Political Insider

By Oliver Brown

March 7, 2007 8:02 PM | Link to this

I am a fifth generation Georgian. My gggrand father Adam Brown was born in 1800 in Edgefield, S.C. He was owned by James Shackelford, a slave owner. In the spring of 1840 Shackelford sold his Plantation in Abbeville,S.C. and moved to Early County Georgia. Shackelford owned 91 slaves and my gggrand father Adam was one of those slaves.

In 1860 his slave population had increased to 231 by birth only and 26 slaves had died. His exslaves refered to themselved as “Shacks”.

He purchased 5,ooo acres of land on the Chattahochee River near the town of Cedar Springs, Georgia for $10,000.00 dollars. After the “War of the Rebellion”, also called the “Civil War” was over Adam took the Name of Adam Adam, but his children soon change their last name to Brown. Adam also changed his last name to Brown.

This year is the 400 anniversary of the first slaves landed at Jamestown, Va. Do I expect Sonny to push for passage of a resolution like the ones that were passed by the states of Virginia and Tennessee?

I no longer belive in Santa Claus or the tooth ferry so it would be very very difficult, if not impossible, for me to belive that Sonny would ever do such a thing. Remember he is the darling of the “Flaggers”!

By SharonH

March 7, 2007 8:11 PM | Link to this

snicker

Ha-ha

Bwahahahahahahahahaha!

Do you really think Sonny Perdue has the courage and the integrity to do something like that? Our Sonny?!

I am a 6th generation Georgian and my gg-grandparents were also enslaved in Early County as were Mr.Brown’s. My opinions are strongly rooted not just in their history and the descendants who came after them but in my own personal history; in other words, reality.

*“Let your legacy reflect that on your watch, you took a stand to unite Georgia by becoming the first governor to acknowledge these wrongs,” wrote Edward DuBose, the NAACP president.

Imagine how those words might look on a brass plaque in a Republican governor’s office.*

Imagine this: the Republican base is angry. Very, very angry. Their leader gave in to the “race-hustlers” and the “shakedown artists”. How dare they? I can hear the contempt now. That’s enough to make your base stay home at the next election. Especially if that base is still fighting the Civil War and and are still angry about the Civil Rights movement. Georgia is the last stand for the red staters and they’re not about to go for any of that liberal conciliatory apology crap. It would take an extremely intelligent, progressive leader with a vision and a will to do the right thing and let’s face it; Sonny ain’t that man.

By Mollie

March 7, 2007 9:05 PM | Link to this

My family came to Virginia in the 1600’s as Quakers and were opposed to slavery then. The family emigrated west.

I grew up in California and through my school and my family upbringing I was raised to believe slavery was shameful and that we will never be able to make up for it.

I moved to Georgia 10 years ago - what a rude awakening!!! Although I knew of OUTWARD racists, I had never actually met one until I moved here. Now I know Southern whites still resent that they lost the war, had to desegregate and to even ask them to apologize is a pipedream.

If Sonny Purdue were to sponsor a resolution - I would change my party affiliation, dress up in lingerie to mow the lawn AND shave my head, Ha! It’ll never happen. It was like pulling teeth in Virginia - and Virginia is “enlightened” compared to GA.

By Sam

March 7, 2007 9:11 PM | Link to this

If apologies over slavery are in order….I wonder if Sen. Barack Obama will stand in front of a mirror and apologize to himself? If he does, will he be sincere? Maybe, he should ask himself for an apology first! Very confusing, but no less perplexing than this issue itself!

By Billy

March 7, 2007 9:13 PM | Link to this

Will Gov. Sunshine Perdue apologize for slavery? Sure, why not, he sold out the state flag in 2003!

By George

March 7, 2007 9:20 PM | Link to this

This “politically correct” aplogetic crap has got to stop! Should President Washington have apologized to the Tories because we kicked some British a* in Yorktown? Should Honest Abe have apologized to southern rebels? Did Woody Wilson go to Europe and apologize to the Kaiser? Did Harry Truman apologize to the Japs for Hiroshima? Should George Bush apologize to Sadam’s relatives? Hell no! What is done is done…..history should not be re-writeen…..what has happened has happened…for a reason….now move on….go forward…..unless of course we want the Italians to apologize to the Bahamians (for Chris Columbus’ actions of course). While the Italians are apologizing….are they going to Addis Ababa with apologies? Hell no! So move on already so we can go do something that our great great great great grandchildren can demand somebody apologize for!

By Mollie

March 7, 2007 9:21 PM | Link to this

Sam - Its really not that confusing if you think about it. Our ancestors did a horrible thing to a bunch of people, those people’s ancestors are still feeling the pain and the shame. How does it hurt you to try to relieve their pain?

