Thinking Right

By Mid_South Philosopher

August 23, 2006 08:08 AM | Link to this

Good morning, Jim,

The three great evils of humankind are hatred, bigotry, and prejudice. I don’t believe these are necessarily inborn in us, but each of us is endowed with a “liberal” capacity to “learn” these traits. Once these are learned, we are confronted with two choices. We can surrender to the illogic of the situation and feed and grow these “ruffians,” or we can initiate a life-long campaign of combat against them.

I suspect that every human of the age of discretion, within the inner most recesses of our psyche, has the capacity to express hatred, bigotry, and prejudice. These qualities are like alcoholism. They are always with us, even though we despise them and do not want to be that way. Hence, we are honest, if we admit that we might fail from time to time, and we labor every day to eradicate these evils from our lives.

Because one makes a foolish statement does not discount the more important factor…the life one has lived.

Most important, we should strive NOT to teach these evils to our children

By Katrina

August 23, 2006 08:20 AM | Link to this

Katrina.

By Harold

August 23, 2006 08:24 AM | Link to this

Harold hates the chalkies! Whew, Harold sure feels better now. What a release!

By MLK

August 23, 2006 08:27 AM | Link to this

MLK

By Harold

August 23, 2006 08:30 AM | Link to this

What’s so funny about Andrew Young is he thought that his experience was unique.

However, pop on up to Brooklyn in the 1960s and you’d have the Koreans and the Jews and the Arabs running the corner sundries store for all the Italians.

Overpriced corner stores are run by those unable to run a less risky venture, no matter who the customer is.

But Young painted his experience with the typical victim paintbrush. He was born a poor black child, unable to tell sh!t from shinola, so he was a victim at that corner store. He was not just another customer at just another overpriced corner store, too busy (or perhaps lazy) to go further to the store that cost less. It’s not his own fault for shopping there. NOOOO sir.

By Van

August 23, 2006 08:35 AM | Link to this

Actually, I find Andrew Youngs utterances worse than Mel Gibson’s.

Mr. Youngs were said while cold stone sober and clearheaded. As an ambassador to the United Nations, you would think that Mr. Young would have had more exposer to people of other cultures, but I now wonder.

While this is not his first brush with controversy, it is the most egregious.

By Lola

August 23, 2006 08:40 AM | Link to this

The GA Tech speech code protected nobody but the ones who used it as a shield for their own hateful expression. Once it became a shield for the other side as well, everyone raised holy he*l about it and it was struck down. Should never have been in place to begin with.

It is possible to discuss things in racial context without making it a confrontation, however, emotions run so strongly that people are inclined to attack before they are inclined to reason. Just look at my postings on the “Katrina” blog. I never once mentioned race in my first post, only talked about the “victim” mentality. But the responses I got from that ranged from accusing me of being in the Klan to telling me to die to telling me to perform disgusting acts on the privates of one of the posters. How is it that simply mentioning that people should have personal responsibility could cause such a level of hatred and aggressive discourse?

The problem with discussing racial or ethnic topics is the same problem with saying Cindy Sheehan is a national disgrace and has dishonored her son’s memory in exchange for infamy and publicity. Somehow people see the “minority” groups as beyond reproach, and any effort to logically discuss things turns into an instant label of racism or “hating” for the person trying to have a civil discussion. I’m neither racist nor hateful. But I do expect Americans to take advantage of the opportunities provided to them and to be responsible for their own successes and failures.

I don’t see skin color or ethnicity as an excuse for lack of personal responsibility, and I don’t see the need for hyphenated labels to describe certain groups of people. We’re all Americans, no matter where your great-great-great-great grandfather was from or what possible wrong-doings were perpetrated on your ancestors 100 years ago. Get over it, move on, knock the chip off your shoulder and make something out of yourself with the opportunities you’re given in this great country.

Different opinions and views are what make this a great country to live in, and our ability to have civil discourse is what differs us from the socialist and dictatorships that don’t allow it. Stand up and say your piece, and respect the fact that not everyone shares your views of the world. Embrace that, don’t fight it. It gives you a better perspective on things and you might just learn something along the way.

By Jim Wooten

August 23, 2006 08:41 AM | Link to this

Morning Philosopher, Harold and all. You set a good tone for the discussion, Philsopher. And there is an element in what Harold says that intrigues me in Young, and it is that after all these years, after coming to understand that there is a size and risk premium that comes with operating a small business in areas other business-owners avoid, he still identifies with the customers as victims. And while other liberal activists would too, I’m sure, many of them fight a retailer, like Wal-Mart that would bring lower prices and choice to poor communities.

By jbmlaw

August 23, 2006 08:44 AM | Link to this

Good morning all. Great question today, Mr. Wooten; I suspect our answers - not just what we say, but how we say it - will tell us more about ourselves than our regular, politically-oriented blog topics.

I still remember the bad-old days of Jim Crow, a time when the language of many white southerners was unashamedly peppered with a dozen different terms to describe black folk, some mean-spirited, others merely the language of the day. (There is no good reason to illustrate my point with examples. I distinctly recall Lyndon Johnson’s public-use descriptive term for black people as the term most common in my circle, which term has fallen out of use entirely – even today’s black comedians do not use the term.) Surely there were also terms black folk used to describe white people, but the language was generally not as degrading. What I remember is that the language, by any measure insensitive, frequently did not reflect any true animus by the speaker.

I think what I find dispiriting about Mel and Andy is the mere collectivism in their language. I fear that the language police have bottled-up stupid feelings that were better released and expunged, as suggested in Jim’s essay. I truly believe Mel Gibson does not hate Jewish people, and I truly believe Andy Young does not hate Korean people (or anyone else.)

I have always found collectivism repugnant, and never wished to associate myself with any particular group. Yet, I find myself reconsidering “profiling,” due to the wide-spread misbehavior of Islamic terrorists. (Wide-spread, meaning perhaps 5% of the total population.) Maybe we are better off if we “blame” all faithful Moslems for the sins of their lesser fellow-believers, in order to urge them to enforce better standards in their community. Thus, the sins of Bill Clinton and the Olympic Park bomber whatshisname should be attributed to all white males. Just thinking aloud, all of this is half-baked. Hope to get online later to see other people’s thoughts; I think this may be a learning day for me, rather than a lecture day.

By Do the Right Thing

August 23, 2006 08:46 AM | Link to this

Spike Lee

By Harold

August 23, 2006 08:50 AM | Link to this

Well, WalMart is another story. With their low prices they bring also low quality. If you save $5 on a $20 clock radio but it lasts 6 months instead of 5 years before breaking, did you really save any money? No. WalMart keeps the poor poorer by making them buy a new hair dryer every year. Also for every open WalMart there is one a mile away that is abandoned and growing rats. And then there’s the government subsidized health care plan for WalMart employees. Hooeee. Anyhow, nobody is forcing WalMart’s customers to shop there (except maybe in small towns where the competition goes out of business), so as liberal as Harold may be, Harold isn’t going to feel sorry for them. And, good mornin’.

By Segregation

August 23, 2006 08:50 AM | Link to this

Congenitally Disenfranchised.

By Jim Wooten

August 23, 2006 08:53 AM | Link to this

Lola, I agree that people who would like to think of themselves as victims attempt to elevate their standing and devalue you and your arguments by contending that you “hate” their entire class or race of people. It’s an easy way to claim moral superiority in the discussion.

By Mark the Lib

August 23, 2006 08:56 AM | Link to this

Jim, I was wondering how long into your rant would the term liberal show up. 17 lines in today.

By Joe T

August 23, 2006 09:00 AM | Link to this

I’ve always liked Andy and remember his answer to the reporter in N Y about the man from Albany wanting to attend Jimmy Carter’s church. Andy said , he couldn’t understand why he would want to attent because black folks never thought white folks could preach. He’s apologized. let it go!

By Joe T

August 23, 2006 09:01 AM | Link to this

I’ve always liked Andy and remember his answer to the reporter in N Y about the man from Albany wanting to attend Jimmy Carter’s church. Andy said , he couldn’t understand why he would want to attend because black folks never thought white folks could preach. He’s apologized. let it go!

By Realist

August 23, 2006 09:02 AM | Link to this

I have a good friend back in Birmingham, actually an old fraternity pal, whose family owns and operates a couple of convenience store/gas stations. Both businesses are located in the heart of West End Birmingham, a historically low income neighborhood comprised of mostly government housing and run down “steel mill” homes of an era long forgotten. Most of his customers shop at his stores several times a week or more, because they dont have a larger grocery store within walking distance. And my friends father new this very well.

Ive been to both of these stores, and both are essentially the same. Reinforced steel doors and door frames with electronic locks that engage when the owner hits a button, bars on the windows, bullet proof “cage” around the cashier area with just enough space at the bottom to stick the money through, and of course, pay before you pump signs everywhere imaginable.

I spent some time with this family over the years at their lake home during the summer when school was out. As a family run business, they all pitched in to help run the stores. And to a person, even the mother, they all loved to make fun of and exploit the very people who were thier customers. They joked about the outrageous profits they made by stocking items geared soley toward the black community and how they just couldnt seem to get enough, no matter the price. Single cigarettes instead of whole packs at large mark-up, loose beers and wine, food items like eggs bacon and bread, all with insane markups. Not to mention the little scam he ran where he would buy food stamps for cash, $.50 on the dollar, and then turn around and sell them his beer or wine or cigarrettes with the cash they just recieved. And then there was the practice of buying “brand new” merchandise for a fraction of its actual value off some of his customers who happen to need some quick cash. It was pure unadulterated exploitation and he new it, and was proud of it. He was making money coming and going. But man it alwasy seemed like dirty money to me.

Aside from the financial end of it, this family also got their kicks out of beating the hell out of anyone (child, teen, or adult) who decided to try to steal and run out the door without paying. The electronic steel locking door played a big role in this, as they would lock in the would be thiefs like an animal in a cage, then come out from behind the cashiers area with a bat or gun and let them have it until the police arrived and took them to jail. It made me wonder, who was the real criminal in that scenario?

So I suppose when I heard Andrew Youngs comments, I saw where he was coming from. I mean Im sure my freinds family didnt create this business model. Ive seen it all over in every city Ive ever visited. And the truth is, there are a tremendous amount of Asian and Korean shop owners who run this exact same business model, and have for years and years. So why the big deal because Young spoke the truth? I mean if a pure white frat boy from Alabama knows that blacks are being exploited at these places, surely it cant be a big secret?

I think we have got to get away from persecuting people because they are speaking the truth, based on fact, just because there happens to be a race element to thier comment. It happens all the time on both sides and its just ridiculous.

By Mark the Lib

August 23, 2006 09:03 AM | Link to this

I don’t know about that Harold. Wal-Mart’s products are no more inferior than anyone elses, with the exception of clothing. If you think you’re getting better electronics because you buy them from Best Buy or Circuit City or some other place then you’re fooling yourself. Those electronic stores sell junk just like Wal-mart. Higher prices don’t necessesarily mean the quality is better. Buy a Jaguar or a Cadillac or a BMW and you’ll see. Straight up pieces of junk. Now Lexus’ on the other hand…

By US History 101

August 23, 2006 09:05 AM | Link to this

Antebellum Estate Planning and Hayrides.

By Rosa Parks

August 23, 2006 09:08 AM | Link to this

Seating arrangements on Mass Transit

By Rose Colored Glasses

August 23, 2006 09:09 AM | Link to this

Separate but equal.

By Jim Wooten

August 23, 2006 09:11 AM | Link to this

Realist, jbmlaw, thanks for the quality of your posts. If it’s possible to continue through the discussion with this kind of thought and insight, it’ll be a fantastically productive day.

By getalife

August 23, 2006 09:11 AM | Link to this

Hate speech is realfake’s favorite topic.

He worships the thing called Ann who bashes the families of the 9/11 murders. Where is OBL? Who cares, they say.

The wingnuts like Rush, Ann, Hannity,….. make millions from their hate speech thanks to people like realfake,lies, Markus, ect….

By Mark the Lib

August 23, 2006 09:14 AM | Link to this

Realist,I like that story. If I was your freind and I had a theif in that predicament I’d do the same thing. I hate thieves and thugs.

I take a conservative viewpoint when it comes to those who shop at this store. You don’t like it, go somewhere else.

By Southern Democrat

August 23, 2006 09:17 AM | Link to this

Mr. Wooten,

You courageously address another of the most pressing topics in Atlanta (and the entire U.S.). I thank you for providing a forum for important discussions such as this one.

I wholeheartedly agree with you that the “marketplace of ideas” should be allowed to function (i.e., let speech be as free as possible), and that, hopefully, worthless ideas (ones rife with prejudice or racism) will be discarded by the marketplace. This goal, however, requires all of us to commit to difficult tasks: not laughing at or encouraging degrading jokes against women and ethnic minorities, attempting to overcome stereotypes, and working to develop meaningful relationships with persons from disparate backgrounds.

I hope, along with jbmlaw, that the conversation today will be a productive one and that we will all benefit.

By Realist

August 23, 2006 09:22 AM | Link to this

Mark, I think either you missed, or I didnt properly relay, that these beatings were given with no discretion. A 50 year old homeless man stealing a bottle of wine might get the same beating as a 12 year old stealing a pack of gum. I have my faults and shortcomings, but I know when something just isnt right, and what that family was doing in that store, was plain wrong.

By Liberal

August 23, 2006 09:22 AM | Link to this

Realist and JBMLaw,

Those were some of the best posts that I’ve seen. Thanks for your input.

Like I said before, it’s going to take a while to clean up the mess left over from Jim Crow. Sometimes it takes stepping outside of your shoes and see where others are coming from, even if you don’t like their political views. After seeing the riots in France last fall and experiencing first hand how African and Arab immigrants are marginalized in Europe, as well as racist abuse aimed at nonwhite players at soccer matches, I can definitely say that although we have some way to go, the US is further ahead in race relations than our European counterparts. This is mainly due to the fact that we are one of the first Western societies to have to face the issue of race and ethnicity head-on. Let’s hope that in a generation or two that all of this can be a silly afterthought.

By Jim Crow

August 23, 2006 09:26 AM | Link to this

Some of my best friends…..

By time for the truth

August 23, 2006 09:32 AM | Link to this

The likes of Young are always extremely eager to finger point and shout racism at anyone who crosses what the racial spoils crowd deems the racial line. Young did exactly the same thing, making racist remarks, whilst serving as America’s worst ever UN Ambassador. He eventually was forced, very grudgingly to apologise. If he’s happy to do this now in the magical age of the diversity he’s supposedly so dedicated to - and back then one - naturally wonders just what his attitude is to non blacks and how often he does this kind of thing when the media aren’t around?

Lola is absolutely right. Similarly on here yesterday it was observed that expanding MARTA is opposed by counties in the metro concerned with expanding crime. The almost instantaneous racebaiting from some that followed that was hardly surprising.

It is invariably minorities and the left these days who are the most shrill and bigoted. Constantly abusing their power to generate media driven racial controversy amongst a predictable herd that’s ready, willing and able to be offended, often about little or nothing. Helping to make sure that when occasionally there is an egregious racially charged incident many folks increasingly either just see it as crying wolf yet again or tune it out.

They know that there is an anti-white element who will believe anything and willingly be polarised. Just look at the phoney Duke rape case and how that has been exploited by the media and local blacks who refuse to accept that two drunken strippers concoted a story that just keeps unravelling to get some petty revenge for some alleged unsavoury racial name calling.

McKinney’s thugs were sneering openly at Jews after her glorious defeat - they pushed and even punched at people for no reason other than hate - yet nothing happens to them and the cops and DA refused to pursue an obvious racially charged incident. Imagine if whites had made similar remarks about blacks on camera - McKinney types would still be having outraged marches and demanding boycotts!!

