Duluth.Talk

By D

June 9, 2006 07:58 AM | Link to this

The Mill Creek Student does not have to attend the alternative school. He has been suspended for the semester and can stay at home for the semester. He made a stupid choice and there is a consequence. It may be harsh, but he was aware of the rules and chose to break the rules anyway. There are always consequences for breaking the rule. He should be thankful that the alternative school exists so he doesn’t fall behind academically while serving his suspension from Mill Creek.

By Skozoze

June 9, 2006 08:01 AM | Link to this

Can you imagine “zero tolerance” in the real world? Get a speeding ticket? Sorry, you’re license is suspended and you’re going to jail. A day late on that report at work - pack your desk and get out of here. In the real world, people are usually given a chance - you acknowledge your mistakes, you talk about them - maybe pay the fine or get a “note on your HR record”, but you rarely pay such a price as what schools are exacting. How about we treat school administrators and teachers with zero tolerance - one mistake and they’re out of here! Missed a mistake on my kid’s spelling test - sorry, you’re fired! Your letter home to the parents had a typo - move on! You’re exactly right - everybody needs to use a little more common sense.

By Dismayed

June 9, 2006 08:05 AM | Link to this

The single biggest contributor to the absurdity, which runs rampant in public schools, is the government is running them, common sense doesn’t apply.

The feds use financial incentives to manipulate states into behaving in a desired manner. The states school systems are helpless to avoid manipulation because they fail to hold people accountable for the constant financial blunders and fraudulent activities occurring with alarming frequency within the system. In addition to robbing our children of needed resources, the lack of accountability allow the feds to dictate policy where they don’t have legal authority to. If we actually had people who new how to manage and eliminate the vast waste of resources, maybe they would have the ability to tell the feds to take a flying leap.

Our states school system sadly, is also government…so why should we expect them to do anything, which makes sense. Therefore, suspension of kids for having a GI Joe gun (one inch long) in their book bag will continue.

Zero tolerance, zero sense.

(Maybe we should put the school system in charge of the criminal justice department.)

By Dismayed

June 9, 2006 08:06 AM | Link to this

The single biggest contributor to the absurdity, which runs rampant in public schools, is the government is running them, common sense doesn’t apply.

The feds use financial incentives to manipulate states into behaving in a desired manner. The states school systems are helpless to avoid manipulation because they fail to hold people accountable for the constant financial blunders and fraudulent activities occurring with alarming frequency within the system. In addition to robbing our children of needed resources, the lack of accountability allow the feds to dictate policy where they don’t have legal authority to. If we actually had people who new how to manage and eliminate the vast waste of resources, maybe they would have the ability to tell the feds to take a flying leap.

Our states school system sadly, is also government…so why should we expect them to do anything, which makes sense. Therefore, suspension of kids for having a GI Joe gun (one inch long) in their book bag will continue.

Zero tolerance, zero sense.

(Maybe we should put the school system in charge of the criminal justice department.)

By Dismayed

June 9, 2006 08:16 AM | Link to this

Sorry for the double post, the web page displayed an error and I didn’t know it went through the first time.

So who will be suspended, me or the sites web master?

By Joe Camp

June 9, 2006 08:19 AM | Link to this

As a father with three kids in the school system, with another to follow, I insist on zero tolerance.

I agree in theory that a call to a parent should be sufficient to resolve matters. If I get a call from a teacher, I leave this office immediately and drive to school to administer swift and sure punishment commensurate with the misbehavior. However, there are many parents who are incompentent or unwilling to do what needs to be done and cannot manage their children.

Therefore, I believe that a zero tolerance stance must be taken by our school administrators. A belt buckle shaped like a gun?? Please, that child needs his a$$ whipped in addition to the well deserved suspension.

Furthermore, these policies are more in line with “real life” than you might imagine. Bring a weapon or make threatening comments in this workplace and you will be fired. Threatening comments here will also earn a trip to jail (threatening comments construed as a threat constitute the crime of “assault” under the Official Code of Georgia).

I’d rather see 1,000 cases of harsh punishment than 1 case of some little sociopath spraying a school with gunfire. By the way, south Fulton and City of Atlanta schools routinely allow fights and threats to permeate the school experience. The result? See the article in today’s A.J.C. about the continued problems with courthouse security. These little sociopaths bud into full grown killers and thugs with a thirst for blood and no respect for the law. I do not want my community to degenerate in such a manner.

By Dismayed

June 9, 2006 10:18 AM | Link to this

Joe Camp, I think your missing the point, which I believe is that common sense needs to be applied to each circumstance. Whatever really goes on at school I’m sure is rarely if ever accurately depicted in the media. I agree I wouldn’t want my kids wearing a belt buckle shaped like a gun. BUT, this is America we are suppose to be free to express ourselves any way we see fit as long as in doesn’t infringe on the rights of others. So, if the kid was being disruptive and using his belt buckle to do so, then the punishment is fair. If he wasn’t being disruptive and someone just happened to notice his belt buckle and told on him, then I believe common sense should prevail.

Does he need his a$$ whipped, come back to reality Joe. Just because you don’t approve of it doesn’t mean you get to force your presumptive “righteousness” on everyone who doesn’t agree with you. You sound pretty shallow.

Policy should be followed and I understand precedence all to well, but the policy is where the problem lies. The zero tolerance policy is handcuffing our schools and not allowing them to use common sense. I’m sure fear of law suits and loss of Federal funding has a lot to do with how the policy is written. But still, the policy the courts allowing frivolous law suits which help create such policies, federal manipulations into state affairs and people who want a kids “a$$ whipped” because they don’t approve of their accessories are all absurd.

