Mike Luckovich

By Jeff

February 9, 2006 07:01 AM | Link to this

ML,

You VERY rarely ever put up something I can agree with, but you’ve done a fine job here. Now if only the reporters at your paper would make the same points in thier articles…

By Charles

February 9, 2006 07:21 AM | Link to this

Rats! When I saw the link “Meet your new editor’ I thought the AJC had come to their senses and fired Cynthia Tucker!

By N-GA

February 9, 2006 07:39 AM | Link to this

I am surprised that the whole world is surprised at radical Islam’s reaction to the cartoons. After a film maker is assassinated by a muslim radical for making a film critical of Islam, why be surprised? After an Islamic leader essentially signs a death warrant for Salman Rusdie after he authors a book that is viewed as anti-Islamic, why be surprised. The world should only be surprised if there had been no reaction to the cartoons.

By Buy Danish

February 9, 2006 07:59 AM | Link to this

A Catholic Priest has been shot dead by one of these hideous fanatics. Will we hear even a whisper of regret? Just imagine if a radical Imman was shot dead by an “infidel” - WWIII unleashed. Oh wait, it already is. This is serious stuff, and satire uses humor to get to the truth.

Love the cartoons. Ours and the Danes.

By Brian Curtis

February 9, 2006 08:02 AM | Link to this

Yes, it was stupid to post a cartoon that’s essentially blasphemous to a huge chunk of the world.

But it’s also important to remember that the REAL danger revealed by this is (as it always has been) religious fundamentalism itself.

Fundies are notoriously humorless and eager for violence—just two of the more obvious traits that illustrate their basic opposition to all of civilization. But then, I thought 9/11, Pat Robertson, and countless abortion-clinic bombinbgs demonstrated that too. Religious zealotry (Christian, Moslem, or any other) is a mental disorder.

By The Grinch

February 9, 2006 08:02 AM | Link to this

If you trun the picture upside down the muslim looks like Cynthia Tucker!

By John Rosemeyer

February 9, 2006 08:15 AM | Link to this

nice try, wimp!

By N-GA

February 9, 2006 08:16 AM | Link to this

All the Grinch’s wife needs to do is read his last post. That will answer her question “Grinch, why do you always wet the bed at night?”

By The Grinch

February 9, 2006 08:18 AM | Link to this

John, you looked at it upside down didn’t you……..you know you did.

By Buy Danish

February 9, 2006 08:32 AM | Link to this

Brian Curtis - It was not “stupid” to print the cartoons because some maniacs have decided that they are “blasphemous”. We cannot allow ourselves to be blackmailed by murderous thugs just because they find offense. There is no God-given right not to be “offended”. This is what the political correctness tyrants have wraught upon the world - hurt feelings are now punishable by death.

I remember being told by a limosine liberal subscriber to “The Nation” during the welfare wars that we had to keep doling out the dough because if we didn’t we would have “roving bands of brigands” to deal with. That did not happen and another left wing assumption was disproven once again.

We need to scare the living daylights out of these facsists - we do not need to appease them. We need to proceed with civility and good taste and the full weight and power of Western Civilization - not by expurgating humor and satire.

And this insistence on comparing Pat Robertson to the Ayatollahs and abortion center bombings is just so inappropriate. There just is no comparison to Robertson and the mad mullahs. BTW, we can thank President Carter for the mullahs ascendency to power in Iran - the cradle of Islamofascism and state sponsored terrorism.

Thanks peanut - fine mess you’ve gotten us into. Now please, observe some proper decorum and shut up so we can try to fix it before its too late. Presently you are nothing but a cheerleader for the bad guys masquerading as a saint of peace.

By Voice of Reason

February 9, 2006 08:36 AM | Link to this

Buy Danish - How do you think it’s going to be fixed? How do you end religious fascism?

By Scooter

February 9, 2006 08:40 AM | Link to this

Perhaps the liberals on this blog will tell us all the truth today? What I’m I thinking, they tell us everyday. So I guess I will have to see how long it takes for the compassionate and understanding left to stoop to higher discourse.

By cynic

February 9, 2006 08:44 AM | Link to this

Still a mangina huh pea-brain? “stoop to a higher discourse”?????-Have you already started drinking this morning?

By Edd Williams

February 9, 2006 08:52 AM | Link to this

Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. The moron got one right. Congratulations Lukovich!

By N-GA

February 9, 2006 08:52 AM | Link to this

I find it pathetically amusing to read about mad mullahs from someone who stupidly holds President Carter to blame while ignoring the Jim Jones, Jim Bakers, KKK and other Chriatian zealots who are reserving their special places in Hell. He calls the Progressives Fascists. Yet it is the Progressives who are genuinely compassionate and the current administration that is utterly Fascist.

What is even more amusing is that Buy Danish is proud of the fact that he/she is complicit in what this administration says and does. It just goes to reinforce the opinion that society should be careful about educating fools.

By Ricky

February 9, 2006 08:56 AM | Link to this

Brian Curtis, your rationale is extremely flawed and here is why. You try to compare Christian fundamentalism to Muslim fundamentalism. There is no comparios. Look at how big the protest are. This isn’t a small minority of people. You say it is comparable to people who bomb abortion clinics, which is a miniscule percentage of the Christian religion. You say that it is stupid to post a cartoon that offends people. Did you think it was stupid when the picture of the Virgin Mary with feces and pornography around here. Most of the left said it was okay, it was freedom of expression. But now you say it is not okay, it is dumb. Don’t want to offend anyone, unless of course it is Christians because who cares about them right. The left constantly harpes on the freedom of speech. But not now. You don’t see the ACLU coming out and saying that freedom of the press should be protected worldwide, I wonder why?

By gttim

February 9, 2006 08:56 AM | Link to this

“A Catholic Priest has been shot dead by one of these hideous fanatics. Will we hear even a whisper of regret?”

Depends. Was it one of the countless Catholic Priests who has been sexually abusing children? Was it one of the Catholic Priests or higher ups who have been covering up this sexual abuse for decades? Then, maybe not. But please, do defend them.

By getalife

February 9, 2006 09:00 AM | Link to this

I saw you draw this on CNN last night. I bet you are getting a lot of calls for interviews lately.

Since the AJC will not print the forbidden cartoons, [you can find them here.](http://getalifes.blogspot.com/

By getalife

February 9, 2006 09:02 AM | Link to this

Since the AJC will not print the forbidden cartoons, you can find them here.

By N-GA

February 9, 2006 09:02 AM | Link to this

Ricky wondered why the ACLU isn’t saying that the freedom of the press should be protected worldwide. I suspect it is because the “A” in “ACLU” is for “American”, not planet Earth. Besides, the Republican right has been doing enough stupid things to keep the ACLU busy for years to come (if the Chinese don’t own us by then).

By candide

February 9, 2006 09:05 AM | Link to this

Cartooning is just one weapon in the endless but necessary war on religion. Religion must be exterminated and any method is fine with me. Just think of it as sanitation.

By Scooter

February 9, 2006 09:05 AM | Link to this

Getalife, I have been and I have seen with my own two eyes. I left proof.

By candide

February 9, 2006 09:07 AM | Link to this

I’ll believe all you defenders of freedom of speech when an American newspaper has the guts to print a cartoon of the Virgin Mary getting knocked by the Holy Spook and you defend it.

By Scooter

February 9, 2006 09:07 AM | Link to this

Getalife, I have been and seen with my own two eyes. I left some proof at the bottom. Are you back in Vegas yet? I’ll check back in later.

By getalife

February 9, 2006 09:08 AM | Link to this

Since the AJC will not print the forbidden cartoons, you can find them here.

By Scooter

February 9, 2006 09:09 AM | Link to this

Getalife, I have been and seen with my own two eyes. I left some proof at the bottom. Are you back in Vegas yet? I’ll check back in later.

By getalife

February 9, 2006 09:17 AM | Link to this

Scooter,

Still stuck in La. Going to the doctor so I will talk to you later.

By Osama Bin Laden

February 9, 2006 09:22 AM | Link to this

A ha ha ha ha ha ha

By physicsDawg

February 9, 2006 09:25 AM | Link to this

we had to keep doling out the dough because if we didn’t we would have “roving bands of brigands� to deal with. -Buy Danish

Doling out the welfare is exactly what France does. And is exactly whay they had roving bands of disaffected youths (Muslim rioters) burning cars a few months ago.

By Ricky

February 9, 2006 09:26 AM | Link to this

N-GA, the ACLU has inserted its slanted view into world politics on numerous occsaions. To say they aren’t protecting the freedom of sppeech they claim to cherish becuase it doesn’t invlove an American newspaper is disingenious.
candide, once again your hatred of religion amazes me. You are obviously a bigoted and racist person.

