By Karen Armsby

June 28, 2005 11:41 AM | Link to this

Larry ‘Doc’ Neace is a special person that makes a positive impression on everyone who meets him, and an outstanding educator who has positively influenced and motivated so many students, regardless of whether or not they ended up with a good grade in his classes. He is a quiet and intelligent man. He listens when you speak and responds thoughtfully. He has the ability to transmit a great deal of complicated information in a simple, direct, and easy to understand way. He invites questions and discussion without showcasing his own superior knowledge. He seems comfortable in his skin as a scientist and a teacher, and has been a backbone of integrity and teaching discipline at Dacula High School for 23 years. Doc Neace has a policy that has been approved for ten years that requires that students develop a discipline of learning in his classes that includes paying attention and participating in classes.

Teaching science requires much more than requiring students to memorize and spew facts. Science involves developing a hypothesis, designing experiments to test the hypothesis, gathering, calculating and interpreting data, and drawing conclusions that either prove or disprove the hypothesis. Developing this investigational framework requires a dialogue between teacher and students, and among students working together.

When the student in this case put his head down and did not participate in the class exercise, then he was absent for the whole academic process for which Doc Neace is responsible to teach. It was an academic assessment, plain and simple.

The Dacula High School principal has systematically moved the best and the brightest teachers out of our school. A principal should be a good people manager, and good managers don’t have to know how to do all of the jobs or have all of the knowledge of those they manage. But they should be responsible at the minimum for communicating with teachers under their direction, for sitting down as a fellow professional when a problem arises, and investigating what happened, identifying the conflicts, and working with the teacher to resolve the problem.

The principal here failed on all counts; he talked to and met with a complaining parent without talking to the teacher before a parent-teacher meeting. He allowed the parent to rant and curse at the teacher, then put his teacher on the spot and demanded he make a change right there in front of the parent. He gave an ultimatum that same day, repeating it three time in succession to satisfy the rule that the teacher be told ‘repeatedly’ to change his actions. And then the paperwork was kicked upstairs to the county office level to so-called ‘human’ resouces, where the administrators also failed professionally to do their own inquiry to verify the facts, where they refused to address the concerns Mr. Neace had about his teaching certificate, and where they summarily branded him a rogue teacher who enjoyed flaunting the rules. They fired him after 23 unblemished years of dedicated service, and then the School Board rubber stamped the firing. The lone voice of reason on the School Board, Carol Boyce, whose kids have all attended Dacula schools was unable to sway the Board in their decision to ratify the superintendent’s decision to terminate Mr. Neace.

What happened here is the Peter Principle in action, a bunch of administrative rule focused educators who have risen to the level of their incompetence.

Doc Neace doesn’t fit in their agenda as he is focused on learning

By FunkyGee

June 28, 2005 11:47 AM | Link to this

Wow - you get to appeal your firing to the state. I guess the private sector has it all wrong.

By Stacy

June 28, 2005 12:36 PM | Link to this

I sure as heck hope the State Board has more sense than the Gwinnett County Board of Morons. (Carol excluded of course) I would really like to see them have an investigation into the Dacula administration in general as a result of this. Doc Neace’s situation is the tip of the proverbial iceberg.

By Amy

June 28, 2005 12:47 PM | Link to this

I spoke with my school board representative, Louise Radloff, after the board’s decision to register my disgust with their ruling. She said that it made her ‘sick to her stomach’ to have to vote to fire him. My thought is that if a vote makes you sick to your stomach that’s your body’s way of telling you it’s the WRONG decision. If the school board is only going to rubber stamp the superintendent’s decisions then why do we need a school board?

Obviously, the grade change was an academic matter. Average a zero for class participation with 100 for the work and you cut the grade in half.

Hopefully, the state board will be more clearheaded since they are not being lead around by the nose by Al Wilbanks and associates.

