Mike Luckovich

By George

April 6, 2006 11:48 PM | Link to this

Good one ML and sooooo true.

By RW-(the original)

April 7, 2006 12:44 AM | Link to this

She even brings her own thugs.

“I’m going to put your a-ss in jail”

I guess she has her very own jail too.

By candide

April 7, 2006 05:23 AM | Link to this

Yes, McKinney has played the race card. From whom did she learn it? From generations of white southerners.

By Little Pinko Angels, So Innocent, So Sweet

April 7, 2006 05:36 AM | Link to this

Generations of White Southerners? Really?

Whatever.

My hope for this situation: That everyone sees the race card for what it is and from now on we stop using a person’s color against them and the using it against others. Like I thought we were supposed to be doing by now.

By Little Pinko Angels, So Innocent, So Sweet

April 7, 2006 06:12 AM | Link to this

Believe me, If the AJC isn’t calling this guy a Republican, that means that he is a pinko:

Official caught in sex sting had earlier troubles Spencer S. Hsu - Washington Post Friday, April 7, 2006

You have to be able to understand “news” speak from the libs, for instance, the Presidential prerogative to communicate to the public justification for military action is called a “leak” by the pinkos.

Also, a belligerent gathering of race card operators during which they threaten members of the audience with violence is an “apology.”

And finally, when the “news” papers ombudsmen says that reporters are careful to keep their biases out of the news, that is called a “lie.”

And you slack jawed, beady eyed, uneducated, drooling liberals in Atlanta are just beside yourselves with joy to be fed this rubbish. That’s why it keeps getting ladled out to the rest of us.

By Little Pinko Angels, So Innocent, So Sweet

April 7, 2006 06:19 AM | Link to this

Krauthammer nails it:

Those who think employer sanctions will control immigration are dreaming. Employer sanctions were the heart of Simpson-Mazzoli. They are not only useless; they are pernicious. They turn employers into enforcers of border control. That is the job of government, not landscapers.

Build a barrier. It is simply ridiculous to say it cannot be done. If one fence won’t do it, then build a second 100 yards behind it. And then build a road for patrols in between. Put in cameras. Put in sensors. Put out lots of patrols. Of course, no barrier will be foolproof. But it doesn’t have to be. It simply has to reduce the river of illegals to a manageable trickle. Once we can do that, everything becomes possible — most especially, humanizing the situation of our 11 million illegals.

By spankmonkey

April 7, 2006 07:02 AM | Link to this

No call from the temp agancy again today? Good thing this forum is here so you have something to do all day, like whine about how much liberals suck. God forbid you actually have a job or do something to clean up the culture of corruption within your own party. No lets just cut and paste from other people’s articles to the Luckovich forum and call liberals names all day… how productive, what a sense of accomplishment you must feel at the end of every day.

By Richard Smith

April 7, 2006 07:13 AM | Link to this

Is there anyway to get McKinney impeached? She is a TOTAL embarrassment to Georgia and the USA. I can’t believe she ever got voted in. God, ignorance abounds.

By candide

April 7, 2006 07:18 AM | Link to this

Bad as McKinney is, she has not sent thousands of American soldiers to their deaths, bombed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis to smithereens, and disgraced the highest office in the land. A disreputable congressperson is nothing new. A disreputable president is a national tragedy.

By Little Pinko Angels, So Innocent, So Sweet

April 7, 2006 07:26 AM | Link to this

Spank You Monkey: Have you ever thought about addressing your posts to someone or are you just going off on the whole world? Have you got an extreme case of pinko paranoia this morning?

By Charles

April 7, 2006 07:37 AM | Link to this

No, Cynthia McKinney did not support sending troops to the Middle East to defend our freedom and way of life here in the United States. All she’s done is receive support from those who who do us harm. In 2000/2001, she got $3,000 from Abdurrahman Alamoudi, founder of the Washington-based American Muslim Council. In October 2003, Alamoudi was arrested and charged with engaging in illegal financial transactions with the Libyan government. Court documents allege he’s given financial backing to Hamas and al Qaeda. He is also cooperating with the FBI regarding his role in a conspiracy, allegedly headed by Libya’s Col. Moammar Khadafy, to murder Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah.

In 2000, she got $1,000 from Sami Al-Arian and $1,000 more from his wife. Al-Arian is the former University of South Florida professor who was indicted last year on charges that he served as North American leader of the terrorist organization Palestinian Islamic Jihad.

McKinney has also accepted substantial donations from individuals linked to the Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development, the Benevolence International Foundation and the Global Relief Foundation — three Muslim “charitable” organizations now labeled Specially Designated Global Terrorist entities by the U.S. Treasury Department.

In my book, she’s also a terrorist.

By @@

April 7, 2006 07:46 AM | Link to this

My understanding is that leadership within the Black Caucus pressured her into apologizing because her ridiculous use of race discrimination for her personal gain was harmful to African Americans with legitimate claims of discrimination.

In my opinion, she should have been made to apologize to African Americans everywhere for her irresponsible behavior and leaders of the Black Caucus should have publicly discredited her.

One nation moving forward for progress.

One “critical” misstep towards positive change.

ml’s views on this issue remain unclear in his cartoon.

By Little Pinko Angels, So Innocent, So Sweet

April 7, 2006 07:58 AM | Link to this

Isn’t the utter failure of our public education system so evident in “Spank Your Monkey’s” 7:02 comments? While I can use a computer, a Nextel and the global economy to run a highly successful business, still having time left over to dog out liberalism, this stunted clod is lashing out at the big imposing world around him, awash in ignorance of financial success, probably his most sought ambition being to score some reparations for being a “victim” or maybe filled with the mathematically and mentally deficient challenge hope of hitting the lottery.

All the while stupidly brimming with the false assurance and belief that their ignorance of the real world somehow makes them superior to everyone else.

What does this all say for the future of the United States?

By kevin

April 7, 2006 08:01 AM | Link to this

The ignorant fools that still support Queen Mckinney are the criminals we see on the news running at high speeds from the police. They are just too stupid to realize when a police officer says for you to stop, you stop!

By The Grinch

April 7, 2006 08:13 AM | Link to this

You can almost see the embarrassment on the faces of the black people I work with every day. McMinney has disgraced all black people.

By @@

April 7, 2006 08:20 AM | Link to this

A sincere apology comes without prompting. A forced apology holds no value in my view.

McKinney’s was a forced apology. I saw no personal sincerity in it.

By Souldrift

April 7, 2006 08:23 AM | Link to this

LPA, “Presidential prerogative to communicate to the public justification for military action is called a “leak” by the pinkos.” When you’re told (as “Scooter” alleges he was) to divulge classified information, secretly, it’s a leak. It’s perhaps an authorized leak, but a leak nonetheless.

Yes, in authorizing it Bush—if the allegation is true—declassified the info. But if he did, it was PURELY FOR POLITICAL PURPOSES. That’s why this is so damaging.

By BIg Bad Elephant (The original)

April 7, 2006 08:24 AM | Link to this

Headline:

Time Mag Employees Defend Pervert’s Porn Propensity

Three people said in separate interviews that, between 1999 and 2001, Doyle viewed pornography on Time’s computers, was caught and faced discipline, and that bureau colleagues circulated a petition or letter in his defense.

By Chuck

April 7, 2006 08:26 AM | Link to this

Let’s see what we have here today. We have Congresswoman McKinney belatedly offering a half-baked apology for her poor conduct and a President who several months ago told us he’d take action against anyone in his administration who “leaked” intelligence information to politically punish someone who disagreed with his administration. Our hope should be that McKinney will lose a re-election bid and that our President would fire himself for making fools of 245 million Americans. He has done more damage to Republicans than McKinney has done to Democrats.

By Conservatives Molest America's Children

April 7, 2006 08:33 AM | Link to this

“While I can use a computer, a Nextel and the global economy to run a highly successful business, still having time left over to dog out liberalism.” What’s the business? What’s the name of your business? Would it talke a hit if your clients were aware of your political leanings? you seem to bne the first CEO I’m aware of that takes so much time out of his day to focus on shining in a venue read by so few people.

By Republican Fiscal Values

April 7, 2006 08:41 AM | Link to this

Bush, GOP Approval Ratings Find New Lows

Just 30 percent of the public approves of the GOP-led Congress’ job performance, and Republicans seem to be shouldering the blame.

“These numbers are scary. We’ve lost every advantage we’ve ever had,” GOP pollster Tony Fabrizio said. “The good news is Democrats don’t have much of a plan. The bad news is they may not need one.”

By Allen Sanileg

April 7, 2006 08:42 AM | Link to this

I am not a fan of Ms McKinney but this latest rap of her “bodyguard” saying to a reporter I’ll put your @ss in jail has been misquoted. I have listened to the video and he says “I’ll put your @ss in jail if you push me again.” When the whole quote is stated it puts a different spin on the whole matter. It shows a reporter pushing someone out of the way to get at the person he is protecting. It does make a defference.

By skipper

April 7, 2006 08:43 AM | Link to this

As a black male I felt insulted by the actions of Ms. Mckinney. I agree there are alot of problems but everything is not because of race. She could have avoided this situation.

By Little Pinko Angels, So Innocent, So Sweet

April 7, 2006 08:44 AM | Link to this

By Little Pinko Angels, So Innocent, So Sweet

April 7, 2006 08:47 AM | Link to this

By Souldrift April 7, 2006 08:23 AM It’s perhaps an authorized leak, but a leak nonetheless. But if he did, it was PURELY FOR POLITICAL PURPOSES. That’s why this is so damaging.

Bush authorized the release of this information, which is his prerogative as commander in chief, to protect the United States of America.

The degenerate wasted liberals see this as, not as a national security issue, but from a how much can it damage Bush standpoint.

So who do you trust?

Releasing intelligence to counter those who called the claims into question damages who?

By Little Pinko Angels, So Innocent, So Sweet

April 7, 2006 08:49 AM | Link to this

By Conservatives Molest America’s Children April 7, 2006 08:33 AM What’s the business? What’s the name of your business? Would it talke a hit if your clients were aware of your political leanings? you seem to bne the first CEO I’m aware of that takes so much time out of his day to focus on shining in a venue read by so few people. Waaaaahhhhhhhh!!! WWaaaaaahhhhhhh!!! I’m holding my breath! WWaaaaahhhhh!!

By @@

April 7, 2006 08:53 AM | Link to this

In an attempt to stay focused on the cartoon and its’ subject matter, why does ml depict Cynthia as bigger than the capitol security officers?

Also, hands are difficult to draw for even the most accomplished artist. Cynthia’s aren’t looking too good in this cartoon. But then it is a cartoon.

Just looking it over!!!

By Little Pinko Angels, So Innocent, So Sweet

April 7, 2006 08:54 AM | Link to this

By Conservatives Molest America’s Children April 7, 2006 08:33 AM

Isn’t this some sh-it? I got this clown stalking me all through the world wide web, obsessed with my every move, wondering why it is I post to this board.

Maybe because I like to screw with the simple, vacant minds of liberals like you, getting them to follow my every move in some bizarre cult, posting things about me instead of the political issues at hand?

You reckon?

By Cosmo

April 7, 2006 08:56 AM | Link to this

To Allen Sanileg - you obviously haven’t seen the video. I saw it this morning on the news. The guard shoved the microphone away and then it looked as if the report tripped or stumbled and bumped into the guard then the guard shoved him (a couple of times actually). Also the report said that McKinney’s guard said he was a police officer - which is a felony if he is not!!!!

By BIg Bad Elephant (The original)

April 7, 2006 08:57 AM | Link to this

Spankmonkey is a wanker!

Now watch him complain that I, a NAZIneo-conracisthomophobefascistwingnut defined the name that he CHOOSES to log in with.

Whine Whine. Wank Wank.

By JW

April 7, 2006 08:58 AM | Link to this

McKinney aplogized for one reason and one reason only, she had zero support from her fellow Congress men and women and none from the Black Politcal Causus. She did not apologize from the heart, just from the mouth. The Democrats could have had a field day with the Delay resignation and the Libby statement but instead all they could do was field questions in regards to if they or do or do not support McKinney, she let the wind out of their sails. The same with the Black Polictical Causus who had to cancel two events for the same reason, they knew all the questions would be about her. She is a libility for both now. I am from her district, she does not now nor has she ever represented me. She is a divisive and dangerous thug, thats all she is, a ghetto thug, Queen of Thugs. This will make her popular with some of her district, but something tells me most of her supporters are felons and they can’t vote. What type person would support such a racist big mouthed law breaking idiot? Okay, maybe a few guys sporting a gold grill in the mouth, a do rag and a pitt bull on a chain.

By BIg Bad Elephant (The original)

April 7, 2006 08:59 AM | Link to this

CMOC,

You first dude. What do YOU do that gives you so much free time?

What a bunch of hypocrite wankers.

By BIg Bad Elephant (The original)

April 7, 2006 09:02 AM | Link to this

Now for some important news:

Saddam Ordered Suicide Attacks on U.S. Targets

By Tom

April 7, 2006 09:05 AM | Link to this

Well done, Mike.

By DavidU

April 7, 2006 09:05 AM | Link to this

@@- It’s a perspective drawing, McKinney is in the forefront so she is bigger while the rest of the objects appear to get smaller and closer together, the further away they are from her.

The hands thing, I have no idea. ML wanted her to look like Wolverine??

By Little Pinko Angels, So Innocent, So Sweet

April 7, 2006 09:14 AM | Link to this

Today the world is discussing why there was no plan for reconstruction. But such criticisms should be honest: Could anyone have imagined back then that the enemies of the new Iraq would blow themselves up in marketplaces, in front of schools, at funerals — almost anywhere — killing dozens, along with themselves, each time? Could anyone have expected that people transporting flour would have their heads cut off on live television? Could anyone have expected that Baghdad’s water supply would be attacked on a daily basis? Or that the wives of policemen and military personnel would be raped and afterwards butchered?

That’s who the liberals are cheering for, giving them free advertising on TV and editorialising in their favor. Be proud of yourself, pinko.

There is a major difference between Iraq before April 9, 2003, and Iraq today — now there is hope, there is the determination to win this war. We continue to believe in this new Iraq because we know that, despite the problems, Iraq is developing, and that despite the madness, there is progress. The Iraqi people are beginning to understand that they have rights in the new Iraq, and they are starting to demand them as well. They understand that they are no longer slaves to political powers, but that politicians are supposed to serve them.

By Conservatives Molest America's Children

April 7, 2006 09:15 AM | Link to this

By Little Pinko Angels, So Innocent, So Sweet April 7, 2006 08:49 AM | Link to this By Conservatives Molest America’s Children April 7, 2006 08:33 AM What’s the business? What’s the name of your business? Would it talke a hit if your clients were aware of your political leanings? you seem to bne the first CEO I’m aware of that takes so much time out of his day to focus on shining in a venue read by so few people. Waaaaahhhhhhhh!!! WWaaaaaahhhhhhh!!! I’m holding my breath! WWaaaaahhhhh!! By BIg Bad Elephant (The original) April 7, 2006 08:59 AM | Link to this CMOC,

You first dude. What do YOU do that gives you so much free time?

What a bunch of hypocrite wankers.

The kink of reasoned responses to simple questions one should expect from the 24/7 posters to this blog, and the reason their audience is so limited .. their egos so inflated.

By getalife

April 7, 2006 09:16 AM | Link to this

Makes you wonder, what else is W lying about?

Probably everthing thing he says and some people still believe him. Maybe it is time to believe in your country and not a liar?

By JW

April 7, 2006 09:17 AM | Link to this

The only piece of law that she has written to make it off her desk is to open up the investigation into the death of Tupac Shakur. As a person from her district facing higher taxes and higher crime, the Tupac thing is the upmost priority in my daily needs, yeah right. That just goes to show who she really represents and her mentality. What she had done and done well is to water down the race card soup, it is not near as strong as it once was, its thin and watery and has no taste now. If Ted Kennedy and Nanci Pelosi does not come out to support a fellow Dem, you’re in trouble. Now here is what to do: Georgia has open primary elections. All Republicans in the 4th District, yes there are some of us, we all need to vote Democrat in the pimary for anyone running against her and then switch to the Republican candidate in the general election. This is how we got rid of that ghetto thug before and it can be done again.

By finch

April 7, 2006 09:20 AM | Link to this

Re: CyMcK’s hands… I haven’t looked at her hands during her TV appearances. Her big mouth gets my attention. Oh, and the hair. Can’t forget the hair.

But is she into long, pimped nails maybe? It’s either that, or DavidU is right. It’s a Wolverine reference.

By @@

April 7, 2006 09:24 AM | Link to this

DavidU:

I’m just playing around. Funny you would use the term “perspective drawing” though. Still, just playing around, but “with you” this time. @—

You can feel good because you made somebody (me) smile early in the morning.

By Little Pinko Angels, So Innocent, So Sweet

April 7, 2006 09:25 AM | Link to this

It is odd that the president’s critics are taking umbrage that this release of declassified material was intended to discredit Wilson. Of course it was. What else could it be? Wilson was defaming the administration by saying that the president was a liar, in particular regarding the claim in the 2003 State of the Union address that Saddam Hussein’s regime was seeking to acquire uranium in Africa. Wilson based this charge on the knowledge he had acquired during his February 2002 mission to Niger. He considered his information dispositive, and went public in July 2003. So the administration chose to fight back with the facts. They really had no other choice.

So if the administration had information in an NIE that demonstrated conclusively that President Bush was not twisting the facts, and declassifying portions of it did not endanger ongoing operations (and how could it, three months after the fall of Baghdad?), then why should it not be declassified and released? The president had the legal authority to do so, either through Executive Order 13292, or the powers inherent in the office (the LBJ standard). So long as protocols were followed, there was no impropriety. Moreover, the motive, to prove Wilson’s charges groundless, was completely legitimate. It was not, as some have charged, a political purpose, it was defending of the integrity of the executive office.

By getalife

April 7, 2006 09:26 AM | Link to this

She is an embarassment like our President.

This is Cynthia’s second toon this week and I am guessing Mike will do one on W lying about the leak today.

By Little Pinko Angels, So Innocent, So Sweet

April 7, 2006 09:28 AM | Link to this

By Conservatives Molest America’s Children April 7, 2006 09:15 AM The kink of reasoned responses to simple questions one should expect from the 24/7 posters to this blog, and the reason their audience is so limited .. their egos so inflated.

As long as we got you hinged on our every move what else matters, duma-ss? You’re a 24/7 groupie of mine.

By getalife

April 7, 2006 09:39 AM | Link to this

Who believes W’s new job numbers?

I loved the way he ducked out quickly after his little speech.

By Huge

April 7, 2006 09:40 AM | Link to this

I was just watching the weather channel and there was a spot about the tornadoes in the midwest recently. And it occurred to me that the weather forecasters, reporters, etc. obviously don’t want the devastation and death caused by these storms but are compelled to report it anyway. Some might question their motives, but none, other than the emotionally void, can argue that they are “pro-tornado”.

I’m sometimes amazed by the self-serving and simple-minded argument of the far, far-right that all liberals hate America. Obviously, to any emotionally secure and enlightened mind, this is absurd. These people scream that because others challenge (often vehemently) our leader’s positions on topics like misguided-wars, terrorism, etc. that they endorse these sicknesses. The argument is basically the same as it was in the 60’s - an indication that those who endorse this position have learned precious little in the ensuing decades - that by protesting the war, we give aid and comfort to the enemy. So let’s see if I get this - if every single American fully supported this “war”, the enemy would get discouraged, fight less viciously and ultimately just give up? Not likely. Not even remotely possible.

Actually, the enemy must be very heartened by the fact that some here now want to impose a similar unyielding, religous totalitarianism. OBL (remember him?) must laugh when he sees these new “American Baathists”. (Just this past month, an ignoramus cop ticketed a woman for having an anti-bush bumper sticker. And yes, those who like this type of thought policing will contend that it was because that it was vulgar; don’t kid yourselves…)

This particular breed of American is what I call the new “faketriots”. They put little bumper stickers on their car that say “support the troops”, but are in no way willing, nor have ever been willing, to actually do anything to protect this country. (There are many on the far far-left who fit into this same category). Their only excercise in democracy is voting, and it is usually for those who are the champions of getting other people’s kids heads blown off. All the while they wave the red, white and blue, pound their chests and tell everyone what great Americans they are. They care nothing about Jefferson’s brilliant observations that “Dissent is the highest form of patriotism” and “All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.” I will not remain silent. Not now. Not ever. And this infuriates the pious.

Yet it persists. I remember when O’Reilly said that once the bombs start falling on Baghdad, that people who protest against it are un-American. The next night he made a subtle distinction, and said that he was wrong in calling those people un-American; they were just bad Americans. A class guy, to be sure. And a mental giant.

Even so, in some ways liberals are more willing to put their money where their mouths are than their right-wing counterparts. How else can one explain the enormous disparity between the left and right on who have served in the military/combat and those who avoided this unpleasant proposition. I chose to serve.

For a real eye-opener read this: http://www.awolbush.com/whoserved.html

Here in Georgia, for example, the disgraceful Saxby Chambliss shamefully attacked Max Cleland’s patriotism and support for the military, based on his voting record. Only one word comes to mind - cowardly. I for one, am embarrassed to have this man represent me in the US Senate. (Equally embarrassing in my representative - Cynthia McKinney). I guess the only good thing about that story, is that I sure wouldn’t have wanted the likes of either of them serving with me or fighting on enemy soil.

Our commander-in-chief’s military record is now well-documented and is spotty at best and downright suspicious, at worst. Yet he has legions of supporters who attacked his opponent, in the most despicable fashion. A man who was a combat veteran and put his life on the line to back up his patriotism. While at the very same time, the president basically disappeared in Alabama to stump for some political hack. And even a now GOP senator who was a POW for many years at the Hanoi Hilton, a man of incredible courage and valor, was not immune from these nauseating attacks by Bush’s (I mean Rove’s) political hatred machine.

Speaking of hatred, now will begin the flamings of those who disagree. There will be several of the usual venom merchants here that hurl the most foul and childish insults, at me personally. Perhaps, I’m wrong, but I expect little more than accusations and attacks from these “faketriots”.

Is it no wonder our leaders represent us as they do?

By J. Carville

April 7, 2006 09:40 AM | Link to this

By Little Pinko Angels, So Innocent, So Sweet

April 7, 2006 06:12 AM | Link to this

You have to be able to understand “news” speak from the libs, for instance, the Presidential prerogative to communicate to the public justification for military action is called a “leak” by the pinkos.

Interesting spin LPSISO. It would seem that if the president wanted to use his “prerogative” to “communicate to the publicjustification for military action” he would do it in the normal way. I.E. go on T.V. and talk directly to the American people.

It is obvious that the president wanted to use the New York Times, which is considered a liberal rag, to build his case for war. After all, if the Times goes for it and prints it, it must be true. To go on national T.V. and present it to the American people would have opened the door for way to many questions and too much scrutiny. Nice try though LPSISO.

By Little Pinko Angels, So Innocent, So Sweet

April 7, 2006 09:52 AM | Link to this

getalife: A quick refresher- 46% of the people of the United States hate George Bush and this will never change, rest assured they will engrave their tombstones with “Bush Sucks.” At the same time, 54% of Americans will never vote for a democrat, never “make love” to another man, never cheer for suicide terrorist bombers. This means that the 46% number is constant.

What does change is the 54% Conservative base and this is contingent upon Bush’s job performance. Right now, he is openly pandering to the amnesty crowd, this is causing great consternation among the solid Conservatives, thus the drop in his ratings. Example: 46% still hate Bush, 38% still love him and 16% are disappointed with his performance.

The 16% are not going to go in with the perverts come November, not even a chance.

What you are all excited about is an internal Republican issue, a squabble that means nothing at the end of the day.

By RW-(the original)

April 7, 2006 09:57 AM | Link to this

Huge,

Maybe you should stop watching the weather channel, it seems to cause you to repeat yourself.

By Little Pinko Angels, So Innocent, So Sweet

April 7, 2006 10:02 AM | Link to this

Yes, the 63% of the country that now say they prefer Democrats to Republicans to run congress means nothing. It’s just logical to think that they’ll vote for incumbent Republicans come November. Think, you pinko dumba-ss.

By Little Pinko Angels, So Innocent, So Sweet

April 7, 2006 10:04 AM | Link to this

RW,

Maybe you should get back to browsing the internet for porn.

By RW-(the original)

April 7, 2006 10:09 AM | Link to this

The wankers really hate it when you expose them for the fools they are. It’s also incredible how obsessed they are with Andy’s names. Like some neon moonbat beacon in the sky they flock to all things Andy.

By Little Pinko Angels, So Innocent, So Sweet

April 7, 2006 10:12 AM | Link to this

You liberals stop harasing me about not working! I run a sucessful internet business! I do! Buying comic books on ebay all day and then selling them back is important stuff! That’s how RW became a thousandaire! One day I may even go back to my job as a mall security guard, if they don’t do a background check.

By @@

April 7, 2006 10:13 AM | Link to this

R.W.:

Who is Ryan B. at Nicole’s place? He doesn’t seem to like my playful nature. I’m trying to figure out if I should be offended or not. NOT

I know you said the Blak-Coke thread was just about played out, but “all to serious” Ryan B. is still posting there as well as “fun-loving” Nicole so I still drop in occasionally. Count is 180 at this point.

By Big Bad Elephant (The original)

April 7, 2006 10:14 AM | Link to this

CMAC,

Why are you crying?

By Little Pinko Angels, So Innocent, So Sweet

April 7, 2006 10:16 AM | Link to this

By J. Carville April 7, 2006 09:40 AM

Well, actually, The New York Times started the whole sordid affair by giving voice to Joe Wilson, trying to discredit Bush with their usual stupid anti American lies. Bush gave the information to the same people creating the disinformation.

This is interesting, I could have sworn I read hundreds of pinko editorials about how secrecy is bad and those who leak information are good. Is “Deep Throat” no longer a liberal legend?? What has happened to change your opinion about this?

By getalife

April 7, 2006 10:16 AM | Link to this

Nice spin Andy.

I am too, Mr. Taylor

I believe the the neocon movement is just like my bowel movement, flushed down the toilet like it should be.

By RW- (the original)

April 7, 2006 10:18 AM | Link to this

Fools! All of them, fools. Only our plan to purify America through the white race and by “eliminating” homosexuals has real intelligence behind it. We, through our wonderful, majestic, and intelligent George W. Bush (not to mention supremely eloquent) have already begun to spread our master plan throughout the world, by warring on the beige people in the middle east. First Iraq, then Iran, then Syria, then all the world! White, Christian, Blonde, Men! Yes! AHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

By Big Bad Elephant (The original)

April 7, 2006 10:19 AM | Link to this

RW,

Do you think that “Huge” is trying to tell us how well-endowed he is?

I think I’ll just call him “Big Pri*ck” to show him how impressed I am with his cyber image.

By Little Pinko Angels, So Innocent, So Sweet

April 7, 2006 10:25 AM | Link to this

getalife: You know Bush told the crowd to be quite so that the guy in your link could speak his mind. Right there, Bush showed the whole world how much more of an adult he is then all of liberalism put together.

I’ll even wager that the guy will vote Republican in November because we listen to people with out having to shout them down. Most people don’t want to spend their whole life being illiterate.

By ncgreybr

April 7, 2006 10:25 AM | Link to this

Mike, If you EVER hit one on the head, it’s this one! Stop drawing now, you’ll never get better than this (no matter how much fodder Bush gives you!)

By Big Bad Elephant (the original)

April 7, 2006 10:26 AM | Link to this

RW,

Don’t tell them of our plan. It is not yet ready to be revealed. The Ronald Reagan alien prophesied to me last night as I stroked my Glock regarding the truth that is so overwhelming in our party right now. He told me to continue having faith that GW and Karl Rove are speaking the Lord’s gospel with every breath. They shall never lie and do their work on His behalf. Amen.

By Tom Turner

April 7, 2006 10:26 AM | Link to this

Like so many in Washington, Ms. McKinney and her entourage have gotten too big for their britches. It’s nice to be important, but it’s much more important to be nice.

By Little Pinko Angels, So Innocent, So Sweet

April 7, 2006 10:27 AM | Link to this

And this “leak” wasn’t a leak in any case. A “leak” is the unauthorized release of government information. The leak of classified information is a crime. But according to Scooter Libby, the former chief of staff to the vice president who gave the information from the NIE to a reporter, he only released it because he was authorized to do so by the president himself.

Constitutionally, the authority to declare documents “classified” resides with the president. So, under the terms of an executive order first drafted in 1982, he can declassify a document merely by declaring it unclassified.

By RW-(the original)

April 7, 2006 10:28 AM | Link to this

Big Bad Elephant (The original),

He also bolds the word “enormous” so I think it is very benevolent of you not to point out his shortcomings.

By Leon

April 7, 2006 10:30 AM | Link to this

She is an embarrassment to Georgia, Dekalb County, and African Americans period. I can’t believe my fellow voters keep putting her in office. People like her is a disgrace to my race. You don’t see fellow minorities (hispanic, asian) crying “racism” everytime something goes wrong.

By A from ATL

April 7, 2006 10:33 AM | Link to this

Great cartoon From M Luckovich! Cynthia should be ashamed of herself for even considering this a race issue. When her milk goes sour, she probably blames it on race. She really is an embarassment to Georgia.

By Little Pinko Angels, So Innocent, So Sweet

April 7, 2006 10:35 AM | Link to this

Yes, it is entirely appropriate that the president secretly “declassify” and disseminate false information. Forget that declassification is normally accompanied by documentation. That’s the only way to do battle with the media. Everyone knows it’s unAmerican to print stories that do not praise our glorious leader with every breath. The president should be in constant battle with the free press. The fact that the document was false, completely full of lies, is fair game as well. If a president wants to go to war, he has the right to do that wherever and whenever he wants to, and if he has to knowing, willingly, and surrepticiously spread lies, well then that’s the moral thing to do. I can’t believe you pinko liberals don’t see that.

By Chuck

April 7, 2006 10:41 AM | Link to this

To: Little Pinko Angels, So Sensitive, So Sweet

Explain again why you think it was okay for W to lie to the American public about what he’d do to anyone in his administration reponsible for “leaking” classified intelligence. If he was well within his rights to do it, why lie about it? Would you like to work for W or Cheney and end up getting indicted for protecting them, like Skipper Libby? Is that how W and Cheney would define integrity and honor? Republicans are going to take a major beating over this kind of leadership during the midterm elections.

By Little Pinko Angels, So Innocent, So Sweet

April 7, 2006 10:42 AM | Link to this

I make fun of other people being illiterate (10:25) but I can’t spell “quiet” (quite), don’t know the difference between “then” and “than,” and think “without” is two words. My reasoning skills are also extremely advanced because it’s completely logical that someone who said he’s never been more embarrassed of his country’s leadership would vote for that same leadership in 7 months. I am brilliant! I am brilliant!

By RW-(the original)

April 7, 2006 10:46 AM | Link to this

@@,

I just went over there and looked. RyanB appears to be what BBE (T o) @ 10:19 described “huge” as.

By Chuck

April 7, 2006 10:48 AM | Link to this

To: Little Pinko Angels, So Innocent, So Sweet

You need to be in therapy!

By Big Bad Elephant (the original)

April 7, 2006 10:49 AM | Link to this

I am obssessed with pen!ses- I love well-endowed wankers, prefer pr!cks, am delighted with d!cks, motivated by members, plea for packages, desire d0ngs, crave c0ck, maybe even meat. It’s been so long since I had any of those it’s all I think about.

By Little Pinko Angels, So Innocent, So Sweet

April 7, 2006 10:51 AM | Link to this

Chuch,

Yes, it is entirely appropriate that the president secretly “declassify” and disseminate false information. Forget that declassification is normally accompanied by documentation. That’s the only way to do battle with the media. Everyone knows it’s unAmerican to print stories that do not praise our glorious leader with every breath. The president should be in constant battle with the free press. The fact that the document was false, completely full of lies, is fair game as well. If a president wants to go to war, he has the right to do that wherever and whenever he wants to, and if he has to knowingly, willingly, and surrepticiously spread lies, well then that’s the moral thing to do. I can’t believe you pinko liberals don’t see that.

By ncgreybr

April 7, 2006 10:52 AM | Link to this

“Huge”…you are appropriately named. Even better might be “Huge Minded”. Your opinion earlier (the long one about tornados etc.) is right on the mark. You are able to espress yourself without resorting to the usual blather and name calling of the typical “left” wing writers. As I have said before, if Bush were caught on camera screwing a dead teenage boy on the White House lawn, most of his blind supporters would blame the dead boy for laying there in a provocative manner and leading Bush on and then blame the “liberal” (read: true) press for reporting it.

By Little Pinko Angels, So Innocent, So Sweet

April 7, 2006 11:02 AM | Link to this

Chuck: When Bush said what he did about the leakers it was specifically directed at the Valerie Plame “leak.” You can writhe around all you want in self righteous indignation, where is your concern for Joe Wilson lying about a critical national security issue for the sole purpose of politically harming the president?

I guess you must be new to this board, just because a post comes under my or another persons name doesn’t mean that we put it up. I noticed that you can see the difference between what is real and what is fake by your 10:48 post, I’m as-suming the fake poster is the one who really needs therapy.

Don’t ask me why this needs to happen like this. Maybe this name jacker really gets a good giggle all to themselves, maybe they are mentally retarded, who really knows but them? There are some seriously weird people in the world, this is one of them.

By BBE (the one and only)

April 7, 2006 11:02 AM | Link to this

Ladies and gentlemen,

(oops sorry, I don’t know if I can say that). Let me rephrase it -

People,

We now have what amounts to zero tolerance for moms and dads. However, if this bill passes, then California schools will not be able to teach these books -

Heather has Two Mommies or Daddy’s Roomate

What a dilemna. Maybe spankmonkey or Big Pri#ck have some ideas how to resolve this liberal conundrum.

By Disillusioned Republican

April 7, 2006 11:07 AM | Link to this

I’ll take a thousand national embarrassments like McKinney over one global embarrassmant like Bush any day!

By BushScandals

April 7, 2006 11:07 AM | Link to this

Memogate: The Senate Computer Theft

The scandal: From 2001 to 2003, Republican staffers on the Senate Judiciary Committee illicitly accessed nearly 5,000 computer files containing confidential Democratic strategy memos about President Bush’s judicial nominees. The GOP used the memos to shape their own plans and leaked some to the media.

The problem: The Computer Fraud and Abuse Act states it is illegal to obtain confidential information from a government computer.

The outcome: Unresolved. The Justice Department has assigned a prosecutor to the case. The staff member at the heart of the matter, Manuel Miranda, has attempted to brazen it out, filing suit in September 2004 against the DOJ to end the investigation. “A grand jury will indict a ham sandwich,” Miranda complained. Some jokes just write themselves.

By Eric

April 7, 2006 11:07 AM | Link to this

The stupidity of the Georgia voters who repeatedly send McKinney back to Washington is beginning to rival the stupidity of voters in Mass. who send Ted Kennedy back or W. VA sending Byrd back or S.C. who sent Strom Thurmond back over and over, or N.C. who sent Helms back.

The voters are to blame for sending these idiots back over and over and over. We reap what we sow. We deserve what we have for representatives.

By RW- (the original)

April 7, 2006 11:09 AM | Link to this

New polls are in. GW has his lowest approval rating ever in the AP-Ipsos poll, his numbers are down 12 points among Republicans, and those numbers aren’t even impacted yet by yesterday’s revelation that Bush himself leaked classified documentation to the press and then said he would fire anyone in his administration who was involved in a leak. Oh, and the GOP-lead congress has an approval rating of 30% and Deemocrats are now favored in every category.

By dick wooley

April 7, 2006 11:09 AM | Link to this

George W. Bush VS Bill Clinton - Impeachment 10 to 1

Case for Impeachment of George W. Bush

Case for Impeachment of Bill Clinton

PS. Sadly, the Republicans, in their religious, witch-hunt, zealotry brought the US government to a halt for nine months and spent $100 million taxpayer dollars to uncover the secret of Bill’s BJ.

By BushScandals

April 7, 2006 11:11 AM | Link to this

Doctor Detroit: The DOJ’s Bungled Terrorism Case

The scandal: The Department of Justice completely botched the nation’s first post-9/11 terrorism trial, as seen when the convictions of three Detroit men allegedly linked to al-Qaida were overturned in September 2004. Former Attorney General John Ashcroft had claimed their June 2003 sentencing sent “a clear message” that the government would “detect, disrupt and dismantle the activities of terrorist cells.”

The problem: The DOJ’s lead prosecutor in the case, Richard Convertino, withheld key information from the defense and distorted supposed pieces of evidence - like a Las Vegas vacation video purported to be a surveillance tape. But that’s not the half of it. Convertino says he was unfairly scapegoated because he testified before the Senate, against DOJ wishes, about terrorist financing. Justice’s reconsideration of the case began soon thereafter. Convertino has since sued the DOJ, which has also placed him under investigation.

The outcome: Let’s see: Overturned convictions, lawsuits and feuding about a Kafkaesque case. Nobody looks good here.

By BushScandals

April 7, 2006 11:12 AM | Link to this

Dark Matter: The Energy Task Force

The scandal: A lawsuit has claimed it is illegal for Dick Cheney to keep the composition of his 2001 energy-policy task force secret. What’s the big deal? The New Yorker’s Jane Mayer has suggested an explosive aspect of the story, citing a National Security Council memo from February 2001, which “directed the N.S.C. staff to cooperate fully with the Energy Task Force as it considered the ‘melding’ of … ‘operational policies towards rogue states,’ such as Iraq, and ‘actions regarding the capture of new and existing oil and gas fields.’” In short, the task force’s activities could shed light on the administration’s pre-9/11 Iraq aims.

The problem: The Federal Advisory Committee Act says the government must disclose the work of groups that include non-federal employees; the suit claims energy industry executives were effectively task force members. Oh, and the Bush administration has portrayed the Iraq war as a response to 9/11, not something it was already considering.

The outcome: Unresolved. In June 2004, the U.S. Supreme Court sent the case back to an appellate court.

By BushScandals

April 7, 2006 11:13 AM | Link to this

The Indian Gaming Scandal

The scandal: Potential influence peddling to the tune of $82 million, for starters. Jack Abramoff, a GOP lobbyist and major Bush fundraiser, and Michael Scanlon, a former aide to Rep. Tom DeLay (R-Texas), received that amount from several Indian tribes, while offering access to lawmakers. For instance, Texas’ Tigua tribe, which wanted its closed El Paso casino reopened, gave millions to the pair and $33,000 to Rep. Robert Ney (R-Ohio) in hopes of favorable legislation (Ney came up empty). And get this: The Tiguas were unaware that Abramoff, Scanlon and conservative activist Ralph Reed had earned millions lobbying to have the same casino shut in 2002.

The problem: Federal officials want to know if Abramoff and Scanlon provided real services for the $82 million, and if they broke laws while backing candidates in numerous Indian tribe elections.

The outcome: Everybody into the cesspool! The Senate Indian Affairs Committee and five federal agencies, including the FBI, IRS, and Justice Department, are investigating.

By BushScandals

April 7, 2006 11:13 AM | Link to this

Halliburton’s No-Bid Bonanza

The scandal: In February 2003, Halliburton received a five-year, $7 billion no-bid contract for services in Iraq.

The problem: The Army Corps of Engineers’ top contracting officer, Bunnatine Greenhouse, objected to the deal, saying the contract should be the standard one-year length, and that a Halliburton official should not have been present during the discussions.

The outcome: The FBI is investigating. The $7 billion contract was halved and Halliburton won one of the parts in a public bid. For her troubles, Greenhouse has been forced into whistle-blower protection.

By BushScandals

April 7, 2006 11:14 AM | Link to this

Halliburton: Pumping Up Prices

The scandal: In 2003, Halliburton overcharged the army for fuel in Iraq. Specifically, Halliburton’s subsidiary Kellogg, Brown & Root hired a Kuwaiti company, Altanmia, to supply fuel at about twice the going rate, then added a markup, for an overcharge of at least $61 million, according to a December 2003 Pentagon audit.

The problem: That’s not the government’s $61 million, it’s our $61 million.

The outcome: The FBI is investigating.

By Disillusioned Republican

April 7, 2006 11:14 AM | Link to this

Dick - I’m no fan of Clinton but your post is absolutely correct.

By BushScandals

April 7, 2006 11:15 AM | Link to this

Halliburton’s Vanishing Iraq Money

The scandal: In mid-2004, Pentagon auditors determined that $1.8 billion of Halliburton’s charges to the government, about 40 percent of the total, had not been adequately documented.

The problem: That’s not the government’s $1.8 billion, it’s our $1.8 billion.

The outcome: The Defense Contract Audit Agency has “strongly” asked the Army to withhold about $60 million a month from its Halliburton payments until the documentation is provided.

By Little Pinko Angels, So Innocent, So Sweet

April 7, 2006 11:15 AM | Link to this

New polls are in. GW has his lowest approval rating ever in the AP-Ipsos poll, 36% (that’s 64% against). His numbers are down 12 points among Republicans, and those numbers aren’t even impacted yet by yesterday’s revelation that Bush himself leaked classified documentation to the press and then said he would fire anyone in his administration who was involved in a leak. Oh, and the GOP-lead congress has an approval rating of 30% and Democrats are now favored in every category.

By I'm a Wanker, Hear Me Roar

April 7, 2006 11:18 AM | Link to this

[I]t is one of the two best books I’ve read in years about the Democratic Party, its myriad problems and challenges — Charlie Cook, National Journal

[A]n insightful guide to how the Democratic Party can retake power — Peter Beinart, NY Times

Official site :: Amazon :: B&N :: Powell’s :: Chelsea Green

Open Thread by openthread Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:28:26 AM PDT Get it off your chest.

Permalink :: There’s more… (102 comments) Science Friday: Plan B From Outer Space by DarkSyde Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 03:43:51 AM PDT Last night a million microscopic epics went unnoticed. A swarm of tiny, tadpole like cells raced through pitch black, steamy passage ways, guided by molecular cues, in the bodies of a multitude of women the world over. In thousands of cases one lucky sperm found the ova before any of its peers. By now the gametes are beginning to fuse. If all goes well, nine months hence, a child is born.

But in some cases the ensuing pregnancy will not be welcome news. The mother-to-be may be a victim of rape, she may be a minor and/or a victim of incest. She might have a medical condition that makes carrying an infant to term a dicey proposition. Or she may already have eight hungry mouths to feed.

Wouldn’t it be nice if there was a way to stop the pregnancy before it began? Wouldn’t it be swell if the treatments or methods of doing so were affordable and available for even the poorest working mother? And wouldn’t it be downright ideal if, just in case, there was a last ditch plan B to prevent an egg from being fertilized even after sex? There is:

[Wiki] Emergency contraceptive pills (ECPs), are an oral drug containing high doses of the same hormones found in regular oral contraceptive pills, which, when taken after unprotected sexual intercourse, may prevent pregnancy from occurring.

Sadly, there is a party beholden to spaced-out extremists who are hoping to do a great deal to limit access to birth control of any kind. They’ve gone after Plan B Emergency Contraception in a particularly devious way. They’ve conflated it with abortion and torpedoed the recommendations of the FDA and others to make it widely available. Developmental biologist PZ Myers reviews the science in this outstanding post written for the non-scientist (And with pictures!) and flatly concludes:

[Full Text] Plan B is not an abortion. [It] gives women the ability to control, to a limited extent, when they will expel a gamete. In purely reproductive terms, it’s a bit like a male’s ability to control when he will ejaculate, or expel his gametes. That’s it. No fertilized zygotes are involved, so that level of the birth control debate isn’t even relevant. It’s simple, responsible, and safe. You’d have to be insane to object to Plan B.

Well, insane isn’t far off the mark in my view. Mike the Mad Biologist samples just a few instances of the insanity (Update 7:36 AM EDT: Lindsay has more):

[Link] Let’s review: In 2002, the Bush Administration appoints David Hager to the FDA review board that would decide if Plan B would be approved. Nevermind that David Hager is a faith-based lunatic who advocates prayer for menstrual cramp relief. His real claim to fame is …

And they’re just warming up. The ‘base’ constituency of the modern day Republican Party contains loud, powerful elements that want to outlaw all birth control and any information about it. And just in case some of you right-of-center fellas think this only affects women, let me blow a jet of ice-cold reality into that warm, supercilious bubble: the last time there was little or no birth control available in the US, there was also no such thing as genetic paternity testing or court mandated child support based on it. Capiche daddios?

Wouldn’t it be great if there was a political party who would protect and nurture all these possibilities and not be afraid to make them a central pillar in a political platform? Well, there is:

[Link] The bill would prohibit group health plans from excluding contraceptive drugs, devices and outpatient services if they cover the cost of other prescription drugs and outpatient services. It would also require the secretary of health and human services to disseminate information on emergency contraception to healthcare providers and require hospitals receiving federal money to provide emergency contraception to victims of sexual assault.

They’re called Democrats. Register to vote. And vote wisely.

Permalink :: Discuss (73 comments) MT-Sen: The Morrison non-scandal by kos Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 12:49:25 AM PDT I’ve been hearing rumors about some salacious sex scandal featuring Montana State Auditor and Senate candidate John Morrison. Here’s the whole convoluted thing.

I’m no fan of Morrison, supporting Jon Tester instead, but this so-called “scandal” was a real fizzle, especially given the intensity of the rumors the past few months.

So he had an affair. Big deal. On the issue of whether he handled his official duties properly, it appears he did. And really, in situations like these, that’s all that should matter.

Permalink :: Discuss (42 comments) Adam Bonin by kos Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 12:43:51 AM PDT Almost true:

Missed one while I was away: Philly blogger/lawyer Adam C. Bonin saved the Internet from politics.

Not exactly, but he did get a great result in the case before the Federal Election Commission, which was considering regulating political activity on blogs. On March 27, the commission granted a media exemption to bloggers for their election-related activities. Bonin represented A-list bloggers Atrios, Markos Moulitsas Zuniga and Matt Stoller, each of whom testified in D.C.

Bloggers on all sides of the political spectrum squawked that the government threatened to limit free speech and impose limits that writers for MSM outlets escape. Supporters of regulation worried that some blogs were being used to advance political agendas.

I don’t think Adam saved the internet from politics, I think he saved it for politics.

Permalink :: Discuss (27 comments) Open Thread and Diary Rescue by SusanG Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 09:59:58 PM PDT For the night shift, some diaries that scrolled away, deserving of attention:

polydactyl’s Remembering David Bloom (1963-2003), a touching memorial tribute to NBC’s David Bloom, mourning both his passing and the state of investigative journalism today.

General Disarray’s The Coming Renaissance offers a light in the current darkness, a hopeful piece that argues we are on the brink of a new and vigorous era.

8ackgr0und N015e has the second installment of what’s starting to look like a series, “Mything the Point,” examining the unexamined political truisms America seem to accept on faith. Yesterday’s installment was America Is Safer, today’s was Value Voters. If the discussion interests you, please subscribe to the user.

Kelly A H’s Frist’s SMART grants as form of draft? looks deeper into Frist’s SMART “National Security” educational grants and asks some intriguing questions.

Add any overlooked diaries in the comments below, and chat away about anything … anything at all.

Permalink :: Discuss (118 comments) CA-50: Special Election 5 Days Away by mcjoan Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 09:00:04 PM PDT The special election to replace Duke Cunningham is next Tuesday, and things are looking good for Francine Busby. Why else would the NRCC dump $330K into attack ads against her in the district. The DCCC Stakeholder has the text of the ad and Busby’s response.

“This is the last ditched effort of the Delay-Cunningham machine to hold onto power in this district,” said Busby’s Communications Director Brennan Bilberry. “Voters of the 50th District are fed up with their corrupt system and these misleading negative attacks will certainly backfire.”

The NRCC’s claims in the ad that Busby has taken contributions from the employees of government contractors including employees of well-established business like Qualcomm. They also claim that she has taken contributions from Sen. Dennis DeConcini, who, along with John McCain and John Glenn, was admonished by the Senate Ethics Committee.

“If all that Washington special interests can come up with is one contributor out of over 8,000 who was admonished fifteen years ago, they are more desperate than anyone thought,” said Bilberry. “Francine is running to change the system that this group profits from - it is no wonder they are using Duke Cunningham and Tom DeLay’s dirty money to attack Francine.”

This kind of reaction from the NRCC could signal their fear that Busby will win this special election outright on April 11th, without the need for a run-off. Stranger things have happened.

Permalink :: Discuss (44 comments) CTG: Colbert by kos Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 07:59:36 PM PDT I have to say, in all honestly, that Stephen Colbert was one of the warmest people I’ve met in this tour. Sure, I know his schtick is pure satire and all, but I didn’t expect him to be so nice.

I won’t see the segment until someone posts the video online, but I think it went well. And it was quite a friendly audience, several Kossacks shouted encouragement from the stands. That helped calm my nerves.

After travelling all day today, I get back on a plane and head all the way across the country again to start our Northwest segment of the book tour.

The Pacific NW Portal has details of our public events over the weekend in Seattle, Redmond, Olympia and Portland.

Update: Here are pictures from last night’s San Francisco soiree.

Update II: Blogcritics reviews Confessions of a Dittohead, written by our own Advisor Jim. I got to read an early draft of the book so I could blurb it, and I loved it as well.

Permalink :: Discuss (246 comments) IN-9 Poll: Even more hope for Indiana? by ElaineinIN Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 06:07:00 PM PDT (From the diaries. Edited for formatting — kos)

A Garin-Hart-Yang Research Group (D) poll for Baron Hill. 3/23-25. 401 likely voters. MoE 5% (Roll Call, 4/6).

General election matchup

Sodrel (R) 38 Hill (D) 48

Re-elect Sodrel?

Re-elect 33 Someone else 48

Bush approval ratings

Approve 48 Disapprove 43

Now, on the undecided and other— remember that Baron Hill does have a primary challenger in Gretchen Clearwater. She’s doing a pretty good job here in Bloomington—I’ve gotten two mailers and I’ve seen lots of signs and bumperstickers, very few for Baron Hill. Of course, the 9th is a huge district and Bloomington is the most liberal part—I don’t know what Hill or Clearwater are doing in the rest of the district. All I can say is … WHOO HOO!

ElaineinIN’s diary :: Permalink :: Discuss (84 comments) Open Thread by openthread Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 06:03:15 PM PDT Get it off your chest.

Update [2006-4-6 22:50:14 by ct]: More comment bugfix goodness.

Permalink :: There’s more… (233 comments) NSA Scandal Ratchets Up by mcjoan Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 04:57:10 PM PDT SusanG posted earlier GOP frustration on warrantless wiretaps. It’s likely to get a little hotter for the administration now. In Gonzales’s testimony today, he asserted that Bush has the authority to order wiretapping of solely domestic calls.

In response to a question from Rep. Adam Schiff (D-Calif.) during an appearance before the House Judiciary Committee, Gonzales said the government would have to determine if a conversation was related to al-Qaeda and crucial to fighting terrorism before deciding whether to listen in without court supervision.

“I’m not going to rule it out,” Gonzales said, referring to the possibility of monitoring purely domestic communications.

Given what we’ve found out about how this administration works, it’s probably a fair bet that that we should interpret this as “Bush has ordered wiretapping of solely domestic calls.”

He has unapologetically admitted to flouting FISA. He has penned signing statements to legislation stating that he won’t comply with it if he doesn’t want to. He has authorized leaking of classified information for purely political purposes. And now he sends his toady to the Hill to tell Congress he’ll happily violate the Constitution.

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Can anyone still think censure is an unwarranted action?

Permalink :: Discuss (148 comments) Shameless by mcjoan Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:22:07 PM PDT Just a day after Tom DeLay has the chutzpah to threaten filing an ethics complaint against against Cynthia McKinney (yes, right on the heels of his resignation announcement) he sends out his attack dogs to disrupt a Nick Lampson press conference and assault little old ladies. Marsha Rovai, the 70 year-old victim, a retired CPS caseworker, describes the attack.

“I can’t believe my Congressman, Tom DeLay, would organize this type of assault,” Rovai said. “I was assaulted by two different people. One of the men hit me and another shoved his sign into my face, and then when I pushed his sign away he violently pulled my hat down over my eyes and pushed me. I’m considering filing an assault charge. This is just very upsetting and I’m so disappointed in Tom Delay for organizing this attack.”

And organize this attack he did. Here’s the e-mail attributed to Chris Homan, DeLay’s campaign manager:

We would meet tomorrow morning at 9:45 am on the first floor of the parking garage attached to the Marriott. Please get folks to call our campaign office 281.343.1333 and let us know they can do it - or e-mail Leonard Cash (in the cc field above) so that we can get some head count. Let’s give Lampson a parting shot that wrecks his press conference.

Yes, this is the same Tom DeLay who starred at the War on Christians conference, that poor persecuted soul who has been drummed out of Congress solely as a result of his taking “his faith seriously into public office, which made him a target for all those who despise the cause of Christ.”

This can only backfire against DeLay and whoever he hand-picks as his replacement for the general election. Republicans in District 22 are going to be carrying the stain of DeLay for a very long time. But it wouldn’t hurt to go show Nick Lampson a little love.

Hat tip to mini mum who diaried the story here.

Update [2006-4-6 17:43:42 by mcjoan]: There are still photos of the press conference and the disruption (but not the assault) here, with a promise of more to come. Were any Kossacks at the press conference? Did any of you take pictures?

Update [2006-4-6 19:24:35 by mcjoan]: From the comments, the Lampson campaign provides a video link.

Permalink :: Discuss (204 comments) Midday open thread by SusanG Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 12:22:54 PM PDT

A New York Times article examines the frustration of trying to “rebuild” Iraq’s infrastructure when U.S. forces destroyed some of it for military reasons.

Kansas abortion foes invoke seldom-used law to continue fight against reproductive rights, according to AP.

Lawsuit filed against Interior Department, charging GMO crops were cultivated in a refuge, in violation of department policy.

Two British grandmothers arrested under new anti-terrorism legislation that outlaws protest at military bases.

Camus for him, Austen for her, according to the Guardian: A study shows men prefer novels of alienation while women prefer novels of passion and emotion.

Immigration rallies: You can find info on upcoming events at april10.org and also here. (—georgia10)

Bush at 53% disapproval in the latest FoxNews poll. That’s a 36% approval, tying his lowest Fox rating. He’s even losing Republicans, from above 80% down to 74% approval (a mind-boggling number, when you think about it). Approval among Democrats: 8%. Who are you people? Most important priorities? The economy (20%), Iraq (19%), and health care (17%). (mcjoan)

Permalink :: Discuss (184 comments)

By I'm a Wanker, Hear Me Roar

April 7, 2006 11:18 AM | Link to this

DeLay Cuts and Runs from Texas Last night, it was revealed that Rep. Tom DeLay of Texas is dropping out of his re-election bid. DeLay is a symptom of a larger disease — a sick Republican culture of corruption that touches everyone who took his dirty money, voted for his corrupt leadership, or sat silently while their party has sold our government to the highest bidder. Read More…

Unprecedented Fifty-State Canvass Today Governor Dean kicked off the biggest, earliest nationwide voter contact event in party history — the April 29th Neighbor-to-Neighbor Organizing Day. The historic organizing drive will bring together the national party, state parties, and ordinary Democrats on the ground like never before. Read More… Information for Displaced Voters

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By I'm a Wanker, Hear Me Roar

April 7, 2006 11:20 AM | Link to this

GOP Out of Touch on Immingration Posted by Tim Tagaris on April 3, 2006 at 10:36 AM Email this Print this Blog this A study in contrast. First, Time Magazine did some polling at the end of last week on the issue of immingration. They found an overwhelming majority of Americans (79%) prefer a “a guest worker program that would allow illegal immigrants to remain in the U.S. for a fixed period of time.” The article itself goes on to discuss how that is one of the main provisions in the Senate’s primary immingration legislation sposnored by Ted Kennedy and John McCain.

Contrast that with Tom Tancredo, one of the Republican Party’s foremost voices on the issue of immigration.

We will never be able to win in the clash of civilizations, if we don’t know who we are. If Western civilization succumbs to the siren song of multiculturalism, I believe we’re finished. A portrait of intolerance. And who can forget Tancredo’s wide-eyed smile holding a t-s** that bears the words, “America is full.”

Take a look at the entire Time Magazine piece linked above, it’s not that long. There’s some good news in there for those of us who don’t subscribe to the theory of closing borders 48 hours after our own last relative arrived on American shores. There’s also some bad news… A majority of Americans believe that building a 2,000 mile long wall on the southern border will work to stem the flood of people coming into the country illegally. These kind of uncreative solutions will never solve serious problems. You’ll know people like Tom Tancredo, James Sensenbrenner, and the Republican Party as a whole are serious about stopping illegal immingration when you see legislation flying out of a Republican controlled congress that promotes economic development in Mexico, specially Northern Mexico. Until then, talk of walls and deportation of 11-12 million people are not serious solutions, they are attempts to divide Americans and scapegoat an entire population of people for political gain. We’ve seen this playbook before.

Comments - 113 Show Comments and Trackbacks»

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“We’ve seen this playbook before.” to quote the last sentence in the original op-ed.

I agree with Thom Hartman’s article that corporatists are screwing American workers and frankly some Democratic politicians are complicit by non-action.

http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/06/03/con06114.html

We saw it in 1986 when we were told by politicians on both sides that amnesty for 3.5 million illegal immigrants and subsequent enforcement of employers and the border would solve the illegal immigration problem. It never happened.

The infrastructure must be put in place first to provide true enforcement and punishment of greedy employers and on the border.

Until them we are just positioning the USA for another wave of illegal immigration.

Posted by Robson on April 3, 2006 at 11:27 AM

I don’t know who Time magazine polled, but I can tell you it must have been illegals. Everyone I know wants these people to go home. I am sick of watching them wave their Mexican flags. Half of them believe in Reconquista. I’m tired of my tax dollars taking care of their medical and schooling. Most of them do not want to learn English or assimilate. First we sent our jobs to Mexico and now they’re coming here to take people’s jobs and drive the wages down. Build that fence and build it high and wide.

Posted by indygal on April 3, 2006 at 11:41 AM

I’m glad that the Democrats have come out in support of a path to citizenship and have called for increased technology for our border patrol. As you said Tim, sending 11 million people out of the country is just not feasible for a government who couldn’t stop the 11 million from coming in in the first place. Right now, Kennedy and McCain are looking to build a “virtual wall,” with better equipment and resources available for our border patrol.

That seems to be the logical thing to do right now. I’m okay with giving that a shot right now. However, if that is not successful, I do believe we will eventually need to put up a structure to protect our border and place law enforcement behind it.

One of the things that I’m not hearing from many individuals is that effect of having National Guard troops in their second and third terms in Iraq in relation to this border issue. Gov. Napolitano has ordered National Guard to the border to back up border patrol, however, all National Guard units around the country are supremely undermanned due to many of them being in Iraq. We’ve got to find a political solution in Iraq and get those troops home, and their help, in addition to the virtual wall, may help us solve this issue. Otherwise, we’ll be hearing about this issue again in the near future and then a wall or a fence will be a must.

Posted by KDJ on April 3, 2006 at 11:46 AM

I have listened to numerous politicians and strategists of both parties say over and over, it is totally unrealistic to think that we can round up anywhere from 12,000,000 to 20,000,000 illegal immigrants and send them back!! Can you even imagine how this would be done? Can You imagine the MONEY it would cost to do this? Money that could be spent on the real problem——securing those borders and bringing charges against CEOs who are milking this situation of cheap labor !

Get Real !

And Indygal, if any Mexican is taking YOUR’s or Your friends jobs, I suggest you get some education and go into a higher line of work !

Picking crops and mowing lawns is not all it is cracked up to be.

Posted by PamB on April 3, 2006 at 01:10 PM

Marcela Sanchez, a Washington Post syndicated columnist, had this to say last year about immigration:

Immigration Is Not the Only Problem By Marcela Sanchez Special to washingtonpost.com Thursday, May 26, 2005; 10:30 PM

WASHINGTON — Whether you believe Mexican immigrants help or hurt the United States, there is one incontrovertible truth: work here pays much, much better. A low-skilled Mexican worker in this country earns five to six times as much as he would back home, assuming he or she could find a comparable job.

This truth is so obvious it seems a cliche and yet it remains mostly absent from the current debate on how to reform U.S. immigration. For all the talk around the country of border enforcement, guest worker programs, employer sanctions and driver’s licensing restrictions, the sad fact is that none of these “solutions” addresses the root of the problem — a persistent and large U.S.-Mexican income disparity.

Even the most comprehensive and progressive immigration reform proposal in years, introduced this month by Sens. John McCain, R-Ariz., and Edward Kennedy, D-Mass., is more concerned with making U.S. immigration policy more humane than dealing with income disparity between the United States and Mexico. The bill crafts a guest worker program — creating new visa categories and quotas and a secure identification system for employers — but only provides a vague indication that income disparity might be a problem worth taking on.

[]

To alter income disparity, it is obvious that Mexico must reduce its development gap and raise incomes. What is just as apparent is that Americans do not feel, at least at the moment, that they have a responsibility or even an interest in reducing that gap through investment of money and expertise. They don’t feel the same obligation they once felt, say, after World War II for Europe, or that the European Union took on when it bolstered its poorest members. Mexico and the United States may share a 2,000-mile border but their sense of a shared future runs two inches deep.

[]

The administration and Congress are under little pressure to deepen the U.S. commitment to Mexico by a public increasingly fearful and resentful toward immigrants, particularly Mexicans. If anything, such sentiments prolong illegal immigration, in the sense that they distract citizens and leaders alike into thinking that if you put up enough barriers, Mexicans will go away.

Posted by Corinne on April 3, 2006 at 01:23 PM

Posted by PamB on April 3, 2006 at 01:10 PM

It’s not just the money it would cost to deport all of them but what they would be taking out of our economy if we did deport them because they pay billions of dollars of taxes here.

According to the Southern Poverty Law Center, the National Academy of Sciences found that the average immigrant annually contributes $1,800 more in taxes than he or she receives in benefits. Over their lifetimes, immigrants and their children will each pay an average $80,000 more in taxes than they will receive in local, state and federal benefits combined.

Because states provide most services used by immigrants, they can be net financial losers, while the federal government is typically a net gainer.

Posted by Corinne on April 3, 2006 at 01:36 PM

Question forr anyone who knows: Wages for so-called “Guest Worker” programs…. are we talking minimum wage?

Anyone know if this has been discussed? Just wondering if the guest-worker program is envisioned as a way for employers to pay less-than minimum wage….

If anyone knows I’d appreciate hearing from you!

Thanks.

Posted by DTree on April 3, 2006 at 01:47 PM

My belief is that the politicians put the welfare of America far behind their own self interests. The GOP sees it as corporate welfare for their base and the Democratic party sees it as new voting block and the hell with how it affects low skilled US citizens.

Neither side cares what it does to the country as to standard of living and long term competitiveness. And neither side cares what their constituency wants.

It may not be a scientific poll, but I have not spoken to ANY person on either political side, that isn’t totally fed up with the politicians and their pandering on this issue. They want illegal immigration stopped, they are angry with employers, and they want the borders closed.

ALL my Democratic friends are as angry as I am on this.

Posted by Robson on April 3, 2006 at 01:55 PM

In response to the minimum wage question:

I believe President Bush’s guest worker program idea does not call for a required minimum wage. Ideas in the Senate I believe do call for such a wage.

Posted by KDJ on April 3, 2006 at 02:16 PM

Posted by KDJ on April 3, 2006 at 02:16 PM

Thanks KDJ, I’m thinking will become a big part of the debate if the guest worker thing actually goes through….

Posted by DTree on April 3, 2006 at 02:25 PM

McCain-Kennedy guarantees guest workers all of the same workplace rights as U.S. citizens and, by bringing their employment out into the open, helps to ensure that minimum wage laws, safety standards and the right organize a union will be more consistently and effectively enforced. The bill also doesn’t tie guest workers to a single job, enabling them to leave an employer to seek a better opportunity elsewhere.

My guess is the House bill does none of these things.

Posted by Corinne on April 3, 2006 at 02:27 PM

To Robson I totally agree with you. Just ignore Pam B.

Posted by indygal on April 3, 2006 at 02:28 PM

Posted by Corinne on April 3, 2006 at 02:27 PM

Thanks Corinne… I guess this goes along with the arguments we’re hearing to effect that “Guest worker programs reward illegal behaviour” etc…..

Personally, my gripe is the oft-repeated phrase “Jobs Americans Won’t Do.”

I wish someone would jump on that one… illegal immigration aside, in my mind there is no job and american won’t do!

Posted by DTree on April 3, 2006 at 02:37 PM

About the illegal immigration issue:

Fellow Dems, let’s try to remember how wedge issues are used to divide America. In my mind, the issue is not the illegal immigrants themselves: it is the politicians and lobbying interests who favor Free (but not fair) Trade, Job Outsourcing, “Low or No” wages or worker protections, who have neglected to give their full attention to port and border security as recommended by the 9/11 commission.

The strategists fanning the flames on this issue would be happy for us all to turn against illegal immigrants as if deporting them and building a wall will do anything to protect American workers and American jobs… these actions are not pro American worker… they are only anti-immigrant!

Furthermore, let’s remember that the large numbers of illegal immigrants did not get here overnight, nor will we see a dramatic increase their numbers overnight.

We have time to have a clear-headed debate on this issue and we have time to pass laws that take our border security seriously.

I say border security comes first, and as a result we’ll see less illegal immigrants.

In the meantime, let’s try and come together around the fact that illegal immigrants who work and pay taxes, are working for America and driving our economy along with the rest of us hard working folks.

Posted by DTree on April 3, 2006 at 02:51 PM

Posted by DTree on April 3, 2006 at 02:37 PM

The number one offender who uses that term is Bush, to boost the credibility of a guest worker program.

But there is a certain truth: There are jobs that Americans won’t do—because they don’t pay enough. If you want Americans to work picking lettuce or work in a garment factory, you need to pay a decent wage and follow the labor laws that are on the books.

Instead, employers have found a way to get around their obligations by employing “undocumented” workers, thus creating a demand for illegal labor.

At bottom, the immigration “crisis” is a supply and demand issue. There is a supply of undocumented workers because there is a demand for it. I think if the government really enforced the laws that are already on the books and worked to reduce the demand for undocumented labor, the supply will decrease (I think there will always be a stream of undocumented immigrants no matter what.) Employers need to pay more for doing the jobs that “Americans won’t do.”

Posted by Corinne on April 3, 2006 at 02:55 PM

To Robson I totally agree with you. Just ignore Pam B.

Posted by indygal on April 3, 2006 at 02:28 PM

uhhh, indy, I totally agree with Robson, that our borders MUST GET CLOSED once and for all, too!

Please re=read my post, you missed something there. I was saying that it is generally agreed by all, that it is totally unreasonable, to think we are going to find and send back or arrest, that many illegal aliens, so our energies and money has to be spent on REAL effective changes! Like Border security !

Everyone in the know is also saying a Fence is ludicruous. They are tunneling under blockades and fences and guards right now!

me thinks your touch of Bigotry and intolerance is more likely to make your decisions, than any real education of the issue. Let me know how someone in Indiana is affected by Illegal Immigrants ! I am willing to bet you have not even seen one with your own eyes!

Posted by PamB on April 3, 2006 at 04:46 PM

Fact 1: We have large numbers of inner city blacks that are experiencing very high unemployment rates. It is costing the USA in numerous ways, through direct welfare and indirect social services with higher crime, incarceration, etc.

Fact 2: We have unskilled illegal aliens who are coming into this country undercutting and taking the jobs that are causing much of the situation above. These illegals are good for only a select few greedy business people, and politicians trying to make points for themselves while screwing their constituents.

And then we have political leaders who have the foresight of a baboon telling us that this is good for America. Jeez.

Posted by Robson on April 3, 2006 at 05:05 PM

Ok, so now people are blaming illegal immigrants for racism and inner city poverty.

This is wedge issue folks… let’s focus on the policies that will:

1) make our ports and borders more secure 2) create jobs for Americans 3) encourage “fair” trade in developing countries so people can support their families without having to cross to Amecia illegally.

Posted by DTree on April 3, 2006 at 05:38 PM

OK, say you have no illegal immigrants in this country…. now please explain how you would fix the problem of inner city poverty.

I fail to see how the two issues are connected, but that’s just me.

Posted by DTree on April 3, 2006 at 05:44 PM

I think Republican politicans could learn from other societies about how to treat guests. In other cultures when a host offers hospitality, he puts the guest before himself.

This White House guest worker talk is nothing more than the usual Rovarian double-speak. It has nothing to do with guests and everything to do with cheap labor.

Even the “guests” have figured it out. They took to the streets to announce that they’re not going to be treated like E-bay items that can be auctioned off after 5 years of use. Good for them.

Posted by SandyH on April 3, 2006 at 05:46 PM

Posted by SandyH on April 3, 2006 at 05:46 PM

yeah, fact of the matter is that we already have a “guest worker program.”

It’s called a work visa!!! (only problem is that the employer has to pay a fair wage and taxes…) ;)

Posted by DTree on April 3, 2006 at 05:52 PM

The Democratic Party is also out of touch with Americans on the Immigration issue! I was stunned to see only Democrats on Sunday’s Talking Heads shows supporting Bush’s “Amensty Plan” for “Illegal Immigrants” (That’s what they are not “Undocumented Workers”) The argument we need to be making is for the Protection of our Borders and the enforcement of current laws on the books… If you hired an “Illegal Immigrant” you broke the law and should be fined.

Once the jobs for “Illegal Immigrants” dry up we won’t need to deport them. Only then can we start the discussion on a real “Guest Worker” program for workers who wish to follow the law and are not “Illegal Immigrants” Americans are Angry at Washington over the failure of our Immigration Policy and we are all aware it’s a failure on both sides. If the Democrats in the beltway want to side with Bush on this issue and then come to us for donations and support at election time they may be in for a rude awakening…

Posted by RedMan_62 on April 3, 2006 at 06:05 PM

This party is out of touch with the vast majority of the middle class on this issue. I do not understand how the Democrats can criticize the Rescumlicans for waging war on the middle class from above by cutting benefits and shifting the tax burden in relative terms from the rich and then turn around an embrace a program that wages war on the middle class from below by savaging wages by embracing the importation of cheap labor. This is yet another indication of the emerging dictatorship of capital.

The truth is both parties are water carriers for Corporate America.

As a life-long Democrat and former county chairman I am leaving the party and will vote for third party candidates until this party remembers it’s New Deal roots.

Since when has it become liberal to savage the middle class by embracing cheap foriegn labor. And how is this different than exporting jobs overseas.

And please, no more nonsense about how these people are taking jobs no American will do. I have seen them working as masons, stone masons, carpenters, roofers, concrete workers, drywall and painters. Skilled labor that used to pay a living wage. This is straight nonsense produced by conservative stink tanks and it pains me to see Democratic leaders parroting this nonesense.

Posted by neonewdealer on April 3, 2006 at 06:22 PM

I and my friends and even my enemies are against a guest worker program. We need to improve border security. As for the ILLEGALS paying taxes where??. They are illegal the only taxes they pay would be sales tax. They certainly don’t pay income tax. However, they certainly benefit from food stamps, free medical care etc. I don;t have free medical care or food stamps. I would love to have medical care but can’t afford it. BUt the people of BOTH parties in washington have FORGOTTEN about the American people who actually keep the country going. They are more concerned with other countries, big business and themselves. A VERY SELFISH GROUP OF PEOPLE IN WASHINGTON TODAY. The Anerican people need to remember this in NOV. and choose the BEST person for the job not chose along party lines.

Posted by surprised on April 3, 2006 at 06:57 PM

To PamB

I totally agree with you - just ignore indygal :)

Posted by dorsano on April 3, 2006 at 07:07 PM

Posted by neonewdealer on April 3, 2006 at 06:22 PM This is yet another indication of the emerging dictatorship of capital.

That’s the crux of it and that fix is generations away even if trade policy and labor policy is changed to promote it.

Posted by dorsano on April 3, 2006 at 07:22 PM

Those who ignore free trade don’t want to solve the problem.

Those who ignore corporate greed don’t want to fix the problem.

Those who ignore Mexican wages don’t want to end the problem.

Posted by pee-wee on April 3, 2006 at 07:27 PM

Posted by surprised on April 3, 2006 at 06:57 PM They are illegal the only taxes they pay would be sales tax. They certainly don’t pay income tax. However, they certainly benefit from food stamps, free medical care etc. I don;t have free medical care or food stamps. I would love to have medical care but can’t afford it.

Here are the eligibility requirements for foodstamps starting with …

Everyone in your household must have or apply for a Social Security number and be in one of the following categories:

McCarthy used to just make stuff too - it is an old playbook

Posted by dorsano on April 3, 2006 at 07:29 PM

DTree….The first solution to inner city poverty is that unskilled US citizens must have ready access to jobs with reasonable wages.

But 20 Million illegals are taking those jobs because they will work their butts off as pseudo slaves/illegal immigrants at sub par wages. They have to work hard as the alternative is deportation.

Posted by Robson on April 3, 2006 at 07:30 PM

Posted by Robson on April 3, 2006 at 07:30 PM

Let’s just agree to disagree. The first solution to inner city poverty is for America to take a good hard look at the issue of racism in this country.

Getting rid of illegal immigrants will do nothing to fix inner city poverty.

…That is, if you are really concerned with fixing inner city poverty, and not just concerned with it “costing the USA in numerous ways, through direct welfare and indirect social services with higher crime, incarceration, etc.

But, if it’s illegal immigration that really gets your goat, then you need to focus more attention on what causes illegal immigration:

Deficient port and border security. Democrats will implement all the recommendations of the 9/11 commission to secure our ports and borders

Government in bed with big business: Democrats are the only party that can stand up to big business and fight for fair treatment of American workers

Lobbyists in bed with republican leaders push for sweatshop wages in latin america: Only Democats can make free trade into “Fair Trade.”

Posted by DTree on April 3, 2006 at 09:22 PM

This has to be said:

Half of the Democratic politicians are bought off too. (DLC)

Posted by pee-wee on April 3, 2006 at 09:46 PM

Dtree….Agree then, we’ll have to disagree.

“Getting rid of illegal immigrants will do nothing to fix inner city poverty.”

Unlike what Bush and his many greedy cohorts say, there is a declining number of low skill/menial jobs in the country. If unskilled American citizens have these opportunities taken from them by uninvited illegals, then aside from going out and getting a skill how are they going to get a job? That’s the first step out of poverty.

I agree with your 3 bullet points to an extent (maybe 65%-70%). Politicians are looking out for their self interests only. And Clinton, by signing NAFTA made me take another look at the Democratic Party and whether they are as pro-worker as they used to be. BTW their current stand on pro-illegals only proves to me they aren’t.

Posted by Robson on April 3, 2006 at 10:46 PM

pee-wee…..Agreed. If anyone thinks that one party or the other is immune from graft then they need to get a grip on reality. Big corporate money will play both sides of the aisle when necessary and both sides will have their palms up. This is especially true since unions are almost an extinct entity, thanks to the last 4 Presidents and their affinity to globalism, CAFTA, NAFTA, WTO, multi-nationals, etc..

I’m worried that American workers have lost what was their main political support…the Democratic Party.

Posted by Robson on April 3, 2006 at 10:55 PM

Posted by Robson on April 3, 2006 at 10:55 PM I’m worried that American workers have lost what was their main political support…the Democratic Party.

I wonder about that myself sometimes

Posted by dorsano on April 3, 2006 at 11:31 PM

Don’t be suckered in Democrats! The whole raising of the issue of immigration is nothing more than a Karl Rove PLOY! It’s a smokescreen, a misdirection, a totally insincere attempt at changing the national dialogue.

Don’t let them get away with it!!!!!

STAY ON MESSAGE!!!!!

There are two critical issues in this country right now: 1. The Bush Iraq disaster 2. The rampant Republican corruption at all levels.

The republicans created the immigration discussion for two reasons, to cement their base and to take the heat off.

This is it. This is their play. This is their election year strategy. It’s going down and it’s going down right now. It’s ALL manipulation and gamesmanship.

DON’T LET THEM CHANGE THE SUBJECT!!! DON’T LET THEM TELL YOU WHAT TO TALK ABOUT!!! DON’T LET THEM OFF THE HOOK EVER!!!

Posted by NWDan on April 4, 2006 at 12:13 AM

I live on the Texas-Mexico border, I have for 31 years. The illegal crossing has been here for all of my life, yet not as public as today. I cannot tell you of a day where we did not see illegal boys, girls, women with children asking for money in a drive thru. Walking the streets hoping to find a dollar. This is something that our country has dealt with for centuries. As a Mexican-American woman I am torn. I feel that creating a wall to “keep them out” is inhumane and it would not work. What you need to understand is, these people are desperate for work, money, a better life for their families. How humane is it to cross a river not knowing what you may run into? We must do our best to talk to our neighbors to the south and help the government keep thier citizens at home. Or we must change the “assistance programs” in this country. I have seen what this “free ride” has created…. an open door for illegal migration. We must try and assist these individuals by creating time periods for medicaid, food stamps, etc and educate them. Teach them the language, provide classes for GED, parenting classes, etc.. this in the long run will help these families become hard working, tax paying individuals which is what we all would like to see. Too many families know the benefits of giving birth to children in this country, too many families are provided with too much while not working a day in their lives. This is the reason for the constant migration. Let’s help our migrants by making them help themselves. I come from a migrant family where assistance was never an option. Today my educated father sees the fruit of their labor with an educated family consisting of doctors, lawyers, engineers, speech therapists, etc… That is the American dream, that is what we must teach our immigrants. We invite you into our country, but work for it and make your voice heard in a positive manner.

Posted by RVLucio on April 4, 2006 at 12:33 AM

Actually the United States does need to secure the border and the best way to do that would be with the military as a back-up to the border control. This isn’t intolerance, what is intolerance is when the president of Mexico Vicente Fox said “Americans should be thankful, Mexicans are doing the jobs that not even blacks would”. Now that is intolerance and racist and to this no apology was ever made which is rude. We have to stop allowing so many people to keep coming into the United States the wrong illegal way. Jobs are being stolen from the middle-class and the poor. No more amnesty for illegal aliens! The law is the law and it’s wrong to reward people for breaking the law and it’s also a slap in the face to people who moved to the United States but did it the right and legal way. I also think Vicente Fox owes African Americans a big apology for his offensive comments. It seems like these days Lou Dobbs on CNN is one of the few who is in touch with what the majority of Americans are thinking on this topic, just look at the results on the CNN polls over the past two years on Lou Dobbs Tonight.

