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DEL.ICIO.USExpanding government’s reach OK if it adds education options
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
The only thing tolerable about the growth of domestic spending during the Bush presidency is that, in some instances, there’s a devilish brilliance to it.
He noted one of those instances in Thursday’s remarks to the NAACP. “Let me tell you the strategy behind the act,” he said of No Child Left Behind, which is up for renewal next year.
The strategy, he explained, is to measure how well children are learning. And then to give informed parents, who know what’s best for their children, options. “When we find schools that are not teaching and will not change, our parents should have different options,” Bush said. Wealth can move from a bad school. Poverty can’t. Charter schools, where they exist, are an option. Choice is another, or public school choice, as Bush put it.
And now another option. Two days before Bush spoke, his education secretary, Margaret Spellings, joined the education secretary who served his father’s administration, U.S. Sen. Lamar Alexander (R-Tenn.), in announcing a $100 million scholarship program for low-income students in non-performing public schools. The program, if approved by Congress next year, would grant scholarships of up to $4,000 per year and tutoring assistance worth up to $3,000 to poor kids in bad schools.
“This offers a way out for students whose families don’t have the money for tuition or the luxury of moving,” Alexander said.
For conservatives, the idea of an expanded role in k-12 education has been difficult to swallow. More money is always popular, so even those who want the feds kept out relish the newfound dollars that NCLB brings.
The testing requirement is an example to conservatives of how to bring about reform — and get better outcomes. Whether children are compared across state lines is immaterial. That’s relatively meaningless.
But if the curriculum is standardized and children are tested on it, as Georgia is doing with its Criterion-Referenced Competency Tests in grades 1-8 , what it reveals about how schools and children compare is important. It identifies where the problems are — and draws attention to them.
Over time, incidentally, as Georgia upgrades the curriculum and pulls up the laggards, children here will perform to national standards on tests such as the National Assessment of Educational Progress and the SAT. It’s a matter, I believe, of standardizing curriculum and testing it, constantly raising standards for what’s considered passing. Georgia’s on the right course.
Once parents get information about their child and their child’s school, they need to be able to act on it. The brilliance of NCLB is that it begins to promise parents the same thing that HOPE scholarships promise parents. The promise is that there’s a reward for effort.
HOPE says to eighth-graders that regardless of family income or circumstance, effort will be rewarded and the doors of college will be opened.
NCLB says to parents that if they care enough about their child’s education to get involved, they don’t have to eat their frustration simply because they can’t afford to move and are powerless to force change on their child’s school.
The law now says outside tutoring is available and their child can change schools. That promise actually makes public schools better by forcing officials to target assistance to nonperfomers, lest parents who are financially able take their children and run.
The next level is the scholarships Bush is proposing. “I believe in opportunity scholarships to be able to enable parents to move their child out of a school that’s not teaching, for the benefit of the United States of America,” he told NAACP members.
For the poor, the first key is to provide access to better education. The second, as he spelled out to delegates, is to own something. A home. And for some, a business. “Ownership is vital to making sure this country extends its hope to every neighborhood,” Bush said.
It starts with families, a mother and father in the home. Then education. Then ownership. Then self-sufficiency and independency. Then less government.
If an expanded federal role in the traditional purview of state and local government does indeed bring about reform, and competition — by giving parents information and incentive and means to act on it — it will have been a completely worthwhile expansion.
• Jim Wooten is associate editorial page editor. His column runs Sundays, Tuesdays and Fridays.
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Comments
By Political Foreskin
July 22, 2006 10:11 AM | Link to this
This new NCLB act is another front for the crusade that the neo-christians are waging to replace liberal teachers (Liberal Teachers: anyone who can read science and constitutional law).
Cartoon Idear: Show Bush precariously holding a Snowflake Baby over a balcony guardrail and saying, “Everytime a Snowflake Baby sneezes, we combat global warming!”
Then show Karl Rove keeping beer cold with the ice he gleaned from changing a snowflake baby’s diaper. “Why didn’t we think of this before”, he asides.
By Political Foreskin
July 22, 2006 10:26 AM | Link to this
Funny how there’s always a biblical thread to all big government incursions into the teaching curricula….(curriculee curricula curriculo curriculaaaah….)
