Political Insider

By Debbie

August 29, 2006 11:29 AM | Link to this

Those statistics are misleading. Georgia has the HOPE Scholarship and more students go to college then end up dropping out because they find out they are not college material. In other words, a greater percentage of high school students in Georgia end up taking the SAT because of Hope than in other states. A lot of those taking the SAT in Georgia do not have the financial or scholastic ability to attend college.

Most states do not have something similar to HOPE, so only those that are very intelligent or college material end up taking the SAT. In other words, only those that have the financial and scholastic ability take the SAT in most states.

By J

August 29, 2006 11:55 AM | Link to this

Sorry to rain on Debbie’s parade, but the “our scores are low because so many students take the SAT” argument doesn’t hold water (and never has). If you look at the College Board’s own information, there are 11 states with higher test-taking rates than GA. Aside from the District of Columbia, average scores in those states are either comparable to or better than Georgia.

Case in point: Massachussetts has an 85% test-taking rate, compared to 70% for Georgia, and MA kicks GA’s butt on all three sections of the test.

Let’s stop making excuses for the sub-standard education provided in many of Georgia’s schools. Until Georgia gets serious about establishing real accountability standards and (more to the point) actually enforcing those standards, nothing will change for the better. Our top elected officials should spend less time bloviating about how they’re improving education in Georgia and actually do something, for once, to make it better!

Politicians may lie, but the numbers don’t.

By J

August 29, 2006 11:57 AM | Link to this

If you want to see the numbers for yourself, go to http://www.collegeboard.com/proddownloads/about/newsinfo/cbsenior/yr2006/table3-mean-SAT-reasoning-test.pdf

By GodHatesTrash

August 29, 2006 12:13 PM | Link to this

J - good points - also we need to factor in the fact that Georgia has the highest high school dropout rate in the nation. People who aren’t even graduating high school (probably) aren’t taking the SATs. The 40% of Georgians don’t graduate high school are probably already out of the pool.

Let’s face it - we are dealing with third world conditions in Georgia - a primitive, semi-literate, superstitious populace - and a shallow gene pool…

By Billy

August 29, 2006 12:43 PM | Link to this

J — Furthermore, there shouldn’t be anyone that lacks the “scholastic ability” to go to college.

By Billy

August 29, 2006 12:49 PM | Link to this

Not if the schools are doing their jobs, that is.

By Debbie

August 29, 2006 1:17 PM | Link to this

J, how many of those states you mentioned have a scholarship program like the HOPE? Because of the HOPE, students that are not college material still take the SAT .

Georgia has been at the bottom rung for years. Perdue has raised the SAT’s in Georgia. Georgia has a high percentage of students that come from one parent households and welfare households and those students don’t traditionally do as well as those from two parent households.

By j

August 29, 2006 1:18 PM | Link to this

GHT - you’re right, I did forget to mention the horrific dropout rates in this state.

The fact is, education in Georgia is a mess, to say the very, very least.

40% of students never complete high school. Of those who do graduate and go on to college with a HOPE Scholarship, about two-thirds lose it within the first year; the evidence obviously points to lack of preparation for college-level work (from supposedly A and B students). Also, college completion and degree-holding rates in Georgia are below the national average.

Why? Two words for you: local control. Yes, we have a state department of education, but if you actually pay attention, you begin to realize that the agency does almost nothing to encourage higher standards or achievement amongst Georgia students. If anything, they tend to do the opposite - compare how Georgia students score on national assessments versus how they do on comparable state-wide assessments, and you’ll find that the former stays relatively static over time while the latter invariably gets better year after year. The logical conclusion would be that the state-administered tests are intentionally being made easier to make schools look better than they are. And the schools will go along with it, because they’d rather let everyone feel good and get A’s and B’s and be happy instead of actually doing the hard work of improving education, which is, you know, hard.

I say none of this to impeach the honest, hard work of many of Georgia’s students and teachers. Rather, local school districts are continually failing their students, and the state is enabling them by repeatedly lowering the bar and/or simply looking the other way. And it doesn’t help when the governor issues a press release that treats a 46th-place ranking in SAT scores as if it’s a good thing.

We should all be embarrassed as taxpayers and citizens that we allow this to continue. But until the populace at large actually gets serious about education (which has been a tough sell in a nation that tends towards anti-intellectualism), we’re going to be stuck with the mess we’ve let fester in front of our faces.

