Political Insider

By Anonymous

August 6, 2007 4:05 PM | Link to this

The FairTaxers really do come across more as religious evangelists than political reformers. “Read the book! Anyone who disagrees or has questions must not’ve read the book, because everyone who read it is a True Believer!”

Which is silly, of course. The Boortz book has plenty of flaws, errors, distortions, and outright lies. It IS possible to read it and not wind up agreeing with Boortz’s favorite obsession, despite what the True Believers tell you.

By Bill Pearson

August 6, 2007 4:38 PM | Link to this

The olny way to correct the tax program is to get the billions of dolars the top 10% of the wealthy to be taxed along with everyone else. The Government is giving those people a break that they do not deserve. It amounts to billions of badly needed revenue not collected.

By Craig also

August 6, 2007 4:47 PM | Link to this

And you think that Boortz is a supporter so that he can pay MORE in taxes????

By Lewis

August 6, 2007 5:20 PM | Link to this

The super rich will be taxed on what they purchase and since they spend more, they will pay more. Why is this concept lost on you skeptics? You would get yoyur whole paycheck NO SS NO FICA

By Lisa B.

August 6, 2007 6:22 PM | Link to this

One problem with going to an “all sales tax” is that the amount of revenue coming in is not as stable as property tax and income tax. The state of Oregon got rid of property and income taxes several years ago. Running the state on revenue from increased sales taxes worked for awhile, but when the economy took a dip, so did funding. Schools closed early, (causing Prom and graduation to be cancelled), and participation is school sports was only available to children whose parents could pay for uniforms, additional salary for coaches, etc. For several years, Oregon’s school calendar was fewer than the standard 180 days. I don’t know if they’ve been able to return to the standard calendar length. I’ve no looked into the situation the last two years.

Another big problem with the “fair tax,” and one major reason it failed in Georgia a couple of years ago, is that farmers lose tax exemptions on machinery and equipment. (Have you ever priced a combine?) It’s going to be a hard sell in rural Georgia.

By Still Looking

August 6, 2007 6:58 PM | Link to this

There are two ways to devise tax revenues. First, you can look at the ways to minimize what your going to pay. Second, you can look at methods that provide predictable and equitable revenues that are sufficient to meet the needs of the people.

No doubt the current system is ridiculously complicated. Most people can’t file their itemized tax forms without a CPA. However the combincation of sales, income, corporate(Does anybody pay this?) and property taxes as well as user fees ensures a diversified tax base that is not subject to drastic variation. The GOP is always trying to establish these controls on revenues, but in the end they always vote for the spending measure. The so-called fair Tax is a scheme for the wealthy to avoid taxes. The real objection for most conservatives is they don’t believe in progressive taxation which is reflected in property and in theory the income tax (Warren Buffett says his secretary pays a higher percentage of her income then he does.) Boortz calls this income redistribution. I disagree: progressive taxes are a fair tax. We just need to clean up and simplify as best as possible.

By Julie

August 6, 2007 7:02 PM | Link to this

Lewis at 5:20 should check out some of the reviews on “The FairTax Book” on Amazon.com. The best review I’ve seen is the one dated July 5, 2007 that addresses several of the problems and misrepresentations in this book. For example, the reviewer hits on the claims that the FairTax will eliminate the IRS, is revenue-neutral, is transparent, will end the reign of lobbyists in Washington, will lead to lower prices, etcetera. This reviewer also demonstrates how the authors mislead their readers by comparing apples (“effective tax rates”) with oranges (“marginal tax rates”) when comparing the tax rates under the FairTax with rates under the income tax. These false comparisons are obviously intended to make readers believe that the FairTax would give them a tax cut when they might actually end up paying in more in federal taxes.

I initially supported this idea after reading the book, but I’ve learned more since, and unfortunately, it’s become clear to me that the FairTax (so-called) is a scam.

By John Gaither

August 6, 2007 7:54 PM | Link to this

Bottom line on the Fair Tax proposal is it involves drastic change. Something 70% of human beings are afraid of no matter what is involved. But change we must.

After reading the comments on this blog it is obvious that many of the contributors struggled in their college econ class. How many times does it have to be stated the fair tax proposal would be,should be, is meant to be revenue neutral, the concept is to effect behavior on use of capital and labor, which will result in a more efficient use of time, labor, and capital, which will drive growth in the economy. Will there be recessions in the future which will effect revenues, yes, will some people benefit and some people suffer because they are fiscally inept, yes.

This is not a magical key to solve all economic ills or to pay less taxes(in fact for those who love to consume you better be fighting like hell on this one), this is a way to fund our government where the US citizen has a lot more visibilty on making sure our elected officials are accountable. Where the increase in Federal taxes comes right out at the cash register rather than being hidden, so when the federal government wants to raise that tax from 23% to 30% because we can’t balance the budget the American public is much more aware of the need to be involved.

The current system and corruption it contributes to has to be changed or I believe our republic is doomed. Even Hamilton would agree with Jefferson on the Fair Tax proposal.

By saltiner

August 6, 2007 8:19 PM | Link to this

John Gaither needs to learn the difference between “effect” and “affect” if he intends to effectively argue any position, particularly one he understands as poorly as something in tax policy.

Rich people, Lewis, hire people to wait on them, they dont buy so much more stuff that it will increase the proportion of their incomes that they pay in taxes. Presumably under the Boortz/Linder scheme, they won’t even have to worry about withholding taxes from the salaries of the help.

Most of the loose income of the rich goes into what they call “investments,” although some might call this gambling, speculation anyway.

By cliff zeider

August 6, 2007 8:44 PM | Link to this

Hey, The fair tax is the only way to go, but it will never become law, the IRS won’t give up that power and neighter will the politicians.

By GaLiberal

August 6, 2007 9:08 PM | Link to this

If there is one truth I have learned in my 40+ years of working, there is no such thing as a “fair tax.” Anyone that claims their tax is “fair” is taxing one group to pay for the tax cut for another group. Ronnie Reagan and Georgie Bush are two prime examples where they promised to make taxes “fair.” With Reagan, my taxes when up (way up) and any cut by Bush was a mere pittance compared to the thousands his rich buddies received. There is only one reason Neal Boortz wrote a book about a so-called ‘fair tax’; to make him richer. He knows that people are suckers for anything having to do with taxes.

By buck

August 6, 2007 10:16 PM | Link to this

So what will sales tax be in GA if the Fair Tax and Glenn Tax both pass?

By Dewey715

August 7, 2007 2:39 AM | Link to this

To Lisa B. who posted a comment at 6:22,

The farmers would not pay any tax on their tractors or combines. Under the FairTax a farm is a business and none of the equipment or materials which go into producing the product are taxed. Also, since businesses are not taxed, the typical farmer would only deal with the FairTax on the items they purchase for the family. I take that back, they would also be required to collect the FairTax if they setup a roadside stand and sold directly to consumers.

By James

August 7, 2007 8:45 AM | Link to this

If you completely reject common sense and logic, our current tax system would seem worth keeping.

By David

August 7, 2007 8:46 AM | Link to this

We would all lose tax deductions and credits under the Fair Tax. BUT we would not pay federal income taxes. A deduction allows you to pay LESS income tax. If the feds collect NO income tax and you can not deduct a tractor, you still have more money under the Fair Tax than you do under the current system. Subsidies, unfortunately, are not going away, just deductions. As to this being a scam for the rich: So what if it is? You will bring home more money and pay out less. Do you not want this to happen because someone else will bring home more money than you? If you answer yes, then you a classist and a bigot. I say give everyone a chance to succeed. The Fair tax is one way to start.

By David

August 7, 2007 8:56 AM | Link to this

There is no fair tax out there. The “FairTax” is the closest thing to being fair there is. Most of the comments written here opposed to it, sound as if they are written based on wealth envy. “Punish the rich! They are evil! Tax them - not me! They can afford it!” Get over it. The country becomes a world tax haven for business. The economy grows. You get a prebate for the basic necessities up to the poverty level. You can invest with no penalties. What is not to like?

By Rod Burnette

August 7, 2007 8:59 AM | Link to this

FAIRTAX is the closest thing to fair there is. Our current system is so bad that any change would be welcome. The problem is that people don’t like change and politicians would lose a considerable amount of power.

People that claim Neal Boortz would become richer because of the FAIRTAX obviously have no understanding of reality and only hate Boortz because he irritates them. Do you also think John Linder is going to gain anything by giving up power? John Linder is the representative who wrote H.R. 25. by the way.

The vast majority of the people I have met who want the FAIRTAX are people exactly like me. We know we are going to pay our fair share of taxes. We don’t think we are going to come out ahead of the next guy. We are mostly concerned with our liberties and the overwhelming power the federal government has given themselves over the last several hundred years. The income tax system allows the government to invade our lives when they shouldn’t be there in the first place. Its amazing that so many people get nuts over the government putting cameras to watch street corners for crime, but couldn’t care less that they know exactly how much money we make, where we spend it, etc.

Not to mention the fact that the people who are not paying taxes under our current system (i.e, drug dealers, illegal aliens, etc) are now going to have to step up to the plate and pay their fair share.

The FAIRTAX is not perfect. It would certainly be an experiment and would probably undergo changes over time. But that doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t take a chance and give it a try.

