Thinking Right

By jbmlaw

August 8, 2006 08:03 AM | Link to this

Good morning, all. Jim’s inquiry will provoke three general responses:

(1) The conservative/libertarian answer: vouchers, coupled with the introduction of competition in the education industry (a la the college model) will produce an effective schooling system. (2) The leftist response: schooling is too important to be left to the market mechanism, and all problems can be cured by more money (3) The educrat response: there is no problem.

My bias is evident, but I nevertheless look forward to reading the leftist arguments of the big-government model as the template for the ideal schooling industry. As always, government is the problem, not the solution.

By White Jesus

August 8, 2006 08:10 AM | Link to this

Boring topic, I’ll wait until it diverges. It will definitely change.

By Mid-South Philosopher

August 8, 2006 08:15 AM | Link to this

Good morning, Jim,

You know my take on this, but, for benefit of my fellow bloggers, how about this:

Institute this plan over a five year infusion period.

This scheme would result in equity and choice. Of course, we really don’t want equity and choice, do we?

By Jim Wooten

August 8, 2006 08:24 AM | Link to this

This may be confusing today. The blog is based on a column in today’s paper that applies to Achieve Academy’s fight to stay open. But since that is not an issue likely to hold much interest outside the district, I revised the topic for the blog. But now both are posted for comment. Confusing. I’ll make certain that doesn’t happen in the future.

By Barney Fife

August 8, 2006 08:39 AM | Link to this

In Kennesaw, we require all citizens to own handguns without disciplined training. Then, we require that they hold their ground and shoot rivals.

Thus, for education, we must require that all students attend the police academy, and learn how to make citizen’s arrests, when to use attack dogs, tasers, and how to rope off a fatal encounters for the insurance companies, (and the parade).

The Atlanta cadets caught cheating prove that our educational system has completely failed, especially if we consider cops our best and brightest, our heroes, support the troops, remember 911, stay the course, well stand down when they stand up, mission accompliced.

Mission Accompliced! Why didn’t anyone see that pun? Of course Iraq was a conspiracy, everyone agrees with that. Conspiracies require accomplices (or cadets). This one had plenty.

Speaking of accomplices, I’ve always admired the Fruit of the Loom guys and their role in my sex life. When I think of all the posing and vogue-ing I’ve done in my underwear, and how that paid off for me…..Women simply go wild for briefs. Which reminds me, what is that leafy guy supposed to be? Peas? You know that would make the two peas in his pod anatomically correct (in scale).

By White Jesus

August 8, 2006 08:47 AM | Link to this

Barney Fife,

Correction: Cobb County Cadet Class Caught Cheating.

By time for the truth

August 8, 2006 09:12 AM | Link to this

BYE BYE McKINNEY … YOU DESERVE THE IGNOMINY OF THE DUSTBIN OF HISTORY

And if Allah wills it you will be out on your racebaiting ear tonite!!

All over the western world liberals have deliberately dumbed down the skool system at all levels. Mostly because of the obsessive dogma of multiculturalism. If certain ethnic minorities are struggling the simpleton liberal approach is - “we’re being racist” or unfair to them so lets make it even easier. Never do you hear a liberal say you need to work harder and make more of an effort. We will not dumb down the system anymore for you losers!! Its always prissy pandering that slavishly accomodates those who struggle, just to allow the self absorbed feel extra good about themselves.

Now look at the current academic standards in high schools, see how abysmal the “graduation stats” are WITH THE NEW rigorous LIBERAL yardstick. Dont take my word for it though. Simply compare the academic yardstick used nowadays with the yardsticks used in say the USA and UK twenty five years ago. US kids are allowed HOW MANY ATTEMPTS to pass the laughable exit exam? One attempt is still (though for how much longer?) the standard in the UK and then a retake of a subject in the next exam cycle is the only approach allowed.

Liberals have cynically abused the academic standards to the point where many first year university kiddies cannot read or write to a decent academic level and remedial classes are needed even for English. Maths is tested here at age 14 standard by 17/18 year olds and it appears half the kids in GA cant even pass that!!

Either the gene pool has quietly and decidedly (almost) universally worsened in a generation, or some combination of the teachers, teaching standards, curriculum and educational policy has become a joke.

By getalife

August 8, 2006 09:22 AM | Link to this

Um, are you saying no child left behind is a failure too?

By time for the truth

August 8, 2006 09:31 AM | Link to this

you are hilariously dishonest getatinybrian …

instead of actually addressing EVEN ONE of the points made you have yet another obsessive sneer at Bush. Last week I challenged you to simply admit that many of your posts LOOK LIKE/give the decided impression that you are simply reflexively, though I would now say obsessivly anti-Bush - which is your perfect right of course. Nor do I actually care either way what your politics are - but you’re simply too intellectually cowardly to evem admit that.

Thus far you simply parrot SQUAWK - I’m not liberal SQUAWK … I’m an American … SQUAWK.

Thus far you simply parrot SQUAWK - I’m not liberal SQUAWK … I’m an American … SQUAWK.

Thus far you simply parrot SQUAWK - I’m not liberal SQUAWK … I’m an American … SQUAWK.

Thus far you simply parrot SQUAWK - I’m not liberal SQUAWK … I’m an American … SQUAWK.

By getalife

August 8, 2006 09:53 AM | Link to this

Just pointing out the obvious lies or should I start calling you chimp on the toilet. LOL.

By Realist

August 8, 2006 09:58 AM | Link to this

NCLB is clearly working. Look at Alabama’s results posted just this morning. 1194 schools passed based on AYP compared to only 725 last year. Event schools in poorer rural counties showed huge improvements. The inner city predominately minority schools still stuggled however. These are the schools that stay in the news because of constant scandal and corruption and “mismanagement” of funds.

On that topic, it was “mismanagement” of funds that has led to the demise of Achieve Academy. A year ago thier young 25 year old principal “mismanaged” funds then she left the school and its lost accreditation with KIPP in her rear view mirror. Our tax dollars once again helping a corrupt Atlanta official get her “groove” on while the kids cant read in the 10th grade. Nice.

The obvious answer is to privatize it all and creat a competetive landscape in education. Offer up some real accountability among these so called officials who cant even seem to run a board of education meeting without a cursing and fighting free-for-all, much less educate a child.

When these parents realize that the place they are sending thier children each day is nothing but a breeding ground for felons and teenage mothers, maybe a change can take place.

By Play that funky music whiteboy

August 8, 2006 10:01 AM | Link to this

I think that the most sweeping overhaul chance was missed in the early/mid 1990’s, however we could look into it again. During the military drawdown (post cold war) in the early 90’s there were a lot of senior NCO’s (for those of you non-military folks that is Non-commissioned officers) that were going to be given early retirement or pushed out of service. Now NCO’s undergo tremendous training througout their careers on how to teach and train young recruits/soldiers/sailors. The training techniques and teaching techniques are very sound and produce great results. Now I’m not talking about the “full metal jacket” stuff - screaming drill instructors, etc. I’m talking about the Chief Petty Officer that taught damage control and firefighting to guys and girls that were pretty slow, but they got it down and knew it just as well as the nuke school students in the class. Here is what Georgia/City of Atlanta does - take these very motivated, very dedicated professionals that are retiring from the service (heck, everyone wants to live in Georgia) and get them here. Work it so that no matter what the rules, they will receive their full retirement benefits and the pay that a teacher with 10 years classroom experience would make. Discipline problems?? Forget about it. These folks have been dealing in discipline for years and years, troublemakers will be overmatched. The biggest problem in today’s schools in Georgia is how onerous it is to actually change your career to become a teacher - remove that barrier for folks who have already been doing it for years, senior military Non-commissioned officers.

By time for the truth

August 8, 2006 10:07 AM | Link to this

gutlesstinybrain is hilarious …

your daily venomous rhetoric about Bush/Cheny/the GOP is undeniably classic move.org hate speech, but you can’t/won’t admit it!!

You dont actually really debate on here, you just have your own obsessive wittle hate Bush fest - which is fine - like I said - its of no real consequence, free speech and all that. But your intellectual dishonesty is freaking funny!! And pointing it out is jolly good fun!

You are an outright LIAR when it comes to characterising your own politics. You are a far lefty … your cyber speech continuously evinces that!! NO “moderate” or “independent” ordinary American systematically spews the kind of robotic far left bollocks you do and is not of, or very close to the far left.

And yet you’re terrified of admitting it!!

HA HA HA HA

Come on … tell me where my education post is substantively or philosophically wrong - assuming you disagree.

By Amelia

August 8, 2006 10:08 AM | Link to this

By Mid-South Philosopher

August 8, 2006 08:15 AM | Link to

Allow parents to negotiate with the school of their choice. Such negotiations could include curriculum, instructional methods, schedules, dress code, discipline, etc.

How long would it be before some parents would be “negotiating” for grades. One of the problems besetting the school system today is that unqualified parents have too much say already. School is not nor should it ever be treated like just another business or business transaction.

By Play that funky music whiteboy

August 8, 2006 10:09 AM | Link to this

I neglected what kind of role models that these veterans would be for our children, seeing someone who lives and breathes honesty, integrity, honor and commitment.

By Realist

August 8, 2006 10:12 AM | Link to this

@ TFTT

But its those with getalifes extremist left views that the dems seem to be catering too these days. Clearly the likes of Hitllary and Dean have created the getalifes of the world. How scary does that make the upcoming election :)

By getalife

August 8, 2006 10:12 AM | Link to this

Sorry chimp on the toilet, I can’t read your rhetoric. It is like trying to listen or watch W, it makes me want to puke. LOL.

By Amelia

August 8, 2006 10:14 AM | Link to this

Areas such as discipline and dress code should be entirely at the discretion of the school administration. Mid South Philosopher, while lots of your points are very good, just think about the discipline that you see from todays kids. The way they behave and are allowed to dress by their PARENTS, and then tell me that you want PARENTS deciding that one.

By getalife

August 8, 2006 10:14 AM | Link to this

Realfake,

If pointing out the obvious is leftist then so be it.

By getalife

August 8, 2006 10:18 AM | Link to this

More proof that Iraq is a failure and they died for nothing

Sigh.

By Janine

August 8, 2006 10:19 AM | Link to this

I left the school system last year in disgust….some time spent teaching in private schools, most in the public schools. [By the way, public schools certainly offer teachers better salaries and benefits than private schools]. Having been immersed in the educational swamp for years and years, it is my opinion that the public schools are in a huge mess with causes so numerous that it is ludicrous to try to list them here. And solutions.????where to begin !!!!! And when would those with the power be able come to agreement on what should be done…All I hear is what amounts to pontificating from both liberals and conservatives…

By time for the truth

August 8, 2006 10:20 AM | Link to this

Realist is absolutely RIGHT!!

and the lobotomized obsessive Bush hater gutlessnobrain doesn’t even see its yet again been eviscerated logically/factually!!

it cant/wont admit its own far left politics because its a lying, dishonest pile of floundering, flaccid, spineless, yellow bellied, cringing, supine, cowardly worthless &^%$#)&&^!!!!

Whupped em again Josie!!!

By time for the truth

August 8, 2006 10:24 AM | Link to this

the sullen silence from the Bush hating eunuch chimp on its true political ideology is deafening!! …… huge smirk

By jbmlaw

August 8, 2006 10:24 AM | Link to this

My slight praise of the US college template was possibly too generous. Just read a funny article by Dr. Williams, http://www.townhall.com/columnists/WalterEWilliams/2006/08/02/college_stupidity

By modest

August 8, 2006 10:27 AM | Link to this

Just google Karl Marx and Public Education and you will see exactly what the American Left is trying to do. Dumb down the future of America so they will be dependent on “Big Brother”. Read 1984 dont let your fellow democrats tell you that “1984” reads exactly like the history of the Bush administration. It reads exactly like their idea of Utopia(negative).

By Curious Observer

August 8, 2006 10:31 AM | Link to this

I don’t have to read the entire column to know the correct conservative responses: (1) execute all teachers and fire all the administrators; (2) get government out of the schooling business and turn education over to private enterprise; (3) put God—preferably mine—back in the classroom; and (4) make sure that children are Taught Right, so that we don’t turn out any commie-pinko-liberal-leftists. As a newly converted conservative, I hope my solutions are at least modestly satisfactory to most of you on this blog, particularly TFTT, who evidently knows everything except American spelling.

By getalife

August 8, 2006 10:32 AM | Link to this

Debating with wingnut moonbats who will not admit the neocon plan has failed is intellectually dishonest and a one sided.

Therefore, I will continue to point out the obvious and not engage in this fruitless exercise of debate until they can admit to the obvious.

By Janine

August 8, 2006 10:34 AM | Link to this

RE: Amelia’s comment about parents….It is my observation that parents are, indeed , part of the problem. When I was in school and also when I first began my career, parent involvement was limited to attending performances at school and raising money for band uniforms…they would never think of attempting to dictate curriculum .And, guess what…public.schools were more successful in teaching Johnny and Jenny to read and express themselves clearly in writing and do math than they are now.. AND JIM, RE: your comments about the HOPE ..parents are the ones who pressured schools to inflate grades so that Johnny or Jenny would qualify for the HOPE..

By jbmlaw

August 8, 2006 10:40 AM | Link to this

Janine inadvertently makes the argument for vouchers at 10:19, noting that mission success by private schools does not require higher classroom compensation; the unavoidable conclusion is that there is something systemic in the government school model that precludes success.

I think Funky correctly identifies one of those intangibles that works; NCOs have real life experiences and problem-solving skills that translate well to (what Rush calls) young skulls full of mush.

One personal story, from 15 years ago. My genius-younger son came home from his daily government first-grade indoctination, and asked, “Dad, why do people want to kill the spotted owls?” I suppressed my anger at the leftist imbecile who had misled my son, and explained the misperception of intent among lumberjacks (who merely wished to feed their children) and the importance of manufacturing in the modern economy. It was only later that I appreciated the fact that my son thought to ask me “why?” I knew even then he would be ok, no matter what ever came later.

By JK

August 8, 2006 10:47 AM | Link to this

I like Play the Funky Music White boy’s suggestion at 10:01! There are lots of people who’d make excellent teachers and bring another dimension to the education system that it’s missing now. Addressing those barriers would be a great place to start!

As to “modest” at 10:27 Just google Karl Marx and Public Education and you will see exactly what the American Left is trying to do. Just what do you think you’re accomplishing when you enter a discussion by comparing “the American Left” to Karl Marx? You add nothing with your trite, baseless accusations. Do you think you’re CLEVER? Original? If that’s the best you can add to a discussion about something that MATTERS, seriously… stop embarrassing yourself and STFU.