By Ron

June 28, 2005 12:58 PM | Link to this

Isn’t this whole mess just ridiculous? A child sleeps in class but now we’re splitting hairs over academic versus behavioral consequences. God forbid we teach children what it’s like in the real world! I THOUGHT that was part of what we were supposed to do as teachers. I am so, so, very sick of parents complaining and blaming the teacher when Jr. can’t keep his head up in class. Perhaps if he slept at home instead of playing his X-box, talking on the cell phone, or watching TV half the night, then he wouldn’t sleep at school. I hope Doc Neace gets a fair hearing from the state, but I wouldn’t count on it. We used to work with parents to teach kids, but more and more often we’re working against them. When did we become the enemy?

By Jake

June 28, 2005 01:30 PM | Link to this

I’m not sure it’s “obvious the grade change was an academic matter”. However, that is the crux of the matter. It appears Doc may have inappropriately changed a behavior issue into an academic one. It’s hard to envision sleeping in class as an academic matter. Sleeping in class seems to me to be a behavior or discipline mattr and, as such, can’t be reflected in his grade per the policy of the school. The indications that Doc’s a great teacher and that the principal let him get away with this violation for years until someone complained are irrelevant.
How can we teach the students there are consequences to their actions, if we let Doc get away with violating school policies?

By Jake

June 28, 2005 02:29 PM | Link to this

Ron, you became the enemy when the national ethic changed from the golden rule to gold rules. While we’ve always had our greedy miscreants from Boss Tweed to President Harding, this ethic has only recently become the accepted norm for the majority. So Martha Stewart with her limitless greed is more admired than vilified. And no one is really surprised when Scrushy gets acquitted.
So any teacher that even looks like they’re a threat to Janie getting into Harvard or Johnny qualifying for the Hope is the enemy. Ironically, public schools deserve some of the blame. The PC environment that teaches everyone is okay, they’re just different, and Johnny isn’t a poorly- raised, ill-mannered brat that isn’t fit for decent society, he just has ADHD, encourages this behavior.
It’s just a short step from that to saying whatever Johnny does is right, so the teacher must be wrong, which is essentially what happened in the Neace case.

By steve

June 28, 2005 03:12 PM | Link to this

What I loved about Ron’s post is that it raises some really important questions that seldom get asked (but need to desperately): What is the purpose of schooling and schools? What are we teaching FOR? Obviously, Nease had a rationale for why he teaches and why he makes certain decisions. We run into trouble, as we see in this case, when the teacher’s rationale runs counter to that of the administration. Which brings us to Stacy’s post that suggests that this situation at Dacula is only the tip of the iceberg and that there should be an “investigation into the Dacula administration in general.” This sounds like the best idea ever! I have several friends and former colleagues who work or have worked under Donnie Nutt at Dacula and they all assert that there is virtually no emphasis placed on teaching and learing by the administration. In fact, most people who have only a cursory knowledge of Dacula High will tell you that the REAL principal is not Nutt, but the athletic director and head football coach Maloof. Does anyone think it odd that Maloof, not department heads, performs interviews of prospective teachers? Is it a mere coincedence that Nease’s student was a star football player? Why was Maloof even involved at all and present at the initial meetings regarding the sleeping student? I think the citizens of Dacula and Gwinnett deserve some straight answers to those questions as well as the one posed by Amy above.

Like common sense at Dacula and the Gwinnett Board, I’m gone

By Lynne

June 28, 2005 03:45 PM | Link to this

The administrators are supposed to read and approve each and every syllabus that their teachers submit for approval. Are these administrators losing their jobs as well - for approving a syllabus that they deemed “wrong” for 10 years?

This is one of the many reasons why Gwinnett County is losing some great teachers, and why the kids and their parents think that they run the schools - especially athletes.

By Swan

June 29, 2005 09:41 AM | Link to this

“How can we teach the students there are consequences to their actions, if we let Doc get away with violating school policies?”

If you’re going to apply this, Jake, then do it fairly.

