AJC.com > Opinion > Woman to Woman > Archives > 2005 > May > 03 > Entry
Should the runaway bride be held legally accountable?
Diane Glass, a left-leaning columnist, writes the commentary this week and Shaunti Feldhahn, a right-leaning columnist, responds.
Commentary
Women are abducted every day, but only cute white girls get the big headlines. When we hear stories like Jennifer Wilbank’s – bride-to-be vanishes before nuptials – we think the worst. When we see her pretty deer-in-the-headlights photograph, we want to help.
But deer have an excuse. There’s that oncoming car/road kill thing they have to worry about. Wilbanks just had “issues”. Sure, it was a big wedding. Mommy and Daddy would be disappointed if she backed out. And then there was the possibility of bloody revolt by the 14 bridesmaids forced to buy ugly, expensive gowns. That’s scary stuff. Running might be understandable — if she was under the age of ten.
But Wilbanks is old enough to know better. She should be held legally accountable for triggering a state of panic over her welfare. Her fiancé may valiantly defend her and serve up the platitude: “Everyone is entitled to make a mistake.” But everyone isn’t entitled to commit a crime, which is what Wilbanks did when she made false kidnapping allegations to cover her tracks.
Remember Michael Lasseter. He was charged with disorderly conduct and sued by Airtran Airways when he ran down the “up” escalator to bypass airport security. The difference between Jennifer Wilbanks and those we immediately prosecute for stupidity is that Wilbanks is an attractive, white female from a prominent family. Jennifer seems to have grasped this when she conjured up a “Hispanic man” as one of her alleged kidnappers.
Hispanic = Suspicious. Virginal bride = Everything nice.
Think about it: would a stressed out, runaway groom get the same coddling? Playing the “cute and vulnerable” girl card, intentionally or not, should not get Wilbanks a free ride here. She wasted our time, made false accusations and weakened the trust of an already jaded law enforcement community. Give police more reasons to doubt a woman’s claim about being a crime victim, and they will. Wilbanks not only hurt her family and those involved in her search, she hurt all future victims of crime.
I agree with Jennifer on one thing: she needs to get out more. But next time, do us all a favor and leave a note.
Rebuttal
Like everyone else, I was saddened to hear of the woman who vanished while out for a run just four days before her lavish wedding. I prayed for her safe return, along with many others who could only imagine her family and fiancé’s anguish. I was relieved to learn she was alive – then angry that she’d concocted the whole thing. What sane person would put their loved ones through that torment?
But that is where my anger stops, and is replaced (sometimes grudgingly, I must admit) with pity. Because something must have gone terribly wrong inside Jennifer Wilbanks’ mind or heart, for her to decide that faking a kidnapping (even if it had “worked”) was preferable to looking her fiancé or family in the eye and saying, “I’m not ready for this.”
This week, many of Diane’s points are quite valid. What Wilbanks did was wrong, and she may indeed have to face the consequences. But none of that negates the fact that she appears to be seriously emotionally or mentally troubled (as her attorney says, “not well”). And on top of that, even surrounded by 14 bridesmaids and 600 expectant guests – and living with her fiancé – she apparently felt like she had no-one she could really talk to.
I personally think the desire to string Jennifer up by her manicured toenails arises not because she put law enforcement through a $60,000 wild-goose chase - a valid concern - but because she put her family through an emotional ordeal. Because we ached for her distraught loved ones during the search, we now feel a righteous indignation.
So what do her loved ones think? When she was on her way home, an uncle said it all: “Jennifer had some issues the family was not aware of. We’re looking forward to loving her and talking to her about these issues.” While important, $60,000 in wasted taxpayer dollars is a mere speck compared to the anguish of a family. If that family can exchange justified anger for compassion, and wants to get her the professional help she needs, the public and the legal system should, too.
Comments
By Brian Curtis
May 9, 2005 07:51 AM | Link to this
Maybe some folks were worried and frantic about the disappearance of a random stranger who later turned up fine. But I shrugged it off as another excuse to fill air time with ANYTHING but actual news.
By Lynda
May 9, 2005 07:57 AM | Link to this
Criminal/Old boyfriend in New Mexico!!!!!! Jennifer is a disgrace to our society- I am from Gainesville- She has a criminal record and is known as a homewrecker!!!! We were glad she was moving out of our town!!!!!! She is a thief and doesn’t care for anyone but herself!!!!!!!!! As for the runaway bride crap- America is a free county- India and other countries have pre-arranged marriages- USA is freedom of choice— For the record, Jennifer was obsessed with a classmate of mine and he now lives in New Mexico— GO FIGURE!!!!!!1
By Christie
May 9, 2005 07:57 AM | Link to this
I do feel for Jennifer and the anxiety it sounds like overwhelmed her and caused her to run from her fiance, her family and friends. She made a mistake. That said, people make mistakes every day. We learn from those mistakes by taking responsbility for them and for dealing with the consequences. I believe she must personally apologize to her fiance, her family and her friends. I also believe that she must deal with the consequences of her actions impact on the community. Should she go to jail for this - no - but community service and some sort of financial restitution would seem to be in order here. Obviously she does have some issues she needs to deal with - including a lack of maturity and consideration for her loved ones. While I believe that she must face the consequences of her actions, I respect and applaude her family and friends for standing by her and I wish her and her fiance the very best.