Somewhere there has to be a level of good judgment used by our teachers and administrators.

Examples of stupidity;

Boy scout gets to school remembers he has a boy scout knife in his book bag and goes to the office as soon as he gets off the bus and explains to the principle what happened. He’s expelled for the rest of the year.

Second grader has one-inch long GI Joe gun in his book bag. Two-week suspension.

Cheerleader brings a battery operated bubble maker shaped like a cartoon gun, yellow and pink, to use during a cheer they were developing. Two-week suspension.

The list of stupidity is endless. All the previous examples are actual events, not from this state, but real.

I don’t blame the teachers and principles, they should follow policy, it’s the morons who set up this type of irrational policy that needs to get a job in the private sector making the $8 they are deserving of.

By me

June 9, 2006 10:29 AM | Link to this

The reason “stupid rules” are made and followed is because of “stupid parents” who object to their little darlings being disciplined and sue anybody for anything.

By LG

June 9, 2006 10:31 AM | Link to this

As a mother of a son who was a victim of in-school violence twice this year by two different offenders, I applaud zero tolerance.

My neighbor is a 6th grade teacher. Last semester he got a new student - the kid was 16 years old and just got out of jail for armed robbery. I really wouldn’t want him bringing in anything that looked like a weapon.

It’s a whole different world out there that our kids have to grow up in. If a Tweety Bird key chain has to be unlawed so be it. I want my kids safe.

By Teaching in the Fray

June 9, 2006 10:40 AM | Link to this

As a teacher in a public high school, I find hard to believe every time a student “doesn’t know” and the parents “aren’t aware” of our policies (absurd though they may be). We are required to spend 20 to 30 minutes a day during the first week reading the schools discipline policy, rules and regulations to our students. This is high school! Then, we collect signed consent forms stating that the parents and students have read and agree to abide by these rules.

When will parents be held accountable for bringing up their children? When will people realize that 1) it is not the job of the teacher to raise the child and 2) with no child left behind and the GPS, we have no time to do it anyway?

Do I agree with all the policies that are in place? No, some are absurd. But when parents start raising their children to make good decisions, we won’t have to put these rules in to try and raise them in 50 minute chunks a day.

By Dismayed

June 9, 2006 10:45 AM | Link to this

As a father of four girls, (all in school) I want my kids safe too. But if people believe the current Zero tolerance policy is necessary for safety, they are clueless.

“By me”, got it right.

It’s just sad.

By K

June 9, 2006 10:54 AM | Link to this

This kind of bureaucratic stupidity is a significant part of why I’m not planning to have kids. Seriously. I’m not a good teacher, so I wouldn’t be able to prepare them well with home schooling, and I’m not willing to put up with the invasive meddling of the current school environment. I salute any parents who are willing to jump through the school’s administrative hoops.

A good friend of mine who is a wonderful mother was called up for review by a board because her children had excessive absences due to illness. The children are young, and both suffer from ADD, so the mother put the doctor’s excuses in little badge holders around their necks so the teacher could collect them. The teacher didn’t, for whatever reason, and so my friend got called in for unexcused absences!

Until the balance is restored, no kids for me, and I’d bet that I’m not alone. It’s not the only reason, but it’s definitely a factor.

By Junior

June 9, 2006 10:55 AM | Link to this

By me and teaching are both right. Yes, parents need to be held accountable. Absolutely, without question, unequivocally. No, it’s not a teacher’s job to raise kids. Zero-tolerance is a simple answer to a complex problem, and they rarely work.

By K

June 9, 2006 11:01 AM | Link to this

One more thing: to those who are so willing to trade logic for the illusion of safety, I offer a famous quote from one of the founders of our country:

“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” - Benjamin Franklin

They had guns in Ben Franklin’s day, too. In my opinion, suspending kids for keychains and bubble blowers in no way prepares them for the realities of the world.

By gawon

June 9, 2006 11:03 AM | Link to this

Joe and Teaching in the Fray .. you have nailed it on the head and I think Bill did too. When are PARENTS going to raise their kids. They make them but won’t raise them. We can all lay down and have fun but when it comes to the hard stuff (raising kids) too many run or hand it off to someone else. I agree with some of the rules but a convicted robber should not be in a class room of children. He did an adult crime he is an adult now. His PARENTS if he has any need to figure out how to get him into a school or system that is designed to teach him as an adult. It is a different time and day but I am still afraid of making my parents mad and keep in mind that every thing I do they somehow find out. Kids today for the most part do not have that they are “best friends” with their parents… Give me a break someone has to be in control and most of the time it is the little BRAT.

By LG

June 9, 2006 01:24 PM | Link to this

Ben Franklin wanted to give some of the new country’s freedoms away in order to get France to join the Revolutionary War. The French wanted to dictate how the country was formed. So, that quote from Ben is totally hypocritical.

Isn’t it amazing that thousands of kids make it through Gwinnett schools without getting suspended? Reading is fundamental. Read the rules and abide by them. Don’t think that’s too much to ask any kid.

By Bob Horton

June 9, 2006 02:39 PM | Link to this

“Zero Tolerence” always translates to “Zero Intelligence.” Why do we pay principals high salaries and then refuse to allow them to make the simplest of decisions using their own common sense? If they are not competent enough to make such decisions, replace them. The school system should set guidelines and allow their administrators to adapt those guidelines to the situations they face.

By D

June 9, 2006 02:53 PM | Link to this

The only problem is if the county sets guidelines, then allow principals to adapt them, what is the purpose of the guideline to begin with? The toy gun in question looked real when I saw it on TV. It could have caused a real problem had someone not known it was a toy.

