Mike Luckovich

By The Watcher

August 3, 2007 8:10 AM | Link to this

They did it to us again yesterday folks and we let them.

Barbara Olson, Barbara Olson, Barbara Olson

N-GA posted an important piece yesterday. While older And satiric, still as true today.

Instead of holding the dead-enders to account here yesterday, We let them get away with altering the discussion.

Hannity,

O’Reilly,

Boortz,

Limbaugh,

Hume,

Snow,

Williams,

Liason,

Wallace,

Liddy,

Malkin,

Ingraham,

Coulter,

Matthews,

Liddy,

Medved,

Donaldson

Roberts

Stefanapoulas

Will

Scheiffer

Russert

North

Novak

Blitzer

Beck

Stossel

Are all very much still alive.

Things have changed some since this was written.

The term “liberal” media is just another slogan.

We can no longer let them set the debate.

Remember, WE are the majority – we need to act like it.

By IN THE NEWS

August 3, 2007 8:16 AM | Link to this

According to the Post, the reason for the administration’s feverish effort to get legislation to expand its surveillance powers under FISA is that earlier this year a FISA Court judge declared a key portion of the administration’s program illegal. The ruling of course was secret. And it seems that until now the White House had kept this information hidden form Congress. So why are we finding this out now? Well, that’s another interesting story. Minority Leader John Boehner (R-OH) went on Fox News Tuesday night and discussed the whole thing. But the very existence of the ruling is highly classified. So it seems he publicly revealed highly classified information.

By Robin

August 3, 2007 8:19 AM | Link to this

Hey DUH. Puhleeeze do NOT “pray for (me).” Keep to yourself those Pig Gods that you and those like you worship.

By Duh stands for Democrats

August 3, 2007 8:20 AM | Link to this

Watcher: :Look at the cartoon for your liberal media, dude.

Duh.

~~~~~

The Atlanta Journal Constitution, scrounging for bad news in Iraq, any bad news will do:

{{{{Baghdad taps run dry- Power grid can’t handle demands}}}}

Baghdad, war zone.

{{{{Tens of thousands of northwest Queens residents suffered through a sixth day without electricity yesterday, and any hope for a full restoration of power this weekend was shattered by new barrages of severe thunderstorms and the discovery of more extensive damage to the underground power grid.}}}}

Uh, New York City, not quite a war zone.

Besides which, Baghdad was the only place in Iraq with electricity before we invaded, because Saddam lived there:

In 2002 Baghdad had access to electricity on a near continuous basis while the rest of Iraq was limited to 3 to 6 hours daily. The U.S. government has made significant progress in improving electricity supply in Iraq and distributing it more equitably throughout the country. Through its overall program, USAID has added 1,292 megawatts of electric generating capacity to Iraq’s power grid, serving over 7 million Iraqis.

The AJC slanting the news to support their agenda, and at the same time, their cartoonist is falsely accusing the United States military of making propaganda out of the undeniable good news coming from Iraq.

Frisk the liberal first.

~~~~~

{{{{Judiciary Chairman Pat Leahy has been blocking any wiretap compromise until the White House discloses documents that may well be protected under executive privilege. Mr. Leahy’s purpose isn’t to sort out the right policy but to score partisan points by claiming the Bush Administration has broken the law. This episode is most distressing for what it reveals about the unseriousness of our political class. Democrats so loathe the Bush Administration that they are willing to throw away one of our best weapons in the war against al Qaeda. It’s long past time the President stopped pleading with Congress, and started explaining this outrage to the American people.}}}}

Same as the cartoon, democrats care more about their political party than they do the country they live in.

By Analchord

August 3, 2007 8:35 AM | Link to this

Nobody cares. People need to make noise like crickets. They dont really know what they’re implying, they just repeat and hack what they’ve read or heard. Like the mob in the “Ox Bow Incident”.

People want to think that they matter, and they want to believe what they say or write matters, despite how irrelevent or poorly expressed their ideas are.

Crickets matter. People hack.

Wooten said it best today. People dont study. They dont research. They simply listen to what’s in the wind and howl.

So all you ever get on blogs is stinking opinion, blind emotion, and links to other unresearched nonsense.

‘muff said.

By Duh stands for Democrats

August 3, 2007 8:44 AM | Link to this

{{{{By Robin August 3, 2007 8:19 AM Hey DUH. Puhleeeze do NOT “pray for (me).” Keep to yourself those Pig Gods that you and those like you worship.}}}}}

I apologize for offending you, please allow me to change my sentiments from “pray” to “hope” that you never have to spend the last minutes of your life on a plane hijacked by an Islamic suicide squad, like Barbara Olsen did.

By Goldie

August 3, 2007 8:47 AM | Link to this

No matter how Bush will try to spin his propaganda again in September, we do have a few in this administration who can tell the truth at times:

Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates said today that he was discouraged by the departure of the major Sunni Arab bloc from Iraq’s coalition government, and noted that the Bush administration may have misjudged the difficulty of achieving reconciliation among Iraq’s sectarian factions.

Sane Americans know that our military can do no more to help the Iraqi govt. They are on vacation for the next 6 weeks and they are taking no political action to solve their civil war.

GIVE IRAQ BACK TO THE IRAQIS!

By @@

August 3, 2007 8:48 AM | Link to this

I think Congress should wear their flip-flops in September when Petreaus delivers his report.

Oh wait, the NYT already did.

Success bites when you’re a liberal.

I predict that the Democrats will begin a new and different war with Bush and our military. They don’t mind surrendering our country, but by gawd they won’t surrender win in ‘08.

Democrats are “Weinie Warriors”, they plump when you cook ‘em.

By Goldie

August 3, 2007 8:56 AM | Link to this

We all “hope” that DUH and his trolls never have to spend the last minutes of their lives GOING DOWN A CRUMBLING BRIDGE INTO OBLIVION, or getting themselves blown to smithereens by extremist wingnuts like Eric Rudolph. Equally tragic, sometimes criminal situations.

