Home > Gwinnett > Rick Badie / My Opinion > Archives > 2005 > November > 19 > Entry
DEL.ICIO.USTeachers who think they’re above rules need to rethink
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
It’s easy to feel sorry for Ed Youngblood.
Last week, the South Gwinnett High teacher resigned because he showed an R-rated movie to students. The 1998 movie, “Elizabeth,” contains violence and sexuality, but what was equally troubling to school officials was that Youngblood failed to follow procedure.
Local teachers are supposed to submit unapproved instructional materials to a board of students, teachers and parents for review. It’s up to that board to OK or reject them. It can also require teachers to get parental permission before proceeding.
Youngblood did none of the above. He just fired up the old projector (or whatever they call them these days) and let her rip. You’d think he knew better. He’s a veteran educator who, before retiring, had taught for 37 years. He returned to campus this year on a part-time basis to teach British lit and Advanced Placement English.
Parents and students have rallied. Reinstate him, they say. It’s a scenario we’ve seen unfold before, here as well as other school districts in the metropolis. Respected teacher breaks rule. Supporters protest.
Remember Larry “Doc” Neace?
The Dacula High science teacher was fired in May because he docked a student’s grade on an assignment as a reprimand for sleeping in class. The Gwinnett County School Board has a policy that forbids instructors from lowering grades as a form of punishment. He knew about the policy; he just thought it was exempt. He was fired.
It’s easy to side with the teachers in these matters. They assume the role of David to the school administration’s Goliath. We stand up for them because they demandingly engage students and make them want to learn. We want (and desperately need) them in our classrooms. When they break rules, either ignorantly or knowingly, we want to let it slide. To look the other way.
The public can do that. Superintendent J. Alvin Wilbanks and his Cabinet can’t. Actually, they can, but what if they did? What if they let select employees skirt procedure while others suffer consequences? There’d be no order. Only anarchy.
I’m no teacher, but I’d imagine a basic covenant of the profession is that you ask permission before you bring outside materials into the classroom. To do otherwise is unconscionable, akin to my falsifying quotes or people in my column.
Rules and regulations serve a purpose. When they aren’t adhered to, and people are permitted to pick and choose which ones they follow, the system suffers.
Youngblood told AJC Gwinnett News that, because of his resignation, the students had been let down. Yeah, I feel sorry for them. He let them down.
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Comments
Commenting is now closed for this entry.
By Dave Oliver
November 19, 2005 04:37 PM | Link to this
Mr. Youngblood is getting just what he deserves. For some reason the Baby Boomer generation think they are above all rules and regulations. Let me tell all of them that are not, and should not expect to be treated anyway but FAIR. Follow the rules and your will be treated fair. Mr. Wilbanks was hired to enforce the rules along with making sure the children of Gwinnett County receive an excellent education. He is enforcing the rules concerning R rated movies, and as for as we all should be concerned, thats all there is, ther ain’t no more. Bye Bye Mr. Youngblood
By Michael H. Smith
November 19, 2005 07:04 PM | Link to this
Yup, the rules are the rules. Too bad J. Alvin Wilbanks doesn’t enforce immigration laws. Mexico would protest the deluges of returning Mexican citizens, Vicente’ Fox would have to find another economy to integrate with, um, “STEAL� – to replace the one he lost and refuses to create in Mexico –, the United States would no longer have a huge immigration problem – might actually gain a real sense of diversity –, Gwinnett would lose a barrio and the need of a village, GCPS would lose some school overcrowding and J. Alvin could probably then retire early, a national hero. Hmmm….
J. Alvin for Pres?
On topic within the scope of this blog: so long as fire’em one, fire’em all, is applied to the rules without exceptions the Neace incident will probably pass. The SPLOSH(sic) bonus will probably not pass next times voter confidence rule B.o.E.
After all, voters too, have rules.
By Daniel
November 19, 2005 07:44 PM | Link to this
While I don’t disagree that there should be some sort of punishment for Mr. Youngblood and Doc Neace, I feel that the punishments were way too harsh for the nature of the violations. Both could have been suspended without pay and let well enough alone. Neither should have been a terminable offense. Although it is not possible to unshow the movie, if all students were at least 17, they met the minimum requirements set forth by MPAA, which has no legal backing, to see the movie. As far as Doc Neace, administration could have simply overridden the grade. We in Gwinnett County cannot continue to afford to lose good teachers over matters as trivial as what happened to these teachers.
By Kyle Tait
November 19, 2005 07:52 PM | Link to this
So you would prefer children get a mediocre education, just as long as everyone follows the rules? That’s absurd. If you think our country’s future is in good hands with leaders who received a sub-par education from sub-par teachers, I recommend you re-evaluate that belief. Now I’m not suggesting that he is above the rules in any way. What I am suggesting is that our school systems simply cannot have rules that get rid of the best teachers when they are trying to do their job to the best of their ability.
By Michael H. Smith
November 19, 2005 09:36 PM | Link to this
Oh this one is going to be interesting Mr. Badie two thumbs up, two thumbs down already. The rule hawks and the rule doves. Two who say rules have to be followed that’s all there is to it. Two who are not suggesting the rules be ignored, maybe just bend the heck out of them a wee bit. You know, for the greater good of education.
Admittedly Doc Neace was bothersome for me, in a matter of which rule would finally rule. This case hit a sore spot because too many football players make it through school by having all the rules bent for them. Graduating, getting scholarships and degrees all by the thread of a jock strap, in a society that values the pigskin gotten by any means, more than the sheepskin earned through hard work and playing by all the unbending rules.
Perhaps therein, the greatest lesson of all has been taught. In that no matter how good you are, even if you are considered the best of the bests, at some point in life the rules will be applied to you.