By Realist

August 8, 2006 10:47 AM | Link to this

@ Janine

I couldnt agree more Janine. But we can all thank the idea and practice of liberalism in our society for where we are in education today. They seek to equalize each and every individual and give each parent the same rights to say, do, and act any way they chose, no matter how ridiculous, absurd and offensive to the majority thier ideas may be.

@jbmlaw

that is a great article. How to Hate Whitey 101.

By Janine

August 8, 2006 10:47 AM | Link to this

The top echelons of the public school systems [read that ELECTED school board members….as well as highly paid administrators / consultants who are slaves to whatever the latest so-called RESEARCH based programs are saying ] are populated by weak and ULTRA LIBERAL characters. Many teachers are not well grounded in the subjects they teach, even though one of the decent things about NCLB is the requirement that teachers be Highly Qualified..although there are many opportunities for getting around that. Again…such a complicated mess!!

By White Jesus

August 8, 2006 10:52 AM | Link to this

JBMLaw,

Nice article.

@Realist,

“How to Hate Whitey 101.” Is that what you REALLY got from that article?

By Time for the real truth

August 8, 2006 10:55 AM | Link to this

TFTT needs to be banned. His 5 cent words and mindless chatter have absolutely NOTHING to do with any topic I’ve read in here late.

By JK

August 8, 2006 11:00 AM | Link to this

No need to ban the jabberer. I just skip over anything he writes, knowing it will make no sense whatsoever. Spare your nerves and ingore it.

By Janine

August 8, 2006 11:00 AM | Link to this

@Realist….Ah, Equality….there’s the rub! All student’s can be respected equally,all students can have an equal chance at being first in line……but, all students do not have equal abilities not in athletics,and not in academics. The total denial of what is, to me , so obvious has brought our public school system to its knees….

By getalife

August 8, 2006 11:01 AM | Link to this

Let TFTT speak.

Let freedom of speech rule up in here.

By White Jesus

August 8, 2006 11:03 AM | Link to this

We don’t want to go banning people, because we would lose hilarious comments made by Rednecks :A’ AQ. Also, TFTT has some interesting things to say sometimes if you subtract the statements about race, liberals, and such. Pretty much..he’s Mid South minus Realist = TFTT

By jbmlaw

August 8, 2006 11:04 AM | Link to this

Curious, @ 10:31, there is hope for you, you are catching on. The government school system should not be regarded as a jobs program for leftists otherwise unqualified to produce widgets. The government school system should not “correct” the ethical or moral training the parents introduce to their children.

The government school system should spend less effort in navel-comtemplation, and should spend more effort in mathematics, chemistry, physics, economics, logic, organized writing, and perhaps some practical real-life topics like “how to fill out an income tax form,” or “prepare a resume.”

By Janine

August 8, 2006 11:14 AM | Link to this

AT some time in the not too distant past, public schools lost the concept of teaching a criteria….i.e. in 10th grade , in order to move to 11th grade, a student must be able to…. and began , {and this is edcation jargon } “teaching the child”. Sounds good, but it ended up in the county or state Consultant’s Mantra, “OFFER THE CHILD AN OPPORTUNITY TO SUCCEED”…which also sounds great…but,in reality, it meant lower the standard….give 10 points for bringing a paper back signed, don’t take off 10 points for NOT bringing it back. This led to the current mantra every child can learn, which is , *every child learns the same things at the same rate * is one of the most detrimental ideas of NCLB>.

By James

August 8, 2006 11:15 AM | Link to this

White Jesus,

Your equation should read: TFTT-Realist = Reasonable

By jbmlaw

August 8, 2006 11:16 AM | Link to this

Dear Midsouth @ 10:08, I respectfully disagree with your core argument. We must treat schools as “just another business.” It is that disconnect, between schools and the modern world, that we have to cure. Nothing understands the modern world as well as a business; the moment a business ceases to understand the modern world, the doors close forever.

By Realist

August 8, 2006 11:18 AM | Link to this

Well said jbm. Mr. Welsh could have hardly said it better….

By Amelia

August 8, 2006 11:18 AM | Link to this

When school becomes a business, it will cease to be about education. Which is what seems to always get lost in the shuffle.

By jbmlaw

August 8, 2006 11:20 AM | Link to this

Janine, @ 11:14, that is true insight. Thanks.

By modest

August 8, 2006 11:22 AM | Link to this

To JK, The conversation is about Public Education correct? I thought bringing up one of your Idealogical Masters was completely appropriate. That is quite nice of you to tell me to STFU though. Why dont you go back to text messaging your 12yr old playmates.

By jbmlaw

August 8, 2006 11:23 AM | Link to this

Ameila @ 11:18, you are exactly right, that is our goal. We wish our schools to cease being about “education” (whatever that is), and more about the specific life skills our kids need, e.g., mathematics, chemistry, physics, logic, economics, organized writing, etc.

By Amelia

August 8, 2006 11:24 AM | Link to this

So why is it that some of the less economically developed nations do a much better job educating their kids?

By Realist

August 8, 2006 11:25 AM | Link to this

Great post Janine. For me the word OPPORTUNITY usually perks up my ears because what it really means these days is FREE RIDE

By jbmlaw

August 8, 2006 11:28 AM | Link to this

Spot the logical flaw:

When a newspaper becomes a business, it ceases to be about the news.

When an antique store becomes a business, it ceases to be about antiques.

When a bank becomes a business, it ceases to be about money.

When a school becomes a business, it ceases to be about education.

By Amelia

August 8, 2006 11:29 AM | Link to this

I don’t think that you would want a nation full of the above types without the other ones too. Some of the personality types that are into the above mentioned skills are notorious for their inability to grasp everyday things and use simple, common logic. In alot of cases a brilliant mathematician doesn’t have good “walking around sense”. Certain things you definately don’t want them doing for you.

By jbmlaw

August 8, 2006 11:32 AM | Link to this

Amelia @ 11:24 just asked the best question of the day (please allow me to rephrase:)

Why does India do a better job (than the US) educating its children? Why does China do a better job (than the US) educating its children?

Answer: Not because they pay the teachers more. Not because they have elected school boards. Not even because they emphasize self-esteem and diversity. It’s the curriculum.

By time for the truth

August 8, 2006 11:32 AM | Link to this

“I can’t read your rhetoric”

@ Bush hating eunuch

what you REALLY mean is you can’t actually process awkward points that evince your intellectual dishonesty.

Having such a soft target as you always are is quite pleasing, so thank you so much for that!

By J Tom

August 8, 2006 11:34 AM | Link to this

As a conservative, I am impressed at the number of responders who think they can read my mind and provide my opinion and that of all conservatives.

There is an ‘educational underclass’ (overlapping, but NOT synonymous with economic underclass) of parents who have no education, do not value it, will not prepare, help or support their children, and won’t bother with vouchers, school choice or any other mechanism we can dream up. In short, they are not raising their children.

These kids are not hard to identify. After all, it is not the school that fails the tests, it’s the students. They are the ones who can not read after the first grade. These students should attend special remedial schools (not just classes in mainstream schools where they can be stigmatized and labeled) where the class size is limited to ten or less, and the school day is significantly lengthened. When they are up to speed, they can then transfer to a regular school if they wish. Pay the teachers of such a school extra - they will be doing the work of both teacher and parent.

If any parent objects to having their child attend, they can opt out by sending their child to private school.

There’s another group of parents I would like to send a message to: middle class parents who feel it is solely the school’s job to teach their children. I believe if a child fails any part of the CRCT the parent should LOSE THE STATE TAX EXEMPTION for that child. This really only amounts to a maximum of $180 (6% * $3000), and people with no or low incomes would pay nothing since they don’t pay taxes anyway. The money should go into programs to provide remedial help those students. Parents of special needs children should get two tax exemptions. If the child fails the CRCT, they would lose one exemption (and are no worse off than today). If parents of such children are so diligent working with their child that the child can pass the tests, they keep both exemptions - and they’ve earned it.

How’s that for a conservative viewpoint?

By JK

August 8, 2006 11:35 AM | Link to this

Modest, are you playing with your Magic 8-Ball today? You know who my “idealogical masters” are? Wow. Clever AND clairvoyant. Pardon me, oh Carnac the great. doofus

As both a parent and a citizen who will, in the future, rely on the goods and services produced by today’s youth, I think earnest discussions about our educational system are always pertinent. Getting in a time machine and going back 75 years isn’t feasible, of course. But I think we should try to retrieve the elements that were successful then (math, science, discipline)while addressing needs of the generation going forward. A thoughtful, integrated approach is more likely to yield desired results than all-or-nothing, black & white proclamations, or solution-less finger pointing. IMO.

By Amelia

August 8, 2006 11:35 AM | Link to this

There is no flaw jbmlaw. When something becomes a business it becomes about the fiscal bottom line. Everything else becomes secondary. And that is simple logic and common sense jbmlaw. But I know that it is futile to try to get that point across. I have practiced psychology for over 30 years now and have so many times seen the reality of people being nothing but another asset on a balance sheet or bottom line. Non-profit and for profit hospitals are a prime example. Just ask any medical association who consistently provides the best care.

By holdingAJC"accountable"

August 8, 2006 11:36 AM | Link to this

Tired of facade. Want real reform? One word: Discipline. The teacher gives a consequence. Every step up the chain of command supports said consequence to the hilt. The child realizes divide and conquer, appeal to mommy, or any other strategy will not work.

After some disgruntlement, the child accepts it as the natural course of things; he complies…and he learns!

It’s NOT rocket science…all it takes is backbone on the part of adults…forget embryos…all Bush needs to do is implant some stem cells from my grandma’s-or, based on his worldview, I’m guessing Jim’s grandma would do-spine into the torso of our educrats so that they can grow a spine as well…

By Realist

August 8, 2006 11:37 AM | Link to this

I like this one….

“When a school becomes a business, it ceases to be about activist judges”

BTW, my earlier reference was to Jack Welch, not Welsh. My apologies.

By rednecks Hate Skool

August 8, 2006 11:38 AM | Link to this

Any discussion of Georgia schools needs to begin with the FACT that Georgia has always been a lousy place to get a decent education, since long before there were liberals.

Face it - if it weren’t for FDR, Georgians would still be barefoot and have outhouses in their backyards.

Redneck trash loves the bumper sticker that says “My Kid Beatup Your Honor Student”. Rednecks hate education and educated people.

By White Jesus

August 8, 2006 11:40 AM | Link to this

I like that J Tom. Since my wife actually teaches and she teaches in a school area where parents are caught in that don’t care spin cycle. She has to both parent and teacher to a child whose academic goals go no further than the classroom walls.

By getalife

August 8, 2006 11:42 AM | Link to this

The GOP plan of “all children left behind” is the only plan working.

By JK

August 8, 2006 11:46 AM | Link to this

J Tom, nice points. The importance of education is indeed something that transcends the labels and matters to most of us. Assuming we know what “the other side” thinks is not productive. You’re so right about the segment of the population that doesn’t value education, and therefore doesn’t teach their children to value it either. I’m always shaking my head in disbelief when I see these families. My kids have always known I expect them to maximize their potential by learning as much as they can — not just from school, but through their own initiatives and curiosity as well. “The more you know, the more choices you have, and you can pursue the path that will make you happy!” A basic message, but too many aren’t getting it.

By White Jesus

August 8, 2006 11:47 AM | Link to this

There’s Redneck….I thought you were absent today. Getting fodder for the fire with all these “suburban” molestations, rapes, murders (daughters kill mom in Buford), student bringing Carbine 15’s to Fayette school.

By rednecks Hate Skool

August 8, 2006 11:49 AM | Link to this

I love all you rednecks that think you can beat or pray your kids into being better students. Beat your kids - they end up not just stupid, but angry and stupid. Tell them prayer answers all their problems - they end up believing in magic and fairy tales instead of reading and learning.

And let’s face it - thinking ain’t your strong suit.

By time for the truth

August 8, 2006 11:56 AM | Link to this

its not just the curriculum, its also (but not limited to) such teensy minor factors as the pedagogical approach which is still inculcated in liberal dominated teacher training gulags, and the both patronising and pragmatic assumption that certain kids can’t/won’t do so we’ll just quietly soften their learning experience and not challenge them. If the curriculum were intellectually stiffened up to where it was 30/40 years ago most kids in average schools today would be floundering. Which is why its been dumbed down!! In good part not to offend anyone in our multi culti paradise!!

I understand from my neighbours with young kids that here in the US learning to read is formally taught at school quite late - age 6 or so. I was taught to read at age 4, before I ever went to school.

Its hilarious and quite predictable to see that certain folks on here want to either ban me or just ignore what I write. Note that these are leftists who cannot handle robust/direct debate or legitimate criticism of their smug world view. I love the fact that liberals cant/wont take direct, robust criticism.

All we deal in here is words and images. Some of what I proffer is clearly designed to make sharp points with humour, perhaps even with some degree of witty abuse, some is clearly just well focused factual/logical commentary which speaks for itself.

Its gobsmacking that the left on here literally wont address the fact that they still largely dominate educational theory and practice and have done so historically and yet its “their” ideologically informed and controlled schools that are frequently failing so abysmally.

By Amelia

August 8, 2006 11:56 AM | Link to this

In years past when the U.S. di produce the best educated students in the world it was because of true professional educators. The schools best friends were the parents. Over the course of several decades educators in alot of cases are just there for the income. Second in most cases. And the parents have become the worst enemies that education faces. Want to see an easy college course of study? Choose education. Want to really improve education? And here is where I am going to somewhat agree with jbmlaw. Allow people with experience in business, the professions, the military, to become teachers. Quit insisting that teachers be versed in the cut and paste BS that permeates an education degree. According to the present standards and qualifications in place today, Colin Powell is not qualified to teach high school political science. Give me a friggin break people!

By Realist

August 8, 2006 11:56 AM | Link to this

OK White Jerome, I concede. Society is going to hell on both side of the tracks. We are ALL doomed. You happy now?

By time for the truth

August 8, 2006 11:59 AM | Link to this

certain kids can’t/won’t do well …

By rednecks Hate Skool

August 8, 2006 12:00 PM | Link to this

Actually, by the time the young redneck reaches school age, chances are s/he has all ready suffered from regular and/or irregular beatings from drunk and drug abusing violent adults, and a redneck culture that encourages defiance and illiteracy. By the time of kindergarden, the average redneck child has 2 1/2 strikes against him/her, and the chances of his/her becoming to an independent thriving adult are poor.

The schools become warehouses for dysfunctional children, the children of a dysfunctional culture.

By Dana

August 8, 2006 12:00 PM | Link to this

And now from the moderate point - J Tom, you make excellent points, glad to see them!

People, we owe it to our children to educate them in the best possible way, and that starts at home. Blame is not what we need to assign here, we need to raise our children, help raise those of others in our community (I’ll explain that) and STOP EXPECTING “Someone else” to do our job for us.

