Rick Badie / My Opinion

By John

December 6, 2005 05:54 AM | Link to this

It is typical of weak school administrators to try to deny students and employees their rights instead of doing the hard work it takes to be a good administrator.

How a person dresses is a First Amendment issue. This has been made VERY clear by the Georgia Supreme Court. The fact that this attempt to restrict liberty IS an issue at all at South Gwinnett shows that the administration there needs to be replaced.

School is not about making life easy for the people who run the schools, it is about educating the students who attend the school. Part of that education is an appreciation for the rights of others, even those whose opinions we find “offensive”. The only thing truly offensive here is that the administration would propose such a violation of liberty simply because it is unable to do its job.

By TinG

December 6, 2005 06:36 AM | Link to this

I teach at Berkmar High School which is also in Gwinnett. Almost every day I see students walk right past administrators, the Principal included, while dressed inappropriately. The teachers that try to enforce the dress code become the “bad guys”. Administration does not give the support needed to make this dress stuff a non-issue.

By Michael H. Smith

December 6, 2005 06:37 AM | Link to this

The issue to discuss Rick, is not all parents obviously had the Mom and Dad like you and I had. Yeah we had freedom and we had liberty…. to do exactly what we were told!

Me, go out of my parent’s house, with my buttock showing…. Noooo ho ho ho don’t even THINK about going there. Pants ragged with holes all over, only threads covering my rump…. Yeah right! There would be something else covering my rump before that day was out, if I didn’t change into something that met their approval.

By Shanon

December 6, 2005 07:04 AM | Link to this

I’ve been told by my administrators not to “get burned out” fighting the dress code fight. I thought making sure the handbook was followed was part of my job. Silly me.

These same administrators tell us at faculty meetings that they have more pressing issues and don’t want to handle the “smaller issues” of bookbags, dress code, IDs, etc. So don’t send those problems to the office.

The teachers on my hall agree that if those “smaller issues” would be handled, the the “larger issues” of fighting, profanity, academic sucess, would take care of themselves. I’ve love to find out if this hypothesis is actually true.

By Kathleen

December 6, 2005 07:42 AM | Link to this

The issue of dress code starts way before high school. Many of the students in the elementary schools are wearing inappropriate clothes, especially the young girls. Third, fourth and fifth graders are just smaller versions of the high schoolers in cami tops and low cut jeans.

In fourth grade I fought with my son almost every morning about his clothing choices. Demanding he wear a belt, so your pants won’t fall down, and tuck in his shirt. The principal wanted shirts tucked in, but it wasn’t explicitly stated in the school handbook, so teachers were lax in enforcing the rule.

This year I transferred my son to a private school. Uniforms are mandatory dress. He was resistant at first, but we no longer agrue in the morning and he actually thinks he looks good.

One of my sons friends attends a private school that has a dress code, but not mandatory uniforms. If you violate the dress code, which he did, you then have to wear a uniform. Maybe Gwinnett schools should consider a similar policy.

By Shell

December 6, 2005 07:44 AM | Link to this

Your hypothesis is correct, Sharon. Read up on the recent history of New York City and you’ll have the proof you seek. Rudy Guiliani did exactly what you said, handled the smaller issues and the larger issues sorted themselves out because of it, during his time in office. The crime rate dropped like a stone because he ordered the police to stop letting the smaller issues slide while they dealt with more “pressing matters”.

By Shannon

December 6, 2005 08:15 AM | Link to this

It is high time adminstrators stop worrying about what mom and dad will complain about and start enforcing the rules. Why have any dress code if nobody adheres to it? It makes the students realize that rules are not worth the paper they are written on. In the coporate world there are dress codes and if you don’t obey them, you are written up and could be eventually fired. Aren’t we trying to educate our students to further their education in college so they can support themselves one day? If you treat them like adults, expect them to behave like adults, then eventually they will act like addults or suffer the consequences.

By Shell

December 6, 2005 08:22 AM | Link to this

Sorry, I meant “Shanon”. Only had one cup of coffee yet. :)

By Bruce Wilcox

December 6, 2005 08:32 AM | Link to this

“Individuality and freedom of expression should take a back seat to conformity and order.”.

Please give me a break, high school is the time for indiviuality and freedom, it’s the base for the rest of their lives. What do you expect from education, teaching to the test and conforming little sheep or students like Marcus, thinkers, not afraid to stand up for what they believe in?

“School-age students aren’t grown, and they won’t be for years.” But they can drive, work and soon after high school can vote or go to war. We have military recuiters on campus, yet they’re not mature enough to make decisions?

Schools uniforms worked well in Germany in the thirties, the Hilter Youth. Conformity and order was the rule, individuality and freedom of expression was banned.

From the article on uniforms: “University of Missouri-Columbia published a book that said uniforms didn’t improve test scores or cut down on behavioral problems. Other researchers say schools should focus on academics, not student dress.” In the same article it pointed out another survey pointed out how well uniforms wroked out, it was conducted by a uniform maker.

I don’t know what era Mr. Badie thinks he lives in, but Donna Reed has left the building.

By Elizabeth

December 6, 2005 08:47 AM | Link to this

I have children in Elementary School in Sugar Hill. I will not let them walk out of the house until they meet my standards of dress code. They are coming from a private school in St.Louis, where the dress code was fully inforced. If you were not up to code, you were sent to the office and the parents were called. You sat in the office until your parent arrived or they agreed to pay $1.00 for every violation. Maybe if you put a monetary conscequence, they would actually listen. A fee that would need to be payed before getting your report card. I don’t see anything wrong with wearing unforms. Seems to me it would solve a lot of problems and teens have plenty of other times and places to express their individuality.

By jim dumond

December 6, 2005 08:59 AM | Link to this

I’m going out on a limb here but,

Hip Huggers, Bell bottoms, Short shorts, mini skirts, tank tops, tube tops, penny loafers, leather jackets, stretch pants,

I always thought memory was the second thing to go. Perhaps I was wrong.

By Shell

December 6, 2005 09:10 AM | Link to this

Bruce, I too take exception to the statement at the beginning of your post, but for different reasons. High school is the last of your primary education. The base of knowledge gained there is to be built on and expanded, not depended on to inform you for the rest of your life. High schoolers are children, not having reached their majority until near the end of it usually, unless they’re held back or failed for some reason. Giving them some leeway in behavior is acceptable, but treating them as fully emancipated adults is wrong. University is “…the time for individuality and freedom…”. Whether or not they’re actually adults, university students are of an age to be considered so. There are, however, still rules to follow or consequences if you don’t. Welcome to the real world, kids.

And one more thing. To anyone who thinks the high point of their life was high school, and bases their life on their experiences there, I for one feel sorry for them. It’s going to be a long crappy life. Just ask my father.

By Mark

December 6, 2005 09:28 AM | Link to this

Good parents would’nt let their child dress like whores or “gangstas” before leaving for school.

By Shell

December 6, 2005 09:41 AM | Link to this

True, Mark, but some of the kids are like Eddie Haskell in a way. So nice butter wouldn’t melt in their mouths until they get away from mom and dad, then all hll breaks loose. A woman I know had the problem with her daughters. The girls would leave in the morning conforming to mom’s dress code, then on the way to or at school change into the ho clothes they’d stashed in their bookbags. On the way home they’d change back. The mom didn’t know until one of the girls went too far in the ho direction and mom got a phone call about it. Suffice it to say that mom was *very displeased and reacted accordingly.

On the other hand, there are some parents who think it’s just “the style” and don’t have a problem with it. I do. I went to buy school clothes for my eight-year-old and was limited in my choices because I refuse to buy a little girl pants with “JUICY”, “NAUGHTY”, “BAD GIRL”, or “YOU WISH” printed or embroidered on the seat.

By Shell

December 6, 2005 09:51 AM | Link to this

Wow. Screwed up the use of italics there, me.

By jim dumond

December 6, 2005 09:52 AM | Link to this

Shell, FDR said it best.

“Since the beginning of our American history we have been engaged in change—in a perpetual peaceful revolution—a revolution which goes on steadily, quietly adjusting itself to changing conditions—”

Franklin D. Roosevelt “The Four Freedoms� Excerpt from 6 January 1941 message to Congress on the State of the Union

By Teacher, Too

December 6, 2005 10:07 AM | Link to this

Why do so many private schools have uniforms if it surpresses individuality? That whole argument is ridiculous! Is dress the only way students can express their individuality? And how are baggy jeans, extra long t-shirts, cami tops that expose plenty of cleavage and jeans that expose more than they reveal- how is that expressing individuality? They are just following a fashion trend, not truly expressing their unique personalities.

Many businesses have a dress code, even a uniform. The post office has a uniform. Does that mean that those employees don’t have liberty and first amendment rights?

I would love to see uniforms in my school. I’ll say it again, if private schools can have uniforms and have successful students whose individuality and creativity isn’t stifled, then why can’t public schools?

By C.R.H.

December 6, 2005 10:09 AM | Link to this

I like the baggy pants, the sagging pants make it easier to catch them when they try running! As far as the attire of some females…if cars are pulling up to your daughter at the bus stop and asking “are you partying?” or “how much?”, maybe you should think about dressing her a little more modestly. Although those GIGANTIC heels they wear also make it fun to watch them stumble around the halls like they are just learning to walk (especially if they have a heavy bookbag).