By Mike

August 3, 2007 9:00 AM | Link to this

Once thing you can be sure of is that the rabid right and the rabid left will take the September report and use it as evidence to show that they are “right”.

Extremist partisans on the left and on the right are destroying this country (and wasting their lives on AJC blogs).

Mikey is just such an extremist, demonizing all who dont not share his narrow views and giving a pass to any who share his narrow views. He has the brainpower of the typical AJC poster combined with some middling doodling talent.

By IN THE NEWS

August 3, 2007 9:01 AM | Link to this

‘Deferred Maintenance,’ Tumbledown Bridges, and Bathtubs

By Goldie

August 3, 2007 9:04 AM | Link to this

Over 4 years of “turning the corner” and “staying the course” in Iraq:

Haven’t we heard since the Iraq War turned badly in late 2003 that the seeds of success were just beginning to sprout, that the military was now moving to the right counterinsurgency strategy, that Iraqi security forces were finally taking the lead, and that a political solution was within sight? And in the last go-round, weren’t we promised that another increment of force would solve Iraq’s woes and lead to political reconciliation? I feel like we have turned so many corners that we are back where we started.

By @@

August 3, 2007 9:05 AM | Link to this

Oh, BTW N-GA, it wasn’t me talking about spanish guitar. I don’t dislike it, but I don’t listen to it either.

I think Paul brought it up.

I saw the lib comments about Barbara Olsen after closing last night. First thing this morning, somebody brings it up again. I would have been too embarrassed to resurrect that disgusting exchange.

Flies like Ralph/Ernie buzz around liberals here at ml’s because the liberals stink.

By Company Store

August 3, 2007 9:06 AM | Link to this

WASHINGTON - The House passed legislation Thursday effectively permitting the importation of lower-cost prescription drugs from places such as Canada, Australia and Europe.

Filthy Republicans kept us from being able to buy cheaper medications for years. Now the guys with the white hats are in power and we are finally close to being granted ‘permesso’ to buy medication that any other schlep in the third world could already buy.

Democrat SAVE us from the socialist commie pinko Republicans that DESPISE our free market so much and who work so rabidly to insure that our market is controlled and we will all have to buy everything from their ‘company store’!!!

By Mike

August 3, 2007 9:07 AM | Link to this

Didn’t take long for the partisan to blame Bush fo r the bridge collapse. You people are sad.

By Analchord

August 3, 2007 9:08 AM | Link to this

Iraq. The 100 years war that’s lasted 10 thousand years.

Iraq: Intersecting subsets of Theo-ethnic tribes with revolving alliances and liasons. (all mixed together in an ancient, cross-border migratory circuit which itself is ruled by a rube goldberg set of Socio-political encyclicals which act as a perpetual motion wheel of fortune set on hate)

They have outhouses older than the grand canyon, man, and they dont spare no square.

It’s not a question of Bush and the hunt for WMDs. Bush is doing his best. We have to trust him. He’s not the enemy. The problem is MAN. Try reading about MAN. He holds grudges. He hates foreigners. He hates everything. He kills. He tricks. He plants booby traps. He ambushes. He smiles and waves at passers by.

Iraq is us. They arent’ doing anything that we havent done or wouldn’t do. The Roman empire ended? They argue about how? The Roman Empire wasn’t the Roman Empire, it was a map, of supposed conquests, with the conquered wearing Roman costumes until they realized that they can strip and win. In other words, it was France all along, not Gaul of Rome. It was a matter of the people understanding who they were, and then being themselves.

In Iraq, the tribes are not going to stop being tribes. They need their tribe. They like their tribe. They will kill to stay tribes.

Then add a foreign dictate and you get isurgency/terror/civil war/the revenge of the kurds. (part duh)

By The Smelt it dealt it theory proven

August 3, 2007 9:11 AM | Link to this

Didn’t take long for the partisan to blame Bush fo r the bridge collapse.

By Goldie

August 3, 2007 9:11 AM | Link to this

{{Didn’t take long for the partisan to blame Bush fo r the bridge collapse. You people are sad.}}

Mike the Extremist— please provide details to your uninformed assertion. Thank you.

By Company Store

August 3, 2007 9:17 AM | Link to this

Now that we have the standard liberal banner displayed (Bush’s fault), how long til the knee jerk conservative reponse ‘Clinton did it first’?

By Company Store

August 3, 2007 9:19 AM | Link to this

Analchord wants to declare war on ‘man’. Hee, hee, hee.

By Spike

August 3, 2007 9:23 AM | Link to this

No wonder this is such a dumb place to visit. Cease the crap about the saintliness of one Barbara Olson. Every time someone speaks accurately of something concerning a neocon goon on this blog some freak wants them “banned.” Case in point: Buy Danish. He or it would have Ernie, Ralph, others “banned” for articulately stating opinions and facts re that purveyor of hate. How typically Repunk. Here you have BD, without question the most vile, repulsive, recessed, repressed rodent of all the neocons on this blog and who has been vomiting up his filth and ignorance since the inception of it, wanting others banned for truthsaying. This from a xenophobic, Paleolithic, sordid psychopath whose entire life is spent right here.

Barbara Olson was as described. For those who care to disagree I refer you to the many thousands of hours of taped evidence and examples of what she said and what she was. She found it quite impossible to say a kind or decent word about most anyone. I need not repeat it here as it has already been quite aptly stated by Ernie, Ralph, others. Barbara Olson was, by her own CHOICE a PUBLIC figure and a highly controversial one at that. Her CHOSEN vocation in this world was that of a hatchet person, violently attacking anyone and anything within her own embittered mind. Doing so were her own culpable CHOICES, made thousands upon thousands of times thru her own free will. Got it??

