Home > Thinking Right > Archives > 2006 > August > 08 > Entry
DEL.ICIO.US‘Here, government, take Jimmy’
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Achieve Academy’s fight for survival, and indeed the plight of any single charter school in any system, rarely arouses passion outside the district. But the larger issue of school reform does.
It’s not likely to be a major topic of debate this election year. Most politicians, when running for office, choose to limit their conversations with the public on reform to such inanities as which candidate is likely to be the more vigilent in protecting the HOPE stipend from assault by those non-existent evil doers who would undermine its benefits. HOPE, incidentally, has become Georgia’s Social Security — a sacred cow that no responsible politician dares touch, except to raise benefits, until it reaches the brink of financial crisis. Frankly, for my money, HOPE eligibility standards should be raised. But that’s the kind of suggestion that politicians are promising to resist.
School reform matters especially in Atlanta. The city may or may not be in the midst of a return-to-the-city movement. Certainly, condos and apartments are going up everywhere. But until the problem of a laggardly school system is cured, people with children won’t return, unless they have alternatives. Atlanta’s revival will be limited to the childless and to retiring baby boomers. I think that means, of course, some program of vouchers or tax credits that encourages new schools to be created by the private sector or by groups of educators starting their own.
It’s always necessary to try to improve the existing school system for parents who will always prefer to let government do it, who will choose to be uninvolved and are perfectly happy to hand Jimmy over at age 5 and check him back out at age 18, hoping he’s educated enough to get out of the house. The question for conservatives, though, is whether that’s enough. Can the model designed for a farm economy be fixed so that it serves most everybody? And if you’re open to reform, what’s the boldest reform you’d support?
Permalink | Comments (258) | Post your comment | Categories: Column
Comments
By jbmlaw
August 8, 2006 08:03 AM | Link to this
Good morning, all. Jim’s inquiry will provoke three general responses:
(1) The conservative/libertarian answer: vouchers, coupled with the introduction of competition in the education industry (a la the college model) will produce an effective schooling system. (2) The leftist response: schooling is too important to be left to the market mechanism, and all problems can be cured by more money (3) The educrat response: there is no problem.
My bias is evident, but I nevertheless look forward to reading the leftist arguments of the big-government model as the template for the ideal schooling industry. As always, government is the problem, not the solution.
By White Jesus
August 8, 2006 08:10 AM | Link to this
Boring topic, I’ll wait until it diverges. It will definitely change.
By Mid-South Philosopher
August 8, 2006 08:15 AM | Link to this
Good morning, Jim,
You know my take on this, but, for benefit of my fellow bloggers, how about this:
Institute this plan over a five year infusion period.
This scheme would result in equity and choice. Of course, we really don’t want equity and choice, do we?
By Jim Wooten
August 8, 2006 08:24 AM | Link to this
This may be confusing today. The blog is based on a column in today’s paper that applies to Achieve Academy’s fight to stay open. But since that is not an issue likely to hold much interest outside the district, I revised the topic for the blog. But now both are posted for comment. Confusing. I’ll make certain that doesn’t happen in the future.
By Barney Fife
August 8, 2006 08:39 AM | Link to this
In Kennesaw, we require all citizens to own handguns without disciplined training. Then, we require that they hold their ground and shoot rivals.
Thus, for education, we must require that all students attend the police academy, and learn how to make citizen’s arrests, when to use attack dogs, tasers, and how to rope off a fatal encounters for the insurance companies, (and the parade).
The Atlanta cadets caught cheating prove that our educational system has completely failed, especially if we consider cops our best and brightest, our heroes, support the troops, remember 911, stay the course, well stand down when they stand up, mission accompliced.
Mission Accompliced! Why didn’t anyone see that pun? Of course Iraq was a conspiracy, everyone agrees with that. Conspiracies require accomplices (or cadets). This one had plenty.
Speaking of accomplices, I’ve always admired the Fruit of the Loom guys and their role in my sex life. When I think of all the posing and vogue-ing I’ve done in my underwear, and how that paid off for me…..Women simply go wild for briefs. Which reminds me, what is that leafy guy supposed to be? Peas? You know that would make the two peas in his pod anatomically correct (in scale).
By White Jesus
August 8, 2006 08:47 AM | Link to this
Barney Fife,
Correction: Cobb County Cadet Class Caught Cheating.
By time for the truth
August 8, 2006 09:12 AM | Link to this
BYE BYE McKINNEY … YOU DESERVE THE IGNOMINY OF THE DUSTBIN OF HISTORY
And if Allah wills it you will be out on your racebaiting ear tonite!!
All over the western world liberals have deliberately dumbed down the skool system at all levels. Mostly because of the obsessive dogma of multiculturalism. If certain ethnic minorities are struggling the simpleton liberal approach is - “we’re being racist” or unfair to them so lets make it even easier. Never do you hear a liberal say you need to work harder and make more of an effort. We will not dumb down the system anymore for you losers!! Its always prissy pandering that slavishly accomodates those who struggle, just to allow the self absorbed feel extra good about themselves.
Now look at the current academic standards in high schools, see how abysmal the “graduation stats” are WITH THE NEW rigorous LIBERAL yardstick. Dont take my word for it though. Simply compare the academic yardstick used nowadays with the yardsticks used in say the USA and UK twenty five years ago. US kids are allowed HOW MANY ATTEMPTS to pass the laughable exit exam? One attempt is still (though for how much longer?) the standard in the UK and then a retake of a subject in the next exam cycle is the only approach allowed.
Liberals have cynically abused the academic standards to the point where many first year university kiddies cannot read or write to a decent academic level and remedial classes are needed even for English. Maths is tested here at age 14 standard by 17/18 year olds and it appears half the kids in GA cant even pass that!!
Either the gene pool has quietly and decidedly (almost) universally worsened in a generation, or some combination of the teachers, teaching standards, curriculum and educational policy has become a joke.
By getalife
August 8, 2006 09:22 AM | Link to this
Um, are you saying no child left behind is a failure too?