By Shell

December 6, 2005 10:16 AM | Link to this

Not sure where you’re going with that, jim, but I do see FDR’s point in that particular quote. I disagree wholeheartedly, however, with the substance of the “Four Freedoms” speech. He calls for a Utopia which will never exist when he calls for, among other things, “…freedom from want and fear.” Want and fear are facts of life, have been with us since man has existed, and will be with us until man ceases to exist. They are two of the prime motivators in human behavior.

By Bruce Wilcox

December 6, 2005 10:18 AM | Link to this

Shell, I was educated in the North during the sixties in what would be considered by todays ‘teaching to the test’ as a very liberal system. We were challenged to think, to discuss, to form our own opinions, not to be parrots. That base served me well in the military, college and throughtout my life.

Unlike today, we faced serious issues, the civil rights movement, the draft, the war and the environment. The major issue of todays youth is what field to go into to make the most money.

While protecting the young babes till they reach college they’ll be in for a rude awakening, maybe that’s why the drop-out rate is so high, they’re unprepared. You also forget that a large percentage of students will never go on to college, who will be holding their hands for they also will be unprepared.

Turning out a generation of conforming sheep is not my idea of a future.

By jim dumond

December 6, 2005 10:19 AM | Link to this

The bottom line here is that we can either change with the times or get the hell out of the way, cause its going to happen.

Early in my own life, well not real early but lets just say about a half century ago, our parents lamented that Rock-N-roll would be the damnation of this country.

We’re still here.

I fail to see how a child today dresses is really going to affect our long term servivability.

I don’t really care to see a kid with his pants falling off, but it has absolutely no bearing on me.

By BobG

December 6, 2005 10:33 AM | Link to this

High school is for learning, not “expressing individuality.” Private schools figured out a long time ago that uniforms promote learning and don’t turn children into “cookie-cutter drones.” There will be plenty of time for “expression” later.

By J.P.

December 6, 2005 10:51 AM | Link to this

When I was in high school, quite a few kids would leave the house dressed one way and show up at school dressed another. The schools must enforce the rules or else the parents will never know.

By jim dumond

December 6, 2005 10:54 AM | Link to this

Let’s see.

Importance level. 10 being more important

How kids dress = 10 Aressa Harris = 1

See anything wrong?

By Jay

December 6, 2005 11:09 AM | Link to this

I am just confused how it only takes one parent to get the school to fire a teacher for showing their children a rated R movie but the school can’t enforce a dress code. I should just go up there and tell them that John Smith is wearing inappropriate attire and that should fix everything. All it takes is one angry parent, right?

By AL

December 6, 2005 11:14 AM | Link to this

Hello! For employers that require uniforms, do you cry First Ammendment rights? Get a grip on reality! Look at the world around you and see what’s going on. The children need structure and it’s obviously not being given at home. I say YES for the uniforms!

By jim dumond

December 6, 2005 11:23 AM | Link to this

Lighten up Al.

Just because a child doesn’t dress to please you, doesn’t mean they are being negleted at home.

By jim dumond

December 6, 2005 11:26 AM | Link to this

And speaking of reality; I furnish uniforms to my employees as a perk not as a requirement for employment.

I assure you I’d rather not.

By jim dumond

December 6, 2005 11:34 AM | Link to this

WAIT—-I HAVE THE SOLUTION!

NUDITY

That would certainly end the problem of what children wear to school.

By Sherry Hall

December 6, 2005 11:35 AM | Link to this

Many have stated that high school is the “jumping off” point for life. They say this is the greatest learning experience. Well, a dress code would teach these children a valuable lesson. I don’t know of one business that does not have a dress code. Violations of those codes can and sometimes do result in termination. Enforcing a dress code in high school would give the children a true life lesson.

Others state that a dress code deprives the children of their rights to express their individuality. Please. They all look alike…a bunch of fashion lemmings. There is no individuality being expressed. They are just a bunch of non-conforming conformists.

By LWA

December 6, 2005 11:41 AM | Link to this

Rules on how we should dress surround us everyday in life: work, weddings, church, funerals, formal dinner gathering, parties, graduation, etc. At what point in our lives do we begin to teach our children when and what to wear at appropriate times? There is a time and place for everything.

How many times have you gone to an event and you hear someone say (or you think) why is he/she wearing that?

This is where that behavior of conscience thinking begins. As we mold our youth and get them prepared for life, when do we teach them these little life lessons. Parents for many of these youth aren’t doing what they should do: Providing guidance and discipline for their kids without making excuses.

I don’t want administrators/teachers wasting time checking on clothes. This is taking time away from the classroom.

I will never agree with the fact that “it shows the child’s individuality.” This can be shown in their school work and how much they succeed.

We can either have the option of 1) send the child to the office, call the parent(s) and let them pick the child up from school. Then, we can go over the dress code with the parent(s) or 2) require a uniform. After having a parent come to the school and miss work a few times, maybe they can take a little more interest in what the child is wearing to school.

As for the kids who change clothes after they leave home, this is what surprise visits to the school are for.

By Rob

December 6, 2005 11:42 AM | Link to this

Jon- I have a family member that teaches at South and comes home every night, particularly this semester, and cries because of how aweful and rude the students are. Why are the students so terrible? Because their parents let them do whatever they want, including what they wear! She spends more time filling out behavior reports and dress code violations than teaching. And when she tries to teach, a certain group of students make it their job to distract her. If they are denied, she gets cornered with “my mamma told me not to listen to old white ladies.” Yeah, the whole culture is causing problems in the classroom, which in my opinion seems more like a fashion show daycare.

By jim dumond

December 6, 2005 11:44 AM | Link to this

Hi Sherry,

Appears we’re on opposite sides of this fence.

Being a non-conforming conformists sounds better to me than being a conforming comformist.

By jim dumond

December 6, 2005 11:50 AM | Link to this

I can’t help but wonder how many of the people posting here about what kids are wearing today were long hair hippie types wearing tie-dyes, holy jeans and jesus shoes?

By Bruce Wilcox

December 6, 2005 11:53 AM | Link to this

It seems many just want to past on more parental control over to the schools, instead of taking responsibilty?

By jim dumond

December 6, 2005 12:01 PM | Link to this

Bruce,

It would appear our generation failed to pass the torch of individualism.

By Shell

December 6, 2005 12:01 PM | Link to this

Stop it, jim, you’re killin’ me. ;)

Bruce, I think we’re close to being on the same sheet of music here. You used your high school time as a base to build on. Some will do the same, some won’t. If they won’t, they suffer for it. Society does too, but we can’t make anyone do more than they want to with their life. Too many are like a former co-worker of mine who told me one day (in the midst of an incoherent rant about politics and economics, about which he knew less than nothing) “I graduated from high school! The government says that’s all the education I need!” ::(

I’ll say it again, high school is the last of your primary education. It is meant to serve as a base of knowledge to build on in order to succeed, not to serve as your only means of success. You must educate yourself further in some way, be it going on to university for more directed learning or independent study and thought, in order to do more than get by.

By FedUp

December 6, 2005 12:08 PM | Link to this

It’s time to realize why kids are in school. It’s to learn, not to have a fashion show. I agree with uniforms. There are plenty of other ways to express your individuality, like with your personality, the extra-curricular activities you participate in, etc. If you need clothes to “express who you are”, then you are a sad little person. Get your education first, worry about your fashion style when/if you manage to graduate.

By Constitutional Textualist

December 6, 2005 12:10 PM | Link to this

Put simply, the educational system is broken. Having grown up in a foreign country where teachers are respected, uniforms mandatory, and secondary education was a privilege, not a right, I was shocked to see the behavior of kids in American schools. The teacher had wide latitute in disciplining students. When students were punished, the parents did not run to the administrator to get someone fired or to a lawyer to sue, except in extreme cases. Despite the student to teacher ration being double of what it is here in the states, children in foreign countries perform better than our students. Why? because teachers are allowed to teach, and not be baby sitters.

Re the uniforms: Uniforms are designed to do what it says: make students more uniform. For those of you who think that students have a constitutional right to dress like a ho, you are right. However, there is no absolute right. I think a uniform is a reasonable regulation on students in order to maintain order in the classroom.

By jim dumond

December 6, 2005 12:10 PM | Link to this

Sorry Shell,

I can’t stop because this is a laughing matter.

We could be discussing things here that would really make a difference in a childs life, but nooooo. let’s talk about bare shoulders and baggy pants.

Gimme a break.

By Lisa

December 6, 2005 12:15 PM | Link to this

Did Bill Gates wear a uniform at school? Someone ask him since he’s the most successful man in the country.

My teenagers have been dressing themselves since they were 2 - 3 years old. They are conservative. My daughter is a hoodie/t-shirt, navel not showing type person, and my son is a rugby shirt/polo shirt pants up to the waist kind of guy. They know if they were to bring any type of clothing that shows disrespect of themselves into the house, the clothes would be in the fireplace and they’d be grounded. There’s no problem there.

I happened to be in a Gwinnett County high school on Friday at dismissal. Yikes! There were pajamas in the halls as well as slippers. Where’s the teddy bears and pillows?

Extremes aren’t the answer here. Uniforms aren’t the answer as much as pajamas aren’t the answer.

As a single mom who leaves for work in the morning, I have no idea what my kids have on for the day. But I buy their clothes and when they shop for themselves, I have the right to inspect what comes into my house. I’m the first fashion police that they meet, so that teachers and administrators don’t have to be. And hopefully, they respect themselves enough to not care what the peer group fashion police say. But it all stays in the household.

By Bruce Wilcox

December 6, 2005 12:16 PM | Link to this

Sadly I agree Jim, where will the writers, poets, free thinkers, those who think outside the box and the artists come from? It will be a very drab and boring world to look forward to.