By JS
May 9, 2005 08:04 AM | Link to this
I AM SO TIRED OF SITUATIONS LIKE THIS. I AGREE WITH DIANE, LET IT HAVE BEEN ANYONE ELSE WITH NOT AS MUCH MONEY AND NOT A SO-CALLED CUTE WHITE GIRL (NOT EVEN CLOSE TO CUTE)THIS CASE WOULD HAVE BEEN DONE AND OVER WITH. THIS WOMAN NEEDS TO BE CHARGED BECAUSE SHE DID COMMIT A CRIME AND CAUSED MANY TO ACHE OVER HER DISAPPEARANCE. I AM TIRED OF HEARING ABOUT IT CAUSE, THE WITCH IS MADE EVERYTHING UP AND I DON’T PITY HER. SHE IS AN ADULT AND SHE HAD A CONSIDERABLE AMOUNT OF TIME TO THINK AND MAKE A RATIONAL DECISION ABOUT THE OVERWHELMING FEELINGS SHE WAS HAVING. BOO HOO, SHE IS SORRY, WELL SORRY IS NOT GOING TO CUT IT. IF SHE WAS HAVING DOUBTS OR ISSUES SHE SHOULD HAVE LET SOMEONE KNOW OR CALLED THE WEDDING OFF, THAT’S WHY PEOPLE DON’T USUALLY DO THINGS THEY ARE DOUBTING CAUSE THEY ARE NOT SURE ABOUT THEM. JENNIFER WILBANKS ON THE OUTSIDE IS A WOMAN BUT HAS ACTED LIKE A VERY STUPID CHILD. AND YES PEOPLE MAKE MISTAKES BUT WHEN YOU CROSS THE LINES FROM MAKING A MISTAKE TO COMMITTING A CRIME THAT IS A DIFFERENT STORY.
By rocky
May 9, 2005 08:06 AM | Link to this
She should be made to pay back all monetary expenses used to search for her, as well as community service to get an idea of what kind of labor goes into doing things for someone other than yourself. She should also have to make a PUBLIC STATEMENT that she does herself, rather than hiding behind the pastor of her church, and she should certainly refrain from talking about the forgiveness everyone should have for her. That’s not her decision to make.
By norman
May 9, 2005 08:35 AM | Link to this
Anyonw wanting to escape from the religion-soaked, hypocrisy-drenched white southern middle class has to be helped and applauded.
By chuck
May 9, 2005 08:36 AM | Link to this
They need to determine what the stiffest penalty they have EVER imposed in that county for filing a false report, and have her plead guilty and take that punishment. I doubt that it was anything more than probation. Have a quick hearing in court and then LET IT DIE. Notice to all television news show producers and media outlets. From this point forward, any mention of the runaway bride will result in an immediate channel change.
By Archie
May 9, 2005 08:38 AM | Link to this
Diane did a great job with this one. I am surprised to read of Diane being so hard on a woman, but she makes such valid points this week. Frankly all of these cases where one missing person gets extra attention anger me. Normally the person receiving the attention is just as Diane describes her. I think all people are valuable and all missing people should get some extra attention. I wondered why this young lady was on national news when so many other men and women are missing. Diane was right to say that a man would not get this same coddling. My main thing is let’s treat all missing people as if they are a big story.
By James
May 9, 2005 08:55 AM | Link to this
I have several observations about this: 1) This is SO STUPID! Why is America so obssesed with some poor little rich girl while Americans are dying in Iraq & our government takes away more of our freedoms (Freedom is only a myth in the USA) everyday. Had she been black, poor, muslim or a man, no one would have noticed.
2) MAKE HER PAY! Something tells me she has never had to work very hard in her life. She has never grown up to realize the consequences of her actions. $60,000 is probably nothing since her very well off daddy will pay it if asked to. Community service in a downtown Atlanta homeless shelter or an AIDS Hospice is what she needs. There are people who would KILL to be in her perfectly died shoes. She is obviously a spoiled little girl.
3) Her fiance is STUPID. If he marries this woman (I use woman very loosely,) he gets every heartache he deserves. He should be running to New Mexico, not her. It is very obvious she is going to be VERY HIGH MAITAINENCE!
Mostly, she should be ashamed for the heartache & problems she caused!
By jack
May 9, 2005 09:11 AM | Link to this
Issues. Issues my a*s. She should pay back all of the tax money spent to look for her and then do community service for a year.