By time for the truth
August 8, 2006 09:31 AM | Link to this
you are hilariously dishonest getatinybrian …
instead of actually addressing EVEN ONE of the points made you have yet another obsessive sneer at Bush. Last week I challenged you to simply admit that many of your posts LOOK LIKE/give the decided impression that you are simply reflexively, though I would now say obsessivly anti-Bush - which is your perfect right of course. Nor do I actually care either way what your politics are - but you’re simply too intellectually cowardly to evem admit that.
Thus far you simply parrot SQUAWK - I’m not liberal SQUAWK … I’m an American … SQUAWK.
Thus far you simply parrot SQUAWK - I’m not liberal SQUAWK … I’m an American … SQUAWK.
Thus far you simply parrot SQUAWK - I’m not liberal SQUAWK … I’m an American … SQUAWK.
Thus far you simply parrot SQUAWK - I’m not liberal SQUAWK … I’m an American … SQUAWK.
By getalife
August 8, 2006 09:53 AM | Link to this
Just pointing out the obvious lies or should I start calling you chimp on the toilet. LOL.
By Realist
August 8, 2006 09:58 AM | Link to this
NCLB is clearly working. Look at Alabama’s results posted just this morning. 1194 schools passed based on AYP compared to only 725 last year. Event schools in poorer rural counties showed huge improvements. The inner city predominately minority schools still stuggled however. These are the schools that stay in the news because of constant scandal and corruption and “mismanagement” of funds.
On that topic, it was “mismanagement” of funds that has led to the demise of Achieve Academy. A year ago thier young 25 year old principal “mismanaged” funds then she left the school and its lost accreditation with KIPP in her rear view mirror. Our tax dollars once again helping a corrupt Atlanta official get her “groove” on while the kids cant read in the 10th grade. Nice.
The obvious answer is to privatize it all and creat a competetive landscape in education. Offer up some real accountability among these so called officials who cant even seem to run a board of education meeting without a cursing and fighting free-for-all, much less educate a child.
When these parents realize that the place they are sending thier children each day is nothing but a breeding ground for felons and teenage mothers, maybe a change can take place.
By Play that funky music whiteboy
August 8, 2006 10:01 AM | Link to this
I think that the most sweeping overhaul chance was missed in the early/mid 1990’s, however we could look into it again. During the military drawdown (post cold war) in the early 90’s there were a lot of senior NCO’s (for those of you non-military folks that is Non-commissioned officers) that were going to be given early retirement or pushed out of service. Now NCO’s undergo tremendous training througout their careers on how to teach and train young recruits/soldiers/sailors. The training techniques and teaching techniques are very sound and produce great results. Now I’m not talking about the “full metal jacket” stuff - screaming drill instructors, etc. I’m talking about the Chief Petty Officer that taught damage control and firefighting to guys and girls that were pretty slow, but they got it down and knew it just as well as the nuke school students in the class. Here is what Georgia/City of Atlanta does - take these very motivated, very dedicated professionals that are retiring from the service (heck, everyone wants to live in Georgia) and get them here. Work it so that no matter what the rules, they will receive their full retirement benefits and the pay that a teacher with 10 years classroom experience would make. Discipline problems?? Forget about it. These folks have been dealing in discipline for years and years, troublemakers will be overmatched. The biggest problem in today’s schools in Georgia is how onerous it is to actually change your career to become a teacher - remove that barrier for folks who have already been doing it for years, senior military Non-commissioned officers.
By time for the truth
August 8, 2006 10:07 AM | Link to this
gutlesstinybrain is hilarious …
your daily venomous rhetoric about Bush/Cheny/the GOP is undeniably classic move.org hate speech, but you can’t/won’t admit it!!
You dont actually really debate on here, you just have your own obsessive wittle hate Bush fest - which is fine - like I said - its of no real consequence, free speech and all that. But your intellectual dishonesty is freaking funny!! And pointing it out is jolly good fun!
You are an outright LIAR when it comes to characterising your own politics. You are a far lefty … your cyber speech continuously evinces that!! NO “moderate” or “independent” ordinary American systematically spews the kind of robotic far left bollocks you do and is not of, or very close to the far left.
And yet you’re terrified of admitting it!!
HA HA HA HA
Come on … tell me where my education post is substantively or philosophically wrong - assuming you disagree.
By Amelia
August 8, 2006 10:08 AM | Link to this
By Mid-South Philosopher
August 8, 2006 08:15 AM | Link to
Allow parents to negotiate with the school of their choice. Such negotiations could include curriculum, instructional methods, schedules, dress code, discipline, etc.
How long would it be before some parents would be “negotiating” for grades. One of the problems besetting the school system today is that unqualified parents have too much say already. School is not nor should it ever be treated like just another business or business transaction.
By Play that funky music whiteboy
August 8, 2006 10:09 AM | Link to this
I neglected what kind of role models that these veterans would be for our children, seeing someone who lives and breathes honesty, integrity, honor and commitment.
By Realist
August 8, 2006 10:12 AM | Link to this
@ TFTT
But its those with getalifes extremist left views that the dems seem to be catering too these days. Clearly the likes of Hitllary and Dean have created the getalifes of the world. How scary does that make the upcoming election :)
By getalife
August 8, 2006 10:12 AM | Link to this
Sorry chimp on the toilet, I can’t read your rhetoric. It is like trying to listen or watch W, it makes me want to puke. LOL.
By Amelia
August 8, 2006 10:14 AM | Link to this
Areas such as discipline and dress code should be entirely at the discretion of the school administration. Mid South Philosopher, while lots of your points are very good, just think about the discipline that you see from todays kids. The way they behave and are allowed to dress by their PARENTS, and then tell me that you want PARENTS deciding that one.
By getalife
August 8, 2006 10:14 AM | Link to this
Realfake,
If pointing out the obvious is leftist then so be it.
By getalife
August 8, 2006 10:18 AM | Link to this
More proof that Iraq is a failure and they died for nothing
Sigh.