And I don’t see how Barack Obama’s African heritage somehow makes it all even. That’s quite a reach…

By Sam

March 7, 2007 9:29 PM | Link to this

Mollie - didn’t Sen. Obama say his white ancestors once owned slaves? Yes, hence he needs the mirror to ask for and receive apologies…..duh!

By Shawn

March 7, 2007 9:31 PM | Link to this

George (Nice name) - So - you are comparing George Bush and Sadaam to white people and the ancestors of slaves? That doesn’t even make sense.

Wow - I learn more about your “kind’s” logic everyday.

By Mollie

March 7, 2007 9:34 PM | Link to this

OK - so if Obama stands in front of a mirror and apologizes to himself - you’ll apologize for slavery? Sounds fair to me!

By Sam

March 7, 2007 9:36 PM | Link to this

PS to Mollie - whose ancestors once owned slaves? Not mine….they were to poor to own spit. Now Mollie, if you’re feeling guilty for your great grandparents actions, then please you be the first to auction your Buckhead Mansion off and pay reparations. By the way, who would you pay all that money to? I’m not sure any ex-slaves are still living. Are the lazy shiftless unemployed descendants of slaves owed something…anything…I think not!

By George

March 7, 2007 9:39 PM | Link to this

Shawn - yes I do have a nice name (but I only swing one way). Only your politically correct “logic” is confusing. Re-writing history is the only thing that doesn’t make sense!

By Sam

March 7, 2007 9:41 PM | Link to this

Mollie dear - listen up - I ain’t apologizing for sh**! I didn’t own any slaves; never could! You want apologies, go the graveyards and listen real carefully.

By Mollie

March 7, 2007 9:51 PM | Link to this

I’m not feeling guilt for my ancestors - they were Quakers and didn’t keep slaves.

But yes - I feel guilty that this great land of ours was built on the backs and lives of slaves, native americans, and others and that there are people like you out there who think the way you do.

And the funny part is it is people like you - descendants of “people too poor to own spit” are the most shameless racists out there. Like the only thing to make you feel better about your lot in life - is to belittle an entire race.

By the way, the NAACP isn’t asking for reparations. They are asking for an apology.

By George

March 7, 2007 10:02 PM | Link to this

Don’t flatter yourself. (By the way, I am a woman - don’t get me started on my name)

I am a history geek so bring it on. You compare Wilson and the Japanese to the American slavery. Funny - I don’t remember the people who became slaves building a military and attacking us.

Who’s rewriting history?

By Shawn

March 7, 2007 10:16 PM | Link to this

OOps. I had George on the mind and put it in the NAME field. This is Shawn. Duh - yeah.

By Shawn

March 7, 2007 10:24 PM | Link to this

Good heavens! I see I said Wilson when I meant Truman. OK - I’m signing off. Too much multi-tasking.

By Craig

March 8, 2007 8:34 AM | Link to this

good for you Mollie. One does wonder why it would be so terrible to simply offer an apology. And it might do a lot of good.

By Brian

March 8, 2007 9:57 AM | Link to this

I want to personally apologize. My parents owned slaves but they decided it was wrong when I was a teenager so they freed them. Being that I was there though I still feel guilty and I could have done something about it.

By RNM

March 8, 2007 10:14 AM | Link to this

I think we’re missing the point here. Obviously, no individual alive today should apologize for slavery as they couldn’t possibly have owned slaves. However, what’s being asked is not for an apology from individual, modern day Georgians who were not even alive when slavery was in practice — but from the State of Georgia, which as an entity did allow slavery and practice legally enforced segregation. As an entity, Georgia existed then as it does now. Frankly, I find it interesting that people on both sides of this argument insist on making it a personal issue. This has nothing to do with any individual but about an institution - that being the State of Georgia. The knee-jerk reaction of saying “well I didn’t own slaves!” or “I feel really bad about what other people did hundreds of years ago” is really indicative of the self-centered nature of modern society. Some things are much bigger than the individual.

By Billy Bearden

March 8, 2007 11:02 AM | Link to this

RNM

The current government of Georgia, and Virginia, did not exist during legalized slavery.

To give any meaningful apology, you should actually have had some involvement. Today, the only Governmental Body that existed in it’s same form during slavery is the US Govt - not the southern states.

American slavery began with legal approval by black man Anthony Johnson having a court appoint black slave John Casor as a lifetime servant in 1655. That was under English rule.

Government forms have changed numerous times for Southern States, but not Uncle Sam.

So, NO, the state of Georgia and Virginia have no legal, moral, emotional, or real grounds on which to apologize for slavery. Any apology is to make a very very small minority of race agitators pleased with themselves.

Even after the apology, and billions of Dollars that will bankrupt the US and individual states, these same agitators will not be placated. There will always be something else to demand, some new need or requirement that the majority must give them.

Can you not see the Emperor is naked?