By Joe
November 19, 2005 10:02 PM | Link to this
I am not a big fan of Wilbanks. In my opinion he is responsible for a lot of the overcrowding in the Gwinnett schools. That said, this teacher Youngblood probably should not have been fired. However, good teacher or not, if you screw up take it like a man and admit your mistake. If a student messes up should he ignore it? Showing a movie in class with gratuitous sex and violence without giving the students a chance to opt out is wrong.
By Brooke McDaniel
November 19, 2005 11:08 PM | Link to this
Nobody here claimed to be above the rules. School officials are required to show documentation of rules and regulations when asked for them. The principal of South Gwinnett could not show documentation of a rule that states teachers cannot show R rated movies, whether there is one or not.
Not to say that because Youngblood is a good, well respected teacher he should get special treatment. In any case where any teacher is being fired, far more investigation should be put in place.
One comment should not be able to get a teacher fired.
And we wonder why students get mediocre education.
By Marcus Spencer
November 19, 2005 11:29 PM | Link to this
My name is Marcus Spencer and I’m pretty much the angry former student leading the charge. I have to admit that Mr. Badie has a point that is valid and one that you will find many people share. This is a public school and Wilbanks, like it or not, has to set precedence. You cannot ignore policy. Rules are there for a reason people. The men who run this show are intelligent, experienced, and not a bunch of fire-breathing demons that we would like to picture them as.
The obvious arguments here are: Youngblood was a great teacher. He is well respected and well liked.The kids were 17 and older. They could have left. He should not have been fired. We need good teachers. You’re damn right parents and students are going to rally behind him. Don’t misjudge this man though. You are in a position that is a main distibutor of information to the public Mr. Badie. Ed Youngblood never once asked anyone to stand up and help him. Not once. I, we, requested his permission to stand up for what we feel is right. He granted it mainly because he feels it is our job to do what we feel is right.
You’ve heard the arguments, the angry shouts. Let me clue you in on the intelligence and ideals presented here. I personally believe that Youngblood should have been reprimanded. A written letter of severe reprimand. That was one of three possible punishments for the greivance. The other two were termination and non-renewal of contract at the end of the 05-06 school year. Regardless, punishment is punishment.
Let us talk about Wilbanks being obligated in enforicing policies. Look up the rule about showing R-rated movies online. Tell me what you find. What? Can’t find the “official” rule or policy? No, you can’t. The policy is not written. I has no official title or name given or decided upon by the Gwinnett County Board of Education. Oh, it is a verbal understanding. It is real. You can be disciplined for breaking one of these verbal contractural agreements. Do you know what the County is going to say when it is questioned about this? Mr. Youngblood did not have an official contract, he resigned, therefore he is not entitled to a hearing, or any further action from the county. Ouch, that is a bit cold isn’t it?
How about this? Mr. Youngblood offered to apologize in writing to the parent(yes one parent he was informed of complaining) to the students and anyone else he offended. He was denied by the county official present. He had five minutes to decide whether to retire or be fired.
OK. The policy is not written. Youngblood took it like a man and offered to apologize for his mistake. Besides, he isn’t the one demanding this. We are. This man was not offered due process because he did not have a contract and frankly, because it is hard as hell to prove that a teacher needs to be fired for showing a movie, considering the policy is not even written down. Georgia is a right to work state. However, due process is a constitutional right. A week was all it took for the supposed fair investigation to be done fully and fairly protecting the rights of the employee, of the man himself. Look under GCPS approved Policies, section G, code, article, whatever it is GAEA to make up your own mind. If you are going to support Wilbanks in his duty to enforce policy, then at least help us ask him to make sure he doesn’t make any exceptions for himself and the administration. It isn’t right, it really isn’t.
We are a highly informed little group. High AP scores on every subject. Great colleges across the nation. People articulate enough who could spit in your face and insult your mother and you would thank them for the underserved compliment. Don’t mistake us for some angry redneck yahoo’s who couldn’t tell you kind of animal litigation is when asked. Gwinnett County stepped on the wrong David this time. If you look around him you’ll notice a few thousand people armed with knowledge and democracy preparing to swarm Goliath. Don’t forget that it is the civic duty of the people to ensure that our government is working for us. I can’t say Dekalb county is with that whole extra 15 million dollar thing. The public school system is trying to push around the very people it was created to serve. We are educated. We are united. We are the people. Don’t expect to see some of these board members on the victory card in the next election. If we can’t win here, we will make sure the steps are taken to ensure the rights and freedoms of every teacher, and every student are honestly guaranteed.
I will be happy to answer any questions, any rebuttle,and any attack, with further information, logic, idealogy, and law. We aren’t some radical group blinded by its own agenda and egotism. We are an honest collection of people who think that the citizens of Gwinnett County need to stand up and make their views heard and respected as they should be in a Democracy.
Marcus
By Michael C. Springer
November 20, 2005 12:19 AM | Link to this
My name is Michael Springer and I am in the leadership for Youngblood’s reinstatement.
So you think Youngblood is at fault here? You’re right. But over and over and over again many seem to misunderstand what we the students are truly fighting for. It’s not at all about whether or not he broke a rule. Haven’t you read your own newspaper Mr. Badie? We are fighting this school system because of the decision it made as a punishment to Mr. Youngblood. Do you think, in your heart of hearts, thought of mind, and gut of instinct, that the decision made was one that was decided over time, over evidence, and with careful judgement? Do you think the punishment correlates to the degree of crime Youngblood commited? I certainly think not. If you think some movie is worth the forced resignation of 37 years worth of teaching, you had better get another job because that is ridiculous. No person shall be punished for such trivial matters and in such a crude, cold, and blunt way.
Youngblood was given less than 5 hours to move out those 37 years worth of belongings from his classroom. He wasn’t even allowed to step foot on campus the next day. So if you were Mr. Simmons (Principal) and had to force his students out of the classroom while watching them sob and object to the whole situation, would you be able to go home and get a good night sleep? He obviously made a difference. Did you ever make such a difference Badie? Do you know ANYONE who has?