By Janine
August 8, 2006 10:19 AM | Link to this
I left the school system last year in disgust….some time spent teaching in private schools, most in the public schools. [By the way, public schools certainly offer teachers better salaries and benefits than private schools]. Having been immersed in the educational swamp for years and years, it is my opinion that the public schools are in a huge mess with causes so numerous that it is ludicrous to try to list them here. And solutions.????where to begin !!!!! And when would those with the power be able come to agreement on what should be done…All I hear is what amounts to pontificating from both liberals and conservatives…
By time for the truth
August 8, 2006 10:20 AM | Link to this
Realist is absolutely RIGHT!!
and the lobotomized obsessive Bush hater gutlessnobrain doesn’t even see its yet again been eviscerated logically/factually!!
it cant/wont admit its own far left politics because its a lying, dishonest pile of floundering, flaccid, spineless, yellow bellied, cringing, supine, cowardly worthless &^%$#)&&^!!!!
Whupped em again Josie!!!
By time for the truth
August 8, 2006 10:24 AM | Link to this
the sullen silence from the Bush hating eunuch chimp on its true political ideology is deafening!! …… huge smirk
By jbmlaw
August 8, 2006 10:24 AM | Link to this
My slight praise of the US college template was possibly too generous. Just read a funny article by Dr. Williams, http://www.townhall.com/columnists/WalterEWilliams/2006/08/02/college_stupidity
By modest
August 8, 2006 10:27 AM | Link to this
Just google Karl Marx and Public Education and you will see exactly what the American Left is trying to do. Dumb down the future of America so they will be dependent on “Big Brother”. Read 1984 dont let your fellow democrats tell you that “1984” reads exactly like the history of the Bush administration. It reads exactly like their idea of Utopia(negative).
By Curious Observer
August 8, 2006 10:31 AM | Link to this
I don’t have to read the entire column to know the correct conservative responses: (1) execute all teachers and fire all the administrators; (2) get government out of the schooling business and turn education over to private enterprise; (3) put God—preferably mine—back in the classroom; and (4) make sure that children are Taught Right, so that we don’t turn out any commie-pinko-liberal-leftists. As a newly converted conservative, I hope my solutions are at least modestly satisfactory to most of you on this blog, particularly TFTT, who evidently knows everything except American spelling.
By getalife
August 8, 2006 10:32 AM | Link to this
Debating with wingnut moonbats who will not admit the neocon plan has failed is intellectually dishonest and a one sided.
Therefore, I will continue to point out the obvious and not engage in this fruitless exercise of debate until they can admit to the obvious.
By Janine
August 8, 2006 10:34 AM | Link to this
RE: Amelia’s comment about parents….It is my observation that parents are, indeed , part of the problem. When I was in school and also when I first began my career, parent involvement was limited to attending performances at school and raising money for band uniforms…they would never think of attempting to dictate curriculum .And, guess what…public.schools were more successful in teaching Johnny and Jenny to read and express themselves clearly in writing and do math than they are now.. AND JIM, RE: your comments about the HOPE ..parents are the ones who pressured schools to inflate grades so that Johnny or Jenny would qualify for the HOPE..
By jbmlaw
August 8, 2006 10:40 AM | Link to this
Janine inadvertently makes the argument for vouchers at 10:19, noting that mission success by private schools does not require higher classroom compensation; the unavoidable conclusion is that there is something systemic in the government school model that precludes success.
I think Funky correctly identifies one of those intangibles that works; NCOs have real life experiences and problem-solving skills that translate well to (what Rush calls) young skulls full of mush.
One personal story, from 15 years ago. My genius-younger son came home from his daily government first-grade indoctination, and asked, “Dad, why do people want to kill the spotted owls?” I suppressed my anger at the leftist imbecile who had misled my son, and explained the misperception of intent among lumberjacks (who merely wished to feed their children) and the importance of manufacturing in the modern economy. It was only later that I appreciated the fact that my son thought to ask me “why?” I knew even then he would be ok, no matter what ever came later.
By JK
August 8, 2006 10:47 AM | Link to this
I like Play the Funky Music White boy’s suggestion at 10:01! There are lots of people who’d make excellent teachers and bring another dimension to the education system that it’s missing now. Addressing those barriers would be a great place to start!
As to “modest” at 10:27 Just google Karl Marx and Public Education and you will see exactly what the American Left is trying to do. Just what do you think you’re accomplishing when you enter a discussion by comparing “the American Left” to Karl Marx? You add nothing with your trite, baseless accusations. Do you think you’re CLEVER? Original? If that’s the best you can add to a discussion about something that MATTERS, seriously… stop embarrassing yourself and STFU.
By Realist
August 8, 2006 10:47 AM | Link to this
@ Janine
I couldnt agree more Janine. But we can all thank the idea and practice of liberalism in our society for where we are in education today. They seek to equalize each and every individual and give each parent the same rights to say, do, and act any way they chose, no matter how ridiculous, absurd and offensive to the majority thier ideas may be.
@jbmlaw
that is a great article. How to Hate Whitey 101.
By Janine
August 8, 2006 10:47 AM | Link to this
The top echelons of the public school systems [read that ELECTED school board members….as well as highly paid administrators / consultants who are slaves to whatever the latest so-called RESEARCH based programs are saying ] are populated by weak and ULTRA LIBERAL characters. Many teachers are not well grounded in the subjects they teach, even though one of the decent things about NCLB is the requirement that teachers be Highly Qualified..although there are many opportunities for getting around that. Again…such a complicated mess!!
By White Jesus
August 8, 2006 10:52 AM | Link to this
JBMLaw,
Nice article.
@Realist,
“How to Hate Whitey 101.” Is that what you REALLY got from that article?
By Time for the real truth
August 8, 2006 10:55 AM | Link to this
TFTT needs to be banned. His 5 cent words and mindless chatter have absolutely NOTHING to do with any topic I’ve read in here late.