Posted by DemocratKickingAss on April 4, 2006 at 12:43 AM

Also, the Mexican government has to start being more responsible because they aren’t doing anything to lift their own people out of poverty which is wrong and it’s also wrong how big companies in the United States are taking advantage of the situation. Often times below poverty level wages are being paid which isn’t right.

Posted by DemocratKickingAss on April 4, 2006 at 12:46 AM

America IS full, full of fools who want an illegal invading force to be legalized. I do believe some illegals should be allowed to stay in the country - to be used instead of animals for biologic warfare testing, cosmetic testing, new pharmacological component testing etc. etc.. But to allow a bunch of illegal alien invaders to remain and to be rewarded for their unlawful entry is ludicrous! Hang’em from the yardarm

Posted by garfisher on April 4, 2006 at 12:52 AM

I also think Vicente Fox owes African Americans a big apology for his offensive comments.

He did - almost a year ago.

The law is the law and it’s wrong to reward people for breaking the law and it’s also a slap in the face to people who moved to the United States but did it the right and legal way.

The “guest worker” program is nothing more than a work visa - they all already have jobs - they all already qualify for a work visa - they wouldn’t get citizenship ahead of anyone else.

Posted by dorsano on April 4, 2006 at 12:54 AM

Posted by garfisher on April 4, 2006 at 12:52 AM

Heil Hitler

Posted by dorsano on April 4, 2006 at 12:57 AM

I find it sad that the Democratic party no longer chooses to represent the US citizens who work for a living. The Democratic party embraced free trade agreements that exported US jobs. Now they continue in that new tradition by supporting the continued importation of labor to decrease US wages and diminish job opportunities.

I find it rather crass to suggest that all US citizens can educate or work their way out of low skill level jobs. I also find it crass to suggest that US citizens are too good to do these jobs. US citizens are not genetically superior to foreign citizens nor are foreign citizens genetically superior to US citizens. I’m not interested in creating an untouchable class of foreign workers to be treated as less than human. US citizens should be allowed to work in low skill level jobs and be treated with dignity and paid fairly.

The mass importation of foreign citizens reduces wages and job opportunities for US citizens. Massive importation of illegal aliens who have only a high school education or less causes a labor surplus. US citizens with a high school education or less can no longer participate in the workforce because they can’t not find a job due to increased competition or they can’t afford to work for below subsistence level wages. It is unforgivable to fix the labor market to the deteriment of the working poor in the US.

Refusing to enforce immigration laws and rewarding law breakers with amnesty, legalization, or guestworker programs is only about providing cheap labor for disreputable employers engaged in illegal activities.

http://www.cis.org/articles/2006/back206.pdf

Posted by gtbBear on April 4, 2006 at 01:43 AM

I don’t think we can solve the world’s poverty problems through our immigration policy. Instead we need to look at our trade policies that benefit multi-national corporations and hurt US citizens as well as foreign citizens. We also need to offer advice, guidance, and aid to foreign countries that have massive problems with poverty.

The United States can not hold all the people who want to become US citizens to escape poverty in their own countries. Importing poverty from the developing world just puts the US underclass deeper into poverty and hopelessness. It does very little to help the massive poverty problems of the developing world and does much to harm the poor in the USA. We are in fact full.

Sorting Through Humanitarian Clashes in Immigration

http://www.thesocialcontract.com/cgi-bin/showarticle.pl?articleID=671&terms=

Posted by gtbBear on April 4, 2006 at 01:57 AM

Are all illegals here for a better life? Don,t think so! Go to mexica-movement.org (It just might change your point of view on this topic)Wake up America

Posted by CajunBoy on April 4, 2006 at 02:40 AM

Illegal immigrants are in this country because we want them here. We want the cheap labor but we do not want to pay the taxes American workers require. Government has turned their backs for decades to insure this supply of cheap labor is maintained. We are all guilty because we buy the houses they build and we use them in many ways. They can’t complain about anything because they are illegal therefore we have them over a barrel. Allowing them to stay here for several years and work is the same thing. How do we know when their time is up? Who checks, what happens then? It’s a joke. If we want them to do our work, they should get the benefits from it just like anybody else or Latinos should use their economic and political power, and it is substantial, to get what the deserve. What Congress is doing now is dancing around the issue to try to calm the public but keep the cheap labor.It is a slap in the face to all Mexicans. If the Latino community sticks together, they have more power than they can imagine.

Posted by Tug on April 4, 2006 at 10:25 AM

hmmm…. looks like Rove unleashed the troll-loggers big time on this issue… i don’t think i’ve seen this many republican bloggers fomenting dissent since the gay marriage debate.

sheesh indeed.

Dems, let’s keep up the momentum… the GOP is running scared and this is their last ditch effort to change the debate! Stay on point and we’ll take back congress in november!!! Dems are the onky ones who can address ALL the issues and get our country back on track!

You need a talking point on immigration? Try this one:

Impliment the recommendations of the 911 commission and make our ports and borders secure once and for all!! Republicans have blocked every attempt to fund port and border security for the last 5 years! That’s a record they can’t run away from!

Posted by DTree on April 4, 2006 at 11:18 AM

My message to the party is that the bill from Kennedy and Macain I think will drive more democrats over to the republicans in november. The american worker is losing jobs to overseas factories and outsorceing and now they want to import more aliens for jobs. How about the americans at the lower end of the pay scale they cant work for the slave wages the the employers pay to these people. We have alot of poor people here too, that can’t find decent paying jobs. I think you a making a big mistake as far as the November election is concerned.I sure don’t agree with this bill and I don’t think Time Mag. is correct either. shorty

Posted by shorty on April 4, 2006 at 11:19 AM

I’m tired of people over-simplifing the jobs illegal immigrants are taking as lawn cutting and dishwashing—they also take construction jobs, meat cutting jobs and thousands of others. And to let employers off the hook because “nobody else will fill these jobs” is fallacious. Maybe nobody will take the jobs at the cut-rate pay employers can now get away with offering because illegals won’t complain, or unionize or ask for a raise. On another point: I think we should change the law about a child born here automatically being citizen; if I were to rob a bank, and give the money to my kids, you bet the authorities would prevent them from profiting from a crime, and seize the money. “Oh, but you’re punishing the child,” people say. No, the parent is punishing them by offering them something (citizenship) that was gotten by way of an illegal act. Lastly, to say that some of us are in favor of changing things once we (or our parents or grandparents) got here is also misleading. My grandparents came here legally; I’m still in favor of ‘legal’ immigration (how could I not be?)

Posted by NDeeeZ on April 4, 2006 at 11:30 AM

I’m a middle of the road blue collar democrat. my famili has supported the democratic party since 1928 when al smith ran for president. But I see the stance the leaders of our party are taking on this issue are saying someone like me who plays the game by the rules that i don’t matter.The party will lose middle of the road democrats like myself which will be a shame.

Posted by fanspeed on April 4, 2006 at 01:17 PM

just another quick note i wrote my 2 california senators about this issue. Boxer responded with a nice reply but fienstien never bothered with a responce to a loyal democrat.

Posted by fanspeed on April 4, 2006 at 01:23 PM

I’m totally in agreement with this post, but I must ask, why is Sen. McCain not able to gather the necessary 60 votes in the Senate to support the “Guest-Worker” program? Which democrats demurred? Any? I hope not. I’ll check later.

Posted by Santander on April 4, 2006 at 02:38 PM

I would like to add this: In the 1980’s and thereabouts the wave of Irish and Italian migration to the U.S was called a “plague”; the same was said of the Greeks, the Jews, the Chinese.. It seems that we always forget where we come from, as a country. Those immigrants built this land. They built our railroads. They built New York City, Los Angeles, Houston, Boston. Immigrants now are the same as immigrants then; hard working, proud, and grateful. Let’s not forget that. Let’s not forget that St Patrick’s Day was first celebrated by millions of illegal Irish. I dont hear anything about THEIR flag waving. It is extremely hypocritical to hate immigrants now, ask them to leave under false economic pretexts; if someone asked your family to leave when they boarded a boat from Europe three generations ago, destined to work for peanuts and occupy the slums, all for the glory of living in the U.S, you would be hurt and insulted too. I hope race is not the issue here, but I fear it is.

Posted by Santander on April 4, 2006 at 02:55 PM

I meant the 1890’s.

Posted by Santander on April 4, 2006 at 02:56 PM

If you leave this great party over this stupid wedge issue,you were never a Dem to begin with!

Posted by ncmoderateyouth on April 4, 2006 at 03:11 PM

I’ll tell you who made it a wedge issue, the limo liberals and the far right who aren’t affected by illegals. They live in an ivory tower or gated community and have lost touch with the reality of it all.

Centrist Democrats and moderate Republicans should get our own party because neither side represents our interests anymore. It’s all about globalism and power to the party.

Posted by Robson on April 4, 2006 at 04:07 PM

DTree I agree that the Republicans have been worthless on border security and port security since 9-11. I only wish I had confidence that the Democratic Party would take the lead on this. Instead it appears to be supporting exactly what Bush wants.

Posted by Robson on April 4, 2006 at 04:10 PM

the difference is those italian and other immigrants entered the country leagaly. and what do you say to the immigrants who followed the rules and sought to obtain citzenship thru the proper channels?” thank you for playing by the rules now too bad F U”

Posted by fanspeed on April 4, 2006 at 04:33 PM

Here’s another difference…the Irish, the Chinese etc. tried their best to assimilate, learn the language and embrace their new country. A generation (or two) ago, there was nobody more proud of their country than an immigrant with new citizenship papers. That acquisition of national identity is what the ‘melting pot’ is all about. We all come from different backgrounds, but we are all Americans. Where is that pride with illegal immigrants? Nonexistant.

Posted by NDeeeZ on April 4, 2006 at 04:58 PM

I just hope that people keep in mind the operative word here is illegal. We need to have some immigration controls for health and safety issues. There will always be those sanctions who will take advantage of a good thing and use if for evil. If people want to enter following the rules, then fine. If not, I guess I have to agree that they should not enter. If they wish to come here and benefit, then there is some accountability and responsibility that goes with any privilege. For people to come here and not be accountable or have any obligation to their benefactor, then that is wrong. According to world statistics, Mexico has the highest rate of remittance from emmigrant workers in the world and the U.S. has the highest influx of mexican immigrants. We have to keep a balance on this. If people wish to enter legally and citizentry that is here is safe-guarded, then fine. If they wish to come here to rape for profit and then leave, then no, they should not come. Oh Joy

Posted by ohjoy on April 4, 2006 at 05:15 PM

I just hope that people keep in mind the operative word here is illegal. We need to have some immigration controls for health and safety issues. There will always be those sanctions who will take advantage of a good thing and use if for evil. If people want to enter following the rules, then fine. If not, I guess I have to agree that they should not enter. If they wish to come here and benefit, then there is some accountability and responsibility that goes with any privilege. For people to come here and not be accountable or have any obligation to their benefactor, then that is wrong. According to world statistics, Mexico has the highest rate of remittance from emmigrant workers in the world and the U.S. has the highest influx of mexican immigrants. We have to keep a balance on this. If people wish to enter legally and citizentry that is here is safe-guarded, then fine. If they wish to come here to rape for profit and then leave, then no, they should not come. Oh Joy

Posted by ohjoy on April 4, 2006 at 05:16 PM

I can’t believe it….Randi Rhodes, Lou Dobbs, and right wing radio agreeing that illegal immigration will obliterate the US middle class.

Also that the employers of illegals should be literally hung out to dry for it.

Posted by Robson on April 4, 2006 at 07:54 PM

Well, Hello Dems,

It’s about time I heard some fighting Dems out there writing about the total Bull our party is delivering on this issue or lack thereof.

Just for the sake of it. Remember Illegal is illegal, that means on both the immigrant and, more importantly the Company who hires them. This should be out right treason in a post 911 world.

Also, to pay taxes you need an SSN number so if you are illegal and pay taxes, well oops, there you go again, breaking the law cause illegal means no SSN number.

Next, if you are illegal and have a child born in the United States, there you go, an SSN!!! Wow, now you can apply for medicad and food stamps for your kid and by the way the more you have, the more you get, get it? These babies, by the way are tearing down the US flags and raising Mexican flags at our schools, parading in our streets and Yes, being educated all on our tax paying asses. I don’t see those kids carrying the US flag and asking for their relatives to become legal or to get Amnesty. These people want open borders. Get It!!

And no, if you think giving these people more financial support in the form of Public welfare, and family education and all that jazz is the answer, then why hasn’t it already worked for all the Americans that are currently on Public Assistance.

Pretty soon, our window of opportunity will run out. Another terrorist attack is coming. Illegal or no, we will all be effected. In the meantime we are all being so, side tracked on this issue while nothing is being done!

I by the way, as many of you know, am a breed of many races as well as married to an Hispanic, with children, and Hispanic grandchildren. That said, to be called a bigot, save that word for someone else. I have also worked for 15 years in one of those jobs “Americans won’t do”, and am appalled that my hispanic blood ties would again be summed up with such a racist remark as this. Not all hispanics are that ignorant to let this remark slide.

Immigration should be respected, if it is done “legally” Magic word? No, I don’t think so.

I resent that my husband, children and grandchildren, all Americans by the way, are looked upon by other non Hispanic’s as they are automatically illegal and resented or treated less than human because of it, and believe me folks it happens. Both in public as well as in the work place.

So, I say out with the illegals. It’s cheaper to deport, then to pay for their public assistance over the years. We already gave them Amnesty in the 1980’s and all we got is more illegals. In with the Legalization process that is already in place. Wait your turn and follow the rules. Bottom line.

Enforce our laws Leadership, and take those Companies who hire them to task for Treason against this Country as rightly they are.

As this Country is governed by the people, for the people. Meaning Americans.

I’m done.

Posted by AmercnWmn on April 4, 2006 at 08:05 PM

Robson,

This might mean a new political group developing in our nation that is neither far right wing nor far left.

It may be the American middle class!! Who by the way better stand up and take their turn before it is to late.

Cause the Dems sure ain’t doing the job for us no more.

Posted by AmercnWmn on April 4, 2006 at 08:14 PM

8 out of ten democrats I have talked to (48 of 60) tend to agree with tom tancredo, and want all illegal immigrants prosecuted and sent back! This is only a wedge issue for the 15 % of active vocal democrats who think otherwise. The rest of us will cast our ballots accordingly. I’ve voted democratic for 40 years,but will not vote for any democrat who wants to allow all the illegals to remain. Even worse some here in Iowa even wanted to allow illegal aliens to get a drivers lisc. Another wanted the state to purchase $ 200,000 of spanish language books for their local library since they couldnt read english. We didnt do these things for poles,germans,japanese, chinese,etc. etc. The Bush proposal is another ploy for big business.

Posted by olddemocrat on April 4, 2006 at 08:28 PM

AmericanWmn…I can’t tell you how impressed I am when I hear and see successful people of Mexican heritage, here legally, speaking fluent English, joining our culture, and fully taking part in the American dream.

But I can’t tell you how outraged it makes me to see millions of illegals marching with their Mexican flag demanding that we Americans MUST accept these invaders.

It ain’t going to happen but it will hurt many people like yourself that want to be American in America.

Posted by Robson on April 4, 2006 at 08:36 PM

I think the Dems are out of touch with their base in immigration. The McCain-Kennedy bill will not bring out the faithful. The faintest whiff of “amnesty” or “guest worker” will keep non-hispanic low-income voters, Blacks and union members home on election day ‘06.

Posted by dh06 on April 4, 2006 at 08:42 PM

What part about illegal immigration don’t you understand. Supporting illegal immigration is wrong plain and simple.

ILLEGAL immigration and legal immigration are not the same. We welcome over 1 million legal new immigrants a year. Those people waiting and processing legally have been fooled. Break the law and get rewarded. Follow the law and be a chump.

Why do we have such lax border security as to allow millions of illegal aliens into this country? Who benefits: Number one —Corporate America. They get to keep your wages low by exploiting illegals. According to the Pew center on Hispanic Studies, the biggest losers due to illegal immigration are recent legal Hispanic legal immigrants. Chumped again.

It is estimated that for a quart of strawberries that paying legal minimum wages would increase picking costs from 12 cents to 25 cents. Why do we exploit illegals to save 12 cents?

Why do we support a racist set of organizations to promote their un American agenda? Who are we talking about—La Raza (The Race), LuLAC, Univision (Jorge Ramos) and other Latino organizations that 1) support the reconquista, the reqconquest of America by Latinos 2) Support the subversion of US law by supporting illegal immigration 3) Support the Latinization of America within 30 years

Why aren’t these racist groups clamoring for Chinese, Poles, and all others who want to come into this country illegally? Because they are not the Race?

Why is it Mexico stops illegal immigration into their country on their southern border and encourages it to our country by handing out maps, guides and the support of Mexican army troops to assist these invaders?

30 per cent of prison space is occupied by foreigners a majority of them illegal aliens.

Our schools, hospitals, and social infrastructure are to the breaking point in areas where illegal immigration is high. A number of hospitals have declared bankruptcy in the southwestern US.

Why are we forced to accommodate Spanish speakers? Why not Chinese, Polish, Russian and so on and so forth? What makes Latinos so special above everyone else? If we are going to allow millions of illegals in why not let everyone in?

The Catholic Church is counting on the illegal invasion to increase its church membership (Saw it on EWTN. Fr. Neuhaus was the speaker). Why don’t they work to stop overpopulation and poverty in the countries where they dominate? Seems like those countries are all failures and ours is a success. I don’t want this country to look like Latin America, do you? Anyone heard of the fifth column? Look it up and see what it means.

According to several places I have looked there apparently is no successful guest worker program in the world. It is an idea that is always fraught with problems. We have 12- 20 million illegals to deal with now. Let’s not add more fuel to the fire by adding a guest worker program until we know we can succeed.

All illegal aliens should be immediately required to register so that we know who and where these people are. . Why in the world is a legal document (passport) required to visit Mexico and millions of law breakers are here without a single legal document and do just fine. Apparently the punishment for entering Mexico illegally is 6 years in prison. Why don’t the laws support the 280 million legal Americans?

And now we have thousands of illegals waving other countries flags demanding to be treated like American citizens. What the heck is going on in this country?

Let’s be Americans first by securing our borders and ports. Those who break the laws -employers and illegal aliens should be punished with the laws that are already on the books.

Our country should be sending economic development troops to these poor countries instead of invading Iraq. Help these people help themselves. We can not accept everyone.

PS. I am a card carrying Democrat. But I am an American first. Stop Illegal Immigation Now.

Posted by PatriotforAmerica on April 4, 2006 at 09:41 PM

The big piece of the picture that is being missed is the fact that they see Americans as Europeans intruding on their land. That is the reason why you see all illegals waving the Mexican flag. People from either party needs to start seeing it the way that it is. These illegal people went out into droves protesting and all the while carrying Mexican flags. Did anyone actually READ what was on the signs they carried?

This is going to turn into a huge mess, and it has nothing to do with wages. We need to secure our borders and kick the people who don’t want to assimilate into American way of life OUT!!!

Posted by hera4069 on April 4, 2006 at 10:35 PM

I am appalled and amazed at how it seems the Black community is simply pushed aside in so many areas of decisions being made in the U.S. today. I am particulary amazed at how the party that is supposed to be for us is doing little to absolutely nothing to address the needs of African Americans and blue collar whites. But in this case I am speaking more specifically for African Americans. It seems that you are all dancing around not the May, but the “Political Poll.” It is almost like you are blind to what is actually going on around you and what the true feelings are about illegal immigration. Where all of these conflicting polls are coming from, I can’t even imagine. Do you really think you are expressing the true feelings of born in the USA; here through generations; LEGAL; tax paying (when not even getting a fare shake educationally, economically or socially) African Americans. Or is it just that you are pushing us to the side and think that you already have our vote in a nutshell.

It is constantly stated that the illegal (undocumented is double speak) immigrants are only taking jobs that Americans do not want. How crazy! You mean to tell me that suddenly all of the Blacks working in parking lots, doing construction, working as waiters, bus boys and short order cooks, landscapers, cement layers suddenly looked up one day and said oh the illegals are here we don’t need these jobs any more, we’d rather be unemployed and homeless or on the edge of it. We are not ignorant. We are aware that they are taking jobs at a lower rate of pay, and therefore bringing down (or at least stifiling)the rates of pay for others. But, there was just a report out on the conditions of Black men in America. Their rates of unemployment run into the 50 percents and then some. How is this okay? And housing. Yes, we are aware (because they came into our neighborhoods first) that they can live together in large groups and pool their money to pay rents. It would have been impossible for African Americans to do that. In a private home yes, but in apartments, no. You had a lease, when the lease expired you renewed your lease or you moved. There were stringent rules on how many people could abode in a resident. There are so many rules that have been put aside for them that it is both ridiculous and insulting.

All Blacks get after years of Slavery, Jim Crowe, last hired-first fired, redlining, bad press, unjust prison sentences, bad schools and overpriced bad housing is ignored, undermined, and practically told to be patient, yet again. It is insulting considering all of the above(and then some)for you to turn a blind eye and ear and assume that it is no problem to watch our tax dollars go to house; feed; hospitalize; give special programs to people who are here illegally. We see that they take summer jobs and after school jobs from our children; take lower paying jobs (from people who usually worked two or more of those jobs to support their families [yet suddenly “hard working” seems to only be used in print lately to describe the illegal immigrants]). Add to that the fact that a lot of these same people are predjudiced and arrogant toward Blacks.

Come on we are not even quite 40 years into voter rights for African Americans and yet, you expect us to be pleased and accept with open arems a new people who are getting away with all sort of crime (false papers; false and fraudulent identification; fradulent use of social security numbers, be they made up or stolen) and violence; who evade rules right and left (putting up food stands where they well feel like it. Food licenses anyone?); evade taxes; and ARE HERE ILLEGALLY.

Does the Democratic party even pay attention or ever listen to African American radio or read African American newspapers or look at their opinion polls. You will find that, no, overall we are certainly not please with the route politicians seem to be taking to give amnesty to the illegal immigrants that are already here and to have a guest worker program. We are not pleased with the affirmative action that we fought and marched for with our blood, sweat and tears, be given on a silver platter to aliens, yet our civil rights have been constantly being stepped on and down played. We are treated wosre than step children, yet this country was built on our backs.

It is shameful. My sign is name is such because, my, my, my how soon you all seem to forget. But we (except for maybe Clarence Thomas types out there) remember.

You Democrats need to get up with the pulse of the African American community. I have always voted Democrat, but my mind is changing very fast. I never thought I would consider voting Republican, but I am seeing a dull dividing line between the parties. This is either because the Democrats have become a really chicken party or their ideals have just changed. Some of the very Republican politicians you call to the carpet for their opinions against okaying illegal immigration are beginning to look worth studying. Maybe a candidate from a third party would be an even better consideration. (Can’t seem to be able to do much worse.

I am only expressing here the feelings on immigration, but there are many, many other scathingly oppressive events that have occured toward African Americans that are not being addressed. Dr. King and other civil right leaders that have passed must be turning flips in there graves.

For Shame!

Posted by Slavesworkedforfree on April 4, 2006 at 11:19 PM

I am appalled and amazed at how it seems the Black community is simply pushed aside in so many areas of decisions being made in the U.S. today. I am particulary amazed at how the party that is supposed to be for us is doing little to absolutely nothing to address the needs of African Americans and blue collar whites. But in this case I am speaking more specifically for African Americans. It seems that you are all dancing around not the May, but the “Political Poll.” It is almost like you are blind to what is actually going on around you and what the true feelings are about illegal immigration. Where all of these conflicting polls are coming from, I can’t even imagine. Do you really think you are expressing the true feelings of born in the USA; here through generations; LEGAL; tax paying (when not even getting a fare shake educationally, economically or socially) African Americans. Or is it just that you are pushing us to the side and think that you already have our vote in a nutshell.

It is constantly stated that the illegal (undocumented is double speak) immigrants are only taking jobs that Americans do not want. How crazy! You mean to tell me that suddenly all of the Blacks working in parking lots, doing construction, working as waiters, bus boys and short order cooks, landscapers, cement layers suddenly looked up one day and said oh the illegals are here we don’t need these jobs any more, we’d rather be unemployed and homeless or on the edge of it. We are not ignorant. We are aware that they are taking jobs at a lower rate of pay, and therefore bringing down (or at least stifiling)the rates of pay for others. But, there was just a report out on the conditions of Black men in America. Their rates of unemployment run into the 50 percents and then some. How is this okay? And housing. Yes, we are aware (

By BushScandals

April 7, 2006 11:21 AM | Link to this

The Halliburton Bribe-Apalooza

The scandal: This may not surprise you, but an international consortium of companies, including Halliburton, is alleged to have paid more than $100 million in bribes to Nigerian officials, from 1995 to 2002, to facilitate a natural-gas-plant deal. (Cheney was Halliburton’s CEO from 1995 to 2000.)

The problem: The Foreign Corrupt Practices Act prohibits U.S. companies from bribing foreign officials.

The outcome: A veritable coalition of the willing is investigating the deal, including the Justice Department, the SEC, the Nigerian government and a French magistrate. In June, Halliburton fired two implicated executives.

By I'm a Wanker, Hear Me Roar

April 7, 2006 11:23 AM | Link to this

Insufferable Posted by Tim Tagaris on March 28, 2006 at 03:06 PM Email this Print this Blog this Ladies and gentlemen, meet the very serious, and dangerous, Republican candidate for President of the United States, Tom Tancredo.

Photo Credit: Colorado Political News

For Tancredo’s money, anyone that arrived in the United States more than 48 hours after his final relative, America is full. And not only is it full, but anyone found helping an illegal immigrant in any way, even a church ministering aid, could literally be convicted of a crime. He wants to separate millions of children, American citzens, from their parents who might be illegal immigrants — either that, or just ship those legal citizens from where their parents came. There is no humanity in Tancredo’s proposals, let alone anything that resembles a realistic plan for the future. Tancredo is busy playing a game of checkers while serious legislators are contemplating the next move in a very serious chess match.

In case you need more evidence of just how unhinged Tancredo is, in a symbol of America’s commitment to freedom, liberty, and tolerance, he wants to build a wall along the US/Mexican border. I was telling one of my friends about this the other night, and she thought I was kidding. “A wall?” “Yup, a giant wall along the border.” “You’re not serious,” she asked. “Dead serious, they think that’s the answer, a wall.”

There was a pretty good op-ed in the Chicago Tribune this morning by Jesse Jackson. The thesis, and title, of the piece was it’s time to wage war on povery, not immigrants … and that war takes place on both sides of our borders. Until we get serious about that, the McCain-Kennedy Act is a good first step. The act “provides for meaningful comprehensive reform through measures to strengthen border security, crack down on businesses that hire undocumented workers, provide a path for undocumented immigrants in the U.S. to move out of the shadows and earn citizenship, and provide additional work visas for those seeking to enter the U.S.”

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Oh. My. God.

Posted by Corinne on March 28, 2006 at 04:00 PM

Think about it. Rounding up 11 million people for transport out of the country???? Doesn’t that sound like something that happened in Germany?

I think immigration should be safe and legal. And I do agree that we can not as a country continue to absorb millions and millions of immigrants from Mexico, because Vincente Fox is not taking care of the problems in his own country.

Posted by April on March 28, 2006 at 04:14 PM

I heard a conversation on TV the other day, where the US has already cut the quotas of immigrants WAY back !

I have a new neighbor on our street. She came from Africa. Her husband and 2 kids have been going thru the red tape and procedure to come here for YEARS.

in the meantime, she owns a house, 2 cars, works overtime in her nursing job all the time. Yet INS will not approve the move of her family here!

The wealthy in this country truly want to control everything, including who else can move here.

Posted by PamB on March 28, 2006 at 05:04 PM

I believe we need to rubber stamp Tancredo too. Perhaps Rep. Meek can do the honors.

Posted by PeppermintLizzy on March 28, 2006 at 05:14 PM

Second, and certainly not coincidentally, Monday night’s 12-6, bipartisan vote in the Senate Judiciary Committee sending a comprehensive, compassionate and, yes, moral plan for immigration policy reform to the Senate floor. Makes you proud to be, well, an American.

The proposed legislation offers a hand to the nation’s 12 million illegal immigrants and the possibility of granting them citizenship without forfeiting national security. It creates a guest worker program, includes additional visas for agricultural workers and nurses, and protects from prosecution churches and other humanitarian groups providing food and shelter to illegals. But it also doubles the size of the Border Patrol and calls for the creation of a “virtual” wall of high tech cameras, sensors and unmanned drones to patrol the boundary between the United States and Mexico.

http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/06/03/con06113.html

Posted by PamB on March 28, 2006 at 05:18 PM

I think we all know who is “full” of it. The Republicans have no trouble acting tough and looking stupid.

Let these rich geezers spin and sputter. We all know the Republicans aren’t going to do anything to solve this problem or any other facing this nation.

Instead, they’ll pass a bill that has no funding or true enforcement provisions and give it some stupid sounding name like “Victory for Zero Unemployment” which translates to “Be our Guests and Here’s a Mop….Don’t ask for a Living Wage, Benefits, or Civil Rights” — why should illegals be treated any differently from other American workers who live under the yoke of underemployment and outsourcing?

We all work (legal and illegal) only to pay for the upkeep of the company store — Republican special interests.

Posted by SandyH on March 28, 2006 at 05:22 PM

Posted by PamB on March 28, 2006 at 05:18 PM

Pam, it’s a great bill. It addresses the problem and offers a realistic and fair solution.

But unfortunately, it doesn’t have a chance of being approved by the Republican-controlled House or Senate. I’m surprised the committee approved it…I guess there were a lot of Republican incumbents present who wanted to cover all their bases, while knowing the bill will never actually come to vote.

Let’s hold it in reserve till after the fall election and then re-introduce it when we get control of Congress. People will be amazed when the Democrats (who don’t have an agenda and who are as bad as the Republicans) acutally fix something. It’s been 12 years since this country has made any progress. Twelve years of incompetence and corruption.

Posted by SandyH on March 28, 2006 at 05:37 PM

Just looked at the t-shirt again. This could just as easily be addressing the nation’s obesity epidemic.

Posted by SandyH on March 28, 2006 at 05:43 PM

I am a staunch Democrat , but this is one issue I agree with Tancredo on

Posted by sandman on March 28, 2006 at 05:59 PM

Tancredo…hmmm, doesn’t sound American to me!

Posted by Exile on March 28, 2006 at 08:20 PM

great post Tim!

Posted by jen on March 28, 2006 at 09:26 PM

PAY ATTENTION TO BOTH LETTERS!!!

Tuesday, March 28, 2006

To: All Democrats and Republicans who wish to survive re-election

Dear Folks,

I find this debate about Illegal immigration nuts. I can hardly believe there are so many Republicans who do not want to enforce the laws already on the books. I would fully support any candidate who wishes to follow some of the following guidelines. I absolutely feel things MUST be done in this order;

A. Pay any and all back taxes by showing an employment history

B. Pay a fine of Ten Thousand Dollars even if needing to pay it in steps. Half of all that money will go to education and medical expense repayment to the American tax payer. The other half will go to building a wall along our southern border. Or, a quarter to enforcement, and the other quarter to a wall. Last, START building this wall now, even if only 20 miles a year is completed.

C. Apply for permanent citizenship if that is the intent. Learn English as a primary language, and take classes learning the history of the United States and civics lessons on the responsibility of citizenship.

D. Fully comply with all Local, State, and federal laws already on the books. Such as a drivers license, and other requirements of State laws. Give something back to the local community they live in. Such as cleaning the roadways, or painting over graffiti. Stay arrest free for the duration of this program.

E. Fully complete all these requirements within eight years of applying for this program. If not, move on your own back to Mexico or be deported. If any two parents had children under this program and have not completed the program the children if under eighteen will also be deported unless given up for adoption or turned over to a family member who will take full responsibility for the children.

It is that, Simple!!!

Now I realize this may not be perfect or fair to the illegal immigrants. But remember, they are called Illegal for a reason. Yes, this program would be tough. However, it is the Duty of your elected representatives to be loyal, and fair to the American citizens who sent them to office. Not to be loyal and fair to the lobbyists and special interest groups who flood their offices. If the illegal immigrants from Mexico want the same opportunities in Mexico that they may have in this country, then they need to go home and build up their own country, like the previous immigrants have to this Nation. Maybe instead of protesting for rights in a country they have no right to be in, they should go home and protest in their own country. Take the American flag to Mexico city and wave it around like they have waved the Mexican flag in OUR nation. The loyalties between two nations can not be tolerated. It is loyalty to one or the other.

Sincerely, Mr. & Mrs. Darroll W. McKinney 420 E. McKellips Rd. Mesa, Arizona Dwolfaz@netzero.com

PS: Please send this to all your Congress people, friends, and family. I still think Bush MUST go, he is the embodiment of corporate greed in America on every issue.

Posted by wolf on March 28, 2006 at 10:03 PM

Cant stand G bush, would not trust him to babysit my grandkids. BUT,we need all illegal aliens out now! We need to do whatever it takes to secure the border. Big business and big drugs what the border to stay the way it is now! Bring the troops back from Irag and put them on the border! Have voted democratic for forty years, but if my local candidate candidates want to give drivers lisc. to illegal aliens I will vote for another party if necessary!

Posted by olddemocrat on March 28, 2006 at 10:59 PM

From the Washington Post (The GOP Walks A Border Tightrope, 3.29.06):

And indeed, Democrats aren’t doing much in the way of capitalizing. A New American Media poll of legal immigrants, released yesterday, found that while only 22 percent said the Republican Party was doing a good job on immigration, the approval rating for the Democrats wasn’t all that impressive either: 38 percent. “There’s anger out there” among immigrants, says Democratic pollster Sergio Bendixen, who conducted the survey. “But there’s also a feeling that the Democrats are not much better.”

A few Democrats on this post show why … I guess it isn’t so easy to shed the racially elitist principles this party was founded upon. The immigration debate is not about security or jobs or the rule of law. Those are smokescreens for the real issue: language and culture.

Let’s be honest, the real push for Sensenbrenner’s legislation is the mantra: “Not another Mexican.” For fear of salsa, or Spanish-language commercials, or competitive baseball … who knows. And if the demagogues can put a WMD in one Mexican’s hand and the lost job of a “real American” in the other, that much stronger the sensatinalistic argument … right?

If you’re interested in what’s really at stake in this debate, follow the link; it’s a bit longwinded, but worth it … it’s a reminder about what this great country is supposed to be about.

Posted by M_Godot on March 29, 2006 at 12:13 AM

Oh, Give me a break! Typical republicans….. I wonder what things would be like if the Native Americans said that.Ha Ha Ha !

Posted by FreedomOfSpeechForComprehensiveImmigrationReform on March 29, 2006 at 12:13 AM

Here’s the URL again:

http://www.newspapertree.com/view_article.sstg?c=ff96aab91c0f4423&mc=5d7173b880bb4faf

Posted by M_Godot on March 29, 2006 at 12:14 AM

Here’s the URL:

http://www.newspapertree.com/view_article.sstg?c=ff96aab91c0f4423&mc=5d7173b880bb4faf

Posted by M_Godot on March 29, 2006 at 12:15 AM

The kicker is that most of these “illegal aliens” ARE native American, from farming communities in Mexico and C. America … think about it.

Posted by M_Godot on March 29, 2006 at 12:19 AM

M_Godot,

I’m going to have to agree with your argument. You said,

“The immigration debate is not about security or jobs or the rule of law. Those are smokescreens for the real issue: language and culture.”

I totally agree.That’s exactly what it is.All these “Kick-em Outters” need to put their money where their hypocrit mouth is.I challenge them all to not touch a single piece of fruit or vegitables; Not fresh,frozen,canned,juiced or sundried.NO FRUIT/VEGITABLE PRODUCT at all.When they go to Mc D’s ,scrape the lettuce off the Big Macs because chances are, a “MEXICAN” picked that lettuce!Also,they can’t have any coffee becaus ethem beans were picked by somebody too…….

They would’nt last a single day!LOL!

P.S. ….AND ,I don’t want to see a single one of them alchies out there drinkin and partying on Cinco De Mayo either! Ha Ha Ha

“No Cornona for you!”

Posted by FreedomOfSpeechForComprehensiveImmigrationReform on March 29, 2006 at 12:24 AM

Here Dude, You’re doing it wrong.Here’s the link:

http://www.newspapertree.com/view_article.sstg?c=ff96aab91c0f4423&mc=5d7173b880bb4faf

Posted by FreedomOfSpeechForComprehensiveImmigrationReform on March 29, 2006 at 12:27 AM

Absolutly REDICULOUS. Sitting around my lunch table, I’ve overheard jokes about “Walls of America,” but I never envisioned anyone would be so exclusivist that they would actualy think about creating one of these abominations! The phrase “America is Full” is also arrogant. Who does he think he is? Does he honestly think he’ll be able to hold an office with THAT motto? That’s denying everything that this country stands for! For god sakes, has the Republicans forgotten what is sketched into the Statue of Liberty? Hell, I may be only 15, but I know for sure how to tell right from wrong - and THIS is completely unexceptible.

Posted by FallenAngelOA on March 29, 2006 at 12:35 AM

Posted by FallenAngelOA on March 29, 2006 at 12:35 AM ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It is unexcusable.Your’re right about that.Now,Go to bed!It’s a school night! LOL …;D

Posted by FreedomOfSpeechForComprehensiveImmigrationReform on March 29, 2006 at 12:42 AM

Lmao, Spring break!!! That’s the only reason why i’m still up!

Posted by FallenAngelOA on March 29, 2006 at 12:48 AM

Lmao, Spring break!!! That’s the only reason why i’m still up!

Posted by FallenAngelOA on March 29, 2006 at 12:48 AM

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Oh Yeah.That’s right.Okay,Carry on then. LOL!

Posted by FreedomOfSpeechForComprehensiveImmigrationReform on March 29, 2006 at 12:52 AM

I am not some nutcase racist….far from it. I live in Texas where the illegal immigration issue affects daily life. I work in the healthcare industry and you just can’t understand how much of a problem this is to tax paying Americans. Do you understand how many middle class Americans feel about this? I am very disappointed in the stand my party has taken on this issue. I feel deserted as an American who votes, pays taxes, and plays by the rules. We should focus on companies who hire people illegally and fine them enough to make them stop. I understand that life is bad in Mexico. But perhaps the demonstrators would be better served to protest the state of their country, not ours. And the only real debate here should be our national security. We must close our borders to any and all people who try to enter illegally. What good does it do to talk about port security or airplane security if anyone and everyone can waltz across the border? How scary is that????

Posted by ProudDemTx on March 29, 2006 at 01:09 AM

I know how you feel, ProudDemTex. (Not in the taxpayer way, obviously.) National Security IS at stake with our borders being widely open. A very high stake, I might add. I’m all for the idea of narrowing the borders. But don’t close them. If we close them, we’re denying the natural rights by Locke that we were founded on. Insted of closure, we need better security. Since we’re so damn into security anyway, it won’t be to hard - we’ve got enough money in it. :\ -FaOA

Posted by FallenAngelOA on March 29, 2006 at 01:24 AM

Posted by ProudDemTx on March 29, 2006 at 01:09 AM ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I know all to well where you’re coming from.I’m from San Diego California where I not only saw the circumstance in question, I lived with it, worked with it, shopped with it and …….BENIFITED from it.Every day, I saw it on the Blue Line Trollies…..the entire train would be jam packed with people looking for a better life.I knew where the little Pawn Shops that sold the fake I.D.’s were….I’m talkin, the whole “enchilada” but,I’m sorry.We waited too damn long to take the position of just tossing them out.We knew about this ten,maybe twenty years ago and the same OLD FARTS in Washington today are the same OLD FARTS that were in office back then and they did absolutly NOTHING.That’s why, they look like stupid fools trying to pass drastic, racist legislation like the (NON-Senesenbreener BS) They can’t claim Post 911 concerns about that either because it’s been SIX years since that Bull Sh*t happened.

So,it’s an election year.The Republicans are feeling pressure from their “Trailor Trash Constituents” (Not you.I’m sure you’re a decent person LOL)and they want to kick the illegals out.I am not ashamed of my party for passing Comprehensive, HUMANE Immigration Reform.They are working hard to be fair to ALL persons involved.Noone is saying jack about the total EXPLOITATION of these people either.”Oh,who cares about them.They’re Illegal” right?

In addittion to that, as far as the Heath Care goes,let me tell you a little true story:

Last Summer, I got caught out there having to go to the Hospital Emergency Room with no Health Insurance.They did a half a* job and sent me home.I am STILL paying that friggen Medical Bill off today ! Now, I could say to myself “Damn the Illegals to Hell ! If it were not for them, I would be able to afford Health Insurance and my bill wouldn’t be this large today!” …OR….. I could say….”Damn those Republicans! Damn them to Hell! If it were not for their policies and giving in to lobbiest in the Health Care Industry, I would be able to afford Heath Insurance and I would have paid off my bill by now! Awwwwg!”

I choose to damn the Republicans.Thank you very much! ;D

Posted by FreedomOfSpeechForComprehensiveImmigrationReform on March 29, 2006 at 01:46 AM

I see many problems inherent in our countries lax stance on immigration. It poses several problems that every one of us will end up dealing with.

I think we should build this wall, and use deadly force to maintain its integrity. Immigration is what this country was built upon. Let people immigrate, but they need to do it legally. I would like to see all illegal aliens returned to their homeland with a GPS device implanted deep with-in their brain, so if they return they can be found and executed. One step further, we should announce that we will grant citizenship to all illegals residing if 1) they have been law abiding and 2) if they simply apply. If they fail to meet these criteria, they should be returned to their country of origin and forever banished from our country with the GSP chip planted in their brains.

First everyone always blames Bush for outsourcing, yet it was in fact Bill Clinton who signed it into existence (NAFTA). And if outsourcing is such a problem, how about the billions of dollars being earned by illegal aliens from our neighbor to the south. The problem here, is that it is going to Mexico (or the other countries but Mexico is the greatest problem) not being spent here, thus damaging our economy.

Immigration is a legal process and is available to any non-American citizen, if they are not a convicted felon as well as some other reasonable criteria. My forefathers as well as pretty much every one whose family has been here for more than a generation signed the book when they came here from where ever. I expect no less from any one wanting to live here in America. That is the law. And like any law, if you break it you should be punished.

Posted by tonytruit on March 29, 2006 at 01:54 AM

What the immigration debate should be about — what it’s really about on the immigrants’ side (as opposed to the culture issue on the neocons’ side) — is keeping families together. Who’s ever tried to read the INA here? I have. It’s a mess. Families who go the “legal” route have to wait for years, sometimes as much as 13 years, to join their loved ones in the United States. I’m talking kids, parents, grandparents.

Some people just don’t want them here at all, but that’s not good enough under the Constitution (see the 5th/14th Amdmts. and apply strict scrutiny — Do we have a compelling state interest here? Is this law narrowly tailored to that interest? Yes on the first; No on the second.)

Posted by M_Godot on March 29, 2006 at 01:57 AM

Posted by tonytruit on March 29, 2006 at 01:54 AM

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Please come back “after” the demons have been excersised and maybe we can talk………….

freak!

Posted by FreedomOfSpeechForComprehensiveImmigrationReform on March 29, 2006 at 02:00 AM

C’Mon Dems. This is the immigration message: FAMILIIES FIRST! UNITY OF THE FAMILY!

This is how you 360 the discussion on the Republicans. Make the issue about something they honk their horn about. FAMILY.

This is what they did to you with affirmative action in the mid-90’s. They stole your thunder by turning the debate around, making affirmative action about DISCRIMINATION, not EQUALITY. If you have anybody worth their salt in your camp, the immigration discussion will be about FAMILY by the end of the week — and not the jobs/security nonsense neocons trying to dump on this issue. If we’re truly trying to improve the moral fibre of this country, it isn’t by pulling the rug out from under millions of hard-working, law-abiding immigrants who have been here for years if not decades.

On the other hand, the jail construction/management lobby loves the House bill I’m sure.

Posted by M_Godot on March 29, 2006 at 02:06 AM

Posted by tonytruit on March 29, 2006 at 01:54 AM

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Mr. TonyTruit, I am SHOCKED and DISGUSTED with your view on human life. What you are suggesting is terroristic and undemocratic. Do you really want to see innocent people who want a better life but don’t know how to get it be killed? Are you that desperate for quick and brutal ‘justice’? Concider what you say carefully. You’re begining to sound very disturbing. Implanting GPS Devices into people of another country is REDICULOUS and it can be looked apon as espionage, when you look at the bigger picture. (Even though it might not appear so, you can still fight it against it as if it were.) -FallenAngelOA http://fallenangeloa.blogspot.com

Posted by FallenAngelOA on March 29, 2006 at 02:07 AM

Tonytruit seems to love the law (even the immoral ones) but he clearly doesn’t know it.

Quiz then: (1) What’s the March 2006 estimated wait time for a family-based 2B visa (unmarried sons and daughters over 21 years old) for a Mexican citizen? (2) What is the worldwide limit on the # of preference visas the US may distribute per year? (3) What is the limit for Mexico? (hint: 7% of the worldwide limit)

Posted by M_Godot on March 29, 2006 at 02:15 AM

Posted by M_Godot on March 29, 2006 at 02:06 AM

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You’re right.I just got carried away in the nonesense of it all.I mean, it’s just so totally outreagous that….hell.I get what you’re saying though and you right.It’s about families.Let’s show America just how much the Republicans are Biggot Hypocrites and liars.This is the perfect platform for that.

Posted by FreedomOfSpeechForComprehensiveImmigrationReform on March 29, 2006 at 02:20 AM

(1) Approx. 14 years. The State Dept. is currently serving 2B visa applicants who applied on or before Feb. 15, 1992.

(2) The worldwide annual limit for family-based visas is 226,000.

(3) Section 202 prescribes that the per-country limit for preference immigrants is set at 7% of the total annual family-sponsored and employment-based preference limits, i.e., 25,620. The dependent area limit is set at 2%, or 7,320.

http://travel.state.gov/visa/frvi/bulletin/bulletin_2805.html

Posted by M_Godot on March 29, 2006 at 02:20 AM

Cool, rock on FreedomOfSpeechForComprehensiveImmigrationReform (what a name!).

Posted by M_Godot on March 29, 2006 at 02:22 AM

Cool, rock on FreedomOfSpeechForComprehensiveImmigrationReform (what a name!).

Posted by M_Godot on March 29, 2006 at 02:22 AM ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

No Problemo,Amigo! LOL!

It’s always Freedom of speech, but then, I add a cause that I feel very passionatly about after.This week, it’s ……

ComprehensiveImmigrationReform

Then, when we finally get some legislation passed, I’ll go back to FreedomOfSpeechForRussFeingold2008!

Posted by FreedomOfSpeechForComprehensiveImmigrationReform on March 29, 2006 at 02:27 AM

Oh, those of you who are “Kick-em out” Happy who claim that the position you take is NOT racists, Please tell me why noone threw a fit when that little Ice Skating White Girl from CANADA got her Legal status just so she could “SKATE” for the U.S.?

Please, I’m anxious to hear your responses……

Ha ha Ha . Who knew Bigotry and Racism could be so darn funny?

Posted by FreedomOfSpeechForComprehensiveImmigrationReform on March 29, 2006 at 03:48 AM

BTW…….

Statement of Senator Russ Feingold On The Immigration Reform Bill Passed Out of the Senate Judiciary Committee March 28, 2006

At the beginning of this debate, I said I would support meaningful, pragmatic, comprehensive immigration reform. I voted for the bill that the Senate Judiciary Committee approved today because it meets that test. It is not a perfect bill, but it recognizes that we will all be better off if Congress creates a realistic immigration system that allows foreign workers to come into the country legally to work when there is truly a need for their labor, and that ensures our government knows who is already here. We can and must improve our efforts to protect our borders, but we cannot focus exclusively on enforcement. My continued support for this legislation will depend on whether the improvements adopted today in the Judiciary Committee remain after the full Senate considers the bill.

Posted by FreedomOfSpeechForComprehensiveImmigrationReform on March 29, 2006 at 04:24 AM

This guy has about as much chance of having his Presidential candidacy dreams come true as the current President does of turning his Nobel Prize nomination into the real thing. That said, it is still sad to see such closed-mindedness.

Posted by Frrom on March 29, 2006 at 06:05 AM

If I were an Emperor I would build a wall along the Mexican border that was 1000 feet wide by 1000 feet tall. I would decree that the wall could not come down for 1000 years under penalty of death. I would want it to be as big or bigger than the wall of China. I would divert 100% of all the available cement, stone and steel towards this project.

I would then decree that nobody with a Hispanic sounding name, except for the Tancredo family, would ever, ever be allowed to work the farms of America for 1000 years, or till the price of a pound of California strawberries, and peppers and lettuce cost $1000 per pound; or till all the white trash of America start heading out to the farms to work the land to feed their white trash children.

It all sounds ridiculous and hateful doesn’t it?

This country has lost it footing. This country was built and continues to be built on the backs of unpaid and low paid immigrants, for God’s sake: Black slaves, Chinese laborers, Irish men and women, Italians, Germans, Jews, Mexicans, Central and South Americans …. and on and on.

Posted by Julio on March 29, 2006 at 09:20 AM

I think it is possible to build a wall along the Mexican border. It is only about two thousand miles long. Look at The Great Wall in China. If the Chinese were able to build a wall of four thousand miles long several hundred years ago without any modern technology, why wouldn’t Americans be able to build a wall of half the length now with all the modern technology?

A wall like The Great Wall in China will not only protect Americans, it can also become a tourist attraction and provide jobs for Mexicans. They can work on the building of the wall. They can also work on making it more attractive to tourists by doing things like building Little Mexicos along the border. They can even build tunnels underneath the wall like those tunnels built by the Palestinians in Gaza. The tunnels can be a tourist attraction as well.

Posted by dressking on March 29, 2006 at 10:26 AM

I think it is possible to build a wall along the Mexican border. It is only about two thousand miles long. Look at The Great Wall in China. If the Chinese were able to build a wall of four thousand miles long several hundred years ago without any modern technology, why wouldn’t Americans be able to build a wall of half the length now with all the modern technology?

A wall like The Great Wall in China will not only protect Americans, it can also become a tourist attraction and provide jobs for Mexicans. They can work on the building of the wall. They can also work on making it more attractive to tourists by doing things like building Little Mexicos along the border. They can even build tunnels underneath the wall like those tunnels built by the Palestinians in Gaza. The tunnels can be a tourist attraction as well.

Posted by dressking on March 29, 2006 at 10:28 AM

If there were 11 million little white ice skating girls who came in from Canada then you can compare the two. Look, I never said keep out only the Mexicans. I am saying we need to keep a tighter control on who is entering our country from anywhere in the world. If that is racist then you and I have a different definition of the word.

Posted by ProudDemTx on March 29, 2006 at 10:34 AM

Walls are not going to stop TERRORISTS from entering the US.

Coming from a Canadian border town, I know there are places in VT, ME, etc, where people can walk across the border, no controls, nothing! It does not take much to drive across the bridges in NY State, etc. A check to ask where you are headed, are you American citizens, etc.

So any talk about discouraging Terrorists with walls, is ludicrous !

Posted by PamB on March 29, 2006 at 10:38 AM

Economic power is the ultimate weapon. Everyone who is getting the shaft should be selective about where they spend their money and speak out about why they are doing it. We have been divided by these Republicans with nonsense and have forgotten the ultimate weapon that can’t be controlled or propagandized. There simply isn’t enough right wing loonies to keep anybody afloat. African Americans once used it with great success but stopped and now they are loosing what they gained little by little. Latinos need some leadership that endorses selective spending and they will have fair treatment I guarantee.

Posted by Tug on March 29, 2006 at 11:19 AM

I work in the healthcare industry and you just can’t understand how much of a problem this is to tax paying Americans.

If we had a national health program, you Texans wouldn’t have to shoulder all that burden.

Posted by SandyH on March 29, 2006 at 02:37 PM

I think a lot of us wouldn’t be here today if there had been quotas when our forefathers entered this country.

Didn’t we have an open border policy for almost 150 years? If you could find your way to America, they would let you in…all you had to do is stop off somewhere and register and then apply for citizenship after five years? Our unguarded borders tell the illegals that that policy is still intact….we aren’t taking it seriously.

You can’t send back 12 million people. A wall didn’t work for the Chinese. But setting up real border security with lots of guards and surveillence equipment might stem the tide…and help with homeland security.

But the only way to really solve the problem is to arrest the employers hiring these illegals and raise the pay for those jobs currently being done by the undocumented, so Americans already living here fill them instead. If there aren’t any job openings, they won’t bother to keep coming.

Those with children born here are never going to leave, and it would be a disaster even trying to find foster homes for these kids when their parents were deported. Politicans who tell you otherwise are a bunch of opportunitists with big mouths that don’t match the size of their brains.

Posted by SandyH on March 29, 2006 at 03:18 PM

What does the Domocratic Party now stand for? Excercise your freedom of speech and you are threatened, labeled racist, or called racial slurs like white trash. Freedom of discussion not welcomed here! Shame!

Do we stand for living wages, job security without outsourcing or insourcing, fair labor laws and hiring practices, non-discrimination against disabled workers (disabled workers have been shut out of our workforce, they cannot compete in a minimum wage economy), immigration policies that have a balance of immigrants from all races (Haitians not welcome here!), enforced health and safety standards (minimum wage jobs do not have human resource personnel that comply with our labor laws), trade unions (in our race to the bottom, we can learn about unions in history class),poor Americans if you were displaced by unfair competition and illegal labor practices we will remedy this by allowing your illegally taken job to remain in the hands of the lawbreaker for the next ten years (This is fair, we do not enforce fair labor laws anymore), we must become the third world to compete against the third world (except our rich class), environmental laws (sorry, not workable with mass immigration and extreme overpopulation.

We are basically now against every liberal ideal we stood for in the past 50 years, and throw in pro war for good measure!

Posted by forthepoor on March 29, 2006 at 04:11 PM

My party has been taken over by corporate interests who want cheap labor and a million other special interest groups. They are no longer much different than the Republicans.There was a time when I was proud to be a Democrat,but lately I am having second thoughts.Illegals do nothing but push down wages. There were plenty of people working in restaurants, carpentry work,motels,etc.before they came here.If illegals were sent home there would be Americans doing those jobs again. The difference would be that employers would have to pay a living wage.When I saw them marching in our cities carrying Mexican flags and demanding rights that even Americans don’t have such as health care, I was furious as were many of my other Democrat friends. Why do people think all Democrats are for illegals. This is absolute propoganda. I am ready for a good third party. The Democrats are going to lose moderate voters.

Posted by sandman on March 29, 2006 at 06:47 PM

Texans aren’t the only ones shouldering the burden of illegal immigrants on the healthcare industry. Every single American family with children who can’t afford medical care in this country is paying the price.

I resent the earlier remark made in reference to me about trailers, white trash, racist,etc. I am an American who has supported my country and my party my entire life. I have believed in the Democratic Party and worked for it for over 20 years because I truly felt it was the party of the people, the party that cared about the working men and women of this country. To come here and have someone make remarks like that because I dared to disagree and exercise my right to freedom of speech is a disgrace. I would have expected as much from some neocons but from Democrats? This is a sad day.

Posted by ProudDemTx on March 29, 2006 at 09:01 PM

If there were 11 million little white ice skating girls who came in from Canada then you can compare the two. Look, I never said keep out only the Mexicans. I am saying we need to keep a tighter control on who is entering our country from anywhere in the world. If that is racist then you and I have a different definition of the word.

Posted by ProudDemTx on March 29, 2006 at 10:34 AM ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

WEAK argument! Very weak!

Posted by FreedomOfSpeechForComprehensiveImmigrationReform on March 30, 2006 at 12:51 AM

In order to do anything about the “illegal” alien problem, the U.S. will have to actually define what an illegal alien is. Thousands of people cross our borders every day for one purpose or another. Very little documentation is required to cross the northern or southern borders and U.S. citizens may cross into neighboring nations with similarly little documentation. Building a fence or wall would be a very expensive and ultimately a rather weak defense against illegal crossings. Documentation should be required of all employees, regardless of their origin. There are laws enough requiring this and all employers are supposed to keep a copy of all employees legal documents in some place. Employers suspected of employing anyone illegally should be subject to verification of all employees’ legal work status. If documentation cannot be produced, the employer should be fined and or jailed with increasing punitive sanctions for repeat offenders. English as a primary language would be nice, but there are many American citizens who do not speak English as a primary language, for instance in Puerto Rico, a U.S, territory. Language is not necessarily a major barrier to interpersonal relations nor should it be a barrier to legal employment. There are more than 200 Native American languages and the United States is not a part of, though we are an ally of England. The President of the United States should not make statements to the effect that there is employment available in the United States that U.S. citizens are unwilling to do. This has the ring of racism or at least ethnocentrism as it suggests that there are others that are willing to do work that is unfit for U.S. workers. Perhaps the emplyment the president is referring to is servile positions on his Texas ranch. There should not be any employment in the U.S. that U.S. citizens are unwilling to do. Persons living in the U.S. illegally should be deported to their nation of origin. Any family members that may have been born in the U.S. to parents of non-resident aliens should be deported as well. It is not fair to break families up for purposes of enforcing immigration laws, nor shouls illegals be allowed to stay in the U.S. simply because they have children born here.

Posted by fang on March 30, 2006 at 03:05 PM

That is not a bad idea, a little radical but if that’s what we need to sioop the imful of ilegals into this country then do it. I am a second generation immigrant. These illegals are breaking the law. There are lots of immigrants standing in line to come here. Why should they be afforded a free ticket.

Posted by wiki on March 30, 2006 at 09:07 PM

The right wing Republicans racist? Just because they are the former Dixiecrats, who left the Democrat party when JFK and LBJ started saying black people should be treated like human beings? Oh hell yes. They invented racism. If we want to slow the influx of Mexican immigrants, we need to demand that NAFTA be renegotiated. The Mexican farm economy is down the tubes because NAFTA allowed cheap subsidized grain from the big agribusinesses in the US to be dumped on the Mexican market. Because of the NAFTA treaty, Mexico couldn’t stop them. It has destroyed Mexico’s domestic farm economy and dumped thousands of farmers on the job market to compete with the other workers for the low paying jobs that the maquiladoras offer. Pretty slick huh? In the name of “Free” trade the multi-nationals have taken American jobs shipped them to Mexico, and then created a huge pool of hungry workers who are competing for those jobs, which will keep the cost of labor low. Who cares if these people starve, they’re just a bunch of Indios. We’ll just build a fence, and not care about Truth, Justice, the American Way or that Christ really taught that we should treat our fellow human beings with love, and justice because they, like us are made in God’s image. The really chilling thing is that this whole immigrant thing has only come up, since the Republicans realized that they are going to have a fight for this legislative race. So this is the gay-marriage-pro-life, ploy for this campaign. “Ya know, Them commies had a wunnerful idea. Let’s build our own “Berlin Wall” to keep them Mexicans out. We can really work up them voters into a nice case of paranoia.” Nice people these Republicans, only too willing to build a campaign for continuing their program of greed and corruption on the backs of hungry people.

Posted by Butte on March 31, 2006 at 12:06 AM

Tom Tancredo is a American hero. We need more like him. I’m sick of my party endorsing slave labor such as illegals and visa workers. The current immigration bill the Senate is voting on is a death bill for the American middle class. How do you expect real Americans to vote for Democrats when Democrats do not support America’s working middle class? At least some republicans know that the illegal and visa workers are destroying our way of life. Politicians like Kennedy, Liberman and McCain are traitors to the middle class. There is not one Democrat who is actively trying to protect American workers. There never was a worker shortage I’m sick of hearing that there is. Underage child sex slaves have been brought here on H1B visas (The Reddy case in Oakland) thats how bad they are. But no one cares about that as long as corporate America gets there cheap labor at all cost. Don’t insult a real American hero like Tancredo. Emulate him and help save the country and our Democratic party. Stick with your corporate slave trading mentality and not only will the Democrats continue to lose but so will the American middle and lower class. The American worker is discriminated in all sectors thanks to “corporate politicians” like Kennedy, Fienstien, McCain, Lieberman and Bush. We need more like Tancredo not less. Tancredo goes overboard so that he can negotiate a good middle ground. Congress passed a good bill, the Senate is out to kill it and the American middle class. WAKE UP..

Posted by HiTechWorker on March 31, 2006 at 12:24 AM

Ouch! My eyes are strained….Why?

I just went back over ALL the post (TWICE) to find the words “White Trash” because some idiot here lied and acted like White Folks were under attack for being Anti-Mexican Illegals Immigration…….I found nothing of the sort.So,Mr/Mrs ((forthepoor))

It appears, you are a liar and a distracter.When you said,

“What does the Domocratic Party now stand for? Excercise your freedom of speech and you are threatened, labeled racist, or called racial slurs like white trash. Freedom of discussion not welcomed here! Shame!”

BTW, it’s D(E)mocratic Party…..Anyway,s noone has been called White Trash for expressing Free Speech at all.That is a lie.We are not Republicans.Everyone is welcome to their opinion and we embrace Free Speech for ALL sides, not just the ONE side.I can’t just sit here and let people attack my Party with a bold faced lie and not say anything.So,no your not “White Trash” because you want to excersise your freedom of speech.You’re more than welcome to say things like:

“America Is Full”

“If the illegal immigrants from Mexico want the same opportunities in Mexico that they may have in this country, then they need to go home and build up their own country, like the previous immigrants have to this Nation.”

“BUT,we need all illegal aliens out now! We need to do whatever it takes to secure the border”

“I think we should build this wall, and use deadly force to maintain its integrity. Immigration is what this country was built upon. Let people immigrate, but they need to do it legally. I would like to see all illegal aliens returned to their homeland with a GPS device implanted deep with-in their brain, so if they return they can be found and executed.”

………No you and the others who made these comments are not “White Trash”…….that would actually be a complement to what you really are.Yes,indeed while we ALL know what “White Trash” is: After all, It was White people who invented the name to call members of their own race that who we’re not up to their standards,I would not consider those who made these comments “White Trash” I would submit that some of them have psychological issues,some may be under the control of a hateful demonic “spirit” and some may be just “hard core-republicans” pretending to be democrats but I don’t think anyone of those people are simply “White Trash”

I hope that clears up any confusion so that we may all continue this debate without the lies and the distractions.

Thank You,

Freedom Ring, Freedom Ring…….

Posted by FreedomOfSpeechForComprehensiveImmigrationReform on March 31, 2006 at 01:18 AM

Posted by HiTechWorker at March 31, 2006 12:24 AM

No,YOU Wake Up!

First of all, I find it hard to believe that you are a Democrat because your ignorance defies liberal logic and ideology; However, I will give you the benefit of the doubt. You think Tom Tancredo is an American hero? You think a Right Wing Republican can save “our” Party? This gives me further reason to question your party affiliation. Listen, if you are what you claim, which is a democrat, you would understand that NO ONE is advocating any type of amnesty for the illegal ones , but we are keeping in tune with this party’s core beliefs. We understand that this issue is not just two sides,” pick one and hope you get re-elected.” That’s the position of the Republicans. We Democrats take this issue very seriously. We know we must protect our borders. We know we must take action with respect to the 11 MILLION people illegally here. We also understand that because Republicans sat on their fat azzes and allowed this problem to grow and that it was Ronald Reagan (R) who enacted this stupid policy that created this whole issue, we must, as always, come behind our retarded opposition and fix their mistakes. We understand that if we listen to the crazy ideals proposed by our retarded Republicans that there will be young children ORPHANED by the masses. We can’t uproot these children because they are United States Citizens. We understand that husbands and wives would be separated under the nonsensenbrenner (R) House Bill, that college students and employees would be uprooted; employers would face serious economic hardship until they could find replacements. The Democrats believe in finding a WISE and HUMANE solution to this problem as opposed to the Republicans who are responsible for it and want to just toss it all out when it doesn’t work for them.

The fact that Democrats have had to come behind the retarded Republicans and fix or complete their policies is nothing new. The fact that Republicans base all their policies on whether or not it will get them the political standing they seek, is also nothing new:

1.) President Abraham Lincoln (R) Emancipated Slavery only to stop the Civil War, yet allowed for their to be Segregation as well as throwing blacks in jail if they were unemployed yet did nothing to get the NEWLY freed slaved jobs. 2.) Democrats, several years later had to come and fix Lincolns pathetic self-serving policy and enact the Civil Rights laws that helped the Blacks 3.) Republicans during the Reagan and Daddy Bush years raised the Federal deficit and as always, the Democrats had to come fix that. We all know we’re going to now have to come behind the Chief of all Retards, George W. Bush and fix all his mistakes.

In the end, the Democrats have always cared about all the people and that’s what they are doing now. They are working in a bi-partisan manner with the “Fair” Right Republicans as opposed to the “Far” Right Republicans to create COMPREHENSIVE and FAIR legislation with respect to the Illegals . After all, they aren’t going anywhere any time soon so we better figure a way to be fair or else, this nation will be dealing with TWO DISGRUNTLED minority races who are embittered because of the way this nation treated its ancestors and they themselves……and you KNOW who I’m talking about!

Thank You

Posted by FreedomOfSpeechForComprehensiveImmigrationReform on March 31, 2006 at 03:05 AM

FreedomOfSpeechForComprehensiveImmigrationReform This is not the place to threaten or slander Democrats, if you have a comment to make on issues, make it. Other peoples posts here are none of your business. They are not posting to you, this is not your private blog, they are posting their opinions on issues for others to read. Please keep your personal attacks to yourself and only post on the current political issues if you can manage that!

Posted by forthepoor on March 31, 2006 at 03:09 AM

Liberalism depends on law to regulate the powerful corporate interests and provide the working classes and lower classes a level playing field. Corporate interests depend on mass immigration to maintain growth for their profit margins and to depress wages of the masses. Mass immigration overloads the social support systems and thus we see large cutbacks in those eligible for services and the average amount of support provided cut by 75%, a virtual end to medical aid. Thus mass immigration is bringing an end to the social welfare state as the right wing has expected, mass immigration has ocurred due to right wing policies. The mass immigration of an anti-abortion religion population has also driven Republicans to continue these mass immigration policies. As our population grows from 300 million to 400 million social control will require the end to freedoms like personal privacy, fascist government will thrive. Social pressures will increase crime, discontent, the power of the police state will increase. Our response to these policies seems to be to relax all of the liberal laws that control corporate power: fair employment laws, civil rights laws, environmental laws, minimum wage laws, health and safety laws, and yes, fair immigration laws. Racism is only allowing one color, one religion, one culture to migrate to our country. We as liberals want balanced immigration law that allows an equal number from each race, from each religion, from each culture, and regulated to not overwhelm our wage base and social systems. Remember the fights in Florida over Cubans being welcome and poor Haitians being shipped back to Haiti, black immigration was deliberately limited. The cuban vote in Florida gave us George Bush!

Just say no to NAFTA and CAFTA, they will both hurt poor farmers and encourage more illegal immigration.

Posted by forthepoor on March 31, 2006 at 03:31 AM

Webmaster please control your blog and pull posts with personal attacks!

Posted by forthepoor on March 31, 2006 at 03:51 AM

Letter to DNC: Once again I feel compelled to contact the DNC. I am absolutely appalled at the DNC pandering stance with ILLEGAL immigration. To reinforce the insulting “They do jobs Americans won’t do” is not only insulting but wrong. Americans do all sorts of jobs - what Americans don’t want to do is be exploited by corporations and the agricultural conglomerates. The fact that the Democratic Party does is disgusting. You should be working FOR Americans who voted for you NOT drooling over future votes of people who broke American law to sneak into the USA. Legal immigrants MUST jump thru hoops to come here & submit to health & background scrutiny as well as agree that they are ineligible US welfare, unemployment, etc. Meanwhile ILLEGAL aliens drain our hospitals, schools & other social benefit programs Your FIRST priority should be in securing our borders. PERIOD. Watching lawbreaking illegal aliens clog our streets, waving the flags of their nations, demanding American rights is disgusting. I am alarmed to know that the DNC has chosen to overlook the negative impact of illegal immigration on Black Americans & legal Hispanic Americans—just so you can garner future votes. Plain & simple the DNC is greedy for votes.

I have vociferously supported the Democratic Party for over 30 years - now I find you are no longer the party that supports American citizens. Now I find that I am teetering on the brink of the sad knowledge that my vote for Democratic Party may never happen again.

Posted by OPINIONATOR on March 31, 2006 at 09:09 AM

I cannot for the life of me see why the Democrats insist on pandering to the “Illegal” immigrants. They’ve depressed wages across the board for all middle America, driven up the cost of our health care by using emergency rooms as their primary care options, and they’re breaking the back of the union work force, by going to work in the construction trades, and mid-level factory jobs. Not to mention that their using forged documents, assuming a false identity, and entering the United States without a visa of any kind. All of which are crimes. I remember a time when the democratic party stood up for the working, and middle class in America. I’m disapointed to wake up today to find that they’ve sold their political values for mere vote mongering. Illegal, is just that, illegal. You wouldn’t call a illegal drug dealer an undocumented pharmacist. Stand up for American’s first, and everyone else on the planet second. I’ve been a loyal democrat, but you will never get another vote from me if you pass the immigration reform bill.

Posted by nomadrider on March 31, 2006 at 09:22 AM

Our leaders have been so dishonest with us about the scope of the influx of illegals I favor booting them out of office.

After all , the immigrants have not exactly behaved honorably while in this country . The crime rate among them is totally unacceptable . I have watched my city turn from a pleasant low crime community to a high crime third world hell hole . People are sick to death of it and I don’t blame them .

Posted by texasyellowdog on March 31, 2006 at 11:17 AM

Here we go again. This is the single-issue-voter issue for this election. Trust the Republicans to find an issue which will get a knee-jerk reaction from so many people, and which has the potential to take everybody’s minds off the real issues. First, let’s clarify a few things: Lincoln has nothing to do with the reconstruction of the South and the rise of segregation. Booth shot him before that phase started, it was Andrew Johnson (also a Republican) who oversaw that era. Poor Mexicans, who are mostly Indians or Mestizos (mixed bloods) have little or no say in their government. The government of Mexico is mainly run by the descendants of Spanish colonials, European immigrants who came to Mexico to exploit it for economic gain after the liberation from Spain and many Southerners who went to Mexico after the Civil War. They basically “Jim Crow” the indians. The continued mistreatment of the Mayans in Southern Mexico gave rise to a present day resurgence of the Zapatistas under Sub-commandante Marcos. We are being hurt by NAFTA and other not-so-free trade agreements that the Republicans and Republi-lites have foisted on the American people by lying about the benefits of such agreements. The Mexican poor have been devastated by the same agreements. We are in the same boat. When you have a leaking pipe flooding your basement, you don’t spend money on an expensive pump to get the water out of the basement. It wouldn’t stop the basic problem and you still have to pay the water bill. You have to fix the pipe. Building a wall won’t stop the basic problem for either the Mexicans or ourselves. We need to dry up the problem by renegotiating these very expensive “free” trade agreements and drying up the problem at the source. We need to rein in run away big business and deal with the corrupt profiteers both corporate and governmental who cause the the problem. That’s the bottom line.

Posted by Butte on March 31, 2006 at 11:48 AM

It is very saddening to see this report on Tom Tancredo, but it is equally so to see the replies to it.

Where is our humanity when we dehumanize immigrants by calling them illegal and seek to fragment their existence by building a wall to “keep them out.”

Most people do not want to leave their homeland and their comfort zone, but are left with no other choice because there is no possibility to have a decent quality of life (a possibility that has worsened over the years with the enforcement of free trade on willing governments and unwilling people). Most people do not, in fact, see the United States (Not America, as the entire continent is America) as a beatiful and peaceful utopia where they would love to spend the rest of their entire lives, they see it as an economic necessity. Is the choice between poverty and going north really a choice at all?

You all consider yourselves to be liberal, and in thought, you may be. But where is your humanity when you criticize someone who wants to criminalize “illegal” immigration, but then call it “illegal yourselves”…with what right do you limit the life quality of another. You should truly be ashamed.

Posted by KRJ on March 31, 2006 at 01:39 PM

It is very saddening to see this report on Tom Tancredo, but it is equally so to see the replies to it.

Where is our humanity when we dehumanize immigrants by calling them illegal and seek to fragment their existence by building a wall to “keep them out.”

Most people do not want to leave their homeland and their comfort zone, but are left with no other choice because there is no possibility to have a decent quality of life (a possibility that has worsened over the years with the enforcement of free trade on willing governments and unwilling people). Most people do not, in fact, see the United States (Not America, as the entire continent is America) as a beatiful and peaceful utopia where they would love to spend the rest of their entire lives, they see it as an economic necessity. Is the choice between poverty and going north really a choice at all?

You all consider yourselves to be liberal, and in thought, you may be. But where is your humanity when you criticize someone who wants to criminalize “illegal” immigration, but then call it “illegal yourselves”…with what right do you limit the life quality of another. You should truly be ashamed.

Posted by KRJ on March 31, 2006 at 01:40 PM

By I'm a Wanker, Hear Me Roar

April 7, 2006 11:24 AM | Link to this

Bill Clinton Meets The Shrinks A psychological study of President William Jefferson Clinton

by Paul Lowinger

Why Bill Used His Cigar Instead of His Erection With Monica

Bill said that he had “hundreds of affairs” before “turning forty” but then he began a “concerted effort to be faithful,” according to a conversation with Monica reported to the Starr grand jury. This suggests that he began to have a sexual potency problem at forty in 1986. A man who is periodically impotent and so fears erectile dysfunction when he attempts sexual intercourse has a reason to avoid it and to substitute masturbation and oral sex. The reason is fear of failure. The Starr Referral says, “…the President inserted a cigar into (Monica’s) v**** and then put the cigar in his mouth and said, ‘It tastes good.’ ” This is a statement about Bill’s felt need for a better p***, more dependable, harder and maybe larger. Sometimes a cigar is more then just a cigar. Monica tells us via the Starr report, “…that her physical relationship with the President included oral sex but not sexual intercourse…he touched her genitals…bringing her to orgasm on two occasions…initially the President would not let her perform oral sex to completion…(but) during their last two…encounters, both in 1997, he did ejaculate.” The report said that on March 31, 1996 the President ” ‘…focused on me pretty exclusively…’ kissing her bare breasts and fondling her genitals…

Bill’s preference for foreplay rather then sexual intercourse with Monica is the routine as he, “…’unzipped his pants and sort of exposed himself,’ ” when they meet in the Oval office. They had oral sex nine times and phone sex fifteen times according to the Starr report. Monica wanted sexual intercourse with Bill but it never happened although once there was “…brief genital to genital contact.”

Maureen Dowd has it right when she tells us, “It is Ms. Lewinsky who comes across as the red-blooded predator, wailing to her girl friends that the President wouldn’t go all the way. It is Mr. Clinton who behaves more like a teen-age girl trying to protect her virginity, insisting on holding back, reluctant to even remove any clothes, even pushing Ms. Lewinsky away and pushing up her slipping bra strap…emotionally upset about it…(saying) I’m trying to be good…”

Bill, a lustful seducer with a potency problem might just as well have said, “Not tonight dear, I have a headache,” as he complained about his “sore back.” Monica says, “We tried…but …he couldn’t bend because of his knee, it really didn’t work…”

Psychoanalytic case studies are filled with men whose orgasm requires special conditions: exhibitionists who show their p*** to women on the street, voyeurs who look at women undressing through a window, fetishists who stroke women’s apparel like shoes and pedophiles who seek sex with a child. These may be lifelong perversions or just temporary regressions when unconscious infantile castration fears and sadomasochism reemerge. Perversions were identified by Freud as sexual behavior with infantile rather then adult goals. Some of these same behaviors are a part of normal foreplay leading to intercourse but for the pervert they are his only avenue to a sexual climax. The pervert is expressing his sexuality according to an infantile pattern so Bill regresses after the age of forty to an oral stage, avoids sexual intercourse and prefers f******, masturbation and phone sex. Hillary told a reporter that Bill has sex with her only twice a year or perhaps there is some truth in the Star, a tabloid that says that Bill hasn’t had sex with her since 1986.

Bill’s orgasms by phone sex and f****** are an indication of oral dependency in a man whose Oedipus complex is unresolved so he avoids sexual intercourse in a new relationship during his midlife crisis, the male menopause. Consult Hillary’s and Bill’s Change of Life for details about it.

The choice of oral sex indicates unresolved problems originating in the unconscious . Oral sex avoids pregnancy so the love, responsibility, bonding and biological imperative of sexual intercourse are denied. Oral sex involves recreation not reproduction in the fantasies of the participants. Monica called it “fooling around” in her conversations with Linda Tripp. Oral sex is clothed sex and phone sex is even simpler since masturbation, unlike other kinds of sex doesn’t require getting dressed up. F****** mirrors the nursing experience both for its giver and its receiver. Sexual fluids and semen are like milk in this unconscious scenario so both c********* and f****** have an analogy to offering or accepting the breast.

Why does Bill initially refuse to complete oral sex with Monica? She urges him to come but he doesn’t trust her fully during their first seven encounters but finally during the last two episodes, he ejaculates. Bill’s unconscious includes fantasies of oral impregnation so his inhibition is about oral pregnancy, an idea from infantile oral development. With the completion of oral sex with Monica, perhaps Bill’s oral pregnancy fears become so threatening that he breaks off the affair.

Bill’s withholding semen from Monica during oral sex is his unconscious control derived from his anal fixation. Bill, an anal compulsive as campaigner, speaker and leader gives up control reluctantly. Once he stops the oral sex part way through to climax and then Monica notices that he masturbates into the sink. He resumes control!

C********* for Monica is briefly an issue when she says, “The President ‘was talking about performing oral sex on me’ but she stopped him because she was menstruating…” Monica had control now. Was she really menstruating? Anyway isn’t the yuck in the tongue of the beholder? Monica didn’t accept Bill’s offer later on either though Gennifer did enthusiastically in Arkansas and she says, “I had never known a man so eager to use his mouth for pleasure and so skilled at it.” Bill wants oral sex equity with Monica as Mother but she continued to be the baby sucking on Mommy Bill’s nipple-p***.