Having CHOSEN to become and remain such a polemical PUBLIC individual, she is entitled to no favored or respected treatment whatsoever. Not morally. Not ethically. Above all, certainly not legally. There need be no reminders here from the little people who comprise this filthy little nest of neocons re the horrors of 9/11.

Barbara Olson doubtless died just as she had CHOSEN to live - filled with contempt and hatred for most of her fellow human beings. So be it.

By The Watcher

August 3, 2007 9:26 AM | Link to this

“”I saw the lib comments about Barbara Olsen after closing last night. First thing this morning, somebody brings it up again. I would have been too embarrassed to resurrect that disgusting exchange.”“

Absolutely! It was very embarrassing to watch the dead enders create a tempest in a teapot over Ms. Olson!

When all they were doing in reality was evading the issue.

Evading the truth is disgusting. That’s why you are in the MINORITY.

By Duh stands for Democrats

August 3, 2007 9:35 AM | Link to this

{{{{By Spike August 3, 2007 9:23 AM Barbara Olson doubtless died just as she had CHOSEN to live - filled with contempt and hatred for most of her fellow human beings. So be it.}}}}

Danish, @@, Dusty, all other Cons:

Do not take the bait. Leave the haters to stew in their own rage.

They are doing more than enough damage to themselves.

By Con Patrol

August 3, 2007 9:39 AM | Link to this

Ya Vol! Commie Duhnt

By Draft-Dodgers R Republican

August 3, 2007 9:41 AM | Link to this

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan - Pakistan criticized U.S. presidential candidate Barack Obama on Friday for saying that, if elected, he might order unilateral military strikes against terrorists hiding in this Islamic country.

Well looky here! Terorist sympathizer Pakistan thumbs nose at enabler, King George, but WHO are they afraid of……little Barrack Obama, a REAL man instead of a phony draft-dodging shrimp.

By Analchord

August 3, 2007 9:44 AM | Link to this

“….Xenophobic, Paleolithic sordid psycopath….”

Hey Spike, Say it, dont spray it.

By Say It Ain't So

August 3, 2007 9:46 AM | Link to this

Watcher, another term for ‘Majority Rule’ would be MOB Rule. The founding fathers knew this and that is why we are a republic and not a true democracy.

Goldie,(9:11) In the Snooze was kind enough to post this link to show where the repugs are being blamed for the MN bridge collapse. Follow the link and scroll down till you find article the homegrown terrorist group. republicans.

By Bad Dog

August 3, 2007 9:53 AM | Link to this

WASHINGTON - President Bush prodded Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki on Wednesday to unite rival factions in a country stung by an announcement that the largest Sunni Arab bloc intends to pull out of the government.

King George says “Bad Maliki, bad dog. Now here’s another dollar, go play in the street.”

By Analchord

August 3, 2007 9:56 AM | Link to this

Nothing makes me angrier than thinking about those americans on those four hijacked planes on 911.

I cant fathom the people in the towers. That’s just too much for my little mind. But I can understand the terror those poor people knew once they realized what was happening.

Then my mind goes to those damn Islamists, and I get real Ox Bow.

I have to fight the urge to Ox Bow every day. How dare those Islamists?

HOW DARE THEY????

By The Watcher

August 3, 2007 10:01 AM | Link to this

{{{{By Say It Ain’t So August 3, 2007 9:46 AM | Link to this Watcher, another term for ‘Majority Rule’ would be MOB Rule. The founding fathers knew this and that is why we are a republic and not a true democracy. }}}

And your point would be WHAT?

And its relevance to the topic of the myth of liberal media would be WHAT?

By Goldie

August 3, 2007 10:03 AM | Link to this

Draft-Dodger @ 9:41 — and when did Obama state that he might order “unilateral military strikes” on Pakistan? I don’t think he did — this is another way that the Neo-Con media are twisting what the Dems have to say.

I don’t think Obama gave any specific details about the “action” he would take if we “went after” Bin Laden, which of course is what Bush was supposed to do back in 2001… does he mean getting UN backing behind us like we did before going into Afghanistan? Then it would not be a “unilateral” strike. Of course, after Bush has created such a disaster in the Middle East, it may be very difficult to get other countries to go with us again into a military action… we’ll see!

Bad, bad Neo-Con media!

By GodHatesTrash

August 3, 2007 10:07 AM | Link to this

I’m not one to spread good cheer very often, but folks, it is good when bad things happen to bad people.

Barbara Olsen died hoisted on a petard much like her own - terrorizing the truth, full of hatred and fear, on 9/11 a misanthrope met up with an evil that matched her own.

Lucko losers - don’t be hatin’ - when your gal(?) pal Tranny Annie wished that the planes had hit the NY Times, y’all thought that was funny.

I’m just sayin’.

Trash.

By IN THE NEWS

August 3, 2007 10:08 AM | Link to this

THE NEO-CON MEDIA MACHINE

By Spike

August 3, 2007 10:08 AM | Link to this

Finishing up for the unable-to-compete inferior Repunks aboard. The so-called phone call exchange allegedly took place between Ms. Olson and her husband, Theodore, Bush’s US Solicitor General. The single most individual who conned the Supreme Court into annointing Shrub to the presidency. Very many objective, impartial individuals and organizations have examined and investigated that alleged scene thoroughly, and have come to the conclusion that the entire phone call story is but a massive myth and hoax perpetrated and perpeuated by “our” government. With CNN and Fox and others deeply involved for reasons of their own and government threat and pressure. The news media throughout Europe and the rest of the civilized world have ALWAYS thought the heroic phone call caper to be of convenient manufacture and nothing more than needed propaganda. Only in America can one NOT read about it in the newspapers. You Repunks are too intrinsically stupid to be teachable, so I shan’t perform your work for you. The hard, hard evidence of this topic is readily available. Climb out of your assorted individual mental cesspools and search. Suggest you start w Joe Vialls and then work outwards. Gutless, inferior fools. Enough of you!

