room all the way to departing VP’s who take thousands of dollars in hardware and software when they are escorted out the door.

By time for the truth

October 11, 2006 01:21 PM | Link to this

Barbara,

I’m not “mad” (you mean angry I think - not mentally unbalanced like all liberals are) at all, I’m just having fun winding them up and they cant stand it.

When I talk to folks back home on the phone I make a point of using American phrases/terms - just to gently wind them up - and it does wind some of them up, every time.

I’ve been told to go back home several times by lefties here, - not just on this forum either - they are very intolerant, I guess (that’s not actually a guess but an astute observation) they dont like my politics very much.

I’ll be voting GOP again next month. The lady in my local voter registration office is GOP. Shame she cant refuse to register demoNcrats, but as they will lose yet again in GA it wont really matter.

By Andy

October 11, 2006 01:22 PM | Link to this

The boss of any group of employees is usually a poster child for the peter principle. It’s difficult to assess the damage that most bosses do to employee moral and loyalty.

Few bosses ever deserve their promotion to be boss, and most are time wasting incompetents that got to be boss because they were willing to break the law that the company insisted they break in order to avoid either heavy costs or legal problems. Bosses become bosses usually because they are weak, spineless, lazy, and immoral losers with bad breath.

Take car sales managers. They break our contract laws every day. There are crooked ways to doctor a contract right before the consumers eyes. I should know. I sold cars for twenty years.

There is a way to play a shell game with the car’s rebate, where they take it all, and you get nothing. (I’ve seen that shell game fifty times, and I still cant spot it, it has to be shown). It’s true. How to spot it? Watch out for the phrase, “We have to add the rebate back in for taxes, and then we subtract it back out down here….”

If you are buying a car, you are getting ripped off. period.

So, if you have a boss you hate, check him out real close, and you will find a way to bring him down legally, because you can bet he’s breaking the law somewhere, somehow.

By Andy

October 11, 2006 01:24 PM | Link to this

I’d like to submit my resume to Barbara and request that she stfu. I have great references: tftt, realisp, @@, and RW. I’ve told them to stfu too.

So, if you do decide to hire me and stfu, I want to thank you, and promise to be a loyal employee and long as you stfu.

By William

October 11, 2006 01:28 PM | Link to this

Where did the loyalty go…

Plain and simple. I am 33 years old. I have 27-32 years of work left in me before retirement. I refuse to budget social security benefits into my retirement planning as that last vestige of a bygone era will be long gone by then. I am therefore the engine of my own retirement. That engine will only run so long as it receives fuel. My employer is nothing more than fuel for retirement. Whosoever provides the most retirement fuel receives my labor in return.

Simple isn’t it? My loyalty is compromised by my limited work lifespan and the incessant taxation imposed on my saving efforts. My income is taxed, capital gains are taxed, my property is taxed and when I die, my corpse will be taxed lest I leave something behind for my family.

My company pays me just enough to keep me from quitting and I generate just enough profit to prevent them from firing me. I do this knowing that regardless of my individual effort, I shall receive the same paltry 3% raise as the fellow down the hall who squanders his family time on the corporation. I know that if the company can find someone to do my job for less money, I will be out, and the company knows that if I find a better paying job, I will be out. I drive a 10 year old car, have no debt, and have liquid savings enough to last 16 months. I am not beholden to a taskmaster nor subject to the fear of economic ruin that many mistake for company loyalty.

This is the difference in Gen Y, or X, or whatever I am supposed to be. We grew up with Watergate, Clinton, Enron, and leveraged buyouts. We have watched our paychecks shrink with increased health costs and taxes. Our commutes are longer and our home costs higher. We have seen our governments fail to protect us from financial downfall. We know what the Boomers are going to do to Social Security and know that the maximum annual 401K contribution allowed by law is insufficient to provide for the future. We do not plan to simply sit in a cubicle for 30 years trusting someone else to take care of us. We are taking charge of our own financial security. We are succeeding not because of our employers or government, but in spite of them.

By Lindya

October 11, 2006 01:30 PM | Link to this

Thanks Jim, I always love reading your column. I hope you’re still working out! Take care, L

By time for the truth

October 11, 2006 01:38 PM | Link to this

Wanker Andy,

do you like and sex and travel?

if so F… OFF now!!

