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DEL.ICIO.USA letter on the gun bill, a worry about parents with more than bats in their hands, and thoughts on an override
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Not surprisingly, some of the most fiery debate over H.B. 89, which would permit permit-holders to carry concealed on public transportation, in parks, and in restaurants that serve alcohol, is being conducted behind-the-scenes, among lawyers.
This is a letter from the Georgia Restaurant Association to Gov. Sonny Perdue, laying out a business and legal case for vetoing the measure.
The restaurant group said the bill would frighten both employees and patrons — affecting owners’ ability to hire help, and undermining public confidence at a time when, due to the economic downturn, fewer and fewer people choose to eat out.
There is the private property issue, of course. But the big question is one of liability. Says the letter, written by the GRA’s attorney:
“For example, how would a business operator or manager enforce the provision in H.B. 89 that prohibits any patron who is carrying a weapon from ordering and consuming an alcoholic beverage?
“Will servers need to question whether a patron is carrying a gun and request to see [his] gun permit in the same fashion that they card customers to avoid underage drinking?
“How can a server determine if a gun permit is valid or counterfeit? How should a server be expected to handle an ensuing confrontation that arises when an unruly customer takes exception to being questioned about carrying a gun onto the premises?
“Or is this simply to be enforced through ‘the honor system’? You can be assured that enterprising plaintiff’s attorneys will sue restaurant owners and their employees for the aftermath of tragic gunplay resulting from the fatal mix of alcohol and guns.”
One group opposing H.B. 89, not mentioned in today’s story, is the Georgia Recreation and Park Association. The group is worried about the provision that would permit concealed weapons in state parks.
Jimmy Gisi, executive director, is picturing heated arguments at kids’ sporting events. He wrote this morning:
Youth sports is very passionate in our state and unfortunately, I have witnessed many parents getting way out of control. It is much easier to corral an angry parent or to disarm him/her of a bat or stick than a firearm with multiple shots. We are definitely putting our children at a considerable risk if this law is signed into effect.”
In his letter to Perdue, Gisi was even stronger, saying his group watched “with horror” the passage of the bill in the Legislature this spring.
But one big argument in favor of Perdue signing the gun bill is political.
For two years, the issue has tied the Legislature — particularly the Senate — into knots by pitting gun rights advocates against the business community.
A veto would guarantee a third round. We’ve covered this issue, and we’d rather not cover it again,” said state Sen. Chip Rogers (R-Woodstock), who supports H.B. 89.
Several lawmakers — Rogers not among them — have pointed out that H.B. 89 passed the Senate with a veto-proof majority. The margin was a little less in the House, but that particular chamber has not shied away from confrontations with the governor.
No doubt someone has pointed all this out to Perdue.
Comments
By Mike K.
April 25, 2008 10:53 AM | Link to this
Can’t a restaurant owner post a sign that says you can’t enter with a gun? Doesn’t private property ownership trump the ability to carry a gun on said private property?
By ATL
April 25, 2008 10:57 AM | Link to this
VETO! VETO! VETO!
If only it were as easy as divorcing your wife in a Muslim country.
By JH
April 25, 2008 11:03 AM | Link to this
Yes, posting a sign would make it unlawful I believe, but the restaurant owners don’t want to be the ones to tell you that you can’t defend yourself. They would lose some gun-friendly patrons (though they may gain some gun-unfriendly patrons). Anyway, they want the gov’t to tell the people not to defend themselves. that way they can wash their hands.
By CVS
April 25, 2008 11:07 AM | Link to this
The right to protect yourself trumps the property rights of a business.
By Larry
April 25, 2008 11:08 AM | Link to this
Everything the GRA is trying to prove with this ridiculous letter, except the part about alcohol is made moot by the fact people are legally carrying in restaurants today. The alcohol part has bot proven to be a problem in any of the 30+ states which have passed bills similiar to HB 89. The state park provision of HB 89 has nothing to do with children’s athletic events. Surely the GRA and Mr. Gisi know this and are trying to present an emotional smoke screen to the Governor and if they don’t know it, perhaps they should study the bill and the facts.
I hope and believe Governor Perdue is smart enough to see past those who would use emotion and scare tactics to kill a good, well thought out bill. Most states allow everything allowed by HB 89 and there have never been any problems because of it - never. That’s the fact and the only “business case” the Governor needs to consider is the business case that allows law abiding citizens the tools to protect themselves for the criminals who carry where they want to regardless of any laws.
By Larry
April 25, 2008 11:09 AM | Link to this
Everything the GRA is trying to prove with this ridiculous letter, except the part about alcohol is made moot by the fact people are legally carrying in restaurants today. The alcohol part has bot proven to be a problem in any of the 30+ states which have passed bills similiar to HB 89. The state park provision of HB 89 has nothing to do with children’s athletic events. Surely the GRA and Mr. Gisi know this and are trying to present an emotional smoke screen to the Governor and if they don’t know it, perhaps they should study the bill and the facts.