By Lee
July 22, 2006 10:54 AM | Link to this
… the brilliance of NCLB???? Wooten, are you that much out of touch with reality? Before you write such drivel as this, maybe a little research? Talk to some teachers beforehand. Go visit a school.
A large part of the problem with schools is created by politicians and bureaucrats. NCLB is a prime example. Even a good law, such as HOPE, has negative consequenses (ever hear of grade inflation?).
According to your last two paragraphs, the way to get less government is to allow the government to expand it’s role and spend more money. Whowouldathunkit…..
By Van
July 22, 2006 11:22 AM | Link to this
I just have one question, why is the Federal Government involved in education? According to the 10th Amendment, that falls to the states to govern.
The main problem with the NCLB is the taking away from local school boards the ability to teach. What we have now is a ton of paper work and teaching to a test. This is not education.
Please explain to me how this teaches a child to think and solve problems?
Cognative thinking should be the goal, not a high enough percentage passing.
Disband the Education Department, remove all “education” funding from the federal government, let State and local schoolboards begin to do the jobs they were elected to do and that is not to manage a federal program. We shoild allow schools to engage in education and not dance on federal strings attached to the federal money.
By Political Foreskin
July 22, 2006 11:29 AM | Link to this
Lee, We become that which we most despise. Thus the Repudlickans and the Democrats have switched places, the Repudlickans being the gay, (Cheney’s kid), big government, (bush’s cronies), warmongering (Pick a country, any country), deficit spenders (10 trillion dollar debt). …and the Democrats being the sensible conservatives, pleading for balanced budgets and balanced legislation, social justice, and healthcare for all Americans that doesn’t involve the faith-healing nor the clairvoyancy required under the Repudlickan RX plan. (dems are almost saintly good guys)…. Now let us all bow our heads and pray to the oil gods…….let us train all snowflake babies to be volunteer doctors and frozen embryo research scientists…..let us be the robots for Jesus that Ralph Reed envisioned…..Reed shall not have been sacrificed in vain…..lest the terrorists win…..
BTW: Saddam sent the USA a letter revealed today. He’s also on a hunger strike. Is there a cartoon with that angle…..turns out he’s licking the glue on the stamps to stay alive fooling everyone?? nah, uh, he’s a disgruntled postal customer? nah, it’s a dear john letter to Osama? nah. Forget it.
By Oh please Jim...
July 22, 2006 11:53 AM | Link to this
it does not matter if there are no decent jobs.
Cheap labor and free trade does nothing for the US, it helps to trade cheap Chinese goods.
You support a political party who supports communist China.
You are a “pinko.”
By Janine
July 22, 2006 04:19 PM | Link to this
Mr. Wooten…NCLB “devlish brilliance????? Devlish , definitely…Brilliance? absolutely not! Just a couple of reasons…and there are many! Someone above recommended that you do your research before taking such a stand. If you had, you would see that NCLB is a total waste of your tax money and mine. [1] the “measuring” part…Each state constructs its own tests [in Ga’s is’s the CRCT] and decides its cut off score for passing and a formula [secret of course] for deciding which schools make AYP [annual yearly progress]This is why a school in which 40% of 8th grade students fail algebra can make it and a school in which the average SAT score is !1260 cannot.! and that’s why some states have hundreds of so-called failing schools and other states have none!and [1] Check out the results of the mandated “transfers” …The students who moved from the “failing schools” to the so-called “good” schools” did no better on the test, and the scores of the schools to which they transferred in large numbers went down. [2]In order to be a “good” school, all subgroups in the school ,must pass . That’s why a school that has a group [40 or more] of students who do not speak English cannot make it …even though they are a U.S. Blue Ribbon School of Excellence and have an average SAT score of 1200…If they have a group of Special Education students [who by definition are “special” the school won’t make it either. If these groups move en masse to passing school, it would be on the “failing list” the next year. and finally…. a study out of Harvard found that the best instruction was in fact happening at the schools that did not make AYP…Schools that have more affluent populations were seen as “maintaining” the advantages that the students already had. Point: If the faculties of the highest scoring school were exchanged 1 for 1 and re-located to the lowest performing school,there would be no improvement in the performance. This has been recommended many times to districts…but everyone knows it would make no difference and no one is willing to burst the bubble of ignorance!