Wanker Andy I would be willing to hire you to taste the liquid oxygen we use in my business - we need a taster to see if its gone stale or not …huge I hate ALL lefties smirk

By Barbara

October 11, 2006 01:39 PM | Link to this

TFTT, I wasn’t saying you were mad; I was talking about the people who keep taking shots at you just for being from England. (Yeah, I mean angry, but mad is the word I hear more often, and yes, it certainly has a more sinister meaning when referring to certain individuals.)

Dana, I thought we were buds!?!?!?!? You’re absolutely right. I probably passed up some winners. But I’m sure I weeded out a bunch of losers too. Lots of employers make decisions based on personal bias though. As I think I’ve shared before, I was almost a high school drop-out. I certainly didn’t finish college (2 years of night school while I worked during the day was enough for me!) At my last job (the one where I was a hiring manager), I got a new boss who told me that I wouldn’t be in my job if he had been the one making the decision because I did not have a college degree. I said “But I’ve been in this job for seven years, and doing a damn good job!” and he said, “yes, and I can’t think of anyone who’s ever done better, but if it had been my decision, you wouldn’t have even been interviewed”.

There are plenty of reasons employers opt not to interview or hire, including job history, education, etc. But to answer your question about how I determined their reasons for looking or reasons for leaving the last job, it went like this: 1) read the resume; 2) phone interview; 3) personal interview; 4) check references - at least 3 of them; 5) second interview including speaking with at least 2 of my colleagues; and 6) hiring decision. And I still didn’t get it right 100% of the time. but I had a pretty good record.

By Barbara

October 11, 2006 01:48 PM | Link to this

Hey Andy, you’re hired! I’ve been looking for someone to KISS MY A*!!! and you’re perfect for the job. So do it! NOW!

By Dana

October 11, 2006 01:50 PM | Link to this

Barbara - We ARE - I just took the comment at face value and popped off a response. I’ve had some issues with employees lately, some I hired, some I inherited, and, well, frankly I’m a tad worried about my current employer… So I guess I am a bit sensitive to the thought that I might miss out on job opportunities based on a layoff 2 years ago and another one looming.

By How ODD??

October 11, 2006 01:52 PM | Link to this

Obviously, TFTT, you missed something. I don’t care where you live, as you are completely irrelevant to my life. I was merely echoing the blind “Speak our language or go home” crowd one so often finds on this blog.

Wound up, indeed… you seem to have a bit of short fuse.

By Assclowniis Maximus

October 11, 2006 01:57 PM | Link to this

Dana,

You are wrong those vp’s are entitled to take thousands in software and anything else they can finagle.

When I was a young lad I learned quickly it is better to be a manager bee who is a good BS artist than a hard-working peon. The political BS artist is always rewarded.

When i was peon i watched many jobs get cut from a company I was working at (my job wasn’t cut). The company claimed these layoffs were extremely necessary - about a week later I watched thousands off dollars worth of high quality, EXPENSIVE furniture and paintings being brought in for the new CFO. (Who also got a completly renovated office, new rug etc.)

i learned quickly which side off the fence to be on!

By Barbara

October 11, 2006 02:05 PM | Link to this

Dana, that’s a bummer. Here’s how you would have overcome it with me (can’t speak for the rest of the hiring managers). Professional cover letter stating up front that you were facing a layoff (or, if not the current job, then on the resume - where you list job history, list “layoff” beside the dates or employment). I also looked for well written cover letters explaining the candidate, and I looked for the candidate to respond directly to the job description specs with their abilities. You can get past the job history thing, especially in this day and time. Most hiring managers know that they’re not going to have a lot to choose from if they are looking for long-time employees.

Based on your tones just on these blogs I’d say that you could talk yourself into a second interview anywhere. You seem to have the right attitude (which you probably know is hard to find, since you mentioned you have ees too.) Good luck. I hope you find something you like. I went for no employees last time I changed jobs. And I LOVE it!

By valerie

October 11, 2006 02:10 PM | Link to this

I was a loyal employee of Bank of America for 20 years. Then we merged with Fleet Finance and our whole department was downsized because the new VP thought that the NC department could do a better job.
I was lucky to have found another job within 2 weeks.

I’m not upset about being laid off, but at the way that it was handled. My back still hurts from the knife wounds.