I hope and believe Governor Perdue is smart enough to see past those who would use emotion and scare tactics to kill a good, well thought out bill. Most states allow everything allowed by HB 89 and there have never been any problems because of it - never. That’s the fact and the only “business case” the Governor needs to consider is the business case that allows law abiding citizens the tools to protect themselves for the criminals who carry where they want to regardless of any laws.
By Mark
April 25, 2008 12:10 PM | Link to this
As a proud member of the NRA, and a responsible gun owner with a concealed permit, I applaud this bill. I should be able to carry my pistol anywhere I go. Too many black thugs who carry illegal weapons are a real threat. This bill allows us to protect ourselves from such flotsam. As long as thugs carry weapons illegally, the public should be allowed to protect themselves.
By GA Resident
April 25, 2008 12:25 PM | Link to this
The GA Restaurant Assoc. is raising the eerie specter of doubt, without any empirical facts or numbers to back up its claims. Typical scare tactic and shameful at the same time.
Let’s talk about their argument: How many people will be too scared to eat out or seek work at a restaurant? 2? 200? 200,000? This is important stuff, guys: It matters, so be specific in your arguments. Also, to make law & policy based on the current state of the economy —a temporary and cyclic condition— is short-sighted. Crime is ever-present, the strength of the economy waxes & wanes. Thirdly - servers and bartenders are not law enforcement, nor should they think they have to be. I don’t see bartenders offering breath tests to patrons to see if they’re fit to drive home, why do they feel the need to accost those carrying sidearms to see if they are or are not drinking? Can you imagine the scenario: “I’d like a steak & a beer.” “Papers please, mein heir.” Um, that’s not gonna happen. Not here. If it’s a police problem, let the police handle it. If it’s a fear problem, get some education and overcome the unknown. How can a server determine if a gun permit is valid or counterfeit? How can they tell now? How can they tell that people are not drinking underage? Do they even care? How should a server be expected to handle an ensuing confrontation that arises when an unruly customer takes exception to being questioned about carrying a gun onto the premises? Um, call the police and report a disturbance by a trespasser? Or, better yet, call the police and report a man with a gun. That always seems to get a rise out of them. Why make up all these scenarios? Are these realistic problems anywhere in the other 30 states that allow carry in restaurants? No? So why are they suddenly going to crop up all over our state? Are Georgians that inferior to other states’ citizens? Fear mongering, that’s why. The sky is falling, the sky is falling!!! You can be assured that enterprising plaintiff’s attorneys will sue restaurant owners and their employees for the aftermath of tragic gunplay resulting from the fatal mix of alcohol and guns Why do you say this? Is this happening today? No? So why do you feel it’s going to be epidemic after July 1? Again, fear mongering. Finally, Jimmy Gisi is ignorant and needs to take a class. (1) Guns are already legal for carry in public parks & recreational spaces. They’re there today, Jimmy! The state constitution preempts localities from regulating the places or manner in which firearms may be carried. So that argument’s out. (2) Carrying a sidearm to- or while at- a sporting event is unlawful and a violation of the perilous and vague Georgia public gathering law already on the state books (16-11-127(b)). Look it up, Jimmy. Then realize your arguments in opposition to HB89 are hollow as a canoe. Then hush your mouth.
I have yet to hear or read a clear, concise, reputable objection to restoring the rights of peaceable citizens through the enaction of HB89. Every argument against the bill so far has been either emotional, ambiguous, vague, or hyperbole. Our stock in trade is facts, people, not fear.
Let those who pass the background checks and are of good moral character have their rights back!
By Stop-deWar-Feed-dePoor
April 25, 2008 12:56 PM | Link to this
Who cares about guns, let’s feed the poor and get out of Iraq. Aren’t you gun-toting redneck born-again Christians certain your going to meet your maker anyway. The answer is always more violence with your crowd. Who cares if you get shot by a thug or shot yourself in the foot. Don’t you want to meet Jesus. I say good riddance and have fun in your heaven full of judgmental hypocrites. Eliminate guns from society, try reading a newspaper from a country with strict gun laws. No shooting, just some fist fights. God Bless.
By gtech83
April 25, 2008 1:27 PM | Link to this
If a concern is how this law would be enforced, then the concern should be greater now. It is illegal for a person to carry a concealed weapon into a place that serves alcoholic beverages. That law could be broken now, how does the business enforce that law? It is simple a business can not enforce any law. They can do their best to abide by the laws, but they are not expected to enforce them.