By IN THE NEWS

August 3, 2007 10:13 AM | Link to this

Neocon influence in the US media The number of neocon dominated/controlled journals and program outlets has steadily increased ever since the introduction of Commentary. Eric Alterman lists the following outlets according to their degree of neoconnery [7]: Commentary The Weekly Standard Most of National Review Half The New Republic City Journal The New Criterion The Washington Times Insight The New York Post The New York Sun The editorial pages of the Wall Street Journal 60 or so percent of the Washington Post op-ed page A twice-a-week appearance on the New York Times op-ed page All of Fox News Much of MSNBC A bit of CNN More and more of PBS The American Enterprise Institute The Heritage Foundation The Hoover Institution The Project for the New American Century The US National Security Council The Department of Defense Parts of the World Bank and the United Nations Ambassador’s office A healthy chunk of the State Department The Vice-President’s office And an unknown percentage of what is politely referred to as “the president’s mind”

By Mike

August 3, 2007 10:18 AM | Link to this

Goldie:

I was talkig about you when you said “We all “hope” that DUH and his trolls never have to spend the last minutes of their lives GOING DOWN A CRUMBLING BRIDGE INTO OBLIVION”.

Also what type of extremist am I? I voted for Clinton twice and though he was brought down by extremists from the right. I voted for Bush twice and think that he was destroyed by extremists from the left.

Unlike you, I don’t beleive that anyone who doen’t share my narrow views is to be demonized. You apparently disagree. There is no differnce between you and the wackos on the right, You are all the same. Just like there is differencebetween Maher-Coulter, Hannity-Olbermann, Rush-Mikey. You are all a bunch of partisan zombies, incapable of coherent thought.

By Paul

August 3, 2007 10:20 AM | Link to this

Draft Dodger at 9:41

Sen Obama was born in 1961. The draft ended in 1973. Unless we were drafting 12-year olds to go to Vietnam, he wasn’t eligible.

BTW - Vietnam draft dodgers were not generally considered (except by some on the hard right - witness the reaction to Pres Carter’s pardon) traitors, cowards or shirkers. Most thought of them as smart, intrepid, takers of a moral stand. This entire “Vietnam draft dodgers were cowards” is largely a political creation of the last few years.