By JK
August 8, 2006 11:00 AM | Link to this
No need to ban the jabberer. I just skip over anything he writes, knowing it will make no sense whatsoever. Spare your nerves and ingore it.
By Janine
August 8, 2006 11:00 AM | Link to this
@Realist….Ah, Equality….there’s the rub! All student’s can be respected equally,all students can have an equal chance at being first in line……but, all students do not have equal abilities not in athletics,and not in academics. The total denial of what is, to me , so obvious has brought our public school system to its knees….
By getalife
August 8, 2006 11:01 AM | Link to this
Let TFTT speak.
Let freedom of speech rule up in here.
By White Jesus
August 8, 2006 11:03 AM | Link to this
We don’t want to go banning people, because we would lose hilarious comments made by Rednecks :A’ AQ. Also, TFTT has some interesting things to say sometimes if you subtract the statements about race, liberals, and such. Pretty much..he’s Mid South minus Realist = TFTT
By jbmlaw
August 8, 2006 11:04 AM | Link to this
Curious, @ 10:31, there is hope for you, you are catching on. The government school system should not be regarded as a jobs program for leftists otherwise unqualified to produce widgets. The government school system should not “correct” the ethical or moral training the parents introduce to their children.
The government school system should spend less effort in navel-comtemplation, and should spend more effort in mathematics, chemistry, physics, economics, logic, organized writing, and perhaps some practical real-life topics like “how to fill out an income tax form,” or “prepare a resume.”
By Janine
August 8, 2006 11:14 AM | Link to this
AT some time in the not too distant past, public schools lost the concept of teaching a criteria….i.e. in 10th grade , in order to move to 11th grade, a student must be able to…. and began , {and this is edcation jargon } “teaching the child”. Sounds good, but it ended up in the county or state Consultant’s Mantra, “OFFER THE CHILD AN OPPORTUNITY TO SUCCEED”…which also sounds great…but,in reality, it meant lower the standard….give 10 points for bringing a paper back signed, don’t take off 10 points for NOT bringing it back. This led to the current mantra every child can learn, which is , *every child learns the same things at the same rate * is one of the most detrimental ideas of NCLB>.
By James
August 8, 2006 11:15 AM | Link to this
White Jesus,
Your equation should read: TFTT-Realist = Reasonable
By jbmlaw
August 8, 2006 11:16 AM | Link to this
Dear Midsouth @ 10:08, I respectfully disagree with your core argument. We must treat schools as “just another business.” It is that disconnect, between schools and the modern world, that we have to cure. Nothing understands the modern world as well as a business; the moment a business ceases to understand the modern world, the doors close forever.
By Realist
August 8, 2006 11:18 AM | Link to this
Well said jbm. Mr. Welsh could have hardly said it better….
By Amelia
August 8, 2006 11:18 AM | Link to this
When school becomes a business, it will cease to be about education. Which is what seems to always get lost in the shuffle.
By jbmlaw
August 8, 2006 11:20 AM | Link to this
Janine, @ 11:14, that is true insight. Thanks.
By modest
August 8, 2006 11:22 AM | Link to this
To JK, The conversation is about Public Education correct? I thought bringing up one of your Idealogical Masters was completely appropriate. That is quite nice of you to tell me to STFU though. Why dont you go back to text messaging your 12yr old playmates.
By jbmlaw
August 8, 2006 11:23 AM | Link to this
Ameila @ 11:18, you are exactly right, that is our goal. We wish our schools to cease being about “education” (whatever that is), and more about the specific life skills our kids need, e.g., mathematics, chemistry, physics, logic, economics, organized writing, etc.
By Amelia
August 8, 2006 11:24 AM | Link to this
So why is it that some of the less economically developed nations do a much better job educating their kids?
By Realist
August 8, 2006 11:25 AM | Link to this
Great post Janine. For me the word OPPORTUNITY usually perks up my ears because what it really means these days is FREE RIDE
By jbmlaw
August 8, 2006 11:28 AM | Link to this
Spot the logical flaw:
When a newspaper becomes a business, it ceases to be about the news.
When an antique store becomes a business, it ceases to be about antiques.
When a bank becomes a business, it ceases to be about money.
When a school becomes a business, it ceases to be about education.
By Amelia
August 8, 2006 11:29 AM | Link to this
I don’t think that you would want a nation full of the above types without the other ones too. Some of the personality types that are into the above mentioned skills are notorious for their inability to grasp everyday things and use simple, common logic. In alot of cases a brilliant mathematician doesn’t have good “walking around sense”. Certain things you definately don’t want them doing for you.
By jbmlaw
August 8, 2006 11:32 AM | Link to this
Amelia @ 11:24 just asked the best question of the day (please allow me to rephrase:)
Why does India do a better job (than the US) educating its children? Why does China do a better job (than the US) educating its children?
Answer: Not because they pay the teachers more. Not because they have elected school boards. Not even because they emphasize self-esteem and diversity. It’s the curriculum.
By time for the truth
August 8, 2006 11:32 AM | Link to this
“I can’t read your rhetoric”
@ Bush hating eunuch
what you REALLY mean is you can’t actually process awkward points that evince your intellectual dishonesty.
Having such a soft target as you always are is quite pleasing, so thank you so much for that!
By J Tom
August 8, 2006 11:34 AM | Link to this
As a conservative, I am impressed at the number of responders who think they can read my mind and provide my opinion and that of all conservatives.
There is an ‘educational underclass’ (overlapping, but NOT synonymous with economic underclass) of parents who have no education, do not value it, will not prepare, help or support their children, and won’t bother with vouchers, school choice or any other mechanism we can dream up. In short, they are not raising their children.
These kids are not hard to identify. After all, it is not the school that fails the tests, it’s the students. They are the ones who can not read after the first grade. These students should attend special remedial schools (not just classes in mainstream schools where they can be stigmatized and labeled) where the class size is limited to ten or less, and the school day is significantly lengthened. When they are up to speed, they can then transfer to a regular school if they wish. Pay the teachers of such a school extra - they will be doing the work of both teacher and parent.