By time for the truth

October 11, 2006 02:11 PM | Link to this

I was merely echoing the blind “Speak our language or go home” crowd one so often finds on this blog.Wound up, indeed… you seem to have a bit of short fuse.

three times now you’ve posted on topic YOU (jointly) started and made yourself look real stupid on.

humourless people like you ALWAYS take this stuff way too seriously, as your latest embarassing response indicates. all most folks actually do on here is jocularly play with words/images etc - jolly well done for not having a hissy fit though.

By time for the truth

October 11, 2006 02:15 PM | Link to this

Hey Andy, you’re hired! I’ve been looking for someone to KISS MY A!!! and you’re perfect for the job. So do it! NOW!*

DON’T FORGET TO *always STFU though wanker andy!!

By NoAmericanTaliban

October 11, 2006 02:17 PM | Link to this

Company / Employee loyality is a two way street. The days of working for one company your entire life are in the history books. During the 80’s a number of companies were dumping on people as much as they could. Mergers,layoffs,acquisitions, corporate welfare, resizing, lack of oversite, bean counting mentality, re-engineering, cronyism, global competition, executive greed, lack of legal enforcement of exitsing laws, & corruption, have all been part of the decline of loyalty. To survive an employee must think of their self-interest and not be dependent (loyal)to anyone company. Enron had a company culture of loyalty - employees would work long hours, forgo vacation, etc. and look what it got them. Focus on your family & friends. How many of your bosses will be at your funeral? and remember - when a company’s budget contains a large increase for schredding machines - run.

By getalife

October 11, 2006 02:23 PM | Link to this

Lets face it folks, we are talking to the minority wingnut base here.

They gobble up Rove’s bs and swallow w’s lies.

We must dumb down the rhetoric to stoop to their level.

Just lie and blame others for them to understand.

By GOP - Party of Pigs

October 11, 2006 02:24 PM | Link to this

Typical GOP whoremama - click here - almost as big a slut as Andie

By Malcolm

October 11, 2006 02:24 PM | Link to this

The best way to succeed in the wake of a disloyal employer who laid you off, is to start your own business. An unfortunate circumstance can be a great incentive to do just that. Is your glass half empty or is it half full? It depends on your self-confidence.

It’s not for the faint-of-heart though. It comes at a cost in both capital & family time. If your kids are interested, which mine are, it can be a great inheritance for them.

My advice to young folks is get into a trade. Don’t be misled into believing that a professional career is all it’s promised to be in today’s corporate world.

I have the utmost respect for the trades. Just try fixing your own car, wiring your own house, repairing your own plumbing. When you realize you missed out, you’ll find you’re having to hire someone who can pretty much name his own price.

As an employer my employees better be willing to give 110%, if not, you’re out the door. Give me 110 and I’ll give you a more than fair return. You’ll be amongst my most valued employees. I’ll want to keep you on the payroll.

By GOP - Party of Perverts

October 11, 2006 02:25 PM | Link to this

Looks like the women are deviants, too

By Dana

October 11, 2006 02:26 PM | Link to this

Barbara - thanks for the kind words, advice and encouragement!!! (GREAT response to Andy btw!!!!)

Assclown - I sure hope you aren’t owning up to being a theiving, political BS artist! How can any of us complain about the decline in “our” world if we are so fast to join in on it?

I’ll keep my “average” house, my regular tv and vacations to the NC coast, along with my integrity, over the big house, plasma tv and vacations to St. Barts without my integrity any day of the week.

By A permanent IT contractor

October 11, 2006 02:34 PM | Link to this

Having spent 10 years in one of the least likely industries to be loyal, IT, I have found that the pendulum keeps swinging.

In the late 90’s older people were losing their jobs to recent graduates from Ga Tech. Those of us who had developed our careers over 5 years or more were seeing recent graduates promoted to positions they were unqualified and unexperienced to handle.

Stock options were a way to cement loyalty in the late 90’s. IT folks were job hopping and sometimes gaining 15-20k raises over a few job hops.

The IT bubble burst and everything fell apart. Stock options were worthless and outsourcing to India was rampant.

I took off for 2 years and did something else.

Now I have been back as a contractor for 1 year now. A few things that are surprising: 1. Most IT jobs are contract to permanent 2. Most contractors have no health care 3. I get 5 head hunters a week looking for me. I have to turn them down since I am working. Most want to contact me when the contract is up. 4. Most of all my employer checks up with me a couple times a week and has actually asked me if I am happy and hoped what I would not leave.