By Duh stands for Democrats

August 3, 2007 10:22 AM | Link to this

NPR is run by “Neocons” (-: you freaking liberals always cheer me up, laughter does wonders for the soul.

~~~~~

{{{{If our mission in Iraq were to ultimately be deemed a success, everyone would know that most Democrats had been wrong to want to abandon the mission. But if Democrats would actually start celebrating our victories, maybe the majority of the public would forget that for a time they appeared to be actively working for defeat. Just maybe if Democrats in Congress would begin working to ensure that the progress that is being made in Iraq is built upon and encouraged, rather than belittled and abandoned and defunded, they would be able to share the credit for any resulting success. Instead most Democrats seem determined to not only ignore the positive results of the surge, but to do what is in their power to see them reversed.}}}}

By Dusty

August 3, 2007 10:27 AM | Link to this

A few notes this morning:

To North Georgia—I am the one who enjoys classical Spanish guitar. Last night I checked out some of your suggestions. Enjoyed Liebert, Gypsy KIngs and especially Segovia’s Tremola. But my all time favorite is the Firedance music by Wolfgang Vrecun. Never tire of playing that one.

By IN THE NEWS

August 3, 2007 10:28 AM | Link to this

Veterans of the battles over public broadcasting know the script by now: Right-wing Republicans denounce NPR and PBS for being too “liberal,” threatening to cut their federal funding. Public broadcasting’s defenders rally to “save” Big Bird and the like. The difference this time around, though, is significant. The right-wing Republican is not a politician per se. He’s Kenneth Tomlinson, chair of the government-funded Corporation for Public Broadcasting (CPB), and thus the man in charge of distributing federal dollars to public broadcasters.

By Say It Ain't So

August 3, 2007 10:28 AM | Link to this

Watcher, (10:01)
Majority Rule = Mob Rule was in response to your (8:10) post stating “We can no longer let them set the debate. Remember, WE are the majority – we need to act like it.”

As for you comment “the myth of liberal media”, if you would step back from the forest, you just might see a few trees.

By IN THE NEWS

August 3, 2007 10:30 AM | Link to this

The lies of Ken Tomlinson Kenneth Y. Tomlinson, the Republican chairman of the Corporation for Public Broadcasting (CPB), faces growing criticism from supporters of public radio and public television who argue that his leadership has compromised CPB’s charter to protect public broadcasting against political interference

By Paul

August 3, 2007 10:30 AM | Link to this

Goldie

Here’s one of the better analyses of Sen Obama’s Pakistan remarks;

Link: Sen Obama on Pakistan strikes

If you have the time, you can watch a recording of his remarks here I do like the original source:

Link: [Sen Obama’s speech](http://www.wilsoncenter.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=events.event&event_id=269510#

“Actionable” is government-speak for “information we receive that will allow us to take immediate, definite action.” It’d be like saying “OBL will be in this house from 9-11 am on Tuesday” as opposed to “he’s still in Tora Bora.”

Frankly, if the current administration had that kind of intel they’d launch a cruise missile - and probably not notify Pakistan (don’t want any replays of Pres Clinton’s SecState Albright notifying our “allies”). We can ride out the indignation on an air strike. I think the minute we send in ground forces the entire dynamics change.

By The Watcher

August 3, 2007 10:35 AM | Link to this

””“Majority Rule = Mob Rule was in response to your (8:10) post stating “We can no longer let them set the debate. Remember, WE are the majority – we need to act like it.””“

The last line of a post too frightening to you to address fully.

By Paul

August 3, 2007 10:50 AM | Link to this

Goldie

I’ll try again with a different link for the speech recording. You’ll have to follow a couple links to get there, though.

Link: {Sen Obama’s speech](http://techpresident.personaldemocracy.com/taxonomy/term/16376)

By Goldie

August 3, 2007 10:50 AM | Link to this

“”Unlike you, I don’t beleive that anyone who doen’t share my narrow views is to be demonized.”“

ROFL! Here’s what Mike the Hater had to post just this morning:

{{Mikey is just such an extremist, demonizing all who dont not share his narrow views and giving a pass to any who share his narrow views. He has the brainpower of the typical AJC poster combined with some middling doodling talent.}}

Mike the Demonizer — who you calling extremist??? Of course, your Shi-ite never stinks. Just everyone who disagrees you does…

By Say It Ain't So

August 3, 2007 10:51 AM | Link to this

Watcher (10:35) “The last line of a post too frightening to you to address fully.”

Frightening, Nope. Ignorant, Yep.

There is nothing to address here.

You seem to forget that we are not ruled by ‘majority/mob rule’. Only the libs seem to think this is the American way.

By The Watcher

August 3, 2007 10:56 AM | Link to this

Coward

By Paul

August 3, 2007 10:57 AM | Link to this

Goldie

I’ve not had links truncated like that before. If this doesn’t work, try Googling

Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars Sen Obama Speech

and click the link beginning with techPresident

Link: Speech

By w's ears

August 3, 2007 10:59 AM | Link to this

CHAOS IN CONGRESS: Republicans Walk Out on House Vote

By mm

August 3, 2007 11:00 AM | Link to this

Duh,

Where has progress been made in Iraq? Example please. I honestly want progress, so please provide an example.

By Dusty

August 3, 2007 11:04 AM | Link to this

Paul@10:20

I will have to disagree with you on Viet Nam draft dodgers, in particular, Canadian runaways.

I am neither hard right fundamentalist, nor “hard shell” Baptist, listen only to music on radio, etc. But I have never heard any one among the people I know say something good about draft dodgers. It was always phrased in terms of cowards too afraid to fight for their country.

And no, I was not “stuck” at home during Viet Nam but working in the field of medicine. Perhaps you were in academe where many of the so-called anti-war liberals arose.

This was and is not a sudden rise of rejection for draft dodgers. It happened as soon as their actions were made public.

By Cindy

August 3, 2007 11:14 AM | Link to this

Paul, Thank you for putting the Vietnam war in context and doing it so eloquently. Too many people don’t realize the “mood” of the nation at that time and think they can automatically put the Vietnam War in today’s context.

By rushncap

August 3, 2007 11:15 AM | Link to this

Ha! The one Democrat they get in an ethics scandal and they can’t even do THAT in a legal manner. Oh, and I’m back from vacation. Oh that beautiful beautiful San Diego…

By Paul

August 3, 2007 11:24 AM | Link to this

Dusty

My perception changed over time (Vietnam went on for a long time). Initially, I’ll agree, that was the perception. Then as the meatgrinder wore on some things became evident: the draft was only for the Army and I think the Marines - not the AF or Navy. Draftees were generally slotted for Vietnam duty. National Guard and Reserve rotations were not at all like today. Quite rare - which is why people sought Guard/Reserve slots (limited openings, you generally had to know someone to get in). If you were in college you could get a deferment.