By jim dumond

December 6, 2005 12:20 PM | Link to this

Don’t be too sure Bruce,

Some of us started second families and stll have youngsters.

There is hope.

By Johanna

December 6, 2005 12:21 PM | Link to this

So, I guess you guys think that no writers, poets, or free thinkers went to a private school that required uniforms.

By jim dumond

December 6, 2005 12:26 PM | Link to this

Never said that.

Did insinuate, however, that allowing children to think for themselves early in life teaches tham to think more clearly later.

By Mikey

December 6, 2005 12:29 PM | Link to this

Well - I work at the now infamous South Gwinnett, and until the administrators really want to earn their money and enforce the existing dress code - our only hope is the “uniform dress code.”

By jim dumond

December 6, 2005 12:32 PM | Link to this

Mikey,

I still fail to see why this is of concern.

Can you provide evidence that how a child dresses affects their performance? I’ve read studies going both ways. Which to me means they were inconclusive.

By Bruce Wilcox

December 6, 2005 12:38 PM | Link to this

Shell where we disagree is when does childhood end. In my generation those who didn’t plan on college had an excellent chance of being drafted at eighteen. If we were required to wear uniforms then, like Germany in the thirties, we would have good little soldiers ready to die.

Maybe we should start the draft again and impose it on all right after high school, I wonder if parents would still consider them babes in arms?

By Chris

December 6, 2005 12:39 PM | Link to this

I have a daughter who attends South. For her and her sisters we instituted a dress code for them all at the beginning of the year. Collared shirts, tucked in, slacks or a skirt. They don’t like it because they are the only ones, but when they get older they are going to be requrired to dress for work. We told them that they are practicing for the real world and that they need to get ready to succeed. Like it or not people do judge you on your appearance.

By jim dumond

December 6, 2005 12:47 PM | Link to this

Chris,

I could care about those that would judge me based on appearance.

I don’t need that type of superficial gratification.

By Mikey

December 6, 2005 12:47 PM | Link to this

I cannot provide evidence how dress affects their performance, but, it does affect how quickly they can walk down the hallway while holding up their pants!

Additionally, it takes instructional time away from me if I have to address the students’ dress and send him/her to the appropriate administrator.

By jim dumond

December 6, 2005 12:51 PM | Link to this

Ok, then the consequence for baggy pants is one is late for class? Doesn’t tardiness require ISS?

And if dress were not an issue at all—YOU wouldn’t have to spend your time dealing with it.

By Mikey

December 6, 2005 12:51 PM | Link to this

Chris - good for you. Luckily, your daughters aren’t the only ones who dress appropriately. But, those who don’t cause all the commotion.

Jim - it’s not about being “gratified” by looking at some kid’s clothes. It’s about not seeing some boys underwear or some girls thong.

By Mikey

December 6, 2005 12:54 PM | Link to this

Jim - I’m curious - are you just trying to be arbitrary, or do you honestly believe that we shouldn’t have a dress code or uniform in high schools?

By jim dumond

December 6, 2005 12:54 PM | Link to this

OK—So my previous solution of NUDITY works for you?

By jim dumond

December 6, 2005 12:58 PM | Link to this

No I’m being quite honest. If parents don’t care what their children look like, Why should I?

By Lisa

December 6, 2005 01:01 PM | Link to this

Nudity? Then they’d be judged by the piercings, tattoos, and brandings. Doesn’t work.

And Jim, the proper phrase is… I COULDN’T care less. You’re sentence actual means that you really do care.

By Not alone

December 6, 2005 01:03 PM | Link to this

Ron- I was at my daughters choral concert recently and was appalled at the behavior observed while other groups were singing. The event was held in a church and if I closed my eyes I would have thought it was the mall or a bar. Cell phones were in use, talking, yelling at the singers “Go Shaniqua” “Do it honey”. They were singing religious toned music! I finally glared at several who were close by talking on the phone and was acosted by the “Mom” afterwards! “What right did I have…” I told her they were “disrespecting” MY rights to enjoy the concert(used that word on purpose)as well as the house of the Lord. If she had a problem with that take it up with him… and walked away. My daughter tells me the students in her chorus class repeatedly call the teacher a racist when she does not resond to the attempts to disrupt the class.

This goes way beyond what children wear to class. I suppose that if dress can be taken away as a small issue then the big problems might improve.

By Jason Davis

December 6, 2005 01:03 PM | Link to this

Rick, I can tell you that the clothing industry has made it difficult to find modest clothing for teenage girls, but not impossible. Of course, the industry is catering to the wishes of the consumers, which puts the ball right back in the court of the parents.

I applaud the school for doing what is right. As for a previous comment by someone that clothing is a First Amendment issue, I would disagree. Where does one draw the line? Should birthday suits be allowed (total lack of clothing)? Should thong bikinis be allowed? I think not. Modesty needs to be considered, whether in a learning environment or an employment environment.

Parents need to take the lead, and make certain that their children are dressed appropriately, so that their clothing does not become a distraction to others.

By jim dumond

December 6, 2005 01:07 PM | Link to this

Thanks Lisa. Or should that be thank you Lisa? :)

And actually I could care less means, Yes I could care less it doesn’t mean I don’t care at all. It also infers that I do care some. (but not much)

By jim dumond

December 6, 2005 01:12 PM | Link to this

Jason

“I applaud the school for doing what is right.”

In whose eyes? Yours?

By Tricia

December 6, 2005 01:13 PM | Link to this

I totally support Rick Badie’s stance on this subject. My daughter is a student at South Gwinnett and each morning, I look over her outfit before I leave at 6:20 AM! She has had to change it a few times and she doesn’t like it, but that’s too bad. When she’s out of our house, she can make the decisions of an adult. Until then, we’ll remain the parental units, as she calls us! Children want to be parented. It equals love.

By jim dumond

December 6, 2005 01:18 PM | Link to this

What’s next? Skimpy Cheerleader outfits? Wrestling Singlets? How about Swimmers speedos? and god forbid a young lady wear a thong or the boys wear boxers.

JMHO, but y’all should be thankful they are wearing them under those baggy pants.

By Bruce Wilcox

December 6, 2005 01:19 PM | Link to this

Jim when they resort to grammar and spelling corrections it must mean they don’t have much of an agrument to defend.

By jim dumond

December 6, 2005 01:21 PM | Link to this

Tricia, you’re one of the few getting the point.

It is a Parents responsibility and they have every right to instruct their children in proper attire.

IT is not the Governments job, nor is it a right parents should willingly give up.

By Tricia

December 6, 2005 01:27 PM | Link to this

Thanks! I’m really sick of people who expect teachers, the government, censors, etc. to parent their own children. Why have them if you don’t want to do the work yourselves and therefore reap the many rewards of raising a child?

By jim dumond

December 6, 2005 01:29 PM | Link to this

Bruce, how can one argue with the premise that it isn’t governments right nor other parents rights to tell my child how to dress?

That right belongs to my child and to me to trump his choices.

What most are overlooking here is that once they delegate others to enforce what they think is right they are also relinquishing their own right to make those choices.

By Lisa

December 6, 2005 01:31 PM | Link to this

Bruce,

A pet peeve of mine is the couldn’t care less thing, not a defense less stance. Sorry! I correct people on that and also “I ain’t got no” both drive me crazy.

I talked to my daughter about this subject last night. She said that uniforms wouldn’t help with the disrespect that goes on at school. Clothing choices are an effect of self disrespect rather than the cause. The group she hangs around with dress pretty much the same - no skin or underwear showing, no slippers or pajamas. They’re a good bunch of kids and their clothing reflects it. She said that if everyone dressed in a uniform the only way you could tell the thugs was by the way they disrespected the teachers and the kids at school that are there to learn. I agree with her.

By holly

December 6, 2005 01:49 PM | Link to this

Amen!

By Chris

December 6, 2005 01:56 PM | Link to this

Heck, the NBA has a dress code, paid millionaires not much better than children in some cases, why not schools.

By jim dumond

December 6, 2005 01:57 PM | Link to this

Lisa,

Mines people that place a space in the word de·fense·less :) BIG OLD GRIN

By Bruce Wilcox

December 6, 2005 01:59 PM | Link to this

No problem Lisa and I agree with your position on uniforms, it’s a parents responsibilty and not a schools.

As far as grammar and spelling, I feel that ideas are more important than proper grammar. In a forum like this people write fast and express opinions from their heart, if I took time to double and triple check what I wrote, I’[d forget what I was writing about.

Btw…should that be defensive or defense less? Only kidding.

By jim dumond

December 6, 2005 02:01 PM | Link to this

Chris, If you’ve read the entire thread and still don’t get it. You never will.

By Lisa

December 6, 2005 02:05 PM | Link to this

I guess I ain’t got no education enough. :)

But my kids are good kids that don’t need to wear uniforms.

By Debbie

December 6, 2005 02:14 PM | Link to this

My son is so happy to be in college now where he finally has met some non-slutty girls. When I wondered why he didn’t want to date anybody in high school, his answer was always the same - they all look like sluts. When we would go to his high school baseball games in March, the girls would show up in cropped shirts, skimpy skirts and no socks or stockings and freeze the entire time they were there. At the college games, they show up in warm clothes when it’s cold so I see his point.

By Bruce Wilcox

December 6, 2005 02:15 PM | Link to this

Chris pay any child a million and I’m sure they’ll dress anyway you like.

By Bruce Wilcox

December 6, 2005 02:18 PM | Link to this

Debbie by putting a slut in a uniform would make her non-slutty?

