Mike Luckovich

By RW-(the original)

November 2, 2005 01:18 AM | Link to this

Forget the little bird cartoon, there is big news on this day of the “I Hate America” rally.

Momma Moonbat, aka the women who trashed the memory of Army Spc. Casey Sheehan, is running for Preident!

By Andy

November 2, 2005 04:54 AM | Link to this

If cartoon boy thinks there can be payback for birds, what does he think about unborn children?

By Tom Wesley

November 2, 2005 07:06 AM | Link to this

Nice cartoon, Mike. Cute.

By Michael Miller

November 2, 2005 07:06 AM | Link to this

What’s with the wingnuts and what do their comments have to do with this cartoon?

Mike “cartoon boy” Luckovich and Jay Bookman are American treasures. They are the only reasons I visit this paper.

The protestors, such as the well informed Cindy Sheehan, love America or they wouldn’t do this only to put up with people who claim to love America but clearly can’t stand Americans.

Oh, and good cartoon.

By gullah

November 2, 2005 07:27 AM | Link to this

“Forget the little bird cartoon, there is big news on this day of the “I Hate Americaâ€? rally.

Momma Moonbat, aka the women who trashed the memory of Army Spc. Casey Sheehan, is running for Preident!”

Sir, how dare you to use the name of a dead American soldier to attack his mother? Have you not shred of honor or decency?

I take it that also would not agree with the following:

Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.

I like to believe that people in the long run are going to do more to promote peace than our governments. Indeed, I think that people want peace so much that one of these days governments had better get out of the way and let them have it.

Here in America we are descended in blood and in spirit from revolutionists and rebels - men and women who dare to dissent from accepted doctrine. As their heirs, may we never confuse honest dissent with disloyal subversion.

By Dusty

November 2, 2005 07:42 AM | Link to this

Cindy Sheehan is running for the presidency of WHAT? Cuba? Shangrila? OZ? Her son died to give freedom to the oppressed. She continues to try and ruin his sacrifice.

And what’s with Luckovich? Has he turned “chicken ” or is he just a “turkey”? His last two cartoons should be hanging on his refrigerator along with the children’s school pictures. Oh well, check his price list. You can still buy one for less than $300.

By elizabeth reed

November 2, 2005 07:48 AM | Link to this

I rarely dislike any of Lukovich cartoons but bird flu is not funny. The mess in Congress is rich with irony now that Democrats are finally fighting back. The hypocrocity of the actions of the Senate “completion” of the investigation of possible White House involvement in manipulating intelligence to suit their lust for war bears editorial comment.

By Madonna Swanson Ward

November 2, 2005 07:52 AM | Link to this

Mike, would you be willing to marry my daughter? I’d like you for a son-in-law!

By Malachi

November 2, 2005 07:59 AM | Link to this

Andy, Chris, Matt, Dusty, and RW(the original), go away. It is a cartoon talking about the bird flu. It’s a joke. You guys are way too uptight. Complain, complain, complain.

Luckovich could draw a cartoon honoring Bush, and you guys would have something to complain about. “Bush’s nose looks to big.” “Bush’s eyes look distorted.” Get a life and a hobby.

By Dusty

November 2, 2005 08:12 AM | Link to this

Malachi, you are absolutely correct. All of Luckovich’s cartoons are a joke. Maybe I will enjoy them when AJC puts them in the comic section.

Complain? Who is complaining? That is honest dissent which Geechee has explained at length. We are helping our country by pointing out a few of the lunatics foisted upon us by liberals. Cindy is ready when you are.

By John Q.

November 2, 2005 08:15 AM | Link to this

Finally, something funny. Esp w/ the story yesterday about deer now attacking people in California.

By Bobb

November 2, 2005 08:22 AM | Link to this

I never understood why the Pilgrams all had buckles on their hats.

By ted

November 2, 2005 08:36 AM | Link to this

Mike’s cartoon was the second funniest comedy on the op/ed page this morning. We were treated to another performance by my favorite wacked out conspiracy theorist and ex-Senator, Zell. It must be really fast to write one of those when you don’t have to do any research and just make it all up. Maybe Mike won’t have such stiff competition tomorrow.

By Chris

November 2, 2005 08:41 AM | Link to this

Hey, I could care less about the cartoon, this is just a good forum for a little harmless political debate Malachi!

By RW-(the original)

November 2, 2005 09:05 AM | Link to this

Ted’s right about the contrast in todays editorial section.

On the one hand we have a cartoon about a disease that isn’t, as yet, capable of human to human transmission, being portrayed as a conspiracy by the avian community.

On the other hand, we finally have someone that will factually point out that Joe Wilson is a total liar and his wife is complicit in an attempt to undermine our government.

Maybe, one day soon, we can investigate the real crime in this sham.

Thank God for the last great American democrat, Zell Miller!

By gttim

November 2, 2005 09:06 AM | Link to this

I am damn proud to be a liberal and damn proud to be a Democrat. Anybody who supports people’s rights over corporate rights, freedom over government restrictions and incursions into private bedrooms, and loves this wonderful land that needs protecting is called a “lefty looney” by faux conservatives? I will gladly wear that title. I love America and will protect it, and its soldiers, from the GOP and southern rubes who do not pay attention to the truth.

Are you glad to see Bush promising to spend over 7 billion dollars of your money? Guess whose pockets it is going into? Funny, Europe is well prepared with stocks of shota for all their citizens. Bush has screwed up AGAIN, and is going to use the opportunity to tranfer taxpayer’s money to wealthy coporations.

Thanks Mike!

By Yoo

November 2, 2005 09:06 AM | Link to this

witty & cute!

By Cherish

November 2, 2005 09:06 AM | Link to this

Good gracious people! It’s meant to be a joke. We all know how serious the bird flu is, but you have to add a little humor to life to go on.

By Chris

November 2, 2005 09:11 AM | Link to this

So Bush has screwed up in wanting $7B for flu prep. Well, then how about he doesn’t ask for a dime. No support for the health and welfare of the nation, just forget about this bird flu that, (probably won’t-i want to throw in) but could become a pandemic and kill half the world! So if Bush hadn’t asked for the money, you would bash him about that! Choose a side, support your opinion, don’t just criticize him because you don’t like him, that’s ignorant!

By quanxavier

November 2, 2005 09:31 AM | Link to this

Great cartoon Mike! The ‘Cons’ are wound too tight this morning. As for W asking for 7 billion in flu pandemic money…does he really have a good track record for addressing a flu crisis? Let me see how he’s done in the past flu season: long lines, mass confusion, and the people wasting away waiting. Oh I’m sorry that was Katrina.

By Eric

November 2, 2005 09:46 AM | Link to this

Hey Andy. There are no unborn children. Duh!

By Chris

November 2, 2005 09:49 AM | Link to this

Yes, every problem in this nation since 2000 has been his fault, yes you hit the nail on the head there. I guess he’s at fault for Vietnam too huh? And Pearl Harbor? Bush’s fault. Again, before you people put blame on Bush-DO YOUR HOMEWORK!

By Andy

November 2, 2005 09:58 AM | Link to this

Hey Eric- Sorry if I struck a nerve. I was just commenting on the underlying theme of this cartoon, which is the “holocaust” that PETA claims humans are inflicting on the furry little creatures of the animal kingdom. The same liberals that have no issue whatsoever with snatching an unborn child from its mothers womb and drilling a hole in it’s head.

Just because you enjoy getting lied to doesn’t make it my problem.

By Ava

November 2, 2005 10:01 AM | Link to this

It’s obvious, after reading the comments on this blog over the past few days, that there are people who are going to rtash anything Luckovich draws, regardless, because he’s had the temerity to take digs at the cows the extreme right holds sacred. Yet, these are the people who in the same breath accuse him of being closed-minded!

With regard to Cindy Sheehan, well said, gullah. She’s guilty of nothing more than extreme grief and anger over what she perceives as her son’s being sacrificed for a lie— a perception to which she is entitled, and a perception that she is not alone in holding amongst mothers of children killed in Iraq. This poster, and the others who are jumping on his bandwagon, has the nerve to pretend to hold her son dear whilst trashing his mother in the same breath! To those people, I say: do you honestly believe that Spc. Sheehan would appreciate you denigrating his mother, regardless of how he himself might have felt about his service (a feeling, I might add, of which NONE of you has ANY personal knowledge whatsoever)?? I think not. He’d more likely have knocked you sideways before shoving his combat boot-clad foot up your collective arses.

By quanxavier

November 2, 2005 10:04 AM | Link to this

Chris - Ironic enough you hit the nail on the head traditionally when a period of time in the country is referenced is normally associated with the president at the time.

For example(moon walk - Kennedey, Iran hostages - Carter, IranContra - Regan, Gulf War - Bush I, Lewinsky - Clinton, Bumbling Idiot — Bush II )

So your right! Its Bush’s fault since 2000. Congrats you got something right!

By Chris

November 2, 2005 10:09 AM | Link to this

Ava-no of us know what it’s like? I’m in the military and like I said the other day, there is not one soldier over there that was held at gunpoint at the time of their enlistment or commission. As far as Cindy goes, she is disgracing her son’s name and I even saw an interview with one of her followers who said if given the chance, he would support the insurr. That is disgusting. Whether you agree or disagree with the war-it is appauling that someone in this country would not support their military. It makes me sick to my stomach-literally. When someone joins the military, they make a promise that if the time comes, they are willing to give their life for you Ava. I just think you need to be a little more thankful for your military instead of taking the side of anti-Americanism-yes it’s a word, I just made it up!!!

By RW-(the original)

November 2, 2005 10:19 AM | Link to this

First moon landing-July 20, 1969

President Kennedy assassinated-November 22, 1963

So is quanxavier telling us that sometimes things happen as a result of policies of your predecessor?

By Totally disgusted

November 2, 2005 10:32 AM | Link to this

Apparently Eric supports abortion. Too bad his mother didn’t go through with hers.

By quanxavier

November 2, 2005 10:37 AM | Link to this

RW - Clever! But Bush II is a two-term president so his successor is himself. The build up for the war was initiated in 02’ if just rely on the administration’s word, but common sense and proven facts have shown that the plan was already in place. I also believe that the Clinton transition team emphasized Al Quaeda and the need to address this organization. But the ‘Bush’ grownups shooed away the ‘Clinton’ children and began bleaching floors and burning the curtains of the oval office.