By look it up

March 8, 2007 11:42 AM | Link to this

It doesn’t matter whether Perdoofus ‘apologizes’ for slavery. That’s a no-brainer. But the national media will never forget (nor should they) the 2002 election when Perdoofus and Ralph Reed made the Confederate Battle flag their signature campaign issue. The Civil War was about Slavery; if you don’t believe it, read the “Cornerstone Speech” by Confederate Vice President (and Georgia Senator) Alexander Stephens. is 2002 whoarinerh

By Elizabeth

March 8, 2007 11:44 AM | Link to this

Billy Bearden,

I am deeply sorry for any pain or suffering that you, your current family or your ancestors endured, particularly if it were sanctioned by any governing body. My personal empathy for what persecution people in the past may have endured doesn’t diminish me or the state or the world in any way. If anything, it illuminates my capacity for the very thing that makes us human: love.

By Sam

March 8, 2007 11:51 AM | Link to this

I said it last night and I say it again - nobody living today owes an apology to anyone for slavery. If you want or need an apology - go to the nearest graveyard and listen real carefully!

By MrLiberty

March 8, 2007 12:03 PM | Link to this

“condemnation of the South’s peculiar institution”

Just how ignorant do you think your audience is? Slavery was practiced all over this country until it was banned by amendment to the constitution. Even the supposedly great “Emancipation Proclamation” only banned slavery in the southern states. It went on like clockwork in the north, all throughout the war against southern secession.

Let’s look at what was really going on in this country at the time. The south was primarily agricultural, deeply dependant upon labor, while the north was getting the federal government to impose horrible tarrifs on the south and its exports. These tarrif dollars were going straight into the expansion of northern industry. The more the industry grew, the less dependant on slaves the north became. So while the north was victimizing the south to improve its condition, the south became more and more dependant upon slaves, just to be able to afford the taxes the north was imposing upon them. So in other words the north was benefitting from the slavery of the south nearly as much if not more that the south.

Secession was about restoring freedom to the south. Abraham Lincoln was a typical republican of the day. He favored crony capitalism, merchantilism, or “the American Plan” as it was known at the time. He assaulted the south with these tarrifs and then forbid them to exercise their legitimate right to seceed when they tired of the abuse.

Lincoln was in favor of sending the blacks back to Africa (the colonization movemeent) and had no intention of freeing the slaves until he saw that he could gain political points for the position.

My relatives came from France through Canada. If anything, they were indentured servants, but they sure as heck never owned slaves. If some politician wants to appologize for what his ancestors did in the past, have at it. But don’t appologise for me or my folks. They had nothing to do with the practice. If anything, we all have been the victims of what this country has become since the constitutional right of secession and limited federal power were destroyed by Lincoln’s unconstitutional war.

And get your damn history right for a change.

By Billy Bearden

March 8, 2007 12:37 PM | Link to this

Elizabeth

Thanks I reckon, but for what? Wasted internet ink? Previous generations lived the way they knew how and saw fit. I guess it made you feel better to apologize for something you didn’t do to others who no longer exist by people who no longer exist. Wow!

If slavery was fine with God’s greatest Heroes, and he used them as glowing examples of humanity, who are we to buck His Holy Word?

By Linda

March 8, 2007 1:18 PM | Link to this

Time for a history lesson children - The Emancipation Proclamation was never originally intended to be a liberating document - in fact, it was offered as a political deal to the Confederacy - the south had 100 days from September 22, 1862 (until Jan. 1, 1863) to surrender. If they did, they could keep their slaves and slavery. What the Emancipation Proclamation also did was not offend slave owners in the so-called nuetral and border states, i.e. Missouri, Kentucky, Maryland, certain portions of Viriginia and Louisiana. If the South did not accept the political offer (and they did not); then Lincoln’s document arrogantly “freed” the slaves. Were any slaves actually freed as a result - NO! Slaves were not freed until after the war was over and then it took a constitutional amendment to affirm this fact. OK kids, class over - now you can go to recess.

By Shawn

March 8, 2007 2:24 PM | Link to this

I guess we all agree on one thing - the State of Georgia will never apologize for slavery.

Those of us who think an apology is in order - know damned well it’s not happening.

The rest of you will do your part to make sure it never happens. Hell, you all would probably try another sorry secession attempt if Sonny even entertained the idea!

By Susanna

March 8, 2007 2:52 PM | Link to this

And, before there was such a demand for slaves, specifically - there were indentured servants and bound boys and girls. In the 1600’s, 1700’s and well into the 1800’s - 3/4’s of the population of the colonies were indentured. They came from England, Ireland, Scotland (most especially Scotland!) and many countries in Europe. They were here because there was a demand for labor. They were here because of the economics of that time. (We now have machinery to do most of that labor today! Be thankful for that machinery or we would be in quite a fix!)

Most of the ancestors of US citizens today came indentured or as slaves.