By Tim
May 9, 2005 09:19 AM | Link to this
I am tired of people saying ‘everyone makes mistakes’… that is true… BUT I don’t remember any of my mistakes costing a city $60,000… she needs to pay that back to the city!!! she knew exactly what she was doing and knew that by not calling anyone for that amount of time would result in a police search for her… she is a spoiled brat who TWO times has been arrested for shop lifting… this isn’t just some little innocent girl… this is a woman with an arrest record!
By Angie
May 9, 2005 09:23 AM | Link to this
Who cares why she ran out on her fiancee. Who cares what went through her mind or whether she will go back to this guy. Who cares if she ran out on another guy years ago. I for one DO NOT CARE about this story of these people. I’d rather listen to the REAL news. Not which bride left her fiancee at the alter adn cost her family alot of wedding money!!! WHO CARES!!! I’m glad this story did not end up with someone in a body bag in the woods. On to the next story please.
By jack
May 9, 2005 09:44 AM | Link to this
I liked the way Cynthia Tucker turned this into a race issue in her column this past Sunday. She loves trying to bring the different ethnic groups together.
By Lyrazel
May 9, 2005 09:48 AM | Link to this
Another feather in Georgias cap. Let see, so far this year we have had: runaway bride, courthouse shooting, un-pregnant 66 year olds, pistol-using pagent queen, rooster-fight enthusist mayors, corpse hoarding funeral directors, seems every time any reporting occurs in this state it serves to make us into buffoons. Anyone have other GA fun facts? Maybe we truly are the rubes of the world.
Jennifer made a false 911 call to police in New Mexico—so if Albuquerque isnt interested in prosecuting her—where it was made—tough bananas. Jennifer made no illegal phone calls in GA to police—so they cant send a bill for being used to do their job. Technically, she was missing person and the GA police did what they do when white virgins go missing: they began the search before the 24 hr waiting period—see everybody else in the state who is not an affluent white has to endure 24 hours of wait.
But was it a thorough police search? The taxi driver who took her to Greyhound was never asked to come forward and but recieved a SIZEABLE fare—o at least $40 dollars to get from point A to downtown Garnett Street Terminal. Big fares are remembered, and all fares are recorded at Taxi Central. (Maybe the cabbie was Hispanic and in fear of arrest by GA deputies bent on incarcerating anyone before having all facts. Minorities know to lay low when a white virgin goes missing since they are first to be blamed.) Jennifer blaming a Hispanic just shows just how much prejudice Georgias affluent suburbanites maintain against unacceptable minorities.
Nobody looked at her recent credit card purchases that would have indicated she bought a ticket A WEEK prior AND took out money. Ticket takers at Greyhound were never asked to check their files and her name was on the ticket because she bought it on a credit card. Also, before bording a Greyhound bus your carry-ons are checked—and ID—new rules to protect Greyhounds drivers thanks to prior knife-wielding bus passengers. Again, another official & Jennifer met. So thats faulty police investigation by starting a search before all the facts were gathered. Checking to see if she left town should have been on their roster—despite insistance that she would never go and good christian stuff people hide behind when speaking of wayward white women. Seeing all the facts—its a poor investigation so really, what is there to pay for? Sour grapes?
As to the loving fiance who will take her back I think she clearly said: “No,” bubba. So get back that ring you mortgaged your mothers house for, divy up the gifts you cant send back and have a good stiff drink in those fancy cut glass snifters. Count your blessings, bubba. Think of the hell you would have trying to divorce this fruitcake with issues and the hell she is going to have trying to find a job.
By E. Lewis
May 9, 2005 09:57 AM | Link to this
I was relatively fine with this situation at least at the beginning. Sure she may have gotten cold feet, and her family got the media and law enforcement as involved as possible in an effort to find her because they had no idea what had happened. (How they could not know is another story.) The police may have gone the extra mile because, let’s face it, she was a pretty white woman from a “good” family marrying a town’s favorite son from a predominant, well-to-do family in a wedding that most of us could only dream about.
That so much $$$ was spent finding an adult woman who had simply run away is not enough to cause the DA to file charges. Where the problems really start is when she calls 911 in Albuquerque and claims that she had been kidnapped by several Hispanics in a van. For a brief time you know the attack dogs were salivating and looking from Atlanta to Las Vegas to New Mexico for every Hispanic person driving a van. That’s a lot of people who had done nothing wrong, but because a woman decided to tell the police a fake story about her fake abduction and because so many were ready to believe her, resources were spent looking for something that was never there.
Getting cold feet is not a crime, but giving the police a false report is, and for that this runaway bride should pay.
By Roxie
May 9, 2005 09:59 AM | Link to this
No, Cynthia didn’t “turn it into a race issue” any more than Diane did. They just stated what would’ve & and wouldn’t have happend if the circumstances where different.