By Chris

November 2, 2005 10:42 AM | Link to this

Ofcourse that’s when the war was initiated, Jan. ‘02, you got the facts, but did you forget one thing? A few planes dive bombing into our nation? What would’ve Gore done then? Gone to war, he would’ve attacked the people who did this and we would be sitting where we are today still pointing fingers. It’s useless to point fingers, the war happened, there is nothing you can do to change it

By Bob

November 2, 2005 10:42 AM | Link to this

Wow, glad to see Mike put away the “DNC Playbook for cartoons”. Good for you Mike!

By Ava

November 2, 2005 10:45 AM | Link to this

Chris, please re-read my post. I said that NO ONE on this board has ANY personal knowledge whatsoever about what Spc. Sheehan’s feelings would have been about his mother’s protest. And unless you’re somehow in touch with the dead, you don’t either. His mother’s grief and anger have led her to believe that she must protest his death for a cause that she now feels wasn’t what he was told he was going over there for— do you really think he’d agree that she’s somehow tarnishing his sacrifice? You’re obviously feeling offended by what you perceive as people’s lack of support for the military when they voice their disagreement with the current war. That simply isn’t true. Many of your fellow citizens feel that the current situation in Iraq is a tragedy, because they believe that the reasons our military were sent there turned out to be untrue. I’m sorry that you feel that this translates into a lack of support or appreciation for our armed forces, because that couldn’t be further from the truth, at least from my standpoint. It’s so different now than when a lot of people protesting the Vietnam war took out their disgust on the soldiers themselves— this was, and is, a scar on our collective conscience. No one’s spitting on our soldiers now— rather, the protesters simply don’t want any more of them to die for what they see as a cause built on lies. It doesn’t make them unpatriotic, it doesn’t make them unsupportive of the military, and it doesn’t mean that they don’t appreciate our servicemen and women for doing a thankless task that seems to have no end in sight. I should hope that your personal philosophies, while quite different from theirs, wouldn’t blind you to this fact. I would also hope that you could discern the difference in disagreeing with the manner in which Ms. Sheehan is protesting from calling her names and belittling her grief over her son. It only lumps you in with the small-minded, and detracts from your point.

By quanxavier

November 2, 2005 10:47 AM | Link to this

Chris - Let me clarify myself Gore is not president. Its amazing how you contradict yourself first you say what would Gore do but later you say what’s done is done (Bush is president). If I might borrow from Rumsfeld ‘We went to war with the president we had not the president we wanted’ :)

By Chris

November 2, 2005 10:51 AM | Link to this

No kidding, all I’m saying is that whoever the president was during 9/11 whether it WAS Bush, or if Gore had won, or Bugs Bunny, we would of had the same outcome: war. I know Gore is a tree hugger, but he would’ve done the same thing

By quanxavier

November 2, 2005 10:51 AM | Link to this

Chris - So if we are defending our nation from the 9/11 attacks why are we in Iraq again. The hijackers were Saudi, trained in Aghfanistan, and here’s the dirty little secret tranined to fly airplanes here in America.

By Colonel Kurtz

November 2, 2005 10:59 AM | Link to this

Chris, I don’t know if you’ve ever had a shot fired at you in anger or not. You are right that nobody held a gun to anyones head at enlistment. And it is true that most military men and women are there to serve their country, there comes a time in combat when the idealism wears off, the questions arise, and the troops fight because it is their duty, but most of all they fight for one another. I am a retired military officer and West Point grad. While serving in El Salvador during the Salvadoran Civil War, I had doubts as to the politics of our involvement. And that was at the rank of Lt. Col. Not supporting a war does not equate to not supporting the men and women fighting the war. Furthermore, dissent is a fundamental right in this country and men and women die protecting that right. As awful as it seems for someone to say that they would fight with the insurgents, the fact of the matter is that it is that person’s right in this country to hold that view. That is what freedom is about and what many have died protecting. Those of you who bash dissenters to stiffle their dissent need to evaluate your own agenda. Do you truly believe in freedom for all or just freedom for those of a particular opinion?

By Dusty

November 2, 2005 11:02 AM | Link to this

Chris, try not to pay much attention to naive people like Ava. Most Americans realize that Cindy Sheehan is more interested in publicity, stunts and lies than she is into grief.

But Americans do cringe each time we lose one of our troops. It hurts so much. They are our bravest and strongest fighting a war far away. Try to excuse our timid toadies who had rather fight political wars than fight the real war against terrorism.

By Ava

November 2, 2005 11:04 AM | Link to this

Let me offer a different perspective: had the Republican’s been smart enough to nominate McCain for President back in 2000, he would’ve won in a landslide, there wouldn’t have been the Florida election fiasco, when 9/11 occurred, we would’ve gone to Afghanistan & taken care of business first before committing troops & money we didn’t have somewhere else, and if we HAD moved on Iraq, you can bet it wouldn’t have been on the ever-changing grounds given by this Administration. What’s more, we’d still have the respect and support of the rest of the world.

But I guess making sure gays can’t marry supercedes having a leader who isn’t ruled by his daddy’s former cronies. It’s said a people deserve the people they elect— well, I sure don’t feel like I deserve this current bunch. Clinton was a rotter and a philanderer, but at least I didn’t have to worry about having my civil liberties steadily eaten away.

By kimberly

November 2, 2005 11:06 AM | Link to this

Quanzavier, (cool name!) To answer your question, the reason the Bush administration pulled troops out of Afghanistan to invade Iraq is simple: The Saudis were and still are long-time business partners and good buddies of the Bush crime family. They will stand loyal to the Saudis no matter what crimes they commit against the American people. Didn’t you see the photos of Bush holding hands with the Saudi prince, skipping through a field of blue bonnets last April? Falala… skip to my loooooo….

By RW-(the original)

November 2, 2005 11:10 AM | Link to this

Someone from a party that has nominated Al Gore and John Kerry the last two times out has no business questioning the intelligence of the other party.

Ava, you might want to check McCains position. He might have strategy differences, but he supports the war in Iraq. Could you list any civil liberty you have actually lost?

By quanxavier

November 2, 2005 11:12 AM | Link to this

Kimberly - Thanx. I totally agree with you and Ava. The wool over some the ‘Cons’ bloggers eyes are so thick.

By Wild Sects

November 2, 2005 11:17 AM | Link to this

Sure Gore would ahve gone to war but he wouldn’t have invaded Iraq. He would have stayed in Afghanistan until Bin Laden was capyured or killed.

The neocons had Iraq in their sights before 9/11. Can anyone explain why we virtually abandoned Bin Laden to attack Saddam who wasn’t going anywhere and wasn’t an immediate threat to us. Al-Queda is a threat.

By Ava

November 2, 2005 11:18 AM | Link to this

Dust-farter, you in particular are one of the biggest dogs in the meathouse when it comes to ragging on & demonizing those with whom you disagree. Let Chris think for himself— and answer for himself. Naive? You have nothing other than your personal beliefs to support the opinions you spout here— just like most everyone else who posts. You’re one of the most uncivil, uninformed posters on this board, and I’ve no doubt that you wouldn’t have the stones to say half the crap you say here to anyone’s face. It’s a lot harder to debate without resorting to nastiness & denigration than it is to actually try to see the other person’s point, but for sure you’d get taken a lot more seriously. You ought to try it.

By Chris

November 2, 2005 11:21 AM | Link to this

Colonel Kurtz, I do not try to force my political opinions on others. Everyone has a right to speak and hold their own opinions. That is what makes our country so great. But it just hurts me to see how some people treat the troops. For example, last summer we had just gotten back into the country after spending 7 1/2 miserable months in the 130+ degree weather of the middle east. We had about 5 hours to kill in BWI so what did we do? Spent it at a bar! There were so many people there giving their congrats and thanks to our hard work and it made me feel good. Then a young woman in business attire approached us and told us we were wrong. How can we sit here and celebrate what we have accomplished? She went on about how WE, the troops, were the reason other countries hated us. You know, there were probably 20 people or so that were giving thanks and this one woman ruined my whole afternoon. All I am saying is that these troops need support. How can they do their job knowing there are people like Cindy out there doing what she is doing? If any of you out there see a soldier at the airport or wherever, if you are passing by dobbins and have a chance to stop by the gate, shake a soldiers hand, if this war is a mistake, which I’m not saying it is, they still need your support

By RW-(the original)

November 2, 2005 11:22 AM | Link to this

It looks like you guys to put down the computers and hit the streets. News from the “I hate America” rally, Atlanta edition, doesn’t seem to be going well.

http://www.worldcantwait.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=37&Itemid=84

By Ava

November 2, 2005 11:24 AM | Link to this

RW, where do you get off assuming I’m a Democrat?

And McCain supports the troops, and, like most of those who now know that we were sold a bill of goods to get us into Iraq, he supports staying the course. Have NO doubts, though— he wouldn’t have taken us into Iraq

By Chris

November 2, 2005 11:24 AM | Link to this

I don’t mind the comments of people like Ava or kimberly, at least they have things to support their opinions! I just hate the people who come in here and say, Oh Chris-your an idiot, Bush hates everyone, The GOP sucks! Thats great, where are the facts!!!

By RW-(the original)

November 2, 2005 11:26 AM | Link to this

Ava,

The thousand word posts and the demands to read them made you seem like a democrat. Sorry.

By Teresa

November 2, 2005 11:29 AM | Link to this

Oh RW and Dusty, here you go again, off on a crazy tangent. Straitjackets on the way!

Such a cute cartoon, Mike.

By quanxavier

November 2, 2005 11:30 AM | Link to this

Chris - Are you referring to me? What facts do you seek? I will surely provide you with examples.

By Chris

November 2, 2005 11:31 AM | Link to this

no quanxavier, your ok too, I think it was malachi yest. who only posted about how he hated bush

By Ava

November 2, 2005 11:33 AM | Link to this

RW, where do you get off assuming I’m a Democrat? And even if I was, to imply that nominating Kerry was less intelligent than nominating Bush and that abomination Cheney is WAY too much of a stretch. I’ve never voted Democrat in my life, but Kerry & what’s-his-name couldn’t possibly have screwed up worse than this lot.

