Get Schooled

By Robert

August 23, 2005 12:22 PM | Link to this

What a silly, silly thing…. Yes, students should read. But, how can a school (or a teacher) ensure that a particular student really does read 25 books during the course of a year? Rules like this are STUPID if there is no real way to monitor them.

Last year in my school, the administration put this burden on the homeroom teacher. We were threatened in every faculty members that our homeroom kids had to read 25 books and show documentation that they did (yeah, right). I did take the time to get my homeroom kids to right down what they read - which was a feat in and of itself.

What happened? NOTHING! At the end of the year the administration “forgot” about this requirement and “forgot” about all of the threats that they made to us. We wasted our time and the students time with this BS.

By Me

August 23, 2005 01:03 PM | Link to this

I like the requirement, it’s pretty easy for my kid. What I don’t like is when teachers set certain requirements, that basically form a book list. My kid’s teacher says the books have to be a minimum of 200 pages for 6th graders. I’m going to take it up with her, because if he reads a 150 page book and a bunch of 200 page books, the average will still be 200. I don’t like that she’s dismissing alot of good classics that are 100+ pages long, but I’m sure she’s trying to avoid the junk reading. I’m sure he’ll end up reading the books he wants to anyway, even if they’re less than 200 pages.

By SWC

August 23, 2005 01:08 PM | Link to this

This is unrealistic - I don’t know what these “educators” are thinking. With the exception of the most avid readers, 12 books a year is much more reasonable - which works out to one book every two weeks during the school year. Even that is a lot of books - as quantity does not equal quality. I would much rather see fewer books, with an emphasis on the classics. These books should be read as part of the curriculum - read and discussed in the classroom. I see that the new “GPS” standards for Language Arts are based on California standards. I wasn’t aware that California was such a paragon of educational excellence. I’d like to see Kathy Cox give us a list of the 25 books she plans to read this year (in 180 days) and then test her on them. Bet she can’t do it.

By Me

August 23, 2005 01:11 PM | Link to this

SWC, right. Agree that the requirement is too high for the general population. The school said textbooks can count for no more than 2 of the books. But, still, it’s an awful lot especially in the upper grades where the books get thicker.

By PW

August 23, 2005 01:19 PM | Link to this

What is wrong with you people? Requiring students to read is not a was of time or bs? Some of the comments were actually coming from people hired to TEACH our children.

Absolutely frightening. You don’t have a problem with them playing 25 different video games over the course of a year but 25 books is just too much. This is exactly the reason why my grandson is being taught at home.

By Teacher

August 23, 2005 01:19 PM | Link to this

Wow! Acquiring good reading skills, like good dribbling skills or cooking skills, takes practice. Thats what the 25 book thing is about. It’s only a goal…a goal that has the best interests of students at heart. Study after study has proven that our kids are not achieving success because they can’t read effectively. If a child can’t read, they don’t have the tools they need to do well in most of their classes, on any standardized tests, or in life itself. So what if it can’t really be evaluated? Isn’t it a good goal?

By Me

August 23, 2005 01:34 PM | Link to this

“You don’t have a problem with them playing 25 different video games over the course of a year but 25 books is just too much.” Reading a 200 page book takes more than an hour or two. Video games are much less time-intensive in my house. I think the minimum is set too high for most kids. My kid isn’t going to have problems with meeting, though. He’s a sneaky reader and will surpass the goal. I still think the goal is high. There’s about 36 weeks in a school year, right? Are the 25 limited to the school year, or are summer books included to? He read 6 books this summer, but one was less than 200 pages I think. Most of them were 300+ pages. 2 books a month doesn’t sound bad at all and it’s still a reach for some kids, especially those that don’t enjoy reading. But, if the goal is 25 books in 9 months, that’s a bit high.

By Me

August 23, 2005 01:43 PM | Link to this

I probably figure it wrong. 1 book every 2 weeks, or 2 a month, seems like a Great Plan for everyone. The kids that like reading will go beyond, the kids that don’t can still meet goal, and not start hating Reading even more than than they already do.

That’s one of my pet peeves. Take a kid that is addicted to reading, make him fill out tons of inane logs, take tons of stupid tests to see if he really read the book, and then establish a goal for him. Take a kid that hates to read, establish a goal, make him fill out tons of inane logs, take tons of stupid tests to see if he really read the book, and then establish the same goal. Both kids are going to have issues with the school’s idea of “Reading”. But if you set a realistic goal for both kids, allow them to be their individualistic selves, and discuss their reading with them, you’re helping them both. I personally loath Reading Logs, and love Reading Journals. I keep a comp book going back and forth with my kid on what he’s reading. It’s funny to look at the one from 2nd grade and such, now that he’s in 6th. I can also tell you how many books my kid read in 2nd grade, because he babbled about them in the Journal!

By Jake

August 23, 2005 01:44 PM | Link to this

The biggest problem here is the ‘middle and high school’ target. It may be too late, way too late. Start taking your children to the library when they are 3 or 4 to pick out their own books. Continue this practice through elementary school and you will create a reading habit. My daughter, now 14, will read a book or more over the weekend as I drive her to and from soccer and band and other activities. She reads at least a book a week, over and above her school reading, because SHE WANTS TO!

By Me

August 23, 2005 01:56 PM | Link to this

Parents of high school and middle school kids, how many books a year does your child read? 6th grade, he reads 3-5 books a month that I know of. If he starts two books at once, he reads more. He sneaks and reads late at night though, usually without my knowledge. I’ve caught him a few times, but don’t really want to punish for reading. So it might be higher. He really really really loves books, apparently.

What are your strategies for getting your kid to read more? I don’t try to get him to read more. I do try to stop the 2 books at once thing, though. I help him pick out books he might like to read. He handles most of it on his own. In elementary school, he loved Magic Treehouse books. I had a hard time getting him to move beyond those books into other books. We found some books that were funny, science fiction, spooky, etc. So, we made a short list and he started on that, and it really opened him up to everything beyond Magic Treehouse.

And the common parent dilemma, how to you handle junk-food reading? Not much junkfood here, but I would give him a book list if necessary. I don’t consider magazines, video game guides, or comic books real reading. He can read those as much as he’d like, but they’re not associated with Reading at all to us.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

August 23, 2005 01:59 PM | Link to this

Twenty-Five books a year are not enough!

I love the Accelerated Readers program offered at my child’s school. They set goals every 9 weeks to accumulate points for a party. The kids love it and it makes them read. The thing I love most about this program is that they must pass a test to achieve their goals and receive points. The test helps them with reading comprehension. My daughter must have read 50 books or more last year and she exceeded the reading goal.

Twenty-five books is nothing for a kindergartner. My only suggestion is to find books about topics your child enjoys. My daughter enjoys the “Series of Unfortunate Eventsâ€?, “Harry Potterâ€?, etc… She loves so many different authors that it is hard for me to name them all, I know when she was in 3rd grade, she loved Beverly Cleary. She has also spent lot’s of time reading the Bible Stories.

We are not an unhealthy snack family, so snacking while reading is not an issue.

By Me

August 23, 2005 02:00 PM | Link to this

Jake, same here. I have problems with him taking books into grocery stores and such though. At least, he tries. I’m not letting him walk around like a zombie with his face buried in pages. He needs to look up to avoid people, walls, small critters, etc. He reads in the car, though. If he could fit in the grocery cart and read, I think he’d be so happy to go to the store with me.

By Me

August 23, 2005 02:09 PM | Link to this

Accelerated Reader, forgot about that. For kids that are reading on grade level, it seems a great tool. For my kid, in 5th, we really struggled to find stuff on the list that was within his level (10.5-12.5) and interesting. I think it’s going to be easier now that he’s in middle though. I really think it’s best for early elementary grades, and not much more. If she’s in K now, see how you feel when she’s older and reading above level.

I can’t tell you how many times we’ve both been reprimanded by the school for him doing a book report on something non-AR. It may even be on the High School list, but it’s non-AR at the elementary level. The AR program is pretty much the basis for my entire hatred of any reading “list”. They should be suggestions, not limitations.