By Jim Wooten
July 22, 2006 05:07 PM | Link to this
Janine, I don’t have any problem with each state constructing its own test. We have a common measure —NAEP — so the test each state does will, by comparison, reveal to decision-makers how the local testing mechanism is stacking up. If the kids are acing one and bombing on the NAEP, that tells us we’ve got a problem with the state testing system.
The cut scores don’t matter much to me, either, in the short term. They certainly should be raised, and probably yearly, so that as the curriculm is standardized and teachers get more proficient at teaching to it, the “passing” score should move up. That would mean, too, that the number of failing schools could fluctuate from year to year in ways that wouldn’t particularly worry me.
“Failing” causes administrators and policy-makes to focus on developing problems at specific schools. That is a very good thing. Are there explanations? Yes. Absenteeism, special education, poor English skills, etc. But, to keep parents there who have options, administrators have to address the problem NCLB reveals.
By Janine
July 22, 2006 05:50 PM | Link to this
Mr. W. A failing designation because of special ed. and non English speaking groups COSTS US BIG MONEY for transfers, tutoring, etc…..when there is really nothing wrong with the school. As I said, special education students are exactly that…special If they could learn the same things at the same rate as regular ed.students, they would not be designated “special”. If a student who doesn’t speak English can pass the CRCT, then the CRCT is WAY TOO EASY !! …I’m sure you check in with the GET SCHOOLED blog . If you don’t , if you have interest in education, you should. One of the complaints of parents there and everywhere is that NCLB has caused schools to focus exclusively on students who , for whatever reasons, are of lower academic ability or potential or performance [choose one ] while the average and brighter students get no money and relatively little attention…Again, do some research on those who have transferred and those who have received tutoring[ which entails the expense of busing as well as hiring after school and Sat. teachers…It has been long enough now that it is obvious whether or not the objective is being accomplished.
By Janine
July 22, 2006 06:06 PM | Link to this
Mr. W… I am quite aware that we have the NAEP which, indeed , reveals how our state “mechanism” is working. HAVE YOU CHECKED OUT THE RESULTS SINCE NCLB HAS BEEN IMPLEMENTED…???? HAVE YOU NOTICED ANY IMPROVEMENT?????In addition, before we had that, teachers compared our CRCT results with the Iowa Test of Basic Skills [ITBS] a nationally normed test…….a miserable comparison…a 7th grade student who passed the reading section of the CRCT with the cut score, scored 3rd or 4th grade in reading on the ITBS..The results of the CRCT “reveal” very little that teachers do no already know..and they are so manipulatd by the State Board that they are virtually useless….and the results doo not cause goood teachers to do anything but focus on the test instead of real education….i.e. “this will be on the CRCT…this won’t so let’s skip it…” Look at McNair Middle in DEkalb….two years ago, NCLB required that everyone there be fired …{and a bonus offered to teachers who would come there…[NCLB calls it re-structuring”] …and guess what….this year, 2006, they had to fire all of those so-called master teachers that they hired 2 years ago and offer bonuses again…because…guess what…they still didn’t make AYP….
By Mid-South Philosopher
July 23, 2006 08:02 AM | Link to this
Janine,
You are “flogging a dead horse!”
Jim is a good man and a thoughtful conservative, but his mind is made up on No Child Left Behind. He has bought the “educational reformist” dogma hook, line, and sinker. Indeed, I suspect that he may really be nearer the “educational elitist” camp than he could never admit it.
Good news. The Elementary and Secondary Education Act of 1965 (which is what the No Child Left Behind Act of 2001 was originally called) is up for reauthorization in 2007. All of you bloggers, who feel as I do that the legislation has a number of illogical features and unfairly punishes some schools while allowing other to slide by, need to contact your members of Congress, both in the House of Representatives and the Senate. Additionally, encourage your family, friends, doctors, hairdressers, mechanics, plumbers, pest control technicians, and convenience store operators to do the same.
Incidentally, the “educational reformists” and “educational elitists” have their own creation working in their behalf. The Commission on No Child Left Behind, based out of the Aspen Institute and sponsored by several private group including the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, the John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation, and the Carneige Corporation of New York, among others, is poised to make recommendations to the Congress early next year. The Commission is chaired by former Georgia Governor Roy Barnes, who was soundly defeated in 2002 after ramrodding the Georgia Education A+ Reform Act of 2000 through the Georgia Genera Assembly. Co-chair of the Commission is former Wisconsin Governor and former U. S. Secretary of Health and Human Services.