By K

June 9, 2006 03:20 PM | Link to this

LG, Ben’s political maneuvering doesn’t change the truth inherent in the quote.

Amazing that thousands make it through without getting suspended? Not really. There are a lot of “sheeple” out there who don’t question the status quo, they just nod and get by. Indeed, I find it somewhat interesting that several of these challenge cases involve students with good grades or no previous history of misconduct (the case of the valedictorian in Texas comes to mind).

It’s easy enough to read the rules and abide by them, but what of the justice of the rule? What of the critical thinking skills to determine whether or not the rule was created with a good and valid intent? What of the ability to reason and use good judgment? A school could have a rule that no one could wear the color blue, but that doesn’t necessarily make it a good or sensible rule.

I’d rather see the teachers and principals have a little bit of leeway than have to enforce one-size-fits-none rules that are imposed upon them. Yes, there are good teachers and bad, but it seems to me that we didn’t have any problems like these when I was in school, and we didn’t have a silly zero-tolerance policy.

By Rob

June 9, 2006 04:26 PM | Link to this

Zero tolerance is a lazy person’s solution to problems. It takes just as much time to administer discipline that fits the crime than to just suspend everyone for every little infraction. I belt buckle shaped like a gun will do no more harm that a buckle with no gun. This student did not have a real gun. We live in the South, for crying out loud. Pictures and represntations of guns are commonplace in this culture.

By JD

June 9, 2006 04:30 PM | Link to this

Let’s face it, there are a lot of stupid parents in Gwinnett who have more money than common sense. They think the “rules” apply to everyone except them and they pass this misdirected thinking down to their children. If you don’t like zero tolerence, tell you state representative. Our government can correct anything that they mess up if the public will force them to do so. Don’t blame the school board or the teachers. After all, they are just following the “rules”.

By JD

June 9, 2006 04:35 PM | Link to this

For Rob:

where do you draw the line. Remember, a picture is worth a thousand words. And those words become action.

By Mike

June 9, 2006 04:47 PM | Link to this

Zero tolerence translates to zero brains from school officals. It’s just another bi product of the poor job they have been doing.

By Steve

June 9, 2006 04:54 PM | Link to this

Intolerance will not be tolerated!

By jaison

June 9, 2006 06:19 PM | Link to this

this is a tried and true loser. Zero tolerance is a stupid idea. What is really going on in our schools would appal you. “zero tolerance” means zero tolerance for what the teachers and staff DO see. What they dont would cause the collapse of the entire school system. I went to school during the hayday of the zero tolerance policy, and frankly it did not inhibit the sales of drugs ON CAMPUS by students sometimes even to TEACHERS on a regular basis. for those who want examples this happened at duluth high school in the year 1998, I and about 7 others were regular eyewitnesses. The offender graduated with a college prep seal in 1999. He has never been booked on anything and continues to sell illicit substances to this very day in new york. The ignorant thing about the school system is that some people think zero tolerance is the answer, like that jackass up a few posts. The point is its not. Its a bi-product of stupid people in a position of decision making. These are the same people who swerve off the road in a light rain and vote democrat. In conclusion, zero tolerance is the impotent, bastard son of about 400 complete idiots. insted of post on blogs why dont you get out there and bust some a* on these morons running our schools. I hear school reform, school policy changes, but i see nothing done about what plagues it the most: Stupid, inept, rude and arrogant teachers and staff who have absolutely no right being near young minds.

By JD

June 9, 2006 06:39 PM | Link to this

Well jaison, I’m glad you got it all figured out. Please tell all of us how to fix the problem and why didn’t you call the police when you saw the drug deal going down? Sounds to me like you might be one of the “morons” you talk about.

By Art

June 9, 2006 06:46 PM | Link to this

If parents are too stupid to think about what their devil spawns are taking to school, saying in school or doing at school, then they too should be subject to zero tolerance. Off with their heads! They’re empty anyway.

By Sara

June 9, 2006 09:33 PM | Link to this

I’m just glad I’m out of grade school. I did plenty of things I probably should have been suspended over - such as leaving campus without permission, engaging in illicit and illegal behaviours whilst on campus - all the while maintaining a nearly perfect GPA, taking two languages, and playing three instruments. Just because kids are smart or never got in trouble before doesn’t make them immune from arseing up and doing stupid things.

I’m just glad I never got caught [well, OK, there was that one time, and I got Saturday detention for it. You can bet I never pulled that one again!]

Public school was a joke. I was one of those smart, talented kids who did what she wanted to do when she wanted to do it because she felt entitled. I wish I’d had a few more kicks in the rear to help me to realise that talent or not, I was not and am not above the law.

I’ve gotten that message. The Real World [as in the actual life experience — not the crummy show] has knocked me upside the head and across the arse enough times such that I know I’m no better or worse than anyone else. It doesn’t matter how good an excuse I have or how well I did last week or how cute I look when I smile — my boss/the traffic cop/the bill collector etc. don’t give a toss. What matters is me using common sense and doing what I need to be doing to function as a responsible adult.

My parents were too busy hitting the crack pipe to drill this lesson into me and the school system was mostly fooled by how ‘scholarly’ I seemed to be to attempt to deliver the lesson, either, and besides — it wasn’t really the system’s job. So I’m teaching myself those lessons now by much trial and laughable error, but it’s better late than never.

It’s like CSNY sang — “Teach your children well.” It’s not a joke, parents. And school systems, don’t be fooled by how stellar a child looks on paper.