Bill expressed his oral sexuality with Gennifer too who says, “…Oral sex seemed like the natural thing to do, I was a little surprised, though, when he came in my mouth the first time we did it ” The Paula Jones case started in Little Rock when she says she was taken to a hotel room by a State trooper in 1991 to meet Bill Clinton who briefly admired her and then dropped his pants and asked her to kiss his erect p***.

There is no question that Bill knew his behavior with Monica was “inappropriate” according to his Bible-based Baptist religion and so he felt guilt. See the section on Bill’s Superego for an overview on his conscience. But the values of his conscience or superego were different by l996 at fifty when he began the Monica affair then they were in 1977 at thirty-one when his twelve year affair with Gennifer started.

How did Bill go from a pleasure- loving bubba to a prim middle aged worrier, from “I’ll always be sixteen” to “trying to be good.” Earlier he had gone from a repressed adolescent who had almost no dates in high school and was too fearful to have sex with Dolly Kyle Browning after the senior prom to a Don Juan with hundreds of affairs in his twenties and thirties.

When Monica called Bill “handsome” the Washington Post tells us he said, “When I look in the mirror, I sees (sic) a fat kid who couldn’t throw a ball straight.” Bill’s low self esteem returned during his menopause with fears about his sexual potency and the likely experiences with impotence. His menopause or change of life started about forty in 1986 but ten years later it was still active. “I have an empty life except for my work,” Bill told Monica. These are the words of the midlife crisis with its hormonal changes, depression, fear of aging and loss of virility. Probably there were personal precipitating events between 1986 and l996 so I await biographical details from Bill and the historians.

My section on Bill’s Sadomasochism is background for the sadomasochism of his Lewinsky disaster. The influence of Bill’s sadomasochism is stronger at fifty then it was at forty so his continuing midlife madness is fueled by this unconscious primitive pre-Oedipal force along with the castration fears. The near certainty of detection by political enemies, the denial and then the pain of exposure and apology followed by public punishment is Bill’s sadomasochistic story. It applies to both the Lewinsky and Willey affairs and perhaps to others like one with Eleanor Mondale hinted at in the tabloids.

When does risk taking about sex in the White House become sadomasochism? It was a part of being the potus if you were Kennedy or LBJ when there was national denial about presidential adultery. JFK enjoyed events with the two nymphs Fiddle and Faddle in the White House pool guarded by the Secret Service. But in the Nineties sex in the Oval Office, in the nation’s home is sadomasochistic as Starr and the news media snoop for Betty and John Q. Public, the prurient landlords.

Bill’s sadomasochism in the Lewinsky and the Willey affairs involves his very visible sexuality albeit perverse and his public punishment as Elvis, the bad boy superstar. He has corrected the image of the awkward sissy who was the high achiever but didn’t get dates. He’s not just Elvis but James Brown too. Sure, it hurts but after Bill’s sadistic pleasure in hurting the public and his wife, there is the healing by his masochistic pleasure when he suffers for what he did. This is largely unconscious for Bill and the public too but it’s real enough to spend millions of public and private dollars on the time of legislators, courts and attorneys and the news media. Slick Willie like Tricky Dick is a sadomasochistic president with national affairs, coverups, denials and explanations.

At some point in my study of Bill’s and Monica’s oral sex life, I became aware that I needed a real life perspective. I knew that internet porn about oral sex, the counting of orgasms by social scientists and esoteric psychoanalytic theories about sexuality weren’t the whole answer. Before I really had a chance to ponder this dilemma, I was at lunch with fellow senior citizens at a local university where we take classes.

The Starr report was just out so after a few comments about Clinton I asked, “Why do people want oral sex?”

” There won’t be a pregnancy,” a serious dark haired women pointed out.

“It’s a power trip for Bill, ” said a man with a cane.

“It doesn’t do much for a women,” said a smiling gray haired women with a single chin whisker.

“You don’t have to take your clothes off, I suppose, if you’re in a hurry,” commented a women in a red jump suit whose lined face was like a venetian blind.

The last word about oral sex, “In cars,” came from a senior who models grandfathers in TV commercials. It was an intense and all too brief focus group. Maybe I’ll try another one.

Back to the table of contents. An excerpt from Bill Clinton Meets The Shrinks, by Paul Lowinger Copyright 1998 by Paul Lowinger

By kevin

April 7, 2006 11:25 AM | Link to this

The subject is playing the race card. Apparently Bush haters will take any and every opportunity to express that hatred. Perhaps the title to this blog should have been in Arabic so these terrorist sympathizers could better comprehend what it is for.

By BBE (the one and only)

April 7, 2006 11:27 AM | Link to this

BushScandals,

Nice spin job for ignorant liberals. Speaking of “illicit” -

…documents in the hands of the Senate showed that Democratic senators obstructed Bush judicial confirmations over two years in conjunction with promises of campaign funding and election support, used Senate resources to raise campaign funds, used their rejection of judicial nominees as fund-raising inducements, and coordinated with litigants to guarantee results in pending litigation. Democratic senators and their staff even picked which judicial nominees would be rejected well in advance of any hearing and actually invited liberal special interests to vote on what nominees would get hearings and votes.

For more facts go hereand here

If any one is wondering why this is a blog topic today for liberal spin-sters, here’s a hint:

DOJ spokesmen represented to the Wall Street Journal that DOJ would also investigate possible criminal violations of Democrat senators evidenced in the still unpublished Memogate papers. Senators Dick Durbin and Ted Kennedy have so far denied DOJ access to their papers. But The Hill newspaper reported on February 15, 2006 that DOJ was still trying to get the unpublished Democrat documents, which I describe in my OpinionJournal.com article “Capitol Shill.”

By I'm a Wanker, Hear Me Roar

April 7, 2006 11:28 AM | Link to this

Bush Administration Responds to Libby Accusations: “We all did it!” by Dood Abides Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 04:30:45 AM PDT

CLICK TO ENLARGE

Washington, DC (APE) - Pundits and administration supporters alike were left sputtering yesterday with the release of court transcripts from the Patrick Fitzgerald investigation that revealed that authorization for the leaking of classified intelligence which resulted in the destruction of Valerie Plame’s undercover status with the CIA came from none other than president Bush himself. Common speculation is that this will be the lynch-pin of Libby’s defense, implying that all involved in the incident are absolved of any wrongdoing because it was an executive order that was being carried out. This appears to be a position that the Bush administration has apparently embraced, as a White House aide jokingly put it, “Screw it, We all did it!”

Dood Abides’s diary :: :: President Bush, yesterday appearing in Charlotte, NC, found himself fielding an unscripted question from an audience member critical of his domestic wiretapping policies, insisting that he should be ashamed of himself. Bush was largely unapologetic, and insisted that a multitude of lawyers had assured him that his actions were indeed constitutional.

The administration today seemed to take the same tack in regards to the Valerie Plame leak. They insisted, through Attorney General Alberto Gonzales that the President’s and subsequently the Vice President’s actions were above scrutiny because of the simple fact that America was and is at war… but not a civil war… in Iraq.

A White House spokesperson, who wished to remain anonymous, expressed that the administration anticipated a slow news day on Friday, and had confidence that the issue would dissolve over the weekend by the time the Sunday morning news shows had concluded.

“President Bush is relieved to be free of the burden of the deception that he has had to maintain for a number of years for national security reasons,” said the spokesperson. “While the loss of Mrs. Plame’s undercover status is regrettable, the president is unapologetic about his decision to sacrifice her… this is what great leaders must be able to do without hesitation.”

Attorney General Alberto Gonzales stated that Fitzgerald’s investigation would likely be wrapping up very quickly in light of this new development

Tags: Valerie Plame, George Bush, Dick Cheney, Scooter Libby, Karl Rove, Satire (all tags)

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Tips/Plames? (127+ / 0-) Recommended by:wozzle, Lisa, cdreid, Angie in WA State, Marek, musing graze, JoeWPgh, knowthings, sheba, lipris, sixthdoctor, DelRPCV, RonV, sen bob, RunawayRose, RickWn, R Dub, Lahdee, karlpk, tomathawl, Sherri in TX, cotterperson, bramish, Vico, John Campanelli, willyr, Plutonium Page, logorrhea, Matilda, bumblebums, Jerome a Paris, Plan9, kissfan, DaveV, Disgusted in St Louis, Miss Devore, JohnInWestland, bronte17, Babsnc, Karen Wehrstein, wonkydonkey, wanderindiana, AlyoshaKaramazov, Bionic, Glic, michelle, sgilman, Saber69, thingamabob, Terre, navajo, UniC, Eddie C, averybird, BurnetO, emmasnacker, Stand Strong, NYC Sophia, elmo, TXsharon, Caldonia, homo neurotic, jamfan, applegal, BrooklynVoice, Tillie630, One bite at a time, Steven D, Scout Finch, bibble, oortdust, madaprn, arkylib, Fabian, lcs, maybeeso in michigan, kingubu, coloradobl, rlteiken, zaraspooksthra, OpherGopher, irate, JohnB47, Webster, Northstar, Yellow Dog Dem Woman, juliesie, beezie687, KiaRioGrl79, volballplr, thefos, brocktunestudios, mattwynn, Ex Con, John DE, wgard, sunbro, RElland, janew2, Sharon Jumper, spunhard, wiscmass, Floja Roja, FindingMyVoice, sodalis, Spathiphyllum, JanL, proudprogressiveCA, Box of Rain, ZaphodsSister, Sanuk, dsteele2, kraant, blacklib, seefleur, kestrel9000, Albatross, jlove1982, Glorfindel, arbiter, OneCrankyDom, Iranaqamuk, happy camper, a small quiet voice, fiddlingnero, Compostings, Daily Prose

Dudehisattva…

“Generosity, Ethics, Patience, Effort, Concentration, and Wisdom”

by Dood Abides on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 04:30:34 AM PDT

What is that hand-gesture (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:Dood Abides, kraant Bush is using called? I know it has a name, and it just can’t come to me…

by DaveV on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 04:35:33 AM PDT

‘Flipping a Cheney’ asfd (6+ / 0-) Recommended by:kissfan, Karen Wehrstein, Terre, Stand Strong, Dood Abides, kraant

I can also be found here, rambling incoherently.

by BullitNutz on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 05:33:00 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Maybe we should ask Scalia? (6+ / 0-) Recommended by:Karen Wehrstein, Terre, Stand Strong, Dood Abides, Steven D, kraant

by DaveV on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:19:05 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

You mean: Fongool (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:Bionic, Dood Abides Which is the bada bing mispronunciation of “Va’a fare in culo” (literally “go do it in the a*”). Just for those of you who want to know why Scalia’s gesture was so offensive.

-5.25, -5.54, 9, 6

by John Campanelli on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:58:22 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

What a shocker… (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:Dood Abides I can’t recall either.

Our Spectrum - Discussing the Life, Science, and Politics of ASD

by chuckles1 on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:02:37 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Wait, so he knew and was lying to us because he (8+ / 0-) Recommended by:RonV, Sherri in TX, chuco35, AlyoshaKaramazov, Dood Abides, mattwynn, FindingMyVoice, kraant, Yellow Canary knew that the leak wasn’t unknown to him and in actuallity it was not a leak at all but a deliberate action to protect a fabrication so their case for going to war wouldn’t face a rodblock and support those 16 words. So he lied to the entire populace at once and a grand jury can only be chosen from the people so he lied to any possible grand jury.

And he situation involved the lifes and deaths of totally uninvolved innocent people. God have mercy on his soul.

Coming to your town soon! The Social Security Adminstartion Electric and Power Company. “Omen Tuffy” 1918-1992

by generic on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 04:39:19 AM PDT

And don’t forget (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:chuco35, Dood Abides that his perogative to “declassify” the NIE was meant for ONE PERSON ONLY - Judith Miller.

Then he said “OOPS”, and later let everyone in on it.

Misled Into War: A Timeline/DowningStreetMemo.com

by Terre on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:10:26 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

The Newest Crop Of Bumper Stickers (4+ / 0-) Recommended by:Dood Abides, OpherGopher, JanL, kraant are getting pretty humorous. I just wanted to say that I am seeing less and less of the worn and torn Bush/Cheney stickers from 2004. But there are some great ones showing up everywhere.

American citizens have some cool ways of speaking silently…..start checking out the newest crop of bumper stickers folks….just try to keep your eyes on the road through the tears of laughter.

It don’t get any better….well er impeachment would be better.

If the Democrats don’t pull off a landslide victory in 2006 in both Houses they just can’t take advantage of every break going they’re way.

“It’s Hard Work!” George Bush…”He that is good for making excuses is seldom good for anything else.” Bejamin Franklin

by JellyPuddin on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 04:44:18 AM PDT

This is one that I came up with: (52+ / 0-) Recommended by:wozzle, Lisa, tmo, Marek, JoeWPgh, ali in nyc, sixthdoctor, DelRPCV, RonV, RunawayRose, Vico, YankInUK, PKinTexas, Plan9, kissfan, Miss Devore, JohnInWestland, 88kathy, Karen Wehrstein, srkp23, AlyoshaKaramazov, Bionic, valleycat, navajo, averybird, BurnetO, Stand Strong, NYC Sophia, homo neurotic, barbwires, One bite at a time, Needa Bigger Pretzel, Steven D, oortdust, madaprn, maybeeso in michigan, rlteiken, OpherGopher, KnotIookin, KiaRioGrl79, mattwynn, Sharon Jumper, Five Thirty, FindingMyVoice, Shaking the Tree, JanL, kraant, Albatross, alwaysquestion, Rachel in Vista, a small quiet voice, fiddlingnero

Dudehisattva…

“Generosity, Ethics, Patience, Effort, Concentration, and Wisdom”

by Dood Abides on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 05:20:08 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

That should be on t-shirts and bumper stickers (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:Dood Abides, kraant everywhere this Fall.

Hell, right now.

“I just had the basic view of the American public — it can’t be that bad out there.” Marine Travis Williams after 11 members of his squad were killed.

by Steven D on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:36:18 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Please actually produce that at Cafe Press! (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:valleycat, Dood Abides, kraant You’ll become at least an instant hundred-aire or thousand-aire! I know I and all my friends would love to wear that as a T-Shirt.

Thanks, Dood Abides, as you often do, you made my day. (Particularly, after I just wasted my time bogged down in a quasi-trollish diary called “Can we just say 9/11 really wasn’t that big a deal?!”)

Save Social Security!

by srkp23 on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:36:30 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

I’ll try to look into that tonight… (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:srkp23, Stand Strong but right now, I’m commiting the 8th deadly sin of blogging at work… ; )

Dudehisattva…

“Generosity, Ethics, Patience, Effort, Concentration, and Wisdom”

by Dood Abides on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:18:41 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Blog-at-Work spin (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:Marek, valleycat, Dood Abides It’s not a sin, it’s a crucial act of political resistance in these dark times—what work could be more important than defending the Constitution?

But seriously—I want that shirt!

Save Social Security!

by srkp23 on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:31:59 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

I want the bumpersticker! (0 / 0)

by empathy on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:18:35 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Suggestion (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:valleycat, Dood Abides, kraant Cut the upper portion of the stars out so the flag is flying upside down. Then, as suggested, get it produced so we (less talented) can proudly wear/display it.

by kyoders on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:41:36 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Hmm… you lost me… (0 / 0) The flag actually already is flying upside down, stars and all…?

Dudehisattva…

“Generosity, Ethics, Patience, Effort, Concentration, and Wisdom”

by Dood Abides on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:20:11 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

stars go all the way top to bottom (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:Dood Abides and to look absolutely upsidedown, the stars should start half way down and go to the bottom. That would make it perfectly clear.

Having said that, Dood, you’re the DUDE!! Well done.

by alwaysquestion on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:01:39 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

no, kyoders is right (0 / 0) the block of stars doesn’t cover the whole left section of the flag top to bottom. you need some stripes going all the way across at the top. and then I want one, too.

by AngryFinn on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:18:38 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

excellent. (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:Dood Abides, kraant “Fight the War on Moron” also has kind of a nice ring.

by vickyny on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:42:49 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Or (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:Lisa, RunawayRose, Dood Abides The Moron Terror

by JoeWPgh on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:06:45 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Excellent!!! (0 / 0)

Dudehisattva…

“Generosity, Ethics, Patience, Effort, Concentration, and Wisdom”

by Dood Abides on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:11:36 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Outstanding (1+ / 0-) If you are able to get that over to Cafe Press, here will be one order

by rlteiken on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:57:05 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

This remind anyone of Nixon ? (10+ / 0-) Recommended by:cdreid, tmo, Sherri in TX, lilnubber, Dood Abides, One bite at a time, KnotIookin, Yellow Dog Dem Woman, FindingMyVoice, kraant ” if the president does it, it’s not breaking the law ” Someone needs a reality check.

-8.63 -7.28 Vote+$.01 I will vote Dem., but in protest and support.

by OneCrankyDom on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 04:55:56 AM PDT

Photosatirical cuisine (18+ / 0-) Recommended by:RonV, Karen Wehrstein, Bionic, lilnubber, BurnetO, emmasnacker, applegal, Dood Abides, One bite at a time, oortdust, madaprn, Fabian, kingubu, KiaRioGrl79, eaglecries, Shaking the Tree, kraant, Albatross Belated congrats to the Dood for his Koufax win! Voters were shrewd. Today’s little spoof Only offers more proof The Abider cooks fools, serves brain food.

by musing graze on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 05:51:07 AM PDT

Yes Dood (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:Dood Abides, kraant Heartfelt Congrats!!!

“If you’re going through hell, keep going”. -Winston Churchill

by One bite at a time on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:18:52 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Please, PLEASE (7+ / 0-) Recommended by:Sherri in TX, kissfan, NYC Sophia, Dood Abides, Yellow Dog Dem Woman, kraant, Carbide Bit be careful when doing satire. I know, I know…I do it as well, but my original look at your diary and the photo didn’t immediately indicate to me that you were joking. I assumed you’d just combined the various photos of these a***** giving miscellaneous fingers to people, and it wasn’t until the end, when you made the mistake of allowing a Bush spokesperson to make a fairly clear, articulate statement on something, that I knew you were joking.

by steve davis on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:16:19 AM PDT

Heh, (5+ / 0-) Recommended by:bumblebums, Bionic, Dood Abides, eaglecries, kraant it’s Dood! Everyone knows he does satire! He just won an award for it!

“If you’re going through hell, keep going”. -Winston Churchill

by One bite at a time on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:20:00 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Sad, Isn’t It? (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:Dood Abides, kraant Bushco has gotten some pathetic that many people would actually believe they would make these statements. Dood’s satire is sometimes too piercing and spot-on.

by davidkc on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:22:19 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

you didn’t notice cheney’s arm? (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:Dood Abides, evilpenguin, kraant it’s like 8 feet long and doesn’t match his jacket, lol.

Give me Liberty or give me death! (-6.88, -6.15)

by guyermo on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:34:58 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

That’s a tentacle (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:chuco35, Dood Abides, evilpenguin It’s not really an arm; it’s a tentacle with a human-like hand on the end. He has 20 of them.

by Shane Todd on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:43:29 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

It’s such a waste (0 / 0) to have 20 arms and to have not one of them capable of pleasuring you into a smile once in a while.
I guess when all your intentions are eeevil, you can’t have any fun at all.

by Lisa on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:13:54 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

The ‘satire’ tag. (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:Dood Abides, kraant Mr. Abides usually includes the satire tag. If one isn’t familiar with his work, the tag should be a dead giveaway.

“I was so easy to defeat, I was so easy to control, I didn’t even know there was a war.” -9.75, -8.41

by RonV on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:39:42 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

The point of satire (5+ / 0-) Recommended by:JoeWPgh, Bionic, valleycat, Dood Abides, kingubu I’m not a skilled satirical technician, but isn’t satire effective when the humor in it closely mimics the reality? When that happens, you have to expect that smart people will get it, but Republicans won’t.

I don’t think it’d be funny if you started off the thing by saying, “Now, remember everybody this is satire.”

If I tell someone a joke, it’s usually not funny to start it off by prepping them for it.

by otto on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:54:10 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Truer words never spoke (6+ / 0-) Recommended by:Lisa, RunawayRose, Bionic, valleycat, Dood Abides, alwaysquestion you have to expect that smart people will get it, but Republicans won’t.

Yup, and that’s how we got in the pickle we’re in:

They watched Dr. Strangelove and found a sensible defense policy.

They saw Network and said, “Hey we can make TV do that!”

And they watched Wag the Dog and took it as a treatise on effective ethics and governance in Washington.

It all makes sense now…

Destiny: A tyrant’s authority for crime and a fool’s excuse for failure. —Ambrose Bierce

by kingubu on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:34:07 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

One of my personal favorites… (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:Bionic, kingubu, alwaysquestion

DR. STRANGEROVE

Dudehisattva…

“Generosity, Ethics, Patience, Effort, Concentration, and Wisdom”

by Dood Abides on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:40:24 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

A Classic Dudeist Work (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:Bionic, Dood Abides I keep waiting for the day when Fieldmarshal von Rumsfeld forgets that the cameras are on and starts into his “precious bodily fluids” rant.

Destiny: A tyrant’s authority for crime and a fool’s excuse for failure. —Ambrose Bierce

by kingubu on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:51:28 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

You Should Add Scalia’s Finger Gesture (4+ / 0-) Recommended by:srkp23, Bionic, Dood Abides, kraant Anyway, I was quite surprised to look at today’s edition of the Kansas City Star, a lame conservative newspaper that is a big shill for Bushco, and see the news of Bush’s leak plastered on the front page, with a huge headline and huge photo of Bush taking up most of the page, and a huge subhead of Bush’s 2003 quote in which he said any leaker in his administration would be “taken care of.” I’m sure you’re right that Bushco hopes this will blow over by Monday, but based on how our local MSM is handling this story, that scenario doesn’t seem likely.

by davidkc on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:18:36 AM PDT

Satire (6+ / 0-) Recommended by:zzyzx, JoeWPgh, Bionic, Dood Abides, eaglecries, arbiter You can tell good satire on the current adminstration because within weeks, it will be fact.

by davidb1224 on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:25:48 AM PDT

This is a defense? (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:Dood Abides A WH spokesperson said this?!

“While the loss of Mrs. Plame’s undercover status is regrettable, the president is unapologetic about his decision to sacrifice her… this is what great leaders must be able to do without hesitation.”

This is flabbergasting, and not in a good way.

Bush already had his war. It had been going on for months before the Plame leak. There was no turning back at that point. So it was “great leadership” to destroy a deep-cover agent tracking Iranian nuclear proliferation and her front company and the rest of its agents for…political revenge and preserving credibility so he could be re-elected? How is that even leading? Leading whom? Where? These people are so f*** deluded that they don’t even know when they’re committing treason!

OUT NOW!

by psnyder on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:49:51 AM PDT

When I play chess, I sacrifice any piece I can (4+ / 0-) Recommended by:AlyoshaKaramazov, Dood Abides, wiscmass, alwaysquestion to hurt my opponent. I’ll even put my queen in harm’s way, as long as it means I’m trading my queen for my opponent’s. There is always a gain when I sacrifice a piece. What was the gain for the U.S. in sacrificing this woman’s identity and undercover status? We know what the gain was for Bush - war and lots of it. He isn’t supposed to sacrifice pawns for his own agenda, but for the people of this country and our constitution.

by Dickie on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:59:38 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

It’s all about… (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:Dood Abides, alwaysquestion …the IOKIYAR Act of 2001. A Rethug could throw you into the middle of a high-traffic road at rush hour just to see you die, but it would be ok. BushCo said so.

Thwarting the forces of conservatism since 1978. -7.63, -5.64

by wiscmass on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:01:09 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

I’m kinda dizzy (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:RunawayRose, Dood Abides All this up is down stuff gets to you after a while. Near as I can tell, Bush declassified certain information. But the fact that he did so was, in fact, itself classified. It was a classified declassification that, if I am understanding it correctly, was not itself classified when he reclassified it.

by JoeWPgh on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:04:48 AM PDT

The Presidency has been ‘classless-ified’… (0 / 0)

Dudehisattva…

“Generosity, Ethics, Patience, Effort, Concentration, and Wisdom”

by Dood Abides on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:10:40 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Mutant Middle Finger (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:Dood Abides Bush has a freakishly long mutant middle finger in that photo. I had no idea he was so fingerishly endowed.

Check out Frameshop

by Jeffrey Feldman on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:12:01 AM PDT

Ah, they roll out the classic Spartacus defense (0 / 0) “Hey, we’re ALL Spartacus! Whatcha gonna do about it?”

Think we have enough crosses ….?

by uncoolfred on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:13:41 AM PDT

Another day in the Empire of V (for Vafanculo) (0 / 0) And when it is replaced by the Empire of V (for Vendetta), whose fault will that be?

Which came first, the Czar’s or the Bolsheviks? The Bourbons or the Robespierres? In both cases the outcome was incredible bloodshed, pain and suffering and dictatorship.

That is why we have a country of laws. The law must be followed, justice must prevail and the Congress must discuss Impeachment.

Charisma does not save republics, Courage does. (adigal)

by Carbide Bit on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:20:52 AM PDT

Permalink | 47 comments skybluewater, zzyzx, Terri, Cowalker, musing graze, DC Pol Sci, knowthings, lipris, sixthdoctor, DelRPCV, Kimberly Stone, Delaware Dem, Maryscott OConnor, Lahdee, chuco35, cotterperson, democat, baffled, wintersnowman, John Campanelli, Plutonium Page, PanzerMensch, bumblebums, zeroooo, Jerome a Paris, Plan9, kissfan, Disgusted in St Louis, Miss Devore, bronte17, macdust, annrose, kriser, srkp23, Glic, chimpy, michelle, hrh, valleycat, sgilman, Terre, Alna Dem, SensibleShoes, Eddie C, mayan, NYC Sophia, RedStateDem, TXsharon, hoolia, Caldonia, One bite at a time, ybruti, Steven D, Mikecan1978, davidkc, arkylib, Fabian, maybeeso in michigan, kingubu, coloradobl, LarisaW, zaraspooksthra, OpherGopher, Northstar, IUDemocrat, juliesie, beezie687, mattwynn, buckeyedem08, GreyHawk, wgard, sunbro, Sharon Jumper, teachenglish, wiscmass, FindingMyVoice, sodalis, dazed in pa, Shaking the Tree, Spathiphyllum, Box of Rain, Brubs, berko, kraant, seefleur, Wary, Iranaqamuk, thiebes, rad mennonite, a small quiet voiceNavigation Menu Home Diaries dKosopedia Search Create account Login Lose Your Password? wide narrow

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By I'm a Wanker, Hear Me Roar

April 7, 2006 11:29 AM | Link to this

NCLB - what we can do, and why. PLEASE RECOMMEND. by teacherken Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 04:58:43 AM PDT Today I’d like to offer the ideas of several people with whom I am often in contact at least electronically. Both of the items that I will post today came across the Assessment Reform Network email list of FairTest. The first will be a suggestion of things people can do, and given that NCLB (No Child Left Behind) is due for reauthorization next year is fairly important.

The second is from someone who teaches Social Foundations of Education at Monmouth University who also blogs extensively about education.

In addition I will off a few comments of my own where appropriate.

I am asking that this be recommended to that all interested in education will see it. I rarely directly ask for recommends, but because this is directed towards action, on this occasion I do so.

teacherken’s diary :: :: The following is from Monty Neill, executive director of FairTest. The only changes I have made is to remove the phone numbers, put the actual 7 ways into a separate blockquote within the blockquote, and to modify the email so that it cannot be used by a bot:

We at FairTest have been asked over time for a short list of things that folks can do. Here is a possible list. It is not at all an exhaustive list of things to do - the recent actions of students in opposition to the proposed immigration laws show us again that a wide range of activity can be used in powerful ways - but it could be used to get people thinking, especially people not used to taking action. We will fill this out with more details and post it to our website in the near future. Comments are welcome. Monty

Seven Ways to Work for NCLB Reform

1) Hold a public forum in your community to discuss NCLB.

2) Persuade your organizations to pass resolutions calling for reform of NCLB: - Endorse the Joint Organizational Statement on NCLB (at http://www.fairtest.org/… see ‘alternatives’) - Collect signatures on the Petition to Reform NCLB; http://www.fairtest.org/… - Publicize your results in the local media and send copies of resolutions and petitions to your local and federal elected officials.

3) Write letters-to-the-editor and op-ed pieces for your local and regional newspapers.

4) Get your local school board to pass a resolution or hold a community forum about NCLB.

5) Contact your U.S. senators and representatives about changing NCLB: Call them, write or email them (send clips and information), and set up meetings with them in your district (bring a group).

6) Contact your state legislators to enlist them in the effort to reform NCLB; get state legislatures to pass resolutions

7) Parents: Join the NCLB-mandated Parents Advisory Board at your child’s school.

Monty Neill, Ed.D. Executive Director FairTest 342 Broadway Cambridge, MA 02139 monty at fairtest dot org

When I would read this, I thought of one slight change to item 5 above — that is also to contact those running for US Senate and House, since as I noted NCLB is up for reauthorization next year. We need to raise the profile of this as a campaign issue.

If you would like donate to Fairtest to support their work, click here

The second piece, by Jim Horn, offers 20 arguments you can use in favor of total elimination of No Child Left Behind, as well as 10 action strategies. These can also be read in a post at Jim’s website, School Matters.

I have put the arguments and strategies in separate block quotes in order to allow me to offer separate comments. First, the arguments:

20 Reasons to Eliminate NCLB

Jim is not necessarily arguing for elimination of Federal support for K-12 public education. His position is that NCLB is so flawed that it cannot be reformed. He wants a totally different approach to government support of education. If one looks at the arguments above one should realize that there are so many inherent flaws and downright wrong approaches in NCLB that it is pointless to try to address them one at a time.

There may be a few references which are not clear to people who do not closely follow education policy. I will not attempt to address them at this point. Since I am now on Spring break, I will be able to closely monitor this diary. Anything someone does not understand should be raised in a comment and I will attempt to offer an explanation.

And now Jim’s suggested action strategies.

Action Strategies

1) Hold a public forum in your community to explain these 20 points.

2) Persuade your organizations to pass resolutions calling for the repeal of NCLB based on these points.

3) Collect signatures on a Petition to Eliminate NCLB based on these 20 points. Publicize your results in the local media and send copies of resolutions and petitions to your local and federal elected officials.

3) Write letters-to-the-editor and op-ed pieces for your local and regional newspapers, making these points.

4) Get your local school board to pass a resolution or hold a community forum about eliminating NCLB.

5) Contact your U.S. senators and representatives about eliminating NCLB: Call them, write or email them (send these points and other information), and set up meetings with them in your district (bring a group of children).

6) Contact your state legislators to enlist them in the effort to eliminate NCLB; get state legislatures to pass resolutions.

7) Parents: Join the NCLB-mandated Parents Advisory Board at your child’s school. Bring the 20 Reasons to Eliminate NCLB to begin a dialogue.

8). Organize a public protest on test days or days given over to test preparation.

9). Contact organizations such as ACT and MoveOn to get the 20 Reasons established as an action item.

10). Organize community and neighborhood potluck dinners with teachers and parents to talk together about how NCLB is affecting children and school.

And yes, I am quite well aware that there are two #3s, and thus apparently 11 actions strategies. If you look carefully, the two items lists as #3 are actually both part of the original #3 in in Monty’s list. What Jim has done is expand and slightly modify Monty’s original list. Remember, he did post this on his website.

I think in general Jim’s analysis of the flaws is pretty much on target, and I agree with the suggestions of both Monty and Jim as to the actions we - and should - take. In my own case I have chosen to focus on public officials and those seeking public office as what I do out of the public sphere, and using whatever writing talents I have to help educate the larger public through blogging. But not everyone we need to reach follows these issues electronically. We need to speak at public meetings, write op-ed pieces, write Letters to the Editor, contact public officials, communicate through our PTA organizations. The possibility of more direct does remain - that is the reference to what we have seen on immigration reform. I would argue that at this point a mass movement of students walking out on tests would probably neither be widespread nor particularly effective, and in light of the ongoing political campaign season could well be counterproductive. Thus I would not encourage such action nor would I myself participate at this time. I believe that it is possible to reach a sufficient level of opposition to NCLB in its current structure to achieve major change and possibly almost complete replacement.

Time is of the essence. The DOE and its commercial supporters have already wound up their version of the Mighty Wurlitzer. You are regularly seeing “news” pieces about successes of NCLB, or implying that DOE will make modifications — all of this is an attempt to defuse criticism, especially given how much the recent scoring problems of SAT have demonstrated the fallibility of our testing systems.

Read Jim’s criticisms carefully. This is about much more than tests. I have written on a number of these subjects in the past. I firmly believe that the battle over education is a battle for the very future of this nation as a democratic republic in which all citizens and future citizens have the opportunity to raise themselves up. Absent a meaningful and effective public educational system we will continue our current downward spiral into extreme inequality and see continuous erosion of our basic liberties and rights.

Let me close with the last sentence of the email Jim Horn sent me to give me permission to post his piece

Save the Republic

Tags: education, NCLB, testing, political action, FairTest (all tags)

Permalink | 79 comments

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Daily Kos Help

I believe that this is a critical diary (33+ / 0-) Recommended by:wozzle, sheba, sixthdoctor, Powered Grace, scrutinizer, marjo, Carnacki, zic, Joe B, kissfan, DaveV, jem6x, MD patriot, felagund, BarbinMD, snout, Kirsten, NYFM, nika7k, kisler1224, kd texan, historys mysteries, chememom, Alice Marshall, John DE, Ambrosius, sick of it all, joseph rainmound, FindingMyVoice, JanL, melvin, hatdog, DeweyCounts which is why I am asking for recommends. I would also appreciate comments - I would like to see / hear your reactions or suggestions (or even criticisms) and I will respond as much as I can (although I do have a life apart from this blog, even on days off from school!). Traffic encourages traffic, so your comments will encourage others to read as well.

Thanks.

Those who can, do. Those who can do more, TEACH!

by teacherken on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 05:00:23 AM PDT

Ken, excellent diary. (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:teacherken, MD patriot But the first thing we must do is throw the rascals out! NCLB is a mitigable disaster…

“If you get an outfit, you can be a cowboy, too…” : The Smothers Brothers.

by wozzle on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 05:02:18 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

that will help, but remember (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:sarac, kd texan, historys mysteries NCLB would not have been passed without the support of George Miller and Ted Kennedy, and I have no desire to throw out either one.

Those who can, do. Those who can do more, TEACH!

by teacherken on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 05:03:40 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Kennedy was lied to (0 / 0) Kennedy was taken in by the Bushite scum liars, not the only Dem to fail to realize the depth of the Bush depravity and double dealing.

The fact is, NCLB has been twisted to ensure that it does exactly what the Bushite scum want it to do- tear down the public schools. Why do they want to do this? Well, it might have something to do with the fact that the Bushite scum elites all use religious or private schools. They couldn’t get vouchers, so they instead go for fake “Charter” schools and funnel money to religious wing-nuts.

No Democratic congressperson should cooperate with the bushite scum in any way, all who do should be primaries, the Lieberman types are Bush collaborators.

Bush and his cronies are tearing away our constitution, and NCLB is just one of the many ways they are working to install a permanent aristocracy, always led by the rich while the serfs are left to squabble over crumbs.

Does NCLB apply to private schools? Why no, they just take extra long vacations while the public schools waste time drilling on math and reading. 180 day school year? Not required for rich folks, they don’t need to learn much anyway, their place on top of the pyramic is assured by inherited wealth.

by MD patriot on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:39:08 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

An important diary- (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:historys mysteries and I will forward it to many friends that are concerned about this issue.

by scrutinizer on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 05:16:04 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Great read (0 / 0) There is only one thing I take exception to. You really don’t need to headline that you want this diary on the recommend list. All of your diaries are recommended without your asking. There are so many diarists who have never been on the recommend list and yours is always recommended, along with a select few. You don’t need to ask.

by tazz on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 05:17:08 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

I disagree (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:teacherken I think it brings a certain level of attention when a recognized username specifically asks for a recommend.

Caught my attention in a way that it may not have otherwise.

(gotta say the “diarists who have never been on the recommend list” and “select few” sounds a lot like sour grapes…does someone force you to visit this site?)

The thing I love about this community is that it is self-regulating for the most part. People recommend what they like.

my 2-cents

A little about me here. -8.63, -7.44

by sick of it all on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 05:22:33 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

I don’t have sour grapes (0 / 0) because I write very few diaries. My point is Teacherken does not have to ask to be recommended, he always is without asking. By asking, it just reinforces his diaries are more important than all the others that never get recommended. The democratic party is not supposed to be about elitism. My point is he doesn’t have to ask, he writes about important educational issues that I find extremely interesting and should be recommended. I don’t look for a statement asking me to recommend, I now can look at who wrote the diary and then if the diary is well written and important, which this one is, I would recommend it.

by tazz on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 05:34:37 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

see my response to your first comment (0 / 0) because there are several issues.

Those who can, do. Those who can do more, TEACH!

by teacherken on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 05:40:55 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

I also have to disagree on a couple of points (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:snout, Tinfoil Hat over the long term, less than 1/3 of my diaries make the recommended list. In fact, the last few days my diaries have not, and I believe the one yesterday may only have gotten around 10 recommends.

In general I do not ask for recommends. I am willing to let MY work rise or not on its merits and the judgment of the community. But this is NOT my work, but an attempt to make available to a wider audience the work of others on which I place a great deal of value.

Second, I probably would not have included the request in the title had I posted at my normal time of around 6 AM — I would have expected it to get a fair amount of traffic. But because I was posting as late as I was, i was concerned that many who normally would read and recommend, say teachers and active parents on the East Coast, would already have left home for the day and by the time they again signed on to a computer so many additional diaries would have been posted that it might have scrolled away.

Criticize me if you see this as a pattern. In general, I leave it up to people to recommend, comment, mojo or ignore. That’s what I normally say in my tip jar comment. I may, if a diary has not gotten to the recommended list, put in a comment about it in an open thread to give people another chance to see it. But then, I sometimes will in an open thread promote the diary of someone else instead, since I know that when I write on education people tend to look, but if they are pressed for time and do not know the writer of another piece they may skip over it. That happened to this terrific diary yesterday of MarkJohnsonLewis and it happens far too often to the work of Mi Corazon. I commend both to your attention.

My concern is the issue.

Those who can, do. Those who can do more, TEACH!

by teacherken on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 05:40:17 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Thanks for the props! (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:teacherken Yesterday was my officially my first diary, so the recognition is truly appreciated.

by MarkJohnsonLewis on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:07:47 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

hey — it was a terrific diary (0 / 0) and definitely worthy of getting more attention

and I will get back to the promised detailed response, if and when I can take some time away from this diary and a couple of other tasks.

Those who can, do. Those who can do more, TEACH!

by teacherken on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:13:12 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Take your time (0 / 0) It looks like you have your hands full with this diary.

by MarkJohnsonLewis on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:46:52 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

I do, but it is slowing down (0 / 0) I still have not gotten out of the house except to pick up my morning paper, which I still have not opened :)

I’m going to head over to my local Starbucks in about 10 minutes, then aftger I catch up with this diary and my email I will return to your diary.

Thanks for your active participation here today. I presume from some of your writing that you are local (DC) - in what capacity? It might help people to understand your point of view. I am tempted to say you have some kind of relationship w/Kennedy, based on one recent remark. But I’d rather not jump to conclusions.

Those who can, do. Those who can do more, TEACH!

by teacherken on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:51:00 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Maybe it’s just because it’s early (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:teacherken and I’m not awake yet, but could you please spell out No Child Left Behind in the first reference or in the title? When I read the diary, it was clear what it was about, but on first glance at the diary I wasn’t sure what NCLB stood for. Just for the slower of us in your audience, or at least the non-teachers. thanks!

The writing on the wall has run out of wall. Now we’re writing on the floor.

by marjo on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 05:40:06 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

couldn’t fit it in the title (0 / 0) but you are right - probably should have been above the fold. I am near the limit on words now, so I don’t want to change it, but I will keep it in mind for future postings. Thanks.

Those who can, do. Those who can do more, TEACH!

by teacherken on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 05:41:55 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

NeoCon Lying B****** (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:marjo, nika7k, FindingMyVoice I thought everyone knew this by now.

by NYFM on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:08:21 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

like I said (0 / 0) the acronym threw me, that’s all. I’m not a teacher and I try to think about the fiasco of No Child Left Behind as little as possible.

The writing on the wall has run out of wall. Now we’re writing on the floor.

by marjo on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:49:04 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

and that goes for (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:NYFM, FindingMyVoice NeoCon Lying B****** as well. ;o)

The writing on the wall has run out of wall. Now we’re writing on the floor.

by marjo on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:53:16 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

[smile] (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:teacherken Ah, I wish that I wasn’t sure what NCLB stood for. ;)

But thanks for the reminder. It’s certainly true that the NCLB moniker/initials for “No Child Left Behind,” also sometimes referred to as “Nickleby,” is as familiar to those of us in education as, say the initials “IRS” are to an accountant. So I could readily understand that it wouldn’t occur to those of us who are immersed in federal requirements in education that not EVERYbody lives and breathes these terms and that they do still sometimes need to be spelled out if there is no other reference point.

You may have heard educator friends sharing what THEY think it stands for:

No Child’s Behind Left No Child Left Untested No Cash Left Behind …

etc.

There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics. —Benjamin Disraeli, cited by Mark Twain

by sheba on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:32:06 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

tough to follow for the average person (0 / 0) … who doesn’t follow these issues very closely.

‘The war is over,’ so said the speaker, with the flight suit on. Maybe to him I’m just a pawn, so he can advance. … All I wanna do is dance.

by Whigsboy on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:01:34 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

thanks (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:teacherken I will pass this on to a couple of teachers I know (most of them family) and hopefully we can get something rolling.

Keeping Reality in Sight

by kisler1224 on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 05:05:16 AM PDT

thanks for anything you can do (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:libnewsie I was too exhausted to get up early to post this, so I know I may have missed many teachers who would normally respond to this, so your help is greatly appreciated.

Those who can, do. Those who can do more, TEACH!

by teacherken on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 05:11:38 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Thanks for the lists (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:teacherken, historys mysteries, JanL I’ll have to dash for work & school soon but I appreciate the lists/concise points. I too will focus on writing my senators & representative; the PTO at my son’s school (at the meetings I have attended) has never gotten near this kind of discussion, which may be why I no longer attend….

Report cards came out yesterday and if I could sit at the computer for more than 5 minutes I’d have a diary’s worth about report cards and the elementary ed system.

And, as always, I’m all over this:

An education policy that puts test scores in the place of the intellectual, social, and emotional growth of America’s children should eliminated, not reformed.

The Constitution is a monumental blessing and its moral guidance in this pluralistic society is its tolerance and understanding for all. Raymond J. Pettine

by Kirsten on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 05:06:43 AM PDT

I got up late this morning (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:Kirsten, libnewsie since it is the first day of my Spring Break. Thus those on the East Coast who had to head to school (or other work) who might have seen this had I posted at my normal ridiculous time of 6 AM might well miss it if we do not keep it visible, which is why I ask your help.

Those who can, do. Those who can do more, TEACH!

by teacherken on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 05:13:00 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

I agree (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:teacherken, historys mysteries Unfortunately, I believe that those tests are here to stay. Maybe I’m getting too cynical, but for this nation to put together the collective will, and say that test scores don’t really matter, is I think, pure fantasy. On the other hand, if you come at this another way, you can make the test scores work for you. I’ve read plenty of research that indicates that the teachers who really focus on teaching their kids (rather than teaching to the test) get the best test scores. It’s the drill and grill teachers who end up falling into the trap of teaching to the test - which eats up incredible amounts of class time, and ignores the purpose of school in the first place: teaching kids how to learn.

In theory, I agree with Jim’s #20. In practice, I think it’s unrealistic.

by MarkJohnsonLewis on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:14:11 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

let me agree at least in part (0 / 0) Let me talk about non-AP clases - while I do not drill and kill, I will use released questions as a form of review, as warmups, to teach the kids about the structure of the test and how to take the test. I also point out that there is little point in arguing with the question, which may have no correct answers or more than one. I show them samples which illustrate this. I actually cover much more than the testable content, but I also structure what I do quite differently than the voluntary state curriculum. I am seeking to provide a framework that allows my students to organize the material in a way that makes sense for them.

My students tend to do quite well on state tests, often better than they do on mine (I go half a year without giving them multiple choice questions — I eithyer require them to provide the answer or provide the definition. I also make them apply ideas). So at least in part I am an example of what you describe.

Those who can, do. Those who can do more, TEACH!

by teacherken on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:00:14 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Teacherken (0 / 0) Speaking of days off, do you think you’ll make it Saturday?

What object is served by this circle of misery and violence and fear? It must tend to some end, or else our universe is ruled by chance, which is unthinkable.

by Carnacki on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 05:15:31 AM PDT

I need the details (0 / 0) please send to kber at earthlink dot net

my wife is in Winchester right now for work, and we have considered doing it.

Those who can, do. Those who can do more, TEACH!

by teacherken on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 05:17:26 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Details (0 / 0) I thought I had emailed them. Will send again. What object is served by this circle of misery and violence and fear? It must tend to some end, or else our universe is ruled by chance, which is unthinkable.

by Carnacki on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:35:21 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

thanks - will be checking n/t (0 / 0)

Those who can, do. Those who can do more, TEACH!

by teacherken on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:37:27 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Ken (0 / 0) Emailed away. Sometimes my emails get caught in the spam filter. Too many right wingers have spam blocked me I think. What object is served by this circle of misery and violence and fear? It must tend to some end, or else our universe is ruled by chance, which is unthinkable.

by Carnacki on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:46:29 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

I will pass this info around as well. (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:teacherken, libnewsie, JanL I have offered to speak with Tammy Duckworth - IL-06 about education (I think she’s kinda clueless in this arena - most people in office/running for office are!) and promised to work on her campaign.

I haven’t heard back, but I’ll keep at it.

It is NOT overstating the situation to say that our democracy’s future may very well rest on much of what happens as a result of NLCB.

Thanks for posting, teacherken! And recommended!

A little about me here. -8.63, -7.44

by sick of it all on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 05:16:09 AM PDT

I have a standing offer (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:zic, sick of it all to discuss education with any of the fighting Dems or their representatives. It is not so much that I seek to impose my viewpoints, but they have to have an education policy that makes sense, because it will be an issue this cycle. I can offer suggestions about what they do have, point out weaknesses, etc. I have already done some of this electronically for a fair number, and am meeting with a representative of one of them next week. If you need support on this let me know.

Those who can, do. Those who can do more, TEACH!

by teacherken on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 05:19:14 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

This is SO Recommended (4+ / 0-) Recommended by:teacherken, Kirsten, historys mysteries, JanL I’m a NoVA parent with two children in elementary school. They have had terrific teachers who have to work under these educational constraints. I would love nothing more than to see NCLB thrown in the garbage heap.

Liberal: “I still think it’s a respectable word. Its root is “liber,” the Latin word for “free,” and isn’t that what we are all about?”—Mary McGrory

by mini mum on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 05:20:20 AM PDT

I agree… (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:teacherken, historys mysteries I have two kids in elementary school in SW VA and the testing drives me insane. The worst part is that they’re always sending home all these suggestions to keep kids from getting too stressed out about testing… I have an idea… LET’S NOT DO IT!! Spend that time teaching my kids how to think, not how to be tested!!

by VAchick on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:42:18 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Thank you. (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:teacherken, historys mysteries, alwaysquestion And the second layer are state-level standards that mean children are taught to a test.

Maine, where I live, has such standards. Much effort went in to making sure that they were productive, useful standards. While it’s not perfect, it’s better then NCLB.

But as you know, I’m disgusted with education that never acknowledges the strengths of individuals, that punishes children for having deviant strengths such as the visual skills of a potential artist, the ears of a potential musician, the mechanical skills of a potential inventor.

We’re so busy making sure we don’t leave anyone behind that we’ve forgotten that there’s more to being successful, more to contribute, then the ability to do Algebra II, write 5-graph essays, and recount the minitua of the Marshall Plan. All worthwhile skills, but not enough for the richness of our communities.

by zic on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 05:35:50 AM PDT

Schools of Education (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:Ambrosius All right, I hate to say this because this is such a well meaning diary. But I think you also need to attack NCLB at the other end. One of the reasons the NCLB is maintained is because of Schools of Education (I’m not against them, I believe deeply in them, just not the way they are now). If you think politicians are wimps you have never met administrators in colleges of education. It is all about money these days. The way you get money from the government is by doing what they want. What the government wants is standardized testing (it is what they have always wanted). Those who are working within the context of standardized testing are getting the money. What gets the money is what’s important (even if they don’t think it’s good for education - it is cynicism beyond your wildest dreams). Schools of education teach their students that even if they disagree with standards they must go along with them, because that is what people in power want. I’m telling you, in this case NCLB is a whole lot bigger than just Bush.

by wilbur on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 05:40:04 AM PDT

I have met administrators there (0 / 0) since I have a degree from Johns Hopkins in education (MAT) and reached ABD in the department of education at Catholic U. I think your criticism is a bit unfounded.

First, most departments or schools of education undergo a certification process by NCATE which is quite rigorous. Many on the conservative side, politically and educationally, do not likem NCATE, but I really do not want to rehearse that isue now.

As far as instructing teachers-to-be that they must adhere to the standards — that is a matter of law. If teachers in public schools are going to totally ignore the standards they are not going to have jobs. Even in those states that still have tenure (not all do) that is a pretty sure-fired way to be dismissed before you achieve tenure. One’s role in the classroom is heavily defined and even circumscribed by externally defined standards.

And so long as the mandates are on testing, if the schools of education did not prepare the future teachers do deal with tests, then they would be accused by the “right” of undermining the reform efforts that had been mandated by law.

That said, remember that many of the teachers in ed schools are also researchers. Some of the strongest opposition to NCLB has come precisely those who have researched its impact, and the impact of similar testing programs at state levels (including Texas) before the Federal law was passed.

As to the fact that administrators of ed schools are looking for more funds — duh. So are administrators of engineering schools, science departments, music schools. So are executives of defense contractors, most heads of government programs at Federal, state and local level, and so on. I fail to see why you think that fact that such administrators are human and wish to sustain their organizations is something either horrible or unique to ed schools.

Those who can, do. Those who can do more, TEACH!

by teacherken on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 05:50:06 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

No, I disagree (0 / 0) No, I’m sorry I disagree. I really don’t want to get in to an argument of “qualifications to speak on a subject” with you. There is no such thing as an expert, only dialogue. And it is a sign of insecurity. First, it is not the law that schools of education teach their students that they must teach to the test - which is a curriculum issue. I am not sure it is even the law that the teachers have to administer the test. It would be a very interesting law if it was there, and I’m sure there would have been teachers who would have challenged it. It is true that teachers in training are worried they will not be able to keep their jobs if they don’t teach to the test. I hear this from my students in many classes. And you cannot believe the despair I hear in their voices when they say this, they are beaten before they even start. I’m sorry but we are devastating the creativity of our teachers when we teach them this and creating an atmosphere where education is nothing but drudge work.

As far as doing research that goes against NCLB - I think it has been very careful and only deals with issues at the margins. The majority of research says that standards are still good, there are issues are more marginal like funding. It is b******. What is behind NCLB are the standardized test and the eugenics muck that they rose from a century ago. George Bush did not create this issue, he does not have that ability - he saw a good wedge issue that stays in the underbelly of our society and he brought it to the forefront to please his conservative base. Progressive education gained some foothold in the sixties, but today many schools of education will not hire you unless you do work in standards - the old progressives are dying and many of them have sold out their legacy for position in the field.

And the idea that schools of education are after money like engineering - duh. Please, if you don’t understand something you can write about it but do not get all high and mighty. There were big fights in the early part of the twentieth century are trying to separate the academy from both politics and religion. They feared control of ideas. The people who led this fight were those working in the human sciences (not so separated in those days) because they had the most to fear. Believe it or not how you educate and understand intelligence and morality holds a great deal more political power than engineering issues. That is one of the reasons the human sciences tried so hard to use scientific methods for their work. There has always been a much, much, much more uneasy relationship between the human sciences and outside money (although in our current atmosphere that is seeping in to the harder sciences).

by wilbur on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:33:06 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

let’s parse a couple of points (0 / 0) you claim that most schools of education are teaching their future teachers to teach to the test. You make that claim in your response to me, In your original comment you argued that they were telling the students that they had to abide by the standards. That is not the same thing. I would like to see what evidence you have for this latest claim. I follow a fair amount of professional literature, as well as general publications that have education-related articles. I am aware of no evidence for such a claim You dismiss my remarks about schools of engineering and go off on an interesting but unrelated tangent to which I will respond briefly anon. The issue was the seeking of more funding for their institutions, and making wahtever arguments they could in that regard. That was my point, that it is a basic human condition, and administrators in educational schools / departments are not unique in that regard. Either I was not clear on that point or you have simply decided to ignore the intent of my remarks in order to make a different argument. I will assume the former and apologize for my lack of specificity. I think yiour interpretation of previous battles for academic freedom is interesting, although I am not sure it is completely accurate. However, it is not germane to the point of my diary, and thus I choose not to engage on it at this time. I think it could be an interesting discussion in a different time and place, and did not want you to think that I was ignoring it. Education schools are under constant attack from the right — religious, educational, and political. Education schools cover a wide span of competency. There are truly terrific places, some of which are doing very innovative things. Cambridge College is one example, Alverno College in Wisconsin is another. These concentrate on preparing teachers. Some universities have worked to change the model of how teacher preparation is done. George Washington places students in school systems and they learn while participating in the entire life of the school while doing their education courses in evenings and summers. Maryland and other universities have developed professional development school relationships with certain schools (including the one in which I teach) in which there is an ongoing relationship between the school and the university, including the school faculty being able to take courses at the university to maintain and update skills and knowledge. Johns Hopkins has done work on an intensive in-school program of teacher preparation. Maryland now requires those wanting to be in the undergraduate teacher preparation program to formally apply after several years of undergraduate work, so that a proper determination of academic and personal readiness can be ascertained. I am mentioning only a few with which I happen to have direct knowledge or have read about in the literature. At the same time the other side is places like Bob Jones University and the like being allowed to run teacher certification programs (and the school of education does the actual certification under state guidelines in most states) in which one get be certfied (as an elementary generalist or even as a secondary science teacher) while never really learning about evolution (except insofar as it it against “god’s word”??? ).

I think you are making broad statements about colleges of education that are neither supportable by the evidence nor even insofar as there is some valid criticism entirely within the control of the schools.

I am sorry I will not have time to dialog futher. There are many other comments to which I must respond, and I have things other than this diary to which I must attend. I acknowledge that you have a genuine concern for public education, and that the remarks that you offer are not the actions of a troll or someone who wants to undercut public education. I do think the way you approach the issue is misguided, but I also acknowledge you may feel similarly towards my approach. peace. I look forward to further exchanges, on this or other subjects, in the future.

Those who can, do. Those who can do more, TEACH!

by teacherken on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:56:00 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

More literature (0 / 0) Glad you got in the last word Teacherken. Might I suggest Lisa Delpit’s “Other People’s Children” for some reading that might broaden your view point. And gee, thanks for not troll rating me.

by wilbur on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:00:51 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

I’ve read it - it is a terrific book (0 / 0) and i rarely troll rate - I usually only do so after attempting to clarify the dialog and encountering a willful blindness or obviousn troll qualities. You exhibit neither.

I fully expect that we will have misunderstandings and disagreements. It is by working through those that we can find common ground that enables us to move forward to positive action.

Peace.

Those who can, do. Those who can do more, TEACH!

by teacherken on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:09:12 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Having worked with Lisa Delpit in the past (0 / 0) I’m curious as to what in that work you would find relevant to this conversation? In particular since earlier you indicated that expertise doesn’t matter.

Seriously, if you want to get into the literature of Delpit and others, we can do that.

by MarkJohnsonLewis on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:41:54 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

I’m not sure he was insisting it was relevant (0 / 0) I took it more as an indication of his trying to express that he had a concern for what happens to children of the non-powerful, that the intent of his posting was not supposed to be negative. I may be wrong, but that’s how I read it, and why I responded as I did.

Of course, he can — and probably will - speak for himself.

Those who can, do. Those who can do more, TEACH!

by teacherken on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:48:30 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

I have to agree with teacherken on this one (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:teacherken, Alice Marshall I’ve been working with schools of ed for way too long. And maybe that’s giving me some blinders, but it’s also given me a unique view into the machinations that are teacher ed. The reality is that schools of ed are hampered by what their state legislatures tell them to do. And by and large, the largest producers of teachers are state institutions. Which means that Deans of education and in affect public employees. Which means they can’t lobby. They can inform, they can suggest, but at the end of the day, they have to do what their state legislature tells them to do.

And, no offense to those hard working legislators, most of them know bupkiss about teacher ed. NCATE isn’t great, but it’s the best game in town. Same can be said for NBPTS (sorry, National Board for Professional Teaching Standards). I know in a few instances there were state legislatures (I’m remember Georgia, but I could be wrong) who made passing the Praxis test a requirement for certification - and they made that regulation before Praxis was even out of beta-testing!

The pressures on Schools of ed are tremendous - in particular trying to figure out how they can stay in the good graces of the state legislatures (so that their university can keep getting their funding), complying with Federal regulations (which we already know are onerous and unfunded, but required), keeping alumni happy, and going toe to toe with the competitors at within the university (Business, Engineering, Science, Medicine, etc.) as they try to ensure that their president gives them the funds they need to stay in operation.

Furthermore, schools of ed don’t get much money from NCLB, with the exception of some minor Teacher Quality grants. The funding for Schools of Ed comes out of the Higher Education end of things. NCLB funds K-12 education. There is some crossover, but not much. And, trust me, there are a host of Deans out there who would like nothing better than to see the plug pulled on NCLB.

by MarkJohnsonLewis on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:27:03 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Schools of Ed (0 / 0) I can’t believe I’m getting in to this conversation. Schools of Ed don’t get money from NCLB, they get money to push the standardization line which is at the core of NCLB. If you don’t see that, we might get rid of NCLB but be facing the exact same thing in just a few years (this who thing is old wine in new bottles). Schools of ed don’t get money from the legislature and they can’t be killed off by the legislature. Their budget is determined by the Provost who in the end is answerable to the Trustees. The State Legislature can threaten, with public universities, to hold back money as a whole pie and put pressure on the President and Trustees that way. With private universities it is simply soft money. I can’t believe I’m hearing this is DailyKos. Oh, the Ed schools must do what the state legislature tells them (which isn’t true) and their gonna be in really, really big trouble. What about the idea of standing up for principles. A single voice in the wilderness is a cry, a million voices in the wilderness is a movement.

by wilbur on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:39:59 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

I don’t know where to begin (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:teacherken Schools of Ed don’t get money from NCLB, they get money to push the standardization line which is at the core of NCLB.

Who’s giving them money to push the standardization line? As teacherken points out somewhere, Schools of Ed have a responsibility (and some take it quite seriously) to prepare their students to be successful in the classrooms of today. Today, those classrooms require teachers to prepare and success on state assessments. If that’s what you mean by Schools of Ed “getting money to push standardization,” then I guess I can see your point.

Schools of ed don’t get money from the legislature and they can’t be killed off by the legislature.

The Schools of Ed we’re really talking about here are state institutions. In fact a legislature can pass a law that creates, or disbands, any entity of the state. Recently in Florida, the legislature decided that Florida A&M needed to have a law schools. The FAMU didn’t want it. But the legislature insisted - and since there’s already a law school in Tallahasee (run by Florida State) the legislature in their infinite wisdom put the law school in Orlando. Go figure.

Their budget is determined by the Provost who in the end is answerable to the Trustees.

And the Trustees in most states are appointed by the Governor (with “consent” from the legislature, similar to what happens on the federal level). Which still means that the budget of a School of Ed is being determined by some body of folks who may have zero knowledge of teacher training.

The State Legislature can threaten, with public universities, to hold back money as a whole pie and put pressure on the President and Trustees that way.

Exactly, which would put pressure on Trustees to do what, exactly? Oh yeah, cut funding to the School of Ed.

One question: do you have any experience in higher education? Above you state,

I really don’t want to get in to an argument of “qualifications to speak on a subject” with you. There is no such thing as an expert, only dialogue. And it is a sign of insecurity.

Since you brought it up, given that we’re attempting to have a dialogue about this, it would be helpful to have a sense of what you bring to the table - besides a disdain for the enterprise of teacher prep.

by MarkJohnsonLewis on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:36:55 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Add in the Repug desire (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:teacherken, Joe B to end public education and have everything run by the churches, etc. That way, our money can go to fund the Southern Baptist convention white only academies. Plessy v. Ferguson redux under the impimatur of the 1st amendment.

Patriotism may be the last refuge of scoundrels, but religion is assuredly the first.

by StrayCat on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:13:53 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Foxes in the Henhouse (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:teacherken, historys mysteries I graduated from a credential program in 2003, just as NCLB was setting in, so I don’t know how it is now but four years ago we weren’t taught nearly ENOUGH about how strictly we’d be forced to follow NCLB testing curriculum.

They were still teaching us arcane skills like lesson planning - no one warned us sufficiently about the curriculum straitjackets that would be enforced through regular (about every month) district-wide assessments, for example. About 95% of the curriculum comes out of a box from a major education publisher, most teachers have very little choice about what they teach, or when.

School boards and school districts need to protest NCLB, we need to elect school board members that will be leaders. My district (San Francisco Unified) is coming close to a teacher strike - the district claims it can’t pay salary demands largely because the state has been underfunding the district (and the feds are underfunding the state) . Where has the administration and the school board been all this time? Why they weren’t passing resolutions in protest of inadequate funding or SOMETHING? Why didn’t anyone say “NO”? They KNEW it was inadequate, but did they do anything to change it? NO. Why not? I wish I knew, but my feeling is that they didn’t want to “rock the boat.” The buck gets passed down and the teachers are left holding the bag.

It’s like the people running our public schools are the ones trying to put them out of business. That’s definitely true of our Secretary of Education:

When schools don’t live up to their responsibilities, we’ve empowered millions of parents with new options such as transferring their children to a higher-performing public or charter school or enrolling them in free tutoring.

We’ve worked with states and districts to expand public school options by supporting the growth of charter schools. In 2001, there were only about 2,000 charter schools nationwide. Today, there are more than 3,600 serving over a million students.

In Washington, DC, we’ve launched the first-ever federally funded opportunity scholarship program. We’ve given almost 1,700 low-income students in DC the chance to attend the private or parochial school of their choice.

But most importantly, we’ve armed the parents of 48 million public school students nationwide with the information to be smart educational consumers and become real advocates for their children.

How about empowering schools to improve? Our Secretary of Education is dedicating to dismantling public education as we know it.

Privatizing and commodifying education will work about as well as it’s worked for healthcare, and if I didn’t have to get to school I’d be going off on the similarities between the two situations.

Thank you teacherken - I wish I had more time to respond!

by hatdog on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:25:18 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

you did fine n/t (0 / 0)

Those who can, do. Those who can do more, TEACH!

by teacherken on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:33:58 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

After preparing for public school jobs (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:teacherken, historys mysteries, JanL I just took a job at a private school. At first, it was a marriage of convenience. They were desperate for a teacher and I a job! I truly believe in PUBLIC education, and particularly I’ve been planning to work with underserved populations. My course work, practica, and student teaching all focused on that. However, I think I am staying in the lap of luxury because of NCLB.

The small classes are nice, but there are as many negatives as there are positives. (I’d love 20-24, but often our 8-12 is too small!) I’m off topic…..

What is keeping me at the private school is that I have freedom to teach what I believe the students need and I do not have to focus on a test. If I can prove that we are working on skills and critical thinking, my headmaster is happy. I had two extra weeks of instruction while the public schools were filling out test booklets. NOT having all of that testing is liberating. I didn’t realize the pressure of the tests until they were removed. Those tests stiffle the curriculum.

Thanks, Ken, we must keep fighting NCLB!

“Dissent is the highest form of patriotism.” Thomas Jefferson

by Ambrosius on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 05:42:18 AM PDT

it can be possible to do in a public school (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:historys mysteries in general I have almost unlimited flexibility in how I approach my courses. Of course, on occasion I have taught courses for which there were no tests or even in some cases no system-defined curriculum (in one case I was also specifically given permission by the supervisor of social studies for the system to teach my Comparative Religion course while ignoring the county curriculum, which was old, because she was afraid that if someone didn’t teach the course the Board of Ed or superintendent’s office would drop the course from the approved list). Most of my teaching has been in courses where students must sit for state-mandated tests. I keep my flexibility because my students tend to do fairly well. I do not teach to the test, but I do teach a bit how to take the test, because it would be unfair not to.

Does that restrict my flexibility? Probably not as much as you might think. And since this year that test is May 24 and our students stay in school until June 9 I have over 2 weeks to be totally creative, and at least end the year on a very positive note.

I recognize that I have had far more flexibility than most public school teachers. That is one reason I advocate as strongly as I do, because I recognize the difference that it makes, first for the students, for whom the lessons can become far more meaningful, and then in the retention of teachers who are less likely to get burned out. That also helps the students.

Those who can, do. Those who can do more, TEACH!

by teacherken on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 05:55:59 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

We social studies teacher do have it best (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:teacherken since there aren’t a bunch of tests. Also, I agree that good teachers don’t get as trapped by the test as others. After all, good teachers know how to design lessons that help the students prepare for the test but don’t reduce education to a mere study session.

What drove me nuts was how much time we spent on test scores. Who improved? Who didn’t? What do the scores look like for our school??????? (that was the REAL issue!)

It strikes me that another downside of NCLB is how much time is spent on testing in teacher preparation. Not only is it a big topic in Ed. Schools, but testing was a topic every professional development session I went to last semester. Imagine if that four hours had been spent on improving instruction? That would have done more to improve education than all of this testing.

One of my instructors said something like, “weighing the pig repeatedly doesn’t make it fatter.” Let’s focus on improving the food!

“Dissent is the highest form of patriotism.” Thomas Jefferson

by Ambrosius on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:14:03 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

there are still state tests in social studies (0 / 0) often as a requirement for high school graduation. In Virginia SOLs apply at the middle school level as an assessment of the school, not of the student.

But you are right that NCLB lacks such required tests 3-8 and 10. In some cases that may give more flexibilit, but in others the effects are pernicious — eliminating most social studies teaching in favor of preparation for reading and math. Here I want to give credit to someone with whom I oftgen disagree. E. D. Hirsch has written that the concentration on reading in isolation is nonsense. That after basic instruction the way to develop reading schools is through reading in the content areas. And here I note that one course required for my certification was teaching reading and writing in the content areas. Some states already recognize that working on reading is an ongoing process.

Those who can, do. Those who can do more, TEACH!

by teacherken on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:05:32 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

no time now (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:teacherken but I will be back later. In the meatime, recommended!

Gore2008 , My PoliticalTheaterBlog

by TeresaInPa on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 05:57:29 AM PDT

thanks n/t (0 / 0)

Those who can, do. Those who can do more, TEACH!

by teacherken on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:02:07 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Let the flaming begin (0+ / 0-) Recommended by:madaprn Well, maybe not flaming, but I’m expecting I’ll get some interesting responses to this. For I have a radical idea (to borrow from Clinton in taking about affirmative action): Don’t end it, mend it. Apologies for the length, but this stuff is complicated and can’t be boiled down to a soundbite.

I understand the criticisms of NCLB. But let’s keep in mind that in a former life NCLB was called (and in some quarters still called) The Elementary and Secondary Education Act of 1965. And yes, I hang out with people who still call it ESEA and refuse to call it NCLB - with the exception of folks who will pronounce it “nickleby” (bringing a Dickensian view to this whole issue).

I refer now to teacherken’s comment about Miller and Kennedy. When this all came about in early 2001, I was chagrined (to say the least) to see Kennedy of all people working with the Bush folks to get this new version of ESEA passed. Now, keep in mind, Kennedy probably knows this legislation better than any other member of the Senate (having authored many sections of it), so I understand his investment. And I also understand (given the culture of the Senate) his inclination to work “with” Bush rather than against. But I may be digressing.

The biggest problem with NCLB is not how it is written, it is how it’s being implemented by the Dept. of Education. There’s actually some pretty good stuff in there - unfortunately, you have a bunch of morons running the Department, and their agenda is clearly one of closing schools, privatizing as much of education as they can (in the little time they have) and pretty much make the Department an irrelevant institution. And they’ve done a fabulous job of that.

Now we’re talking about a seriously huge piece of legislation. But if we could take an editorial view of things, go through it and simply strike any reference to school choice, that would go along way towards fixing things. Also, if ESEA had been fully funded, and in fact if additional funds had been added to assist the states in getting their assessment systems up to speed, I don’t think you’d get as much criticisms from the states and districts.

Look, the reality is that schools (and teachers) want to be held to high standards. But those standards need to be well thought out, agreed upon, reasonable, and legitimate. What’s happened with NCLB is that the Feds have unilaterally determined what is good and bad, with very little input or feedback from the states (not to say that there hasn’t been input or feedback, just that the Department has ignored it).

Another thing to keep in mind about this debacle that is NCLB, is that for the first time the Department is being run by a bunch of political appointees who have no business having that kind of authority. All that business with Brownie and Katrina? The same thing has been happening at the Department of Education. Trust me, I’ve worked with these folks - and having been in the education game in DC for over 15 years, I can honestly say I’ve never worked with a more UNqualified group of folks. I could give you some examples, but I doubt you need them.

As many of you (should) know, when legislation gets written, what’s in there is often not as important and the rule-making process, which is something that really occurs within the bubble that is the Beltway. That’s where decisions are made as to how things are actually going to happen. And the rule-making by this Department of Education has been negligent to say the least.

This is a long way of saying, let’s not throw the baby out with the bathwater. There are actually some pretty cool opportunities within ESEA, but they need to received the funding they deserve. I do, however, agree that Congress-critters of good conscious should vote against it - until it get’s fully funded. It’s up for re-write next year (which, remember, is an election year) so that is actually a really good time to have this debate.

by MarkJohnsonLewis on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:05:16 AM PDT

I have to strongly disagree Mark (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:Alice Marshall there are major problems with how it is written that totally undercut any vale it might otherwise have.

the entire idea of AYP is statistically flawed, and it is not just how it is being implemented. You are comparing this year’s thrid grades to last years. While on a extremely broad basis, say statewide, there may be enough in the population to allow that to maintain viability, within an individual school, and certainly within disaggregated groups in one grade in that school, the populations are likely to be so small that any differences in performance are far more likely to be due to factors other than the quality of instruction. That is just one problem. the idea of 100% proficiency by 2014 is absolutely nuts. Even if you lowered your proficiency standards (a dumbing down increasingly being done at the state levels to avoid sanctions) you will always have SOME —(SPED, LEP) who will not be able to reach that level. The entire approach of the bill is to assume that taking a punitive approach will somehow achieve positive results. Given how wrong that has proven to be not only in education, but in other domains as well, that is a fatally flawed assumption. The legislation has built into it financially undermining precisely those schools and districts which may need financial help I agree that we must recognize that NCLB is the current version of the Elementary and Secondary Education Act, the basic law which authorizes federal participation in K-12 public education. And as I made clear in the diary, even Jim Horn is not arguing for eliminating the federal role. What he is arguing, and what I believe is an intellectually coherent position, is that a long as you talk about fixing NCLB you have already lost the battle, because it is so fundamentally flawed on so many levels, including some of its basic underlying principles.

Kennety and Miller were “had” on this bill. I acknowledge that Miller has a legitimate concern that children in heavily minority inner city schools were not getting access to quality education - I applaud him for his concern, but the way NCLB attempts to address that is in my opinion inherently flawed. It may result in higher test scores, but given the way the punitive measures are structured will inevitably result in a shrinking of the curriculum to little more than test prep, to the elimination of music, art, and in some cases even recess and PE.

Unless we are willling to confront the issue as starkly as possible, we are not going to be able to frame the debate in a way that enables the enacting of major changes that are needed.

Those who can, do. Those who can do more, TEACH!

by teacherken on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:25:26 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

I love it when this happens (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:teacherken I actually agree with most of what you said! I may not have stated it very well. But I’m in agreement with your points. Maybe I was reading too much into the original ost by Horn.

And I do agree that Kennedy and Miller were had. It was horrible to watch that.

by MarkJohnsonLewis on Fri Apr 07, 20

By I'm a Wanker, Hear Me Roar

April 7, 2006 11:31 AM | Link to this

Let’s not forget that Plame was tracking IRAN and nukes by clammyc Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 08:37:23 PM PDT I’m calling b****** right now on this whole march towards war with Iran. And someone in the f*** press better do so as well.

In all of the excitement in today’s revelations about Libby’s grand jury testimony that Bush (through Cheney) authorized the leaking of classified information to the press some very important things can’t be forgotten.

With all this talk about how dangerous Iran is and how they are THISCLOSE to getting nook-you-lur weapons and must be stopped, let’s not forget that Valerie Plame and her colleagues were tracking distribution and acquisition of weapons of mass destruction technology to and from Iran.

More below:

clammyc’s diary :: :: Let’s also remember the similarities between the Iraq war calls and the same damn script being used towards Iran, just with a small change to the last letter of the country that Dear Leader and his merry band of criminals want to invade, now that they have f*** up both Iraq and Afghanistan.

But don’t you think that if Iran was labeled as part of the “Axis of Evil”, is supporting terrorism and looking to develop a nuclear weapons program then, by authorizing the leak of classified information that led directly to the collapsing of a network of CIA operatives who were looking to make sure that it didn’t obtain these weapons would be, oh, maybe “aiding and providing comfort to the enemy”?

Let’s remember what was previously reported on the “counter intelligence assessment to agency operations”:

According to current and former intelligence officials, Plame Wilson, who worked on the clandestine side of the CIA in the Directorate of Operations as a non-official cover (NOC) officer, was part of an operation tracking distribution and acquisition of weapons of mass destruction technology to and from Iran.

Speaking under strict confidentiality, intelligence officials revealed heretofore unreported elements of Plame’s work. Their accounts suggest that Plame’s outing was more serious than has previously been reported and carries grave implications for U.S. national security and its ability to monitor Iran’s burgeoning nuclear program.

While many have speculated that Plame was involved in monitoring the nuclear proliferation black market, specifically the proliferation activities of Pakistan’s nuclear “father,” A.Q. Khan, intelligence sources say that her team provided only minimal support in that area, focusing almost entirely on Iran.

Well, isn’t that just lovely. A year after Bush hung a bull’s eye on Iran’s back in his State of the Union Address and is currently public enemy #1 (Iraq who? Afghanistan what?), he (and other very high ranking officials in his administration) authorize the leak of information that leads directly to the destruction of a program that was tracking and trying to stop its development of a nuclear weapons program.

And now they want us to believe that this country is a “grave threat to the world”, depending on who you choose to believe, and must be stopped?

What the f***?

It certainly seems like this is a situation that they created by outing Plame and Brewster Jennings.

Intelligence sources would not identify the specifics of Plame’s work. They did, however, tell RAW STORY that her outing resulted in “severe” damage to her team and significantly hampered the CIA’s ability to monitor nuclear proliferation.

Plame’s team, they added, would have come in contact with A.Q. Khan’s network in the course of her work on Iran.

—snip—

Intelligence sources familiar with the damage assessment say that what is called a “counter intelligence assessment to agency operations” was conducted on the orders of the CIA’s then-Deputy Director of the Directorate of Operations, James Pavitt.

Former CIA counterintelligence officer Larry Johnson believes that such an assessment would have had to be done for the CIA to have referred the case to the Justice Department.

“An exposure like that required an immediate operational and counter intelligence damage assessment,” Johnson said. “That was done. The results were written up but not in a form for submission to anyone outside of CIA.”

One former counterintelligence official described the CIA’s reasons for not seeking Congressional assistance on the matter as follows: “[The CIA Leadership] made a conscious decision not to do a formal inquiry because they knew it might become public,” the source said. “They referred it [to the Justice Department] instead because they believed a criminal investigation was needed.”

The source described the findings of the assessment as showing “significant damage to operational equities.”

Three intelligence officers confirmed that other CIA non-official cover officers were compromised, but did not indicate the number of people operating under non-official cover that were affected or the way in which these individuals were impaired. None of the sources would say whether there were American or foreign casualties as a result of the leak.

Several intelligence officials described the damage in terms of how long it would take for the agency to recover. According to their own assessment, the CIA would be impaired for up to “ten years” in its capacity to adequately monitor nuclear proliferation on the level of efficiency and accuracy it had prior to the White House leak of Plame Wilson’s identity.

So with all of this news about Libby’s testimony (which by the way he and Cheney aren’t really known for being truthful and this could have been planned to hang dumb Georgie), let’s also remember another f*** up angle to this story. As the call for war with Iran grows louder, and the talk about how close Iran is to gaining nuclear weapons, just remember that it was Bush, Libby, Cheney, Rove and who knows who else that, by opening their mouths created a situation where Iran’s ability to obtain nuclear weapons was certainly greatly “aided and abetted”.

And Valerie Plame was trying to stop Iran from doing so before her cover was blown.

That can not and must not be overlooked in all of these developments.

Tags: Valerie Plame, Iran, nuclear weapons, Bush administration, George W. Bush, Scooter Libby, Dick Cheney, Brewster Jennings, recommended (all tags)

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One way or another, this darkness gotta give.

by clammyc on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 08:37:45 PM PDT

Not a side effect (35+ / 0-) Recommended by:Alumbrados, pb, thor, elizsan, RunawayRose, shpilk, elveta, melthewriter, Patricia Taylor, Mber, Eddie C, kharma, kredwyn, BurnetO, Catte Nappe, applegal, inclusiveheart, One bite at a time, MichDeb, el dorado gal, clammyc, Simplify, YucatanMan, GreyHawk, docstymie, wgard, sunbro, sodalis, Unduna, kraant, Ellicatt, blueoasis, jlove1982, MJ via Chicago, StrayCat As I said in a comment on HoundDog’s diary, I believe blowing the Iran nuclear humint network was an explicitly intended consequence of the Plame/Brewster Jennings outing.