By Lisa

December 6, 2005 02:21 PM | Link to this

There are a lot of girls in high school that don’t dress slutty. When I was at Central Gwinnett last week, most of the girls wore hoodies and jeans.

By Lisa

December 6, 2005 02:22 PM | Link to this

Bruce, you’re right. Look what Brittany Spears did to a Catholic girl uniform in her video.

By jim dumond

December 6, 2005 02:35 PM | Link to this

Where were all these girls when I was in school?

By Chris

December 6, 2005 02:51 PM | Link to this

Hell Jim, why have any rules at all. PO’d at someone, kill them. And btw the millionaires we’re complaining.

By jim dumond

December 6, 2005 03:04 PM | Link to this

I’ll make one last ditch effort to explain it.

Rules (laws) are exactly what I’m talking about. Laws that protect our freedoms, both yours and mine. People that want new laws that strip us of our rights and are happy to give up there’s to make me comply with their thinking aren’t smart enough to realize what they’ve given up.

Now as to the millionaires. I never addressed that question. Obviously you’ve mistaken me for someone else.

By Brad

December 6, 2005 03:22 PM | Link to this

Jim, If you feel that way about America and the Law, go live on your own island where no one can tell you what to do…or protect you, or feed you, or give you shelter, etc…btw the way, the Constitution is not the endall. It’s open for interpretation by bodies like the the Congress…laws are constantly changing…suck it up…freedom in this democracy doesn’t necessarily mean “free to do whatever”…

By Bruce Wilcox

December 6, 2005 03:35 PM | Link to this

Brad a correction, “It’s open for interpretation by bodies like the the Congress”…not true, only the Supreme Court can interpret the Constitution.

By jim dumond

December 6, 2005 03:40 PM | Link to this

Nowhere in the constitution is the right given to the majority to trample the rights of the minority for if it did it would negate the bill of rights.

Think about it my friend for you may find yourself in the minority one day.

By Sam J

December 6, 2005 03:41 PM | Link to this

I agree that anyone who thinks that high school is a big deal is going to have an unhappy adulthood.

If the only way a person can think of to express themselves is by buying whatever fad some retailer wants them to buy, then they don’t have much individuality to express.

There have always been sluts in high school. They just used to be easier to identify. Guys now have to sort through all the un-parented slaves to fashion to find the real tramps. Very inefficient and frustrating, I’m told.

By jim dumond

December 6, 2005 03:43 PM | Link to this

Bruce, I’m afraid Brad just showed his entire knowledge, or lack of, about what the foundations of this great nation were intended to be.

By jim dumond

December 6, 2005 03:52 PM | Link to this

Brad, let me get this straight, because I really do want to understand.

You believe that the government should tell us what to wear?

Son—you need help.

By jim dumond

December 6, 2005 03:54 PM | Link to this

“There have always been sluts in high school.”

Damn, I must have lived a sheltered life.

By Brad

December 6, 2005 04:04 PM | Link to this

I applaude South’s efforts in trying to implement a dress code and challenging the minorities that always point fingers and cry racism to get their way. The school would not have to do this if the parents would act responsibly.

By jim dumond

December 6, 2005 04:07 PM | Link to this

OH, SO WE DO AGREE!!

It’s the parents responsibility.

By Brad

December 6, 2005 04:16 PM | Link to this

My beef is that kids should not be wearing distracting attire to school. Save it for the mall. Kids have a choice to go to the mall and see children expose/express themselves publicly, but they don’t have the choice of attending public school.

By Willa

December 6, 2005 04:20 PM | Link to this

Brad - the dress code is not “against” the minorities! It’s for the little White girls in their micro-mini skirts and their cropped tops that show off their stretch-mark laced stomachs. It’s also for the Bosnian/Croatian/whatever immigrants who came over here and totally embraced the hip-hop culture and dress like fools with the oversized tees, baggy jeans and unlaced Timberlands. If the problem was only about minorities, do you honestly think anyone would care enough to try to implement a uniform? Please!

By jim dumond

December 6, 2005 04:25 PM | Link to this

Brad, You said a mouthful there my friend. And this should make a difference to you.

“they don’t have the choice of attending public school.”

By Brad

December 6, 2005 04:41 PM | Link to this

Willa, I guess I should rephrase that…white girls are in quite the minority at South.

By Sarah

December 6, 2005 04:43 PM | Link to this

It’s amazing how many of these comments have stated that schools should teach, it that it doesn’t matter what the students wear. That idea leaves me speechless! Do ANY of you have teenagers? Have you ever tried to get the attention of a teenaged boy sitting behind a girl whose crack and cleavage are laid bare for his perusal? What about pounding history or math into the brain of the young “lady” offering the wares? or who can’t take her eyes off the buttocks of the young “man” in front of her? Or how about preparing these students for the real world? If we by not correcting their dress lead them to believe that it’s ok, will they not be crippled in their efforts to join the job market? In my work I see daily young women who are unable to interpret the word “modest” in our corporate dress code! Never mind the young men who don’t understand that their hitching gait (necessary to keep their pants from falling down) will forever block them from advancing past an entry level job! Our children need to learn more than just math and literature, and enforcing rules on dress is a simple lesson if we will just do it. Oh wait - there’s another sermon! When is a rule not a rule? When those in authority are too weak or lazy to enforce it …

By AL

December 6, 2005 04:48 PM | Link to this

So Jim, how did you obtain your rights? Do you have children? If so, are they in public schools? And what runs the public schools?

By Willa

December 6, 2005 04:49 PM | Link to this

Sarah - thank you! At least someone gets it!

By Brad

December 6, 2005 04:50 PM | Link to this

I agree Sarah.

Parents should be cracking the wip instead of letting thier children convince them that they are “expressing” themselves. That’s a bunch of bull if I’ve ever heard it, but kids know that some parents will buy it.

By Sarah

December 6, 2005 04:55 PM | Link to this

Willa, you’re welcome. You know, I LOVE teenagers. There is nothing better than seeing them grasp the importance of something real - charity, or the homeless problem, or the AIDS epidemic, or peace. They are growing and learning, and it’s our responsibility to guide them - how else will be they ready to take on reality? (and we all know, thank goodness, that high school is not reality!) It’s a shame that sounds so trite.

By Doesn't Matter

December 6, 2005 04:59 PM | Link to this

I think all of ya’ll need to chill out. First of all, uniforms aren’t going to change the person wearing it. Girls are wearing slutty clothes to get attention and guys wear what the style is this week on MTV. It is not really the guys that are the issue, it is more so what the girls are wearing, or should I say not wearing! But realistically South Gwinnett has been discussing a uniform policy since before I graduated from there, it most likely is NEVER going to happen. Someone will appeal the decision and it will start all over again. I agree with uniforms, I just don’t think it is going to happen. I agree with the person earlier who was discussing Youngblood, though. One p** off parent can get a teacher fired, but hundreds of kids getting in trouble everyday can change nothing. Do you see nothing wrong with the school system?!?!

By Lilburn Parent

December 6, 2005 05:55 PM | Link to this

I am not certain what percentage of parents object to what their kids wear… but I am willing to bet a great deal of parents in Gwinnett county will object to a dress code.

My child attends Parkview H.S. Every year at “open” house kids show up wearing clothing that should not be worn to school. They are with their parents. This implies that the parents don’t have a problem with their dress.

Young girls with very short pants, and thongs showing over the top of their pants every time they bend.

At Swim Atlanta, one parent would arrive daily to pick up his daughter. She regularly wore very short pants, and no underwear. I over heard another parent commenting on it; and that is how I noticed.

Please note the young lady was very attractive, and very popular with the young males. It bothered me that her dad did not seem to notice. I will bet a lot of his friends would notice his “little girl”, wasn’t wearing underwear. I know without a doubt that to him she is his… “little girl.”

My point is that parents need to step up and “parent”. The young girl I used as an example may or may not know that MEN are looking at her “sexuality.”

It is normal for kids to want to wear clothing that may not be appropriate. It takes a “PARENT” to chart the course of what is appropriate, and what is not!

Abercrombie & Fitch would not be able to sell “thongs” for little girls if “parents” did not provide the money, and drive their little girls to the mall.

There is also the parents that live vicariously through their kids… I did not get to do it when I was young… so I am going to allow my kid/s to do it.

By C.R.H.

December 6, 2005 06:54 PM | Link to this

Some people on this blog obviously are not teachers. Students do not have an ABSOLUTE right to “free speech” or “self-expression”…act the fool in my class and see how fast your “right” to be in my classroom dissappears. And yes, I DO have that authority! Public schools are not the place for “self-expression”. Someone brought up the constitution a little while back, go into a coutroom with your sunglasses stuck on top of your head or with some torn up pants and your underwear hanging out and see if the judge tells you to leave his courtroom unitl you can show respect for the court! Same thing with a classroom, it needs to be respected as a place to learn not as a club to hook up with all the other losers who will be living on the taxpayer’s backs!

By Hannah

December 6, 2005 07:41 PM | Link to this

C.R.H. - Amen!!

By Rob

December 6, 2005 07:45 PM | Link to this

Bingo C.R.H.

By jim dumond

December 6, 2005 07:45 PM | Link to this

Dear Al,

So Jim, how did you obtain your rights?

I as fortunate enough to be born in a country that guarantees them.

Do you have children? 35, 30, 15

If so, are they in public schools? Obviously two of them no longer are the third is, became an Eagle Scout at age 14,is very focused and goal driven. I too am very active in Scouting, I enjoy helping guide these young men and watching them develop into productive adults.