Every single minority now plays the race card, they’ve learned from the masters how effective it can be, but it’s repugnant and pathetic. Many black politicians play the race card when they are charged with corruption, hoping to sway juries and fellow blacks.

Liberals are disproportionately responsible for this for racial blame game, for decades they allowed this to fester as it has. Shame on them!!

http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=2411

By SJF

August 23, 2006 09:37 AM | Link to this

To find that he still harbored not only the resentment but the misunderstanding of a market economy, even after taking Wal-Mart’s money, is a bit of a surprise.

Jim, this is also a surprise because Andrew Young has lots of experience going on record…yet he put his foot in his mouth.

Young’s lack of a measured response seems to indicate the depth of his hostility towards those other races…i.e.,he could have made his point without once mentioning the ethnicity of the store owners.

Not that such ethnic clashes can’t be discussed intelligently, but instead of looking at the whole situation objectively…while also taking an opportunity to plug Wal-Mart, Andrew Young took the “victimization” tactic….which has obviously blown up for him.

By Amelia

August 23, 2006 09:41 AM | Link to this

By Jim Wooten

August 23, 2006 08:53 AM | Link to this

Lola, I agree that people who would like to think of themselves as victims attempt to elevate their standing and devalue you and your arguments by contending that you “hate” their entire class or race of people. It’s an easy way claim moral superiority in the discussion.

Jim, “hate” is not neccessarily a component of prejudice. One can exist without the other.

By rednecks - Amerikkka's Al Qaeda

August 23, 2006 09:46 AM | Link to this

Let’s get away from comparing Andy Young to Mel Gibson - it’s like comparing a platter of T-bone steaks to a paper plate full of cowpie.

Andy Young was born to professional parents in New Orleans in the 1930s. Despite his parents’ education, their lives were severely circumscribed by the color of their skin. Andy ends up a preacher in rural Georgia and Alabama in the 1950s, and sees churches burned, people raped murdered and beaten - (Realist’s friends forebearers and their legions ruled rural Georgia and Alabama) - and rather than acquiesce, he does something about it.

Young, King, Lewis, Abernathy, Williams, Jackson, Lowry, etc. were all beaten and jailed at various times, some more often and more severely than others. Rednecks bombed their homes with their children in them.

When we see a person with the courage and commitment of an Andy Young once exhibited screw up like this, the little minds amongst us (and there are way too many) get to thinking “he’s just like us”.

And he is, he just showed some courage, and helped his fellow man with his life and safety on the line.

Greetings from Boulder CO - a beautiful sunny morning in the foothills of the Rockies…

May you all take your ability to be courageous and put it into action, for your fellow man. Not for your SUV or your gated community.

By Jim Wooten

August 23, 2006 09:49 AM | Link to this

Agreed, Amelia. My argument is that an issue disagreement is misrepresented as originating in hatred toward a whole class of people.

By time for the truth

August 23, 2006 09:50 AM | Link to this

Liberal

There is an organised campaign against racism in football which every club in western Europe, and UEFA as the official org running EU football explicitly supports. Abuse of black players is utterly unacceptable - unfortunately it also has a gamesmanship element to it, although that line can get blurred. But it isn’t only black players who are singled out. Its often about nationality. One of the most infamous incidents was when a white french player performed a karate kick on a white English fan in the crowd at Selhurst Park because of some actually pretty minor remark about him being french, along with some personal abuse. Mexicans boo the USA team. Turks have murdered and stabbed English fans who were peaceably doing nothing but enjoying being tourists before a UEFA cup game. The Dutch constantly wind up the Germans. Its not just white on black.

One good way to tackle any bigot/racist is to ask them which sports team they support - most teams have a wide variety of players from all over. Are you prepared to tell so and so he’s inferior or whatever? Personalising it at least makes it more awkward for a true bigot. Sure some wont care - but it makes a telling point for them to maybe consider. You cant force folks to think reasonably, but at least give them a way to reframe bigoted thinking. The sports example is just one of course.

By Liberal

August 23, 2006 10:00 AM | Link to this

TFTT,

Yeah, it’s funny that after karate-kicking a spectator in the stands, Cantona is doing the Nike Joga Bonita commercials. The irony kills me.

The UK has done a good job in stamping out racist abuse from the terraces and on the pitch. However, it seems that Spain and Italy still have a way to go. In both leagues, games were almost stopped (Eto’o and Zoro) because of abuse from fans. Seeing bananas thrown on the field and ape noises made when a black player touched the ball was shocking. In other leagues, there are cases of fans engaging in anti-Semitic behavior, etc.

And you’re right. It is very ironic indeed when fans abuse black players on another team, but on the other hand, applaud the black players on their team. Confusing indeed.

By Amelia

August 23, 2006 10:14 AM | Link to this

By Jim Wooten

August 23, 2006 09:49 AM | Link to this

Agreed, Amelia. My argument is that an issue disagreement is misrepresented as originating in hatred toward a whole class of people

Jim, while I think that you have a valid point, it is not difficult to detect when an element of predjudice or even hate creeps in. There is terminology that gives one away. Some people can argue an issue from a purely rational or logical position without ever letting slip the telling keywords. I think most people on this board give it the benefit of the doubt unti someone gives one of the indicators.

By Van

August 23, 2006 10:17 AM | Link to this

Amelia

Unfortunately, “hate” is the rationalization for the prejudice one.

First you set up situations that breed mistrust, dislike, “their too different” and eventually it will fester into hate. This gives some folks the “right” to hate another group. A rationalization to hate. Look back at the 1930’s in Germany, a perfect example.

By time for the truth

August 23, 2006 10:24 AM | Link to this

Liberal

For many years Everton fans used to sing
“Everton are white” because they were on the pitch. But now that’s long gone and they have a mixed team. The chanting in England nowadays is really more about winding up players, trying to put them off or getting them to react and a red/yellow card. Also very occasionally black players actually lie about supposed racial abuse from other players, that’s actually the worst thing of all. Branding another player out of spite.

After the Falklands War Argie players in England for obvious reasons got unremitting abuse - especially the Tottenham pair. But that’s faded now and Argies dont get that treatment.

During the Brixton riots in the early 80’s a black QPR footballer centre back called Bob Hazell who went out to try and stop the violence, he ended up with chants everywhere he went “Who throws petrol Bombs … Bob Hazell, Bob Hazell”. He played for my team for a while and he hated that chant. It was just terrace humour not racial.

By Amelia

August 23, 2006 10:28 AM | Link to this

Van, I think that prejudice morphs into hate at some point if provided the stimulus. And I think you give a good example of that with 1930s Germany. A passive prjudice of Jewish people became full blown hate when Hitler started giving the populace what they felt were “rational” reasons to openly hate and persecute Jews. It became “acceptable”. People rationalized it in a political sense. The immigration issues that we face in this country today is a very good example of the same type of metamorphosis.

By harold

August 23, 2006 10:29 AM | Link to this

TFTT says “One good way to tackle any bigot/racist is to ask them which sports team they support”

But it’s not what’s on the outside that counts in sports.

It’s what’s on the inside: The dope!

All professional sports teams should be sponsored by pharmaceutical companies ONLY.

If soembody liked Phonak over CSC how does you tell if they a racist? They all crackers!

By @@

August 23, 2006 10:34 AM | Link to this

Mr. Wooten: I appreciate the opportunity presented by your topic. Having grown up in California, a virtual melting pot of different cultures, I learned the value of an individual regardless of race. My father was military originally from the hills of Tennessee. A southerner by birth.

He told all of his children that, when you’re in the military, you’re not looking at the color of a man’s skin, but the quality of his character. That’s what will save your behind in battle. When you operate within a unit, it’s in everyone’s best interest that you support that unit, even if it’s diverse in it’s ethnicity. A coming together, if you will, in a common cause.

With the civil rights movement, opportunity was given and taken in my opinion. Political correctness was espoused as a way to to subdue hatred. Bullhockey! It was a way to stifle discussion and nothing more. As a former liberal (sorry for the political label), I was indoctrinated into the the party of guilt. Time, wisdom & observation has shown me that I was part of the problem. I belonged to the party that breeds perpetual slavery for political gains.

I say let’s talk about it openly & honestly or we’ll never move forward as a nation united in a common goal of prosperity. And yes, I can do that even if I’m not black. I don’t have to be black to want what’s best for all people. I just have to be a member of the human race.

Sorry for the long post.

By sct

August 23, 2006 10:35 AM | Link to this

Van I very much agree with your 10:17.

Using the same logic, what are the examples of that today?

Is it….

Illegal immigrant or Christian immigrant

Conservative Christian or Jesus freak

Liberal or moonbat

conservative or wingnut

Gay or f-ag

Exaggeration and negativity are very popular these days.

By MClark

August 23, 2006 10:36 AM | Link to this

Wow.

It’s been two hours and the discussion remains on topic and civil. I only wish I could be here to take part but unfortunately duty calls.

As for me, I think that any rule, law, or regulation that curtails speech should be done away with. People should feel free to speak their minds and in doing so place themselves at risk of judgment for the things that come out of their mouths. Talk, they say is cheap and that may be so. The consequence of our words, on the other hand, is often times very high. But what are the penalties for the unwise word or the spoken prejudice. The penalty is that those we associate with will know what truly lies in our heart.

It is for this reason that Free Speech should never be equated with “correct” speech.

The former is our birthright as Americans, while the latter is the creation of the “protectors” who wish to make certain that no ones feelings are hurt, at the expense of us all. And the “protectors” span the political spectrum from the left who support the speech code at colleges to the right who want to ban the unfortunate expression of burning a flag. Each instance involves speech and expression, each should be unfettered but the participants in both the hate speech and flag burning should be held in contempt by society.

The consequence of such choices would be a marginalizing of the speaker by the majority of society. Rather than passing paternalistic laws and rules to “punish” we can then rely on one another to reject the speaker. Once marginalized then the objectionable words and the person who spoke them will lose their power and eventually become meaningless. To allow the governing body to step in and “punish” has the opposite effect, bringing more attention to the conduct and running the risk of turning the speaker into a martyr for their prejudiced cause.

I’d love to address what of the speaker who speaks unwisely but then asks for forgiveness, but I really have to go. Perhaps other opinions would be of value on that topic.

Please keep this civility; I’m hoping to have a good read when I get home tonight.

By Liberal

August 23, 2006 10:36 AM | Link to this

TFTT,

The Hazell chant sounded like it was just humor. The English FA has been very good at tackling the problem. And you’re right, there are times when black players will accuse another player of racism in order to get a card (Viera). I guess what I was talking about were the more explicit instances like the ultras at Lazio and the abuse that Spain’s fans hurled at England’s black players in last year’s friendly.

By time for the truth

August 23, 2006 10:41 AM | Link to this

The immigration issues that we face in this country today is a very good example of the same type of metamorphosis

absolute bollox Amelia … illegals are the ones making this a racial issue with their refusal to speak English, refusal to integrate, refusal to follow the laws, marching and making arrogant demands with foreign - mostly mexican flags, the gloating about the reconquest of the SW USA, the term la raza, the anti-Ammerican attitudes and boycotts, the blatant hypocrisy with the way they harshly treat illegals in mexico etc.

There is not the tiniest parallel between what the evil nazis did to their fellow citizens who had been there for centuries and the muct too restrained reaction against a blatant invasion of the USA by sex offenders, criminals, drug dealers, poorly educated people seeking education and medication etc.

80% of folks in GA want action on illegals.

Read Buchanan’s new book and then get back to us after you’ve actually educated yourself on the topic!!

By time for the truth

August 23, 2006 10:45 AM | Link to this

Liberal

its much more of a problem on the continent - but that’s Europe for you :)

Italy and Spain both have a long history of very active fascist parties which of course inevitably bleeds through into the footy culture. Di Canio makes his fascist salutes and largely gets away with it.

By sct

August 23, 2006 10:47 AM | Link to this

Those 80% don’t have to look to politicians for answers if 80% took action on their own the “problem” would go away.

Boycott vidaila onions, stop using day labor, use American born landscapers, wash their own restaurant dishes, hire American nannies, boycott chicken………and so on.

Another words put your MONEY where your mouth is

By Daytunaguy

August 23, 2006 10:47 AM | Link to this

I recall being a child of 10-13 years of age scouring the area of Lakewood Heights (ATL) for soft drink bottles. I could return these to the small store on Jonesboro Rd. and in return obtain a slice or two of bologna and a Coke. I did not feel cheated. I worked in the heat of the day finding bottles,the Jewish store owner compensated me well (I thought) and we were both happy. I did not and don’t now think badly of this businessman or his “people”.

By Dusty

August 23, 2006 10:48 AM | Link to this

Well, Jim,

I was quietly reading about hate and prejudice and agreeing with you on a hope for a productive day. But then I looked elsewhere and got VERY VERY ANGRY.

I LOOKED AT LUCKOVICH’S NEW CARTOON !!

He pictures Americans (Uncle Sam) as locked behind bars because we have a Republican President. I cannot stand such dishonesty.

Why am I bringing it here? Because I am planning to object to many AJC editors and you are right here. Sorry to interrupt but I cannot stand monumental slurs against our country by people who are enjoying the freedoms given us here.

By Van

August 23, 2006 10:49 AM | Link to this

Amelia,

To a degree, I agree with you on the immigration issue. What some folks fail to address is which group it is they feel is unwelcomed.

Not many of us would welcome criminals into our homes and neighborhoods, but we do. The people installing new carpet, you do not know if they are legal or illegal. You do not know whether they have criminal records or not.

This is the problem with the illegal issue. We are all migrates from somewhere, we assume that if you are working here you have proper paper work, but in some cases they are forged, stolen or just plain not asked for.

By Van

August 23, 2006 10:53 AM | Link to this

sct,

You forgot a few

Liberal, pinko’s

Progressives, pinko’s

Far left, pinko’s

Secularist, pinko’s

Anti-god folks, pinko’s

Wait, there seems to be a pattern.

By getalife

August 23, 2006 10:53 AM | Link to this

Way to ruin a civil discussion crusty. I guess you just can’t contain your hatred.

Speaking of civil, I have to give a shout out to Rocky who met with w this morning to discuss New Orleans.

Great job Rocky.

By sct

August 23, 2006 11:02 AM | Link to this

So Dusty, do you want Luckovich to be politically correct?

By Jim Wooten

August 23, 2006 11:06 AM | Link to this

To @@ and MClark: Actually, long posts are welcomed today. The topic does invite you to put your comments into the context of your life, values, and experiences, all of which may require some longer posts.

By Amelia

August 23, 2006 11:06 AM | Link to this

Van, you could say that about anyone no matter what ethnicity, legal, or illegal. Do you do background checks on everyone that enters your home? Illegal immigrants come in all nationalities and all colors. I guess the next logical question is, what ethnicity, if any are you speaking of?

By Dusty

August 23, 2006 11:10 AM | Link to this

No, Getalife,

I cannot contain my love for this country. I can only compare it to my children. I will fight against anybody who concocts and demeans them with outrageous insults and outright fabrications.

This is my country and I love it. I will never agree with those who say we do not live in freedom. Luckovich is picturing such a presumption.

(Sorry, Jim Wooten, I will say no more.)

By sct

August 23, 2006 11:11 AM | Link to this

Was the 10:53 (Van)a post from a Southerner or a hillbilly? A Georgian or a Redneck?

By Hadden Knough

August 23, 2006 11:12 AM | Link to this

The man simply expressed what he believes and now we have living proof that what my son’s 6th grade teacher - who is also black - once told her class is not true: only white people can be prejudice.

Mr. Young had a distinguished and honorable career as a civil rights activist. But he has also demonstrated on more than one occasion that his beliefs and actions are shaped by his experiences, his perceptions, his upbringing, and his exposure or lack there off to what is going on around him in the world. In other words, he is human like the rest of us and free to make a fool of himself if he chooses.