McCain supports the troops, period. Like most of those who now know that we were sold a bill of goods to get us into Iraq, he supports staying the course, but he voted “Yea” based on the information Congress was given at the time. Have NO doubts, though— he wouldn’t have taken us into Iraq based upon false premises. Anybody who knows anythign about McCain knows that he has nothing but disdain for George II and his ilk. And anybody who apreciates the honorable man McCain is would be sickened, as I was, by how Bush and his cronies slandered him during the campaign (by, among other things, implying that he’d had a bi-racial child out of wedlock when he & his wife actually adopted a Bangladeshi orphan). And yet, the very people who get offended about anyone disagreeing with Bush have NOTHING to say about that. THAT, my friend, seems ultimately hypocritical to me.

By RW-(the original)

November 2, 2005 11:34 AM | Link to this

Teresa,

How have you been? Are they letting you use the wood pencils yet?

By Chris

November 2, 2005 11:35 AM | Link to this

Ava-go to this website if you get a chance: [http://www.massgraves.info]

By John Q

November 2, 2005 11:37 AM | Link to this

How in the world did we get from turkey to Cindy Sheehan. She’s a mother and like most parents greave profusely at the loss of a child. Unfortunatly, she’s going about her objection to the war the wrong way and to some has disparagd the memory of her son. Her son’s death, although tragic is an expected outcome in time of war. Her son enlisted of his own free will and served proudly. Some of you will disagree but unless you’ve picked up a rifle and stood your post you wouldn’t understand. Our military does not have the luxury of being political. They are there to serve and follow orders. I really love the saying “we support the troops but we’re against the war!â€? Unfortuantly, these are the same people who believe that there is such a thing as civilized warfare and want grunts tried as criminals for things done for God and country. There are complaints that nobody did anything to stop 9/11 and now that we’ve taken the battle to Mr. I hate America’s doorstep you still complain. You bash the President for taking action but I’d wager you’d make the same calls to have his head on a pike if he didn’t take any action. I’d go ever furhter to wager that most of you who are complaining, in addition to never having served in the military, only vote on rare occasions, would trample the rights of the majority for one or two fanatics on issues like the pledge of allegiance and won’t close your pie-holes during the national anthem. It’s sad to say that from head to toe, this country has lost its collective mind but that’s my two cents worth.

By Louise Williams

November 2, 2005 11:37 AM | Link to this

Hi Mike,

When I lived in Atlanta, I started following your cartoons. Relocating back to VA only in the Sunday paper I get to see them. I started collecting them also before I left. Some of your toons are very funny. I’m a toonist myself not media. Then some are not but 90% are. But I always enjoyed your toons. I’m African American.

By RW-(the original)

November 2, 2005 11:39 AM | Link to this

Ava,

Ignoring the answer, when you asked me the first time, and going hysterical is really blowing your cover.

I’m not sure why you would call me “friend”, you don’t sound particularly friendly.

By Chris

November 2, 2005 11:39 AM | Link to this

Thank you John, I think you summed it up nicely

By Ava

November 2, 2005 11:39 AM | Link to this

RW— sorry about the double-post (I must’ve hit something before I was done). Yes, I do tend to make lengthy posts— but only because there are SO many people who don’t bother to try to put any real thought into what they’re saying. Just skip ahead to the “good parts” whenever…;-)

By RW-(the original)

November 2, 2005 11:43 AM | Link to this

Ava,

OK, now you sound friendly.

Maybe this blog is just going crazy like yesterday when the posts would come and go at will.

By Ava

November 2, 2005 11:45 AM | Link to this

“Hysterical”?? Your perceptions are certainly off-kilter, RW. There’s nothing on this board, including you, that could make me hysterical. And I was just using “friend” as a euphemism. Lighten up.

By Jay

November 2, 2005 11:48 AM | Link to this

I think what Mike L is actually trying to say is that you should not eat turkey this Thanksgiving.

By Chris

November 2, 2005 11:48 AM | Link to this

I want everyone to forget about Bush bashing for a minute and think about a couple of questions I have. Why are we in this war? Many people think because of oil. But think back to WWII. What happened there? Hitler was trying to take over the world before we were even in the war. Killing Jews left and right. Saddam: killing Kurds left and right. What got us officially in WWII? Pearl Harbor. We went after the Japanese because of their attack and then went after the Germans. 9/11, the Al Q. attacked our country and then we went after Sad. H. So it isnt like this hasn’t happened before. It needed to be done. I would like some input!

By Chris

November 2, 2005 11:49 AM | Link to this

Jay I think you got it!

By Dusty

November 2, 2005 11:51 AM | Link to this

Ava, were you talking to me? I don’t read graffiti so I missed you. Could it be that I am accustomed to engaging in conversations with intelligent people? Well, yes I am. Yours doesn’t cut it. Maybe you could chat with Teresa.

By Bee Ess Detector.

November 2, 2005 11:53 AM | Link to this

Ava, don’t let RW rile you up, take a look at all his posts in this current blog. Its pretty clear he isn’t here for the debate.

Notice the pattern? Lack of substance? Lol.

By Ava

November 2, 2005 12:01 PM | Link to this

John Q & Chris,

From my perspective as a woman: I have to say that if you were my son, Chris, it wouldn’t be difficult to distinguish my love & pride for you and your military service from being wreaked with worry and sorrow at the prospect that you’d been sent to war under a pretext that simply wasn’t true. And if you were killed while carrying out your duties, my pride in your service would not, could not, diminish my rage and grief that you’d been sacrificed for a cause that was based on lies. If you were my child and someone had put you into harm’s way when you needn’t have been sent in the first place, I’d want to know why, and I’d want answers, no matter what I had to do to get them. As hard as it would be to lose you in an honorable conflict, I couldn’t live with knowing that you died for anything BUT a just cause. That, John Q, is how people can say they love & support our troops but do not support this war. That’s how I imagine Cindy Sheehan must feel— but of course, since I don’t know her personally, I can only give you my perspective. Chris, I hope you can understand, just a little, where I’m coming from, even if you disagree with me. I also hope you know that so many of us pray for our troops’ safety every day, even as we pray for a pullout from Iraq. Please don’t think that the protesters aren’t thinking of you & don’t feel for you— I’m positive that the vast majority of them do. Sure, there may be some of them who protest simply because they despise Bush’s policies, but even those people aren’t consciously trying to give “aid and comfort” to the enemy at your expense. I hope you’ll take that with you, and remember it whenever you feel that your service isn’t appreciated.

By RW-(the original)

November 2, 2005 12:02 PM | Link to this

BED,

Providing a link for our activist “euphemisms” and historical dates relevent to the “Kennedy/moon landing” is certainly more substance than:

Iraq was not a threat In spite of sanctions, no-fly zones, and oil-for-castles bribery scandals.

Europe has all the vaccine they need for bird flu

Even though that isn’t possible, yet.

Republicans should have nominated McCain

The dems could have had him for the top slot.

There is no such thing as an unborn child

Unless you are John Edwards screwing the medical profession in court.

etc., etc.

By Chris

November 2, 2005 12:08 PM | Link to this

Thank you Ava, I relize that is what the anti war people want, but it is like I was telling the colonial earlier, It only takes one person to come up to me and tell me how wrong I am and that I should burn in hell for upholding the orders of the President of the United States like I have sworn to do. It only takes one to hurt someone so deeply for doing something they think is helping their country. I’m not trying to cry like a baby or anything, but where did all the patriotism go? go to http://www.thebisch.com/archives/2005/09/91101-four-years-later / if you get a chance, guy brings up a good point, thanks again Ava, RW’s right, your not so bad!

By kimberly

November 2, 2005 12:12 PM | Link to this

Chris, you raise some good questions — questions that lead ME to think we cannot trust a word that comes from the mouths of our leaders. Knowing WWII history only from books, movies, TV (remember “World at War?”) and my father, I wondered why we let the British people get pounded for nearly three years before helping them? I wondered about all the nations who turned their backs on stories of the Holocaust that went on for years. There are lot of things about a world war that don’t make sense.

But the war in Iraq makes even less sense, as the story from our own government changed over and over. I don’t remember hearing Bush say “Save the Kurds!” in 2003, do you? I mean, our government sanctioned Sadaam’s murerous dictatorship for years before moving against it.

But the FACTS regarding 9-11 are that SAUDI citizens attacked us… and Bin Laden has not been caught, and troops were pulled from that effort to invade Iraq (no Saudis to be harmed) while highly-paid civilians take our tax money to “rebuild.” You’re right Chris. It doesn’t make much sense to me either. No credibility. No trust.

By quanxavier

November 2, 2005 12:13 PM | Link to this

Chris - You could not be more wrong about WWII. The US could have cared less about what was taking place in Hilter’s Europe. Yes Peal Harbor was the impetus for the US involvement but it was the possible aligning of the Japan, USSR, and Germany that compelled the US to seek Hilter and subsquently drop the A-bomb on the Japanese isles. Please if you really want to do the war comparsion look at the similarility Vietnam. I’m not talking about the guerilla conflict that picks off our soliders one by one.

Look at the politics: the US trains individuals to defeat a communist government and sets up puppet governments because it ‘threatens’ our democracy however many times the same individuals turns and cuts the strings that controls them. Saddam, Noreiga, bin Laden and Charles Taylor were all supported by the US at one point to defeat a government that the US opposes. Its a flawed policy no matter who’s in office.

By kimberly

November 2, 2005 12:17 PM | Link to this

But not trusting my lying President or hide-the-truth Senators does not mean that I don’t respect and care about our soldiers. Colonel Kurtz probably served under many different Commanders in Chief. His loyalty and service was to the American people, and I thank him.

By Ava

November 2, 2005 12:21 PM | Link to this

Chris, I’m assuming you’re still fairly young (by my standards), so just know that as you get older, the random opinions of rank strangers will matter less and less to you. Until you reach that point, however, just try not to internalize things that people say to you like what that young woman in the bar. They’ve lost sight of the fact that it isn’t a choice for our military folks to do anything other than carry out the duties they’re assigned. I’m no religious expert, but I feel pretty confident you’re not going to “burn in hell” for doing your job. You just keep on keeping on, and do whatever you can to stay alive & get through your tour in one piece. That’s what I wish for you, even if we later disagree on other points on other days(which I’m certain we will, but that’s another discussion).

By RW-(the original)

November 2, 2005 12:31 PM | Link to this

Here’s a good companion peice to the Zell Miller article.