No Child Left Behind is an excellent idea. The trouble is that it was put together by the “politicians”, drunk or otherwise, and it has many flaws. It could be amended to achieve the “officially” declared objectives, but it will take some intelligent people to do it. That being true, in the Congress, we may have some difficulty!
By Jim Wooten
July 23, 2006 08:31 AM | Link to this
Good post, Mid-South. The blogosphere is a good place to debate NCLB and to get some real sense from knowledgeable folks at the grass-roots level how it should be altered/expanded when it comes up for renewal in 2007. There’s time.
Though we disagree on this issue, Mid-South is a serious man whose education expertise is unquestioned and whose insights make for meaningful debate. Even before the blog, we exchanged e-mails over the years and I came to value — and pay attention to — his critiques. I will say, too, that my day starts more cheerfully when the first post is “Good morning, Jim,” which is the greeting when his is the first post.
By E. T.
July 23, 2006 09:27 AM | Link to this
Regardless of all the opinions, pro and con, to NCLB, Mr. Wooten hit the nail on the head in the next to last paragraph of his editorial. It takes families, a mother and a father, along with other institutions, to make the system better. A two-parent family, where education starts with teaching the children about acceptable social values, lays the groundwork for students who are driven to learn in school and more appreciative of the lessons taught.
By rednecks - America's Al Qaeda
July 23, 2006 11:30 AM | Link to this
Greetings, decent folks and trash too, from Oxford Street, London UK from rednecks - America’s Al Qaeda, Messenger of Gawd.
It seems most of you missed me yesterday, so before I respond to Mr. Wooten’s scribblings today, I’ll get you up to date on some of my travels…
My Friday dinner was in East London, around the corner from the East London Mosque, at a Bangladeshi restaurant. Despite my American-ness, I felt quite safe and welcome as my girlfriend and I enjoyed some exquisite cuisine. It was certainly more hospitable and safe than say, Dahlonega, Thomasville, Alpharetta, etc. etc.
The following tube ride to Central London near the Tower and the Monument was one of the worst incidents of my trip, however. Upon leaving the train, I heard music - banjo music, wafting in the winds of the tube tunnels, and we had to walk towards it to reach our connection. Suddenly, the picker broke into Leicester Maddox and Zell Miller’s favorite lovesong, Dueling Banjos. I half expected as we got closer to find Ugotta and Time for the Toilet engaged in some nude wrasslin’ and squealin’ on the tiles of the tube, but thankfully, the picker was soloing. I offered him 50p to “play something else, anything else” and he willingly obliged.
Yesterday, a quiet walk down Pimlico Road and through Chelsea, and down by the Thames - we saw the house George Eliot died in, then on our way back to our apartment near Bloomsbury, we had a pub lunch at an establishment frequented by Handel, Virginia Woolf, and John Maynard Keynes. Then a Andrew Lloyd Webber musical at the Palace Theatre Whistle Down the Wind, about a 50s southern town visited by Christ. (Naturally, the townsfolk kill Him again). And naturally, dear rednecks, I thought of you, and prayed for you, to a kind and merciful God, not Mars and Mammon, the gods you rednecks worship.
This morning? Well a Mass at Westminster Cathedral, one of the grander and holiest places in Christendom, where the majesty of the risen Christ is about Peace and Love, not your gods’ war and hate. I thought of you dancing and jiving in Mr. Stanley’s and Bishop Long’s sad little churches and I prayed for you again…
On the way back, we stopped at Caffe Nero, a Starbuck’s competitor, and read the London Telegraph and the Daily Mirror, from the sublime to the ridiculous, sort of like reading the NY Times and the AJC on the same day. Pictures, of course, of some dead kids killed by the Israeli and US missiles in Lebanon and Iraq, juxtaposed with Dumbya and a Snowflake Baby babbling about killing innocents.
Anyhow.
With regard to Mr. Wooten’s proposal, I am willing to spend what it takes to educate Georgia children - we need to be prepared to remove over half of them from their incompetent redneck parents - these children already have 2 strikes against them being born into such congenital willful stupidity.
Can you imagine the children of some of these bloggers, given what nasty losers their parents are?