I’m 25, and trying to make a decent go of things with my life. I just pray it’s not too late to somewhat undo the years I deferred common sense for entitlement and idiocy.

To answer the question directly — I don’t have an answer. Zero tolerance is harsh, and sometimes overdone and idiotic, but I bet there will come a more resilient adult on the other end of things, later down the line.

By Bryan

June 10, 2006 01:42 AM | Link to this

And this would be why my kids go to private school.

I would walk to work and eat one meal a day before I would have my kids educated by the government and the Teachers Unions.

By Mystified

June 10, 2006 08:15 AM | Link to this

Idiots who like the zero tolerance idea were probably educated at a government school. Therefore, they have no ability to understand why anyone would think otherwise. Lemmings, the world is full of them asking, “You want fries wit dat?”, then pushing a button with a PICTURE of french fries, because most of them cannot read or use basic rational thought. Ask them to give you change and they have to look at the screen to tell them what to do. The same thing goes on evey day in public schools. The model is broken and cannot be fixed. A new solution must take its place and that doesn’t include giving more money to the broken public system.

By D.Nelson

June 10, 2006 08:20 AM | Link to this

Parent to Parent Enough is enough, I agree….why not make the parents aid in responsibility? We have all kinds of problems and one thing that could help is to assign parents at the beginning of the school year to ride the bus…not all the time, just twice a year, and surely EVERY parent could have 2 days they could dedicate to help to raise little Johnny or Suzie. On the schoolbound route they would search each child as they entered the bus-for the “ZERO-TOLERANCE” items and if found then little Johnny has to go back home or have a parent called immediately. The bus parents-2 at a time on each bus- will also help control the noise and disrespect that occurs on the bus. I would be more than happy to do that for my children!(as well as for the bus driver, the teachers and school administration) Come on parents! Jump on board…the BUS!!!

By C.M.German

June 10, 2006 08:25 AM | Link to this

I worked and sent my children to a private school even though we all had to do without some things to get the job done. There’s no such thing as “Public Education” in this country. It’s more like government indoctrination classes where they teach everything from how to smoke crack to how to become sheeple.

Yes! Parents should be responsible for their children’s education but how can they when their own education was corrupted by the public system. Only a few survive the system with enough common sense intact to realize the damage public schools can do to a young and vulnerable person. Where is it going to end? What will become of the USA?

CM

By StuB

June 10, 2006 10:11 AM | Link to this

This is one of the main reason’s we homeschool our kids. Lack of common sense in so many areas of school. The funny thing is that a kid can bully another kid but if an adult hasn’t witnessed it, it didn’t happen (or if an athlete did it, the weaker child must have misunderstood) “BUT” a kid brings a tweety bird key chain to school, it’s a little big, and get’s suspended. Give me a break. I got tired of trying to convince the school to use common sense. Better use of my time to make sure my kids are educated.

By Bill Allen

June 10, 2006 11:35 AM | Link to this

Great comments from everyone! This one has been sticking in my craw for a while. I cannot stress enough the importance of parental involvement in the lives of their children, and intheir participation of the schools. There will always be those who create problems, who don’t care, who fail to provide their children with the fundamental necessities with which to productively participate in society. Zero tolerance means that they win. I think that we are better than that. I think those of us who do care, who are responsible and who want our children to succeed can come up with a much better solution than what we have now. It begins with a conversation. This is a good one.

By nana

June 10, 2006 01:37 PM | Link to this

http://www.rachelscott.com/ColumbineRedemption/Congressional.htm

By Cletus Snow

June 10, 2006 03:24 PM | Link to this

It’s obvious that rules are needed, but so is common sense.In newton county we had a teacher who was teacher of the year a time or two.Was in the system for four to five years,Turns out all of his credentials were forged.I’m glad he wasn’t a child molester.Now thats zero tolerance.What we need is zero tolerance for teachers having sex with thier students.I’m pretty sure that if the schools would get thier house in order,we would find the students would shape up.They need worthy examples at home and at school.

By pitbull

June 10, 2006 09:11 PM | Link to this

Have you ever had a conversation with a school administrator? The applicants with common sense are weeded out before the administration jobs are filled. As for the teachers, many of them need to grow up worse than their students do.

By Charles H. Atkinson

June 10, 2006 11:25 PM | Link to this

Zero tolerance has been applied in every situaton imaginable, always with stupid results. MARTA has it and arrested a man for selling a token because he was trying to be helpful to another person who couldn’t buy a token from the broken vending machine. Minority students, with Black students lead the listing, are the overwelming victims of Zero tolerance policies in public schools and also have the highest drop-out rate…, think there may be a correlation? Foreign students laugh at our public schools and excel in them because we are so far behind the world standards. And we pay premium prices for this broken system, with no alternatives to choose from. We need to get a much better value for what we pay from our government.

By Jennifer

June 10, 2006 11:42 PM | Link to this

You people are crazy if you think private school is the solution. I went to private school. The drugs were even more rampant (because of the definite perception and often reality of wealth). Teen preggos just sort of disappeared so that the rest of the kids didn’t know about them (until they grew up and ran into those teen preggos as adults).

After all my private schoolin I ended up okay. I am now employed after recieving a Masters degree.

My husband went to public school. After all that, he ended up with a PhD and a good academic job.

So, in my opinion, it’s not whether schools are public or private, but whether or not you as a parent get involved. And that only happens more often in private schools because the parents are more educated.

As for zero tolerance….the whole alcohol thing….I’m Catholic. We drink wine at Mass. Wouldn’t that mean that my kid would be automatically suspended for underage drinking?