LATimes

In his attempts to turn his wife into an antiwar martyr, Joseph C. Wilson IV has retailed more whoppers than Burger King.

Priceless! (and susstantive)

By Ricky

November 2, 2005 12:32 PM | Link to this

Quanxavier, you are dead wrong about WWII. Many people in America and in FDR’s administration were very concerned with what was going on in Hitler’s Europe. Alot of politicians at the time were isolationists because of the horrors of WWI. But FDR was in secret meetings with Churchill to get us involved, he was just looking for a reason. Pearl Harbor provided him with that reason. We were already supplying Britian with supplies and material before we entered the war with troops. And they weren’t concerned with Russia aligning with Germany and Japan, the Russians were already fighting both of them. After the hell that the Nazi’s wrought in Russia, there was no way they were going to side with Germany. And you can’t conduct your foreign policy on what might happen down the road. You have to do what is right for you country at that time. The world is too much of a Hobbesian culture to try and predict what will happen 5-10 years down the road.

By Chris

November 2, 2005 12:36 PM | Link to this

I am Ava, I’ll be 25 in a few months. You know, I heard a story about a woman who wants the Flag off of Georgia’s license plates! I hope that’s not true.

By Chris

November 2, 2005 12:38 PM | Link to this

Quanxavie, what about Iran and Sudan? Should we just sit by and let them take their course or should we intervene? (if i spelt that right, I was always a bad speller)

By Daniel

November 2, 2005 12:39 PM | Link to this

I have no faith in this government. I continue to believe we are a great country and a great people. We can and will straighten this mess out. I fear things are going to have to get much, much worse before things change. Chris: it is not your service, it is the tortured politics and dishonesty of the government. Our leadership is incompetent. What ever happened to fair play and decency among us? It starts at the top. We can do so much better. There are talented people in the republican party. They just aren’t leading the country right now.

By Jay

November 2, 2005 12:41 PM | Link to this

I can’t believe it, Mike L made that turkey’s likeness to John Kerry! I guess he really is a Conservative Liberal.

By Matt

November 2, 2005 12:42 PM | Link to this

Daniel, you know where fair play and decency ended? When Robert Bork was crucified during his confirmation hearings. That was the begining of the character assination and gotcha game of politics that is hampering our political process began. It continued with the Clinton impeachment hearings and has continued to this day

By Chris

November 2, 2005 12:47 PM | Link to this

Cheer up Kimberly!

By Daniel

November 2, 2005 12:49 PM | Link to this

Matt: At some point we have to turn this around. My generation (I’m a senior) has benefited greatly from great American governments in the past. I enlisted in service when Dwight Eisenhower was president. We can and must change this. I fear the government is squandering Chris’ future. We will pay dearly for the gross excesses of this government.

By Chris

November 2, 2005 12:57 PM | Link to this

Daniel, I am very proud to have served under George Bush and I support him, I don’t see my future being squandered. I’m sure you’ve got some great stories. Have any of you driven through Duluth on Buford Hwy? They have crosses out with the names of WWII and Vietnam Vets on them for Veterens Day. Gives me goosebumps

By Chris

November 2, 2005 01:01 PM | Link to this

Here, I’ll make everyone laugh, this is funny: http://www.americancomedynetwork.com/FLASH/soldiers.htm

By Daniel

November 2, 2005 01:11 PM | Link to this

Chris: Here is a big concern of mine. Answer this: How long can we borrow 2 Billion dollars a day from Asia? To keep this economy afloat the goverment borrows 2B every day. 60B a month. They haven’t balanced a budget in years. This seems phony to me. Our Congress votes pork barrel deals with borrowed money. We’re fighting a war on borrowed money. One day, hopefully soon, the government will create a job, balance a budget and stop borrowing. Your generation will pay dearly for these excesses. Our nation needs to tighten it’s belt. If we don’t others will do it for us. And that will be a sad day indeed.

By Chris

November 2, 2005 01:16 PM | Link to this

Daniel, every country borrows from every other country, it’s the facts of life, none of that money will be payed back! I wish I could get a home loan like that!

By Daniel

November 2, 2005 01:21 PM | Link to this

Chris: You really are 25!

By candide

November 2, 2005 01:27 PM | Link to this

Nature is red in tooth and claw and will get revenge if you abuse it.

This leads me directly to the Bush clique, which has abused this country too long. It will get its comeuppance. I hope to see Bush strangled in the last entrails of the last evangelical.

By Chris

November 2, 2005 01:27 PM | Link to this

Thanks, I thought I was going to have to check my driver’s license

By David W.

November 2, 2005 01:30 PM | Link to this

Mike. Funny cartoon but are you trying to tell us that you’ve secretly joined PETA? I think all

PEOPLE should ENJOY TASTY ANIMALS

especially Turkey at Thanksgiving!!

By kimberly

November 2, 2005 01:30 PM | Link to this

Haha! Yes, Chris, HONEY…. At 25 you really don’t understand money yet. TRUST Daniel on this one. The “borrow and spend” policy that has us trillions in debt to China is BAD… It’s BAD, I say.. not prudent at this juncture! You have your youth and your lil’ PX card now… it won’t always be that way!

By Chris

November 2, 2005 01:34 PM | Link to this

Wow candide, I’ve heard of people hating Bush, but wow. The problem with you people continually(did I mention I can’t spell?) bashing him, he isn’t running in 08. He’s done. There isnt a thing you can do about. You should be turning your attention to what you can do, find a good enough cand. with a D next to his name, or hers. I’m not saying there won’t be a dem. president in 08, but I honestly don’t see a good canidate arising, In either party. This next election is going to be interesting

By Chris

November 2, 2005 01:38 PM | Link to this

oh and what do the dems want? a national health care system? Where’s the money for that. It will always be like this, has for a long time. Who cares if I’m only 25? Does that mean you know more than I do? Does that mean my opinion is only good to those younger to me? Does that mean I have to bow down and say, oh your right kim, I’m only 25? I was just making the point that again, this borrow and spend tactic that our nation and many other nations use was around beofre W.

By Ricky

November 2, 2005 01:40 PM | Link to this

Chris, candide is one of the leading Bush haters on these blogs. Rarely does he present facts or evidence, just bad mouth’s his president and name calls. You can usually ignore his posts. Kimberly, you are right about the borrowing of money. It is bad. I wish more Republicans would stand up and demand fiscal responsibility. To me as a conservative, that is one of my bedrock beliefs, I hate that my party has gotten so far away from it.

By John Q

November 2, 2005 01:44 PM | Link to this

Ava, I don’t profess to understand the bond between a mother and her child but I’m all too familiar with a father’s love. So as a parent, I can tell you that grief for one’s child should be personal not grounds for a political forum. I’m quite certain that I’m considerably older than both you and Chris and probably have children your age or older. While it’s true that some profess to support the troops and oppose the war, some of us don’t see this as separable. War is not a duplicitous event inasmuch as you cannot profess support for those who wage war and oppose the war. War and the warrior are inextricably linked. I’m pretty sure that you are too young to remember the protests of the 1960’s and 1970’s and how our troops were treated well into the 1980’s. Then our troops were faced with protestors who called them murderers, baby killers and spit on their uniforms while calling President’s Kennedy, Johnson and Nixon warmongers and criminals. Jane Fonda now claims she always supported the troops and opposed the war but that’s not the tune she was singing some almost 40 years ago. This is how some of us see the protests and protestors and equate being anti-war to anti-military regardles of how you package it up for television.

By kimberly

November 2, 2005 01:50 PM | Link to this

Chris, not dissing you for being young. Chill. But if you’re healthy, being young is less expensive than being old. Little debts add up BIG over time. Homes, insurance, families, months of unemployment can put you years behind financially. Take care of your teeth! If you need a root canal at 40 and have no dental insurance, you’re gonna be in pain AND in a hole. If the economy tanks, yes, even YOU can wind up living hand to mouth with no prospects, no money, and guess what: the GOVERNMENT won’t have the money to help you through it. If you have a sick kid, guess what? You no longer have the protection of bankruptcy. You and your spouse will be ruined for life. Know what splits couples up? That’s right, Hon. $$$$, or the lack of it. You’re a bright kid; don’t be so quick to tune out people who’ve been around.

By Ricky

November 2, 2005 01:58 PM | Link to this

You sound very pessimistic. Heatlh insurance is a great thing

By Colonel Kurtz

November 2, 2005 01:58 PM | Link to this

Chris that woman in the bar was certainly misguided. She associated the war with those who fight it instead of those who started it. Soldiers do their duty and that is an honorable thing. Soldiers don’t get to choose the wars that they fight. That is why it is so important that the American people elect those that can be trusted with the lives of our servicemen and women. I have thought about this war for hours upon hours and I just can’t find much that can be associated with the war on terror. This war is geopolitical. It is about boots on the ground in the Middle Eastern oil region. A war against terror is a shadow war, best fought and won in the shadows. The international terrorist network is certainly not going to assemble in Iraq and fight the U.S. Military in set piece battles that they cannot possibly win. They are willing to run an insurgency in Iraq that ties up huge amounts of our resources, sheds the blood of our troops, and creates political upheaval in this country. Not to mention that Iraq is a wonderful training ground for their technicians. Giving them this stage actually helps them accomplish one of their goals. Anyone with any understanding of what terrorism is all about knows full well that we are not going to defeat terrorism through this war in Iraq. Iraq is about something else. But only those who started it know fully what the real agenda is. And I for one hope that when all the rocks have been turned over that the American people will finally get an answer.

By Colonel Kurtz

November 2, 2005 02:01 PM | Link to this

One more thing. Wars are not fought for idealistic reasons. If so we would be fighting in Sierra Leone or Rwanda. Wars are fought for geopolitical and economic considerations.

By Dusty

November 2, 2005 02:03 PM | Link to this

John Q

Well said. I am certainly in agreement with your views. Grief for a lost child should not be turned into a political tool. When it turns into a publicity tool for self-promotion is even worse. All credibility is lost.

Also, I can barely tolerate the frequent opinion by liberals saying “I support the troops but oppose the war.” As you said, they are inseparable. It is good to hear a sensible and honest voice saying what so many of us believe, that such a statement is anti-war and anti-military. Thank you.