As an indentured person, you could not marry, could not own land, could not have sex, could not go to school, could not do anything which was not approved by the person who owned your indenture papers. At the end of your indenture, you would be given some clothes and some tools - not new. (If you could read, you would know when that was - Most could not read and they stayed indentured for 20 or more years even though the indenture may have ended after about 7 years). About the only differences between slavery and the indenture system is that - if you could afford it, the indentured person could have their day in court. The slave could have sex!.

Let us also not forget the little bound boys and girls. If you lost your parents and became orphaned - wards of your aunts and uncles - you would be “bound” to someone and lose everything your parents may have had. You could be 4 years old and be separated from all your siblings, probably forever.

Your treatment in all of this was entirely dependent on the person who owned your papers! Many of our ancestors who had been indentured servants or bound children, later held indentured and bound papers of others.

The demand for labor grew in the South because of the geology of the South. It had better land for growing the wheat, cotton, etc. that the colonies demanded. The land in the Northern states is still not great and is still rocky. That is the only reason the demand for labor - and later specifically slave labor - grew in the South and not the North (The indentured system continued in the North)

That was then. A long time ago. The economic system of those years demanded lots of labor. Slavery was already in existance for many centuries before there was ever a demand from the colonies. The colonies were another client! Slavers and neighboring (enemy) tribes in Africa helped to supply the demand. Slavery exists in other parts of the world and we would be better served working to end the demand for slaves everywhere today. (IF THERE IS TO BE ANY APOLOGY OR ACKNOWLEDGEMENT, IT SHOULD COME FROM AFRICA AND THE SLAVERS).

Because I descend from Quakers & Huegonots (here for religious freedom); indentured servants (here to keep a roof over their heads - and not necessarily willingly - remember the classic, “Kidnapped”?) and many others who came here in the 1600’s, 1700’s and 1800’s for a better way of life - I personally am grateful that I was born in this country and not any other!

We should work to improve the character of this country - to improve the integrity of this country - and not whine about a system that none of us today can fathom. Or, played any direct role.

By Susanna

March 8, 2007 2:59 PM | Link to this

Thank you, Linda. This is entirely true. While Lincoln is called ,”The Great Emancipator”, it was only as a result of a political deal. It was never his intention.
Hopefully, in all of this “political correctness” we seem to be enduring on alot of levels - History is not rewritten. Fact is fact!

By RNM

March 8, 2007 3:06 PM | Link to this

Billy Bearden- I wasn’t actually saying that the State of Georgia should apologize for slavery. I was trying to make the point that this is not an issue which is based on the individual since no individual alive today owned slaves. However, while you are technically correct that the current government of Georgia did not exist since the state went through Reconstruction, etc. etc., I think one can make an argument that as a societal entity the State of Georgia did in fact exist in the same form as it does today — otherwise, shouldn’t we remove “1776” from the state seal?? Now….how about we all put our energy into fighting the human trafficking that goes on TODAY (yes, even in the United States) of children, womean, and immigrants instead of fighting over history. It would be a much better use of energy and time and a way to honor those from the past who were enslaved by ensuring that no one today has to endure that.

By Tony

March 8, 2007 3:22 PM | Link to this

A few corrections to some posts from others…the current government of Georgia DID exist during slavery.

And to Mr. Liberty, your definition of the reason of secession needs a history lesson. It was for the protection of the plantation owners. Their way of life was supposedly endangered by the “evil” north. If you don’t believe me, read some speeches by Alexander Stephens. Remember him? Georgia’s own even says slavery is the sole reason.

By Jim J

March 8, 2007 3:37 PM | Link to this

Besides, who can you blame for slavery and segregation except Democrats?

This is the rankest piece of brainless garbage I’ve read in a long time. Obviously, you can only blame racists for slavery and segregation.

As the writers would know if they ever cracked a history book, the racists left the Democratic Party before LBJ’s ink was dry on the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

They now call themselves Republicans.

There’s a reason Nixon called it a “Southern Strategy,” and it lives to this day.

By Tony

March 8, 2007 3:49 PM | Link to this

That’s good to blame this on Democrats. Considering those southern Democrats have all switched over to become Republicans, one wonders who could perhaps be linked.

By Ben

March 8, 2007 4:40 PM | Link to this

To the folks that keep pointing to A.H. Stephens’ “Corner Stone” speech:

Stephens repeatedly denouced this speech as a collection of misquotes and lies. He never gave that speech as it is recorded. The last thing our liberal academic establishment is going to do is admit this even though there is facts to back it up.

My earilest ancestors in North America were Scotish indentured servents that helped build Savannah, GA. My family never owned slaves and certainly didn’t fight and die just so the rich could keep theirs! They fought because they believed the Republican Party was out to destroy the Constitution as it was intended to be administered. They were correct. The Constitution has been nothing but a “guildline” or “polite suggestion” since.