By Jonathan Townley
November 20, 2005 06:05 AM | Link to this
I’m also involved with the reinstatement effort. Right up there with Marcus.
Marcus was absolutely correct when he said that there is a lack of policy concerning this specific issue. True, there has always been the spoken rule of obtaining permission slips. But that’s all it is. A general understanding. Nothing official.
Let’s take a step back and look at the conduct of the school administration and BOE members. A day or two following Mr. Youngblood’s resignation, the school administration denied having forced him out, saying that he chose to go on his own. In reality, a man named Brook Whitemire (Full-Time Director of Elementary Staffing for Gwinnett County) showed up after school one day and told Youngblood he had five minutes to leave. True, Youngblood offered to send written apologies, but he was denied that choice. Next, we have Sloan Roach all over the papers (and on TV, too) saying that clearly, Youngblood violated county policy by showing that movie violated . Really? Well where is this policy? Oh wait, didn’t someone formally ask Mr. Simmons for a written copy of that policy? Wasn’t Simmons not able to produce? If it really exists, why couldn’t it be found? I’m sure there is a perfectly rational reason for this. Perhaps someone ripped that page out of Mr. Simmons’ copy of the Employee Handbook. Sure, whatever. Where’s your proof, Roach? Talk is cheap.
The county violated its own rules (whenever they actually existed) by not giving Youngblood due process. He deserves reinstatement for this at least.
By jim dumond
November 20, 2005 06:27 AM | Link to this
Who should be fired?
a) A teacher that showed an “R� rated movie to a senior honors class. b) A teacher that expects students to be awake in class? c) A school administrator that takes full responsibility for falsified state reports re: school violence. d) A school Board that would refuse to fire (c)
By jim dumond
November 20, 2005 07:20 AM | Link to this
It’s easy to understand why teachers don’t think they must follow the rules when school administration set such shining examples and when policies are not enforced evenly.
The question at hand is not if Mr. Youngblood violated Gwinnett School policies “IFFA� and “IKB.� Indeed it would appear he did. The question then becomes did the punishment fit the crime? Again, it would appear Mr. Wilbanks was acting well within his jurisdiction.
Mr. Youngblood could have received any one of several sanctions for his indiscretion and had he had a contract he may well have not received termination. The lesson to be learned here is that dedicated teachers that retire and come back to teach don’t do so without a contract protecting their interest.
My question, however, is has Mr. Wilbanks considered the consequences of his actions?
Voters will soon be asked to re-elect two board members and to extend a badly needed SPLOST. Has he jeopardized the future of our children with his continued jackboot tactics of intimidation? Will voters continue to support this administration or will they speak at the polls crippling our current building program?
Voters can be vindictive, and while I personally hope they are when it comes to re-electing the two BOE members. I can’t help but hope the rumblings I’m already hearing opposing the future SPLOST are put aside for the sake of our children.
Not long ago, Gwinnett voters could have fired Mr. Wilbanks, how unfortunate those laws were changed. How unfortunate for our children, since the only way of reeling him in will be through defeating the tax extension that is needed to assure our children’s future.
By Bruce Wilcox
November 20, 2005 09:10 AM | Link to this
Didn’t Mr. Youngblood show this very same film before, followed all the rules, dotted all the i’s and submitted all the needed paper work in just the right number of duplicates? If I’m correct, why should he have bothered a second time?
Next, I believe ONE parent raised the alarm, ONE. Now who is really dicating the policy, ONE parent?
In this day and age when teaching only to pass a certain test is far more important than teaching students to think for themselves, attempts at creative teaching methods are restricted.
As far as SPLOST, or Slush Fund, as I like to call it, does the supporter realize more goes to parks, roads, public safety than libraries who receive the least. Giving the BOE millions to divvy up behind closed doors is not what I consider the best use of my tax money.
Inflexible rules, harsh punishments, restictions on creative methods applied to teachers. Add a minority of complaining parents and a Board of Education that is completely out of touch with reality. Mix them all together and what do you have, a state that is ranked at the bottom nationally on education. Yes, please keep following the rules and we will remain at the very bottom of the rankings.
By notso
November 20, 2005 09:54 AM | Link to this
A couple of things there, Bruce. Actually Gwinnett is near the top of the bottom, or in other words the some of the best of the worst. Scoring above average nationally. And the school SPLOST is separate from the county wide SPLOST and is primarily used for school construction
By Michael C. Springer
November 20, 2005 10:15 AM | Link to this
Mr. Wilcox, you couldn’t be any more right. Creative teaching is praised left and right becuase there is so few who do it. Most stick to that big fat AKS (Academic Knowlege and Skills) book because they are afraid to stray too far and get into trouble OR it’s too much trouble to bring it in because the CDC, FBI, and CIA have to examen and observe the materials for the next 12 years to make sure it is OK to show to HONORS SENIOR high school students. By the way, I’ll have you know that this movie WAS shown before by Mr. Youngblood the previous year without problem AND an additional teacher IN THE SAME SCHOOL showed the same movie without problem. Is this right? So what that he “got caught.” He got caught and his job and reputation was slain for it. What?? Great job Wilbanks. Yet again, you put us down with the bad decisions you think will help the county.
I am glad the BOE are elected officials because we won’t be seeing some of them real soon. When called upon for help, Radloff stated that she must speak to her staff before talking to her constituents. What? Why? She can’t make her own decisions? Does she need to be told what to say? Odd, we elected her? Or the Superintendent’s Office to speak for her?
By Michael H. Smith
November 20, 2005 10:50 AM | Link to this
1) Excuse please, SAT scores are not a good canon to use in ranking schools. 2) You’re right Mr. Dumond, this voter is not going to vote to renew the SPLOSH(sic) because of several issue: a) B.o.E. giving J. Alvin a bonus on the heels of the last SPLOST approval was an insult. b) the vocal support from certain B.o.E. members in regards to paying for illegal alien’s education. Read the 14th amendment again please, it is a two-edged sword. Equal protection also means equal prosecution of “any person�. c) Private meetings, which, according to the state AG violates the law a.k.a. the “rules�!