By J

August 29, 2006 1:34 PM | Link to this

Debbie - you’re missing the point. Your original comment was that Georgia’s scores are distorted by a high percentage of test-takers, and thus not comparable to other states that have better average scores. But I refuted that by pointing out 10 states that have higher test-taking rates and have averages at least as high, if not better, than Georgia.

The presence or lack of a statewide merit scholarship program has nothing to do with this state’s dismal performance on the SAT and just about any other standard measure of academic achievement. It simply comes down to the quality of education being provided to students.

Does HOPE cause a greater percentage of students to take the test? Almost certainly, because to get into a state college or university, you have to have an SAT score. Note I didn’t say a good SAT score - outside of the big-name schools (UGA, GT, GSU) and a few others, Georgia public institutions are essentially open enrollment. If that causes more students to take the SAT, then it simply highlights the fact that Georgia students are, on average, very poorly prepared for college.

Mr. Perdue talks a good game about improving education, but until he does something more meaningful than proscribing the amount of money to be spent “in the classroom” (which is not easily defined, by the way), he’s simply talking. Want real change? Define tough standards. Enforce them. Don’t water-down education to get pleasing statistical results. None of this happens overnight, but nobody near the gold dome seems to have a spine when it comes to standing up to local boards of education and actually making them perform for once.

BTW, the socio-economic argument doesn’t work, either. Going back to my example from before, Massachussetts: have you ever been to the Roxbury section of Boston? In terms of social ills and disadvantaged youth, it rivals some of the worst parts of Atlanta. Every state has single-parent families, crime, drugs, violence, and poverty. Using that as an excuse for providing poorer children (or any children) with a poor education is just an insult to them.

By Ed

August 29, 2006 2:19 PM | Link to this

An intersting point made here is the Hope Scholarship and the idea of free education. Could it be that the reason two thirds of students comming into college under the program fail is because they do not have a direct relationship to working for the money. If the schools are watering down grades and SAT scores are not factored in what else would you expect. Although people tout this scolarship in Georgia it is a deceptive way to raise money. Statistics show the people that can least aford to buy Lotto tickets are the ones that buy them most. Maybe schools should be tied to college prep classes for those students who really intend to take it seriously. Also point those students that do not want to attend college to vocational carreers such as auto mechanics, electrical, plumming, etc.

By Cletus

August 29, 2006 2:37 PM | Link to this

We are at the bottom for many reasons,none of them good.We can blame a lot of things,broken families, shallow gene pool,welfare, single parents,any number of things.The truth is in the classroom, thats where the rubber meets the road, the teachers. we don’t hire the best and we don’t fire the worst and we wont back up and support the ones we have.We don’t want to upset the parents so we do things that we know are not right,just to get through another without a parental confrontation. Weakness is our worst enemy,Gutless people who can’t say No school boards, princepals, teachers the whole system is weak. we don’t even have Christmas holidays any more now its a winter break,Get real you spineless worms take charge do your job.

By Debbie

August 29, 2006 3:18 PM | Link to this

J and God hates trash, I would like to see documentation of the 40% drop out rate you mentioned for Georgia and the fact Georgia leads the nation in drop outs.

The latest stats I was able to find were from 2000-2001 ans showed just a little over 7% and Georgia did not lead the nation in dropout rates.. Please enlighten us with your updated stats and provide the links.

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2004/dropout00-01/table_1.asp

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2004/dropout00-01/table_3.asp

I also stated that more students that were not college material took the SAT because of the HOPE.

Not every state has the same racial makeup, or the same social or economic makeup.

By Billy Ed

August 29, 2006 4:02 PM | Link to this

Y’all act like education improvement should be faster. Maybe. But maybe not. It’s kinda like inbreeding—takes a long time to reverse the problem. Somebody made the point that “Perdue increased the scores.” That’s horse hockey. No governor, of either party, is going to raise or lower any education score. If it was that simple, it would’ve been done decades ago. Somebody else did point out that part of the problem is the local school boards. True, they spend too much of their time getting elected by putting stickers in textbooks claiming evolution is a whole lot of hooey—all that time wasted on something that isn’t on the S.A.T. Parents, teachers, local school board, state school officials, students, nobody is putting the necessary effort into fixing the problem. Lots of blame to spread around everywhere, yes, including the students who aren’t learning anything useful while they play video games. The number-one source of motivation should come from within.