Hehe. Snacking. :)

By Tessa

August 23, 2005 04:07 PM | Link to this

Another ridiculous Georgia requirement. 25 books. So kids will pick shorter works instead of longer since they have to reach a number goal instead of a time goal.

Here’s a new slogan for GA DOE:

“Georgia Public Schools - Quantity Over Quality!”

By Concerned Parent

August 23, 2005 04:32 PM | Link to this

Who cares? Is reading Harry Potter several times, part of the 25 works….The School Systems are becoming more ignorant everyday.

By Linda R.

August 23, 2005 04:48 PM | Link to this

My son is a high schooler who loves reading. He likely does not read 25 books a year any longer… the course work at school tends to require quite a bit of reading.

We have struggled with a good work/play balance. He became so stressed with school work that he started to “melt down.”

Some of the classes tend to require a lot of reading… literature, social studies, science. There may be other subjects that require lots of reading, but I can’t think of any others.

Finally, the middle and high schoolers are reading books that are more complicated and have lots more pages. So 25 books may not be reasonable for them. It may be reasonable if you count the books that they are required to read for subjects like literature.

By College Educator

August 23, 2005 04:48 PM | Link to this

As a colleague of mine said, “In higher education reading and writing are the coin of the realm. If a student can’t do those two things, they’re in the wrong place.” While I understand the frustration associated with the record keeping aspect of this type of program, the simple fact of the matter is that if a student can be self motivated to read by the time they attempt college they will be severely handicapped in terms of their ability to keep up with what’s going on in the classroom.

By Book lover

August 24, 2005 08:26 AM | Link to this

The 25-book rule and other mandatory reading programs have been around for a few years, and they helped destroy my child’s emerging love of reading. She was forced to read books from a particular list or of a particular length. When she was younger, she loved to read and to have us read to her. She enjoyed trips to the library and the bookstore, but no more. Reading, thanks to the school system, turned into yet another assigned task, a chore. This is heartbreaking to me since I am a lifelong reader and still plow through a book or two a week. I’m not sure what purpose forced reading or “reading class” is supposed to serve. I guess it makes the folks in the school system appear to be “doing” something and appeases some parents.

By Me

August 24, 2005 08:42 AM | Link to this

Book lover, That’s exactly what I’m trying to avoid with my son. This has only resulted in trouble at school, bad grades for non-booklist reports, etc. It’s not that he’s reading comic books. He’s reading books like Lovely Bones and Curious Incident that won’t be on any elementary list. He’s reading Terry Pratchett, but those books are nowhere on the Middle School AR list. We’ll fight to the bitter end for his right to read whatever he wants, but the schools don’t seem to get it.

By Karen Armsby

August 24, 2005 09:17 AM | Link to this

Good reading skills are the key to academic success, and 25 books a year is nothing!

When my now 23 year old was in 2nd grade and I was PTA pres. that year, the principal came to me with an idea for a reading incentive program that a teacher in Iowa (or one of those middle states) had developed in his school. We looked at his idea then developed our own “READ TREK” program, that was a completely voluntary multi-year reading incentive program organized and run by our volunteer parents in cooperation with the teachers.

There were 9 levels, based on the 9 planets and I used poster paper and spray paint in my driveway to create the planets, then laminated them and hung them around the walls in the cafeteria. The students that wanted to participate supplied us with one of their school pictures and we created little astronauts with their names on them. Each level required reading 25 books to reach the next level. When they began reading we placed their astronaut on that planet level. They received small prizes that PTA purchased when they finished their 25 books. The cost of the program was very minimal.

The great thing about our program is that it was designed to encourage the slow or poor readers to participate with even the best readers because each student read books on his own grade level that the teacher approved beforehand. This also ensured that the good readers weren’t reading books that were too easy for them and racing through the program.

The students had their own Read Trek folders and listed the books read in the folder. When they finished a book, they first had to give a little book report to their parents at home, who then intialed the title & author entry.

Once a week one of us volunteer PTA parents would come to each classroom at a time arranged with the teacher, and we’d ask if anyone had books to report to us. Then we’d take two chairs into the hall and we had a list of questions to ask about the title, author, plot, the characters, and comprehension questions about the story. Each report took about 5 minutes, sometimes longer if it was a really good book that the student enjoyed and wanted to tell everything!

We kept a running list of students and total books read and reported, and levels they had completed, and when each 25 had been read and reported to us, we turned the names and level into the principal.

Each week the principal would announce the list of students and what level or planet they had completed and we would move their astronauts to the next level. The kids LOVED having their names announced, and seeing their astronauts on the next planet. We had a big prize when they completed the entire program, which could take them a year or all K-5.

Of course there were the brainy kids that raced through the planets and then their parents started complaining about what was next. So we created “BEYOND THE STARS’ with fancy rocket ships (again made from poster paper and spray paint and laminated) for each level that the astronauts travelled on.

Our READ TREK program was a great success, and I hope it still exists in some form. We had at least 70% participation in most classes, which is pretty impressive for a voluntary program!

So do I think a requirement of 25 books a year is too much? NO

By Bruce

August 24, 2005 09:23 AM | Link to this

Yes it is hard to read 25 books a year, if you have poor reading skills or worse none at all. Reading has become a lost skill,quite frequently poorly taught, and replaced for many with the allure of television, and increasingly the internet, (example, this blog). However ask yourself this question, how many times in the last year has an adult in your home sat down and read a book.

Reading must become a priority if you want to do it well. If you find reading hard then it’s probably because you haven’t learned the reading skills required, probably because your teachers didn’t teach it, or it was not important enough to learn, or your lazy.

I want to add one more touch of reality in a definition, Teachers; in this sense includes both adults and other children, and includes such things as television, and radio. What most of us tend to forget is that we are all educated by those things that affect one or more of our senses.

By Vermin8

August 24, 2005 09:34 AM | Link to this

I often see proposals to increase the amount of phys ed time for schoolchildren - I rarely see anyone object and most people enthusiastically support it.

Now I’m seeing a proposal to increase time spend reading and there is more objection than support. All of the arguments against the mandatory reading can be used against exercise (ie, imposing on time, mandatory programs can turn children against the activity - many sports haters I know quote gym class as the reason).

What is our educational system for? I thought we were supposed to teach kids to read and write?

By Eve

August 24, 2005 10:05 AM | Link to this

Speaking as a parent, the 25 books a year thing sounds good on the surface. In fact, my high schooler just received a booklist. The problem I have with this concerns MY book lists in high school. In Honors English we had to read 25 books per year and complete book reports on each one. For the most part, I read the books and did the reports; however, 25 years later, I remember very little about most of the books I read. These books were the “classics”. Actually, I have re-read a couple out of curiousity since I became an adult (when they came up on my kid’s booklist).

I was an avid reader as a child; you know, the kid who was walking around with a book stuck in her face ALL THE TIME. I can’t say if reading the 25 books really helped me. Maybe it helped the kids more who didn’t like to read. My kid is not a big lover of books despite her parents efforts, so I’m hoping this booklist idea will help instill in her some (rather tardy) appreciation of books.

By RF

August 24, 2005 10:11 AM | Link to this

Until we make our kids put down the video games and tv remotes, they’re not going to read anything. TV is passive and much more entertaining. If parents were making kids read like they should, then there wouldn’t be ridiculous rules from the state to try and increase reading amounts and levels. Unfortunately, getting kids to sit down with the books is only the beginning of the battle. They look at the pages, but don’t picture the scene or even try to understand the words in front of them. Parents, PLEASE make your kids read and READ WITH THEM all the way through school. Reading is the most basic skill, without which kids will become unmotivated welfare mooching adults. Whether it’s 25 or 50 books a year won’t matter unless we all work together to get our kids to read actively both at school AND at home.