So this is where it is now. The workforce I am part of is demand heavy and because of past issues with full time employment, its more appealing to just stay as contract labor. We get something new every 3-12 months and so no need to be a ‘team player’. Yes I care about team cohesion, but its not going to happen because everyone is a contractor. Most of my co-workers are on work visas from India. The team loses or gets a new person every 3 weeks.

This is the rule not the exception with the last 3 contracts I have worked.

So loyalty is for personal relationships, not business.

By Shooter

October 11, 2006 02:42 PM | Link to this

At this point in time there is no LOYALTY or morality in the business world. If you need loyalty get a dog….. I believe NAFTA killed the little that was left.

By time for the truth

October 11, 2006 02:44 PM | Link to this

[more corrupt demoNcrat snouts in the trough] (http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/10/11/ D8KMJ8I00.html)

By time for the truth

October 11, 2006 02:46 PM | Link to this

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/10/11/D8KMJ8I00.html

By Conservative

October 11, 2006 02:46 PM | Link to this

Sounds like a bunch of whining employees too scared to do their own thing. If you don’t like the way such “evil” corporations treat you, why don’t you just man up and start your own company and then you can dole out huge lavish benefits to everyone with health insurance and nice fluffy defined benefit plans, etc. See how long you stay in business. Defined benefit plans are a stupid idea along with employer sponsored health ins. It takes away your personal responsiblity for your own wellbeing. YOU are the one who needs to plan for your own retirment anyway…not anyone else. YOU are responsible for YOU. Why would you make that someone elses responsibility? Its just one less thing you can control when you do that.

When you run your own business, you can decide how things are done but if your too scared to do it on your own, then you get what you get.

By How ODD??

October 11, 2006 02:49 PM | Link to this

TFTT: you were attempting to amuse? Are you aware that your caustic sense of humor doesn’t translate very well into this blog?

(Alas, neither, apparently, does mine)

By ht

October 11, 2006 02:54 PM | Link to this

William - that’s a pretty accurate portrayal of the Gen X experience in the work force.

Jim - your employer is pretty good to the 25-yr-club members. Used to be a great company to work for. Now I’m sure you’re not blind to all the layoffs, restructing and downsizing that’s going on with good people with little to no warning. Or the ones that have been there so long that instead of getting fired, they’re ‘moved’ to a new, lower responsiblity, humiliating job that they take to keep their pension. Hard to remain loyal to a company when that’s going on. Your company is not unique in these practices either.

By Van

October 11, 2006 02:56 PM | Link to this

A permanent IT contractor,

Ah, Yes, I remember the days of the stock options - I had a bundle and for about 30 seconds they were good. Then they went underwater forever - do you want to know what happens to worthless options when the company does a 10 for 1 reverse split - toilet paper becomes more valuable.

By Cal

October 11, 2006 03:04 PM | Link to this

Loyalty! What loyalty. When corporations move jobs overseas, outsourcing, downsizing and corporate ethic issues. Congress and the current administration place businesses values over the America worker. Loyalty, what loyalty!!!

By singlemom

October 11, 2006 03:10 PM | Link to this

Wow, alot of anger up in here.

I love my company, love my job, and I have been here for 14 years, and I plan on retiring from this company. We are a small company, less than 15 employees. 10 of us have been here well over 13 years (a few hit 17 years this year). We have AWESOME benefits, a 401(k)that the company contibutes to, and numerous days off every year. This company even went as far as to give each employee an extra “allowance” each month to offset the cost of gasoline right after Katrina hit, and gas prices zoomed up. Even though it is taxable, how many other companies did that for their employees.

We are like a family. If one person is out, others step in and help out. Sure we bicker back and forth, but like I said, we are a family and watch out for each other.

We are loyal and the company is loyal back to us.

By Van

October 11, 2006 03:11 PM | Link to this

Conservative,

Is it any wonder why we have a cut and run liberal workforce? When the going gets tough - they leave.

Just like the war on terror so is their work habits - they don’t like it so they run home to mommy.

Of course I am only talking about the cronic job hoppers and not those that have fallen victim to all the (pick the word)sizing, layoffs or jobs going overseas.

By Rod

October 11, 2006 03:16 PM | Link to this

What a joke!!! At 1:21, TFTT called other people intolerant!!! Now if that ain’t the pot calling the kettle black!