And what runs the public schools? Well, I help a bit, how about you, Al? Do you get involved? Do you give of your time? Do you spend endless hours reading laws and procedures regarding education? Do you help draft curriculum? Ever been a charter member of a School council? Ever help draft the bylaws?

By Mikey

December 6, 2005 08:22 PM | Link to this

Jim - don’t Eagle Scouts wear a uniform? How are they able to become free thinkers, artists and poets with those matching cute little outfits on? How well do you think your son would pay attention to you as you help guide these young men if one of them showed up in a tube top and low-rise jeans?

By tater

December 6, 2005 08:23 PM | Link to this

Warning—this is a rambling and mostly pointless post.

Back when I was in school, girls were burning their brassieres and the dudes grew their hair long. Us “Long haired freaky people”(quick—who sang that line?) were chastised by the “man”(aka Mr. Clements the principal)and told we were on the road to perdition.

I, as well as my friends, turned out all right(not bragging but lots of doctors, lawyers and assorted indian chiefs and I went to school in podunk Georgia by the way—-talk about a crappy school!!).

So what is my point-frankly I don’t know!! Oh yea— Some things never change—teenagers will be teenagers—put them in a uniform and they will still find a way to stick it to the man. That is what makes us Americans—where you can still be an individual.

By the way my 18 year old wears A&F and looks like a preppy frat boy—however, he makes me look like a choirboy when I was growing up. No drugs, no cigs, probably drinks a Budweiser or two and likes the girls a liitle too much. But he makes Straight A’s, has a 1400 SAT and is a state champion swimmer. But man is he a rebellious rascal—just ask his teachers.

I love him and wished I had been just like him when I was his age.

So my point—-These are kids—no more no less—give them a break about this clothing business. You are only a kid once—the clothes don’t make the man—the man makes the clothes.

Enough—Peace out—Tater

By Austin

December 6, 2005 09:44 PM | Link to this

Personally, as a student at South Gwinnett, I can’t quite grasp the concept or connection between good grades and clothing. I’ve always learned well under situations where I feel comfortable, including the type of clothing I wear.

Granted, I am in the top 1/6 of my class and have never had any disciplinary, much less dress code, violations in my school career.

But this seems to be a misplaced responsibility. Mr. Badie is right—the responsibility should fall upon the parents, not the school. I know, as a future high school teacher (or so I aspire to be), that I do not want the only purpose of my job to be babysitting.

Parents, up until your child is 18, you have complete and total control over his/her life. If they have a pair of jeans entirely too big for them or a shirt too small, tell them to stop wearing it at school. Or better yet, stop wearing it at all. If your child refuses to listen, burn the clothes. Chances are that you bought it anyway.

Be assertive. Do not let your child get around you. You are the parent. So start acting like it, for the sake of 2500+ kids who really don’t need, nor want a uniform.

By Michael H. Smith

December 7, 2005 12:35 AM | Link to this

Spoken very well Austin.

By jim dumond

December 7, 2005 05:25 AM | Link to this

Yo Mickey,

Scouts wear uniforms its true, however, they are not a requirement. The young men are encouraged to wear the proper uniform it is not mandated.

By jim dumond

December 7, 2005 05:32 AM | Link to this

Long-haired Freaky People …

1971

“The 5 Man Electrical Band.”

chorus;Sign Sign everywhere a sign— Blocking out the scenery breaking my mind— Do this, don’t do that, can’t you read the sign.

By Dave

December 7, 2005 08:14 AM | Link to this

I teach for GCPS - for all of the bleedingheartjohnkerrydowhatfeelsgoodliberals who don’t think that how you dress affects your attitude, come to the hallways of my high school for 10 minutes and see. Let’s be very honest for a moment - the hip-hop culture is not about style, it is about substance…and the substance is one of absolute disrespect for anything of value. Get real.

By Brad

December 7, 2005 08:14 AM | Link to this

“I love him and wished I had been just like him when I was his age.”

Exactly Tater…I believe someone earlier mentioned trying to live through there kids…

By iamateacher

December 7, 2005 08:26 AM | Link to this

I don’t care what the article says or says it proves, uniforms have improved behavior at our school.

By Brad

December 7, 2005 08:29 AM | Link to this

Hmmm….lets recap…so parents posting most likely have kids and the teachers posting most likely have kids…The parents who aren’t teachers seem to be leaning toward free expression through clothes and that clothes don’t change anything…and the parents who are the teachers (i.e. those in the GCPS and at South) seem to agree 100% on the issue that parents are the problem and that tacky clothing and the hip-hop culture absolutely effect the learning environment…now who should we listen to? The people who are actually at the schools and have been around long enough to make such observations maybe…

By iamateacher

December 7, 2005 08:36 AM | Link to this

Think about how difficult it is for a young boy to concentrate when he is looking at a half naked girl.

By Lisa

December 7, 2005 08:40 AM | Link to this

Clothes the kids wear are a side effect not the cause of the disrespect. Parents are the cause of disrespect and low self-esteem. Those parts of kids’ personalities are engrained by the age of 5 - before the kids even get to school. So, is it the school’s responsibility to change that? The schools didn’t change the parents while they were in school.

Perhaps the answer isn’t uniforms, but parenting classes before the kids are born.

By Maybe

December 7, 2005 09:11 AM | Link to this

Brad, re: recap

Having several family members (close) in the teaching profession I can assure you they have been taught to be authoritarian. Being human, and really they are, they tend to form opinions. Those opinions may involve student appearance. In other words if a teacher has a dislike for certain types of apparel they may attempt to exercise their supposed authority over the child wearing it.

Clothing doesn’t make the person. What makes the person is what they think and do. Changing their outward appearance will have little or no effect on their thoughts or actions. Changes in outward actions can only follow on the heels of the renewal of ones mindset. Clothing will not accomplish this.

I could introduce you to people today that dressed “hip� in their day that are now Doctors, lawyers, police officers and judges. These are people you trust your life to everyday. I can also introduce you to suit and ties, much like teachers, that I wouldn’t trust any further than I could throw them

You make the choice as to which you’ll listen. I’ll do the same.

Have a great day.

By jim dumond

December 7, 2005 09:19 AM | Link to this

Ok iamateacher “Think about how difficult it is for a young boy to concentrate when he is looking at a half naked girl.�

Thought about it. Decided no problem on concentration. But exactly what was it you wanted him to concentrate on?

By iamateacher

December 7, 2005 09:25 AM | Link to this

LOL Jim, I would like for them to concentrate on what is being taught in the classroom.

By jim dumond

December 7, 2005 09:38 AM | Link to this

OH, MY BAD

By jim dumond

December 7, 2005 09:42 AM | Link to this

Dave Did you read what you wrote?

“Let’s be very honest for a moment - the hip-hop culture is not about style, it is about substance…”

Indeed it’s not the style. It’s culture. Culture doesn’t change with style. so let the kids wear what they want.

By iamateacher

December 7, 2005 09:46 AM | Link to this

Jim, you are so funny! Actually before our school went to uniforms and we had problems with the tank top, low cut tops and middies, we had a lot of young men who couldn’t stand up to leave the classroom for a few minutes. I am sure that you know what I mean.

By tater

December 7, 2005 09:51 AM | Link to this

Jim—very good.

Brad—not sure if you just dissed me or not—but yea—I wish had of been as funny, witty, athletic, polished, smart…blah, blah, blah —as my little darling. If it makes you feel any better—I am keenly aware of his shortcomings as well…moody, always questioning authority, not reaching his full potential, etc.,etc.,etc.

I work with teenagers everyday and I believe the future will be very bright when these youngsters become adults and “take control”.

Peace out—Tater

By iamateacher

December 7, 2005 10:07 AM | Link to this

Would it surprise you to know that I wear the school uniform 99% of the time. I love khaki pants and polo shirts. It is so easy for me to decide what to wear every morning. I don’t spend as much money on clothes either. Teachers at our school are not required to wear the uniform but the majority of them do.

By tater

December 7, 2005 10:16 AM | Link to this

iamateacher—sorry to be nosey—but why are blogging and not teaching at this time of day? Tater

By jim dumond

December 7, 2005 10:25 AM | Link to this

Thanks Tater,

now here’s one for you.

Who sang it? “Oh, but who are they to judge us Simply because our hair is long”

By tater

December 7, 2005 10:35 AM | Link to this

Jim—

Gone but not forgotten———

Mother, mother There’s too many of you crying Brother, brother, brother There’s far too many of you dying You know we’ve got to find a way To bring some lovin’ here today - Ya

Father, father We don’t need to escalate You see, war is not the answer For only love can conquer hate You know we’ve got to find a way To bring some lovin’ here today

Picket lines and picket signs Don’t punish me with brutality Talk to me, so you can see Oh, what’s going on What’s going on Ya, what’s going on Ah, what’s going on

In the mean time Right on, baby Right on Right on

Father, father, everybody thinks we’re wrong Oh, but who are they to judge us Simply because our hair is long Oh, you know we’ve got to find a way To bring some understanding here today Oh

Picket lines and picket signs Don’t punish me with brutality Talk to me So you can see What’s going on Ya, what’s going on Tell me what’s going on I’ll tell you what’s going on - Uh Right on baby Right on baby

By Brad

December 7, 2005 10:41 AM | Link to this

“There is also the parents that live vicariously through their kids… I did not get to do it when I was young… so I am going to allow my kid/s to do it.”