By Chris

November 2, 2005 02:05 PM | Link to this

Maybe so Colonel, but please visit Mass Graves I just don’t think it is about oil, why do you think the insurgents are reacting the way they are? Because of our presence? No, because a free Iraq would be devistating to them.

By RW-(the original)

November 2, 2005 02:06 PM | Link to this

This is what you might have to do in hard times since the evil Bush government won’t be quick enough passing out the free footballs.

By Chris

November 2, 2005 02:12 PM | Link to this

GOP isn’t so bad! Hope that link works!

By Colonel Kurtz

November 2, 2005 02:15 PM | Link to this

John Q. I was one of those guys that experienced the trials and tribulations of the 70s and 80s military. As a professional career officer I understand that those things went with the territory. I took an oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States and that includes the right of each and every citizen to speak freely and hold their own opinions. And yes…it is possible to support the warrior but not the war. Wars are started by politicians, not the warriors. And if we ever get to the point where our citizenry doesn’t question the actions of these politicians, we will have lost the greatest check and balance there is against the abuse of power and authority.

By Chris

November 2, 2005 02:18 PM | Link to this

Colonel, are you saying that we can exist without war? That they are for political gain ONLY? I will admit, politics comes into play, but that doesn’t make them wrong. What about when Iraq invaded Kuwait? Yes politics, but would you rather sit by and watch?

By Chris

November 2, 2005 02:28 PM | Link to this

Let’s see if I can get everyone to shift gears here: Kimberly and ava, where do you stand on gun control?

By Ricky

November 2, 2005 02:41 PM | Link to this

Chris, I guess nobody wants to talk about gun control. Heres my take. If you are a regular citizen with no violent criminal history you should be able to purchase a gun. However if you have a criminal past in which you used a gun in commission of a crime, you should not be able to purchase a gun ever again.

By Colonel Kurtz

November 2, 2005 02:46 PM | Link to this

You have a good point Chris. Yes, a free Iraq would be a blow to them. And we have certainly gotten into a “catch 22” in Iraq. Will the Iraqis be free only while we are there to keep them free? Because we will most certainly leave one day. In 15 years we could not make the Vietnamese self sustainable. When we left all hell broke loose for those we left at the mercy of the North Vietnamese. We are not only in the position of having to create a self sustainable military and government in Iraq, but of overcoming thousands of years of history, culture, and ethnic differences as well. What happens when we leave? Will it be worse than had Saddam just been left alone. Who knows? That is why the wars we fight should be chosen wisely. If Iraq does not remain free after we leave…if it turns into a vindictive killing field like Bosnia and Serbia…what will have been gained? The aftermath is always the problem and it appears that not much thought was put into finishing this one.

By Midori

November 2, 2005 02:53 PM | Link to this

one question for Chris — do you and Bush have this Mr. Burns/Smithers type thing going?

Why don’t you two get a room?

By Dennis

November 2, 2005 02:55 PM | Link to this

Heres the thing… IF YOU DONT LIKE MIKE, DONT LOOK AT MIKE.

By Colonel Kurtz

November 2, 2005 02:55 PM | Link to this

Unfortunately politics and war are joined at the hip. Mao Tze Dong accurately stated that “political power comes from the barrel of a gun.” Remember Chris…the first Gulf War was because Saddam seized the Kuwaiti oil fields. We did not attack him when he gassed 300,000 Kurds. War is ALL about geopolitics. Unfortunately.

By Ava

November 2, 2005 02:56 PM | Link to this

John Q— I do, in fact, remember the protests of the 60’s & 70’s (“Hey! Hey! LBJ— how many kids did you kill today?”). If you saw one of my earlier posts to Chris, I akcnowledged that some protesters did awful things back in the Vietnam era. But even those people were the minority, and they did those things out of ignorance— most protesters directed their ire toward the government, where it belonged. I’ve read no reports of our troops being spat upon or cursed these days; I think most of us have become far more informed and civil for that. And I absolutely disagree with your assertion that one cannot separate the war from the warrior. That may have been valid back in ancient times when the world was ruled by a series of small fiefdoms, but it isn’t today, nor has it been in modern history. You may not be able to separate the two, but others can, and do. As for making one’s personal grief public, some people channel their grief into many forums, even political ones. If they do this to try to find a purpose and an outlet for their grief, ho are we to say them nay? Who is anyone to cast judgment on a parent who wants, and deserves, the answers that just may help her achieve some measure of closure, if not comfort? You, like everyone else here, speak from your feelings and personal experiences, and if you disagree with others’ opinions, that’s your right. But you can’t just state that people should grieve in a certain way, or they’re not sincere— that’s both presumptuous and incorrect.

By Dusty

November 2, 2005 03:01 PM | Link to this

Col. Kurtz, I am glad that you are no longer leading our troops. You know the rules but you have lost the spirit. Sure, opinions of dissent are part of American freedom. But when so much of dissent is not honest opinion or truthful facts, are you not supposed to object to it? When the president is accused of lying when all evidence is to the contrary, should you say OK! When convictions are announced by people when the trials have not been held, should we say FINE! When Iraq had invaded other countries, ignored the UN for ten years, gassed a Kurd village, tortured and mass buried its citizens, should we not disagree with those who say the whole war is for OIL? I am sorry but I cannot sit around saying I like EVERYTHING that dissenters are saying. And yes, I am politically incorrect. I think some of these voices are against our government, our country and our military

By Colonel Kurtz

November 2, 2005 03:09 PM | Link to this

Dusty…I too am glad that I am no longer leading troops. After RVN,El Salvador, Grenada, and Panama, I am a little tired. And I would not relish writing the letters to all the moms thats kids just got pasted by the latest and greatest IED.

By the way Dusty. What do you know first hand about war? You sound like one of those chairborn ranger types. Or in your case is it chicken hawk?

By MrSmileyFace

November 2, 2005 03:09 PM | Link to this

Yea Col, why can’t you just be like Dusty and be OPTIMISTIC?

In fact she said just yesterday thats all we need, OPTIMISM. Thats how we’ll the war gosh darnit!

Now put on a happy face.

By Chris

November 2, 2005 03:10 PM | Link to this

Col. I think you are right about the catch 22, there will always be wars, no matter who is in office, Bush, gore, hillary, or the Pink Panther, it doesn’t matter. To sit here and discuss it is what makes me glad to be in America!

By Chris

November 2, 2005 03:11 PM | Link to this

Don’t worry Col. even though we disagree, I still respect what you have done for us, thank you

By John Q.

November 2, 2005 03:15 PM | Link to this

Everyone has and is entitled to their opinion.

I fail to see how this digressed so far off Turkey unless of course I missed the news flash that we’ve decided to overrun their perimeter and open a clown burger.

By RW-(the original)

November 2, 2005 03:18 PM | Link to this

Colonel,

Why is it that noone is entitled to discuss war with you without posting their resume?

Didn’t you say you supported the free speech of all?

I didn’t see one thing amongst Dusty’s questions to you that had to do with battlefield tactics so whether Dusty was or wasn’t in a war zone is immaterial, so if you really believe in free discussion why not quit your vicious name calling and answer the questions?

Dusty sorry to jump in, but I’m a little sick of this holier than thou attitude.

By Colonel Kurtz

November 2, 2005 03:20 PM | Link to this

And I thank you to Chris. For your service and the discourse. America is a great country isn’t it?

By Chris

November 2, 2005 03:25 PM | Link to this

Honestly I can see where the Col. gets off doing that, not that I agree, but it’s like if you argued the law with a lawyer, of course they are going to feel superior about the topic

By RW-(the original)

November 2, 2005 03:31 PM | Link to this

Chris,

I disagree. As the Colonel himself says warriors don’t start wars politicians do.

That in no way means the political decision was always wrong. There are many things that have to be taken into consideration and a battlefield commander with tunnel vision is not the best judge of the overall decision.

By Ricky

November 2, 2005 03:33 PM | Link to this

But the battlefield commander on the ground that sees the results of the military action is the best to offer opinion on what transpired and what the results were

By RW-(the original)

November 2, 2005 03:36 PM | Link to this

Ricky,

That is absolutely true as it pertains to that battle, but none of the questions he attacked Dusty for had anything to do with that.

By Chris

November 2, 2005 03:36 PM | Link to this

Oh RW, I’m not trying to side with him or defend him, I just know how the military mindset is, you just don’t think people can relate

By Dave From Woodstock

November 2, 2005 03:36 PM | Link to this

Cindy Sheehan is exercising her constitutional rights when she protests George’s War. It appears that some people here think that’s wrong and in the same “thought process”, call themselves American.

So how long have you backward thinking Americans hated the USA?

If you don’t like the way this country works, move to Cuba, or China. There they’ll accept you with open arms.

Just don’t let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya.

By Ricky

November 2, 2005 03:40 PM | Link to this

Dave, Cindy Sheehan can say whatever she wants. That is her right as an American. What I think most people object to is they see her using deaths of american soldiers(hers included) as a political statement. Honestly, I like when she gets press, because she is so far out there it hurts the Dems. And there are reports that she is thinking about running against Hillary for her Senate seat. That would be great. Pirro really might win then

By Chris

November 2, 2005 03:42 PM | Link to this

God am I glad I live in Georgia!

By Colonel Kurtz

November 2, 2005 03:42 PM | Link to this

RW..my problem with Dusty is that he thinks that he has a patent on “honest opinion or truthful facts.” He has every right to support the President. My whole perspective comes from the fact that I am really really sensitive when it comes to the reasons that men and women go off to war and die. It is easy for those who view war from afar to forget that war is not antiseptic. It is the most horrifying experience that anyone can face. And yes RW…every now and then I might ask someone about experiences. There is nothing like a hot LZ and a bunch of body bags to get across the realities of war. I don’t care about the politics anymore. But I damn sure do care that any war that costs the lives of our troops is for the right reasons.

By Dusty

November 2, 2005 03:48 PM | Link to this

No, Colonel, I see that you are unhappy over MY dissent. You even got around to calling me a chickenhawk. Well, Colonel, almost every generation of my large family has served in the military, mostly during wartime. I did not fall into the proper time for enlistment. One of my four sons recently left the military after sixteen years of service. Perhaps you feel that only those who served should speak. Well, Colonel, I thank you for your service to our nation. But I will continue to give my honest opinion and my allegiance to this country, as they are also vital essentials of loyalty.