Evidently, you people are also forgeting that thousands of blacks free and slave served in the CSA Army and recieved equal pay and pention as whites. They also served side by side. In the US Army they were segregated, and blacks only received half pay as compared to white soldiers. The highest ranking black soldier in the was a Confederate!

Slavery was forced on the colonies by Britain after several attempted to ban it. By the time the Revolution was over slavery was a fact of life in Georgia and the state had to deal with it. Georgia can’t be held any more liable for the economy dependancy on slavery back then than it can be held liable for dependancy on oil today.

Furthermore, the government of Georgia was destroy after the war and forced to reconstitute itself under Reconstruction. The Georgia of 1861 and the Georgia of today are two different entities.

Segregation was something else forced on Southerners. Segregation laws were a hallmark of the Northern states that had ended slavery and wanted to drive the remaining blacks out of their states. States like Illinois that never permited slavery barred blacks from entering the state period! There were no segregation laws in the pre-war Southern states. They were instituted by the Northern controlled Reconstruction governments at the protest of many former Confederate leaders. If I remember correctly, the first court case regarding the legality of segregation concerned a school in Massachusetts in the 1870s.

Georgia owes no one an apology on slavery and we shouldn’t apologize for segregation until New England and reset of Yankeeland admits their hand in it as well. I won’t forget or forgive Lincoln’s war crimes or the North’s endless lying about it’s moral superiortiy in regards to race relations. We Southerns have been stepped on and used as a colonial possesion ever since that war. I’d gladly fight it again if we could successfully divorce ourselves politically from “those people” as Lee called them.

By Susanna

March 8, 2007 5:02 PM | Link to this

I think the bigger issue is that after certain states are forced to issue apologies (to be “politically correct”, I guess) for a part of a past for which no one alive today played any part or can really understand - how much will the so-called reparations be and to whom will that be paid?! (That’s the next step - right?)

Having done my genealogy and documented it, I know where I stand on this. Hope you do, too!

There are so many citizens of this country who came here after 1865 whose ancestors have absolutely nothing to do with this issue. I doubt they will think much about reparations.

I sure hope that this can go for a vote to the people and not be left to lawmakers. I doubt that any of this apology/reparation stuff will fly in most of this country. This isn’t about the South/North. (I live in the West) Nor, is it about Democrats/Republicans. It’s about money.

By Tony

March 8, 2007 6:37 PM | Link to this

Ben,

Please feel free to offer proof of Stephens’ denouncing that speech. I’d love to see the proof. As for all those evil Europeans forcing at gunpoint us noble sutherners to take slaves or die, that line is washed out.

Lincoln’s war of crimes? I guess attacking a federal installation and starving the soldiers out are an act of patriotism?

Ben, you keep believing your skewed views. No one can clearly change your mind. Facts are the slave owning politicians in the south screamed about their slaves being taken away even before the ink was dry on the Constitution. States couldn’t even be admitted to the US unless it was 1 to 1 slave and free. Southern states would not even sign the Constitution unless their way of life was protected.

One more thing Ben, what was the one MAJOR difference between the Confederate constitution and the US one? The CS one solidified slavery as protected and legal on quite a permanent basis. Quite a major point of difference in changes made after seceding.

By MrLiberty

March 8, 2007 6:56 PM | Link to this

Susanna,

For blacks who haven’t taken advantage of everything that has been given (free schooling, government grants and loans, free housing, welfare, free medical care, and on and on), this is about money.

For those attempting to assuage their own collective sense of guilt and politicians, its about votes.

I came from California to this state. When I first got here I thought the south was out of touch and just needed to get over the results of the war. The more I have read, the more I see how rotten our government has become, the more I learn about the foul history of the Republican party, the more I appreciate the struggle for freedom and the constitution the people of the south fought back in the 1860’s. It is very encouraging to see how many of you folks have managed to keep yourselves properly educated despite the brainwashing of the government school system (the winners wright the history books remember). It gives me some real hope for the future. Just remember, while the Georgia government has completely changed since the war of northern agression, the american government fundamentally has not (if anything it has gotten a whole lot worse.

Keep up the good fight.

By Jimmy L. Shirley Jr.

March 8, 2007 7:29 PM | Link to this

“It was wrong to rebel against the United States.” Roy Barnes, 2003 So, it was wrong to rebel against Great Britain?

“Let your legacy reflect that on your watch, you took a stand to unite Georgia by becoming the first governor to acknowledge these wrongs,” wrote Edward DuBose, the NAACP president. UNITE GEORGIA? What sort of mushrooms has this man been smoking, or eating or brewing for a tea? This will never UNITE GEORGIA. This will never UNITE anyone, except those Black racists who wear the black sheets and think like him, as well as those White ones who wear the white sheets. naacp=black klan kkk=white klan - two sides of the same coin!