If any parent objects to having their child attend, they can opt out by sending their child to private school.
There’s another group of parents I would like to send a message to: middle class parents who feel it is solely the school’s job to teach their children. I believe if a child fails any part of the CRCT the parent should LOSE THE STATE TAX EXEMPTION for that child. This really only amounts to a maximum of $180 (6% * $3000), and people with no or low incomes would pay nothing since they don’t pay taxes anyway. The money should go into programs to provide remedial help those students. Parents of special needs children should get two tax exemptions. If the child fails the CRCT, they would lose one exemption (and are no worse off than today). If parents of such children are so diligent working with their child that the child can pass the tests, they keep both exemptions - and they’ve earned it.
How’s that for a conservative viewpoint?
By JK
August 8, 2006 11:35 AM | Link to this
Modest, are you playing with your Magic 8-Ball today? You know who my “idealogical masters” are? Wow. Clever AND clairvoyant. Pardon me, oh Carnac the great. doofus
As both a parent and a citizen who will, in the future, rely on the goods and services produced by today’s youth, I think earnest discussions about our educational system are always pertinent. Getting in a time machine and going back 75 years isn’t feasible, of course. But I think we should try to retrieve the elements that were successful then (math, science, discipline)while addressing needs of the generation going forward. A thoughtful, integrated approach is more likely to yield desired results than all-or-nothing, black & white proclamations, or solution-less finger pointing. IMO.
By Amelia
August 8, 2006 11:35 AM | Link to this
There is no flaw jbmlaw. When something becomes a business it becomes about the fiscal bottom line. Everything else becomes secondary. And that is simple logic and common sense jbmlaw. But I know that it is futile to try to get that point across. I have practiced psychology for over 30 years now and have so many times seen the reality of people being nothing but another asset on a balance sheet or bottom line. Non-profit and for profit hospitals are a prime example. Just ask any medical association who consistently provides the best care.
By holdingAJC"accountable"
August 8, 2006 11:36 AM | Link to this
Tired of facade. Want real reform? One word: Discipline. The teacher gives a consequence. Every step up the chain of command supports said consequence to the hilt. The child realizes divide and conquer, appeal to mommy, or any other strategy will not work.
After some disgruntlement, the child accepts it as the natural course of things; he complies…and he learns!
It’s NOT rocket science…all it takes is backbone on the part of adults…forget embryos…all Bush needs to do is implant some stem cells from my grandma’s-or, based on his worldview, I’m guessing Jim’s grandma would do-spine into the torso of our educrats so that they can grow a spine as well…
By Realist
August 8, 2006 11:37 AM | Link to this
I like this one….
“When a school becomes a business, it ceases to be about activist judges”
BTW, my earlier reference was to Jack Welch, not Welsh. My apologies.
By rednecks Hate Skool
August 8, 2006 11:38 AM | Link to this
Any discussion of Georgia schools needs to begin with the FACT that Georgia has always been a lousy place to get a decent education, since long before there were liberals.
Face it - if it weren’t for FDR, Georgians would still be barefoot and have outhouses in their backyards.
Redneck trash loves the bumper sticker that says “My Kid Beatup Your Honor Student”. Rednecks hate education and educated people.
By White Jesus
August 8, 2006 11:40 AM | Link to this
I like that J Tom. Since my wife actually teaches and she teaches in a school area where parents are caught in that don’t care spin cycle. She has to both parent and teacher to a child whose academic goals go no further than the classroom walls.
By getalife
August 8, 2006 11:42 AM | Link to this
The GOP plan of “all children left behind” is the only plan working.
By JK
August 8, 2006 11:46 AM | Link to this
J Tom, nice points. The importance of education is indeed something that transcends the labels and matters to most of us. Assuming we know what “the other side” thinks is not productive. You’re so right about the segment of the population that doesn’t value education, and therefore doesn’t teach their children to value it either. I’m always shaking my head in disbelief when I see these families. My kids have always known I expect them to maximize their potential by learning as much as they can — not just from school, but through their own initiatives and curiosity as well. “The more you know, the more choices you have, and you can pursue the path that will make you happy!” A basic message, but too many aren’t getting it.
By White Jesus
August 8, 2006 11:47 AM | Link to this
There’s Redneck….I thought you were absent today. Getting fodder for the fire with all these “suburban” molestations, rapes, murders (daughters kill mom in Buford), student bringing Carbine 15’s to Fayette school.
By rednecks Hate Skool
August 8, 2006 11:49 AM | Link to this
I love all you rednecks that think you can beat or pray your kids into being better students. Beat your kids - they end up not just stupid, but angry and stupid. Tell them prayer answers all their problems - they end up believing in magic and fairy tales instead of reading and learning.
And let’s face it - thinking ain’t your strong suit.
By time for the truth
August 8, 2006 11:56 AM | Link to this
its not just the curriculum, its also (but not limited to) such teensy minor factors as the pedagogical approach which is still inculcated in liberal dominated teacher training gulags, and the both patronising and pragmatic assumption that certain kids can’t/won’t do so we’ll just quietly soften their learning experience and not challenge them. If the curriculum were intellectually stiffened up to where it was 30/40 years ago most kids in average schools today would be floundering. Which is why its been dumbed down!! In good part not to offend anyone in our multi culti paradise!!
I understand from my neighbours with young kids that here in the US learning to read is formally taught at school quite late - age 6 or so. I was taught to read at age 4, before I ever went to school.
Its hilarious and quite predictable to see that certain folks on here want to either ban me or just ignore what I write. Note that these are leftists who cannot handle robust/direct debate or legitimate criticism of their smug world view. I love the fact that liberals cant/wont take direct, robust criticism.
All we deal in here is words and images. Some of what I proffer is clearly designed to make sharp points with humour, perhaps even with some degree of witty abuse, some is clearly just well focused factual/logical commentary which speaks for itself.