By the way, I’ve seen TFTT getting all upset on here because Mexicans aren’t speaking the language (speaking Spanish/Mexican) and tell them to speak like we speak or go the hell home. Apparently, she doesn’t think this applies to her!

(big smirk - caught her in her own trap!! Oh, she’s so easy - course thats what her pimp daddy says too!)

By Van

October 11, 2006 03:18 PM | Link to this

deegee,

Interesting thought, far off base and wrong, but interesting.

No, the real reason is I keep the companies work on the company PC and my stuff on my PC. Makes it real simple.

Anyway, getting around the corporate firewalls would be morally wrong, easy, but wrong. Ergo, two PC’s one mine, one theirs

By shanel

October 11, 2006 03:18 PM | Link to this

I can’t beleive this topic is considered a real ponderer 2 decades (at least) after the fact! It’s like my grandfather telling me about an event that happened 30 years prior that he repeated to me at least as many times. Will this still be a topic of interest in 2026?

By time for the truth

October 11, 2006 03:18 PM | Link to this

LIGHT PLANE CRASHES INTO NY CITY HIGH RISE BUILDING … 20 floors up

people trapped - one local report of TWO dead - all chaotic … was a fixed wing aircraft - not a chopper.

By Redneck Convert

October 11, 2006 03:34 PM | Link to this

Well, I’m back from a week at Panama City beach. It woulda been OK if the missus hadn’t got stuck in the bathtub. I had to call the fire department to get her out. They lathered her up with some KY jelly, and she came out just fine, except for being stark nekkid in front of about 10 men and being shy and all. I guess the lesson I learnt was not to let a 375-lb. woman get into a small bathtub. Anyway, she wouldn’t go to the beach no more on account of not knowing which man there might have saw her in the all together.

I’m with most people here. None of my employers can expect me to be loyal. The one that I trusted most brought in a bunch of Mexicans to take my job. And the same goes for the warehouse where I haul beer. If they ever figure out how to get a machine to drive the truck, or if they can find an illegal with a drivers liscence, I’m a goner. So I’ll just take as much as I can without getting caught. Course, I always pray for forgiveness down at the church and that makes it OK.

If Ida had it to do over again, Ida learnt the multiplying tables and stayed in school, instead of dropping out in the 5th grade. But its to late now. I’ll just have to find what work I can until I’m old enough to retire on Social Security. I hope when that time comes all of you will give plenty to SS to allow me to keep living in the trailer and going to Billy Bob’s.

Don’t forget to vote for Republicans next month. I hear they have this plan to save Social Security, and I need it to be saved.

By sad but true

October 11, 2006 03:38 PM | Link to this

Malcom @2:24 “As an employer my employees better be willing to give 110%, if not, you’re out the door. Give me 110 and I’ll give you a more than fair return. You’ll be amongst my most valued employees. I’ll want to keep you on the payroll.”

Sadly, the part about “give me 110 and I’ll give you more than a fair return” is the rare exception…not the rule.

By getalife

October 11, 2006 03:41 PM | Link to this

Small plane hits building in NY city.

Clinton’s fault.

By Dana

October 11, 2006 03:52 PM | Link to this

Ah Van, just when I was feeling a little empathy for you!

When you are reviewing opportunities and decide to accept a position with a company which offers benefits - ie retirement, 401k, vacation, etc, and said company later chooses to tank any or all of those options, getting angry about it isn’t whining. We all make decisions based on experience. For years corporations could be trusted - Van, you were LUCKY you kept your seniority when IBM laid you off. An awful lot of people didn’t have that luxury. And - I’d like to point out that had YOU been depending on yourself, your retirement would have still been able to occur in ‘02. However, you were depending on IBM following through.

By Andy

October 11, 2006 04:05 PM | Link to this

Getalife, takealife, (yours).

WE GET THE BIT.

moron.

By Andy

October 11, 2006 04:10 PM | Link to this

I mean who would sit there 24/7 for a week and post nothing but, “clinton’s fault”, except a 23 point clinical criteria match for imbecile/moron? Who? nobody, that’s who.

Getalife, STFU!!!

By JK

October 11, 2006 04:13 PM | Link to this

Dana, please don’t be angry with Van! I’ve worked for IBM. It is a SOUL SUCKING vortex. Look at anyone who’s been there for any length of time. They SLURP the soul right out of the body, one day and one slurp at a time. Between that, the angry nuns, and the horrors of ‘nam… Bless his heart! Pray for Van, please!