Cynthia was commenting on the nature of the news media in such situations, while Diane was talking more about personal responsibility and just touched on the news media nature.
I agree with both, completely.
Anyway, this woman needs to be held accountable, personally. I also want my 5 days back where we fixated on her and not infinently MORE important issues.
By norman
May 9, 2005 10:00 AM | Link to this
Jack; yes, Cynthia Tucker did her usual bit. But you know that she is right that a runaway black woman (if any blackwoman would be getting married is doubtful) would have attracted far less attention. You are going to get it from Ben and his black ladies on the site. You know, in the good old days the newspapers never reported black wedding and funerals. Now they do. What does this say?
By rocky
May 9, 2005 10:01 AM | Link to this
I agree with Diane and disagree with Shaunti. It’s official. The end of the world must be near.
By norman
May 9, 2005 10:03 AM | Link to this
Lyrazel: Atlanta doesn’t have high-speed car chases and freeway shooters like LA. And our Hispanics know their place.
By latarsha
May 9, 2005 10:06 AM | Link to this
SHE SHOULD BE PROSECUTED FOR LYING, SHE COULD HAVE CAUSED AN UNCOMFORTABLE SITUATION FOR SOME UNSUSPECTING HISPANICS IF SHE HAD PLAYED THIS ALL THE WAY OUT, IF HER NAME WAS JENNIFER NO-BANKS THIS WOULD BE A MOOT POINT.
By Roxie
May 9, 2005 10:15 AM | Link to this
Norman
What does it say? Not much.
By Ben
May 9, 2005 10:24 AM | Link to this
Thanks for remembering I’m here Norman. Let me start by answering your last question from last week’s forum. No, it’s not against my religion to hire a black or hispanic to cut my lawn. I wouldn’t hire anyone to cut my lawn because I am capable of doing it myself, and I enjoy it. HOWEVER, if I were to hire someone, it would definitely be a white person! That way I can sit on my patio drinking a cold beer while I watch him struggle in sweat in the heat.
Those that think Cynthia was trying to turn it into a race issue need to go stare at the man in the mirror and ask themselves if they would have given two sh**s if it was a black woman. She was just pointing out the facts that America, or more specifically Georgia, doesn’t want to hear. The bottom line is this — you don’t deny she is right, you just point out the fact that she brings up race. The example she gave is not the only one that exists.
And, NORMAN, I’m not some black militant out to right the wrongs that have plagued my people. I actually think people OVERREACTED, and I even joked with my wife, “aren’t you outraged that she said a white woman kidnapped her.” WHO CARES ABOUT HER and HER STUPID PROBLEMS.
I could care less if they prosecute her. What would really hurt is if they barred her from making any money off her story! That would be justice for me.
By jack
May 9, 2005 10:33 AM | Link to this
I don’t bother reading what Diane or Shaunti have to say. I have my opinion and I don’t care what they think. Cynthia Tucker’s column is good for nothing but lining the bottom of a bird cage.
By Bruce
May 9, 2005 10:35 AM | Link to this
I agree that every penny should be paid back and 4 years of community service wouldn’t hurt either. At least this one cannot be blamed on a man.
By norman
May 9, 2005 10:47 AM | Link to this
You guys are happy to sentence a woman to community service. Like you delighted in Martha Stewart’s sentencing. And then there is Lynndie England and General, now Colonel, Karpinski. The men get away with murder.
How do we know that Ms. Walbanks’s lovely Christian father or uncle didn’t diddle with her when she was younger? That is what Christian males tend to do, both white and black and Hispanicola as well.
Ben: glad to hear you like to cut grass in the heat. That is characteristic of your people. I have one cutting my grass at one of my vacation homes the other end of Georgia. Cynthia Tucker is a good writer and I enjoy her columns; she actually can be pretty tough on wayward blacks as well as on whites.
By Archie
May 9, 2005 10:48 AM | Link to this
Ben, Dianne mentioned Ms Wilbanks race in the first 11 words, but only Cynthia Tucker gets called out. Heck even Rocky agrees with Diane. I am waiting for the fire in the sky. This is a good column to focus on how we the public should make our media care for all missing people male,female, and all races. Like many people I get those missing persons’ cards in the mail but I never see the people on tv. There should be no more focusing on one missing person on tv. Every human being matters to somebody but Angela Tuck said the ajc.com got 1 million more hits when the Wilbanks story became news so you know what talks. We need the address of CNN and other media outlets so that we can ask for coverage of every missing person. I am sure there are some men,white,black, etc. that are missed by their families. There is a wife out there that would love to find her husband and give him a decent burial. America’s Most Wanted. How America’s Missing.
By paula
May 9, 2005 10:49 AM | Link to this
I agree wholeheartedly with Lyrazel.