By Brian Curtis

February 9, 2006 09:46 AM | Link to this

Ricky: Once again you’re inventing positions for the sake of attacking them; that’s called a “straw man” argument.

Yes, I do equate the violence of Christian fundamentalists do the violence of Muslim fundamentalists. That’s because fundamentalism, of ANY faith, is basically the same: hatred powered by fervent, irrational belief that you’re doing God’s work.

The leader of Iran called for the destruction of Israel; Pat Robertson calls for assassinations of foreign leaders. Is that supposed to be different somehow? It’s still violent insanity fueled by religious fanaticism.

As for the Feces Mary and “P** Christ” works… yes, I do find them stupid. I also find them to be protected speech, no matter how dumb and offensive they are. What’s disingenuous is when their creators claim to be “innocently surprised at the reaction.” That’s a lie; they knew full well who they were planning to offend and why.

That doesn’t excuse the violent reaction, of course; but it’s dishonest to create something purposely blasphemous and then act surprised that people are outraged by it.

Think of it this way: If you were the editor of an Israeli newspaper, would you publish a cartoon of Moses screwing a pig? Sure, it would be your right to (as freedom of expression demands); but would it be a smart idea?

By Ricky

February 9, 2006 09:55 AM | Link to this

Brian Curtis, I didn’t invent any positions. You are comparing a small part of the Christian faith that is violent to the Muslim faith in which large numbers are reacting violently to these cartoons. I will agree that fundamentalism is bad in any shape. My point about the Mary portrait or any painting is that there was no violent reaction from Christains even though that was blashpemous to Christians. Heres the difference between the leader of Iran and Pat Robertson. Robertson is one guy that is off his rocker. The other leads an entire country. By stating he wants to destroy Israel, he is stating the policy of his country. That is different.

By finch

February 9, 2006 09:56 AM | Link to this

“To say they (the ACLU) aren’t protecting the freedom of speech they claim to cherish becuase it doesn’t involve an American newspaper is disingenious.”

Ricky, what dimension are you in? The ACLU is the American Civil Liberties Union.

By Uberman

February 9, 2006 09:56 AM | Link to this

God is dead. The ignorant and uneducated have not figured that out yet, here or there, in the USA or in Damascus. Religion has caused more problems than it has solved. When the time comes that man has not excused to some supernatural privelege his pillaging of resources, foreign and domestic, for personal gain and power, then maybe there will be hope for our species.

Right now, I’d say America is on a downhill slope.

By Ricky

February 9, 2006 09:59 AM | Link to this

finch, dude really my earlier post. The ACLU has offered its opinion on many subjects outside of America.

By physicsDawg

February 9, 2006 09:59 AM | Link to this

candide, I believe your 9:07 post is invalidated by the “works of art” Brian Curtis just mentioned. People have been insulting Christians for years, with no riots, only peaceful protests. Of course, there are exceptions, but I don’t see you taking blame for any crime commited by people with no religion. So until you do, don’t lump all religious people together, and blame the particular religion.
My personal feeling is this, the Founder of Islam saw how far peacefulness got the Christians(Executed, crucified, and eaten by Lions), and thought he’d create a set of “rules” that would promote killing your enemies.

Yes, I think Islam was created by a Man. Just as the Catholic Church follows what men say. If you want to be a Christian, Read the New Testament and do what it says. Not the Pope or the SBC(southern baptist convention), as examples.

By N-GA

February 9, 2006 10:09 AM | Link to this

It is myopic to suggest that fundamentalist Muslims resort to violence, yet fundamentalist Christians do not.

Anyone saying so needs only be reminded of:

By Uberman

February 9, 2006 10:14 AM | Link to this

Myopic? Imagine a Republican being myopic, or a Nazi, or a Fascist, or a Theocracy.

By finch

February 9, 2006 10:15 AM | Link to this

Ricky, the only time the ACLU has offered an opinion on foreign developments is when an American citizen or media outlet is censored or charged by the government of another country.

It has never, ever taken a stand on what a foreign government does with foreign media or citizens.

The ACLU is NOT, as you allege, being disingenuous.

It’s the American Civil Liberties Union.

By finch

February 9, 2006 10:21 AM | Link to this

Is it my imagination, or does the guy with the beard and the sword in Mike’s cartoon look JUST like the prophet Mohammed?

Uh oh…..

By physicsDawg

February 9, 2006 10:22 AM | Link to this

I also take issue with a lot of people’s use of the word “Fundamantalist” here. The word you are looking for is “Fanatic,” or “Radical.”
For instance:
Webster: 1 a: a movement in 20th century Protestantism emphasizing the literally interpreted Bible as fundamental to Christian life and teaching b : the beliefs of this movement c : adherence to such beliefs 2 : a movement or attitude stressing strict and literal adherence to a set of basic principles.

When you refer to abortion clinic bombers, or Pat Robertson, You have people who are on the outside fringe. You can ask God, and he’ll tell you they aren’t one of his. Since you don’t seem likely to get there, you can ask in Hell, Satan also knows the scriptures quite well.

I can only answer for the “Christian religion,” because it’s what I know. When someone does something you want to question, look at the “literal basic principles” and see if they are representative of that religions “fundamentals.” Christ tells Christians to “turn the other cheek.” So, obviously clinic bombers and calls for assassination have no part of true Christianity.
I have not read the Koran, since the “true” Koran can only be printed in Arabic, but you have to read it, and decide if it endorses the actions you condemn in its followers.
Does this seem fair?

By Uberman

February 9, 2006 10:34 AM | Link to this

If all the people who called themselves Christians were actually Christians, that is, following the teachings of Jesus, they’d be socialists. What they actually are is the bastardization of Christianity called Calvinists.

By rob l

February 9, 2006 10:40 AM | Link to this

Take the rag off there head and these people are still fascist. They believe that they are right and everyone either should conform or die. This is why history must be taught in schools. A bit of historical info for you readers. The danes were the only people to protect the Jews from nazi death camps. Maybe this is why they are being targeted by fascism again. I as an american would fight and die if nessesary to protect and defend the rights and freedoms of the press , of the danish people. It is time these fascists were confronted with that reality. The world can no longer tolerate there atrocitys .

By physicsDawg

February 9, 2006 10:56 AM | Link to this

N-GA, I was starting to ramble so I ended my last post, but I’ll answer your List of “Fundamentalists.” The difference between who claim are “Christian Fundamentalists” (who are actually Christian Radicals) And “Muslim Fundamentalists” (who may or may not be only Muslim Radicals) Is that are they following what the Bible(Koran, Mormon golden plates, etc.) actually says? Or, are these people who claim to be followers, but are nowhere near it? I have a bias against Islam, personally, because such a great percentage of them are Radicals. You look at how many Muslim terrorists and rioters there are, and compare that to how many Christian terrorists and rioters you’ve seen. Timothy McVeigh vs. 1000’s of Muslisms. Pat Robertsin vs. Iran leader is kind of a draw, except Pat’s not running a country, is he?
If you can read the Koran, you will know if Islam, Fundamentally, is a violent religion. Or, does it just produce more individual radicals? (because IT DOES at least do that!)
To be fair, Professed christianity does come in radical waves. The Crusades, and the Inquisition. These were also State Sponsored Religions(or Religion-run states), and why, along with the Taliban, they are a bad idea. Our Founding Fathers knew better, aren’t you glad?

By candide

February 9, 2006 11:03 AM | Link to this

Listen to Uberman! God is indeed dead. Nature lives by its own laws and doesn’t require a creator, that was proven by Spinoza 350 years ago.

Christians are not only believers in nonsense, they are prone to violence because of the sado-masochistic nature of their salvationist myth.

Muslims are violent because they actually think that forcing people to believe is doing them a great favor, as Christians also once believed and many still do. Those who burned heretics thought they were doing the dissenters a favor, they might repent before dying and thereby gain salvation.

Anyone believing this crap has a pretty weird idea of god.

By N-GA

February 9, 2006 11:07 AM | Link to this

Using the word “fundamentalist” when describing radical muslims certainly seems to clearly convey the gist of what I am trying to say. However, in the future I will try to adhere to Webster’s definition.

Now if we assume there really is an entity people refer to as “God”, then I expect she/he/it is laughing his metaphysical a* off when he looks down upon mankind only to see so many people:

You get the picture? Makes you want to puke on these self-rightous a##holes!

By Mike

February 9, 2006 11:11 AM | Link to this

This cartoon covers one of the worse nightmares of democracy.