By C-MA,

August 7, 2007 8:59 AM | Link to this

I find it interesting that some of the people writing hear find it so difficult to spell, but understand all of the complexities of our current tax code and the implications of utilizing a new revenue generating tax system. The current system is flawed. We need something new. What other options have been study or invested in in the Congress right now more than the “Fair Tax” plan? Not much. At least with this plan if politicains abuse their spending privelages or try to raise taxes we can use our voting power to stop them or remove them from office.

By David

August 7, 2007 9:06 AM | Link to this

Rod is right. Drug dealers, pimps, hookers, people who refuse to file and pay taxes, ILLEGAL ALIENS, tourists - they all are funding the government as well as the law abiding tax paying citizens (like me and you) any time a purchase is made.

By patcw

August 7, 2007 9:06 AM | Link to this

What GaLiberal doesn’t understand is that everyone, that is everyone - no matter how old or whether they are visiting, legal or citizens - will be paying the FairTax. People also have a choice of whether to buy new [and pay the tax] or “used” [and not pay the tax]. And there will be a “pre-bate” which depends on the size of the family each month that would cover the taxes on necessities.

Oh, and Boortz didn’t get any money out of the book. And he didn’t write the book alone. It was a co-authership with John Linder. If you read it, you would already know that.

By TxFairTaxFan

August 7, 2007 9:17 AM | Link to this

Point of fact, the poor don’t pay taxes. The top 50% of income earners pay over 90% of all federal income tax. The top 1% pays over 30% of all federal income tax. So someone please take those numbers and tell me how the rich aren’t paying “their fair share.” Also, Texas has no state income tax, and I personally don’t have a lot to complain about paying only sales tax.

By Does anyone remember econ in college

August 7, 2007 9:18 AM | Link to this

Does anyone remember the “Government shut down” in 1994? We shut down the government and allowed only “essential services” to run.

My question is, why was that a bad thing?

The purpose for taxes is to provide for those services necessary for the public good that would not be provided by private enterprise. Roads? A number of companies would love to have toll roads. Utilities? Private utilities are the answer.

When you get down to it, the economy would be much more robust if we got rid of those sectors of the government that serve no function, and impede the economy. Most social services are a complete waste of time, and the taxes that are taken to pay for them would be better spent by private enterprise, rather than a government agency with government employees that are not accountable for their own actions.

If we could strip the government of 90% of its budget and cut the “non-essential services” out of the budget completely (keeping, of course, space exploration and the military at full budget) we would be able to completely reduce our taxes, grow our economy, and make more people wealthy.

Our national goal should be to increase the number of wealth producers who give good jobs to valued employees. It should not be to tax those wealth producers into not WANTING to be taxed. They will simply make their money, and not create new jobs.

The real tax here isn’t taxes, but the threat of taxes to the producers of wealth. If we can use the fair tax to eliminate the speed bumps to wealth production, our wealth producers will not have the ten ton weight that they currently have on their shoulders, and they can vastly increase wealth in our country. When more people produce wealth, the economy is better.

Do you remember college economics? Either increase revenue, or decrease expenses. What would happen if you did both…at the same time?

And got rid of the IRS at the same time? How could life be any better?

By Jeffrey

August 7, 2007 9:18 AM | Link to this

Regarding the anonymous poster (first on my screen) who stated “It IS possible to read it and not wind up agreeing with Boortz’s favorite obsession, despite what the True Believers tell you.”

I agree with you on that.

However Giuliani didn’t say he didn’t agree. He said he didn’t understand. I can’t believe that. Rudy’s a smart guy. The book is simple. So it’s more likely he had someone give him an excerpt & based on that he was still confused. Not possible for him to have read Linder & Boortz’s book and still be.

I’m sticking with Hunter until Thompson or Giuliani embraces the FairTax.

By Edisto Joe

August 7, 2007 9:19 AM | Link to this

Another benefit of a sales tax vs income tax is that you retain your privacy. Since you pay the same tax as anyone else purchasing that new item for personal consumption, no one as to know who you are or how much you make.

In addition, if you were building widgets and selling them overseas, you could charge less than your foriegn competitors by the amount of corporate taxes that you USED to pay under the current tax scheme. Charging lower prices could get you a bigger market share. A bigger market share could expand your business. Expanding your business would increase your need to hire more employees.

Your foriegn competitors would see that you are in a “tax haven” and consider that factor with their next plant location decision. Locating their next factory in the US could reverse the current trend of our mfg jobs leaving to go overseas.

Before you start pointing fingers at how “the rich” might “unfairly” benefit by the change in the tax paradigm, consider that no one was ever given a job by a poor person.

By Scooter

August 7, 2007 9:21 AM | Link to this

The FairTax would expand the tax base exponentially. The FairTax would remove much of the prying eyes of the IRS andreturn some economic liberty to the American people. The FairTax would make our country the place to be for businesses involved in the production of goods. The FairTax would take immense amounts of power away from lobbyists making their livings perverting our highly complex tax code to benefit their clients/rich people. The FairTax would remove the imbedded taxes that currently cause each level of production to increase prices in order to pay their taxes. With imbedded taxes removed, the competitive forces of the “free” market will force competitors to lower prices if they want to maintain market share.

The FairTax only addresses federal taxes, so of course ones effective tax rate will be different. When the economy goes into a recession it is undoubted that government tax revenues will decrease under the FairTax, but; do we really think the unemployment rate doesn’t affect the revenues generated through the income tax? The simple fact is, anyone can criticize in order to preserve the F’d up status quo of the political class and their power consolidation in Washington DC. But, you have to question the motives of people who claim to be soooooo smart, but wouldn’t utilize their mental superiority to devise a plan to overcome the transition costs associated with returning an itty-bitty-bit of liberty over the management of our Social Security funds.

Take away the animosity created through wealth envy and what would people have to hang their political hats on? I say lets enact the FairTax and find out.

By Cory

August 7, 2007 9:24 AM | Link to this

I can see from a lot of the responses in these comments that alot of people haven’t actually read the book and are just feeding off of the opinions of OTHER internet comments.

By Dave

August 7, 2007 9:26 AM | Link to this

I find it interesting that as America continues to slink toward Marxist economics, 9 countries of the former Soviet Eastern block fully embrace capitalism. Estonia, Slovakia, Romainia, Latvia, Ukraine, Georgia, and Russia have gone a step further by instituting flat taxes ranging from 12-26%. They report tax revenues 20% over what was projected. Czech Republic, Poland, Croatia, Bulgaria and Hungry are currently studying flat tax.

By Brian

August 7, 2007 9:28 AM | Link to this

I love reading blogs in the morning. Thank you for the great laughs. I am amazed at some of these comments about the fair tax. I have been a supporter for years and would consider to know much more than the person making ignorant comments on this blog. I have had face time with congressman Linder and have heard the great things that are happening with HR25, S25. I understand the reluctance for change because the income tax is all we know. We have gone through our working lives looking at our paychecks noticing the taxes that come. Then we have to waste time gathering W2’s and tax software to try and beat the April 15, deadline and hope for a refund. But what you don’t understand is that the refund is your money that the Gov’t has taken from you and giving it back without interest. I personally would rather bring home 100% of my paycheck and pay all my taxes at the register. I would love to have the fair tax as a choice so I could choose to pay my taxes at the register, and those who want to continue to pay through income taxes, by all means knock yourselves out. I have more important things to do than deal with hiring tax accountants to do my taxes when half the time they don’t understand the new rules. I guarantee once the fair tax has been in place and the gov’t is getting more revenue through the fair tax more and more people would jump on board. Anything is better than our current system is the fair tax perfect?..No but it is a great start! Have a great day!

By Steve

August 7, 2007 9:30 AM | Link to this

A progressive tax is a fair tax? People who think this have no idea how the economy works. They think that if the rich have less money, that money will go directly into THEIR pockets. This couldn’t be further from the truth.

Or maybe they do know this but they are so infuriated that someone was successful while they weren’t that they don’t care.

By Rob

August 7, 2007 9:43 AM | Link to this

There are 2 MAJOR problems with the FairTax that have not been discussed.

And yes — I have read the FairTax book, and am usually a supporter of Neal Boortz. On this topic, however, he is trying to pull the wool over people’s eyes.

By Jerry

August 7, 2007 10:02 AM | Link to this

Let’s be honest. The only “fair tax” is one that results in “ME” paying less and “THEM” paying more. Because the rich control the politics, guess who will be paying less and who will be paying more in anny new tax scheme. The rest is pure semantics.

By dhoward

August 7, 2007 10:03 AM | Link to this

IF THEY DON’T BACK THE FAIRTAX,,,THEY WON’T GET MY VOTE!!!!!!!!

By physicsDawg

August 7, 2007 10:05 AM | Link to this

It doesn’t surprise me how little some people seem to know, after claiming to have read The Fair Tax. What surprises me is how they can make their objections to it and tout a progressive tax as “fair”, with a straight face, and NOT admit they are quoting from Karl Marx.

By Steve

August 7, 2007 10:09 AM | Link to this

Think of all the IRS employees that will be free to find productive meaningful work.

Administration for managing the Fair Tax will be no more complicated than credit card processing, and the government can farm that out.

Hey, I’m broke, my medical costs are through the roof, I live paycheck to paycheck - and I still think the Fair Tax is best way for me to get a foothold and start to get ahead. Less government, good, more government bad.