By Andy

October 11, 2006 04:18 PM | Link to this

The employee loyalty problem is different in the USA than in other countries. In India, for example, they have a caste system to diffrentiate the bosses from the employees. All the employees are considered low caste “untouchables” because they are all unionizing scum who want healthcare and living wages…..

The bosses, who are all in the highest class, like the sacred cows, are called “unmilkables”, because you cant get them to concede even a lunch break to unionizers.

Untouchables. Unmilkables. that’s how India has taken over the globe’s economy.

(reprinted with permission from Ghandi’s autobiography entitled, “Sacred Cows and Milk Moustaches”)

By Realist

October 11, 2006 04:28 PM | Link to this

JK, Big blue aint that bad. I had the opportunity about five years ago to attend a big conference they did in Orlando. I was supposed to do some training but I slept in most days and missed it. The universal studious gig they put on was righteous…with food and drink on every corner. They did that up right. Nothing like wathcing 100,000 nerds drinking and dancing! LMAO!

By Dana

October 11, 2006 04:39 PM | Link to this

lol… JK - I do alot of business with IBM - yeah, I’m familiar with how they work. I was just annoyed that Van pointed out how they screwed him, (and they did, I absolutely agree!) and then agreed with whoever is posting as “conservative” today when he called everyone whiners and told them to open their own company.

By Prootwadl

October 11, 2006 04:42 PM | Link to this

In 18 years as a computer programmer I’ve been laid off twice, both times from companies that I would have gladly stayed with for the duration of my career.

It’s hard to be loyal to a company when it isn’t loyal to you. :-(

That said, I hope to stay where I am for as long as I can. I like it here, I enjoy the learning curve associated with complex work, and I think I’ll be able to help my current employer out for the next 20 years.

If my pattern holds, though, I will be laid off again in the spring of 2011…

By JK

October 11, 2006 04:44 PM | Link to this

Heyyy Big R. Yes, SATAN throws a nice party, too. Only you wake up handcuffed to the shower with a toothbrush sticking out of your a—, “nature boy” tatooed on your chest, and a you can’t find your soul. Haha!

By Prootwadl

October 11, 2006 04:47 PM | Link to this

KP, your “contributions” generalyl aren’t relevant in my experience when mass layoffs are occurring, at least in the IT industry.

HR seems to look at two things: how long have you been with the company, and which team/group are you a part of.

I’ve seen layoffs occur based purely on level of experience without regard for actual talent or controbution, and I’ve seen layoffs occur by whole-hog trimming of tree branches (folks working on Project X stay, but folks on Project Y are gone).

Neither one generates much incentive to make onesself invaluable — if you’re in the wrong place at the wrong time, or just aren’t there long enough, it isn’t going to matter. Even if you walk on water, you’ll be gone.

By JK

October 11, 2006 04:48 PM | Link to this

I wonder why “the gub’mint” makes it so hard for small businesses and entrepreneurs to survive. Hmmmm… Could it be maybe that “the gub’mint” is owned, lock, stock, & loaded barrells, by BIG COMPANIES, the ones who get tax “incentives” and write laws that their lobbyists give to their little Reppie boys at lunch to “introduce” as their own? Hmmmm…. Could it be that the real hindrance to “free enterprise” is “big enterprise?” Much to ponder.

By Realist

October 11, 2006 04:55 PM | Link to this

I hear ya JK. I have heard some bad things from thier clones, er , employees.

Havent seen any invites to Satans parties though. Guess Im not on his list like you are….. lol

By Th

October 11, 2006 05:00 PM | Link to this

Mr. Wooten; if you need a debate topic other than the Bush/Iraq/Foley shoutfests, these articles are quite the jumping off place for discussion. Completes the topics you never discuss in polite company.

By Cynical white man

October 11, 2006 05:11 PM | Link to this

I can’t believe this is even a topic. The fact that no company in the US is going to be loyal to an employee for more than a millisecond has been common knowledge for 20 years. Anyone is gets up in the morning and expects an American Executive to do anything but look for ways to cut your pay, benefits, retirement, or job altogether is living in a dream world.

Wake up folks, smart 25 year olds with good educations in Mumbi will work 12 hours a day for $8 an hour and run rings around us old guys who are sitting around waiting for our retirement checks to kick in. If you’re not smarter, harder working, faster, or cheaper (or all of the above) you are old news.

Welcome to the 21st century.