It became obvious there was a difference between nationalism and expansionism (North Vietnam), that the domino theory was a theory that would never see reality. But it was initially given much credence, given the times.

So while I will agree that initially there was general condemnation of those who left the country to avoid the draft, as the years went by and the other means to avoid the draft (available to those with connections or means, unless you lived in Calif where there was zip tuition for college) you didn’t have an option to avoid ground duty in Vietnam (draftees generally equaled riflemen - not other, “safe” fields).

Go to college = deferment

Connections/know someone = get in the Guard/Reserves and stay home. Considered lucky. Envied.

Volunteer = get on a long waiting list for the AF or Navy and avoid combat. Considered lucky. Envied.

Volunteers who made many go “Huh? Is he CRAZY?!!?” = join any branch and request combat. A current senator comes to mind.

If you were a poor schmuck with no options = draftee, rifle, combat.

Then the lottery hit - to do away with much of the disparity. But by then Vietnam was winding way down.

By RW-(the original)

August 3, 2007 11:26 AM | Link to this

rushncap,

Are you happy that now any Congressperson of any political stripe can hide any and all corruption from prosecution by making sure any potential evidence is included in a document that contains “legislative” business? Is it time to let Duke Cunningham out of jail based on your gloating position over Jefferson? Why should Congresspeople be above the law in your opinion?

BTW, Jefferson will get some papers returned to his office. I’m pretty sure that won’t include 90 G’s wrapped in tin foil and packed up in Boca Burger boxes and it won’t exactly hinder his eventual prosecution either.

Oh and I have to agree with you about San Diego, I’m heading out to Del Mar later this month. Beautiful place!

By rushncap

August 3, 2007 11:30 AM | Link to this

RW — the ruling said that the search of Jefferson’s office was conducted illegally. It said nothing about never searching any Congressman’s office. In this particular case it was not legal.

As for you heading to my hometown, all I can say is…. ugh! Well, I guess we need tourist dollars, no matter where the come from.

By Paul

August 3, 2007 11:32 AM | Link to this

rushncap - I hope you did in San Diego

and

RW - I hope you will

enjoy some REAL Mexican food while there!

By GodHatesTrash

August 3, 2007 11:33 AM | Link to this

Point of clarification re Dusty’s last post:

Bedpan emptier is indeed a job in the medical field. It’s not what one would call a medical profession though.

Trash.

By Fellow Lab Rat

August 3, 2007 11:35 AM | Link to this

Yes, Dusty, worked in the field of medicine during the Vietnam War, with me and the other lab rats. She was our favorite, so kind, and so generous.

Those experiments they did on her were really quite awful, now, I hear she’s changed and that she never recovered.

By RW-(the original)

August 3, 2007 11:38 AM | Link to this

rushncap,

I’m sure you read some headline at DU and didn’t bother reading the ruling. It’s really a shame that you are so averse to gaining any knowledge.

In any case the ruling says that the Justice Department is part of the Executive Branch and therefore cannot look at papers belonging to the Legislative Branch. That’s a pretty scary thought when you consider the long term ramifications, but feel free to wallow in your ignorance.

Paul,

Do you have any recommendations?

I’ll see you guys at happy hour! Drink up Billiam the Snowman aka getalife.

By @@

August 3, 2007 11:39 AM | Link to this

Spike @ 10:08:

(((Suggest you start w Joe Vialis and then work outwards.)))

You can’t get much further “out there” than Joe Vialls. He’s one of those nutjob conspiracy theorists.

He was the guy who wrote “Home Run” claiming that the hijacked flights 757 and 767 were electronically hijacked and flown by remote control into their targets.

He even claimed the 2004 tsunami was a Jewish plot intended to destroy millions of their enemies. Said the tsunami was triggered by a nuclear explosion.

Spike, you need to see a psychiatrist.

Seriously!!!!!!

By Hillary's cleavage

August 3, 2007 11:43 AM | Link to this

LEAHY: I’m just asking you what role you have. I’m just asking you what you do. Let’s not be too contemptuous of this committee. The American taxpayers pay your salary. You work for the American people. I’m just asking you what you DO.

JENNINGS: (leans over to consult with Mark Paoletta, his attorney) This falls under the terms of executive privilege, and respectfully I must decline to answer that question at this time.

Rove’s aide is a coward like w.

Geez.

By rushncap

August 3, 2007 11:47 AM | Link to this

I understand that reading and comprehending whatever it is you’re reading are not your strong points, stalk, so here ya go: “The three-judge panel unanimously ruled that the search itself was constitutional but that FBI agents crossed the line when they viewed every record in the office without giving Jefferson the chance to argue that some documents involved legislative business.”

I’ll even provide a translation for you: raids on Congressmen’s offices are completely legal, but they must give the Congressmen a chance to not let the FBI see certain documents which are not pertinent to the alleged crime. Let me know if you need any more help with this, RW, I’ll be glad to provide it.

By Goldie

August 3, 2007 11:50 AM | Link to this

{{A bridge expert on Lehrer New Hour said last night that federal highways are under the jurisdiction of the Federal government but BRIDGES are under the supervision of STATES.}}

I don’t really blame Bush for the collapsing of American infrastructure today. I lay the blame on Reagan and the emerging Neo-Con push to destroy American cities and states back in the 80’s with their “no new taxes” mantra. American infrastructure maintenance be damned — “we want our tax cuts!” and “Star Wars defense shield” was your mantra…

There, do you Repug trolls feel better now???

By Paul

August 3, 2007 11:54 AM | Link to this

RW-(the original)

I used to - changed too much now (I grew up down there - back before it was wall to wall houses and Del Mar was a blip in the road where you could pull your car over and hit the beach. Now I need a GPS to find my way around).

But generally - anything that looks like a hole in the wall. Seriously. Mom and pop type operation.

But I will recommend:

San Diego Wild Animal Park - north of San Diego, right off the freeway at Escondido. The zoo is downtown in Balboa Park - worth a day trip.

Palomar Observatory - North county, pretty drive through what the county used to look like (undeveloped) then a drive to 5000 feet up the mountain. Takes a few hours total. Stop at the Mission San Luis Rey in Oceanside on the way there.

Or you could just relax on the beach. Or go way inland and see that you can get a 1500sq, 50-year old home with no updates for $500K -

By Goldie

August 3, 2007 11:57 AM | Link to this

Paul @ 10:30— thanks for that link. That Obama is one smart dude:

{{“The first step must be getting off the wrong battlefield in Iraq, and taking the fight to the terrorists in Afghanistan and Pakistan,” he said.}}