By J

August 29, 2006 4:20 PM | Link to this

Okay, I should clarify - the 40% is actually the non-completion rate, if we want to split hairs. But Georgia does a miserable job of getting students to complete high school, regardless. Georgia reports a completion rate of 63%, although the Urban Institute has estimated the completion rate to be more like 56%. Which would be the worst in the country. (An important point: NCES graduation rate data is self-reported by the states, and is basically completely worthless. The states have figured out how to exclude large numbers of dropouts from the cohort so as to look far better than they are in reality.)

It’s all in this report from The Education Trust: http://www2.edtrust.org/NR/rdonlyres/C5A6974D-6C04-4FB1-A9FC-05938CB0744D/0/GettingHonest.pdf

And, again, while I appreciate that one state is different from the next, that’s just making excuses for Georgia’s poor education system. Don’t get mad at the SAT for pointing out our (vast) educational shortcomings; get mad at the politicians and administrators (and, yes, parents) who have declined to do anything about it.

By debbie

August 29, 2006 4:54 PM | Link to this

Both of my kids went to private schools, so I am not a fan of the government education system.

I am a fan of school vouchers.

Some dropouts go on the take the GED and obtain the diploma. That is figured in some surveys. That survey you presented is based on speculation and the one I gave is based on what the states report. I would imagine the truth is somewhere in between.

Even in the stats you presented where did it say that Georgia leads the nation in dropouts?

The bottom line is in areas that have large minority populations, the dropout rates increase.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can not make him drink.

Georgia has been at the bottom for decades.

Perdcue has taken steps in the right direction. IE:Suspending the driver’s license of anyone that drops out.

The problem will not be solved by throwing more money at it.

Parents or Guardians also need to be held more accountable. Some could care less if their child gets a education or not.

By Ernest

August 29, 2006 6:08 PM | Link to this

J, good job in sharing that link. It further proves that the measures to determine graduation and/or completion rates are subject to interpretation. We can’t get a ‘single version of the truth’ making it difficult to effectively address the problem.

I travel around the country and try to engage the locals in discussions about their K-12 offerings. Without question, while they compliment the metro area for its housing affordability, they slam it and the state for the education. These perceptions impact our ability to compete for new jobs/industries to our state. Is someone paying attention to this.

By Jethro

August 29, 2006 6:21 PM | Link to this

Wow!! We jumped all the way to 46th! Let’s party!

After decades of being near the bottom of the pile you have to ask yourself why?

Don’t tell me that it’s money. We spend an obscene amount of money per pupil.

Why do those areas of the country who are near the top remain there for so long?

It’s obvious that our students are not as capable as those in other areas of the country.

It’s not politically correct to say it but it’s true.

We aren’t as smart…

By Tony

August 29, 2006 8:03 PM | Link to this

Debbie are you implying minorities are dumb and drop out? Comparing them to horses?

By Debbie

August 30, 2006 7:08 AM | Link to this

I am not saying anything. I just pointed to the statistics.

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2004/dropout00-01/table_3.asp

By Debbie

August 30, 2006 7:09 AM | Link to this

It has alot to do with parental involvement. Read the stats yourself.

Parental involvement does have an impact. Unfortunately, in most households in the high poverty areas, there are only one parent households and they are not as likely to be involved with their child’s education. http://www.ncpie.org/WhatsHappening/researchJanuary2006.html A New Wave of Evidence: The Impact of School, Family and Community Connections on Student Achievement According to this review of recent research published by the Southwest Educational Development Laboratory (2002), students with involved parents, no matter what their income or background, are more likely to: Earn higher grades and test scores, and enroll in higher-level programs Be promoted, pass their classes and earn credits Attend school regularly Have better social skills, show improved behavior and adapt well to school Graduate and go on to post-secondary education Furthermore, studies show that families of all income and education levels, and from all ethnic and cultural groups, are engaged in supporting their children’s learning at home. White, middle-class families, however, tend to be more involved at school, and to be better informed about how to help their children. Supporting more involvement at school from all families may be an important strategy for addressing the achievement gap.