By Brynda

August 24, 2005 10:16 AM | Link to this

When I was a kid growing up in New York City in the 50’s and 60’s I loved going to the library and reading.I couldn’t wait to get my library card. At that time you were only allowed 10 books a week. I would struggle home carrying these books(no backpacks back in those days)through traffic, on the bus and on packed subways trains. By the middle of the week I was finished and headed back to the library for more. My parents were people who barely had elementary school education and 8 children. They encouraged us to read-thus encouraging us to learn. Sure we had a tv-but we were only allowed to watch tv from 7:30pm till 8:30pm. Then we had to get ready for bed at 9:00pm. Our tv was regulated by our parents and they sat down and watched these shows with us.When I had my children. I exposed them to book very early in their lives. I read to them. I didn’t allow tv and when they were allowed to watch it was shows like Sesame Street, Reading Rainbow, Electric Company, Mr. Rogers and Nova, etc. I stressed justlike my parents did that in books you are allowed to live many different lives and emotions. You get to use your imagination and develope your character. But parents have got to love to read in order to pass this on to their children. Take away the Game Boy, Play Station, videos, tv, cable, XBox-whatever-and get back to the basics. 25 books-piece of cake:)

By SWC

August 24, 2005 10:26 AM | Link to this

My son is in 6th grade in “middle school”. He is beyond the age of putting astronaut photos on posters. He has an hour a day of “language arts” and another hour of “reading”. He will also take a “connection” course in writing at some point. That is a lot of time devoted to reading and writing. If they are required to read 25 books, it should be part of the curriculum. My son leaves for school at 7:10 and doesn’t get home until 4:30. He can’t read on the bus because he gets carsick. He is a very talented athlete and spends a lot of time pursing that part of his life. He is a straight A student. Reading 25 books at home is impossible unless he were to give up his athletics. It is also pointless: When I went to school we had “English” for 40 minutes a day. We did not have time to read much beyond what was assigned by the school. We read the classics - The Odyssey, Jane Eyre, Shakespeare, Chaucer, Poetry and the like. We read from those books nightly as part of our homework assignments. We all got a terrific education, and most of my friends are now successful writers. We did not read 25 books a year! This is just bureaucratic silliness, like the AR program which won’t allow children to choose books above their reading level. My son was stuck reading “Magic Treehouse” books because of that requirement and we did not enjoy them. They are not examples of good literature, merely formulaic books that took historical events and turned them into a book. Our children need freedom to grow, not artificial boundaries set up by bureaucrats.

By RF

August 24, 2005 10:33 AM | Link to this

Thank you Brynda for doing that. I know lots of parents who share their love of reading with their children. Unfortunately, the test scores also prove that many do not. Be vigilant parents!!

By Bruce

August 24, 2005 10:51 AM | Link to this

Now to answer the questions posed at the beginning: Parents of high school and middle school kids, how many books a year does your child read? My Daughter who is in high school reads 52 plus books a year, this does not include all the homework papers that all those little angles write, and she has to grade. She’s the teacher. The question did not ask about elementary school, but the only other child I have in school is in 4th grade, and I don’t know exactly how many books he read last year about one a week maybe a little less. Since his pace has picked up recently I expect more this year. What are your strategies for getting your kid to read more? Reading together has become a family activity, both silently and out loud to each other. And the common parent dilemma, how to you handle junk-food reading? By limiting it, I am both the parent and the adult. Do you encourage it because at least your child is reading? No see previous answer. How do you put some more substance in the diet? The hard way, I have done my best at not stifling or squashing his natural curiosity, it’s been painful at times. Last but not least is the one question that begs asking but was not, how many books a year as an adult do you read? As a single parent, not as many books as I would have liked, probably 45 to 50 books last year.

By Karen Armsby

August 24, 2005 11:11 AM | Link to this

SWC, I most heartily disagree with your statement that reading additional books is pointless. In fact, you missed the point. The point of reading programs is primarily to encourage the slow or poor readers to read more, and the better readers to read at a higher level. Better readers are better learners. And I wasn’t suggesting astronauts for middle schoolers. ‘Read Trek’ was designed for elementary school level students, but with a little work a similar incentive program could be designed and succeed for middle and high schoolers. My kids are also athletes and have always had a wide range of outside activities and all are avid readers because we, their parents, are avid readers and have always encouraged reading outside of assigned material in school. They read way more than 25 books a year. My son read The Godfather in 5th grade! He’s a college soph. now and I stll give him books to read on business, history, politics, thinking and whatever else I am reading. Whatever program or encouragement the schools and parents give to the kids to read more will always be a worthwhile effort.

By Karen Armsby

August 24, 2005 11:20 AM | Link to this

Bruce, Let your kids read whatever they want and introduce other reading as part of family acitivites, like local history, sports books about a sports star they admire, a bird/animal guide book for the beach when you vacation or the histroy of an area you are travelling to for work. Put the other reading into a context to get their interest and they will eventually broaden their scope.

I remember a teacher in 4th grade who told me I couldn’t check out any more Nancy Drew mysteries, that I needed to read a biography, and I hated her for that. So my feeling is don’t stifle a child’s pleasure reading! Magazines, comics, whatever, as long as it isn’t Playboy etc., I say let them read everything!

By RF

August 24, 2005 11:26 AM | Link to this

Karen—you hit the nail on the head! When the parents read, and books are an important, useful part of the home, the kids naturally read more. Then 25 books a year isn’t hard. I’ve taught in high schools where reading programs have been tried—most with mediocre success. By high school, kids are reading about as proficiently as they ever will. Teens don’t generally get into “competitive” reading, or reading for points. When parents read, kids will read. My youngest son would hold a book at three and pretend to read words while I was reading. Just seeing a parent reading instills that value in a child. But, to the question originally asked, middle school and high school kids generally won’t do well with reading 25 books unless they come from homes where reading is a focal point.

By bloom

August 24, 2005 11:31 AM | Link to this

SWC - The AR program does not limit children to a particular grade level. My kindergartener managed to earn 165 AR points last year, average book level grade about 4th or 5th grade. If your child isn’t allowed to read books above their grade level, that is a fault of the school, not the AR program. I originally hated the AR program, believing that it took all the fun out of reading, but my children have all enjoyed taking the quizzes.

By Rose

August 24, 2005 11:39 AM | Link to this

It’s hard for me to imagine a world without books or people who don’t like to read, even though I know the vast majority of our population are not routine readers. I have read all my life, and average more than a book a week today. I would read more than that, but work, etc., gets in the way!

When I was in school we did not have a requirement on number of books to read, but I had parents who loved to read and who encouraged my love of reading. Despite the emphasis on reading in my childhood home, my brother once bragged that he had never read a book all the way through! You can lead a horse to water, and all that…

Reading has changed my life. It has indisputably made me who I am, for better or worse. I am frequently out of step with the mainstream views of my environment, and there’s no other way to explain it except that reading has made me this way. It has broadened my mind and made me see things in all kinds of shades of gray, instead of always black and white. I think this is a good thing, but some folks would disagree, I’m sure. To some people, reading — and the mind-broadening it brings about — are dangerous things. They would fight to discourage it.

I work for a school system and our superintendent has carried the 25 book requirement a step further. She is requesting that all system personnel read 25 books in the coming year. I may be the only employee she can absolutely count on meeting the request, but at least it’s a goal. I know people who would love to read more, but they have far busier lives than I do and just can’t fit it in. If this request does nothing more than encourage them to read a book or two more than they would have, it will be a good thing.

I don’t know if requiring students to read more will make a difference or not, but here’s one more story from my past: As a young child I loved books and being read to, but in my pre-teen years, I got distracted by other amusements, and lost some of my love for reading. I can still vividly remember the hot summer day when my mother demanded that I go to my room and read. Grumbling about her order, I nevertheless laid down on my bed and started to read. I had checked out a book titled “The Pink Motel”, a teen mystery, and soon I was gripped by the story. I can honestly say that I have not stopped reading since that day, now more than 40 years ago. If even one child can have that experience because someone “made” him or her read a book, it will all have been worthwhile.