By kimberly

November 2, 2005 03:50 PM | Link to this

Dusty: You told Col. Kurtz he’s lost the spirit. What do YOU know about “spirit?” Dusty, why do you hate American soldiers who served with honor and integrity? Oh, I’m sorry, I forgot. You hate everybody.

By Chris

November 2, 2005 03:52 PM | Link to this

Kim, so glad to see you, I’m so glad I’m not everyone’s target anymore!

By RW-(the original)

November 2, 2005 03:52 PM | Link to this

Colonel,

When I read Dusty’s questions to you, I see no reason for your hostility or your refusal to answer.

I assume that your last comment suggests that you don’t believe the Iraq war is just or worthwhile. I read your earlier comments and you seem to allude to that without really saying it. Feel free to explain or ignore.

By kimberly

November 2, 2005 03:53 PM | Link to this

Ahhh, that’s it. Dusty, why do you hate your family too? Were you abused? Did you spend your childhood pulling out wedgies and sniffing your big brothers’ socks?

By E.G. Salomon

November 2, 2005 03:53 PM | Link to this

Chris - I was reading along until you commented that during a bar, this one lady ruined the mood by verbally attacking the army altogether.

I mean, you got all these people thanking and congratulating your job, yet you let this one lady get to you? I would understand if it were a mob or something like that, but one (probably crazy) woman!?

Yes, it does suck, but it doesn’t inmediately means that people in general are not supporting the army. Besides, if you know (by heart) that you’re doing the right thing, why let the negativity get to you?

This may sound wrong, but you might need to harden up a little more.

By Kanye

November 2, 2005 03:54 PM | Link to this

GEORGE BUSH DOESN’T CARE ABOUT TURKEYS

By ron kole

November 2, 2005 03:55 PM | Link to this

mike here is an idea a drawing of Roves head full of holes. caption “Leak!!What leak?”

By Chris

November 2, 2005 03:58 PM | Link to this

It’s not that, it’s just you think you are pleasing everyone, I was fighting so that woman can wear her cheap suit with her briefcase getting on her plane and not having to worry about if someone is going to take over that plane with a box cutter! And yes, this one woman got to me. I apologize if we are human too. I guess I’m the type that lets things like that get to me. Sorry!

By kimberly

November 2, 2005 04:01 PM | Link to this

Chris, EG makes a good point. Almost all of us support our soldiers, no matter what side of “the fence” we are on politically. We know you serve honorably and risk your lives for us, and that you have nothing to do with the decisions that put you into harm’s way. Please don’t think we don’t care about your sacrifices just because ol’ Dust-hag says so. We are angered at the reports of benefit cuts and extended tours and missions that have no plan to win and no exit strategy. We are angered FOR you, not AT you! May you live long and prosper!

By sf

November 2, 2005 04:01 PM | Link to this

So Kimberly, let me get this straight. You spent your life giving turkey’s wedges and sniffing your brother’s underwear? Have you spoken with anyone about your foul-fettish?

By kimberly

November 2, 2005 04:04 PM | Link to this

Hee hee… Sf, that discussion is for a different blog. {;->

By sct

November 2, 2005 04:05 PM | Link to this

Hey Chris, you were fighting because you were ordered to.

Arguing what it does for freedom is debatable

By Chris

November 2, 2005 04:06 PM | Link to this

I know that kim, i guess you had to be there, not Iraq, but at the bar. Alcohol was involved, I’m sure that added to it! I know that all these anti-war protests are not directed at me or the military, but it still isnt supportive. But anyways, lets get off the subject of me! So you like killing babies huh? (cheap shot, i know)

By Eric

November 2, 2005 04:12 PM | Link to this

Hey Einstein…I meant Andy. There are no unborn children. The unborn are called fetuses not children. I think your viagra is causing hardening of the brain.

By kimberly

November 2, 2005 04:12 PM | Link to this

Ah, sweet young man. No, killing babies isn’t nearly as much fun as watching hungry kids starve to death, die of a preventable disease, or the priceless look on a 15-year-old’s face when he’s sentenced to life in prison with no parole. Aborting an unwanted fetus takes all the FUN out of cutting government services to the poor so rich people can buy more Hummers. Is that what you wanted, Dear? BTW, I have recently considered purchasing a gun.. for the first time EVER.

By Chris

November 2, 2005 04:15 PM | Link to this

OMG! A gun? Did you say hummer?

By Chris

November 2, 2005 04:17 PM | Link to this

Kim, when you talk about the 15 year old-is there a case in particular? I’d like to hear your side of the story but would like to read about the case unless you are generalising…

By Ricky

November 2, 2005 04:17 PM | Link to this

Eric, at what point do you think life begans?

By sf

November 2, 2005 04:18 PM | Link to this

no Chris, she wrote hummer. Kimmy’s feeling the need to vent so she’s going to pistol whip Eric for just being stupid. Then she’s going to drive over that girl in the bar, Texas style, for offending you.

By Chris

November 2, 2005 04:18 PM | Link to this

Ok, do we need to have that birds and the bees talk in here?

By Chris

November 2, 2005 04:19 PM | Link to this

Oo-rah sf! Whats the sf stand for?

By kimberly

November 2, 2005 04:20 PM | Link to this

Haha! Yep. Moms with glocks. Be afraid. {;-> OH, and stay away from my daughter.

By Chris

November 2, 2005 04:21 PM | Link to this

Sorry kim, as much as you would LOVE for me to marry your daughter, I’m already hitched!

By sf

November 2, 2005 04:22 PM | Link to this

by the way “Texas style” is in reference to the spurned wife who mistakenly drove over her lying, cheating husband a few times. beware of a woman scorned…..

By Ricky

November 2, 2005 04:23 PM | Link to this

Kimberly, we have had many good discussions on here. Oviously we disagree on many topics. But do you really believe in the Dem talking points that Repbulicans neglect children? Look both sides blow the abortion thing about of proportion, but it is the extremists comments that kill me.

By MrSmileyFace

November 2, 2005 04:25 PM | Link to this

Did Oprah just end?

By E.G. Salomon

November 2, 2005 04:25 PM | Link to this

Chris - That’s the thing: It’s plain impossible to please everyone; to think otherwise would lead to grave dissappointments like the one you experienced. Like you stated before, having differences yet respecting each other’s sides is what makes the U.S. great. It’s because of extremists however that people get divisive, but that’s another thing.

Anyway…

By “hardening up” I didn’t mean to be uncaring, but rather to have a cool head. True, this lady is using her liberties you fough for by being an @$$, but hey! There are people that are grateful to what you granted them.

I’m not sure about the details in the army, but it sounds that you’re fighting for ideals and for loved ones using said ideals.

Sure, it sounds cheesy, but it’s more realistic than doing the G.I. Joe angle.

By Colonel Kurtz

November 2, 2005 04:27 PM | Link to this

RW…right now I don’t really know if this war is a just or necessary one. I think that we are going to find that out at some point in time. If,and I say IF it is discovered that intelligence was manipulated or fabricated to gain support for the initiation of this war, that the person or persons involved should be punished to the greatest extent possible. They are the worst kind of scoundrel. Using the lives of our troops to further some personal or political agenda is just plain wrong. IF, and I say IF again…that is the case, this person or persons as part of their sentence should have to write handwritten letters to each and every family that lost someone in this war apologizing for their actions. Our troops deserve leaders that possess enough entegrity not to send them out to die for a lie. IF that be the case.

By Chris

November 2, 2005 04:36 PM | Link to this

Col. I just don’t see that being the case, and IF as you put it, IF it is the case, it would be the most talked about piece of U.S. history. I think what happened yest. with the house gathering behind closed doors was just a way for the dems. to sway the media even more. I truely hope that I’m right

By Ava

November 2, 2005 04:39 PM | Link to this

Chris: didn’t mean to ignore your question on gun control (just didn’t see it). My position is that people who scream about the 2nd Amendment as grounds for anybody being able to own as many guns as they want should read the whole thing— very carefully. I’m guesing those who claim to be “strict constructionists” on, say, abortion or other associated rights of privacy aren’t gonna fall into that category here.

Personally, I’m not big on just anybody being allowed to own them, given the crazies out there blowing themselves and other innocents (usually their own family members) away whenever tempers get hot. I don’t think they ought to be banned, but I think the laws we have ought to be more heavily enforced, rather than enacting new ones.

Ultimately, I like my chances better against somebody armed with a knife or even a baseball bat— I can run pretty fast, but not faster than a bullet. (Give me credit for not saying “speeding bullet”.)

By kimberly

November 2, 2005 04:40 PM | Link to this

Ricky, I was being sarcastic, of course. I’m not a “talking point” kind of person. I read news from many different sources every day, and am skeptical of the BS being shoveled at us by the media. I think a woman should have the choice regarding her own body. Period. Whatever the other arguments are, and there are many on both sides, they don’t change the fact that it’s the WOMAN who has to deal with her decision, whatever that is. Everyone else on the planet can walk away. If it’s YOUR body, it’s YOUR choice, not mine.

By Chris

November 2, 2005 04:41 PM | Link to this

I like that Ava! I agree, I liked the waiting list to buy a gun, I agree that “certain” people shouldn’t be allowed to own one. But these people that want to hold hands and throw all the guns away…that’s just crazy!

By Chris

November 2, 2005 04:45 PM | Link to this

Kim, what about the waiting list of people who want to adopt? If you (not you personally) you don’t want your baby, there are people out there that will take it-Angelina Jolie for example. Now, if the life of the mother is at risk, or the baby in question will be born into disease such as AIDS, then abortion CAN BE a solution. I think that abortion is the most contriversial topic in the world today. I mean, there is nothing the founding fathers had to say because there was no technology, it can go around and around

By Chris

November 2, 2005 04:48 PM | Link to this

You know I was just on CNN.com and they have a link of letters of people with suggestions to President Bush. I will give $5000 to anyone who can find a conservative on there. Well nevermind, there is one. It makes me wonder about the polls too. You know, I’ve never been asked about how I think Bush is doing. Too much bias

By Eric

November 2, 2005 04:49 PM | Link to this

Apparently Totally Disgusted supports abortion for some people….totally disgusting. What I support is choice. It’s none of my business if someone needs an abortion and it’s none of yours either. If you don’t like abortion, don’t have one, you brain tumor.