By helping, I am referring to the fact that when I was a child, my parents knew what I had done, good or bad, before I got home. Then, I grew up on varous Military Bases, and whatever I did was a direct reflection on my father. You can bet I learned early on what was acceptable and what wasn’t. I also knew I could depend on my neighbors if there was a problem, and we became more of a community, a larger family in a way. When one of us excelled, the entire group was involved. When one of us screwed up, everyone knew it.

I know this is a political blog, and I get sucked into finger pointing and ridiculous assumptions too, but I really don’t get the far flung idiocy I see in here - I cannot in any way relate to the extremist blather I see soemtimes, nor can I understand the need to finger point, or assume that “conservatives all” or “liberals all” fit any particular form. Get a grip folks, find a solution and then get up off your (our) a**e and PUT IT IN PLACE!

By Curious Observer

August 8, 2006 12:02 PM | Link to this

J Tom is right that there is an “educational underclass.” Unfortunately, it consists of about 90% of Georgia school students, not the small minority he envisions as needing “special remedial schools.” Go into the homes of this large group and you will likely find no books except the Bible and no newspapers. The parents assume that teachers will take care of all the educating and that parents have no role in it except for getting their children to school. In such a situation, trying to achieve educational excellence is hopeless.

Yes, we have a lot of extremely mediocre teachers—as a college teacher, I could usually spot the ones who had decided on education as a career by merely looking toward the bottom of my grade curve. But we also have some very good ones who are presented with an impossible task.

And the situation is little better in a lot of private schools. My experience is that the teachers are no better, but some of the students are by virtue of having motivated parents. Still, I found little difference in the college preparedness of private school graduates. A parent paying $10,000 per year in private school tuition ought to expect more than placement in college remedial courses for a son or daughter, but unfortunately the wrath is too often directed at the colleges to lower their standards, rather than at the system that produced the student with deficient skills. After twelve years of schooling, a student ought to know the difference between their, there, and they’re, but generally he/she does not.

By Taxpayer

August 8, 2006 12:02 PM | Link to this

Biggest reform? Make birth control available to students in middle school on up so that babies will stop having babies and perpetuating a permanent underclass of low-achievers and criminals.

By holdingAJC"accountable"

August 8, 2006 12:03 PM | Link to this

Where are all the conservatives; those who talk of “rule of law” and “personal responsibility”? They should be the first to realize you can’t even begin to fix public schools without fixing discipline.

Johnny misbehaves; Johnny gets a consequence. Johnny realizes “the gig is up”…Johnny sits down, stops backtalking/disrupting/assaulting and guess what? Johnny learns. Conservatives out there: do you not agree that the best way to provide “equal opportunity” is to make sure all schools have a disciplined learing environment? Given that, I have faith that the overwhelming majority of children can learn without dubious, money wasting, “reforms”. Don’t tell me you prefer the status quo? If you don’t…one word: d-i-s-c-i-p-l-i-n-e. See, that wasn’t so scary was it?

By time for the truth

August 8, 2006 12:05 PM | Link to this

@ curious pinko

“particularly TFTT, who evidently knows everything except American spelling”

That’s because I am NOT American dipstick!!

I was brought up using the OLDER more EXTENSIVE Oxford Dictionary which has “proper spelling” and everything!!

By rednecks Hate Skool

August 8, 2006 12:06 PM | Link to this

Actually, by the time the young redneck reaches school age, chances are s/he has all ready suffered from regular and/or irregular beatings from drunk and drug abusing violent adults, and a redneck culture that encourages defiance and illiteracy. By the time of kindergarden, the average redneck child has 2 1/2 strikes against him/her, and the chances of his/her becoming to an independent thriving adult are poor.

The schools become warehouses for dysfunctional children, the children of a dysfunctional culture.

By jbmlaw

August 8, 2006 12:07 PM | Link to this

Dear Amelia @11:35, you and I agree on the observations and facts, we simply disagree on the values. You see a fiscal bottom line as an opprobrium, and I see it as the most valid measuring stick. The first rule of business is, “if you take care of your business, your bottom line takes care of itself.” Your observation, that “everything else (other than the bottom line) is secondary,” is fundamentally incorrect, at least for long-term success. Education will continue to be a long-term issue, where short-term results matter to nobody.

Your time and experience in psychology is almost identical to mine in applied economics. You are surely correct about the reality of people being an asset or component of the bottom line. The important question is whether we should deny that reality, or address it.

By Scooter

August 8, 2006 12:09 PM | Link to this

Introduce competition. Competition encourages people to work to their fullest potential or loose their job to the competition. Government bureaucracies and their lack of competition foster ineptitude and complacency with the security of job protection.

Government gets its power from people who can’t function without it, so why are we letting government educate our children?

By time for the truth

August 8, 2006 12:11 PM | Link to this

“Actually, by the time the young redneck reaches school age, chances are s/he has all ready suffered from regular and/or irregular beatings from drunk and drug abusing violent adults, and a redneck culture that encourages defiance and illiteracy. By the time of kindergarden, the average redneck child has 2 1/2 strikes against him/her, and the chances of his/her becoming to an independent thriving adult are poor”

but redneckvermin …

extending what passes for your deeply impoverished logic, the exact same socio-economic problems exist in the yankee north and out west, as well as in all minority communities. indeed given the growing infestation of yankees sadly occuring now in the south - and the fact that its decidedly one way - i.e. SOUTH - traffic, the yankee contribution to all this familial mayhem you rant of here must, both morally and statistically be considerable!!

By Realist

August 8, 2006 12:15 PM | Link to this

Taxpayer, they were going to go with the birth control idea, but ran out of funding after installing the razor wire fences, metal detectors and hiring the security guards.

CO, regarding private school, though I dont disagree regarding the quality of the teachers and education being provided there, speaking for my family, it was a choice of safety and positive environment as much or more than quality of education when we chose private over public. My wife and I are both college grads, and we supplement our childs school learning at home when we think he is deficient in or not up to speed.

As far as putting a plan in place. We have to really look at these men and women we are electing and stop voting along party lines and racial lines and REALLY look at a candidates ideas and record. I just dont see that happening considering the divide that exists between us today.

By rednecks Hate Skool

August 8, 2006 12:19 PM | Link to this

Now, Time for the Toilet, my English chimp friend, if you think the schools are bad now, they were little better than zoos until the Yankees came down.

Yes, the schools in the north and west have declined too, but that is due to the viral nature of redneck culture - it’s everywhere in the US now.

By time for the truth

August 8, 2006 12:19 PM | Link to this

@ Amelia

“In years past when the U.S. di produce the best educated students in the world it was because of true professional educators”

HA HA HA HA

whan the hell did THAT ever happen??!!

You’re just having a liberal laugh love!!

Your secondary/high school system here is fully TWO years behind the English one. US degrees are worth LESS than UK degrees, go ask the INS if you dont believe me, virtually every UK degree is evaluated higher than US ones. That’s your fed govt saying this - not me!!

By Markus

August 8, 2006 12:20 PM | Link to this

@holding AJC:

“They should be the first to realize you can’t even begin to fix public schools without fixing discipline. Conservatives out there: do you not agree that the best way to provide “equal opportunity” is to make sure all schools have a disciplined learing environment?”

Well it’s a no-brainer actually. Conservatives have an EXTREME minority representation in public schools (and colleges for that matter). Doubt that, look at what political party is represented by the NEA.

So you honestly believe it was the idea of Conservatives to do away with the principal’s paddle? Do you think it was Conservatives in PTA meetings that came up with the brilliant “time out” method of disclipline? Do you think it’s Conservatives running child welfare agencies who obsessively look each kid over with a fine magnifying glass for the slightest hint of abuse or a spanking?

I believe you have your assimilation of Conservatives being the problem of disclipline bass ackwards.

[attention Susan, White Jesus, ‘Necks… your answer from yesterday is there now].

By War Eagle

August 8, 2006 12:21 PM | Link to this

The problem is you have too many diverse cultures forcing their “home land” values in the school. For instance, the mexicans are slowing down the classes when pedro and maria and juan cannot speak enough english or don’t know enough math to keep up with the rest of the class. Then you have the street gang thugs and their “don’t AXE” me that and “they was in they house” lingo. This is what happens when you either don’t have the proper teachers teaching or you have students with parents who are dumber than their kids. I’d like to know if any rapper finished college? Probably not, otherwise, they would not be a trash talking rapper. As for HOPE, we need it, kids need it and so do parents. Tuition costs go up and up every year. HOPE may be the only option for some kids to get a College Education. And who voted against how it was to be funded? THE CHRISTIANS!!! More specifically, the CHURCHES. Why? Because the Greedy Church wants all the money to spend on the preacher’s new house, car, boat, etc. NOT for the community. Are their Church scholarships? Gambling is a sin? Well so is stealing Mr. Church Preacher! Look at how many Evangelical crooks there are-Bakker, Jackson, Sharpton, etc. Did any of them give a kid a scholarship? At least if I play the Lottery, I either win or lose and have fun playing, but at least I know, there is a kid out there thanking me for spending a dollar so that he can get a scholarship and get a higher education. So for all you Churches, remember-BINGO is gambling! And Bingo is not contributing to the community scholarship fund.

By J Tom

August 8, 2006 12:22 PM | Link to this

Amelia, et al: There is a way for non-teachers to become teachers. You can test your way in if you have a degree in the subject you wish to teach. You must pass a SAT/GRE type test called the PRAXIS I; a specific subject test, the PRAXIS II; and a pedagogy test, ‘Principles of Learning and Teaching’ (PLT). My thirty-plus-year old GRE scores exempted my from having to take PRAXIS I, and I took the other two cold (no prep) on the same day and passed both of them on the first try - despite having had no college classes in over thirty years. I have a Masters and undergradute degrees in physics and astronomy and took the PRAXIS for middle school science. The next step is to get a provisional teaching job for one year. If I am deemed ‘worthy’ after that year, I would become fully certified. The catch is getting that job. Such a teacher would not meet the requirements of ‘highly qualified’ under the NCLB act, and letters would have to go home to every parent in the class informing them that the teach lacked that designation. No school wants to go through that hassle unless they absolutely have no option. Unfortunately (?) the counties around me don’t have problems that severe, but I’ve applied, just in case.

By jbmlaw

August 8, 2006 12:23 PM | Link to this

Dear TFTT, you and I normally work the same corner, but I will side with Amelia on this one. The US high school diploma 80 years ago was fully equivalent to the modern US undergraduate degree, in terms of the rigor of the academics. The US high school diploma has suffered a substantial decline in our life times.

By time for the truth

August 8, 2006 12:24 PM | Link to this

my rabidly verminous redneck enemy …

clearly this completely imagined “viral” thang you are still obsessively obsessing over has irreverisbly infected what little is actually left of your hallucinogenic fried brain by self inflicted unhinged brainwashing.

By Janine

August 8, 2006 12:26 PM | Link to this

IMPORTANT CONSIDERATIONS: One must not think that because private school students make higher scores on standardized tests and produce successful graduates that this is necessarily because they have better teachers or are a “better school”,, Private schools SELECT their students Their prospective students are tested academically and evaluated for age appropriate behavior before they are admitted,,,AND…if they don’t perform as expected, they are kicked out. Therefore, comparing any resulting scores or behaviors in public and private schools is not an appropriate measure. IN FACT when the top 10% of public school students are compared with private school students they are just about equal in scores and other criteria… and that’s the only valid comparison because the private school students are high achievers when they enter and if they do not continue as such they are not allowed to stay. One Harvard study of the NCLB program evaluated instruction in high achieving schools as well as those not meeting AYP. THe Conclusion…..*the best and most vigorous instruction was going on in the lower achieving schools..while the very high achieving schools were judged to be just maintaining the level of achievement with which the students arrived…

By MrLiberty

August 8, 2006 12:28 PM | Link to this

First, lets cut to the chase. Funding government schools in the current way is just plain theft. It is immoral, and transferring those monies into “vouchers” will make vouchers just as immoral. Additionally, with the money will come regulations, etc. and in no time the private schools will be just as crappy as government-run ones. Additionally, count on the price of private schools to go up exactly as much as the voucher amount. Don’t believe me, just look at what has happened since the Hope Scholarship.

What’s needed? Close the government schools. Tomorrow would be best for the children, but to appease the naysayers, give everyone 1 year notice. Vote to eliminate all school-associated taxes on property, businesses, etc. Pass legislation giving dollar for dollar tax credits to anyone who donates to help pay for someone else’s kids’ education. Parents can get the same credit, but only for dollars donated after paying for their kid’s first (high time they finally paid for their responsibilities). Give the same type of credits to businesses. Eliminate all zoning restrictions on school construction, and fast track permits, etc. unless they can be eliminated. Financially encourage builders to include facilities in every subdivision that could function as a school or classrooms. Eliminate all regulations governing home schooling and eliminate all mandatory attendance laws. Designate the first 6 months of this final year as Homeschooling months and ecourage all legislators to talk positively about home schooling every chance they get. Put all school facilities and assets up for sale to top bidder. Allow division/multiple ownership of schools (they are way too big now anyway). Sell for school use first, but take any reasonable offers. Frankly the land could have been better used the first time, why not the second time around.

End of the year, fire everyone. Good teachers will likely get jobs, lousy ones wont. Scholarships (remember the tax credits) would fill the gaps for parents who couldn’t afford the new options, but likely the cost of these options would be way lower than the current market - lets face it, it doesn’t cost that much to ACTUALLY educate a child.

From there on out, let the free market, parents, and the vast wealth of creativity within our society take care of education. Food is more important than education and we let the free market handle that. Why have we been so stupid as to let the same government that can’t even deliver the mail on time educate our children?

By Markus

August 8, 2006 12:31 PM | Link to this

Say it ain’t SOOOOoooooo!!! McKinney looks like she’s on her way out based upon polls. Since the AJC won’t print it, I’ll post from WXIA:

http://www.11alive.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=83044

That just sux. McKinney is just a useless circus sideshow arm-flailing big mouth Aunt Esther of Washington. Republcans need her like a lab needs a ball. Gonna miss ya sista!

By time for the truth

August 8, 2006 12:32 PM | Link to this

jbmlaw …

You are absolutely right and I am well aware that the old school house days high school ‘degrees’ were vastly superior and much more rigorous 80 plus years ago. However so were British public (actually private) schools and our grammar schools - (elite selective secondary schools) - see how the terminology is confusing for the likes of pinko observor when I speak ‘proper English”.

Latin, greek, the classics, advanced calculus and the rest of it has all sadly fallen by the way side in Old Albion.