By Van

October 11, 2006 05:14 PM | Link to this

Dana,

IBM is not the bad boy in this, it was AT&T that outsourced the entire department to IBM.

It was AT&T that would not let me look for work to get my 30 years in.

IBM, while not an ideal place to work has allowed me to work at home, chained to a pager and laptop.

Please, IBM is not the souless beast that AT&T was.

By Markus

October 11, 2006 05:26 PM | Link to this

What is it with the rich and famous and buying high performance light aircraft and getting themselves killed thinking they’re Chuck Yeager?

By getalife

October 11, 2006 05:28 PM | Link to this

See how pathetic it really is Andy?

Good.

Now you STFU.

Idiot pervert appeaser.

By getalife

October 11, 2006 05:36 PM | Link to this

Bingo.

JK wins the post of the day.

By JK

October 11, 2006 05:43 PM | Link to this

Thanks! Um…the free enterprise one, or the party with Satan one? {;->

By Markus

October 11, 2006 05:46 PM | Link to this

I’ve been laid off three times by the tech industry, and I finally decided to give it up and go into the transportation/supply chain industry. So far, it’s only been an upward move, but even that industry is not immune from volatility. A host of things affect a company’s bottom line in that industry, from raw materials demand to driver shortages and fuel costs.

I don’t ever expect to be with a company for 30 years. That thought is alien to me. Workers have been expendable assets since the 1980s at least. Maybe it’s the generation I came up with, but I learned early on to take care of #1 like opening a Roth IRA. Companies don’t owe any loyalty to employees, and employees should return the favor.

But sitting around whining about GM’s CEO pay while ignoring the costs GM doles out for pay & benefits of regular employees (in the tens of BILLIONS) will not change things. Times change. Move with them and adapt or get left behind and vote Democrat.

By getalife

October 11, 2006 05:51 PM | Link to this

Free enterprise.

[That is not a toothbrush](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v514/crunchyfrog/registeredrepublicanjj7.jpg_

By Markus

October 11, 2006 05:52 PM | Link to this

JK-

“I wonder why “the gub’mint” makes it so hard for small businesses and entrepreneurs to survive”

Have you actually ever TALKED to any small biz owners? Ask THEM how they feel about payroll taxes, state and local taxation and regulatory fees, state-mandated liability insurance, etc. etc. Yeah, “gub’mint” indeed.

Companies owning the “gub’mint” is the funniest thing I’ve ever read on this board. If that were true, Democrats would have ceased to exist as a party LONG ago.

By getalife

October 11, 2006 05:53 PM | Link to this

macaca,

You put the weed in the cops food and were fired from Burger King.

Quit lying.

By Markus

October 11, 2006 05:55 PM | Link to this

The hero of the left is charged with treason. I hope they catch this extreme leftist Kalifornia FREAK… and saw him to pieces, one limb at a time. This is what liberalism breeds.

By Markus

October 11, 2006 05:57 PM | Link to this

Poor poor gitmolife-

Jealousy of your betters that golf, boat, and taking vacations and cruises will not earn you any brownstain points.

By getalife

October 11, 2006 05:58 PM | Link to this

Oops, not a toothbrush

By getalife

October 11, 2006 06:03 PM | Link to this

macaca,

No stress in my life.

transportation/supply chain industry.

I am guessing you are a truck driver with a meth problem.

By Living to Work

October 11, 2006 06:09 PM | Link to this

I think a couple of posters nailed it when they pointed out that the employer-employee relationship died decades ago. I think a better question is what are the long-term ramifications?

My Dad worked for the same large corporation for over 25 years - no layoffs within the company during the time he was there. He and others were promoted from within. He was given a company car and made enough money to support his wife and four children, purchase a station wagon, live in a 2500 sq. foot house, send all four kids to college and retire with a comfortable pension. (By the way, he didn’t spend a day in college).

Not one of his kids (me included) is doing as well financially as our parents did. Two of us finished college, and the other two started college but didn’t finish. None of us has been promoted from within or given a significant raise. We’ve had to change jobs to move up and keep up.

I don’t live the same quality of life as I did growing up — by that I mean, we only drive used budget vehicles, and we keep them until the wheels fall off. We live in a smaller house (1300 sq.ft.) and do not carry credit card debt. While our savings to date is small, we do have a little bit put away (that’s better than most). We’re comfortable, but we just can’t afford the same middle-class lifestyle we enjoyed as kids.