By AEK

August 24, 2005 11:46 AM | Link to this

I am a life long reader who discovered joy in books long before I entered the public school system. The problem with a required reading program is often that we were required to read things that did not interest us or were below us. More than once I was admonished for reading books like Jane Eyre and The Awakening while in 5th grade. There is something to be said for my comprehension of such books which developed as I read them over but in all I accelerated very quickly in my understanding of literature and all of its nuances. Do I think 25 is excessive yes. What if a child wants to read Catch 22 or East of Eden? In fact, what if a high school student wants to read a shorter but tougher read. Are they then punished because this slows them in meeting their quota? I would rather see books rated on a points scale and have kids earn a number of points. Where a book like harry potter, which is a lovely lengthy novel, is still rated below other classics because it is not as difficult to read. The readability of books should be taken into account. This is rambling but I do believe there should not be a number imposed on students

By Vermin8

August 24, 2005 11:47 AM | Link to this

SWC, if your son is having trouble balancing reading and sports perhaps he should cut down on sports. It’s good that he enjoys it but when he’s looking for a job as an adult, reading comprehension is going to mean more than rounding out the intramural team.

By Linda R.

August 24, 2005 12:11 PM | Link to this

Several of you mentioned children coming from homes where the parents are avid readers… tend to result in children that love to read.

My children both love to read. I have the high schooler, and the pre-schooler.

Our pre-schooler’s favorite place to go with my husband is Barnes & Noble. The pre-schooler has more books than anything else… by her choice. We will sometimes have to turn the house upside down looking for a particular book that has been misplaced.

My high-schooler does not have much time for reading outside of the assigned books. However, when he does… Harry Potter, The Hobbit, Lord of the Rings trilogy, Redwall, and other fantasy type books appeal to him.

The key seems to be, provide the types of books children are drawn to. This serves as an encouragement in itself.

It did not occur to me that my children both see my husband & I read daily.

By Robert

August 24, 2005 12:20 PM | Link to this

Guys, let me clarify…. I am a teacher that made comments that some of you misinterpreted.

Reading is important. Reading should be incorporated in every course. There is no doubt about this.

However, making an arbitrary “requirement” that each student should read X number of books and that this must be tracked by a teacher is ridiculous. And on top of this, as I mentioned in my first post, even when I did track this the administration did not take it up for review and there was no consequence for students that did not reach the X mark.

Putting requirements in education without any real method of tracking and with no real reward/consequence is SILLY and waste valuable educators time!

By FunkyGee

August 24, 2005 12:33 PM | Link to this

Robert - learn to spel and punkchuate more bettur. Espescully if yure a teachur. Oh yea - I forgot - you’re in the Atlanta school system. Now I understand the handicap. Sorry.

By tired teacher

August 24, 2005 12:35 PM | Link to this

To everyone who thinks the teachers came up with the 25 book rule: it is part of the new Georgia Performance Standards and very few, if any, teachers had anything to do with the writing of those standards.

By Business Man

August 24, 2005 01:40 PM | Link to this

What books will the students be reading? Will they be a bunch of books about fiction that was made up in someones mind or about true stories or history. Quess what books the students and kids in most countries over seas that will be competing with our kids and students for jobs etc. are reading. I bet you will find books on how to design or fix a plane, car, airconditioning, accounting, investing, etc. and very little books from someones mind just because it is fun to read.

By RF

August 24, 2005 02:51 PM | Link to this

the 25 books are supposed to be spread across subject areas, including career and technical (old term-vocational)classes, so that kids are exposed to fiction, nonfiction, historical readings, science and math related material, and books devoted to career fields. My question is, if a child comes to high school reading proficiently at about fifth grade level, how in the world do we get him to buy into this and actually read 25 books? We need to do what Rose’s mom did and give them no other choice.

By SWC

August 24, 2005 03:31 PM | Link to this

Karen Armsby - when I say its “pointless” I mean that they will not be reading anything of substance. I am not missing the point! I REPEAT: QUALITY OVER QUANTITY. To Vermin8 - My kid is not having trouble. He’s an A student. But I am not going to have him give up OR cut back on his extra-curricular activities. They are necessary to his health and well-being, AND will help him compete when he applies to colleges AND may even provide him with a career, just so that he can lie around the house reading “Goosebumps” books to satisfy some BASELESS CRITERIA OF 25 BOOKS. I am really sick and tired of being lectured to by a bunch of educrats and educratic thinkers who think they know everything and have the unmitigated gall to tell me how I should raise my child. If you all want your kids to read 25 books a year on top of their curriculum - FINE! Just don’t force your theories down my kid’s throat. I am not going to sacrifice my son’s health just so Cathy Cox can brag about how the test scores went up. I am also not going to raise some mediocre kid who can read but can’t do anything else. I can guarantee you that the BEST schools in the country do not require that their students read 25 books a year over and above the curriculum. They ASSIGN SPECIFIC BOOKS TO READ as part of ENGLISH LITERATURE. Oh - maybe they don’t have “English Literature” anymore - that’s too dead white male.

By SWC

August 24, 2005 03:57 PM | Link to this

I’ve got a great idea. Why don’t all you bloggers who think you know how to raise MY child tell me a little bit about yourself and your curriculum vitae. Where you went to school; what you do for a living; your hobbies (specially sports); something about your children, et cetera. What are your credentials to lecture other parents just because they don’t agree with you? I am really growing weary of people like “Vermin8” telling me, a mother of an A student and an accomplished athlete, that my son should cut back on his athletics so that he can read an arbitrary number of ANY 25 books this school year just because some bureacrats at the D.O.E. decided it would be a nice idea and get all you lemmings all pumped up.

By tony

August 24, 2005 04:10 PM | Link to this

To Robert: Your comment, “I did take the time to get my homeroom kids to right down what they read - which was a feat in and of itself.”, concerns me. I hope you’re not an English teacher. The correct word is, “write”.

By Lynn

August 24, 2005 04:13 PM | Link to this

Tell em Swc.

“What a silly, silly thing.”

Amen.

Of course….if the school does not require them to some may never do so. And there is really no harm in the program. Everyone benefits.

By t

August 24, 2005 04:16 PM | Link to this

It’s not really 25 “books” and yes summer reading counts. In our middle school we break it into 2 parts—pleasure reading (they have to read 9 books around 150 pgs. ) and then academic reading. Each subject keeps track of what they are having their kids read in the subject area from the textbook, articles, novels. etc. and that will total another 9 or so books..then add up their summer reading (which we collect summer reading cards to know what they were reading) It really is not too demanding…As a middle school teacher…I find that the parents REALLY have a HUGE influence on their children…if the parents are griping..then the kids will too! If the parents would set aside a little family time at home for pleasure reading (even if it is just 20 minutes after dinner)…maybe their kid would get off the computer and join them. Reading is NOT a BAD thing..nor is setting HIGH goals! :D

By Karen Armsby

August 24, 2005 04:21 PM | Link to this

SWC, This is an opinion forum where we debate education issues presented by Patti. You gave your opinion and we responded to you in a civil manner. So if you please, play nice and respond back to us in in a civil manner.

I think your POINT about what is worthy and what is not worthy to read is off the mark. IMHO reading should be a pleasure first, and once the student has established good pleasure reading habits and his reading speed and comprehension are improving, then so will his attention to, and understanding of required school reading and more academic subjects that you deem worthy to read. I am not a teacher, just a lifelong reader.

By old school grama

August 24, 2005 04:28 PM | Link to this

Reading is fundamental! Twenty-five books is not that much to read. My middle school granddaughter (7th grade) read her 25 and then some last year. My goal for her this summer was to read at least 10 books to stay sharp.

The old addage of “children live what they learn” may just have some truth. My granddaughter was read to when she was as young as 3 mos. old. By the time she was walking (10 or 11 mos. old) she had learned to associate the name of a book with its cover. You could actually tell her to get a certain title and she would go through her stack and return with the correct book.

Now, in middle school, she is taking honors classes and scores in the 99th percentile on standardized tests. (Not bragging, just fact!) In 5th grade one of her teachers commented that she knew that she read a lot because she scored so well on tests. Tests are about READING, then comprehending what you READ and then answering the questions.

For all of her life she has seen me reading some type book. When she learned to read on her on, we would read together. I would read one sentence or paragraph, and she would read the next.

I am glad to have been an influence for something positive in her life. AND THANKS TO THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS FOR HELPING TO REINFORCE HER READING HABITS.

MAKE YOUR KIDS READ — 25, 50, BOOKS…what doesn’t kill them will surely make them stronger — senior moment I think that is how the saying goes!