Here’s the comment I was refering to…guess I was opposing you…I wore A&F (had the sense to choose shirts and pants that were not vulgar or made sexual references and still maintained my “coolness”) when I was in high school and I was a top state swimmer, I made the grades and SAT score and took all those AP classes…and I dated a few ladies might I add…but I never acted up in class…just minded my own business and learned…what I did outside of school was my business…oh yes…obviously my parents got through to me somewhere…note being responsible, respectful, and valuing my education and time at school…it all comes down to the parents…

By jim dumond

December 7, 2005 10:52 AM | Link to this

imateacher,

Indeed—been there done that and skirts were only about knee high.

Tight sweaters were in though.

Imagination is a wonderful thing to a young man.

By Lisa

December 7, 2005 10:56 AM | Link to this

So Brad, if you brag about your child’s accomplishments and personality, you’re living vicariously through them? No, I think not.

I can tell you I wish I would’ve pulled as many A’s as my daughter does, but that’s hindsight. She’s a very good clarinet and saxophone player, do I live through her band enthusiasm? No, but I’m proud of her being as good as she is with both.

I had my four years in high school, and I get to watch her and listen to her experiences, and I get to brag about them. But we are both living our own lives - you couldn’t pay me to go back to those years.

Now if I was pushing her to do all the things that I wished I could’ve done, then you’d be right.

By tater

December 7, 2005 11:01 AM | Link to this

Brad—

“Just to stir this blog back up a little”

I think the dress code proposal is racially motivated. The type of dress that really is at issue at SGHS is “thug attire”. Skimpy dresses can be easily policed—most of them are little white girls—that can just be sent home to change if they are showing too much skin in all the important places.

But with thug attire—who wants to tell a 6’2”-200# black dude you don’t approve of his scarf or droopy fubus. The administrators and teachers are afraid of kids like that and instead of trying to get to know them on a one on one basis—they want to impose draconian rules on everyone.

If the thug wannabes are causing trouble—kick them out of school. Deal with the specific problem, don’t try to avoid the problem by issuing edicts.

SGHS is quickly, if not already, transitioning from a majority white to a majority black school. The cultural shifts in these situations are always difficult. Get tough with the trouble makers individually—-uniform dress ain’t going to fix whats going on at South and other Gwinnett County schools.

Peace out, Tater

By jim dumond

December 7, 2005 11:04 AM | Link to this

Brad, one thing you may be overlooking is that some teenagers are ready to make informed choices. We as parents must encourage them and in so doing accept those choices whether or not we agree with them. Allowing them freedon to make choices and learn from their mistakes will provide them better skills when they’re on their own. The key to this is encouragement, If you consider encouragement and pride by parents to be living vicariously, then I suspect we’re all quilty.

BTW, how many teens have you raised?

By Bruce Wilcox

December 7, 2005 11:26 AM | Link to this

Maybe we should go back to the days of Separate but Equal, after all it’s ‘those’ people who cause all the problems.

Let ‘those’ people go to their own school and the proper children can have their own school. Only then we can take care of ‘Them’ people and don’t forget the ‘Other’ people.

Each have their own culture, ‘Those’, ‘Them’, ‘Other’ and of course the ‘Proper Children’. Why should we mix all, it can only lead to confusion, what is the sense of reaching across the divide, we have to keep what is pure, pure.

Ah the South, stuck in the fifties.

By Brad

December 7, 2005 11:32 AM | Link to this

Tater- I agree that the “gangsters” should be kicked out, but that’s not entirely possible. Unless something drastic (shooting, etc.) occurs students follow a very long list of punishments as issues build up…it’s not just three strikes and your out like the past…it’s more like 10 and then we will have to call you parents…most of the time, the parents don’t even care and claim that the school is racist for taking action…again…kicking kids out is asking too much of the school when the parents cause so many administrative problems…

By Brad

December 7, 2005 11:36 AM | Link to this

Bruce- I guess you really need to be at the school to see what is going on…

By jim dumond

December 7, 2005 11:38 AM | Link to this

Brad, much of the problem lies in NCLB reproting requirements. No school wants to be labeled as persistantly dangerous. To avoid having to report, much is ignored which actually defeats the purpose causing scholls to actually become a much more dangerous environment.

Take it to your congressman.Let’s untie the hands of educators.

By Rick Badie

December 7, 2005 11:48 AM | Link to this

Hey people. Hope all is well. I have tried to keep up with the hundreds of postings regarding everything from Mandisa to school uniforms. Thanks for taking the time to contribute to the blog. You all are the reason the Badie Blog is one of the more popular ones in the Southeast. At least that’s what a grad student who’s doing research on the subject told me the other day. Keep those comments coming. For tomorrow’s column, I am writing about a woman I met in the post office line this morning. She was sending a care package to her nephew, who is in the Marines and serving in Iraq. He’s the only nephew she has. It’s a great story. Hope y’all read it. Meanwhile, I saw this op-ed piece on the Los Angeles Times this morning, and thought that it would provide more food for thought, particularly given the reaction to the column that featured Mandisa. Check it out. Here it is: DEATH AND JUSTICE ‘Thug life’ must be stopped By George J. McKenna III, George J. McKenna III is the assistant superintendent of the Pasadena Unified School District. AS A CAREER educator in urban schools, including 10 years as principal of Washington Preparatory High School, which is in the community where the Crips street gang originated, I have experienced the horrific effect of gang culture and violence in our schools and neighborhoods. I attended more than 20 funerals of children and adults during my tenure as principal, including two students who died on campus and a mother in the neighborhood — all killed by gangbangers. I am haunted by the tragedy of these lives lost.

Almost more sickening than the slaughter itself is society’s tolerance for the commercially lucrative glorification of the “thug life” in movies, clothes and gangsta rap. The devoted educators who work so hard to instill positive values in our children are neutralized by gang violence, drug dealing and disrespect for women that have contaminated our society in the more than 30 years since gangs began intimidating young people who wanted only to learn.

ADVERTISEMENT Today, the corporate sponsors, gangsters and wannabes who romanticize the criminal life in rap are like military recruiters whose slick ads and macho spiels appeal to young men’s lust for excitement. They are responsible for the fear, distrust and cultural decline that gangs inflict on our communities and are indirectly responsible for the exodus of families and children from inner-city schools and neighborhoods.

We need to intervene. Now. Our schools, churches, civic organizations and political leaders must announce loudly, publicly, collaboratively and repeatedly that we will not tolerate the gun-toting, drug-using, women-dehumanizing images and language that rappers and their corporate sponsors promote as the essence of black culture. We must campaign vigorously against the enemies within our communities and those willing to assist our oppressors in their enslavement of our minds.

By iamateacher

December 7, 2005 11:54 AM | Link to this

I could also ask you why you are not working. We have these things called breaks. I teach my first class from 7:30 until 8:15. I have a break until 8:38 before my next class. This class lasts until 9:20. I have another break until 10:10. I teach again until my lunch time from 11:45 until 12:15. I have another short break at 11:15 and then start teaching again at 11:20. No more breaks until school is over for the kids at 3:15. I will be back on the computer until 3:30 when I start working with the afterschool program. I should leave here about 7pm.

By Tater

December 7, 2005 12:10 PM | Link to this

Teacher—

I’m retired(don’t ask—not telling my age).

Peace out-Tater

By Lisa

December 7, 2005 12:18 PM | Link to this

iamateacher,

Thank you for being a teacher.

My father-in-law taught biology until 1980. He retired early because kids didn’t want to learn. Those kids are now the parents. If they didn’t want to learn, where do their kids get support to learn? Unfortunately, it isn’t at home.

By Tater

December 7, 2005 12:19 PM | Link to this

By iamateacher:

December 7, 2005 08:26 AM December 7, 2005 08:36 AM December 7, 2005 09:46 AM December 7, 2005 10:07 AM December 7, 2005 11:54 AM

I take it you don’t work for GCPS or you would be afraid of using the school system’s computer for blogging while at work?

By Manny

December 7, 2005 12:27 PM | Link to this

Tater needs a hobby so he can find something better to do than track someone’s blogging times!

By tater

December 7, 2005 12:49 PM | Link to this

Manny—just trying to figure if teacher works in public or private school.

If in a public school—then imateacher’s praise of uniforms may be relevent to the situation at South.

If in a private school—imateacher’s experiences are not applicable at SGHS. That’s all.

And oh yea, teachers in GCPS are petrified of the school system computer nazi’s.

So what do you think about the uniform debate?

By S Gwinnett ( look at your children)

December 7, 2005 12:59 PM | Link to this

I live in the South Gwinnett District and I pass by the highschool everyday. These kids, both black and white, are just plain “tacky” dressers. I would not send my 10 year old child to school dress like many of them. It’s not the sagging pants or bare midrifts, it’s just bad taste in general.

I’m sure I will have relocated by the time my daughter makes it to highschool. I’m also in favor of school uniforms and it should be for the entire school system. If you want your child to be creative, they should express themselves with writing, reading and arithmetic. If you child is into fashion, she can take home economics or join Drama Club.

By iamateacher

December 7, 2005 01:21 PM | Link to this

I’m sorry that I made a mistake in the times. My response should have read 1:15 to 1:20 instead of 11:15 to 11:20. I do work in the public school system, just not in Gwinnett County. I live in Gwinnett County.

I am blogging during my break times and I didn’t say that I wasn’t at school. I would never do this during class time. My 6th graders would go bonkers if I did.

I would never ask you your age, I am probably older than you. I will tell you that I have been teaching for 33 years. I am still enjoying it or I would be gone.