I was merely upbraiding Amelia for her liberal presumptuousness :)

By rednecks Hate Skool

August 8, 2006 12:35 PM | Link to this

I might have to agree with some of you kkkonservative rednecks about clsoing government schools - casting pearls of wisdom before your swinish children is a waste of money and time.

How much education do you really need to greet at Walmart or flip burgers?

Heck, you can get your social worker to fill out your aid forms.

By rednecks Hate Skool

August 8, 2006 12:38 PM | Link to this

Good to see Markus today - jumping up and down under his sheets about Ms. McKinney - rather than talk about the issue of education - something he knows nothing about, obviously.

By Norman

August 8, 2006 12:40 PM | Link to this

Mr. Liberty… I have never had a problem getting my mail delivered on time. Is that a big problem where you live? You should really call your post office and talk with them about that.

By time for the truth

August 8, 2006 12:40 PM | Link to this

now now redneck vermin … just because the school district have finally enforced that long standing restraining order you forced them to seek at the local junior high school!!

By Janine

August 8, 2006 12:40 PM | Link to this

THE Problem[s]….[admittedly among many] How to successfully educate those students who are capable but not motivated to learn,who do not see the value of education, who have parents who are not educated themselves and who cannot or do not know how to nurture their toddlers and motivate their children or even make them attend school. .. AND….how to do it without jeopardizing the academic environment or those students to are at school to learn …..How to successfully educate increasing numbers of students with learning disablilities,those with no knowledge of the ENglish language ,and those with other exceptionalities. We are looking for a school system that will be ALL THINGS TO ALL PEOPLE and are creating a school system that is incapable of doing anything well..OR, even though cliche…JACK OF ALL TRADES..MASTER OF NONE !!!

By Toad

August 8, 2006 12:45 PM | Link to this

HOPE eligibility standards should be raised My girlfriend is a college professor and her students demand at least a C to keep their HOPE scholarships. She recently gave a student a D on a paper and the student appealed to the Department Head. Her argument: “I paid for this class so I deserve a better grade.”

By Amelia

August 8, 2006 12:46 PM | Link to this

TFTT, I think most people that know me here know that my views cover a broad range depending on the subject. Sometimes liberal, sometimes conservative (true conservative, not neo-con faux conservative) and most of the time somewhere in between. You, on the other hand, are consistently….well….moronic.

By Realist

August 8, 2006 12:49 PM | Link to this

McKinney Loses Bid for Re-Election

Campbell goes to prison Aug. 21

This could be a great day in Atlanta history

By J Tom

August 8, 2006 12:49 PM | Link to this

C.O. - I regret that you believe GA is a bad as you do. There are large, identifiable segments of the population that do value education. Some of these groups might surprise most people here. Obviously, there is the majority of middle and upper-class families, of which we represent. Not so obvious are the large numbers of immigrants, legal and otherwise, who value education; and there are many economically disadvantaged families who believe in education.

I think we’re talking apples and oranges. What you’ve seen as a college teacher is the shortcoming of our educational system in teaching those who DO value education.

I spent several years working at GA Tech and was privileged to give a few undergraduate lectures in EE and read their term papers. Yes, their writing was appalling (except for the foreign students), and they were seriously less educated than we were back in the day, but they were functionally literate and capable of learning. They just weren’t held to high standards in school.

Perhaps by removing those who aren’t at that level from the mainstream k-12 classroom, we can better educate those who seek higher education.

By holdingAJC"accountable"

August 8, 2006 12:50 PM | Link to this

Once again, where are all the “consevatives”? I see no one calling for giving teachers the authority (and the backup) to enforce compelling consequences. Remember “rule of law” and “personal responsibility”? Would you like to be “accountable” if your subordinates were allowed to physically assault you without consequence. Then why do you think it’s OK for teachers to be subjected to such?…your silence on discipline speaks volumes…

By rednecks Hate Skool

August 8, 2006 12:51 PM | Link to this

You know, having folks like War Eagle in a “debate” about education is like inviting the Pope to peform at a lap dancers’ convention.

By Janine

August 8, 2006 01:01 PM | Link to this

One More thing: If anyone thinks that allowing students/parents choice is going to solve the problem, think again. While it may work for students with motivation and ability trapped in a schools with multiple academic problems {see 12:40 post for examples of problems] , it will NOT solve the basic problem.[also see 12:40 postfor problems]…WHen unmotivated, undisciplined, incapable students transfer en masse to a high scoring school, the receiving schools will decline. For evidence…look at the Dekalb schools that received large numbers of transfers last year due to the NCLB rules…THeir scores fell significantly and their discipline problems icreased. The teachers at several of those schools tell me that the change in their schools [not good change ]was unbelievable. It was like they had been dropped in H—-! Undisciplined, unmanageable, unprepared students invaded their schools.* Choice is not a “quick fix”…THERE IS NO QUICK FIX. As I said earlier, speaking from inside experience, the problems are complex and do not lend themselves to simple solutions.

By Realist

August 8, 2006 01:04 PM | Link to this

@ holdingajcaccountable

That ship has sailed. Why should we raise a fuss about a matter that has long ago been put to bed. We cant go back in time and fix your broken spectacles from dodge ball, and we cant return to corporal punishment in schools.

By J Tom

August 8, 2006 01:05 PM | Link to this

By holdingAJC”accountable” - Where are all the Conservatives? Go back and read my earlier posts. You would be more effective fighting your enemy, the Conservative, if you had any semblance of understanding of him. Discipline problems arise from the problems for which we have been seeking solutions. As far as rule of law and accountablilty, most of us understand that there is a double standard, one for adults and one for children.

By MrLiberty

August 8, 2006 01:07 PM | Link to this

Janine,

THE PROBLEM is that folks like you think that the rest of society should have to suffer in order to compensate for a small element of society that refuses to take personal responsibility for itself. The other PROBLEM is that you are too ignorant of how a diversified marketplace works to understand why the central planning of the government based system will constantly fail at its tasks.

We should not be attempting to educated everyone in the same sewer. Motivated, parent-supported children should end up in a learning environment that caters to their needs, as should the worst in society. You are correct - one size does not fit all. Let the tax incentives, etc. motivate someone to educated the troublemakers. Creative and innovative techniques that do not involve drugging kids on Ritalin have proven successful at many alternative schools even within the government system. Think of how well they might do without the central planning stupidity. The brightest and most motivated should have access to an unlimited world of knowledge and should not have to put up with the rif raff dragging them dowm.

Most importantly, everyone must have the ability to take their money and walk with it. Anything less will only lead to the same problems we now face.

By Amelia

August 8, 2006 01:09 PM | Link to this

Some government controlled and funded schools in this world produce some of the most highly educated people. One of those countries would greatly surprise most of you. Maybe it is not the concept that is faulty, but the way it is being done period. And it is a good point that most privately schooled kids across the board don’t fare any better when tested than do publically schooled kids. Obviously alot of those private schools are for profit and run like a business, so for those of you who strongly advocate that approach, why is the performance not significantly better?

By MrLiberty

August 8, 2006 01:10 PM | Link to this

Real “conservatives” (which there aren’t any more of) don’t demand that socialist teachers teaching in a socialist school system be given accountability and authority. They demand that the socialist school system be closed, the land and buildings be sold, and the teachers be sent to a capitalist re-education facility.

By holdingAJC"accountable"

August 8, 2006 01:11 PM | Link to this

To Realist: If discipline has been put to bed (and it has) then it is consevatives who are letting it sleep in peace. I expect bedwetting liberals to be spineless on the issue…not conservatives.

Imagine telling Thurgood Marshall “that ‘seperate, but equal’ boat done sailed…give it a rest”.

Sorry, not letting conservatives off the hook here. If you can do “grass roots advocacy” for gay marriage and a whole host of other issues, you can take some “personal responsibility” and support canidates in local school board races.

And Mr. Wooten…still waiting for the first editorial that advocates giving teachers the discipline support they need. Surely, you can bring Tucker, Bookman, et. al. board “for the children”.

By J Tom

August 8, 2006 01:14 PM | Link to this

OK, Amelia, I’ll bite. Which one of those countries would greatly surprise me? I’ll predict it’s a country with a monolithic culture where the vast majority share and believe in common values (one of which is education).

By jbmlaw

August 8, 2006 01:14 PM | Link to this

Dear Amelia @ 12:46, what’s wrong with being a neo-con faux conservative? You wound me. :)

By JK

August 8, 2006 01:15 PM | Link to this

Mr. Liberty, Janine makes some excellent points. Why do you lump her in with “the problem?” We GET that you’re a libertarian, and that you think there should be practically no government of any kind, and that capitalism is God, and that if left alone, it would solve all problems to your satisfaction. All I can say is, GOOD LUCK WITH THAT! The rest of us are still concerned about the declining education of the American people, and would like to pursue real solutions. Thanks.

By Janine

August 8, 2006 01:15 PM | Link to this

@Mr. Liberty…Seems you could use a little lesson in Reading Comprehension….We seem to agree……with the exception that I don’t think that “choice” alone will solve the problems.

By getalife

August 8, 2006 01:19 PM | Link to this

This one is for rednecks and his arguments

By Curious Observer

August 8, 2006 01:20 PM | Link to this

J Tom,

While there are happy exceptions to my general observations, I think the problem in Georgia education starts with grade inflation. In many ways, the Hope Scholarship is the very worst thing that could have happened in our schools and colleges. Fearful of assault and other abuse, primary and secondary school teachers award outrageously unjustified grades, under pressure from administrators as well as parents. Worse, students enter the easiest programs they can locate, knowing that colleges will not diffentiate between college-prep tracks and others. And the problem moves up the line to our colleges. Johnny enters college with D knowledge but B+ grades. Do you want to be the college teacher who passes fewer than 70 percent of students enrolled in your classes, particularly when your college gets its funding on the basis of enrollment?

The outcome is inevitable: a lowering of primary, secondary, and college standards and special accommodation of unprepared students through offering college remedial courses.

If you want to see a Hope program that works, take a look at—brace yourself!—West Virginia’s. Its success and retention rate is four times’ [note the possessive, tftt]Georgia’s. And the reason is simple: only high school students who successfully pursue college preparation programs and earn B averages, with suitable scores on the ACT or the SAT, are eligible for West Virginia’s Promise scholarships.

Let’s not talk about Georgia’s Hope Scholarship program as a great success until it truly becomes a scholars’ program. We should stop fooling ourselves that somehow a high school graduate who follows a vocational track is somehow going to metamorphose into an outstanding or even an average college student. Stop the fraud, and perhaps we’ll be on track to start reforming the educational system. All high school diplomas are not the same.

By Janine

August 8, 2006 01:20 PM | Link to this

Oh…and there are a couple of “for profit” business organzations, that have taken over some individual public schools to see how they would fare….RESULTS:…no so good..their “production ” did not live up to expectations…AND thanks for the support, JK !!!

By Amelia

August 8, 2006 01:22 PM | Link to this

JTom…one would be Cuba. Cuba has some of the most educated people in the world. One of the best education systems. They just can’t use their education to earn a living because of the state controlled basket case economy.

jbmlaw…the answer to that is obvious to most.

By Janine

August 8, 2006 01:26 PM | Link to this

@Curious Observer *Curious Observer for Governor !!! * I mentioned the HOPE, [although I believe well intended,] being a real force for evil [among others, grade inflation] earlier today….A change there might be a really good start…

By Realist

August 8, 2006 01:29 PM | Link to this

holdingajcaccountable, If you think change lies in the local school board races you are indeed naive. Meaningful change has to take place on the bench and that is a difficult task considering the many undeserved lifetime appointments of activist leftist liberal pukes in the courts. Im not saying Im being spinless on the issue, I simply think we need to chose our battles carefully as you liberals have put so many challenges before our great country all at once.

By Toad

August 8, 2006 01:33 PM | Link to this

Meaningful change has to take place on the bench Huh? You do understand the role of the judiciary, don’t you? What legal cases are you referring to?

By CBF

August 8, 2006 01:36 PM | Link to this

Redneck: “You know, having folks like War Eagle in a “debate” about education is like inviting the Pope to peform at a lap dancers’ convention” - or like inviting redneck to a brutal beatdown and having him try to obscure the issue of his cowardice with tired attacks on my sexuality. I must really excite you! C’mon down, you pencil-neck geek!

By Bring on the Vouchers

August 8, 2006 01:40 PM | Link to this

Liberals will never give up control of education, they’re dumbing down of the electoriate assures future leftist voters. A privitized, competitive system where parents get to choose where their kids go to school is the only answer. Thanks to liberals, that will never happen.

By Realist

August 8, 2006 01:42 PM | Link to this

There are too many cases to list. No, not cases banning corporal punishment, but rather cases where school officials (ie. principals, teachers, coaches) have been found liable of criminal and/or civil damages in cases where corporal punishment was used. Do we really expect these school officials to practice this method of discipline if its going to land them in some liberal judges courtroom where they will be looking at jail or huge monetary damages? I think not…

By holdingAJC"accountable"

August 8, 2006 01:42 PM | Link to this

To Realist: I’m anything but liberal on the discipline issue. In fact, I’m a “realist” in that I have seen real world examples of “out of control” kids behave and learn when they get a whiff of discipline.

You won’t get knee jerk responses against vouchers here…BUT, if you’re going to be the “rule of law” and “personal responsibility” party, you must advocate discipline to be true to those ideals…

By time for the truth

August 8, 2006 01:42 PM | Link to this

Amelia … right back at ya - ya silly moo!!

Its a little ‘moronic’, not to say rather disingenuous to not actually ascribe Cuba’s problems to its oppressive communist dicatorship, its state controlled economy is clearly only a PART of the problem. Which I’m sure such a truly politically savvy genius like you knows only too well, but just forgot to state - eh love?!!

By Amelia

August 8, 2006 01:44 PM | Link to this

Another thing that we might should ask, is why do Asian and in some cases Hispanic students achieve at significantly higher levels than other groups. I think that when you combine the fact that the performance levels of private for profit schools and public schools are not significantly different and when you compare the performance of demographically different groups, it would lead one to a rather obvious conclusion. One that most of us don’t want to face.

By holdingAJC"accountable"

August 8, 2006 01:50 PM | Link to this

Realist: We don’t need corporal punishment, we need consistent punishment. Don’t let school systems off the hook so easily. Trust me, it’s not that they want to support their teachers…they don’t! Sure there is a fear of lawsuits, but it’s more than that…much more…I can’t put a finger on it, other than systemic stupidity, since everyone wins when Jimmy behaves…

But if the voucher crowd is so sure the public schools are FUBAR, then let’s restore discipline and see what happens…if it doesn’t change things then by all means, dismantle, dismantle, dismantle…but at least give your doctorine of “personal responsibility” a chance to prove itself in the classroom.