By kimberly

November 2, 2005 04:50 PM | Link to this

Like I said, there are many arguments on both sides that run the gamut from religion, hell, crime, society, family, mental heath, etc. It all boils down to one thing: THE WOMAN lives with her decision for the rest of her life — whatever that decision is, SHE lives with it. It’s HER private hell, not yours. It’s HER body that is taken over. It’s HER guilt or lack thereof. Not yours. You’re right, you can argue all day about all the ramifications. Doesn’t change the one basic fact: HER life. HER choice.

By Colonel Kurtz

November 2, 2005 04:51 PM | Link to this

I know that I will get in some big trouble with this one, but here goes.Should the woman’s right to control her own body extend to the use of it for commercial purposes? I.E. prostitution…nude dancing? After all it is her body.

By Chris

November 2, 2005 04:54 PM | Link to this

Col. one thing-STDs, so no I don’t think so

By Dave From Woodstock

November 2, 2005 04:55 PM | Link to this

Dave, Cindy Sheehan can say whatever she wants. That is her right as an American. What I think most people object to is they see her using deaths of american soldiers(hers included) as a political statement. Honestly, I like when she gets press, because she is so far out there it hurts the Dems. And there are reports that she is thinking about running against Hillary for her Senate seat.

The entire mess in Iraq is politicized every day, as it should be. George Bush forced this war on us and he needs to pay the political price for it.

If you see Cindy Sheehan as some sort of symbol for the Dems, you’re dead wrong. She’s been personally affected by the lies of George Bush to a level neither you nor I will know. So she’s not a poster child of the left, she’s a poster child for anti-war activism.

Your wing-nut pundits like to look for anyone who may be perceived to be on the fringe and roast them over an open pit - it’s what they do.

However, this administration has proven over and over again that they are entirely incompetent in ways that are beyond measure. Wingnut pundits ignore this and point their boney little fingers at anyone who gets in their way. What a shame it’s come down to this; where a war of such great stupidity and tragedy is parlayed by the right as a way to exploit it’s victims so they can smokescreen the ignorant.

Also: Is Cindy really going to try and run against Hillary Clinton? Has she taken up residency in New York?

Where’d you get this from?

By Eric

November 2, 2005 04:56 PM | Link to this

I’ve never been asked to particpate in a poll either, but if I were, I’d blast Bush into never never land. He’s the lousiest excuse for a president I can imagine. I can’t think of a single thing he’s done right since he’s haunted the Oval Office. And not one of his supporters has ever given me a reasoned, thoughtful, valid excuse for their support. I think people tend to like people who make them feel superior. And that’s one thing Bush does well. Everyone I know is superior to him.

By Dusty

November 2, 2005 04:58 PM | Link to this

We have been at war for some time now and a few have not yet decided whether they want to support it. Well, I have always supported our armed forces and I have said that many times. They are over there fighting RIGHT NOW. And Kimberly, never mind shooting off your fireworks and usual off-center remarks. You miss the mark so often. Glad to see that Chris still has some OPTIMISM. That’s the SPIRIT.

By kimberly

November 2, 2005 05:00 PM | Link to this

Colonel, you’re not in trouble with me. {;->

By Eric

November 2, 2005 05:01 PM | Link to this

Support for a war is not the same thing as support for the troops. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to distinguish the difference.

By RW-(the original)

November 2, 2005 05:01 PM | Link to this

Colonel,

Your IF post answers alot of questions.

It appears that in spite of the IF caveat, all of your possibilities deal with the war being wrong and the possibility of fabricated intell.

The intell has been investigated by Congressional committies, military intelligence commitees etc. and probably will be for years. All that has been found is faulty intell and changes have been made to improve this.

In spite of the Joe Wilsons and Harry Reids of the world, there has been no credible evidence of our government deliberately falsifing a case for this war, either under President Bush or President Clinton.

Do you even consider the fact that the status quo was not an option? There was tremendous pressure to end sanctions and containment, leaving Sadaam to do as he pleased. The scandal people should be looking at is our “allies” that were taking bribes to sabatoge our case.

Do you even consider the possibility that we did the right thing?

By Colonel Kurtz

November 2, 2005 05:02 PM | Link to this

Chris, I really don’t think so either. STDs are a hazard to ones health. Of course there are some that would argue that abortion is certainly hazardous to the health of at least one party involved in that action.

By Ricky

November 2, 2005 05:08 PM | Link to this

Kimberly, I understand your arguement about a womans decision to have an abortion. You are right she does have to live with it. Here is the problem I have. The child doesn’t get a choice. The is a human being who is having their life taken away without a choice. That is my problem with it

By Eric

November 2, 2005 05:09 PM | Link to this

Sorry Ricky, I didn’t see your question until now. Life begins at birth.

By Ricky

November 2, 2005 05:11 PM | Link to this

So, Eric you don’t think the baby is alive before it is born? If it is not alive, how can it kick and move around and eat? You really can’t be serious.

By kimberly

November 2, 2005 05:12 PM | Link to this

How can one argue that our soldiers fight for “freedom” if our government is regulating what consenting adults do in private? Are we really FREE if we cannot choose how to exercise our sexuality, whom we marry, what to do with our own bodies, or even when to end our own lives?

By Colonel Kurtz

November 2, 2005 05:14 PM | Link to this

RW, actually I really hope that we did do the right thing.

By Andy

November 2, 2005 05:14 PM | Link to this

Hi Eric: If an unborn child is just a clump of dead cells, like the libs told you, than why do you have to drill a hole in it’s head and suck the brains out to kill it?

And if abortion is none of my business, then why does your sexual orientation have to be shoved down our throats?

It’s all about you isn’t it?

By RW-(the original)

November 2, 2005 05:15 PM | Link to this

Chris,

Maybe there is a little hope for CNN.

Aaron Brown canned

Eric,

Maybe you should volunteer as an “expert witness” if Scott Peterson ever gets a new trial. It seems that the uber-conservative state of California disagrees with you.

By Ricky

November 2, 2005 05:16 PM | Link to this

C’mon Kimberly, you know that the US is the most free society out there. Consenting adults can do whatever they want in private. Here is the problem with gay marriage, where does it end? If we recognize gay marriage, consider by most to be abnormal, can we tell people that want to be polygamists that they can’t be married?

By kimberly

November 2, 2005 05:17 PM | Link to this

Ricky, I respect your opinion, but I’ve given birth, and it’s not separate until it IS. And I am the one who lives with my decision, which BTW, I do not regret, in spite of less-than-ideal circumstances. That’s my point. Right or wrong, YOU don’t live with it. People who try to take the woman’s right away are telling her that SHE doesn’t matter. It’s still a part of HER. Her consequence. It’s not separate until it is.

By Dave From Woodstock

November 2, 2005 05:18 PM | Link to this

In spite of the Joe Wilsons and Harry Reids of the world, there has been no credible evidence of our government deliberately falsifing a case for this war, either under President Bush or President Clinton.

President Clinton? Gee, was he in office right along side Bush when Bush gave the order to invade Iraq?

Ever consider going to work at Faux-News?

By Neil Manimala

November 2, 2005 05:21 PM | Link to this

Oh my gosh how can you possibly debate in this thread? When most normal people are asked if they are for or against bird flu, most would say against—regardless of their political beliefs. Good cartoon though.

By Ricky

November 2, 2005 05:26 PM | Link to this

Kimberly, here is where I disagree with you. I understand that it is the womans choice. And yes I understand the the baby(fetus) cant really make a choice, but you are taking the “choice” away from that child.

By kimberly

November 2, 2005 05:27 PM | Link to this

Ricky, I disagree. There are plenty of things that are nobody’s doggone business that will get you arrested. And yes we can speak our minds if we want, but the government keeps lists. Don’t think they don’t. And if you work for a big corporate “news” organization, you’ll get fired for reporting the truth. If you can spin a bunch of lies and hate talk, though, you’ll be on TV every week! Ask Ann Coulter!

By Colonel Kurtz

November 2, 2005 05:27 PM | Link to this

Personally I believe that life begins at conception. And I don’t like abortion, but Kimberly is right when she says that the woman has to live with it. But one GIGANTIC contradiction that I see in the law as it applies to unborn children is that if someone other than the mother kills an unborn child, they are charged with murder. (fratricide) If you kill the mother and unborn child you get charged with 2 counts of murder. If the mother decides to kill the unborn child it is not murder. How can it be both ways?

By Matt

November 2, 2005 05:28 PM | Link to this

Dave, I know you like to bash Fox News, you do it all the time. Do you think CNN and MSNBC are balanced and fair? I personally think that you have to check multiple different sources. But i just want to see if you are objective

By RW-(the original)

November 2, 2005 05:30 PM | Link to this

Dave,

Not that you care but,

“Earlier today, I ordered America’s armed forces to strike military and security targets in Iraq. They are joined by British forces. Their mission is to attack Iraq’s nuclear, chemical and biological weapons programs and its military capacity to threaten its neighbors” Bill Clinton 12/16/98

By RW-(the original)

November 2, 2005 05:37 PM | Link to this

Colonel,

I’m glad we found some common ground.

For anyone else, more faulty or fraudulant Bush intee:

*”Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face.” Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998.

“He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983.” Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998

“[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq’s refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs.” Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others Oct. 9, 1998.

“Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process.” Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998.*

By Ricky

November 2, 2005 05:38 PM | Link to this

Kimberly, I agree, Ann Coulter is off her rocker. I can say that as a conservative. And no I don’t think the govt keeps lists, but again we can agree to disagree.

By Colonel Kurtz

November 2, 2005 05:40 PM | Link to this

Ricky…Kimberly is right. Part of the Patriot Act encourages neighbors to spy on their neighbors. This is not too unlike the neighborhood commissars in the old communist block or the system used in Cuba to stiffle political dissent. We are losing much of our privacy in this country and are under ever increasing surveillance. When our citizenry has to undergo ever increasing scrutiny and our freedom to move from point A to point B is overly restricted we are being treated as if we are all suspects. If anyone is losing the war on terrorism, it is we the people.

By Ricky

November 2, 2005 05:42 PM | Link to this

Colonel, c’mon man. It doesn’t encourage people to spy on their neighbors. It encourages every day citizens to keep their eyes open and look for odd things, like people flight training that dont care about landing. We are not similar to communist Russia or Cuba. I am all about having honest debate, but lets stay away from the hyperbole

By Andy

November 2, 2005 05:43 PM | Link to this

If there weren’t so many alternatives to abortion, then maybe it wouldn’t be murder.