We shouldn’t have allowed Al-Qaeda to rebuild itself when we diverted our troops away from Afghanistan in 2003. Terrible, tragic mistake by the Neo-Cons and their “vision”, and America will be paying a heavy price for too many years to come.

By Cindy

August 3, 2007 12:06 PM | Link to this

The Jefferson office invasion was ruled unconstitutional. Where’s ITN?

By Paul

August 3, 2007 12:10 PM | Link to this

Goldie

You’re welcome. He is.

I generally like to hear comments straight from the person, in context, without someone else’s opinion telling me what he/she meant.- but again, I’d love to see a correlation between campaign war chest amounts and primary victories (and the nomination) over time. Remember how Bush with his huge war chest crushed McCain? Ever wonder what drove McCain to ally with Feingold to push campaign finance reform?

Hopefully the next Pres will continue the war (larger context) with continuing to shut down the money trails, encouraging investments in infrastructure by the oil monarchies that will result in jobs for their people, investing in poorer Muslim countries for the same goals, getting them to establish universal education under the auspices of the government, get rid of madrassas, get serious with a cyberwarfare capability (offense and defense). That’s part of the “vision” I hope the next administration will pursue - and I fault DoD and State with not pushing this.

It ain’t all bombs and bullets.

By Dusty

August 3, 2007 12:14 PM | Link to this

Paul,

Yes, concepts do change. After every war, we have people who come up with other reasons for not going to war at the time. We should have………..

I understand NOT wanting to go to war. Only the naive would wish such a catastrophe for so many people.

But in this country we have said that the President and Congress shall in a sensible and considered way make such final decisions about what is best. We can squawk and complain all we want. But, the truth remains, when our leaders call for us to serve there are few excuses for NOT doing so.

No, I am not talking about war under dictators like Hitler, Stalin, Saddam, Idi Amin. Those citizens have little choice. We have a choice BEFORE the fact.

But back to cowardice which you did not mention. The “aroma” of that word still clings to illegal draft “avoiders” such as the Canadian runners.

Bye now..see ya’ much later…

By Say It Ain't So

August 3, 2007 12:15 PM | Link to this

Paul, (11:24)

One minor correction to your comment “the draft was only for the Army and I think the Marines - not the AF or Navy”. While I was waiting to be “sworn in” with about 50 other draftees/enlistees, in walked 3 or 4 officers. They told (yelled) for every draftee to stand. About 30 people stood up. The newly arrived officers picked out about a half dozen guys and said come with us, you’re in the Navy now.

So for the most part every draftee went into the Army, a few were culled and went into the Marines, Navy and Air Force.

By Paul

August 3, 2007 12:25 PM | Link to this

Goldie

Last post, what I meant was, regardless of Sen Obama’s smarts, Hillary’s campaign war chest could trump all. Comments were on effect of large amounts of money on the process.

Dusty

That was my opinion. Based upon my life experiences, where I was, what I saw. I didn’t see “cowardice” with many - just disgust with the war, our leaders (I’ve written about Nixon’s “secret plan” - took a few years to realize there wasn’t one)and an unwillingness to die for a lost cause.

That’s another reason I prefer a volunteer force, professional cadre, no draft.

I do not equate Vietnam with Iran - even in the opposition arena. I think there are too many dissimilarities. Your “President and Congress” made me smile - kinda seems like the last campaign cycle maybe some Dems took a page from Nixon’s secret plan book? :)

Thanks for a civil discussion.

By Goldie

August 3, 2007 12:27 PM | Link to this

The citizens of Minneapolis are preparing for the photo-op that will be Bush’s arrival this weekend:

One wonders whether Norm Coleman and Tim Pawlenty will stand shoulder to shoulder with George W. Bush. What a Kodak moment — three tax fighting, cost-cutting musketeers in shirtsleeves, at the edge of the precipice, silhouetted against the blue Midwestern sky…— One for all and every man for himself.

The one thing Bush knows how to do is his photo-ops!

By IN THE NEWS

August 3, 2007 12:40 PM | Link to this

Are the Dead From the Minneapolis Bridge Collapse Victims of Conservative Ideology?

By IN THE NEWS

August 3, 2007 12:46 PM | Link to this

Court: FBI violated Constitution during raid Agency ordered to return some items seized from Rep. Jefferson’s office

MY PERSONAL OPINION?

JEFFERSON MUST BE INVESTIGATED AND SENT TO TRIAL

MORE INCOMPENTENCE ON THE PART OF THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT

By Hillary's cleavage

August 3, 2007 12:52 PM | Link to this

“Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton on Thursday finally got the Pentagon briefing on how the military is planning to withdraw troops from Iraq — and said much more work needs to be done”

I won.

jiggle, bounce, jiggle.

Bwa.

By The 3% club

August 3, 2007 12:57 PM | Link to this

{{{Just 24% give the president favorable ratings of his performance in handling the war in Iraq, but confidence in Congress is significantly worse – only 3% give Congress positive marks for how it has handled the war. This lack of confidence in Congress cuts across all ideologies. Democrats – some of whom had hoped the now Democrat-led Congress would bring an end to the war in Iraq – expressed overwhelming displeasure with how Congress has handled the war, with 94% giving Congress a negative rating in its handling specifically of that issue}}}

And that entire 3% that views the Democrat Congress favorably lives right here on this blog.

By Goldie

August 3, 2007 1:03 PM | Link to this

{{expressed overwhelming displeasure with how Congress has handled the war,}}

DUH— you forgot to include that the Repugs in Congress are the ones who refuse to “handle” the war in Iraq. You’re the reason that Americans are so frustrated today!

By raisedanidiot

August 3, 2007 1:06 PM | Link to this

Dust ball @12:14 -“I understand NOT wanting to go to war. Only the naive would wish such a catastrophe for so many people.”

How about only the EVIL would wish such a catastrophe for so many people…that’s your daddy your talking about there…he knew what this war would mean, but the almighty dollar was more important to him than thousands upon thousands of Iraqi and American lives…its not naitivity, its EVIL!!

“No, I am not talking about war under dictators like Hitler, Stalin, Saddam, Idi Amin. Those citizens have little choice. We have a choice BEFORE the fact.”

You mean to tell me that you would not blindly support Hitler had you been there in the pre WWII era? I find that incredulous and NAIVE!! You obviously don’t question the Dick tater you follow now…blindly supporting every illegal move he makes. Hitler could have taken some lessons from King George…Hitler was too brazen and quickly exposed himself as the hateful extremist he was…George knows how to duck and cover. All you ever do is post a big Seg Heil (sp?) and cut and run…you nazi freak!

By Duh stands for Democrats

August 3, 2007 1:23 PM | Link to this

Way to go, you foreign policy “geniuses:”