With some exceptions, the cartoon and liberal haters that post redundant hates messages in this thread should see themselves under the head dress holding a weapon.

That symbolism is as lost upon them as the image of the carpet-bagging Yankee was a hundred and forty years ago.

I respect those who can see irony in humor, introspectively analyze with the same fervor used to analyze our enemies, and can hate my point of view with a passion while admiring the sheer effort to stand and deliver a personal statement in the public arena.

By Buy Danish

February 9, 2006 11:12 AM | Link to this

VOR - You start by telling the leaders of these countries that if they don’t shut down their vile madrassas, and stop calling for death to Israel and death to America that we will work for “regime change”. You hint at military action, which includes the option to blow their unholy mosques and everyone in them to kingdom come because what they are doing stinks to high heaven. Puns intended. Start with Yemen, destroy the mosque that was used as a tunnel for imprisoned killers who are now free to continue their slaughter of innocents. Next, go to Saudi Arabia, our theoretical “ally”. These ignorant fanatics are being fed unbelievable garbage whose sole purpose is to agitate the masses and scapegoat the Western world, instead of looking to their incompetent rulers. You have to use a combination of diplomacy and fear, with a big emphasis on the fear part.

You persuade all of Western civilization to present a unified front, with no more weasling from the French and Germans. They are under attack too, and they are coming around, albeit slowly. Thanks to the riots in France by these paragons of peace, and the death squads doing their dirty work in Madrid, London, Amsterdam and now Denmark. They need to stop inviting unassimilated people to their shores and handing them out checks from well-meaning but foolish taxpayers which supports them in their bloody intifadas. Deport those who actively call for the destruction of their new homeland. Dittoes for the U.S.A.

Comparisons of mad mullahs to the “Christian Right” is deranged fantasy. Because we have one Eric Rudolph and a few nutcases on his side does not equal hundreds of millions of people who are fed a diet of violence and death, starved of all sense of love or joy or beauty or any of the things that make us human.

At least the American fundamentalists that you so detest believe in the sanctity of life - so right there the comparisons to Islam fall apart. You people who think that GW and Pat Robertson are the enemy are so filled with anger that you can’t identify the enemy, even as the vermin invade our shores, burkas at the ready. Because Robertson makes a silly statement about God’s wrath and earthquakes, does not make him a killer. You have found the enemy and it is “The Christian Right” and Zarqawi and Bin Laden and their envoys are laughing at your suicidal stupidity, as they prowl about unnoticed.

It would be really helpful if you would join the rest of us in vanquishing the “terrorists” who threaten each and every one of us, and put aside your irrational hatred of W and your biliousness just long enough to present a unified front to these people whose sole mission in life is to destroy us - and yes, that includes you.

And as far as China eating us alive, it is nothing short of ironic to note that the mentality of the left echoes that late great Chinese leader, and expert in mass starvation, Chairman Mao. The Little Red Book was the secular bible for hip young Americans searching for their utopian dream and these same fools still show up at peace marches, albiet without the youthful veneer of the sixties, sporting grayhaired ponytails and incredibly lame slogans.

By candide

February 9, 2006 11:21 AM | Link to this

I think I will buy some Danish butter today!

When O’Reilly announced his anti-French boycott I ran out and bought some cognac.

By N-GA

February 9, 2006 11:23 AM | Link to this

physicsDawg,

I can understand your view of Islam as it reflects what many Americans think. I lived in the middle east for 2 years and can say that most are not radical at all. Most just want to marry, have children, and make a good living.

Most also want the U.S. to treat Muslims the same way that it treats Israel. Now then, if the U.S. government (Rep OR Dem) told Israel that all aid would stop and all military defense pacts would be void unless Israel returned all the land taken in the 6 Day war back to the Palestinians, then the Muslim world would have more respect for the U.S. Instead, they view the U.S. as a tool of Israel. Since the Palestinians have had no voice for almost 40 years, they resorted to the Intifada (sp?). I don’t agree with it, but I understand it. The United Nations has demanded that Israel return the occupied territories. When Iraq ignored the United Nations resolution on WPM, GWB decided we needed to invade Iraq (even though there were no WMD’s). When is GWB going to invade Israel for ignoring the U.N.?

If you want to criticize Islam, try to understand it (BTW, the Old Testament is part of the Koran).

By Freedom Fries

February 9, 2006 11:25 AM | Link to this

Buy Danish, your beliefs, shopping habits, and voting are directly responsible for terrorist attacks on the USA. Thanks for supporting foreign dictatorships through the purchase of foreign oil, and thanks again for sending American men and women to die in a foreign land so you and your friends put their fat as*es in SUVs, using more fuel than you need, squandering resources, and ruining our childrens’ futures.

Oh, and thanks again, by voting for Bush, you obviously support exporting jobs and factories overseas, since you’re such an AMERICAN patriot.

F’ing idiot.

By candide

February 9, 2006 11:29 AM | Link to this

The Old Testament is not part of the Koran. The Muslims believe that the Jews distorted their own history. They warn Muslims against the rabbis and the monks, that is the Jews and Christians — right in the Koran.

This is in imitation of the Gospel of John which calls the Jews children of Satan.

These religious people are really something, n’est-ce pas?

By Buy Danish

February 9, 2006 11:33 AM | Link to this

Freedom Fries - You sir are the idiot, if you think my “shopping habits” were responsible for 9/11. And please do tell us how you get around town. Do you ride a bicycle with a little bell that goes ching ching?

And since you are opposed to “foreign oil”, can we assume that you support drilling in Anwar and coastal exploration? How about windfarms (not in Kennedy’s backyard of course).

The enemy is not the SUV, the enemy is Islamofacism. If you can’t see that, then please get out of the way so the rest of us can do something about it and defend ourselves. I’m sure Ted Kacszyinski has a nice cabin you can rent cheap for you and your ridiculous Luddite friends.

Going out to buy some Danish beer. I do not buy French yet - but will reconsider if they stop obstructing our efforts for a change.

By N-GA

February 9, 2006 11:33 AM | Link to this

….and the Jews, Christians and Muslims all have the same prophets (Abraham (Ibrahim), Eli, etc.)

By gadem

February 9, 2006 11:51 AM | Link to this

What most are forgetting to realize is that all religion is open to the interpretation of the reader.

By getalife

February 9, 2006 11:51 AM | Link to this

Shut up

By Voice of Reason

February 9, 2006 11:54 AM | Link to this

Buy Danish - That makes plenty of sense. Kind of. But from the very beginning, your options are war and fighting. Part of the very reason they hate us. Why do we need to tell how to do anything? And the result of their failure to comply is war!

Instead of meddling in their affairs, we should be using our influence to change the U.N. which will in turn bring your united front. Then the United Nations as one body representing the world can use diplomacy to fight the “evils” of the world, and use diplomacy to help the poor and oppressed people. Then if all else fails, we, along with the United Nations (not the organization, but the rest of the world) will use necessary means to right the wrongs.

I’m kind of referring back to yesterday in a roundabout way (NON VIOLENCE)!

By rob l

February 9, 2006 11:54 AM | Link to this

Does anyone really think like Ted (hiccup) Kennedy ? I really am curious !

By physicsDawg

February 9, 2006 11:59 AM | Link to this

N-GA, good post. I know my view is skewed by the violent ones I see. I still think I have the right to be skeptical, based on preponderence of events, but I will make sure to only judge individuals, based on their actions. I don’t know, I think the 6 day war land was justified. Wasn’t Isreal attacked from all sides, kicked some butt, and kept that land as punitive action? A comparison would be WWII. If France(stop laughing!) had repelled Germany, kept the Rhineland, would we have made them give it back to Nazi Germany? As real history happened, did we give back Western Berlin back to Nazi’s, giving them a home away from south america? No. The Nazis were the aggressors, as were the Arabic nations against Israel. That being said, even if my limited knoledge of the facts are right, I still agree that it might be neccessary for peace(that they give the land back).
It’s real Ironic, that The Arab world sees Israel as the Abomination, that the land was stolen from Arabs, to create Israel after WWII. Who did that? The United Nations. Hypocrites. THAT is why I say the land aquired in the 6 days should probably be given back. I think the carving out of Israel from Arab nations was a bad idea, and only reactionary to the Holocaust.

By Dr R

February 9, 2006 11:59 AM | Link to this

Fortunately, French beer is scarcely worth buying anyway …

So we’re on religion today, and the humanists seem to have their A game going. I would say, though, that the concept of banning religion for the abuses of a few is akin to banning cognac because some people get too drunk and create problems (take that metaphor and run with it to your heart’s content).