By kimberly

November 2, 2005 05:44 PM | Link to this

RW, not that you care, but: “Victory means exit strategy, and it’s important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is.” —Governor George W. Bush (R-TX) 1999

By Dave From Woodstock

November 2, 2005 05:45 PM | Link to this

The intell has been investigated by Congressional committies, military intelligence commitees etc. and probably will be for years. All that has been found is faulty intell and changes have been made to improve this.

You’re stirring the wrong pot RW. Bush was given good intelligence that showed no proof that Iraq had anything to do with Al qaida, nor did they ever attempt to purchase uranium from Niger.

Bush chose to ignore the good intelligence, like he chose to ignore intelligence which suggested Al qaida was an imminent threat to commit terrorist acts on US soil.

So not only does your president ignore reports which could have thwarted 9-11, he ignored reports which told him Iraq was not attempting buy materials for WMD and he ignored reports that Iraq had WMD.

Then when the world hears that Bush lied to get his war - we’re supposed to blame Joe Wilson?

Yeah! Let’s blame Joe Wilson!

In fact lets expose his wife’s position as an undercover spy!

From A-Z not only has Bush f#cked those who would warn the US against terrorism, he has f#cked us all.

Now go stick another “W” on your bumper and smile.

By Ricky

November 2, 2005 05:47 PM | Link to this

Dave, so does Clinton get blamed for not listening to intelligence about Al-Qaeda?

By kimberly

November 2, 2005 05:49 PM | Link to this

“[The] President … is once again releasing American military might on a foreign country with an ill-defined objective and no exit strategy. He has yet to tell the Congress how much this operation will cost. And he has not informed our nation’s armed forces about how long they will be away from home. These strikes do not make for a sound foreign policy.” —Sen. Rick Santorum (R-PA)

“Bombing a sovereign nation for ill-defined reasons with vague objectives undermines the American stature in the world. The international respect and trust for America has diminished every time we casually let the bombs fly. We must stop giving the appearance that our foreign policy is formulated by the Unabomber.” —Tom DeLay Floor Statement on Resolution on Peacekeeping Operations in Kosovo, 3/11/99

By Ricky

November 2, 2005 05:51 PM | Link to this

Don’t want to answer my questions Dave?

By Dave From Woodstock

November 2, 2005 05:53 PM | Link to this

*Not that you care but,

“Earlier today, I ordered America’s armed forces to strike military and security targets in Iraq. They are joined by British forces. Their mission is to attack Iraq’s nuclear, chemical and biological weapons programs and its military capacity to threaten its neighbors� Bill Clinton 12/16/98*

And you also said:

falsifing a case for this war, either under President Bush or President Clinton.

Call me picky, but Clinton did not start “this” war.

It’s cute little mistakes like that that can turn a point into mis-information. Faux News plays that game daily.

For the record: CNN is no better as they attempt to out-smear Faux-News, in their Smear-Off. The only difference is CNN gives equal time to moderates and liberals, where Faux-News is Fair and Balanced my a$$.

By RW-(the original)

November 2, 2005 05:56 PM | Link to this

Dave,

Why aren’t you up there giving all this proof to the proper authorities?

You only have to take the tinfoil hat off long enough to get through security.

By Colonel Kurtz

November 2, 2005 05:56 PM | Link to this

Ricky maybe I did carry that one to extremes but I do long for the days when not being a criminal or terrorist I could go to the airport, buy my ticket with cash, and check in as Mr. Smith. I don’t believe in random road blocks either. We once had the right to go from point A to point B without hindrance as long as we obeyed the law. There are many examples of the freedoms that we once had that are now gone.

By Dave From Woodstock

November 2, 2005 05:59 PM | Link to this

Dave, so does Clinton get blamed for not listening to intelligence about Al-Qaeda?

You tell me.

How many Americans died in New York City, Washington D.C, and Shanksville, PA because Bush ignored intelligence?

You can blame Bill and Hillary for starting the US Civil War, but that doesn’t necessarily make it true does it?

Now how many died when Clinton ignored what?

By Ricky

November 2, 2005 06:00 PM | Link to this

Dave, here are just some of the liberals that appear consistently on Fox News…Juan Williams, Allan Colmes, Susan Estrich, Charlie Rangel, John Breaux, Howard Dean, etc etc

By RW-(the original)

November 2, 2005 06:00 PM | Link to this

Dave,

A case for war doesn’t begin the day the war starts.

Full quotes and context are a beautiful thing, the first sign of a liar is when someone truncates your quote to suit their purpose.

Or, put another way, exactly what I expect from you.

By Dave From Woodstock

November 2, 2005 06:01 PM | Link to this

Why aren’t you up there giving all this proof to the proper authorities?

RW: Why aren’t you responding to your “this war” bs?

By Colonel Kurtz

November 2, 2005 06:01 PM | Link to this

Oh Ricky. I know that you remember the Vegan incident at Honey Baked Ham. The Dekalb County Department of Homeland Security (Give me a break!) had 2 pork protestors under surveillance. If that is not government run amuck and a prime example of how when given the opportunity government will carry things to the extreme, well….

By Dave From Woodstock

November 2, 2005 06:04 PM | Link to this

Dave, here are just some of the liberals that appear consistently on Fox News…Juan Williams, Allan Colmes, Susan Estrich, Charlie Rangel, John Breaux, Howard Dean, etc etc

And that means what?

That Fox-Snooze is “Fair & Balanced”?

Are you trying to be funny?

By Ricky

November 2, 2005 06:04 PM | Link to this

Dave, Clinton ignored intelligence for eight years on Al Qaeda. Americans died in the first WTC bombings, the USS Cole bombing, Kobar Towers, and the embassay bombings. So his hands are not clean. Colonel Kurtz, granted going to the airport is a pain in the a*, but it is worth it to me if my plane doesn’t blow up in mid air. I have never seen a road block related to terrorism, have seen them for DUI’s though.

By Dave From Woodstock

November 2, 2005 06:08 PM | Link to this

*A case for war doesn’t begin the day the war starts.

Full quotes and context are a beautiful thing, the first sign of a liar is when someone truncates your quote to suit their purpose.

Or, put another way, exactly what I expect from you*

There you go again, trying to play Bill O’Reilly.

See my original question posed to you about your blaming Bill Clinton for the current war in Iraq. I quoted your entire post.

The problem is I had to do it twice before it registered between your ears I quoted just the part about “this war” so your fragile mind would understand.

By Ricky

November 2, 2005 06:11 PM | Link to this

Dave, you didn’t anwser about Clinton’s shortcomings and the Americans that died at the hands of terrorism during his tenure

By RW-(the original)

November 2, 2005 06:13 PM | Link to this

Dave

This war was begun using intell that had been gathered for many years.

You can’t be as thick as you seem, can you?

By Dave From Woodstock

November 2, 2005 06:18 PM | Link to this

…Americans died in the first WTC bombings…”

Check your history books. Bill Clinton was president for one month when that bombing took place. How much of a transition do you think occurred in one month?

Are you actually trying to say that if GWB ignored intelligence leading up to 9-11, Clinton must have ignored intelligence too?

Where is your proof?

I assume you have read the 9-11 Commision’s findings about what intel was ignored before 9-11. It showed that Bush was informed in July, 2001 that Osama bin Laden may attack the US imminently. So what did George do?

Why he went horseback riding on his ranch in Texas!

Listen guys, I gotta run. I know y’all are good Americans, I don’t doubt that at all, but we have our differences and we can fight another day.

Peace.

By Ricky

November 2, 2005 06:19 PM | Link to this

Dave, yes Clinton ignored intel. He was in office when osama declared war on iraq

By Ricky

November 2, 2005 06:21 PM | Link to this

Obviously I meant when osama declared war on the us, not iraq, my bad

By RW-(the original)

November 2, 2005 06:29 PM | Link to this

Dave,

Since you claim to be a history buff, maybe you can explain why Richard Clark said the Clinton administration was completely up to speed on intelligence on the very first day in office.

I guess you give Clinton a pass on the first Trade Center bombing because you don’t believe Clark anymore than I do.

There, we finish the day agreeing on something.

By Bottom Line

November 2, 2005 06:32 PM | Link to this

George W. Bush: Worst president in US history.

(By FAR)

By Daniel

November 2, 2005 07:10 PM | Link to this

We will pay dearly for a long, long time due to the incompetent leadership in this country. ” All hat, no cattle”. Photo-op, arrogant, overwieght, loud repetitive and wrong. America has had very able leaders. Eisenhower was one, Truman another. Abraham Lincoln said we can,”Rise to the better angels of our nature.” After all, there is a lot of sadness. Things, I fear, will get a lot worse.

By georgiaboy

November 3, 2005 08:08 AM | Link to this

Getting back to the stupid “bird flu” cartoon for a moment: As a public health professional, I thought the cartoon was bad because it reinforces many of the misconceptions about avian influenza. And I had a difficult time telling whether the “bird” is supposed to be a turkey or a chicken (in which case the cartoon becomes even more stupid. I am amazed at how a simple cartoon, albeit a bad one, can e sucha lightning rod for political discourse that has absolutely nothing to do with the cartoon. Amazing.

By Dave From Woodstock

November 3, 2005 01:21 PM | Link to this

*Obviously I meant when osama declared war on the us, not iraq, my bad

So what if 9-11 never happened. What would this “declaration” mean?

By Dave From Woodstock

November 3, 2005 01:23 PM | Link to this

I am amazed at how a simple cartoon, albeit a bad one, can e sucha lightning rod for political discourse that has absolutely nothing to do with the cartoon. Amazing.

RW started it.

By Dave From Woodstock

November 3, 2005 01:25 PM | Link to this

Note the Pilgrim - that would be a turkey.

By ernie

November 3, 2005 03:55 PM | Link to this

I read all this B/S and the only thing that really bothers me is that we have a congress and a senate that have shown no leadership what so ever. Both sides question nothing. It is about party politics and nothin else. There is country to run and its citizens deserve better than they are getting. The est advise I ever heard came from Ann Landers. Mind your own bussines Peace Brothers and Sisters

By J.R. Sanford

November 12, 2005 12:41 PM | Link to this

What comes around goes around