Or how about…I grew up drinking a glass of red wine every Sunday for the big Sunday dinner. This started when I was about 9. It was part of the Italian Catholic culture I grew up in.

And zero tolerance would have told my parents that zero tolerance was stronger than my own parents in having a say on how to raise me.

Now, THAT’S BS!

By GAPeachTeacher

June 11, 2006 03:26 AM | Link to this

Joe Camp, you are the MAN !!! As a teacher in a public charter school with an ‘alleged’ zero tolerance policy, I wish more parents were like you. It sickens me that we have so many hoodlums and derelects under the age of 10 within our schools!!! These children obviously have no one that gives a crap at home, therefore their ignorant actions go unpunished. I feel that as educators, we are doing a disservice to our students, ourselves and the future of our communities to follow the sperm donor & incubator’s lead and ignore the problem. Someone’s got to put their foot down, or up their behinds!! ZERO TOLERANCE IS THE ONLY WAY TO MAINTAIN ORDER!!

By mike

June 11, 2006 10:29 AM | Link to this

What did you do- censor my comments? Can’t handle the truth,hunh?

By mike

June 11, 2006 10:43 AM | Link to this

Sorry, Boss, it is cheating for people who use killer alcohol to call users of far less dangerous marijuana criminals. And Bush did stole the election in Florida for his brother with the bogus felons list, just for starters. And the country was BUILT on stealing from Native Americans and Afro-Americans. So cheating is as American as violence.

By mike

June 11, 2006 10:53 AM | Link to this

And why is the MSM (tilting right this time) not reporting on Robert Kennedy Jr’s exhaustive report on Ohio Secretary of State Blackwell’s many tactics to suppress the Democrat vote in 2004. Some of what he says is suggestive but not conclusive, but much of it is beyond dispute. Read the report, or a thorough report on all the problems in Florida in 2004, and wonder how Americans feel about cheating when it really counts.

By Linda

June 11, 2006 10:55 AM | Link to this

Rules are rules and rules have been broken. Come on. With all the publicity about anything that resembles a gun or weapon being AGAINST school rules, someone didn’t listen or “pushed the system”. Yes, the student should be suspended.
He broke the rules. I do believe it is in the student handbook. He knew. Zero tolerance is a must for our children to be protected. no matter who you are or what you are.

By Nique

June 11, 2006 11:03 AM | Link to this

I have mixed feelings regarding “zero tolerance”. I think the problem is the schools in some cases allow it to become an excuse for not applying common sense to EACH situation. My daughter was subjected to the most UNBELIEVABLE example of zero tolerance I have seen.

Students were required to bring their “Friday Folders” (folders of the weeks work that are broght home each Friday) back to school Monday morning. Those that forget or do not return it have their recess time revoked for each day it is not returned.

OK, so I know the rule, my daughter knows the rule. The Friday folder contained some work that I wanted to review with the teacher in a scheduled conference for the following Tuesday. So on Monday I sent a signed note stating that I had kept the Friday folder and would bring it to our conference.

Guess what? She lost recess for TWO days because she did not return the folder, and YES the teach got the note Monday morning. We were told that it is a zero tolerance rule “no folder, no recess” and that the note did not excuse it.

That is BEYOND ridiculous and usurped MY authority as her parent.

The teacher used the zero tolerance as an excuse not to have to THINK and apply common sense to her situation. As a parent I told the teacher that if my child lost recess AGAIN because of the teachers failure to have any sense, I would appear AT the school, remove her from class and take her to the playground myself.

The problem is we take REAL sensical rules to the extreme. What happened to each child as an individual and dealing with each problem applying the rules and a LITTLE common sense?

By Glenn W.

June 11, 2006 11:04 AM | Link to this

My son brought a crappy little dull knife with his lunch to cut his orange because he had loved oranges but hated trying to pry them open.

At the time, he was one of the top middle-school students, and he never got into fights with anyone. Despite all the testimonials, he was suspended for two weeks, was charged with two juvenile felonies, and we spent the next six months in and out of the courts, the Judge gave him a canned “scared straight” speech as if he had committed rape, he had to do counseling and a ton of community service and was on probation for 2 years. Meanwhile, we had to attend groups where we ran into even more horrifying stories, such as a family who had already spent thousands of dollars on attornies because a classmate said their daughter had threatened her.

His grades tanked, his motivation to learn ended, he stopped working, and he did not graduate.

The law says that kids his age are not adults, cannot drive, cannot marry, cannot drink, cannot vote, and cannot enter into legally binding contracts. Yet they are given accountabilities beyond those of adults in Zero-tolerance situations. This for kids who regularly forget jackets on buses and don’t know the most basic things about life, like don’t reach for an electric radio from a bathtub. As parents you teach common sense and you can’t get to everything, no matter how vigilant you are. And you tend to miss the things that are so different from the lessons you learned growing up.

These rules and laws are draconian. They treat kids as cruelly as they were treated in Dickensian England. Even if the rules of society make the individual expendable, remember, these are still kids.

Thank you for writing this.

By Davey Bob

June 11, 2006 11:45 AM | Link to this

Zero tolerance is a lazy policy. How is it we don’t teach students that in the world we are preparing them for, there are shades of grey? Why do we ban Malcolm X shirts instead of using them as to teach about conflict resolution, and about sensitivity to the feelings we stimulate in others?

I worry that the kids who grow up in a zero tolerance zone will think that everything in the world has to be just one way to be right - that variation is wrong.

By Lynn

June 11, 2006 12:03 PM | Link to this

Amen! Halleluia! What a refereshing thought! Put common sense back into the classroom. As a veteran teacher, this is the one thing that is being continually denied and deleted as the government continues to shove NCLB down the throats of those who are trying to explain the real world of children to them.