Note the time on this one. My 5 minute potty break.

By jim dumond

December 7, 2005 01:30 PM | Link to this

The question beggs to be asked who do you think will be paying for the uniforms?

In 2003-2004 21% of the students at SGHS qualified for free or reduced price lunches.

Granted the schools enrollment is lesser than many of the other High schools in Gwinnett at about 2000 students but this would still mean someone other than the parents would have to purchase about 2500 uniforms at about(trust me on this one)$40 per uniform or in other words tax-payers have to cough up about another $100G’s to provide uniforms.

By MMM

December 7, 2005 01:55 PM | Link to this

The smaller the canvas the greater the imagination needed to display uniqueness. Making children wear uniforms is a clearly defined boundary that should be enforceable.

It didn’t work in the Dekalb system because the spineless parents complained too loudly. It works at my children’s charter elementary school because the parents and administration still respect each other. Getting the kids to tuck their shirts in prior to entering the building is something the principal continues to do an a regular basis—-but it is about respecting yourself so it is not wasted effort.

By observant

December 7, 2005 01:58 PM | Link to this

Jim, Have you read the proposed dress code, or are you just continuing to try to stir things up? The proposed dress (which I have checked - it’s on South’swebsite!)is not a “uniform”, but a “standardized dress code” - khaki pants, blue pants, polo shirts, etc. Very easily purchased at your local Walmart. We the taxpayers aren’t footing the bills for their regular clothes. I don’t see how this proposal would suddenly make us have to start.

Check it out: http://cometsonline.org/dresscodeproposal.htm

By Brad

December 7, 2005 01:59 PM | Link to this

Those are definitely old figures my friend…surprised that the county has not changed the online accountability report yet…enrollment is around 2500 this semester, it’s majority minority, and the trend of increasing free/reduced lunches continues.

By Observant

December 7, 2005 02:02 PM | Link to this

Thanks Brad. I meant to point that out as well. Those figures do not accurately reflect South’s current population.

By jim dumond

December 7, 2005 02:09 PM | Link to this

Systen wide GCPS uniforms.

Ok folks let’s look at some more numbers.

135,568 enrolled students

30.9% qualify for free or reduced lunches

So we have 41,891 students we as taxpayers will be required to subsidize uniforms to

Using a conservative figure of $200 per student, uniforms system wide would cost us $8,378,102.00 annually for those that can’t afford them.

Damn, do you realize that at an average cost of $7000 per year per student for educational costs we could provide an education for another 1197 kids?

Where’s the money?

By LWA

December 7, 2005 02:12 PM | Link to this

Jim,

The taxpayers would not have to cough up the money for uniforms. Parents have the money. They usually spend it on expensive designer clothes and tennis shoes while trying to let their children express themselves. You can find uniform pants/tops/skirts at Wal-Mart, Target, JC Penny and official uniform stores.

When my daughter was in Kindergarten, I bought 5 long sleeve shirts, 5 short sleeve shirts (I didn’t want to have to wash during the middle of the week), 2 jumpers, 1 skirt, 1 pair of pants and 2 sweaters. That was it for the entire school year. It was very cost effective.

By Observant

December 7, 2005 02:14 PM | Link to this

Jim, Again, I stress - parents have to clothe their children now. All this dress code proposes is that they buy different clothes! Taxpayers will not have to fund this iniative.

But then, it appears you just love the argument. Argue on! But other Bloggers, please know your tax dollars will not be put to use buying uniforms. Please check the proposal for yourself. Do your own homework and don’t believe everything you read from those dedicated to the fight!

By obvservant

December 7, 2005 02:16 PM | Link to this

Oops! The word is “initiative”

By Lisa

December 7, 2005 02:18 PM | Link to this

So, it’s cheaper for me as a single mom to buy 2 sets of uniforms (one set for each teenager) and then their regular clothes for after school and the weekends.

I’m an accountant and my figures say that’s more expense for me.

And why should my children wear “preppie” clothes because some of their peers don’t know how to dress? (My kids aren’t allow nor do they want to wear hoochie or thug clothes.)

By jim dumond

December 7, 2005 02:22 PM | Link to this

ok guys, so kids are still going to be able to order baggy pants and shirts?

What’s to be gained by that?

If we fail to subsidize we will be quilty of descrimination. All the kid has to say is my parents can’t afford to buy me cloths, what I get is handed down.

Whatcha gonna do boys?

By Brad

December 7, 2005 02:22 PM | Link to this

It’s not preppy…it’s professional…

By observant

December 7, 2005 02:22 PM | Link to this

Lisa,

I wasn’t addressing the expenses. Just that taxpayers won’t have to pay for it. Personally, I will still buy the regular clothes for them to wear after school, just not as much of it.

By observant

December 7, 2005 02:25 PM | Link to this

I see plenty of these kinds of clothes at Goodwill. I can’t imagine there are folks with kids at South who are so poor they can’t buy the from the $1.00 rack at Goodwill.

Whatcha say about that, Jim?

By Lisa

December 7, 2005 02:26 PM | Link to this

It’s preppie - polo shirts and khaki can’t be more preppie than that. Check out your preppie handbook from the 1980’s. Professional is suits.

And if I can’t afford “uniforms” than my kids will be kicked out of school or the taxpayers would have to buy them.

By jim dumond

December 7, 2005 02:27 PM | Link to this

I’d say you don’t have a friggin plan.

Why not just expel anyone too poor to buy cloths that YOU want them to wear?

By LWA

December 7, 2005 02:30 PM | Link to this

You don’t have to buy a separate set of clothes. Why would you fully purchase another set of clothes for weekend wear? There are only 8 days to deal with in a month. That is just approx. 4 more outfits. No more than you have today. You don’t typically see the same people every weekend. Wash/wear/mix/match. After school clothes? You stated that your kids are teenagers. Do they change into after school clothes now? My teenager does not. She is home doing homework in her same school clothes. Even if you purchase separate after school clothes, you would purchase 5 separate outfits for each day???? What happend to sweats and a t-shirt to relax at home?

You save money in the long run. You won’t have to worry about “I just wore that last week and I need to get a new top.” “Let’s go shopping so I can get that new XXX.” “We need to go shopping now that it is winter to get new winter clothes for school.” “Now let’s buy xxxxx.” All of this type of conversation is cut out of the equation.

By Brad

December 7, 2005 02:31 PM | Link to this

exactly…the 1980’s…and for kids…a collared shirt and khaki pant are professional…

By Lisa

December 7, 2005 02:32 PM | Link to this

How do you become a professional kid?

By Lisa

December 7, 2005 02:33 PM | Link to this

My kids wouldn’t wear uniforms after school anymore than I wear my work clothes when I get home. I change a few times. From my work clothes to my workout clothes, and after a shower to jeans or pajamas.

You don’t have “play” clothes?

By Brad

December 7, 2005 02:34 PM | Link to this

I agree LWA…Lisa sounds a little extreme…

By jim dumond

December 7, 2005 02:34 PM | Link to this

LOL,You guy’s are killing me.

Mine was in a private school for 2 years that required uniforms.

Uniforms DO NOT save you any money.

By Brad

December 7, 2005 02:39 PM | Link to this

That’s probably because your kid convinced you that they needed to express themselves every time they wanted clothes for off campus activities and you willingly spent your money. You could tell them to get a job or cut back og giving…heck I worked and payed for a good portion of my wardrobe in high school.

By Lisa

December 7, 2005 02:40 PM | Link to this

Lisa sound a little like “why should the majority pay for the minority.”

I’m an involved band mom at my high school. I’ve been to my kids’ high school. Most of the kids dress appropriately. Leave them alone, only criminals need to be punished and uniforms are punishment.

By Lisa

December 7, 2005 02:42 PM | Link to this

My daughter can’t wait until she’s 16 so she can get a job and get as many clothes as she thinks she wants. But when those bags come in the house, the clothes will be inspected. But she has self-respect, so I’m not too worried.

By jim dumond

December 7, 2005 02:43 PM | Link to this

Nope, think about it my friend.

You going to let a 10 year old urchin run around and play in the dirt wearing a 60 dollar pair of slacks?

I don’t think so.

By LWA

December 7, 2005 02:54 PM | Link to this

Yes, I have play clothes. However, my “home” play clothes are a little cheaper. I may wear them twice a week. Get home at 6:30, put on play clothes, go to bed around 10:30. I think its okay to throw on the next day.

By Austin

December 7, 2005 02:57 PM | Link to this

Brad, I hate to say it, but the polo shirts and khaki pants are considered preppy.

By RC

December 7, 2005 03:14 PM | Link to this

My observation is that those opposed to the uniform are probably liberal, thos in favor are conservative. With that being said let me through this in the liberals face. You said seperation of church and state, no prayer in school with the argument that you can (and should) pray at home and don’t force any disruptive behavior on your kids. OK, fine. You can let your kids dress like thugs and whores at home, but don’t let your child disruptive behavior interfere with my childs learning. And Jim D. get your head out of the sand (or somewhere else) and realize that someone elses child can be your problem someday.

By observant

December 7, 2005 03:17 PM | Link to this

Well folks, I’ve enjoyed the banter. But I’ve had enough.

Jim and Lisa - you guys get on here and lecture, but you’re not willing to listen to the other side. Yet you want everyone to listen to you. I hear your point - uniforms are punishment, your kids are the good kids, I don’t have the $$, etc. I hear you. I also challenge you both to actually review the proposal (Jim, you’ll see there is a “friggin plan”). I know you’ll still feel as you do when you are through, but at least you’ll be able to speak knowledgeably. As stated before, these are regular clothes - not a uniform.