As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. - Justice William O. Douglas

by occams hatchet on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 08:49:21 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

I agree…. (7+ / 0-) Recommended by:RunawayRose, Eddie C, stagemom, boofdah, sunbro, occams hatchet, kraant and unfortunately I picked a bad day to fly to Florida - I brought the earlier diary, the Waas article and the Fitz court filing with me on the plane but missed out on all of the comments from today….

One way or another, this darkness gotta give.

by clammyc on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 08:51:27 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Chalabi told the Iranians we had cracked the code (17+ / 0-) Recommended by:pb, RunawayRose, maggiemae, peraspera, semiot, kharma, joanneleon, clammyc, stagemom, YucatanMan, GreyHawk, occams hatchet, Sanuk, methodishca, kraant, Ellicatt, StrayCat but early in 2004 some CIA offical ‘accidentally’ outed all the Iranian CIA agents, according to James Risen in “State of War” page 190. (Also posted in HoundDog’s Diary) What the President says is executive privilege is nothing but executive poppycock. -Sam Ervin

by sailmaker on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 09:40:40 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

I’m thinking along the same lines … (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:rockhound, kraant, StrayCat Another thing that bothers me about the whole target Iran thing is that the Isrealis have long had backdoor connections to Iran. In spite of all the rhetoric on both sides, I’m not convinced they’re actually enemies.

Don’t ask me nothin’ ‘bout nothin’; I just might tell you the truth — Bob Dylan

by ponderer on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 11:51:01 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

even if not on purpose, this is still huge (7+ / 0-) Recommended by:elveta, el dorado gal, clammyc, occams hatchet, kraant, Yellow Canary, StrayCat Dubya: Iran has nukyular weapons!

Courageous Democrat: You said the same thing about Iraq - and that turned out to be so totally wrong that you’re either a known liar or a proven incompetent, neither of which makes me inclined to believe you.

Dubya: Ah, but this time we have proof!

Couraeous Democrat: How can you have proof? Your White House destroyed our ability to monitor Iranian nuclear activities when Valerie Plame’s identity was revealed. Her and her colleagues were working on this very issue, and somebody in your White House blew their cover. How can you tell us that you have proof when you destroyed your main source of information?

by Richard Carlucci on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 05:39:48 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Ahh, just one question - (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:clammyc, kraant, StrayCat What’s a “Courageous Democrat”?

Oh, yeah, that would be Harry Taylor.

(Yeah, yeah, I know - or Russ Feingold!)

As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. - Justice William O. Douglas

by occams hatchet on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 05:51:14 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

I forgot all about this point… (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:clammyc Now Bush is itching, it seems, to go to war with Iran and ONCE AGAIN our intelligence assets are gone.

Reminds me of a time in 2003….

— Check out my daily political cartoon - Town Called Dobson.

by StormBear on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:20:48 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Source on Plame’s Iran WMD connection? (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:Patricia Taylor, kraant I remember reading from several reputable sources that Plame worked on WMD anti-proliferation, but this is the first time I’ve read that she was working specifically on Iran. It would be good to have another source on this, since Raw Story has about as much credibility as Drudge. I don’t doubt it, but if I’m going to use this info on Plame I want it to be ironclad.

This revelation SHOULD be enough to sweep away any remaining diffidence to Bush in the media, but of course, it will not even be widely reported. The corporate media are shoveling the administration’s s** yet again, but this time national security has been flagrantly compromised by Bush. Why don’t the ruling elite care that Bush’s vindictiveness may have given Iran an edge on nuke development?

Why, indeed. I suspect it is because Bushco wanted Iran to develop nukes, so that they would have an excuse for war. The ruling class knows this, and they’re praying for war. Anything for profits and power.

-7.4, -5.9 | “Ignorance and bigotry, like other insanities, are incapable of self-government.” -Thomas Jefferson

by Subterranean on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 11:55:03 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

agreed (0+ / 0-) and while it is Larisa at Rawstory, I only found Steve Clemons as another source. But I don’t remember much in the way of anyone ever refuting this, and Larry Johnson also seemed to confirm, although not entirely directly.

One way or another, this darkness gotta give.

by clammyc on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 04:19:34 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Yup (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant If you can find ‘em, then help ‘em make some. Its too bad that we’ll never find out all the b****** thats been going on and who’s truly to blame. tung sol

‘cause you’re the green manalishi with the two prong crown—Peter Green, Green Manalishi

by tung sol on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 04:37:33 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

hate to state the obvious but… (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:clammyc …if something isn’t done to stop these guys in their tracks, now, we’ll be in Iran soon and there will be further fortification of Bushco power here…for the indefinite future. They aren’t going to stop unless made to. And they’ve pretty much said so.

Fasten your seatbelts, it’s going to be a bumpy night.

by Glorfindel on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:18:00 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Part of a campaign? (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:clammyc, kraant In a recent diary, leveymg reported/speculated that the career officials in the State Department, intelligence community and Pentagon would collaborate to try to (as legally as possible) derail BushCos race to war in Iran. Bush may have Napoleonic delusions, but they don’t.

If this is true, expect to see the leaks become more complete, consistent and credible as Bush keeps talking about Iran.

-2.38 -4.87: Maturity - Doing what you know is right even though you were told to do it.

by grapes on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 05:32:21 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Lets not forget that during the Cold War… (4+ / 0-) Recommended by:Catte Nappe, clammyc, kraant, Yellow Canary …Iran was one of our most important allies. Like Saddam in Iraq, we set up the Shah of Iran and SAVAK to give us a vantage point from which to spy on Russia.

For those familiar with the history of the various intelligence services, the termination of the crusades in the breakup of the Ottoman empire and the European and World Wars is strongly linked to current events.

The New York Times Discovery Channel “Why Intelligence Fails” CIA documentaries on sixty years of intelligence de-stabilization and mistakes is fascinating. Taken alltogether its a classic study of Blowback.

The New Jersey State Police and SAVAK

The New Jersey State Police was founded in 1921 by Colonel Norman Schwarzkopf, Sr., who served in both world wars and was father to General Norman Schwarzkopf of Gulf War fame.

Schwarzkopf: was the founder and the first superintendent of the N.J. State Police, and played a key role in the Lindbergh kidnapping investigation and the Hauptmann trial.

A West Point graduate and WWI veteran, he organized the State Police right after WWI. He returned to military service in WWII, rising to the rank of Brigadier General.

Later he served abroad and organized the police force of Iran, then an ally of the U.S. There his son, Norman Jr., formed his first impressions of the Middle East.

The police Schwarzkopf Sr. organized in Iran was the dreaded SAVAK, the Shah’s brutal secret police who tortured and murdered with a free hand.

A recent book, “Lifting the Veil: Life in Revolutionary Iran” by John Simpson & Tira Shubart [4], describes Schwarzkopf”s role in Iran:

‘I owe my throne to God, my people, my army —and to you!’ The Shah was speaking to Kermit Roosevelt, the Central Intelligence Agency representative in Tehran. … he certainly owed his throne to the success of Operation AJAX on 19 August 1953.

Faced with a powerful constitutional threat from his prime minister and political enemy, Dr Mohammed Mossadeq, the Shah briefly lost his nerve and fled the country when the soldiers sent to arrest his prime minister were overpowered and captured.

Kermit Roosevelt’s book (Countercoup: The Struggle for the Control of Iran, reissued in 1979 , together with recently declassified documents, have revealed further details about the coup. Using money that had been brought into Iran a few months earlier by General Norman Schwarzkopf, Senior, the father of the American commander in the Gulf War, Roosevelt set about buying the support he needed. Bribing the key officers in the police and army, and organizing partisan crowds from the bazaar with the help of British intelligence agents, he instructed them to attack mosques and pull down statues of the Shah while shouting slogans in support of Mossadeq.

First Shwarzkopf Sr. acted as bag man to help overthrow the elected government, then he trained the re-installed despots’ secret police, the SAVAK. His memory is revered among New Jersey state troopers and his son continues to come celebrate anniversaries of the organization’s founding.

The CIA and Nazi war criminals

Post WWII Cold War intelligence was focused on using ex-nazi’s behind the iron curtian

However, an important segment of the New Jersey Germans were pro-Nazi before the war and also gave safe haven to Nazis after the war. As we will see, these Nazis also included many Eastern Europeans and Russians, including the elite and largely White Russian SS VorKommando Moskau, which organized the killings of Jews and Slavs in Nazi occupied Eastern Europe and Russia.

Many members of the VorKommando Moskau were resettled in New Jersey by the US Government, shepherded by such stellar figures as Richard Nixon and J. Edgar Hoover, who considered these people to be stalwart anti-communist warriors and outstanding Republican vote getters.

With Mideast leaders in Iraq, Iran, and Saudi Arabia openly in our pocket and Anwar Sadat in Egypt, King Hussein in Jordan, and various factions in Syria, and Lebanon easily influenced with the right levels of funding and arms, many Islamic organizations were outraged at their loss of national sovreignity.

Post Gulf War the Bush administration initiated a major sea change in US policy that was in many ways 180 degrees out from the Cold War CIA policies of Reagan and Bush 41.

In 2002 The Bush White House embraced the view that Israel is the sole U.S. strategic ally in the region

The appeals of Arab allies to rein in Sharon have fallen on utterly deaf ears. The lack of response to date suggests that the Bush White House has now fully embraced the rightwing view that Israel is the U.S.’ only strategic ally in the region. And that the interests of Arab states, such as Saudi Arabia and Egypt, will have to take second place to the broader “war against terrorism.”

This shift in perspective marks a huge and potentially decisive victory for a coalition of largely Jewish neo-conservatives and Christian Right Republicans both inside and outside the administration. They have argued with increasing vehemence in recent months that Washington’s traditional deference — which they label as “appeasement” — to Arab rulers is ultimately counter-productive.

Who is the Pro-Israel Lobby?

Members of the anti-Arab lobby within the administration include: Paul Wolfowitz and Douglas Feith, the second and third in command at the Pentagon respectively; Lewis Libby, Vice President Cheney’s chief of staff and national security adviser; Elliott Abrams, a senior member of the National Security Council Staff; John Bolton, Undersecretary of State for international security; and John Ashcroft, the evangelical Christian who heads the Department of Justice. It is also evident that Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney generally share the views of their immediate deputies.

The shift from J Edgar Hoovers FBI based, pro anti communist nazi intelligence, to what emerged under Bush 41 was dramatic.

In the wake of the Bay of Pigs a new and much more ruthless, CIA led, Mosad taught, Interpol informed international “war on communist insurgents”, “war on crime”, “war on drugs”, “war on terror” “benign neglect” intelligence found root.

Post Cold War, Post Vietnam, intelligence was a whole different animal based on maintaining a monopoly on US access to the world’s resources in a way that would benefit US corporations.

In the post Vietnam disillusionment with half measures, the supression of thirdworld insurgencies wherever there were oil resources to exploit led to rationalizations for the Salvadorian solution.

The post World War II intelligence ethics that survived from Truman as essentially a New Jersey State Trooper, tough on crime, rubber hose in the back room, were transformed under Nixons neo-cons into a more SAVAC like secret police with enemies lists and the expanded use of the FBI’s wiretaping of Martin Luther King into the CIA’s destabilization techniques against anti-war protesters in the US.

During the Cold War signals intelligence replaced human resources and there began to be no real feedback about what sort of discontent was brewing in the streets.

The Salvadorian solutions popularity traces back to the arrogance of emerging international Corporate Empire being resisted by popular uprisings around the world and a reaction in the various intelligence services to the failure of pure signals intelligence.

An inability to convert cryptologists and mathematicians into field agents who spoke the languages and knew the cultures led to the CIA’s de-stabilization work of massive bribery, disinformation, kidnapping, torture, murder, rendition, reprisals, death squads and other strategic and tactical niceties.

Live Free or Die (-8.88 -9.49) IMPEACH

by rktect on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:33:12 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Maybe its own diary? (nt) (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:Catte Nappe

I see them bound by a philosophy with plans and tactics to impose their will on other countries. - G. Bush, on terrorists, 3/21/06

by Yellow Canary on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:22:17 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

wow—excellent summary n/t (0 / 0)

One way or another, this darkness gotta give.

by clammyc on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:52:06 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

I wonder if they were working on Saudi nukes, too (0 / 0) The Saudis are tied up with the Khan network. I diaried about the Saudi nuclear program just a week ago or so. Here’s the link: Forget Iran! What about Saudi secret nuke program?

Please note: the title, which starts out “Forget Iran” was meant to garner interest, and NOT state a political opinion. I agree with clammyc and others that the Bush Administration drive to war with Iran is a dire danger for this country, Iran, and the world. But, I believe the issue is larger and involves the entire middle east, nuclear proliferation in general, and the role of the U.S., the Pakistanis, and other players in all this. But by all means I don’t really mean forget Iran. Check out my diary if interested in the underlying facts involved.

“… the laborers still form an incoherent mass scattered over the whole country, and broken up by their mutual competition.”

by Valtin on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:16:58 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Three Birds with One Stone (0 / 0) I’ll bet that Bush/Cheney/Libby thought they were being very efficient and productive by outing Plame - They killed three birds with one stone.

Their disclosure of Plame’s identity did this -

Sent a warning to others in the CIA to keep their mouths shut about Cheney’s visits there to sculpt their reports in order to fit the White House agenda regarding the invasion of Iraq and strategy towards Iran. Worked to discredit Joseph Wilson’s op-ed article in the New York Times regarding Niger and a sale of yellowcake uranium to Iraq by implying that he was relying on his wife’s status as a CIA operative to get him work, thereby making him look like a wussy insider. Derailed and disconnected and paralyzed the working group Plame was part of at the CIA and so limited their ability to collect real intelligence and analyze it regarding the extent of Iran’s nuclear proliferation program. I don’t think any consequence of their action against Valerie Plame, the CIA, and our national security was necessarily unintended or a surprise to them.

Although I may be giving them WAY too much credit in all this.

It IS something for good reporters to think about and investigate, however.

by Patricia Taylor on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:29:41 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

And (24+ / 0-) Recommended by:pb, RunawayRose, Carnacki, peraspera, semiot, modchick65, BurnetO, inclusiveheart, Alien Abductee, clammyc, Simplify, YucatanMan, boofdah, Pam from Calif, GreyHawk, Overseas, sunbro, Unduna, occams hatchet, Sanuk, kraant, blueoasis, StrayCat, Kira April Her company was looking at the oil companies in the Middle East. How convenient, then, that it got shut down, too.

Liberal Thinking

Think, liberally.

by Liberal Thinking on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 08:42:29 PM PDT

according to Fox news (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:clammyc, kraant she was just a cia “staffer” nothing to see here move on—fair and balanced -bwhahahhaha

“once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right”

by jerseyjoew on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 04:01:55 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

thanks for posting (20+ / 0-) Recommended by:pb, RunawayRose, shpilk, elveta, semiot, modchick65, BurnetO, cosette, inclusiveheart, clammyc, YucatanMan, Pam from Calif, sunbro, Unduna, soyinkafan, fhcec, kovie, kraant, blueoasis, StrayCat Arrrrrgggggggghhhhhhhhh

I am so sick of this s**

UNCLE SAM wants YOU to help IMPEACH BUSH

by RumsfeldResign on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 08:45:41 PM PDT

Thanks for reviewing this stuff in (10+ / 0-) Recommended by:semiot, BurnetO, clammyc, stagemom, YucatanMan, sunbro, Unduna, kraant, Ellicatt, sailmaker the context of today’s news clammyc - it is really important that the effects of the lies and the corruption are put out there so that this doesn’t get swept into Jeff Greenfield’s meme about leaking “every President authorizes them”. None that Greenfield cited had an impact that might make one think more about notorious double agents like Aldrich Ames than about typical political sex scandal fodder.

by inclusiveheart on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 09:16:25 PM PDT

as I said above…. (9+ / 0-) Recommended by:MarkInSanFran, maggiemae, BurnetO, inclusiveheart, DrewDown, stagemom, sunbro, kraant, Ellicatt I had plenty of time on my hands since I flew to FL today. Read a few things on the plane and kept thinking how Plame was tracking Iran and how noone ever really talked about that.

glad you enjoyed…..

One way or another, this darkness gotta give.

by clammyc on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 09:19:33 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Did you read Terre’s diary with (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:peraspera, kraant analysis from Waxman? If not you should check it out.

by inclusiveheart on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 09:40:16 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

It’s my hope that (10+ / 0-) Recommended by:Mooncat, stagemom, boofdah, wgard, sunbro, Sanuk, kraant, Ellicatt, blueoasis, StrayCat everyone learns the name Brewster Jennings, what it was, and how it was taken down for cheap political gain.

Yeah, I’m trying out this blogging thing, too.

by MLDB on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 09:37:19 PM PDT

Let’s send in Hans Blix (8+ / 0-) Recommended by:maggiemae, white blitz, cosette, clammyc, stagemom, boofdah, kraant, Kira April and take him seriously this time. F’n A!

May we as a country become a respected member of the international community again…please??????????

-4.75, -5.33 Cheney 10/05/04: “I have not suggested there is a connection between Iraq and 9/11.”

by sunbro on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 09:45:48 PM PDT

Bin Laden trying to Bankrupt the US. So is Bush? (8+ / 0-) Recommended by:kdub, BurnetO, clammyc, boofdah, Pam from Calif, wgard, serrano, kraant Let’s not forget that little detail. Ronald Reagn didn’t defeat the Russians, Bin Laden did.

by bostonjay on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 09:46:48 PM PDT

every time the rich get another tax cut (8+ / 0-) Recommended by:bostonjay, maggiemae, BurnetO, clammyc, boofdah, sunbro, kraant, benthos Bin-Laden applauds, too.

“Rovus Vulgaris Americanus” nasty, soon-to-be-indicted co-conspirator -7.63, -9.59

by shpilk on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 10:10:08 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

And the Military… (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:bostonjay, clammyc, kraant didn’t bring down the Soviet military, economics did…you’re absolutely right! Bush, Cheney, and Rummy…just how different from Moe, Larry, and Curly??? Whoop! Whoop! Whoop!!!

These Stooges are bankrupting our country for generations, and probably hastening the end of the “American Century.” The ultimate beneficiary will probably not be Al-Qaeda, but China.

by serrano on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 03:47:20 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Many implications… (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:clammyc, kraant, StrayCat …great diary.

Is there corroboration from a source(s) in addition to Raw Story?

Pen Rai!

by Sanuk on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 09:48:02 PM PDT

see comment above (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:Sanuk, kraant the Raw Story source is more than a couple of months old, is by Larisa who I think is the better source there, and there are a few others (Steve Clemons, etc.) that also wrote about it.

But the sole source was a bit of a concern, even though I heard nothing to the contrary when this first came out.

One way or another, this darkness gotta give.

by clammyc on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 04:21:09 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Remember me (9+ / 0-) Recommended by:semiot, BurnetO, cosette, clammyc, stagemom, boofdah, wgard, kraant, blueoasis Hamlet’s dad walks all over the White House these days. Macbeth, Richard III, Ubu Roi. The revenge tragedies come to mind a lot these days as the Bush administration hits the wall. Ugly stuff behind, ugly stuff ahead. Such a mess they’re leaving us.

Almost every local to global danger we face was exacerbated by this bunch, and the records of Amnesty Int’l, and UNICEF, the CDC, and PFAW, and NRDC, etc. will show it. Slim comfort, that. But you’re right. Make sure it’s heard in context now.

Are we still routinely torturing helpless prisoners, and if so, does it feel right that we as American citizens are not outraged by the practice? -Al Gore

by soyinkafan on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 09:48:51 PM PDT

WOW! (13+ / 0-) Recommended by:RunawayRose, semiot, rockhound, rlharry, clammyc, boofdah, Pam from Calif, wgard, sodalis, kraant, blueoasis, Fraction Jackson, OMwordTHRUdaFOG If true, this is HUGE, as in whoever authorized this can and should be charged with a capital offense for committing a clear act of treason, to allow a known rogue nation to pursue its nuclear arms program in order to justify bombing it—which, if unsuccessful, could well lead to the deaths of millions.

WTF is wrong with these batshit crazy neocons?!? Not a one of them saw action in the military and almost none of them ever served, and yet they’ve spent the past 20 years hatching these absolutely INSANE plots to transform the world into some oil-fueled American Empire where absolutely NO idea is too crazy to try out.

I have this image in my mind of scores of neocons from Bush on down sitting in one mass defendant cage like the Mafia trials of the 80’s and 90’s in Italy, or even the Nuremburg trials of the late 40’s, to be tried by some US or world court for crimes against humanity. If they’ve really done all of this, there can be no other just way of dealing with them.

“Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it’s the only thing that ever has.” Margaret Mead

by kovie on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 10:00:02 PM PDT

Even if… (5+ / 0-) Recommended by:semiot, BurnetO, rockhound, clammyc, kraant Military action, i.e. bombing, occurs, and even if successful (whatever that means), such an act may still result in the death of millions! It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that Iran would not ‘roll over and play dead’, that their options for payback are many, indeed.

Life is not a ‘dress rehearsal’!

by wgard on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 10:13:41 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

That’s what I meant by ‘successful’ (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:semiot, clammyc, kraant I.e. we took out ALL of their nuclear weapons-related sites with minimal loss of life, and were able to prevent their retaliation.

Obviously a VERY high if not impossible goal to meet (and even if we did meet it, we’d never be able to tell for sure and would always live in fear of that massive coordinated attack they’ve been planning), which is precisely why this is such a stupid and crazy idea. There are other good reasons for why this is a bad idea, but this tops my list.

“Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it’s the only thing that ever has.” Margaret Mead

by kovie on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 10:26:49 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

agreed, no question (4+ / 0-) Recommended by:semiot, Steven D, clammyc, kraant They undermined the whole thing, possibly intentionally as occam’s hatchet noted upthread and in another diary earlier. It’s literally insane - they could’ve had a legit chance to resolve the whole situation without signifigant action, but (unsurprisingly) it seems like they’d rather go to war and blow s** up. I’m not sure how to make sense of it. And I honestly don’t know what happens at this point.

Jail for life is the least they all deserve, but I have to wonder if that’s also part of the reason for the buildup against Iran - maybe they figure no one will dare to do anything to remove them while we’re at “war” again. It’s interesting to think about, anyway. That’s why I think we can’t possibly get them out of office fast enough - it needs to be done recently.

“More a question than a curse, how could Hell be any worse?” - Bad Religion - Los Angeles is Burning — -6.88/-7.49

by Fraction Jackson on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 01:13:57 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Not ‘batshit crazy.’ That’s a legal defense. (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:clammyc, kraant Cool, calculating, driven STUPID AND EVIL M*******.

I’m batshit crazy. having watched this too-predictable clusterfuck play out over the last few years - while we wait for the g******* press to even ask a couple of questions. Like, “do you guys know what the f*** you’re doing here?” Or, “What’s the point?”

Arrrghhhh. It’s enough to make us all talk like pirates.

Slap those goddam hogs away from the trough. They’ve had enough.

by perro amarillo on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 04:30:43 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Bush Co. has a long history helping Iran (13+ / 0-) Recommended by:Lisa, semiot, ctsteve, BurnetO, rlharry, clammyc, Pam from Calif, wgard, taracar, kraant, ActivistGuy, StrayCat, cobalt blue For example: Iran hostage crisis Iran/Contra

Bush Sr. and now Dubya are part of a grand tradition of war profiteering. That’s the heart of it. They’ll out a CIA operative working on Iran one day to help buy favor with Iran, and then two years later build up to attack Iran. They don’t have an ideology to their campaign except PROFIT. Arm the Iraqis, arm the Iranians. Arm Isreal. Destroy and rebuild Iraq a couple of times, by proxy. Do whatever it takes to make $. Let everyone else kill each other, so long as you make a buck. Hey, it worked for Prescott Bush in WW2.

So when you look at the Plame outting, just see another in a long series of moves intended to keep the con going and keep power, for the inevitable opportunity to make a buck.

Dubya worships money.

by Data Pimp on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 10:00:45 PM PDT

what should we expect (5+ / 0-) Recommended by:Dave925, Steven D, clammyc, kraant, Data Pimp from the son of a druglord, anyway?

“Rovus Vulgaris Americanus” nasty, soon-to-be-indicted co-conspirator -7.63, -9.59

by shpilk on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 10:08:34 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Does anyone remember (4+ / 0-) Recommended by:Da Buddy, clammyc, kraant, ActivistGuy the Iranian military (or paramilitary) group that was in Iraq at the start of the war? I remember the “Iraq government”—or what passed for government—wanted us to bomb the s** out of them, but I think we tipped the group off and then just did a little damage to some tanks they had…and then I remember something about the same group being in Paris, and some threatened arrests. I recall this group as it had a number of women fighters. Sorry if this seems off topic, but something about this is niggling in the back of my brain.

by elizsan on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 10:09:35 PM PDT

Mujaheddin-e-Khalq (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:shpilk, kraant Long on the State Department’s list of terrorist organizations, recently removed from the list if I am not mistaken.

by ActivistGuy on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 10:14:40 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Great Diary! (8+ / 0-) Recommended by:maggiemae, semiot, Steven D, clammyc, boofdah, kraant, Ellicatt, blueoasis This is another case where controlling the news and controlling the media makes a huge difference in what the average person perceives as reality. If you have been carefully following the Plame story and reading everything available on it, then you have heard of Brewster Jennings and know that Valerie Plame’s covert work was related to the Iranian nuclear program. I have seen this printed in my local newspaper — although it is never the headline, or even in bold. I watch CNN and MSNBC pretty often and I don’t think I have ever seen a story that makes this connection. Certainly this has not been on the local TV news.

As long as the right wing controls a huge portion of the media, they will get a pass on everything.

by Mooncat on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 10:17:52 PM PDT

Plame Was The Target (15+ / 0-) Recommended by:RunawayRose, bostonjay, hrh, hmbnancy, semiot, high uintas, Catte Nappe, Dave925, clammyc, rjo, Pam from Calif, Overseas, kraant, Ellicatt, StrayCat From the outset this has smelled to me like classic Rove — a bank shot, discredit the husband, who’s the smoke, by outing the wife, who’s the fire.

What could Wilson really have done to derail the war against Iraq? Nothing. Why would that alone — silencing a critic of Bush war policy — have been worth it to go as far as outing a NOC to get him? It wasn’t.

But if you could destroy an operation designed to get at the truth about Iran — most likely that they are NOT an imminent threat to the US — then the easily deflectable political fallout of smearing Joe Wilson might be worth it.

Remember — at the time the Plame investigation began, John Ashcroft had not yet recused himself. In this insanely politicized climate the White House had to believe that whoever would be appointed to investigate the matter would be a loyal Republican stooge.

Instead, Ashcroft recused himself, an act in character with his refusal to sign off on the NSA leak deal, leaving the decision making to James Comey — an actual straight shooter who ended up appointing Patrick Fitzgerald.

I think they banked on people accepting their political dirty dealing as business as usual, and being too cowed to do anything about it, and for the most part the media did. They just didn’t think it would ever go as far as it has.

Luckily, Fitzgerald has thus far proved them wrong.

by edmond dantes on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 11:06:30 PM PDT

I agree (4+ / 0-) Recommended by:Catte Nappe, clammyc, kraant, Ellicatt The idea that Plame was outed to discredit Wilson never made sense to me. Who cares if she recommended him? And anyway, why would that negate the information he gave in his report? The logic escapes me.

Although perhaps these guys aren’t such brilliant geniuses after all - maybe they’re churning out harebrained schemes all the time, and this was just one that happened to come to light.

This, and that little thing known as the war in Iraq.

Perhaps some mighty victory is growing in you now. - Mike Finley

by hrh on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 04:22:15 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Excellent! (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:clammyc, kraant, StrayCat Nice job putting all these pieces together. Wonder how long FoxNews will keep up the “hearsay” argument. Thanks for this take!

RNinNC - Now, in Palo Alto!

by RNinNC on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 11:29:50 PM PDT

Our military is tired. (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant Bush really wants to be a “war president”; will the draft be reinstated this Dec?

“A child miseducated is a child lost” John F. Kennedy

by Pam from Calif on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 11:53:14 PM PDT

draft? (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:clammyc, sodalis, kraant only if diebold machines are used for the selection process.

“welcome to the monkey house” vonnegut

by realheathen on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 04:58:36 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

I’m calling B****** too. (7+ / 0-) Recommended by:Lisa, rlharry, Steven D, clammyc, kraant, PlanetTreasures, StrayCat Of course. But these days I guess you actually have to come out and state the obvious. And if the media doesn’t wake up and say it now, then Bush WILL nuke Iran anyway and things are really going to get very sick and very dangerous.

This man will either need to be restrained and imprisoned, or America is about to start a nuclear war propped up on the treasonous outing of our CIA agents and her front company. This man is a Traitor to our nation. He is not working for us. He is working for the Saudis and other assorted neofascist global corporatists and he needs to be imprisoned immediately before he kills again.

People. Nobody would believe the last 6 years if somebody tried to make it into a movie. People would walk out saying that it was ridiculous and overblown.

What’s the next 6 years going to look like? Nuclear War. We came all this way to let a petulant child like Bush start a nuclear War?

We came through the Cold War, and took down the Berlin Wall. The Soviet Union ended all so a retarded half-man can take all of that and throw it in the toilet?

We would be cowards and Traitors if we let Bush stay in office 1 more year. This ‘thing’ in office must be disposed of.

These men are sociopaths. They need to be in prison before they kill ALL of our children. And that’s for f*** real.

Lucky me! Not everyone can afford to be poor.

by killdiebold on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 01:22:47 AM PDT

Why doesn’t Israel sell Iran say 50 nuclear (4+ / 0-) Recommended by:bostonjay, semiot, clammyc, kraant weapons. Trade the nuclear weapons for oil. End of problem.

Japan, S Arabia call for nuclear-free ME

TOKYO: Japan and Saudi Arabia called on Thursday for a Middle East free of nuclear weapons and urged diplomacy to end the row over Iran’s atomic ambitions.

Saudi Crown Prince Sultan bin Abdul Aziz, who is also defence minister, and Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi issued the joint call after talks in Tokyo. “Both sides stressed the importance of urging all the states in the Middle East to accede to the Treaty of Non-Proliferation of nuclear weapons and making the Middle East region free from all weapons of mass destruction and their delivery means,” a statement said.

Although the statement did not mention Israel, Islamic states often use similar language to pressure the Jewish state which has never acknowledged its suspected nuclear arsenal.

Iran has refused to comply with a UN Security Council demand to freeze uranium enrichment, defying a warning from major world powers which fear that it secretly wants to develop an atomic bomb. The Saudi prince and Koizumi “confirmed the importance of supporting the international diplomatic efforts which aim at non-proliferation of nuclear weapons as well as working for a diplomatic solution to the Iranian nuclear issue.” Japan has close relations with both Saudi Arabia and Iran, its first and third biggest oil suppliers respectively.

In February Japan hosted Iranian Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki in hopes that Tokyo could use its warm ties with both Washington and Tehran. “It is important for (Iran) to walk on a path that does not lead to its isolation,” Koizumi told the prince, as quoted by a Japanese official.

Jang Group of Newspapers

Coming to your town soon! The Social Security Adminstartion Electric and Power Company. “Omen Tuffy” 1918-1992

by generic on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 02:08:34 AM PDT

TREASON TREASON TREASON (4+ / 0-) Recommended by:Steven D, clammyc, berko, kraant If ever there was an act of treason.

Bush and all his cronies should be impeached, tried, convicted, and given the maximum sentence of the law!!!

Just think of all the lives, the billions, and the destroyed futures the acts of these treasonous bastards have cost the United States, the US intelligence community who risk everything, and our brave military. What they have done will likely sacrifice the safety, wellbeing, and strength of the United States for generations.

I think, therefore I am NOT A REPUBLICAN!!!

by Reality Bites Back on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 02:12:29 AM PDT

I speculated long ago (9+ / 0-) Recommended by:RunawayRose, hrh, rlharry, Steven D, clammyc, serrano, dhfsfc, kraant, Ellicatt that Joe Wilson’s op ed on 6 July 2003 represented a crisis for the White House, and was seized as an opportunity by Cheney and the Gang to do what they had long desired - to land a blow on the CIA’s ability to get the facts, in particular the facts pertaining to future options regarding Iran. Valerie Plame Wilson and Brewster Jennings were as much the targets of the Novak betrayal as was Joe Wilson. Hasn’t it seemed implausible to you that Joe’s credibility would be undermined because his wife had something to do with his Niger trip? That, my freinds, is a cover story, in my book, designed to supply a figleaf of plausibility over an act of naked aggression against the real interests of the United States.

The name is not the thing named, the map is not the territory. — Gregory Bateson

by semiot on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 04:09:04 AM PDT

YES (5+ / 0-) Recommended by:semiot, rlharry, clammyc, kraant, Ellicatt I hope Fitz smells a rat here too. The cover story sucks big time. Who would ever go on a “junket” to Niger? A junket is when Tom Delay goes golfing in Scotland, not when a former ambassador is investigating nuclear proliferation in Niger.

Perhaps some mighty victory is growing in you now. - Mike Finley

by hrh on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 04:28:02 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

I Think He Does… (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:clammyc and so do the judges that approved his warrants. Remember when they seemed shocked over the momentous National Security implications??!!

by serrano on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:04:02 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Bushco-Saudi Connection (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:clammyc Particularly w/the Incompetent Boob (or was he?) John Bolton in charge of (undermining) the Govt’s nuclear nonproliferation efforts, Brewster-Jennings was a threat to their grand designs, in more ways than one.

Don’t forget, B-J (hmmm…) was also very, very close to info at Aramco that Bush and Cheney, w/their Saudi/Carlyle and Halliburton connections, certainly did not want in CIA hands!!!

by serrano on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:02:41 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Let’s not forget (5+ / 0-) Recommended by:RunawayRose, clammyc, kraant, Ellicatt, StrayCat Bush could have cut a deal with Iran on 2003 regarding its nukes AND HE TURNED THEM DOWN so he could GO TO WAR AGAINST THEM at a time of his choosing.

“I just had the basic view of the American public — it can’t be that bad out there.” Marine Travis Williams after 11 members of his squad were killed.

by Steven D on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 04:20:40 AM PDT

I’m figuring (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant, StrayCat Bush is planning the attack for late September, early October. It’ll be in time to ‘frame’ the election.

by Chincoteague on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 04:31:46 AM PDT

Three Days of the Condor - movie (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:clammyc, serrano, kraant the guilty party should get justice as did the guilty govt. party at tha end of this movie.

“welcome to the monkey house” vonnegut

by realheathen on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 04:56:41 AM PDT

One of my favorites (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant A CIA within the CIA.

Great movie. And very appropriate for the times.

by Chincoteague on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 05:29:44 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

And any discussion of this should begin (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:clammyc, kraant, StrayCat with the fact that Mr. Wilson was correct: the yellowcake story that led to this entire incident turned out to be fabricated, (knowingly) based on forgeries.

by Spud1 on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 05:10:04 AM PDT

Thanks. we do need to keep this on the front page (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:Catte Nappe, clammyc, kraant I haven’t read all the comments yet but I recall seeing a article posted several months ago that the outing was much more than an attempt to discredit Wilson. The article said, sorry I can’t seem to locate it, that the Brewster Jennings CIA front company was responible for stopping some shipments of WMD into Iraq from Iran shortly after the fall of Baghdad. The implication was that the administration was trying to plant WMD’s for later discovery.

by Dave n Indy on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 05:39:23 AM PDT

Iran is a sovereign nation (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:clammyc, kraant, StrayCat They’ve signed the nuclear non-proliferation treaty (unlike India, Pakistan, and India). There’s no proof that they’ve violated the treaty.

Yes, their leader is a religious wingnut wackjob. So is ours. Bush having access to nukes is a greater danger the the US than Iran is.

You can read my journal and see photos from my recent trip to Afghanistan at http://www.travelblog.org/Bloggers/Sharon-Jumper/

by Sharon Jumper on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:22:37 AM PDT

‘so is ours’ (0 / 0) you are dead on with that.

One way or another, this darkness gotta give.

by clammyc on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:53:01 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

A recent article showed up in Russian Newspaper (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:clammyc This bit appeared in Russian news recently:

Iran: Did the Ukraine sell them 250 nuclear warheads? MOSCOW, April 3 (RIA Novosti) - The chief of Russia’s General Staff said Monday he could neither confirm nor deny reports that Ukraine had sold 250 nuclear warheads to Iran.

“Russia’s General Staff has no information about whether Ukraine has given 250 nuclear warheads to Iran or not,” General Yury Baluyevsky, also deputy defense minister, said in response to an article in Novaya Gazeta newspaper Monday. “I do not comment on unsubstantiated reports.”

The newspaper said that Ukraine had failed to return 250 warheads to Russia in the 1990s when the former Soviet republic declared itself a nuclear-free zone. The paper suggested the warheads could have been sold to a third country, including Iran. Link

That may be speculation, although curious timing as to it’s sudden appearance.

What isn’t speculation is that Iran detonated it’s THIRD missile in a week. Not to mention the 10,000 strong ‘war games’ aimed at taking care of ‘threats’.

One million Iranians took to the streets of Tehran after September 11th in protest to show solidarity with America. And our clueless leader threw it away. Every last bit.

We cannot underestimate the threat his reckless policy poses to us, because in my estimation it’s a far greater one than any WMD’s he may decide we need to ‘pre-empt’ again.

Where are we going and what am I doing in this handbasket?

by Kira April on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:36:45 AM PDT

it’s disinfo (0 / 0) The Ukranians were responding to a claim in an Arab newspaper. They did sell some nuclear-capable cruise missiles to Iran, though. The last remaining nuclear weapons were transferred back to Russia in ‘96 with the help of the US.

Statement from Mr. Olexiy Rybak (to the IAEA)

-7.00,-7.74 “He is a bad version of us! No more money for him.”

by subtropolis on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:28:33 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

I never could nail down whom Plame worked for…. (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:clammyc There is plenty of info out there on WINPAC, MZM, and NGIC. Since our government likes to spread itself around thinly, and no one knows who works for whom…don’t you think Tenent should have known?

Can a bunch of rogue NGIC employees who retired from the government, be re-employed by a contractor (MZM) and tasked by WINPAC….say by Cheney et al, to do their bidding?

Say, Valerie Plames group of agents starts to figure this out…who to tell…everything is secret! There are no white hats or black hats………

And since MZM was taken out, replaced by whom? We need to find out where the feeding trough is now post haste! The money to fund these guys comes from MMS (Interior Department)……it’s all out there in plain site. WINPAC, CIA, NGIC is still functioning….but we need to know the tool.

by avahome on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:49:23 AM PDT

Dammit, ClammyC — wish this was out (0 / 0) before I posted my diary “Danse Macabre — and the band played on” the other day.

Between this and the comments/links embedded in it, I think the case for pulling the AUMFs would have been knocked out of the park.

:/

Never, never brave me, nor my fury tempt: Downy wings, but wroth they beat; Tempest even in reason’s seat.

by GreyHawk on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:19:46 AM PDT

Permalink | 66 comments skybluewater, Al Rodgers, reef the dog, wozzle, Alumbrados, davej, zzyzx, Alfred E Newman, Marek, pb, ssmt, Mogolori, Irfo, thor, radish, teacherken, Subterranean, Liberal Thinking, Schmendrick54, Gooserock, Robert Ullmann, janinsanfran, RunawayRose, Winger, Maryscott OConnor, Grand Moff Texan, RNinNC, Shockwave, Sherri in TX, Lipstick Liberal, cotterperson, Ralfast, Mnemosyne, jeremybloom, YankInUK, polecat, lilorphant, Carnacki, MarkInSanFran, zeroooo, Poika, Jerome a Paris, bostonjay, strengthANDwisdom, memberofthejury, RubDMC, RumsfeldResign, DaveV, tlh lib, Mooncat, bronte17, mentaldebris, nyceve, jem6x, Baldwiny, twcollier, jerseyjoew, ask, stevetat, Glic, Patricia Taylor, kgerber, rabel, greyhound01, hrh, Ignacio Magaloni, peraspera, murphsurf, hmbnancy, Bearpaw, Swordsmith, PeteZerria, not lois, ctsteve, marysz, high uintas, Alna Dem, Eddie C, kharma, hhex65, kredwyn, BurnetO, emmasnacker, NYC Sophia, fightorleave, American Zapatista, missliberties, TXsharon, HeedTheMessenger, wmtriallawyer, cosette, joan reports, Penny Century, lizah, cat chew, Catte Nappe, applegal, rockhound, rlharry, tombstone, lcrp, inclusiveheart, dcookie, One bite at a time, Da Buddy, CanYouBeAngryAndStillDream, Steven D, DrewDown, kd texan, vacantlook, Shapeshifter, Gowrie Gal, MichDeb, joanneleon, DCleviathan, rstnfld, DianeNYS, el dorado gal, LarisaW, Grodge, PBen, Luetta, station wagon, Valtin, juliesie, viral, stagemom, Richard Carlucci, YucatanMan, boofdah, lennysfo, Annalize5, majcmb1, freemark, Pam from Calif, Sharon in MD, Frank Palmer, jimstaro, GreyHawk, Overseas, sheddhead, annefrank, wgard, cymack, sunbro, collapse, mr thinkfree, wiscmass, serrano, Shaking the Tree, Unduna, Spathiphyllum, Indiana Bob, soyinkafan, taracar, martini, occams hatchet, kovie, Sanuk, methodishca, kraant, PatsBard, BlueInARedState, ActivistGuy, Ellicatt, Chincoteague, hoody, buhdydharma, The Wizard, quinque, Silent Lurker, MJ via Chicago, wild hair, StrayCat, Glorfindel, CTLiberal, Fraction Jackson, Carbide Bit, kurt, Kira April, generic, SnarcalitaNavigation Menu Home Diaries dKosopedia Search Create account Login Lose Your Password? wide narrow

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By BBE (the one and only)

April 7, 2006 11:32 AM | Link to this

Are you wankers getting paid for all this spamming?

Adios.

By Stupid Selfish Liberal

April 7, 2006 11:33 AM | Link to this

Bush Fires Himself: A Collection of Quotes by Delaware Dem Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 05:15:44 AM PDT According to the news this morning, it would appear that while it has never been done before in all American history, and while all national security experts say it is grossly negligent and reckless not to follow the normal procedures that we always go through when declassifying info and docs to make sure that we are not endangering lives and national security, it would appear that the President did not break the law in this instance. He can be declassify whatever he wants whenever he wants, it would seem.

But this incident does further reveal him to be a liar.

Delaware Dem’s diary :: :: Remember this:

Asked in June 2004 if he’d stand by his pledge to fire anyone found to have leaked, Bush replied “yes.” [Bush Press Conference: Savannah, GA, 6/10/04]

…

“I don’t know of anybody in my administration who leaked classified information. If somebody did leak classified information, I’d like to know it, and we’ll take the appropriate action.” [Bush Remarks: Chicago, Illinois, 9/30/03]

…

“The President has set high standards, the highest of standards for people in his administration. He’s made it very clear to people in his administration that he expects them to adhere to the highest standards of conduct. If anyone in this administration was involved in it, they would no longer be in this administration.” [White House Briefing, 9/29/03]

…

“I will swear to uphold the laws of the land. But I will also swear to uphold the honor and the integrity of the office to which I have been elected, so help me God,” said then-Governor George Bush [CNN, “Inside Politics,” 8/11/00]

…

“Americans are tired of investigations and scandal, and the best way to get rid of them is to elect a new president who will bring a new administration, who will restore honor and dignity to the White House.” [Then-Governor George Bush on CNN’s “Burden of Proof,” 9/15/00]

…

“Americans want to be assured that the next administration will bring honor and dignity to the White House.” [Then-Governor George Bush on CNN’s “Capital Gang,” 8/13/00]

…

“Please thank the personnel of your departments and agencies for their commitment to maintain the highest standards of integrity in Government as we serve the American people.” [Memo from President Bush to Executive Officials, 1/20/01]

President Bush on Oct. 7, 2003:

Q. Mr. President, beyond the actual leak of classified information, there are reports that someone in the administration was trying to - after it was already out - actively spread the story, even calling Ambassador Wilson’s wife “fair game.” Are you asking your staff is anyone did that? And would it be wrong or even a fire-able offense if that happened?

A. Well, the investigators will ask our staff about what people did or did not do. This is a town of - where a lot of people leak. And I’ve constantly expressed my displeasure with leaks, particularly leaks of classified information. And I want to know, I want to know the truth. I want to see to it that the truth prevail. And I hope we can get this investigation done in a thorough way, as quickly as possible.

But the Justice Department will conduct this investigation. The professionals in the Justice Department will be involved in ferreting out the truth. These are citizens who will - were here before this administration arrived and will be here after this administration leaves. And they’ll come to the bottom of this, and we’ll find out the truth. And that will be - that’s a good thing for this administration.

Q. Mr. President, how confident are you the investigation will find the leaker in the C.I.A. case? And what do you make of Sharon’s comment that Israel will strike its enemies at any place, any time?

A. This is the dual question. (Laughter.) I’m trying to figure out if I want to answer either of them, since you violated a major rule. (Laughter.) At least it’s not a cell phone. (Laughter.)

Randy, you tell me, how many sources have you had that’s leaked information that you’ve exposed or have been exposed? Probably none. I mean this town is a - is a town full of people who like to leak information. And I don’t know if we’re going to find out the senior administration official. Now, this is a large administration, and there’s a lot of senior officials. I don’t have any idea. I’d like to. I want to know the truth. That’s why I’ve instructed this staff of mine to cooperate fully with the investigators - full disclosure, everything we know the investigators will find out. I have no idea whether we’ll find out who the leaker is - partially because, in all due respect to your profession, you do a very good job of protecting the leakers. But we’ll find out.

President Bush on Sept. 30, 2003, talking with reporters after meeting with business people at University of Chicago.

Q. Do you think that the Justice Department can conduct an impartial investigation, considering the political ramifications of the C.I.A. leak, and why wouldn’t a special counsel be better?

A. Yes. Let me just say something about leaks in Washington. There are too many leaks of classified information in Washington. There’s leaks at the executive branch; there’s leaks in the legislative branch. There’s just too many leaks. And if there is a leak out of my administration, I want to know who it is. And if the person has violated law, the person will be taken care of.

And so I welcome the investigation. I - I’m absolutely confident that the Justice Department will do a very good job. There’s a special division of career Justice Department officials who are tasked with doing this kind of work; they have done this kind of work before in Washington this year. I have told our administration, people in my administration to be fully cooperative.

I want to know the truth. If anybody has got any information inside our administration or outside our administration, it would be helpful if they came forward with the information so we can find out whether or not these allegations are true and get on about the business.

Q. Have you talked to Karl and do you have confidence in him …

A. Listen, I know of nobody - I don’t know of anybody in my administration who leaked classified information. If somebody did leak classified information, I’d like to know it, and we’ll take the appropriate action. And this investigation is a good thing.

And again I repeat, you know, Washington is a town where there’s all kinds of allegations. You’ve heard much of the allegations. And if people have got solid information, please come forward with it. And that would be people inside the information who are the so-called anonymous sources, or people outside the information - outside the administration. And we can clarify this thing very quickly if people who have got solid evidence would come forward and speak out. And I would hope they would.

And then we’ll get to the bottom of this and move on. But I want to tell you something - leaks of classified information are a bad thing. And we’ve had them - there’s too much leaking in Washington. That’s just the way it is. And we’ve had leaks out of the administrative branch, had leaks out of the legislative branch, and out of the executive branch and the legislative branch, and I’ve spoken out consistently against them and I want to know who the leakers are.

President Bush on June 10, 2004, at news conference after G-8 Summit in Sea Island, Ga.

Q. Given recent developments in the C.I.A. leak case, particularly Vice President Cheney’s discussions with the investigators, do you still stand by what you said several months ago, suggestion that it might difficult to identify anybody who leaked the agent’s name? And …

A. That’s up …

Q. And do you stand by your pledge to fire anyone found to have done so? And …

A. Yes.

Q. And finally …

A. And that’s up to the U.S. attorney - to find the facts.

Q. My final point would be - or question would be, has Vice President Cheney assured you, subsequent to his conversations with them, that nobody in his office had anything …

A. I haven’t talked to the vice president about this matter, and I suggest - recently, and I suggest you - you talk to the U.S. attorney about that.

If Bush is any kind of man, if he is a man of his word, if he is an honest man, he will fire himself today by offering his resignation, as he promised to do. If he does not, then he is scum, a liar, a weasel, more slick than Willie ever was, who has besmearched and tainted the White House with lies, deceit and untruth, all to cover his lilly white a*.

Tags: George W. Bush, CIA Leak, Recommended (all tags)

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very good …but (5+ / 0-) Recommended by:tmo, Lahdee, hrh, SensibleShoes, kraant I do NOT believe the president can declassify any information he want’s. No matter how much buish lies and the media swears to it, I just do not believe that to be true.

Gore2008 , My PoliticalTheaterBlog

by TeresaInPa on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 05:19:46 AM PDT

I think there are (10+ / 0-) Recommended by:wozzle, DCDemocrat, kissfan, MrSandman, NYC Sophia, Sanuk, kraant, Truza, scottman, vome minnesota procedures, but they are not codified. As such the President can ignore them.

My Photoblog, Milhouse’s Glasses

by Delaware Dem on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 05:28:08 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Georgia10 had a great diary on this (4+ / 0-) Recommended by:wlkx, kraant, GodRifle regarding Cheney’s involvement called Cheney & Classification.

Worth a reread, but it isn’t pretty.

So, if we accept that “entity” includes individual entities like the Vice-President, it looks like Cheney should have asked permission from the “originating agency” (the CIA) before authorizing Libby to leak. Also, it may be that Cheney’s declassification—even if it was consistent with this order—should have gone through the mandatory declassification review in Section 3.5(a).

In this case, that would be gaining permission from the CIA. But even Georgia10 admits:

The Vice-President’s decision to declassify this information may not be judged in the courts, but rather in the court of public opinion. Courts long have been hesitant to question the President’s discretion in dealing with classified materials.

Guess we just have to rely on Bush firing himself.

by MrSandman on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:15:53 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Very handy (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant thank you

The Christian Right is neither Witness Every Day

by TXsharon on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:17:24 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

The president can declassify generally, sure… (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:scottman But, can he declassify NOC identities, which is expressly prohibited by statute? That’s the key issue here if declassification procedures weren’t codified by congress or were codified by executive order or some such.

by My Philosophy on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:39:04 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

A great discussion of declassification (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:bonesy is up on mediamatters. In the comments section is a link to the executive order. One commentator in the discussion raises some real issues concerning procedure:

It says, “An original classification authority may extend the duration of classification, change the level of classification, or reclassify specific information only when the standards and procedures for classifying information under this order are followed.”

A REITERATION THAT PROCEDURE MUST BE FOLLOWED.

It says, “Prior to public release, all declassified records shall be appropriately marked to reflect their declassification.”

OOOPS. IF THIS INFO HAD BEEN PROPERLY MARKED AS DECLASSIFIED, then SCOOTER WOULD NOT HAVE EVEN QUESTIONED WHETHER IT COULD BE RELEASED. OBVIOUSLY, this procedure was NOT followed.

It says, “The reclassification action is taken under the personal authority of the agency head or deputy agency head [this could be the President], who determines IN WRITING that the reclassification of the information is necessary in the interest of the national security.”

HERE’s a CONCRETE REQUIREMENT: An analysis IN WRITING. Did Bush produce one? So far, there is no evidence he did.

It says, “The reclassification action is reported promptly to the Director of the Information Security Oversight Office.”

WAS IT? The evidence so far shows only Scooter through Cheney relating the spoken order of the President in the “chain” of declassification. If the D.I.S. was NOT promptly informed, this is another procedural error/diversion from the LAW.

I don’t think declassification was meant to be used as an instantaneous weapon against political critics.

Sounds like the law was not followed by my reading. But, hey, we all know how much respect Bush has for the law.

by MrSandman on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:53:37 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Bush and the Law (0 / 0) I’m afraid that we’re in for another round of “Defend the Unitary Executive” from his apologists.

We’ll hear that whatever W wants to do is legal because he’s a Republican President and Title II (and Jesus) grants him Unlimited Power To Keep Us Safe ™ by blowing the cover of a CIA agent.

We are the ones we’ve been waiting for. I’m a grassroots candidate.

by Malacandra on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:02:31 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

You have just provided me with a CORNUCOPIA (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:Delaware Dem of material for my Fox appearance today.

THANK you.

-9.63, -7.03 Rage, rage against the Lying of the Right

by Maryscott OConnor on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:26:06 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

You must mention me by Name!!!! (0 / 0) Hahahaha.

My Photoblog, Milhouse’s Glasses

by Delaware Dem on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:33:09 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Yes, well… (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:Delaware Dem assuming I don’t get bumped again so Terry McAuliffe can bloviate inffectually, I will do my best to credit “Delaware Dem — but he doesn’t livein Delaware anywmore, it’s complicated” with the source of the quotes.

-9.63, -7.03 Rage, rage against the Lying of the Right

by Maryscott OConnor on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:12:43 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

The one issue (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant is that this is exactly what he will claim. And by saying he didn’t know of any classified leaks, he could claim that because he declassified it, it therefore is not a classified leak. Dishonest? Absolutely. Yet I wouldn’t be surprised if he got away with it again.

by jlove1982 on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:30:20 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

people will never stop arguing (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:Delaware Dem, kraant about this particular point of presidential privilege. in the most abstract, it is pretty clearly up to the executive — and thus, ultimately, the president — to decide what information should be kept secret and what information should not.

I am not a lawyer. So what follows is opinion.

Congress can presumably make all sorts of laws respecting the treatment and handling of sensitive information, but i doubt whether this Supreme Court, or indeed most others through history, would have asserted Congress’s prerogatives over those of the executive.

However, the president enjoys a wide variety of other executive powers that are subject to one critical constraint: that power is to be exercised with integrity. He can no more “declassify” information in order to wage a political vendetta, than he can issue a pardon in return for a bribe. If “declassifying” the information can be shown:

a. to be motivated by partisan or similar political needs, and b. to have harmed the nation’s security.

then he is in violation of the oaths he took when assuming office. In the leaking of the information and the subsequent obstruction of justice, he has committed High Crimes and Misdemeanors.

I am further of the opinion that the President must be impeached and removed from office!

by UntimelyRippd on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:30:36 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Here is he analysis from Waxman (5+ / 0-) Recommended by:Categorically Imperative, hrh, gsbadj, Yellow Canary, UntimelyRippd and others put together by Terre in a diary last night that was sadly over looked. Waxman raises serious questions about the legality of the President’s behavior.

WAXMAN to Bush: Rove, Hadley, & others may have violated EO 12598

Waxman focuses on the procedures of declassifying information and the fact that those procedures were not followed.

Declassified documents are supposed to be made public - for all to see - not selectively leaked to individual media reporters.

In reviewing Waxman’s letter to the President, it is clear that at this stage it is premature to be claiming a legal victory for the President in this situtation.

by inclusiveheart on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:51:10 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

i guess my point is that (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:inclusiveheart it doesn’t matter whether the president has authority to declassify information, using whatever process he sees fit. he still cannot exercise that authority for reasons other than faithfully carrying out his duties as President.

were he to diligently follow the specified process in order to make public our battle plan on the eve of an invasion, he would be guilty of treason, quite regardless of his authority to declassify the information.

I am further of the opinion that the President must be impeached and removed from office!

by UntimelyRippd on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:01:35 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

I agree with your point and the bonus point (0 / 0) in this scenario is that not only was he probably not using this information in order to faithfully carry out his duties as President, but he also most definitely compromised security by NOT following the procedures for declassifying the information.

The wonderful (sad) irony here is that had Bush followed procedure and sent the declassification order to the classifying agency - the CIA - the agency would have been able to prepare for the public release by adjusting its spy network to protect the agents in the field who might have been put in harms way. Further, had he notified the classifying agency the CIA would NEVER have called for the investigation into the leak! Think about that for a minute. There would be no Fitzgerald. Bush’s administration would not be under investigation at all. Because he blindsided the CIA by releasing this information, he set himself up for this fall.

The White House is caught out here not only endangering national security and the people working to maintain that for what seems to be political, but they also made a critical tactical error by mismanaging the process that put them in the center of an investigation they could have prevented.

by inclusiveheart on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:15:23 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

What about lying to Fitz? (0 / 0) Umm, last I heard, lying to a prosecutor is against the law, whether it’s about classified or unclassified material.

“I intend to live forever. So far, so good.” Steven Wright

by gsbadj on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:31:12 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

I don’t buy it either (0 / 0) At the very least, the President should have to check with the CIA before declassifying anything that relates to their activities. Even assuming the best of motives (clearly not true in this case), there’s no way the President can be aware of all the potential ramifications of such a declassification.

Even if it’s technically legal for a President to declassify on a whim, without consulting with the experts, it would be the height of irresponsibility to do so.

Perhaps some mighty victory is growing in you now. - Mike Finley

by hrh on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:07:41 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

I need some clarification … (0 / 0) The logic appears to follow this way …

It is against the law to “out” a CIA agent Bush, as President, can declassify any information any time he wants - and for any reason Bush utilized #2 and declassified information that “outted” an undercover NOC OK …

How does it not follow that Bush didn’t break the law?

Why would the WH want to stick with the story that the President (or even VP) can declassify information willy-nilly? This is what Cheney was dropping a few weeks back in that Hume interview.

I’m not buying the “well, we declassified it - so the law doesn’t apply” approach. The declassification alone (if it actually occurred) may not have broken the “letter of the law”, but certainly broke the “spirit of the law”.

Got centure? by Shawshank on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:33:08 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Can I now say… (0 / 0) … that Bush is a lying sack of s**? If not now, just when in the world will I be able to?

It reminds me of a friend of mine’s response to Bush, “I was never a fan of Clinton, but Bush truly shows that my issues with Clinton were all in the minutia. Now I look back and realize how good we had it… as in having a decent job.”

— Check out my daily political cartoon - Town Called Dobson.

by StormBear on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:13:19 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

‘Bush fires himself’ (4+ / 0-) Recommended by:UniC, letsfight, kraant, scottman Oh, wouldn’t that be AWESOME!!! I guess we can dream…

Jesus is still a liberal

by Boston to Salem on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 05:22:19 AM PDT

Howard Dean should pick up on this (4+ / 0-) Recommended by:wintersnowman, UniC, kraant, scottman wouldn’t that be fun!

Gore2008 , My PoliticalTheaterBlog

by TeresaInPa on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 05:37:22 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Fat chance (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant that would require integrity. The only worse than the coming oil shortage is the current shortage of integrity in the Bush administration.

by Hard to Port on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 05:55:33 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Great to have these quotes all in 1 place… (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant, Ellicatt Thanks, Delaware Dem! Recommended.

by DaveV on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 05:27:56 AM PDT

how can the media possibly spin this (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant oh wait, they don’t have to mention it

by periphrastik on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 05:37:11 AM PDT

Hey, he told the truth here: (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:Sanuk, kraant And if there is a leak out of my administration, I want to know who it is. And if the person has violated law, the person will be taken care of.

the person will be taken care of, in the finest of fine fashions.

Btw… he says he is ‘particularly’ concerned about leaks, esp leaks of classified info. Let me get this straight: is it really a LEAK if information is not classified? Isn’t that just spreading legally available information???

They are so caught up in their tangled web of disinformation…

LetsFight. re handle: Fight the radical right is the sentiment!

by letsfight on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 05:46:32 AM PDT

The Medal of Freedom for Bush! (7+ / 0-) Recommended by:Dr Van Nostrand, Delaware Dem, Plutonium Page, UniC, Sanuk, kraant, Yellow Canary But who will give it to him?

In the long run, we’re all dead (Keynes) Read more on the European Tribune - bringing dKos to Europe

by Jerome a Paris on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 05:51:50 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Delay can (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:Jerome a Paris, kraant when they are in jail together…

by volballplr on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 05:58:37 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

judith miller…nt (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:Jerome a Paris

by 73rd virgin on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:35:14 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

I wish he was still just a governor in 05? (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant “Americans are tired of investigations and scandal, and the best way to get rid of them is to elect a new president who will bring a new administration, who will restore honor and dignity to the White House.” [Then-Governor George Bush on CNN’s “Burden of Proof,” 9/15/05]

by DickCheneyBeforeHeDicksYou on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 05:55:42 AM PDT

Whoops. (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:paradox, kraant I will edit. My Photoblog, Milhouse’s Glasses

by Delaware Dem on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:03:03 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Please don’t wish that on us (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:paradox, kraant

The Christian Right is neither Witness Every Day

by TXsharon on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:18:44 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

they will claim (5+ / 0-) Recommended by:One bite at a time, kraant, Ellicatt, GodRifle, Darrell J Gahm that there was no misspeaking. He twittered,

If somebody did leak classified information, I’d like to know it, and we’ll take the appropriate action.

and the appropriate action here, to the wingnutspinners, is nothing - because it was all a little word game…he didn’t break the law, because he is above the law due to the fact that he’s fighting terrists.

He also spewed:

And if the person has violated law, the person will be taken care of.

…see? Gotcha! He cannot violate the law, if terrist-fightin’ is on his mind!

I don’t like country music, but I don’t mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means ‘put down.’- Bob Newhart

by condoleaser on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 05:56:59 AM PDT

Thanks (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant, scottman Delaware Dem for the one-stop shopping…yet more ammo to throw in the faces of Rethugs when they stammer “but, but…Clinton lied about a blow job!”. George Bush lied, repeatedly and on the public record, about matters of national security. It’s now only a matter of time before his removal from office. Any betting pools yet on impeachment vs. resignation?

by GodRifle on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 05:58:47 AM PDT

Someone needs to send these… (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant … to www.dubyaspeak.com, at least the ones they don’t have yet. It’s such a nice collection.

Challenge: who can find some more?

(Can you tell I used to teach? EXTRA CREDIT, KIDS!)

fight the greed and the federals / fight the need and the toxic spills / drink from that wishing well / but may it never quench your thirst…

by Plutonium Page on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:01:16 AM PDT

Yes, post some more and I will add them to the (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant Diary. Thanks!

My Photoblog, Milhouse’s Glasses

by Delaware Dem on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:03:58 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Bush Will fire himself when hell freezes over (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant and it’s springtime so D.C. probably won’t be getting a blizzard dumping 5+ feet of snow on it anytime soon.

Don’t be so afraid of dying that you forget to live.

by LionelEHutz on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:03:30 AM PDT

Incredible (9+ / 0-) Recommended by:Malacandra, wintersnowman, Eddie C, Geronimo, Sanuk, kraant, Yellow Canary, bonesy, GodRifle Bush’s search for “the real leaker” reminds me of O.J. Simpson’s search for “the real killer” about a decade ago.

O.J.’s search was usually conducted on the 5th fairway at the Brentwood Country Club. I’m guessing that Bush’s “search” has about the same scope and overall level of integrity.

Bush also shares O.J.’s approval rating. Although I could see O.J.’s being higher, given that he only sent two innocent people to their deaths. Bush, the last time I checked, was somewhere in the 50,000 range.

I wonder how many Senate Democrats are wanting to jump on the Feingold censure bandwagon today.

I’m a man who discovered the wheel and built the Eiffel Tower out of metal and brawn — Ron Burgundy

by IndyScott on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:07:02 AM PDT

Great Point On Bush Finding the Leaker (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant Libby was the ONLY person authorized by Bush to tell reporters about select portions of the NIE to defuse Wilson’s criticisms of Bush’s WMD claims.

And someone also leaked that Wilson’s wife worked for the CIA (and played a role in Wilson going to Niger).

But Bush couldn’t figure out that Libby was the one who leaked about Plame.

I realize Bush is uncurious, but please. Even a moron like Bush could follow this trail. Let’s be honest for a moment. There is no way that Bush did not know Libby leaked Plame’s info. No f*** way.

by phild1976 on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:24:04 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

why do you think he’s always clearing brush? (0 / 0) the real leaker is hiding in the bushes on his ranch, im sure.

by 73rd virgin on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:21:08 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

One Additional Qoute (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:Delaware Dem, gsbadj, kraant that needs to be remembered is the statement by George H.W. Bush regarding leaking CIA identities and treason.

by ROGNM on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:10:11 AM PDT

Great diary, Delaware Dem! (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:Delaware Dem, kraant There are many people I’m going to forward this to!

Oh, and you’re right about the glass building by 30th St. Station (is it the ARCA building?) I didn’t care much for it until I saw the pictures you posted. Then I drove by at sunset and it was beautiful. (It still has some strange angles, though. But then, don’t we all?)

Separation of Church and State…the FIRST amendment

by dazed in pa on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:14:27 AM PDT

spelling…lilly… weasel… (5+ / 0-) Recommended by:wozzle, Eddie C, nika7k, kraant, GodRifle sorry to be nitpicky on spellin…

Honor? Bush? that man hasn’t displayed honor since… ever…

He disgraced his country when weaseling out of Vietnam by going into the Alabama Air National Guard instead of deploying overseas like John Murtha and John Kerry… then, he dishonored the guard by weaseling out of THAT service because he wanted to go play in college before his time was up.. awww, poor baby.

Then, he ran businesses into the ground, drank himself silly, married a ditzy bimbo, had 2 girls who are clueless and walk in his ignorant footsteps (not their fault however, their Dad is an incompetent moron)… what else?

Oh yeah, running this country into the ground and destroying our economy, bankrupting our treasury, international standing, and military…

I would say this f*** is the worst miserable failure ever to grace our presence…

Jesus was a revolutionary.

by a gnostic on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:18:27 AM PDT

a sorry nitpicker you are, (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant because “lily” (the white flower) is spelled correctly in the diary.

not to be confused with “Lilly” the pharmaceutical giant.

but i admit that “weisel” made me flinch.

I am further of the opinion that the President must be impeached and removed from office!

by UntimelyRippd on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:34:26 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Depends on what the definition of ‘fire’ is. (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant Since one typcially does not refer to one’s self as “someone,” it’s obvious that Dubya was excluding himself from this threat.

However, had he said, “If Me did leak classified information, Me’d like to know it, and Me’ll take the appropriate action.” (Note caps, it’s that Messiah complex.) Me, err, he’d have a problem.

by The Eyewitness Muse on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:28:30 AM PDT

Great diary. Thanks. ( n/t ) (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant

We’re working on many levels here. Ken Kesey

by BenGoshi on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:29:14 AM PDT

thanks, DD (0 / 0) glad to have you on a topic i can respect you for

by essexgreen on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:40:53 AM PDT

See, I am not totally evil. (0 / 0)

My Photoblog, Milhouse’s Glasses

by Delaware Dem on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:51:23 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

If you can’t say anything nice… (0 / 0) What is this? A very small thing, to be sure, but if you’re going to be a positive force in this world please don’t hedge it. The good acts we do need all the force we can give them.

by paradox on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:05:58 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

It so happens… (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:paradox, Delaware Dem … that your friend here is only MOSTLY evil.

There’s a big difference between mostly evil and totally evil. Mostly evil is slightly good. With all evil, with all evil there’s usually only one thing you can do.”

Inigo Montoya: What’s that?

Miracle Max: Award him the Medal of Freedom.

We are the ones we’ve been waiting for. I’m a grassroots candidate.

by Malacandra on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:11:07 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Video Montage (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:paradox Thanks.

This would make a terrific video for someone with the skills and video clips.

by ctsteve on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:45:46 AM PDT

So, is this Libby’s and this admin’s…. (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:Delaware Dem …”Get Out of Jail” card? They can now just say that it was the President who gave the OK, and since he had every right to declassify it, no one (again) can be legally held accountable? Is this the whole point?

Blogging on PTSD Combat

by ilona on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:47:34 AM PDT

Bush is a liar and will do his own version of (0 / 0) it depends on “what is, is.” In fact I think he’s already dunnit.

He needs a little more public shaming ala Harry Taylor fashion. After sleeping on it last night, it might be the only thing that gets to this guy. Barbara must have given him heaps of it. It makes me cringe to think of it, but you know, all said and done, the man deserves shame.

by towit on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:02:25 AM PDT

Ugghhh… (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:wintersnowman, AlyoshaKaramazov, bonesy You mean to tell me he had the audacity to say this,

And we can clarify this thing very quickly if people who have got solid evidence would come forward and speak out. And I would hope they would.

Knowing he was the one with solid evidence that could come forward and speak out, and end this thing right then and there. Yet he allowed an investigation to continue for nearly three years playing along like he was in the dark along with everybody else. He portrayed the matter as if it were serious. NOW, he is going to claim the Britney Spears defense, OOOps I did it again, no big deal, didn’t I tell you? I declassified that information and gave authorization for it to be used against my political adversary in a smear campaign, Ha Ha Ha.

The proper words fail to fully convey how, Hmmm… disappointed, sad, outrageous, immoral, deceitful, indecent, and cowardly these actions are. I guess it can all be summed up in one word SCHMUCK

“In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.”-George Orwell

by Babsnc on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:02:48 AM PDT

I would choose (0 / 0) M*******.

But “schmuck” will do.

Meet the New Pharisees, same as the Old Pharisees.

by AlyoshaKaramazov on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:22:46 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Have you ever read Oedipus? (0 / 0) When the Oracle demanded he investigate the death of the previous King of Thebes, who turned out to be his father, he, too, was calling for a full and complete investigation and saying that he would take care of anybody who was found to have done it or to have withheld the truth.

Iraq War news and comment.

by Eternal Hope on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:06:40 AM PDT

This story is about the character of Bush (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:Malacandra, paradox, Yellow Canary This story is about the character of Bush, not the legalities of declassification. Bush assured the public that he knew nothing about any leak, he thought it was wrong and would fire whomever was responsible. All the while he was lying straight faced to the American people.

Let’s keep it simple, folks. People get this in their gut.

He lied to us to our faces (remember the outrage about Clinton’s ” I did not have sexual etc..”) The lie was about a dirty political trick used to get himself elected. The lie was about whether he had knowingly lied us into a war. This means we should concentrate on the character of the administration and republicans, not the legalities. So focus on voting out the republicans instead of taking legal action against them. This is the field where we win, not only in the voting booth and the courts, but in people’s hearts and guts.

by Geronimo on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:07:37 AM PDT

Maybe I’m wrong (0 / 0) but the way I see what Bush, declassified was only the parts, that were wrong, but, would build his case to go into this war, which,in the end result led to “endangering lives and National Security.”Bush led us into a war on false information that this administration “hand picked” out of a classified document. There is no getting around this. He committed crimes against the American People, including our military.

by bonesy on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:18:19 AM PDT

This is the one… (4+ / 0-) Recommended by:Categorically Imperative, AlyoshaKaramazov, Geronimo, bonesy No, not the one that “gets him.” Finally I know, because of this one, he will never be “gotten.”

No, this is the one that goes beyond angering, saddening, confusing, disgusting or enraging me.

This one breaks my heart.

Not because I suddenly realize that W and the Republicans are capable of this behavior.

My heart is broken because I know, before tuning in to the T.V. talking heads, or the Rush Limbaugh’s, that a large segment of the population — albeit smaller than it would have been a year ago, a month ago, a week ago or a day ago — will somehow swallow the rationale (oops some rage sneeks in here and I want to scream, “What F**KING RATIONALE?!!!”) and continue to support the man and the party.

My heart is broken because this is another long leap down the slippery slope from Democracy to something … else. Something dressed up like Democracy, something that certainly pays lip service to Democracy but is not Democracy.

My heart is broken, not because of politics. My heart is broken because

my country is broken.

Boulanger

by Boulanger on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:20:44 AM PDT

So true, (0 / 0) I hear you.

by bonesy on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:24:34 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Pound on the politics angle (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:Geronimo Doesn’t the term ‘leaking’ apply to more than just classified information? Even if we hand him the ‘privilege’ of declassifying it doesn’t absolve him of leaking select information for pure political gain. It seems the wingers will win the narrative battle if we focus on the legalities here. The public can easily understand the political power play that was at hand here.

I say drive home the point that he was selective in what he chose to leak solely for political gain.

Yeah, I’m trying out this blogging thing, too.

by MLDB on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:25:37 AM PDT

Pound on the LYING angle! (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:paradox, AlyoshaKaramazov He lied about the reasons for war. Then he went after someone who spoke out against those lies by distorting and leaking classified info. Then he lied to our faces whether he even knew anything about that.

People get this. He lied, then attacked those who accused him of lying, then lied some more. Nothing outrages people more than being lied to straight faced - even when it’a about little things, but this is a BIG thing.

Liar, Liar, Liar! Nobody believes you anymore.

by Geronimo on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:32:35 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

It depends on what the definition of ‘Classified’ (0+ / 0-) … is.

Of course in the chimp’s simple mind anything that comes out of his mouth is not classified.

by patmacsf on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:31:31 AM PDT

Let the admin and repubs split those hairs (0 / 0) Fussing about declassification procedures will make the public’s eyes roll in the same way that the ‘definition of is is’ did. This should never come from OUR mouths. We see it clearly. The president lied to get us into war. Then he lied more to protect those lies.

by Geronimo on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:35:59 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

greetings from Elsmere (0 / 0) jan ting (r-de) is on cnn right now. i think hes the one running against carper

oops…back on topic…i am dumbstruck at the cavalier manner in which this admin declassifies info that endangers lives and intelligence collection in iran, yet those all-important pdbs and such MUST remain classified in order to protect national security.

by 73rd virgin on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:33:35 AM PDT

After I heard this story I was outraged. (0 / 0) Made me want to flip out like Clark W. Griswold in National Lampoon’s Christmas Vacation.

Clark: Hey! If any of you are looking for any last minute gift ideas for me, I have one. I’d like Frank Shirley, my boss, right here tonight. I want him brought from his happy holiday slumber over there on Melody Lane with all the other rich people and I want him brought right here, with a big ribbon on his head, and I want to look him straight in the eye and I want to tell him what a cheap, lying, no-good, rotten, four-flushing, low-life, snake-licking, dirt-eating, inbred, overstuffed, ignorant, blood-sucking, dog-kissing, brainless, dickless, hopeless, heartless, fat-a*, bug-eyed, stiff-legged, spotty-lipped, worm-headed sack of monkey s** he is! Hallelujah!

Oh and substitute Frank Shirley with King George.

“I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.” — Galileo Galilei

by Dittoz on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:43:28 AM PDT

Some more quotes for consideration: (0 / 0) “So one of the things I’ll do is remind the members of Congress that this is not a political issue, that protecting America is an American issue. It’s a duty we all have and that I vow not to play politics with doing what’s right.” — President Bush, June 12, 2002

http://www.whitehouse.gov/…

First, we must remember the high standards that come with high office. This begins with careful adherence to the rules. I expect every member of this administration to stay well within the boundaries that define legal and ethical conduct. This means avoiding even the appearance of problems. This means checking and, if need be, double- checking that the rules have been obeyed. This means never compromising those rules. No one in the White House should be afraid to confront the people they work for, for ethical concerns, and no one should hesitate to confront me as well. We are all accountable to one another. And above all, we are all accountable to the law and to the American people. My White House counsel, Al Gonzales, is my pointman on these issues. If you have even a hint of ethical doubt, I urge you to talk to Al.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/…

I think the thing that discouraged me about the vice president was uttering those famous words, “No controlling legal authority.” I felt like there needed to be a better sense of responsibility of what was going on in the White House. I believe that — I believe they’ve moved that sign, “The buck stops here” from the Oval Office desk to “The buck stops here” on the Lincoln bedroom. It’s not good for the country and it’s not right. We need to have a new look about how we conduct ourselves in office. There’s a huge trust. I see it all the time when people come up to me and say, I don’t want you to let me down again. And we can do better than the past administration has done. It’s time for a fresh start. It’s time for a new look. It’s time for a fresh start after a season of cynicism. …. I think people need to be held responsible for the actions they take in life. I think that — well, I think that’s part of the need for a cultural change. We need to say we each need to be responsible for what we do. People in the highest office of the land must be responsible for decisions they make in life. And that’s the way I’ve conducted myself as Governor of Texas and that’s the way I’ll conduct myself as President of the United States, should I be fortunate enough to earn your vote.

http://www.debates.org/…

by Catch 22 on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:58:25 AM PDT

Reality (0 / 0) You say,

If Bush is any kind of man, if he is a man of his word, if he is an honest man, he will fire himself today by offering his resignation, as he promised to do. If he does not, then he is scum, a liar, a weasel, more slick than Willie ever was, who has besmearched and tainted the White House with lies, deceit and untruth, all to cover his lilly white a*.

We have long well known that Bush is a liar and the other names you call him.

Much more important, IMHO, are points like these:

Well, actually the Murray Waas’ evidence is sufficient to prove the President lied to the American people. But apparently these upcoming emails will establish a clear case of obstruction of justice,… -HoundDog

and…

But remember the key crime in described in this is diary is Obstruction of Justice for lying to Patrick Fitzggerald about their knowledge.

Just as Libby is trying to throw up a lot of smoke and dust to obscure the fact that he was indicted for perjury, obstruction of justice, and making false statements to a grand jury, not disclosure of classifeid material.

The same is true here.

I would appreciate out all of your help in keeping this point focused and reflected back into the MSM tomorrow.

The administration want to make this about whether or not the President has the right to declassify things. This is a worthhwhile debate and Schumer as challenged on this.

But what we need to refocus attention on is the coverup.

Just like with Nixon. It wasn’t the original crime but the cover-up.

Bush has been caught in an obstruction of justice trap.

Just as with Libby. The orginal crimes are irrelevent. Libby and Rove and Cheney and Bush lied to the Federal Prosecutors about their knowledge.

Nothing else is necessary to prove.

HoundDog

by We hold these truths on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:10:51 AM PDT

Terrific compilation … (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:Delaware Dem Thanks. Even in the current climate I don’t think Bush’s Nixonian “If the president does it, it’s not illegal” defense is going to play.

The other day a commenter at Atrios’ place made a great point about Bush claiming to be protecting the country when he’s actually just trying to cover his own a*:

And Graham gave us just that opening in the censure hearing last week when he said that Watergate was all about Nixon protecting himself, whilst Bush’s lawbreaking was all about protecting the nation. This destroys their last b****** refuge.