By Mark
April 25, 2008 1:43 PM | Link to this
Stop-deWar-Feed-dePoor
Please leave your religious voodoo out of this blog. It only shows how gullible and ignorant you are.
By Jim
April 25, 2008 4:13 PM | Link to this
As certified redneck,gun-toting, born-again Christian, I prefer to send the “thug” to hell before he prematurely sends me to meet my maker. Gun control is a simple matter of making sure you hit where you are aiming! My aim is very good.
By Jim
April 25, 2008 4:13 PM | Link to this
As certified redneck,gun-toting, born-again Christian, I prefer to send the “thug” to hell before he prematurely sends me to meet my maker. Gun control is a simple matter of making sure you hit where you are aiming! My aim is very good.
By Craig
April 25, 2008 4:45 PM | Link to this
So Jim, that whole “turn the other cheek” thing just doesn’t work for you huh?
By elorei
April 25, 2008 5:41 PM | Link to this
Feed the poor? Good. Stop the war? Please. Lie in a pool of my own blood waiting 10-20 minutes for cops to show up while 3 illegally armed thugs rape my wife? I’ll pass.
By p
April 25, 2008 5:46 PM | Link to this
GFL holders CAN go into any restaurant that makes less than 50% of its money from alcohol, NOW. We can go into city parks NOW. where is the vigilantism and bloodshed you are predicting? THERE IS NONE, THERE WILL BE NONE.
The AJC has resorted to just plain distortion and lies at this point. There is NO logical reason to penalize LAW ABIDING citizens and make it easier for criminals to do their work.
I am ashamed in that posting FOR HB 89 that I probably make you advertizing revenue. We’ll watch as your subscriptions fall off even further.
By p
April 25, 2008 5:46 PM | Link to this
GFL holders CAN go into any restaurant that makes less than 50% of its money from alcohol, NOW. We can go into city parks NOW. where is the vigilantism and bloodshed you are predicting? THERE IS NONE, THERE WILL BE NONE.
The AJC has resorted to just plain distortion and lies at this point. There is NO logical reason to penalize LAW ABIDING citizens and make it easier for criminals to do their work.
I am ashamed in that posting FOR HB 89 that I probably make you advertizing revenue. We’ll watch as your subscriptions fall off even further.
By Rarl Kove
April 25, 2008 5:56 PM | Link to this
If you are a victim of gun violence it is your fault. You have something that some poor disadvantaged, under served or under supported, person needs or wants. If it were not for the capitalistic nature of our economy, then their would never be any violence. Stop the madness. Just pass a law and ban guns. It is that easy, or is it?
By Seth
April 25, 2008 6:02 PM | Link to this
The Georgia Restaurant Association does not seriously believe that there is merit to the “concerns” raised by Mr. Charles Hoff, their General Counsel. It is really more window dressing than substance. For brevity’s sake and because I don’t wish to waste my time explain all of the nonsense it contains, I will confine my comments to the portion of the letter mentioned above.
The argument that HB 89 creates some enforcement burden on the part of restaurateurs and their staff is a straw man. All of the questions they raise regarding identifying licensees and confronting unruly patrons are made moot by the fact that HB 89 does not make serving alcohol a criminal act. Let me rephrase this so it is perfectly clear. HB 89 makes it a crime for a licensee to consume alcohol in a restaurant; it assigns no criminal penalty to a restaurant, its management, or its employees for serving someone who is barred from consuming.
Enforcement of this law, as it is with any other, is the responsibility of local and/or state law enforcement agencies. Servers in restaurants ask for identification when serving alcohol to patrons, but this is because of various state and local statutes that place a burden on restaurant owners and their staff to do so. It would be a crime for them to sell to someone under 21; it is not a crime for them to sell to a firearms license holder that is carrying a weapon. As a matter of fact, Mr. Hoff misquotes HB 89 in that ordering an alcoholic beverage while carrying a firearm is not criminalized by the bill.
None of this is news to the Georgia Restaurant Association. They understand there is no real issue here. The Georgia Restaurant Association is simply looking for plausible deniability: they want the government ban upheld so that they are not put in the position of taking a stand on the issue.
The entire text of HB 89 is available from the General Assembly’s web site. I encourage anyone interested in truth rather than misleading propaganda to read it for themselves. http://www.legis.state.ga.us/legis/2007_08/pdf/hb89.pdf
By Len Kay
April 25, 2008 10:35 PM | Link to this
By Rarl Kove
April 25, 2008 5:56 PM | Link to this
If you are a victim of gun violence it is your fault. You have something that some poor disadvantaged, under served or under supported, person needs or wants. If it were not for the capitalistic nature of our economy, then their would never be any violence. Stop the madness. Just pass a law and ban guns. It is that easy, or is it?