P.S. Washington, Eliminate Medicare/Medicaid while you’re at it.

By Clay

August 7, 2007 10:25 AM | Link to this

Lisa B, You mention sales tax being less stable than income tax which not true. If you read the book you would know that. The amount people spend is more stable than what people make. Just because Oregon can’t make it work doesn’t mean it won’t work.

I’m surprised there are this many comments without the typical “It’s a 30% sales tax, OMG!” remark by some nut that doesn’t get it. Maybe I just missed it…

By Drew Gonczi

August 7, 2007 10:38 AM | Link to this

I support the Fair Tax for one major reason: Freedom. The Freedom to do what I choose with the money I receive in return for giving my life to my employer. I requested an analysis of estimated tax laibility from the fairtax.org site and found that I’d pay about 2% MORE in taxes under the Fair Tax if I maintained the same types of investment and spending patterns, yet I still prefer the Fair Tax.

When I look as the present system … I come to the conclusion that Congress has divided us citizens against one another. We are divided by Income level, stock investors vs real estate investors, farmers vs employees vs business owners, home owners vs renters, old vs young, charitable vs non charitable (and degrees thereof), savers vs spenders, married vs single, with children vs without children, those that have read and understand the thousands of regulations vs those that hire someone who does vs those that don’t bother. With the electorate divided, it is trivial to form majority vs minority groupings to add other divisions or to expand the size of government.

The Fair Tax unites the electorate. We all pay the same rate, so to expand government we must all pay the same share of the bill (obviously according to how much we spend and not how much we make).

Maybe that’s a bit optimistic about the results of the Fair Tax, but I generally find any other argument leads to decipt by numbers. Neglect or alter estimates of embedded tax affects, Inclusive vs Exclusive …

As for Variability of the Tax Revenue Stream to the Federal Government .. I don’t see why that’s a problem. My personal income varies from year to year as do my personal expenditures … and I don’t have the luxury of “averages” that the government does. Bottom line, the government should spend some and save some for later. Already they don’t take in as much as they spend, so they borrow .. I guess I just don’t see this as anything to worry about.

For the record, I read the fairtax.org website. I read HR 25. and then I read the Fair Tax book.. I have not yet read all of the US Personal Income tax code, becuase not all of it applies to me. I pay a third party to do my taxes, and my wife and I waste about 80 hours every year tracking, filing, storing, and summarizing all the documents that may or may not have tax consequences. We also learned this year that we must not take digital photos of everthing we donate to charity (food, clothes, old toys, etc) to document the condition of each item … yeah there’s some overhead.

By Ben

August 7, 2007 10:38 AM | Link to this

Is it just me, or is there a common thread among all the detractors of the Fair Tax? That to them, the only tax they would consider “fair” is one that make THEM pay less and someone ELSE pay more.

Thank you for the enlightenment, I now know, “liberal” really means “selfish”

By Craig also

August 7, 2007 10:40 AM | Link to this

Here we go again - “if you would only read the book” This whole thing is like a religious cult.

Another problem that the sales tax would cause is massive fraud. Does anyone honestly believe that every seller of every product in the country is going to honestly belly up to the bar and report it? So you do away with the IRS, but you would have to put in place another agency with massive, intrusive powers to monitor every transaction to make sure that the government gets its share.

No thanks…

By Sander

August 7, 2007 10:43 AM | Link to this

Herman Cain reminded us a few weeks ago that “50 percent of the people[that’s you and I if we work-liberals, democrats, conservatives, republicans, libertarians, etc.] pay 90 percent of the taxes, beginning at $30,000 dollars.” This means half of us rich people earning a whopping $30,000 are working paying essentially ALL (-10%) the taxes. The other 50% of us are “takers” in our country which puts a huge burden on the wage earners. This is why our current INCOME BASED Tax system is SO unfair. Under the FairTax those “takers” will be paying their part under the FairTax plan which would make everything fair and equal. The only unfair part of the FairTax is that the politicians will loose their tax tweeking power and the lobbyist will have to get a real job!! Can you hear the violins playing?

By Cliff

August 7, 2007 10:47 AM | Link to this

While I agree in principle with the Fairtax, there are flaws numerically that need to be addressed. If you put the numbers in the proper prospective, you find that the Fairtax does not hurt the poor or the rich. It is the middle class that pays the majority of the taxes. It boils down to the concept of expendible income. Those in the lower income levels will be reimbursed for there expendible income taxes assuming that really have none. The rich do not spend all of their expendible income and have to opportunity to save therefore there portion or percentage of income goes tax free. However, many of the middle class spend every paycheck to keep up with a middle class lifestyle, much of which is at the retail level. So, while they receive the rebate also, as a percentage of income they pay more because they spend more than the poor, to a point that the rebate doesnt cover, and a larger percentage of their income than the rich. For some middle class making $70,000 a year, in a city with a family they could easily expend every dollar, recieve the poverty level rebate, and still pay a higher tax percentage rate than the poor or the wealthy (wealthy people making $200,000 a year and spending half of it). So, the poor are protected with the rebate, the rich do get to keep more of their money which is an insentive to do business, but its the middle class that ultimately pays the price. True, someone always has to pay the price. So, why not a flat tax where everyone pays their own share???

By InsectInside

August 7, 2007 10:53 AM | Link to this

To all you wealth haters: You don’t lack a yacht because another person has one.

By Sander

August 7, 2007 11:03 AM | Link to this

Cliff-What about all the tweeking of the politicians that still remains under the unfair flat tax. They already control us with this broken system and you think the current system is a good one? You don’t mention the ESTATE(Death) Tax, CORPORATE Taxes and all the others ones that continue to dictate our life styles. Under the FairTax, everyone sees the tax on their receipts for purchases of new good and services. Currently, we have no idea how much taxes are embedded in the price of any item. If I buy a new 50-inch plasma T.V. today, I am paying taxes on every person that touched that T.V. before I actually purchased it-FICA, payroll taxes. Under the FairTax no more hidden or embedded taxes and if I purchases a used item like a house or car, guess what, I will not have to pay taxes on that because under that FairTax you only pay tax on that item 1 time. I know that there are a hell of alot more benefits under the FairTax plan than the garbarge we have today.

By Scooter

August 7, 2007 11:06 AM | Link to this

There is plenty of tax evasion that takes place under the current system. Golly, why do businesses report their collected sales taxes to state and local governments now? Why don’t they just not collect those sales taxes and beat out their competitors with their lower prices?

Welfare State, really? By returning the taxes people will pay on the necessities of life, up to the poverty level, we will create a welfare state?

I love it, if you have an open mind and read the book you are like a cult member. But, if you rely on knee jerk reactions, while sheltering yourself from ideas that return liberty, you are a… How funny is that position!

I like to believe people are not that dense, so I have to question their motives.

By hnr

August 7, 2007 11:27 AM | Link to this

Boortz asked a few weeks ago for us to reverse the situation:

Imagine that the “fair tax” had been in place since before we were born. We bring home 100% of our pay and pay sales tax when we buy new items. It is the only system we had evere known.

Then, some politician comes up with the idea that the fed will sieze a portion of your paycheck and force you to keep all sorts of rediculous documents and follow a 16,000 page code and waste 80 hours filling out 1040 forms and file by a deadline to avoid penalties, merely to get a little of that siezed money back!

Wouldn’t you fight like hell to keep the “fair tax” in place?

Sub note: Politicians use current tax code to CONTROL their constituients. Fair tax would put CONTROL back in the hands of the voters. Any politician opposed to fair tax is not concerned about economics, they are concerned about losing their POWER.

Imagine that, without their power, all that would be left for them to do would be to represent their constituients… isn’t that what they’re supposed to do?

Thanks for reading. (please don’t jump my case about spelling)

By Carl

August 7, 2007 11:27 AM | Link to this

The rich would lose rightoffs under the Fair Tax and so pay more. And yes, Sales Tax Fraud is much less than Income Tax Fraud and many states already have the systems in place to collect it. The Fair Tax includes 1/2% to the states to collect.

By Peter

August 7, 2007 11:36 AM | Link to this

It’s funny that the same people who yell “tax the rich” are the same people who want to succeed and get ahead and become rich so they can pay more tax.

The only way a tax can be fair is if everyone pays proportionately the same amount. If I have to pay 23 percent, everyone else should too.

By MrLiberty

August 7, 2007 12:16 PM | Link to this

Leave it to the so-called conservatives to support such a horrific plan, while a true conservative like Ron Paul favors getting rid of the income tax and replacing it with NOTHING.

First, the Fair Tax is revenue neutral. Why would anyone want to keep the government at this level of spending? And keep in mind, the number 23 that they keep throwing around is the same percent they were throwing around a decade ago. Thanks to Bush and the worthless congess, the budget is now twice what it was back then. So what is the new percent? 46? 50? Are you prepared to pay an additional 50% on everything you buy just to keep supporting this leviathan?

Ron Paul is the only candidate I have seen that is saying cut government back to what is prescribed in the constitution. No more nanny state, no more mommy state, no more daddy state, no more police state.

You can SETTLE for the Fair tax if you want, but I expect more out of the candidates I support. That’s why I am supporting Ron Paul. If the Fair Tax passes, and government remains the same size, there will never be any incentive to cut it back.

Just what exactly is conservative about that??