I’d love to see Graham confronted now with his own words …

Don’t ask me nothin’ ‘bout nothin’; I just might tell you the truth — Bob Dylan

by ponderer on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:14:02 AM PDT

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By Stupid Selfish Liberal

April 7, 2006 11:36 AM | Link to this

also… (4+ / 0-) Recommended by:L0kI, kitchen table activist, RiaD, blueoasis Barry Richards too. He did the right thing (except for supporting Bush). But if he posted here at DKOS, I’d support his right to say what he had to say. Its the other people in the audience- the booers and the feces throwers— they make a mockery of citizenship.

by goodidealist on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:16:11 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

I hope nobody minds… (17+ / 0-) Recommended by:sen bob, clone12, Carnacki, joynow, MissAnneThrope, L0kI, PeteZerria, suzq, johanus, Caldonia, vansterdam, rlteiken, mattwynn, Pam from Calif, Mehitabel9, FrankFrink, dfisk …if I post a poem I did back in December, which was first posted to Cheers and Jeers (I would just link, but the html used at that time doesn’t work very good now).

Four Freedoms

Franklin proclaimed them to us in 1941 Norman drew them for us in 1943

We have lived our lives in search of them They are our most deeply held convictions

Four are the freedoms and the freedoms are for all humans everywhere They are the goal

Freedom of Speech Free to talk and hear Free to write and read Free to teach and learn Free to create and experience

Freedom to Worship whomever or no one whatever or nothing whenever or never wherever or nowhere however or not at all why ever or for no reason the religion, philosophy. or ethos the faith or belief we choose

Freedom from Fear of oppression and brutality by tyrants or despots by bullies or demagogues of killing and slaughter because of nationality or religion because of race or culture of disease and corruption of bodies or minds of institutions or leaders of rape and torture of people or nature of wallets or souls

Freedom from Want of food and drink of lodging and warmth of work and self-worth of respect and value

These are our values or so I was taught So what the f*** is happening to us now

I am so ashamed We are f*** p**. It is time for them to go Help me take back this land from them

—Robyn Elaine Serven —December 23, 2005

Teacher’s Lounge opens each Saturday, sometime between 10am and 11am EST

by rserven on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:57:34 PM PDT

Great diary, but the article stinks (23+ / 0-) Recommended by:arthur, tunesmith, HighSticking, joynow, rabel, PeteZerria, lirtydies, suzq, averybird, hoof32, Sassy, JohnB47, mattwynn, jfadden, vassmer, Overseas, kitchen table activist, Bushkills, FrankFrink, lumpenprole, blueoasis, Lashe, FakeNews It portrays the incident as though it were some triumph of American democracy, rather than the shocking exception that proves the rule. This administration, from its canned rallies to its thuglike supporters to its secrecy and above-the-law high-handedness, is the worst domestic enemy of American freedom in modern times.

This guy got through a glitch in the Matrix. I honor him for what he did, and it’s cool to see at least one guy willing to support his right to say it - but it’s a sad state when simply getting past the president’s bubble for a minute counts as a newsworthy moment to celebrate.

Packer, you Republican cannibal, I would sintince ya ta hell but the statutes forbid it.

by BrooklynRaider on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:57:41 PM PDT

Somebody (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:zett, Overseas should interview this guy and found out how he broke into Bush’s bubble.

The only thing 9/11 changed is the standard of presidential failure.

by thinkdouble on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 03:25:07 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

The question that should have been asked (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:EricS The follow up question that should have been asked:

Mr. President, have all of the wiretaps and intercepts that were not authorized by the court involved at least one suspected Al Qaida member who was overseas?

(That is how Bush likes to play it. However, I heard that Gonzales hint that it is not really true).

by JPZenger on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:57:58 PM PDT

was this staged? (11+ / 0-) Recommended by:sen bob, xynz, MissAnneThrope, zett, mikenlola, Geronimo, Sophie Blue, vassmer, arbiter, kidneystones, Friend of the court to try and take pressure off of the “only fundies allowed” crowds attend?

Blue is the most popular color

by jalapeno on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:58:26 PM PDT

Ah, you are a sceptic… (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:MissAnneThrope, rlteiken, Sophie Blue I thought of that too. I don’t trust Bushie events at all. I think Harry Taylor is real and what he said is what he believes, because that can be checked.

What I question, is did they (Rove’s PR firm) let one “loose cannon” in the crowd to show they are democratic? It would be easy to do since these are pre-screened crowds he talks to. ??? I don’t know.

Proud Commie or Frustrated Capitalist?

by vassmer on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:09:14 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

The cannon misfired if that’s the case (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:joynow, 73rd virgin Harry came off as a sincere man, not a nut.

by Thistime on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 03:07:16 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Harry had a ticket… (5+ / 0-) Recommended by:EasternOkie, joynow, MrSandman, FrankFrink, Zwoof because he is a member of the sponsoring organization.

He also happens to be a successful businessman, homeowner, taxpayer and otherwise stand up guy…which in this town usually means republican, but in Harry’s case does not.

We are the people we are looking for.

by working for change on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 04:01:37 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Is there information about him somewhere? nt (0 / 0)

by EasternOkie on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 04:59:23 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Check this out… (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:EasternOkie, Pam from Calif Interview with Harry right after the event.

We are the people we are looking for.

by working for change on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 08:08:32 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

wouldnt it be great, tho (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:EasternOkie if he were a republican? it would almost be sweeter. who knows, maybe he is.

by 73rd virgin on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 07:20:41 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

No, he’s not… (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:EasternOkie, begone He’s a member of my MoveOn team. I think he may be registered as an Independant, but definitely not Republican.

We are the people we are looking for.

by working for change on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 07:36:03 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

still woulda been sweet (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:EasternOkie to have one of his own call him out.

glad to have mr. taylor on ‘our’ side, tho. most glad. after reading he is overwhelmed by emails, i chose not to send one. will you still be forwarding in a couple days? if so, expect one from me.

by 73rd virgin on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 07:51:28 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Of course…. (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:EasternOkie we will. Send an email now or wait a few days…whatever works for you.

We are the people we are looking for.

by working for change on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 07:59:56 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

thanks….n/t (0 / 0)

by 73rd virgin on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 08:20:15 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

my thoughts… (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:MissAnneThrope, Geronimo, RiaD I wonder if the repugs planted this guy to show shrub smart and strong (not that he is by any means…)

by volballplr on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:13:10 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

It might’ve taken 3/4ths of the page to get here (5+ / 0-) Recommended by:sen bob, nehark, Geronimo, Sophie Blue, RiaD But this is my seating area. Thank God I’m not alone. It smacks of staged bullcrap…down to the interview with the “I support his right to say it” guy. Big Whoop, someone finally spoke up to Bush — I have trouble believing they allowed it to happen on accident. by MissAnneThrope on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:32:34 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Please push over and (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:MissAnneThrope, nehark make some room for me

come wash the night time clean - John Perry Barlow

by sunsquared on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 03:00:23 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Find Harry… (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:AllisonInSeattle through our MoveOn team’s website….here

And thanks for cross-posting my comments. I saw quite a few questions related to whether Harry was a plant and wanted to set the record straight.

We are the people we are looking for.

by working for change on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 03:58:13 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Sorry, but can you be more specific? (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:AllisonInSeattle Maybe there’s something upthread, but your link didn’t lead me to anything Harry Taylor related.

Not to be obtuse. Just wanting clarity. Thanks if you wouldn’t mind explaining.

by MissAnneThrope on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 06:45:23 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Just go to (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:AllisonInSeattle, begone the ‘contact’ tab. Shoot us an email. We’ll pass it on.

We are the people we are looking for.

by working for change on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 06:52:43 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Thanks (0 / 0) I read the rest of the thread and another one on the matter and understood. Sorry for that.

by MissAnneThrope on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 03:24:06 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

I’m with you. (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:MissAnneThrope Just another chance for BOzo to assert his God-Given right to spy on American citizens. I think they’re really worried about this issue and they’ll try anything. Wolf Blitzer played it as though the days of screening audiences is over. This is the new, improved Bush—compassionately stooping to listen to concerns of the people, but at the same time resolutely standing his ground on “important matters of national security.” Good grief.

If this was a setup…and I believe it was…it sure would be fun to out this guy. If he’s for real..even if he does work for the organizers..I humbly apologize—but honestly.

(¯*._(¯._(-IMPEACH-)_.´¯)_.*´¯)

by nehark on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 04:37:56 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Thanks to those who know Mr. Taylor… (0 / 0) …for putting my fears to rest. Bush and his media may use Mr. Taylor’s appearance to their own ends, but his comments were genuine and so I applaud him. (One can never be too suspicious around these thugs.)

(¯*._(¯._(-IMPEACH-)_.´¯)_.*´¯)

by nehark on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 05:45:06 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

If they did… (0 / 0) it didn’t work.

Brown…the new black.

by Caldonia on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 04:25:37 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Not really. At least not by Bushco. (14+ / 0-) Recommended by:joynow, TracieLynn, MissAnneThrope, PeteZerria, greeseyparrot, amRadioHed, Brooke In Seattle, mattwynn, kitchen table activist, RiaD, FrankFrink, lilyvaldem, blueoasis, working for change In my diary on this, I got this comment:

Harry is…

a member of my MoveOn team here in Charlotte. He had a ticket to the event and wanted to make a comment that would embarrass the president.

Now, I don’t think W is capable of shame, but with all the attention Harry’s comments have received I would have to say Mission Accomplished.

Go Harry!

as well as Harry’s own e-mail to MoveOn afterward:

Can you believe it, Diane! I talked to the terrorist! I’m emotionally and physically spent! Whew! Hard work, indeed. I’ll fill you in when we have a chance to talk. Had 5 news reporters hanging on me afterward, and was interviewed by NPR as well. We were heard!!!!!!!!! Couldn’t possibly achieve something like that without knowing MoveOn, Sierra Club, True Majority, and hundreds of millions of human beings, around the globe, are there for support! It’s a small victory for all of us! Cheers. Harry

And he’s damn right. It’s a victory for all.

by MrSandman on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:42:42 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

That’s reassuring, (6+ / 0-) Recommended by:joynow, MrSandman, Sophie Blue, FrankFrink, working for change, kurt MrSandman. I, too, was suspicious when I heard the entire exchange on our Charlotte NPR affiliate (WFAE). It seemed just too convenient for Chimpy, too smooth, too easy for the Terrorist in Chief to say “no, no, let him finish…”

I don’t know Mr. Taylor, even if just by name, and this part of NC is so disgustingly red that a true blue patriot would stand out somehow, and I figured I would have heard of him. But now I relieve he’s the real deal and my admiration for him is intense.

As a Republican (still…but a recovering one) local elected official, I guess I should have tried to wrangle an invitation. I just couldn’t stomach the thought of sitting through a Rove propaganda event populated by a crowd of unpleasant wingnut ChristoFascist Bush Pioneers, having to listen to Chimpster and watch those bizarre and and disgusting movements he makes with his mouth. However, I regret missing the opportunity to meet Mr. Taylor.

BTW, President Bill Clinton also visited that CPCC campus in 1996. He spoke outdoors on the quad; the event was “invitation only”, but any CPCC student could get invitations and a friend gave me one. It was a great moment, with a crowd that wasn’t carefully screened and that was a sea of diversity.

How stark the contrast between our presidency then and our budding dictatorship now. Sad.

by blue in NC on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 03:17:59 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

We welcome recovering republicans here (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:freedom fried, joynow, johanus Hope you can track down Mr. Taylor and express all of our admiration.

It’s one thing to say you want to criticize the President. It’s a whole ‘nother thing to stand up in a roomful of redstaters with the cameras rolling and actually do it.

Now, if we could one person with this kind of courage at every event…

by MrSandman on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 03:30:11 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Just to be clear… (6+ / 0-) Recommended by:dan in sd, joynow, TracieLynn, MrSandman, AllisonInSeattle, FrankFrink Harry wasn’t any one’s plant. Yes, he’s a member of a MoveOn team, but no one knew what Harry was hoping to do until he did it.

He had a ticket to the event and got lucky when they allowed him to ask his question.

By the way..thanks for cross-posting my comments. I’m dismayed at those who are questioning Harry’s credibility and am trying to set the record straight.

We are the people we are looking for.

by working for change on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 04:15:39 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Sorry I didn’t reference you as well (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:joynow Think you could get with Harry and write a diary on his experience?

I applaud the courage — and, yes, his desire — to find a way to do this if the opportunity arose.

Isn’t it appalling that we are so cynical, so determined to believe everything is contrived, that we can’t see an act of courage when it’s shown to us.

But, then, this diary is about a contrived reality in a Rockwell painting, so go figure.

by MrSandman on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 04:49:41 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

So true (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:MrSandman, Brooke In Seattle …that we have become unflinchingly cynical as a result of this administration’s never-ending spin, lies, propaganda and countless betrayals of the public trust. (sigh)

I would really like to do just as you suggested and create a diary with Harry. At the moment, he is a little overwhelmed by the attention…but we’ll see what we can do!

We are the people we are looking for.

by working for change on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 05:08:44 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Take your time. (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:joynow Feed Harry a little wine, let him take some deep breaths and get his wits about him.

Might be better with the perspective of a little time. Might let Harry answer my questions after all these posts and diaries.

What happens to you when speaking with clarity and passion is so rare that instant celebrity follows? What happens when your motives are questioned; your past associations delved into? What happens when you are so courageous that everyone wants to know who you are?

Is it worth it?

And what happens to you, working for change, when one of your colleagues has his life turned upside down? Is it only 15 minutes of fame or have you got a program for newly made conscientious objectors? You got a safe house for him somewhere or what??

It would be a great diary. I’ll pimp my heart out for you when you do it.

by MrSandman on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 05:31:11 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Our safe house… (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:joynow is a community of more than 100 team members who have been increasingly active and vocal here in Charlotte. There is safety in numbers.

I will pass your questions on to Harry and see if we can get something posted tomorrow.

We are the people we are looking for.

by working for change on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 05:42:34 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Why don’t you give us what you think (0 / 0) the answers are first?

Seems like you have a scenario in your mind, what you think it would be like.

Seems like you’re afraid to do it, and want to know “Is it worth it?”

I can answer for myself, “Hell, yes, I would do it, hell yes it would be worth it.” I don’t need Harry’s answers. And further, I’d leave him alone right now. Except to send a 6-pack of his favorite beer, or bottle of wine, or new handsaw — whatever his passion is, as simple thanks.

Oh hey, thanks for getting me started thinking about this. My DFA group has a program where we buy and donate NEW clothing (underwear, mostly) for foster kids. So they get to feel special, and just flat have clothes.

I’m going to buy a new piece of clothing for a foster child as a thank-you for him. I’m sure he’d approve.

I suggest to us all — a donation to your favorite charity as thanks for Harry.

It’s the “anti-fear-propaganda” solution: positive news: HeroicStories, free

by AllisonInSeattle on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 03:14:13 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Karl Rove Organized the Event (0 / 0) Bush is tanking in the polls, Delay is out, Brand GOP is being repositioned and now after five plus arrogant years of vacations, no question press conferences, planted stories in the press, the man-whore, Williams, infomercial news,the Lincoln Group, President Bush is asked a “hostile” question at an otherwise micromanaged event and the headline right now at the leading pro-war paper in the nation reads: “Bush Alleged to have authorized leak to press” and you ask if Rove is trying to managed the news?

Where on earth could you ever get such an idea?

by kidneystones on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 04:50:01 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

seemed pre packaged (0 / 0) the administration must have been expecting this sort of question and had Mr Bush practice this response. He has never seemed what you would call fast on his feet.

by Friend of the court on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 04:50:09 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

And he wasn’t in this case, (0 / 0) he acted the idiot, he was blindsided.

There is no way they allowed this.

by EasternOkie on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 05:01:10 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Your catch, Clone12 is priceless (7+ / 0-) Recommended by:sen bob, clone12, TracieLynn, L0kI, nancelot, Brooke In Seattle, FrankFrink And if the other 11 of your clones are just as good, we’re in better shape than I thought.

by newmexicobear on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:59:54 PM PDT

Why does stupid Nedra Pickler (10+ / 0-) Recommended by:thinkdouble, joynow, TracieLynn, L0kI, suzq, rlteiken, amRadioHed, jfadden, blueoasis, Lashe call the questioner a “heckler” when she does not specify the screened and scripted audience members to be shills?

This is the AOL News headline.

Bush Spars With Heckler Over Surveillance By NEDRA PICKLER, AP

CHARLOTTE, N.C. (April 6) - President Bush, told by a critic he should be ashamed of his policies, defended the government’s secret eavesdropping program Thursday and said he would not apologize for listening in on the phone and e-mail conversations of Americans talking to people with suspected al-Qaida links.

by skiddlybop on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:01:20 PM PDT

i was wondering what happened to her (0+ / 0-) hadn’t seen her work for awhile.

glad to see she’s still down between the legs.

{/snark}

Why, it can’t happen here! {/snark}

by terrypinder on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:16:01 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Not to defend her (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:tmo, blueoasis Because I know of her past work, but the headline was probably written by an editor, not the reporter writing the story.

I complain to AP all the time about their lousy reporters and the non-facts in their stories, but it’s the editors who put on the headlines. All a reporter does is slug it (title it) something relevant for working purposes. The irresponsible headlines we see are usually from some editor who — either through serving an agenda, lack of time, or just plain carelessness — seems to not read the whole story before writing the head that will eventually appear on every paper around the world that picks up and runs the story.

Sadly, it seems to happen a lot these days in the major media.

by Brooke In Seattle on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 06:05:53 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Heckler? (0 / 0) The beauty of it was how calm and even polite Mr. Taylor sounded when he spoke.

Heckler: To try to embarrass and annoy (someone speaking or performing in public) by questions, gibes, or objections; badger.

It’s in the eye of the beholder and the heckled I guess. It was a question meant to embarrass, but so well done.

by joynow on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 07:32:36 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Harry Taylor makes NC proud! (4+ / 0-) Recommended by:L0kI, suzq, Caldonia, omfreebogart Hey all you other proud progressive southern warriors! Join your tribe in Asheville NC on May 6&7 for a two-day grassroots activist training hosted by DFA. www.dfalink.com/nctraining

It’s going to be hands on skill building to hone our activist skills, the better to taking our country (party) back with!

On Sunday we will end with a southern regional networking session and a panel with Jerry Meek, “how to turn red states blue”.

Hope to see you there! And Harry Taylor, we are all so proud of you!

by roonie on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:04:16 PM PDT

Do you know Harry Taylor? n/t (0 / 0)

(¯*._(¯._(-IMPEACH-)_.´¯)_.*´¯)

by nehark on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 04:41:01 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

just from today n/t (0 / 0)

by roonie on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 06:16:19 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

‘why should it take courage’ (12+ / 0-) Recommended by:BenGoshi, Gram E, Thistime, shock, rabel, L0kI, suzq, Brooke In Seattle, kitchen table activist, RiaD, Lashe, 73rd virgin Helen Thomas commented this AM on the Franken show… referring to journalists… “for a reporter to ask a public servant a question”?

She meant that it should be regarded as just the reporter’s job.. and shame on today’s reporters for NOT doing it.

But it’s also a sign of the times that we must applaud the courage of an average citizen to question the Leader.. because look what happens to him when he does.

We’ll know we live in better times when Rockwell’s painting is really enacted.. and citizens who question their leaders are taken as a matter of course.

It DID take courage for Mr Taylor to do what he did.. but it shouldn’t have to.

by pitbullEmily on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:05:07 PM PDT

One Point of Disagreement I Have (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:jfadden, blueoasis With Mr. Taylor’s comments is when he said Bush is “a nice guy, steered by bad people.”

Being able to make nice in a crowd does not in my opinion qualify someone as “nice”— it merely shows that person is able to compartmentalize away the facts— the fact that he deceived his country, the fact that he led us into a false war, the fact that, in so doing, he has brought about the deaths of 100,000+ innocent people.

Just cracking some pitiful jokes in a crowd doesn’t erase these facts; they are as “un-nice” as they come.

Other than that, though, kudos Mr. Taylor. Thank you for taking George to the woodshed.

“A popular government, without popular information, or the means of acquiring it, is but a prologue to a farce or tragedy”— James Madison

by Bad Cog on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:08:18 PM PDT

I don’t like GW either (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:L0kI but not all are as black & white as we are. And it means something when moderates, like Mr. Taylor perhaps, take such positions.

by baccaruda on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:21:46 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Mr. Taylor… (7+ / 0-) Recommended by:Kimberly Stone, TracieLynn, Boorad, baxxor, Needa Bigger Pretzel, vassmer, FakeNews Speaks for me.

“[A] ‘Sharecropper’s Society’ [is] precisely where our trade policies, supported by Republicans and Democrats alike, are taking us.” - Warren Buffet

by RichM on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:08:44 PM PDT

Another Northeast elitist. Nothing to see here. (0 / 0)

by Spud1 on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:11:52 PM PDT

NC Baby (0 / 0) Southern Mountain Men and proud of it!

“If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide.” Abe Lincoln

by faithfull on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 03:25:15 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Lawrence Weschler would be proud. Nice photo (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:boadicea, johanus, lilyvaldem If you haven’t read Lawrence Weschler’s latest book, Everything that Rises, you really should. What you have done witht he photos here is exactly is the phenomenon he describes, where one image informs another— consciously or not. His most famous example is the comparison of Ché Guevara’s death image with Rembrand’s “The Anatomy Lesson.” Eerie.

Wikipedia on Lawrence Weschler, long time contributing writer to the New Yorker.

Link to the hour-long discussion with Weschler on Radio Open Source (which I love, as it is one of the few radio shows where you get long form discussions on art, and Lydon is just a pleasure to listen to).

by eugene X on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:16:01 PM PDT

I thought the same thing (0 / 0) having heard Chris Lydon’s interview. I was kind of skeptical of the whole premise, but the photo pair above is hard to argue with.

by DavidSewell on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 05:50:05 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

One for the Weschler Fans (0 / 0) http://www.designobserver.com/…

A few weeks ago, Design Oberver (a prominent, professional, very smart design blog) posted a previously unpublished essay by Weschler that sounds like it must have been edited out of that book. Here he compares a particular format of landscape painting and photography to a particular convention of representing the nude — that makes it sound much less interesting than it is, it’s more of a wandering through associations than a comparison, and ends with some extraordinary shots of a peculiar cloud formation over Los Angeles, photographed simultaneously by people all over the city.

In the ensuing comments, some of the blog’s visitors found his language too academic; some of Weschler’s big fans found it to be a lesser work from a world-class thinker; the discussion rapidly descended into a contest of wills over exactly what this blog is doing, posting a “think piece” that isn’t REALLY about DESIGN! The followup essay by one of the blog’s founders is priceless.

Do not ask for a word’s meaning; look at its use.

by cmlorenz on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:22:45 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

How do we know he’s not a plant. (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:MissAnneThrope, nehark, kidneystones I mean, a “Norman Rockwell” moment?

Most people are idiots… But don’t tell them. It’ll spoil all the fun for those of us who aren’t.

by d3n4l1 on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:16:24 PM PDT

I have things growing in my head (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:MissAnneThrope Mission Impossible?

The White House vets every single image of the President. (not the employees of Homeland Security or FEMA, unfortunately).

I’m sure that this “mirror” image of a Rockwell moment is pure coincidence.

You’re not suggesting that Rove would try to stage a political event simply to counter negative impressions of the President and the GOP, are you?

What about meaningful and informative back and forths about policy?

You know, the stuff that always happens at GOP events.

by kidneystones on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 04:56:58 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

I read a piece recently (0 / 0) about how photogs unconsciously imitate the most famous pics.

Happens over and over… they move just a bit, then snap the pic — it’s happening on an unconscious level, but it happens consistently, world over.

Ain’t no biggie, calm down, it’s a documented phenomenon.

It’s the “anti-fear-propaganda” solution: positive news: HeroicStories, free

by AllisonInSeattle on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 03:16:42 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

If he was he failed in his mission (0 / 0) so it doesn’t matter.

by EasternOkie on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 05:02:22 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

He’ll be wearing Gitmo orange next week (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:Overseas, nogamez but it was a ballsy thing to do, and I applaud him for it.

Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right

by darthstar on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:16:42 PM PDT

It’s the new Norman Rockwell (0 / 0) The old one hated freedom.

by Tar Heel Blue on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:17:37 PM PDT

Care to back that statement up? (0 / 0) When I think of paintings like the one reproduced here, I would beg to differ.

Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle. -Philo of Alexandria

by vansterdam on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 03:44:13 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Time to turn up the gain (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:vansterdam on your snark detector…

-7.4, -5.9 | “Ignorance and bigotry, like other insanities, are incapable of self-government.” -Thomas Jefferson

by Subterranean on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 07:34:14 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Sorry (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:vansterdam Time for me to check the batteries on my double post filter.

-7.4, -5.9 | “Ignorance and bigotry, like other insanities, are incapable of self-government.” -Thomas Jefferson

by Subterranean on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 07:37:02 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Time to check the batteries (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:vansterdam on your snark detector…

-7.4, -5.9 | “Ignorance and bigotry, like other insanities, are incapable of self-government.” -Thomas Jefferson

by Subterranean on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 07:35:33 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

There are days… (0 / 0) (‘specially at work) when I really shouldn’t be allowed on the internets. Thanks for the perspectivity. Is our kossacks learning? Hopefully.

Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle. -Philo of Alexandria

by vansterdam on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:10:13 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

So where’s our stamp? (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:sen bob, faithfull The post office issued a stamp of the firemen raising the flag at ground zero, so where is our stamp for Harry Taylor’s contemporary Freedom of Speech stand?

by nogamez on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:25:14 PM PDT

i think that was from a town meeting in (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:faithfull arlington, vermont…

proud to call VT my homestate.

Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. - Samuel Johnson

by sedrunsic on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:32:13 PM PDT

times have changed (6+ / 0-) Recommended by:Canadian Reader, joynow, TracieLynn, Caldonia, faithfull, lilyvaldem You notice there are considerable differences in the Norman Rockwell painting and this picture. No, the guy looks really damn close, actually. It’s the other people.

In the NR, ordinary citizens are happy, joyful, even enthusiastic that one of their own is exercizing his freedom of speech. The faces are inquisitive, inviting, there’s a sense of community and comradery conveyed.

In 2006 America, they are booing, gossiping, looking on with a mix of puzzled amazement and skepticism.

In Bush’s America, Freedom of speech is the abnormal, “odd” thing that only outcasts engage in.

(-9.13, -8.10) Political violence is a perfectly legitimate answer to the persecution handed down by dignitaries of the state. - Riven Turnbull

by Florida Democrat on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:45:25 PM PDT

Harry Taylor (0 / 0) I know you’re out there! Thank you for being my patriot-of-the-day. Carry on Sir. I want your address so that I can send you a personal thank you. What a great day for all of us! Hope your kids were watching. They are so PROUD.

by OWTH on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:55:05 PM PDT

You can reach Harry (0 / 0) via our MoveOn team website here

We are the people we are looking for.

by working for change on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 03:50:35 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

You’ve directed us to this site (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:joynow twice now but I don’t find a mention of Harry Taylor. Directions please?

by QueenMizz on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 05:43:02 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Just use the (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:joynow “contact us” function. We’re passing along emails.

We are the people we are looking for.

by working for change on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 05:47:32 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

As opposed to this crap: (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:joynow, lilyvaldem Same event, much different question:

Q Right. And I wanted to say to you, Mr. President, that on the war on terror, Social Security, the tax cuts, Dubai Ports, immigration, you have shown immense political courage. And I really think that you will be vindicated on all of those positions, as Ronald Reagan was, for example. And also I wanted to know what else would it take for me to get my picture taken with you? (Laughter and applause.)

THE PRESIDENT: My attitude is, about this job, is just do my job…blah blah blah [my words…]

IMPEACH! But First: Censure!

by MichaelPH on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:55:09 PM PDT

Does anyone think Harry will be pictured in (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:joynow history books in 100 years?

He was so well spoken it was as if his comments were for the future, to record that there were objections.

This guy risked it all for his country. God knows how he’ll suffer as a result.

by Thistime on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:56:34 PM PDT

I sent a link to this diary… (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:joynow, kitchen table activist …to a friend who works at the Norman Rockwell Museum in Stockbridge MA. I’ll let post again if I get a reaction.

by jjhalpin on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 03:01:15 PM PDT

Should send to Edvard Munch Museum, too. (6+ / 0-) Recommended by:Subterranean, joynow, MissAnneThrope, dufffbeer, greeseyparrot, 73rd virgin The woman to his right (heh) looks like “Scream”.

BenGoshi

We’re working on many levels here. Ken Kesey

by BenGoshi on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 03:16:07 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Should send to Edvard Munch Museum, too. (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:Subterranean The woman to his right (heh) looks like “Scream”.

BenGoshi

We’re working on many levels here. Ken Kesey

by BenGoshi on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 03:17:15 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Sir, we salute you … (17+ / 0-) Recommended by:Shockwave, clone12, joynow, PeteZerria, kidshaleen, jhwygirl, menodoc, Caldonia, faithfull, Foobar, Pam from Calif, EdlinUser, Overseas, IkeArumba, Reality Bites Back, FrankFrink, Zwoof

Accident insurance? Sure, Mrs. Dietrichson.

by WalterNeff on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 03:12:17 PM PDT

It could equally be titled ‘FREEDOM FROM FEAR’ (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:joynow, Caldonia, AllisonInSeattle n/t

I think, therefore I am NOT A REPUBLICAN!!!

by Reality Bites Back on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 04:31:15 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

North Carolina (0+ / 0-) North Carolina where its at! Beware blue states, weve almost found you! Weve got some mean m******* who are gonna make it happen here!

“If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide.” Abe Lincoln

by faithfull on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 03:23:05 PM PDT

This was not ‘staged’ per se, it was permitted (7+ / 0-) Recommended by:TracieLynn, biscobosco, nehark, FrankFrink, blklikeme, NBBooks, kidneystones Since the WH strictly controls access to these events, they must have known who Harry was and they WANTED him to ask his question.

Why? Not so that the Bush could sound Presidential, but so that their handpicked audience could be shown booing the dissenter.

When this event is reported in FauxNews, they will use the overwhelming boos to “demonstrate” how “out of touch” Bush’s critics are. It is highly likely that the other networks will do what they usually do: follow Faux’s lead.

This was a brilliant political jiu-jitsu move for propaganda: I smell an evil genius: Rove.

Cheers, XYNZ

by xynz on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 03:25:18 PM PDT

Harry Taylor is… (9+ / 0-) Recommended by:joynow, TracieLynn, biscobosco, PeteZerria, Caldonia, walkshills, AllisonInSeattle, FrankFrink, kurt a member of my MoveOn team here in Charlotte. He had a ticket to the event because he is a member of the sponsoring organization. No one knew about his question/comment before hand to “allow” him to make it. He was hoping to be able to make a comment and got lucky when they picked him.

We are the people we are looking for.

by working for change on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 03:48:41 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

And good for him! (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:joynow A true patriot…standing up in front of mostly Bush supporters and speaking TRUTH is being an AMERICAN. Way to go Mr. Taylor.

As long as people believe in absurbities they will continue to commit atrocities.Voltaire

by Esjaydee on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 04:10:45 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

That’s good news. (0 / 0) Who, may I ask, is the sponsoring organization?

(¯*._(¯._(-IMPEACH-)_.´¯)_.*´¯)

by nehark on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 04:46:00 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

World Affairs Council of Charlotte (4+ / 0-) Recommended by:Thistime, joynow, Caldonia, AllisonInSeattle co-sponsored with Central Piedmont Community College. WACC is a non-profit affiliated with UNC Charlotte. Harry is a member, hence the ticket to attend.

We are the people we are looking for.

by working for change on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 05:14:42 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Thanks. n/t (0 / 0)

(¯*._(¯._(-IMPEACH-)_.´¯)_.*´¯)

by nehark on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 05:38:48 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

i second that (0 / 0) and by the way, what ever happened to the guy in louisiana, post-katrina, who told vp cheney to f***-off? that also seemed like a setup.

by blklikeme on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 04:10:05 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Follow-up in Charlotte, NC (from yours truly) (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:joynow, Caldonia The consensus is that Bush showed up in our city to prop up his failing ratings in a major military state.

But jokes were made all around that you have to be prequalified to attend a Bush function.

People just don’t like him comin’ ‘round no more these here parts.

We’re all Helens now. :)

by cskendrick on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 04:46:36 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Yodalized colloquial? n/t (0 / 0)

by walkshills on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 11:13:54 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

The Key that Unlocks this Mystery (0 / 0) is GOP turnout in 2006.

And the staged “Rockwell Moment” will get plenty of positive GOP press.

I expect the LGF and Red State comments board will light up as the deep thinkers “high five” each other at this crafted display of “free speech”.

by kidneystones on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 05:04:14 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

I was suprised (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:PeteZerria, Little Red Hen that the jack boots did not grab the man and drag him off to Gitmo. The smugness of Bush’s response is what really frosted my flakes. He seemed to act like a spoiled little brat. I felt his basic response was Nah-Nah-Nah-Na.

I know this is preaching to the choir, but we are close, seriously close to letting our great democracy slip down the slope to Fascism. I think we are one election away. If we don’t show up and turn this government around then I am afraid we are in for a long scarry ride.

It now turns out the the Attorney General has testified before the Senate that it is probably ok for Bush to order phone taps on regular US citizens. They keep drawing line in the sand and our elected officials don’t cross, they then walk forward removing and admitting to illegal activities and create a new line.

When will we all wake up!

All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. Thomas Jefferson

by kidshaleen on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 03:45:03 PM PDT

pep rally? (0 / 0) Why does this failed, cheerleader-in-chief insist on holding these pep rallies? What an a*.

by oobidoo on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 04:14:17 PM PDT

I’m simply in awe (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:AllisonInSeattle and amazed that he even got to speak. Sure he had a ticket, but others with tickets to Bush Circuses have been kept out. Must have been really hard to plya the lily-white nice Republican guy until he got to ask his question. Speaking of which, I thought they vetted questions beforehand so something like this would never happen? Now, I’m doubly in awe!

All Truth is non-partisan

by MA Liberal on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 04:26:09 PM PDT

& the fact that (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:joynow, kurt there is still the unmitigated gall to call this a ‘Town Hall’ meeting when I myself, a student at the college where Bush spoke am more a townsfolk that 99% of the people that attended.

I begged & pleaded with every administration memeber I could to get a ticket but their hands were tied. Personally, I only know of less than a dozen students that were invited, out of a campus of thousands, to an audience of hundreds.

The protest was nice though, very enjoyable, met lots of interesting people.

-2.75, -7.70

by thesatanicmechanic on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 04:30:20 PM PDT

I just finished watching this on wolfie. (4+ / 0-) Recommended by:clone12, joynow, menodoc, AllisonInSeattle Without fail that f*** Bush made it into a joke. “Hey, look at me. I’m so adorable. Wanna have a beer with me?”, right in the middle of what the guy was saying. How disrespectful of the man he was, while at the same time, pretending he was interested in what he said. As for the crowd, f*** ‘em all, damn brainless morons. Sorry for the incomprehensible message, but I have about reached the end in being able to tolerate the zombie Bush followers, and their leader.

by hopscotch1997 on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 04:30:30 PM PDT

Silly, hopscotch, they are NOT zombies (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:OMwordTHRUdaFOG They are Cult Members. Can’t you tell the difference?? Cult members can sometimes look normal, unless they are in front of their cult leader. THEN, they look like a zombie!

The Democratic party - the party of sanity, reason and kindness.

by adigal on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 04:48:46 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

We should be able to deprogram them , then. (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:OMwordTHRUdaFOG We have been trying and trying, but nothing works.

by hopscotch1997 on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 04:51:07 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

You have to take them away from Dear Leader (0 / 0) by impeaching him or waiting until 2008 - and then maybe, just maybe, they will see clearly again.

The Democratic party - the party of sanity, reason and kindness.

by adigal on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 04:56:27 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Crooks and Liars has it (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:AllisonInSeattle http://www.crooksandliars.com/…

“A child miseducated is a child lost” John F. Kennedy

by Pam from Calif on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 04:33:29 PM PDT

Stage Managed Dissent: 2006 (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:nehark, Sophie Blue GOP pollsters are terrified the base finds Bush/Delay every bit as arrogant, corrupt and unwilling to listen as the good folks at Kos.

This little nugget will end up in GOP talking points and in posts from Red State to LGF to Fox.

Free speech is not suppressed, the news is not managed, Bush faces contrary opinion and personal attacks with good humor and equanimity.

The real headline can be found at the WP.

“Bush Alleged to have authorized leaks…”

Which story will the GOP base be talking about?

by kidneystones on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 04:37:58 PM PDT

Ordinary Hero (0 / 0) Harry Taylor illustrated how speaking truth to power is done. Kudos to Harry! The thing I loved most about the video is how uncomfortable Bush’s disciples seemed while Mr. Taylor was talking. May they choke on their Kool-Aid.

by LieDetector on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 04:42:21 PM PDT

Interesting coincidence (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:joynow, Caldonia, collapse That right now, CNN has an article about a Rockwell painting being found.

One nation, under surveillance, no liberty, nor justice for us

by SisTwo on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 04:53:55 PM PDT

Video Link via Crooks and Liars (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:joynow, kidneystones A Norman Rockwell moment

by ZappoDave on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 05:00:31 PM PDT

Someone in the Secret Service (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:menodoc, Sophie Blue is getting fired as we speak.

Ah, North Carolina ain’t even safe for the Prez no more. A couple beeped at me in traffic today, and when I rolled down my window the driver gave me a big thumbs-up and hollered “I’m proud to be a left-wing bleeding-heart liberal!”

(They were probably kossacks— but still.)

-9.0, -8.3. The less a man knows about how sausages and laws are made, the easier it is to steal his vote and give him botulism.

by SensibleShoes on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 05:04:19 PM PDT

And your bumper sticker says what? (0 / 0)

It’s the “anti-fear-propaganda” solution: positive news: HeroicStories, free

by AllisonInSeattle on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 03:19:32 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

The question Mr. Taylor should have asked (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:joynow after his comment: Will you pray on what I’ve said to you today?

by collapse on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 05:13:25 PM PDT

Great diary! I posted a followup (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:clone12, joynow With pictures paralleling the other three Rockwell paintings: http://www.dailykos.com/…

by hartboy on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 05:13:51 PM PDT

Harry Taylor! (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:joynow Oh HELL YES! “In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” - George Orwell

by Five of Diamonds on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 05:22:50 PM PDT

Great find (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:sen bob I just returned from Miami Beach, where we visited the propaganda exhibit at the Wolfensohn Museulm. This is one of the poster’s.

As to the substance, thank God we still have free speech. For how long?

Knut

by Knut Wicksell on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 05:47:02 PM PDT

Harry the Whining (Homo!) Liberal (1+ / 3-) Recommended by:megisi Trollrated by:Caldonia, AllisonInSeattle, maryru Pencil-neck geek Delicate piano playing (child-molesting) hands Purple sweater (clear proof of homosexual deviation) No Jacket (clear evidence of contempt for tie-wearing President, hard at work, sweating, working the crowd) No policy content (reedy whining about “hippie issues”)

Bush was “confronted” by a composite whose natural answers and demeanor checks all the negatives in GOP focus groups.

The Christian base will see Harry as: a disenchanted, affluent homo whose support for Bush and the nation is wavering during time of war because Harry is simply too delicate, too much of a wimp to stick with a difficult job. I mean, look at those hands.

I’ve no idea who Harry is. He seems sincere and I’d be very surprised if he were complicit. Indeed, the efficacy of the “Rockwell Moment” hinges on Harry’s sincerity, the emotion that creeps into his complaints. He sounds like he wants to cry.

Harry’s real identity has been largely lost and subordinated by the needs of the “Rockwell Moment” narrative. He could be the father of ten sons and the most “reassuringly” hetrosexual in the world. To the Bush base, Harry’s appearence, his voice and demeanor are “proof” of his deviations and his lack of backbone. He fights back by sending email.

This wasn’t a Marine in uniform, with medals and prosthesis, fresh back from Iraq with a microphone in her hand and child at her side.

Uh-uh. That’s exactly the last kind of disenchanted GOP supporter Rove would put before the disenchanted Bush base. The needs of the moment require a very different kind of GOP critic.

The GOP base will take one look at Harry and say: “Look at the homo in the f* purple sweater criticizing the President ( shirt, rolled-up sleeves, tie). Got rich off the tax cuts and now he wants to take his money and run off to some homo beach resort to hang out with Hillary. Guess I’ll just have to get down to the polling station one more time and pull the lever. Cause if I don’t, the Dems (and fair-weather Bush supporters like Harry the treasonous homo) will just quit and run away abandoning the President, America’s future and children before the dirty Iraq work is finished. The work is just too difficult and dangerous for their dainty Hillary loving fingers.”

The “Rockwell Moment” allows the Bush base to recast themselves as brave heroes sticking with the President and the GOP through tough times.

Brilliant.

by kidneystones on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 05:50:30 PM PDT

This is offensive, Kidneystones (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:AllisonInSeattle Really offensive. I wasn’t going to troll rate it because you’re new here, but reading it again changed my mind.

If you’re trying to make fun of the Republican base, you can do it in a much less abraisive fashion.

Throwing these words around numerous times in a long post is unecessary and outside of community standards.

And your detailed description of what you found to be “gay” in a photo of what looked to me like a pretty average guy makes me cringe.

If your intent was irony, you missed it. I’ll assume that was your intent, for now.

by maryru on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 09:53:58 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Thanks for the feedback (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:Two Types of Fruit Fair enough. My use of quotation marks does identify parroted speech, but in retrospect I could have used asterisks to “blur” the specific words.

If I were writing about how regular folks see Harry, I’d be describing the regular guy we see.

But that’s not what I’m doing.

I’m attempting to deconstruct a piece of political theatre; theater aimed at motivating a particular audience, not mainstream America, but the Red State Bush base.

Rove used Harry. Rove used Harry to anger into action an increasingly doubtful and listless group of GOP voters who may stay home on voting day. Rove used Harry (casual look and all, I’m afraid) to draw a big yellow line through GOP ranks:

“Are you with the President or the disaffected rich guy in the pink shirt?”

“Yes or No.” Why do you think Bush shushed the crowd? Why do you think Bush wanted everyone in the audience to quiet down, so all could hear Harry clearly, including the ever present media folks manning the sound equipment?

Kossacks cheered. I cheered Harry. Folks across America and the world cheered Harry.

And that open unfettered expresion of joy, of unanimity and celebration, is exactly the switch Rove will use to goad the base to the polls.

What you or I think of Harry isn’t going to change how the Bush base sees Harry, no matter how we choose to repack their message.

And I’m not sure we should.

by kidneystones on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:06:19 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Four Freedoms stamp (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:AllisonInSeattle, Pam from Calif, IkeArumba In 1943 the U.S. Post Office issued a stamp honoring the Four Freedoms.

by psyched on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 05:58:21 PM PDT

picture comparison (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:sen bob You are quite accurate in the similarities between the Norman Rockwell picture and the man standing up to Bush today to finally have someone tell the President to his face how much of a disgrace he is and how we all should be ashamed of calling this tyrant our President and leader.

Cause for Raza livin in La La, is like Gaza on the dawn of Intifada. And the riot be the rhyme of the unheard.-R.A.T.M.

by kdizzle on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 06:06:53 PM PDT

Then & Now (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:bwren, Caldonia Rockwell’s subject is clearly saying something that surprises the crowd surrounding him in the picture, that they seem to dislike or be discomfited by.

But no one is booing him.

How can you boo an American for standing up and saying that he’s never been more frightened or ashamed? Aren’t you frightening and shaming him?

“When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.” - HST

by DocGonzo on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 06:09:41 PM PDT

It was awesome. (0 / 0) I was so glad to see that man take Bush on.

by Balzac on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 06:12:56 PM PDT

Mr. Taylor was a ROCK (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:joynow How nervous he must have been, yet he spoke slowly and eloquently and really slapped Bushie around.

Interesting to watch the guests on the stage as they try to figure out HOW IN HELL that guy got it and got to speak.

Great video, thanks for posting this.

-6.63, -6.05 “I ain’t no stinkin’ monument to justice.”

by menodoc on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 06:14:20 PM PDT

What is sad (7+ / 0-) Recommended by:Subterranean, espresso, sunzoo, jhwygirl, collapse, jets ya is that free speech is now news.

“As long as space abides, so too shall I abide, relieving the suffering of sentient beings.” Santideva

by Percheronwoman on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 06:22:28 PM PDT

I actually watched some of the… (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:sen bob …Bush speech. For some reason, when Bush talks terrorism, FOX, CNN, MSNBC feel it their patriotic duty to tune in America. I don’t remember Clinton ever getting this coverage from cable news! Ah, that’s right, evertything changed after 9/11. What exactly changed: porous borders for migrants and terrorists still exist, no real or reliable scanning at our ports, more Americans dying, albeit in Afghanistan and Iraq. Yes, the only thing that changed is the republicans ability to scare the cable new networks in treating this disgraced president as the oracle. Give him that, his message never changes: “…my most important job as presient is to protect the American people…” yada, yada, 9/11, blah, blah, blah, Iraq, yada yada, terrorists, and on and on and on…. He actually stood there today and admitted that all the intelligence that he used to lead us to invade a country, was not true. Why? It was never critiqued by skeptics(like Mr. Wilson). It was made to fit the moment:fear of the American public, and the ability to do anything they desired to make it look like they were protecting this country, and getting nearly carte blanche from a cowering congress to do whatever they cloode to do.

And yet, I have to go to the BBC to hear news about Sudan, and the onging genocide going on there. Where are the cable networks on this story? Barely covering it; there are just poor black folks dying there. And yet, that country and gov’t harbored Usama and company in the 90’s. Shame Bush and company, shame!

by jets ya on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 06:24:44 PM PDT

The one thing that struck me during this segment (4+ / 0-) Recommended by:rgilly, Subterranean, joynow, evilpenguin was how calm and collected this man was. He was self-assured and confident (even though he was extremely nervous) and his body language reflected that.

Look at how Bush reacted. At first he looked as though he was ready to pounce on the guy — walking back and forth like a trapped hyena. Even when he reacted with “humour” he looked uncomfortable and contorted.

One man who is at peace with himself against another man who is so far gone as to not even know how to conceive of that state of mind.

It scares the hell out of me when I see Bush react this way, confirming for me that the world has to endure a very dangerous man for the next 2+ years.

Can we wait even a SECOND longer? SEE GRAPHIC…

by STOP George on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 06:26:21 PM PDT

These people are the remnant (4+ / 0-) Recommended by:Subterranean, sunzoo, Sophie Blue, psyched of High School pep rally patriotism.

Fortunately, they no longer comprise more than about 30% of the population.

Unfortunately, they are easily stirred to get out and vote as a bloc.

They consider themselves to be “at war” with us, their fellow citizens. This is a psychotic manifestation of a complex of problems that has gnawed at America’s history since its imperial course began.

We are not going to unravel all that right at this moment.

But what we must do is acknowledge the attack, and to respond, frankly, as good therapists would respond to an outbreak by inmates at the asylum.

First, keep them from harming us and our children.

Then, try to prevent them from harming other Americans: gays, minorities, what remains of our environment.

Then, hopefully, pull back the U.S. imperial fist from crushing the dreams and lives of defenseless innocents around the world.

Finally, try to keep them from hanging themselves in their cells…

If a thousand men were not to pay their tax bills this year, that would not be a violent and bloody measure, as it would be to pay them, and enable the State…

by HenryDavid on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 06:31:15 PM PDT

Mr. Taylor was very polite (4+ / 0-) Recommended by:rgilly, sunzoo, jhwygirl, Caldonia Mr. Harry Taylor was being very polite, mild and restrained in speaking to Bush.

What I wanted to say to you is that I — in my lifetime, I have never felt more ashamed of, nor more frightened by my leadership in Washington, including the presidency, by the Senate, and –

And I would hope — I feel like despite your rhetoric, that compassion and common sense have been left far behind during your administration, and I would hope from time to time that you have the humility and the grace to be ashamed of yourself inside yourself. And I also want to say I really appreciate the courtesy of allowing me to speak what I’m saying to you right now. That is part of what this country is about.

He could have said:

I would like to kick the asses off you and your other psychopathic shotheads in the White House. You are ruining our country and the entire world with your evil, selfish, idiotic bullshot. You will go into the history books as the worst president ever!

by psyched on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 06:31:50 PM PDT

Cheney’s birdshot… (0 / 0) creates shotheads, s** discharge $20K Italian upland bird hunting shotguns into people’s faces… People in Eurasia on the brink of oppression: I hope it’s gonna be alright… Pet Shop Boys: Introspective

by rgilly on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 07:28:41 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Never you mind the crowd, this is history (0 / 0) And the beginning of a tsunami.
Catch the wave: emulate him. COWABUNGA!

From the Radical Center…

by INFOHAZARD on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 06:39:14 PM PDT

Fun With Photoshop (4+ / 0-) Recommended by:TaraIst, joynow, psyched, armadillo Via Walter Neff at walterneff.blogspot.com…

by dave1021 on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 06:47:18 PM PDT

Headline tomorrow: (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:sen bob, Caldonia, Pam from Calif “Taylor tells Emperor he has No Clothes”.

“But sanctuary never comes without some kind of risk” - Bob Seger

by YukonJack on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 07:13:11 PM PDT

Thank you Mr. Harry Taylor. (0+ / 0-) Recommended by:sen bob You are a true American and a true patriot. by jguzman17 on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 07:14:20 PM PDT

Thanks… (0 / 0) Even though we haven’t met and we might never meet, thank you, Harry Taylor, for speaking up for me today at the Bush NC forum.

by henna218 on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 07:49:32 PM PDT

boos….. (0 / 0) im sad mr. taylor had to hear them. sadder still, i fear they are indicative a complete unwillingness of these human popsicles to even consider a thought that might exist outside of their pre-decided sphere of bushthink.

and since nobody is likely to read this dangling, barely still-on-the-site comment, im going lowbrow. the chick next to mr taylor is obviously planning to ‘lewinsky’ him as soon as he is finished speaking. sorry.

by 73rd virgin on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 07:58:02 PM PDT

Washington Post has (0 / 0) coverage

We are the people we are looking for.

by working for change on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 08:18:15 PM PDT

Not enough, never enough. (0 / 0) There’s not enough beer or pickled liver or magic mushrooms to make a sane person cheer in the face of a perfect fool.

Cheney missed, and shoulda had that double-ought stuff loaded.

Neo-cons always hit the wrong target. it’s in their nature. The first anal sex was neo-con.

Bomb Mars, you crazy f***. Bomb Titan. They’re coming to get you and they don’t know Jesus in that biblical Christian Dior fashion.

Bomb the toilet! Sewers have demons and creepy little aborted blastocysts with wings ready to fly up your butt.

What does it indicate when a people allow an insane idiot to run their government?

do the time travel bit and ask the Weimar Republic, and get back to me.

by SecondComing on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 09:32:25 PM PDT

Thank You Harry Taylor. (0 / 0) You could tell he was nervous as hell, but made it through with dignity and style. I would have been shaking uncontrollably with rage.

http://thankyouharrytaylor.org

by grokgov on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 09:32:51 PM PDT

How do we send a thank you to this man? (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:bedobe

Impeach Bush/Cheney

by dangangry on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 09:58:28 PM PDT

http://thankyouharrytaylor.org (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:clone12, JohnInWestland, nogamez I rushed to get this running. Go over and say thanks.

http://thankyouharrytaylor.org

by grokgov on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 02:07:21 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

What a wonderful juxtaposition … (0 / 0) of these two images. I hope Robert Shatterly will add Harry Taylor’s portrait and words to his series of paintings, “Americans Who Tell the Truth”.

Don’t ask me nothin’ ‘bout nothin’; I just might tell you the truth — Bob Dylan

by ponderer on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 11:04:17 PM PDT

I’m just wild about Harry! (0 / 0) It was so nice to see someone calmly yet firmly denounce Bush’s doings. And I hope that it inspires more of us to do the same. All too often, ourfrustration gets away from us and we lose our composure. It is nice to see speech that is effective without being invective.

“History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce.” -Karl Marx

by Lainie on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 12:01:24 AM PDT

tHE POWER OF THE TRUTH (0 / 0) I was moved by Harry Taylor, because he was sincere in his delivery of the truth to Bush. And Bush the schmuck was also affected, blushing to no end, but quick to make a joke to try to belittle Harry all to no avail. If Cindy Sheehan struck a nerve in the public, Harry has now driven a nail through the thick skull of Bush laggards.

by Blue Generalist on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 12:26:41 AM PDT

http://thankyouharrytaylor.org - 1 mil thank yous (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:clone12, evilpenguin, nogamez http://thankyouharrytaylor.org

Watching the video of Mr. Taylor speaking with such sincerity and courage - and then watching the President’s belittling response - made me sick.

I’ve thrown together a site to collect thank yous for Mr. Taylor.

I’m hoping it will serve to illustrate how many of us felt Harry was speaking the words that many (if not most) of us are feeling.

Go over and say thanks.

Note: While the design of dailyKos is great, I didn’t think it was the right format for this type of thing - too many layers and controls for the uninitiated — which I hope come to the site.

Let’s get to a million thank yous….

http://thankyouharrytaylor.org

by grokgov on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 02:57:31 AM PDT

who would boooo? (0 / 0) seriously. That shows the amount of thought that goes into what so many on the right think or for that matter dont think. Someone says something about W, even if its true== Boooooo.

Even if I didnt agree with this guy I would booo. Shouting a well thought out rebuttle would gain much more respect in my eyes.

“Global deaths due to hunger in one year= 8,760,000”

by Sausalito on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 05:36:12 AM PDT

Permalink | 370 comments

By Stupid Selfish Liberal

April 7, 2006 11:37 AM | Link to this

Disagree, they’ve not been shy with goons (4+ / 0-) Recommended by:Carnacki, arkylib, jfadden, Lashe in the past. And, even if they’re angling for a new image, and “had” to tolerate the dissenter, that doesn’t speak to the fact that Bush’s verbals were not as horrifically clutzy as we have come to expect.

Better living through chemistry, I’m telling you … a triumph of carefully calibrated pharmacology.

The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function — Edward Teller.

by lgmcp on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:41:01 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

We should also (21+ / 0-) Recommended by:rhubarb, Mnemosyne, Carnacki, Creosote, maggiemae, Thistime, joynow, SamSinister, PeteZerria, arkdem, kisler1224, saucy monkey, Brooke In Seattle, owlbear1, jfadden, nhwriter, lgmcp, lilyvaldem, iheartbooks, blueoasis, Lashe keep a watch on our new-found patriot over the next few weeks and see how much abuse he gets. I fear for our Rockwellian hero, and I pray his actions serve to open eyes in his community. Not all of the responses are going to be as civil as the one outlined in the AP story. So, does Harry get audited by the IRS? Does anyone leave a dead cat on his doorstep? Threatening phone calls… you get the picture. Let’s hope he doesn’t succumb to mistreatment.

“(Cheney) shot a 78-year-old man in the face. Congratulations Mister Vice President, you are now a Crip.” - Jimmy Kimmel

by Timroff on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:00:47 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

He’ll probably be ‘Gitmo’d’ (sp?)… (0 / 0) or maybe rather than wasting all that time and aviation fuel to render him to Guantanamo he’ll just be “suicided.”

by murphsurf on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 04:05:42 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

we should keep track… (17+ / 0-) Recommended by:rhubarb, Carnacki, Creosote, AMcG826, L0kI, sagra, arkdem, antirove, Timroff, Brooke In Seattle, Pam from Calif, lgmcp, occams hatchet, FrankFrink, blueoasis, nogamez, Lashe of what happens to Mr. Taylor. IRS audit anyone?

“The American public voted for a second Bush administration out of fear, so fear is what they’re going to have from now on.” — Eric Haney

by billlaurelMD on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:33:07 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

we should send the guy flowers (9+ / 0-) Recommended by:rhubarb, Carnacki, joynow, L0kI, joanneleon, Karmafish, lgmcp, pico, Lashe or somehow show our thanks for being brave enough to do this. It would be great to do, but scarey for sure

We are the Left. They are the non-Left.

by leftout on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:02:26 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Yes! And get the media to photo-op it! (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:L0kI, Lashe Perhaps the commentator in his Moveon group can coordinate!

The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function — Edward Teller.

by lgmcp on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:07:20 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Contact us… (0 / 0) here.

Let’s see what we can do!

We are the people we are looking for.

by working for change on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 04:40:40 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Harry seems like a guy who would prefer (9+ / 0-) Recommended by:rhubarb, joynow, L0kI, Caldonia, amRadioHed, Sophie Blue, FrankFrink, lilyvaldem, blueoasis a massive donation to the local food bank in his name.

by Thistime on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 03:00:00 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

maybe to Code Pink (0 / 0) Notice that when he sits down, after asking the questions, he sits next to a woman who is wearing a very large pink flower pin. Then notice that his shirt is also vaguely pink.

My guess: this was a Code Pink operation.

We need not stride resolutely towards catastrophe, merely because those are the marching orders. — Noam Chomsky

by kainah on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 05:27:29 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Nope (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:EasternOkie, jhwygirl Not anyone’s operation.

Harry was acting on his own.

We are the people we are looking for.

by working for change on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 05:46:14 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

You do know about Sunflowers for Russ…? (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:joynow, rjo, blueoasis I’m heading up a campaign to send sunflowers and American flags to Russ Feingold later this month…

http://www.dailykos.com/…

Spread the word! 8-)

I don’t like Bizarro World… I want to go home to America.

by willers on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 03:43:23 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

How about (6+ / 0-) Recommended by:dan in sd, Creosote, joynow, lgmcp, blueoasis, Zwoof Our own “Kos Medal of Freedom”? I think we should honor the people who risk much to defend our Constitution. How do I get in touch with Markos about this idea?

(-7.50 -6.31) Preventive war is like committing suicide out of the fear of death - Bismarck

by arkdem on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 04:59:59 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

I kinda like that idea (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:joynow especially since president dickhead had completely devalued the real PMOF.

by Hard to Port on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 05:55:42 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Expectations are So Low (5+ / 0-) Recommended by:tacet, diplomatic, ArmyRecruiter, lgmcp, Lashe That I actually thought Bush showed at least some class, in reading the article. I mean, f’ his answer to the wiretapping, but “I’m not your favorite guy” is almost representative of cognitive thought.

Am I being hysterical?

by potownman on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:43:36 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Well… (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:joynow I heard B*%$ say it, and it sounded kind of condescending to me, like yeah, yeah, get to the point, bub. And it was said in that sarcastic way that some people have, kind of, “Smile when you say that, son.” Because you know you’re screwed.

by Brooke In Seattle on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 05:09:20 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

yeah, interesting, huh? (7+ / 0-) Recommended by:arthur, rhubarb, PeteZerria, jfadden, lgmcp, blueoasis, Lashe Earlier in his life, Dear Leader used to be a pretty coherent, agile public speaker. Without the fake accent, even.

James Fallows had a great article about this in the Atlantic Monthly (behind a subscription wall; you can Google for free copies if you must).

It is possible that he’s rehearsed for this particular sort of question, of course — it’s predictable enough in the event that the audience screening should suffer a breakdown.

So it’s probably some of both; there is a functional brain down inside there somewhere, and his handlers have probably been rehearsing him extra hard since the Cincinnati and Helen Thomas public humiliations…

by JayBat on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:57:27 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Read the transcript! (9+ / 0-) Recommended by:Pandora, Creosote, joynow, L0kI, jhwygirl, lgmcp, RiaD, FrankFrink, blueoasis And you’ll see that his coherence was really just kind editing.

You’ll find Harry’s remarks near the bottom here.

Somehow, CNN left out this little gem:

I’m going to start off with what you first said, if you don’t mind, you said that I tap your phones — I think that’s what you said. You tapped your phone — I tapped your phones. Yes. No, that’s right. Yes, no, let me finish.

So much for coherency

Rarely is the question asked “Is our President learning?”

by j4k on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:34:34 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Read it here… (8+ / 0-) Recommended by:lanshark, joynow, SamSinister, L0kI, jhwygirl, HK, Pam from Calif, kurt Hey, it’s from the government so I can damn well cut and paste it, ‘cause I paid for it!

Q You never stop talking about freedom, and I appreciate that. But while I listen to you talk about freedom, I see you assert your right to tap my telephone, to arrest me and hold me without charges, to try to preclude me from breathing clean air and drinking clean water and eating safe food. If I were a woman, you’d like to restrict my opportunity to make a choice and decision about whether I can abort a pregnancy on my own behalf. You are —

THE PRESIDENT: I’m not your favorite guy. Go ahead. (Laughter and applause.) Go on, what’s your question?

Q Okay, I don’t have a question. What I wanted to say to you is that I — in my lifetime, I have never felt more ashamed of, nor more frightened by my leadership in Washington, including the presidency, by the Senate, and —

AUDIENCE MEMBERS: Booo!

THE PRESIDENT: No, wait a sec — let him speak.

Q And I would hope — I feel like despite your rhetoric, that compassion and common sense have been left far behind during your administration, and I would hope from time to time that you have the humility and the grace to be ashamed of yourself inside yourself. And I also want to say I really appreciate the courtesy of allowing me to speak what I’m saying to you right now. That is part of what this country is about.

THE PRESIDENT: It is, yes. (Applause.)

Q And I know that this doesn’t come welcome to most of the people in this room, but I do appreciate that.

THE PRESIDENT: Appreciate —

Q I don’t have a question, but I just wanted to make that comment to you.

THE PRESIDENT: I appreciate it, thank you. Let me —

Q Can I ask a question?

THE PRESIDENT: I’m going to start off with what you first said, if you don’t mind, you said that I tap your phones — I think that’s what you said. You tapped your phone — I tapped your phones. Yes. No, that’s right. Yes, no, let me finish.

I’d like to describe that decision I made about protecting this country. You can come to whatever conclusion you want. The conclusion is I’m not going to apologize for what I did on the terrorist surveillance program, and I’ll tell you why. We were accused in Washington, D.C. of not connecting the dots, that we didn’t do everything we could to protect you or others from the attack. And so I called in the people responsible for helping to protect the American people and the homeland. I said, is there anything more we could do.

And there — out of this national — NSA came the recommendation that it would make sense for us to listen to a call outside the country, inside the country from al Qaeda or suspected al Qaeda in order to have real-time information from which to possibly prevent an attack. I thought that made sense, so long as it was constitutional. Now, you may not agree with the constitutional assessment given to me by lawyers — and we’ve got plenty of them in Washington — but they made this assessment that it was constitutional for me to make that decision.

I then, sir, took that decision to members of the United States Congress from both political parties and briefed them on the decision that was made in order to protect the American people. And so members of both parties, both chambers, were fully aware of a program intended to know whether or not al Qaeda was calling in or calling out of the country. It seems like — to make sense, if we’re at war, we ought to be using tools necessary within the Constitution, on a very limited basis, a program that’s reviewed constantly to protect us.

Now, you and I have a different — of agreement on what is needed to be protected. But you said, would I apologize for that? The answer — answer is, absolutely not. (Applause.)

.

IMPEACH! But First: Censure!

by MichaelPH on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 03:03:31 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Mr. Harry Taylor… (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:Knut Wicksell, joynow you are a TRUE AMERICAN HERO….

Where do I have to go to to hug you?

In loving memory of Sadie, my camping, hiking & swimming friend. August 9, 1995 - January 23, 2006. She was the very best.

by jhwygirl on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 05:13:01 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

actually at one point I thought (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:Creosote, lgmcp that the whole incident was staged just to give the President the opportunity to show “he can handle a critic”. But I guess that would be too far fetched and an insult to the man who tried to speak his mind calmly and with courage.

What doesn’t cross over in the transcript is that the President LOVES to interrupt people to try to throw them off their line of thoughts and to distract the audience from the point a critic tries to make.

This is a standard feature in his attitude. He ALWAYS tries to interrupt with poor little jokes, has great fun with his own jokes, laughs the first and the loudest and then comes down as the generous benign figure who reminds the audience that this “little critic out there” has all the right to speak. Isn’t that amazing how often the President reminds us that we are allowed to speak? May be we aren’t that as forgetful about it than the President.

Sometimes I am very glad that all these TV video clips are not shown in detail on European TV.

A country is not only what it does - it is also what it puts up with, what it tolerates. - Kurt Tucholsky

by mimi on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 06:43:01 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

‘You tapped your phone — I tapped your phones’ (0 / 0) Okay, I feel better now. Thank you j4k for pointing this out.

THERE’s the tell-tale stumbling from following the earbud prompts.

The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function — Edward Teller.

by lgmcp on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:21:34 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

do you think Bush knows? (0 / 0) Do you think he knows how disastrous he’s been?

Do you think he’s feeling guilty about it at all?

I wonder. Maybe he was recting to a public drubbing he felt he deserved.

RULE OF LAW. That’s all the reason you need to oppose Republicans.

by nightsweat on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:52:51 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

He’s far too detached from reality for (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:lgmcp guilt.

“Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women.” Life Management Skills

by lifexpert on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 10:54:34 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Naw, he used canned b****** (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:Caldonia, lgmcp about protecting the country from another 9/11.

He did’t even touch Harry’s other points.

by Thistime on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:58:54 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

My favorite part… (7+ / 0-) Recommended by:joynow, fumie, jhwygirl, Caldonia, Sophie Blue, lgmcp, blueoasis was W’s failure to deny tapping our phones.

He should have said he doesn’t tap our phones, he’s tapping terrorist’s phones. Instead, he said he wouldn’t apologize for doing it.

What a hoot! We are the people we are looking for.

by working for change on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 04:44:12 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

that is infuriating to me also (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:lgmcp (Harry and I discussed that..)…I don’t know what p** me off more - the fact that he defends his wiretapping, or the fact that he doesn’t lie about it.

I mean, I have to wonder: Would I be happier if he lied about it?

as I said….INFURIATING!!!!

In loving memory of Sadie, my camping, hiking & swimming friend. August 9, 1995 - January 23, 2006. She was the very best.

by jhwygirl on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 08:06:32 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Let a liar talk… (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:jhwygirl and the truth will always slip out.

We are the people we are looking for.

by working for change on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 08:25:56 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Tin Foil Hat (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:mimi, B Rubble, lgmcp I just saw the tape on CNN. It struck me as too rehearsed. Even if this guy did’t have a bumper sticker or t-shirt to tip the screeners off, I don’t think that any old disgruntled citizen would make it in.

But what really makes me suspicious is Bush’s reaction. He insists that Mr. Taylor be allowed to finish when the crowd tries to shout him down, he cracks the joke about being the favorite guy. Then he defends the wiretapping.

My thoughts are that the Bushies can use this when challenged on the Bubble Boy meme.

(OK, the real reason I question whether this is a setup? If it were any of us, would we have been able to quietly sit there and wait to be called on, then calmly make our points? They’d be sending my remains for rabies testing! LOL)

“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” Benjamin Franklin

by WV Democrat on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 04:44:31 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

i would plot (4+ / 0-) Recommended by:Creosote, fumie, mattwynn, blueoasis and plan, and rehearse, and i would be as calm, controlled, and coherent as possible. the more normal i looked, the more likely people would relate to me.

if the only voices speaking against bush can be easily painted as crackpots, no ground is gained.

i dont even want to know what hannity is saying….

by 73rd virgin on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 07:09:13 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

I could be wrong but I’m suspicious (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:mimi, MissAnneThrope of anything that happens at a Bush event.

Bush was waay too slick in his response, and he didn’t respond to what the man said (“You should be ashamed”) instead, he said he wouldn’t “apologize” — which is a reflection of what McKinney did today, not what the man said Bush should do.

I suspect this was staged dissent. Remember this is the “Let Bush Be Bush Tour,” and one of the chief criticisms of his previous tours was that he never allowed any non-kool-aid drinkers in, let alone letting them speak.

Well. Here’s the very first time someone has criticized him in public, and he isn’t even rattled, shushes the crowd, says “Let him speak” etc. And the dissenter is rattling off practically every charge there is against Bush.

Very Potemkin to me.

But maybe that’s just me.

—felix

by felix19 on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 06:18:20 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

They been doing lots of planting (0 / 0) We had one at a town meeting with our congressman from Wolfeboro. He ranted and raved like an (angry dem) and said he only got his news from the internet. Only problem was he mentioned a rightwing web site. I looked it up a couple days later. Then another Gop plant got up and started yelling at him and the room turned hot. This was a staged show, for the benefit of the few republicans in the room that weren’t plants. Pretty pathetic. A dog and pony show. Oh and it was in a very small room the dems with questions were packed like sardines. The web site was newsbusters(fighting the liberal media) haaaa

Democracy is not a spectator sport

by Sophie Blue on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 07:14:28 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

if you call his answer coherent (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:blueoasis you have very low standards.

A country is not only what it does - it is also what it puts up with, what it tolerates. - Kurt Tucholsky

by mimi on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 06:26:02 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Coherent for HIM (0 / 0) And yes, that is a low standard.

As I read and re-read, I see that what we are getting is a passable rendition of a highly pracised set piece. The laugh line which is too well written to be his (favorite guy) isn’t his. Not only the canned FISA justification, but the transition to it, were professionally rehearsed.

However in their contempt for us they haven’t usually bothered to do even that. So clearly they really are frightened by their slipping grip.

The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function — Edward Teller.

by lgmcp on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:25:41 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

To me, the terrifying thing… (46+ / 0-) Recommended by:arthur, EasternOkie, Kimberly Stone, bramish, OLinda, leftyboy666, Sandia Blanca, HighSticking, Creosote, maggiemae, Thistime, km4, joynow, AMcG826, cartographer, Fe, ethans mom, PeteZerria, lilnubber, fumie, arkdem, averybird, JayBat, Ayanora, DrewDown, nehark, saucy monkey, Brooke In Seattle, Sophie Blue, mattwynn, owlbear1, jfadden, Karmafish, Overseas, FindingMyVoice, Drocket, lgmcp, FrankFrink, lilyvaldem, Amanda in NC, turning blue, greenearth, blueoasis, nogamez, Lashe, kidneystones About the story, at least the Charlette Observer’s version, is that they focus on how radical it is for the one man in the room to speak in opposition of the other thousand people in the room. In doing so they ignore: 1. that in reality, Harry Taylor spoke for 65% or so of the country, and 2. that it has been this administration’s strategy for the last 6 years to carefully stage events so that no such free speech is possible.

I want to see the MSM pick up those two angles and run with them. If they focus on the 1000 to 1 aspect, they make it seem like Bush and his policy’s are still the view of the super-duper majority.

by goodidealist on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:34:42 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

sounds like a good topic for …. (7+ / 0-) Recommended by:arthur, maggiemae, saucy monkey, Brooke In Seattle, lgmcp, nogamez, Lashe a letter to the editor to me.

“The American public voted for a second Bush administration out of fear, so fear is what they’re going to have from now on.” — Eric Haney

by billlaurelMD on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:35:59 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Feces (26+ / 0-) Recommended by:arthur, Kimberley, rgilly, lapin, OLinda, rhubarb, cookiesandmilk, leftyboy666, HighSticking, guyute16, ethans mom, SairaLV, bato, averybird, homo neurotic, Ayanora, JaciCee, subtropolis, jfadden, Pam from Calif, Karmafish, YukonJack, kraant, blueoasis, Lashe, BB10 I’m suprised those damn monkeys didn’t hop up and down throwing feces at him.

by Venus Bjornson on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:15:08 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Don’t give them any ideas (8+ / 0-) Recommended by:cookiesandmilk, L0kI, Sophie Blue, jfadden, willers, kraant, blueoasis, Lashe they come up with enough on their own.

by mmacdDE on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:28:24 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Don’t give them any ideas (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:rhubarb, kraant they come up with enough on their own.

by mmacdDE on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:28:56 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Don’t insult monkeys… (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:tmo, jhwygirl, lilyvaldem by comparing them to Bushco. Besides, monkeys are our ancestors.

“Lies, lies, lies, ye-ah… they’re going to get you.” —The Thompson Twins

by modchick65 on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:54:41 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

or at least our cousins : ) n/t (0 / 0)

Impeach! Please support: Sanders for Senate

by greeseyparrot on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 03:18:40 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

They throw it at the American people (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:PeteZerria, jhwygirl, Pam from Calif on a daily basis.

The Republican Party: Redefining Oppression for the 21st Century

by daveriegel on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 03:37:16 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

I guess we should (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:Karmafish consider the audience. The man was the exception to the “rule.”

by turning blue on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:48:38 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

true (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:saucy monkey I grew up in Charlotte. The main reason I don’t live there now, besides the humidity, is because it’s such a conservative town.

Just because you’re self-righteous doesn’t mean you’re not a hypocrite.

by AMcG826 on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:39:41 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Amen (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:blueoasis from another former Charlottean who fled as soon as I was old enough. I thought I would literally stifle to death there (both the humidity and the narrow world-view are capable of inflicting that fate).

I stumbled upon a website for my old high-school class, and was completely appalled. It was drenched in pseudo-Christian right-wing kool-aid. And—surprise, surprise—almost none of the old crowd has left Charlotte.

Of science and the human heart, there is no limit. — Bono

by saucy monkey on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 04:03:44 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

the lady to Mr. Taylor’s right… (52+ / 0-) Recommended by:arthur, Kimberley, RichM, Alumbrados, TealVeal, lipris, TaraIst, Pandora, m maddog, bramish, Carnacki, Creosote, joynow, ashleyGA, SLJ, spartan68, L0kI, ethans mom, lilnubber, arkdem, SairaLV, modchick65, smash, Caldonia, homo neurotic, horsewithnoname, Ayanora, TexH, sharkbite, arkylib, irate, Brooke In Seattle, owlbear1, jfadden, Overseas, Omen, nhwriter, Shotput8, kitchen table activist, Mehitabel9, lgmcp, FrankFrink, kraant, Distaste for Dissent, Ellicatt, turning blue, greenearth, blueoasis, nogamez, Lashe, The Wife of Bath, murphthesurf needs a caption: “Oh no he didn’t!”

Yes, yes, he did. And I thank Mr. Taylor for having the guts to speak up at the rally, knowing that people have been thrown out for lesser offenses (like wearing an unwanted tshirt or having the “wrong” bumpersticker).

“So long as we have enough people in this country willing to fight for their rights, we’ll be called a democracy.” ~Roger Baldwin

by spyral on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:15:15 PM PDT

i love the look on her face (6+ / 0-) Recommended by:spyral, Carnacki, L0kI, Caldonia, irate, jfadden, Lashe it’s priceless.

“after the Rapture, we get all their s**”

check out An Angry Yank in Kent. now mostly legible!

by lipris on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:33:59 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Perfect (11+ / 0-) Recommended by:arthur, spyral, joynow, Caldonia, TexH, irate, Bad Cog, jfadden, nhwriter, nogamez, Lashe That face just “makes” the picture for me.

It’s worth noting the contrast in the faces of the onlookers in both pictures: Rockwell — respectful, solicitous. Today — shocked, p**-off (the lady in the LL corner)

by loopster on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:50:19 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

It is THAT kind of look, (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:jfadden, Lashe shock and awe - that increasingly will be displayed by more and more of the Bush supporters (true, we don’t know if this woman was there in support of the president; maybe she was just expressing unhappiness with her seating next to something radioactive) as more citizens wake up to the fetid reality of this administration.

You know you’re right because god thinks like you and you want the rest of the people to emulate god too.

by Ayanora on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:51:56 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

There you go. (6+ / 0-) Recommended by:spyral, joynow, Sophie Blue, jfadden, Overseas, nhwriter It’s time to bring Shock and Awe home to the Republicans.

Not the bombs and white phosphorus they like to use - I’m talking about our determination to speak truth to power. Leaves them awed and in shock every time - well, when it doesn’t leave the apoplectic!

Ignorance killed the cat. Curiousity was framed.

by Lashe on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:13:42 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

how about… (14+ / 0-) Recommended by:spyral, joynow, L0kI, averybird, jamfan, vacantlook, vansterdam, mattwynn, jfadden, Pam from Calif, pico, carolita, FakeNews, armadillo

by zed on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:14:34 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Thanks; (0 / 0) I spit my coffee everywhere, laughing so hard. Thanks.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

by pico on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:44:40 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

I actually think she was booing (0 / 0) Was she booing the prez or booing Harry Taylor?

I can’t tell.

She’s looking at the Prez while she’s booing…so I’m thinkin’ she’s booing the Prez.

by suzq on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:33:42 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Nope, no one booed the President (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:Caldonia they only tried to shout Harry down.

by Thistime on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 03:02:08 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Ah…so Rove hasn’t lost his touch. (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:kidneystones I was beginning to worry that his sheep-herding skills were getting a bit rusty.

by suzq on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 03:54:06 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Righteous indignation (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:Caldonia allowed him to succeed. It’s a powerful force.

It’s the “anti-fear-propaganda” solution: positive news: HeroicStories, free

by AllisonInSeattle on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 02:58:51 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Great Comparision (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:Mz Kleen, kraant n/t

by xy109e3 on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:15:27 PM PDT

Great Catch (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:L0kI, kraant, blueoasis Poor Mr. Henry Taylor just ended up on an NSA watchlist, I bet.

by goodidealist on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:20:06 PM PDT

the name in the article is ‘Harry Taylor’ (4+ / 0-) Recommended by:Kimberly Stone, bramish, nhwriter, blueoasis but the way these schmendricks work, you are probably quite right.

Why does Henry Taylor hate America?

“Anything that’s good for your heart is good for your p***.” Dr. John Mulhall,New York Presbyterian Hospital

by sayitaintso on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:35:45 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

oops (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:nhwriter, FrankFrink, blueoasis You are right- Harry Taylor and

You are probably right- everyone named Taylor is now on an NSA watchlist.

by goodidealist on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:11:39 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Not to mention the Tailors… (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:L0kI, blueoasis and they’ve all been purged from the list of registered voters by Diebold.

“…the basest of all things is to be afraid.” William Faulkner

by flem snopes on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:31:22 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy… (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:L0kI, Sophie Blue recently re-issued

…learn something new every day…

by nhwriter on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 03:00:18 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Buttle? (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:Brooke In Seattle “Who’s Buttle?”