http://www.nwrel.org/scpd/sirs/3/cu6.html THE ROLE OF PARENT INVOLVEMENT

Thus far, this report has focused on the effects of parent involvement on achievement and other outcomes for students in general. But what about specific populations of students, particularly those whose socioeconomic status puts them at an educational disadvantage as compared with their more fortunate peers? The nature of the parent involvement research base makes this question easier to address than it might be if it were necessary to mount all-new research efforts with disadvantaged populations. As it is, much of the general parent involvement research has been conducted with low-income, often black or Hispanic families. Sometimes this has occurred because both the parent involvement activities and the evaluations of them have been mandated as part of government-funded programs for disadvantaged children. In other cases, educators sensed the potential of parent involvement programs in poor neighborhoods, set these up, and then compared outcomes with those from other schools which are demographically similar. The first thing researchers discovered is that minority or low-income parents are often underrepresented among the ranks of parents involved with the schools. There are numerous reasons for this: lack of time or energy (due to long hours of heavy physical labor, for example), embarrassment or shyness about one’s own educational level or linguistic abilities, lack of understanding or information about the structure of the school and accepted communication channels, perceived lack of welcome by teachers and administrators, and teachers and administrators’ assumptions of parents’ disinterest or inability to help with children’s schooling.

By debbie

August 30, 2006 7:10 AM | Link to this

http://www.ncsl.org/programs/educ/PInvolve.htm

By Tony

August 30, 2006 9:49 AM | Link to this

You’re not saying anything? Let’s look at your words:

“The bottom line is in areas that have large minority populations, the dropout rates increase.”

“You can lead a horse to water, but you can not make him drink.”

By Debbie

August 30, 2006 11:14 AM | Link to this

The stats speak for themselves. I was repeating what they bear out.

By GodHatesTrash

August 30, 2006 1:24 PM | Link to this

Here’s one of the problems with vouchers - people like Debbie will be making decisions for their children on whether or not a particular school provides a decent education.

She doesn’t have the intellectual ability or educational background to make that kind of decision. What if, by some miracle, her child is of above average intelligence? The poor child would be stuck learning nonsense like the Bible and “intelligent design” and pretending that cavemen rode dinosaurs instead of information and skills that would help him/her in life.

By Tony

August 30, 2006 3:24 PM | Link to this

All vouchers do is move kids from the public school to private schools. What good does that do? Public money being made available to private schools means private schools have to abide by state conditions, essentially making them public.

By Kyle

August 30, 2006 4:59 PM | Link to this

No one mentions this article is misleading in another way. You really can’t compare Ga to ND in SAT’s, for instance. In ND in 03’, only 191 students took the SAT and scored #1 (but the ACT’s scored #25!). Comparing 191 ND to 56,000 Ga students is just uninformed and silly. The first (collegeboard) link specifically hints at that, see the note at the top of the Scores by state chart.

www.sreb.org/main/Publications/pubs/GeorgiaNot50th.pdf

Not to excuse Ga schools, I went K-12 here and it wasn’t pretty.

By Allison

August 31, 2006 2:34 PM | Link to this

Why have none of you parents/adults asked me a high school student about any of this SAT stuff? Have you ever taken the SAT? Well if not let me explain the new one. We have to sit in a really uncomfortable room for almost six hours taking a ridiculous test which even I was suprised I wasn’t ready for. Now I still did very well I made 80%. But the information they were looking for was really a test of IQ not reasoning. I know plenty of kids in my school with a 4.0 who didn’t do well on the SAT because they either weren’t taking a math during the period of the test or they just don’t do well with tests. You don’t have to score well on the SAT to prove that you’re smart or not. You people look at the SAT as if it were the be all and end all of our knowledge. So please don’t insult teens by saying that we’re unintelligent due to some stupid test made up by people who think they know what we should know. Further more if you want to look at someone to blame for the low SAT scores then look at the parents. Because parents who care are kids who care. The school can’t teach you they can only give you the tools to teach yourself. So stop blaming the school for your mess ups.

By Debbie

August 31, 2006 3:05 PM | Link to this

God hates trash, I will match my IQ against yours any day of the week. I scored 33 on the ACT, how did you do?

By Tony

August 31, 2006 4:20 PM | Link to this

I never knew the ACT was an IQ test…

By John C. Fremont

August 31, 2006 6:01 PM | Link to this

Hey—this Debbie writer thinks 33 is really something on the ACT. Give me a break! I think she said she was size 5 or something to that effect too once. This writer needs to get a life—maybe there is hope for her back in Alabama or Louisiana. Her responses are pathetic. I am ashamed to be in the same Republican Party with her. Is she a desperate housewife/computer programer or something? She sounds like a robot.

By GodHatesTrash

August 31, 2006 6:41 PM | Link to this

Debbie, since I went to an Ivy for my undergraduate degree I didn’t bother with the ACT. My composite SAT score, my GRE score, and my Miller Analogies scores all indicate a higher IQ than your 33 ACT.