Its gobsmacking that the left on here literally wont address the fact that they still largely dominate educational theory and practice and have done so historically and yet its “their” ideologically informed and controlled schools that are frequently failing so abysmally.
By Amelia
August 8, 2006 11:56 AM | Link to this
In years past when the U.S. di produce the best educated students in the world it was because of true professional educators. The schools best friends were the parents. Over the course of several decades educators in alot of cases are just there for the income. Second in most cases. And the parents have become the worst enemies that education faces. Want to see an easy college course of study? Choose education. Want to really improve education? And here is where I am going to somewhat agree with jbmlaw. Allow people with experience in business, the professions, the military, to become teachers. Quit insisting that teachers be versed in the cut and paste BS that permeates an education degree. According to the present standards and qualifications in place today, Colin Powell is not qualified to teach high school political science. Give me a friggin break people!
By Realist
August 8, 2006 11:56 AM | Link to this
OK White Jerome, I concede. Society is going to hell on both side of the tracks. We are ALL doomed. You happy now?
By time for the truth
August 8, 2006 11:59 AM | Link to this
certain kids can’t/won’t do well …
By rednecks Hate Skool
August 8, 2006 12:00 PM | Link to this
Actually, by the time the young redneck reaches school age, chances are s/he has all ready suffered from regular and/or irregular beatings from drunk and drug abusing violent adults, and a redneck culture that encourages defiance and illiteracy. By the time of kindergarden, the average redneck child has 2 1/2 strikes against him/her, and the chances of his/her becoming to an independent thriving adult are poor.
The schools become warehouses for dysfunctional children, the children of a dysfunctional culture.
By Dana
August 8, 2006 12:00 PM | Link to this
And now from the moderate point - J Tom, you make excellent points, glad to see them!
People, we owe it to our children to educate them in the best possible way, and that starts at home. Blame is not what we need to assign here, we need to raise our children, help raise those of others in our community (I’ll explain that) and STOP EXPECTING “Someone else” to do our job for us.
By helping, I am referring to the fact that when I was a child, my parents knew what I had done, good or bad, before I got home. Then, I grew up on varous Military Bases, and whatever I did was a direct reflection on my father. You can bet I learned early on what was acceptable and what wasn’t. I also knew I could depend on my neighbors if there was a problem, and we became more of a community, a larger family in a way. When one of us excelled, the entire group was involved. When one of us screwed up, everyone knew it.
I know this is a political blog, and I get sucked into finger pointing and ridiculous assumptions too, but I really don’t get the far flung idiocy I see in here - I cannot in any way relate to the extremist blather I see soemtimes, nor can I understand the need to finger point, or assume that “conservatives all” or “liberals all” fit any particular form. Get a grip folks, find a solution and then get up off your (our) a**e and PUT IT IN PLACE!
By Curious Observer
August 8, 2006 12:02 PM | Link to this
J Tom is right that there is an “educational underclass.” Unfortunately, it consists of about 90% of Georgia school students, not the small minority he envisions as needing “special remedial schools.” Go into the homes of this large group and you will likely find no books except the Bible and no newspapers. The parents assume that teachers will take care of all the educating and that parents have no role in it except for getting their children to school. In such a situation, trying to achieve educational excellence is hopeless.
Yes, we have a lot of extremely mediocre teachers—as a college teacher, I could usually spot the ones who had decided on education as a career by merely looking toward the bottom of my grade curve. But we also have some very good ones who are presented with an impossible task.
And the situation is little better in a lot of private schools. My experience is that the teachers are no better, but some of the students are by virtue of having motivated parents. Still, I found little difference in the college preparedness of private school graduates. A parent paying $10,000 per year in private school tuition ought to expect more than placement in college remedial courses for a son or daughter, but unfortunately the wrath is too often directed at the colleges to lower their standards, rather than at the system that produced the student with deficient skills. After twelve years of schooling, a student ought to know the difference between their, there, and they’re, but generally he/she does not.
By Taxpayer
August 8, 2006 12:02 PM | Link to this
Biggest reform? Make birth control available to students in middle school on up so that babies will stop having babies and perpetuating a permanent underclass of low-achievers and criminals.
By holdingAJC"accountable"
August 8, 2006 12:03 PM | Link to this
Where are all the conservatives; those who talk of “rule of law” and “personal responsibility”? They should be the first to realize you can’t even begin to fix public schools without fixing discipline.
Johnny misbehaves; Johnny gets a consequence. Johnny realizes “the gig is up”…Johnny sits down, stops backtalking/disrupting/assaulting and guess what? Johnny learns. Conservatives out there: do you not agree that the best way to provide “equal opportunity” is to make sure all schools have a disciplined learing environment? Given that, I have faith that the overwhelming majority of children can learn without dubious, money wasting, “reforms”. Don’t tell me you prefer the status quo? If you don’t…one word: d-i-s-c-i-p-l-i-n-e. See, that wasn’t so scary was it?
By time for the truth
August 8, 2006 12:05 PM | Link to this
@ curious pinko
“particularly TFTT, who evidently knows everything except American spelling”
That’s because I am NOT American dipstick!!
I was brought up using the OLDER more EXTENSIVE Oxford Dictionary which has “proper spelling” and everything!!
By rednecks Hate Skool
August 8, 2006 12:06 PM | Link to this
Actually, by the time the young redneck reaches school age, chances are s/he has all ready suffered from regular and/or irregular beatings from drunk and drug abusing violent adults, and a redneck culture that encourages defiance and illiteracy. By the time of kindergarden, the average redneck child has 2 1/2 strikes against him/her, and the chances of his/her becoming to an independent thriving adult are poor.
The schools become warehouses for dysfunctional children, the children of a dysfunctional culture.
By jbmlaw
August 8, 2006 12:07 PM | Link to this
Dear Amelia @11:35, you and I agree on the observations and facts, we simply disagree on the values. You see a fiscal bottom line as an opprobrium, and I see it as the most valid measuring stick. The first rule of business is, “if you take care of your business, your bottom line takes care of itself.” Your observation, that “everything else (other than the bottom line) is secondary,” is fundamentally incorrect, at least for long-term success. Education will continue to be a long-term issue, where short-term results matter to nobody.