By RF

August 24, 2005 04:28 PM | Link to this

SWC- my curriculum vitae is as follows: I have a BA in English with a minor in Education, extensive training in reading education, 16 years teaching experience- working many of those years with struggling readers (many of whom did indeed need to spend more time reading and less time on the field). AND I am a full-time single parent, scout den leader, and working on a master’s in reading and literacy. My two sons are A level students who play sports and are in scouts. The only time I draw a line is when sports interfere with grades. What most of the bloggers here are saying to you is that you simply need to make sure you have a good balance. Obviously you do, so don’t let them offend you. If your child can maintain grades and sports, more power to him. He is in a small minority however.

By Robert

August 24, 2005 04:41 PM | Link to this

I will be honest. I hate to read most books. I do enjoy reading the newspaper, short magazine stories and articles. I like to read things that give me information. I do not like to read fiction. I get nothing from reading stories about things like Haryy Potter or anything make believe.

But…..the bottomline is that kids do learn from reading. I would rather the requirement be to read X minutes per day. Not a defined quantity of preselected books. As long as the child is reading then they are learning and that is all that matters. Isn’t it?

By CA

August 24, 2005 05:15 PM | Link to this

I have to agree with those who believe this rule stresses quantity over quality. In high school, I was consistantly at the top of my class, loved to read, yet doubt I ever read more than 5 or 6 books per year outside my curriculum. However, in advance English classes alone, we read 15 - 25 books each year. I used several of my electives to take advanced language courses (more homework, less time for outside reading). I was on the math team and worked on problems and puzzles not covered in class after school for practice. I knew students who spent countless hours on extracurricular science projects. They read a few books for a project, but most of the time was spent on their experiments. Are those activities less worthy ways of spending “free” time than reading 25 books? Point is, while it’s great to set high goals and encourage kids to spend less time in front of the TV or at the mall, that magic number of 25 out-of-class books is not necessarily what every student needs.

By Jane

August 24, 2005 08:08 PM | Link to this

As as a school Media Specialist I find this topic very interesting. Although I don’t have experience with high or middle school students (I work in a Pk-2, primary school), I believe that any initiative to get students to read is a good one. In the lower grades, most students are eager to learn, and they want to read as much as they can. Sometimes, I have had students tell me that they “hate” books (usually the struggling readers), but these students are usually the exception.

Because my school is in a primarily low income area, we received a three year, federally funded reading grant. Students spend two straight hours in intensive, systematic reading instruction. Despite its popularity with parents, the Accelerated Reader program is not a component of this instruction because it is not scientifically based. Parents love AR because it appears to be a tangible method of showing student reading ability. However, this has not been scientifically proven. Some students respond well to AR; others are intimidated or are bored by it. Although I am a reading fanatic, I would have rebelled against taking a test on every book I read as a child - even if I did get a prize). We are in the second year of the grant, and this reading instruction appears to be working.

As part of the grant, my school media center received hundreds of new books for our students. This good fortune is not shared by most school libraries in Georgia. School library budgets have been deeply cut by the legislature. In the last four years, my budget was slashed by more than two thirds. Without the grant, we would not be able to offer our students such an outstanding selection of books. Most of the state allotment would have gone to technology and technical support. Very little would have been left over for books, which have become very expensive.

School media specialists are avid readers, and the aspect of our job we love the most is promoting reading. We are trained to choose books and materials that support the curriculum, that are age appropriate, and that provide reading enjoyment. But with our limited funds, this part of our job is getting much harder.

If students are going to be required to read these books, they should at least have a wide variety to choose from in their school media centers. In some of the local high and middle school media centers I have visited, this is not the case. I see many new computers, digital cameras, computerized projectors, and video broadcast equipment, but not many books.

Although I applaud the DOE for trying to encourage reading, the legislature should support this initative by providing adequate funding for books and school libraries. If each school media center had a wide selection of books to choose from, every student would be able to find 25 appropriate books to read - even the most ardent of student athletes could do this with books they enjoyed. In my opinion, reading should be both an informative and pleasurable activity - not a chore.

I also would like to remind everyone that not all students have families that can afford to buy them books. Also, many working parents don’t have the time to take their children to public libraries; and in some rural areas, good public libraries are not readily available. As for high school students, how many would be caught dead in a library?

I applaud this high school for its efforts to encourage reading in all subject areas and to all students. I also like the the forming of discussion groups. Not only should good books be enjoyed, they should be shared. Kudos to the faculty and administration of this school!

By Rose

August 25, 2005 08:55 AM | Link to this

As I said before, I work for a school system. A couple of years ago, I witnessed a scene that horrified and saddened me. I was in the media center of one of our elementary schools, working on a project. A group of students approaced the desk, books in hand. The instructional assistant began to check out the books. Suddenly, in a harsh and booming voice, she started berating one of the students.

“Why did you get this book?!?” she demanded. “This is not an AR book. This is a book from the fun shelves. You cannot get a fun book until you’ve read your AR books!”

The child stood there with stooped shoulders, being humiliated in front of his friends. I ached for him. Mostly, though, I cringed at the message the IA was delivering to every child within hearing distance of her booming voice. She was saying that there’s chore reading and fun reading, and buddy-boy, you’d better do the chore reading before you even think about doing the fun reading. It was a horrible message to give these youngsters. I wanted to stand up and defy her — to tell those children that all reading can be fun AND enlightening. Of course I didn’t say a word, but the scene haunts me still. If she delivered that kind of message regularly (and I suspect she did) no telling how many young children she turned off from reading. Her attitude would have made me afraid to even go in the media center if I were a child at that school Thank goodness she has retired. What we say and do as adults concerning reading can make a difference to the little ears and eyes around us.

By Blackman

August 25, 2005 09:24 AM | Link to this

Students should be reading books that inspire them to read more books. Maybe an enjoyable book here and there, but something that will teach them and help them learn should be in the mix.

By Marie

August 25, 2005 10:39 AM | Link to this

“I wanted to stand up and defy her â€â€?”

Rose, that is exactly what you should have done. You should have taken her aside and blessed her out. Never stand there and let a child take a beating from an adult.

Oh, don’t you love public schools?

By Billybobjoedinggy

August 25, 2005 10:50 AM | Link to this

“working on a master’s in reading and literacy.”

RF….your kidding. There is actually a masters degree in reading?

In all fairness this is an honest question…….What possible advantage could you bring to the class room from this “degree”. Either one can read or they can not. Children have been taught to read for 1000’s of years by teachers without a masters degree. Of course getting the degree will be more money for you in the end.

By Notme

August 25, 2005 10:58 AM | Link to this

“the legislature should support this initative by providing adequate funding for books and school libraries.”

That’s a good one. The problem with education is a lack of money. Oh, make me laugh. Yep, that’s the answer. We need more tax payers dollars. Heck, just take my whole paycheck and I will just live in a shack and eat dirt.

By SWC

August 25, 2005 12:18 PM | Link to this

Karen Armsby: I am perfectly aware of what this forum is about. Once again I am being lectured to. If you go back and read my original comments, you will see that I submitted a perfectly reasonable and “civil” response. However, “PW” immediately flipped her lid, and accused us of being crazy and of letting our kids play too many video games and all sorts of ignorant and arrogant statements. Then “vermin8” suggested that I needed to cut back on my child’s athletic activities.

“”I would like to suggest that respondents to these forums refrain from doling out unsolicited advice.”“

It is one thing to express one’s opinion on a particular subject, or relate one’s own experiences; it is quite another to tell other parents what to do!

Surely we all know how important reading is - we do not need to be told that! What we supposed to be discussing in this particular forum is the 25 Book requirement, and that is exactly what I did. I have not given anyone advice on how they should raise their children, and would never think of doing that. By the way, I would also include teachers in this category. I do not need to be lectured to by teachers either, thank you very much. It is one thing to cite and descibe methods that have worked for them, it is quite another to decide that they are experts who know more than we do because they have an education degree. I believe that a lot of that they are taught is politically correct, faddish hogwash. I have been lectured to by teachers who love to tell me how many degrees they have, but have no children themselves, and who hold beliefs that are just plain wrongheaded (like not believing in recess for example), or insisting that a child write a spelling word 20 times when 5 times is enough (at least for my child).