My SAT, the lowest of the group, equates to an 34 ACT. Sorry.

By John C. Fremont

August 31, 2006 7:24 PM | Link to this

Any woman who would describe herself “size 5” on a blog is a woman in desperation. Makes you kinda wonder how many husbands Debbie has had too?

By Grady L. Cornish

August 31, 2006 9:47 PM | Link to this

Gov. Perdue Didn’t Improve our Edcucation System

“A recently released Gov. Perdue re-election campaign ads says,” for too long no-one did anything about education, but Sonny did…test scores are up, class sizes are down, better pay for teachers, and a billion dollars have been invested in education.”

Recently released SAT performance numbers put Georgia dead last in math, 45th in reading, and 41st in writing. According to an Associated Press report, Perdue crows about the fact that Georgia’s overall SAT rank is now 46th in the nation, putting it ahead of Florida, South Carolina, Pennsylvania and Hawaii. The fact of the matter is that the improved SAT ranking is largely attributed to factoring in a new writing section into the overall ranking equation.

The minimum class size law referenced in the ad just took effect July 1, 2006, and beginning October 1 teachers will start receiving their first salary increase since Perdue became Governor three years ago. Contrary to the claim Sonny did not invested in our education system, he has cut funding to the tune of a billion dollars.

It is also worth noting that Georgia’s gas tax has increased from second lowest in the nation in 2002 to the top 20 today. Since Sonny has been Governor there also have been other tax increases in the form of unfunded mandates passed on to local governments, e.g., the local costs for a 4 percent pay raise approved for teachers and a law requiring schools to reduce minimum class sizes. Impact of the minimum class size law is best illustrated in the case of Clarke County. In the upcoming year it will cost Clarke County about $6.6 million to satisfy requirements of the minimum class size law. According to James Simms, executive director of district services for the Clarke County School District, the county is going to get only $3.1 of that amount, leaving local taxpayers to pay for the other $3.5 million. Plainly and simply, Sonny didn’t.

By Philly

September 1, 2006 8:28 AM | Link to this

John Fremont, anyone that calls himself John Fremont is not too good himself. You hate Debbie because she is conservative, articulate and intelligent. I would bet you don’t like Coulter either. You have a problem with strong women that don’t agree with your viewpoint.

The reason Deb describe herself as a size 5 is because a poster said she was fat and over weight. Then, it is clear you don’t let a little thing like facts get in your way.

Get a life and get rid of that rather large chip on your shoulder, you are becoming boring

By Philly

September 1, 2006 8:34 AM | Link to this

God h ates trash, you are the typical liberal elitist. I would not have guessed from your postings of you so called test scores. Then anyone can claim anything on here can’t they?

I enjoy Debbie’s postings much more than yours. She cuts through the bs and gets straight to the point.

Anyone that makes bleeding heart liberals such as yourself mad is pretty good in my book.

John, if you are a Republican, then I am a bleeding heart Democrat..You are a disgrace and your postings seethe with anger. Seek help

By Tony

September 1, 2006 10:38 AM | Link to this

If Debbie is articulate then Mark Taylor is anorexic. All she can do is copy and paste other peopl’s ideas and repeat what others tell her to say. She is the parrot of politics. Philly, I enjoy her posts in a completely different manner. She’s definitely entertaining. As for cutting through the BS, I’d say she piles it on thicker than anyone I know.

Philly, I’m glad to hear you admit what you truly are. We’ve moved beyond denial to acceptance. Can you keep going to the next step?

By John C. Fremont

September 1, 2006 10:50 AM | Link to this

MR. Philly—I am an ole school Eisenhower-Rockefeller African American diehard REPUBLICAN who refused to switch parties when many others of my ethnicity did in the 1950’ and 60’s. No I am no disgrace nor do I have a problem except with ditto heads like this person who posts as Debbie!

By KL

September 5, 2006 2:15 PM | Link to this

I totally agree ‘actually enforcing those standards’.

We got ‘Honors’ program at some middle schools, some kids almost failed on last semeter, were still at ‘Honors’ program this year; some kids got A+ on last year were put in non-honors program. Some 7th/8th kids took SAT got 500+, were in NON-TAG (TAG is a gifted program), but some got 400- on SAT were in TAG program, asked why ? the school said, we do not count SAT at middle school…they only see ‘state gifted’, whatever ‘national gifted’ is not in our ‘system’ !