Orphanages, lots of them, are the solution…
By cityres
July 23, 2006 11:48 AM | Link to this
NCLB just creates a system that teachers hate - they just have more paperwork and less ability to actually teach their children to learn rather than teaching to a test. The more simple answer would be to get the FEDS OUT of our education system! Do what parents REALLY want - without testing - and just give parents vouchers so they can send their kids wherever they would like. Trust me, the parents are well aware, with or without tests, where the good schools are. So if the ultimate goal is for parents to get the information (which they already have) to send their kids to a school they want, why not just give them vouchers, then they can decide? Then a parent could use those vouchers for whatever school they would like (much the way scholarship programs work for college). Why is that so difficult to understand? Then you wouldn’t have to spend billions of dollars on a broken system.
By Paul
July 23, 2006 12:00 PM | Link to this
Jim, you said it all in 3 words “Expanding government’s reach.” To many of us that is scary in and of itself. It is especially of concern in areas where the government has no place in being to begin with. According to the President “The strategy is to measure how well children are learning.” Whatever happened to the teaching children the 3 R’s strategy? NCLB has already degenerated into teaching the (Federal) test. The only real option NCLB gives parents is to move their kids from a school that cannot (or refuses to) “teach the test” to a school that does [teach the test]. Back in the days when PTA’a were effective, parents were able to influence what their children were taught. Now the Federal government decides. You say “It starts with families, a mother and father in the home. Then education. Then ownership. Then self-sufficiency and independency. Then less government.” Honestly Jim, can you cite any instance in which the “government” gives up anything once they get it, except perhaps the Panama Canal? Can you not see that children, who have grown up in a government dependent family, also have become “government dependent” not self-sufficient and independent? Your [Expanding government’s reach column] would more properly belong in the “Atlanta Journal Constitution” Thinking Left blog, if Cynthia would ever have the courage to start it.
Until our guns are confiscated the biggest threat to our freedom is the Department of Education. Government control over children’s minds does it all. Hitler taught us that. Dictators burn the books. Our Department of Education does not have to be that obvious. They just dictate what books our children have to read and NCLB insures that [children] read them. Putting teacher’s jobs on the line merely insures that teachers will teach the test, which [test] is also designed by the government. Children will learn the government’s “right answers.” Parents no longer have a real choice. Children who grow up learning what the federal government wants them to learn will also grow up thinking it unpatriotic to question what the government does. [Children] might even report their parents, if [parents] “question” the government just like “Hitler’s youth” did [turn parents in].
Giving the devil their due I have to hand it to the Federal Government. They really know how to “sell” a program. “No Child Left behind (NCLB):” The issue, however, is “behind what?” “HOPE:” Poor families fund “HOPE.” They probably throw more money down the drain buying lottery tickets than what it would cost them to send their kids to college. What kind of “hope” is that? “HOPE” is a tax on stupidity and a program for the rich to get their kids a free education. And finally, if acronyms don’t work, throw money at it. As you so observantly point out: “More money is always popular, so even those who want the feds kept out relish the newfound dollars that NCLB brings.”
If I had school-age children, I would home school them while I still can. That option may not last long.
By The Way
July 23, 2006 12:24 PM | Link to this
Funny, funny stuff, Paul. Hitler Youth!! I never laughed so hard. Needed a good laugh. This is why blogs are so great, it invites different POVs that allow for merriment.
Hitler youth. I love it!!!
By Ugotta B. Kidding
July 23, 2006 12:51 PM | Link to this
Paul: I’m just gonna be here long enough to point out that it was that great leftist DemoNcratic President Jimmy Carter that DID BOTH! During his Presidency he established the Department of Education AND gave away the Panama Canal. That’s “progressive thinking”!!! Duh-huh!!! And to my little homosexual buddy Redneck — You little pervert you…wanting to see Time for the Truth and ole Ugotta nekked! You’re so sweeeeeeeeet!!! See ya!
By Ugotta B. Kidding
July 23, 2006 01:01 PM | Link to this
Oh, one more thing Paul, the youth ALREADY turn in their parents — it’s called the **Department of Family and Children’s Services or DFACS! Some children do threaten, or DO turn in their parents for trying to discipline them. Try disciplining your children and see if these folks aren’t knocking on your door. I agree with EVERYTHING you just said. Have a nice day.