The problem isn’t faith it’s how we weak, flawed humans interpret it. In the right hands, it’s a beautiful thing. When abused, like anything, it can be destructive. The problem is us. Anyway, maybe this is the way it’s supposed to happen. Perhaps we were made to work through these conflicts, however painful it may be, in order to reveal more about ourselves and our relationship to God and see who really deserves those virgins in the great beyond.

By Jewish and Proud of It

February 9, 2006 12:17 PM | Link to this

I think the carving out of Israel from Arab nations was a bad idea, and only reactionary to the Holocaust.

You couldn’t be more wrong…

By physicsDawg

February 9, 2006 12:20 PM | Link to this

[Except God no substance can be granted or conceived. .. Everything, I say, is in God, and all things which are made, are made by the laws of the infinite nature of God, and necessarily follows from the necessity of his essence. (Spinoza, Ethics)[(http://www.spaceandmotion.com/Philosophy-Spinoza-Philosopher.htm)

I have to say this is the only Spinoza I know, had to look it up. But, candide, it doesn’t sound like “God is indeed dead. Nature lives by its own laws and doesn’t require a creator, that was proven by Spinoza 350 years ago.” to me.

By Dr R

February 9, 2006 12:21 PM | Link to this

True, the Arab “nations” at that time were but a loose collection of colonies and former colonies with little central authority or confederation. Israel merely retook what many of us feel was hers to begin with and created a republic with a free enterprise economy and the rule of law in the midst of a bleak desert. Damn right we’re gonna get her back.

By physicsDawg

February 9, 2006 12:22 PM | Link to this

Try this again: Except God no substance can be granted or conceived. .. Everything, I say, is in God, and all things which are made, are made by the laws of the infinite nature of God, and necessarily follows from the necessity of his essence. (Spinoza, Ethics)

I have to say this is the only Spinoza I know, had to look it up. But, candide, it doesn’t sound like “God is indeed dead. Nature lives by its own laws and doesn’t require a creator, that was proven by Spinoza 350 years ago.� to me.

By Jewish and Proud of It

February 9, 2006 12:24 PM | Link to this

The land of Israel was once the land of Canaan, where God led us after he freed us from Egypt. We lived there until the Romans cast us out after a three year war in 135 C.E. (Common era)and we only returned after we received British help in the for of the Balfour Declaration and the Palestinian Mandate. The Holocaust was the straw that broke the camel’s back so to speak but the land has been ours since the dawn of time according to the Word of G-d.

By Brian Curtis

February 9, 2006 12:30 PM | Link to this

JAPOI: Ahh, but which God? And why should we take one believer’s word over another’s when they disagree?

That’s not how you make good policy.

By physicsDawg

February 9, 2006 12:33 PM | Link to this

Jewish and Proud, I’m sorry if I offended you. My history is fairly half-baked on mid East issues. It’s just my opinion. Can you tell me what year Israel(post Roman Empire) was created, and wasn’t it by the Fledgling UN?

By physicsDawg

February 9, 2006 12:34 PM | Link to this

Thanks for answering in advance! :)

By Jewish and Proud of It

February 9, 2006 12:38 PM | Link to this

Yes, physicsdawg, a seperate Jewish/Arab state plan was ratified in November 1947 and expired on May 17, 1948, the first date that Israel was declared a state.

Brian Curtis, the same G-d celebrated by all three religions, Christianity, Judaism and Muslim. Only the practice of worship is different amongst the religions.

By physicsDawg

February 9, 2006 12:42 PM | Link to this

I can see, though, how the land was taken from the “locals” by the Balfour Declaration, after the Holocaust. Not that jewish people didn’t deserve something for that. But I can see how Arabs feel it was stolen from them, in recent history. (As opposed to being “stolen” from the Canaanites after Exodus, and stolen from you by the Romans.) They may feel twice as wronged, if they see themselves as descendants of Canaan, in fact. One big thing Jews and Christians still have in common, is how nice the Romans were to us!

By Scooter

February 9, 2006 12:42 PM | Link to this

Candide and PhysicsDawg, thanks for the info. This Spinoza guy sounds interesting;

For Spinoza, God and Nature were One.

By Uberman

February 9, 2006 12:49 PM | Link to this

physicsDawg

Spinoza did not believe in the God of the Bible. From Wikipedia: “In the summer of 1656, he was excommunicated because of apostasy from the Jewish community for his claims that God is the mechanism of nature and the universe, having no personality, and that the Bible is a metaphorical and allegorical work used to teach the nature of God, both of which were based on a form of Cartesianism

By Jewish and Proud of It

February 9, 2006 12:50 PM | Link to this

Of course, the Romans changed their view of Christians along the way (I believe that one Emperor even declared Christinaity to be the official religion of the Empire) but they never did change their views about Jews. A fairly compelling question would be How come?

By Scooter

February 9, 2006 12:53 PM | Link to this

MAybe the Jews weren’t to fond of the roman bath houses, or boy man love (assuming it is true)?

By N-GA

February 9, 2006 12:54 PM | Link to this

I’m back…..had to take the dog for a walk in the snow.

physicsDawg…..actually the 6-day war was the result of the Israelis executing a pre-emptive strike . That is not to say that the countries around Israel weren’t getting ready to attack. In any event, the U.N. passed a resolution more than 50 years ago that requires all member states to return any land captured in a war. Israel refuses to do so (they need more space to put immigrants, I suppose). They tried to claim they need a defensive buffer, but that is a foolish excuse as they have shown that they don’t need one to repel invaders. They also have the USA behind them via treaty.

Dr R…The French do produce a good beer. When I lived in Europe, Kronenbourg (sp?) was the number 1 selling beer in Europe. It is made in the Alsace region, so I suspect you could really consider it German.

Getting back to ML’s cartoon, does anyone think that the Bush administration is censoring Howard Stern?

By Jewish and Proud of It

February 9, 2006 12:54 PM | Link to this

Also, physicsdawg, since the Canaanites were supposedly descended from Ham, who was a descendant of Noah, I guess you could say that the land Israel sits on has never been “owned” by Arabs.

By physicsDawg

February 9, 2006 12:59 PM | Link to this

How come? It would be because one, maybe Constantine, was “converted” and made it the “official” religion. (I personally don’t beleive christianity practised by the Romans was true to the Gospel/New Testament.) I also don’t know the order of when Romans started liking Christians more than Jews, started feeding them to Lions, then made it the religion of the empire.

By physicsDawg

February 9, 2006 01:02 PM | Link to this

I gotta go to work, bye all. By the way, where was Andy today? j/k

By Osama Bin Laden

February 9, 2006 01:02 PM | Link to this

If the Jews are deserving of all the land in Palestine and we, as Christians, support this because of what happened over 2,000 years ago, then maybe Amercans should follow suit and give America back to the indigenous tribes who were here before the great invasion.

By Jewish and Proud of It

February 9, 2006 01:05 PM | Link to this

N-GA, your wrong, Israel ceded ALL of the Sinai back to Egypt beginning in May 1979. And just how clear of an indicator do you need that 3 hostile nations are about to attack you when their troops are massing on your border? It was a strategically and tactically brilliant maneuver to strike before your enemy could, especially when you have 3 nations going to attack you simultaneously with backing from 5 other countries.

By Jewish and Proud of It

February 9, 2006 01:08 PM | Link to this

Osama: and we, as Christians?????

Your a christian? O my has the world turned upside down?

By Brian Curtis

February 9, 2006 01:12 PM | Link to this

Yes, where IS Andy? We’re in danger of having an actual exchange of ideas and opinions here.

By Buy Danish

February 9, 2006 01:19 PM | Link to this

VOR - We have John “The Meanie” Bolton bringing our influence to bear at the U.N. as much as humanly possible, despite the protestations of the Kennedy/Kerry wing of the Dem party - the boys who put the a* in Massachussets. But we are still left dealing with corrupt 2 bit dictators who seethe with anti-semitism and anti-Americanism and lovingly support groups like Hamas and Hezbollah in both spirit and cash. If oil for food was the greatest corruption scandal in modern times, then what else do you think goes on there, thanks mostly to the largesse of the American taxpayer? And the Security Council is about as relevant as yesterday’s dinosaur, but who’s going to tell France, for example, that they don’t get a vote equal to ours anymore?