By mike

June 11, 2006 01:59 PM | Link to this

Aside from the issue of overreaction, forcing kids who misbehave to NOT go to school doesn’t sound right to me. They could easily learn the wrong lessons from that. If they seriously misbehave, separate them from the regular classroom, but be very thoughtful how you treat children at such high risk of failure, and violence behavior. Suspension is a one size fits all policy for the children who most need careful individual evaluation and help. I guess a lot of people prefer the punitive approach in Georgia, though.

By Another Mike

June 11, 2006 02:17 PM | Link to this

Zero tolerance did nothing to stop the Columbine massacre. Zero tolerance didn’t help any of the seven people killed in the school at Red Lake High School. Zero tolerance and the expulsion ( for possessing a handgun at school) of Kip Kinkel did nothing to prevent him from returning to the school, killing two and wounding another twenty five in 1998. While we are safe from that villainous child who wore a belt buckle “that looked like a gun”, a zero tolerance policy somehow missed Charles Williams who opened fire in Santee California killing 2 and wounding thirteen. Zero tolerance at it’s best protected our kids from a girl with a butter knife, and a Boy Scout with a forgetful mind, yet it did nothing to stop or even slow down a troubled 16 year old with a pump shotgun in Alaska. I’d like to see the hard statistics about how many lives have been saved, how many fights have been stopped and how many racial and gang incidents have been prevented by zero tolerance policies. I’ll bet it’s a lot easier to find the statistics of young lives ruined by the overzealous and thoughtless application of “zero tolerance - zero intelligence”

Zero tolerance is yet one more ill conceived, ineffectual quick-“fix” to an poorly defined problem, the culture of youth vilonce. Like most of these social quick fixes, it does far more damage than it prevents.

By Bryan

June 11, 2006 02:35 PM | Link to this

“Zero Tolerance” is just another policy supported by the NEA Teachers Union to make absolutely certain that teachers do not have to actually think on their own.

But I dont envy them. Especially not in cities like Atlanta.

Why dont we attack the CAUSE of the problem rather than the SYMPTOMS. Childhood violence is like a rash - something is causing it that needs to be treated.

In this case, the cause of these out of control kids, is poor parenting. As long as we have a culture of “baby’s mommas” who, despite having kids, are still spending their weekends at the clubs and absent fathers more concerned with scoring dope than raising their kids, this trend is only going to get worse.

By Leslie

June 11, 2006 03:02 PM | Link to this

Personally, I feel sorry for the school administrators. These parents who are crying “common sense” are the same parents who would be screaming racism, sexism, classism, elitism, or just plain unfair if there was any wiggle room to play with. School officals get blamed for over reacting when it’s your child but blasted for under-reacting when your child is threatened or hurt in some way. The same parents who won’t raise an eyebrow in discipline of their child are the first to scream lawsuit if anything happens to that same child.

And don’t forget folks, we only hear one side of the story. The tearful child paraded on the news by the outraged parents take full advantage that the school system can say nothing in their own defense - or again, that would be another lawsuit.

Common sense in the schools? How about some common sense with the parents?

By Leslie

June 11, 2006 03:06 PM | Link to this

Bryan-

Get a clue- there is no teacher’s union in the state of Georgia.

By Leslie

June 11, 2006 03:19 PM | Link to this

Nique-

If you and your daughter knew and broke the rule- why are you so outraged? Do you get to choose which rules your daughter follows and which she doesn’t just because you are the parent? What about the parent who says her daughter doesn’t have to do her homework? Should the teacher not be allowed to hold the child in for recess? What about the parent who says that if someone picks on him that he should fight back? If the teacher disciplines that child- isn’t she also ursurping the parental authority? Your child is in public school and has to follow school rules- if you don’t like them- homeschool or put your daughter into a private school. You made a decision and your child had to pay the consequences. Your child was hardly damaged by having to stay in for recess.

By GAPeachTeacher

June 11, 2006 04:30 PM | Link to this

Bryan, in spite of your failed attempt to appear in support of teachers, especially in cities like Atlanta, you’ve still struck a nerve with me.

Believe me, teachers have to do more than think for themselves . . we think for our students, we think for their parents, we think for the system that doesn’t have a clue.

You’ve bitten off more than you can chew here, my friend ~ Spend a day in an inner city school and I guarantee you won’t be breaking your neck to do it again ~ I’ve had several parents do so & they have all said, “I don’t know HOW you do this . . I would have walked out by 10am!” ~ Well guess what, there are days when I feel the same way ~ But instead, I stay to fulfill my passion ~ I remain to help the children think whose parents have long stopped doing so ~ Believe me, the last thing I need is to be accused of not thinking!!!!

Not after I create, invent and develop new & exciting and hands-on ways to convey the instructional material so that your child can understand ~ Not after I address the numerous disciplinary problems which takes approximately 45 minutes a day away from my instruction ~ (And don’t accuse me of being an ineffective classroom manager either, when EVERY teacher in my school sends their discipline problems to me when the administrators are not available, and do nothing when they are) ~ When the children have no home training, you leave the school with few other options ~ We have to be mom, dad, counselor, pastor, doctor, etc. ~ You don’t think that takes thought??!!

I bet you sit in your nice, comfy office chair playing games and burning CDs ~ Oh, wait . .your feet are on the desk, as you’re reclined talking on the phone for hours at a time ~ All the while, you expect to be rewarded financially for every time you do something that is not in your job description ~ Gimme a break, dude . . unless you’ve walked a day in the life of a teacher, shut your freaking mouth !!!