By Shawn

March 8, 2007 7:35 PM | Link to this

Mr Liberty - Dude, as a fellow California ex-pat - what’s your deal? Let me guess - you worked for the LAPD. Either that - or you’re from the inland valleys.

By Mollie

March 8, 2007 7:41 PM | Link to this

Susanna - You sure don’t sound like any Quaker I know. I am also a descendant of Quakers and the stories passed down to me had a significantly different impact on me.

Please do yourself a service and don’t throw around the fact that you came from Quakers. Its pretty much irrelevant to how you turned out. (Hugenots - that’s fine - but not Quaker)

By Mollie

March 8, 2007 7:42 PM | Link to this

Susanna - You sure don’t sound like any Quaker I know. I am also a descendant of Quakers and the stories passed down to me had a significantly different impact on me.

Please do yourself a service and don’t throw around the fact that you came from Quakers. Its pretty much irrelevant to how you turned out. (Hugenots - that’s fine - but not Quaker)

By Jimmy L. Shirley Jr.

March 8, 2007 7:50 PM | Link to this

“Lincoln’s war of crimes? I guess attacking a federal installation and starving the soldiers out are an act of patriotism?” By Tony March 8, 2007 6:37 PM

“Hanging of 38 Dakota Indians” Dec 27 1862 (Saturday) (http://www.civilwarhistory.com/_/atrocities/December%2021,1862%2038dakotaindianshanged.htm)

For a whole list of yankee war crimes, go to this link, (http://www.civilwarhistory.com/menu17.htm) and, hopefully, they will answer any questions about the character of the conduct of an unConstitutional war waged in these united States of America back in the 1860’s.

By Susanna

March 8, 2007 8:01 PM | Link to this

Mollie - I’m not going into the history of the Quakers in America since the 1600’s in this post. My family has not been strictly Quaker for a number of generations. I stated that aI descend from Quakers and others who came here for religious freedom.

Many Quakers became known as “Fighting Quakers” during the Revolutionary War (especially in the Carolina’s and Virginia). That was for freedom. They were still against the institution of slavery.

Many - after the Revolutionary War - left the Monthly Meetings and became Baptists, Disciples of Christ, etc. So goes the transition and freedom of choice of religion. (That’s what my ancestors did)

As we neared the time of the Civil war - my ancestors (including the descendants of Quakers) were still against the institution of Slavery.

My comments about reparations still stand. It’s about the money.

(I also graduated from Horace Greeley High School in a town that has an active Monthly Meeting)

By Mollie

March 8, 2007 8:05 PM | Link to this

See? This is the part I don’t get. We have all these people saying everyone needs to just get over slavery - and just when it starts to make a teeny weeny bit of sense, you get someone like ol’Jimmy L. who is clearly still p** about losing the war.

So - now that we have that insight - we’ve come full circle. Do we owe decsendents of slavery an apology? Does the US owe the descendents of the white confederates an apology for stopping them from seceding?

And now you have an American flag on your SUV? See - I don’t get that.

By Mollie

March 8, 2007 8:14 PM | Link to this

Freedom of religious choice - yes.

But good heavens, the fact that you’ve appointed yourself the Ultimate Authority on Everything tells me you didn’t end up with a Quaker soul. I grew up hearing stories about my families efforts on behalf of civil right for blacks and Native Americans. Hell - Quakers invented political correctness and you so clearly denounce it. (God forbid you should worry about stomping on someone’s heart).

And please cut and paste where the proposed resolution is about reparations? If I missed that part I will politefully and like the fair and good sport I am, hand you the victory.

Anyway - Nixon was Quaker - so even Quakers aren’t perfect.

By Jimmy L. Shirley Jr.

March 8, 2007 8:22 PM | Link to this

Please feel free to offer proof of Stephens’ denouncing that speech. I’d love to see the proof. By Tony March 8, 2007 6:37 PM

Alexander Stephens, Vice President, Confederate States of America “As for my Savannah speech, about which so much has been said and in regard to which I am represented as setting forth “slavery” as the “cornerstone” of the Confederacy, it is proper for me to state that that speech was extemporaneous. The reporter’s notes, which were very imperfect, were hastily corrected by me; and were published without futher revision and with several glaring errors. The substance of what I said on slavery was, that on the points under the old Constitution out of which so much discussion, agitation, and strife between the States had arisen, no future contention could arise, as these had been put to rest by clear language. I did not say, nor do I think the reporter represented me as saying, that there was the slightest change in the new Constitution from the old regarding the status of the African race amongst us. ……………… The status of the African race in the new Constitution was left just where it was in the old; I affirmed and meant to affirm nothing else in this Savannah speech.” - Recollections of Alexander H. Stephens: His Diary kept when a prisoner at Fort Warren, New York: Doubleday, Page & Co., 1910., pp 172-174. Entry for 5 June 1866