Could be educrats are just dumb (as a collective whole…not to disparage any individuals)

By fed up

August 8, 2006 01:53 PM | Link to this

How to fix schools….

1) Reinstate tracking so the kids with an high IQ/high demonstrated ability don’t have to waste 90% of their school day waiting for idiots and thugs to catch up. That alone will take care of our problems competing with Asia.

2) Trash NCLB - Test scores on the NAEP have not gone up since NCLB came on the scene. It is a waste of money. If any state test scores have gone up (doubtful that any state has seen an overall increase in their pass rates), it is because the tests have gotten easier and the teachers have figured out how to coach them. We now have a bunch of little bubble fillers who may be officially “adequate” but who don’t have enough critical thinking skills to tie their own shoelaces. NCLB will create a bunch or obedient little beaurocrats who can think very safely inside the box. I have watched my kids educations go down the tubes as a result - and I’m a Republican!

3) Tie in SAT scores to the Hope scholarship requirement and require a perfect discipline record or at least no major incidents.

By Stewart

August 8, 2006 01:54 PM | Link to this

Amelia makes a good point. Part of the problem in the US is that a great deal of our society is anti-success oriented when it comes to education. Good students are attacked for being studious, etc. On another note when comparing the Japanese and American economic models is that “classroom-size” is not an issue. Japanese classes are much larger (40+ students per class). Part of it is cultural (better behaved students), but the number one reason for smaller classrooms is that it requires more teachers (in other words a more powerful teacher’s union).

By Realist

August 8, 2006 01:55 PM | Link to this

holding, If you have read many of my posts around here you would know that I am HUGELY in favor of corporal punishment and strict discipline schools. I simply dont think its a fight that we can “back up” in time to address. I think we have to look forward to creative new ideas regarding education. Sensible and successful minorities know they cant constantly look back and focus on wrongs of the past if they want to change thier future. I am of the same thinking regarding many issues surrounding education.

By MrLiberty

August 8, 2006 01:57 PM | Link to this

Janine,

Forgive me for my misinterpretation of your comments. In virtually every sentence you mention the need to do everything and then some. It comes off sounding like the typical comments of the big-government solution to everything. You never spoke of any alternative, just that we needed to make it happen in what sounded like the current environment.

Additionally, the fact that you or anyone should consider it “the problem” already speaks the language of the central planner. It is not “our” problem, just as it is not “our” problem to get food from seed to our table every day. Individuals need to have access to education. Parents need to accept responsibility for the kids they give birth to. The free market sees problems and addresses them. They have their own motivation techniques, etc. to encourage not only purchase, but to encourage success and continued support. The disabled, poor learners, etc. are all prospective customers that someone will want to make theirs. Not everyone will be a success with this marketplace, but with a far greater number of options, the pressure will be far greater for every school to do better. Currently private schools are still too exclusive to really feel pressure from their competition.

My answer has nothing to do with choice. It has to do with personal responsibility. Parents do not have to be responsible for their kids. They can dump them on the government and make the rest of us responsible. Force some responsibility, tie it to money and give them a real choice and the problems will slowly go away. We have spoon fed parents with “free” government schooling for over 100 years. The Great Society socialism has made things even worse for the last 40 years. It will take more than a year to fix all of this, but we are either willing to make the hard choices to make things better or we are not.

These parents and their children are not inherent failures. They have been encouraged by our government leaders to be failures so that they can justify their existence in picking up after them.

By Liberal

August 8, 2006 01:57 PM | Link to this

The Atlanta Public School system spends the most per pupil than any other school district in Georgia. Evidentally, throwing more money at the problem doesn’t work.

Privitization, although a sound theory, is not guaranteed to work. Remember that Bell South is a private firm that controls telecommunications in Georgia and I wouldn’t necessarily call them efficient. Many times they’re worse than the DMV.

What it comes down to is parents being more active in their children’s education. This of course cannot be legislated. However, trying to establish better communication between parents and school officials is a worthwhile start.

By holdingAJC"accountable"

August 8, 2006 01:58 PM | Link to this

To fed up: Finally a Republican willing to admit to the need for discipline. (Point 3 on fed up’s post) NEVER would I have thought it would take so long on this blog to find a Republican who gets it…a Democrat? Maybe…but the “rule of law” party? Why are conservatives so silent on this?

By Barbara

August 8, 2006 01:58 PM | Link to this

AJC Accountable, I consider myself quite conservative. I’ll answer your question about dicipline. First, I am a big supporter of corporal punishment. However, society has moved so far left that I don’t think the decision makers would have the stones to determine what offenses warrant corporal punishment. And if they did attempt it, the parents would sue the schools. Unfortunately we now must expect that punishment to be administered at home. Oh, wait! My neighbors, and the teachers, and the other kids in class have told my kids that they can call DFACS if I administer corporal punishment….. I could go on here, but what’s the point. Sadly we won’t see corporal punishment back in the public schools. It is a shame, and part of the problem.

Another problem is that we’ve given parents a way to blame anyone but themselves when their child fails. We LOVE being victims, because then we don’t have to be accountable.

Some other posters have also made good points. The dumbing down to make the slow kids “equal” to everyone else. The non-english speaking students. The lack of competitiveness (no one’s a loser). Not using common sense to select qualified teachers.

Last year I had all 4 of my kids in 4 different public schools, ranging from elementary school to high school. The problems were different at each level (by high school the non-english speaking isn’t really a problem, for example). I’m just not sure there can ever be successful public school reform unless there’s a cleansing of society and a move back to good old fashioned morals related to behavior, accountability, kindness, loyalty, humility, courtesy, friendship, love, etc. Those values are fading within our society, and the loss of those values is having an impact in the schools as well as the workplace, neighborhoods, society in general. Last year I tried 2 times to be a part of “the village that raised the children” in my neighborhood. I informed parents when I learned that their children were misbehaving. Instead of thanking me, both times the parents became my enemies, my children were picked on at school, and the children in question attacked my character on the internet and through neighborhood gossip.

This problem goes deeper than the teachers, the rules, the curriculum, the discipline, etc. The only choice we have at this point is to let (no, MAKE) the parents choose. In so doing, it does at least put more responsibility on the parents. In addition to letting them choose, we should take away their ability to complain or affect a teacher’s career, except for extreme circumstances. When parents realize they are responsible for their child’s education, and they have no one to blame when it’s not working, maybe they will then become more active in their children’s lives. It seems to me the only option we haven’t explored in a while.

By Stewart

August 8, 2006 02:00 PM | Link to this

Fed up,

I think you make some valid points regarding NCLB. However I think the President’s intent was positive. We must have a way to hold teacher’s and school administrators responsible for their poor state of our schools. I think that you will agree with me that money is not the problem. We spend more money per pupil on edcuation than any other civilization in history.

By J Tom

August 8, 2006 02:01 PM | Link to this

CO, I agree with your analysis. To a large extent you detailed what I implied when I said the students you are seeing have not been held to sufficiently high standards.

The issue of k-12 education contains a multitude of sub-problems. You are reasonably concerned with the education of those who, worthy of not, arrive at college. Among them will be the leaders, engineers, doctors, etc. of the future, scary as that may seem. We must do a better job educating them in k-12.

I am concerned about the educational underclass. Out of necessity of survival, they risk becoming the thugs, thieves, and junkies of the future (this is not at the total exclusion of the college and skilled HS graduate group!).

Moreover, all of them are the voters of tomorrow!

I, even though a Conservative, have come to believe that the early intervention and the segregation (not racial, but perhaps sexual!) of the at risk groups offers the best chance of breaking the cycle of ignorant parents raising ignorant children. If this is done, I believe it would allow teachers to raise their standards and expectations for the other students. At the very least, we will have split the problem into two groups, each of which requires different solutions.

At the college level, has anyone proposed a national standardized test which must be passed in order to graduate? It need not be based on one’s major, but rather the basics in math, general knowledge, reading and writing. Big brother may not be in position to do it, but certainly some accrediting boards could start requiring it. Even though tests are anathema to some, they can pretty much destroy any value of grade inflation.

By Captain Freedom

August 8, 2006 02:04 PM | Link to this

Realist ‘gets it’ while holding is just another silly bedwetter.

Nothing instills order and sound learning like a good sound thrashing delivered in front of a roomful of one’s peers. The British knew this during the heydey of their empire; it was only after the demise of regular canings that the Royal Empire sputtered and fell. Fortunately for the Free Christian Worls, the US of A was there to pick up the pieces.

But alas, liberal snifflers shamed first the schools, and then many parents, into sparing the rod. And now, we reap the whirlwind. Drugs. Violence in schools (by kids, not UPON them, which is of course, salutary). Abortions. Incest and rape. Islamocryptofacist terrorism. All the product of comsymp molly-coddling and the weakening of our national sense of order and righteous corporal discipline.

Public or private, the schools will continue to be hotbeds of immorality and weakness until we return to the tried and true methods of our past. It’s just common sense right thinking.

By holdingAJC"accountable"

August 8, 2006 02:06 PM | Link to this

Barbara: I do agree that we will have to make it extremely painful for schools to continue to ignore discipline in order for it to change. Vouchers may be part of that. Having the parents of well behaved children show up en masse to counteract those who let their children get away with murder may be as well.

I really thought most readers on the Thinking Right blog would be shouting frome the rooftops for discipline, as well as vouchers…disappoints me that they don’t.

By time for the truth

August 8, 2006 02:08 PM | Link to this

I also believe in coporal punishment for liberals. In fact I am now utterly convinced conservatives should arm themselves with medium sized cattle prods and whenever they encounter a liberal, including in the shops, and especially in any govt run school, the liberal should be gently prodded with the maximum setting. If nothing else this will make the world a much better place for everyone and finally give insecure liberals their deserved, fixed place on the social ladder!!

By holdingAJC"accountable"

August 8, 2006 02:12 PM | Link to this

Captain Freedom: Please explain how advocating that teachers be given the authority to enforce consistent AND compelling consequences, and having those consequences supported to the hilt all the way up the administrative chain constitutes “bedwetting”?

By fed up

August 8, 2006 02:13 PM | Link to this

Stewart - The problem with NCLB is that you cannot fatten a pig by weighing it. All NCLB does is weigh the pig over and over and over again.

There is no longer time for projects that require critical thinking because the teacher has to drill and kill the kids with IQs of 80 while kids who really have some potential sit around bored to tears and decide (rightfully so) that they hate school.

Frankly, I really hope that Bush/Kennedy had ulterior motives in passing NCLB (and there are lots of interesting theories on this) because if they actually were stupid enough to think it was a good idea for the welfare of children and the future of public education, I am very, very worried about the future of this country.

By Captain Freedom

August 8, 2006 02:13 PM | Link to this

Time for Truth, you are so correct.

In fact, I have proposed to several manufacturers a consumer-model device called the I-Prod. It is designed to tuck neatly into one’s jacket sleeve, but emerge quickly for a clean hit on the unsuspecting liberal backside. There is to be a thumb-dial calibrator to attenuate the delivered voltage…mild for a George Will-style liberal, medium for someone like Joe Lieberman, and heavy for terrorist sympathisers like Howard Dean and Cynthia Tucker McKinney.

Alas, so far no luck in raising investment capital. It seems we live in a soft and short-sighted society.

Someday, though, our vision will be realized!!!

By rednecks Hate Skools

August 8, 2006 02:13 PM | Link to this

Do you filthy rednecks think you are smart enough to evaluate a school to determine if it is any good? You’ll be spending your vouchers on moonshine school, is my bet.

You are the people that think lottery tickets are part of a sound investment portfolio.

By Captain Freedom

August 8, 2006 02:16 PM | Link to this

Holding,

Unless you are willing to allow the teachers to mete out the ‘ultimate’ punishment, you are merely encouraging the delinquents to become stronger and more organized in their efforts to undermine the educational system. It is similar to the situation in Lebanon. To hold back on the punishment handed out only encourages the evil-doers to do evil more.

Commonsense right thinking. If only more people were prepared to take the full measure of the crisis and the necessary response.

By Realist

August 8, 2006 02:16 PM | Link to this

@ liberal *Privitization, although a sound theory, is not guaranteed to work. *

Liberal, I have to give you credit, you really are a card-carrying bonefied liberal. That statement sums up the exact reason we are stuck in the political quagmire that we see today. The current system is absolute failure, we know that for certain. But privatization, MAY not work, so lets just poo poo the idea right out of the gate.

You guys are unbeleiveable!! Its laughable.

By Toad

August 8, 2006 02:17 PM | Link to this

Oh, you conservatives, how quickly you move from being HUGE fans of corporal punishment to cattle-prodding those you don’t agree with. Guess that why you’re in favor of killing civilians unlucky enough to live in Lebanon and Iraq.

By Stewart

August 8, 2006 02:17 PM | Link to this

Fed Up,

You may be right..I honestly think that there has been an honest effort by the government to weed “critical thinking” out of the curriculum. If you listen to half what our politicians say, it is quite obvious they think American are a bunch of idiots.

By Realist

August 8, 2006 02:19 PM | Link to this

Captain Freedom, I like it! I may be able to round up a few angels for that project!!

By Barbara

August 8, 2006 02:20 PM | Link to this

Truth, does it have to be a cattle prod? I was thinking that lead implants would be a better option. We could give them a running start, you know, to keep things interesting…….

On the serious side, I do want to address the subject of guns/weapons in the public schools. Back in the days of old, when I went to public schools right here in good ole Cherokee County, Georgia, we were still a farming community, not even considered part of “metro Atlanta”. I remember many pick-up trucks parked in the high school parking lot, with shot-guns, axes, and other tools, left in them. Windows and doors weren’t even locked. Everyone in school had a pocket knife. No one ever thought about using any of that to harm another person. In my 4 years of high school, this was the case. Guess how many stabbings and/or shootings we had in school. My conservative friends know the answer. ZERO!! NONE!! Guns and other weapons in school is not the problem. I agree that I don’t want other kids in my school carrying them around my kids, but the problem is, where did the kids get those weapons? And why do they think they can get away with hurting people? And why don’t their friends, neighbors, parents, preachers, and others tell them it’s wrong to hurt people. Back to the morals. The moral decay of society, the “victim” syndrome, non-existent parents; those are the problems. Not the schools, not the weapons, not the teachers, not the curriculum……

By Stewart

August 8, 2006 02:21 PM | Link to this

Toad,

So you are comparing corporal punishment to the * intentional murder of innocent civilians? I think it’s high time someone put you and the cold-blooded killers of Hezbollah in * time out.