Your time and experience in psychology is almost identical to mine in applied economics. You are surely correct about the reality of people being an asset or component of the bottom line. The important question is whether we should deny that reality, or address it.
By Scooter
August 8, 2006 12:09 PM | Link to this
Introduce competition. Competition encourages people to work to their fullest potential or loose their job to the competition. Government bureaucracies and their lack of competition foster ineptitude and complacency with the security of job protection.
Government gets its power from people who can’t function without it, so why are we letting government educate our children?
By time for the truth
August 8, 2006 12:11 PM | Link to this
“Actually, by the time the young redneck reaches school age, chances are s/he has all ready suffered from regular and/or irregular beatings from drunk and drug abusing violent adults, and a redneck culture that encourages defiance and illiteracy. By the time of kindergarden, the average redneck child has 2 1/2 strikes against him/her, and the chances of his/her becoming to an independent thriving adult are poor”
but redneckvermin …
extending what passes for your deeply impoverished logic, the exact same socio-economic problems exist in the yankee north and out west, as well as in all minority communities. indeed given the growing infestation of yankees sadly occuring now in the south - and the fact that its decidedly one way - i.e. SOUTH - traffic, the yankee contribution to all this familial mayhem you rant of here must, both morally and statistically be considerable!!
By Realist
August 8, 2006 12:15 PM | Link to this
Taxpayer, they were going to go with the birth control idea, but ran out of funding after installing the razor wire fences, metal detectors and hiring the security guards.
CO, regarding private school, though I dont disagree regarding the quality of the teachers and education being provided there, speaking for my family, it was a choice of safety and positive environment as much or more than quality of education when we chose private over public. My wife and I are both college grads, and we supplement our childs school learning at home when we think he is deficient in or not up to speed.
As far as putting a plan in place. We have to really look at these men and women we are electing and stop voting along party lines and racial lines and REALLY look at a candidates ideas and record. I just dont see that happening considering the divide that exists between us today.
By rednecks Hate Skool
August 8, 2006 12:19 PM | Link to this
Now, Time for the Toilet, my English chimp friend, if you think the schools are bad now, they were little better than zoos until the Yankees came down.
Yes, the schools in the north and west have declined too, but that is due to the viral nature of redneck culture - it’s everywhere in the US now.
By time for the truth
August 8, 2006 12:19 PM | Link to this
@ Amelia
“In years past when the U.S. di produce the best educated students in the world it was because of true professional educators”
HA HA HA HA
whan the hell did THAT ever happen??!!
You’re just having a liberal laugh love!!
Your secondary/high school system here is fully TWO years behind the English one. US degrees are worth LESS than UK degrees, go ask the INS if you dont believe me, virtually every UK degree is evaluated higher than US ones. That’s your fed govt saying this - not me!!
By Markus
August 8, 2006 12:20 PM | Link to this
@holding AJC:
“They should be the first to realize you can’t even begin to fix public schools without fixing discipline. Conservatives out there: do you not agree that the best way to provide “equal opportunity” is to make sure all schools have a disciplined learing environment?”
Well it’s a no-brainer actually. Conservatives have an EXTREME minority representation in public schools (and colleges for that matter). Doubt that, look at what political party is represented by the NEA.
So you honestly believe it was the idea of Conservatives to do away with the principal’s paddle? Do you think it was Conservatives in PTA meetings that came up with the brilliant “time out” method of disclipline? Do you think it’s Conservatives running child welfare agencies who obsessively look each kid over with a fine magnifying glass for the slightest hint of abuse or a spanking?
I believe you have your assimilation of Conservatives being the problem of disclipline bass ackwards.
[attention Susan, White Jesus, ‘Necks… your answer from yesterday is there now].
By War Eagle
August 8, 2006 12:21 PM | Link to this
The problem is you have too many diverse cultures forcing their “home land” values in the school. For instance, the mexicans are slowing down the classes when pedro and maria and juan cannot speak enough english or don’t know enough math to keep up with the rest of the class. Then you have the street gang thugs and their “don’t AXE” me that and “they was in they house” lingo. This is what happens when you either don’t have the proper teachers teaching or you have students with parents who are dumber than their kids. I’d like to know if any rapper finished college? Probably not, otherwise, they would not be a trash talking rapper. As for HOPE, we need it, kids need it and so do parents. Tuition costs go up and up every year. HOPE may be the only option for some kids to get a College Education. And who voted against how it was to be funded? THE CHRISTIANS!!! More specifically, the CHURCHES. Why? Because the Greedy Church wants all the money to spend on the preacher’s new house, car, boat, etc. NOT for the community. Are their Church scholarships? Gambling is a sin? Well so is stealing Mr. Church Preacher! Look at how many Evangelical crooks there are-Bakker, Jackson, Sharpton, etc. Did any of them give a kid a scholarship? At least if I play the Lottery, I either win or lose and have fun playing, but at least I know, there is a kid out there thanking me for spending a dollar so that he can get a scholarship and get a higher education. So for all you Churches, remember-BINGO is gambling! And Bingo is not contributing to the community scholarship fund.
By J Tom
August 8, 2006 12:22 PM | Link to this
Amelia, et al: There is a way for non-teachers to become teachers. You can test your way in if you have a degree in the subject you wish to teach. You must pass a SAT/GRE type test called the PRAXIS I; a specific subject test, the PRAXIS II; and a pedagogy test, ‘Principles of Learning and Teaching’ (PLT). My thirty-plus-year old GRE scores exempted my from having to take PRAXIS I, and I took the other two cold (no prep) on the same day and passed both of them on the first try - despite having had no college classes in over thirty years. I have a Masters and undergradute degrees in physics and astronomy and took the PRAXIS for middle school science. The next step is to get a provisional teaching job for one year. If I am deemed ‘worthy’ after that year, I would become fully certified. The catch is getting that job. Such a teacher would not meet the requirements of ‘highly qualified’ under the NCLB act, and letters would have to go home to every parent in the class informing them that the teach lacked that designation. No school wants to go through that hassle unless they absolutely have no option. Unfortunately (?) the counties around me don’t have problems that severe, but I’ve applied, just in case.