By NI7
July 23, 2006 01:10 PM | Link to this
Mr. Wooten, I do not know if you have children but if you do, did you measure the abilities of one child against another? I doubt it. Most parents know that their children are individuals. Most teachers know this also. The current guidelines of NCLB do not measure how well a child learns, it measures the progress of one group of children as compared to a different group. NCLB assessments should be based on an individual’s yearly progress, not the progress of one group against another. The benchmark should not be based on what a group of politicians consider to be grade level, children learn at different rates for a variety of reasons, very few of which have to do with the school or teachers. Individual progress is what should be and needs to be measured. As a teacher I welcome accountability. But please measure how well my students learn on an individual basis.
By The Way
July 23, 2006 04:12 PM | Link to this
Ugotta, once again you rise to the occasion and go yard. I dont know if you do stand up comedy, but you are a natural!~! The Jimmy Carter thing about the Panama Canal? Man that’s gold. You would kill on stage man.
And that whole thing about referring to gay sex everytime you post? Like you’re in denial about your own latency, and like you’re not genuflecting to the penine protrusion with every breath you take?
You, sir, are probably the most talented blogger that Jim Wooten has unearthed with this blog.
U keep on keepin’ on, Ugotta, cause you dope wid da rockin’ socken’ sullen gellin’
Tupac out… Bird…..
By Janine
July 23, 2006 05:44 PM | Link to this
Just one more thing today, Mr. W.. The only accurate way to establish the effectiveness/success/value of an individual school is to evaluate the progress of individual students in that school from year to year…and then look at the aggregate progress…! That would mean.:* How much progress did Johnny make from 6th grade to 7th grade in Reading, Math, etc..*.We did that in the middle school in which I taught, and found that the progress was impressive if not downright amazing! Students who made a 300 on the CRCT reading section in the 6th grade, made over 400 in 7th…. We even had Cox’s assistant super come out and try to explain to him this way of measuring progress….and he agreed..!!!Did anything change..Absolutely not…He said that even though he had made numerous trips to Washington for meetings on NCLB, he was unable to convince the powers that be that their NCLB measurement were not only unfair but inaccurate…
By Ugotta B. Kidding
July 23, 2006 06:06 PM | Link to this
The Wrong Way: Did I detect a bit of sarcasm in both your posts? You’re probably a big “boy” and I’m sure you’re old enough to get over it. Don’t like my posts? Then don’t read them! You need to have a little common sense to understand them, which I know you liberal “boys” don’t have!
By Periwinkle
July 24, 2006 09:10 AM | Link to this
Political Foreskin,
A wise woman once wrote, “Liberals use the word science exactly as they use the word constitutional. Both words are nothing more or less than a general statement of liberal approval, having nothing to do with either science or the constitution.”
It’s kinda neat to actually see this example, of that theory, in action. Ann Coulter is proven right, yet again.
Thanks, Periwinkle
By time for the truth
July 24, 2006 09:35 AM | Link to this
Its clear that redneck’s absurd narcissistic cyber drivel is taking over what’s left of its worthless pointless existence - why on earth does this deranged knuckle dragging excuse for dog squeeze post endless bollocks about its fantasy UK holiday that it obsessively and incessantly keeps planning on Orbitz??!!
Only the sickest of truly sick socially inadequate minds compulsively imposes such imbecilic mindless trash on its foes. Clearly redneck’s mental meltdown is happily fast approaching judicially imposed emergency sectioning in Fulton County!!
By holdingAJC"accountable"
July 25, 2006 10:11 AM | Link to this
I see a call for “grass roots knowledge”? Here is how you fix education. As much as the “experts” want you to believe it, it’s not rocket science. It’s really very simple: fix the discipline. Period. The End.
I wish one conservative out there could explain how the “rule of law” and “personal responsibility” party has been COMPLETELY silent on restoring discipline. How do you propose holding a teacher “accountable” when said teacher is subjected to PHYSICAL assault with absolutely no consequences for the student. Yes, this REALLY happens; a survey in Teacher Magazine put the number at ten percent of teachers.
Is it ok at your company that one out of every ten employees is assaulted by a subordinate, with no consequences to the subordinate? I didn’t think so.
So perhaps the conservatives out there who champion NCLB can explain why they have become as spineless as any liberal on the discipline issue.
Inquiring minds want to know…