By Steve S

August 7, 2007 12:36 PM | Link to this

I am personally for a plan that allows people the ability to save $ tax free. This systems seems to be able to allow people to have more control over their destiny. If they spend $ on beer and cigarettes, tax them… If they decide to save their money to get a better house for their family, don’t tax them.

I would like to start a business one day and provide jobs for people. I live well below my means so I can save my $ to start that business. Something like the fair tax would enable me to make great strides in this effort since I would be getting control of how I distribute my $. I may be saving now, but as my business gets going, and I start making more, I am sure I will be buying more luxury items (ie. more being taxed by fair tax). I can guarantee that I will be paying more into the system over my lifetime if I can have the ability to start my own company sooner. Plus, lets start forcing drug dealers and illegal immigrants into the tax system.

PS- The fair tax would actually create a surplus of $ so if our politicians manage it correctly, they should be able to keep a surplus in case of a year or 2 of economic decline where tax revenues drop. If I have to live that way and do it successfully, why can’t our government show more responsibility for the $ we give them.

By George Baker

August 7, 2007 12:36 PM | Link to this

If there to be no other Federal taxes on income then the only course open to politicians to get more money to spread around would be to do whatever it took to see that more people are employed and that people have more money in their pockets to spend. If you buy more expensive items (the rich) then you pay more. If something happens to cause people to have less income then the government gets less revenue (as it should). It is just that simple

By David B

August 7, 2007 12:40 PM | Link to this

Lisa B wrote that the State of Oregon is having difficulty pulling in revenue because of their sales tax. She needs to get her facts straight. Oregon is one of five states in the union without a sales tax. On top of that, they still collect property and income tax from their residents.

By michael murphy

August 7, 2007 1:06 PM | Link to this

After finally getting a real yes or no question, we now know who stands for change and who is just “jawjacking”. I’ve had enough of these empty suits. If there is no commitment to the Fair Tax then, no vote from me. Will a real change agent please stand up.

By Geoduck

August 7, 2007 1:06 PM | Link to this

If Bill Gates had a billion dollars in his checking account, it would not be taxed as it isn’t now. He only pays income tax on any income he makes as you and I. So any new tax on “The rich” would not ammount to much. They, the top 10%, pay more in taxes than 70% of us now. If he went out and bought half of Seattle, he would pay a ton of taxes. And no one pays attention to the prebate, EVERYONE including Gates would get a monthly check for about $400., to make up for the taxes on food, medicine and other basic needs, even if you don’t spend that much.
A family of four would get about $1600 every month. Getting my full pay check, no income tax forms and getting a check for $1200. every month, I could live with that.

By Julie B

August 7, 2007 1:15 PM | Link to this

I’ve read the book. I am offended that some ignorant people believe that the “Fair Taxers” are a cult. We are nothing more than an organized group of AMERICAN CITIZENS

By Doug McCue

August 7, 2007 1:25 PM | Link to this

Naysayers are so common because it takes little effort to “find fault” especially when you only make general accusations. So, if the FairTax (with it’s millions of dollars in research by the top economic minds of 11 US Universities) is a bad idea, then what is the alternative? The SO CALLED flat tax? It was tried before and failed. Let the income tax continue? The AMT itself is going to consume us all. No, go ahead and “find fault” with the FairTax so we can slide into an economic collapse when the answer is right there at our fingertips. Fortunately the FairTax grassroots effort is begining to take hold. I’m begining to see just how the Revolutionists felt when confronting the Torries some 200+ years ago.

By Julie B

August 7, 2007 1:28 PM | Link to this

I have read the book, and I am offended (but I’ll get over it) that some people believe that the “Fair Taxers” are a cult. We are nothing more than an organized group of AMERICAN CITIZENS who believe that the current tax system is very flawed and corrupt. Sure, there are flaws with the Fair Tax, but there are more flaws with the current system. Can anyone honestly say that they COMPLETELY understand the current tax code - all 60,000 pages, or so? I don’t think so. And what about all the illegals, drug pushers, hookers, etc.? They are not currently paying their “fair share”. Why aren’t more people screaming about them??? It seems to me that even though there are flaws in the Fair Tax, it would be 1000 times better than the system we currently have.

By James H

August 7, 2007 1:58 PM | Link to this

For those of you who think that the rich wouldn’t pay more in taxes than poorer people, are ignorant. When was the last time you spent $250 on a pair of jeans, or $150,000 on a Bentley? The celebrities out in Hollywood who are always complaing that we don’t pay enough in taxes would be taxed much more than a person like me who only spends $35 on a pair of jeans. Hell, Paris Hilton could fund the entire federal government in 2008.

By Michael Archangel

August 7, 2007 2:01 PM | Link to this

It was not hard to understand Guiliani’s purposefully and misleading condemnation of the FairTax. Guiliani is being strongly supported and guided by Steve Forbes, a strong advocate for the “flat tax”. The flat tax is DOA and doesn’t work anyway (We have seen the flat tax at work - Reagan’s Tax Cuts mid-80”s, basically a “flat tax”, that have been amended some 14,000 times). The FairTax will assist the repeal of the 16th amendment and GET RID OF THE PRESENT ABUSIVE, PUNITIVE, COUNTER-PRODUCTIVE FEDERAL INCOME TAX. Guiliani wonders if the IRS is gone (as we know it)who will administer the tax collecting program? Forty Five of the fifty states already have a State Revenue Department that collect taxes. “DUH”!? I guess they will collect the taxes from the point of sale businesses and then forward to the Treasury department; replacing the IRS. It is NOT necessary to read “the book”, Boortz/Linder, although it would help put certain areas of our abusive tax system in perspective. At least give yourself the opportunity to see the positive effects of the FairTax and get your head out of the sand and INVESTIGATE. If you don’t investigate, anything, then you can’t intelligently judge. Just “google” FairTax and you will be led to a variety of website explaining the fine points of the FairTax. The FairTax is a lot easier to understand than Herman Cain’s pointed message that the present Income tax code is a seven million word mess, but it is our mess, and what do we plan to do to about it? Huckabee, Hunter and Tancredo are visionary in their support of the FairTax.

By Colorado boy

August 7, 2007 2:18 PM | Link to this

If you go to the IRS website you can get the official numbers. I got the following numbers ten minutes ago directly off the website: http://www.irs.gov/taxstats/indtaxstats/article/0,,id=96981,00.html#_grp1

In 2004 (latest figures): Total individual tax returns filed: 132,226,042 Total not paying ANY tax: 43,124,107 (32.6%)!!!! Percentage with AGI of at least $100,000: 9.8%

Percentage of total income taxes paid by those with AGI of at least $100,000: 67.8%

Some who are posting here believe that the “rich” don’t pay their fair, or appropriate, share of taxes. Yet somehow, those with an AGI income of $100,000 or more (which make up less than 10% of taxpayers, and which many here would probably define as rich) somehow end up paying more than 67% of ALL the income taxes.

What would a “fair” share be? 75%? 80%? Most of those who pay NO taxes still benefit from and use the services of government, yet pay nothing.

When one factors in the taxes on WEALTH (land, real estate, stocks, bonds, and other ASSETS) such as property taxes (which is where the majority of school and local government revenues come from) and capital gains taxes as opposed to INCOME taxes, the disparity grows even wider since those with lower incomes generally don’t own assets that require those kinds of taxes. In other words, the “rich” pay FAR more of the costs of government (at every level) than their share would dictate.

Our politicians have power over us when they can favor or punish different groups with special taxes, deductions, credits, or exemptions as they do now. They can directly coerce our behavior into “approved” or “correct” areas with this power. Whether “fair” or not, the Fair Tax would certainly decrease government control over us, make politicians more accountable, and would create a better economic and investment environment. THAT would attract foreign investment and business back to the USA that has been leaving in droves over the past decade or so.

My AGI is less than $100,000 per year, but I’m for the Fair Tax.

By Colorado boy

August 7, 2007 2:18 PM | Link to this

If you go to the IRS website you can get the official numbers. I got the following numbers ten minutes ago directly off the website: http://www.irs.gov/taxstats/indtaxstats/article/0,,id=96981,00.html#_grp1

In 2004 (latest figures): Total individual tax returns filed: 132,226,042 Total not paying ANY tax: 43,124,107 (32.6%)!!!! Percentage with AGI of at least $100,000: 9.8%

Percentage of total income taxes paid by those with AGI of at least $100,000: 67.8%

Some who are posting here believe that the “rich” don’t pay their fair, or appropriate, share of taxes. Yet somehow, those with an AGI income of $100,000 or more (which make up less than 10% of taxpayers, and which many here would probably define as rich) somehow end up paying more than 67% of ALL the income taxes.

What would a “fair” share be? 75%? 80%? Most of those who pay NO taxes still benefit from and use the services of government, yet pay nothing.

When one factors in the taxes on WEALTH (land, real estate, stocks, bonds, and other ASSETS) such as property taxes (which is where the majority of school and local government revenues come from) and capital gains taxes as opposed to INCOME taxes, the disparity grows even wider since those with lower incomes generally don’t own assets that require those kinds of taxes. In other words, the “rich” pay FAR more of the costs of government (at every level) than their share would dictate.

Our politicians have power over us when they can favor or punish different groups with special taxes, deductions, credits, or exemptions as they do now. They can directly coerce our behavior into “approved” or “correct” areas with this power. Whether “fair” or not, the Fair Tax would certainly decrease government control over us, make politicians more accountable, and would create a better economic and investment environment. THAT would attract foreign investment and business back to the USA that has been leaving in droves over the past decade or so.