Lisa - in my house we don’t change clothes as often as you do in one day. I do change when I work out, but I shower after that and get into pjs. I’d have to have the workout clothes and pjs no matter what I wore to work!

Bye guys! It’s been fun!

By Tater

December 7, 2005 03:20 PM | Link to this

Hey—this blog is out of control!

What about my thesis that this whole uniform business is racist?

This issue is about a bunch of white people trying to impose thier values, morals and style of dress on other people(mostly black).

Quit avoiding the real issue. Hey Jim, come on—chime in—what do you think—racist or not?

Tater

By Bruce Wilcox

December 7, 2005 03:39 PM | Link to this

Tater I supported your position that it was a racist issue in my separate but equal comment. It is, the white crowd is losing control over Gwinnett, steps must be taken to ensure that doesn’t happen.

Brad wants to even extend it to off school, everybody in neat little uniforms, man I love Gwinnett thinking.

Freedom for all, as long as we agree to follow the dress code.

By Brad

December 7, 2005 03:48 PM | Link to this

Don’t know where you got the idea that I wanted uniforms outside of school???…about the racism issue…well why wouldn’t the white population want to impose these regulations…the test score were high and the violence was lower…with the new population…the trend is lower test scores and more violence…if the trend were the opposite at South… I highly doubt that uniform dress code would exist…

By Brad

December 7, 2005 03:49 PM | Link to this

…proposal for a uniform dress code…

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

December 7, 2005 04:04 PM | Link to this

RC - that was truly a very ignorant statement. 3:14pm - thugs and whores????

Many of “us” liberals are in favor of uniforms, but I didn’t really think it was a political matter.

With all the “Bad” behavior that the Conservatives have been displaying, I would stop using it as a poster child for the way society should live.

Liberal go to church and have moral values, the difference is that we do not throw our religious belief onto others.

By the way, I don’t think any less of you, because you are a conservative. The word doesn’t hold much value to me.

By Bruce Wilcox

December 7, 2005 04:11 PM | Link to this

Brad “That’s probably because your kid convinced you that they needed to express themselves every time they wanted clothes for off campus activities and you willingly spent your money.” Sounds like school uniforms could be used at the malls, off campus activies and more, save money and no free-expression. Just good little soldiers.

By Brad

December 7, 2005 04:17 PM | Link to this

Whatever…I guess you don’t see the point of that comment…

By Bruce Wilcox

December 7, 2005 04:18 PM | Link to this

Solution, Orange Jumpsuits for all, buy them in bulk and save money. Not preppie, not gangster, kind of makes everyone the same, after all isn’t that the whole idea.

And extend it to teachers, maybe a black military uniform, we must have autority, a neat little gSS on the collar. Oh gSS means Gwinnett School System of course.

Maybe we could build a laundry for the schools, bad children would serve time washing jumpsuits, hey even more money saved.

Let’s give it a go?

By jim dumond

December 7, 2005 04:21 PM | Link to this

Finally a real black white issue?

Naw. don’t think so.

Ricks been attempting that one and hasn’t really hooked me yet.

By Willa

December 7, 2005 04:27 PM | Link to this

I think what you have overlooked is that unless we get an 80% approval on all of the returned votes from the parents of current students - it won’t happen!

So, if the community doesn’t want the standardized dress code, they will have voted no. If it passes - that means that the parents CHOSE to have uniforms. It will be interesting to see what happens when the voting results are made public.

The administrative team at South is notorious for not following through on anything - so we may have uniforms for a month next year!

By Shannon

December 7, 2005 04:55 PM | Link to this

Why is dress code an issue? Because a dress code is a rule, then rule is being broken, and that is the problem. So, we let them break that rule, how can anyone enforce another rule? Uniform doesn’t have to mean matching like the post man - it just means being respectful. It happens EVERY day in the corporate world - how many of you go to work in shorts, tank tops and flip flops? Probably due to health concerns, no flip flops ever allowed, etc. The real issue is that students are not following the dress code which is a rule - and if nobody enforces it, then teachers look like fools when it comes to other rules. Get a grip people - this is important. It is important for parents to support the dress code. Otherwise, keep your child at home and teach them yourself.

By Charles

December 7, 2005 05:14 PM | Link to this

It does all come down to parents and respect.

By Rebecca

December 7, 2005 07:06 PM | Link to this

Jim Durmond’s posting about the free/reduced lunch students really points out the problem in Gwinnett County Public Schools. We have gone from being a county of high achievers to being a county of under-achievers. How did high achievers get to be high achievers? By following rules, whether those rules are about doing homework, studying for tests, staying quiet in class, dressing appropriately at work, showing up on time for work, etc. Regardless of your political or religious beliefs, you have to admit that there are under-achievers out there who have not lived up to their potential. If you take a close look at them, you’ll find that many of them have serious issues with following the rules. They have employment terminations due to being tardy, or being insubordinate. Many of these under-achievers have had jail time because they couldn’t follow rules. Felonies will stand in the way of securing many prime jobs. Some just can’t get a good job because they refused to study and therefore are not qualified to do anything other than flip burgers.

To me, the whole dress code flap is just another example of a parent’s philosophy rubbing off on their children. When parents make good choices, their children make good choices. (Yes, I know there are exceptions.) Gwinnett has unfortunately had a huge influx of under-achievers in recent years. This is evidenced by the huge increase in total subsidized meals and the increase in people at poverty level. When children of these under-achievers go to school, they exhibit the same work ethic, or lack thereof, as their parents. Sadly, far too many of these children exhibit the same “Ain’t nobody gonna’ tell me what to do” attitude as their parents. Nobody is going to tell these students how to dress. Mommy and Daddy will see to that.

I find it sad that so many people in Gwinnett seem to think a child’s freedom of expression is more important than teaching that child how to succeed. Part of teaching a child to succeed is teaching him to obey rules and how to make good decisions. Many of these students do not get any guidance in decision-making at home. If our schools don’t teach them how to make good choices, we are wasting every dime we spend teaching them anything else.

Uniforms and dress codes are part of just about every single career choice a child could make. Football player. Doctor. Fireman. McDonalds. Grocery store clerk. Military. Lawyer. Airline pilot. UPS man. Why would anyone think it’s a good idea to teach children that uniforms and dress codes are bad?

By Michael H. Smith

December 7, 2005 07:22 PM | Link to this

Can’t wait to see if you write a column on gangs and the “thug life�, Mr. Badie. Can I goad you perhaps?

By Austin

December 7, 2005 09:51 PM | Link to this

The problem with that, Rebecca, is that it then places the responsibility of teaching morality to the school. That is not the purpose of the school in the least. The teachers are there to give us (the students) facts and equations, not try to help us plot out our lives. Actually, let me revise that a bit. I think it is more the job of elementary school teachers to teach morality than to the high school teachers. Children in elementary school are easily molded. They absorb and accept more than any thick-headed teenager will ever hope to. So if we were going to enforce “life lessons” on anyone, it should be them. As a future high school teacher, I’m going to expect certain qualities in my students. They should already know when it’s acceptable to wear certain clothing just as much as they should already know how to add by the time they reach high school. If they can’t quite grasp those concepts, they don’t belong in my class. I’m not going to waste time teaching them to behave like good boys and girls. My purpose is to teach them the curriculum.

It goes back to the parents. And if they’re incapable of doing their job, then the students are going to have to learn that life is full of listening to your superiors. Teachers, however, are not a part of this equation. They tell me what happened on April 15, 1865 and then make sure I know it. That’s it.

(April 15, 1865, by the way, is the death of Lincoln.)

By iamateacher

December 7, 2005 10:34 PM | Link to this

We have had very few students that could not afford our uniform. We do have a special fund that we use to buy uniforms for those who cannot afford them. The PTO and the teachers have contributed to this fund. I buy my khaki’s at Walmart and my polos from the PTO.

By Rebecca

December 8, 2005 10:12 AM | Link to this

Austin, teaching a child to follow clearly established rules is not teaching morality. It’s just teaching them a basic life skill. How exactly do you think that expecting your students to follow rules is teaching morality?

By Becky

December 8, 2005 02:38 PM | Link to this

Oh, Austin, you are going to find out that it is not as easy as you think. The parents expect us to teach all sorts of things that I think should be the parent’s responsibility. They have convince the BOE and the governments that this is where it should be taught. Good luck with your chosen career. May you be lucky enough to teach in a school with uniforms.

By Cindy

December 9, 2005 11:55 AM | Link to this

Maybe if the stores would start offering decent clothing, we could purchase some.

Its all an issue of the administration, and allowing the students to rule the school.

You can bet if it’s a white kid the policy will be enforced. However, when it comes to ethnic backgrounds, the teachers are afraid to enforce it because of political backlashing, and no support from administration.

By V for Vendetta

December 14, 2005 08:17 AM | Link to this

As a teacher in Gwinnett, I absolutely would support the implementing of a dress code. No butt cracks, no underwear hanging out, no possible gang signs, no cleavage canyons, no hats, no gaudy chains, no inappropriate shirts, etc. But most of all… No teachers afraid to write up students of the opposite sex and no administators wasting time with this crap anymore. I am a huge freedom advocate and personal rights defender, but students do not have certain “rights” when they are in school. If I cant wear shorts and t shirt to teach in, are my “rights” infringed upon? Of course not. Enough with the “rights” BS and statistics, any real teacher will tell you that having uniforms would give us one less thing to worry about.