Dude…you are showing your wealth envy. Grow up, get a real job and join us at the top and get a gun to protect it.
By Don't-B-Scared
April 26, 2008 10:49 AM | Link to this
All you gun-toters are chickens. Scared of your own shadows. If something went down you would pee in your pants, shoot yourself in the foot, and then tell all your bubba buddies how you is the man. Please, grow up. The southern evangelical crowd needs to off-themselves. Ya’ll voted for the dumbest born-again moron in the history of the good ole USA. You stupid redneck southern evangelicals should not be allowed to vote ever again. Get lost. Yes, you. You are the thugs. Now get in you pickemuptruck and drive to Gwinnett-cause it’s great. Lock the door on your double-wide, make love to your cousin, and stay the hell out of A-town.
By Don't-B-Scared
April 26, 2008 10:49 AM | Link to this
All you gun-toters are chickens. Scared of your own shadows. If something went down you would pee in your pants, shoot yourself in the foot, and then tell all your bubba buddies how you is the man. Please, grow up. The southern evangelical crowd needs to off-themselves. Ya’ll voted for the dumbest born-again moron in the history of the good ole USA. You stupid redneck southern evangelicals should not be allowed to vote ever again. Get lost. Yes, you. You are the thugs. Now get in you pickemuptruck and drive to Gwinnett-cause it’s great. Lock the door on your double-wide, make love to your cousin, and stay the hell out of A-town.
By Don't-B-Scared
April 26, 2008 10:49 AM | Link to this
All you gun-toters are chickens. Scared of your own shadows. If something went down you would pee in your pants, shoot yourself in the foot, and then tell all your bubba buddies how you is the man. Please, grow up. The southern evangelical crowd needs to off-themselves. Ya’ll voted for the dumbest born-again moron in the history of the good ole USA. You stupid redneck southern evangelicals should not be allowed to vote ever again. Get lost. Yes, you. You are the thugs. Now get in you pickemuptruck and drive to Gwinnett-cause it’s great. Lock the door on your double-wide, make love to your cousin, and stay the hell out of A-town.
By Rarl Kove
April 26, 2008 12:38 PM | Link to this
Did you have some sort of retard spasm when you posted, Dont-B? Or did you think that they did not post your screed and kept posting and posting and posting? If it was the retard thing and you are retarded, then sorry. If not, get over yourself you self loathing, America hating pinko commie lib. Get out of my country. Move to Canada, already.
By Rarl Kove
April 26, 2008 1:16 PM | Link to this
Hey Len, it was sarcasm. Geesh!!!
By Jimbo
April 28, 2008 12:56 PM | Link to this
Wasn’t a guy shot in a night club just a couple weeks ago?
I’m sure their revenue is less than 50% booze.. and I’m certain they have liberal laws allowing people to carry weapons into the establishment… and I’m positive the weapon in question was a legally purchased gun in the hands of a permit holder…
Did the cops ever get that guy?
These concerns that these people have are stupid. Laws only change the way law abiding people behave.
Also, the argument that more guns means more violence.. what the hell do you think cops are? Cops are “more guns” and as budgets for law enforcement and standards for hire are lowered those guns become less capable every year.
If people really wanted to lower crime and raise their level of safety in the presence of guns they’d stop focusing on the hardware and start paying attention to the software.
Why don’t we require training for permit holders in this state? Why don’t reduce the number of years a permit is good for? Why don’t we require a refresher on safe and legal use at renewal time?
I’d be up for all of those things as a permit holding gun owner.
People who carry legally aren’t carrying to be the big man. People who carry legally typically have had a bad experience or recognized a risk to their safety that they can’t mitigate through other measures. We carry because it’s the best last ditch response in the event that every other measure we take fails us and we just end up in the wrong place at the wrong time. We don’t settle arguments with the gun, we don’t even mention the gun when we have it because that makes us a target. We move through life in a quiet unobtrusive manner and we are usually polite and civil simply because we can’t afford to be the one who escalates a confrontation. The cops know who we are, they have our finger prints and we are way less likely to get away with it. So get over it. You keep up on this path and we’ll end up like Chicago or DC.
By Joe
April 30, 2008 10:20 AM | Link to this
The GRA lied or where intentionally deceptive in just about every paragraph of their letter. Fairly pathetic on behalf of the GRA and their lawyers at Taylor, Busch, Slipakoff & Duma, LLP. Not supporting HB89 is one thing, but to overtly and repeatedly lie in a letter that is sent to the Governor and the AJC is unacceptable!
A point by point counter letter can be found here. http://www.georgiacarry.org/cms/2008/04/29/gco-responds-to-restaurant-associations-call-for-hb-89-veto/