So long as fire’em one, fire’em all, is applied to the rules without exceptions. Perhaps therein, the greatest lesson of all has been taught. In that no matter how good you are, even if you are considered the best of the bests, at some point in life the rules will be applied to you.
After all B.o.E, voters too, have rules.
By Jennifer Bridwell
November 20, 2005 11:11 AM | Link to this
The fact that Mr. Youngblood has so many supporters, despite the fact that he never asked any of us to defend him, speaks very highly of him as a teacher. He has impacted so many lives in such a positive way. In my opinion, the punishment that Mr. Youngblood has been given does not fit the crime. I can honestly say that I am sure that none of these “adults” (or close to it) that saw this movie in Youngblood’s English class were scarred for life by the “R” rating. Give this highly respected teacher a break!
By jim dumond
November 20, 2005 12:03 PM | Link to this
@Michael H. Smith
All valid points. I was suggesting we fire the BoE and not a tax program that would undoubtedly affect the quality of education of students in Gwinnett.
Regardless of as if we agree on this point, I commend you for doing what you believe right. Rest assured our votes will cancel each other though when it comes to the SPLOST.
By Marcus Spencer
November 20, 2005 12:32 PM | Link to this
I would like to see the BoE make a smart decision at the Board meeting on Dec. 8th. Those who vote to reinstate Youngblood, and or to punish and investigate the administration will get my vote in the next election. Those who vote against Youngblood will be served a nice dish of voter retribution. I will do all I can to make sure those names are remembered and spoken against. When it comes to this the outcome of the Dec.8th board meeting is not important. The Gwinnett County BoE will correct themselves very quickly, or we will have a new set of faces that has just witnessed what happens, when you run the system the BS way that our current adminstration does.
I honestly don’t know enough about SPLOST at the moment to comment, but I want to see what the deal is.
By Lisa
November 20, 2005 12:44 PM | Link to this
I think the key words that we want is ZERO TOLERANCE. The board has adopted zero tolerance for everything instead of write-ups like in corporate America. Why not protest against zero tolerance instead of protesting one teacher at a time?
By jim dumond
November 20, 2005 01:04 PM | Link to this
@Marcus, The SPLOST (special purpose local option sales tax) is that 1% tax added to everything purchased in Gwinnett County for school funding. That funding has paid to purchase property for new school, it has built new schools, paid for additions to existing buildings and paid for technological upgrades in many of our older schools.
Until quite recently to do so without incurring any debt. However, with the new lease purchase crap the school system came up with a couple of years ago we now are incurring debt without referendum. A good case of this would be the $30,000,000 invested in new central offices for the school system over on old P’Tree Rd. in Suwannee.
Perhaps I should just shut up. Looks like I’m making a substantial case against renewing it.
By Marcus Spencer
November 20, 2005 01:15 PM | Link to this
Would you like to try and fault these people without specific evidence against them? They are firmly rooted in their power. It takes a slip like this to give us any grounds to oust the Board. It has to be through some legal grounds or we will have too little support and too not enough grounds for discontent.
By Marcus Spencer
November 20, 2005 01:16 PM | Link to this
said grounds a few times didn’t I? jeez
By jim dumond
November 20, 2005 01:18 PM | Link to this
Oh, and did I mention the reason for coming up with the lease program was because the SPLOST was already running about $300 million dollars short of projected collections?
By Michael C. Springer
November 20, 2005 02:17 PM | Link to this
At any time, the citizens can vote to rid the SPLOST. It was created by the citizens, it can damn well be detroyed in the same way. So what exactly are you (everyone) trying to imply about the SPLOST fund? Do you think it has to do with the BoE?
And I don’t think we are bullseye here yet. We don’t need to go after the board until they mess up (at the board meeting.) Right now, we need to go after the administration who made poor decisions in this entire dispute. If the board finds a way to support its administration (which in all honesty I believe they will do just because Radloff and Murphy have been there so long they love their superintendent of the year finalist so much) then I too will fight to ensure they do not regain the election seat the next time around.
By Marcus Spencer
November 20, 2005 02:57 PM | Link to this
Are they up for re-election in 06’?
By Jason R.
November 20, 2005 02:59 PM | Link to this
Elizabeth is a damn good movie. You’ll feel like a new person after watching it.
By Jonathan Townley
November 20, 2005 04:27 PM | Link to this
One of the main problems I see concerning all of this is that when the government causes problems (which appears to be inevitable), their solution is always more government. Or “this policy sucks. Let’s make a new one.” How can the solution to a problem be more of the problem itself?
Oh hell. Just privatize the whole damned thing and be done with it. Let those who want it pay for it and let those who don’t like the way one school is run send their children to another school.
The free market works so well for the economy. Don’t we vote with our dollars? What logical reason is there to doubt its validity in the business of education?
By Marcus Spencer
November 20, 2005 04:32 PM | Link to this
to answer my own question. Yes. Radloff and McClure are up for reelection next yaer. Radloff has been on the Board since 1973. I suppose it is our duty to follow their policy on respecting tenure and make sure she has time to spend at home in 07.
By Marcus Spencer
November 20, 2005 04:34 PM | Link to this
Private schools really are the best option. The best I could see for public schools is to make them solely run by the state.
By Dave Oliver
November 20, 2005 06:48 PM | Link to this
Ho HUM. Marcus all your arguments are politically motivated. I suggest you read the rules and put yourself in the shoes of the Gwinnett School Board and Mr. Wilbanks before you go off half cocked AGAIN with your accusations. The only way to get rid of any of the above is with the vote. Use it and please button up your lip. You do not really know what you are speaking to. Yes Wilbanks is appointed by the folks you vote for, assuming you are old enough to vote.