How can we teach the students there are consequences for their actions if we let the PRINCIPAL get away with violating school policies by ignoring a teacher’s syllabus for 10 years? What are the consequences for his actions?

Apparently, he’s exempt.

By Ron

June 29, 2005 09:43 AM | Link to this

Jake- one thing to think about here is this: if a kid sleeps in class, should there be any penalty for work he misses? I can call his parents or give him detention for sleeping in class, but what about the work? Should he be allowed to miss the work and still maintain a grade? I think Gwinnett is sending the message here that discipline doesn’t affect grades, when in fact it does. I remember a time when if a child was suspended from school, zeroes were automatic. Now some school systems require makeup work to be allowed for disciplinary suspension. So the message to the kids is this: you can get in trouble, but we’re still going to allow you to make a good grade. Where’s the logic in that? If the kid slept, he deserves a lower grade than those who fought to stay awake and do the work. Behavior affects grades, or used to, and I simply don’t see how we’re helping prepare kids for a world where laziness gets you nowhere. This kid in the spotlight here, like many others, will grow up expecting a cushy job and a big salary regardless of dedication to the job. Doesn’t work that way in most places!

By Karen Armsby

June 29, 2005 11:16 AM | Link to this

It’s Gwinnett County Schools’ policy that when a student is absent without an approved excuse, then he receives a zero for the work required while he was absent. If a student is sleeping in class, isn’t he virtually absent from class? His body may be there, but his mind is clearly NOT PRESENT, and not working. Sleeping is not on the list of excused absences.

It is the teacher’s responsibility to make the assessment of the student’s work. Since it is impossible for a sleeping student to work on an in class assignment, the teacher makes the assessment and the grade of zero is assigned for the period when the student should have been mentally present and working on the in-class assignment.

Sleeping= Unexcused Absence= Not Participating= Wasting Time= Not Working= ZERO for a grade.

By Ron

June 29, 2005 11:26 AM | Link to this

Karen— thanks for the logical explanation. I can’t for the life of me figure out why educated people who happen to have a pitiful dose of power forget the simplicity of that. The sad part is that it’s always the teacher who stands for a prinicple and takes the fall. Everyone else is too busy trying to save face and keep a job.

By Iteach

June 29, 2005 11:27 AM | Link to this

I pray that Neace’s hearing goes well and not the way of politics. His case has sparked such interest for the mere fact that it shows the public yet another hinderance to education.

The public listens as the NCLB issue is bounced back and forth, as SPLOST votes are put before them and they watch as our progress seems nil. Now they see that a teacher must choose between teaching and giving grades.

As a teacher I have only been pushed to the point once. Yes, I’ve had many complain about their baby’s grade but, I have had administrators that have believed more in education than in pampering parents.

Parents cannot play both sides in the issue of education - either support education or support their baby’s gold bricking.

It was not Neace that the School Board should have been firing but the principal for his ethics (or lack there of).

By Karen Armsby

June 29, 2005 11:36 AM | Link to this

Ron, Thanks. Indeed, the elite educator/adminsitrators need to get schooled in how to think critically, communicate effectively, and work with others to resolve coflicts and correct the ambiguities in their rules and policies.

By Ron

June 29, 2005 11:49 AM | Link to this

Very true Karen, but I think the politics involved in education these days make for lots of ambiguity. I’ve seen policies used several different ways depending on interpretation. It is sad indeed to see a veteran educator with a good record become a victim of such a system, but that’s the way it is these days. I am fortunate to work in a much smaller system where there is only one high school and the prinicpal is fully supportive as long as you can show the facts to back up your decision. I don’t think Neace will get much more support from the state, but hopefully this will shed some light on an imperfect system and encourage some change.

By Jim

June 29, 2005 12:06 PM | Link to this

If I remember correctly, the student slept through the lab, yet turned in the completed assigment the next day. In order to complete the assigment, he would have to make records of what they did during the lab. It should be obvious that he copied the information from another student. Isn’t there grounds for reducing a student’s grade for cheating?