Now back to the subject at hand. I understand your point about “pleasure” reading, but I believe that the schools have to provide a curriculum of books that everyone reads and discusses together - preferably “classics”. After that, the AR reading list should be liberal and not so restrictive that it sticks children at a level that they are not permitted to read above just because their STAR reading test doesn’t indicate that they are capable of reading higher level books. Students should of course also be encouraged to read “pleasure” books and should not be reprimanded for choosing them over AR books, as Rose recounted. That was a hideous thing to do (done by an “expert” or “specialist” to boot).

Regarding my firm belief in a set curriculum taking precedence, I am a big believer in the E.D. Hirsch, jr. curriculum which follows classic standards and has proven results. See “Capitol View Elementary” as an example.

By SWC

August 25, 2005 03:42 PM | Link to this

“Billybobjoedinggy” & especially “Not Me” - I’m with you both 100% and thanks for making me roll on the floor laughing!

By Karen Armsby

August 25, 2005 03:58 PM | Link to this

Apparently “Ignorance is Bliss.”

By Melissa D

August 25, 2005 04:34 PM | Link to this

I see requirements like these as noble goals imperfectly implemented, similar to the adage “everyone should go to college.” Some students will be greatly assisted by a home life that encourages reading; by supportive teachers and media specialists who aren’t beaten down by bureaucracy; and by peers who may be able to share books and enthusiasm to keep up a level of momentum. Others have to fight their environment just to hold on to basic levels of competency, much less flourish.

In many ways, I think programs like these are attempting to solve a symptom of a deeper problem that probably has more social roots than academic ones. Poorer students may have parents working more than one job, with little time to spend reading to a child (or two, or three). They may attend poorer schools, where teachers struggle to both teach and parent students at the same time, or where money for good books is lacking.

Lists can be pointless in the same way that being forced to take astronomy as a humanities major in order to graduate can be pointless. But going to college (at the undergrad level, at least) is overall an endurance test that helps a person find out what he likes or what she dislikes. Some of the hoops are ridiculous, but the act of jumping through them does have some meaning. A reading list can be similar — the student pushes through, and at the end can say “I liked (or didnt’ like) that book because….” — and at the very least has learned to articulate an educated opinion.

I’m lucky that I had a reading-oriented family. I’d love to help other kids by tutoring reading at a nearby school or after-school program. Does anyone here know the best way to approach a school about this? (I’m in DeKalb county.)

Melissa

By SWC

August 26, 2005 09:11 AM | Link to this

Melissa D - DeKalb has a mentoring program. Phone # 678 676 1884. For more info and website go to to www.dekalb.k12.ga.us/instruction/mentoring.

By SWC

August 26, 2005 09:25 AM | Link to this

Karen Armsby: Wow! How profound! I am overwhelmed by your fine examples of civility and brilliance. Thank you for helping me see the light. Thank you for disturbing my blissful state of ignorance. All curriculum reading should be discarded in favor of “pleasure” reading. (Who needs Shakespeare when you can read “Goosebumps”?) E.D. Hirsch, Jr. is ignorant. You and only you have ideas that are worthy of discussing - you were a PTA President after all. You’re a big fish, and I’m just a little bitty fish. What was I thinking? How could I have been so stupid?

By Karen Armsby

August 26, 2005 09:34 AM | Link to this

Reading is a skill that if practiced well and often will improve your reading speed and comprehension of everything else that you read. Read more, learn faster. In the lower grades students are learning to read, silently and aloud, and to answer questions about what they read to see how much they comprehend. Later in school as the readings become longer and more complex the comprehension questions grow more challenging and the students are asked to recognize, explain and interpret inferences and conclusions, symbolism, analogies, themes, etc. The more one reads the faster one can read and the better one can comprehend more complex readings.

We give our opinions based on our own experieinces and expectations. If you are not a good reader, don’t like to read, or only read out of necessity, then the 25 book goal may appear unreasonable and unattainable. But let’s make a comparison with athletes in training. An undeveloped young athlete may not be able at first to run a mile in 10 minutes without huffing and puffing, but with diligent practice, conditioning and training the athlete soon finds that it’s now easy to run the mile in 6 minutes and be ready for more running and 2 hours of practice. Reading is the same, if your goal is 25 books and you say that’s impossible, but then give it your best try, surprisingly you will reach the 25 book goal before the year’s end and be ready for more.

The message that our trained educators, and parents who are avid readers, are trying to tell our students is, aim high and you can reach the goal. It’s worth a try, and we all may be surprised by the positive results.

The students who go onto college soon find out they are expected to do 5 to 10 times the amount of independent reading that they did in high school. How better to prepare them than to require them to step up their reading in middle school and high school?

The disdain shown in the comments here for teachers, and especially RF, an experienced reading specialist, just shows the ignorance and rudeness of you people who have low expectations for your own reading ability and sadly you will pass that attitude and low expectations onto your children.

It’s not too late to save yourselves! Go to the library today and check out some books! They are free to read and you and your children will grow in knowledge together.

By Karen Armsby

August 26, 2005 09:38 AM | Link to this

SWC, Thank you, and yes you are.

By Karen Armsby

August 26, 2005 10:28 AM | Link to this

SWC, Increasing the Quantity of either pleasure or academic reading results in improved reading skills and learning ability. No one suggested throwing out curriculum reading. Comprehend?

By SWC

August 26, 2005 11:36 AM | Link to this

Karen Armsby: “No one suggested throwing out the curriculum reading. Comprehend?” Well actually Karen, in response to my perfectly reasonable suggestions that instead of just having an arbitrary number of 25 books to read that we suggest quality over quantity. I then went on to say that I felt it was essential that there be a good basic curriculum of Classic literature, which the entire class read and discussed, with other books read for pleasure in addition. I said that I felt that if there was a good curriculum of classic literature then there wouldn’t be time to read 25 books; that 12 was more reasonable. YOU SAID:

…Our children need freedom to grow, not artificial boundaries set up by bureaucrats

think your POINT about what is worthy and what is not worthy to read is off the mark. IMHO reading should be a pleasure first, and once the student has established good pleasure reading habits and his reading speed and comprehension are improving, then so will his attention to, and understanding of required school reading and more academic subjects that you deem worthy to read. I am not a teacher, just a lifelong reader. I understand your point about “pleasure� reading, but I believe that the schools have to provide a curriculum of books that everyone reads and discusses together - preferably “classics�. Students should of course also be encouraged to read “pleasure� books and should not be reprimanded for choosing them over AR books The disdain shown in the comments here for teachers, and especially RF, an experienced reading specialist, just shows the ignorance and rudeness of you people who have low expectations for your own reading ability and sadly you will pass that attitude and low expectations onto your children. It’s not too late to save yourselves!

By RF

August 26, 2005 11:58 AM | Link to this

billybobjoedinggy—yes there is a master’s in reading. I decided that since I teach struggling readers I need to keep up with new knowledge, and if I’m taking courses,they might as well apply towards a degree. And you know, there’s more to it than money. Some of us out there robbing the taxpayers for a salary actually do care about the job and keeping up with professional training and growth.

SWC— take a break and calm down. It’s really not that big a deal and you take things WAY too personally. Opinions are just expressions of one’s beliefs, and the point of debates like this is for people to disagree. Personal attacks aren’t intended against you as far as I can read, so don’t take them that away. Let’s agree to disagree and keep it professional, please.

Whether we like the 25 book rule or not, we must realize the need for more reading. We have curricula in place that stress reading, but if the only place kids read is at school, then they will be mediocre readers at best. If making them read 25 books will get them to read more, then it’s worth a try. If we stopped blaming the schools when kids don’t succeed and realize that we are all a part of the process of raising children, then together we can improve kids’ scores. As long as there is so much animosity towards education and educators, we will not be able to do this. We have to create seemingly ridiculous policies because we are held accountable for kids’ success regardless of what the parents do. And if kids don’t succeed, then the schools carry the full weight of the blame. “It takes a village to raise a child” and we must work together, parents and teachers,to help the kids. Thank you parents for all you do. Help us help the parents who don’t do anything learn how to help.