By Leia
November 20, 2005 06:56 PM | Link to this
Well, if we’re going to fire everybody for not adhering to the rules as mandated by Gwinnett County, why don’t we get rid of the administrative team that approved Doc Neace’s syllabi without reading them? All Gwinnett County teachers are required to submit copies of their syllabi to their department chairperson, who, in turn, submits the syllabi for approval to the administrative team. Clearly the administrative team at Dacula either approved his disciplinary consequences that were stated on the syllabi, or they didn’t even read the darn thing!
Secondly, why don’t we fire the administrative team at South that allowed Mr. Youngblood and another teacher who shall remain nameless, to show this same movie last year? Was the movie more hard-core this year? No, the fact remains that he had a disgruntled, spoiled brat of a student in his class who was unhappy with her grade and went home crying to Mommy. Mommy was “outraged” and complained to the county.
Miss Spoiled Brat didn’t think it would get Mr. Youngblood fired, but, oh well - maybe now she’ll get the A she wants, since she now has a substitute teacher!
Let’s be real here - Mr. Youngblood did deserve a reprimand, but, some of you are acting like he committed a crime in front of the students.
By jim dumond
November 20, 2005 07:11 PM | Link to this
Let’s just set the record straight.
Dan Seckinger and Robert McClure’s terms expire in December 2006.
Boyce, Radloff and Mary K’s terms don’t expire until December 2008.
By Michael C. Springer
November 20, 2005 07:25 PM | Link to this
Dan Oliver, I want to clear something real quick before this gets ugly. You need not jump to a conclusion as quickly as you have. In defense of Marcus, he has done a lot to aid in this fight. You have taken the immature route to insulting his intelligence, age, and position in this process. I ask that you to keep it closed for you have nothing intelligent to add with your condescending, non-conducive, counteracting ridiculous talk. Choose your words wisely lilliputian and either fight with us or keep it shut. We do not need resistance especially by people who have no idea what they are saying and do not know the facts or have done the research as we have. Now I sound condescending since I have to set your ridiculous talk straight. Need a gripe session? Punch a pillow.
By Marcus Spencer
November 20, 2005 08:21 PM | Link to this
My motives are a bit political. They have to be. I would like you to cite the rule that states a teacher can and must be fired for showing a R-rated film without permission from a review commitee. Give me something that refutes any accusation I made. Show me that the county administrators followed procedure. Show how this man was given due process. Back your opinions with fact and give me specific evidence of Ed Youngblood being properly investigated. Then I will “button my [lips].”
By jim dumond
November 20, 2005 09:06 PM | Link to this
Marcus,
I believe Mr. Youngblood violated Gwinnett School policies “IFFA� and “IKB.� these policies are available at the GCPS web site under school Board policies.
But please don’t shut up. Your voice needs to be heard.
By Marcus Spencer
November 20, 2005 09:18 PM | Link to this
Hey, those policies aren’t specific to the movie rules and penalties. If you know anything about law, you know that for something like this to happen you have to be pretty precise. They aren’t written. We have parents who met with Mr. Simmons and have his statement that the policies are not written. The IFAA is meant to deal with internet specifics. We have done our research with legal advisement. You brought up good ideas though. I started out looking at those and asking if they could be grounds for what happened. They aren’t.
By Marcus Spencer
November 20, 2005 09:19 PM | Link to this
Hey, those policies aren’t specific to the movie rules and penalties. If you know anything about law, you know that for something like this to happen you have to be pretty precise. They aren’t written. We have parents who met with Mr. Simmons and have his statement that the policies are not written. The IFB is meant to deal with internet specifics. We have done our research with legal advisement. You brought up good ideas though. I started out looking at those and asking if they could be grounds for what happened. They aren’t.
By Marcus Spencer
November 20, 2005 09:21 PM | Link to this
the second post is the right one, I had cited the wrong policy the first time haha. I didn’t mean to post the whole thing…sorry guys.
By Michael C. Springer
November 20, 2005 09:26 PM | Link to this
Jim, thank you for your involvement in this. May I ask where you are from and who you are affiliated with? We would like it if you came to the Dec. 8th Board Meeting.
By jim dumond
November 21, 2005 01:57 AM | Link to this
Gentlemen, Though I doubt you’ll listen. IKB 2 (c) There shall be study materials and other learning aids available from which a reasonable amount of data pertaining to all aspects of the issue should be obtained. Such materials should be approved following the procedure in Policy IFAA.
IFB 4. Where the teaching of controversial issues involves use of supplemental materials, the approval for use of those materials should follow guidelines in procedure IFAA for Selection of “Supplemental Materials”.
Now let’s explore IFFA. The Board shall provide a wide range of instructional materials including all levels of difficulty, diversity of appeal, and presentation of a variety of points of view. The process for selection and reconsideration of instructional materials shall include both system representatives and community members.
By jim dumond
November 21, 2005 04:52 AM | Link to this
oops my bad.
should read IKB 4
By Marcus Spencer
November 21, 2005 05:26 AM | Link to this
Jim ,I was not able to view those specifics you have listed here. I would like to know where you have found them. I can tell you that the laws still are not specific enough. Granted, the county has been ousting teachers for years on similiar grounds. I think I stated my argument unclearly concerning the lack of policies and followed procedure. I must acknowledge these laws, considering you are presenting them right in front of me. The IFB policies on the Gwinnett County School Board of Education website does not outline what you have showed me. It only shows the internet guidlines. I thought I posted a rather lengthy explanation of the laws when you initially pointed them out.
Like I mentioned before, My guess when it comes to arguing law it is always a point to make(if available) that no current policy or rule specifically outlines or states whatever in question. In this case, in view of all the policy blocks against Mr. Youngblood, it is important, legally to present a specific fault in current rule and so forth. I’m trying to argue that it is irresponsible of the administration to force resignation over unclear statutes that in any case require due process. I think you showing everyone the laws makes a good argument for the lack of clarity and guidline for dealing with situations such as this.