By time for the truth

August 23, 2006 11:14 AM | Link to this

funny how sct competely ignores the awkward factual points made about illegals.

its illegals and their mainly leftist enablers who deliberately make this a racial issue, emptily asserting that its some kind of prejudice against (mainly) ILLEGAL brown types - and also by noisily demanding that their illegal behaviour when violating US borders should unquestioningly be rewarded with an amnesty that allows any/all who want to stay and get citizenship.

If you screech racism and bigotry loud and long enough it may work if the GOP are scared enough, and if nothing else you get to endlessly play the race card and demonise those who actually believe in the rule of immigration law!!

By Realist

August 23, 2006 11:16 AM | Link to this

Not to try to simplify this whole thing, but as I see it, you have a large segment of people who’s families were tortured, burned, beaten, raped, murdered, and forced to watch the same happen to thier children. They didnt ask for any of it. They didnt come here looking for it. And as supposed Christian civilized human beings it should never have taken place.

On the other hand you have a large segment of people who want to forget it, perhaps even act as though it didnt happen. This is easy to do mind you because to believe that such atrocities could actually have happened, and that our own ancestors only a generation or two removed could have played a part in it, is unbearable for many. I know it is for me. Especially when I think about the innocent children.

You see if someone hurt my wife or kids, Id never let it go. Never. No way. No how. So I think we are fighting an uphill battle on this one. We have a monumental event of biblical proportions that should have never taken place, ever. It altered the course of time and history, and its time and history running its course that will have to work it out, not political leaders and activists.

I dont agree with many things the black community does and things they stand for, but when I ask myself honestly, could I let it go, the answer is clearly, NO.

By Amelia

August 23, 2006 11:19 AM | Link to this

TFTT, you are the most vile and ignorant person on this blog. Most here can at least have civil discourse and dialogue until you show up. And yes…I think you are just another racist, bigoted SOB or just plain Bit#$ if you are female. I apologize to the rest of you for this incivility, but people like TFTT are the reason that others get polarized, divided, and misdirected from what at one time was civil and substnative discourse.

By Joe

August 23, 2006 11:19 AM | Link to this

Who is surprised with his judgements, the man endorsed Cynthia McKinney. I rest my case.

By sct

August 23, 2006 11:21 AM | Link to this

Actually tftt I don’t think I was making a judgement on the Christian immigrant issue.

80% of the population adds up to a tremendous economic power.

How about an organized boycott of the next Vidaila onion crop? Its the 80% that are saying come here and get the money I am offering you.

I thought conservatives didn’t want government involved with everything, here’s an opportunity.

By Barbara

August 23, 2006 11:24 AM | Link to this

Hi Jim. Interesting topic today. I always thought these stores in the ghettos had to charge more because of the cost of doing business there (more crime, personal safety concerns leading to more needed security, not buying in bulk, which results in higher costs for the store owner). I was really surprised by Realist’s story though. I had no idea that these store owners did the things he describes. I doubt that all stores are like that though.

Your question about prejudice is intersting. Can we discuss it without inflaming people? Well, what is prejudice? Can we make absolutely no assumptions based on any outward sign without being labeled a bigot? I believe that today there are cultural and physical differences in races, but I also feel that there’s nothing wrong with having differences. There are the same differences in genders, another area that, when pointed out inflames people.

Until we find a way not to be so sensitive, I don’t think we will be able to have rational discussions with others because as soon as an assumption is made, or comparison is drawn, some sensitive person is offended and assumes the worst of the commenter.

By time for the truth

August 23, 2006 11:26 AM | Link to this

The man simply expressed what he believes and now we have living proof that what my son’s 6th grade teacher - who is also black - once told her class is not true: only white people can be prejudice.

that is the archetypal leftist anti-racist agenda. it is despicable and utterly unfounded.

when I was doing teacher training in the UK in the 1990’s we had to do this pathetic exercise.

make a list of words that contained black and white.

eg blackmail and whitewash. Then we told that because words with black were more numerous and were much more ‘negative’ and the ones with white fewer and positive or neutral the language was “racist” … it was laughable of course but the feminazi perpetrating this was a true anti-racist nutter. even when it was pointed out to her that words with black in them were either very old and had no racial connation from the time they were coined or that black was simply reflecting the obvious colour (not skin) aspects of the darkest colour in the palette. like blackout and blacken are really racist!!

By Janine

August 23, 2006 11:28 AM | Link to this

Hello all ! Maybe we should review the definition of PREJUDICE :….An adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts. ….A preconceived preference or idea. ….The act or state of holding unreasonable preconceived judgments or conviction….Irrational suspicion or hatred of a particular group, race, or religion. …Detriment or injury caused to a person by the preconceived, unfavorable conviction of another or others. …Is this what Mr. Wooten is talking about? I am thinking about the “preconceived, irrational, opinion formed beforehand, without knowledge”… part. Sometimes I think we label as prejudice what are opinions …sometimes based on one’s experience.

By rarringt

August 23, 2006 11:31 AM | Link to this

Morning all,

I guess what happened to/with Young is quite similar to Realist’s story as well.

It’s all based on perspective and experience. Young’s opinions may have been non politically correct, but you’d be hard pressed to find many blacks and hispanics who hadn’t experienced that kind of discrimination. In Detroit, news services were running stories on “bad meat” in Arab run or controlled stores on a regular basis. We’ve all heard (and I’ve experienced) the challenges of being a black man trying to hail a clearly empty and available cab.)

Whites and blacks both fall prey to believing in stereotypes. Whites watch COPS and BET and are left with the notion that blacks are criminal-minded ignoramuses. Blacks hear about mistreatment and automatically assume it was based on institutional racism. Isolated incidents occur, only reinforcing such impressions.

The result: Mutual Assured Distrust. Which keeps any group from making any real progress in understanding that, despite our differences, we are ALL americans.

But that, I suppose, is human nature. Put a bunch of kids of any single race in a school, and within days you’ll have cliques formed and socio-economic lines drawn. The introduction of race and ethnicity merely exacerbates the issues.

By time for the truth

August 23, 2006 11:33 AM | Link to this

so Amelia preidctably launches the first really poisonous attack …

she cannot answer the actual FACTUAL points made about her inflammatory remarks about jews … so she resorts to visceral abuse.

tell me where my points were “racist” love !!!

12 million and counting illegals is an invasion love … that’s more than the population of Norway or the state of Georgia!!

I say the same things that Peter King the chairman of a House committee does… is he racist too?

and I note sct dodges the questions/points … yet again!!

By Barbara

August 23, 2006 11:36 AM | Link to this

Janine, yes, that is exactly what I’m talking about too. When we make a presupposition, does that make us bigots? I think not. For example, on the playground, who gets picked first for a sports team? The biggest kid! Does that make the kid selecting the team prejudiced against the others? No, he/she just assumed the biggest kid would be the fastest, or strongest, etc. Sometimes that supposition is wrong. So what? Maybe the team captain will try to find out a little more about abilities next time.

I realize that example is very basic, and a lot of accusations of prejudice are more complex, but sometimes we read too much into a person’s comments and label them prejudiced without considering that the commenter is simply trying to draw some conclusions or gather as much information as possible, given the external signs.

By Bob Ichter

August 23, 2006 11:37 AM | Link to this

It has been interesting to see the repercussions of Andrew Young’s racist remarks .I sent this note in to Jim the day after the scandal broke. Of course there will be the standard insincere apologies, but let’s look deeper. Young states, “I think they’ve ripped off our communities enough. First it was Jews, then it was Koreans and now it’s Arabs; very few black people own these stores.” First of all it is sad that very few black people own stores in their own neighborhoods. I wonder how immigrants who barely speak our language, manage in a few years to open these “Mom and Pop” stores? Oh, I know, Hard work and determination. Because “Mom and Pop” work together. Because “Mom and Pop” are not content to sit around cashing welfare checks and having countless fatherless children. The reason many of these marginalized groups have served the black community is because that was where the opportunity was and because other groups considered these areas to be too dangerous to run a business in. The Black community is lucky any business owner would risk his investment [ and life ] locating there. Andrew Young should be ashamed and should stop blaming other groups for the plight of Black Americans

By getalife

August 23, 2006 11:38 AM | Link to this

You see if someone hurt my wife or kids, Id never let it go. Never. No way. No how. So I think we are fighting an uphill battle on this one.

Words hurt your feelings, bombs kill your family.

By Hadden Knough

August 23, 2006 11:39 AM | Link to this

Realist - no one white or black should forget the slavery and racist aspects of America’s history. It is easy for whites to say “Okay, lets move on”, and then be perplexed when blacks don’t. However, it is unhealthy and counterproductive to live in the past. Someone once said those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it. Seems like is also true that those who relive the past are doomed to repeat it if only to satisfy themselves that they are still right.

By Van

August 23, 2006 11:41 AM | Link to this

sct,

Wrong again my man, Grew up in sunny southern California. Military moved me around though.

By Amelia

August 23, 2006 11:41 AM | Link to this

Barbara, to quote that darling of the right, Rush Limbaugh….”Words mean something”.

By Janine

August 23, 2006 11:41 AM | Link to this

My little 95 year old mother, AKA Mz. Magnolia, never hated anyone. However, she waw raised in the south. She could never get accustomed to integration, intermarriage, interracial dating , even the African Americans on television…and never hesitated to say so. When we took her to restaurants, in her later years…we were always afraid she would say something embarrassing if African Americans were sitting near us.. She seemed to me so prejudiced… Yet she adored the African Americans who lived on the farm down the road…they were her best friends….she placed her trust in African Americans for the care of her child, and when she was ill, she trusted them to take care of her and loved all of her caretakers and trusted them above her friends. So…was she prejudiced.?

By Barbara

August 23, 2006 11:43 AM | Link to this

Wow Jim. This is really looking like a great discussion. There are so many thoughtful opinions being expressed. I’m enjoying reading everyone’s posts today. (Well, everyone except you, getalife. Please get on topic like everyone else has done.)

Congrats Jim, and everyone participating. Absolutely wonderful and interesting opinions coming from many, including some newcomers.

Sincerely,

Barbara

By Amelia

August 23, 2006 11:44 AM | Link to this

That is a very good post Janine. Food for thought.

By deegee

August 23, 2006 11:48 AM | Link to this

If whites were 12% or 13% of the population in the US how do you think they would answer the question, “can we talk about prejudice in this country?”

By sct

August 23, 2006 11:51 AM | Link to this

Southern California??? No wonder you left, too many libs, hippies and mary jane.

I’m from Nixon, B-1 Bob, conservative, Born Again, Orange County myself, can’t you tell?

By Liberal

August 23, 2006 11:52 AM | Link to this

Rarringt,

I think Barack Obama summed it up the best last year, when after the Katrina crisis he stated that blacks do not draw the difference between passive indifference and institutional racism, while many whites do. I guess it all depends on what your life experiences have been and what you have been taught. Another, more humorous take on the differences in the perception of racism among blacks and whites is when Chris Rock stated that after the OJ Simpson verdict, black folks were too happy and white folks were too mad. I laughed for days after hearing that.

Janine,

In regards to your mother, being that she was raised in the South, it isn’t at all unusual for her to have personal interaction with blacks despite her racist views. Many whites in the South had friendships with blacks during Jim Crow, however those friendships were contigent on the invisible line not being crossed—i.e. sexual relationships, integration, etc. On the other hand, Northern racism was more based on total separation in most aspects of personal life despite interaction in formal settings, such as in public facilities and the workplace.

By time for the truth

August 23, 2006 11:53 AM | Link to this

had enough …

so how much longer is slavery going to be used by American blacks as an excuse, reason or justification etc for different treatment or extra sensitivity?

another 100 - 200 - 500 hundred years?

the longer blacks keep rehashing the slavery thang the longer the poison will remain for at least some in race relations. Jews do not endlessly demand special treatment for the holocaust which was actually far worse a crime than even than slavery, and there are still folks alive who went through that horror.

no one is saying slavery, which was a bestial vile evil practice should ever be forgotten, many whites have been systematically enslaved in the past - obviously not as as recently as 140 or so years ago!! should we be equally bitter against the ancestors of those who did this? slavery still goes on in the arab world and the far east…. what about these CURRENT VICTIMS?? who speaks for them?

By Barbara

August 23, 2006 11:56 AM | Link to this

Yes Amelia, words do mean something. But haven’t you ever had a verbally awkward moment? Or known anybody who just wasn’t able to express themselves in a non-abrasive way? Do we hold such instances against someone forever?

Janine, I had similar experiences with my grandfather. He used physical descriptions to identify the folks he was talking about when he talked to others. He included skin color, hair color and age in his descriptions, and he wasn’t careful to be sensitive about it. He’d just blurt it out. However, he never hated anyone. He taught all of us to love and respect everyone around us.

I have another example that is more current. When my children were very young they went to a daycare close to my house. This particular daycare didn’t have any black families attending at the time, so my children had very limited exposure. Once while in the grocery store, my then 4 year old son looked up to me while we were standing in line, pointed at the man behind us and said “Momma, why is that man brown?” Was he prejudiced? No, he saw something different and was simply trying to learn by asking questions and expressing himself to someone he trusted (his mother). My first reaction was horror! I took a quick sideways glance at the man and he was about to wet his pants he was laughing so hard! Thank goodness he understood and did not take offense at my son’s innocent questions.

I really think the biggest problem with prejudice is the people that take offense too easily.

By rarringt

August 23, 2006 11:58 AM | Link to this

Dusty,

Let me ask you this: What is the mission of U.S. troops in Iraq?

Just kidding, y’all. It’s a very refreshing change to see such a thoughtful blog today. Great call, Jim. Great job, everyone.

By Barbara

August 23, 2006 12:02 PM | Link to this

rarringt, that was so funny! When I first read your comment “Let me ask you this………..”, I thought we had finally unmasked a multiple ID stealer! Then when you said JK, I got a good glimpse of your sense of humor.

Very funny. Very very funny! Thanks for the laugh.

By Van

August 23, 2006 12:03 PM | Link to this

deegee,

“If whites were 12% or 13% of the population” Been there and done that. For a while I lived in Kialua, Hawaii, Island of Oahu. Being military, poor and white, I was on the bottom 10% of the population.

The police had a rule of thumb, if a local(non white) and a white were in an accident, the white guy got the ticket - that simple. If they saw the military base sticker on your car, there was not doubt you were at fault.

How did we manage - good question, we kept our nose clean and did our work, we gave them no cause to look our way.

Individually, they were great people, the locals, collectively, they did not like folks from the main land, military or poor folks.

By getalife

August 23, 2006 12:04 PM | Link to this

Babs,

How wingnut of you to skip over Dusty’s hatred.

Typical. You must be Dusty.

By Hadden Knough

August 23, 2006 12:05 PM | Link to this

Yes, Janine, unfortunately she was prejudice. Like most whites of that era she was product of her upbringing. Many of us had relatives who were the same way. They were comfortable with and liked blacks they lived with or associated with on a regular basis, as long as they stayed in their place. This dual way of looking at things never seemed to trouble them. Maybe it was a way of dealing with what they had been raised to believe vs. what they came to feel in their hearts. We all wrestle with it still even if we don’t want to admit it.

By Barbara

August 23, 2006 12:09 PM | Link to this

getalife, you busted me. I am Dusty. The gig is up. Only someone as smart as you could have figured that one out!

What an idiot! First, I didn’t see any hatred in her post. Second, there you go again posting something that has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TOPIC!

Idiot!