The quote unquote “free” Islamic countries have to clean out some of their own garbage, and that starts with the vile utterances of their “spiritual” leaders, and the ‘schools’ who “educate” their young. If they won’t do it voluntarily, then we have to “encourage” them to do it by any means necessary. We can only fight so many soldiers of al queda on the actual battlefield. We need to prevent the next batch of soldiers from serving in the army of militant Islam, and stop their recruiting tools and the “Jews are pigs and monkeys” poems they write so eloquently for their belt and vest wearing youngsters. Meanwhile, everything has to be on the table, including destroying “mosques” that are nothing but staging areas for attacks by cowards. Let’s face it, if a cartoon can inflame their passions, why not go for the real thing?

Dr. R - Belgian beer is pretty good. Anyway, I meant that I no longer buy anything French, particularly their wines, but if they get on board I will reconsider my boycott. I buy Australian wine because they are our steadfast allies. And anything Danish except their furniture.

By rob l

February 9, 2006 01:21 PM | Link to this

Boy you people really think your some kind of experts on theology. How about sticking to the subject without pretending you actually know anything

By Dr R

February 9, 2006 01:24 PM | Link to this

The problem with discussing religion at length is that we’re not going to change anyone’s thinking or beliefs, so it’s a pointless exercise. I’ll bop back in later when we’re discussing something more substantive. Until then, y’all are welcome to join me over at Jay Bookman’s blog; good stuff going there.

By RW-(the original)

February 9, 2006 01:24 PM | Link to this

Brian Curtis,

As long as you are one of the parties in the conversation there is no danger of an exchange of ideas.

/drive by

By ben e adam

February 9, 2006 01:26 PM | Link to this

who conqured the romans and freed jerusalem and surrounding areas? the temples and churches are still there history doesn’t stop during from the 8oo’s to the present.the muslims held control there allowing hebrew nations as well as christians to live as they did in other regions.also according to the werd of G-d or eloh, abraham’s sonS…would both have great nations that are accepted by HIM so noone is truely chosen to be somewhere that they already aren’t.wouldn’t this contridict the higher plan

By Buy Danish

February 9, 2006 01:28 PM | Link to this

N-GA you said, “They tried to claim they need a defensive buffer, but that is a foolish excuse as they have shown that they don’t need one to repel invaders.” Um, have you been following what has happened with the territory that was just given up? Taken over by fanatics it appears, so the fear of invasion is real.

And no, The Bush Administration is not censoring Howard Stern. Ordinary people make these decisions for themselves and use the power of commerce - by choosing to change the channel or cancel subscriptions. Another beautiful thing about the free market. In any case, I don’t get the comparison of Stern to the blasphemous cartoons. Is he a Jewish prophet?

By Jewish and Proud of It

February 9, 2006 01:35 PM | Link to this

Ben e Adam, Baruch HaBah Achi!

By Voice of Reason

February 9, 2006 01:46 PM | Link to this

Buy Danish - I hardly think a Bush chrony is the person to reform the U.N. But using your logic, we should bomb Catholic churches because there are priests that molest little boys?

I hardly think blowing up mosques is a way to solve the problem … Maybe removing the Clerics would be a better idea. But that’s just me.

And I don’t think you prevent the next batch of Al Qaeda buy killing their fathers. Again, that’s just me.

By rob l

February 9, 2006 01:47 PM | Link to this

This topic has nothing to do with religion. And jay bookman is an idiot

By Dusty

February 9, 2006 01:48 PM | Link to this

Folks, you sure love to debate or whatever you want to call it. Reading over the past postings brings these condensed thoughts to mind.

You don’t need Spinoza to tell you about the status of God if you have faith.

If you go way back in the history of any country, you will find that it was once inhabited by a bunch of aboriginal people, hardly a claim for any country’s right to be. Now is now, not yesterday.

Speaking against your country and it’s leaders may be “freedom” but it is also what the enemies want to hear. Best to decided whether you want to get rid of your country and then freedom. Right now it is your choice.

So keep on “debating”. It is fun, isn’t it? We can ALL put in our two cents worth.

By ben e adam

February 9, 2006 02:04 PM | Link to this

wasaallaamashShallomelakumdenakum… we are all here so by some means we are all chosen…and free to be aware or unaware and doing whatever you want to do isn’t always free just dumb.espectially insults that cause damage to others.through words or pictures or ignorant even unintentional action. all the prophets taught the basics of oneness of the MOST HIGH, service to come unity kindness etc…to every nation tribe and village from ever since..the CREATOR has sent messengers and spokes people guide as people need to see to believe…peace be on our father noah who lived a long time and to his proginy for we are from this seed to be here in this time is a blessing and sometimes seems as acurse when we can’t get along but i guess that’s the age old EGO

By Dubya

February 9, 2006 02:07 PM | Link to this

Thanks to all my Chickenhawk followers! Lotsa GI’s killed so far this week in Iraq - and the weeks not over yet. How bout we stage some more “Victory In Iraq Parades”?? Them worked real good fer daddy.

By Jewish and Proud of It

February 9, 2006 02:10 PM | Link to this

Dusty, perhaps we’re meerily having a discussion, must EVERYTHING be debated? How nice of you to offer absolutely nothing to this DISCUSSION.

By rob l

February 9, 2006 02:12 PM | Link to this

Very inciteful comment. Bet it took you all day to think of it.

By Jewish and Proud of It

February 9, 2006 02:15 PM | Link to this

Now is now, not yesterday I’ll tell you what Dusty, you go out today and buy a nice brand new Mercedes, the $60,000.00 type…I’ll come steal it tomorrow and you shouldn’t have anything to complain about, after all, now is now, not yesterday, right?

By Monica's Man

February 9, 2006 02:15 PM | Link to this

Anyone have a spare cigar?

By ben e adam

February 9, 2006 02:27 PM | Link to this

now is now same but different than yesterday and it’s not right to take what’s not yours even if you think it might or should be yours no mattr de mattr stealing goes against that guy oh yea moses even in jest the action goes on into the effect.i hope the inheriters of the landtrust can share as we are all in this together

By Dusty

February 9, 2006 02:36 PM | Link to this

Go ahead, Jewish, steal my car. I planned ahead and got insurance.

By rob l

February 9, 2006 02:37 PM | Link to this

Hey monicas man , I think Jimmy may have it.I saw something that looked like a cigar coming out of his mouth the other day at the funeral.

By RE

February 9, 2006 02:48 PM | Link to this

I Didn’t know there were two jewish folks in all of Atlanta. Reminds me of home (NJ, I used to live near lakewood) I have a question, I personally feel that when Israel as a state was created by the Balfour agreement, It basically took over previously held british colonial land. Britian had occupied that area and gave what was not thiers to begin with. In general I think most modern conflict begins because of one British map or another drawn up years ago, (Pakistan/India, Palestine/Israel, Lebanon/Syria, North Korea/South Korea…etc). The bible is not a legal document, and while it does tell the history, no country is bound to uphold it.

All this I am sure you will disagree with, however I find it is hard to disagree is Israel or it’s policies without being branded an anti-semite. This is not the case at all for me, I am not an anti-semite, but I do not think many of Israels policies are justified. Do you think any critisism of Israel is anti-semetic?

By Jewish and Proud of It

February 9, 2006 03:00 PM | Link to this

Do you think any critisism of Israel is anti-semetic?

No RE, I criticize (sp?) my homeland all of the time. I agree with your statement that Britain gave up something that was not their’s to begin with but I don’t agree with it in the connotation you were presenting it in. Britain gave back the land to its rightful owners. What do you think the lastest conflict is based on? The belief that the Holy Land belongs to one group of people, not the other…if you think Israel’s policies are not justified, surely you feel the same about the Palestinians… because our policies are, in essence, the same. We both claim the land, I (and most other Jews) happen to believe that G-d granted it to us. To the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

By ben e adam

February 9, 2006 03:16 PM | Link to this

be eye in gio…the brrritish did a job around the arabian peninsula,indo-pakistan divide etc…most can’t seem to see this and they also think columbus discovered something as if HIStory began at that time.. funny jews and christians and muslims lived together for centuries in al-andulus and other places in the so called middle east[middle of what east of where?]where and when the advancement of a great many things happened and we all owe a great deal of thanks…even the basics.. mass production of paper,book publications,opaque lens’,on and on…and during the inquzition where did alot of jews find homes…in muslim countries.going back further though moses and his followers were hebrew,jews are from the tribe of judea coming years later.being one of the 12 scattered around.and back to the present as if all this scwabbling just started.as for the bible that werd isn’t even in it at all.what makes part of this collection of books old or new? the inspiration is from the same source of sources.most of present day israeli’s aren’t”from” there but can get a pretty easy entry for citizenship.how ever the philistene family who has been there for generations can barely get clean water let alone much else…just because YOU criticize doesn’t make you anti!it means you have a different opinion with the potential of being right or wrong

By RE

February 9, 2006 03:24 PM | Link to this

But you must concede, Jews in any significant number did not live in that area prior to 1946. Yes it is a biblical homeland, but prior to 1946 it was inhabitant almost exclusively by arab muslims, excepting of course for the wide range of faiths living in Jerusalem.