By Karen Armsby

June 29, 2005 12:22 PM | Link to this

Ron, Yes, political correctness has stripped teachers of their authority to govern their classes. The majority, the good students, suffer while the minority number of troublemakers and slackers get their way or their parents threaten to sue. It appears to me that Gwinnett County Schools Administrators seem concerned only with standardized test results and uniformity of end products (aka students) being produced. With their oppressive and ambiguous rules, they seem more like jailers than educators, and only appear comfortable when they think they are in control.

It’s my opinion as just a mom, not a teacher, that school administrators should be in charge of building and operating the physical plant of the schools, and leave the teaching to the professionals, the classroom teachers.

By Ron

June 29, 2005 12:35 PM | Link to this

Karen- THANK YOU for calling us professionals!! Here lately, I was beginning to think most people had forgotten the fact that it requires specific college degrees and constant training to be a teacher! I’m a parent also, so I do see both sides of this coin. When one of my sons “forgot” to bring home his homework list and received zeroes for the work, I simply told him he would have to take the grades and do better next time. Seemed simple to me! You just made my day, week, YEAR!! I know parents respect us, but goodness can a few who don’t make our lives difficult!!

By C.R.H.

June 29, 2005 01:24 PM | Link to this

I have seen comments by other “students” in Mr. Neace’s class claim that sleeping beauty did copy the work from another student (and he should have got a ‘0’ for cheating). If they would stand up & state the facts at the hearing, I am sure it would go a long way to helping Doc. I am not sure why the cheating wasn’t brought up in the parent-teacher-administrator meeting. I would think someone else (the assisting student) should have also received a ‘0’.

By Ron

June 29, 2005 01:52 PM | Link to this

But that would require a child to admit to cheating, and heaven forbid we teach children to be honest, hard-working, and dedicated. We instead teach them that it’s okay to do as you please as long as you turn in an assignment, whether or not you actually did the work. The child will be the last to be punished, that is until he grows up and realizes that in the real world you have to work hard and sleeping on the job, even if your work is done, just isn’t acceptable.

By Linda R.

June 29, 2005 03:33 PM | Link to this

C.R.H.: “I am not sure why the cheating wasn’t brought up in the parent-teacher-administrator meeting.”

At the parent-teacher-administrator meeting the kid’s parent cussed the teacher out with the principal doing nothing to stop the disrespect! The administrator did not intervene during the verbal assault.

I agree that the assisting student should have received a 0. However, that would truly be a case of a behavior issue!

By Sandy C

June 29, 2005 03:51 PM | Link to this

Sleeping in class (ie not doing the work)= academic issue Fighting, cursing, grafitti, = discipline issues.

See the difference?

By Jim

June 29, 2005 04:14 PM | Link to this

The report of the account by Linda R. is deplorable. I think it is terrible for an administrator to allow a teacher to be cussed at in front of him. I was an administrator at a middle school. On one occasion a parent asked for a conferences with a teacher because the teacher turned in her daughter.
I agreed to her request and met the next morning with the parent and the teacher. When it became apparent that the parent was only there to “complain” about the rule itself, not what the teacher did, but just wanted to fuss at the teacher, I asked her to stop for a minute, excused the teacher from the meeting (with my apologies for having her listen to that) and then I “explained” firmly what the school’s position was and that she had other avenues for change.
Fortunately, I worked in a system where my superiors backed me up. I don’t think teachers should be allowed to be assaulted. Their jobs are the important ones in the school, not the administrators. A good administrator will work to allow teachers to teach, running interference for them if necessary.

By Former Player / Student

June 29, 2005 04:53 PM | Link to this

Speaking as a former football player under Maloof but before Nutt, players used to sit in the field house after practice and copy each other’s homework to avoid doing it themselves…. while the coaches turned a blind eye. I also studied under Doc Nease and believe him to be one of the very best educators I’ve ever known.