{{{{Pakistan criticized U.S. presidential candidate Barack Obama on Friday for saying that, if elected, he might order military strikes against terrorists hiding in this Islamic country.}}}}

You got any more “brilliant” ideas you’d like to share?

By IN THE NEWS

August 3, 2007 1:25 PM | Link to this

Revise FISA? Trust This White House? Are You Serious?

By Duh's Fear

August 3, 2007 1:37 PM | Link to this

Those bad guys in Pakistan have been hiding bin Laden.

If we talk about going and getting the guy that attacked us, politicians in Pakistan say mean things.

If our President just let’s Bin Laden hang out in a cave in Pakistan, politicians in Pakistan don’t say mean things.

So, ipso facto, con-logic says just let Bin Laden hang out - so the Pakistanis won’t say anymore mean things.

Still Chickenhawk after all these years.

OH! Still chickenhawk after all these years!

By mm

August 3, 2007 1:38 PM | Link to this

Duh,

You are a moron. The Al Qaeda leadership is in Pakistan. But you’re still cheering on the Iraq invasion where Al Qaeda was not even located when the invastion started. THAT is brilliant. But it was ok for Cheney to threaten a strike on Iran. For what?

Speaking of wingnut morons

By getalife

August 3, 2007 1:51 PM | Link to this

That 94% includes the gop blocking, w’s veto and running of the failed occupation.

Its a massive failure of epic proportions.

Elect a Dem President to stop the wasted lives and trillion.

Duh.

By getalife

August 3, 2007 1:56 PM | Link to this

Come on duh.

Be consistent with your war mongering.

Now you are scared of what Pakistan said?

Geez, coward.

By getalife

August 3, 2007 2:37 PM | Link to this

duh is giving us insight on their support in a time of war.

If the gop does it, they are 100% behind it but if a Dem does it, they scream wag the dog and Pakistan is not happy , whaaaaa.

Failed Americans who support their party only in a time of war.

Pathetic and you will see this same bs from dusty.

They want amnesty for OBL and his gang and they bring up 9/11 all the time.

It is amazing hypocrisy but they have no shame.

By Cindy

August 3, 2007 2:38 PM | Link to this

Mike, Thanks so much for the laugh! This is a great cartoon.

By Question Suggestion

August 3, 2007 2:40 PM | Link to this

For Republican You Tube Debate

If President Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney or Attorney General Alberto Gonzales are convicted of a crime, will you pardon them or commute their sentence?

By Goldie

August 3, 2007 2:59 PM | Link to this

DUH only knows how to post the same ole Neo-con propaganda, such as claiming that Sen. Obama wants “military strikes” for Pakistan. Apparently taking “action” is the very same thing as “military strikes”, according to their non-logic… Similar to that ole guilty husband who always accuses his wife of cheating on him — now what’s that called?

Oh yeah, I think it’s called misplaced guilt.

By Billiam the snowman

August 3, 2007 2:59 PM | Link to this

Another question:

Why are you scared of me?

By Goldie

August 3, 2007 3:21 PM | Link to this

Barack Obama was right; the conventional wisdom was wrong. And today, we see the consequences. Iraq is in chaos. According to the National Intelligence Estimate, the threat to our homeland from terrorist groups is “persistent and evolving.” Al-Qaeda has a safe-haven in Pakistan. Iran has only grown stronger and bolder. The American people are less safe because of a rash war.

By Duh stands for Democrats

August 3, 2007 3:25 PM | Link to this

{{{{By mm August 3, 2007 1:38 PM Duh, You are a moron. The Al Qaeda leadership is in Pakistan. But you’re still cheering on the Iraq invasion where Al Qaeda was not even located when the invastion started. THAT is brilliant. But it was ok for Cheney to threaten a strike on Iran. For what?}}}}

Huh, we kill Al Qaeda leadership and suicide bombers every day in Iraq and you libs haven’t stopped whining since we crossed the border in 2003.

Now you want to invade a nuclear power that has a 39,000,000 man army?

That’s rather silly.

Well, then again, I guess when they retaliate with their atom bombs it will give us good reason to destroy the whole entire Middle East with ours.

Good thinking, Neocons.

By N-GA

August 3, 2007 3:26 PM | Link to this

Paul,

I have first hand experience with the draft during the Viet Nam War.

Initially there were 3 primary deferments: in school, married, or medically unable to serve. There were other classes of deferments related to critical jobs, conscientious objectors, etc. If you registered and had a deferment (e.g. - in school), then finished school or failed to meet the SSS requirements for a student deferment, then you were automatically reassigned to 1-A. You were not allowed a second deferment (e.g. - married). I know because that is exactly what happened to me.

The lottery system was implemented in mid-1969. I was already in basic. U.S. miltary deaths for those years:

1968 - 16,511

1969 - 11,527

1970 - 6,065

1971 - 2,348

1972 - 561

You are correct in that initially draft resisters were viewed as cowards, but were later viewed as political protesters. Not all went to Canada. Some went underground (USA) and others to Sweden or other countries. However not much is said about in country deserters, those who for whatever reason fled their units to hide in Viet Nam, Thailand, Cambodia, etc. Maybe they saw too much. Each one has his own story. Sad that it happened…glad that it’s over.

By Duh's Fear

August 3, 2007 3:33 PM | Link to this

See Bin Laden

See Bin Laden hide in a cave.

Hide Bin Laden hide.

See Duh.

See Duh run from truth.

Run Duh Run

See Barrack

See Barrack say take action.

Action Barrack Action

See Duh

Duh no understand action

Duh thinks action means invade

Duh thinks Iraq is enemy.

Iraq no attack USA

No Iraq No Attack

See Pakistan

Pakistan hiding Bin Laden

See Duh tremble

Tremble Duh Tremble

By getalife

August 3, 2007 3:39 PM | Link to this

Nobody is talking about invading duh.

Here is some Dem energy policies

By rushncap

August 3, 2007 3:46 PM | Link to this

N-GA: I obviously have no experience with draft-dodging. But I do know one thing: one of the primary reasons my parents packed up and moved to America is the draft. In Russia it is mandatory. After seeing what my older brother went through in the Russian army, my mom basically said “My other son is NOT going through that”. She spent 2 years on pins and needles wondering whether he would get shipped off to Afghanistan (he thankfully never did). I personally would have no problem dodging the draft for a war that I strongly felt was wrong and did not entail defense of our country from imminent danger.

By Paul

August 3, 2007 3:57 PM | Link to this

N-GA

Thanks for the expansion on the concept. My brother in law signed up for the Navy, knowing his college deferment would run out. I remember (vividly) registering for the draft. It was viewed as “citizen duty.” Then the lottery - no deferments - your expansion is a good illustration of how a “universal” system becomes a “universal for those who can’t get an exemption” system.

Back then Bush would have been considered lucky - Air Guard slot and he got to fly fighters. Kerry woulda been viewed as nuts (Volunteer? Navy? And he asked for patrol boat duty in Vietnam? He’s gotta be nuts!!!). Notice “patriotism” or “cowardice” weren’t mentioned - I do not recall that’s how it was looked at, then.

I think I’ll always remember “36.&