Why would a muslim have any validity in a claim based upon a jewish text?

I do not see any amicable outcome to the situation. Israel will not just leave the land as the palistinans hope. But you must also concede that while this land may have been left to you by the bible, in the palistinians mind this land was left to them by thier fathers and grandfathers who owned it prior to 1946.

By N-GA

February 9, 2006 03:33 PM | Link to this

Arabs who are Israeli citizens may vote in Israeli elections. However, Palestinians cannot vote in Israeli elections. As a well known Israeli writer so aptly put it: “We can either allow the Palestinians to vote and cease to be a Jewish state, or we can continue to deny the Palestinians the vote and cease to be a Democracy.”

So much for GWB bringing democracy to the middle east. That goes for our other middle eastern allies (Egypt, Jordan, Kuwait, Yemen, the UAE and Saudi Arabia.

By Dusty

February 9, 2006 03:33 PM | Link to this

Jewish and Proud,

I hope you are right that God has granted Israel to the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Israel is a strong free country and our ally. That is now.

When I referred to the earliest inhabitants of ALL countries, that is what I meant. US, Canada and Mexico are not planning to turn over their countries to Native Americans, Australia is not putting the aborigines in charge of their continent. Those are examples of yesterday. As the ages past, there are USUALLY changes.

I’ll have to ask my good Jewish doctor about all this. But he’d rather talk about ailments.

By Jewish and Proud of It

February 9, 2006 03:35 PM | Link to this

But you must also concede that while this land may have been left to you by the bible, in the palistinians mind this land was left to them by thier fathers and grandfathers who owned it prior to 1946.

I guess it boils down to which authority you put your stock in, the Word of G-d or the word of your fathers and grandfathers…

By ben e adam

February 9, 2006 03:39 PM | Link to this

from the family of abraham come many…as he had children with more than one woman, which for that time a culture was norm, and jealousy amongst them would also be normal,and they couldn’t live around each other.ishmael was born when his father was almost 90 and issac didn’t come until ishmael was of age…so the rightful heirs are among the descendants.abraham was a prophet appointed by the source of all things who is the most perfect planner…do you think he would allow him to have illigitamite offspring?he was a role model,a prophet and a father of many nations, the illigite part has been placed by those who have little faith in the creator’s plan…it’s not in the book…so if G-d promised the land to abrahm’s offspring this is going to take some serious patience and sharing… isn’t all land holy?

By rob l

February 9, 2006 03:40 PM | Link to this

Im confused . Was the cartoon artist a jew.Or are we just off in our own little world here

By rushncap

February 9, 2006 03:41 PM | Link to this

N-GA, Palestinians CAN vote. But they vote in their own elections (which happened recently, and the results of which are well known). Palestinians do not want to be Israelis, they want their own country. So why should they vote in Israeli elections? Similarly the Israelis did not vote in the Palestinian elections. How is this not democratic?

Finally, in the case of the Middle East, democracy is often not the most idea solution anyways. For instance, democratically speaking, the Palestinians would like to annihiliate every last Jew living in Israel (and around the world, just in case). You must remember that Hitler, for instance, was a democratically elected leader of Germany. Democracy is not holy water, it will not immediately cure all ills. It is the best governmental system we currenly know, but that does not mean that every place on Earth would be automatically imrpoved by its immediate and unconstrained application. So even if Palestinians not voting in Israeli elections was somehow undemocratic (which it is not), I’ll take a dose of non-democracy to prevent a heaping of genocide.

By Monica's Man

February 9, 2006 03:47 PM | Link to this

Who wants to smell my cigar?

By Juan Goni

February 9, 2006 03:48 PM | Link to this

I saw the ALL the cartoons and I did not find them as offensive as “P** in Christ” or the “Madonna in elephant Dung” (I am a devout Catholic and I did not go out and burn anything). If people only were able to see the cartoons for themselves they will see how mild they are. I believe that the Muslim world in about 400 years behind the Western world. 400 years ago Catholics were burning people for less. Great Cartoon Mike.

By rushncap

February 9, 2006 03:51 PM | Link to this

Juan, where did you find the cartoons? I’ve looked for them, but they are not all that easy to find online.

By Juan Goni

February 9, 2006 03:56 PM | Link to this

I found them in Daryl Cagle’s Proffesional Cartoonist Index in the Web and in Ann Telnaes Web site. They are really mild for our Standards or for what we Christians have been subjected in the past few years which It has not affected me very much personally.

By Dusty

February 9, 2006 03:58 PM | Link to this

Hey rob 1,

We are have a merry little DISCUSSION here. ben e adam is even writing in code. Did you want us to discuss Einstein’s theory relative to Luckovich’s cartoon? No fun at all.

By ben e adam

February 9, 2006 04:00 PM | Link to this

RE:the validity a muslim might have is the eyes of those who follow the prophets thier books are not ”thiers”such as with the text you refer to as jewish…moses as we can learn through research was not a jew but a hebrew born way before judea was in existance.as for the arab fathers and grand fathers who can they trace thier legacy back to..? abraham, making them allowed to live in the same area, just cousins along. with the wide range of faiths and sects who have been there a while.gladly the europeans didn’t ”win” the crusades it might be an even tougher time for those in that part of OUR world…so mabe the fathers and grand fathers of the abrahamic leniage[ishmael and issac]and all thier ancestors until the now need to see what’s in thier division and reconcile thier family i think this would please eloh. in the ”old” testament it refers to kedar [a decendant of abrahm]…who lived in paran and bacca this on the old maps is right near the red sea in the hijez of present day arabia

By Juan Goni

February 9, 2006 04:06 PM | Link to this

I just read some of the comments to Mike’s Cartoon and I am distressed. As an Spaniard (and a devout Catholic) I consider myself proud of the Muslim and Jewish culture of my country. I myself feel that some my uncestors had to be muslim and jewish It really hurts me seeing my “cousins” fighting over the land. I only wish them peace, love and reconciliation.

By Jewish and Proud of It

February 9, 2006 04:07 PM | Link to this

What’s the matter Dusty, upset there hasn’t been a “pinko” or a “moobat” thrown around at all today? and wouldn’t you know it, just as Dr. R had a cry-fest yesterday because no one could get along, here we are having an actual conversation. It’s not as salacious as Dusty would like but what can you do? As my mom used to say, you can please all the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time but you can’t please all the people all the time.

By getalife

February 9, 2006 04:12 PM | Link to this

rushncap,

Scroll to the bottom for the cartoons.

By RE

February 9, 2006 04:13 PM | Link to this

A few thoughts:

Could you ever see a secular Israel that allows for both Jewish and Muslim representation in the Kenneset?

Do you see as possible 2 seperate states, Israel and Palistine living together peacefully?

How would either of these be possible

By ben e adam

February 9, 2006 04:14 PM | Link to this

dusty you’ve made me feel important today with my new code mabe i can type in tongues or in fingers or something geywfegy

By Jewish and Proud of It

February 9, 2006 04:18 PM | Link to this

RE, in a word, no. For both of these scenarios it boils down to views. In the first scenario, there are enough hardliners in government (and always will be) for that to never be likely. As for the second scenario, it won’t be likely because Arabs in general and Palestinians in particular won’t be satisified with just their own state. They want nothing short of the annihilation of the Jewish people. So again I say, no, neither option is likely. I won’t say that they are impossible because miracles have been performed on Earth before, but highly unlikely.

By N-GA

February 9, 2006 04:28 PM | Link to this

rushncap,

The Palestinians are an occupied people who cannot vote in any way to influence the occupation or their futures. As has been so well reported, Palestinians in the Gaza Strip voted for the first time in over ten years.

My point, though, is that when no WMD’s were found in Iraq, GWB frantically tried to justify the invasion by saying he was bringing Democracy to the Middle East. I was simply pointing out the obvious hypocrisy. Furthermore, the context of my statement was that the Muslim world is critical of the USA because the USA has supported the illegal (per the U.N.) occupation of Palestinian land. The U.N. does not recognize the Israeli view that God “deeded” these lands to the Hebrew people. Also, GWB cannot acknowledge the U.N. by invading Iraq because it was in violation of U.N. resolution 14xx, then turn around and marginalize the U.N. when it’s convenient.