By steve

June 30, 2005 09:23 AM | Link to this

Karen wrote: “It appears to me that Gwinnett County Schools Administrators seem concerned only with standardized test results and uniformity of end products (aka students) being produced.”

There is a lot of good stuff on this blog, but Karen hits a homer with that one! I have logged many, many hours in Gwinnett schools and have many, many friends and former colleagues in Gwinnett schools and what she says is dead-on. The slogan Gwinnett uses (“Focus on Teaching and Learing”) is a joke. The focus is really on athletics and controlling large student populations.

Like Principal Nutt’s integrity, I’m gone

By cd

June 30, 2005 09:50 AM | Link to this

Neace is the MAN! It’s nice to see some testicular fortitude for a change. You rarely get that from administrations. Most administrators were awful teachers who couldn’t hack the classroom in the first place. But rather than throw away four years of college, they move up and screw things on a larger scale.

The true enemies to the education system are PARENTS and LAWMAKERS. No one doubts that education, particularly in the American South, is lacking. Politicians (Barnes, et. al.) have to deal with the problem. Who are they going to blame, their constituents??????!!!!! It’s really tough to get re-elected with a “You Parents Suck. Vote for Me.” campaign slogan.

Parents are the reason education blows. Education is not their main priority. They want their “entitlements” 1.) A baby sitting service and 2.) High grades to get the HOPE so they don’t have to spend their own money. And rather than teach their children valuable, ethical lessons, parents go in and try to defend their miserable children. We’ve all known the dumb, lazy jock who got special treatment because he played ball. This kid’s parents should be beaten on national television at 8:00 pm on a Thursday…. on every channel like a Presidential Address.

And we wonder why we can’t retain any quality teachers in this state.

By Vern

June 30, 2005 09:53 AM | Link to this

link While I am a new resident to Georgia the issue is not a GA problem alone. I worked recently as a substitute teacher in Duval County FL and saw many instances of kids sleeping in class with no respect for teachers or the admistration. The worst part is the parents of these children think their child is blameless and does no wrong. The PC climate in the US schools give the children the attitude that “we” have to pass them and there are no consiquences for their actions.

By Ron

June 30, 2005 09:57 AM | Link to this

I too have had a principal “throw me to the wolves”. I’ll spare you the details, but I learned very quickly that my prinicipal was more worried about the parent going to the board than he was about supporting his teachers. The child in question smirked and said where I could hear, “I got that teacher. All I gotta do is get my daddy to call and I’ll get what I want”. When politics affect our decisions, then we cannot effectively do the job of teaching and preparing kids for the real world. Maybe Neace’s policy didn’t agree with the county, but everyone is more worried here about bad press and political success, not what’s best for the child. It hurts to see a respected school system be this dense.

By Karen Armsby

June 30, 2005 10:10 AM | Link to this

Steve, Thanks, and let me add something. I had three kids graduate from Dacula HS and they all had excellent teachers, Doc Neace included. I think the majority of Gwinnett’s principals and teachers are also excellent professionals. Over the years I saw Dacula HS build up a better and better faculty and academic reputation, UNTIL Donald Nutt was appointed Principal.

Nutt came in and created a controlling and oppressive work atmosphere for the faculty, locked down on student spirit and culture, and the exodus of talented faculty began. I personally witnessed the departure of many of my kids’ gifted/honors/AP teachers and many other highly qualified and experienced teachers. I have talked with a number of these teachers, and they didn’t want to leave Dacula, but couldn’t work under Nutt any longer. Younger, more inexperienced teachers/coaches have been retained while the veterans have been put on transfer lists, or requested transfers to escape to a more faculty friendly school. Teachers who complained or stood up for themselves found their jobs in peril. There has been a chilling silence of endurance at Dacula HS. I guess Doc Neace’s termination is the straw that broke the camel’s back. The silence has been broken.