By wks

June 11, 2006 07:12 PM | Link to this

After reading every single post here … some with true merit and some as useless(ignorant) as the law itself. I’ve had to back off from my initial stance. There are legitimate Pro’s and Cons on both sides of the issue, but in coming to that realization, it seems to define the whole debate. There is no clear cut solution, no Yes or No answer to the problem of disciplining our children; or the equally if not more pressing issue of the quality of education are kids are receiving in public schools.

Not to make light of the issue, but to paraphrase the words of “Rockhound” from the movie ‘Armegeddon’, “it’s a freaking Greek tragedy!”

Don’t misunderstand me now, the blame does not belong solely with the school system, we can’t blame all the teachers, for the ill-prepared, stressed-out, or apathetic few who no longer have the energy to babysit our kids , let alone provide them with an education. And with what we pay our educators , how can we expect more … no, the blame doesn’t lie with the Teachers.

Nor does it rest solely on the shoulders of the administrators, ( this is where I normally would place my educational gripes, ) starting with the School Board on down to the Cafeteria nutrition Coordinator.

No, the blame lies with us all, Administrators, Teachers, Government, Parents, and students. Yes, we have to hold the students responsible for their actions as well.

But the problem and solution starts at home. What we like to call ‘BAD Parenting’, reckless, unattentive, apathetic, or absence there of, begins with the guidance, discipline and attentiveness that we are obligated to provide as parents.

And believe me this is a very serious problem, as I’m sure the majority of the posters here can agree. Possibly the most vital component to the preservation/maturation/salvation of our society, our country - lies with the successful education(development) of our children, both mentally, physically, and spiritually. Our future is literally in their hands!

In my opinion, the post that was most revealing, was also the shortest:

By nana

June 10, 2006 01:37 PM | Link to this

http://www.rachelscott.com/ColumbineRedemption/Congressional.htm

Agnostics notwithstanding, We need to bring God back into our homes and into our Schools …

And as for this discussion, we don’t live in a ‘Zero Tolerance’ society. So why are we trying to teach(force) our kids to live in one …

(pardon all my grammatical mistakes in this post and long-windedness)

By Jennifer

June 11, 2006 08:14 PM | Link to this

I don’t want your god in my kids schools? My god is a Catholic one. And that’s the god I will teach my children about…by bringing them to church and teaching them my faith. You do the same for your kids and keep your version of god out of the public schools.

By The72John

June 11, 2006 09:11 PM | Link to this

Agnostics notwithstanding, We need to bring God back into our homes and into our Schools

Um..why? Because things were so much better when “God” was “in the schools”?

Sweetie, I know you’re probably 90 and overwhelmingly ignorant, but horrific tragedies have happened throughout the history of human society, whether or not theocrats were making public pronouncments of their faith.

Saying “If we only put God back in the schools things would be better” is nonsensical. People do crappy things to each other. If their are more Columbines today than thirty years ago it’s because an angry teenage can buy an assault rifle on the streetcorner, not because “God” isn’t in his school system.

Get a grip.

By al

June 11, 2006 10:21 PM | Link to this

I think they came up with zero tolerance to relieve themselves of any decision making responsibilities and to protect them from anyone questioning their actions. They are able to do anything and it’s well we have zero tolerance. I got a call from Shamrock, a Dekalb Co. middle school, 9 years ago about my son. They said some kids took their plastic utensils from the school cafeteria and were flipping each other with them. She said he was going to be expelled for weapons violation and read me the code of zero tolerance for weapons. I said, “But you gave them to him”. And she said, “Oh, well we’re going to suspend him for three days for disobeying the teacher, because she had warned them to stop doing this”. I went along with this, but it was one of the stupidest things ever. You would expect more out of semi-educated people. These are people we trust to educate our children.

By wks

June 11, 2006 11:43 PM | Link to this

Jennifer, you poor soul … my God vs. your God? … hmmn, I always taught there was only one God … anyway, you’re confusing religion with spirituality. That’s all I will say on the subject of religion, I have no intention of turning this discussion into a “holy war”. keep your faith, Catholic you say .. I attended catholic school in my early years…hmmn, I seem to remember us praying at a minimum 5 times a day… didn’t seem to hurt us any.

As for the other useless post, no response necessary. We can see she/he has no faith and very little knowledge for that matter… I won’t get into personal attacks… back to the subject at hand. Is zero tolerance actually preventing the type of attacks that it was intended for .. I think not, visit any school in the city, and observe .. assaults occur on a daily basis … Zero tolerance is not the solution.

By wks

June 12, 2006 12:02 AM | Link to this

It always amuses me when people denounce the power of prayer, or God for that matter in this so-called Hi-Tech Age we live in today .. but let them get car-jacked somewhere down off Metropolitan Pkwy with a .9mm Glock pressed against their head and see how many prayers they manage to come up with then…

By GregF

June 12, 2006 04:39 AM | Link to this

I’ve enjoyed reading the last several days of comments before posting this. I’m reminded of the blind men “seeing” an elephant for the first time. Each touched a portion of the animal and then declared he understood what an elephant was. Of course, each had a partial idea, but none really understood the beast’s size or function. The same problem exists in these postings. You all have accurately diagnosed one or more symptoms of the illness, and even suggested cures. Yet, the patient is still SICK.