By Me

August 26, 2005 12:11 PM | Link to this

PW, “This is exactly the reason why my grandson is being taught at home.� Just because the school requires or doesn’t require something, I’m still in charge of raising my child and educating him. The teachers perform a service, a valued one, but in the end it still comes down to the parent to ensure the service is right. If your child is underserved, homeschool or fill-in-the-gaps. In our case, a fill-in-the-gaps and working with the teacher has worked for us.

By Me

August 26, 2005 12:12 PM | Link to this

SWC, It sounds like your kid is in Fulton. Their idea of a “Reading Class� for middle schoolers kinda freaks me out. With a gifted reader, why is a reading class necessary? It seems that his time could be better spent, learning something like Typing, Writing, Math, Science, etc. Even foreign language would be great. We’re not in Fulton and I consider the “Reading Class� a negative in their middle-school curriculum. Also, speaking of better schools in the country, we were in a really great district in another state. Frequently tops that Jay Matthews Challenge Index list. They have no set requirement. They did require Summer Reading, but it was a reasonable amount. The Reading program they use is a continuum model of sorts. They don’t use AR. They encourage kids to read what they wanted. And, for the gifted kids, they reach out and make an effort to meet them on their level. This enabled a 2nd grader to read Narnia, Potter, and tons of other books, while the other kids read Boxcar Children chapterbooks in class. We never had a reading log, K through 3, but in K and 1st, they’d send home tons of beginning readers. The parent’s job? Help the kid practice his reading. They provided guidelines to not discourage the kid accidentally, keep the reading flow going, etc. I remember in K, or maybe 1st, I was washing dishing while he sat at a counter stumbling over some book they sent home. But, the next time he read, it was easier, then easier again. The teachers knew if you were working on it at home, they didn’t need a stinking Reading Log. If the child was struggling, they’d talk to the parents, and if need be, the next step was Reading Recovery. So, why doesn’t GA deal with their issues from a Reading Recovery slant?

By Me

August 26, 2005 12:13 PM | Link to this

And, SWC, I’m the same way about unsolicitated advice. My kid’s really happy, smart, kind, healthy, and, again - happy. Each year, there’s a different teacher. That teacher has a role in his life, but it’s definitely not to trump my role. I’ve learned to listen to advice as suggestions, and nothing more. I advise you to do the same. :P (I hope you get my humor there…)

I’ve read the Well-Trained Mind books, too. I find the classical ed method fascinating and thorough. For school related reading, used for in-depth studies, I totally agree that Classics should be used. Outside of school, I say the kid read whatever he wants (assuming the parents agree). So, I think it is important to have both an in-school list and at-home list. Lists being more of a guideline than an actual real list, becuase I hate book lists.

By Me

August 26, 2005 12:16 PM | Link to this

Karen, The goal doesn’t support kid’s unique qualities and interests. SWC’s kid is obviously interested in athletics than mine. For some reason, that seems to have implied an illiterate jock in your mind. Just because doesn’t love reading doesn’t mean they’re slow or ignorant. You’ve done nothing but advise SWC how their parenting their child wrong by allowing the interest in athletics. To SWC’s child, reaching the goal of 25 books a year means Nothing. They succeed in school, they succeed in athletics, and that’s their Goal. Who is the state to attempt to decide what the kid’s goal should be? Nobody.

Personally, I do not like reading fiction. I do like reading non-fiction and if my child recommends something fictional, I’ll read it just because he wants me to. My kid loves to read, I have no idea where he got that from, since I’m a single parent. I support him in every way imaginable. He has a huge bookshelf at home, that rivals many of my adult friends who also love reading. He reads, comprehends, and analyzes books on a much higher level than his peers/age level. He’s had books removed from his hands by ignorant teachers that didn’t believe he could understand them. He’s had conferences with acadamic support professionals, principals, and gifted teachers to ensure he would be allowed to read what is appropriate for him. No “Goal� will affect him. He reads because it’s his interest. If the school started requiring afterschool sports activity, he would be seriously handicapped. He has no interest in athletics, and that Goal would mean nothing to him. If his grades depended on it, he would do it because he has goals involving grades.

“The message that our trained educators, and parents who are avid readers, are trying to tell our students is, aim high and you can reach the goalâ€? This one line paints the whole program in such a negative light. I guess the question is… to what end? So what about the goal. Karen, you have such an alarmist and brainwashed attitude about reading.

“It’s not too late to save yourselves!� Haha :)

By SWC

August 26, 2005 01:07 PM | Link to this

Karen Armsby - To quote You: I think your POINT about what is worthy and what is not worthy to read is off the mark. IMHO reading should be a pleasure first

I comprehend perfectly well. Forgive me if I got the impression that the students should be able to decide what books to read, that the curriculum was secondary to their decisions.

Now, to recap my theories (which you apparently think are so off-base that they require intervention by The Lord):

I believe that the schools should FIRST provide a curriculum of books, preferably from the classics, books that everyone in the class reads and that are later discussed in class. How Stupid of me!

I believe that deciding that students should read 25 books, of any substance, no matter what the content, is a silly and arbitrary requirement. How stupid of me!

I believe that it is more reasonable to ask for 12 books a year to be read on top of the curriculum requirements. How stupid of me!

I believe that over and above the curriculum, children can read as many books as they choose. The sky’s the limit! Read 100 books if you want. Go ahead - I’m certainly not stopping you. Unlike some who contribute to this blog, I am not telling anyone how to run their life, or raise their children. How stupid of me!

I believe that bureaucrats make a lot of decisions that are not based on historical evidence of what works, but on fads. Emphasising multi-culturalism over a sound, basic curriculum that is grounded in the classics, canning recess, cutting back on PE, and cutting back on summer vacation are examples of some of these decisions that I hold in disdain. How stupid of me!

I believe that it is nothing short of arrogant for people who contribute to this blog to give UNSOLICITED advice on how parents should raise their children, especially when that advice is accompanied by comments that suggest that parents who do not agree with bureaucratic mandates such as the arbitrary 25 book requirement are crazy,harming their children, and require salvation because it is obvious that their kids are heathens and do nothing but watch video games. How stupid of me!

I do not have contempt for teachers (although I beleive that an education degree is overrated), but I am particularly unimpressed with Georgia’s educational bureacracy. Some teachers are superb and unforgettable. Some are mediocre. Some (thankfully very few) are just plain awful. My gripe is that I do not like being lectured to by some of these same teachers, particularly when they don’t know the first thing about me our my child. I also get quickly impatient with trite, pabulum-filled phrases. How many times did we need to be told how important reading is? Were we asked whether we thought that reading was important? OF COURSE NOT; no one in their right mind would dispute that fact! We were asked about the 25 book requirement. How stupid do you think we all are? Oh, sorry, I forgot.

I think its great that you spent so much time volunteering in the schools, presiding over the PTA, et cetera. I too have volunteered, mentored, et cetera. I don’t believe that that gives me any moral authority over anyone.

And, believe it or not, despite your assumptions to the contrary, I actually do read! A lot! And write! And have things published! Yes, I know that these are amazing facts to behold, because you’ve made so many assumptions about my intelligence and other aspects of my life.

So Karen, I hereby sign off on this post because I have had it with your uppity, presumptious attitude. I will only make one suggestion to you: Go back and read what I actually said and what you actually said before you accuse me of being ignorant.

Gotta run to the library before its too late.

By Karen Armsby

August 26, 2005 01:12 PM | Link to this

Me, You and SWC have a reading comprehension problem, and you made up inferences and drew conclusions out of nothing that I said! I gave no advice to SWC that said anything about his/her parenting skills. And who said anything about an illiterate jock? In fact I posted that my kids were athletes also. SWC said that reading 25 books was unreasonable, and I responded with reasons why I thought 25 is a good goal. If 12 books is what SWC thinks her student should read outside of the curriculum, then I am all for it. 12 is better than none, which is the case with a lot of students now.

The point I am trying to make is that setting higher goals for reading can only be a positive thing for students, because the more you read the better and faster you learn.