I don’t understand how firing a veteran and excellent physics teacher with an unblemished 23 year record of service, can happen in a school system that values achievement. How can the top administrators not know what goes on at Dacula HS? If they are, in fact, clueless, then we have certainly given them enough clues that they should investigate and stop the Dacula brain drain.

I am imploring GCPS to give Dacula HS back to the good teachers and students, and give them a new Principal and Athletic Director. It’s time.

By Linda R

June 30, 2005 03:11 PM | Link to this

For those of you that don’t know… The state Board of Education rescheduled a hearing regarding the firing of Gwinnett County physics teacher Larry Neace.

The new hearing is scheduled for noon Aug. 2 in the executive board room at the state Board of Education, 2053 Twin Towers East in Atlanta. The hearing is open to the public.

Lawyers representing Neace requested the hearing to argue the Gwinnett County school board lacked good cause to fire the veteran teacher. Neace was fired May 6 after he refused to raise a grade he had lowered because a student slept in class. Board policy forbids teachers from lowering grades as punishment.

All those the wish to support him should try to attend!

By Iteach

July 1, 2005 09:38 AM | Link to this

I want to see our teacher unions take some visible action in regards to Neace. I was planning to attend the hearing but it is now scheduled so that I cannot.

By Karen Armsby

July 1, 2005 10:23 AM | Link to this

Iteach, Most teachers have to be back at work that week, don’t they? hmmmm….

I think you can still show support for Doc Neace by writing a letter to the State Superintendent and Board and tell them from your perspective as an in-the-trenches classroom teacher what you have experienced and how it relates to Doc Neace’s situation. The link to the State Bd. of Ed. is on this page, upper left. Send a copy of the letter to the editors of the newspapers and post it on the blogs.

There appear to be a lot of teachers who are suffering in silence under their principals, knowing that if they speak up or challenge the never-ending rules then they risk humiliation, transfer, or termination.

You teachers are professionals who need to reclaim your authority to govern your classrooms, so that you can command respect from all students without being undermined by belligerent parents and arrogant administrators. And the message to the administrators should be to keep back off on the PC rules, stand up and stand behind your professional faculty, and quit caving into every whining complaint. In short, respect your teachers and let them do their jobs.

By Concerned

July 1, 2005 11:36 AM | Link to this

Another example of Dacula HS’s intent on removing any teacher that is able to teach. The now infamous Dacula HS has found itself in the news many times in the last couple of years, None of which has been for its academic prowess. Is Neace the problem? or is it now evident that the leadership at the top is the issue…

By Karen Armsby

July 1, 2005 12:15 PM | Link to this

Concerned, I agree with you, the leadership at Dacula HS appears to be lacking both common sense and professionalism.

It’s my opinion that Dacula HS Principal Nutt used this opportunity to rid himself and Dacula High School of Mr. Neace. Nutt’s administration has been authoritarian, and he’s had a lock-down policy since he arrived at Dacula HS five years ago. His rules and policies squashed student spirit the very first year when he forbad students to decorate lockers or hang banners for sport or academic achievements, a tradition at Dacula and many Gwinnett high schools. Teachers couldn’t decorate their classrooms. He stopped morning & afternoon club announcements. He turned off the TV’s on 9/11, creating intense anxiety in our students!

You may recall that several years ago a complaint was made by a Dacula HS English teacher about a white student portraying a black character in their theater production of John Steinbeck’s ‘Of Mice and Men.’ (no black students auditioned for the part) The Theater teacher, who’s production was approved as part of his curriculum, had coordinated with the language arts teachers who were teaching the novel that term. The protesting teacher had not even read the classic, shame on him, and he gave his students extra credit for writing protest letters to the Principal. Rather than correct the errant English teacher, Mr. Nutt decided that the Dacula community would be harmed by viewing the timeless classic and he stopped the show the very week it was to present its public performances. Fortunately, the show went on at the 14th St. Theater in Atlanta, thanks to the generosity of the Belladonna Repertory Company.

Is anyone at GCPS or the State board listening? The Principal appears to be the problem here, not the teacher.