By Realist

August 23, 2006 12:10 PM | Link to this

Examining your heart is easy Hadden Knough. Actually taking what you find there and incorporating it into your life the next time you are on the golf course or basketball court (stereotyped there, I know) with your buddies is something else. Its a rare guy who actually does that because its not easy to change actions you are been part of your entire life. Not for either side.

By Chazman

August 23, 2006 12:12 PM | Link to this

Just saw where the White House released info saying our President is a big reader, that he has read 60 books this year. Seriously. That means he has read a book every 3.9 days so far this year. And from the partial list they released, these ain’t comic books. You Bush supporters out there, do you really believe this? Just more insane crap from this administration. I guess they think everybody is stupid enought to believe it. Of course, Rush will probably gloat about this for an hour and a half today and all of his sheep listners will believe it.

By Realist

August 23, 2006 12:13 PM | Link to this

Getalife’s comments should remind us all that we must continue our fight against drugs in this country.

By Amelia

August 23, 2006 12:16 PM | Link to this

By Barbara

August 23, 2006 11:56 AM | Link to this

Yes Amelia, words do mean something. But haven’t you ever had a verbally awkward moment? Or known anybody who just wasn’t able to express themselves in a non-abrasive way? Do we hold such instances against someone forever?

I think that everyone has had a verbally awkward moment, but there is a very huge difference in that and someone that consistently spouts such invectives. And I know that many of you here don’t particularly place much credence in psychology, but it is pretty well known and accepted that words that you may use in as you say an “awkward” moment have been a part of your psyche, your subconcious thought. It is a true feeling. Provided the proper stimulation it surfaces. If you had none of these subconcious thoughts, prejudices, etc., you would not have “awkward” moments in regard to that subject.

By Markus

August 23, 2006 12:18 PM | Link to this

It’s more about who’s doing the talking than about what’s being talked about in reference to what is potentially “offensive.”

Democrats and minorities can get away with saying just about anything, and there is no uproar from politicians, media, or the public.

Young’s comments are just the latest example. Hillary and Indians; Biden on Indians and 7-11s; Byrd and using the “n” word describing certain whites; black activists saying “cracker” and “chalkie.” The list of hypocrisy goes on and on and on.

Of course, someone like me can’t even bring up mentioning “agressive panhandling” in downtown ATL like I did last week without the usual forum suspect snapping and calling me a racist among a host of other things.

I find it interesting that so many apparently from the left on this blog think it’s totally justifyable to use homosexuality as a reference point in attempting to insult conservatives here. But the minute a conservative says that he doesn’t agree with legalizing gay marriage, said connservative is labeled as a bigot, homophobe, hate monger, blah blah blah.

Careful out there folks, if you even think about criticizing or casting in any negative light an ideology, ethnic group, or any other separatist entity that takes away from the identity of who the individual is, you will be labeled as full of “hate.” DISCLAIMER: this is not true if against white males, straight white males (or Jeff Gannon), Christian straight white males, Christians, conservatives, and anyone in a minority group that happens to be a conservative and/or Republican like Condi Rice.

By rarringt

August 23, 2006 12:25 PM | Link to this

Deegee,

They’d probably act like the majority in virtually every way, and those in the minority would likely feel discriminated against because they are, well, minorities. Further, elements of the majority would probably blame much of “what’s wrong” with that country on the minorities.

Sometimes, minorities like to act as if, put into power, they’d do things better. But power corrupts, and absolute power…you get my point.

Welcome to the world of St. Thomas Aquinas, and inherent self-interest.

The challenge is to have leadership that listens to both perspectives, and tries hard to find common ground to unite on. That’s why this country, despite having faults, still works. We all love what it stands for. Freedom. Equality. Opportunity.

Sometimes it works out that way, sometimes not so well. The founding fathers, so lovingly batted around in here, understood all that (that’s where the “towards a more perfect union comes from).

Racism, like sexism, anti-(fit in any religion)ism, classicism, etc., have only worked to divide us as a people. It’s a very effective control technique.

To change, we have to change our nature, but just slightly. It’s possible. After all, instead of operating as a bunch of savage beasts who embrace pure darwinism, we operate as a nation of laws.

Way I figure, if we can put men on the moon, we should be able to keep kids in school seats learning about how to get along with others.

By RetiredLTC

August 23, 2006 12:27 PM | Link to this

TFTT, in your 11:33 you accused Amelia of some sort of slam against Jews. Is it not true that the hatred that arose in the Weimar Republic against Jews is historical fact? And that that hatred was stoked by the political rhetoric that accompanied Hitlers rise to power. Going back through the blog I saw nothing in any of her posts that were anti-Jew in any way form or fashion. And so far as her attack on you, from following these posts from time to time, she gave you what you deserve.

By Michael Silly Savage

August 23, 2006 12:27 PM | Link to this

Like you, Markus, Jeff Gannon is one of my personal heroes. Thanks for singling him out for us, buddy.

Jeff Gannon’s personal services to our President and his staff are exemplary, so I hear.

What do you hear, Markus? Like Captain Freedom, Gannon is another fine American I’d love to meat.

By deegee

August 23, 2006 12:28 PM | Link to this

My mother has awkward moments every day. She doesn’t consider them awkward but other people do.

By getalife

August 23, 2006 12:29 PM | Link to this

Babs,

Of course, a wingnut opinion on ml is your opinion. Its like all the wingnuts with one brain.

Sheep.

Chazman,

Thanks to OBL (Yes, the one that did 9/11) w never finished “My Pet Goat”.

By rarringt

August 23, 2006 12:32 PM | Link to this

Mike Savage said

What do you hear, Markus? Like Captain Freedom, Gannon is another fine American I’d love to meat.

Hee hee! Watch your back (literally), because Mike might love to “meat” you too, Markus.

ROFL

By sct

August 23, 2006 12:33 PM | Link to this

I tend to agree with Markus on this one.

Case in point. Recently a black Morehouse student was tortured and murdered. The suspects are all black.

Can you imagine if the murder suspects were white? There would be riots in the street, outrage by the media and a visit from Jesse.

By getalife

August 23, 2006 12:33 PM | Link to this

BTW Babs, I am not today’s topic.

By Barbara

August 23, 2006 12:36 PM | Link to this

Amelia, I personally find psychology an interesting field and subject. When I was a girl I wanted to be a psychologist, but life-choices and current paths headed me in a different direction when it was time to choose a career.

I agree with you that if you blurt out hate words, then those words were living in your heart to begin with. I’m not talking about such an obvious “verbally awkward” moment. I’m talking about much more subtle comments.

Okay, I’m going to take this somewhere I really didn’t want to, but it’s a good example. And I guarantee someone will get offended, but here goes.

One perception that I have always heard, and have seen for myself, is “black people can’t swim”. Now I know this is not entirely true; I’ve seen plenty of blacks swim. But the premise behind it is solid. The ancestory of blacks included genetics that produced muscles that were, in general, more dense than those of white ancestory. As a result, there was less fat in a black person’s muscles. Fat helps us float, or not sink. Now this extra dense muscle is also what makes blacks more athletic. It’s a good trait. I wish I was more muscular and athletically inclined. But regardless of how I feel about that trait, the minute I say “black people can’t swim”, I’m labeled prejudiced, even though I’ve seen evidence to support it.

But remember the movie title “White men can’t jump”? Oh that was funny. And not at all prejudiced, right?

With the interracial marrying, and children produced by interracial couples, this trait will eventually go away. There are other physical characteristics that are a result of ancestory too. Many of those characteristics have been preserved because the races selected mates of similar origin, and we see those eroding too. I personally think it’s a shame. I like differences. It’s what makes each of us individual in our own way. If we all think the same, act the same, talk the same, look the same, what a boring world this would be.

By Realist

August 23, 2006 12:38 PM | Link to this

I had an awkward moment the other day after meeting a woman I didnt know I asked, “when is the baby due”, only to find out she wasnt pregnant. According to Amelia and her two semesters of Psych 101 , I must have some subconscious yearning or fetish for pregnanat women? Or would it be fat women? Or, is my true subconscious self really striving to experience that awkward feeling itself? I mean, if a tree fell in the forest and nobody was there to hear it…….

HOGWASH!

By Larry Byrd

August 23, 2006 12:40 PM | Link to this

We can’t jump Barbara. Ever seen a white Spud Webb?

By Realist

August 23, 2006 12:42 PM | Link to this

I think the mexicans and asians are doing a damned good job of proving they are poor swimmers as well. They are drowing at a rate of about 3 per week around the area lakes. Some in about 4 feet of water just off the bank.

Color of skin has nothing to do with it. If you have never swum, you cant swim!

I have never flown a jet. I assure you if I tried Id kill myself.

By Amelia

August 23, 2006 12:43 PM | Link to this

No Realist. The faux pax with the fat woman did not originate with your subconcious. It originated with your eyes. Totally different scenario.

By Barbara

August 23, 2006 12:43 PM | Link to this

I know Larry! We don’t have any rhythem either…….. But we can float like there’s no tomorrow!!!!

By rarringt

August 23, 2006 12:45 PM | Link to this

That’s because you’re missing a lot of context, Barbara.

Black people were more muscular during slavery because they were bred, much like cattle. But that’s really besides the point. After all, olympic swimmers aren’t really known for their excess fat content, are they?

I’m a huge fan of water and love to swim. So do most of the folks in my family, and my friends’ families. I used to love going to the community pools and playing with everyone, black, brown, white, green w/purple stripes, etc. But to your point, there are a few reasons “some” blacks don’t swim:

Some women simply don’t like to get their hair wet. Some folks never learned. Some are plain scared of the water.

Just about everyone knows someone, regardless of ethnicity, who fits the above excuses. But you don’t acknowledge that. Most of the black folks in your analysis, I would gather, exist solely in the stereotypes you’ve heard and bought into.

Which is my point. It’s all about incorrect and meaningless stereotypes, because believing in those is much better than learning the awful truth - we’re all a whole lot more similar than we’d like to believe.

By Amelia

August 23, 2006 12:45 PM | Link to this

And by the way Realist. I am a practicing psychologist with a PHd in that field.

By Realist

August 23, 2006 12:47 PM | Link to this

Amelia, dont get defensive, Im ashamed to say my minor was Psychology.

Btw, congrats on the PHd. Couldnt swing the MD huh? :)

By Mike

August 23, 2006 12:47 PM | Link to this

Realist your pregnant woman post made absolutely no sense. Sometime I wonder who’s dumber. You or TFTT.

By Michael Silly Savage

August 23, 2006 12:48 PM | Link to this

Good point Barbara - Strom Thurmond is always accused of being a bigot for not wanting “n@gras” in his swimming pools, but it was just a concern for their personal safety.

And we all know how black people are so suspicious of whitefolk trying to help them!

By getalife

August 23, 2006 12:49 PM | Link to this

Well Amelia,

Please summarize the minds of the bloggers here. Include me if you wish, I can take it.

By Barbara

August 23, 2006 12:51 PM | Link to this

rarringt, I know that stereotye is not true. Note, I said I knew it wasn’t true. My point is that there are phyisical differences. There are also cultural differences. I think humankind has much in common. Many similarities. But I’m opposed to the destruction of our differences. Take a different example. Look at the crayons in a 12 or 24 count box. Each one is a different color and can be used in a different way, and maintain it’s uniqueness, but together, the colors paint (or color, I guess) a really pretty picture.

Now, melt them all down so that they’re all mixed together into one giant crayon. Yuck! No differences. Nothing to distinguish one from another. Everything the same. I personally don’t like that option. I enjoy differences. That’s all I was trying to point out.

I predicted I’d offend; I just didn’t realize it was going to be everyone on the blog. That wasn’t my goal, I assure you.

By Realist

August 23, 2006 12:53 PM | Link to this

Well Mike, let me help you and explain for you. You see Amelia and Barb and I, (notice you werent in the conversation as to why you are now trying to catch up and are confused) were talking about having an awkward moment and saying something that came across as awkward or that you didnt really mean. Amelia shared her experience in psychology to suggest that when we have these uncomfortable moments and slips its because deep in our subconscious these feelings or thoughts or ideas really exist. Therefore I offered my awkward moment experience and tried to figure out, with Amelias helps, where in my subconscious this slip could have orginated. Are you clear on it now Mikee?

By Barbara

August 23, 2006 12:56 PM | Link to this

Mike, regarding your 12:47 post, I beg to differ with you. I am a large woman myself, and have had 4 children. I have both made, and received the “When’s the baby due” comments when there was no baby coming! It most assuredly is an awkward moment for both the commenter and the recipient. And the sad thing is that the commenter really is trying to share a happy moment with the other person. Both are left feeling really bad!

My husband once told me his policy on that matter. Never ask a woman if she’s pregnant unless you actually see the baby coming out! I now follow his advice and haven’t had that awkward moment again!

By getalife

August 23, 2006 12:57 PM | Link to this

I conclude from Realfakes’s tiny mind that it is a real fake.

By J Tom

August 23, 2006 12:57 PM | Link to this

I second (third, fourth?) the kudos over today’s blog. Interestingly, I find myself in agreement with several whom I have disagreed with in the past.

For many years now we have been drilling into our society that prejudice is wrong. Without diminishing our efforts on that, is it time to begin emphasizing to minorities that ‘opportunities are there - you can do it - we can help!’? Yes, I know things are not completely equal, but will that EVER be the case in a non-homogeneous society?

Mr. Young (and undoubtedly Mr. Gibson) has said outrageous things in the past. He is a human, subject to his experiences, but isn’t everyone? We should be intelligent enough to realize that our own personal experiences can not be extrapolated into a general rule.

Instead of an apology, I would much rather Young address the question of why non-English speaking, non-whites can open businesses in black communities rather than blacks? Is there something we can do in schools, lending institutions, or whatever that will change the conditions or mindset in the black community that is giving us this result?

By Mike

August 23, 2006 01:00 PM | Link to this

Anyone with a minor in psychology should know the difference in the two cases. And she is right one originates in the mind, the other with the eyes. Not rocket science Realist. And by the way Realist. Are you on work release today. Did they let you out of that “gated” community you live in? Which county jail are you in Realist?

By Liberal

August 23, 2006 01:04 PM | Link to this

Now, melt them all down so that they’re all mixed together into one giant crayon. Yuck!

I don’t know if I agree with you Barbara. I submit to you the lovely women of Brazil :)

By rednecks - Amerikkka's Al Qaeda

August 23, 2006 01:09 PM | Link to this

What can one do with a pasty white crayon? I’m with you liberal.

By Bluer

August 23, 2006 01:10 PM | Link to this

You know this whole discussion has me wondering about the current fascination with diversity. We are instructed to value it, to express it, to experience it, and to live it everyday. Diversity is good we are told. More specifically we are told to actively notice and be conscious of the fact everyone is not like us But as soon as someone suggests differences exists between us the world drops an anvil on them. Similarly we have it beat over our heads to be blind to others race, creed, color, national origin, and sexual orientation. But as soon as it is to their advantage, others make sure we are aware of their race, creed, color, national origin, or sexual orientation. I’m a Caucasian, Baptist, white, male heterosexual, of indeterminate western European origins. Revel in my diversity or turn a blind eye. I really don’t care.

By sct

August 23, 2006 01:15 PM | Link to this

One thing you won’t find in that giant crayon is Native Americans, Crayola expelled Indian Red a few years ago.

By @@

August 23, 2006 01:18 PM | Link to this

Mr. Wooten: It would appear as though you have accomplished your goal here today. Very thoughtful and open sharing, so I’d like to add a little something to my original post.

For those who say that they can’t forget the injustices of slavery I would suggest…don’t forget it…but don’t drag it around and allow it to become the weight that slows your progress if you’re black.