By VaSteve

March 8, 2007 9:33 PM | Link to this

Was secession legal? Well, it was taught at West Point. Va,NY,and RI wrote it in their state constitutions which were ratified by the other states.Jeff Davis was never tried because 3,thats right,3 different Fed prosecutors refused to take the case because the facts led to one conclusion,that being secession was legal. Sorry,historical facts don’t change just because you don’t like them. And Tony, that part about states being admitted 1 to 1, slave and free. That’s not entirely true. West Va was brought in by itself in 1863,as a Union state,and a slave state.And the Yanks were fighting against slavery? Abe war crimes. Read about the Immortal 600. 600 Reb officers POW’s used as human shields to protect a Yankee fort in SC.A meeting in Geneva put a halt to it, so he had them “forced marched” without proper food,water,or medicine. Lots of them died. Abe OK’d the attacking of civilians. Houses burned,women put on trains to God knows where,literally only God knows because some never returned and there is no record,(Roswell,GA-look it up),upward of 50,000 killed. Oh yeah,he was a war criminal but the Yanks won and the South couldn’t hang him. Booth took care of that!

By MrLiberty

March 8, 2007 9:36 PM | Link to this

Shawn,

Proud valley dude, libertarian, former State Senate candidate, well-read, private school-educated guy who knows the LAPD is full of criminals and who figured out a long time ago that government IS the problem, never the solution.

California is going into the toilet thanks to government, both republican and democrat.

By Mollie

March 8, 2007 9:46 PM | Link to this

Mr Liberty - Touche! Now you’re freaking me out - you could be my brother-in-law.

OK - I bow down to a CA libertarian. I’ve never done well against you guys.

Bet you’re loving life here in in GA! You’re a freaking philosopher/visionary compared to the locals.

By Shawn

March 8, 2007 9:54 PM | Link to this

Sorry - I was looking at Mollie’s name,. That last post was from Shawn.

By buck

March 8, 2007 10:19 PM | Link to this

So, if it was ok or even good for the South to rebel against the US, is it ok for Iraq or Al Queda to do the same?

By Tony

March 8, 2007 11:01 PM | Link to this

Jimmy…..if you’re going to quote Stephens’ ‘correction’ why not go ahead and include everything. You are missing a crucial sentence that actually proves my point. It’s convenient for you to cut that one sentence out. And it is ironic that YEARS after the fact Stephens tries to ‘correct’ what had been proclaimed for years. Typical of a politician of the losing side to change his story years after the fact. Revisionist?

And Jimmy, you never touched where I point out the most crucial difference between the two constitutions was that the CSA solidified slavery and protected it for quite a long time. For all of the injustices we’re told the South was standng up against, it is strange that such a staunch move was made on something that affected so few. Very peculiar.

As for war crimes, what of the many tales of the Home Guard going around HANGING civilians who refused to go off to fight? What of the many pacifists and unionists in say northern Alabama who were persecuted, farms seized, families terrorized? I guess every southern action was noble and just and with the best of intentions?

By Tony

March 8, 2007 11:51 PM | Link to this

Homework assignment for you…read the Declaration of Causes of Secession from the following states: Georgia, Mississippi, Texas, and South Carolina. In each one of those slavery is the key term used with a few using that right off the bat. Now looking at how this comes from those in charge of defining secession for those states, let’s see the rebuttal to that.

By RNM

March 9, 2007 9:36 AM | Link to this

Thanks Tony. Just read the Declaration of Causes of Secession for Georgia. Seems pretty clear to me that the reason was for the protection of slavery since it reads, “The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection with the Government of the United States of America, present to their confederates and the world the causes which have led to the separation. For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery.” While not the only reason for secession, slavery was surely the primary reason since it’s the first thing the Declaration mentions. My family has been in Georgia since 1800 and, unfortunately, were slaveholders. Doesn’t mean they were bad people. Just means they lived in a time when bad practices were considered by some to be acceptable. Times change. People change. The reality is that it doesn’t matter WHY the war was fought or how we feel about it now. It’s in the past and can’t be changed. I reiterate that all of the energy put into this exhange would be better spent addressing modern day human trafficking. That’s something I think we can all agree is wrong and it’s something we can all help to end.

By Tony

March 9, 2007 10:34 AM | Link to this

My whole point was to clarify this misunderstanding a few people have about major causes of the civil war. I had ancestors that owned slaves, others that did not, some who were southerners and some who were from up north.

By Craig

March 9, 2007 10:43 AM | Link to this

Just to add to this, I had one line of southerners in my ancestry who were loyal Unionists. When it was safe for them to do so, they came out of hiding, joined the Union Army, and actually fought in units tied to Sherman. Another line of ancestry was on the opposite side of the March to the Sea.

I can say all of my line were southern in heritage and a few did own slaves, some were dirt poor. Some chose to remain loyal to the Union and some did not.