The major point is that the normal steps in a missing person claim were overlooked because of this woman’s place in the Atlanta community. I guarantee the next black Jane Doe or just plain white Jane Doe who goes missing will be done the way everyone else is. This spoiled little Duluth woman is really not legally responsible for the “other track” the investigators took on the search for her. I do not even really blame them. The police department have the media, the church, and the 2 families involved looking at them for answers and they were just basing their search on the information they had been given. This was a sane, level headed girl out for a jog. Just like many of us who are trying to do something with others standing over our shoulder watching, mistakes are made.
I would like to see the fragile little flower make a statement on her own. She can even make a video of her own and pass it around if she is legitimately too shaken by all of the attention she is getting. SHE needs to make a statement, not a pastor who admits that he does not even really know the girl.
She should also make attempts to turn this in to something positive. Build a house for Habitat, go to a senior center and help out for several months on a given day, volunteer at a shelter for battered women. Pay back the community without being taken to court and asked to do so.
By LaShelle
May 9, 2005 11:03 AM | Link to this
Did anyone even know that at the same time we were watching Runaway Wilbanks’s life story, there was a “Mattie’s Call” going on for an elderly black woman who had altzheimers?? We didn’t even hear about that until she was found! I hate to see what would have happened if she hadn’t been found. Once again, tsk tsk tsk on the media.
By lozen
May 9, 2005 11:04 AM | Link to this
I think she should be held legally accountable in every way possible, but come on ….we all know she won’t. Her wealthy family will bail her out as they have been doing in the past apparently. Her fiancee bases a relationship on “She likes football, likes to eat and is a Georgia dog fan!” How incredibly shallow! Obviously the woman has had problems for a long time. Why hasn’t she already had psychological help for shoplifting after two + arrests? And please, if this woman is 32 and still a virgin, that’s another sign that something is wrong!
By Ben
May 9, 2005 11:07 AM | Link to this
Being the positive, free-thinking man that I am, I guess I am able to see the good that can from something like this. Law enforcement is going to get a bad rap regardless of what they do, and the same holds true for the media. As an outsider looking in, the media played, and can play, a HUGE role. If that effort was exerted for as many missing people as possible, fewer people would end up dead or missing. Yeah, law enforcement didn’t wait 24 hours, but if they acted immediately on every case, imagine the benefits.
I guess the problem is actually believing the media and law enforcements concerns are genuine.
Who cares about the money the city spent, they were probably going to misuse it anyway. Just be grateful it didn’t pad some crooked politicians personal motives or get spent on laptops and art for the office.
By Mara
May 9, 2005 11:08 AM | Link to this
So people think that she should have to be punished here in Georgia? As Lyrazel said, if the state of New Mexico, or the Albequerque Police have no interest in charging her for any legal infraction, then Georgia has no standing there’s no crime committed in the state. I may have thought different of she’d left a fake ransom note or something, but she didn’t. What she did do, just up and leaving town, isn’t illegal. It’s thoughtless, but not illegal. Did she ask the cops to look for her? Did she want the news to broadcast that really hideous picture of her 24-7? When has it been illegal to pull up stakes and leave? There’s no law that says you have to inform anyone about your comings and goings. People running out on their families isn’t unheard of, but do all of them get this kind of scrutiny? She was rude, and inconsiderate in regard to her family, but she shouldn’t be liable for the choices that 3rd and 4th parties make on her behalf.
The one unfortunate aspect of this is whether other reports of missing persons will be less likely to be investigated.
By Ben
May 9, 2005 11:13 AM | Link to this
Actually Mara, she talked the the sheriff when she called the house, and that can constitute as a report to local authorities.
Lesson learned from this ordeal: If you want a free flight and want to avoid the HORRIBLE Hartsfield security — take off and go missing! Say some crazy white guy named Norman abducted you and made you carry his groceries and cut his lawn.
By jack
May 9, 2005 11:13 AM | Link to this
Ben - I can look in the mirror and say race matters not to my opinion. I am glad she was not found dead. Her color has nothing to do with it. I just get sick of everything in this city is black vs. white. In this town, blacks are every bit as “racist” as whites.
By jack
May 9, 2005 11:20 AM | Link to this
How am I doin Norm?
By AJC1975
May 9, 2005 11:24 AM | Link to this
Have any of you seen the movie Crash? I saw it lastnight and it was excellent! I highly recommend it. It is a social commentary similar to what is being discussed here today…
J.Wilbanks is a stark raving lunatic, who deserves to have her behind busted for the mess hse has made. Her Fiancee’ and their families are nothing but enablers!!!
It must be wonderful to be a White woman in America…basically the world is your oyster and you don’t have to take responsibilty for your actions simply b/c your white, pure, and fragile like a flower…oh and crazy as a wood lizard!!!!
By Ben
May 9, 2005 11:26 AM | Link to this
Jack — Blacks are sometimes more racist than whites. And I’m glad that you can look in the mirror and say race doesn’t matter, there are very few of us that can say that.