RULE OF LAW. That’s all the reason you need to oppose Republicans.

by nightsweat on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:59:03 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

What’s with the woman beside him (7+ / 0-) Recommended by:RunawayRose, DaveV, SLJ, arkdem, JaciCee, kraant, Hells Bells Is she booing or signaling to meet Bush under the desk in the oval office.

With a big ol’ lie And a flag and a pie And a mom and a bible Most folks are just liable To buy any line Any place, any time ~ FZ

by f furney on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:21:32 PM PDT

she’s reenacting (6+ / 0-) Recommended by:arkdem, modchick65, hhex65, Ayanora, kraant, nogamez her favorite from the “bush or chimp?” collage.

by baccaruda on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:28:27 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

She pulled her jackrabbit out of her purse (0 / 0) Special Laura Bush commemorative edition. I’d make a pun about bush here…but…I’m not in my normal twisted sarcastical state right now.

“now this is not the end, it is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.” W. Churchill

by Thor Heyerdahl on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:35:13 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

i think she’s saying (4+ / 0-) Recommended by:lgmcp, FrankFrink, lilyvaldem, nogamez “hoe lee s**.”

“after the Rapture, we get all their s**”

check out An Angry Yank in Kent. now mostly legible!

by lipris on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:35:55 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

It bums me out… (42+ / 0-) Recommended by:arthur, Kimberley, RichM, bramish, Carnacki, Creosote, fabooj, joynow, AMcG826, ashleyGA, cartographer, SLJ, Aquarius40, L0kI, lilnubber, arkdem, averybird, Ayanora, HK, DrewDown, TexH, Rick Oliver, Brooke In Seattle, Sophie Blue, ArmyRecruiter, mattwynn, owlbear1, jfadden, Karmafish, Shotput8, FindingMyVoice, lgmcp, RiaD, FrankFrink, kraant, carolita, greenearth, blueoasis, nogamez, Lashe, dfisk, goodidealist …that it is surprising to hear an opinion showing disagreement with the President in a public question and answer session. How low have our standards become so that when a citizen exercises his every day right to freely disagree with the leader of this government it’s front page news?

Like Mr. Taylor, I am terrified of where this country is heading. We’ve had our liberties and rights picked away piece by piece, and soon we’ll be left with nothing but a polluted, war torn, divided country.

Good on Mr. Taylor for speaking truth to power.

www.myspace.com/wydown

by keggers on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:28:32 PM PDT

Well said, remarkable that any dissent is news (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:RiaD Same point as Goodidealist above, and you are both going to the heart of the issue. Preach on!

The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function — Edward Teller.

by lgmcp on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:44:25 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Yep. (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:L0kI, FrankFrink, keggers It’s getting to be remarkable that anyone outside the blogosphere dares to criticize the President.

The Congress is his rubber stamp.

The Media are his PR machine.

It’s remarkable that the goons who carefully screen and sanitize Bush rally audiences missed a person who has intelligence and a deep sense of patriotic duty to speak out, and was unafraid to do so in a hostile audience.

“Words are, of course, the most potent drug used by mankind.” Rudyard Kipling.

by Kimberly Stone on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:30:41 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Five Stars to You for the Visuals! (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant, dougymi Worth a million words but your closing sentence is Fab.

All the king’s horses and all the king’s men…package and sell it to win it again…

by MP Three on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:29:02 PM PDT

Awsome picture juxtaposition. (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:L0kI, kraant, FakeNews I just watched that over at TP. Maybe I should watch some of these speeches or Q&A’s. I usually see that it’s bush speaking and look for the remote. I hate watching him.

“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness.” Mark Twain

by dougymi on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:29:07 PM PDT

WOW! (11+ / 0-) Recommended by:RichM, sen bob, Carnacki, joynow, diplomatic, L0kI, modchick65, Caldonia, TexH, kraant, nogamez That’s almost creepy, it’s such a good match for the guy- his posture, the crowd around.

Cool!

by pdq on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:29:25 PM PDT

hope TDS covers this! (4+ / 0-) Recommended by:lrhoke, L0kI, kraant, Lashe n/t

Cthulhu 4 Preznit — Why vote for petty evil?

by Great Cthulhu on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:30:04 PM PDT

Taylor gets extra points for decorum (17+ / 0-) Recommended by:arthur, Pacific John, lipris, lrhoke, Carnacki, joynow, ashleyGA, guyute16, L0kI, arkdem, Silverbird, FrankFrink, lilyvaldem, kraant, blueoasis, nogamez, Lashe proudest moment of his life. I’ll bet. Proudest moment of today, for me, at least.

by baccaruda on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:30:56 PM PDT

THAT is (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:RiaD, kraant …beautiful. Excellent!!!!

by DEVO9SAM on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:31:11 PM PDT

favorite Rockwell (18+ / 0-) Recommended by:lipris, Carnacki, joynow, SLJ, hrh, ktakki, averybird, vansterdam, TexH, leolabeth, Brooke In Seattle, jfadden, Pam from Calif, lgmcp, RiaD, FrankFrink, nogamez, Lashe I love that Rockwell painting “Freedom of Speech.” I don’t think a lot of people, especially of my generation (I’m 31) really appreciate Rockwell.

I think this painting is one of the most powerful representation of what this country is all about than virtually any other piece of art that I have seen. It sounds cheesy, but the image is not only powerful, but quintessentially American.

The man, looking strikingly like Abe Lincoln, rising out of the crowd of his peers, at what appears to be a public meeting (city counsel, school board, etc.) and speeking his mind to what we assume is an elected official, in front of his neighbors. Very powerful conceptually. The painting also hits just the right tone. The looks on the peeople’s faces in the crowd is probably the most powerful part of the whole painting. You can tell just by the way they look at him that they are are not only interested in what the person has to say, but they respect him for speaking his mind and respect his right to do so.

by Nathan in MN on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:33:31 PM PDT

what i’ve always liked about this (24+ / 0-) Recommended by:arthur, Nathan in MN, m maddog, Carnacki, maggiemae, joynow, guyute16, SLJ, lilnubber, ktakki, TexH, leolabeth, baccaruda, zaraspooksthra, jfadden, Pam from Calif, lgmcp, RiaD, FrankFrink, UntimelyRippd, blueoasis, nogamez, Lashe, Zwoof painting is the contrast between the speaker and the crowd around him. everyone else is sharply dressed and look like they attend such meetings regularly. the man speaking is first and foremost a working man. look at those hands. he’s got the agenda tucked in his coat pocket and looks as if he’s just summoned the courage to speak about 30 seconds earlier. this is a man that has taken upon himself to engage in public life for perhaps the first time ever, and those others in attendance, who may have known him all his life are somewhat eager to hear him speak.

it is a beautiful and powerful piece of americana and one perfectly suited to this story even without that photograph.

“after the Rapture, we get all their s**”

check out An Angry Yank in Kent. now mostly legible!

by lipris on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:41:33 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

I love it for the reasons you state, but (4+ / 0-) Recommended by:KathleenM1, Reepicheep, lilyvaldem, UntimelyRippd I notice there is ONE woman, the rest are males.

This may say something about the norm in the 1940s-50s.

by dinazina on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:19:35 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

And they are all white males. n\t (0 / 0)

“Silflay hraka u embleer rah!” —Bigwig

by Reepicheep on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 04:18:55 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

and is there something wrong with that? (0 / 0) should Rockwell have phonied up the painting with a diversity that almost certainly did not exist in the small New England towns that were his inspiration? should the painting be dismissed or criticized or derogated because it represents some small impression of truth as Rockwell found it, rather than a larger impression of truth as we would have it be?

decades after Rockwell, there are still places in this country that are almost 100% white. not all of them are that way because anyone is trying to keep them so. many are that way because people generally leave, and rarely arrive. there is no particular virtue in pretending that such communities do not exist (by purging the popular culture of representations thereof), nor of assuming that they are somehow fundamentally inferior to more diverse communities.

I am further of the opinion that the President must be impeached and removed from office!

by UntimelyRippd on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:54:42 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

agreed - Rockwell is underappreciated (6+ / 0-) Recommended by:TrueBlueMajority, Carnacki, mrblifil, Caldonia, leolabeth, Pam from Calif He was an excellent artist and in spite of the “kitsch” label did some very true, moving work.

Perhaps some mighty victory is growing in you now. - Mike Finley

by hrh on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:44:13 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Ironically, (4+ / 0-) Recommended by:Carnacki, joynow, FrankFrink, blueoasis most Republicans today would espouse a longing to return to “traditional values” - and no one, NO ONE, better captured visually those values than Norman Rockwell.

Unfortunately, what most Republicans mean when they say “traditional values” is “my values.”

As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. - Justice William O. Douglas

by occams hatchet on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:04:21 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

I agree… (9+ / 0-) Recommended by:Carnacki, joynow, jiffykeen, Caldonia, jfadden, Mehitabel9, FrankFrink, blueoasis, Lashe His most moving work, IMHO, is the painting of the little black girl simply going to school between two US Marshals and there a squashed tomato on the wall.
“[A] ‘Sharecropper’s Society’ [is] precisely where our trade policies, supported by Republicans and Democrats alike, are taking us.” - Warren Buffet

by RichM on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:07:18 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

That’s the most powerful Rockwell (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:Carnacki, Caldonia for me…

by clone12 on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:09:36 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

It’s called ‘Problem We All Live With’ (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:joynow, Caldonia, blueoasis very powerful painting, IMHO

“A child miseducated is a child lost” John F. Kennedy

by Pam from Calif on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:29:06 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

I agree hrh, (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:joynow, Caldonia, leolabeth Norman Rockwell’s paintings had humor, optimism and perhaps a little sadness.

http://en.wikipedia.org/…

http://www.nrm.org/

I don’t know how to post pictures, so links have some of my favs by N Rockwell.

“Problem We All Live With” http://store.nrm.org/…

“Homecoming Soldier” http://store.nrm.org/…

“Breaking Home Ties” http://store.nrm.org/…

“A child miseducated is a child lost” John F. Kennedy

by Pam from Calif on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:26:41 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Amazing juxtaposition (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:kitchen table activist Brilliant.

I haven’t watched nor heard the exchange yet, but I just have to say, the pairing of those two images is arresting.

Thank you.

Let the great world spin for ever down the ringing grooves of change. - Tennyson

by bumblebums on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:33:32 PM PDT

Just as bad as being booed (13+ / 0-) Recommended by:arthur, bramish, fabooj, Thistime, joynow, guyute16, Ayanora, Silverbird, Brooke In Seattle, jfadden, FrankFrink, blueoasis, Lashe was the fact that Bush didn’t even understand what Mr. Taylor had to say. He wanted to know if Bush was ashamed because of his actions, and Bush took it to mean that he should apologize.

But if this shows us anything, it shows that there are still, after all this time, an audience full of dupes who will blindly follow this bumblefuck over a cliff.

Bush shouldn’t be given executive steroids.

by Omen on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:33:38 PM PDT

Made my day! (0+ / 0-)

by Big Z on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:34:58 PM PDT

Great! (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:arthur, EricS, Caldonia I was hoping someone would write about this. I saw it on CNN(I think, could have been MSNBC) when I was making lunch.

I do wish that when people challenge Bush on the illegal wire tapping that they are prepared to reply to his b****** with something like “but your’re ignoring the FISA court that allows you to do this if reported when reported within 72 hours, WHY are you breaking the law when this surveillance can be done LEGALLY.”

by lrhoke on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:35:50 PM PDT

I heard it on NPR (7+ / 0-) Recommended by:rgilly, lrhoke, joynow, L0kI, Caldonia, adigal, blueoasis Bush’s voice was shaking, that isn’t audible on the CNN version.

by Thistime on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 03:04:02 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

His face and body language… (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:adigal, blueoasis …it took everything he had not to explode. The “why I’d like to kick your arse” grimacing and drunk frat boy grin were not atypical of him when confronted. Yeah, the “leader of the free world”…uh huh.

Brown…the new black.

by Caldonia on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 03:33:30 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Remind people of FISA! (0 / 0) I agree! If you don’t mention FISA and the fact that the Administration can notify the FISA Court 72 hours AFTER the tap, then it’s too easy for Bush to imply that he can’t wait for authorization, that he’s protecting the American People and doesn’t have time for trivial legalities.

It’s also important to mention that if he doesn’t like the law, then he should have gotten it changed. After all, he has a majority in the House and Senate.

by EricS on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 10:19:49 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

The guy in Rockwell’s painting (14+ / 0-) Recommended by:bramish, Carnacki, L0kI, modchick65, Caldonia, FenderT206, leolabeth, ArmyRecruiter, lgmcp, occams hatchet, FrankFrink, lilyvaldem, blueoasis, nogamez is clearly a Communist agitator. You can tell by the pinkish hue of the inside of his jacket. And what’s that under his arm? Racing form? OR LITTLE RED BOOK!

More of Rockwell’s looney left-wing propoganda, I’d say.

Thy hand, great Anarch! lets the curtain fall: And universal Darkness buries All.

by Dunciad on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:38:42 PM PDT

Rockwell’s painting (0 / 0) depicts a Vermont town meeting, and there’s nothing more American than that. So hold your fire with the commie talk— the figure rises perhaps to opine on the town’s snow plow budget, and then maybe implore his fellow citizens to impeach the Pretender in Chief!

by Randolph06 on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:58:30 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

look closer for snark… (0+ / 0-) Recommended by:Carnacki

Dig down, find more. -5.38, -6.10 Brocktune Studios.

by brocktunestudios on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:02:34 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

I saw his snark (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:dufffbeer, Pam from Calif, blueoasis and raised an irony. Numerous VT town meetings this year called for impeachment. Hows that for traditional values?

by Randolph06 on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:14:57 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

You can’t get theah from heah… (0 / 0) Ned will tell ya how ta get back to the hiahway, bub.

People in Eurasia on the brink of oppression: I hope it’s gonna be alright… Pet Shop Boys: Introspective

by rgilly on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 09:13:14 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Here is the exchange (23+ / 0-) Recommended by:arthur, Kimberley, raatz, lipris, TaraIst, Kimberly Stone, bramish, chicagochristianleft, Carnacki, joynow, L0kI, lilnubber, tabbycat in tenn, Rick Oliver, jfadden, Pam from Calif, vassmer, lgmcp, occams hatchet, FrankFrink, Truza, nogamez, Lashe Q You never stop talking about freedom, and I appreciate that. But while I listen to you talk about freedom, I see you assert your right to tap my telephone, to arrest me and hold me without charges, to try to preclude me from breathing clean air and drinking clean water and eating safe food. If I were a woman, you’d like to restrict my opportunity to make a choice and decision about whether I can abort a pregnancy on my own behalf. You are —

THE PRESIDENT: I’m not your favorite guy. Go ahead. (Laughter and applause.) Go on, what’s your question?

Q Okay, I don’t have a question. What I wanted to say to you is that I — in my lifetime, I have never felt more ashamed of, nor more frightened by my leadership in Washington, including the presidency, by the Senate, and —

AUDIENCE MEMBERS: Booo!

THE PRESIDENT: No, wait a sec — let him speak.

Q And I would hope — I feel like despite your rhetoric, that compassion and common sense have been left far behind during your administration, and I would hope from time to time that you have the humility and the grace to be ashamed of yourself inside yourself. And I also want to say I really appreciate the courtesy of allowing me to speak what I’m saying to you right now. That is part of what this country is about.

THE PRESIDENT: It is, yes. (Applause.)

Q And I know that this doesn’t come welcome to most of the people in this room, but I do appreciate that.

THE PRESIDENT: Appreciate —

Q I don’t have a question, but I just wanted to make that comment to you.

THE PRESIDENT: I appreciate it, thank you. Let me —

Q Can I ask a question?

THE PRESIDENT: I’m going to start off with what you first said, if you don’t mind, you said that I tap your phones — I think that’s what you said. You tapped your phone — I tapped your phones. Yes. No, that’s right. Yes, no, let me finish.

I’d like to describe that decision I made about protecting this country. You can come to whatever conclusion you want. The conclusion is I’m not going to apologize for what I did on the terrorist surveillance program, and I’ll tell you why. We were accused in Washington, D.C. of not connecting the dots, that we didn’t do everything we could to protect you or others from the attack. And so I called in the people responsible for helping to protect the American people and the homeland. I said, is there anything more we could do.

And there — out of this national — NSA came the recommendation that it would make sense for us to listen to a call outside the country, inside the country from al Qaeda or suspected al Qaeda in order to have real-time information from which to possibly prevent an attack. I thought that made sense, so long as it was constitutional. Now, you may not agree with the constitutional assessment given to me by lawyers — and we’ve got plenty of them in Washington — but they made this assessment that it was constitutional for me to make that decision.

I then, sir, took that decision to members of the United States Congress from both political parties and briefed them on the decision that was made in order to protect the American people. And so members of both parties, both chambers, were fully aware of a program intended to know whether or not al Qaeda was calling in or calling out of the country. It seems like — to make sense, if we’re at war, we ought to be using tools necessary within the Constitution, on a very limited basis, a program that’s reviewed constantly to protect us.

Now, you and I have a different — of agreement on what is needed to be protected. But you said, would I apologize for that? The answer — answer is, absolutely not. (Applause.)

Arrogant lips are unsuited to a fool— how much worse lying lips to a ruler - Proverbs 17:7

by BarbinMD on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:40:20 PM PDT

Forgot to add… (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:L0kI, Pam from Calif …the link.

Arrogant lips are unsuited to a fool— how much worse lying lips to a ruler - Proverbs 17:7

by BarbinMD on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:42:01 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

what is ross perot talking about here? (8+ / 0-) Recommended by:Kimberley, mrblifil, BarbinMD, homo neurotic, DrewDown, sharkbite, FrankFrink, Lashe I’m going to start off with what you first said, if you don’t mind, you said that I tap your phones — I think that’s what you said. You tapped your phone — I tapped your phones. Yes. No, that’s right. Yes, no, let me finish.

“after the Rapture, we get all their s**”

check out An Angry Yank in Kent. now mostly legible!

by lipris on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:44:23 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

‘Can I finish?’ (0 / 0) Reminds me of Perot as the spokesperson for the Female Circumcision Party (SNL/96)

Intelligent Designer Laments Lapse in Intelligence

by mrblifil on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:17:52 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

He’s talking to the voice in his hear (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:Creosote, joynow, blueoasis In these settings, Bush is known for suddenly interrupting himself as if answering some unseen person. It’s evidence for the voice in his ear.

See: http://www.isbushwired.com/

Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on. —Winston Churchill

by rmwarnick on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 03:38:08 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

What this is about…. (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:L0kI, PeteZerria First, Bush mocked and laughed at the man. Then Bush said he had the right to wiretap anyone he damn well pleases, to “protect” people from terrorists.

Probably Harry Taylor has been moved to an undisclosed location and where a secret government agency whisks him away to some “guest hotel” in Eastern Europe.

Proud Commie or Frustrated Capitalist?

by vassmer on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:03:13 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

so… (0 / 0) what’s the on-the-level rebuttal to what bush said?

other than the snarky venting.

Beatpaths: automatic graphical sports power rankings.

by tunesmith on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:15:14 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Snark this. (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:greeseyparrot, blueoasis The on-the-level rebuttal to Bush is that Bush swore to uphold the Constitution, and has violated it with impugnity.

The truth is your rebuttal.

“Words are, of course, the most potent drug used by mankind.” Rudyard Kipling.

by Kimberly Stone on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:33:46 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

nope (0 / 0) that’s not a rebuttal. he specifically says he believes his action was consistent with the constitution.

Beatpaths: automatic graphical sports power rankings.

by tunesmith on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 04:50:47 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Well, he can believe anything he likes. (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:Kimberly Stone The ability to delude oneself that one is not breaking the law isn’t a free pass to do anything one chooses.

In criminal law, not being able to tell right from wrong is often accepted as a defense by virtue of insanity. But if you apply that to Bush’s case, you are left with the uncomfortable consequence that your President is insane.

And remember — this is the guy who has the big red button.

Folly is fractal: the closer you look at it, the more of it there is. - TNH

by Canadian Reader on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 07:51:22 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Duh. (0 / 0) I can believe the moon is made out of swiss cheese.

Doesn’t make it true.

“Words are, of course, the most potent drug used by mankind.” Rudyard Kipling.

by Kimberly Stone on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:47:53 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

whups (0 / 0) meant to post this below here - what would be the on-the-level rebuttal to what bush said, then?

Beatpaths: automatic graphical sports power rankings.

by tunesmith on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:16:17 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

I wonder if Harry Taylor is a blogger. (4+ / 0-) Recommended by:L0kI, Caldonia, Overseas, kitchen table activist, nogamez If so, he deserves a Koufax for what he said today.

Or the Medal of Freedom.

If I can’t dance, it’s not my revolution.

by wmtriallawyer on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:42:45 PM PDT

The guy’s not eligible for the Medal of Freedom (10+ / 0-) Recommended by:L0kI, wmtriallawyer, Needa Bigger Pretzel, Brooke In Seattle, Pam from Calif, kitchen table activist, occams hatchet, blueoasis, Lashe, Randolph06 He hasn’t f*cked up a foreign country yet.

by loopster on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:53:13 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

… or a major American city n/t (5+ / 0-) Recommended by:L0kI, wmtriallawyer, Pam from Calif, kitchen table activist, blueoasis

As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. - Justice William O. Douglas

by occams hatchet on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:06:28 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

I’d put that photo… (10+ / 0-) Recommended by:Kimberly Stone, joynow, jhwygirl, wmtriallawyer, baccaruda, kitchen table activist, Mehitabel9, FrankFrink, blueoasis, nogamez on the short list for Pulitzer. Although I don’t really know the criteria, or if the photographer had the Rockwell angles in mind when he took it. Happy accident at least, and I expect to see it in Time’s photo’s of the Year someday.

by goodidealist on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:14:22 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

I assume the similarity was intentional (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:joynow, AllisonInSeattle, FrankFrink the Rockwell is such a classic, and a photo that a lot of people are thinking about these days as free speech is under attack, so any photojournalist who knows anything about what s/he is doing knew the photo would bear some visual similarity to the Rockwell.

or else the Lord works in even more mysterious political ways than I thought!

Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D. IMPEACH

by TrueBlueMajority on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 04:28:30 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Yes - Credit Where Credit is Due (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:sen bob, AllisonInSeattle, Zwoof Who’s the photographer?

He or she ought to be getting credit every time the photo is used.

by Brooke In Seattle on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 05:43:18 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Gerald Herbert (0 / 0) The AP photo on Yahoo says it’s by Gerald Herbert.

http://news.yahoo.com/…

A word after a word after a word is power. — Margaret Atwood

by tmo on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:24:05 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

What has happened to us? (35+ / 0-) Recommended by:arthur, Kimberley, RonV, Kimberly Stone, sen bob, bramish, Carnacki, joynow, L0kI, PeteZerria, lilnubber, SairaLV, johanus, homo neurotic, AllisonInSeattle, greeseyparrot, Maddie05, Rick Oliver, zaraspooksthra, Brooke In Seattle, roninbushido, ArmyRecruiter, jfadden, newmexicobear, Overseas, kitchen table activist, Mehitabel9, lgmcp, RiaD, occams hatchet, FrankFrink, carolita, blueoasis, nogamez, Lashe How far have we sunk that all is takes to bring me to the brink of tears is reading that one citizen had the guts and was able to get through W’s bubble to tell the simple truth as he saw it.

I read TP’s post and the AP story and I’m astounded. Big kudos to the World Affairs Council for upholding their standards for who attends and who asks questions. Frankly, I can’t believe it even happened. Then to read Mr. Taylor’s comments. I can’t imagine the pressure of standing up in that crowd and speaking truth to power.

Shame on those people who booed him. No, I’m not at all surprised. But I’m no less disgusted. That man is a patriot and I thank him.

How pathetic is it that it has taken this many years for someone to do something as basic as stand up tell Bush the unvarnished truth. How many bets that this is the last time?

Impeach Bush.

by homogenius on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:44:18 PM PDT

Perhaps (28+ / 0-) Recommended by:arthur, Kimberley, RichM, Kimberly Stone, sen bob, dan in sd, Carnacki, joynow, L0kI, Spud1, ethans mom, SairaLV, suzq, horatio in il, AllisonInSeattle, Rick Oliver, jfadden, Pam from Calif, Overseas, Mehitabel9, RiaD, occams hatchet, Truza, blueoasis, nogamez, Lashe, dfisk, p** Nancy Pelosi should look to this person for a true definition of taking the gloves off.

Actions speak louder then words. My new hero: Harry Taylor, American, Patriot and Freedom Fighter.

No Pombo Mambo!

by SanJoseLady on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:48:21 PM PDT

uh, this guys used words (0 / 0)

We are the Left. They are the non-Left.

by leftout on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:14:34 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

He used them (5+ / 0-) Recommended by:sen bob, joynow, AllisonInSeattle, lilyvaldem, blueoasis in a public setting, he stood up in what was obviously a crowd that was not going to support his words, but he showed no fear, he did NOT back down.

Taking off gloves means action, including standing up and SAYING what needs to be said, no matter how uncomfortable that might be.

In this case standing up to say what needed to be said was action.

No Pombo Mambo!

by SanJoseLady on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:41:01 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

I’ve seen Nancy do the same thing. (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:shpilk, L0kI She is not ineffective.

standing up to say what needed to be said was action - she has done this.

We are the Left. They are the non-Left.

by leftout on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:56:50 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Interesting response from one audience member (23+ / 0-) Recommended by:arthur, Alumbrados, rgilly, boadicea, shock, L0kI, scrumpy7, SairaLV, suzq, tabbycat in tenn, AllisonInSeattle, HK, DrewDown, Rick Oliver, baccaruda, Brooke In Seattle, jfadden, occams hatchet, FrankFrink, Distaste for Dissent, nogamez, Lashe, kurt Afterward, Taylor was approached by Barry Richards, a 42-year-old town manager from nearby Cabarrus County. Richards shook Taylor’s hand and told him how glad he was that Taylor had spoken.

Then came the punchline.

“I 100 percent disagree with everything you said, but I’m glad you said it,” Richards said.

Later in the article he’s quoted again:

Richards, the man who shook Taylor’s hand, said he thought Bush’s speech defending the war on terror and his decision to go to war in Iraq was one of the strongest he has heard from the president.

He also praised Taylor for his courage in taking on the president: “I thought the guy was way off-base, but I’m glad he got to say what he said.”

Bush ought to be able to handle a little criticism, Richards said. “I know he probably likes the warm, fuzzy campaign appearances, but it’s OK to get a cold p****** too.”

This is the way it’s supposed to be…

“Computer. End holographic program…Computer? Computer?”

by kredwyn on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:50:21 PM PDT

How did Bush react? (1+ / 0-)

Iraq War news and comment.

by Eternal Hope on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:52:09 PM PDT

heh…heh…heh… (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:Pam from Calif

The war economy is threating our national security.

by mattes on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:58:36 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

The crowd’s reaction disheartened me (4+ / 0-) Recommended by:Eternal Hope, MissAnneThrope, MaggieEh, blueoasis It was the scene from Star Wars come alive - the Senate claps after they give away all of their power and all of their rights.

It was just like that.

The Democratic party - the party of sanity, reason and kindness.

by adigal on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 04:45:41 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Standard head bobbing… (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:Eternal Hope grimacing, tooth grinding, cracking his usual frat jokes.

In short, an a***** of the first magnitude…

Interesting touch in the video was the no-neck brownshirt local town burghers herren und damen goons on the risers behind the dias Roi du Soliel Arbustoboi II was making his asine cracks in reply to Mr. Taylor’s legitimate beef, craning their no-necks to try to get a look at Mr. Taylor.

All Kool-Aid drinkers…fer sure.

People in Eurasia on the brink of oppression: I hope it’s gonna be alright… Pet Shop Boys: Introspective

by rgilly on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 07:18:17 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Harry Taylor is a national hero. (15+ / 0-) Recommended by:arthur, Kimberly Stone, baracon, Gram E, joynow, L0kI, Needa Bigger Pretzel, Rick Oliver, mattwynn, jfadden, newmexicobear, kitchen table activist, Mehitabel9, blueoasis, dfisk Which is a sad commentary on how far we’ve fallen, when openly criticizing the president is considered a heroic act.

by peckcheck on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:55:51 PM PDT

By Stupid Selfish Liberal

April 7, 2006 11:38 AM | Link to this

A Norman Rockwell Moment Happened at Bush’s Pep Rally… And the Crowd Booed by clone12 Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:06:37 PM PDT ThinkProgress replays Mr. Harry Taylor at a Bush pep rally, who takes Mr President to task:

“What I wanted to say to you is that I — in my lifetime, I have never felt more ashamed of, nor more frightened by my leadership in Washington..”

This picture at ThinkProgress reminded me of Norman Rockwell’s “Freedom of Speech”:

Apparently, so did the rest of Bush’s hand-picked crowd:

“Booooooo!”

clone12’s diary :: :: [update] AP seemed to have picked up on the story (thank you spyral):

It was a moment brought to you by the First Amendment. [update2] it looks like I wasn’t the only one who noticed the similarity

Tags: George W. Bush, GOP, Recommended (all tags)

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by clone12 on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:13:04 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

I don’t think I understand the picture comparison (6+ / 0-) Recommended by:cotterperson, Carnacki, Caldonia, Ranting Roland, kraant, condoleaser Sorry if I’m being dense. Can you spell out the point please?

The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function — Edward Teller.

by lgmcp on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:21:48 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Norman Rockwell (133+ / 0-) Recommended by:arthur, Kimberley, spyral, Alumbrados, sj, tmo, Ducktape, Oregon guy, pb, fouro, lanshark, Ashami, TaraIst, sen bob, RunawayRose, Knut Wicksell, karlpk, Shockwave, Sherri in TX, cotterperson, bramish, meg, cookiesandmilk, terminal3, Carnacki, Matilda, Poika, bostonjay, Creosote, Geotpf, daaawi, dpc, maggiemae, bara, km4, Song Jiang, JohnInWestland, joynow, Cautiously Optimistic, rktect, jem6x, Morague, biscobosco, Glic, fieldsey, peeder, L0kI, Fe, thingamabob, WriterRoss, arkdem, antirove, CocoaLove, bato, wader, IM, suzq, modchick65, averybird, oldjohnbrown, wordene, Wilmguy, lezlie, yet another liberal, Caldonia, homo neurotic, GN1927, Scarce, hoof32, dufffbeer, dcookie, Ayanora, Rusty Pipes, kd texan, Scout Finch, vansterdam, MichDeb, leolabeth, joanneleon, Los Diablo, maybeeso in michigan, Treg, liberal atheist, MHB, Alien Abductee, saucy monkey, JohnB47, ZappoDave, station wagon, drewfromct, Brooke In Seattle, Ranting Roland, NeuvoLiberal, mattwynn, Pam from Calif, Phil S 33, Omen, bmaples, chasewho, spunhard, nhwriter, sodalis, chiefsjen, viscerality, fhcec, lgmcp, mariva, RiaD, FrankFrink, Testwizard, kraant, iheartbooks, tarheelblue, Distaste for Dissent, Ellicatt, greenearth, blueoasis, nogamez, jlove1982, MJ via Chicago, Lashe, imabluemerkin, condoleaser, Zwoof, Andy30tx, slv0000, lazybum, dfisk, BB10, kurt, guachi, rmpo063052, procera Norman Rockwell’s Four Freedoms were inspired by FDR’s speech:

In the future days which we seek to make secure, we look forward to a world founded upon four essential human freedoms.

The first is freedom of speech and expression - everywhere in the world.

The second is freedom of every person to worship God in his own way - everywhere in the world.

The third is freedom from want, which, translated into world terms, means economic understandings which will secure to every nation a healthy peacetime life for its inhabitants - everywhere in the world.

The fourth is freedom from fear, which, translated into world terms, means a world-wide reduction of armaments to such a point and in such a thorough fashion that no nation will be in a position to commit an act of physical aggression against any neighbor - anywhere in the world.

by clone12 on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:26:00 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Damn (8+ / 0-) Recommended by:cotterperson, cookiesandmilk, clone12, Carnacki, dpc, rktect, kraant, MJ via Chicago beat me too it.

by Crisis Corps Volunteer on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:31:17 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Clone12’s Biggest Contribution.. (81+ / 0-) Recommended by:arthur, Kagro X, pb, fouro, lanshark, Ashami, Kimberly Stone, sen bob, Shockwave, Sherri in TX, cotterperson, Carnacki, BenGoshi, Poika, bostonjay, Creosote, daaawi, dpc, maggiemae, km4, bronte17, Cautiously Optimistic, SamSinister, jem6x, susakinovember, biscobosco, L0kI, Fe, PeteZerria, artifex, WriterRoss, arkdem, jted, CocoaLove, IM, averybird, Caldonia, dufffbeer, bobcat, dcookie, walkshills, DrewDown, vansterdam, guyermo, iliketodrum, vlwc2005, maybeeso in michigan, who threw da cat, awesley, coloradobl, rlteiken, nape, Alien Abductee, saucy monkey, drewfromct, Brooke In Seattle, Ranting Roland, mattwynn, jfadden, Annalize5, vassmer, John DE, Phil S 33, chasewho, spunhard, psyched, mariva, RiaD, kishik, FrankFrink, Testwizard, Nightprowlkitty, benthos, Ellicatt, nogamez, imabluemerkin, Andy30tx, murphthesurf, dfisk, BB10, goodidealist in spotting the similarities between this photo and Rockwell’s drawing is that, laid side by side, they point out the stark dichotomy between then and now: between Rockwell’s symbolic image of pride and freedom— and the Taylor photo, which symbolizes those same freedoms now being attacked by Bush and Co.

“A popular government, without popular information, or the means of acquiring it, is but a prologue to a farce or tragedy”— James Madison

by Bad Cog on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:41:14 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

the dichotomy (25+ / 0-) Recommended by:Vico, rhubarb, msstaley, fabooj, joynow, biscobosco, PeteZerria, IM, dufffbeer, walkshills, kingubu, liberal atheist, Bad Cog, Brooke In Seattle, nameblock, owlbear1, Annalize5, John DE, Phil S 33, calebfaux, FindingMyVoice, RainyDay, mariva, FrankFrink, scottman In Rockwell’s painting, men in suits look up in admiration at the words of an obvious member of the working class. (This is Rockwell saying to America what we should be like in a way that was recognizable to Americans as their own ideal.) In the photo, those around the speaker look like he’s just cut an enormous fart.

by pkjnew on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 03:26:50 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

The lady with Shirley Temple curls… (6+ / 0-) Recommended by:Red Herring, dan in sd, Poika, kitebro, mariva, lifexpert looks like someone goosed her in the a* real hard; the pasty-faced battle-axe Rosanne Barr/Rosie O’Donnell look-alike to the right of Ms. Temple swallowed her Juicy Fruit; the lady upper right and back is covering her piehole and probably uttering words like “who let the commie pinko bastards in heah tonight?”…

What a bunch of f*** harpies…

People in Eurasia on the brink of oppression: I hope it’s gonna be alright… Pet Shop Boys: Introspective

by rgilly on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 07:36:31 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

The Republicans only recognize three rights (26+ / 0-) Recommended by:pb, RAST, wu ming, Ralfast, rhubarb, bostonjay, PeteZerria, CocoaLove, Wilmguy, bablhous, sharkbite, liberal atheist, ArchTeryx, Ranting Roland, owlbear1, thered1, churchlady, tomzultant, mariva, Montague, FrankFrink, Kingsmeg, blueoasis, Horsehead, Stripe, AngryFinn Know Your Rights

Number 1: You have the right not to be killed. Murder is a CRIME! Unless it was done by a Policeman or aristocrat. Number 2: You have the right to food money. Providing of course you don’t mind a little humiliation, investigation. And if you cross your fingers, rehabilitation. Number 3: You have the right to free speech as long as you’re not dumb enough to actually try it.

— “Cheap Labor Conservative”-use the term everywhere

by pdrap on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:10:03 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Mmmm… (0+ / 0-) …Minutemen!

by Pope Guilty on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:14:53 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Clash Reference (4+ / 0-) Recommended by:rktect, jhwygirl, ZappoDave, nhwriter Nice! God I feel old.

by tomzultant on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:23:48 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

This public service announcement (7+ / 0-) Recommended by:Vico, rktect, smarty jones, ZappoDave, Ranting Roland, FrankFrink, ActivistGuy courtesy of the Clash

by bato on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:24:29 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Don’t sing along though (6+ / 0-) Recommended by:lanshark, Poika, fabooj, L0kI, joanneleon, FrankFrink You’ll be taken into custody as a terrorist.

by pkjnew on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 03:23:00 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Here’s the (0+ / 0-) Recommended by:Bluesee link

“Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women.” Life Management Skills

by lifexpert on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 10:17:34 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

…with guitar (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:RAST, sharkbite

Republican Rallying Cry: “We’re here, we’re full of fear, get used to it!”

by smarty jones on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 05:03:48 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Right on, (21+ / 0-) Recommended by:karlpk, kdub, maggiemae, Cautiously Optimistic, rktect, biscobosco, Glic, L0kI, elmo, grrr, liberal atheist, saucy monkey, Brooke In Seattle, owlbear1, babatunde, keefer55, greenearth, blueoasis, armadillo, Andy30tx, frankzappatista The Onion, in their “Bill Of Rights Pared Down To A Manageable Six”, called the new First Amendment “freedom of Judeo-Christianity and non-combative speech”. Satire is dead, it is now closer to prophecy.

by pb on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:27:00 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

yeah that phrase (8+ / 0-) Recommended by:Ed in Montana, pb, wordene, bablhous, owlbear1, scottman, blueoasis, frankzappatista “Our long nightmare of peace and prosperity is finally over” Was eeriely prescient…

What kind of times do we live in when Jon Stewart and the Onion are the closest to truth?

no snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible

by biscobosco on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 06:34:20 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

investigation, humiliation (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:Young Freud, liberal atheist, Tonedevil watch what you sing

by Randolph06 on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:45:46 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

I’d be arrested every day then. n/t (0 / 0)

by bato on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:49:53 PM PDT

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Actually, just one right (6+ / 0-) Recommended by:arkdem, kisler1224, Shapeshifter, keefer55, blueoasis, 73rd virgin The right to do as your told

“Man lives a million years / and still he kills” - Captain Beefheart

by kingfelix on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 03:05:27 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

You forgot the big one (7+ / 0-) Recommended by:Knut Wicksell, elmo, Da Buddy, joanneleon, churchlady, carolita, blueoasis You have the right to remain silent. by clyde on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 04:13:46 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

The Dems Haven’t Been So Hot on Freedoms 3 and 4 (26+ / 0-) Recommended by:felix19, Canadian Reader, DavidW in SF, pb, janinsanfran, Knut Wicksell, RAST, bara, CocoaLove, bato, elmo, grrr, walkshills, AllisonInSeattle, Da Buddy, bablhous, joanneleon, liberal atheist, Bad Cog, rjo, psyched, fhcec, mariva, akasha, blueoasis, navygrad Freedom from Want and Freedom from Fear (defined by FDR as opposition to the spread of armaments and militarism) are the more radical of the four freedoms.

The Freedom from Want was echoed in FDR’s 1944 State of the Union Address, in which he proposed a “Second Bill of Rights”:

The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the Nation;

The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;

The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;

The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;

The right of every family to a decent home;

The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;

The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;

The right to a good education.

All of these rights spell security. And after this war is won we must be prepared to move forward, in the implementation of these rights, to new goals of human happiness and well-being.

America’s own rightful place in the world depends in large part upon how fully these and similar rights have been carried into practice for our citizens. For unless there is security here at home there cannot be lasting peace in the world.

In the years after 1944, the Democratic Party slowly drifted away from this commitment to a social safety net. Now it is the party of fiscal conservatism, clean government, and welfare “reform.” Better than the party of deficit spending, kleptocracy, and corruption, to be sure, but hardly a friend of the Third Freedom.

As for the Fourth Freedom, Freedom from Fear, though the Democratic Party once had a loud and proud dovish wing, the doves have now been effectively silenced, with most of the internal party debate on matters military consisting of more cautious hawks, like John Murtha, disagreeing with more aggressive hawks, like Hillary Clinton. Indeed, the party has more or less embraced the notion that a commitment to militarism is a necessary first step to be taken seriously on defense issues. Of course, if one says this often enough, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

At any rate, let’s hope that someday, soon, America once again has a party that is serious about all four of Roosevelt’s freedoms.

First they came for the human-animal hybrids…

by GreenSooner on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 04:24:04 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

WOW! (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:AllisonInSeattle Thanks Sooner! If only Dems would say something like that now,what a difference we could make. This is what I believe all Americans want now. I am in awe of a truely Great Man.

(-7.50 -6.31) Preventive war is like committing suicide out of the fear of death - Bismarck

by arkdem on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 04:47:51 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Nah, there are doves and people who want a… (6+ / 0-) Recommended by:decafdyke, janinsanfran, PeteZerria, Caldonia, liberal atheist, mariva …safety net. Boxer, Feingold, Kucinich, most of the Congressional Black Caucus, etc. They may be outnumbered by the hawks and welfare reformers, though.

That’s the problem-there are about 178 different Democratic parties, none of which agree with each other a lot of the time. The Republicans are much better at circling the wagons, giving order from the top down. Getting Democrats to agree is like herding cats. However, if Democrats did play follow-the-leader, the would become Republicans.

by Geotpf on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 04:50:53 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

‘I’m not a member of (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:Oregon guy, liberal atheist, mariva any organized political party…I’m a Democrat!” -Will Rogers, circ. 1930

“If you want total security, go to prison. There you’re fed, clothed, given medical care and so on. The only thing lacking… is freedom. “-Eisenhower

by Bulldawg on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 06:58:15 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Attack of the neolibs (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:mariva Stop repeating Green Party talking points. Obviously, you overlook the droves of good Democrats in the House and Senate who work day in and day out to make 3 and 4 a reality. They rarely seek the limelight and are mostly overlooked by the MSM and liberal media, yet many of our social programs have survived the Republican onslaught because of them. Just thank what ever God you believe in that they are there to help “soften the blow” of the odious legislation that comes out of Congress.

by dragon695 on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 05:14:13 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Naming Names (0 / 0) As long as you’re not just repeating party talking points, who are these god-given Democrats?

“When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.” - HST

by DocGonzo on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 06:14:16 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Green Talking Points (0 / 0) Well, I am a Green, and what I write certainly reflects a Green perspective.

My views, however, shouldn’t be seen as GP talking points for at least two reasons. First, the Green Party is a diverse and occasionally fractious organization. For better or for worse, we don’t really have talking points on which we all agree.

Secondly, I am absolutely happy to admit that there are good Democrats who fight on the right side of many issues (I should note that, while I’m far from alone, not all Greens are willing to admit as much). And these folks are, as you suggest, particularly useful in playing defense against bad GOP legislation. However, they are structurally marginalized within the Democratic caucus, and are much less capable of getting good, new initiatives made into law, or of stopping bad Democratic initiatives (and this was true even when the Democratic Party controlled both houses of Congress and the White House in 1993 and 1994).

First they came for the human-animal hybrids…

by GreenSooner on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:42:02 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

DAMN RIGHT MY BROTHER (or sister) (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:Caldonia, walkshills, AllisonInSeattle The Dems should bring back the Four Freedoms. They encapsulate the ideology of promoting the common weal in such a way that everyone can understand… and everyone but the pseudo-Horatio Alger types or the delusional Right can comprehend.

The Party needs to embrace FDR. He was the Democrats’ greatest President, and one of the best in the history of our country.

And oh yeah, he beat the hell of the Nazis, the Fascists and the Japanese militarists at the same time.

Phase 1: Collect underpants Phase 2: ? Phase 3: Profit!

by Oregon guy on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 07:01:46 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Holy crap Oregon guy!!!!!!!!! (0+ / 0-) You got reffed by Michele Pilecki over at Huffington Post. Good on ya.

My friend: Randy Kenyon for HD 8

by MTmofo on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 09:19:40 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

a matter of implementation (0 / 0) How do you ensure freedom from want and freedom from fear? Personally, I like Bill Clinton’s solution to freedom from want - create 23 million new jobs and expand the middle class to actually include the disenfranchised - over LBJ’s. I don’t think welfare states do anyone much good. Social safety nets are important, but we delude ourselves if we think welfare is a good thing. Deride me as a “neolib” all you want, but Marx and Marcuse would agree. I have spent enough time in poverty to know that being dependent on any government for my livelihood is not a desirable path for humans. We have enough welfare queens in the Bush family alone (Bush himself being at least the 3rd generation of his brood to live off the public dole) that we don’t need any more.

I believe in a strong defense and think that is one of many ways to be free from fear. I think the volunteer, professional military is a great concept, especially our military, being under ultimate citizen control. (Bushco’s hiring of so many private mercs is among the creepiest developments in the creepiest of administrations.) However, we would be a helluva lot safer with LESS military spending, and even more so with fewer military sales abroad. Not only are we the world’s greatest consumer of war products, but we also encourage the rest of the world in their consumption, and those weapons have a way of coming back at us. We could cut our defense spending by 75% and severely restrict arms sales abroad and still lead the world in military spending and be much safer.

With the windfall we could fund more basic research, build a technology academy infrastructure to rival India’s, secure our ports, secure our nuclear plants (and replace them with s** that doesn’t poison the planet for the next 300k years), secure our refineries, overhaul our intel agencies, hire more beat cops, etc.

But growing the middle class by creating more jobs, and creating more jobs by creating real educational opportunities, is the best way to ensure our security. If our nation is individually strong, we are strong. If we become a banana republic as Bush and Cheney would prefer, with a huge underclass working for crap wages for the rich few, we are puny, second rate, and backward.

by brainiacamor on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:42:31 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

A Great Argument for a Multiparty Democracy (0 / 0) Well, brainiacamor, you and I just disagree. IMO, that disagreement should be able to be democratically expressed. Unfortunately, so long as we’re stuck with only two parties, one of us is going to be shut out of the national conversation.

First they came for the human-animal hybrids…

by GreenSooner on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:47:57 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

number 4 - a biggie (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:liberal atheist the right to keep inherited wealth. and as for all you wage slaves… you need to become part of the wageslave-ownership society

no snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible

by biscobosco on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 06:39:38 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Why not? (0 / 0) Why should people not be able to pass their assets on to their children? Should you be able to pass along your house to your kids? Your farm? Your business?

This is one issue where the GOPpers are going to resonate with ordinary people more than you think. The inheritance tax IS unfair; it IS double-taxation. It does prevent an aristocracy, which is a good thing; but it is one of those fundamentally unfair government intrusions that ordinary people resent. Saying that people don’t have the right to keep inherited wealth is not going to win anyone an election. Well, not until we are truly a banana republic. In the meantime, you are going to lose a lot of middle class people inheriting modest estates from their parents or trying to pass along to their kids enough to help them through the coming Clampdown, to refer to the apparently again-fashionable Clash.

I am in favor of an estate tax only if it is used to balance the budget and increase education spending and thereby improve the economy and grow the middle class. I’m not in favor of it to provide our government with yet more buckage to go start pre-emptive wars.

I agree with Gore Vidal: we are ALL taxed too much.

by brainiacamor on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:52:12 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Thanks (0 / 0) fellow Clash fan!

“If you want total security, go to prison. There you’re fed, clothed, given medical care and so on. The only thing lacking… is freedom. “-Eisenhower

by Bulldawg on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 06:53:49 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Better watch what you say (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:blueoasis After we saw what happened in London, quoting the Clash has a tendency to get you arrested under an anti-terrorism charge.

Amateurs talk strategery, professionals talk logistics

by Young Freud on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 07:06:22 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Geek Alert (6+ / 0-) Recommended by:AllisonInSeattle, Da Buddy, edavis, sharkbite, FrankFrink, Nightprowlkitty I’d also like to point out the image in the Norman Rockwell painting was based on a likeness of Abraham Lincoln.

Now back to our regularly scheduled blogging…

by marci in ca on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 03:50:07 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

it seems so strange to me (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:elizsan, Creosote, blueoasis that people really said this, and said this openly, much less a president; is this a sign of the depths to which we have fallen?

/there are no rules except discovery /the only tradition is invention. come see my home at Surdus!

by joseph rainmound on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 06:56:27 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Swell, we’re 0 for 4. (0 / 0) Guess I picked the wrong week to quit drinking. (With apologies to “Airplane!” fans.) Had enough? Next time, vote Democrat.

by mofus on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 12:13:40 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

similar posture of speakers, similar angle used (22+ / 0-) Recommended by:bramish, Creosote, maggiemae, bronte17, PeteZerria, modchick65, averybird, Caldonia, zett, saucy monkey, vassmer, lgmcp, FrankFrink, Nightprowlkitty, kraant, jets ya, greenearth, blueoasis, nogamez, Lashe, condoleaser, Andy30tx also: compare the man in street clothes asserting his equality among others more well dressed with the man asserting his freedom of speech among others more brainwashed-into-entitlement.

by baccaruda on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:27:05 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

more on the rockwell painting (48+ / 0-) Recommended by:arthur, Alumbrados, tmo, fouro, lanshark, TaraIst, RunawayRose, Knut Wicksell, m maddog, bramish, Carnacki, Sandia Blanca, Creosote, maggiemae, Thistime, biscobosco, Glic, monster, Fe, lilnubber, antirove, averybird, oldjohnbrown, Caldonia, ybruti, Silverbird, plymouth, edavis, DrewDown, homogenius, maybeeso in michigan, Alien Abductee, Brooke In Seattle, Pam from Calif, QuickSilver, Shotput8, Crisis Corps Volunteer, lgmcp, occams hatchet, FrankFrink, kraant, blueoasis, nogamez, Lashe, Andy30tx, Carbide Bit, kurt, procera even more

Norman Rockwell’s Freedom of Speech

For inspiration for Freedom of Speech, Rockwell recalled a recent town meeting in Arlington, Vermont where he lived at that time. He remembered how his neighbor, Arlington resident Jim Edgerton, had stood up during the meeting and aired an unpopular opinion. Instead of objecting to his remarks, his fellow citizens honored Edgerton’s right to speak his peace.

by homo neurotic on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:30:11 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Olbermann needs to show this (47+ / 0-) Recommended by:spyral, Kimberly Stone, lrhoke, Sherri in TX, Carnacki, HighSticking, Creosote, maggiemae, Thistime, km4, bronte17, Helena Handbag, Loquatrix, metal prophet, biscobosco, Glic, L0kI, Fe, PeteZerria, lilnubber, arkdem, modchick65, oldjohnbrown, Caldonia, homo neurotic, ybruti, plymouth, DrewDown, Shapeshifter, maybeeso in michigan, rlteiken, jfadden, Pam from Calif, nhwriter, kitchen table activist, churchlady, lgmcp, occams hatchet, Testwizard, Nightprowlkitty, Ellicatt, blueoasis, nogamez, Lashe, condoleaser, Andy30tx, BB10 tonight on his show.

I am going to email him right now.

by Crisis Corps Volunteer on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:33:21 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Sent (56+ / 0-) Recommended by:arthur, spyral, Mogolori, lanshark, Tulip, TaraIst, Kimberly Stone, lrhoke, badger, karlpk, cookiesandmilk, logorrhea, Carnacki, bostonjay, HighSticking, Creosote, maggiemae, L0kI, Fe, lilnubber, wader, oldjohnbrown, Caldonia, homo neurotic, walkshills, AllisonInSeattle, Kitt, plymouth, Da Buddy, Sean C, edavis, bablhous, vansterdam, environmentalist, baccaruda, irate, Alien Abductee, saucy monkey, Two Types of Fruit, Shotput8, kitchen table activist, churchlady, Mehitabel9, FrankFrink, Nightprowlkitty, iheartbooks, Ellicatt, CommiePinkoScum, carolita, nogamez, Lashe, Hells Bells, BB10, kurt, chgobob, navygrad Dear Mr. Olbermann:

It appears that George Bush supporters have forgotten Franklin Delano Roosevelt’s “Four Freedoms” speech from 1941. In it, Roosevelt said:

“In the future days, which we seek to make secure, we look forward to a world founded upon four essential human freedoms.

“The first is freedom of speech and expression—everywhere in the world.

“The second is freedom of every person to worship God in his own way—everywhere in the world.

“The third is freedom from want—which, translated into world terms, means economic understandings which will secure to every nation a healthy peacetime life for its inhabitants everywhere in the world.

“The fourth is freedom from fear—which, translated into world terms, means a world-wide reduction of armaments to such a point and in such a thorough fashion that no nation will be in a position to commit an act of physical aggression against any neighbor—anywhere in the world.

“That is no vision of a distant millennium. It is a definite basis for a kind of world attainable in our own time and generation. That kind of world is the very antithesis of the so-called new order of tyranny which the dictators seek to create with the crash of a bomb.

“To that new order we oppose the greater conception—the moral order. A good society is able to face schemes of world domination and foreign revolutions alike without fear.

“Since the beginning of our American history, we have been engaged in change — in a perpetual peaceful revolution — a revolution which goes on steadily, quietly adjusting itself to changing conditions—without the concentration camp or the quick-lime in the ditch. The world order which we seek is the cooperation of free countries, working together in a friendly, civilized society.”

Look at these two attached images and compare. Norman Rockwell depicted a Vermonter who was at a town hall meeting who made an unpopular argument, but politely received for executing his freedom of speech.

Contrast that with the reception that Mr. Harry Taylor got after he made an unpopular argument at a Bush ‘town hall’ meeting.

Sincerely, David

by Crisis Corps Volunteer on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:48:29 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

artfully done !! n/t (5+ / 0-) Recommended by:logorrhea, L0kI, Caldonia, rlteiken, kitchen table activist, Nightprowlkitty

by homo neurotic on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:05:04 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Change in wording (9+ / 0-) Recommended by:elizsan, PeteZerria, Caldonia, walkshills, edavis, amRadioHed, nhwriter, Shotput8, blueoasis In your next-to-last paragraph, you write, “Norman Rockwell depicted a Vermonter who was at a town hall meeting who made an unpopular argument, but politely received for executing his freedom of speech.”

I respectfully submit that Mr. Taylor was exercising his freedom of speech. The Bush administration is executing freedom of speech.

by scoff0165 on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:31:53 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Forgotten? (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:joanneleon He hasn’t forgotten. He and his gang are actively, and explicitly, working to undermine all of the FDR legacy, so why should this be any different? Who cares if it’s in the Bill of Rights? Anything FDR was in favor of must be worth abolishing. They do seem hellbent on eliminating the four freedoms.

Cry, the beloved country, these things are not yet at an end. - Alan Paton

by rcbowman on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 09:00:38 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

CNN (or was it MSNBC?) already showed it in full (38+ / 0-) Recommended by:tmo, lanshark, Kimberly Stone, TrueBlueMajority, Carnacki, Creosote, maggiemae, L0kI, Fe, PeteZerria, arkdem, jted, wader, averybird, Caldonia, homo neurotic, walkshills, edavis, DrewDown, Shapeshifter, joanneleon, rlteiken, ArchTeryx, saucy monkey, Brooke In Seattle, Sophie Blue, jfadden, John DE, Overseas, Shotput8, kitchen table activist, churchlady, Montague, FrankFrink, Testwizard, greenearth, blueoasis, Andy30tx You should have seen Bush’s expression as this man delivered his message and question. He looked about ready to jump into the stands and towel-whip the guy. I almost thought he’d actually do it. I kind of wish he did.

He’s beat. He knows it. And he just can’t stand it.

This isn’t quite payback, but it’s a start. A very, very good one.

“Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it’s the only thing that ever has.” Margaret Mead

by kovie on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:13:04 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Time to go back (5+ / 0-) Recommended by:CocoaLove, saucy monkey, nhwriter, FrankFrink, blueoasis to the staged scripted silliness and fully screened attendees before this freedom of speech thing gets out of hand with 2 or 3 challenging questions and comments

by rlteiken on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:28:46 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Of course, (9+ / 0-) Recommended by:Creosote, arkdem, walkshills, edavis, joanneleon, saucy monkey, Brooke In Seattle, Overseas, Crisis Corps Volunteer it would have been absolutely amazing if the crowd broke into thunderous applause and a standing ovation. I dare say little Georgie would very well have soiled himself.

“Lies, lies, lies, ye-ah… they’re going to get you.” —The Thompson Twins

by modchick65 on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:52:01 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

I disagree kovie (0 / 0) Bush doesn’t care one lick what this guy thinks.

A Few Good Men? Spaceboy was asking Nicholson for the truth. Spaceboy thought he earned it. Nicholson’s response was: “I don’t give a damn what you think.”

Bush admitted as much by saying “…so I’m not your favorite guy.” Bush gives little thought to people like Mr. Taylor, or for that matter you or I.

Unfortunately too many in America think that we here at Kos are the wacko left. The fringe. The extremists. You know, those who hate America and want the terrorists to win.

by fightorleave on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 04:45:46 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

I frankly don’t care what the wacko right thinks (7+ / 0-) Recommended by:Creosote, fabooj, PeteZerria, CocoaLove, Bulldawg, bablhous, nameblock of the “wacko left”, because WE didn’t support a wacko president and his wacko ideology and agenda for the past 5+ years. To be furious at this man’s evil administration is the very definition of sanity, and to believe that it was anything but evil and crazy is the very definition of insanity. If sanity is defined by a person’s relation to reality, it’s clear who the crazy ones are and who the sane ones are.

In any case, it seemed to me that, if you looked at his face when this patriotic and courageous citizen spoke truth to him, Bush was absolutely incensed, as only an overentitled, overprivileged, spoiled, good for nothing, sorry-assed dimwit like he could be when challenged by an obvious moral superior. It was a look of “How dare you call me out on my obvious lies and evil misdeeds when my mommy and daddy promised that no one would be allowed to talk to me this way!”. It was both creepy and satisfying to see it.

“Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it’s the only thing that ever has.” Margaret Mead

by kovie on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 05:59:56 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Mr. Harry Taylor (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:blueoasis did us proud. He spoke calmly, even respectfully considering what he was saying. His heart was in it…as was so many of ours.

But I thought bush did his regular shuck and jive, I’m sure bush fans thought he did well. But I hope something deep inside bush is a tiny bit haunted, that the long dead sense of shame is stirred. Doubt it.

by joynow on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 06:32:36 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

I keep looking at the morons he has posing behind (7+ / 0-) Recommended by:joynow, Raddark, Bulldawg, bablhous, mattwynn, blueoasis, lifexpert him in these staged appearances (well, not so staged anymore, obviously), and keep wondering, who the f*** are these white bread morons and what f*** rat hole have they been living in for the past 5+ years that they still believe that Shrub is a good man who’s done a kickass (or as they’d probably put it gosh darn super) job as prez? Are they insane? What fantasy world are they living in? How can they not want to take 17 showers and scrub their skin till it’s blood red after sharing the stage with him? These are Stepford People, in a Jonestown-like trance as they cheer on their great leader.

I just don’t get it. But then I still don’t get all those adoring crowds that lined the streets when Hitler come to town. Their mindsets must be awfully similar.

“Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it’s the only thing that ever has.” Margaret Mead

by kovie on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 06:47:50 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

You lose all credibility (1+ / 1-) Recommended by:Jay C Trollrated by:billlaurelMD when you compare George Bush supporters to Hitler supporters or some demented cult. With rhetoric like that, “it’s clear who the crazy ones are and who the sane ones are.”

If you devoted half your energy (reserved for hating Bush) to fighting true evil in the world, then evil would wither at your mere presence.

by kjwood on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 07:40:45 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Really? ALL credibility? (11+ / 0-) Recommended by:karlpk, billlaurelMD, CocoaLove, webweaver, roninbushido, mattwynn, evilpenguin, babatunde, Orinoco, akasha, lifexpert So you suppose that Bush’s diehard supporters are perfectly nice, sane, intelligent people who just happen to think he’s a great guy, a moral person and a wonderful president, despite ALL evidence to the contrary?

They may be “nice” people (many people here have friends and relatives who adore Bush, and I don’t mean to imply that they’re therefore bad people because of it), and they may even, in certain aspects of their lives, be intelligent people (e.g. in their professional lives), but they’re clearly deluded in their love of all things Bush. And that, in my mind, is a form of insanity. As was the sort of adulation that otherwise “normal” people had for Der Fuhrer. I really don’t see that big a difference between the two kinds of adulation.

A person can be crazy in one aspect of their life but sane in all or most others. And to adore Bush at this point means that you’re either crazy, stupid, or cravenly opportunistic. Since these people appear to be too down to earth to be opportunistic Bush fans (e.g. corporate executives, very rich people, political players), they must be either stupid or insane, in this respect at least. How else can you explain adoration for this piece of s** of a human being? Or do you think he’s not so bad?

As for the Hitler comparison, I stand by it. I don’t mean to compare Bush to Hitler. That’s clearly not fair. As horrible and megalomaniacal a person as Bush is, as much damage as he’s done to his country, and people and parts of the world that didn’t deserve it, as much as he’s pursued a crazy notion of world domination and tried to destroy our democracy, as much as he’s favored certain groups of people over others, as much as he’s destroyed this country’s military and sent soldiers to their needless deaths, as much as he’s lied to the public and made propaganda a central part of his rule, as much contempt as he’s shown for his political oppostion, no, he’s clearly no Hitler.

But take away Hitler’s desire to wipe out entire peoples, and account for the obvious quantitative difference (so far) in sheer death and destruction, and I really don’t see much of a qualitative difference the two men. A monster is a monster, and Bush is clearly a monster. If you disagree, then there’s something seriously wrong with you, and you need to take a good, hard look at yourself in the mirror.

The man is EVIL. He knowingly and needlessly caused the deaths of literally tens of thousands of people in the name of a huge set of lies, while ignoring the plight of millions throughout the world who really did need liberating (and still do). If that’s not a textbook definition of evil, then I don’t know what is. Even Hitler didn’t personally kill any of his victims. And anyone who reveres him anyway has definitely got a screw loose somewhere.

You simply CANNOT equivocate when it comes to evil and evil men. It’s too dangerous to do so. His followers might not be evil (and I never said they were), but he clearly is.

“Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it’s the only thing that ever has.” Margaret Mead

by kovie on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 09:31:06 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Yes and hell yes. (0 / 0) I wish that I could give you a “10” for this post.

by roninbushido on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:25:09 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

I won’t troll rate the parent… (0 / 0) I won’t troll rate the parent post, but I will hit the old “recommend” for your response. I too tend to think it risky to make the Hitler comparison, but you did a great job of pointing out that the difference is quantitative, not qualitative.

In other words, Bush == Hitler for very small values of Hitler!

-7.13, -8.41

by evilpenguin on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:08:38 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

you’re so right about the evil withering (0 / 0) especially if you’ve got one of those holy hand grenades, too.

by elmo on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:59:03 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

irony alert (14+ / 0-) Recommended by:arthur, Carnacki, Thistime, arkdem, lirtydies, averybird, Caldonia, rjo, jfadden, vassmer, lgmcp, FrankFrink, blueoasis, Lashe Instead of objecting to his remarks, his fellow citizens honored Edgerton’s right to speak his peace.

emphasis added—sadly, we see clearly that the gap between rockwell’s depiction and contemporary political climate reveals the limits to how robust the comparison of the two images is.

still, props to the diarist, for sure.

by homo neurotic on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:34:04 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

The crowd was obviously booing the (35+ / 0-) Recommended by:lanshark, Ralfast, rhubarb, cookiesandmilk, Carnacki, Sandia Blanca, bostonjay, Creosote, HStewart, Thistime, CocoaLove, Caldonia, homo neurotic, Da Buddy, Sean C, edavis, bablhous, maybeeso in michigan, JaciCee, rjo, Brooke In Seattle, owlbear1, jfadden, nhwriter, Shotput8, kitchen table activist, churchlady, trojanrabbit, lilyvaldem, iheartbooks, blueoasis, MJ via Chicago, Lashe, Andy30tx, goodidealist ineffectiveness of the rally organizers, who failed to prevent someone who was not drunk on Kool-Aid from attending the meeting. After all, what is the GOP paying those people for, anyway?

Sometimes you cover your a* with the lame excuses you have, instead of the lame excuses you wish you had. (-3.00, -5.49)

by litigatormom on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:57:02 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

They weren’t booing. (59+ / 0-) Recommended by:lanshark, TaraIst, Kimberly Stone, karlpk, rhubarb, MakeChessNotWar, autoegocrat, HStewart, fabooj, Helena Handbag, Raddark, L0kI, Fe, arkdem, lirtydies, CocoaLove, modchick65, webweaver, YellowDogBlue, johanus, Caldonia, Bulldawg, grrr, coigue, walkshills, zett, Sean C, edavis, bablhous, DrewDown, greeseyparrot, maybeeso in michigan, Geronimo, JohnB47, rjo, Brooke In Seattle, mattwynn, owlbear1, jfadden, dansk47, nhwriter, Shotput8, kitchen table activist, trojanrabbit, YukonJack, fhcec, Reality Bites Back, Montague, FrankFrink, jets ya, 4thepeople, ActivistGuy, carolita, blueoasis, nogamez, MJ via Chicago, Zwoof, kurt, navygrad They were baaaaaaaing.

Not the church. Not the state. Women will decide their fate.

by JaciCee on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:21:12 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

boo-urns (7+ / 0-) Recommended by:Young Freud, msstaley, ThatsNotFunny, kisler1224, sharkbite, JaciCee, rjo

Remember, Remember, the Fifth of November.

by L0kI on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 03:48:38 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

No no no… (4+ / 0-) Recommended by:L0kI, Da Buddy, rjo, blueoasis it’s Boo-sh, Boo-sh.

Amateurs talk strategery, professionals talk logistics

by Young Freud on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 07:03:48 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Moleman: (0 / 0) “I was saying boo-urns!”

Everyone needs a laugh. Especially you. - NYComedyRadio.com

by ThatsNotFunny on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:34:16 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

AWESOME!!! We’ve got to make this part of the (5+ / 0-) Recommended by:CocoaLove, walkshills, bablhous, JaciCee, blueoasis dialogue - “Bush supporters baaaaaaad”

A friend of mine also suggested that every time a Republican invokes 9/11, everyone in the crowd clap twice. That way it blatantly exposes the subtle (and not so subtle) way the Republicans constantly exploit 9/11 as an excuse for every nefarious thing they do. It’s also something you can’t stop people from doing unless you tie their arms behind their back - Abu Gharib style…

I think, therefore I am NOT A REPUBLICAN!!!

by Reality Bites Back on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 04:27:41 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

No, I think they were booing the guy (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:jfadden, iheartbooks at the podium. It’s pretty obvious to me. Otherwise, they’d be looking at the guy with the mike.

by suzq on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:30:21 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Crowd reaction: “A non-pod among us!” (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:billlaurelMD, Randolph06

Donald Sutherland in “Invasion of the Body Snatchers”

“I was very careful never to say that Saddam Hussein ordered the attacks on America.” - George W. Bush, Mis-Leader

by DavidW in SF on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 12:23:11 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

wow… (0 / 0) the most frightening moment in that really good remake of the 50’s sci-fi. If I recall, the original had something of a political subtext that would be very appropriate today.

“The American public voted for a second Bush administration out of fear, so fear is what they’re going to have from now on.” — Eric Haney

by billlaurelMD on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 06:39:06 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

And in the new one (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:TaraIst, jfadden this man’s fellow citizens are amplifying his message with a hearty, accompanying, “BOO!”

I especially like the curly haired woman next to him. She looks like she could flip the prez the bird at any moment.

A friendly, hand-picked crowd is hard to come by these days, I guess.

by suzq on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:28:52 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Freedom of speech (8+ / 0-) Recommended by:bramish, Carnacki, SLJ, Pam from Calif, lgmcp, FrankFrink, kraant, nogamez Franklin Roosevelt made his “Four Freedoms” speech in his 1941 State of the Union address, focusing on the Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Religion, Freedom from Want and Freedom from Fear.

He said

In the future days, which we seek to make secure, we look forward to a world founded upon four essential human freedoms.

The first is freedom of speech and expression—everywhere in the world.

The second is freedom of every person to worship God in his own way—everywhere in the world.

The third is freedom from want—which, translated into world terms, means economic understandings which will secure to every nation a healthy peacetime life for its inhabitants-everywhere in the world.

The fourth is freedom from fear—which, translated into world terms, means a world-wide reduction of armaments to such a point and in such a thorough fashion that no nation will be in a position to commit an act of physical aggression against any neighbor—anywhere in the world.

That is no vision of a distant millennium. It is a definite basis for a kind of world attainable in our own time and generation. That kind of world is the very antithesis of the so-called new order of tyranny which the dictators seek to create with the crash of a bomb.

The irony is taht these handpicked audience members booing Henry Taylor are counteracting Roosevelt’s argument.

by Crisis Corps Volunteer on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:30:34 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

And Rockwell (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:Caldonia, lgmcp, kraant On the covers of the Saturday Evening Post over the next few weeks, depicted these four freedoms.

by Crisis Corps Volunteer on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:32:17 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

and here are the other three (36+ / 0-) Recommended by:spyral, tmo, lanshark, Kimberly Stone, karlpk, Carnacki, Sandia Blanca, Geotpf, Song Jiang, joynow, jem6x, L0kI, averybird, Caldonia, One bite at a time, ybruti, Silverbird, WisVoter, Sean C, vansterdam, joanneleon, JohnB47, panicbean, station wagon, mattwynn, owlbear1, Pam from Calif, babatunde, lgmcp, FrankFrink, Nightprowlkitty, kraant, blueoasis, nogamez, Hells Bells, kurt along with the one above:

click for the big version…

That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it

by johnny71 on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:30:50 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

The visuals are just what I needed Thank You (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:Carnacki, joynow, Caldonia to flesh out the historical text so kindly provided above.

The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function — Edward Teller.

by lgmcp on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:34:10 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

pretty powerful (14+ / 0-) Recommended by:Jay C, Carnacki, joynow, Caldonia, walkshills, One bite at a time, iliketodrum, joanneleon, Brooke In Seattle, nameblock, lgmcp, nogamez, Lashe, Andy30tx i went to the Norman Rockwell Museum last summer and these 4 paintings have a star location and display.

gotta say…they’re big and they’re powerful. in fact, they’ve got the handy little benches there for you to sit and think about it too.

It may not always be easy, convenient, or politically correct to stand for truth and right, but it is the right thing to do. Always. M. Russell Ballard

by Heather in SFBay on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:47:12 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

love that museum (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:Heather in SFBay, Caldonia In fact, all of Mass, really, but the Lee and Lenox area rock. And so does the museum.

by MissAnneThrope on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:22:08 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

a mass road trip (0 / 0) yes, i really liked it too. was disappointed i got there a little too late and was probably a little more rushed to get through before they closed…but i still got to see a lot.

i also got to know MA a lot better…that stop was part of a solo 20 day road trip, most of which was all over MA and northern NE…it was hot, but what an awesome trip! tried to take as “back road” as i could for most of it and, with only a couple exceptions, i didn’t really plan where i’d go until the night before!

i’d been to boston a couple of times, so i didn’t bother this time. started at a friend’s in sandwich, drove to woods hole (my favorite!), did the Old Sturbridge Village, stayed at a friend’s in worcester, drove over to pittsfield and the Shaker Village. then i headed north up to burlington, vt for a couple of days (my second fave…and stayed with a brand new friend!), over to wolfsboro, nh, then to bangor, me. did a great hike out on acadia, then down the coast (not to be confused with “downeast”!) to newburyport and gloucester and salem. over to lexington & concord, through natick back down to sandwich and up to ptown. last two days were out on the vineyard and nantucket. 2104 miles later back to boston airport.

one of the things that struck me…being from california and all…was how quickly one got around in just a couple of hours. sometimes it takes me that just to get to berkeley! LOL!

It may not always be easy, convenient, or politically correct to stand for truth and right, but it is the right thing to do. Always. M. Russell Ballard

by Heather in SFBay on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 10:26:01 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Those paintings (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:MissAnneThrope, Caldonia, Pam from Calif and many more at the Norman Rockwell Museum in Stockbridge, Massachusetts. Lots of info on the web page; lots of pictures in the museum. The degree to which you resist injustice is the degree to which you are free. — Utah Phillips

by Mnemosyne on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:48:34 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

My favorite Rockwell… (26+ / 0-) Recommended by:lanshark, dan in sd, johnny71, clone12, Geotpf, joynow, L0kI, CocoaLove, dufffbeer, DrReason, edavis, Sassy, vansterdam, BadgerGirl, saucy monkey, Bad Cog, boofdah, Pam from Calif, Karmafish, Overseas, babatunde, FrankFrink, Nightprowlkitty, iheartbooks, blueoasis, dfisk

Brown…the new black.

by Caldonia on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 03:28:36 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Hear, hear! (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:joynow, Caldonia, blueoasis I visited the Rockwell museum in upstate MA some years ago, and I was stunned at the evolution of his painting as he got older. I had only seen the most popular, happy stuff, and was thrilled to see this painting, as well as another about the murder of three civil right workers in Mississippi.

Clark ‘08

by DrReason on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 04:41:10 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

subversive dude (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:Caldonia that Rockwell, eh?

by elmo on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:00:41 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

You bet. n/t (0 / 0)

Brown…the new black.

by Caldonia on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:11:04 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

johnny 71… (15+ / 0-) Recommended by:dan in sd, johnny71, Geotpf, joynow, arkdem, vansterdam, joanneleon, BadgerGirl, Brooke In Seattle, nameblock, Pam from Calif, Nightprowlkitty, iheartbooks, carolita, blueoasis …here’s a larger standalone version of one of the Four Freedoms, “Freedom to Worship.” I think it’s terribly important to be able to see Rockwell’s words:
EACH ACCORDING TO THE DICTATES OF HIS OWN CONSCIENCE

Guess the GOP forgot.

Brown…the new black.

by Caldonia on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 03:56:59 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

I’d say dense as hell (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:Caldonia

by MuldraughTim on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 09:30:32 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Really terrific juxtaposition (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:Caldonia It reminds me of the bit in Broadcast News — Albert Brooks’s character uses a Rockwell, too…

-9.63, -7.03 Rage, rage against the Lying of the Right

by Maryscott OConnor on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 03:02:13 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Broadcast News. (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:Maryscott OConnor Isn’t that the Brian Williams biography?

We are all insurgents now.

by The Gryffin on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 03:43:36 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

This is the greatest visual presentation… (0 / 0) I’ve ever seen on dkos:

Congrats

by IkeArumba on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 08:20:13 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Nicely done. (nt) (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:Caldonia, station wagon, kraant

I see them bound by a philosophy with plans and tactics to impose their will on other countries. - G. Bush, on terrorists, 3/21/06

by Yellow Canary on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:10:00 PM PDT

update with a news item (16+ / 0-) Recommended by:lanshark, Carnacki, SLJ, Caldonia, Da Buddy, joanneleon, Rick Oliver, rlteiken, station wagon, viral, mattwynn, Pam from Calif, Omen, lgmcp, kraant, rgdurst or more from the exchange and let’s get this baby on the rec list!

by georgia10 on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:10:21 PM PDT

more here (16+ / 0-) Recommended by:arthur, Carnacki, maggiemae, joynow, L0kI, Caldonia, joanneleon, mattwynn, Pam from Calif, Omen, lgmcp, kraant, greenearth, blueoasis, Lashe, Andy30tx from dday: Citizen punctures Bush bubble, says Bush should be “ashamed” of his policies

from MrSandman: Give `em hell, Harry (respectfully, of course)

But i love the pic comparison here. I saw this on CNN just few minutes ago. It was great!

-7.00,-7.74 “He is a bad version of us! No more money for him.”

by subtropolis on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:15:50 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

do you mean… (0+ / 0-) Recommended by:blueoasis CNN showed the painting? That would be very cool…

“If only lies left semen stains.” - Jon Stewart

by Two Types of Fruit on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:04:34 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

no, just Harry (n/t) (0 / 0)

-7.00,-7.74 “He is a bad version of us! No more money for him.”

by subtropolis on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:00:44 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

AP’s story (6+ / 0-) Recommended by:Carnacki, joynow, L0kI, ybruti, kraant, BB10 link here

“So long as we have enough people in this country willing to fight for their rights, we’ll be called a democracy.” ~Roger Baldwin

by spyral on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:18:04 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Whoa…Another quote from the article (43+ / 0-) Recommended by:arthur, Kimberley, RichM, tmo, lapin, TealVeal, bramish, OLinda, rhubarb, Carnacki, maggiemae, joynow, L0kI, arkdem, CocoaLove, jhwygirl, averybird, Caldonia, Da Buddy, HK, vacantlook, joanneleon, Rick Oliver, panicbean, station wagon, Brooke In Seattle, owlbear1, jfadden, Shotput8, willers, lgmcp, FrankFrink, kraant, turning blue, TheBlaz, carolita, greenearth, blueoasis, nogamez, Lashe, dfisk, BB10, kurt Mr. Taylor:

“And I would hope from time to time that you have the humility and grace to be ashamed of yourself.”

“So long as we have enough people in this country willing to fight for their rights, we’ll be called a democracy.” ~Roger Baldwin

by spyral on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:22:26 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Have you ever noticed (20+ / 0-) Recommended by:spyral, Kimberly Stone, Carnacki, Helena Handbag, peraspera, L0kI, Caldonia, Needa Bigger Pretzel, vacantlook, joanneleon, Brooke In Seattle, owlbear1, jfadden, nhwriter, Shotput8, Drocket, Paper Cup, RiaD, greenearth, Lashe That people to whom it’s said “You should be ashamed…” NEVER ARE.

If they had that sort of a conscience, their behavior would’ve been quite different.

by dinazina on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:04:56 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

A sociopaths has no conception of shame (31+ / 0-) Recommended by:rgilly, TealVeal, TrueBlueMajority, dinazina, Creosote, maggiemae, AMcG826, biscobosco, L0kI, PeteZerria, arkdem, CocoaLove, modchick65, Caldonia, Needa Bigger Pretzel, Brooke In Seattle, mattwynn, owlbear1, jfadden, nhwriter, Shotput8, FindingMyVoice, willers, YukonJack, Paper Cup, Mehitabel9, Amanda in NC, iheartbooks, carolita, blueoasis, nogamez n/t

You can lock up a mouse or a man but you can’t lock up an idea - Tommy Douglas

by FrankFrink on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:07:39 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Ding ding ding ding ding (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:Caldonia, nhwriter, FrankFrink Bingo!

by Mehitabel9 on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 02:23:17 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

Nice comparison of pictures (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:Mz Kleen, kraant I think Rockwell’s “Freedom of Speech” was from his “Four Freedoms” series, which paralleled FDR’s speech about the freedoms.

by Pola Halloween on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:10:55 PM PDT

Excellent catch! (5+ / 0-) Recommended by:arthur, Caldonia, lilyvaldem, kraant, nogamez The comparisons would remind casual observers of who people like us are, we love our country and we’re the embodiment of a slew of others who came before us.