This does not take away from the fact that southern society was very elitist. Only the wealthy landowners/slave owners typically had the power and were in elected office. The southern economy survived on slavery. Those in charge of secession were all about self preservation. While using buzz phrases of states’ rights, you can look at the history of the US from the signing of the Constitution on to 1860 and see how slavery had a stranglehold on the nation. All of the controversial acts Congress passed were focused on slavery. States’ admission to the union were tied to slavery. Wars, such as the expansion into the West and against Mexico were fought with the notion of expansion of lands, mostly for slavery.

Many can try to deny this but it is fact. This was a driving force in government policy. Government actions were driven by the whole issue of slavery. Until people come to grips with reality, we will see this argument constantly be debated where some still deny facts and hateful mentalities continue. Seeing people’s attitudes here, this issue will not go away any time soon.

By Mollie

March 9, 2007 11:05 AM | Link to this

Good post, Craig.

I also want to point out that even though there aren’t former slaves alive today - but there are plenty of people around who lived through segregation.

And seeing the posts today - attitudes towards race have not improved mucc since then.

Until we disrupt that chain or pattern - the hard feelings will remain.

I also see that Georgians still aspire to elitism. I believe the conspicious consumption of the McMansions signals the manifest destiny attitude of many Southerners. Plus the fact that Southerners are notoriously fearful of any physical activity - as if its a sign of being poor.

By RNM

March 9, 2007 11:33 AM | Link to this

Mollie! I’ve been reading your post and have thought you have a good head on your shoulders. But the last post, ” also see that Georgians still aspire to elitism. I believe the conspicious consumption of the McMansions signals the manifest destiny attitude of many Southerners. Plus the fact that Southerners are notoriously fearful of any physical activity - as if its a sign of being poor” took me by surprise. Surely you are joking?? lol McMansions are not only found in Georgia. They are all over the nation. In my family hard work was NEVER considered something to be ashamed of. It was almost a virtue. We weren’t rich by any means, but no one ever gave any indication that to work made you look poor.

By Sal

March 9, 2007 2:56 PM | Link to this

I hope the GA governor does issue an apology. As a born and rasied southerner living in the north, I encouter so many stereotypes about southerners being dumb and racist. Whites need to stop denying that slavery happened. It doesn’t matter if you weren’t a slave owner, your ancestors were. And so the son must pay for the sins of the father. And even if your ancestors weren’t slave owners did they speak out against slavery as wrong? If not, then they are just as guilty.

By Billy Bearden

March 9, 2007 4:14 PM | Link to this

Y’all,

Whoopie! Most but not all of the entities who left the Union (secession) declared pro-slavery and the Union’s breach of contract under Constitutional Law. Yahoo!

HOWEVER….

The Confederacy formed in February 1861.

The War Between the States began in April 1861

VIOLA! 2 months of peace!

No, the war was not about slavery. Lincoln’s invasion was not to free the slaves. But his invasion did draw Va, NC, Ar, and Tennessee into the Confederacy.

Remember good people, Had the South REMAINED in the Union, the Corwin Amendment would now be the law of the land. Ohio and Illinois had already ratified it.

HOWEVER….

None of this line of dialogue has anything to do with a slavery apology.

Georgia’s current Govt was created about 1866 during reconstruction. Slavery ended in the US in Dec 1865.

The flag of New York depicts a tall masted ship representing commerce, the seal was designed in the late 1700’s, and a major commerce in New York in the 1700s was SLAVERY. The flag of Pennsylvania depicts the Coat of Arms of the Penn family. William Penn and his family dealt in SLAVERY, owned SLAVES and SOLD SLAVES. Oh, wasn’t the Penn folks QUAKERS?

Remember it was black man Anthony Johnson’s court decision that established lifetime servtitude of blacks in 1655. Blacks were dumped here by British, Dutch, and Portuguese, but yet the 11 Southern states are the sole perpetrators and instigators of the million year old institution that continues today in - AFRICA!

By Kevin

March 9, 2007 4:38 PM | Link to this

When are the Africans going to apologize for selling the slaves to the Americans? And sold them for what…money…food…clothing? No, they were sold for weapons to capture more slaves. These people were slaves when the Americans got to them. Why is that so easily forgotten? What the blacks need to do is quit using slavery as a crutch, and move forward. Only then will the heads of the NAACP have to go and get a frickin’ job instead of relying on white guilt and black hate to line their own pockets. Apparently their ancestors being slaves hasn’t held them back much, they live a better life than I do.

By Mollie

March 9, 2007 5:53 PM | Link to this

RNM - You’re right that was a low blow and ridiculously stereotypical. Had a bad day with the my Middle Georgia inlaws. I do have a tendency to project my frutration with them at the entire South. (Because they do embody a lot that is not so nice about white Southerners).

I sincerely apologize!