I came from a family riddled with problems. I wasted way too many years letting those problems stagnate my life. I put aside the baggage. I’m better for it and everyone around me is better for it. You’ll tend to want to pick that baggage back up on occasion, usually when you’re in a defensive mode. Just remind yourself of how heavy it was and how it slowed you down. Leave it where you left it.

Realist:

In that the word “fat” spans all ethnicities, and women can be sensitive about their weight, especially after having bore children for men, may I suggest that you use the word “fluffy”. It always brings to mind something pink & yummy. Cotton candy. Something everybody loves. Melts in your mouth, sticky and unmanageable but satisfies your sweet tooth.

Just a suggestion.

By Barbara

August 23, 2006 01:20 PM | Link to this

Liberal, yeah, I hear ya. But lovely, compared to what? If we all looked the same, it would not be nearly as interesting. Or as much fun. Nor would we have choices.

Yes, I said choices. I personally prefer larger men, typically blue collar variety, scruffy, muscular, but many of my girlfriends like very slim, “metrosexual” looking, snappy dressing men. Now if all men looked the same, we wouldn’t be able to pick what we like. I like the post by Bluer. If diversity in humankind is such a great thing, why don’t we embrace it instead of trying to make everyone the same? And when we do point out differences, why are we labeled prejudiced?

By time for the truth

August 23, 2006 01:21 PM | Link to this

retired … you completely misread my post …

I actually pointed out the earlier ludicrous attempt by amelia to try and meld the nazi treatment of jews to her as usual utterly unsupported assertion that the USA is somehow replicating that kind of treatment to illegals.

as ever I note she has dismally failed to respond to any of those factual thoughtful points I made, except to proffer an hysterically, purely emotional abusive tirade making her usual dishonest sweeping assertions with not one iota of reasoned argument.

amelia is clearly rather dim and consistently proves she cannot debate!!

By Quote This

August 23, 2006 01:22 PM | Link to this

“The real differences around the world today are not between Jews and Arabs; Protestants and Catholics; Muslims, Croats, and Serbs. The real differences are between those who embrace peace and those who would destroy it; between those who look to the future and those who cling to the past; between those who open their arms and those who are determined to clench their fists.”

Bill Clinton

By Realist

August 23, 2006 01:24 PM | Link to this

Mike, So what you are saying is there can be more than one type, perhaps 1000’s of types of awkward comments or moments, each having different origins and meaning, and not nessicarily coming from ones on core principles and beliefs? Hmmm. I think we are making the same point Mikee.

By time for the truth

August 23, 2006 01:28 PM | Link to this

poor old micky is fast proving he’s as dim as amelia … which is very bad news for him!!

By sct

August 23, 2006 01:28 PM | Link to this

Talk about diversity…..

LOS ANGELES - Get ready for a segregated “Survivor.” Race will matter on the upcoming season of the CBS show as contestants will be divided into four tribes by ethnicity. That means blacks, whites, Latinos and Asians in separate groups.

Who has the best chance to win?

Blacks- Not likely, too much swimming.

Asians- Very smart and no driving involved, could win.

Latinos- They will have the best constructed and landscaped camp and their dishes will be clean. My favorites to win

Whites- Might win if they hire a few of the latino’s to build their camp and make their fire.

By RetiredLTC

August 23, 2006 01:34 PM | Link to this

When have you ever made a thoughtful or factual point TFTT. You wallow in regurgitated rhetoric that fortunately has seen its day come and go. Amelia is far more thoughtful, factual, and intelligent than you ever hope to be. Have a good day sir/mam.

By rednecks - Amerikkka's Al Qaeda

August 23, 2006 01:37 PM | Link to this

Unfortunately, J Tom, American blacks had their African cultures and tribal identities stripped from them on the slave ships. Over here, since they were in fear for their lives, those that weren’t murdered or worked to death were degraded, humiliated, and taught obedience and subservience, and also suspicion and, naturally, a deep hatred for white authority. Not personal tendencies that often lead to financial success.

When slavery ended, new opportunities for blacks did not emerge - the cruelty of slavery was replaced by the viciousness of Jim Crow and those great American terrorists (history’s most successful terror organization) the KKK.

Thomas Sowell’s book Black Rednecks, White Liberals makes a very compelling case that the culture of many slaves’ descendants is actually redneck culture - a belief in violence, a despair for the future (so why not be lazy), poor and no parenting skills, high rates of bastardy and incest, wife- and child-beating, substance abuse, a deep distrust of education and educated people, primitive religious practices, an inability to handle money, a reliance on illegal income and/or government handouts, etc. - the same kind of societal problems we see among whites in Appalachia and southern and western rural areas.

Add to this mix the additional prejudice and racism of whites, (and other Americans, including Caribbean blacks) even white elites, and the prospects for black businessespeople are daunting.

Sowell writes about how the urban gangster image is just the Zell Miller violent hillbilly type unleashed on the city. Tell me, wouldn’t you think twice or maybe three times about investing in black people and black communities, given the cultural backdrop.

Of course, I would be very wary to invest in a business in white rural Georgia too. A legal business anyway.

By deegee

August 23, 2006 01:37 PM | Link to this

If you put a pasty white crayon against a dark background it looks okay. I guess it is all a matter of context.

By time for the truth

August 23, 2006 01:37 PM | Link to this

retired must be getting senile …

too funny - having made a fool of yourself delivering an unwarranted patronising lecture about the Reich and been politely told that you utterly misconstrued what the issue was you simply become abusive … what a tw@t!!

By time for the truth

August 23, 2006 01:39 PM | Link to this

Of course, I would be very wary to invest in a business in white rural Georgia too. A legal business anyway.

does that include down in Ty Ty rednekkks - the London of GA as it were??!!

By passerby

August 23, 2006 01:41 PM | Link to this

Once TFTT and realist arrive one might as well go watch Limbaugh or Hannity. The script is the same.

By time for the truth

August 23, 2006 01:44 PM | Link to this

passerby

so when the lefties hurl abuse we’re supposed to be meek cyber punching bags?

you sure sound like yet another moral fascist!!

By Realist

August 23, 2006 01:46 PM | Link to this

Actually passerby, I take offense to that because its simply not true. One can read the posts here today and see quite clearly who is staying on topic and who is not.

RIF MF

By time for the truth

August 23, 2006 01:46 PM | Link to this

Add to this mix the additional prejudice and racism of whites, (and other Americans, including Caribbean blacks) even white elites, and the prospects for black businessespeople are daunting.

so now afro-caribbeans are racist too … HUGE SMIRK …what about black labradors and black ppodles opr black rabbits or black mambas? are they racist as well??

By time for the truth

August 23, 2006 01:48 PM | Link to this

Add to this mix the additional prejudice and racism of whites, (and other Americans, including Caribbean blacks) even white elites, and the prospects for black businessespeople are daunting.

so now afro-caribbeans are racist too … HUGE SMIRK go tell a heavily tooled up yardie that rednekkks and watch the respect you get!!

…what about black labradors and black poodles or black rabbits, black bears or black mambas? are they racist as well??

By passerby

August 23, 2006 01:48 PM | Link to this

The Reich is something that you love and cherish isn’t it TFTT? You little ignorant, neo-nazi skinhead, piece of garbage.

By Barbara

August 23, 2006 01:51 PM | Link to this

Okay Realist, as a parent of teen-agers, I pride myself on keeping up with all the acronyms. What is RIF MF? (I think I know the MF part…..)

By Fall Line

August 23, 2006 01:53 PM | Link to this

When I think of the inability of African-Americans to get over the scourges of slavery, I think of the feelings held by Max Rusoff, “The Great Jew” of Pat Conroy’s excellent book, “Beach Music.” He hated his son-in-law because of his brilliant blue eyes. Those eyes reminded him of the Nazis who had brought such havoc into his life. He was unable to get over this hatred. The many good things had happened to him since his escape from Nazi Poland couldn’t make up for the terrible things that had happened to him and his family. His new life was ruined bacuse of this hate he held so fondly in his heart.

At some point, you have to put the past behind you and realize that life can be rebooted. If you live in a past that you hate, all your days will be filled with that hate.

When I was a young man, I paid my bills at Armstrong College in Savannah by selling bread for a small company that praised itself as being “The South’s Finest Since 1841.” Since I was the summer replacement, my route was always into the poorer sections of the city. I knew West Broad street like the back of my hand. Some of my customers were black and some were Jews. They were all nice to me. I never cheated them and to the best of my knowledge, they never cheated me.

I’ve come a long ways since those days and have lived on three continents before winding my way back to Georgia. I’ve seen hate and prejudice everywhere I’ve been. In Europe, the Germans hate the French, and the French hate everyone who is not French. The Spnish hate the Portuguese, and the English hate anyone who is non-white. In Australia, the plight of the Aborigines is a story that has not yet been fully told. The Japanese have a string tradtion of xenophobia that exists to this day.

What was amazing to me in all my travels was how much this hatred was pushed to back burners and seldom ever discussed in open. It was just something that was not done.

I remember at a reception when I was attending Syracuse University, I was introduced to a Japanese visitor as a southerner. The phase my yankee host used was “Rebel.” The poor Japanese recoiled in horror and almost fell over herself getting as far away from me as possible. I always supposed she thought the Civil War was still in progres.

By time for the truth

August 23, 2006 01:53 PM | Link to this

The Third Reich is something my grandfather spent over FIVE years fighting passerby 1939 - 1945 - that’s a lot longer than you yanks did!! (no offence to NORMAL Americans).

I despise white nazis/racists and I despise black nazis/racists too. Is that sufficient equality for ya??

As ever - NO attempt to debate the topic - just more hysterical abuse!!

By time for the truth

August 23, 2006 01:57 PM | Link to this

the English hate anyone who is non-white

that’s a bare faced LIE mate!! we also hate the French!!

By Realist

August 23, 2006 02:00 PM | Link to this

Come on now Barb, you remember the commercials, RIF? Reading Is Fundamental. Its really an older one more of our generation than the teens of today.

My friends and I would just say “RIF” as a short way of saying, pay attention stupid!!

By passerby

August 23, 2006 02:00 PM | Link to this

So why do you sound like such a neo nazi then TFTT?

By time for the truth

August 23, 2006 02:02 PM | Link to this

but Realist - you didn’t say what MF stands for - I assume that is what passer by is?

By time for the truth

August 23, 2006 02:03 PM | Link to this

are you still beating your husband then passerby??

By passerby

August 23, 2006 02:08 PM | Link to this

How man swastika tatoos do you have TFTT?

By time for the truth

August 23, 2006 02:10 PM | Link to this

two less than you passerby!!

By passerby

August 23, 2006 02:13 PM | Link to this

What’s the matter nimrod? Run out of quotes from Mein Kampf TFTT?

By rednecks - Amerikkka's Al Qaeda

August 23, 2006 02:14 PM | Link to this

tftt, o flattulating one, the problem is not that people are black, or white, or whatever - it is that they are rednecks. As you prove time and time again, even Englishmen can be stupid, ill-mannered, filthy rednecks.

I actually have friends - white and black - who have escaped redneck culture - they went out and got good educations, learned how to work hard, stopped beating their spouses and their kids, etc. Saved their money - not for a fancy house in a gated community, but for their kids educations, or more school for themselves.

By J Tom

August 23, 2006 02:16 PM | Link to this

Oh, please, rednecks - Amerikkka’s Al Qaeda.

I am not asking for yet another diatribe as to why things are the way they are. I’ve heard most of the justifications. I’m saying there’s ample evidence that a person in our society can succeed regardless of skin color, that bigotry, though still around, is no longer severe enough to hold anyone back.

What I AM asking for are ideas as to how to CHANGE the mindset and conditions of African Americans to see that today is not the past, and to take advantage of the same opportunities that other minorities of all skin colors do. As a white American (who has hired, promoted, performed volunteer work, and encouraged minorities of many types) I am at a loss as to what more I or society in general can do to change the situation. Declaring all African-Americans victims and awarding them and their heirs, in perpetuity, lifetime support doesn’t help them or society.

Reading between the lines, it sounds like you are saying the situation is hopeless. I do not accept that.

By Jim Wooten

August 23, 2006 02:18 PM | Link to this

Hey, folks, this blog is going to look and sound a lot more substantial at the end of the day if you don’t take passerby’s bait. It’s taking us nowhere.

By time for the truth

August 23, 2006 02:19 PM | Link to this

well bollock chops I have actually never read Mein Kampf, so I dont know that Adolph actually said what I did above. You seem to be the expert though - knowing what’s in it and all that!!

Happily I have a copy of the Calypso Louis Farracrap version of Mein Kampf entitled A Message For The Black Man In America by the witless racist Elijah Muhhamed.

Wanna swap books bubba?

By rednecks - Amerikkka's Al Qaeda

August 23, 2006 02:20 PM | Link to this

Of course, tftt, I do admit that I am prejudiced against rednecks - let’s face it - they are violent, ill-mannered, dirty, carriers of unusual viruses and STDs, and often high or stoned when you talk to them.

It’s perfectly natural for decent people to be prejudiced - wary - around rednecks.

Thanks Mr. Wooten for the un-PC forum of ideas.

By time for the truth

August 23, 2006 02:21 PM | Link to this

Sorry passer by I have to run now - my ride to a Hitler Yoof rally has just shown up - see ya on the twelth of never!!

By sct

August 23, 2006 02:22 PM | Link to this

Hey, folks, this blog is going to look and sound a lot more substantial at the end of the day if you don’t take time for the truth’s bait. It’s taking us nowhere.

By passerby

August 23, 2006 02:23 PM | Link to this

So you don’t think TFTT baits others as well Jim? THe reason I do it is to give his crap right back to him. He is the biggest race baiter and destroyer on this board. Anytime someone makes substantive arguments against his agenda here he comes with his Karl Rove BS.

By time for the truth

August 23, 2006 02:24 PM | Link to this

Hey, folks, this blog is going to look and sound a lot more substantial at the end of the day if you don’t take sct’s bait. It’s taking us nowhere

By rednecks - Amerikkka's Al Qaeda

August 23, 2006 02:27 PM | Link to this

Good point Mr. Wooten. That tftt, if he’s anything he’s a master baiter. tftt, you are hereby being ignored until you behave.

By Mike

August 23, 2006 02:28 PM | Link to this

By TFTT. Good riddance to stinkin rubbish.

By Ugotta B. Kidding

August 23, 2006 02:30 PM | Link to this

Now I’M pithed! TFTT is now “THE biggest “race baiter” and “destroyer” on this board”. Just when I thought I was moving into the lead. Damn!

By time for the truth

August 23, 2006 02:30 PM | Link to this

HUGE SMIRK!!! Anytime someone makes substantive arguments against his agenda here he comes with his Karl Rove BS.

Unfortunately no one has even made any insubstantive arguments against any of my sustantive points today … but keep trying. just abuse so far … little if any actual debate.

I doubt if Karl Rove has my knowledge of European football - among other topics.

By time for the truth

August 23, 2006 02:31 PM | Link to this

thats not what you said last night Mike - you petulant pefidious beeitch!!

By Realist

August 23, 2006 02:33 PM | Link to this

Passerby, Im looking back to the very first post this morning, and I cant find ONE of yours where you had a thought or opinion that was on topic? So what gives? TFTT had some very thoughtful ideas that were pleasant to read and on topic. I dont think he comes here with the sole intent of creating a squabble, unlike you , who has ZERO infomrative or useful posts today. What say you sir?

By time for the truth

August 23, 2006 02:35 PM | Link to this

Kidding - this is hilarious - today, until very recently I stuck to the topic assiduously and produced thoughtful UNCHALLENGED POSTS - now all I get is enormously entertaining hate speech - sigh!! life is so unfair when you deal with intellectually dishonest liberals!!