I too am glad she didn’t turn up dead — and that’s about the extent of my concern regarding the Runaway Bride. I just like seeing and reading how people get so spun up in matters that ultimately don’t concern them one bit. For example, a lot of people moaning about what she did comment on how she let down her family. SO WHAT, since when does her family’s business involve someone else’s opinion.
And don’t forget the Christian’s or Catholics or whoever who were OUTRAGED that they were living in sin. They are the biggest group of people that need to get a mirror and take a look. But I think they have those funhouse mirrors though, so it would be for naught!
By jack
May 9, 2005 11:37 AM | Link to this
I agree Ben. As soon as she was found alive, the media should have let it drop. She did hurt her family but that is their business. (her friends are saying that she wanted to have pre-marital sex before they were married and that’s why she ran. BFD!)
By Jeanamari
May 9, 2005 11:39 AM | Link to this
Honestly, I just think its funny.
It is so amazing to me how quickly everyone jumps when something happens to a White woman/person. Remember Susan Smith (she was a White woman who blamed a Black man for stealing her car and kidnapping her children when she killed them herself). I knew nothing had happened to her, it was obvious that she had cold feet, I mean look at him. He is definately something I would NOT want to wake up to every morning. Very creepy. I just want to know what the law is in Georgia on how long a person is missing before you can consider them a missing person because I’m sure the families of the murdered children in Atlanta over 20 yrs ago would like to know. Make her pay for what she has done.
By Ben
May 9, 2005 11:40 AM | Link to this
Ohhhh. so she wanted a test drive?
By Ben
May 9, 2005 11:42 AM | Link to this
Well she definitely screwed him big time!
By AllaboutME
May 9, 2005 11:42 AM | Link to this
…to those bridesmaids and ex-groom: sell your stuff on Ebay now!….you will re-coup losses while the whole issue is fresh in peoples minds…also, always have a decent photo for media display in case you skip town…lashelle no one counts the amount of native, hispanic, black people missing in this state because they dont matter…norman, i can clearly see the white church influence over the deputies…so obviously it was the church calling the shots…not the cops…dont ya think…ben…white folk dont make good gardeners…they sunburn then file lawsuits for poor working conditions…
By Debra
May 9, 2005 11:45 AM | Link to this
I think Jennifer is a sick individual who needs medical and psycological help. She appears to be on some type of drug which could be the result of the “deer in headlight” eyes. I think a decision to make her pay or not should be made without any further delay. I feel she should be made to repay the money that was taken from taxpayers and the communities to search for her. Thereafter, I feel that she should be left alone to resolve her personal issues.
By Georgia On My Mind
May 9, 2005 12:02 PM | Link to this
You know what, what Jennifer Willbanks did reminds me alot of what Julia Roberts did in the movie ‘Sleeping With the Enemy’. Do you think she watched it the night she bought her bus ticket?
Like alot of you, I’m happy she wasn’t brought home in a body bag but I can’t help but think how wrong she was. She should have to pay for what she did. It was wrong and she hurt alot of people as well as outraged alot of people. I just want her to apologize for what she has done and NOT through her attorney!
By Crystal
May 9, 2005 12:06 PM | Link to this
The more I hear about Jennifer Wilbanks the less I want to (such as this forum, editorials, blah, blah, blah).This personifies the often quoted “much ado about nothing”.
By Mara
May 9, 2005 12:08 PM | Link to this
Sorry Ben. You’re right, I had forgotten that she spoke with Chief Belcher. But previous to that conversation, no laws had been broken and afterward the efforts were discontinued so the demand that she pay restitution for the cost of the search is unreasonable. Some things just need to be shrugged off. The amount of oxygen this situation has consumed is disproportionate to its importance to society. Everybody should just let it go so we can move on to more important things like discussing how obnoxious and nauseating Dubya is or how the evil “Slick Willie” Clinton corrupted the country. On to bigger and better discussions, I say!
By Ben
May 9, 2005 12:10 PM | Link to this
Another thing I don’t understand is why people think she owes them an apology. She may need to apologize to her family, friends and maybe even the community — but she doesn’t owe people who decided to immerse themselves into her ordeal anything — unless she stole their remote controls and delivered their newspapers.
By Lee
May 9, 2005 12:16 PM | Link to this
I agree and disagree with everyone on this. (ooh, that get your attention?)
I think Ms. Wilbanks’ true “issues” are still to be known, and until they are known, no charges should be brought up.
If she just wanted to “meet” the guy she found online, and do a “test drive” then, well, I can see why she might not have wanted to tell her family & hubby to be.
If really did not want to marry him, and was running away, then she needs the therapy and counseling, not the criminal charges. From the news, she bought the ticket a week before she ran, so this was not as “impulsive” as it looked at the beginning.