My two children hace both graduated from college with honors after attending public school. Sorry, the answer is not private school, home schooling, zero tolerance, berating the system, bad teachers, incompetent administrators, or making unfounded and outragous generalizations and name calling. I have worked as a substitute teacher for over two years in the Gwinnett high schools. I have seen the worst of the worst and the best of the best. The problem is, we are dealing with children. Unfortunately, some of them are parents of students, most are students. I can unequivocally state that I am impressed with the overall competency, dedication, and quality of all the schools in which I have worked. We have every right to be proud of our educators and the school system they are valiantly trying to run. And, yes, I have met the occasional weak teacher, seen incomprehensible decisions made and enforced and know there has to be a more efficient way to educate our children for the $/head we now spend. The educational system is not perfect, it is run by human beings, after all.

My suggestion? First, stop complaining and get involved. The parents-on-the-bus idea has merit, although you can’t search every child as they get on the bus, any more than you can be searched every time you enter the mall. That’s not how our country works, George Bush not withstanding. Sit in on classes, observe. Ask the teachers and administrators what they need and what their ideas are. Share your ideas and concerns. Get to know and respect each other. Then start fixing the problem from the bottom up. The rules and regs. as they now stand, are not to control the learners, but to set boundries for the knuckleheads. Our children are cheated out of instruction time every day because the least mature of the flock require the most herding. If a teacher could simply say,”OK, Johnny/Janie you’ve taken up too much class time with your antics. Go to the behavior challenged classes.” during the first two weekas of school, the entire system could be changed over night. Many students view class attendence and participation as a right, and something to be tolerated with minimum effort until the bell rings. Fine. Put them somewhere where they will not interfere with the learning priocess of students who are mature enough to want to learn and possess enough self control to respect their fellow students and the instructor. The ones who want to play and talk and be rude and disruptive can go to classes where that is tolerated, and they can stay in school until they mature enough to apply themselves and finally graduate. The phrase, “I spent the happiest four years of my life as a highschool senior.” takes on a whole new meaning. Maybe they need to take a working hiatus and try to earn a living with what they know now.

Understand, I am not implying these are bad kids, or ignorant teens. Quite the contrary, many of the brightest are just as immature and do cleverer but just as dumb stunts. Remember, teens are at the most physically perfect and mentally/emotionally incomplete time of their life. That’s why they make such good soldiers.

So, think about this. Parents have the singular responsibility to raise their child. Schools can’t and shouldn’t teach morals and character and ethics as kids primary source for those topics. Therefore, the solution lies with parents. For roudy kids (training), for excellence in the education system (keeping current and either applauding or complaining), for costs (ask questions), rules and regs, everything, really. Sorry, I don’t see any easy fix.

By Jennifer

June 12, 2006 06:20 AM | Link to this

wks…of course you remember praying 4 or 5 times a day when you went to Catholic school. So did I when I went to Catholic school.

That was CATHOLIC school..ie PRIVATE school. We are talking about PUBLIC school here. Funded by my, your, and your mama’s tax dollars. I’m Catholic, maybe you and your mama are, but I bet most people here are Baptist. And the god that the Baptists talk about on Sunday is waaaaaaaaaaaay different than the god that Cathlics talk about on Saturdary or Sunday. I don’t want my child to be taught the same tenants of faith as a Baptist.

And that’s why I don’t want god in public school. Neither mine nor yours.

Did you forget we were talking about public school? Bless your heart.

By JH

June 12, 2006 07:03 AM | Link to this

What about the sharp steel bar with the big knob at one end that every teacher and high school kid who drives to school bring onto the school grounds everyday. They’re all violating zero tolerance with this weapon (otherwise known as a tire tool.) If a belt buckle is dangerous, imagine how bad a weapon like this could be. It boggles the mind. Based on how ridiculously the rules are enforced, I’m sure someone will wake up to this danger and add it to the list.

By Too Much..

June 12, 2006 08:11 AM | Link to this

Well, well. I can tell you all first hand that this does not work. Our son was arrested for possession of a small amount of marijuana at school and lost everything important to him. The consequences were many. I assure you first and foremost that we are not idiot parents and loved and nurtured our kids, as well. What has happened now? He is one of the people in the criminal offender system that you people complain about! Why? because possession is a felony on school grounds. So I guess you think “oh well, that is his fault” and you are right. Look, however, at the CDC statistics on drug use alone in Georgia in high schoolers and illegal alcohol use. Our schools are full of felons! Don’t sit there and think “my kid would never do that” . I thought the same thing. The only thing happening here is which kids are smart enough to elude the system. The ones who are willing to put themselves out there are the ones who are punished with things like the belt buckle. As far as a “picture” leading to the use of a gun; that is obsurd, does that mean that anytime you go to Walmart or Dick’s sporting goods you might become a criminal? Please…

By KarenA

June 12, 2006 08:20 AM | Link to this

Zero Tolerance policies belong in totalitarian regimes and prisons, and these policies act in opposition to our legal system. I think the wiser policy would be based on our legal system. Schools should be teaching students about the rule of law; about intent, burden of proof, evidence, totality of circumstances, opportunity to testify, to call witnesses, and schools should examine and weigh the infraction in light of any previous infractions before passing a one size fits all punishment. If schools want to prepare students for life, they must model real life.

By jim d

June 12, 2006 08:37 AM | Link to this

Mr.Allen,

Since the school system is prohibited by law from discussing the particulars surrounding the suspension of this student and no public records can be released regarding any disciplinary actions taken against this student in the past. How can you assume this is unjust treatment of the student? Are you aware of extenuating circumstances surrounding this incident that no one else is? Or are you simply assuming this was the first disciplinary action taken against this young man?

By Roger Huff

June 12, 2006 09:11 AM | Link to this

Bill, you make a strong point. I agree completely.

I would even go as far as grouping the paranoid with Child Services as well.