By jim dumond
November 21, 2005 07:25 AM | Link to this
That is strange since that’s where I pulled them from. Cut and paste this link to go directly to the page they came from.
Best of luck.
http://www.gwinnett.k12.ga.us/polproc.nsf/64fb974176047f9a85256a9b00723284/5daecc74d4d93a5a852568a1004ed2ea?OpenDocument
http://www.gwinnett.k12.ga.us/polproc.nsf/64fb974176047f9a85256a9b00723284/ba2d56868a9fffbe852565c2007550ca?OpenDocument
By Rebecca
November 21, 2005 07:46 AM | Link to this
Before I decided to homeschool my children, I fought very hard over several issues at GCPS, mostly safety issues. Every time I failed to get resolution at the school level, I contacted the Board of Education. Oddly, every time I contacted them, I got the same answer: “We don’t have a policy regarding that; it’s up to each individual school to set their own policies.” I approached BOE at least 5 times with issues and got that same answer every time. I’m just very surprised that the BOE has a policy about ANYTHING!
My children will never go back to GCPS. Those of you who are upset over the firing of Nease and the resignation of Youngblood should put your money where your mouth is, so to speak. Pull your children out of GCPS and educate them yourself. Knowing how many “good” students are being withdrawn in favor of homeschooling, I can only imagine what type of environment Gwinnett’s schools will be within a few years.
Rebecca
By jim dumond
November 21, 2005 07:51 AM | Link to this
@Marcus, you might find IKB 5 of interest
By jim dumond
November 21, 2005 07:54 AM | Link to this
It might prove interesting to know if the school system actually followed their own policies in regard to this matter.
By Leia
November 21, 2005 08:01 AM | Link to this
Rebecca - I am a Gwinnett county teacher, and I consider myself highly qualified and very effective at what I do. It is definitely your choice to homeschool your children, but, don’t for one second believe that the only children who are being pulled out of public schools and being homeschooled are the “good” kids! Many of the “bad” kids are being pulled out and being “homeschooled” too - before they get kicked out of regular school and end up at the GIVE center or jail.
Like I said - I’m very qualified at what I do, but, I do not think that I would be able to teach my own child science at the level his science teacher can. Hence, I would never attempt to keep him at home with me so that I could give him a subpar education in the areas in which I’m not proficient.
I teach wonderful students, and I enjoy them. Please don’t perpetuate the myth that homeschooled children are “good” and my students are not. I have had homeschooled students come into high school after being at home for grades K - 8, who are so far behind academically and socially that it is pathetic.
It’s your choice to educate your students in the manner you wish, but, do not think that your child is receiving a superior “education” because you’re the only one teaching him.
By MovedAway
November 21, 2005 08:13 AM | Link to this
Gwinnett County Schools have much bigger problems than what is happening here. Our family has a previous student who is now fighting addictions. The exposure to drugs, he has told us, was at school every hour, every day. We have met hundreds of families in this process, as well. Nice kids..nice families. We hear of this all the time.Our other son’s truck broke down so he drove his father’s truck to school(so he would not miss school) for two weeks. He registered it at the attendance office with the color, make, model, and student ID number. He did not know the full tag number at the office so he gave them part of the number. Within two days, our son, who never once had a discipline issue, was an honor student, multi sport lettermen, found his truck pulled out backward by a towtruck out of his spot and located at the tow yard. Talking about encouraging kids good efforts! Why don’t we let these teachers sit through one of those interogating discipline panels? Perhaps we could turn GCPS into AKS boot camp? Line em up…march em through..Hope a few make it..Blah, blah, I know..I am not talking about letting these kids get away with things. I am talking about REALLY teaching them what matters, not some over repeated, redundent prefab standards crap. I would never enroll my kids there again. One of our kids even took pictures of a teacher at a concert downtown trashed. What an example! It goes on and on, this danged movie these kids watched is the least of concerns GCPS officals has.
By Leia
November 21, 2005 08:37 AM | Link to this
MovedAway - you make a very cogent point! Your son’s consequence (getting his truck towed) did not fit the crime ((not know the full tag number). But, at least he wasn’t kicked out of school like Mr. Youngblood!
By Marcus Spencer
November 21, 2005 08:58 AM | Link to this
Jim, I was able to see the IFAA before hand, but I promise you that the many, many times I have gone over the entirety of the policies I wasn’t able to find the first link you gave. I was able to find the policy, but by no means that detailed. I still feel the same, but I would like to talk to you more openly and freely. You seem to have a pretty neutral opinion on this. I would like to continue this productive discussion. email at animemedicus@gmail.com
By J. Morrill
November 21, 2005 09:25 AM | Link to this
You are right Rick, too many teachers think they can do whatever they please and get away with it because they have “authority” over our children while they are at school. If I wanted my children to see such sexually explicit scenes from a movie, I would have allowed them to see Elizabeth at home but I don’t so I didn’t. The school is not the place for viewing a movie like that regardless of it’s historical relevance.
By Reece Stone
November 21, 2005 09:32 AM | Link to this
I’ve seen and watched the postings(often just ramblings)here and believe that all of the talk and squawk is primarily deflection.
The most important factor that I see as a non-parent is this, The State of Georgia is consistently at the bottom of all educational rankings nationwide. If we’re to ever rise above this shame then we need many, many more teachers like Mr. Youngblood. The petty local politics try to push all schools to the “norm”, while ignoring the harm and damage done to this state by their arrogance.
When you demand that all follow the rules, no matter the merit, you’re giving Adolf Eichmann a huge smile whilst in hell.
Addendum:
Mr. Spencer should you decide to run for one of the open seats on this Board, contact me and I will assist in any manner possible.
By Charles Doppelheuer
November 21, 2005 09:41 AM | Link to this
Well J Morill…the students in the class were all high school seniors. They aren’t exactly “children” that need to be protected from a little nudity in a British film. These kids are going to be in college or employed next year. Soon enough, these so called “children” will be nearly independent adults making difficult decisions for themselves. Education is not purely an ends in and of it self, but a preparation to continue on in life. If school isn’t a place to learn, what place is?