It’s my opinion that juvenile name calling, laughing at people’s teaching credentials and experience, and dripping sarcasm do not contribute to the discussion, and are merely rude expressions of the name caller’s own insecurites. May I suggest that you read the ‘Art of Living,’ by Epictetus, or ‘Status Anxiety,’ by Alain de Boton, and get a new outlook on life. Have a nice day.

By Karen Armsby

August 26, 2005 01:14 PM | Link to this

Is the moon full, or what????

By SWC

August 26, 2005 01:20 PM | Link to this

To All: Please disregard the 11:36 am posting. The computer suddenly went crazy and posted some quotes that I had “cut and pasted” to use in my response. A coherent post followed at around 1:00.

By SWC

August 26, 2005 01:41 PM | Link to this

Well, I guess that the library is going to have to wait for a few minutes because Karen Armsby has done it again! After telling me that I am ignorant and stupid just because I believe in a good curriculum, she has told us to refrain from name-calling. She has given us more advice on how to lead our lives, and psycho-analyzed me by referring to my “insecurities”. Then to top it off, she has finished by using one of the single most obnoxious phrases known to modern man, dripping with sarcasm to boot: “Have a nice day!”

By Karen Armsby

August 26, 2005 01:44 PM | Link to this

SWC, I would like to read some of your publications. Can you give us your name and the titles of your articles or books?

By Karen Armsby

August 26, 2005 01:56 PM | Link to this

SWC, How about that list of your publications? You have me interested!

By RF

August 26, 2005 02:08 PM | Link to this

**SWC- why don’t you get an education degree and see how overrated it is!! Like many, you seem to believe that education degrees are for those who can’t do anything else. Most choose teaching over other, more lucrative careers because they want to, not because it’s and easy degree. Teachers give advice to parents out of educational concern. Noone is trying to tell you how to raise your child—teachers tell all parents the same things many times to emphasize importance. Teachers have to make sure EVERY child/parent gets the message. If you take it offensively, that is your problem, so stop accusing us of trying to tell you how to raise your child.

The curricula we teach are rich in classical literature. The problem is, most kids can’t read and understand it because many have never read a single complete book. Regardless of the curriculum, when kids don’t read (and the majority only do what is required), we have to raise the stakes. Otherwise, the general population will only read less.

I challenge you to spend a few days in a public school classroom full of kids of “average intelligence”. Be a teacher for a few days and let me know your opinion.

By Karen Armsby

August 26, 2005 02:13 PM | Link to this

SWC, I say ‘Have a nice day to my husband and kids,” and I meant it sincerely to both ‘Me’ and you, SWC. I mean by have a nice day to go forth, enjoy this sunny cooler and drier afternoon, take a walk, work in your garden, go to a movie, do anything to have a nice day and hopefully forget the harsh words said here in the blog. You wear a person out.

By RF

August 26, 2005 02:28 PM | Link to this

Karen Armsby—isn’t it humorous and amazing how quickly people will get their ire up over the opinions of others? I am convinced that the world is full of needlessly angry folks who are missing the fun in life. I better be careful, I might be trying to tell someone how to live! Of course, if one spends enough time on Atlanta’s interstate system, one is likely to be a bit edgy all the time. Enjoy your weekend and thanks for the support of educators and the attempts we make at helping make our kids more literate. I’m looking forward to spending some time with my boys working in the yard tomorrow morning and sitting on our front porch swing enjoying the weather and reading a good book! Throw in some popsicles and the picture will be perfect. Enjoy!

By Me

August 26, 2005 02:37 PM | Link to this

Karen — I gave no advice to SWC that said anything about his/her parenting skills. Really? You’ve done nothing but insult SWC, her choices, and anyone that disagrees with you.

And, wait, there’s more… Apparently “Ignorance is Bliss.â€? Right after a post about civility, too. Go figure.

The disdain shown in the comments here for teachers, and especially RF, an experienced reading specialist, just shows the ignorance and rudeness of you people who have low expectations for your own reading ability and sadly you will pass that attitude and low expectations onto your children. General blanket statements applying to anyone that disagrees with you, also insulting.

SWC, Thank you, and yes you are. In response to SWC’s sarcastic response — “You’re a big fish, and I’m just a little bitty fish. What was I thinking? How could I have been so stupid?â€?

Comprehend? Again, implying SWC has a problem with reading comprehension.

It’s not too late to save yourselves! Go to the library today and check out some books! They are free to read and you and your children will grow in knowledge together.

It’s my opinion that juvenile name calling, laughing at people’s teaching credentials and experience, and dripping sarcasm do not contribute to the discussion, and are merely rude expressions of the name caller’s own insecurites. May I suggest that you read the ‘Art of Living,’ by Epictetus, or ‘Status Anxiety,’ by Alain de Boton, and get a new outlook on life. Have a nice day. Again, you don’t follow your own advice. It’s almost comical. If we were to pickup these books you suggest, would they give us an outlook similar to yours?

Is the moon full, or what???? There you go again, with the short posting, just like the second one quoted above.

By Karen Armsby

August 26, 2005 02:38 PM | Link to this

RF, Thank You! Finally a voice of reason in the wilderness. I used to tutor adult illiterates and helped kids in elementarty school with reading, too. I am not a teacher but thought about going back to school to be a reading specialist, like you. I chose another path, but lately I have been thinking again about going back to reading. Keep up your good work. We all benefit when kids read more.

Have a wonderful weekend with your boys! Kids grow up too fast and first thing you know you are rattling around in an empty house, but with more time to read : )

By RF

August 26, 2005 02:56 PM | Link to this

Karen you should go back to school. Or at least come in and volunteer some time in a local school, especially one on the “needs improvement” list. Kids, even in high school, love to be read to and nurtured while they read. You’d be good at it!

By Karen Armsby

August 26, 2005 03:11 PM | Link to this

We in this blog are only what we show to others in the blog. Beyond what you say here, I do not know you or presume to think I am any better or worse than you or anyone here. I am here only to exchange ideas. I am not here to be insulted. And when I am insulted and accused, or someone else is unfairly attacked, then I will respond. Saying that the 25 book requirement is silly, scoffing and laughing at educators and denigrating their decisions, jumping to false conclusions based on made up facts of presumed insults, name calling and accusations of what I am thinking, indeed made me wonder if the moon is full, and wonder how ignorant anyone can be to argue that more reading is not a good thing.

Here’s another one-liner, If the shoe fits, wear it.

By Karen Armsby

August 26, 2005 04:05 PM | Link to this

RF, Where do you teach?

By SWC

August 26, 2005 04:24 PM | Link to this

RF: My point about an education degree is not that there is something wrong with being a teacher. My point was simply that just because one has an education degree does not make one an expert on child-rearing or education.

I never said or implied that teachers become teachers because I perceive that they can’t do anything else. I am perfectly aware of the fact that most teachers become teachers because they love it. I never said that it was an easy degree to get.

As far as the curricula being rich in classical literature, my son is now in 6th grade and I have seen little or no evidence of this to date.

Your statement that “most kids can’t read” is simply not true. Note that I am refraining from using words like, “ridiculous”. And, if they can’t read, then what is the point of assigning 25 books then? Hmmm?

By SWC

August 26, 2005 04:39 PM | Link to this

Karen Armsby - I have gone through these postings from start to finish and I have to conclude that more people agree with me than with you - just on the substance of the 25 book requirement. I never insulted you personally until you told me that I was ignorant and stupid. You cite the fact that “I said that the 25 book requirement was silly”?! That is a personal insult in your book?

By Karen Armsby

August 26, 2005 05:05 PM | Link to this

Have a nice weekend everyone!

By RF

August 29, 2005 11:56 AM | Link to this

SWC—please, for heaven’s sake, read the whole sentence before you quote someone. WHAT I WROTE WAS “kids can’t read and understand. I KNOW KIDS CAN READ, BUT COMPREHENSION LEVELS HAVE DROPPED IN HIGH SCHOOL OVER RECENT DECADES. Check with your middle school, but most I know do not teach classical literature. Shakespeare and Mark Twain are a little much for that age group. Please quit throwing words back at people in a vain attempt to create an argument. You are obviously an angry person who needs to calm down. I apologize if I hurt your feelings, but I didn’t tell you how to raise your child so please don’t edit what I say….it’s getting old.