My AGI is less than $100,000 per year, but I’m for the Fair Tax.

By Owen carneal

August 7, 2007 2:24 PM | Link to this

If the USA does not institute the Fair Tax first, then Brazil and Ireland will become the first true global tax havens. Those two countries are currently studying the concept of HR25 / S25, and according to their respective Treasury Ministries, the early determinations look promising.

What the hell are we waiting for?

By Ben

August 7, 2007 2:39 PM | Link to this

I’m a big supporter of the FairTax. I do have one concern. A good portion of the charitable donations which are made today are made, sadly, in order to receive tax credits. What would happen to charitable donations if the FairTax became a reality?

By Luke

August 7, 2007 2:50 PM | Link to this

For all those who are critical of the FairTax, my question is, do you really like paying income taxes? The point, for all of you that don’t, or won’t, get it is that the FairTax is BETTER than totally screwed up system we have now. If we can’t all at least agree on that then we have our collective heads in the sand!!

By Clint

August 7, 2007 2:56 PM | Link to this

By Owen Carneal

August 7, 2007 2:59 PM | Link to this

In answer to Ben’s question, charitable donations would go up because those who donate will have more money in their pocket with which to donate.

It goes against conventional wisdom and popular thought, but the majority of donations are made from the heart; the tax consequences are only a secondary or tertiary consideration. Examples include donations for Katrina and the Indonesian tsunami.

By Ted P

August 7, 2007 3:07 PM | Link to this

I have never heard such a bunch of cry babies, those of you who think that the way we do taxes now are fair please speak up…. I don’t hear anything, so why not try something different we can always go back. Those of you that think the fair tax is not good let’s hear your ideas. I don’t hear anything… again.

By Bill

August 7, 2007 3:10 PM | Link to this

Responding to “Ben” 2:39 psot. I too am a FairTax support. Do not know where you are getting your information regarding charitable contributions, but information I have read says that the vast bulk of charitable contributions come from people who are not able to itemize their taxes due to low levels of income. In other words, charity is not generally based upon a need for a deduction, but upon a desire to give.

Sure there are “rich” folks who do get a deduction, but they are a small percentage of the “givers”.

If you look at it with real numbers, it is very rare that a charitable contribution allows you to end up with more money than if you had not made the contribution. Only when you get into very high and more complex situations will there be a benefit. The old adage about spending a dollar to save 25 cents is still true. It takes a very special situation to make that 25 cent savings worth more than the 75 cent out-of-pocket expense.

By Sid

August 7, 2007 3:22 PM | Link to this

So Anonymous says on August 6, 2007 4:05 PM…”The Boortz book has plenty of flaws, errors, distortions, and outright lies.” How about naming a couple with facts to back up your assertion? I do not believe the FairTax is perfect and I would like to know any flaws (if legitimate), but as far as my research, it is a great improvement over the vote buying, overreaching, socially intrusive mess of a tax code we have now.
Are you ‘nay-sayers’ happy with our current tax code mess? Do any of you have any constructive ideas about our taxes that could actually be studied and debated (other than ‘tax the rich’ communism speak)?

By SAM

August 7, 2007 3:39 PM | Link to this

All of you who are against the FairTax are idoits. You do not understand the signifigance of the tax. The most important point is that it takes away power from the government. They could make the sales tax 80% instead of the 23% the FairTax proposes and I would pay it to get MY power over MY money instead of being raped by the federal gov’t at gun point. You naysayers are people who need the govt to wipe their butts and educate their children. Can I come into your house and steal your money at gunpoint to waste on govt pork? Can I have your address? I will steal your home also because I am The IMPERIAL FEDERAL GOVERNMENT!!!

By Jim Tomasik

August 7, 2007 3:48 PM | Link to this

To Mr Pearson,

Your right,

We need to tax the rich folks as well. When the FairTax becomes the law of the land we will finally be able to do that. 70 plus years of the current tax code and folks are still trying to fix it. Throw it out. FairTax is not perfect but it beats wht we have by lightyears. When you said the stuff about the farmer made it clear what you knew on the subject. Perhaps you might look into it before commenting. That was pretty silly.

Lisa B.

We in Tennessee have never had an income tax at least as long as my old self can remember. Oregon must not be doing something right. The people came up in arms and charge the capitol building in 2001 when some folks tried to sneak it in on us.

To Still looking, You said, “We just need to clean up and simplify as best as possible.”

People who beleive that have had 70 years to clean it up. Your turn is over. Let someone else give Federal tax collection a shot. It REALLY could not be much worse.

To all of you naysayers,

You should really be harping on all the jobs that will be lost.

IRS employees H&R block employees Tax code Lobbyists Tax lawyers CPA’s

I’m told there are about a million leaches on our tax system that will have to go find productive jobs.

How many of you are one of those named?

The average household spends between 250 to 500 each year to have their taxes figured out. There is no one person on the planet that can truely say they understand the entire tax code. Even half of the information given on the IRS help line is inaccurate. That would be the IRS’s own estimate.

The next time you see someone you care about get screwed ovr by the IRS, remember your comments placed here.

By G

August 7, 2007 3:52 PM | Link to this

Fair Tax = FREEDOM

By Randy

August 7, 2007 4:02 PM | Link to this

Hey GaLiberal and everybody else that thinks Boortz is pushing this just to sell his book. News Flash! He donates 100% of his proceeds from the book to charity.

By Schizoidman

August 7, 2007 4:59 PM | Link to this

Cliff, using your example of the family making $70000 a year, under the current system their after tax income is about $50000 and they spend every dime. Under the fair tax, their income is $78000 ($70000 + $8000 prebate) If you assume the prices do not fall, the family would have to pay $65000 for the same purchases. This leaves $13000 left over that can be invested. If invested wisely, it wouldn’t be long before they become one of the evil rich. If prices drop as predicted in the book, their annual savings doubles.

By Ron F.

August 7, 2007 6:17 PM | Link to this

In regards to comments made by “Lisa B” on Aug 6th, concerning Oregon dropping the income tax and property tax for a sales tax. Sorry, never happened in the 65 years I’ve lived here, nor since we became a state. We have voted a sales tax down NINE Times, and most likely will continue to do so in the future. Please stop smoking what ever it is your smoking, and check your facts before posting.

By Patrick

August 7, 2007 6:45 PM | Link to this

Fanatics? Religious cult? How about just a rather large group of very hard working Americans who have educated themselves enough to know that the pro’s greatly outweigh the con’s here. It is not the “PerfectTax”, it is the “Fairtax”.

The most important disagreements I have read above are two: the plan would not reduce government and the Pre-bate would probably create a monster we would have difficulty reigning in.

BUT….passage of this legislation would give us a fighting chance to truly achieve the freedoms we supposedly enjoy now: life, liberty, and the pursuit (not guarantee) of happiness.

By Joel Pettlon

August 7, 2007 6:49 PM | Link to this

Yes, there are problems with the fair tax. Yes, it would eiminate “progressive” taxation. Yes, there would need to be something to replace the IRS to try to enforce the collection of sales tax. Yes, there would be some confusion about what products and services were being used for buisiness purposes and shouldn’t be taxed and which ones weren’t. Yes, it creates obvious welfare-state type checks. Yes, those checks would be more or less useful depending on where in the U.S. you live because of varying prices. Yes, people are already rich and/or have high incomes who don’t buy much won’t be paying much tax. Yes, charitable donations won’t recieve tax credits. Yes, sales taxes aren’t stable. Yes, it doesn’t change the levels of spending.

So what?

ELIMINATING PROGRESSIVE TAXATION Eliminating progressive taxation doesn’t mean the government has to stop wringing cash from the rich. All it has to do is spend a larger portion (maybe even only the same amount)of proceeds on programs the rich don’t bother with like food stamps, public education, and government funded medical insurance. If that was your aim, it wouldn’t hurt to cut corporate subsidies and bailouts down some either. You do those things, and the rich can easily end up paying as much or more for the poor and middle class compared to what they’re getting than they are now. A “progressive” tax is only one way to do that, in otherwords, it can be made largely irrelevant through other means.

REPLACING THE IRS With a few exceptions, a sales tax would probably be harder but simpler to keep accurate and enforced than our other taxes.

Payrole taxes can be avoided by paying people “under the table”.

Corporations shift money around so it looks like they’ve either made less than they have when tax time comes around, or shelter the money in one way or another. One nifty trick is to give money to “non-profit” orgainizations that exist only to do their lobbying for them (among other things) with lower taxes or tax free. The Fair Tax eliminates that.

Most people don’t know what deductions and credits they can get. Even if they did, they often lose their reciepts, don’t remember to save the reciepts, or don’t bother to keeping reciepts in the first place.

As was mentioned by others, most states already have sales tax of some sort, so the infrastructure is mostly in place already. Catching people doing things like selling for a high price and reporting the sale at a lower price would be tough. However, I think we would need only a small fraction (my admittedly uneducated guess would be less than 20%, though someone could probably reason out a better estimate for me here) of the current federal collection system doing that simpler but harder job to have better results than we’re getting with the current system.