By Jim Wooten

August 23, 2006 02:36 PM | Link to this

Granted, passerby that TFTT does bait sometime. But over the course of the day or the week, his posts reflect substance. As with many others here, his delivery often changes during the course of a conversation. It’s sometimes serious, sometimes confrontational, sometimes baiting, but on the whole his commentary pulls its weight. That’s my reading.

Everybody’s going to resort to zingers from time to time and go one-on-one with another poster. That’s part of the interest. But as a steady diet, that’s not particularly nourishing to others who are trying to learn something new.

By Missy Rottweiler

August 23, 2006 02:38 PM | Link to this

The world could be a much better place if we’d all just heed the words of Michael Jackson and Sir Paul McCartney in their lovely, and forever topical duet “Ebony and Ivory”. Try it and see what we can accomplish together. For the children if nothing else.

By rarringt

August 23, 2006 02:39 PM | Link to this

Oh, don’t get me wrong, Barbara, I can’t say I’m offended or mad or anything (after all, I wouldn’t last long around here if I did get offended that easily.) :^)

It’s just about trying to address misconceptions. After all, I know a few white folks who are much better dancers than I.

Ok, maybe not “much” better. :^)

By passerby

August 23, 2006 02:40 PM | Link to this

I guess birds of a feather do flock together, huh? Hard to hide that KKK Klavern kinship once the ball gets rolling. And Jim, I guess someone has to give them their forum. Good job Jim.But I do wonder which one is the Grand Wizard? TFTT or Realist?

By Realist

August 23, 2006 02:44 PM | Link to this

Wow, passerby got owned in here today. Talk about awkward moments. Sheeesh. Just leave now man, for Gods sake, leave! Every word you type lends itself to more ownage! Run for your life imbecile!

By Mike

August 23, 2006 02:45 PM | Link to this

By Jim Wooten

August 23, 2006 02:36 PM | Link to this

Granted, passerby that TFTT does bait sometime. But over the course of the day or the week, his posts reflect substance. As with many others here, his delivery often changes during the course of a conversation. It’s sometimes serious, sometimes confrontational, sometimes baiting, but on the whole his commentary pulls its weight. That’s my reading.

And he’s substantive because of what Jim? His ideology reflects “thinking right”? Your ideology. Of course it is your blog. And guess you get to let it be a bully pulpit if you wish. Maybe someday Jay Bookman will start a blog.

By Barbara

August 23, 2006 02:46 PM | Link to this

J Tom, I think in order for blacks to come out of the past and start recognizing and reveling in their opportunities, we have to have good, strong, positive role models for young and older blacks to admire. In addition, we have to downplay the racebaiting and hatred stirred up by the likes of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. Which means that our press has to stop following these trolls around over-reporting their every word and step. And we, the public, need to quit giving these haters what they want - attention and reaction. It is going to be a long process. I think most of society is on the right track. Race relations (in my opinion) have come a long way. Those who really want to see change for the better (from all races, religions, etc.) must remain stoic and stay the course, not allowing people like Jesse, Al, et. al, to derail them from this goal. We must teach our children tolerance, love and respect, but at the same time teach them that people are different and that people are supposed to be different.

We’ve made a lot of progress and as a society we’re more enlightened than ever. We have an opportunity to keep going and to get to a place where we can be happy with our differences, but as a country, and a culture, find enough in common so that we all want the same thing.

By harold

August 23, 2006 02:46 PM | Link to this

uh, actually gross and negligent racism is assuming somebody who says ‘chalkie’ and ‘cracker’ is black.

harold might be a chalkie cracker, fool, but yo’ racist a* go assuming harold must be black

By Ugotta B. Kidding

August 23, 2006 02:48 PM | Link to this

Hey, I’m getting REALLY pithed now! I’m not even in the running for Grand Wizard. Where did I do wrong?

And rarrington, I AM NOT one of those white men that can dance better than you. lol Ask my wife!

By getalife

August 23, 2006 02:48 PM | Link to this

Wow, well it was civil until crusty spewed her hatred of liberals.

It is not good enough they caused the world to hate us.

No, they have to go after Americans too.

Way to go “crusty”.

By Van

August 23, 2006 02:53 PM | Link to this

One thing I am curious about, is why did the media climb all over Mel Gibson for his drunken spewing of filth, but give Andrew Young a pat on the hand and tell him to go and sin no more?

By MarkC

August 23, 2006 02:53 PM | Link to this

Jim it does seem that you let TFTT and certain other posters here run amuck while ignoring the good and valid points that those who oppose them make at times. You always take their side. This blog way too often becomes a forum for obvious race baiting. And several of your favored posters are the ring leaders. I am really starting to wonder Jim, at what point will we see D.A. King or David Duke co-hosting this blog. You are definately not as O’Reilly says, “fair and balanced”.

By Realist

August 23, 2006 02:55 PM | Link to this

I love how Grand Wizard and KKK gets tossed around as if its something that even flipping exists anymore. They havent been an organized group in over 25 years people. Get over it pappy’s. The KKK is gone and so are the cross burings and lynchings. We are trying to work together today to try to understand each other a little better. If all you can offer is chalkie talk or KKK talk, we dont care if you are black, white or green, because you are INCONSEQUENTIAL in the grand scheme of this blog today and to those who are trying to better themselves and live a good life.

Go back out on the front poach and keep preachin white devil hate to your granchilren.

By deegee

August 23, 2006 02:56 PM | Link to this

JTom, puhhhleeease!!! “What I AM asking for are ideas as to how to CHANGE the mindset and conditions of African Americans to see that today is not the past…” I thought we were here to change the mindset and conditions of all Americans.

If Andy Young had just said that by displacing mom and pop stores Walmart is not doing a disservice to urban shoppers because those stores do not give a good value to shoppers then he would not be apologizing today. He would have made the same point without injecting unnecessary ethnic remarks.

People do the same thing every day without thinking by saying things such as, “I have a good female doctor”, “let me tell you what my intellingent black neighbor said”,(that actually appeared in one of Wooten’s blogs), or “my Mexican housekeeper made a great dinner last night”. What’s the relevance of race or gender in the conversation? Right is right and wrong is wrong regardless of the ethnic background. This is what we should be teaching our kids by example.

By Ugotta B. Kidding

August 23, 2006 02:57 PM | Link to this

In my business by far the majority of my clients are black. We have had a very good relationship for many years. It’s built on mutual trust and respect. I have the utmost respect for my customers and they for me. It’s all about treating people like you want to be treated. It’s not a big mystery. But there’s TOO MUCH BIG MONEY involved for too many folks for things to change. The race baiters don’t want to give up their gravy train.

By Barbara

August 23, 2006 02:58 PM | Link to this

Thanks rarringt. Glad I did not offend. Won’t you give my position some credibility though? Part nature, part nurture. We inherit genetics and culture from our past. It’s not bad to be different. In fact, when I was a child I wanted so much to be different that I went out of my way to wear clothes that no one else would wear, to use words and tones that others didn’t use. I wanted to differentiate myself from everyone else. That went on all the way through high school. I actually went through a phase where I wore a necktie (a man’s necktie), with a button down cotton shirt, but dressy girl pants and high heeled shoes.

We should encourage kids (and adults too) to find themselves, and revel in their differences. And to take advantage of any “natural” help that the good Lord graced us with. If I had denser muscles, or better rythem, you better believe I’d be using those talents. Instead, my talents are nurturing. I believe that is at least partly because I like people for their differences, not in spite of them. Therefore, I use my talents as a volunteer youth leader/teacher. We are all blessed with different talents. Isn’t is beautiful?

By getalife

August 23, 2006 02:59 PM | Link to this

Van,

Good point.

It maybe because Young took it like a man and admitted he was wrong and keeps apologizing for it.

Something conservatives will never do. They have to admit being wrong about something first.

I bet Young learned something for his mistake and it will not happen again.

By Realist

August 23, 2006 02:59 PM | Link to this

MARKC, PASSERBY, MIKE, GETALIFE, HAROLD,

Please point out the one post any of you have made today that was on topic, and a true opinion of yours on the subject matter for today. Please give the time of the post so we can all back up and read it. We are waiting.

By J Tom

August 23, 2006 03:02 PM | Link to this

Thanks for the response Barbara.

It sounds like you’re saying that white America, despite its occasional stumbles and pockets of ignorace, is pretty much doing all it can do, and now it’s time for black America to step up. I hope that’s not too much of an oversimplification.

I don’t have much hope for the Press (sorry, Jim). As long as people will pay money to verify that there are bigger idiots in the world than they are, papers will sell what the Farrakhans, and (David) Dukes of the world say and do. At one time the MSP was above that, but not now.

By getalife

August 23, 2006 03:02 PM | Link to this

Realfake,

2:59.

By Reposter

August 23, 2006 03:03 PM | Link to this

By Realist

August 22, 2006 01:13 PM | Link to this

Just remember JK, money is the filter. Money is the filter. For many of us, when it gets too bad, we just golden parachute out of our current situation and move on to greener pastures. Greener, whiter, filtered pastures.

By Barbara

August 23, 2006 03:04 PM | Link to this

getalife, were you just not reading or listening to the news, when, within 12 hours after Mel was released, he admitted what he had done, and then he continued to apologize several times and to several different groups for days after the event? Your post to Van shows just how prejucided you are against conservatives.

There, you finally get some credit for being on topic, although I had to say it for you.

By Ugotta B. Kidding

August 23, 2006 03:04 PM | Link to this

getalife: Are you calling YOURSELF fake now???

By Redneck Convert

August 23, 2006 03:05 PM | Link to this

The KKK is gone, Realist? O no!

Next you’ll be telling me that the Easter Bunny didn’t leave that quarter under my pillow when I lost my last real tooth.

By Realist

August 23, 2006 03:06 PM | Link to this

OK Getalife cant come up with one post of substance.

Next….

By Ugotta B. Kidding

August 23, 2006 03:08 PM | Link to this

Redneck Convert: Would you please tell us how often you see the KKK? I don’t deny that there’s still a few idiots around but I’ve lived in South Georgia ALL MY LIFE and I don’t ever remember seeing any Klan members in my community.

By getalife

August 23, 2006 03:10 PM | Link to this

Mel is a conservative?

Figures.

Anyhoo, I have not seen Mel on camera apologizing but I do not watch ET.

I just saw Young on CNN saying he goofed and he resigned. That is the way it is suppose to work with professionals but for some reason it is not happening in w’s disaster. Unless you speak out but that is okay isn’t it Babs?

By Realist

August 23, 2006 03:11 PM | Link to this

Yes there are still some localized skin head freaks around who call themselvs KKK but they number only about 3000 nationwide. The KKK as it was known is officially dead and gone. At least that what Ive heard and read. And yes ugotta, when is the last time you say those idiots? In a movie, thats where.

By Barbara

August 23, 2006 03:12 PM | Link to this

JTom, yes, I do think that whites, for the most part, have done what they can and I do believe it’s time for blacks to step up. That is true. But I don’t think blacks have to do it alone. I wouldn’t want to see whites return to the mindsets of yesteryear, when it was okay to discriminate. As a society we should not tolerate that type of behavior. I just don’t think that happens as much as Jesse and Al say it does. But when someone is looking for it, they can find it in every blunder, or look, or comment, or gesture, regardless of the heart of the offender.

I feel this same way about the feminist movement. I don’t think women are as discriminated against as some crazy feminists would have us believe. I think affirmative action approaches are no longer useful in making big steps in the right direction. I think acceptance should come from a society that understands right from wrong, and people choosing to associate with folks who share those values. As a society we do have the power to shun the haters, but they’ve got some groups so stirred up that people feel more associated with the hate than with the society in total.

By time for the truth

August 23, 2006 03:13 PM | Link to this

WOW … I pop out to water my dogs again and all hell breaks lose!!

NOTHING I have written today can seriously be called race baiting!! nor racist nor bigoted.

I have commented fairly and thoughtfully on a number of issues from racism in English/EU football to slavery to shameless liberal racebaiting about the treatment of illegals in the USA - when actually comparing it to the holocaust.

These recent comments above show just how utterly intolerant liberals ARE OF ANY opposing views.

Rednekkks continuously racebaits southern whites on here yet I dont seek to have him banned or censored - I just ridicule him and mirror it back!!

Funny how NONE of them have actually debated or challenged any of my points … but they sure do sneer at lot!!

As for the cowardly sneers about the klan and so on - that’s just the kind of far left smear tactics you get for stoically sticking to an honourable political position that liberals simply cannot deal with!!!

By Ugotta B. Kidding

August 23, 2006 03:16 PM | Link to this

Yep Realist some of these folks talk all this crap but offer NO facts to back it up. The KKK my A*S!!! I’d be a lot more afraid of Arab terrorists than I would the KKK. Redneck Convert’s been told way too many stores about the boogey man.

By Van

August 23, 2006 03:17 PM | Link to this

Barbara,

Anything from getalife is consistant with his previous posts - void of life.

As we have seen with other national figures, phrases like hymmie town and other slurs can be forgiven if uttered by liberals, while a person with light skin get chastized, fired and shunned for using a word like “niggardly”.

For those in mid town, if you look it up in Websters, it will carry a meanning like this - 1 : grudgingly mean about spending or granting : BEGRUDGING 2 : provided in meanly limited supply

It is a 75 cent word for stingy.

By Pompano

August 23, 2006 03:17 PM | Link to this

Where does everyone get off on complimenting Young on apologizing so quickly? His published “apology” is anything but that - it’s more of a justification and an “everyone has faults” kinda rant.

Lamest apology I’ve ever seen

By deegee

August 23, 2006 03:20 PM | Link to this

Van, The difference between Andy Young and Mel Gibson is that Andy could have made the same point about mom and pop stores without injecting race. Mel Gibson’s remarks had no context other than anti-Semitism.

By getalife

August 23, 2006 03:23 PM | Link to this

Macaca.

By Barbara

August 23, 2006 03:24 PM | Link to this

Van, I couldn’t agree more. We conservatives have been subject to this double-standard for some time now. The good thing, and the thought that I cling to, is that it is with desperation that they lob their hateful barbs. Just like an animal who is cornered and knows it’s over, the only thing they have left is to fight with all the venom and froth they can bring up. Meanwhile we keep our cool, and stay the course. It is at least a sign that we do retain control and will prevail in the end, after they have exhausted themselves becoming so worked up.

Slowly we will get to a point where folks with more moderate views and respectful tones will be all that’s left, for the others’ heads will have exploded…….

By Ugotta B. Kidding

August 23, 2006 03:24 PM | Link to this

Admittedly the KKK was at one time, 40 and more years ago, a powerful and sinister organization. Over the past 40 years the power has shifted to the “black” KKK, the Al Sharptons, Jesse Jacksons, Andrew Youngs, and Louis Farrakhans. Instead of burning crosses and such, they shakedown corporations and mislead their people for personal gain.

By Barbara

August 23, 2006 03:27 PM | Link to this

deegee, as much as I respect debating with you, that last post is a big ole crock! If Andy could have made his point without injecting race, but he chose to inject it, how does that make him any different than someone who chose to make any other racial comment? Sorry, but that’s just BS.

By Hadden Knough

August 23, 2006 03:27 PM | Link to this

Young wasn’t making a wise crack. He was stating what he sees from his perspective as a historical fact. He is probably more shocked by the reaction than sorry for the content of his statement. That said, he has apologized in a fashion. Maybe he will go off and do some soul searching and come back with a lesson for us all.

By Dana

August 23, 2006 03:28 PM | Link to this

Surprisingly enough I’ve kept my self out of here today so far - partly because I’m busy and partly because this is a little emotional for me. I have a beautiful, wonderful, absolutely incredible niece. She is smart, she is witty, she is a beautiful little 9 year old girl. Who happens to be biracial. And I have had my eyes opened to just how prevalent prejudice is in today’s world when I am out with her. I will not repeat the comments I have heard, from BOTH sides of her racial background. It is so disheartening to know that she will be the recipient of disregard and disrespect for no reason whatsoever. And she catches it as often from one as from another. At this point, she tends to ignore it but I worry a great deal how it will change her as she grows older. Amazingly enough, people think nothing of commenting about how pretty “those kind of” children are. I think the idiots think that is some kind of compliment!