By jbmlaw
August 8, 2006 12:23 PM | Link to this
Dear TFTT, you and I normally work the same corner, but I will side with Amelia on this one. The US high school diploma 80 years ago was fully equivalent to the modern US undergraduate degree, in terms of the rigor of the academics. The US high school diploma has suffered a substantial decline in our life times.
By time for the truth
August 8, 2006 12:24 PM | Link to this
my rabidly verminous redneck enemy …
clearly this completely imagined “viral” thang you are still obsessively obsessing over has irreverisbly infected what little is actually left of your hallucinogenic fried brain by self inflicted unhinged brainwashing.
By Janine
August 8, 2006 12:26 PM | Link to this
IMPORTANT CONSIDERATIONS: One must not think that because private school students make higher scores on standardized tests and produce successful graduates that this is necessarily because they have better teachers or are a “better school”,, Private schools SELECT their students Their prospective students are tested academically and evaluated for age appropriate behavior before they are admitted,,,AND…if they don’t perform as expected, they are kicked out. Therefore, comparing any resulting scores or behaviors in public and private schools is not an appropriate measure. IN FACT when the top 10% of public school students are compared with private school students they are just about equal in scores and other criteria… and that’s the only valid comparison because the private school students are high achievers when they enter and if they do not continue as such they are not allowed to stay. One Harvard study of the NCLB program evaluated instruction in high achieving schools as well as those not meeting AYP. THe Conclusion…..*the best and most vigorous instruction was going on in the lower achieving schools..while the very high achieving schools were judged to be just maintaining the level of achievement with which the students arrived…
By MrLiberty
August 8, 2006 12:28 PM | Link to this
First, lets cut to the chase. Funding government schools in the current way is just plain theft. It is immoral, and transferring those monies into “vouchers” will make vouchers just as immoral. Additionally, with the money will come regulations, etc. and in no time the private schools will be just as crappy as government-run ones. Additionally, count on the price of private schools to go up exactly as much as the voucher amount. Don’t believe me, just look at what has happened since the Hope Scholarship.
What’s needed? Close the government schools. Tomorrow would be best for the children, but to appease the naysayers, give everyone 1 year notice. Vote to eliminate all school-associated taxes on property, businesses, etc. Pass legislation giving dollar for dollar tax credits to anyone who donates to help pay for someone else’s kids’ education. Parents can get the same credit, but only for dollars donated after paying for their kid’s first (high time they finally paid for their responsibilities). Give the same type of credits to businesses. Eliminate all zoning restrictions on school construction, and fast track permits, etc. unless they can be eliminated. Financially encourage builders to include facilities in every subdivision that could function as a school or classrooms. Eliminate all regulations governing home schooling and eliminate all mandatory attendance laws. Designate the first 6 months of this final year as Homeschooling months and ecourage all legislators to talk positively about home schooling every chance they get. Put all school facilities and assets up for sale to top bidder. Allow division/multiple ownership of schools (they are way too big now anyway). Sell for school use first, but take any reasonable offers. Frankly the land could have been better used the first time, why not the second time around.
End of the year, fire everyone. Good teachers will likely get jobs, lousy ones wont. Scholarships (remember the tax credits) would fill the gaps for parents who couldn’t afford the new options, but likely the cost of these options would be way lower than the current market - lets face it, it doesn’t cost that much to ACTUALLY educate a child.
From there on out, let the free market, parents, and the vast wealth of creativity within our society take care of education. Food is more important than education and we let the free market handle that. Why have we been so stupid as to let the same government that can’t even deliver the mail on time educate our children?
By Markus
August 8, 2006 12:31 PM | Link to this
Say it ain’t SOOOOoooooo!!! McKinney looks like she’s on her way out based upon polls. Since the AJC won’t print it, I’ll post from WXIA:
http://www.11alive.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=83044
That just sux. McKinney is just a useless circus sideshow arm-flailing big mouth Aunt Esther of Washington. Republcans need her like a lab needs a ball. Gonna miss ya sista!
By time for the truth
August 8, 2006 12:32 PM | Link to this
jbmlaw …
You are absolutely right and I am well aware that the old school house days high school ‘degrees’ were vastly superior and much more rigorous 80 plus years ago. However so were British public (actually private) schools and our grammar schools - (elite selective secondary schools) - see how the terminology is confusing for the likes of pinko observor when I speak ‘proper English”.
Latin, greek, the classics, advanced calculus and the rest of it has all sadly fallen by the way side in Old Albion.
I was merely upbraiding Amelia for her liberal presumptuousness :)
By rednecks Hate Skool
August 8, 2006 12:35 PM | Link to this
I might have to agree with some of you kkkonservative rednecks about clsoing government schools - casting pearls of wisdom before your swinish children is a waste of money and time.
How much education do you really need to greet at Walmart or flip burgers?
Heck, you can get your social worker to fill out your aid forms.
By rednecks Hate Skool
August 8, 2006 12:38 PM | Link to this
Good to see Markus today - jumping up and down under his sheets about Ms. McKinney - rather than talk about the issue of education - something he knows nothing about, obviously.
By Norman
August 8, 2006 12:40 PM | Link to this
Mr. Liberty… I have never had a problem getting my mail delivered on time. Is that a big problem where you live? You should really call your post office and talk with them about that.
By time for the truth
August 8, 2006 12:40 PM | Link to this
now now redneck vermin … just because the school district have finally enforced that long standing restraining order you forced them to seek at the local junior high school!!
By Janine
August 8, 2006 12:40 PM | Link to this
THE Problem[s]….[admittedly among many]