By Reece Stone
November 21, 2005 10:05 AM | Link to this
Bravo Mr. Doppelheuer!
You clearly understand what so many don’t.
School = textbook
Church = Bible
School /=/ Church
By Charles Doppelheuer
November 21, 2005 10:12 AM | Link to this
I was lucky enough to have the privelege of being taught by Mr. Youngblood for my AP English course last year. I watched the movie Elizabeth and it’s a great film that senior students are more than capable of watching. If people think that a teacher should be fired for showing a film without parental permission (note, that man’s never shown a movie in class without asking the students first) they might consider what they’ll be sending their children to when they leave for university. I’m currently at Vanderbilt University, and amazingly enough, we’re actually treated as adults, yet only one year has passed since our senior year in high school. Essentially, in my mind, the issue at hand is not the letter of the policy, but the spirit. Yes, technically Ed Youngblood violated a policy, but in spirit, the policy did not have a place in this decision. Let the teachers teach, and let the students learn.
By Dave Oliver
November 21, 2005 11:36 AM | Link to this
Mr. Springer: I do choose my words wisely and everything I have said stands. You are a bunch of immature kids trying to protect a wrong doer. Trying to rationalize breaking rules is always taken on by those with an ax to grind. So be careful, you might just be biting off more than you can chew. If you guys/girls think that a 17/18 year old is mature, do I have news for alll of you.
By me
November 21, 2005 01:10 PM | Link to this
I don’t know about the South Gwinnett teacher, but in the case of Doc Neace, you don’t know all the facts. I do. And you are wrong in his case.
By Lisa
November 21, 2005 01:29 PM | Link to this
Please stop assuming all these seniors were 17 or older. My daughter and at least one of her friends will be 16 for the first few months of their senior year.
The law says that I’m responsible for her until she is 18.
With both those stated, yes - give me a permission slip for watching a R rated movie in high school. I know she’s getting the same skin on MTV but I can turn the tv off when she’s home.
By Bill Wright II
November 21, 2005 02:17 PM | Link to this
My first question, has he/she habitualy done this. Yes, then he/she got what they asked for. NO, then I think you better think again. Anyone that is so narrow mind and wearing blinders like some of these statements show, I’m real concern about. I bet they are the ones who throw the baby out with the bath water.
By Marcus Spencer
November 21, 2005 02:59 PM | Link to this
Mr. Oliver, I personally find that your tact in calling out Michael Springer as immature because he is only 18, is probably about as unsound and immature as an any argument can get. How long are lazy uninformed “adults” going to hide behind the irrational motto that because I am older I am right. Experience does not necessarily breed wisdom. Your belief that policy superceedes quality education condemns you as ignorant as anyone else who believes the sludge that Wilbanks spoonfeeds his supporters.
Let me implore you to put down the television remote and pick up a book called The Federalist Papers. Hopefully you have heard of the men who wrote these letters of advice. I’m sure you are a “Proud American”. Learn what that should truly mean sir. Accepting Wilbank’s, or any other elected man’s, adjudicature simply because “thats all there is” is a grievous insult to the men and the principles that our country was built upon. I personally feel that it is not only my right, but my obligation as an American to stand up and speak out against what I feel is wrong.
How dare you personally attack my friend for standing up and defending another person against your unwarranted, and frankly childish harassment?? I had no intention of replying to your asinine and baseless accusations. Acknowledging pathetic and incongruous methods such as the ones employed by Mr. Oliver only serves to give them credence. It is a waste of time better spent.
I’m giving this sad, timeless theatric, attention for three reasons. First. I will not stand for my friends being attacked for defending my beliefs, politics, and statements. I didn’t humor your little play so you attacked the guy who responded for the sake of another. What kind of responsible adult thrusts their own insecurities on an idealistic, spirited young man?
Two. To make an example of the kind of defense and lack of accountability that we are going to be faced with as we we try and fight for what we believe in. If you present a group of intelligent, spirited, and educated young men and women with such a laughable excuse for a rebuttal or position, you will summarily be presented with, if at all, a laughable, entertaining dismisal.
Third. I have been forced to keep my more heated opinions and frustrations to myself for the sake of better sense, judgement and responsibility. When someone provides flawed, benign, propaganda as sound reasoning and criticism, I feel it is safe to express a bit of my curbed outrage to those who wronged a great man and group of senior honors/AP students. He was the best possible teacher to prepare them for college. He isn’t some convict or preacher. These are the things that should matter, not the bureaucratic jargon that forced him out.
For those of you that would like to continue to have relative, intelligent discussion and argument over this issue I would love for you to email me with your opinions. It doesn’t matter if you are for or against what we are standing for. Any sensible democratic discussion is for the betterment of all.
animemedicus@gmail.com
Marcus
By Bruce Wilcox
November 21, 2005 03:11 PM | Link to this
” If you guys/girls think that a 17/18 year old is mature, do I have news for all of you.” Really Mr. Olive, military recruiters roam our high school campuses signing up immature guys/girls, many of these immature children are now tried as adults. Where do YOU draw the line?
I pointed out along with several others that this teacher as well as a fellow teacher followed all the rules last year and the film was shown. This year one whiny parent felt her/his immature babe in arms just could not handle a historical movie that a small part of it contained some nudity and violence.
Because of ONE the rest of the students suffer and a respected teacher loses his job? Someday the immature grow up, when is that Mr. Olive?
By notso
November 21, 2005 03:42 PM | Link to this
Yo guy’s, I don’t know what’s wrong with all these old farts (and I am one)
You youngsters have every right to pursue this thing, regardless if I think you’re right or wrong.
I think people just get wrapped up in their own ideals, and opinions of what’s right and wrong. They forget that many of the people that have died so we can enjoy these freedoms weren’t any older than you are.