By J Tom

August 23, 2006 03:29 PM | Link to this

Barbara, You are right that there must be no going back. However, Latinos and Asians are becoming significant minorities with political and economic clout, and whites will soon by just another minority. if Black America does not improve soon, they will become marginalized and ignored.

Other minorities have neither sympathy nor guilt for the condition of Black America. They aren’t going to cut anyone any slack (e.g. affirmative action programs) I see bigger problems ahead if the situation isn’t corrected soon.

By Van

August 23, 2006 03:30 PM | Link to this

deegee,

Mel’s comments were in a drunken stupor, Andy’s we made without the aid of alcohol. Andy did not have any pretext to dodge the issue, Mell owned up and asked for help from some Rabbi’s.

By sct

August 23, 2006 03:31 PM | Link to this

So do the conservatives here admire Andy Young for not being “politically correct.”

By Ugotta B. Kidding

August 23, 2006 03:31 PM | Link to this

JTom, I very much agree with you.

By Realist

August 23, 2006 03:31 PM | Link to this

I dont think he owes any apology. Blacks DO get shaken down by korean grocery owners and whites DO get robbed and harrassed by blacks while trying to park to see a braves game. ITS FACT. Why apoligize for stating the truth.

By getalife

August 23, 2006 03:32 PM | Link to this

Yep, conservatives have done a heck of a job

You have created more enemies and more hatred for our children to fight.

Great job wingnuts.

By time for the truth

August 23, 2006 03:34 PM | Link to this

had enough …

Young has a history of doing this , like I said this morning he did it 30 or so years ago and now - clearly he thinks like this and I for one wonder just how often he says this kind of hate speech against non-blacks privately!! He knew it was a media interview and still said it. Bet the lefties on here who have been screeching about the klan dont screech about his bigotry. Blacks and liberals have a blatant double standard when it comes to racial politics - anything they do is fine - unless caught - anything a conservative says or does is a lynching offence. Sharptongue incited murder in NYC a few years back - see my link this morning - any comments on that!!

By Van

August 23, 2006 03:38 PM | Link to this

Dana,

It must be rough for her, no kid should have to fight that battle.

Oddly enough, I hae heard from some “liberal and tolerant” folks at the office, that a white woman can have a black baby, but a black woman can’t have a white baby.

I have never understood this logic of theirs and find it rather ignorant. But, don’t try to correct them, they will not listen.

By sct

August 23, 2006 03:39 PM | Link to this

Andy Young’s comments sure do make me want to screech. Mel on the otherhand is just another Hollywood nobody. Then again Republicans will probably want him to run for governor of Calif. or the Senate in Tenn.

By jbmlaw

August 23, 2006 03:41 PM | Link to this

Good afternoon, back for a few minutes. Pretty interesting material today.

UBK’s 3:08 note caused one of those stark memories of youth to come flooding back. I was around eight years old; my family was driving in the countryside near Huntsville, Alabama late one evening, when we unexpectedly came upon a cross-burning. This was not one of those little pine things the rednecks would put on the lawn of civil rights marchers, this was one of the 30 foot tall monstrosities as in “Oh Brother…”

I remember clearly my reaction, just a cold chill that August night. Nobody in my family was a civil rights marcher; we were just average “country” people, who thought it right to treat people as “people,” and not as representatives of any groups. Even at that young age I knew those cross-burners were not people like the rest of us – they were mean.

I later learned that my great-grandfather had been kidnapped and murdered (around 1905) by a group of such skinheads, leaving my grandfather – then a child – without one parent. I take some comfort that those American groups are thoroughly discredited today, and perhaps I project some of my “blood vengeance” against the Moslems, blaming the group for the similar violence in the Near East. It seems that one of my reading materials – maybe it was the AJC – recently published a long article about the demise of the KKK, attributing it to ridicule – some popular radio show was broadcasting the secrets of the KKK every week, in a mocking manner. When you hear me mock the “moonbats” or when I chuckle at TFTT’s mockery of those who would dictate what we should think or do, please appreciate that there may be a reason I appreciate the power of humor.

By time for the truth

August 23, 2006 03:42 PM | Link to this

sct’s bitterness is hilarious

Gibson is one of the biggest stars in pinko dominated hollywood in the last 20 odd years - but to you lefties he’s a nobody!! HA HA HA HA HA … keep chugging that kool aid!!

By bluer

August 23, 2006 03:43 PM | Link to this

A black family moved next door when I was in my teens. Once day I was out in yard and their little girl came over. I said hello and she announced that her mother told her that all white people are bad to black people. Later my father convinced her that he was Santa Claus. God only knows how she worked it all out.

By Ugotta B. Kidding

August 23, 2006 03:44 PM | Link to this

I’d really like to hang around longer but I must move on. I’d like to challenge sct and getalife on those “intelligent” points they just made BUT duty calls.

I hope you two know that you MUST be at least 14 years of age to post on this blog. I’m alerting Jim Wooten that you both have slipped in when he wasn’t watching. You’d better have a “photo ID”.

By Fall Line

August 23, 2006 03:44 PM | Link to this

A black woman having a white baby harkens back to the days of slavery when it was an all too often occurance.

As for whether or not the KKK is still alive, I saw a pick-up truck in Marietta just yesterday that had a sticker on the back that said, “I ride with Forrest.” I don’t think he meant Forrest Gump.

By deegee

August 23, 2006 03:45 PM | Link to this

Here you are, Barbara. The inner city stores that Andy Young is describing were once owned by Jews because their businesses were established in the inner cities and and they stayed when blacks moved to the cities in search of jobs. As the older Jews started to retire their children were generally not interested in keeping the businesses so they sold. At that time Koreans were coming to the country and looking for investment opportunities so they bought them. Now that the Korean community is gathering wealth and investing outside the cities they are selling to the next group of investors. This is the factual basis of Andy Young’s remarks. It is very different than getting arrested and asking the cop, who happens to be Jewish, if he is a Jew and then accusing his people of being behind every war ever started since the beginning of creation.

By Liberal

August 23, 2006 03:47 PM | Link to this

Both Young’s and Gibson’s comments were wrong and they both apologized. Mel Gibson’s story was more prevalent in the media for the simple fact that he is more famous than Andy Young.

We can always joke about race—i.e. Barbara’s and Rarringt’s banter about blacks and swimming and whites and jumping. Joking about differences is very funny. But sometimes comments cross the line because of historical context. For example, Young’s comments were alarming due to frustration in poorer black neighborhoods of being exploited by immigrant store owners. Don’t forget that many Korean stores were attacked and looted in the 1992 riots in LA. Trent Lott’s comments during Strom Thurmond’s b-day were alarming because Thurmond actually persued an agenda in the past that marginalized blacks.

Whenever comments are made, all that is needed is an apology and that’s it. No need for holding hands and singing “We Shall Overcome”. We’re all men and we should be able to take some ribbing as well as be man enough to apologize when going to far.

By jbmlaw

August 23, 2006 03:47 PM | Link to this

SCT, does your 3:39 post expose the limits of your intellect?

By getalife

August 23, 2006 03:48 PM | Link to this

Ug,

I am old enough to be your daddy, so run along son.

Contribute something to society besides the global warming spewing out of your mouth.

By sct

August 23, 2006 03:48 PM | Link to this

The difference between liberals and conservatives is that liberals are not stupid enough to elect these Hollywood nobody’s to office.

Reagan, Bono, Thompson, Arnie……

Mel for President!!!!

By Dana

August 23, 2006 03:50 PM | Link to this

Van, I’m shaking my head as i sit here - but you are correct, ignorant people come in all shapes, sizes, colors, ages… and they don’t hesitate to share their ignorance!

By Realist

August 23, 2006 03:50 PM | Link to this

jbmlaw,

Wow, somehow I lived in Alabama my whole life and never saw the first burning cross, and you saw one just driving through. Maybe that was way before my time, or coincidence, I dont know. Anyway, Im sure that was surreal seeing something like that.

Regarding the KKK, they got taken down like any other organization would be taken down. The ultimate demise of the KKK came at the hand of SCLC attorneys who sued thier asses ten ways to Sunday and caused untold number of judgements against them. Like everything else, KKK was as much about money as anything. Those running it lived a pretty nice life doing nothing but preaching hate and organizing like minded idiots who would “give” to the cause.

Come to think of it, does this sound familiar (Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, Cynthia McKinney)?

By Ugotta B. Kidding

August 23, 2006 03:52 PM | Link to this

Liberal: “Thurmond actually pursued an agenda in the past that marginalized blacks”…you mean like ROBERT BYRD OF WEST VIRGINIA who was a member of the KLAN??? Of course I know that’s different, right? wink, wink

Okay, okay I’m gone!

By Liberal

August 23, 2006 03:52 PM | Link to this

SCT,

LOL!

By Liberal

August 23, 2006 03:54 PM | Link to this

Ugotta,

Yes just like Byrd. However, Byrd has repeatedly apologized for his past actions as had George Wallace.

By Ugotta B. Kidding

August 23, 2006 03:54 PM | Link to this

Well getalife you ought to have more damn sense and know better!!!

By time for the truth

August 23, 2006 03:54 PM | Link to this

jbm … in all seriousness if I had been here and old enough back in the early 60’s I would have marched with the civil rights lot - as Charlton Heston and many others did way before it got “trendy”!!

cross burners are/were evil!!

Decency is decency and the klan are/were scum … no one decent defends them - my wife’s family who were blockbusted out of fairly close to downtown Atlanta thanks to Carter and Young in the 70’s still despise the klan.

No one normal who watches Miss Burning and other such films can think that it is acceptable to live or treat anyone like that - not even the French!!

By Ugotta B. Kidding

August 23, 2006 03:55 PM | Link to this

So has Mel Gibson but THAT doesn’t seem to matter to you liberals.

By Liberal

August 23, 2006 03:55 PM | Link to this

And for that matter, even Thurmond came around when he started hiring blacks on his staff. However, Trent’s comments were more in reference to his politics in 1948.

By Realist

August 23, 2006 03:56 PM | Link to this

Well said Liberal.

By Liberal

August 23, 2006 03:57 PM | Link to this

I already said in my 3:47 post that Gibson apologized.

By rarringt

August 23, 2006 03:58 PM | Link to this

Thus, human nature reigns.

What started off as a thoughtful, insightful day has declined to…this.

Do we blame any one poster? Some will point fingers, but “s/he started it” won’t suffice.

The problem is, it is more fun and interesting to play “who has the wittier put down” than to sustain a legitimate discussion.

What happens in here, happens in the larger world. We see it in Congress, in the ME, at the dinner table, frankly everywhere a dispute exists, which, frankly is everywhere.

No wonder we are obsessed with buffets, baseball, and Britney. It’s far easier to go the bread and circuses route, where we stay fat and entertained, that to accept the challenge of an enlightened democracy.

Why do so many people speak of the founding fathers, but so few choose to act like them?

Those who ignore the past are doomed to…well, they’re just doomed.

By Realist

August 23, 2006 03:59 PM | Link to this

No sct and liberal, you dont elect them, you just let the fattest rottenest no good dickless peice of s** Michael Moore set your party’s agenda and ideology.

You cant elect Moore because nobody could get his fat a* in a suit everyday!!

By Ugotta B. Kidding

August 23, 2006 04:00 PM | Link to this

No liberal, I think Trent Lott’s an A*S kisser but in his defense, I think Lott was actually just being kind of an OLD MAN! It had nothing to do with politics. Then it everything to do with the leftist media bringing Lott down cause he’s a Republican. But hey, it was fine with me cause I have no love for Trent Lott.

By J Tom

August 23, 2006 04:00 PM | Link to this

Thanks Ugotta.

At the risk of alienating any goodwill or support, I’ll offer my suggestion:

At the end of his term, Bush should call a meeting with as many black leaders as he can. Private, confidential, no press allowed (yes, just like Cheney’s energy meetings), so everyone can speak candidly (I say at the end of his term because conspiracy theorists would have a field day). He should get consensus on what it would take for them to stop preaching victimization and start pushing education, opportunity and motivation - and pay it. I don’t care if he personally had to pay Jesse a few million bucks, it would be worth it (and would leave a sight better legacy for Bush than Iraq). Hopefully some of those leaders would ask for things that would actually help the black community improve itself. I would even support something like reparations (fellow conservatives, please don’t scream) for each graduating black high schooler. That would definitely give the black leaders something to crow about.

Something needs to be done to jump-start the process.

By time for the truth

August 23, 2006 04:00 PM | Link to this

Britney??

who the hell she??

By Nel

August 23, 2006 04:01 PM | Link to this

I lived in Brooklyn when “activists” tried to force a boycott of an Asian produce market because they supposedly disrespected a black woman. It didn’t matter that the woman wanted to pay what she wanted to pay for the footstuffs. The “activists” boycotted the store for months. I suppose they all took a leave of absence from their jobs.

This was a topic of discussion for weeks in the media. The fact that these Korean markets got their funding from their own groups; that most Asian stores had the children working alongside their parents, and the fact that once the children grew up, you rarely saw their parents working again. Some fool who called in to a radio show to rant was asked why black people didn’t open their own stores, the guy said he wasn’t a slave, and wouldn’t work 18 hours a day for anyone. “Even for your own benefit?” Again he said, “No man, that’s slavery”.

From my experiences, and having been back to NY recently, these markets offer fresh, well-priced items. If there is no competiton, of course, you have a monopoly and you can charge accordintly, which business typically do, and this has nothing to do with Korean, Jews, etc. They take the risks and offer the services. I don’t ever recall any black people opening stores, and the one that did, had rotten produce and priced it way higher, and were downright rude. These people weren’t particularly friendly, but since they mostly had no idea what you said, it was no wonder. On my last trip back, the market operators spoke excellent English, joked around and were obviously much more comfortable than in the old days.

It’s always somebody elses fault of course.

By sct

August 23, 2006 04:02 PM | Link to this

For the record Realist I can’t stand any of the phony hypocrit Hollywood liberals. And Moore is an entertainer like Coulter, hate ‘em both.

By Ugotta B. Kidding

August 23, 2006 04:02 PM | Link to this

My last post should’ve read, “was being kind TO an old man”.

By Liberal

August 23, 2006 04:02 PM | Link to this

Realist,

I probably would substitute “Michael Moore” in your 3:59 post with “Rush Limbaugh”. The physical description you gave is remarkably similar.

By time for the truth

August 23, 2006 04:06 PM | Link to this

now now Liberal … Rush lost most of his weight but the obese tub of treasonous lard from Michigan hasn’t lost his!!

By deegee

August 23, 2006 04:06 PM | Link to this

Glad to know that the #1 reason to join the Klan is because they are Christians!

http://www.kkkk.net/index3.html

By Liberal

August 23, 2006 04:07 PM | Link to this

Ugotta,

That may be so, but you can understand how some may interpret the comments at the b-day party. Also, it seems that people in his own party brought him down. Who benefitted the most from Lott’s demise…none other than Bill Frist. And maybe Lott was being kind OF an old man…

By getalife

August 23, 2006 04:08 PM | Link to this

Ug,

I do son. You just don’t listen or see reality.

By time for the truth

August 23, 2006 04:09 PM | Link to this

Frist has been as poor a leader of the senate as Lott was!!

By Liberal

August 23, 2006 04:09 PM | Link to this

I’m not defending Michael Moore’s obesity, but c’mon. Rush is still a fat man. He had a long way to go when he started and he never quite made it. Than man has a physique for radio.