That would release huge numbers of educated people to do other jobs. The number of people in private tax preparation firms who could then find new jobs in other industries is also enormous. Then there’s all the hours saved by the average citizen not needing to deal with it all.

CONFUSION ON TAXABLE STATUS Many, if not all, items and services are usable as business items and services. Is lumber going into building a new house which will be taxed when sold or into a self-built deck? Are the cosmetics going to actors to make a movie or to a woman just wanting to look pretty around town? This is probably the largest problem with the Fair Tax.

WELFARE-STATE STYLE CHECKS This probably wouldn’t become a problem because it is only to be a fraction of basic living needs, which would necessitate people to work still. It is true that it could become a problem, because it is based on what people -decide- is the amount people will need to spend on basics and what those basics are, unless objective guidelines are maintained.

AREA COST INFLATION VS SET CHECKS Someone living in Los Angeles will pay a lot more for basics than someone in rural Kentucky. Therefore a person in LA would get less benefit from the check. However, the benefits of living in LA may outweigh the difference in relative amount of cost of living defrayment, so I see no need to make people recieve more or less depending on location. If they want to live in LA instead of the countryside, that’s their decision and they reap the consequences and rewards.

LOW-SPENDING RICH NOT PAYING TAX If people with wealth don’t spend money, where is it? It is invested. It is either in businesses, giving jobs and providing products and services to others, or it is saved somewhere such as a bank, where others borrow it to do things like starting a business of their own or building a home. Either way, not spending their money, no matter how much they gain, would only help others.(well, there is a point where it could become a problem, if someone or few got where they owned almost everything, but it’d be almost impossible to accomplish)We can always change the laws later if we really need to if it starts to become a problem.

CHARITY TAX CREDITS If the only reason someone is giving to charity is “tax reasons”, there’s probably something wrong with the charity. That being said, charities could be treated where what they buy, as far as products and services, is taxed, but the money going into them isn’t taxed. The donators havn’t actually spent it, just moved it elsewhere to be spent.

INSTABILITY OF SALES TAXES Property taxes and income taxes are about as instable as sales taxes on a yearly basis. Housing markets can fluctuate wildly, and it’s not as though employment statistics stay constant. On a montly and daily basis, of course sales taxes are more unstable, but we don’t adjust the national budget on a monthly or daily basis( Christmas shopping comes to mind). We do budgets on a yearly basis, when not looking even further ahead. If you want a budget that works, plan for a surplus, and build up a reserve for when an extra large spate of emergencies make the budget fall short.

SPENDING LEVELS MrLiberty stated that we’re still spending at unprecedented levels and seemed to imply that we shouldn’t bother with the Fair Tax because we would need to pay more like 50 cents on the dollar to even things out. That would be true under the current system too. Switching to the Fair Tax doesn’t make it any harder to fix the budget. The budget is a completely separate issue. It’s like saying we shouldn’t bother switching from buying $500 toilet seats because Bob’s hair is green. Switching to the Fair Tax should actually help, because the simplifications should free up more time for people to pay attention to what’s happening with the budget, not to mention the slight lowering of the budget from the laid-off IRS workers. Sure, we should fix the budget, but we should fix other stuff too.

By Eric Parsons

August 7, 2007 7:03 PM | Link to this

OK, I hear all you liberals b*** that the rich need to pay more, they need to be punished for working so hard to employ the rest of us. Where do you idiots think all the jobs come from in this country?? the evil rich, yeah thats right, every time you liberals get power and raise taxes to support your socilization of America the economy tanks, WHY? because the evil rich fire people because their profit margins go down. It also drives up prices. Then even more people slide into poverty. The Fairtax levels the playing field. I would keep 26,000 more per year to spend on whatever I want, and all that stuff I am buying WILL NOT cost more than it does now, not after all the other embedded taxes are gone. All those illegal aliens will be paying taxes, all the tourists from other countries will pay taxes.

The industrial world has already stated flatly, the day after the USA passes the fairtax, they will move their manufacturing and headquarters to the USA. To liberals all they can say is “OH MY GOD, MORE RICH COMPANIES” to all my poverty stricken friends in the north struggling to get by on crappy service jobs because all the big companies baled out due to 13-30 percent tax rates, they will all see those long abandoned factories snatched up and churning out goods. The economy bill boom and all the Liberals out there will see massive increases in federal money they can p** away on social programs.

The only reason people b*** about the FairTax is they seem to think it means cutting funding for social programs and they hate the idea that they won’t be able to “punish” the over acheivers in this country for having the nerve to do well, work hard and reap the rewards. The rich deserve those big houses and huge salaries for all the work they do to support this economy. I sur ecouldn’t stand the stress of working 100 hours a week, the paperwork, the hassles and all those people depending on my leadership. So to all you libs out there… Get off your fat asses and go to school, get better jobs, spend less time trying to live off the government teet and do for yourself, thats the American way and that is what the FairTax means to me. It lets me keep what I work so hard to earn and spend it where I want, not where YOU want.

By Chris

August 7, 2007 7:18 PM | Link to this

If you haven’t read the book, don’t comment on the FairTax (as it is officially spelled, for the literacy-deficient).

You can compare it to religious people saying, “Read the Bible!” all you want. But unless you have read the book, and how the FairTax actually works and how it affects everyone, keep your mouth shut. Enjoy your tidy, tax-filled existence. Personally, I’ll fight for something that puts power back in the hands of the people, while also SAVING the poor a lot of money.

By Craig also

August 7, 2007 9:54 PM | Link to this

I think it was Abe Lincoln who said “You can’t fool all the people all the time.” Based on the silliness evident on this blog, clearly he never talked to anyone from Georgia.

By Bitter EX democrackkk

August 7, 2007 10:12 PM | Link to this

FairTax will be the greatest return of POWER to the PEOPLE since the Revolution! True FREEDOM! And YES the IRS CAN BE abolished!

By Darrell Sikes

August 7, 2007 10:33 PM | Link to this

The Fairtax is going to happen because the people want it to happen. This Country is by the people, for the people, and of the people.

By Mark

August 7, 2007 10:56 PM | Link to this

Absolutely stunning! Thanks to all the FairTax supporters that have tried to enlighten the Daily Kos/Moveon.org morons. It exceeds belief that, given a resource to consume and reflect upon, the naysayers would rather find ineffective rebuttals (read lies) regarding a program designed to benefit ALL. As with every other important issue facing the country, practical Americans will again have to carry the idiots to the promised land-and then, once the promise has been fulfilled, they’ll claim they were on board the whole time. FairTax WILL happen, losers-get ready!!

By Samuel

August 7, 2007 11:28 PM | Link to this

I don’t suppose many of you remember the old days of the Prohibition. An amendment was passed by government forbidding the sale of alcohol. As a result, the mob sprung up. Its purpose at the time was to distribute liquor within secrecy, but it moved up to hits and drive-bys. Even after the amendment was recanted, the mob stayed.

Now, with the FairTax, we’re getting rid of several burdensome taxes and replacing it with a flat sales tax. Why, then, we would have an underground economy. There will be people who buy wholesale and distribute goods secretly without implementing the 30% sales tax. By doing that, they practically cheat on the tax system. The only difference is, they’re harder to catch, since we’re not guaranteeing every criminal to keep a receipt.

So, FairTax: tax-evaders up, tax revenue down. The repercussions would be felt far and wide.

By Todd

August 7, 2007 11:52 PM | Link to this

Bill Pearson:

So YOU deserve the dollars that the top 10% earned and they don’t? Please explain why people who earned money do not deserve it, but slackers who are posting here on this site at 4:30pm, rather than working hard, should be entitled to it?

Man is entitled to what he earns. Not a penny more.

By Todd

August 7, 2007 11:58 PM | Link to this

Luke writes:

For all those who are critical of the FairTax, my question is, do you really like paying income taxes?

Remember, Luke, based on the caliber of argument that most of the opponents here are posting, they likely pay zero income tax today. They do, however, pay other payroll taxes, but probably don’t realize it.

By Anonymous

August 8, 2007 8:26 AM | Link to this

It’s silly to claim this as a black-or-white issue: “If you don’t love the FairTax, you must love everything about our current tax system! *There are NO other options.”

Which is like saying if you can point to an unanswered question in evolutionary theory, that’s “proof” that Creationism is true.

It’s entirely possible to criticize our current tax system and still not love Boort’z regressive plan. Think for yourselves, folks.

By Mark McG

August 8, 2007 9:33 AM | Link to this

To Lisa B.

Nevermind the FairTax book, grab an Economics book. The spending trends in this country are WAY more stable than the income trend.

And who said anything about getting rid of property taxes? The FairTax only gets rid of many of the FEDERAL taxes that we and businesses pay. Property tax is local and would still be in place under the FairTax.

Schools would still be funded, and your kids can still go to the prom.

As far as the farmers losing their deduction: When there is no income tax from which to deduct, why would someone care about deductions? In reality, it’s like getting a 100% deduction. They are not buying their tractors and farm equipment at a retail level, so there is no federal tax they would pay on it.

You only need a deduction if there is an income tax return to file. Under the FairTax there are no federal personal income tax returns to file.

By CT

August 8, 2007 10:26 AM | Link to this

for Cliff, posting at 10:47am yesterday:

(apologies if someone already addressed this…)

Your argument misses the point. You talk about how the middle class are burdened by paying a higher share of income in taxes. That is simply the wrong way to look at a consumption-based tax.