If the family pressure got too much, many bridesmaids to deal with, and a wedding to deal with ad infinitum, then she has those issues to deal with.
I don’t see where charging her would be beneficial, except in the face of her meaning to do damage to her family, fiance, or anyone else. If she was doing some important soul-searching, then she needs to complete that process. Yes, she did file a false report, and the New Mexico authorities are not going to move on it. Why not? I think because it would not be beneficial at all. You’d waste more resources trying to get back what you put in.
By norman
May 9, 2005 12:17 PM | Link to this
Crash was a fine movie. And I was most impressed, not by the race stuff, but by the fact that all the people with bad motives ended up doing good, while the one guy (the white cop, who insisted on changing his racist partner) who tried to do good was the one who ended up killing someone. This says something about do-gooders, I think.
Another good flic was Kingdom of God, in which the Muslims are portrayed historically accurately as more honest and trust worthy than the miserable European christians.
In Crash, the portrayal of LA as a place where every group hates the other groups is correct and authentic. It is found in all large cities. Atlanta is not the only place.
By Daniel
May 9, 2005 12:18 PM | Link to this
Jennifer knew she would get sympathy in “her racist community” by raising the spectre that she had been abducted by “an hispanic male”. Diane is “right on”, once again. Shaunti thinks that if she ignores the truth long enough and sincerely enough; maybe it will go away.
By SUZAN
May 9, 2005 12:20 PM | Link to this
I for one am sick to death of the runaway bride give it a rest already. There’s genocide in dafur, possible nucs in Korea, Teachers being fired for trying to hold students accountable for thier actions. We are in a never ending war and this is it, this is all there is to talK about. We migt as well scrutinze Jlos newest dress as a major story. The girls as problems leave her alone so that she can get the help she needs without all of this disgusting nosing into her life
By Lyrazel
May 9, 2005 12:20 PM | Link to this
Telling the sherrif she was ok is no reason to have to pay the police squad for their premature searches. Her lie happened only once in NM to a NM 911 operator. Once in police custody she told the truth. If and only IF she had filed a false report, lied to GA police while on phone; could she have been charged with something. Dont you think they would have jailed her—booked her for anything if they could—so not to look so—bad?
By norman
May 9, 2005 12:21 PM | Link to this
Ben: what did you think of the way your people were portrayed in Soul Plane?
By mel
May 9, 2005 12:25 PM | Link to this
As a Christian myself, I’m not outraged that they were living in sin. I’m outraged that their pastor had the nerve to get on TV and quote scriptures and talk about all the premarital counseling they received, and how Godly and holy they are (in other words, more Godly and holy than the people who are judging her). This is truly hypocritical to me. Perhaps if he was focused on actually counseling them, and not on appeasing their rich, 10% tithe-paying families, he would have discerned that something was very wrong with her (and John).
As far as Jennifer is concerned, I want her to do community service and make restitution to her city, as well as apologize publicly. Not through her pastor, but personally to her friends, family, and city.
And their are many, many people who look at her and don’t see a criminal. They never will. But to me, she is a liar, a fraud, and a thief.
By Vincent
May 9, 2005 12:28 PM | Link to this
I agree with Diane. That seems to be America’s nightmare. When a poor, fragile white girl gets hurt or damaged, America’s heart bleeds and everyone thinks that that could have been their daughter (Jessica Lynch) for example. Wasn’t there a black girl with Jessica Lynch when they rescued her (I think her name was Shoshonne or something like that.).
And Jack, the reasons things are black and white, is because things are not treated fairly. Whenever something is wrong on the news, they quickly reveal the picture of the black person that committed the crime, and then are reluctant to reveal the picture of the white criminal. If everything on the news, etc., got equal treatment, there would be nothing for black people to complain about.
By norman
May 9, 2005 12:28 PM | Link to this
Ben: not that the Christians were outraged that Jennifer and John Mason were living in sin, but that their clergy reps never seemed to have taken up that issue, relevant to their particular religious superstition.
Which is worse, when redneck Protestants live up to their ridiculous beliefs or do not? I confess I don’t know which is worse: hypocrisy or honest foolishness.
By Ben
May 9, 2005 12:34 PM | Link to this
Norman — I was disappointed in Soul Plane, I thought it was going to be a lot funnier. I mean it had it’s moments, but it could have been funnier to me. It would have been even worse if Snoop Dogg wasn’t in it.
But you know, Soul Plane was a movie made for fun, for laughs. What do YOU think of the way your people were portrayed in ROOTS? How about Mississippi Burning?
By Ben
May 9, 2005 12:42 PM | Link to this
That’s funny! 10% tithe-paying family. I think Forbes needs to recalculate their riciest people list. The “so-called” church soliciting 10% in the name of Jesus has rank him up there past Gates, Trump and Oprah!