By Ugotta B. Kidding

August 23, 2006 04:11 PM | Link to this

Liberal, “Some” may interpret the words because it benefits their cause. I’m sure that it was an opportunity to get rid of Lott and I’m glad, but God look what we got, another A*S kisser…Bill Frist.

By Realist

August 23, 2006 04:13 PM | Link to this

Dont you know Liberal, Rush went on the opiate diet. 6 Percocets a Day is all it takes!!

Deegee, The very fact that the KKK members wore hoods and hid thier identity should be evidence that even they knew their actions were wrong, if not illegal. I dont think anyone is boasting that the KKK were Christian.

JTOM, I agree something needs to happen to jump start the process, but regarding reparations or any other sort of payment or program (in addition to the billions we already pay in welfare/medicaid), unless I can see a plan laying out how this money comes from somewhere other than hard working tax payers like me, I say HELL NO. The day that happens is the day me and my money move to the Caymans.

By time for the truth

August 23, 2006 04:13 PM | Link to this

Rush has a fine analytical brain and a real biting sense of humour, whereas moore is just a hateful, ugly on the outside and inside, luxury loving millionaire leftist chancer in it ENTIRELY for himself.

By Ugotta B. Kidding

August 23, 2006 04:14 PM | Link to this

getalife, you must be OLD if you’re old enough to be my father. lol

By deegee

August 23, 2006 04:20 PM | Link to this

Realist, you have to go to the Klan website to see that they themselves proclaim that the #1 reason to join the Klan is that they are Christians. Here’s the cut and paste from their top twenty reasons to join the Klan. These people are not some vestige from the past.

1) Because it is a Christian organization!

By harold

August 23, 2006 04:22 PM | Link to this

Dear Realist,

08:30 AM

-Chalkie Harold

By Liberal

August 23, 2006 04:25 PM | Link to this

Realist,

In regards to Rush’s opiate diet…LOL!

In regards to reparations, I highly doubt there will be a federal program set up for monetary reparations. However, affirmative action is a form of reparations. The military has done well with it and I think that it’s a step in the right direction. It shouldn’t be merely about quotas, but rather actively seeking and recruiting talent from the black community.

Also another way is to ensure that poorer blacks have better access to resources that everyone else enjoys i.e.-schools, public safety, etc.

All of this is just the beginning and I’ll be the first to admit that certain mindsets need to change within the African American community. It has only been one generation since the end of Jim Crow and it’s going to take a while to get everything going. In the meantime all you can do is accept people for who they are.

By Dana

August 23, 2006 04:28 PM | Link to this

When I moved to Atlanta in ‘89, I remember being told that there were no black families in Forsyth County because the Klan was still active. I have NO IDea if that was true, but it was certainly a widely held belief! They aren’t gone at all, folks, they just found different kinds of rocks and robes to hide under.

By Fall Line

August 23, 2006 04:32 PM | Link to this

The KKK calling itself a “Christian Organization” doesn’t make it true anymore than the Democratic Party calling itself the “Progressive Party” makes that true.

By deegee

August 23, 2006 04:35 PM | Link to this

Dana, the truth is that white Forsyth countians drove blacks out of the county in the 1930’s(?) because of the rape and murder of a white woman by a black man. Blacks were told to not let the sun set on their black a*******es or else. They were forced to leave their homes and property. Many settled in Roswell and N Fulton. To date the county is about 95% white but blacks are starting to integrate the county.

By sct

August 23, 2006 04:37 PM | Link to this

…..or the Republicans calling itself the “Family Values” party.

By time for the truth

August 23, 2006 04:41 PM | Link to this

… or the leftist DemoNcrat black caucus

By Van

August 23, 2006 04:47 PM | Link to this

Dana,

Yeah, this stuff get played up all the time. After Hosea and Oprah showed up there, the protestors out numbered the Klans men by a great number.

Growing up I was told that all Catholics had guns, so that when the Pope said so, (this was the time Kennedy was running for President)they would rise up and take the country over. This is what my protestant friends told me, a Catholic. Of course, on the other hand, I grew up thinking Jesuits were armed all the time - rumors are like stink, once it hits, it seems to hang around forever.

By Van

August 23, 2006 04:55 PM | Link to this

deegee,

Since a judge has declared the Boy Scouts are a Religious Organization, does that mean they are klansmaen also?

I hear tell that the Lutherans are also Christians, Are they KKK groupies also?

By getalife

August 23, 2006 05:04 PM | Link to this

Lets face reality folks.

Conservatives are not Christians.

They are fake like Realfake.

Warmongers, racists, hate welfare, love criminals and just plain old bad people.

They have lost their souls like our country.

By deegee

August 23, 2006 05:06 PM | Link to this

Of course not, Van. There is no logical basis in the statement that if all Klansmen are Christians than all Christians are Klansmen. I just thought it humorously ironic that the modern day Klan considers themselves footsoldiers for Christ. I also wanted to point out that the Klan is not dormant and that they are heavily involved in the deport illegals rhetoric. Illegal immigration has become their hot button issue and I wonder how many people that are so vocal on the subject might also be members of some secret society.

By Can we talk about prejudice?

August 23, 2006 05:10 PM | Link to this

I remember the quiet blackness of her face and her hair. Julie. From the window, I would watch her get off the bus and step toward our house. I would race downstairs to where she’d soon be ironing. I was only four, so I didn’t question how my mother could afford to pay someone to iron our clothes every wednesday afternoon on an air force captain’s salary.

I played at her feet as I watched her snap fresh the shirts, rotate them under the iron and stack them in neat cotton piles.

It was 1955 and afternoon television included Amos and Andy, her favorite show. She would shriek with delight as the plots unfolded and I learned the names…Kingfish….Saphire…Calhoun.

She laughed with sounds I had never heard, her face contorting in wry delight. My eyes ping-ponged from the show to her face and back as I tried to figure the connection.

I only recently learned that Amos and Andy were actors in black face.

By Pompano

August 23, 2006 05:18 PM | Link to this

J Tom’s has to be one of the dumbest posts I’ve ever read in an AJC blog (and that’s saying a lot). Must definitely be a product of APS (especially if he actually thinks he’s a conservative).

Recommending the President & the US submit to blackmail & extortion? Suggesting the President pay personal funds to extortionist leaders (don’t see you volunteering any of your own money). What a pansie.

By Van

August 23, 2006 05:18 PM | Link to this

Can we talk about prejudice?,

The TV characters were not black faced white people, but the radio actors were white.

By time for the truth

August 23, 2006 05:19 PM | Link to this

Lets face reality folks.

Conservatives are not Christians.

They are fake like Realfake.

I see that getatinybrain is still spewing its not fake hate.

There are a number of different strands of christianity - to moronically and emptily assert that conservatives are not christians is like suggesting kerry is not a cowardly lying gigolo or the albore is not an unhinged eco wacko slum lord nutter.

or are you just being a far left troll again??!!

By getalife

August 23, 2006 05:28 PM | Link to this

lies,

You prove my point with your every post.

BTW, are you a legal immigrant?

By Can we talk about prejudice?

August 23, 2006 05:37 PM | Link to this

D’oh!

By Markus

August 23, 2006 05:42 PM | Link to this

Holy COW! An entire day that was pretty much on topic (a great one I might add) sans the usual getalife off-topic bait, relatively low-flame level from all sides, and the true to word.

Everyone mark this date down on your calendar, and put it next to the Clinton/Carter North Korea nuke treaty… it’s going to be a tossup to see which one lasted longer.

By Barbara

August 23, 2006 05:43 PM | Link to this

JTom, I just got home and read your 4pm post. I whole-heartedly disagree with any form of reparations. That smacks of a something for nothing scam, much like the welfare problems we have today. I think I’ve shared this before, but when I was a child my father left my mother with 4 children, ages 2, 4, 5 and 6. He left in the night, paid no money for child support or alimony, and my mother didn’t even have a job. We grew up dirt poor. We ate dried beans and rice for almost every meal, and had meat only 1 time per week. No one ever gave me anything. Everything I have now I earned the hard way. And I appreciate it now.

Reparations are a bad idea. It tells people that they are not equal, and that they deserve something from others in order to level the playing field. That is just not true today. Hard work, dedication, honesty and integrity are all you need in order to be successful. I know it because I lived it, and that’s what I teach my children today.

Yes, you will run into prejudices everywhere you go. But it is not as rampant as people like Jesse and Al would have us believe. And we have choices. If you run into a situation that you can’t overcome, just take another path. Get a different job. Move somewhere else. In order for this to work, both sides have to be willing to be flexible (both sides meaning those who feel they don’t have an equal chance and those that feel there aren’t any problems today).

By Van

August 23, 2006 05:45 PM | Link to this

getalife,

If I didn’t know better, — are you Cynthia Tucker?

By time for the truth

August 23, 2006 05:45 PM | Link to this

You prove my point with your every post.

HA HA HA HA HA … and what point is that?

The only point you have is endlessly spewing Bush hate. I do hope you’re still drinking some Iraqi oil down there through your FEMA trailer cold water tap in what was Nagin’s chocolate murder city NO… smirk

I see YET AGAIN you cant back up your absurd assertions about christianity.

By time for the truth

August 23, 2006 05:50 PM | Link to this

I think that getatinybrain is actually tub of lard Moore’s second string food taster. And the poisons and toxins meant for Moore have fried what little is left of his reason.

By Dana

August 23, 2006 05:51 PM | Link to this

This WAS a great “discussion” today, I wish I hadn’t missed most of it. However, now that it is degenerating, I think I will say Good night all, I thank you for the information and perspectives I read today, some of it was really thought provoking. I appreciate the fact that the majority of us spoke from a human position rather than a left/right position.

By Barbara

August 23, 2006 05:52 PM | Link to this

Oh, TFTT, I forgot to give you snaps for taking up for us religious nutters. I’m getting to you, aren’t I? Seriously, you should see the big ole smile on my face right now. Thanks for having our backs!

By Markus

August 23, 2006 05:52 PM | Link to this

Easy TFTT, getalife couldn’t even back up a statement on why Iraq has no oil flowing out of it. We all know that liberals emotionalize first and think later.. that’s their ideology.

By getalife

August 23, 2006 05:52 PM | Link to this

Van,

No.

lies,

Are you a legal immigrant?

By J Tom

August 23, 2006 05:54 PM | Link to this

Realist and Pompano: I understand your feelings and principles. I would have felt the same way twenty years ago (maybe just ten).

But I’ve now seen forty years of affirmative action, welfare, Medicaid, aid to dependant children and families, the voting rights act, and innumerable other giveaway programs. Do you think they came about for reasons other than blackmail and extortion (and to some degree, white guilt)? Who do you think’s been paying for those programs for all those decades (hint, I’ve been working since ‘68 and have paid l-o-t-s of taxes)? I was trying to suggest that Bush is rich, if he wants a true legacy, he’s in position to buy one. And it would do us all a favor.

If we don’t end these things now, your children will be paying for it one way or another. What I’m suggesting would be quicker, cheaper (any idea how many trillions we’ve spent already?), and more beneficial to society than the status quo. So a couple of two-bit con artists get rich - they’re getting rich now peddling their victimization/hate programs(or am I imagining that big companies have paid Jackson off?).

OK, you can call me a bad conservative (if there were a Pragmatist Party, I would be a member); you can call my ideas stupid, but everything we’ve done for these past forty years has led us to the seemingly intractable problems we have now. To continue doing that is what I would call stupid. Unless you’ve got something ‘smart’ to suggest, then let’s try something else, even if it’s stupid.

By getalife

August 23, 2006 05:54 PM | Link to this

I answered your post waiting for an answer to mine Markus.

By Markus

August 23, 2006 05:55 PM | Link to this

Uh oh! Liberals aren’t “breeding” like conservatives out there! Well, that’s what happens when you abort and sleep around without ever getting married.

I wonder if the left is going to blame THIS on Bush this November and into 2008?

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Politics/story?id=2344929&page=1

By Van

August 23, 2006 05:55 PM | Link to this

Jim Wooten,

Can we get a sample of Cynthia’s blogging, please.

By Markus

August 23, 2006 05:56 PM | Link to this

No you didn’t getalife, and you know it. Answer my reply now.

By Barbara

August 23, 2006 05:56 PM | Link to this

getalife, if you read TFTT’s posts instead of just waiting for your turn to spew venom at him, you’d realize we discussed his immigration (legal) some time back. Do you really want to know, or are you just baiting him……. again?

By getalife

August 23, 2006 05:57 PM | Link to this

Now run along failures. Tomorrow you can spew some more of your global warming.

By Van

August 23, 2006 05:58 PM | Link to this

getalife,

Second generation American, grandmother came over from the old country, Germany, in the early 1900’s.

See, I answer your questions in a civil manner, can you return the favor?

By jbmlaw

August 23, 2006 05:58 PM | Link to this

Getalife, your 5:04 post reflects raw bigotry. You are beneath the low standards of this blog.

By time for the truth

August 23, 2006 05:59 PM | Link to this

Markus - surely you’re not suggesting getatinybrain is some kind of empty headed embittered Bush hating blow hard … I’M SHOCKED!!!

Barbara you can hammer tinybrain on any of his posts - even his one word posts.

I am actually a very senior member of MS 13 looking to buy some big shiny water pistols to shoot liberals with - you have such guns senor liberal moron?? You take dollars or pesos?

By Markus

August 23, 2006 06:00 PM | Link to this

Uhmmm, you mean that global warming that’s causing the polar ice caps to melt on Mars where you liberals telepathically dwell?

By getalife

August 23, 2006 06:00 PM | Link to this

Of course I did Markus.

Find it failure.

Babs,

Are you saying “lies” is an illegal immigrant?

By Barbara

August 23, 2006 06:06 PM | Link to this

No idiot. I said we discussed his immigration several blogs ago, and he is legal. He told us some of the process. Boy! You really have to spell things out for you pal! You’re really not worth the trouble……

By Curious Observer

August 23, 2006 06:20 PM | Link to this

Tell my former employee, who got shot at by two white occupants of a pickup truck while he was turning from I-75 North to I-285 East while driving to a workplace on Powers Ferry Road at 8 in the morning, that racism isn’t still virulent and active. His only offense was his black skin.

No, the KKK may not still be operating overtly, but its membership candidates are still out there, and the hatred is just as intense. The cultural climate has driven them underground, but the attitudes are still there and being propagated in families. The sad part is that the current political climate has worked toward making racism respectable again. It now takes the guise of “welfare reform,” “Medicaid reform,” and other attacks on programs that once benefited poor blacks as well as poor whites. The only things missing are the open use of racial and ethnic slurs.

Wanna guess which party the racists vote for?

By Markus

August 23, 2006 06:22 PM | Link to this

Nope, getalife, you have yet to respond to *THIS post:

runforrestrun

You harped on me for a while for not initially answering you, so now I’m going to harp on you right backatcha kiddo.

You liberals need to learn to not let your jackasses overload your mouths.

By Joe T

August 24, 2006 09:29 AM | Link to this

God knows what’s in Andy’s heart, and that’s much more important than what sliped out of his mouth. He’s apologized, so why don’t we let it go.

By TNT ND65

August 25, 2006 11:19 AM | Link to this

I am always amused at the phrase “personal resposibility” when it is used to mean “the victim should have done better”. What about the Personal Responsibility to do the right thing? The big business executive is always hidden behind the corporate facade, (see Tobacco, where the user is responsible, but not the executives who deceived and plotted the addictions) but the individual that is dishonestly exploited is “responsible”. The small stores in the ghetto are there despite increased risk, so they are not “personally responsible” for substandard products at exhorbitant prices. Come on!! You aren’t all that gullible!