By Captain Freedom

August 8, 2006 02:23 PM | Link to this

Toad (and you are aptly named)

If the civilians in Lebanon and Iraq were truly innocent, they would not stay near the terrorists and put themselves and their families in danger. You see, you toady liberal, this is the essence of conservatism…take care of yourself and don’t wait for someone else to do it for you. The Lebanese, the Iraqis, and even the foolish people of New Orleans…they all have noone to blame for their trouble but themselves. If only they had tended to business instead of waiting for a handout, they might be alive today.

IT’s just like Neal Boortz said about the sad sacks who earn minimum wage. To quote:

“you are a grown adult in this country who is not suffering from some hideous physical or mental disability, and you are trying to raise children on the minimum wage, then you are a 100 percent pure unadulterated loser. And I am so sick and damned tired of all those left-wing bedwetters and sympathy pimps out there — passing — just moaning over these people who have squandered their American birthright by becoming just the dregs of socie[ty]— and then — I’m just so sick of it I could scream.”

It’s the same problem. Weaklings and crybabies waiting for a handout, then complaining when a precision bomb or hurricane takes out their neighbors, the terrorists.

When will you people ever learn?!?!?

By rednecks Hate Schools

August 8, 2006 02:23 PM | Link to this

We should invest in orphanages, and start taking kids away from you vicious idiots that like to beat your kids - your poor children inherit not only your washed-out gene pool but your cultural love for chaos and violence - no wonder the little idiots don’t stand a snowball’s chance in hell of ever amounting to anything except an inmate or a prostitute. The little roadapples don’t fall too far from the bent over beat down scrawny little apple tree.

By Captain Freedom

August 8, 2006 02:28 PM | Link to this

Barbara hits on a very potent idea!

If we were to arm everyone in the schools…not just the students, but especially the teachers, admin staff, guidance counselers and janitorial personnel…violence in school would stop overnight. The prospect of instant and massive retaliation would stop even the most crazed delinquent from starting something. It worked for years in the Middle East until Israel went soft for a while, but now that they are ratcheting back up their vaunted war machine, I think you’ll see a parade of frightened hezbulla terrorist running for the hills. Peace is at hand, as long as Israel does not soften its campaign.

By Liberal

August 8, 2006 02:29 PM | Link to this

Realist,

Privatizing schools will not result in open and free competition. Education would continually be regulated. States would still enforce rules and yardsticks and entry into the market would be limited. Public funding would also still be used heavily. A lot of times when there is only a monopoliy or oligopoly present, it results in the same old bureaucracy. Utility companies are a great example, as well as many large corporations.

By holdingAJC"accountable"

August 8, 2006 02:30 PM | Link to this

Capt. Freedom: I agree with you in spirit…and no need to take the proverbial 6 pack of whup@ss completely off the table. But you’d be surprised at how effective even a moderate consequence can be…if you enforce it 100 percent of the time, without exception, without fail.

I’ve yet to meet a child who thinks that there are “72 Pokemon cards waiting for him in heaven” if he just continually refuses to comply. I have met dozens who know they can get away with it, because teachers don’t get support (actual conversation: Teacher: Why do you continually act up? Child: Because I know the principal won’t do nothing.”)

Take that out of the equation, and you can actually save the nuclear warheads for bin Laden..

It’s NOT rocket science…just takes spine

By Toad

August 8, 2006 02:31 PM | Link to this

Funny how Americans killed by terrorists get sympathy, but not Iraqis. Don’t you know the Iraqis are being killed by fundamentalist terrorists? And it’s their fault?

By MrLiberty

August 8, 2006 02:32 PM | Link to this

Liberal,

Conservatives have given the free market a bad name. Mostly this is because they have no idea what the free market is actually about. They think that it is just “crony capitalism” or Merchantilism as it was known in Abe Lincoln’s day (yes, the Republican party was the champion of crony capitalism even back then).

Turning over a government monopoly to a private firm is just creating another monopoly. It is not privatization. Privatization is where you have a theoretically unlimited number of businesses competing to deliver the service to the public. At times there may only be a handful of businesses, but there may also be thousands of educational companies each with its own specialty. What could be more glorious that everyone having a real choice?

Parents being more involved cannot be legislated - true enough. Make them pay and suddenly they will care at least a bit more about where the money is going and what they are getting for their dollars. Frankly why should any parent really care in the current situation? What exactly can they do about it? They can’t really fight and win. They can’t leave with their money. Accusing parents for their lack of concern now is a bit disingenuous. Put them in control and then see what the ooutcome is.

By Liberal

August 8, 2006 02:32 PM | Link to this

And I forgot to mention, Realist, that public schools are not an absolute failure. Schools in North Fulton, parts of Gwinnett, and most of the upper Midwestern states are a prime example. The problem exists where you have large pockets of poverty and poor services—i.e. rural Georgia.

By Realist

August 8, 2006 02:35 PM | Link to this

Hmmm, invest in orhpanages? Im not aware of an orphanage business plan that returns any of an investors money. I think what you meant to say was we should build more orphanages with tax payer dollars. Another liberal social program to cure our ills. I knew it, redneck is a slithering low life socialist!!

By Captain Freedom

August 8, 2006 02:35 PM | Link to this

ignorant Toad…to the extent that you liberals undermine Our Glorious War to End Terror, their deaths are actually your fault.

Redneck…corporal punishment is a harmless method of behavior modification. My own Daddy found a reason to whup me sevral times a week, sometimes more, and it had no begative effect on me. Just made me a common sense conservative who sees what needs to be done.

By Liberal

August 8, 2006 02:39 PM | Link to this

Mr. Liberty,

Absolute choice is a great theory, but what about families who wouldn’t be able to afford to send their kids to school if the price of education rose to such a high point?

If you go to many middle-class and wealthier communities you will see parents taking ownership of the schools, being active in the PTA, and monitoring the actions of the school boards. You will also see parents who make sure that their kids finish their studying every night, and yes, to echo some of the sentiments on this board, even punish them if they misbehaved at school. Children whose parents are not involved in the studies, either because of time constraints due to working or because of apathy, will struggle more in their studies.

By Captain Freedom

August 8, 2006 02:39 PM | Link to this

Redneck…you stinking liberal.

Corporal punishment is a harmless method of behavior modification. My own Daddy found a reason to whup me almost every day, and it had no negative consequences. In fact, it made me stronger, and helped me to become the common sense conservative I am today.

Toad…to the extent that you enable the war on terror through your opposition to Our Glorious Leader Bush, the deaths of those civilians are your fault.

By Captain Freedom

August 8, 2006 02:40 PM | Link to this

Well, sometimes I do repeat myself.

By rednecks Hate Skools

August 8, 2006 02:41 PM | Link to this

My Georgia School Reform proposal:

Close all the public schools - stop the charade that we are educating the uneducable.

Chop off the arms of people that hit their kids. And while we are at it, sterilize them. By any means necessary.

Remove all children from redneck families, and put them either in orphanages, or state prison, where they’ll probably end up anyway. Some of the children we can “teach” to be lapdancers and prostitutes, one of Georgia’s few remaining growth industries. Our Georgia state capitol houses many fine representatives that have excellent flesh-peddling skills for the procurement and distribution end and most all have backgrounds themselves in street whoring.

By Barbara

August 8, 2006 02:41 PM | Link to this

Captain Freedom, that is certainly one way to do it! I saw an earlier blogger actually making fun of the “law” in Kennesaw requiring homeowners to own a gun…. Same principle….. guess how many home invasions there are in Kennesaw??? Any liberals care to guess??? NONE!!! The only thing that scares a criminal, or terrorist, or other would-be thug, is the thought of having that terror or crime turned back on them.

Granted I don’t think my kids are ready for pistol-packing, but I just wanted to point out that, instead of crying about guns in school, lets focus on why they are there. And what it takes to hold folks accountable so that they don’t try to use them on innocent victims.

By time for the truth

August 8, 2006 02:44 PM | Link to this

Barbara, Capt Freedom … what we should do is open up a very large fairly open (in access) concentration camp for the nastier liberal element (which is almost all of them really) and their illegal immigrant servants plus a good mix of extremely thuggish non-GOP voting gangs etc … replete with several frequently occuring nasty natural disaster opportunities, such as mudslides, flooding, regular out of control forest/brush fires and a whopping big earthquake fault line … oooops too late - its called Kalifornia!!

By Captain Freedom

August 8, 2006 02:44 PM | Link to this

Barbara, it is so refreshing to meet someone who really gets it! It is as though our minds are one.

But really, not be too harsh, you must prepare your children to bear arms at an early age. This may be our only line of defense at some time in the future. I’m sure you’ve seen Red Dawn. Nuff said.

By Toad

August 8, 2006 02:45 PM | Link to this

Calling Captain Freedom’s Daddy — Your boy’s acting up!

By Ugotta B. Kidding

August 8, 2006 02:47 PM | Link to this

Well I see Rednecks-America’s A*******wipe is in fine fashion today, high heels probably! “She” must really be a bitter person. But hey, don’t blame us because you’re a miserable, “teeny weenie”, desperately wanting that sex change. Your lovers insurance won’t cover it? I’m *so sorry” wittle “weenie” wedneck fwom Ty Ty. Are you panties too tight today honey? Are we “rednecks” bothering you sugar? You sure have a fixation with “rednecks”. Something in your childhood you want to tell us about? Were you “bullied” in school? Were you always the last one picked for baseball and stuff? And then put in right field? Hey A*******wipe, was that you??? TFTT, did you “bully” A*******wipe in school OR do you just do it now? Now TFTT and you other conservative guys, you cut that out! You know that wittle wedneck-Amewica’s Athwipe can’t handle the TRUTH!!! Your friend, UgottaB

By Realist

August 8, 2006 02:48 PM | Link to this

Yeah, and which neighborhoods in Fulton and Gwinnett is it working in? What do those areas have in common? Dont try to contend you sneaky snake yellow liberal that the education problem lies in rural georgia. If you want to talk about poverty and poor services, we need not go to rural Georgia my friend, take a look in around Atlanta.

By Liberal

August 8, 2006 02:51 PM | Link to this

Realist,

Yes we can include many areas in the city of Atlanta also…

“Sneaky snake yellow liberal”?

My your charm is quite effervescent.

By rednecks Hate Skool

August 8, 2006 02:56 PM | Link to this

Captain, maybe you can get a big stick and try to knock some sense into your fellow cons here, but good luck. I know that you represent all that is good and true and pure about American conservatism, but some of the other folks here, well, they are just stooopid whiners.

By time for the truth

August 8, 2006 02:57 PM | Link to this

Actually Kidding … I will admit to a spot of richly deserved merciless bullying of redneck vermin and the intellectually dishonest Bush hating eunuch on here … I know as a caring compassionate conservative (see how swiftly Bush suckered the scum with that one) I shouldn’t pick on the extremely bewildered but its soooooo easy and effortless I just cant resist it!!

By Curious Observer

August 8, 2006 02:58 PM | Link to this

Deplorable as it is, the absence of real discipline within a school is a symptom of a society, rather than a major cause of a lack of educational achievement. The present post-60s parents would not accept the administration of corporal punishment or any other kind of degrading treatment of their little darlings.

Attempting to stratify class placement even further isn’t a solution either. What we have gotten from the present stratification is a precious few competent graduates, with the remainder representing a sea of mediocrity and failure. Remember the arguments for creating middle schools and high schools the size of colleges? Doing so would allow offering advanced placement classes to a few star students, while supposedly offering economies of scale. What also happened was that individuals became lost in a universe of nameless people, and students lost the need to feel accountable.

A return to smaller schools would be a start at educational reform, with more focus on the individual and more emphasis on requiring parental involvement in educational activities. So too would be a return to an emphasis on enforcement of real academic grading standards, with appropriate protection for teachers who try to make an honest evaluation of a student’s achievement.

You can call the present system “education” if you want, but it’s essentially a warehousing operation in most cases. As the English novelist/poet Thomas Hardy once observed, “Some people call a spade an agricultural implement.” What we have at present is not an educational system, but rather a place to park nameless, unmotivated students in the classrooms of dispirited, automated teaching devices.

By Ugotta B. Kidding

August 8, 2006 03:00 PM | Link to this

Aw shucks Wednecks! Quoting now, “Captain, maybe you can get a big stick and try to knock some sense into your fellow cons here, but good luck”. Wednecks, did you change your mind about corporal punishment in the last 10 minutes??? I thought you good liberals were against such barbarics! I guess you just go with whatever works at the time, huh”? Your good friend, UgottaB

By Ugotta B. Kidding

August 8, 2006 03:05 PM | Link to this

TFTT: And they say that WE’RE not compassionate?

By rednecks Hate Skool

August 8, 2006 03:06 PM | Link to this

Ugotta, I should have known you were a child - that certainly explains your behavior.

Just so you know, Ugotta, I am all for trying to beat some sense into the heads of ADULT trash.

By time for the truth

August 8, 2006 03:12 PM | Link to this

“I am all for trying to beat some sense into the heads of ADULT trash”

what happened in your case then redneck vermin?

Kidding … I am extremely compassionate when it comes to unhinged “redneck” hating yankee scum … anywhere else in the south they might just (deservedly) lynch it - as it is fond of asserting … me - I would simply prefer to just experimemt on it … DAMN!! too late again!

By Ugotta B. Kidding

August 8, 2006 03:12 PM | Link to this

Wednecks: MY BEHAVIOR??? We only respond to your stupid rantings about Southern people! Now who’s childish? Your best friend, UgottaB

By rednecks Hate Skool

August 8, 2006 03:13 PM | Link to this

Barbara, let’s face it - the vast majority of rednecks lack the intelligence and emotional maturity to handle firearms safely.

By White Jesus

August 8, 2006 03:20 PM | Link to this

Deservedly lynch? I sent all those involved to hell including the observers.

By time for the truth

August 8, 2006 03:23 PM | Link to this

Back to the serious debate on schools then …

clearly the recurring issues are incompetent liberal teachers, corrosive educational liberal ideology, lack of meaningful sanctions for disruptive and violent pupils which would help keep order in the classrooom, zealous liberal administrators pushing their politically correct vile multi culti agenda which often viciously discriminates against those pupils wearing the historic stars and bars, self absorbed inept parents who spoil their brats and refuse to accept legitimate criticism of their nasty little kiddies who may well be bullies, the likely selfish refusal of pupils to wear an all orange county approved jump suit uniform - thus ensuring no social competition issues with designer clothing, the reluctance of educators to bring back the cane for deserving pupils … the list is seemingly endless.