My advise—“Take it to the limit�
By Marcus Spencer
November 21, 2005 03:58 PM | Link to this
Hey Reece Stone. Let’s talk. Not necessarily about that, but we need to talk. I can’t find your firm number online, other than a DUI in ILL. link haha. I don’t need help with that. Email me at animemedicus@gmail.com
By Michael C. Springer
November 21, 2005 04:27 PM | Link to this
To all you parents who feel offended by the fact that your child was shown such a movie, get a grip. Your child is about to go to a university that probably REQUIRES you to see such a movie. And for you, the parent of a 16 year old senior, what does that have to do with anything? These students had the option of leaving the classroom since Mr. Youngblood openly said that they could leave. Your child and all the kids in SENIOR classes need to get a life because mommy and daddy won’t be able to save them when the professor fails them for refusing to see a movie. If they were freshmen, that is a completely different story (though Romeo and Juliet was shown in my high school in the 9th grade with BLATANT sexuality.)
About the homeschool issue and the teacher defending teachers: to the teacher, I am so glad you are capable of your job. But you have seemed to stumble across the wrong forum. This is about punishment fitting the crime. Lisa, your child could also turn the TV off at school as well. Walk out of the class and go to the media center and read a book on World War II if that so suits her (or you.) These seniors were told ahead of time that they were watching a movie and what it would be about. As HONORS students and SENIORS about to go to college (or some profession), they need to be able to make their own decisions. Lisa, will you be telling your 16 year old child what he or she is to wear tomorrow? What about when he or she has the choice to drink alcohol NEXT YEAR? Not so much control eh? then teach him or her NOW that making wise decions that may go against your morals is vital to not only pleasing yourself, but for your family. Youngblood made this blatant. Now he can see (and the rest of the world since this has hit international news) that Gwinnett County has immature brats who can’t decide whether if a movie is not appropriate to him or her. It’s funny Lisa because you think that since you don’t pay for your child’s education now that you have more control over what he or she does. Then next year when you might as well be paying $30,000 a year for her or him to party and live it up since she can’t obviously make her own decisions.
And Mr. Oliver, I have nothing to say to you. You have made yourself look like an idiot. That’s speaks for itself.
Anyone want to talk or clarify something? I’m available 24 hours. :-)
mcspringer@thegalaxyweb.com
MICHAEL C. SPRINGER
By Michael C. Springer
November 21, 2005 05:03 PM | Link to this
I want to apologize. I completely went off track and I did not mean to insult (if I did) any of the people I spoke of in the last post. I think my anger just overlapped from Oliver and I took it the wrong direction. I have nothing against homeschoolers nor teacher in this “great” system. I express my apologies for such immature actions and hope they don’t deter support for Youngblood since this is what it’s for.
By notso
November 21, 2005 05:20 PM | Link to this
Nothing wrong with demonstrating passion for something you believe in. People that take offense to that aren’t worth apologizing to.
By Former student all for firing
November 21, 2005 07:36 PM | Link to this
I was a student of Ed Youngblood four years ago, and I applaud his resignation. He was a horrible teacher; he was unfair to women, anti-semitic, mean-spirited, and generally offensive. More than one comment left his lips about the values of Hitler and grades mysteriously changed between the final report and the transcript on both students he liked, and on those of women, Jews, and other such detested people. I will say that I was surpised such an offense did him in,, but I will also be the first to say that it was NOT the first any only complaint filed against this HATEFUL man.
By Tori
November 21, 2005 08:17 PM | Link to this
I would like to say that Mr. Oliver underestimates the power of the youth supporting Mr. Youngblood. We’re not just a bunch of stupid blind children. Even if we are “only 17/18”, or in my case almost 16, we are intelligent, and Mr. Oliver undermimes the intelligence of all of us. So what if we are young? Just because you are older doesn’t mean we are stupid. I am not saying that the wisdom of our elders is not useful sometimes, but on the opposite end of the spectrum, the fresh ideas of the youth have repeatedly led to progress in the past. It absolutely infuriates me when adults are unwilling to listen to us because they assume that because of our age we don’t know what we are talking about.
Mr. Youngblood is an amazing man who deserves to teach. The students deserve to learn from him. Gwinnett County can not afford to lose such an excellent teacher. It’s a travesty that, after 37 years, he is kicked to the curb with a “so long, don’t let the door hit you on the way out”. I myself was not in Youngblood’s class but knew him through the Scholar’s Bowl team that he coached. You could be in his room for five minutes and in that span of time you had learned what an amazing teacher he was, and hoped dearly (as I did) that you were put in his class as a senior.
Mr. Oliver should have been there the day that Youngblood came back to collect his things. Students were openly crying as they helped him take posters off the wall and put them in garbage bags. Everyone wanted a poster or a book or some small momento of Mr. Youngblood. Students made shirts and pins. Mabye then Mr. Oliver could have realized how strongly we feel about this.
Just because something’s a rule doesn’t make it right. Society needs to place more emphasis on and reward the good things done rather than attack the small bad things. Apparently one rather trivial matter is enough to condemn a man even after 37 years of excellent teaching.
By jim dumond
November 22, 2005 09:06 AM | Link to this
ZERO tolerance? Damn straight!
So when’s the people that allowed a non-custodial parent to check a student out and disappear going to be fired? (or allowed to resign)
By Michael C. Springer
November 22, 2005 05:31 PM | Link to this
Wow. I must say that that comment about Youngblood being against Jews, Women, and others of the sort has got to be the funniest ever said about him. That has got to be the most outrageous thing I have ever heard. You sound just like the girl who ran to her mommy protesting Mr. Youngblood’s video. You sound like you did poorly and are angry at HIM because you could not get good grades in his class. The girl that told on Youngblood just recently failed an essay in his class before getting the chance to get him back.
Next time, try to support fact since opinion and emotions tend to blind such facts.