If you believe we should be taxed equally on income, then you have made a step in the right direction toward fairness. Now take that next step and see that being taxed on consumption is even fairer. Consumption-based taxation leaves the choice directly in the hands of the consumer. If you want to pay lower taxes, simply consume less, buy used, etc.

By Luke

August 8, 2007 10:40 AM | Link to this

By Anonymous August 8, 2007 8:26 AM “It’s silly to claim this as a black-or-white issue: ‘If you don’t love the FairTax, you must love everything about our current tax system! *There are NO other options.’”

We aren’t saying the FairTax is the ONLY option, we’re saying it’s the BEST (outside of no taxes at all). If you can dream up a better idea, please enlighten us. Until then, please dig your head out of the sand!! This is fairly black and white!

To Todd: Thanks for the clarification; Having always worked hard to remain above the level of government handouts, I have a very hard time understanding that mentality.

Cheers!

By Julie B

August 8, 2007 3:02 PM | Link to this

I would like to ask the readers of this blog some simple questions … 1. Who do you think is paying for the health care for all the people in this country illegally? 2. Who do you think is paying for their social security and welfare benefits? And YES, some are receiving these services from our wonderful government.

I can answer these 2 questions with one answer - THE AMERICAN TAXPAYER! Don’t you think that the FairTax would solve this issue?

By John Paul McDaniel

August 9, 2007 5:54 PM | Link to this

We here in Texas have a state sales tax and it has resulted in NONE! of the dire predictions some have foreseen. There has been no scandal, corruption, or cheating in relation to it. It has funded our state government SPLENDIDLY! We Texans, tourists, illegal aliens, criminals, etc. are all in INSTANT COMPLIANCE!! every time we go through the “cash-register-check-out-line”. Virtually no one escapes paying. If it works for Texas it will work for the nation.

THINK ABOUT IT MORE……………………………………………

Read and Enjoy…………………………………………..

APRIL 15TH????? Let’s make it just another Spring day.

HR 25, the Fair Tax Act, is in the House Ways and Means Committee of congress, waiting to be passed into law. If passed, the Income Tax & IRS would be abolished and replaced with a national (retail only) sales tax.

Everyone shoud go to: www.congress.org and tell their congressmen that they want HR 25 passed into law ASAP!!!! If we all “push together”, we can make it happen. There’s nothing to it, BUT TO DO IT!!!!!!

Read and Enjoy.

The FINAL SOLUTION!! for the IRS & Income Tax Problem

50 Reasons I Support the FairTax (How many reasons can you give for supporting the present obsolete IRS & income tax system?)

Those Who Know the Facts Love the Fair Tax “Family Friendly Tax Reform” Tax Reform with far less pain and much more gain! Out with the Old Code and in with the New (national RETAIL ONLY sales tax).

www.fairtax.org

Best Regards, John Paul McDaniel

Go to: www.fairtax.org

PLEASE CONSIDER THIS ALSO:

22% of all that you buy currently is tax / tax compliance cost. When that cost goes away (under the Fair Tax) the price of your $1.00 item (purchased at Wal-Mart, for example) drops in price to 78 cents (without damaging the profit margin).

1.23 X 78 cents = 96 cents.

Seeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!! Even with the 23% Fair Tax added on, your originally $1.00 item is now 4 cents cheaper.

The “out-of-pocket” cost of living , under the Fair Tax , will be no more than it is now.

Under the Fair Tax there are NO LOSERS, only winners, the difference being that some win BIGGER!!!! than others due th their increased FRUGALITY.

Best Regards, John Paul McDaniel

Go to: www.fairtax.org

By Jeff

August 9, 2007 6:31 PM | Link to this

I find the kneejerk reaction of average citizens who are staunchly against the Fair Tax to be objecting to the fact that the Fair Tax won’t be perfect, for example that the Fair Tax will still require compliance costs as administering a sales tax has challenges too. There’s no valuation of the relative strength/weaknesses of status quo versus the Fair Tax.

I’m the patient type. If the measure of “burdensome” could be measured, then each year the Federal Government’s “burdensome” index rises, so eventually a tipping point will be reached.

I think it’s “funny” that we have an entire industry of “tax preparers” solely because the tax code the citizens have paid for is so complicated we have to pay for someone else to figure out what we owe. We have people who get Master’s degrees in taxation, CPA’s and EA’s who spend their entire career charging people to figure out their taxes. I don’t blame these people - they’re just capitalizing on what exists. The government is to blame for making “the code” a mystery.

By John Reed

August 10, 2007 6:35 PM | Link to this

Oregons school problems were caued by mismanagement, not by lack of money.

EVERY job that exists was created either directly or indirectly by a rich person. That is what rich people do when they invest their $. Taking their $ and giving it to the government (which has just about the worst financial management track record in history) is really not that smart. People are better off managing their $ then burocrats.

By John Reed

August 10, 2007 6:35 PM | Link to this

Oregons school problems were caued by mismanagement, not by lack of money.

EVERY job that exists was created either directly or indirectly by a rich person. That is what rich people do when they invest their $. Taking their $ and giving it to the government (which has just about the worst financial management track record in history) is really not that smart. People are better off managing their $ then govt employees.

By Keith Ritzler

August 11, 2007 4:20 PM | Link to this

I love the “rich haters”. Assuming these people have a job to begin with,they probably don’t work for someone who is on welfare or working at a minimum wage job. They are working for a “rich” person, the only one who can afford to hire them. If they are self-employed, they are trying to become one of those hated “rich”.

Many employers try to minimize their work force because of the matching income tax money they have to pay for each one. Some try to hire independent contractors for that reason so the worker has to pay his own taxes (including an additional 13% self-employment tax to make up for what wasn’t taken out of his pay by the employer. I know, “I are one”.

Under the FairTax, a person designated as an employee doesn’t collect the sales tax. But an independent contractor would as he/she is selling a service - their time and expertise. Simply by hiring a person to do work and preparing a piece of paper making him/her at least a part-time or temporary employee eliminates the need for sales tax collection for that person. So he/she gets their full paycheck and spends all of it, thereby paying the sales tax. The government still gets the tax and the employer has no additinal expense by hiring that person. This is job creation if you haven’t figured it out by now.

I have no objection to the “rich”. In fact, if I was more of risk taker, I might even be one. So go on being a rich-hater and hang on to that resentment when you cash your paycheck realizing it was written for you by one of those nasty rich people.

By bluhanama

August 13, 2007 12:02 PM | Link to this

It was very obvious that Giulani had not read the FairTax book. Then he lied about it. He mentioned that he didn’t think it was possible to change our system of taxation in such a radical way.

Those are not characteristics I want for a president. No lies anymore.

I want a “can do” attitude. If the people want it, then we CAN DO IT.

The Fair Tax is not perfect, but it is so superior to anything else. Get the government out of my business. It is no one’s business how much much money I make unless I want them to know.

What a joke the tax code has become!

By John Blixx

August 21, 2007 9:41 PM | Link to this

The fairtax hurts the middle class and poor. The fairtax takes away the home mortgage deduction and puts a new 30 percent tax on food, shelter, clothing, medical bills, surgery, legal bills etc. On the other hand it makes inheritances for billionaires tax free and eliminates taxes for the wealthy who live off all interest incomes. Before you make up your mind on the fairtax, see what the opposition is saying on fairtaxfraud.com. The Fair Tax Fraud Institute.

By Adam Smith

August 21, 2007 10:04 PM | Link to this

John Blixx: In addition to putting out false information on the FairTax, what ELSE do you do in your spare time?

If I thought you could possibly understand the concept of NET BENEFITS, then I would undertake the task.

• “new 30 percent tax…” WRONG

• “inheritances for billionaires tax free…” WRONG. The FairTax doesn’t single out people on the basis of their income or net worth in order to levy a tax.

”..eliminates taxes for the wealthy who live off all interest incomes…” WRONG. If the “wealthy” buy things, they pay taxes under the FairTax.

You failed to mention the FairTax eliminates federal income taxes and payroll-based taxes. Also:

Abolishes the IRS Closes all loopholes and brings fairness to taxation Ensures Social Security and Medicare funding

-Brings transparency and accountability to tax policy -Allows American products to compete fairly -Reimburses the tax on purchases of basic necessities -Enables retirees to keep their entire pension -Enables workers to keep their entire paycheck

[See FairTax.org]

Good luck to your sir.

By Adam Smith

August 21, 2007 10:11 PM | Link to this

One other thing: Do a search (Ctrl F) on the word “rich” on this page. Most instances of the word are where little, jealous people are speaking about the “evil rich”.

One question: If you taxed the “rich” [which is anyone making over $100k in household income according to the Dems] 100%, such that ALL their income was removed, how much better off would YOU be? Huh? Zero, zilch, nothing, nada. You folks just want to strike down successful people. With that attitude, you’ll never get there yourself.

“Jelousy makes everyone sick but the person who’s got it.”

By Will Jones

August 22, 2007 9:02 AM | Link to this

The Fair Tax is a con to exploit the People and serve the false rich who even now have failed to remove the pervert traitor from the White House who committed 9-11 to take us to false war. Neil Boortz is no man: He is a Chickenhawk, blowhard and hypocrite serving Mammon - not The People. As his line is cut-off, like Reagan’s, should we think Annuit Coeptis applies to him or to any who give credence to his thoughts?