By Janine

August 8, 2006 03:23 PM | Link to this

Some sound as if they do not realize that at least 10% of students in public school are extremely successful…as in high standardized test scores, legitimate college admissions, positive results…so public schools are successful for some. Even those schools rated as the very worst produce some successful students. Are they the students whose parents are involved?? Sometimes they are, sometimes they are not.Someone above mentioned that Asian students , in general , far exceed others in academic achievement. And, having taught quite a number of Asian students as well as others, I totally agree that they are usually outstanding students. Are their parents involved?? No, most are not/…In my experience, MOst parents of Asian students in this country are working several jobs in order to provide for their families..Many Asian students are responsible for cooking and cleaning and taking care of sisters and brothers while their parents are not at home…This had led me to believe that it is not parental involvement, but parental ATTITUDE that tips the scales….I never even saw the parents of most of my Asian students…. In one research project teachers were asked to look at all of their students.. concentrating on their overall performance in school….and guess what the family dynamics were…i.e. good home environment vs. not so good…

By getalife

August 8, 2006 03:24 PM | Link to this

Ugotta B. Kidding,

Was that you I saw at the lgf?

By Reality Sandwich

August 8, 2006 03:28 PM | Link to this

Troll Interupted, Much?

By White Jesus

August 8, 2006 03:31 PM | Link to this

Getalife,

That article was hilarious, yet disturbing. Even a devout Christian like me had to laugh….

By Janine

August 8, 2006 03:32 PM | Link to this

OOPs..hit submit..didn’t mean to…About that research with teachers …Teachers, of course ,wrote about the beautiful families with involved parents for their high achieving students ..and for the others, especially the really low students, not so nice family environments. **they were wrong over 50% of the time. It’s not as simple as one would think to determine the causes of today’s problems ..

By Barbara

August 8, 2006 03:33 PM | Link to this

Captain, are you perhaps my husband, blogging from work? He speaks of the revolution just as you do. In fact, he insists on teaching our 10 and 12 year old sons how to handle the guns in our home. I personally am very uncomfortable with it. I think they’re too young, but I will defer to his judgement on that.

Ah, my friend rednecks, I understand that you lack the emotional maturity to carry firearms, not to mention they don’t allow convicted felons to own them anyway. You’ll just have to cower behind the rednecks that you bash so hatefully if ever the time comes that your life is threatened. And if that time comes, a little advice from me to you - keep your hateful mouth shut while Bubba is defending your sorry a$$. See, you can spout off all you want, but you are the only real hater in these conversations you keep initiating….

By Ugotta B. Kidding

August 8, 2006 03:33 PM | Link to this

getalife: At the what???

By time for the truth

August 8, 2006 03:34 PM | Link to this

BILL CAMPBELL - HE’S IN THE JAIL HOUSE NOW!!

August 21st is the glorious day folks!!

And if McKinney bites the dust tonite its two for one in corrupt racebaiters getting their come uppance today.

http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/atlanta/stories/0808metcampbell.html

By Jim Wooten

August 8, 2006 03:37 PM | Link to this

Interesting observation, Janine, about the research on teachers’ opinions on home life. Is it possible to point me in that direction?

By Stewart

August 8, 2006 03:38 PM | Link to this

Janine,

I think you are right. A lot has to change in order for our schools to be successful. Higher pay for qualified teachers. Two-parent homes who have a genuine interest in their student’s education (not just as a baby sitter). Student, teacher and administrator accountability. Attitude of achievement by the students. The power of the teacher’s union must be diminished tremendously. I could go on and on.

By rednecks Hate Skool

August 8, 2006 03:39 PM | Link to this

Get, I’ve seen the link on Mr. Horsley before, thanks.

You know, if there ever was a fetus that deserved to be aborted, it was definitely Mr. Horsley - that he should be against abortion makes sense - I’m sure his mother thought often about killing him in his cradle. What a disgusting redneck he is.

By rednecks Hate Skool

August 8, 2006 03:45 PM | Link to this

Barbara, since your husband is an angry paranoid gun-toting redneck, you better darn well defer to him, if you want to live.

Better idea - send him to Iraq - let him get out some of his aggression and paranoia in a safer environment - for you.

By Janine

August 8, 2006 03:47 PM | Link to this

JIM…as a long time teacher and critic of the school system, I have done lots of research on “research” , primaily looking for a “better mousetrap”. Unfortunately, lots of results of the studies stuck…but the specifics of the origins did not….Sorry

By Liberal

August 8, 2006 03:48 PM | Link to this

Janine,

In regards to many Asian students that are successful, their parents ARE involved in their studies. They don’t necessarily have to be directly with the school per se. However, a lot of Asian parents do place high expectations on their kids, even if the parents spend a lot of time away from home themselves.

And of course, a good home environment is very necessary for a student’s well-being regarding his/her academics.

By Bill Campbell

August 8, 2006 03:50 PM | Link to this

SWING LOOOOOOOW……..SWEET CHAAAARIOT……UH COMIN FOURHT TA CARRY ME HOOOOOOME

ROFLMAO!!!

By Ugotta B. Kidding

August 8, 2006 03:52 PM | Link to this

Wednecks: We wouldn’t expect you to understand things like defending yourself! Only we conservative card-carrying “gun-toting” rednecks with our carry permits would understand something that common sensical. As Barbara said, you’ll get the FULL MEANING if WE ever have to defend your wimpy a$$!!!

By War Eagle

August 8, 2006 03:53 PM | Link to this

Any child or animal can be taught anything at any time. Its a simple matter of voltage

By Cynthia McKinney

August 8, 2006 03:54 PM | Link to this

You want fries wit dat

By White Jesus

August 8, 2006 03:57 PM | Link to this

Sang it Bill!

By Jim Wooten

August 8, 2006 03:58 PM | Link to this

Thanks, Janine. I would be interested in hearing more of your thoughts on involvement/attitude of parents. Maybe it’s along the lines Liberal suggests — the high expectations, even without in-school involvement. Why do you think teachers so misread the family situation? Surely the children whose parents had high expectations would reflect that in the classroom.

By Janine

August 8, 2006 03:58 PM | Link to this

If discussions AND good ideas could change things,we could all be Mr/Mrs/Ms FIX-IT. It’s really quite depressing. Many of my colleagues and I have been saying for years many, if not most, of the things said here today…We have often said it feels like being stuck in quicksand…ANd still we keep trying to pull ourselves out! I, having recently left teaching, am now,a passionate believer, in the following : The first 10 years you teach, you think you can save the children. The 2nd 10 years you teach, you think you can change the system. The third 10 years you teach, all you want to do is get the h- - - out of there and hope your grandchildren go to private school!

By Bill Clinton

August 8, 2006 04:00 PM | Link to this

Somebody say Bill?

By JK

August 8, 2006 04:00 PM | Link to this

Ugotta… am I to believe you’d defend me if a Katrina-level or 9/11-type disaster struck our neighborhood?

By Quotemaster

August 8, 2006 04:00 PM | Link to this

TO LIBERALS EVERYWHERE

Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Whose gonna do it? You rednecks? You, Liberal? Our soldiers have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for the Iraqis, and you curse the marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That civilian deaths, while tragic, probably saved US lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don’t want the truth because deep down in places you don’t talk about at parties, you want soldiers on that wall, you need soldiers on that wall. They use words like honor, code, loyalty. They use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don’t give a damn what you think you are entitled to!!

By time for the truth

August 8, 2006 04:01 PM | Link to this

WOW … a genuine redneck vermin hissy fit!!

Who the hell is this Horsley fellow?

By James

August 8, 2006 04:01 PM | Link to this

Janine for Secretary of Education, Jim

By Ugotta B. Kidding

August 8, 2006 04:03 PM | Link to this

RK: Anything for my good liberal friends. That’s just the kind of guy I am!!

By Janine

August 8, 2006 04:08 PM | Link to this

JIM…one would think so…evidenced by the teachers’ scenarios…but it turned out that many of the high acheivers had emotionally absent parents, all kinds of things going on in their lives that one wouldn’t expect..alcoholism, drug addicts, jailed parents……and many of the students who were not performing well had seemingly [emphasize seemingly, for one never really knows] model home lives… THis was brought home to me a few years ago when one of my best students was living in what you and I would regard as a hellish situation. I found out that she went in a closet with a flashlight to read to escape the violence, even including gunshots, in her home. Her studies were her escape.

By Liberal

August 8, 2006 04:08 PM | Link to this

@ Quotemaster,

I run my unit how I run my unit. You want to bait me, Quotemaster, roll the dice and take your chances. I eat breakfast 300 yards from 4000 right-wing conservatives who are trained to talk trash, so don’t think for one second that you can come down here, flash a post, and make me nervous.

By Bill Clinton

August 8, 2006 04:09 PM | Link to this

time for the truth, this is the guy that admitted having sex with Rednecks-Al Qaeda’s sister back on the farm up North.

By Jim Wooten

August 8, 2006 04:10 PM | Link to this

Janine’s in the running for Secty. of Education when our band of right-wingers comes to power. That is if her first 10 years is saving children, the second 10 is teaching, the third 10 is wanting to get the heck out…and the fourth 10 is coming back to reinvent the system so that it works for parents and children for the next hundred years.

By Barbara

August 8, 2006 04:10 PM | Link to this

Okay, TFTT, let me get this in without calling me a “nutter”.

rednecks, I defer to my husband because I believe he is the head of my household, and because I believe that he is probably better qualified to make decisions on raising my sons. (I get to make the decisions on the 2 girls.) I defer to him because my God, the one true God, the God of Abraham, of the Christians and the Jews that you hate so much, set up the household that way. I believe that honoring that system provides me and my family a happier life. I do not fear him, or any other conservative Christian man with a gun. I believe, nay, EXPECT them to protect me and my children. But don’t let that fool you. I am more than capable of protecting myself.

And this I am sure of more than anything else in life - he would die for me, and would never hurt me. But……if he did, I’d wait until he went to sleep, and I’d put one right in his head. A milk jug makes a great silencer……..

I think the fact that you don’t understand such a lifestyle is why you’re such a sad little man…….

By Toad

August 8, 2006 04:10 PM | Link to this

That civilian deaths, while tragic, probably saved US lives. Sorry, I don’t hold American lives as more worthy than Iraqis.

By time for the truth

August 8, 2006 04:11 PM | Link to this

Janine … I was a student teacher in the UK plus I taught English in metro Barcelona for a while in the 1990’s. What I saw in the staffrooms of several English state schools was shocking. The petty bickering and b_itchiness by both men and women was extraordinary. The ‘office politics’ was often almost international chess master standard. Some were good teachers, some were deadwood, like everywhere. This is somewhat like being say an amateur manager of the Braves, you can see all the faults of the team, you know essentially what’s wrong but the powers that be will NOT do the blindingly obvious. The nature of the often very self serving, rather amorphous school system overwhelms or discourages most of those who professionally engage with it, like you say, eventually enthusiasm morphs into cynicism.

Thank you for your service anyway!!

By Janine

August 8, 2006 04:13 PM | Link to this

JIM…I get that most people think that high expectations result in acceptable performance …It just doesn’t turn out to be true much of the time…Surely you know several parents who have high expectations of their children but do not get acceptable performance academically…There are just other variables that we don’t always consider…

By Liberal

August 8, 2006 04:14 PM | Link to this

TFTT,

In which area of Barcelona did you teach?

By Realist

August 8, 2006 04:16 PM | Link to this

*Sorry, I don’t hold American lives as more worthy than Iraqis. *

Thats because you are a liberal toad and a part of what is wrong with this country. Now hop on along before you get stepped on.

By Barbara

August 8, 2006 04:19 PM | Link to this

….. go Realist! It’s your birthday….. go Realist!……..

By Stewart

August 8, 2006 04:23 PM | Link to this

I think Toad would be an excellent representative of the US. I’d like to nominate him to negotiate on our behlalf with Hamas, Hezbollah, Al-Quaida and all other militant islamists.

By Toad

August 8, 2006 04:25 PM | Link to this

Why would a human life in one country be worth more than another? Anyone of us could have been born in Iraq or any other country in the world. Just because we had the good fortune to be born in this country that makes ours lives more valuable? (I’m not taking into account immigration.)

By time for the truth

August 8, 2006 04:26 PM | Link to this

Liberal … it was a town in the northern foothills called Manresa. I was just about the only Brit there, one other chap I recall married to a local and an ageing somewhat aloof Kalifornian hippy type still hiding from his Nam draft board - he was a bit odd!!

I remember I went to this late night dinner party on the sixth floor of a new block of flats with these Catalan girls- one had a cat. I said to her - ah - a cat - they are good to keep the mice down … she went beserk … I dont have any mice … etc for five minutes … it was just a harmless ice breaking bloody joke!! a nice memory still!

By getalife

August 8, 2006 04:27 PM | Link to this

Sorry, I don’t hold American lives as more worthy than Iraqis.

All wasted for nothing.

By Janine

August 8, 2006 04:27 PM | Link to this

Over on Patti Ghezzi’s”Get Schooled” blog they are suggesting putting spies in schools to see what’s really going on with discipline issues…Interesting…*Did I tell you * that an AJC reporter left you to become a teacher?She was assigned to my middle school? She left quickly… in order to keep her sanity ..and commenting that no one could imagine what it’s like ‘trying’ to teach in a middle school.She didn’t like it much

By Toad

August 8, 2006 04:28 PM | Link to this

And I’m talking about civilians, not terrorists.

By Jim Wooten

August 8, 2006 04:28 PM | Link to this

Sorry, Stewart, we’re just auditioning for Secty. of Education today. And, incidentally, there are some great candidates on the blog today. Quite a satisfying discussion most all day long.

By Stewart

August 8, 2006 04:31 PM | Link to this

Toad: There is a terrible accident and your kid and his/her friend are killed. Which is more painful (valuable) to you? Your kid are the friend? An American life should be more valuable to you than someone from another country. It’s called patriotism.

By Liberal

August 8, 2006 04:32 PM | Link to this

TFTT,

Ah Manresa. The last stop on the Cercanias. I lived in the Guinardo neighborhood near Hospital Sant Pau.

I had a language exchange partner who was telling me in English about a guy at his job who operated a large piece of machinery, but instead he said, “the guy at my job with the big tool.” I felt bad for the guy because I couldn’t stop laughing.

Great place.

By Ugotta B. Kidding

August 8, 2006 04:33 PM | Link to this

Stewart buddy: You’ll be here for QUITE AWHILE explaining that to a liberal!

By Stewart

August 8, 2006 04:33 PM | Link to this

Jim,

With what they are teaching in today’s schools. Maybe Toad would be an excellent candidate for Secretary of Education as well.

By Toad

August 8, 2006 04:35 PM | Link to this

But I know my kid, so of course that would be more painful than her friend. If I don’t know someone it’s a tragedy regardless of their country of origin because I think all human beings are valuable.