At the same time, my siblings are desperately trying to maintain the quality of life we had as children — more house than they can afford, newer and bigger cars than they can afford and nearly anything their kids want. At the same time, they carry lots of credit card debt in addition to the huge automobile and mortgage loans without any savings for emergencies, retirement or a college education for their kids. Very dangerous.

What are the long-term ramifications of the non-existent employer-employee relationship? If my siblings and I are any indication, the ramifications are not good. Not good at all.

By Jim Wooten

October 11, 2006 06:12 PM | Link to this

Good discussion today. Thanks all. And to JK @ 11:43, incumbents certainly should appear with challengers, though having listened to lots of candidates and challengers in the past couple of weeks, including all day today, I think they reveal more in a Q&A with the audience than in talking-point debates.

Barabara @ 13:39, the time-delay is not yet fixed and won’t be for a while. It’s a factor of blog traffic and not, in most all instances, an imposed wait.

Lindya @1:30, a favorite aerobics instructor of years past, welcome to the blog. Exercise continues, though fewer classes are now available.

Th @ 5, thanks for the topic suggestions. There are some possibilities there.

By Markus

October 11, 2006 06:14 PM | Link to this

Nope getmolife-

I boss people around who boss truck drivers around. Oh, and I boss warehouse people around too… and make more money on top of them all.

By Filthy Godless Liberals

October 11, 2006 08:33 PM | Link to this

Looks like finch/ bon scott was here today:

By Andy October 11, 2006 04:10 PM I mean who would sit there 24/7 for a week and post nothing but, “clinton’s fault”,

She’s the name jacker off.

By Rob

October 12, 2006 08:47 AM | Link to this

Jim:

Good article. The lack of loyalty seems to be related to globalization. as quality from overseas products went up (cars in the 1970’s) and prices down (overseas workers need a lot less money than us to live), security at places like GM and Ford disappeared. Although sad from a close nit community standpoint, I don’t see it getting any better. I work in IT and can supply similar services for sometimes 1/10th the price from India, Brazil, China. It might not be great for help desks where people want to hear their native tongue well spoken, but the things I can off-shore are strictly back room, where language is not an issue.

In the end, we adapt or die. It is survival of the fittest. Many of those employees who are laid off have found better callings.
but for a company or an employee to feel the comfort and safety of the post war years is just not possible today. Those of us who know nothing else have had an easier time dealing with it than those who knew the secure days.

By Andy

October 12, 2006 08:50 AM | Link to this

You know, when I first started commenting on this blog, I knew there would be trolls. Trolls are intrinsic to any public cyber-forum.

But I didn’t think that every single poster would be a troll. There is a cadre of trolls that stalk each other in and out of chatrooms, message boards, and blogs across AOL, Yahoo, and blogsites.

They swarm a site and turn it into a myspace.com teenage wetsheet. Fully 90% of the comments on this blog come from a handful of these excreters.

They are here because they enjoy the validation that group think provides for them. That’s why every single post is nearly identical day in and day out. You dont have to read the trolls, you know exactly what they’re going to write. Exactly.

Why? Original thought would alienate them from the swarm and they would be adrift, forced to confront their own opinion pile.

The trolls here usually post from the right, but they have no idea where they fall on the political spectrum, they only mimic the cheek-parting stumps from that flatulently sphinctonic king of the breakfast burrito himself, rush limbaugh.

These trolls want so much to belong to something, so they lipsynch the empty slogans, the poached party lines, and the knuckleheaded knee-jerk damage control that the right’s media icons defecate. That’s right, trolls become the turds that fiber-challenged loaf pinchers like Rush limbaugh leave behind as he sells out his own country.

By Jeff L

October 12, 2006 10:43 AM | Link to this

Company loyalty (from the company side) pretty much went out the window completely for big companies back when IBM finally started laying off in the 80s.

For many companies though there never was much loyalty to employees. I recall working at a hotel once that basically forced out an employee that had been there for more than 10 years just because they decided they could save money by paying someone with less tenure.

In my career the longest I’ve been anywhere was just under 7 years. There are some benefits to this kind of movement. It keeps the individual from stagnating and also helps to bring new blood into companies to help prevent stagnation in the companies as well.

My view is that corporations will always do whatever increases the bottom line and “employee relations” is more a pro forma idea than a serious valuing of employees.