Bringing the labor movement back to its roots

by PaulVA on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:11:57 PM PDT

They quite literally (63+ / 0-) Recommended by:arthur, RichM, lapin, Kimberly Stone, RunawayRose, Shockwave, bramish, rhubarb, Carnacki, bumblebums, Creosote, maggiemae, Thistime, km4, JohnInWestland, guyute16, SLJ, L0kI, retLT, Fe, ethans mom, lilnubber, arkdem, antirove, georgia10, hhex65, smash, Caldonia, homo neurotic, BWasikIUgrad, Ayanora, WV Democrat, Needa Bigger Pretzel, edavis, DrewDown, kd texan, Timroff, TexH, Rick Oliver, subtropolis, irate, saucy monkey, station wagon, viral, Brooke In Seattle, owlbear1, jfadden, Pam from Calif, Omen, Shotput8, kitchen table activist, willers, Mehitabel9, occams hatchet, FrankFrink, kraant, iheartbooks, Ellicatt, greenearth, blueoasis, nogamez, Lashe, keggers laughed in the face of an informed and concerned citizen.

How revolting.

by Karmafish on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:12:05 PM PDT

a citizen voices his concerns (71+ / 0-) Recommended by:arthur, lapin, Kimberly Stone, RunawayRose, Maryscott OConnor, Shockwave, bramish, rhubarb, Carnacki, bumblebums, Creosote, maggiemae, km4, joynow, guyute16, peeder, L0kI, Fe, ethans mom, lilnubber, arkdem, CocoaLove, SairaLV, smash, Caldonia, homo neurotic, BWasikIUgrad, Ayanora, ybruti, WV Democrat, Silverbird, Needa Bigger Pretzel, edavis, DrewDown, kd texan, Timroff, TexH, joanneleon, Rick Oliver, subtropolis, saucy monkey, station wagon, viral, Brooke In Seattle, nameblock, owlbear1, jfadden, Pam from Calif, Karmafish, jorndorff, Omen, Shotput8, kitchen table activist, willers, Mehitabel9, lgmcp, RiaD, occams hatchet, FrankFrink, lilyvaldem, kraant, iheartbooks, Ellicatt, TheBlaz, carolita, greenearth, blueoasis, nogamez, Lashe, The Wife of Bath, dfisk in an articulate, reasonable manner.

The President makes a joke about him.

That’s revolting.

by georgia10 on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:14:17 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

But what baffles me is that Bush actually (8+ / 0-) Recommended by:Kimberly Stone, Carnacki, Karmafish, nhwriter, kraant, Lashe, FireCrow, The Wife of Bath responded in a relatively coherent and articulate (for him) manner. WHY? HOW?

I mean, obviously the gentler, kinder pose is a totally calculated campaign to scotch the buzz over their exclusive use of handpicked audiences. But for him to be able to fulfull that pose? With hardly any of the time-lag hemming-and-hawing as he waits for the time-lag from that wireless mike that makes “the bulge” under the suit?? I don’t understand.

Are they adjusting his meds? I hear everyone acts smarter on controlled doses of amphetamines. But if that was gonna work, why didn’t they try it back at debate time, or anytime since? Or is truly the case that “freedom’s just another word for nothin’ left to lose”? Can he actually almost function now that he’s a lame duck and it doesn’t matter anyway?

Really, he sounded almost like a competent and poised public speaker. Instead of the pathetic chimperor we know him to be. Disturbing.

The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function — Edward Teller.

by lgmcp on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:30:39 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

he had no choice. (8+ / 0-) Recommended by:Carnacki, Creosote, Brooke In Seattle, nhwriter, turning blue, blueoasis, nogamez, Lashe imagine the backlash if he’d had the goons haul Taylor away. Taylor’s actions couldn’t even be construed as protesting as his conduct was impeccable.

by baccaruda on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 01:32:58 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

By Stupid Selfish Liberal

April 7, 2006 11:40 AM | Link to this

Thank you Howard Kurtz by DaveV Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:01:24 AM PDT We have to give Howie his due. Media Notes is right on the money this morning. Kurtz does an excellent job juxtaposing yesterday’s revelation that Scooter Libby claims he was authorized to leak the NIE with Bush’s multiple public statements that he wanted to find and fire the leaker.

… Bush is probably safe from having to fire himself, despite Scooter Libby’s accusation yesterday that the president, through Dick Cheney, had authorized him to feed classified CIA data to Judy Miller. The reason: It’s legal for the president to declassify something that otherwise would remain super-secret.

Politically, it’s a mess.

The president finds it acceptable to authorize the sharing of government secrets with a New York Times reporter when it’s advantageous to the administration? And has the vice president’s chief of staff carry it out? What else don’t we know about this case?

More Kurtzian goodness below the fold…

DaveV’s diary :: :: Kurtz quotes our own Georgia10:

Georgia10 at Kos says someone ain’t leveling here:

“Did the President personally authorize the selected release of classified information meant to manipulate public opinion about Iraq? Or did Cheney lie? If Cheney corroborates Scooter Libby’s story, he implicates the President. If he denies it, he calls his former Chief of Staff a liar.

and gets in a tasty morsel of snark, pre-empting the latest Republican talking point by taking blogger Austin Bay to task.

Blogger Austin Bay begs to differ:

“The sudden press flap over Scooter Libby’s alleged ‘revelation’ that President Bush declassified intelligence information related to Iraq is silly but all too predictable.

[…]

The president wants to control the dissemination of information and has made that clear. The information released today said that what Libby leaked as declassified and authorized — but try getting that clear on a T.V. squawk show where the game is gotcha.”

So there’s no hypocrisy because Bush’s leaks are authorized and the others are unauthorized? C’mon.

Seems to me Bush’s defenders are all going legalistic on us. [Kurtz’ comment in bold.]

Kurtz even pulls out the “imagine if Bill Clinton did this” argument:

National Review’s Byron York :

“I confess to being a little baffled by the excitement… . As for leaking portions of the National Intelligence Estimate, yes, it was classified, although it would later be declassified. But it should be remembered that when the president decides to make something public, then it can be made public.”

That’s right, and if we had learned that Bill Clinton had leaked CIA data to Sidney Blumenthal at the New Yorker to justify the war in Bosnia, I’m sure conservatives would have yawned and said the prez was merely exercising his legal powers. [Kurtz’ comment in bold.]

With good reason, we’ve given Kurtz hell for being a bit too sympathetic with the Republican spin. But even he sees this as ridiculous. My interpretation — the press is finally going to go for the proverbial jugular.

Poll If Kurtz is All Over This… then it’s time to get the popcorn, cuz it’s all over for Bush then it’s just another day in the neighborhood then it’s time to get a tasty slice of pie

Votes: 66

Results :: Other Polls

Tags: george w. bush, valerie plame, scooter libby, leak (all tags)

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Let’s keep this issue front and center! (9+ / 0-) Recommended by:dabize, NYC Sophia, jamfan, moggie12, Mikecan1978, SheriffBart, kraant, le sequoit, Glorfindel

by DaveV on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:01:28 AM PDT

Howie Won’t Find Many Fans Here But… (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:DaveV, citizenx, SheriffBart …we have to remember that “Amens” from the choir haven’t won us many elections the past 6 years. When apologists like Kurtz see the light that means millions of down-the-middle Americans who would never have read DKos are seeing the light and they have votes. I wonder what kind of emails Howie is getting from his buddies at PowerLine this morning.

by neoeconomist on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:13:59 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

That’s why I see this as an indicator (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:moggie12, SheriffBart of a tipping point (see post below in response to inclusiveheart). If they’ve lost Howie Kurtz, they’ve lost red America.

by DaveV on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:15:29 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

2 years ago (0 / 0) I’d have agreed with you.

I wrote any NUMBER of diaries at the time explaining how America was undergoing a “paradigm shift” or “Zeitgeist shift” with respect to Bush. Search the Diary archives for these terms if you want to see my sad record of optimism on the subject.

Every time something like this happens, I still expect the press to turn on an unpopular president, and the “frame” with which Bush is viewed to change from “Bush is a good guy” to “Bush is an untrustworthy, lying idiot”, the avalanche of self-reinforcing changes never seems to come.

It always gets forgotten in a sea of Natalee Holloway stories.

I hope you’re right this time, but ……..

The Perfect is the Enemy of the Better

by dabize on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:24:27 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

I understand being skeptical (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:dabize, moggie12, le sequoit but this one seems different to me somehow. The blatancy with which Bush has been caught lying … repeatedly. It’s too much to ignore. The speed with which this one rose to the top of the major papers and wires, to me, is an indicator that things are changing. The journos smell blood, and they all want to be the first shark to the kill.

by DaveV on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:28:13 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Jesus, I hope you’re right (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:moggie12 I’ve thought that SO MANY were special.

I was SURE that the Plame affair would sink him, because it was an obvious assault on our most precious national security assets (undercover agents involved in nuclear proliferation).

It still may.

The journos have changed their tone a bit, but they still know who pays their salaries.

Remember the guy at ABC who was just fired for sending anti Bush e-mails.

I still believe in the “tipping point” (or Zeitgeist frame shift) idea. It WILL come.

I’m just not sure when it’s going to arrive any more.

The Perfect is the Enemy of the Better

by dabize on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:47:02 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

I know what you mean (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:dabize, DaveV I try not to get my hopes up anymore because they’ve been dashed so many times before. I do, however, think we’ve had the “tipping point”: It was Katrina. Even the dopiest American could see the Bush guys were completely incompetent and lying about it. The big question to me is whether the Democrats can achieve their own “tipping point”, i.e., widespread belief that the Dems can do a better job at running the country. The polls seem to say this has occurred. I’m keeping my fingers crossed that events over the next few months (the inevitable meltdown in Iraq, Libby accusations, etc.) will cement this belief. A major sign that this has occured will be when a-holes like Kurtz stop parroting GOP talking points (e.g., crap like “yes, but the Democrats don’t have a plan). I agree with the poster that Kurtz’s piece today is significant. His snarky tone seems to be a shift away from his previous boot-licking tone.

by moggie12 on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:05:03 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

I hope you’re right (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:DaveV but I don’t see it. Kurtz is the leading proponent of “balance” journalism. He’ll say this today, tomorrow it will be back to something that someone else said and how assrocket was right after all. Kurtz is not a barometer of anything let alone the tenor of journalism. He puts out conservative thought in the guise of questions so he can’t be accused of bias. Then he’ll put out the craziest opinion that he can find so he comes out looking “balanced and fair”. He’ll do the same thing the next time with the other side. He’s not any kind of barometer of the press.

“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness.” Mark Twain

by dougymi on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:05:18 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

That’s a reasonable point… (0 / 0) but I hope you’re wrong.

by DaveV on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:34:38 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

He’s still a whore (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:ETinKC, DaveV And will go back to mouthing GOP talking points as soon as he feels it’s safe to do so.

We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. Aesop (620 - 560 BC)

by AWhitneyBrown on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:05:11 AM PDT

Then let’s make sure it’s not safe (0 / 0) to do so. If Bush was getting radioactive, then now I think he’s gone supercritical. Time for a meltdown.

by DaveV on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:06:27 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

The Press won’t really go after Bush (4+ / 0-) Recommended by:DaveV, oortdust, citizenx, SheriffBart until they lose their fear of him.

I honestly believe that’s what has been holding alot of them back. Fear of losing access to the right people, being shunned and not being able to do their job because of it.

It’s what Bush thrives on. FEAR.

by MsLibrarian on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:06:22 AM PDT

That guy Harry Taylor yesterday (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:SheriffBart, le sequoit showed a hell of a lot of courage. Maybe a journo somewhere will be inspired by that.

by DaveV on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:07:44 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

There are a few out there .. (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:DaveV who’ve challenged this administration, but not with the determination that is required to do any actual good.

by MsLibrarian on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:10:00 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Helen Thomas.. (0 / 0) is pretty damn determined. But she’s the only one for now.

George W. Bush entered the oval office with no experience in foriegn diplomacy. He will leave the same way.

by SheriffBart on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:17:36 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Soon, it will become fashionable (0 / 0) then everyone will be doing it. Helen Thomas was way out front, even though they moved her to the back of the room.

by DaveV on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:21:03 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

What they did to Thomas (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:citizenx early on, giving away her seat, was a warning to the press. They listened.

Gregory, with NBC hasn’t been bad either. Yet he still will spin from time to time.

by MsLibrarian on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:27:09 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Yes, but their power is waning… (0 / 0) Even if they escape this one, it’s a damaged and time-limited presidency. Their power over the press is rapidly expiring. Most journalists are thinking about how they’re going to ingratiate themselves to the next set of powers-that-be. All indications is that those powers will be Democrats.

by DaveV on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:29:50 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

As was (0 / 0) again, Feingold.

Oh, the inanity!

by le sequoit on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:28:16 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Yup. Feingold is a stud. (0 / 0) He’s always out in front of the major issues. Another indicator, IMO, that the tipping point has been reached.

by DaveV on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:30:34 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Also, press hates being obviously lied to. (0 / 0) They can stand being lied to, if it can’t be proven. When it’s this obvious, it makes the press look like total chumps. They hate that. The next press gaggle is going to be extremely ugly.

by DaveV on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:11:49 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

It’s good for Howie the Whore (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:DaveV, citizenx, SheriffBart but lets not forget that he’s essentially doing what the Bushie talking points must be telling him to do here - ASSUMING that Bush has the legal right to declassify at whim, on the spot, for any reason whatever (however disreputable and inimical to the national interest).

I don’t see how this can be assumed.

However, I see your point. Howie is not known for chiding wingnut bloggers for anything at all, let alone hypocrisy.

It’s a step forward.

The Perfect is the Enemy of the Better

by dabize on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:06:50 AM PDT

I’ll take it for now. (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:dabize, SheriffBart It’s a beginning, and to me a sign that even the right-leaning press is going to have to flush Bush on this one.

by DaveV on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:09:01 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Don’t forget that given Bush’s numbers (5+ / 0-) Recommended by:wozzle, DaveV, oortdust, citizenx, SheriffBart the GOP are starting to run as fast as they can away from Bush - the thing is when this sort of thing happens the strategy is to minimize dammage to the party by focusing the public on one or two “bad guys” even though every last one of them has been complicit in this cabal all along.

We need to make sure that Bush as a icon continues to represent his entire party and is never successfully distanced from them.

by inclusiveheart on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:10:35 AM PDT

A tipping point? (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:moggie12 Chaos theory tells us that certain processes do not respond “continuously” to stimuli. In my opinion, there will come a critical moment when Repubs running for office will realize that continued support of the President’s illegal, thuggish behavior is not simply “dangerous” — but downright deadly. At that moment, the rats will start to leave the sinking ship.

I think that moment arrived yesterday.

by DaveV on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:14:31 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

In other words, they are no (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:inclusiveheart, moggie12 longer simply enabling, they are fast becoming “aiding and abetting”. Sweet.

“If you get an outfit, you can be a cowboy, too…” : The Smothers Brothers.

by wozzle on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:19:57 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

This has to be hung on each and every one (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:moggie12 of their necks each and every day until they support a full Congressional investigation with subpoena powers.

by DaveV on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:22:51 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Screw the ‘until’ they should be toast. (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:DaveV, moggie12 There is no ressurection possible for these people. They are dishonest to the core and they ALL need to go. A vote for an investigation - which would be a sham - can’t save these people they are too corrupt to be trusted in our government. They must be replaced with new people.

by inclusiveheart on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:34:13 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

100% correct… (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:inclusiveheart, moggie12 Replacing them with new (Democratic) people will give us the oversight and investigation that is so sorely needed.

by DaveV on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:36:44 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

They have always been aiding and abetting (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:DaveV, moggie12 and that is something we should put front and center. What do you think Senators Pat Roberts and Olympia Snowe have been doing over there at the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence when they seek to change the FISA law rather than investigate the President for what is clearly an illegal program secretly conducted by the President?

What do you think this Congress has done every time they have declined to stop this President when he has chosen to out himself above the law? That is aiding and abetting AND it is blatantly ignoring their own Congressional oathes of office.

It is the same thing with Tom DeLay. Tom DeLay could NEVER have run his racket in the House if he had not had willing participants. If there had been a significant number of Republican Congressmen who had said “No I will not participate in quid pro quo, money laundering operations and pork barrel politics.” DeLay would have been just another nobody on the Hill who probably would have gotten himself turned in if there had been a single member on the GOP side who had an ounce of honesty in his or her body. It is simply not possible for a criminal like DeLay to operate in a void without a lot of participation from his fellow Congressmen and accomplish all that he did.

Never let this GOP cabal distance themselves from one another - each one is as bad as the next.

by inclusiveheart on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:31:54 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

This is the essence of ‘culture of corruption’ (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:moggie12 There is stink everywhere — that’s why it’s time to clean House.

by DaveV on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:34:29 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

More like the ‘center of corruption’ (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:DaveV, moggie12 right smack in the heart of the Grand Old Party…

by inclusiveheart on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:35:57 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

B****** (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:bumblebums, DaveV, oortdust That’s right, and if we had learned that Bill Clinton had leaked CIA data to Sidney Blumenthal at the New Yorker to justify the war in Bosnia, I’m sure conservatives would have yawned and said the prez was merely exercising his legal powers.

if Clinton had done the same conservatives would have called for and initiated a FULL investigation and demanded he step down (instead of spreading rumors he was “wagging the dog”.)

Domestic Violence Hotline 1-800-799-SAFE (7233) 1-800-787-3224 (TTY)

by Sassy on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:15:34 AM PDT

Each of us… (0+ / 0-) Recommended by:DaveV …needs to be more assertive in contacting those reporters that are too lazy to fact-check administration spin. Howard Kurtz isn’t a born-again truth-teller, this is just common sense—it would be beyond the pale for any Beltway Journalist to argue that Bush’s authorization was justified. Does Howard Kurtz or any other ‘seen it all’ beltway journalist now deserve special credit for simply stating the obvious?

Let’s not be satisfied with this. Would the wingnuts stop at this?

by ThreeT on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:22:35 AM PDT

Yes. Because if we don’t give him credit (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:moggie12 then others won’t follow. We have to play our part too in order to turn the journalistic tide.

by DaveV on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:23:52 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

There ain’t no semideclassified (0 / 0) A woman went to jail for refusing to disclose a source because the court had no reason in hell to hold this material was effectively declassified by it’s transmittal to her in the first place.

No, let me start agian …

Oh, the inanity!

by le sequoit on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:24:22 AM PDT

Infinite regress… (0 / 0) It’s enough to make almost anyone’s head spin.

The self-referential contradictions remind me of the proof that aristotelian logic is not complete:

Evaluate this statement:

“This statement is false.”

by DaveV on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:32:18 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Spanking straightened Howie? (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:DaveV Maybe the verbal spanking Howard Kurtz got from Lou Dobbs last week about the ‘fair and balanced’ in journalism being a myth woke Howie up.

Hopefully he won’t go back to sleep in the next 3 years.

-7.38, -5.74 This is your world. These are your people. You can live for yourself today, or help build tomorrow for everyone.

by DisNoir36 on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:26:17 AM PDT

From Lou Dobbs, no less. n/t (0 / 0)

by DaveV on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:33:11 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Nothing wrong with Lou (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:DaveV aside from his xenophobic stances that is.

He really laid into Howie. Even told him that he was a better journalist than that.

I like Lou. I really think he’s so overbearing on the broken borders because he really wants a solution that works for all, or at least the rest of us who aren’t big corporate execs. His main focus is closing the borders first and then dealing with the people (illegals) here in a fair way. He feels that guest worker status is another way of saying slave labor at cheap wages. I think he’s over the top and I differ with him on alot of minor details but it’s alot better than differing on one or two big details. Minor details can get worked out. He comes across as a xenophopic bigot but his ideas really aren’t if you examine them and listen to him enough.

-7.38, -5.74 This is your world. These are your people. You can live for yourself today, or help build tomorrow for everyone.

by DisNoir36 on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:43:54 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Wow, I missed that (0 / 0) What was Dobbs laying into Kurtz for? Something specific to the immigration story or was he just generally bashing press treatment of events?

by moggie12 on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:09:57 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

interesting (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:DaveV That’s right, and if we had learned that Bill Clinton had leaked CIA data to Sidney Blumenthal at the New Yorker to justify the war in Bosnia, I’m sure conservatives would have yawned and said the prez was merely exercising his legal powers.

Was listening to C-Span’s Washington Journal on the way to class this morning. One of the callers announced that nothing…repeat nothing would’ve happened if Clinton had done something similar.

My jaw hit the floor. Who is he kidding?!?

“Computer. End holographic program…Computer? Computer?”

by kredwyn on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:18:47 AM PDT

Permalink | 42 comments

By Mark

April 7, 2006 11:41 AM | Link to this

Blacks like McKinney are the reason racism still thrives. Typical democrat. When they screw up, they point the finger elsewhere. This racist fool should be arrested for assaulting a police officer. If it were you or me, we’d be in jail, PRONTO!

Only a racist cries racism.

By getalife

April 7, 2006 11:41 AM | Link to this

“In my lifetime, I have never felt more ashamed of my leadership in Washington,” Taylor told the president. “And I would hope from time to time that you have the humility and grace to be ashamed of yourself.”

By RW- (the original)

April 7, 2006 11:41 AM | Link to this

It looks as if Andy has finally gone off the deep end, once and for all. We all knew he was heading that way. It’s great to be here to finally see it happen. He’s always had very little control, like a monkey in a cage throwing feces, but it looks as if he’s now spasming, drooling on himself, and sitting in a puddle of urine. Beautiful.

By Dusty

April 7, 2006 11:47 AM | Link to this

Would somebody please give BushScandals his sandals and let him go to the beach with Wooley bear?

This is a blog, not the DNC bulletin board. If you can’t express an opinion in your own words or give us a link, bore your own buddies with your trash. Don’t drag it here and dump on us.

By Stupid Selfish Liberal

April 7, 2006 11:50 AM | Link to this

Scratching the Itch by wmtriallawyer Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:00:55 AM PDT Back when I was fresh out of college and hitting the campaign trail, I had the opportunity to go to a campaign training school for a week before heading out into the world to help elect Democrats.

In the first lecture, a seasoned campaign vet said that the number rule to remember in politics is this:

All candidates are crazy.

The vet reasoned they HAVE to be to want to run for office, to subject themselves and their family to all the crap that comes with running. Nevertheless, he said, they did it, because most of them believed in making things better.

wmtriallawyer’s diary :: :: Well, I’ve always toyed with the idea of running for office myself…but I’m not crazy. (My wife would disagree, but, I digress…) Odd, perhaps. But not certifiable.

Fortunately, I never had to approach the question head on until recently. VERY recently. The chair of our county Democrat commitee recently approached me and asked me if I was interested in running for the State House.

Now, keep in mind, I had just met this person. And I’ve been involved in the local party the cosmic equivalent of two seconds. But, I live in a marginally Republican district, and the Ds don’t have a warm body on the ballot yet. They want one.

I’m committed time-wise to strengthening the local party organization, particularly through my young Dems group. But run for office??? Can’t say it hasn’t crossed my mind, but more likely it would be down the road, when I learn the ins and outs the local apparatus, make some connections, actually, you know, LEARN what everybody in my county and state does, what their roles are, etc.

Anyway, it’s hard. I want to be able to vote for a Democrat for my state House in my district…a district, I think, can be won be the right candidate under the right circumstances. I happen to think this year is the right circumstances, given the national climate.

But I don’t think I’m the guy. Not yet. My trepidation occurs for several reasons: the grimace on my wife’s face of having to be a “politician’s wife”, the time needed to mount the race, the lack of a desire to be a sacrificial lamb for the party. But the main one, I think, has to do with what I heard last night regarding the amount of money one needed to raise for a successful race for the State House. Let’s just say it’s more money than my wife and I make in terms of gross income…and we make low six figures.

So I’ve got this itch…and I’m trying not to scratch it. I have no idea whether I’d be a good politician — or better yet a bad politician but a good statesman — but it intrigues. Just not enough to jump in yet.

What I want to know is, how many Kossacks have got the itch? And what would you do in my situation?

Poll Have you got the itch? Yes, and I’m scratching it Yes, but I’m putting Calomine lotion on it No way…I’m not crazy

Votes: 23

Results :: Other Polls

Tags: politics, running for office, Democrats (all tags)

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That Calomine lotion… (9+ / 0-) Recommended by:wozzle, polecat, wanderindiana, polydactyl, Alegre, ord avg guy, desordre remplir, kraant, think blue boy, it’s good stuff. Sooooothing. Ahhhh.

If I can’t dance, it’s not my revolution.

by wmtriallawyer on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:00:58 AM PDT

Have a Serious Heart to Heart with Your Wife (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:wmtriallawyer, kraant about this. It’s as much her decision as yours.

State House eh? It would take a lot of $$, time and all - and your friends will probably start avoiding you after you’ve hit them up for $ for the 4th time in a week. And they’d dig into your personal lives big-time. No problem if you’ve no skelatons in your closets.

Having said that - I think you should go for it. It sounds like you’d like to serve in some capacity some day and this would be a great way to get some name recognition in your area. And as others have pointed out - it would force the R in your community to spend some more $$ in his or her effort to get elected.

And anything that drains the GOP coffers has got to be a mighty good thing.

I was tossing around the notion of running for the local school board some day, but I’m not sure I’d want to put my family through all the digging in to our personal lives. Maybe some day.

Bloggin’ with a bar of soap and my car window IMPEACH -8.75 / -6.10

by Alegre on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:51:49 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Digging around (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant Yeah, that’s a biggie. I don’t have anything horrible in my past… .some credit issues — like everyone else — that I’ve taken care of. I’m nervous about putting my identity on display HERE, amongst friends…how would I feel about it in the klieg lights of a campaign (even at the State House level)?

Would be kind of fun for them to find my blog posts, though…heh-heh.

I guess I’m just more interested in rebuilding my party now than I am running for office.

If I can’t dance, it’s not my revolution.

by wmtriallawyer on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:57:25 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Honestly? (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant Your run for office would go a long way toward re-building the party in your area. Think of the contacts you could make, the experience you’d gain, and the advice you could give to future candidates.

Bloggin’ with a bar of soap and my car window IMPEACH -8.75 / -6.10

by Alegre on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:00:16 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

But… (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant I also made a commitment to my group of Young Dems in my area…and running for office would take me wholly away from that commitment, I fear.

If I can’t dance, it’s not my revolution.

by wmtriallawyer on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:01:30 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Good Point (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant Why not make them part of your decision making process. Who knows? They may be behind your run for office. They may be chomping at the bit to help even.

Bloggin’ with a bar of soap and my car window IMPEACH -8.75 / -6.10

by Alegre on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:02:40 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Your Sig Line (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant says it all. It may be time to get out on the floor and dance like nobody’s watching…

Great quote btw.

Bloggin’ with a bar of soap and my car window IMPEACH -8.75 / -6.10

by Alegre on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:01:47 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Run anyway (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:polecat Even if you don’t spend much time doing it, it’ll force your opponent to spend time and money running against you instead of having a clear run and being able to send money off to support other repub candidates.

Don’t be a f***! HTH k thnx

by kraant on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:06:37 AM PDT

Yes, Run Anyways (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant You have to start somewhere.

I’ll throw in $100 if you run.

by eafredel on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:13:19 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

well, (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant I would consider it for next round. You really do have to take your family into consideration. This will be a big step to take, will have a huge impact on your family. Form an exploratory committee for 2008!

“Why can’t you and the idea of separation of powers just hug it out, b***?” Wonkette

by Hollywood Liberal on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:17:04 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Mighty generous of you (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant And thanks for that.

If I can’t dance, it’s not my revolution.

by wmtriallawyer on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:19:21 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

RUN AWAY (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant When I first saw this post, I thought it said “RUN AWAY!”

Very fast.

Happy little moron, lucky little man. I wish I was a moron, my God, perhaps I am! — Spike Milligan

by polecat on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:15:18 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

‘Did you hear something?’ (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:Jerome a Paris, kraant I heard a knocking…it sounded like oppurtunity.

If Liberals hated America, we’d vote Republican.

by ord avg guy on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:10:46 AM PDT

I had the itch (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:wmtriallawyer, kraant I had the itch for campaign managing, and to be a candidate, so I went and did and Emily’s List candidate’s training, among other things, to investigate. Actually talked to some electeds about it, including Dick Durbin!! Also campaign managed a city council race. It was good, learned a lot from both, and also learned I don’t ever want to run for office. Not my bag, baby, and while in the training they said that people who are concerned about having a flawless past are usually over-reacting, I think mine is just a little too weird to run for office. It adds up to just too much bizarreness. And I don’t want to live my life being ultra careful about how I spend my time, what I say online, who I hang out with, etc etc.

Also, I think it’s more appropriate for me to spend my energy elsewhere doing other kinds of things to make a difference.

I would love campaign managing and I think I’m really good at it, but there’s too many “consultants” out there, too much competition, I’m too old to start out, and it’s too seasonal/itinerant and doesn’t pay enough at this stage in my life, and the hours are killer. I’m keeping it as a hobby, although right now I’m not even interested in local races. If so moved, however…..ya never know.

“Why can’t you and the idea of separation of powers just hug it out, b***?” Wonkette

by Hollywood Liberal on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:15:40 AM PDT

Greatness calls (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:Jerome a Paris, VexingEyes, kraant …you should answer. Our country needs people like you to run—intelligent, educated people who care passionately about the overall good, uncorrupted by a greedy personal agenda. Easy for me to say, I know. My prayers are with you as you consider this decision.

by desordre remplir on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:18:08 AM PDT

When I live in Media Penna (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:wmtriallawyer, kraant I considered it twice. After helping the Dems take over the local boro government, I was asked if I wanted to run for tax collector. I considered it and then realize it was the one office for which I could not run - I was the only one in my company who lived in Media, and under state law they therefore did not have to withhold the 1/2% payroll tax. In theory we were supposed to file quarterly, but the money was so small I always just paid it at the end of the year. I was sure that would come out in a campaign for that office!!!

I also considered a run for the state legislature. The incumbent, a republican leader, was making noises about retiring. While the District was Republican, it was not so heavily so that in a open contest a dem couldn’t win. And because of non-political reasons I knew well and was like by most of the Greeks who owned the pizza parlors and a lot of the diners, and several said they’d be happy to promote me, even though they themselves were nominally Republicans.

But the incumbent decided to run for another term, then I decided to move to the DC area.

I have not had the itch since, if for no other reason than in Arlington the number of people getting their tickets stamped to run for office is so great that one usually has to put in many years of service before one has a meaningful shot. besides, I love teaching school and jumping in and out of political activity as my time allows.

i was just asked to run for VP of my neighborhood association. Since I have not been that active in the association and my schedule is very heavy right now, for this cycle I have instead agreed to serve as a delegate to the country-wde assembly of community associations — which coincidentally entitles me to ask a question at any of the assembly’s candidate forums.

I have twice served as an officer of professional associations, and have served in local, state and elective offices of a religious organization. My itch has been scratched enough.

Those who can, do. Those who can do more, TEACH!

by teacherken on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:27:11 AM PDT

If you’re going to be a sacrificial lamb anyway (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:VexingEyes, polydactyl, kraant Run your way. I live in Florida, and when Bob Graham was running his first time out, he traveled the state doing odd jobs to get a feel for what everyone else does. If you run, be creative in your campaign. Instead of glitzy ads, do them all yourself. Say what you think, not what some overpriced campaign consultant says. Don’t run your campaign as dueling press conferences. Go after your opponent. Attend his press conferences. If he tries to throw you out, make sure everyone knows he will not engage you about the issues in your district. Above all, stay focused on local issues. Let your opponent make the first move when it comes to national issues, and then acknowledge that it is a national issue first before responding. Even if you don’t win, you might not need to raise so much money. Also, you’ve got a built in fund raiser here at DKOS, so put it to good use.

Do Pavlov’s dogs chase Schroedinger’s cat?

by corwin on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:28:44 AM PDT

You should run… (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant Which district?

“You have your thoughts and I have mine. This is the fact and you can’t change it even if you kill me.”— Ba Jin

by Robb Black on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:37:37 AM PDT

I can only say… (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:VexingEyes, kraant That, mate, it you feel the call, and your family supports you, go for it. You see, in the most idealist sense (and yes, I know you are an attorney) this is a government not only by the people and of the people, but its elected leaders are those of the people and for the people. It is not reserved for some elite group, though many have taken it that way, enabled by either acquiesence or subservience to falsehoods.

Obviously, government as it esists now, particularly at the federal level, only considers (during the GBW era) the people to be a nuisance. The people (in their view) comprise an inconsequential and ignorant mass, and certainly not a body that deserves answers. The fact is, the people are an awakening mass, and as such, both demands and deserves answers at all levels.

The family question is not an easy one, but if they support you, well then, I do too!

Life is not a ‘dress rehearsal’!

by wgard on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:43:48 AM PDT

If You Won’t Do It (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:Catte Nappe, kraant Please help find someone who will. Personally I’ve always thought it would be much cooler to be Merlin rather than Arthur, that might be your role.

9/11 + 4 Years = Katrina… Conservatism Kills.

by NewDirection on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:22:33 AM PDT

Consider also what would happen next (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:Catte Nappe, kraant if you won. State legislators spend several months a year in session. They also attend “obligatory” but unpaid functions year-round - the Chamber of Commerce invites you to speak, the county planning committee wants to honor you, there’s a groundbreaking for the community college. Plus, to be effective, state reps must stay on top of the political scene 365 days a year.

Do you live in your state capitol? If not, how long is the drive? Where would you stay when you’re in session? What would your employer say about your time away from work? Would you still get paid your full salary? What kind of stipend do legislators get in your state? Do you like to sleep? Do things with your family?

My husband gave serious thought to running against the idiot who represents our district. These questions brought him up short. We know a state legislator and he’s the hardest-working person I know. It’s a huge commitment.

I’m not saying don’t do it. But running for office isn’t an end of its own, and when I hear people pushing others to “go for it, what have you got to lose!” I wonder if they’ve thought about these things.

by el dorado gal on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:31:22 AM PDT

echo (0 / 0) I want to echo an earlier comment that you do not have to buy into the conventional wisdom of raising tons of money and doing it the standard, consultant driven way. There have been examples of members running and winning with shoestring budgets because they ran creative, imaginative campaigns. Since you are expecting to be a sacrificial lamb anyway, concentrate on making your opponent spend his or her money, not spending your own, Just by showing up at candidate forums and other free public events you will be at least getting your message out to more than would hear it otherwise, so I say don’t sweat the money, and if thats your biggest concern, then you should run. In fact make the scandalous amount of money normally required to win the seat one of your campaign issues. On the other hand, there is no doubt politics is a tough bus. and you have to consider you family. Sit down and thrash it out with your wife, if she’s behind it go ahead, the experience will teach you more about politics than anything else you could possibly do I’m sure, and will provide a sterling example for the young folks, and give them a chance for real world experience to boot. I quite frankly would never do it. I am much too much of a private, solitary person, and being a non-christian, (also non-jewish or muslim or any other affiliation), anit-drug war, long haired bumpkin I wouldn’t have a snowball’s chance anyway. Best of luck either way.

by fat old man on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:38:38 AM PDT

Permalink | 22 comments

By Stupid Selfish Liberal

April 7, 2006 11:52 AM | Link to this

Scratching the Itch by wmtriallawyer Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:00:55 AM PDT Back when I was fresh out of college and hitting the campaign trail, I had the opportunity to go to a campaign training school for a week before heading out into the world to help elect Democrats.

In the first lecture, a seasoned campaign vet said that the number rule to remember in politics is this:

All candidates are crazy.

The vet reasoned they HAVE to be to want to run for office, to subject themselves and their family to all the crap that comes with running. Nevertheless, he said, they did it, because most of them believed in making things better.

wmtriallawyer’s diary :: :: Well, I’ve always toyed with the idea of running for office myself…but I’m not crazy. (My wife would disagree, but, I digress…) Odd, perhaps. But not certifiable.

Fortunately, I never had to approach the question head on until recently. VERY recently. The chair of our county Democrat commitee recently approached me and asked me if I was interested in running for the State House.

Now, keep in mind, I had just met this person. And I’ve been involved in the local party the cosmic equivalent of two seconds. But, I live in a marginally Republican district, and the Ds don’t have a warm body on the ballot yet. They want one.

I’m committed time-wise to strengthening the local party organization, particularly through my young Dems group. But run for office??? Can’t say it hasn’t crossed my mind, but more likely it would be down the road, when I learn the ins and outs the local apparatus, make some connections, actually, you know, LEARN what everybody in my county and state does, what their roles are, etc.

Anyway, it’s hard. I want to be able to vote for a Democrat for my state House in my district…a district, I think, can be won be the right candidate under the right circumstances. I happen to think this year is the right circumstances, given the national climate.

But I don’t think I’m the guy. Not yet. My trepidation occurs for several reasons: the grimace on my wife’s face of having to be a “politician’s wife”, the time needed to mount the race, the lack of a desire to be a sacrificial lamb for the party. But the main one, I think, has to do with what I heard last night regarding the amount of money one needed to raise for a successful race for the State House. Let’s just say it’s more money than my wife and I make in terms of gross income…and we make low six figures.

So I’ve got this itch…and I’m trying not to scratch it. I have no idea whether I’d be a good politician — or better yet a bad politician but a good statesman — but it intrigues. Just not enough to jump in yet.

What I want to know is, how many Kossacks have got the itch? And what would you do in my situation?

Poll Have you got the itch? Yes, and I’m scratching it Yes, but I’m putting Calomine lotion on it No way…I’m not crazy

Votes: 23

Results :: Other Polls

Tags: politics, running for office, Democrats (all tags)

Permalink | 22 comments

Comments: Expand Shrink Hide (Always) | Indented Flat (Always)

Daily Kos Help

That Calomine lotion… (9+ / 0-) Recommended by:wozzle, polecat, wanderindiana, polydactyl, Alegre, ord avg guy, desordre remplir, kraant, think blue boy, it’s good stuff. Sooooothing. Ahhhh.

If I can’t dance, it’s not my revolution.

by wmtriallawyer on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:00:58 AM PDT

Have a Serious Heart to Heart with Your Wife (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:wmtriallawyer, kraant about this. It’s as much her decision as yours.

State House eh? It would take a lot of $$, time and all - and your friends will probably start avoiding you after you’ve hit them up for $ for the 4th time in a week. And they’d dig into your personal lives big-time. No problem if you’ve no skelatons in your closets.

Having said that - I think you should go for it. It sounds like you’d like to serve in some capacity some day and this would be a great way to get some name recognition in your area. And as others have pointed out - it would force the R in your community to spend some more $$ in his or her effort to get elected.

And anything that drains the GOP coffers has got to be a mighty good thing.

I was tossing around the notion of running for the local school board some day, but I’m not sure I’d want to put my family through all the digging in to our personal lives. Maybe some day.

Bloggin’ with a bar of soap and my car window IMPEACH -8.75 / -6.10

by Alegre on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:51:49 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Digging around (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant Yeah, that’s a biggie. I don’t have anything horrible in my past… .some credit issues — like everyone else — that I’ve taken care of. I’m nervous about putting my identity on display HERE, amongst friends…how would I feel about it in the klieg lights of a campaign (even at the State House level)?

Would be kind of fun for them to find my blog posts, though…heh-heh.

I guess I’m just more interested in rebuilding my party now than I am running for office.

If I can’t dance, it’s not my revolution.

by wmtriallawyer on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:57:25 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Honestly? (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant Your run for office would go a long way toward re-building the party in your area. Think of the contacts you could make, the experience you’d gain, and the advice you could give to future candidates.

Bloggin’ with a bar of soap and my car window IMPEACH -8.75 / -6.10

by Alegre on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:00:16 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

But… (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant I also made a commitment to my group of Young Dems in my area…and running for office would take me wholly away from that commitment, I fear.

If I can’t dance, it’s not my revolution.

by wmtriallawyer on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:01:30 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Good Point (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant Why not make them part of your decision making process. Who knows? They may be behind your run for office. They may be chomping at the bit to help even.

Bloggin’ with a bar of soap and my car window IMPEACH -8.75 / -6.10

by Alegre on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:02:40 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Your Sig Line (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant says it all. It may be time to get out on the floor and dance like nobody’s watching…

Great quote btw.

Bloggin’ with a bar of soap and my car window IMPEACH -8.75 / -6.10

by Alegre on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:01:47 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Run anyway (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:polecat Even if you don’t spend much time doing it, it’ll force your opponent to spend time and money running against you instead of having a clear run and being able to send money off to support other repub candidates.

Don’t be a f***! HTH k thnx

by kraant on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:06:37 AM PDT

Yes, Run Anyways (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant You have to start somewhere.

I’ll throw in $100 if you run.

by eafredel on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:13:19 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

well, (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant I would consider it for next round. You really do have to take your family into consideration. This will be a big step to take, will have a huge impact on your family. Form an exploratory committee for 2008!

“Why can’t you and the idea of separation of powers just hug it out, b***?” Wonkette

by Hollywood Liberal on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:17:04 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Mighty generous of you (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant And thanks for that.

If I can’t dance, it’s not my revolution.

by wmtriallawyer on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:19:21 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

RUN AWAY (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant When I first saw this post, I thought it said “RUN AWAY!”

Very fast.

Happy little moron, lucky little man. I wish I was a moron, my God, perhaps I am! — Spike Milligan

by polecat on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:15:18 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

‘Did you hear something?’ (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:Jerome a Paris, kraant I heard a knocking…it sounded like oppurtunity.

If Liberals hated America, we’d vote Republican.

by ord avg guy on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:10:46 AM PDT

I had the itch (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:wmtriallawyer, kraant I had the itch for campaign managing, and to be a candidate, so I went and did and Emily’s List candidate’s training, among other things, to investigate. Actually talked to some electeds about it, including Dick Durbin!! Also campaign managed a city council race. It was good, learned a lot from both, and also learned I don’t ever want to run for office. Not my bag, baby, and while in the training they said that people who are concerned about having a flawless past are usually over-reacting, I think mine is just a little too weird to run for office. It adds up to just too much bizarreness. And I don’t want to live my life being ultra careful about how I spend my time, what I say online, who I hang out with, etc etc.

Also, I think it’s more appropriate for me to spend my energy elsewhere doing other kinds of things to make a difference.

I would love campaign managing and I think I’m really good at it, but there’s too many “consultants” out there, too much competition, I’m too old to start out, and it’s too seasonal/itinerant and doesn’t pay enough at this stage in my life, and the hours are killer. I’m keeping it as a hobby, although right now I’m not even interested in local races. If so moved, however…..ya never know.

“Why can’t you and the idea of separation of powers just hug it out, b***?” Wonkette

by Hollywood Liberal on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:15:40 AM PDT

Greatness calls (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:Jerome a Paris, VexingEyes, kraant …you should answer. Our country needs people like you to run—intelligent, educated people who care passionately about the overall good, uncorrupted by a greedy personal agenda. Easy for me to say, I know. My prayers are with you as you consider this decision.

by desordre remplir on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:18:08 AM PDT

When I live in Media Penna (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:wmtriallawyer, kraant I considered it twice. After helping the Dems take over the local boro government, I was asked if I wanted to run for tax collector. I considered it and then realize it was the one office for which I could not run - I was the only one in my company who lived in Media, and under state law they therefore did not have to withhold the 1/2% payroll tax. In theory we were supposed to file quarterly, but the money was so small I always just paid it at the end of the year. I was sure that would come out in a campaign for that office!!!

I also considered a run for the state legislature. The incumbent, a republican leader, was making noises about retiring. While the District was Republican, it was not so heavily so that in a open contest a dem couldn’t win. And because of non-political reasons I knew well and was like by most of the Greeks who owned the pizza parlors and a lot of the diners, and several said they’d be happy to promote me, even though they themselves were nominally Republicans.

But the incumbent decided to run for another term, then I decided to move to the DC area.

I have not had the itch since, if for no other reason than in Arlington the number of people getting their tickets stamped to run for office is so great that one usually has to put in many years of service before one has a meaningful shot. besides, I love teaching school and jumping in and out of political activity as my time allows.

i was just asked to run for VP of my neighborhood association. Since I have not been that active in the association and my schedule is very heavy right now, for this cycle I have instead agreed to serve as a delegate to the country-wde assembly of community associations — which coincidentally entitles me to ask a question at any of the assembly’s candidate forums.

I have twice served as an officer of professional associations, and have served in local, state and elective offices of a religious organization. My itch has been scratched enough.

Those who can, do. Those who can do more, TEACH!

by teacherken on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:27:11 AM PDT

If you’re going to be a sacrificial lamb anyway (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:VexingEyes, polydactyl, kraant Run your way. I live in Florida, and when Bob Graham was running his first time out, he traveled the state doing odd jobs to get a feel for what everyone else does. If you run, be creative in your campaign. Instead of glitzy ads, do them all yourself. Say what you think, not what some overpriced campaign consultant says. Don’t run your campaign as dueling press conferences. Go after your opponent. Attend his press conferences. If he tries to throw you out, make sure everyone knows he will not engage you about the issues in your district. Above all, stay focused on local issues. Let your opponent make the first move when it comes to national issues, and then acknowledge that it is a national issue first before responding. Even if you don’t win, you might not need to raise so much money. Also, you’ve got a built in fund raiser here at DKOS, so put it to good use.

Do Pavlov’s dogs chase Schroedinger’s cat?

by corwin on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:28:44 AM PDT

You should run… (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant Which district?

“You have your thoughts and I have mine. This is the fact and you can’t change it even if you kill me.”— Ba Jin

by Robb Black on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:37:37 AM PDT

I can only say… (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:VexingEyes, kraant That, mate, it you feel the call, and your family supports you, go for it. You see, in the most idealist sense (and yes, I know you are an attorney) this is a government not only by the people and of the people, but its elected leaders are those of the people and for the people. It is not reserved for some elite group, though many have taken it that way, enabled by either acquiesence or subservience to falsehoods.

Obviously, government as it esists now, particularly at the federal level, only considers (during the GBW era) the people to be a nuisance. The people (in their view) comprise an inconsequential and ignorant mass, and certainly not a body that deserves answers. The fact is, the people are an awakening mass, and as such, both demands and deserves answers at all levels.

The family question is not an easy one, but if they support you, well then, I do too!

Life is not a ‘dress rehearsal’!

by wgard on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:43:48 AM PDT

If You Won’t Do It (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:Catte Nappe, kraant Please help find someone who will. Personally I’ve always thought it would be much cooler to be Merlin rather than Arthur, that might be your role.

9/11 + 4 Years = Katrina… Conservatism Kills.

by NewDirection on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:22:33 AM PDT

Consider also what would happen next (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:Catte Nappe, kraant if you won. State legislators spend several months a year in session. They also attend “obligatory” but unpaid functions year-round - the Chamber of Commerce invites you to speak, the county planning committee wants to honor you, there’s a groundbreaking for the community college. Plus, to be effective, state reps must stay on top of the political scene 365 days a year.

Do you live in your state capitol? If not, how long is the drive? Where would you stay when you’re in session? What would your employer say about your time away from work? Would you still get paid your full salary? What kind of stipend do legislators get in your state? Do you like to sleep? Do things with your family?

My husband gave serious thought to running against the idiot who represents our district. These questions brought him up short. We know a state legislator and he’s the hardest-working person I know. It’s a huge commitment.

I’m not saying don’t do it. But running for office isn’t an end of its own, and when I hear people pushing others to “go for it, what have you got to lose!” I wonder if they’ve thought about these things.

by el dorado gal on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:31:22 AM PDT

echo (0 / 0) I want to echo an earlier comment that you do not have to buy into the conventional wisdom of raising tons of money and doing it the standard, consultant driven way. There have been examples of members running and winning with shoestring budgets because they ran creative, imaginative campaigns. Since you are expecting to be a sacrificial lamb anyway, concentrate on making your opponent spend his or her money, not spending your own, Just by showing up at candidate forums and other free public events you will be at least getting your message out to more than would hear it otherwise, so I say don’t sweat the money, and if thats your biggest concern, then you should run. In fact make the scandalous amount of money normally required to win the seat one of your campaign issues. On the other hand, there is no doubt politics is a tough bus. and you have to consider you family. Sit down and thrash it out with your wife, if she’s behind it go ahead, the experience will teach you more about politics than anything else you could possibly do I’m sure, and will provide a sterling example for the young folks, and give them a chance for real world experience to boot. I quite frankly would never do it. I am much too much of a private, solitary person, and being a non-christian, (also non-jewish or muslim or any other affiliation), anit-drug war, long haired bumpkin I wouldn’t have a snowball’s chance anyway. Best of luck either way.

by fat old man on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:38:38 AM PDT

Permalink | 22 comments

By Stupid Selfish Liberal

April 7, 2006 11:52 AM | Link to this

Scratching the Itch by wmtriallawyer Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:00:55 AM PDT Back when I was fresh out of college and hitting the campaign trail, I had the opportunity to go to a campaign training school for a week before heading out into the world to help elect Democrats.

In the first lecture, a seasoned campaign vet said that the number rule to remember in politics is this:

All candidates are crazy.

The vet reasoned they HAVE to be to want to run for office, to subject themselves and their family to all the crap that comes with running. Nevertheless, he said, they did it, because most of them believed in making things better.

wmtriallawyer’s diary :: :: Well, I’ve always toyed with the idea of running for office myself…but I’m not crazy. (My wife would disagree, but, I digress…) Odd, perhaps. But not certifiable.

Fortunately, I never had to approach the question head on until recently. VERY recently. The chair of our county Democrat commitee recently approached me and asked me if I was interested in running for the State House.

Now, keep in mind, I had just met this person. And I’ve been involved in the local party the cosmic equivalent of two seconds. But, I live in a marginally Republican district, and the Ds don’t have a warm body on the ballot yet. They want one.

I’m committed time-wise to strengthening the local party organization, particularly through my young Dems group. But run for office??? Can’t say it hasn’t crossed my mind, but more likely it would be down the road, when I learn the ins and outs the local apparatus, make some connections, actually, you know, LEARN what everybody in my county and state does, what their roles are, etc.

Anyway, it’s hard. I want to be able to vote for a Democrat for my state House in my district…a district, I think, can be won be the right candidate under the right circumstances. I happen to think this year is the right circumstances, given the national climate.

But I don’t think I’m the guy. Not yet. My trepidation occurs for several reasons: the grimace on my wife’s face of having to be a “politician’s wife”, the time needed to mount the race, the lack of a desire to be a sacrificial lamb for the party. But the main one, I think, has to do with what I heard last night regarding the amount of money one needed to raise for a successful race for the State House. Let’s just say it’s more money than my wife and I make in terms of gross income…and we make low six figures.

So I’ve got this itch…and I’m trying not to scratch it. I have no idea whether I’d be a good politician — or better yet a bad politician but a good statesman — but it intrigues. Just not enough to jump in yet.

What I want to know is, how many Kossacks have got the itch? And what would you do in my situation?

Poll Have you got the itch? Yes, and I’m scratching it Yes, but I’m putting Calomine lotion on it No way…I’m not crazy

Votes: 23

Results :: Other Polls

Tags: politics, running for office, Democrats (all tags)

Permalink | 22 comments

Comments: Expand Shrink Hide (Always) | Indented Flat (Always)

Daily Kos Help

That Calomine lotion… (9+ / 0-) Recommended by:wozzle, polecat, wanderindiana, polydactyl, Alegre, ord avg guy, desordre remplir, kraant, think blue boy, it’s good stuff. Sooooothing. Ahhhh.

If I can’t dance, it’s not my revolution.

by wmtriallawyer on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:00:58 AM PDT

Have a Serious Heart to Heart with Your Wife (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:wmtriallawyer, kraant about this. It’s as much her decision as yours.

State House eh? It would take a lot of $$, time and all - and your friends will probably start avoiding you after you’ve hit them up for $ for the 4th time in a week. And they’d dig into your personal lives big-time. No problem if you’ve no skelatons in your closets.

Having said that - I think you should go for it. It sounds like you’d like to serve in some capacity some day and this would be a great way to get some name recognition in your area. And as others have pointed out - it would force the R in your community to spend some more $$ in his or her effort to get elected.

And anything that drains the GOP coffers has got to be a mighty good thing.

I was tossing around the notion of running for the local school board some day, but I’m not sure I’d want to put my family through all the digging in to our personal lives. Maybe some day.

Bloggin’ with a bar of soap and my car window IMPEACH -8.75 / -6.10

by Alegre on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:51:49 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Digging around (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant Yeah, that’s a biggie. I don’t have anything horrible in my past… .some credit issues — like everyone else — that I’ve taken care of. I’m nervous about putting my identity on display HERE, amongst friends…how would I feel about it in the klieg lights of a campaign (even at the State House level)?

Would be kind of fun for them to find my blog posts, though…heh-heh.

I guess I’m just more interested in rebuilding my party now than I am running for office.

If I can’t dance, it’s not my revolution.

by wmtriallawyer on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:57:25 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Honestly? (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant Your run for office would go a long way toward re-building the party in your area. Think of the contacts you could make, the experience you’d gain, and the advice you could give to future candidates.

Bloggin’ with a bar of soap and my car window IMPEACH -8.75 / -6.10

by Alegre on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:00:16 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

But… (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant I also made a commitment to my group of Young Dems in my area…and running for office would take me wholly away from that commitment, I fear.

If I can’t dance, it’s not my revolution.

by wmtriallawyer on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:01:30 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Good Point (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant Why not make them part of your decision making process. Who knows? They may be behind your run for office. They may be chomping at the bit to help even.

Bloggin’ with a bar of soap and my car window IMPEACH -8.75 / -6.10

by Alegre on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:02:40 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Your Sig Line (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant says it all. It may be time to get out on the floor and dance like nobody’s watching…

Great quote btw.

Bloggin’ with a bar of soap and my car window IMPEACH -8.75 / -6.10

by Alegre on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:01:47 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Run anyway (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:polecat Even if you don’t spend much time doing it, it’ll force your opponent to spend time and money running against you instead of having a clear run and being able to send money off to support other repub candidates.

Don’t be a f***! HTH k thnx

by kraant on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:06:37 AM PDT

Yes, Run Anyways (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant You have to start somewhere.

I’ll throw in $100 if you run.

by eafredel on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:13:19 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

well, (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant I would consider it for next round. You really do have to take your family into consideration. This will be a big step to take, will have a huge impact on your family. Form an exploratory committee for 2008!

“Why can’t you and the idea of separation of powers just hug it out, b***?” Wonkette

by Hollywood Liberal on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:17:04 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Mighty generous of you (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant And thanks for that.

If I can’t dance, it’s not my revolution.

by wmtriallawyer on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:19:21 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

RUN AWAY (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant When I first saw this post, I thought it said “RUN AWAY!”

Very fast.

Happy little moron, lucky little man. I wish I was a moron, my God, perhaps I am! — Spike Milligan

by polecat on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:15:18 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

‘Did you hear something?’ (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:Jerome a Paris, kraant I heard a knocking…it sounded like oppurtunity.

If Liberals hated America, we’d vote Republican.

by ord avg guy on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:10:46 AM PDT

I had the itch (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:wmtriallawyer, kraant I had the itch for campaign managing, and to be a candidate, so I went and did and Emily’s List candidate’s training, among other things, to investigate. Actually talked to some electeds about it, including Dick Durbin!! Also campaign managed a city council race. It was good, learned a lot from both, and also learned I don’t ever want to run for office. Not my bag, baby, and while in the training they said that people who are concerned about having a flawless past are usually over-reacting, I think mine is just a little too weird to run for office. It adds up to just too much bizarreness. And I don’t want to live my life being ultra careful about how I spend my time, what I say online, who I hang out with, etc etc.

Also, I think it’s more appropriate for me to spend my energy elsewhere doing other kinds of things to make a difference.

I would love campaign managing and I think I’m really good at it, but there’s too many “consultants” out there, too much competition, I’m too old to start out, and it’s too seasonal/itinerant and doesn’t pay enough at this stage in my life, and the hours are killer. I’m keeping it as a hobby, although right now I’m not even interested in local races. If so moved, however…..ya never know.

“Why can’t you and the idea of separation of powers just hug it out, b***?” Wonkette

by Hollywood Liberal on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:15:40 AM PDT

Greatness calls (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:Jerome a Paris, VexingEyes, kraant …you should answer. Our country needs people like you to run—intelligent, educated people who care passionately about the overall good, uncorrupted by a greedy personal agenda. Easy for me to say, I know. My prayers are with you as you consider this decision.

by desordre remplir on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:18:08 AM PDT

When I live in Media Penna (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:wmtriallawyer, kraant I considered it twice. After helping the Dems take over the local boro government, I was asked if I wanted to run for tax collector. I considered it and then realize it was the one office for which I could not run - I was the only one in my company who lived in Media, and under state law they therefore did not have to withhold the 1/2% payroll tax. In theory we were supposed to file quarterly, but the money was so small I always just paid it at the end of the year. I was sure that would come out in a campaign for that office!!!

I also considered a run for the state legislature. The incumbent, a republican leader, was making noises about retiring. While the District was Republican, it was not so heavily so that in a open contest a dem couldn’t win. And because of non-political reasons I knew well and was like by most of the Greeks who owned the pizza parlors and a lot of the diners, and several said they’d be happy to promote me, even though they themselves were nominally Republicans.

But the incumbent decided to run for another term, then I decided to move to the DC area.

I have not had the itch since, if for no other reason than in Arlington the number of people getting their tickets stamped to run for office is so great that one usually has to put in many years of service before one has a meaningful shot. besides, I love teaching school and jumping in and out of political activity as my time allows.

i was just asked to run for VP of my neighborhood association. Since I have not been that active in the association and my schedule is very heavy right now, for this cycle I have instead agreed to serve as a delegate to the country-wde assembly of community associations — which coincidentally entitles me to ask a question at any of the assembly’s candidate forums.

I have twice served as an officer of professional associations, and have served in local, state and elective offices of a religious organization. My itch has been scratched enough.

Those who can, do. Those who can do more, TEACH!

by teacherken on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:27:11 AM PDT

If you’re going to be a sacrificial lamb anyway (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:VexingEyes, polydactyl, kraant Run your way. I live in Florida, and when Bob Graham was running his first time out, he traveled the state doing odd jobs to get a feel for what everyone else does. If you run, be creative in your campaign. Instead of glitzy ads, do them all yourself. Say what you think, not what some overpriced campaign consultant says. Don’t run your campaign as dueling press conferences. Go after your opponent. Attend his press conferences. If he tries to throw you out, make sure everyone knows he will not engage you about the issues in your district. Above all, stay focused on local issues. Let your opponent make the first move when it comes to national issues, and then acknowledge that it is a national issue first before responding. Even if you don’t win, you might not need to raise so much money. Also, you’ve got a built in fund raiser here at DKOS, so put it to good use.

Do Pavlov’s dogs chase Schroedinger’s cat?

by corwin on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:28:44 AM PDT

You should run… (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant Which district?

“You have your thoughts and I have mine. This is the fact and you can’t change it even if you kill me.”— Ba Jin

by Robb Black on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:37:37 AM PDT

I can only say… (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:VexingEyes, kraant That, mate, it you feel the call, and your family supports you, go for it. You see, in the most idealist sense (and yes, I know you are an attorney) this is a government not only by the people and of the people, but its elected leaders are those of the people and for the people. It is not reserved for some elite group, though many have taken it that way, enabled by either acquiesence or subservience to falsehoods.

Obviously, government as it esists now, particularly at the federal level, only considers (during the GBW era) the people to be a nuisance. The people (in their view) comprise an inconsequential and ignorant mass, and certainly not a body that deserves answers. The fact is, the people are an awakening mass, and as such, both demands and deserves answers at all levels.

The family question is not an easy one, but if they support you, well then, I do too!

Life is not a ‘dress rehearsal’!

by wgard on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:43:48 AM PDT

If You Won’t Do It (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:Catte Nappe, kraant Please help find someone who will. Personally I’ve always thought it would be much cooler to be Merlin rather than Arthur, that might be your role.

9/11 + 4 Years = Katrina… Conservatism Kills.

by NewDirection on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:22:33 AM PDT

Consider also what would happen next (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:Catte Nappe, kraant if you won. State legislators spend several months a year in session. They also attend “obligatory” but unpaid functions year-round - the Chamber of Commerce invites you to speak, the county planning committee wants to honor you, there’s a groundbreaking for the community college. Plus, to be effective, state reps must stay on top of the political scene 365 days a year.

Do you live in your state capitol? If not, how long is the drive? Where would you stay when you’re in session? What would your employer say about your time away from work? Would you still get paid your full salary? What kind of stipend do legislators get in your state? Do you like to sleep? Do things with your family?

My husband gave serious thought to running against the idiot who represents our district. These questions brought him up short. We know a state legislator and he’s the hardest-working person I know. It’s a huge commitment.

I’m not saying don’t do it. But running for office isn’t an end of its own, and when I hear people pushing others to “go for it, what have you got to lose!” I wonder if they’ve thought about these things.

by el dorado gal on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:31:22 AM PDT

echo (0 / 0) I want to echo an earlier comment that you do not have to buy into the conventional wisdom of raising tons of money and doing it the standard, consultant driven way. There have been examples of members running and winning with shoestring budgets because they ran creative, imaginative campaigns. Since you are expecting to be a sacrificial lamb anyway, concentrate on making your opponent spend his or her money, not spending your own, Just by showing up at candidate forums and other free public events you will be at least getting your message out to more than would hear it otherwise, so I say don’t sweat the money, and if thats your biggest concern, then you should run. In fact make the scandalous amount of money normally required to win the seat one of your campaign issues. On the other hand, there is no doubt politics is a tough bus. and you have to consider you family. Sit down and thrash it out with your wife, if she’s behind it go ahead, the experience will teach you more about politics than anything else you could possibly do I’m sure, and will provide a sterling example for the young folks, and give them a chance for real world experience to boot. I quite frankly would never do it. I am much too much of a private, solitary person, and being a non-christian, (also non-jewish or muslim or any other affiliation), anit-drug war, long haired bumpkin I wouldn’t have a snowball’s chance anyway.

By Stupid Selfish Liberal Name Jacker

April 7, 2006 11:53 AM | Link to this

Scratching the Itch by wmtriallawyer Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:00:55 AM PDT Back when I was fresh out of college and hitting the campaign trail, I had the opportunity to go to a campaign training school for a week before heading out into the world to help elect Democrats.

In the first lecture, a seasoned campaign vet said that the number rule to remember in politics is this:

All candidates are crazy.

The vet reasoned they HAVE to be to want to run for office, to subject themselves and their family to all the crap that comes with running. Nevertheless, he said, they did it, because most of them believed in making things better.

wmtriallawyer’s diary :: :: Well, I’ve always toyed with the idea of running for office myself…but I’m not crazy. (My wife would disagree, but, I digress…) Odd, perhaps. But not certifiable.

Fortunately, I never had to approach the question head on until recently. VERY recently. The chair of our county Democrat commitee recently approached me and asked me if I was interested in running for the State House.

Now, keep in mind, I had just met this person. And I’ve been involved in the local party the cosmic equivalent of two seconds. But, I live in a marginally Republican district, and the Ds don’t have a warm body on the ballot yet. They want one.

I’m committed time-wise to strengthening the local party organization, particularly through my young Dems group. But run for office??? Can’t say it hasn’t crossed my mind, but more likely it would be down the road, when I learn the ins and outs the local apparatus, make some connections, actually, you know, LEARN what everybody in my county and state does, what their roles are, etc.

Anyway, it’s hard. I want to be able to vote for a Democrat for my state House in my district…a district, I think, can be won be the right candidate under the right circumstances. I happen to think this year is the right circumstances, given the national climate.

But I don’t think I’m the guy. Not yet. My trepidation occurs for several reasons: the grimace on my wife’s face of having to be a “politician’s wife”, the time needed to mount the race, the lack of a desire to be a sacrificial lamb for the party. But the main one, I think, has to do with what I heard last night regarding the amount of money one needed to raise for a successful race for the State House. Let’s just say it’s more money than my wife and I make in terms of gross income…and we make low six figures.

So I’ve got this itch…and I’m trying not to scratch it. I have no idea whether I’d be a good politician — or better yet a bad politician but a good statesman — but it intrigues. Just not enough to jump in yet.

What I want to know is, how many Kossacks have got the itch? And what would you do in my situation?

Poll Have you got the itch? Yes, and I’m scratching it Yes, but I’m putting Calomine lotion on it No way…I’m not crazy

Votes: 23

Results :: Other Polls

Tags: politics, running for office, Democrats (all tags)

Permalink | 22 comments

Comments: Expand Shrink Hide (Always) | Indented Flat (Always)

Daily Kos Help

That Calomine lotion… (9+ / 0-) Recommended by:wozzle, polecat, wanderindiana, polydactyl, Alegre, ord avg guy, desordre remplir, kraant, think blue boy, it’s good stuff. Sooooothing. Ahhhh.

If I can’t dance, it’s not my revolution.

by wmtriallawyer on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:00:58 AM PDT

Have a Serious Heart to Heart with Your Wife (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:wmtriallawyer, kraant about this. It’s as much her decision as yours.

State House eh? It would take a lot of $$, time and all - and your friends will probably start avoiding you after you’ve hit them up for $ for the 4th time in a week. And they’d dig into your personal lives big-time. No problem if you’ve no skelatons in your closets.

Having said that - I think you should go for it. It sounds like you’d like to serve in some capacity some day and this would be a great way to get some name recognition in your area. And as others have pointed out - it would force the R in your community to spend some more $$ in his or her effort to get elected.

And anything that drains the GOP coffers has got to be a mighty good thing.

I was tossing around the notion of running for the local school board some day, but I’m not sure I’d want to put my family through all the digging in to our personal lives. Maybe some day.

Bloggin’ with a bar of soap and my car window IMPEACH -8.75 / -6.10

by Alegre on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:51:49 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Digging around (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant Yeah, that’s a biggie. I don’t have anything horrible in my past… .some credit issues — like everyone else — that I’ve taken care of. I’m nervous about putting my identity on display HERE, amongst friends…how would I feel about it in the klieg lights of a campaign (even at the State House level)?

Would be kind of fun for them to find my blog posts, though…heh-heh.

I guess I’m just more interested in rebuilding my party now than I am running for office.

If I can’t dance, it’s not my revolution.

by wmtriallawyer on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:57:25 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Honestly? (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant Your run for office would go a long way toward re-building the party in your area. Think of the contacts you could make, the experience you’d gain, and the advice you could give to future candidates.

Bloggin’ with a bar of soap and my car window IMPEACH -8.75 / -6.10

by Alegre on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:00:16 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

But… (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant I also made a commitment to my group of Young Dems in my area…and running for office would take me wholly away from that commitment, I fear.

If I can’t dance, it’s not my revolution.

by wmtriallawyer on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:01:30 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Good Point (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant Why not make them part of your decision making process. Who knows? They may be behind your run for office. They may be chomping at the bit to help even.

Bloggin’ with a bar of soap and my car window IMPEACH -8.75 / -6.10

by Alegre on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:02:40 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Your Sig Line (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant says it all. It may be time to get out on the floor and dance like nobody’s watching…

Great quote btw.

Bloggin’ with a bar of soap and my car window IMPEACH -8.75 / -6.10

by Alegre on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:01:47 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Run anyway (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:polecat Even if you don’t spend much time doing it, it’ll force your opponent to spend time and money running against you instead of having a clear run and being able to send money off to support other repub candidates.

Don’t be a f***! HTH k thnx

by kraant on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:06:37 AM PDT

Yes, Run Anyways (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant You have to start somewhere.

I’ll throw in $100 if you run.

by eafredel on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:13:19 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

well, (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant I would consider it for next round. You really do have to take your family into consideration. This will be a big step to take, will have a huge impact on your family. Form an exploratory committee for 2008!

“Why can’t you and the idea of separation of powers just hug it out, b***?” Wonkette

by Hollywood Liberal on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:17:04 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

Mighty generous of you (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant And thanks for that.

If I can’t dance, it’s not my revolution.

by wmtriallawyer on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:19:21 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

RUN AWAY (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant When I first saw this post, I thought it said “RUN AWAY!”

Very fast.

Happy little moron, lucky little man. I wish I was a moron, my God, perhaps I am! — Spike Milligan

by polecat on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:15:18 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

‘Did you hear something?’ (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:Jerome a Paris, kraant I heard a knocking…it sounded like oppurtunity.

If Liberals hated America, we’d vote Republican.

by ord avg guy on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:10:46 AM PDT

I had the itch (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:wmtriallawyer, kraant I had the itch for campaign managing, and to be a candidate, so I went and did and Emily’s List candidate’s training, among other things, to investigate. Actually talked to some electeds about it, including Dick Durbin!! Also campaign managed a city council race. It was good, learned a lot from both, and also learned I don’t ever want to run for office. Not my bag, baby, and while in the training they said that people who are concerned about having a flawless past are usually over-reacting, I think mine is just a little too weird to run for office. It adds up to just too much bizarreness. And I don’t want to live my life being ultra careful about how I spend my time, what I say online, who I hang out with, etc etc.

Also, I think it’s more appropriate for me to spend my energy elsewhere doing other kinds of things to make a difference.

I would love campaign managing and I think I’m really good at it, but there’s too many “consultants” out there, too much competition, I’m too old to start out, and it’s too seasonal/itinerant and doesn’t pay enough at this stage in my life, and the hours are killer. I’m keeping it as a hobby, although right now I’m not even interested in local races. If so moved, however…..ya never know.

“Why can’t you and the idea of separation of powers just hug it out, b***?” Wonkette

by Hollywood Liberal on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:15:40 AM PDT

Greatness calls (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:Jerome a Paris, VexingEyes, kraant …you should answer. Our country needs people like you to run—intelligent, educated people who care passionately about the overall good, uncorrupted by a greedy personal agenda. Easy for me to say, I know. My prayers are with you as you consider this decision.

by desordre remplir on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:18:08 AM PDT

When I live in Media Penna (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:wmtriallawyer, kraant I considered it twice. After helping the Dems take over the local boro government, I was asked if I wanted to run for tax collector. I considered it and then realize it was the one office for which I could not run - I was the only one in my company who lived in Media, and under state law they therefore did not have to withhold the 1/2% payroll tax. In theory we were supposed to file quarterly, but the money was so small I always just paid it at the end of the year. I was sure that would come out in a campaign for that office!!!

I also considered a run for the state legislature. The incumbent, a republican leader, was making noises about retiring. While the District was Republican, it was not so heavily so that in a open contest a dem couldn’t win. And because of non-political reasons I knew well and was like by most of the Greeks who owned the pizza parlors and a lot of the diners, and several said they’d be happy to promote me, even though they themselves were nominally Republicans.

But the incumbent decided to run for another term, then I decided to move to the DC area.

I have not had the itch since, if for no other reason than in Arlington the number of people getting their tickets stamped to run for office is so great that one usually has to put in many years of service before one has a meaningful shot. besides, I love teaching school and jumping in and out of political activity as my time allows.

i was just asked to run for VP of my neighborhood association. Since I have not been that active in the association and my schedule is very heavy right now, for this cycle I have instead agreed to serve as a delegate to the country-wde assembly of community associations — which coincidentally entitles me to ask a question at any of the assembly’s candidate forums.

I have twice served as an officer of professional associations, and have served in local, state and elective offices of a religious organization. My itch has been scratched enough.

Those who can, do. Those who can do more, TEACH!

by teacherken on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:27:11 AM PDT

If you’re going to be a sacrificial lamb anyway (3+ / 0-) Recommended by:VexingEyes, polydactyl, kraant Run your way. I live in Florida, and when Bob Graham was running his first time out, he traveled the state doing odd jobs to get a feel for what everyone else does. If you run, be creative in your campaign. Instead of glitzy ads, do them all yourself. Say what you think, not what some overpriced campaign consultant says. Don’t run your campaign as dueling press conferences. Go after your opponent. Attend his press conferences. If he tries to throw you out, make sure everyone knows he will not engage you about the issues in your district. Above all, stay focused on local issues. Let your opponent make the first move when it comes to national issues, and then acknowledge that it is a national issue first before responding. Even if you don’t win, you might not need to raise so much money. Also, you’ve got a built in fund raiser here at DKOS, so put it to good use.

Do Pavlov’s dogs chase Schroedinger’s cat?

by corwin on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:28:44 AM PDT

You should run… (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:kraant Which district?

“You have your thoughts and I have mine. This is the fact and you can’t change it even if you kill me.”— Ba Jin

by Robb Black on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:37:37 AM PDT

I can only say… (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:VexingEyes, kraant That, mate, it you feel the call, and your family supports you, go for it. You see, in the most idealist sense (and yes, I know you are an attorney) this is a government not only by the people and of the people, but its elected leaders are those of the people and for the people. It is not reserved for some elite group, though many have taken it that way, enabled by either acquiesence or subservience to falsehoods.

Obviously, government as it esists now, particularly at the federal level, only considers (during the GBW era) the people to be a nuisance. The people (in their view) comprise an inconsequential and ignorant mass, and certainly not a body that deserves answers. The fact is, the people are an awakening mass, and as such, both demands and deserves answers at all levels.

The family question is not an easy one, but if they support you, well then, I do too!

Life is not a ‘dress rehearsal’!

by wgard on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 07:43:48 AM PDT

If You Won’t Do It (1+ / 0-) Recommended by:Catte Nappe, kraant Please help find someone who will. Personally I’ve always thought it would be much cooler to be Merlin rather than Arthur, that might be your role.

9/11 + 4 Years = Katrina… Conservatism Kills.

by NewDirection on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:22:33 AM PDT

Consider also what would happen next (2+ / 0-) Recommended by:Catte Nappe, kraant if you won. State legislators spend several months a year in session. They also attend “obligatory” but unpaid functions year-round - the Chamber of Commerce invites you to speak, the county planning committee wants to honor you, there’s a groundbreaking for the community college. Plus, to be effective, state reps must stay on top of the political scene 365 days a year.

Do you live in your state capitol? If not, how long is the drive? Where would you stay when you’re in session? What would your employer say about your time away from work? Would you still get paid your full salary? What kind of stipend do legislators get in your state? Do you like to sleep? Do things with your family?

My husband gave serious thought to running against the idiot who represents our district. These questions brought him up short. We know a state legislator and he’s the hardest-working person I know. It’s a huge commitment.

I’m not saying don’t do it. But running for office isn’t an end of its own, and when I hear people pushing others to “go for it, what have you got to lose!” I wonder if they’ve thought about these things.

by el dorado gal on Fri Apr 07, 2006 at 08:31:22 AM PDT

echo (0 / 0) I want to echo an earlier comment that you do not have to buy into the conventional wisdom of raising tons of money and doing it the standard, consultant driven way. There have been examples of members running and winning with shoestring budgets because

By Stupid Selfish Liberal Name Jacker

April 7, 2006 11:57 AM | Link to this

Exposing The Homosexual/Pedophile Link Homosexuals seldom openly admit that they want to sexually assault children, but their literature and their actions tell another story. In the January 1-8, 2001 issue of The Weekly Standard, author Mary Eberstadt exposed the clear link between homosexual activism and the growing North-American Man- Boy Love Association (NAMBLA) movement. Writing in “’Pedophilia Chic’ Reconsidered: The taboo against sex with children continues to erode,” Eberstadt notes:

The reason why the public is being urged to reconsider boy pedophilia is that this ‘question,’ settled though it may be in the opinions and laws of the rest of the country, is demonstrably not yet settled within certain parts of the gay rights movement. The more that movement has entered the mainstream, the more this ‘question’ has bubbled forth from that previously distant realm in the public square.

Eberstadt notes that the book, Male Inter-Generational Intimacy: Historical, Socio-Psychological, and Legal Perspectives edited by pedophile Edward Brongersma is currently available in the “gay/lesbian” sections of bookstores like Borders. This book, which openly promotes pedophilia, was first published in the Journal of Homosexuality in 1990. The Journal is edited by John DeCecco, a psychologist at San Francisco State University. DeCecco is a board member of the Dutch pedophile journal, Paidika.

The homosexual magazine Guide published a pro-pedophile editorial in its July, 1995 issue. In referring to pedophiles as “prophets” of sexual freedom, the Guide editorialist wrote: “We must listen to our prophets. Instead of fearing being labeled pedophiles, we must proudly proclaim that sex is good, including children’s sexuality… . Surrounded by pious moralists with deadening anti-sexual rules, we must be shameless rulebreakers, demonstrating our allegiance to a higher concept of love. We must do it for the children’s sake.”

Parents are correct to be concerned about homosexuals sexually assaulting their children. The Boy Scouts of America, for example, is right to prohibit homosexuals from membership or leadership positions. It is evident from the statistical evidence and news reports of child molestation cases, that homosexuals pose a clear and present danger to children. Our laws and social policies should protect children, not cater to the whims and sexual desires of sexual predators. We must oppose homosexual activism “for the children’s sake.”

By Stupid Selfish Liberal Name Jacker

April 7, 2006 11:59 AM | Link to this

Inside the 50 State Strategy: Coming Soon I am finishing up a few pieces on Ohio, Indiana and Wisconsin for early next week. Whether “red” like Indiana, “blue” like Wisconsin, or “purple” like Ohio, Democrats have a number of terrific opportunities to capture seats long-held by the Republican Party at all levels of the ballot — and the organizers put on the ground by the DNC find themselves right in the thick of the battle. Be excited.

Posted by Tim Tagaris at 11:28 AM | Comments (1) | TrackBacks (0)

More From Oklahoma Oklahoma Democratic Party Chair Lisa Pryor provides the context for Mayor-elect Kathy Taylor’s victory earlier this week in Tulsa.