By Realist

August 8, 2006 04:36 PM | Link to this

Toad, Its really quite simple. See Im a human being, not God. Maybe if I were God, all people would be created equal. But Im not, Im just a man. So with that said, my life, and that of my wife and children is more important than yours, Iraqi’s, or frankly anyone else on the planet to be honest with you. So if 10,000 Iraqi’s have to die (or Lebanese or Iranians or you get the drift) so that I can continue to live my life with my family and get to know the pleasure of watching them grow up and be happy and healthy without the fear of terrorism or a depression or disease, then SO BE IT. War is hell, but Id rather somebody else experience that hell than my children or wife. Do you get that? I doubt it.

By Barbara

August 8, 2006 04:37 PM | Link to this

Toad, although I don’t often agree with you, I do kinda like you. You often interject questions with respect and consideration. However, you’ve got to see that those “civilians” over there are born and raised with hatred in their hearts. They stand in the streets and chant for the terrorists. They celebrate when Americans are killed. You might find a few compassionate ones over there, but for the most part, they worship the terrorists, and therefore, in my opinion, are terrorists themselves. Even the civilians. I don’t agree with just wiping them out altogether, but if they’re going to let the terrorists hide bombs in their basement, or if they’re going to be out in the streets chanting for American death and death to peaceful societies like Israel, then I certainly do not place the same value on them as I do an American. Likewise, if there’s an American threatening this country, or our lifestyles, I don’t value that person’s life much either. Perfect examples: Timothy McVey and Jeffrey Dommer. I would have liked to pull the lever, or push the needle, or pull the trigger on either or both of those guys……

By Realist

August 8, 2006 04:47 PM | Link to this

Barbara, I love your style. I have to be going but Im leaving it in your capable hands to keep these libs straight. Keep up the good fight!! You are a great American!!

And like Bill Campbells freedom, IM GONE !!

By Reality Sandwich

August 8, 2006 04:58 PM | Link to this

Troll Interrupted, part duh.

The only thing realist’s leaves in your hands, barb, is what he wont let alone with his own hands, that said, I think he “handled himself” well today.

Dont you?

By holdingAJC"accountable"

August 8, 2006 04:59 PM | Link to this

Jim,

I’ll support your choice for Sec. of Ed. as long as they are willing to restore the discipline. Simply put, you cannot negotiate with terrorists, be they eight years old or eighty. Surely your band can get behind that…

The question is, will you support the transplanting of grandma’s stem cells into the backbones of educrats so they can get with discipline as well?

By Jim Wooten

August 8, 2006 05:03 PM | Link to this

Agreed hAJCa. Backbone and discipline are a must. If the kids aren’t behaving, they’re going home. If the teacher’s not making ‘em, he/she is too.

By Toad

August 8, 2006 05:04 PM | Link to this

My first act as Secretary of Education: Require parents to read to children from conception. Teach them to read as early as possible. Keep ‘em in first grade until they have proper reading skills. Otherwise they are lost forever.

Barbara, I kinda like you too. I appreciate all the conservatives who are willing to discuss issues without name calling and personal attacks.

I believe there are citizens in every country who love their families, are dedicated to their careers and hate violence.

Now I’m off to do my patriotic duty and vote for some liberals.

By Barbara

August 8, 2006 05:14 PM | Link to this

Reality Sandwich, I like men who are good at handling themselves. A good man, and versitile too. Every woman’s dream……

Toad, how much would it take to keep you home this evening? You know us rich republicans can take up a collection to keep you away from the polls??? After all, the vote-buying works for the libs, so I thought I’d give it a try.

By Stewart

August 8, 2006 05:20 PM | Link to this

Toad, good first step as Secretary of Education..but don’t go to the polls! There is still time.

By Barbara

August 8, 2006 05:22 PM | Link to this

Oh, and Toad, I’ll bet paychecks with you that there are a lot more peace-loving American citizens than there are Iraqi, or Iranian, or Lebanese…….. We Americans are raised on different standards and values. I believe that to be the truth.

By holdingAJC"accountable"

August 8, 2006 05:23 PM | Link to this

Amen Jim! Give the teachers the authority to discipline…then let the cream of the teaching profession rise to the top! Hate to “break ranks” but some out there are not the brightest bulbs in the light factory. (I have a slew of memos from administrators with grammatical errors I wouldn’t tolerate from a sixth grader.) Yet I have to say my personal experience shows the discipline problem has far outweighed the competency problem.

Still, increased support for discipline for increased accountability? I’ll take that trade any day.

PS About grandma’s stem cells…my grandma could get more done as far as “positive behavior expectations” with a 49cent flip-flop from KMart in her hand, than a whole group of educrats with a “character building” curriculum…

By Barbara

August 8, 2006 05:34 PM | Link to this

Jim and htAJCa, the problem is that society will not return discipline to the classrooms; not in any form. Someone gave a good example of the college grading “expectation” that, since they paid tuition, they deserved a better grade. Let’s take an example in the elementary or high school, the first time Little Suzi or Little Jimmy gets sent home on disciplinary action (‘cause Lord knows, you’ll never get corporal punishment back into schools, so sending the kids home is probably going to be the next big impact a school has). Little Suzi or Little Jimmy’s mom is not going to take the word of a teacher or principal when it comes to a disciplinary action. They will fight that teacher until the cows come home. And probably have the poor teacher fired. It just won’t work. It’s a great idea, and it’s the way it should be, but it’s not going to happen.

And you better put up the flip-flop too, because your kids are being told by the teachers, friends, neighbors, and even some of the adults, that if your mommy or daddy hits you, you can call DFACS on them. And you’ll be miserable if that organization starts poking their head under your tent.

Don’t get me wrong. Flip-flops fly freely at my house all the time. Along with the occasional bar of soap inserted into the mouth, and other forms of punishment. But in this society you’ve got to keep that on the down-low. And when your kids are the only well behaved ones in the bunch, your discipline skills won’t even be appreciated.

By getalife

August 8, 2006 05:38 PM | Link to this

Who voted today?

By Barbara

August 8, 2006 05:43 PM | Link to this

Not me. In my district there weren’t any run-offs for Republicans that I’m aware of, and I voted Repub, so I couldn’t.

By rednecks Hate Skool

August 8, 2006 05:48 PM | Link to this

Barbara, you really ought to learn something about Jesus Christ - for instance, did you know He never blew anybody’s head off? That He never raised a hand to anyone even when they were nailing His hands to a cross? Even when he got mad at hypocrites (such as yourself), all he did was knock over some tables. Heck, Jesus never even took a swing at Satan, all He ever did was turn His back on him.

So please stop calling yourself a Christian. Your violence-prone nature profanes His name.

The “religion” you practice has more in common with Islam and Judaism, religions where spilling others’ blood is allowed, under certain conditions. Actually, having so many guns in your home, your “religion” is much like Talibani Islam, or some pagan murder cult. A lot of you fundie KKKhristians are waiting on a whole lot of death and destruction - you can’t wait for all the killing and blood at the End of Days. Sounds more like a Terminator movie than a real religion, doesn’t it?

Given the deference you say you have for your husband, honor him tonight by buying burkas for yourself and your daughters. You under a burka would be easier on everyone’s eyes…

Barbara, true Christians put their faith in Christ, not in their bullets and guns. Sometimes it is a tall order, but no one ever said the good life was easy.

By Markus

August 8, 2006 05:59 PM | Link to this

My district had no runoffs today. Otherwise, I’d have LOVED to go down to the 4th and used NO ID to vote for McKinney!! After all, a dog always needs a good tree to p!ss on.

Oh yeah, and where are those limpnoodled liberals that challenged me to find crime stats on child molesters/rapists and race and metro location? Remember liberal ladies, don’t start an argument you can’t finish.

http://www.ajc.com/opinion/content/shared-blogs/ajc/thinkingright/entries/2006/08/07/endthecar_tax.html#comment-598143

By rednecks Hate Skool

August 8, 2006 06:00 PM | Link to this

Barbara, it’s pretty obvious you haven’t travelled much outside of Cherokee County, and you have no understanding of the redneck culture you claim to be so proud of - if you did, you’d realize how much hate, fear, klannishness, xenophobia, and an itch for a fight - any fight - are part of your culture.

None of the cultures you’ve disparaged are as violent and arrogant (over nothing) as yours.

By Markus

August 8, 2006 06:03 PM | Link to this

Anyone have a McKinney BULLHORN sighting today? Anyone see her “IT’S THE J-E-W-S!!!” father today? MAN I’m gonna miss that!

By Barbara

August 9, 2006 08:13 AM | Link to this

rednecks, you are indeed a sad little man. Your arguement has no credibility because you fail to point out Jesus’ biggest teaching point. That was LOVE. And that would include love for REDNECKS. You’re an idiot. But it sounds like you’re doing a little reading, so keep it up. You might learn to become a decent human being. We can always hope for that.

If you really understood Christ, you would know that He forgives us of our sins, because He knows we are human, and therefore not perfect. The only sin that you can’t recover from is turning your back on Him. He says (and you should look this up for your own understanding) “if you deny me on this earth, then I will deny you in front of the Father”. I think your favorite little phrase, “KKKhristians”, qualifies as a denial, so you better watch out buddy. Or we’ll see you at the big BBQ.

By Amelia

August 9, 2006 09:58 AM | Link to this

By Barbara

August 8, 2006 01:58 PM | Link to this

Another problem is that we’ve given parents a way to blame anyone but themselves when their child fails. We LOVE being victims, because then we don’t have to be accountable.

Barbara…thank you thank you thank you!! You just said it all. Parents have done more to facilitate the decline in education in this country than any other facter. And it crosses political boundaries too. Liberal, conservative, and in-between. All bear culpability. But I will tell you this from my experiences as a psychologist. I get more kids from families that classify themselves as “conservatives” in my office than any other category. And the primary reason that these kids are so depressed, underachieving, and in general all screwed up, is the value system of the parents. The parents think that making every dollar they can get their hands on is the answer to lifes problems. The kids have every material object and every so called advantage that money can buy and STILL, they are emotional and mental basket cases. The parents think that the schools should substitute as parents and do it all while they go about the biggest thing in THEIR lives, which is the accumulation of material objects. And then they can’t understand for the life of them why their kid is so screwed up and all the king’s horses, and all the king’s men can’t put little Johnny together again. And guess what folks. They are mystified because in their words, but he/she has everything. Yeah buddy. Everything but a parent with a clue. Look no farther than parents that want the school to do what they should be doing at home and you have the answer to the whole thing.

By Barbara

August 9, 2006 12:08 PM | Link to this

Amelia, something must be wrong with me! A few days ago I was agreeing with the liberal Susan and now I agree with you,…. well to a certain extent. One bone I will pick with you is this: just because you see mostly kids of conservatives doesn’t mean that they are most of the problem. Perhaps the liberals won’t admit there’s anything wrong with their kids, and so they don’t seek help. Hmmmm??? Think about that possibility. Give us conservatives some credit; we’re willing to admit when there’s a problem, and we’re willing to take steps to try to correct it.

Yes, there is the spoiled brat element from the conservative households, but those are not, by far, the only problem kids. You also have the kids from broken homes(conservatives don’t own the market on that problem), and you’ve got the ghetto wannabes(again, not conservatives only), and you’ve got the non-english speaking parents who refuse to teach their kids the language of this country (try to find even one conservative in that category!).

Parents are a large part of the problem. Society is another part of the problem. But it is not a conservative party problem. We all share the blame.

Still, we’re right there - eye to eye- on the fact that it’s largely the parents….. And I have 4 kids; I know how hard it is to be a good parent.

By Amelia

August 9, 2006 12:25 PM | Link to this

Barbara, many parents really don’t know what constitutes being a parent. And I really do think that parents are the biggest difference in the schools today and years past. The school became nothing more than a day care center to most and some of these parents really do blame the school for their failures because in their minds, creating wealth makes them a good parent. This type of value needs to change.

By Barbara

August 9, 2006 12:50 PM | Link to this

Yeah, but here’s where you and I are probably going to part ways. I think that the liberals taking away the teachers’ ability to properly discipline the children is part of the problem too. If we are going to dump our kids off at the public daycare, we should at least allow that facility to whoop the snot out of little Johnny the first time he acts up.

Now parents really have it easy, because they can dump the kid off, and when the kid misbehaves because there are no consequences, then the parents can blame the poor teachers. ‘Cause after all, my precious little baby wouldn’t be a problem, so the problem must be the teacher, right???

What a mess. As long as we keep letting each other get away with that, it’s never going to be fixed. Even the little tyraids in the grocery store - we see some brat screaming ‘cause mommy won’t by him that expensive toy, and we just smile. Awww, isn’t he cute???!!? Mostly because we’re uncomfortable, but mommy doesn’t pinch the little brat’s head off and we’ve just given her an out. What we should say is “Hmmm? Looks like somebody needs a spankin!”. That’s what they said to my mom when I was growing up. The problem is really, really, really really deep. It goes much further than just the parents. The whole village has gone insane…….

By Amelia

August 10, 2006 09:51 AM | Link to this

Barbara, it is just not true that “liberals” are the lone culprits in taking discipline out of the schools. It is parents in general ALL parents. Especially the ones that think a little money gives them the right to bully a teacher or principle when they do discipline a kid. Suspend any kid and see what happens. Mommy and Daddy are down at the school threatening legal action, etc. Why? Because then the little darling doesn’t have daycare (the school) and mommy or daddy might have to make some arrangements that inconvenience them a little. It is ALL parents. Not just liberal, not just conservatives. ALL!!!

By Amelia

August 10, 2006 09:58 AM | Link to this

By the way Barbara, just who’s job is it to instill discipline in kids. Certainly not the school’s. If parents were doing their job maybe there wouldn’t be so many discipline issues to begin with. Attack the root cause of the problem. And parents are definately the root cause. Discipline and responsibility start at home. Parents are way out of line sending a renegade to school and expecting the school to fix the problem.

By Amelia

August 10, 2006 10:10 AM | Link to this

Lord forgive me, but I am now probably going to sound like one of the lunatic fringe when I suggest that the parents of chronic discipline problems be tied up and “whupped”. Discipline the parents for not doing their job as parents and bet alot of those issues start going away. My husband, a retired Army colonel has called many military parents on the carpet after getting a call from the post school that little Biff or little Buffy was disrupting the school. Fix the kid, or you get fixed. Worked everytime too. Parent gets sanctioned if problem doesn’t stop. Guess what. The problems always stopped.

By Barbara

August 10, 2006 11:16 AM | Link to this

Okay, maybe I was taking a little poke at you liberals. I’m going to say you might be right. (Since we’re the only ones still here. If you tell anyone I agreed with you I’m going to deny it :-) )

How do we fight this problem? Who is going to give the power back to the schools to send the kid home? Who is going to support the teachers when they try to hold little Johnny, and his parents, accountable? I’m being serious……