Finally, I made a comment about this administration censoring Howard Stern and Buy Danish disagreed saying “Ordinary people make these decisions for themselves and use the power of commerce - by choosing to change the channel or cancel subscriptions”. When the FCC fined the radio stations because of Stern’s potty mouth, he was in fact being censored and pushed to satellite radio. My point being that he talked dirty for many years, but wasn’t fined until this right wing administration decided to muzzle him.

By ben e adam

February 9, 2006 04:31 PM | Link to this

i play futball with alot of palestinians[christian and muslim],2 israeli’s hebrew decent 4 morroccan jews, 3 afghanis some anglo brits and we get along fine with no annihilation at all except an occasional serious victory.not all palestinians are mad killers just like not all jews love too much money or hate christians or other sterotypical views…the palestinian state was already there it was divided up to appease the russians or britts and some others who wanted the jewish people out and destruction of the muslim territories and to cause mass chaos in a land that is supposed to represent peace

By RW-(the original)

February 9, 2006 04:36 PM | Link to this

rushncap,

These are three cartoons that were put into the packet the the Danish Imams were sending around to stir up trouble. These never ran in any Danish paper and may well have been faked by the people trying to start the trouble. One (the pig face) is a modified version of an actual photo from a French hog calling contest.

By rushncap

February 9, 2006 04:37 PM | Link to this

The Palestinians can and do influence their future. Unfortunately, the methods they have chosen are… less than ideal.

And, by the way, the territories that are occupied by Israel are occupied as a result of a war Israel did not even start. Russia still has parts of Japan and Germany which it holds as a result of WWII, and no one seems to mind much.

By Juan Goni

February 9, 2006 04:45 PM | Link to this

Note to all. I only have seen the Dane Published cartoons and my comments are related to only these. Not any other additional “fake” cartoons that may have been created by others to inflame the passions.

By N-GA

February 9, 2006 04:49 PM | Link to this

The Israelis (and the rest of the world) give the Palestinians little choice. While I don’t agree with their methods, I definitely understand their position. If Americans were faced with the same situation of being illegaly occupied, I am certain they would be even more creative in their search for satisfaction.

However, rushncap, you can rationalize your faulty position all day long and it will not make it right. Israel cries for its dead while its hands are red with the blood of many innocents, too. As a famous fictional American once said, “Stupid is as stupid does.”

By Dusty

February 9, 2006 04:53 PM | Link to this

Jewish and Proud,

What is YOUR problem? Salacious? You better go talk to your mom again. Or play futball with ben. You are looking for trouble where there isn’t any.

By RW-(the original)

February 9, 2006 04:53 PM | Link to this

Juan Goni,

Even those fakes are probably mild by our standards. It also turns out the same cartoons that you saw, the ones that did run in Denmark, also ran in Egypt in October.

By ben e adam

February 9, 2006 05:02 PM | Link to this

so to the people who are against palestine and think they are in the wrong what would you do if someone came to your house one day and said you can’t live here any more or pick the fruit from the trees your fore parents planted or drink from the wells and not except your currency and shut your electricity off and rape your women imprison your men and now this generation who’s groing up there knows little but a trash heap for a home.and accross the city there’s food clothes and shelter.the same holy figures are revered[ for the most part] similar passionate points of view and belief in that which created all things… how can someone be chosen and someone else not be chosen but we’re all here dosen’t that mean we all have a higher cause some just aren’t aware i suppose

By Steve

February 9, 2006 05:02 PM | Link to this

Ever notice that whenever Bush speaks, no matter how we dress him, he looks like he’s talking from a portolet?

By Scooter

February 9, 2006 05:10 PM | Link to this

Getalife, How did the doctors thing go? All is as well as can be I hope. Firing on all cylinders and ready to tear down the halls of power are you?

Everyone seems to be speaking of religion and Isreal. This are things I know not much of so I will depart and catch ya’ll on the flip side. I am sure there are some who would debate if I know anything at all.

By ben e adam

February 9, 2006 05:21 PM | Link to this

hey man my futball team is booked up right now so don’t bring him on my squad as we all get along and seek no trouble…we are pretty good though for a bunch of feriners hey juan goni…how come some of the cartoons don’t bother you and then they’ve offended your cousins none of these were fake or real.they are ment to offend by someone bored trying to cause trouble…in the guise of freedumb let them be …being from similar liniage as you these are my cousins too,mabe we’re related?no…these drawings don’t bother me for it’s upon those who let it effect them.to react at all is human but we are not created anywhere near perfect we act out, everyone is going to be different.but how would the artists or other mockers feel if someone they held in the highest esteem was formally insulted and the new challange is to see how much we can defame divide and confuse the populus this is one of the goals of this new art show

By RE

February 9, 2006 05:28 PM | Link to this

It seems much of the conflict comes down to faith. God is without reason, or if that has a bad connotation to you, he is beyond reason. The men who follow God above all else then are also without reason, only faith. How can two men without reason agree to anything?

By Jewish and Proud of It

February 9, 2006 05:28 PM | Link to this

What are you talking about Ben? I get along with pretty much everyone…hehe

By Buy Danish

February 9, 2006 06:00 PM | Link to this

VOR - Who do YOU suggest clean up the U.N. if not a ‘Bush crony’? Michael Moore? Makik Shabaaz? Barbra Streisand? Slick Willie?

The mosques I speak of are mosques that are used for terrorist purposes and have been defiled by the very people who claim to be holy. You can remove the clerics I suppose, but that doesn’t make as big a statement and put fear into their turbans.

I’m having a bit of difficulty seeing the connection to Catholic Priests - they are pederasts and may destroy lives one by one, but they are not intent in destroying all of Western Civilization.

Re Howard Stern - The FCC is part of the government that works for “we, the people” and the people were complaining that his radio show was on occasion disgusting and unfit for the public airways. He was breaking rules that already existed and he was fined accordingly. He could have said whatever he wanted as long as he didn’t cross established lines, including criticizing the Bush Administration to his heart’s content. Free speech does have some legal and constitutional limits. The idea that Bush is the American equivalent of The Taliban is just absurd. Stern is trying to make himself into a heroic figure fighting for the free speech rights of Americans but but it doesn’t seem to be working. On topic to the pen and the sword, the cartoon intifada has nothing to do with the often vulgar Howard Stern.

By Buy Danish

February 9, 2006 06:02 PM | Link to this

testing testing one two three. My posts are not posting. Censorship at work or a computer glitch?

By Buy Danish

February 9, 2006 06:04 PM | Link to this

nevermind. Just a long delay…

By ben e adam

February 9, 2006 06:08 PM | Link to this

bro.proud of it you can come play with us if you play mid field with our palestinian brethren… RE: faith is the reason for reason.it is our way of communicating with each other,reasoning…even if we don’t see eye to eye my reason may be right and yours wrong in my view or viceversa…without and beyond reason whatever true faith is beyond being chosen it’s about service and work and disipline towards a goal of union with our maker

By N-GA

February 9, 2006 06:14 PM | Link to this

When we talk about free speech, it needs to be sincere. Just because you don’t like a cartoon (or some potty talk from a radio show DJ) doesn’t mean it should be censored. Fascists and Communists do that.

If you don’t like a cartoon, don’t buy the publication that prints it. If you don’t like Howard Stern on the radio, stop listening to the station and all the sponsors will go away. That will rectify the problem. Of course, when that doesn’t work because there are too many listeners, the right wing must resort to censorship.

Mr Buy Danish, you can call it a silk purse but it is really a sow’s ear. And everyone but you is honest enough to admit it.

By Scooter

February 9, 2006 06:23 PM | Link to this

N-GA how free were the protestors at the 2004 DNC convention?

By ben e adam

February 9, 2006 06:27 PM | Link to this

mr buy danish…most mosques aren’t run by terrorist or any thing of the sort.and because someone wears a turban doesn’t make them eeevil either.better change the nativity or else…so the catholic priests are probabally not wanting to destroy the west is this implying muslims and jews are?look what happened to the aboriginals of the now divided states.i don’t think muslims or jews did this,and back then they had plenty of influence throughout the world. F’the fcc and all that if mr stern is banned or whatever,can we still be living in freespeachville.how come the fcc has a limit but the europeans don’t? breaking existing rules made for some and imposed on others.constitutional limits? for who?well bushequivalance to the taliban is a bit absurd, at least they were up front about thier ideals,not saying they are all right but bushis way worse than they could ever be he’s a serious liar can’t read q cards well they should get should get someone like honest ron raygun again…mabe not

By N-GA

February 9, 2006 06:28 PM | Link to this

Scooter,

If you can’t see victory in a debate, you simply run to another issue. I can only presume that Buy Danish has run rather than admit he is utterly wrong about Howard Stern and right wing censorship. It is really no fun debating with chronic bed wetters. The color of their underwear matches the truth in their convictions. GWB & his administration are no better than the Islamic radicals he wants to defeat.