Pryor said the Democratic National Committee’s 50 State Strategy helped deliver Taylor’s win in Tulsa. The Democratic National Committee’s staff in Oklahoma partnered with the Taylor campaign on GOTV efforts and voter education efforts. “The DNC effort is building a grassroots infrastructure in every jurisdiction of Oklahoma,” Pryor said. “The DNC is fulfilling its mission to help our state party. We are building our party from the ground up by recruiting and training volunteers and growing our grassroots network. By investing in people and programs, we are building a better Oklahoma.”

While spy scandals, immigration debate, and poor planning in Iraq dominate the daily headlines, there are some 200 individuals working day in and day out across the country to elect Democrats from the top of the ticket this November, to races most people will never hear about throughout the year. Kathy Taylor’s stunning upset was just the latest example of organizers hired by the Democratic National Committee making a serious impact in changing not only the local landscape, but setting the table for elections across the country this November. But that work doesn’t even begin, let alone end, with the beefed up staffs at state headquarters … it’s about you. That’s why it’s so important to get involved in a meaningful way whenever opportunities present themself. To that end, the unprecedented National Canvass is only three weeks away. Have you signed up yet?

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Open Thread Friday.

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Thursday, April 06, 2006 Threads Open Adult Swim.

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Governor Dean on President Bush’s Role in CIA Leak Scandal Associated Press:

Vice President Dick Cheney’s former top aide told prosecutors that President Bush authorized the leak of sensitive intelligence information about Iraq, according to court papers filed by prosecutors in the CIA leak case. Before his indictment, I. Lewis Libby testified to the grand jury investigating the CIA leak that Cheney told him to pass on information and that it was Bush who authorized the disclosure, the court papers say. According to the documents, the authorization led to the July 8, 2003, conversation between Libby and New York Times reporter Judith Miller.

Governor Dean responded thusly:

“The fact that the president was willing to reveal classified information for political gain and put the interests of his political party ahead of Americas security shows that he can no longer be trusted to keep America safe.”

Posted by Tim Tagaris at 03:46 PM | Comments (28) | TrackBacks (0)

50 State Strategy: Stories from the Ground in Kansas Plucked from the comments on Kos:

Heck, I’m feeling Dean’s effects way on out here in KS. His “Fifty-state strategy” is getting us money to organize and hold some events that otherwise we just wouldn’t be able to do. Local as well as national democratic candidates are benefitting from these events. I’m on my local precint committee, and we’re getting regular visits from the KDP (Kansas Dem Party), which is getting money from the DNC to get out and get active. I’m loving it. Posted by Tim Tagaris at 03:32 PM | Comments (1) | TrackBacks (0)

PA-7: Photo of the Day Yes, this is a photo of Republican Congressman Curt Weldon alongside of another photo of Curt Weldon pinning a medal on Muammar Qaddafi. But that’s just the picture within the picture. The larger photo was taken of Weldon honoring Sun Myung Moon “as humanity’s Savior, Messiah, Returning Lord and True Parent.” Swing State Project has much more.

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Governor Dean on Air America Radio Interviewed by Paul Hackett. Enjoy! (.mp3 link) — Link works now.

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OHIO: Generic Polling Most of us are familiar with national polling that shows a majority of the public hoping to see a Democratic controlled Congress come January of 2007. But in a state that many consider to be a microcosm of national issues, Ohio, similar polling was recently conducted about the Ohio Legislative Branch. The numbers found an overwhelming majority of Ohioans would like to see a Democratic Columbus.

The latest statewide public-opinion poll found 59 percent of adults want Democrats to take control of the Republican-led state government. Only 33.6 percent want Republicans to remain in control, while 7.4 percent were undecided.

The state’s “Coingate” scandal - which resulted in five convictions on ethics charges, including that of Gov. Bob Taft - shapes public views, according to the poll.

The problems with the Ohio Republican Party extend well beyond the Coingate fiasco. You have a criminally convicted Republican Governor Bob Taft who is reviled for more than just his illegal behavior — The state is an absolute mess under GOP control. Manufacturing jobs are leaving the state and break-neck pace; Major urban centers earn national note because of staggering poverty levels or obscene crime rates; and yes, there is the tentacles of scandal that reach almost every corner of Republican leadership in the state. In fact, the only thing it wouldn’t be fair to blame GOP leadership for is the Cleveland Indians late season collapse last year … or can you?

It doesn’t help either when you have the GOP state chair suggest one of the most powerful Republican congressmen resign amid corruption charges, and said congressman fires back by letting the leader of the party know that “glass houses break easily.” Then there is the mess of a gubernatorial campaign waged between Kenneth Blackwell and Jim Petro… but of course, you have to look past investigations by the FBI into Petro’s campaign for Attorney General, or Ken Blackwell’s Diebold stock ownership while acting as Secretary of State. And yes, of course, there’s Tom Noe.

And when it comes down to election time, the only hope the Republican Party has is to divide Americans on the basis of race, religion, or sexual orientation.

That’s it. The cupboard is bare for an ossified leadership in Columbus, and Ohioans are ready for change.

Posted by Tim Tagaris at 12:15 PM | Comments (5) | TrackBacks (0)

Republican Priorities It isn’t often you are able to pore over a survey of rank-and-file Republicans to determine what their priorities are. But the folks over at GOPUSA (of Jeff Gannon fame), conducted one such poll and results were quite illuminating:

“GOPUSA then asked grassroots Republicans to provide feedback on what the priorities of the Republican Party should be.”

• Holding elected Republican officials accountable to the platform and their campaign promises — 50%

• Crafting a clear, unifying message to combat the Democrats and the media — 31%

• Recruitment of conservative candidates — 8%

• Better communication with grassroots Republicans — 7%

• More minority outreach — 1%

• Stronger fundraising efforts — less than 1 percent

• Other — 4%

Holding your elected officials responsible for the campaign promises they made, regardless of party, is always a noble goal. However, the fact that such a large number of Republicans find the number one priority of the party should be to combat Democrats and the media is pretty humorous. I don’t know if it’s a secret to our friends in the grassroots on the other side of the aisle, but they control all three branches of government. Maybe if a little less time was spent attempting to divide the country as a campaign strategy for success, more people might see Republican leadership as setting our country on the right track. As it stands, an overwhelming majority sees just the opposite, and that’s why so many will exercise their rights and vote to change the course this November.

Interestingly, among the activists of the party with zero African-Americans among its majorities in the house and senate, and which got less than 10% of the African-American vote last election, only 1% feel they need more minority outreach.

Posted by Tim Tagaris at 11:41 AM | Comments (5) | TrackBacks (0)

PA-Sen: Casey Leads Santorum… Still More polls on this race than almost any other during the 2006 election cycle, and Bob Casey continues to hold a double digit lead over Rick Santorum in a potential November matchup.

Quinnipiac University. 1,354 Pennsylvania Voters. MoE +/- 2.7% (General) & MoE +/- 4.1% (Primary).

Casey (D): 48% (51) Santorum (R): 37% (36)

Sandals (D): 32% Santorum (R): 44%

Pennacchio (D): 32% Santorum (R): 45%

Democratic Primary: Casey: 63% Sandals: 5% Pennacchio: 4%

The three Democratic candidates for U.S. Senate in Pennsylvania are scheduled to participate in the first of two debates this Saturday — the first forum will be broadcast on statewide television.

Posted by Tim Tagaris at 11:01 AM | Comments (11) | TrackBacks (0)

PA-7: Weldon Cracking Under Pressure It’s gotta be the pressure of a closely cotested congressional campaign. For Curt Weldon, it’s been quite some time since someone like U.S. Navy Vice Admiral and Fighting Democrat Joe Sestak has put some pressure on the incumbent congressman from PA. In fact, Weldon’s last four opponents combined only raised a mere $65,703 combined. By comparison, the Democratic Vice Admiral has already raised $420,000 in the 60 days since kicking off his campaign. Like I said, it’s gotta be the pressure, because there is absolutely zero excuse for this:

After combat operations in Afghanistan and a stint as a national-security aide in the Clinton White House, former Navy admiral Joe Sestak felt prepared for just about anything when he decided to run for Congress in Delaware County. But Sestak didn’t expect to be second-guessed by the Republican incumbent, Curt Weldon, on where his 5-year-old daughter, Alexandra Sestak, should be treated for a malignant brain tumor.

Apparently trying to score political points on a residency issue, Weldon reportedly suggested to a Washington newspaper that Sestak should have sent his daughter to a hospital in Pennsylvania or Delaware, rather than the Children’s National Medical Center in Washington, where she has been treated since the tumor was diagnosed last summer. […]

Alexandra Sestak - initially given just three to nine months to live - underwent three operations and chemotherapy. Her father said that in January doctors reported she had done well and could resume a normal life.

I think if you sat around in your room late night and thought about the most tasteless campaign attack you can make, most of us would struggle to reach such depths of depravity. But for Weldon, it came naturally, if not off rolling off his tongue as a long owned “oppo-research” bullet point just waiting for the right time to use. In any case, it’s completely classless.

Posted by Tim Tagaris at 10:01 AM | Comments (3) | TrackBacks (0)

Open Thread Consider the thread, open.

Posted by Tim Tagaris at 09:44 AM | Comments (175) | TrackBacks (0)

Wednesday, April 05, 2006 Open Thread Maryland won the NCAA Women’s Basketball National Championship last night … Fear the Turtle.

Posted by Tim Tagaris at 06:13 PM | Comments (274)

Inside the Fifty State Strategy: South Dakota More reason to be excited in 2006 about places most people used to think the only Democrats around were hiding in the wilderness from an occupying force like the “Wolverines” in the movie Red Dawn. We talked about Oklahoma this morning, but get some of South Dakota.

South Dakota Republicans still hold an advantage in the coming battle for the state Legislature, but Democrats are fielding more candidates than they have since 1992 — and that includes more candidates in districts in and around the Black Hills. “I’m really exuberant,” state Democratic Party chairwoman Judy Olson Duhamel of Rapid City said Tuesday. […] Olson Duhamel agreed that HB1215 “was a factor” in her party’s success in recruiting candidates this year, but she also credited getting three extra staff positions for the state party, paid for by the Democratic National Committee. “I want to thank Howard Dean,” she said.

Good news from Utah, Oklahoma, and now South Dakota, and all in a three day time period! What’s next, Indiana? Well, stick around … there’s a story to tell, and we’re going to tell it. Yes, there’s good news from Indiana on the way too.

Posted by Tim Tagaris at 06:04 PM | Comments (6) | TrackBacks (0)

By Stupid Selfish Liberal Name Jacker

April 7, 2006 12:02 PM | Link to this

Open Thread Posted by Tim Tagaris on April 7, 2006 at 09:30 AM Email this Print this Blog this Friday.

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“Nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there’s a twilight where everything remains seemingly unchanged, and it is in such twilight that we all must be aware of change in the air, however slight, lest we become victims of the darkness.”

William O. Douglas, U.S. Supreme Court Justice

Posted by xdebx on April 7, 2006 at 09:33 AM

Hi Fair Dems.

I don’t see how the media can be saying that Plame’s name was declassified so it was OK for w to tell that she was CIA. Does this mean that any undercover officer/agent can be “outed” by their superiors? Doing that could get them and their co-workers killed…it can’t be right. There is evidence of just that in this case…(from wiki):

Wayne Madsen, a reporter and former NSA employee, has claimed, “CIA sources report that at least one anonymous star placed on the CIA’s Wall of Honor at its Langley, Virginia headquarters is a clandestine agent who was executed in a hostile foreign nation as a direct result of the White House leak.”

Does anyone think that someone should be interviewing Madsen?

Posted by xdebx on April 7, 2006 at 09:34 AM

Deb, while the President has the authority to declassify any information I think the biggest point to this is that he never once said that was what happened. He was given multiple chances to use this excuse and only now brings it up when Libby inplicates him to the Grand Jury.

The MSM, should review their own audio files and notes and realize that Bush very clearly stated that the information was classified and was leaked.

Posted by Kristen on April 7, 2006 at 09:41 AM

Just made my bumper sticker which should get to me in 2-5 business days:

Will I get in trouble here in Tampa Bay with this one?

Elected Pedophiles Republicans: 48 Democrats: 0

Posted by Chris on April 7, 2006 at 09:41 AM

Chris,

You very well could be in trouble. I still see lots of W stickers, as unbelievable as that is.

This talking point is ridiculous. The NIE document does not name Valerie Plame anywhere in it. How do you get from that document to Plame? And if you’re going to declassify a document to make your case, you do so in a press conference or a formal announcement, you don’t leak it. The whole thing reeks.

Posted by Melissa on April 7, 2006 at 09:45 AM

I attended our congressional district Dem meeting last night and had a fantastic time.

One of the speakers that came in was talking about the local need for effective sexual health education in our district, as they have absolutely zero guidelines for teaching the subject. I was shocked to hear some of the statistics just from our small community. There has been a substantial increase in cases of clemedia among high school girls JUST in our district. One high school student told us that they hold multiple blood drives each year at her school and almost 25% of the blood given has to be thrown out because it is testing positive for various sexually transmitted diseases.

We also talked about a national abstinence only group called SHARE which requires all of its ‘speakers’ to sign an oath stating they have a personal relationship with Jesus and are affliated with a church as well as a reference/recommendation from a minister. This group is being allowed in to talk to students in various districts in our state and one of the things they are telling female students is that a boy will lose control when they are kissing and will not be able to stop himself so it is the girls responsiblity to stop him. (Talk about enforcing gender stereotypes!)

Anyway…I’m just rambling now. All in all, it was a great meeting!

Aids: Abstinence fervor

Posted by Kristen on April 7, 2006 at 09:58 AM

Democrats better not get to comfortable with Bush’s souring aproval ratings. This could be a mistake because the Americans who support Bush or at the very least support any and every Republican cause may not be out in droves looking for polls to voice their opinions.

Don’t be surprised if Americans who support Bush are sitting complacent worrying about other things rather than what the polls are saying about a soon-to-be lame duck.

Posted by Benji on April 7, 2006 at 10:03 AM

Democrats better not get to comfortable with Bush’s souring aproval ratings. This could be a mistake because the Americans who support Bush or at the very least support any and every Republican cause may not be out in droves looking for polls to voice their opinions.

Don’t be surprised if Americans who support Bush are sitting complacent worrying about other things rather than what the polls are saying about a soon-to-be lame duck.

Posted by Benji on April 7, 2006 at 10:04 AM

“telling female students is that a boy will lose control when they are kissing and will not be able to stop himself so it is the girls responsiblity to stop him”

Which is also telling the boys that they are supposed “lose control” and have no responsibility in the matter.

In England (where sex is openly discussed) boys are taught to be respectful, that it is wrong to pressure their girlfriend, and to “take matters into their own hands (literally)” if they have to. As a result the average age of the first sexual encounter is almost 2 years later for British kids than US kids. Nature dictates that human males are (on average) the most sexually experimental…they are the ones who need to be taught to control themselves.

Posted by xdebx on April 7, 2006 at 10:08 AM

Tell Harry Taylor “Thank you” for standing up for the Constitution and for feedom in the very presence of George Bush! Go here and express your gratitude:

http://thankyouharrytaylor.org/?n=15

Harry was the man in North Carolina who took the truth to Bush’s face and who, for expressing himself as per the Bill of Rights, got a facefull of Bush arrogance in response.

Join the thousands who have already shared in the chorus of thank you’s. Help make this story one with which Bush will have to deal for days.

Posted by ChuckWisconsin on April 7, 2006 at 10:10 AM

Today our dear fellow blogger GiG (short for German in Georgia) is becoming an American citizen! Dorsano has put together a little tribute for her. It would be most appreciated if you would go see it and post a congratulatory comment to GiG. It is up at both AKIE (the supplement blog for KA bloggers) and NBF. Some of our newer bloggers may not know GiG but trust me, she’s a wonderful lady and one we are so lucky to have become an official American! Thanks guys!

Posted by jen on April 7, 2006 at 10:34 AM

Is there a lobbyist for the American people? Can we start one? The whole Senate and House need to be over whelmed with email, phone calls and letters. Start now before it is to late, and all those who have not been active for the last 20 years get busy. Call your friends, neighbors, relatives, or just stand on the street corner.

Lets organize some American walks and marches. Boy in the late 60’s and 70’s people sure knew how to protest Viet Nam, What has happened in America that the Illegal’s are the only ones with time to march and organize?

Maybe the Americans are to busy working at the higher paying jobs (because none of them want the lower paying jobs) so they can support the influx of Illegals on Health care, Schools, Police Departments, and not to mention the Legal system.

Posted by Think-about-it on April 7, 2006 at 10:37 AM

Good morning, everyone.

I don’t see how the media can be saying that Plame’s name was declassified so it was OK for w to tell that she was CIA. Does this mean that any undercover officer/agent can be “outed” by their superiors? Doing that could get them and their co-workers killed…it can’t be right.

Posted by xdebx on April 7, 2006 at 09:34 AM

I agree, xdebx. This is the kind of stuff that is making the Republicans sink in the polls. The more excuses the media makes for this kind of inexcusable conduct, the worst all the Republicans look.

It’s common sense. You just don’t expose the indenity or strategic postion of the people you’ve placed in charge of protecting the nation from harm…whether they be soldiers or spies. After the Commander-in-Chief put this country at war, why on earth did he jeopardize the safety of our troops…for purely political reasons? He has no conscience.

This is no longer about leaking. It’s about the commitment of this President to our nation. Where is his loyalty? Is he committed to the United States and its citizens or to the multi-national corporations that he send our soldiers to protect and fondly showers with favors?

Since Katrina, the majority of Americans are open to discussions about the Plame outting. They fear that this President is out of his element when it comes to handling any crisis. He’s proven already that he is dishonest. Now they think he did it all (the war, the WMD lies, the Plame outting) all for political reasons.

He also has shredded the Bill of Rights and breaks the law whenever he wants. He tortures and lies at will. Breaks treaties and dares the international community to charge him with war crimes. He rules like a king and is not accountable to the Courts or anyone.

Everyone knows the Republican-controlled Congress has been taking bribes, as well as borrowing and spending out of control. They act as moral police and enable the President to abuse his power.

Our citizens also know that nothing has been done about real problems facing Americans such as our dependance on foreign oil, soaring health care costs, job outsourcing, immigration, or border/ports/nuclear and chemical industry security.

It’s a horrendous record of incompetence, greed, and abuse of power. It started with not taking the al Queda threat seriously. It escalated with the manipulating of the 9/11 attack as an excuse to start an unjustifed war. It’s the Republican party’s shame, and they have to run on it this fall.

They just can’t be trusted. They represent the economic interests and political future of other nations not the welfare of this country and its people. It has become an embarassing moment in our history.

Throw the bums out.

I’m sorry for the rant. I’ll keep my comment short for the rest of the day. later.

Posted by SandyH on April 7, 2006 at 10:39 AM

Sandy,

Don’t apologize for the rant. It was quite good…keep it up…you are an excellent ranteur;))

Posted by xdebx on April 7, 2006 at 10:46 AM

Good morning everyone. Long time no talk. Hi jen and Congrats to GIG. Hey GIG I have some awesome 85 degree weather to send up to you.

As for the state of everything else?

Bush - an embrassement as the leader of a technologically advanced country.

Tom Delay - gotcha !!!

Cynthia McKinney - Lord child, will you never learn.

Katrina victims - my heart still cries for you and my prayers are always with you.

Everything else - not worth mentioning.

Great day everyone, check you later.

Posted by J on April 7, 2006 at 11:02 AM

Ah Ha! Looks like Karl Rove to make a speech today, at 4:15, according to the C-Span site!

So he is the one they will send out, to Spin and distort and lie about Bush’s Leak to the Press about Valerie Plame, about Wire Tapping American citizens, etc!!!

Unbelievable the media even gives the time of day to these Liars anymore!

Posted by PamB on April 7, 2006 at 11:06 AM

If you are interested in helping 4 Anti-War Groups (Gold Star Families for Peace, Iraq War Vets against war, Military Families speak out, and Vets for Peace), here are some Stop War Stamps you can buy, which will help them, plus show your support for ending this Invasion !

http://www.goodstorm.com/image/bringthemhomenow/postageinsheetsof201sheet_20

Posted by PamB on April 7, 2006 at 11:10 AM

Chris,

The best method to distribute this information if these people have been convicted is to put them on a registry of sex offenders and distribute them. This is done on a regular bases by the fundamentalist religious groups. All the time! That the legal method of getting the information distributed.

You need solid evidence on your side. Person Name, Day of conviction, the crime etc..

Posted by HybridFuel on April 7, 2006 at 11:13 AM

John Dean (always worth a read):

Special Counsel Patrick Fitzgerald has now revealed in court filings bombshell information that I. Lewis “Scooter” Libby told the grand jury investigating the leak of Valerie Plame-Wilson’s covert CIA identity. According to Fitzgerald’s filings, Libby said that he was authorized by the President and Vice President to leak classified information to New York Times reporter Judith Miller.

This revelation has been accompanied by a number of public misstatements, which call for correction. The most blatant of these is the claim that Fitzgerald’s filing indicates that the President authorized the release of Valerie Plame’s covert status at the CIA. In fact, the document is conspicuously silent on this fact. The filing does indicate that the President authorized the release of classified information, but it was different information - a National Intelligence Estimate that had been classified pursuant to an executive order.

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dean/20060407.html

Posted by BlueinIdaho on April 7, 2006 at 11:16 AM

Chris,

Regarding distribution of sex offenders names and place of residence. There are many legal presidence set by the fundamentalist religious groups that have rallied for these types of laws. These laws have been tested for years. Please check your local area law. You are well within your legal rights to notify the public of dangerous people living within a community.

Posted by HybridFuel on April 7, 2006 at 11:18 AM

Senate vote shelves immigration bill

Posted by Kristen on April 7, 2006 at 11:18 AM

just back from the road and need some sleep but i have to say that after the marvel of the face shot heard round the world and the port fiasco i figured we’d have some down time on presiduncel beat downs….but to my delight and amusement delay and libby have brought forth even more ways to pound this turd president and his vile policies into the ground….

bet the trolls will be thick in here tonite. remember your ice cream rations are at risk!

Posted by gregg on April 7, 2006 at 11:20 AM

Good Morning Greg! I’m still on a diet so willing to give my share of ice cream up :)

Posted by Kristen on April 7, 2006 at 11:24 AM

The issue for distribution of sex offenders names and residence is an interesting one.

There are many wealthy people who are able to seal their cases and never go to trial. In our region of the country they are testing the cases where people seal the court case. A particular case where a lawyer was indided several time on sexual harrassment but each time paid off and had the case sealed. The argument presented was the Constitution of United States require court cases to be free and open for the safety and security of the society as a whole. The safety adn security of the society as a whole should prevail over the coverup of an individual.

Posted by HybridFuel on April 7, 2006 at 11:30 AM

So an article in my local paper this morning caught my eye and my curiosity got the better of me and so I went over to look in on the Crazy Moonbat in Florida (Katherine Harris)

She actually put out a press release yesterday to say that she agreed with Jebbie’s assessment that she was too self centered and needed to focus. She is trying to rally the party behind her which I think she has a better chance of contracting VD from a toilet seat than she does of getting any support. I was looking for any groups that might be endorsing her campaign and there is nothing.

Posted by Kristen on April 7, 2006 at 11:30 AM

Howdy All!

hi Pam: re Rove’s talk this afternoon. wouldn’t it be nice if Fitzy gives him someting new to talk about.

Posted by bb on April 7, 2006 at 11:33 AM

Hybrid, there is a difference between sexual harrassment and sex offenders. Sexual harrassment laws are torts and therefore not punishable with prison time.

Posted by Kristen on April 7, 2006 at 11:33 AM

Finally, someone else has come to the same conclusion as I did concerning the President’s sharing of classified information.

“The NIE document does not name Valerie Plame anywhere in it. How do you get from that document to Plame? And if you’re going to declassify a document to make your case, you do so in a press conference or a formal announcement, you don’t leak it.”

Posted by Melissa on April 7, 2006 at 09:45 AM

Here’s the point. Whether some might argue the legal authority in this matter, they can not argue that the ethics involved were questionable, and made more questionable by the fact that the information was not shared through press conference.

Posted by Marine on April 7, 2006 at 11:46 AM

I agree with Think-about-it that the American people need a lobbyist. We could start a party, call it the Peoples’ Party, and elect leaders based on sending in paper ballots, and there would be no party affiliations. Now there’s a scenario for you. No party afiliations. Just leaders who represent the American people. Wow! This idea could get some traction.

George Bush will go down in history as the most corrupt, incompetent, bought American President ever. Along with those he’s in bed with.

I sort of wonder what his old man thinks of his son’s performance. I’m presuming he’s properly ashamed.

Bush is a Do-Nothing President. At least, as far as the American people go.

It seems that the things he has done, however, fall under the category of “crimes and misdemeanors”.

There’s a move afoot to not buy gas from Exxon and Mobil! I believe the American people have performed similar feats in the past, so I know we can do it again to get our point across that these oil companies (nor Bush and Cheney) do not have us by the short hairs. BOYCOTT EXXON AND MOBIL!

Posted by Rally on April 7, 2006 at 11:47 AM

hey {{{j}}}! Good to see you sister! Hope you are doing well. We been missin ya!

Posted by jen on April 7, 2006 at 11:48 AM

the evolution vs. creation argument is one of my favorites. evolutionists will just build and build evidence to support their view as time marches on ( assuming microscopes and such devices are outlawed ) and creationists will forever be stuck with sad old fantastical bible stories and will never get any new data unless the big poppa ( or is it the big momma? ) arrives on the scene. so this is like playing baseball and only your team gets any at bats:

from the wall street urinal:

Two New Discoveries Answer Big Questions In Evolution Theory April 7, 2006; Page B1

Even as the evolution wars rage, on school boards and in courtrooms, biologists continue to accumulate empirical data supporting Darwinian theory. Two extraordinary discoveries announced this week should go a long way to providing even more of the evidence that critics of evolution say is lacking.

One study produced what biblical literalists have been demanding ever since Darwin — the iconic “missing links.” If species evolve, they ask, with one segueing into another, where are the transition fossils, those man-ape or reptile-mammal creatures that evolution posits?

In yesterday’s issue of Nature, paleontologists unveiled an answer: well-preserved fossils of a previously unknown fish that was on its way to evolving into a four-limbed land-dweller. It had a jaw, fins and scales like a fish, but a skull, neck, ribs and pectoral fin like the earliest limbed animals, called tetrapods.

3,458 to 0 and we are still in the first inning

Posted by gregg on April 7, 2006 at 11:49 AM

You all want to solve a problem concerning sex offenders? Remember that female teacher a few weeks ago who had a sexual relationship with a 13 year old student of her’s? Make sure that no other female is ever let off the hook like she was. I was absolutely sickened by the message that sent, that women are somewho of less threat to reoffend and so should be let off easier than men.

Posted by Marine on April 7, 2006 at 11:52 AM

Happy Friday Jen!

Posted by Kristen on April 7, 2006 at 11:53 AM

Hey xdebx, I just saw your post with the quote from Wayne Madsen. I tried to find it over at Wikimedia so I could quote it directly in a post to my Law Dems membership, but I can’t find the article. Could you put the link to it up so I can see the whole thing?

Posted by JSCram on April 7, 2006 at 11:55 AM

In other words, I think that anyone in a position of authority, such as teachers are, should be treated most severely when infractions involving their subordinates are committed. This is our only chance to see that those ill fit for the position are removed for good.

Posted by Marine on April 7, 2006 at 11:56 AM

Marine, not all female teachers are ‘let off the hook’…that was a plea agreement she made with the prosecutors and it had something to do with not wanting to put the young man on the stand.

I absolutely agree that it is disgusting and I would flip out if some woman violated my son in that manner. In my particular state we have far more male teachers getting away with it than the few female teachers that have done the same thing.

The stories about the female teachers is spread nationwide and the stories about male teachers barely makes the local news and generally omits the guys name.

Posted by Kristen on April 7, 2006 at 11:57 AM

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TrackBack URL for this entry: http://www.democrats.org/cgi-bin/mt-tb.cgi/795

By Stupid Selfish Liberal Name Jacker

April 7, 2006 12:03 PM | Link to this

Governor Dean on President Bush’s Role in CIA Leak Scandal Posted by Tim Tagaris on April 6, 2006 at 03:46 PM Email this Print this Blog this Associated Press:

Vice President Dick Cheney’s former top aide told prosecutors that President Bush authorized the leak of sensitive intelligence information about Iraq, according to court papers filed by prosecutors in the CIA leak case. Before his indictment, I. Lewis Libby testified to the grand jury investigating the CIA leak that Cheney told him to pass on information and that it was Bush who authorized the disclosure, the court papers say. According to the documents, the authorization led to the July 8, 2003, conversation between Libby and New York Times reporter Judith Miller.

Governor Dean responded thusly:

“The fact that the president was willing to reveal classified information for political gain and put the interests of his political party ahead of Americas security shows that he can no longer be trusted to keep America safe.”

Comments - 28 Show Comments and Trackbacks »

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It’s hard out here for a traitor pimp…

That will be the future jailbird Bush’s new theme song.

Other than as an attempt to discredit Wilson, what other possible reason could there be to out Plame? Why did they not warn other reasources still working undercover, behind enemy lines, as employees of Brewster Jennings before outing Plame? Did they not know any resource caught would be executed?

Not only did Bush and Cheney take a valuable resouce (Valerie Plame) out of the real war on terror in the mideast, but they also took the under cover company (Brewster Jennings) out of the war as well. Undercover resources lost their lives because of what Bush and Cheney did. Plus, they have endangered every man, woman and child in America.

How can Bush or Cheney use “interests of national security” under “inherent authority” as an excuse to out Plame and everyone associated with Brewster Jennings?

That teasonous act actually did major harm to our national security. It endangered the lives of every American, both at home and abroad. Plus the outing was a death sentence to every resource associated with Brewster Jennings who was working undercover in hostile countries, even countries like Saudi Arabia.

Neither Bush nor Cheney has a valid reason for outing Valerie Plame and Brewster Jennings. Those undercover agents were not expendable and did not have to die so Bush/Cheney could protect their lie.

Both Bush and Cheney must be arrested and tried for high crimes of treason, for which the maximum penalty is d e a t h!

Posted by KevinSchmidtVA on April 6, 2006 at 03:58 PM

Geez, why can’t Dean keep his mouth shut? Why can’t he let the facts come out and let Bush get impaled on his own sword. Bush doesn’t need help proving his incompetence.

Posted by anke on April 6, 2006 at 04:33 PM

We should be careful before jumping to conclusions so as not to be embarressed…. Dean speaks too quickly too often. Let’s MAKE 100% sure that the whole truth is out.

Posted by gander on April 6, 2006 at 04:53 PM

Plame Affair

Wiki Revision as of 22:09, 13 January 2006

A possibility has been raised by several sources that a death may have occurred as a result of this leak. Under the Espionage Act, this could lead to a death penalty case. The CIA Wall of Honor has stars representing agents killed on duty. Named stars are used where information is not classified, and anonymous stars are used when the agent’s name cannot be released. Below the stars is a chronological Book of Honor. An anonymous star was added to the wall between named stars that can be dated to deaths on February 5, 2003 and October 25, 2003. The anonymous star thus fits the timing of the Plame leak. Wayne Madsen, a reporter and former NSA employee, has claimed, “CIA sources report that at least one anonymous star placed on the CIA’s Wall of Honor at its Langley, Virginia headquarters is a clandestine agent who was executed in a hostile foreign nation as a direct result of the White House leak.”

Posted by xdebx on April 6, 2006 at 04:57 PM

The Media’s Chance At Redemption

When, oh when, will the U.S. “mainstream media” finally stop hemming and hawing, parsing and understating? When will they simply go for the jugular to confirm what any thoughtful American has already learned from “less reputable” but increasingly relevant alternative information sources: that from the beginning of the Bush administration, invading Iraq has always been as much an article of faith for the president as, well, promoting faith over reason? […]

Iraq is in the midst of what many believe is a civil war. The White House treats the sectarian violence as coming out of nowhere, a complete surprise that couldn’t possibly have been anticipated. But basic reporting would show that this isn’t the case. Before the invasion, Bush repeatedly ignored warnings that exactly this might transpire, declaring blithely that the war would be a cinch, and the aftermath a cakewalk. In the most recent memo to surface, Bush predicted that it was “unlikely there would be internecine warfare between the different religious and ethnic groups,” and Blair concurred. Do they pull these assertions out of their hats, wing colossal decisions like they’re predicting basketball championships? Let’s see some hard scrutiny of the presidential decision-making process, and some explicit reporting on the many examples like this for which Bush continues to escape responsibility—and on the role of artful double-talk and media incompetence in making this Houdini act possible again and again.

Posted by PeppermintLizzy on April 6, 2006 at 05:02 PM

Do we know if Cheney was lying that Bush authorized the leak? I mean, I wouldn’t put it past Bush to authorize. But I also wouldn’t put it past Cheney to bypass him and lie about authorization. Either scenario sucks. Remember, though, Cheney shoots half a guy’s face off and was able to get the VICTIM to apoligize for it!

Posted by RoseZ on April 6, 2006 at 05:04 PM

Anke? Why can’t you keep your mouth shut?

But Atrios may speak:

It’s probably reasonable that the president can declassify whatever he wants, or at least I haven’t really seen an especially strong argument to the contrary, but that doesn’t mean that the president can declassify stuff, show it to Judy Miller, and then turn around claim the stuff is still classified. That’s where this argument falls apart. Posted by PeppermintLizzy on April 6, 2006 at 05:08 PM

Posted by gander on April 6, 2006 at 04:53 PM

go back to the GOP blog.

Posted by BlueinIdaho on April 6, 2006 at 05:20 PM

Why should I when I’m not a Republican? We shouldn’t be shooting ourselves in the foot so often. Don’t you care about accuracy and image to the voters?

Posted by gander on April 6, 2006 at 05:39 PM

Here Gander.

Posted by DeLLBerto on April 6, 2006 at 05:55 PM

Posted by gander on April 6, 2006 at 05:39 PM

I absolutely care about accuracy—that’s why we should not have gone into Iraq on yesterdays information that was questionable at best. But King George couldn’t give a fig about accuracy which is why he tried to stamp it out when Plame’s husband blew the whistle.

Saw your name at the GOP blog….

Posted by BlueinIdaho on April 6, 2006 at 05:56 PM

Bush’s handling of this reminds me of a character in a book I’ve been reading.

A juvenile delinquent is suspected of a crime but can’t be charged because of lack of evidence. He brags to friends that he has outsmarted the police. The principal of his school says, “Sounds like our —-. That boy has delusions of adequacy.”

Spunky is a spoiled brat who has gotten away with every underhanded thing he has done his whole life. He schemes to get around the rules, lies when caught, denies any personal knowledge, marginalizes his own involvement, demands accountability of others, and promises to get to the bottom of it…then does nothing and smirks knowing no one can touch him.

These continuing revelations and the knowledge that Bush leaks information when he condemns others for doing it, just makes him look that much more devious and sneaky. His supporters can talk all they want about it not being against the law for the President to declassify national security information and leak it.

But we all know that he was wrong about the WMD. And now we now know that he purposely leaked information selectively to fool us. And our troops are stuck in Iraq being shot at even today because of it. Nearly 3,000 are dead and 20,000 have been gravely wounded. An entire CIA operation was exposed and their decades of work destroyed.

He betrayed the trust of the American people. The Commander-in-Chief undermined his troops and his intelligence forces. Maybe it’s not against the law, but it’s important. We might not be able to touch him legally, but we can get to his Republican-controlled Congress this fall.

Somebody has to be held accountable for this career juvenile deliquent’s behavior. This Republican Congress has refused to act as a check and balance to this dishonest, incompetent president (and vice president), so they must take the fall for him.

Throw the bums out.

Posted by SandyH on April 6, 2006 at 06:32 PM

How sad, our country now has leaders who serve themselves and not society!! We need to do an overhaul on Leadership in our country. Democrats, get out there, campaign and vote and stop this disgrace and dishonor that has blemished our country’s moral standings!!!

Posted by Minkalis on April 6, 2006 at 06:38 PM

Unsurprisingly Digby:

[…]

George W. Bush cannot be given a free pass on this. If the Democrats win the congress in the fall, we must insist that they ignore the pundits like that brownnosing GOP sycophant Chris Matthews and call these people to account for their actions. The GOP has been pushing this vision of the all-powerful executive for decades, from watergate to Iran Contra to this, and the Democrats have failed to put the stake into its heart. They have to put a stop to it once and for all.

I agree.

Posted by PeppermintLizzy on April 6, 2006 at 06:54 PM

Kerry is RIPPING “Little Jr.” and Tweety is trying to act like a “JOURNALIST”

(Maybe Tweety doesn’t know about Harry Shearer’s DeLay & Tweety mutual suck up tape from 2 days ago, where the discussion was about Hillary being “…Nothing worse than a Woman Know It All”) Franken had it, Jay Marvin had it.

Why doesn’t Tweety? Doesn’t that idiot realize that once they sit on a set they ARE ON THE SATELLITE??? (So the local stations can callibrate the feed).?????

Posted by DPD on April 6, 2006 at 07:26 PM

GOD!!!!!

I’ll vote for Kerry AGAIN!!

Posted by DPD on April 6, 2006 at 07:32 PM

To think that this can slide by is out of the question!Leaking this information is high treason!Good Americans have given their lives,and I cant believe it was so these spinsters can figure out ways to take our freedom away!They are calling for this country to Wake Up!If you want freedom,you have be willing to do what it takes.Howard Dean is a committed man,and he cant do it alone!You cant be a real democrat,and then withdraw your Democracy Bond when something comes up you dont like.All of a sudden you forget the other 99%?Freedom isnt perfect. its a Process!

Posted by virgo on April 6, 2006 at 07:56 PM

“…he can no longer be trusted to keep America safe.”

Governor Dean should have added Bush can no longer be trusted to keep America safe from the unchecked encroachments of the despotism of his own Executive Branch.

The best argument for a strong new Democratically-controlled Congress to restore the Legislative Branch’s Constitutional function as a check and balance on the Executive Branch is George Bush’s repeated claims to his autocracy.

Just as to Mr. Bush’s unscientific mind, science fantasy is just as valid as scientific facts; his take on what is but his legal fantasy and what is established legal interpretation of documented law based on case precedent must be suspect because it is similarly murky and self-serving.

It amounts to: “I can do it because I say I can do. We are at war because I say we are at war, and because we are at war that gives me Constitutional permission to suspend the Constitutional restrictions on my Presidential powers, and if someone serving under me has done something I told them to and been caught doing it, I knew nothing about it. Besides, if I told them to do it, that “fact” alone should exempt both them and me from admitting it and betraying “national security” by explaining it or defending it. If it was done, it needed to be done and that’s that. How dare you question the President of the United States on any of his actions!”

Posted by geo-mason on April 6, 2006 at 08:00 PM

Lizzy,

When have you heard my voice? Oh, I get it, you don’t like what I write. So don’t read it, go back to watching Univision.

Posted by anke on April 6, 2006 at 08:11 PM

Isn’t Univision that NBC owned Spanish Language Station/ Network, with the goofy chubby guy and Gigante Sabato ?

And what’s the deal with all the shirtless guys?

Posted by DPD on April 6, 2006 at 08:43 PM

Hi Everyone - I’m new here but enjoying the comments. I found these comments on the NYT interesting from the aspect of “how” this might be spun by the culprits. Unfortunately I keep hoping and praying that Fitz is really going to dig in and hold on tight - and bring this cabal down!

But the political impact of the disclosure could be significant. It suggests that Mr. Libby, who has been charged with perjury and obstruction in the C.I.A. leak case, may argue as part of his defense that any information he leaked was on the instructions of his two superiors, Mr. Cheney and Mr. Bush. However, the sections of the N.I.E. that Mr. Libby said he was freed to discuss make no mention of Valerie Plame, the C.I.A. officer who was exposed in the course of the arguments over the intelligence, prompting the leak investigation.

Posted by Bamiyani on April 6, 2006 at 09:27 PM

Wow, Anke, you sound a bit like a racist.

Posted by PeppermintLizzy on April 6, 2006 at 10:11 PM

This story is interesting…and it also amplifies what I have been saying all along…that the Bush White House has been in the frame of mind all along that whatever their interest is, is in the interest of the American people…which leads us back to another reason why we see our sons and daughters dying in Iraq today. National security and the interests of ‘big oil’ are not synonymous…which, again, is the reason why you see us in Iraq today and the real villains (Iran and North Korea - and North Korea in particular because it is in striking distance of the USA), go unchecked by this administration. To me, looking at the record, I think this administration somewhere along the way thought they could buy off the American people with dreams and hopes of ‘free oil’ from the Middle East. Well, the price of M.E. oil will never be free for America because what it has cost us already in Iraq has far exceeded the value of any oil we might pump from that area of the world. Anyway, I think that we all know that Europe gets most of the oil from the M.E. and essentially we are fighting its war…somewhat in the way we found ourselves fighting the war of the French in IndoChina at the beginning of the Viet Nam Conflict. The tragedy and shame is if the American never see a drop of Iraqi oil after what it has cost them so far in the way of finances and American blood. Iraq will be ‘a tragedy of tragedies’ if we don’t find a way out of it soon.

tLP

Posted by theLonelyProfessor on April 7, 2006 at 12:11 AM

More food for thot:

Consider George Bush vs. FISA, re: http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/doj/fisa/

Which came first, ‘the chicken or the egg’?

I think we’re all aware that the chicken came first in the form of a cheerleader that found himself in the Reserves to avoid being sent to Viet Nam.

The ‘egg’, of course, ‘came later’.

For a person, like Bush, I also could have stayed home via ‘family connections’, but went ahead and ultimately ‘volunteered’ for combat duty in Viet Nam…today I ‘shudder’ at the thought of having a President like Bush in the Oval Office. For him, all of his life, it’s really been like having someone else do the ‘killing and the dying’ for you’ while you sit on the sidelines cheering on the slaughter.

This country is also going to owe some a big appology when all is said and done with concern to the Bush Administration which we know has gone out of its way to villify those who dared to speak out against what it was doing.

‘Loyalty to Texas’ and to the oil companies is not the same as ‘loyalty to America’ and to the ideals that most of us, who call ourselves American, ‘cherish’.

tLP

Posted by theLonelyProfessor on April 7, 2006 at 12:30 AM

I can’t help but notice this so I HAVE to rub it in.

Howard Dean, the Chairman of the Democratic Party is out and about with respect to the Media.He’s got NO problem answering the tough questions.He’s conducted himself quite well…..

On the contrary,Mr.Frankenstien, Chairman of Republican Party seems to be in hiding.LOL. Why is THAT, do you think? ;D

Posted by FreedomOfSpeechForComprehensiveImmigrationReform on April 7, 2006 at 12:32 AM

It does the democratic party little good to label anyone who doesn’t toe the party line as racist. When you do that you are simply becoming the same as the GOP who labels anyone who doesn’t toe the party line as unpatriotic or worse.

So please stop that. Simply wanting the laws to be enforced and illegal aliens to not be put at the front of the line (and that is what it is no matter how you try to spin it) hardly makes one a racist or anti democracy.

Until Democrats start acting like a party that cars about middle class America, and less about corporate America and pandering to latinos for their votes, they are no different than the ReThugs.

I used to be a registered democrat until the swiftboating of Paul Hackett by the DLC and, once again, no outcry from democrats about it. They simply toed the DLC party line which is to appease corporate America.

The only thing I believe democrats are different from ReThugs is protecting civil rights better, but the way they have rolled over for the ReThugs makes me think they no longer care about middle America as much as they do Corporate America and pandering for whatever votes they can.

They refuse to go with Russ Feingold in censuring the president even though the majority of America is pretty disgusted with Bush. They all took off like cockroaches when the light is turned on the second Feingold mentioned censure. Cowards, everyone of them.

They refuse to block a single bill that benefits corporate America, but work damned hard to make sure no bill gets passed unless it benefits illegal aliens. Gee I thought they had no power to block anything?

Remember that old nonsense? “Oh we can’t do anything to stop the evil ReThugs because we are in the minority and can’t do anything…boo hoo boo hoo”.

Remember that?

Suddenly they now have the power to stop any ReThug bill that targets illegal aliens. How the hell did that happen?

What illegals take from this country will never affect the wealthy elite in D.C. Not Frist, not Kennedy, practically none of them will ever have to worry about losing their jobs to illegals who will work for less wages.

BUT they sure made sure the Dumbya’s bill that made it against the law to negotiate for lower medicare bills was passed.

They refused to argue anything against the Iraqi war. Hillary is the worst of the lot, she is supposed to be a democrat not a DINO. Surprised she isn’t carrying a bible around in the halls of congress and wearing a NASCAR jacket with an NRA patch on it.

Same with Tailgunner Joe Lieberman (this years ZELL MILLER) and Diane Feinsten who never met a corporate lobbyist she wouldn’t get on her knees for while totally dissing her middle class American citizens.

Sorry but I am seeing less and less difference between Dems and ReThugs. Boxes is a true democrat, Feingold is a true democrat and a few others but damned few others. Sherrod Brown has already kissed the ring of the DLC.

Until Democrats take a stand on anything they will keep losing even though Americans have said they want them to take control of America’s congress. They refuse to do anything about the environment because it will offend their corporate pimps.

So stop defending them strictly because they are democrats, it only makes you look like the GOPers who drink from the same koolaid pitcher. Hold democrats accountable who refuse to be democrats.

That’s why I finally resigned from the democratic party and now call myself an Independent. I have contributed to Boxer’s campaigns and am contributing to Ned Lampson who is running against Joe Lieberman and would suggest you all do the same, otherwise the rest of the democrats can go climb a tree until they start acting like democrats and not frightened little girls.

Well that’s my rant for the night.

Posted by Buzz on April 7, 2006 at 02:19 AM

Lizzy,

Well, I do have racist tendencies which I am trying to overcome. I don’t care for rich white people, hillbillies, and rednecks. I don’t want to live in a neighborhood that has signs like “Mercado”, “La Taqueria” in the window or on storefronts. I don’t appreciate having to punch #1 on my phone when asked if I want to hear the message in English.

Pray for me!

Posted by anke on April 7, 2006 at 08:30 AM

First, this should be no surprise to anyone! Second, bush and cheney are no more than criminals that have gotten away with invading another Country, lied and deceived the american people, play robin hood and continue to take from the poor and give to the rich. Smear the reputation of our Country and make the americans look like incompetent morons since 51% supposedly voted him back in office. Third, the republicans were able to impeach President Clinton over a blow job and yet the dems can’t hang these corrupt war mongers with all the evidence stacked against them! I have no confidence in any of our government officials anymore. The dems need to come together and storm the doors of the white house and demand their resignations and start impeachment process! I am one American who is past sick of our Government and very disappointed in the media and the peopole who still back the monster in office.

Posted by pclgrand on April 7, 2006 at 10:21 AM

By David H.

April 7, 2006 12:03 PM | Link to this

I really find it hard to believe that a story this small has been elevated to such a position in the news. Let it rest, it is not that important, and to have such a fake “Christian” as Tom DeLay call her out with his condemnation of using the “Race Card” people need to stop being led around by anyone. And once and for all I would like for White Males to stop thinking they can say when the “Race Card” can be used.

By Huge

April 7, 2006 12:22 PM | Link to this

By Big Bad Elephant (The original)

April 7, 2006 10:19 AM | Link to this

RW,

Do you think that “Huge” is trying to tell us how well-endowed he is?

Thanks for noticing and sharing, pachyderm! (Any of various large, thick-skinned, hoofed mammals such as the elephant, rhinoceros, or hippopotamus) BTW, great retorts to the arguement, as usual!

By @@

April 7, 2006 12:32 PM | Link to this

Well it looks like we now have a “BLOG WITHIN A GULAG”

“BLOG AND TAN” may be a alternative location. He advocates civil discourse while at the same time, is one of those who posts under assumed names other than his own. He does this within the midst of the “name jackers”.

It would be a shame to let a fellow progressive take the heat for the ridiculous behavior of other progressives who can’t exhibit self-discipline.

By JordanandNiasMom

April 7, 2006 12:35 PM | Link to this

Speaking as a “Woman of Color” Cynthia McKinney is a crazy as a loon! I knew as soon as this incident was brought out that she assaulting the officer for no apparent reason and she would play the race card.

I don’t think that she realized that the incident was videotaped.

By Huge

April 7, 2006 12:35 PM | Link to this

ncgreybr, Thanks for the vote of confidence. I’ve noticed that today, for the first time, in a long while, most of the posts are not personal attacks. (Maybe my master plan is working a little!) And there seems to be a much stronger centrist and moderate influence in the writings today. Excellent!! Keep it up everyone. Madness doesn’t have to rule!

It must be the wrong time of day, as only two of the usual hate-mongers vented their spew on me. And as usual, it had absolutely nothing to do with the germain points of the argument that I made. Sad, but typical… I have always found that the best way to deal with these low-brow attacks is to simply ignore them and move on to intelligent and moral topics.

By @@

April 7, 2006 12:48 PM | Link to this

Who the hell can even find the “ncgreybr” post within all this text. Well I guess we’ll just have to miss the vote of confidence “ncgreybr” exhibited for the one who contributed this “HUGE” post into oblivion and beyond.

By Jack

April 7, 2006 12:51 PM | Link to this

THIS BLOG IS ABOUT THE RACE CARD BUT THE DEMORAT LOSERS CAN’T HELP BUT BASH BUSH ON THIS FORUM. WHAT STINKIN LOSERS YOU ARE. IF YOU BRING NO SOLUTIONS TO THE TABLE, YOU WILL LOSE AGAIN. HAHAHAHA!!

By Jack

April 7, 2006 12:55 PM | Link to this

Huge isn’t giant.

By Martha

April 7, 2006 12:59 PM | Link to this

Mike, you made her look too good. Try King Kong with longer hair.

By BBE (the one and only)

April 7, 2006 01:03 PM | Link to this

Huge Ego Big Pri*ck,

You have got to be kidding! What a smug, arrogant little Leftist you are. If anyone is “spewing hate” it is you dude.

You may want to focus your attention at the name-jackers and spammers, instead of the people who are trying to have civil (and entertaining) discourse here.

You also may want to try a different forum for your lengthy, repetitive, and sophomoric manifestos.

By BBE (the one and only)

April 7, 2006 01:07 PM | Link to this

Huge Ego Big Pr*ick,

@@ is right.

Why don’t you tell us the exact time that your new best friend ncgreybr posted so we can track back?

By Dan McClain

April 7, 2006 01:08 PM | Link to this

As a native born Atlantan I am embarrassed by Cynthia McKinney. I honestly believe that deep down she is a racist with a rotten attitude. The so called apology she made on the House floor was done after being prodded by the black caucus members. That shows this was not a heart felt apology at all. Then just today her ‘entourage’ and private guard insults and tries to intimidate a legitmate question from a reporter saying he would put his ‘a* in jail’. Folks, she is pure ghetto. She has no business in public life and I hope to God she gets replaced with someone with class and dignity. I hope this grand jury helps the replacement process along a bit further. An entourage? Get real.

By Andrea

April 7, 2006 01:11 PM | Link to this

I’ve been waiting for an opportunity to comment on the cartoon, but everytime I would check, the site looked strange. I thought I was in the wrong place and now I’ve forgotten what I wanted to say.

Can somebody tell me what’s going on here.

By Huge

April 7, 2006 01:18 PM | Link to this

I didn’t think it would take very long to get the usual response out of the usual suspects here…

In point of fact, not once have these posters made any relevant or constructive analysis of my “manifesto”. I predicted this and will predict nothing but more of the same. Only personal attacks, lacking in intellect and abounding in extremism. But much, much worse, is the absolute lack of any human feeling other than hatred and violence in these replies.

Many here need healing. I do not pity them…

By racecard

April 7, 2006 01:33 PM | Link to this

I am not very fond of Cynthia McKinney, but she has a point. If you want proof, color yourself black or brown and try to get through airport security..You would want to bash up not one, but all of them!! Using terrorism as a shield, these criminals are terrorizing American citizens.. why? Because they are the “wrong” color.

Its still going on, friends, wake up and remember, another day, another reason and it could happen to you!

And when it happens to you, discrimination will take on a MONSTROUS significance in your life. Its not easy to get over it, my friend!! Because it happens again and again and again and again and again…

Hope you get the point!

By Ken from California

April 7, 2006 01:34 PM | Link to this

Atlanta never fails to deliver…why tape soap operas at home when I can just read the AJC for the latest installment of “As The Atlanta Turns”!

From vindictive county sheriffs to nepotist community college administrators, from corrupt mayors and their girlfriends to unlicensed district attorneys practicing in front of a judge with impunity, from county home foreclosure money given away to shyster boyfriends to emotionally off-balance congresspersons, I can’t think of a more entertaining city in this country!

Cynthia McKinney is a living, breathing cartoon character. She should have her own reality TV show with Flavor Flav!

By Daniel

April 7, 2006 01:41 PM | Link to this

The government has betrayed us once again. The immigration bill now before Congress, endorsed by the president is a sell-out. Al Americans should be outraged. Most of us are just heartbroken. When are they going to do something for us? We are a nation betrayed.

By Jack

April 7, 2006 01:50 PM | Link to this

Daniel. When we quit being a bunch of sheep. Apathy will take us down. What happened to the flags being flown after 9/11?

By Huge

April 7, 2006 01:52 PM | Link to this

Of course, extremist hatred has existed for a long time. From the SS to the Klan to today’s talk radio. In today’s America, outright bigotry is not allowed in public, so it hides out in the crevasses of society, like the Internet, especially on sites like this. Many people have very strong opinions and are very willing to share them. Some have exceedingly little self-control and restraint.

I am not impressed by someone’s intellect or lack thereof. I am mainly interested in the quality of their soul, or lack thereof. Thuggery and emotional terrorism have tried to rule the day here for a long while. It is destined to fail.

By BBE (the one and only)

April 7, 2006 01:52 PM | Link to this

Andrea,

It’s called “spamming”. That and “name-jacking” are tricks done by obnoxious people who try to shut everybody up that they don’t agree with, but are too lame to argue with.

That and publishing tedious manifestos that nobody is interested in.

By @@

April 7, 2006 02:00 PM | Link to this

Huge:

I don’t think so much about myself with your incessant postings. I think about the Andrea’s ^^^ whose contributions get lost in the shuffle. I walk away and do other things during your episodes.

She’s one of the innocents that you profess to concern yourself with.

One brief post under your original name, reflecting your opinions only. Then…….let the chips fall where they may. I don’t make the same assumption that you do. Everybody looking on and participating has enough intelligence to make up their own minds.

Obviously poor Andrea hasn’t recollected her thought yet. But I’m eager to hear it when she does.

By BBE (the one and only)

April 7, 2006 02:03 PM | Link to this

Daniel,

The bill died, so you can stop moaning.

By DavidU

April 7, 2006 02:06 PM | Link to this

There is no way I’m reading all that^^. I don’t care if it shows concrete proof that both Pres. Bush and Pres. Clinton are having an affair and Cheney just shot Katie Couric in a drive by.

There’s SPAM and then there’s That^^

By @@

April 7, 2006 02:13 PM | Link to this

DavidU:

Bush and Cheney are having an affair? Now that is newsworthy. Thanks for the heads up.

By BBE (the one and only)

April 7, 2006 02:16 PM | Link to this

DavidU,

Let’s think of a new name for the disaster at 11:39…

Blogglobal warming?

By @@

April 7, 2006 02:16 PM | Link to this

OMG, I read that wrong, it’s Bush & Clinton who are having the affair. Stop the presses…..DavidU has breaking news!!!!!!!!

By Kellie Pickler

April 7, 2006 02:35 PM | Link to this

What’s a pinko???

By DavidU

April 7, 2006 02:41 PM | Link to this

@@- you can only get that type of scoop from me, right here on ML’s blog. CNN….Fox…MSNBC, they don’t have the quality of sources I have. I practically invented the phrase “unnamed White House source” ;)

BBE- I thought you didn’t believe in those global warming theories? But regardless, I vote Yea to: “Blogglobal warming”. Though I reserve the right to change my vote if a better suggestion comes up.

later.

By hh

April 7, 2006 02:43 PM | Link to this

McKinney screwed up, but she’s still alot better than the environmental thugs Linder, Deal & Chambliss.

By clark

April 7, 2006 02:46 PM | Link to this

Kellie;

pinko n. Slang pl. a person who irritates the right by constantly being right and looking after the best interest of America. Also known as a Democrat.

amen

By getalife

April 7, 2006 02:53 PM | Link to this

Hell, that was a blogacane or blogado spinning through the blogsphere.

By BBE (the one and only)

April 7, 2006 02:55 PM | Link to this

DavidU,

I don’t believe in man made global warming, but I’ll make an exception in this case because it stinks as badly as excess methane.

I’m also open to better suggestions.

hh,

Pardon my ignorance, but who is the “environmental thug” you call “Deal”?

Watch your language btw, Huge Ego/Big Pri*ck doesn’t like it and will get very sanctimonious if you don’t show faux concern for your fellow human beings.

By BBE (the one and only)

April 7, 2006 02:58 PM | Link to this

K.P.

Democrat: Someone who blames America for everything bad in the world, particularly white Christians.

By BBE (the one and only)

April 7, 2006 02:59 PM | Link to this

getalife,

Good job using weather terminology. Huge Ego will relate to that.

By GaDemLib

April 7, 2006 03:07 PM | Link to this

What happened at 11:39 was that Andy had a meltdown and lost his sh!t completely. BushScandals, probably the same poster as Republican Family Values and Republican Fiscal Values, all respectable individuals with valid viewpoints, posted a few thoughts in a row, and Andy burst a blood vessel in his forehead. You can see the results for yourself. It was ugly, but we all knew it was going to happen one day. His Vietnamese rent-a-bride took the opportunity to escape with a Mexican while Andy was on the floor in shock in a pool of urine.

By BBE (the one and only)

April 7, 2006 03:09 PM | Link to this

I loooove phalic references. Count how many I use today. I’m still trying to meet my daily quota.

I am obssessed with pen!ses- I love well-endowed wankers, prefer pr!cks, am delighted with d!cks, motivated by members, plea for packages, desire d0ngs, crave c0ck, maybe even meat. It’s been so long since I had any of those it’s all I think about.

By @@

April 7, 2006 03:13 PM | Link to this

Getalife:

How about “Blog-ado-about-nothing”. I liked Blogado. It’s hard to pronounce two g’s…..g-g, ga ga, glub glub. Now I have a speech impediment.

I’ll go practice while I mop my kitchen floor. @@ is g-g-g-g-g-g-g-gone.

By BBE (the one and only)

April 7, 2006 03:14 PM | Link to this

Republican: One who preaches family values, but spreads a culture of corruption by lying, murdering, stealing, and cheating. One who complains about education, yet denies facts so they can push ridiculous mythology and fables on people, thereby setting back human advancement by hundreds of years. See “child molester.” Also see “Muslim extremist” (synonym).

By clark

April 7, 2006 03:21 PM | Link to this

3:09 and 3:14. that takes away the fun if the blog.

amen

By Buy Danish

April 7, 2006 03:25 PM | Link to this

@@,

I LOVE that!

By Conservatives Molest America's Children

April 7, 2006 03:27 PM | Link to this

By Little Pinko Angels, So Innocent, So Sweet April 7, 2006 09:28 AM | Link to this By Conservatives Molest America’s Children April 7, 2006 09:15 AM The kink of reasoned responses to simple questions one should expect from the 24/7 posters to this blog, and the reason their audience is so limited .. their egos so inflated.

As long as we got you hinged on our every move what else matters, duma-ss? You’re a 24/7 groupie of mine., Once again the Christian mind of a morale midget strikes, Oh, I’m sooo wounded.

By Daniel

April 7, 2006 04:01 PM | Link to this

Jack: Thank you. BBE: What are they going to do next? Most American want the law enforced. There are 12 Million here now. when the government gives a free pass to those here over five years; don’t you agree there will be 25 Million more lined up? And, by the way, why didn’t the government force Mexico to seal its border? This is so typical of this government. Mangoes for nukes, anyone?

By Little Pinko Angels, So Innocent, So Sweet

April 7, 2006 04:04 PM | Link to this

Once again the Christian mind of a morale midget strikes, Oh, I’m sooo wounded.

I’m sorry, groupie, I didn’t mean to wound you.

morale- n. The state of the spirits of a person or group as exhibited by confidence, cheerfulness, discipline.

I’m a happy midget??

By Pink Salmon

April 7, 2006 04:10 PM | Link to this

I’m a lefty liberal short and stout. Here is my wisdom, here is clout:

Bush Sucks Bush Sucks Bush Sucks Bush Sucks Bush Sucks Bush Sucks Bush Sucks Bush Sucks.

Bush Sucks Bush Sucks Bush Sucks Bush Sucks Bush Sucks Bush Sucks Bush Sucks Bush Sucks.

Bush Sucks Bush Sucks Bush Sucks Bush Sucks Bush Sucks Bush Sucks Bush Sucks Bush Sucks.

The End.

By getalife

April 7, 2006 04:12 PM | Link to this

Why?

By Andy

April 7, 2006 04:13 PM | Link to this

Warning to NG-A/ GADemLib: One more post about my family and yours in fair game. You have been duly notified.

Wanker.

By Little Pinko Angels, So Innocent, So Sweet

April 7, 2006 04:16 PM | Link to this

clark: Amen.

By getalife

April 7, 2006 04:28 PM | Link to this

Mr. McClellan was in the somewhat odd position of not disputing that President Bush was involved in the disclosure of hitherto classified information, while describing any such disclosure as being in the public good.

Lying is now “for the public good”. Man, Clinton has got to be loving this.

By Little Pinko Angels, So Innocent, So Sweet

April 7, 2006 04:34 PM | Link to this

Pink Salmon: I think you are giving the pinkos too much credit, it’s more like this:

Bush Sucks, Bush Sucks, Bush……..er, what was I saying?

The End.

By Daniel

April 7, 2006 04:46 PM | Link to this

gal; Along with the rest of America. George apparently told Dick to tell Scooter to “out” Plame. George then lied to America about “leaks”. Question: “Did George lie under oath to Fitzgerald?” Remember, they pretended not to know the culprit. Now, all of us know. Sad day for us all.

By Little Pinko Angels, So Innocent, So Sweet

April 7, 2006 04:51 PM | Link to this

First the New York Times beat the drums for a special prosecutor to investigate who provided accurate information to reporters, albeit supposedly in violation of the law. Among the results: A Times reporter went to jail.

Now we witness the astonishing spectacle of newspapers trying to spin a scandal out of a legal disclosure of information to the press. GayPatriot aptly describes it as “the Orwellian worldview of Bush-haters where releasing facts means having something to hide.” Maybe we can’t expect better from political partisans, but journalists are supposed to stand for the neutral principle of the public’s right to know. If they pervert that principle in the pursuit of a partisan program, they will find it harder to assert it when it serves their purposes, whatever those purposes may be.

By Daniel

April 7, 2006 04:58 PM | Link to this

Why can’t he tell the truth?

By @@

April 7, 2006 05:03 PM | Link to this

I’m sorry DavidU, I know it’s not that important, but everytime I come back to the computer, I see this cartoon.

This is an artistic critique. It doesn’t even look like Cynthia McKinney. She’s not that heavy, her hair is parted on the wrong side, and that face…….whose face is that?

O.K., I’m pretty sure I’m done, until the next time, that is.

By Conservatives Molest America's Children

April 7, 2006 05:06 PM | Link to this

April 7, 2006 02:58 PM | Link to this K.P.

Democrat: Someone who blames America for everything bad in the world, particularly white Christians.

We agree on one thing, white Christians are bad

By Andy

April 7, 2006 05:10 PM | Link to this

Dam-n,

I just woke up from my stupor after I spased out and flooded this site with random cut and pasted posts at 11:39. My pants are wet and my Asian rent-a-bride is gone. Someone told me she left with a Mexican. First they steal my job, then they steal my wife! Who will support me now? For some reason I never make money off my ebay comic book business. My wife told me something about gross profit vs net profit, but I couldn’t understand her American. I only speak Texan. Oh well, back to the tirades until they cut off my cable because my wife isn’t here to pay it.

By Andy

April 7, 2006 05:11 PM | Link to this

Ok wanker, yours IN fair game!!! Stop disriminationing me!!!

By Buy Danish

April 7, 2006 05:13 PM | Link to this

Daniel,

Why don’t you tell us what you think should be done to reform immigration, and how Ted Kennedy and Harry Reid are helping the process.

By Buy Danish

April 7, 2006 05:22 PM | Link to this

We agree on one thing, white Christians are bad

Conservatives Molest America’s Children,

Who’s “WE”? You, Candide, and…? Thanks for admitting YOUR true bigotry and racism though. The rest of the liberal wankers pretend to be tolerant and caring souls.

Please OUT the rest of the anti-white Christian bigots for me, so it comes from an objective source.

By Little Pinko Angels, So Innocent, So Sweet

April 7, 2006 05:34 PM | Link to this

My, oh my, Midori is rather tedious today:

By Andy April 7, 2006 05:10 PM Dam-n, I just woke up from my stupor after I spased out

What a sad, stupid, pitiful life one must lead to have it reduced to stalking people on a blog. God, that so weird. You really have to be on the bottom to resort to sh-it like this.

And what is the obsession these pinkos have with urine? Is this some fa-g deal, it’s the last thing I would ever do, associate another man with urine. Are they hoping someone p** in their mouths? Does this kind of talk excite these little que-ers?

By Andy

April 7, 2006 05:34 PM | Link to this

Ok, ok, I get the hint. I’ll go for psychiatric help.

By Proud to be Dubya

April 7, 2006 05:38 PM | Link to this

Just Thursday, Bush emphasized the importance of straight talk. “When the president says something, he better mean what he says,” he told a North Carolina audience. “In order to be effective, in order to maintain credibility, words have got to mean something. You just can’t say things in the job I’m in and not mean what you say.”

In September 2003, Bush said he was distressed by the CIA leak case. “If somebody did leak classified information, I’d like to know it, and we’ll take the appropriate action,” he said.

White House spokesman Scott McClellan said at the time: “If anyone in this administration was involved in it (the CIA leak), they would no longer be in this administration.”

By GaDemLib

April 7, 2006 05:44 PM | Link to this

I don’t have anything against whites, but christians are certainly bad.

By Daniel

April 7, 2006 05:45 PM | Link to this

BD: They aren’t. 1) Force Mexico to respect our border. Bush got nothing for us. 2)Enforce the law. I.e. no amnesty. 3)Raise the minimum wage so Americans want the jobs the illegals take. 4)Do not capitulate to Big Business who covets cheap labor. 5)Jail those who hire illegals. I just called my Senator. You do the same, BD. Make a stink about this. Do you like the bill that they were crowing about?

By Buy Danish

April 7, 2006 06:05 PM | Link to this

Daniel,

Why do you always have to be such a p**? Yes, I called my Senator(s) and Congressman.

They have made it so complicated it’s impossible to find any consensus. For starters, citizenship should have nothing to do with this.

I totally disagree with you about raising the minimum wage. Why do you think all these illegals are being hired in the first place? How many farmers would be put out of business if we forced them to pay their employees an unsustainable wage plus benefits?

They should exclude certain seasonal, low-skill jobs, particularly agricultural jobs, from minimum wage requirements and let the market determine the wage.

They should increase the number of legal, temporary, migrant workers who then go home at the end of the season.

The only reason to give have this ridiculous “if you’ve been breaking the law longer than the new arrivals” stuff is to prevent people from flooding the border to get amnesty.

Someone, tell me how we document how long an illegal has been here.

By eight charlie charlie

April 7, 2006 06:10 PM | Link to this

cynthia needs serious help… so do her constituents !!

By DavidU

April 7, 2006 06:10 PM | Link to this

@@- I don’t comment on a women’s weight. :)

By Daniel

April 7, 2006 06:23 PM | Link to this

BD: Here’s the problem. There are 11 million illegals here today. When we grant this “modified” amnesty program another 24 milion will be on their way. Is this leadership? How does this help us? Why doesn’t the government force Mexico to guard its border as a part of trade with us? Oh, by the way, an illegal forges documents to “prove” how long he’s been here. So much of what this government does benefits only the few. Talk with a grade school teacher or a nurse.

By Buy Danish

April 7, 2006 06:42 PM | Link to this

Daniel,

I’m still waiting for you suggestions. All you’ve done is B**.

Why isn’t Mexico as prosperous a country as the U.S.? Could it have something to do with having a different culture?

I’m happy that we have the Minutemen doing their best to stand guard right now. I guarantee you you’re not going to find an anti-war protesting leftist amongst them, despite Huge Ego’s claim that Liberals defend our country too.

BTW, Are you a teacher or a nurse? Is that the prism that you view things through?

By @@

April 7, 2006 06:43 PM | Link to this

DavidU:

A little comic relief, and then I’m gone for awhile.

By DavidU April 7, 2006 06:10 PM | Link to this @@- I don’t comment on a women’s weight. :)

It is a smart guy who practices that policy, but I think you just said ^^^ she was bigger than one woman. Two, three, four women???

Bye!!!

By Daniel

April 7, 2006 06:56 PM | Link to this

There are 5 at 5:45pm above. Answer one. No, I am neither. I work-out with a guy who teaches. He says there are a lot of kids who can’t speak english in our schools. Is this true? I suspect it is. Isn’t it the gpvernments job to protect the border? Why aren’t they doing this? They get the Brian J. Doyle Homeland Security award!

By Buy Danish

April 7, 2006 07:11 PM | Link to this

Daniel,

Youa ren’t interested in fixing anything. You’re only interested in blaming someone, namely Bush and Republicans for the problem.

By Daniel

April 7, 2006 07:24 PM | Link to this

If the shoe fits, wear it! Answer the frikkin question: Isn’t it the governments job to protect the border? Why aren’t they? Does law enforcement mean anything? Do you like the bill they are crowing about? Ok, you’re one of those. Maybe if you stick your head in the sand and pretend a little longer things will improve.

By Buy Danish

April 7, 2006 07:39 PM | Link to this

Daniel,

So you rely on people you meet in the gym to learn such profound details such as:

I work-out with a guy who teaches. He says there are a lot of kids who can’t speak english in our schools. Is this true? I suspect it is.

And to think, without this karma connection, you never would have known that fact!

By Buy Danish

April 7, 2006 07:41 PM | Link to this

Daniel,

This “immigration” problem has existed for decades. At least Bush is trying to get it fixed, although we can disagree with the details.

I know that this is not allowed, but tell me, WHAT DID CLINTON DO?

By finch

April 7, 2006 09:08 PM | Link to this

Buy Danish,

I know I’m entering this debate about immigration a little late, but Clinton did just what President Bush did during his first 4 years, and what his father did during his term, which is nothing.

I have it on better authority than Daniel about illegals in public schools, too. My sister in law is a special ed teacher in suburban Chicago, and has been for almost 30 years. She was warning us about the shocking increase in kids who knew no English starting 3 years ago.

As far as proving how long an “illegal” has been in the US, that shouldn’t be too hard. Put the burden of proof on them! If they don’t have a paper trail (rent receipts, medical bills, driver’s license or other ID) proving their length of stay, then back at the end of the line they go!! Of course, the devil is in the details…

The border wall idea just sucks. The Great Wall of China didn’t work. The Maginot Line didn’t work… and as this contest shows, a fence wouldn’t work.

“Anyway, it was ‘83 or some year right around there when we held The Fence climbing contest. See, people talked about building The Fence back then, too. The Fence along the Mexican border. To keep Them out.”

“At the time, the proposal was quite specific — a 17-foot cyclone fence with bob wire at the top. So a test fence was built at Terlingua, and the First-Ever Terlingua Memorial Over, Under or Through Mexican Fence Climbing Contest took place. Prize: a case of Lone Star beer. Winning time: 30 seconds.”

I’m only offering these views as as a starting point. I reserve the right to change my mind! Heh! It’s clear we have to do something, though. The immigration situation today stinks.

By Andrea

April 7, 2006 09:33 PM | Link to this

I guess the coast is clear now. Aside from striking a police offer which was wrong, the worst thing that Congresswoman McKinney did was turn racial discrimination into a trivial matter. There are discriminations against all races from different nationalities. She made the discrimination of African Americans seem insignificant by applying it so carelessly to herself.

She should be ashamed.

By Jay not jay

April 7, 2006 09:55 PM | Link to this

Daniel or finch….How do you propose we force Mexico to “guard” thier border to keep them out, they would have to station their own troops along our borders. They want them to leave.. And conversely, if we were to position our own troops and hardware on the border, wouldn’t that seem neoconish?

By Conservatives Molest America's Children

April 7, 2006 09:57 PM | Link to this

By Buy Danish April 7, 2006 05:22 PM | Link to this We agree on one thing, white Christians are bad

Conservatives Molest America’s Children,

Who’s “WE”? You, Candide, and…? Thanks for admitting YOUR true bigotry and racism though. The rest of the liberal wankers pretend to be tolerant and caring souls.

Please OUT the rest of the anti-white Christian bigots for me, so it comes from an objective source.

My present exposure to Christians begin their discourse with Liberals Lie And Steal, or By Little Pinko Angels, So Innocent, So Sweet and can’t seem, to me, to identify themselves beyond who they hate, or pleasure themselves mocking, My moniker is intended to mock them. I don’t belive they speak well for the faith they propose elevates their status on this earth. They are part of the reason I begain my journey to atheism. White is really beside the point, Chistians I’ve grown older with and been in the company of always seem to wear two things on their sleeves, pride in being forgiven and word of who they hate.

By Jay not jay

April 7, 2006 10:04 PM | Link to this

CMAC, you and candide need to hook up.

By Buy Danish

April 7, 2006 10:56 PM | Link to this

Jay

CMAC and Candide can’t differentiate between conduct and faith.

The idea that because you don’t like Christians you turn into an atheist is silly beyond belief. Pun intended.

finch,

Wow! Someone figured out that there was a problem 3 years ago! Where have you and Daniel been? Seriously! How long ago did “Bi-lingual education” become a fad and why is it important?

This is not some brand new phenomenon and it was one of the first things that Bush tried to fix. Like Social Security.

I think a good wall or fence is essential. As a wise Yankee once said -

Something there is that doesn’t love a wall…Good fences make good neighbors

Those Yankee farmers didn’t worry about disturbing “habitats” either. They figured out that the animal would move a few feet and find somewhere else to make itself at home.

Maybe the knew this because they weren’t setting policy from some urban enclave where red tailed hawks and pigeons were their only exposure to wildlife.

By Little Pinko Angels, So Innocent, So Sweet

April 8, 2006 06:49 AM | Link to this

The idea that because you don’t like Christians you turn into an atheist is silly beyond belief. Pun intended.

Not only that, it’s also an excuse. They made their “minds” up along time before they met me.

Besides which, if this person were truly objective or being honest they would make note that the most vicious, pointless, harmful discourse comes from those who don’t profess a love of God. They flame people’s families, their race, their religion without remorse.

By Little Pinko Angels, So Innocent, So Sweet

April 8, 2006 07:10 AM | Link to this

Republicans called yesterday for the resignation of the highest-ranking Democrat on the House ethics committee over reports of a federal investigation into purported irregularities in his campaign finances.

Rep. Alan B. Mollohan of West Virginia is under investigation for steering $178 million in federal money to nonprofits in his district run by people who are regular contributors to his political campaigns (Tsk Tsk).

“I believe it would be prudent at this point for Mr. Mollohan to resign from the ethics committee until this investigation is completed,” said Rep. Thomas M. Reynolds, New York Republican and chairman of the National Republican Congressional Committee.

Hey, at least they aren’t dragging his corpse through the streets like a democrat would do to a Republican.

By Conservatives Molest America's Children

April 8, 2006 09:15 AM | Link to this

By Little Pinko Angels, So Innocent, So Sweet April 8, 2006 06:49 AM | Link to this The idea that because you don’t like Christians you turn into an atheist is silly beyond belief. Pun intended.

Not only that, it’s also an excuse. They made their “minds” up along time before they met me.

Besides which, if this person were truly objective or being honest they would make note that the most vicious, pointless, harmful discourse comes from those who don’t profess a love of God. They flame people’s families, their race, their religion without remorse.

And those people would be? And the specific vicious, pointless, harmful discourse can be found where?

By seeker

April 8, 2006 09:31 AM | Link to this

Cynthia McKinney plays the race card. Christian Conservatives play the Jesus card.

Same difference.

By Conservatives Molest America's Children

April 8, 2006 09:34 AM | Link to this

Right. I want to run with this crowd and it’s ilk? I think not. “TOPEKA, Kan. - As legislators struggle with restricting picketing at funerals, the Rev. Fred Phelps and his Westboro Baptist Church have expanded their protests from services for dead soldiers to veterans’ hospitals, as well.

Members of the Topeka church were promising to picket Thursday at Walter Reed Army Medical Center in Washington, D.C., and carry signs that said, “Thank God for maimed soldiers.”

By Conservatives Molest America's Children

April 8, 2006 10:27 AM | Link to this

forgot the link

By Little Pinko Angels, So Innocent, So Sweet

April 8, 2006 11:09 AM | Link to this

Groupie: I have to ask a serious question of you- Are you retarded? Do you only read my posts? (O.K. So that was 2 questions.) If you can’t see the racism that the libs put out (mail order bride, you libs sure are the discriminators, Asians can do no better than that?) or the bigotry and hate, then there is something wrong with you mentally. Either that or you are 12 years old. Got you figured out, don’t I?

Why don’t you join the other thread, I don’t mind exposing you.

By Conservatives Molest America's Children

April 8, 2006 01:15 PM | Link to this

By Little Pinko Angels, So Innocent, So Sweet April 8, 2006 11:09 AM | Link to this Groupie: I have to ask a serious question of you- Are you retarded?

An attitude and response I would expect from a Christian … and one that precludes serious discourse. Kiss my a**

By Little Pinko Angels, So Innocent, So Sweet

April 8, 2006 04:54 PM | Link to this

Groupie: I’m not mocking you, I’m seriously concerned for your mental well being. The good Christian in me believes that you should seek help for your problem. Think about it, there is hope, you can break this addiction that you have for me. I know I am a powerful force but be strong, groupie!

By KABA

April 10, 2006 08:45 AM | Link to this

Mike got it right. The truth will set you free, Cynthia, if only you will face it.

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