By Scooter

August 22, 2007 12:34 PM | Link to this

Will Jones makes some compelling arguments, but I have to agree with Mr. Blixx. Everyone should go to fairtaxfraud.com (why .com and not .org?). Anyway a little tidbit of their intelligent discourse;

If you get the chance to go to one of these FairTax gatherings you will probably find yourself adrift in a sea of old, bald, and angry Forrest Gumps wearing white tee shirts bearing that familiar “No IRS” with a slash through it. Yes, there will be Mrs. Gump’s too - sunglasses, cigarettes, and flabby white arms that rippled as they clapped. Oh, and don’t for get the chubby kids with food stains on the white tee shirts waving flags and sucking on ice cream as echoing country music and garbled announcements fill the air.

Nice huh?

…was created it was promoted to a particular audience — Conservatives who listen to talk radio.

Hmmmm? they really do some demonization over there and I didn’t know Alan Greenspan listened to talk radio.

By dhoward

August 22, 2007 1:24 PM | Link to this

hey scooter and blixx,,,,you morons haven’t got a clue,,,,guess you are showing your government school deplomas….my guess is that you make a living filling out incometax forms for a living…..good luck finding a job…..

By Lets Pretend

August 22, 2007 2:03 PM | Link to this

After the Fair Tax becomes enacted we’re going to work for Natural Gas Deregulation.

You see, if there is competition in the market place, you know a Fair Market, our prayers will be answered. Lower natural gas bills for all!!!!!!

By Scooter

August 22, 2007 3:25 PM | Link to this

dhoward, I recommend you review my statements ^^^^^^^ there and reevaluate your presumptions of my position.

LP, sorry you fear freedom so much you want the government to financially protect you from the free market.

By dhoward

August 23, 2007 12:44 PM | Link to this

sorry scooter,,,looking again i see you didn’t write the unsigned post under your recent one….some idiot talking about the people at the fairtax rally…what a dope….the fairtax is the only thing i see that can save this country from the carrier politicians……

By Scooter

August 23, 2007 1:52 PM | Link to this

dhoward, no worries mon.

Anyone who has ever spouted off the “power to the people” line should diligently pursue the enactment of the FairTax. Unfortunately it is easier to “portray” intelligence through knee-jerk criticisms. This aspect of the human condition provides politicians with the useful idiots necessary to maintain their power OVER the people. Well, that and the politicians system of educating tomorrows sissified dependents - I mean adults.

By dhoward

August 23, 2007 3:00 PM | Link to this

went to the fairtax-fraud website,,,interesting,, but when he spouted off about a 30% added on tax,,i knew he was one of the anti-fairtax idiots,,,then near the end he really showed his liberal lean by attacking linder for his conservitive voting record….

By Will Jones

August 23, 2007 4:07 PM | Link to this

The faction pushing for the “Fair Tax” is same one untroubled by a draft-dodging closet-queen in the White House getting away with committing 9-11…or his bigamist NAFTA-father killing John Kennedy…or his Knight of Malta grandfather being the money conduit. from Rockefeller and the American Roman Catholic Church collection plate, to the author of “I Paid Hitler.”

The other 80% of Americans must sharpen our Whig wits and mattocks and again do a “1776” on the Tories

By dhoward

August 24, 2007 12:32 PM | Link to this

will jones,,,is that really you rosie O……….hehehe…

By jason

August 29, 2007 7:16 PM | Link to this

I don’t see how in anyone’s right mind they argue this would help the economy. If people are getting taxed for goods, they are paying more for goods. This will obviously lead to them buying less goods. Just using common sense, how would people buying less goods help the economy?

By jason

August 29, 2007 7:21 PM | Link to this

to dhoward, it is a 30% tax added on to goods, if you look at it the way most people understand a tax. it’s 23% tax inclusive, but that’s not how the normal person looks at taxes. they look at them as tax exclusive.

example, a normal person sees 6% states sales tax and knows that he will pay $.06 for every dollar he spends. That’s tax exclusive. that’s how taxes are stated.

however, with the fair tax, for every dollar you spend, you will be taxed $.30. So tax exclusively, that’s a 30% tax, which is how taxes are stated pretty much everywhere as far as i know. they say it’s 23% to make it sound lower, but that’s tax inclusive 23%. 23% equals that $.30 of the total $1.30 you’d end up spending.

main point, dhoward, before you try making points, understand things for yourself.

By dhoward

August 31, 2007 12:23 PM | Link to this

your and idot jason,,,what do you do for a living,,teach math in government schools,,,,,read the book or go to fairtax.org and get educated,,,,or quit spouting off with the same old lies about the fairtax……

By Craig also

August 31, 2007 12:57 PM | Link to this

“your and idot”

sometimes you just don’t need to say anything at all, do you…

By Craig also

August 31, 2007 1:02 PM | Link to this

“your and idot”

Sometimes you don’t have to say anything at all, do you.

dhoward, I bet you’re a proud Boortz listener, right?

By dhoward

August 31, 2007 6:58 PM | Link to this

and i bet your a IDIOT,,,i went to gov. schools also,,,but seriously,,,how can anybody like this taxe system we have,,fairtax is not perfect, but look what we have now,,you have to be a politician or work for H&R to not like the fairtax…..and i am an avid bortz listener, i’m sure not going to listen to someone like al gore or hillery, kennedy, palocie, reed, or some of the scum on the other side of the ile…….

By Craig also

August 31, 2007 9:06 PM | Link to this

“and I am an avid boortz listener”

what a surprise…

By dhoward

September 1, 2007 11:02 AM | Link to this

and what a supprise that the same old lies about the fairtax just keep coming from libs like you……….get used to it,,the fairtax is comming……

By Scooter

September 4, 2007 12:32 PM | Link to this

Jason, the tax inclusive rate is quoted to make an apples to apples comparison to the Income Tax. For example, someone makes 60,000/yr and is in a 20 percent federal tax bracket. Therefore, they bring home $60,000 x 0.8 = $48,000 and pay $12,000 in federal taxes. So if they brought home $48,000 and paid $12,000 in taxes, that would be a 25 percent exclusive tax, but the income tax says it is 20 percent? As with most things politicians promote to the people it is all smoke and mirrors designed to maintain there manipulative power over the people.

Also Jason, in your analysis of the macro-ecomomic impacts of the FairTax on spending, I think you left out some positive variables. First, all goods have an embedded tax in them, because every level of production must inflate the wholesale price of the good in order to profitably pay their taxes. Remove the tax consequences from the levels of production and competitive forces will reduce the retail price accordingly. So we will have the price of retail goods remain relatively the same, but people keep all their paycheck and the tax base is expanded exponentially.

Jason, the FairTax takes soooo much power away from politicians and K-Street lobbyist, free people should be looking for ways to make it happen.

By Will Jones

September 4, 2007 1:34 PM | Link to this

As a stopped clock is right twice a day, apologist for fascist plutocracy Neal Boortz was correct, today, to knock the Roman Catholic Church and its Hitler Youth pope on the issue of illegal immigration…the regressive “Fair-Tax” on the other hand calls for more thoughtful discussion…some of which can be found on-line:

[If you believe the income of the rich is being confiscated and given to lazy poor people who don’t pull their weight, and you favor a regressive tax to give the rich a break and force the poor to pay their share, then come right out and say that. But don’t try to pretend the FairTax isn’t regressive, because there’s no question that it is.

Bill Hirschi  ·  Jun 8, 2007 at 10:22 am ](http://www.fairtaxblog.com/20051201/is-the-fairtax-regressive/)

By dhoward

September 4, 2007 3:00 PM | Link to this

ok,,willjones,,just say i’m a (rich) guy and i want to buy a boat that costs $650,000, how does the company selling me the boat get out of paying the sales tax by cutting me somekind of deal….explain????

By Craig also

September 4, 2007 3:13 PM | Link to this

i’m sure will can answer for himself, dhoward, but it’s so easy - they could, for example, move offshore, and smuggle the boat in. Fraud would be epidemic under your silly plan - if you’re a rich guy (as you say) and you found a way to save almost $200,000 on the price of your boat, are you going to tell me you wouldn’t give it a try?

By Scooter

September 4, 2007 3:21 PM | Link to this

Receiving our whole paycheck and not paying any taxes up to the poverty level certainly doesn’t seem regressive to me.

Perhaps Will Jones has something vested in the divisiveness fostered by our current income tax system. Class warfare is fundamental to some peoples’ politics… I personally don’t promote envy and animosity between Americans.

By Scooter

September 4, 2007 3:34 PM | Link to this

dhoward, it is obvious that certain people have made up their minds and are now searching out validation for their convictions. You will not change their minds, continue if you like!

By Will Jones

September 4, 2007 9:06 PM | Link to this

“Class Warfare”? Look at the precepts of The Revolution betrayed by the spiraling concentration of wealth in America’s de facto fascist plutocracy. Why quote Limbaugh when it’s obvious, w/ his blue pills in the Dominican Republic, multiple childless marriages, and great fey mimics that he is a pervert and pederast? Do you not know the “draw” in Hispanola generally unavailable on NYC’s “Minnesota Strip?” Of course you don’t care. Sympathetic to a draft-dodging closet-queen like Bush who committed 9-11, Justice, Truth, Probity or Economy is the least of your concerns.