By Scooter

February 9, 2006 06:36 PM | Link to this

N-GA, I can see how you would think that, but I just check in and when I see partisanship, I point it out. I am a capitalist who loves the environment and believe in the general goodness of mankind. I don’t dig seeing republicrats or democrats ignoring their own faults. I generally don’t have musch time so snippets it is for now. But sometime we shall debate something, I can see, in your post, that we agree on some stuff. I also like to keep track of Getalife’s battle. See ya then

By RW-(the original)

February 9, 2006 06:37 PM | Link to this

Buy Danish,

This blog seems to that just about everyday. If it looks like your post is taking too long, open the blog in another window. Usually your post is already there long before the other page you have open acknowledges it.

If I want to stay in a conversation here I usually just go back and forth between windows.

By Soweto

February 9, 2006 06:49 PM | Link to this

N-GA,

I just wanted to challenge your economic theory. You suggested that Bush is responsible for jobs being shipped to China in an earlier post. Why do companies outsource jobs overseas? Because it is cheaper to do business there. The cost of government regulation, lawsuits, and union aggression have driven the price of American labor so high that it is cheaper to produce goods half a world away and ship them here. All of the reason listed above are darlings of the left. Or did I miss the Presidential proclamation ordering the captains of free enterprise to abandon the American ship? Don’t cloud arguments with ignorance of the facts under discussion.

By N-GA

February 9, 2006 06:59 PM | Link to this

Soweto, You must be confused. I have no posts whatsoever about the subject of jobs being shipped to China. Your profound apology is anticipated and accepted.

My only refence to China was an aside that said “(if the Chinese don’t own us by then)” which was intended to point out that our trade imbalances have created an untenable situation whereby China now has a dollar surplus exceeding $800 billion. They are helping to keep our interest rates artificially low because they have to do something with those dollars so they buy t-bills and mortgage paper. If they stopped buying those notes, interest rates would rise quickly. Do you want any more “ignorant” education on economics.

By Scott Byrnes

February 9, 2006 07:17 PM | Link to this

Looks like you are starting to get it, Mike. Islam may or may not be a “religion of peace”, but one thing’s for sure…Muslims do not like the First Amendment.

By Semper Fi

February 9, 2006 07:18 PM | Link to this

Actually American Manufacturing Institute, stated this week that 25 percent of the cost of manufacturing in America was for fulfilling government regulations.

Add in high liability cost and high wages. pretty much explains why these jobs are going overseas.

By Objective Observer

February 9, 2006 07:30 PM | Link to this

New Toon

By ben e adam

February 9, 2006 07:30 PM | Link to this

how do you know what muslims like or do not?amendments such as the first were created to give specific groups/religions rights.there were muslim laws from way back before columbus that gave similar rights to jews and christians.who amended the rights of the natives of the land where these new ”amendments” were made.do they have rights.or the slaves brought here to help the lazy folks do thier farming,were they given these ”rights.so i guess they are for a chosen few

By Soweto

February 9, 2006 07:33 PM | Link to this

N-GA, You missed again. You have the right to reduce the importance of your aside, after all it is your post, but it is the reason that I wrote you to begin with. You have quoted statistics to prove the situation “untenable”, but you have not gotten to the heart of the argument. Economics is not the ability to quote readily available statistics, but the search for the reasons those statistics exist. It is a search for incentives. And, as Semper Fi has so wonderfully pointed out, the incentives for companies are to move offshore. I agree with you: the situation is untenable. But the reason that it is dire is because of the type of argument that your “aside” exemplifies: mud-slinging. You insinuated that Bush is responsible for the job losses when the truth is otherwise. Stick to the argument at hand. The statistics and the aside have nothing to do with the discussion .

By Semper Fi

February 9, 2006 07:37 PM | Link to this

Sowento, Good post but Mike L(iberal) just posted a new cartoon. Why don’t you cut/paste your recent post as the beginning of the new toon. I agree with you.

By Scooter

February 9, 2006 08:02 PM | Link to this

Geez, I don’t know what would make companies want to locate here? Maybe the fairtax would do it as well as tax illegals? And incourage reuse of goods and kill of a little of the retail industry (good to some liberals)? And double tax illegal immigrants, becaus ethey would not get their prebate? And more, but no time. I’ll be back to check in.

I wonder who will come out against it because their political future depends on division by envy and animosity?

I wonder why China would want to see their investment in US “paper” not appreciate and pay dividends? Why would they do that N-GA?

By Soweto

February 9, 2006 08:10 PM | Link to this

Scooter, Your suggestions would require the use of reason. However, the left is in short supply these days on good, solid thinking. They have several strong political attacks: Name-calling, obscuration, lack of historical perspective, etc. But reason? That’s simply old-fashioned.

By Scooter

February 9, 2006 08:20 PM | Link to this

Sowento, I agree. However, there are so many variables to such a large plan, I try to emphasize the aspects that will appeal to the left. I think it is important to get the information to them early before their intelligent socialist leaders get them lost in the smarty pants nuance.

By Soweto

February 9, 2006 08:29 PM | Link to this

Scooter, Apparently we should be angry instead of intelligent. It works for Hillary.

By Scooter

February 9, 2006 08:43 PM | Link to this

Sowento, Yeah it works for Hillary but she steals from the rich and gives to the poor. The emotions of envy and animosity help feed her platform while the emotions shut down the reasonable thought.

I think some liberals are envious that they can’t give as much as the rich so they demonize the wealthy (creating animosity to disolve the recepient’s self respect) and use government to steal their wealth to redistribute in their name, democrat or progressive. The democrats who are being led into dependence simply want their third color T.V., or their second cell phone in their section 8 house.

Not to mention how everyone is suspicious of the man. It’s just some can stick it to him better than others.

Times up for me. I hope you stick around, if the liberals are left here alone they begin to speak in half truths and nuance. Like Al Franken today, with his line item, one on recording, debate with Limbaugh. Al F, is at least trying to look fair and balanced, today he had a “resident ditto head”, mark or mike, listen to Al talk right past the obvious and dedclare victory. It is kinda upsetting to listen to him insult my intellgence.

By Old school parent

February 10, 2006 11:57 AM | Link to this

ben e adam - It’s a bit difficult to follow your posts because they completely lack punctuation. Regarding terrorists and mosques, it is just so tedious to have to state the obvious, but here goes: Not EVERY mosque is a terrorist haven, arms depot, or route for convicted Al Qaeda murderers to escape from prison. See Yemen, current events, Interpol alert, tunnel from prison to mosque… Not every muslim is a terrorist. Okay? I specifically referred to those mosques that are used for terrorist purposes. My point is that appeasing evil does not conquer evil. Evil must be vanquished, and fear is a great motivator. Since islamofacist fanatics riot over innocuous satire and are gullible enough to believe that a photocopied picture of a man in a pig contest is actually a blashpemous cartoon, why worry about “inflaming their passions” (Ted Kennedy’s argument in opposition to regime change in Iraq)? They are inflamed over absolutely nothing, so why not score a few military victories while the ignorant cowards are busy having an international riot. Do you all ever notice how there are only “men” in these group hate fests? Where are all the women? Too gentle a sex to participate or merely prisoners in their own domain? It must be so neat to be a woman in these countries, welcoming your “man” home after a day of venting - fed by dreams of raping virgins. Charming.

BTW, someone pointed out yesterday (Fox?)that it was obvious that these riots were premeditated and stoked by the Iranians et al. The evidence? How many Danish flags do you think are available to burn on any given day under ordinary circumstances in the Muslim world? It would be fun to check the Danish Flag manufacturers’ shipping receipts to see how many cartons shipped to the Middle East.

Going to play with my Legos and eat a Danish…

By emily watkins

February 10, 2006 04:16 PM | Link to this

AJC published sketches of Coretta Kings’body in a horse driven carriage to the Capitol. Who was the artist?

By J. Hussein

February 12, 2006 10:32 PM | Link to this

I think as a muslim there is a very low level of understanding in the west of what muslims believe and what Islam is really is. Most people in the west get there knowledge about Islam from the news, and we all know what that is “violence, killing, and more killing”. So it is easy for most Americans to label Muslims as terrorists and angry poeple. If people would take the time to learn about each other I think we would treat each other with more respect and acceptance.

By Buy Danish

February 13, 2006 05:40 PM | Link to this

J. Hussein - Is this a joke, or are you serious?