By Ben
May 9, 2005 12:43 PM | Link to this
That’s funny! 10% tithe-paying family. I think Forbes needs to recalculate their richest people list. The “so-called” church soliciting 10% in the name of Jesus has rank him up there past Gates, Trump and Oprah!
By AllaboutME
May 9, 2005 12:49 PM | Link to this
…you mean she wasnt a virgin?…say it aint so…say it aint so…I thought virginity was prerequisite…heard people are driving by his house saying: DONT GO THROUGH WITH IT…and stud muffin will have no time shagging some other before vows….can we blame this on Ted Kennedy?
By lozen
May 9, 2005 12:53 PM | Link to this
Hmmm. Kinda shows how effective the church’s premarital counseling is, huh?
By Elaine
May 9, 2005 12:54 PM | Link to this
Jennifer Wilbanks’ problems don’t interest me much. Either she’ll get her life together, or she won’t. What really troubles me is the attitude of John Mason.
I hear echoes of Andrea Yates when this young man bites down and resolves blindly to stick by this woman no matter what, to marry her if she’ll have him. In both his case and that of Yates, I see a person before whom misery and dysfunction were standing in plain sight, but ignored and denied, mainly because their religious upbringing encouraged followers not to “take the easy way out.” In Yates’ case that would have meant saying no to her husband’s demands for more children, all of whom were to be home-schooled. She cut off her own sensible misgivings and slogged on, desperately hoping that God or Daddy would look down on her favorably for having “fought the good fight.” We all know how things ended up with Mrs. Yates, and I wonder if anyone close to her (especially her ex-husband Rusty) would now be willing to rethink the rigid, unyielding, “must persevere no matter what” attitude that led to their unspeakable tragedy.
John Mason needs to beware. He thinks he wants to marry Jennifer Wilbanks, a person obviously unsuited for marriage to anyone. He believes this is the “good” thing, the “noble” thing, the “Christian” thing to do. I believe that too many Christians are pressured to walk straight into miserable situations and stay there. They do this because in the eyes of their parents, pastors and fellow congregants, this makes them superior to others who make choices out of compassion for themselves, at the risk of a brief spell of disapproval from the judgmental people around them.
Unhappy marriages lead to unhappy children and sometimes much worse. I hope John will be just a tiny bit “selfish” this time around.
By rocky
May 9, 2005 12:56 PM | Link to this
It never really occurred to me that we don’t hear much about black people who go missing, but even I have to admit that it seems like we do hear more about the pretty white girls who are missing and not much about the homely black girls who are. I wonder why that is? I find it especially interesting that this nutjob has had THREE previous arrests for shoplifting! Isn’t she from a WEALTHY family? There are a lot of stinky layers to this onion.
By Connie
May 9, 2005 01:04 PM | Link to this
First off, this story got WAYYYYY too much coverage. And HELLO??? Her family says she has “issues” they weren’t aware of?? Two shop -lifting arrests???? Who ARE these people??? Her family has money and is well-known in the community. If any of us had been arrested like she’s been, we would have served jail time and probation AND community service. Next time, instead of spending $100K on their spoiled daughter’s wedding, maybe a nice donation to a local charity might be in order.
This woman needs to be held accountable for her actions for once in her life. She needs to pay back Duluth the money they spent hunting for her. And I feel for all the police officers who couldn’t go to the funeral of a fallen comrade because she decided to “take a hike”.
By lozen
May 9, 2005 01:07 PM | Link to this
Elaine, you are so right! I kept having those kind of thoughts about how people, out of a sense of doing the right thing, make these horrible mistakes. You did a great job bringing that all together.
By mel
May 9, 2005 01:08 PM | Link to this
Rocky, wealthy people shoplift too. Trust me…I used to work department store security. We caught many a housewife. We also caught college students, business people in town for conventions (downtown store), and teens with their wealthy or middle class parents. Not all crime is linked to disadvantage. Some people steal because they want to, and they can. And the response is almost always the same: “You’re actually going to call the police on me? There are real criminals out there and you guys are picking on me?” It reeks of entitlement.
By dmharper
May 9, 2005 01:10 PM | Link to this
It seems in every article about Jennifer Wilbanks that I’ve read there is no mention of the deepest darkest thought that I believe most people had when they first heard she was missing. That thought being, “she’s dead, and the fiance did it.” As the husband of a woman who, when we were engaged, was raped and sodomized at gun point, my heart goes out to every single person who had those dark thoughts as a result of Jennifer Wilbank’s “prank”. This is one messed up little girl. She needs help. But she also needs to pay for what she did. I suspect many of the people who made comments above about Jennifer being “coddled”, “spoiled”, etc. are correct. Having a criminal record where there is no evidence of a repeat offender showing any remorse, and getting by pretty much scott free is evidence enough. I also find the repeated defense of her, her family’s, and her fiances devotion to Christ deeply troubling in that either they didn’t learn any thing from those teachings, or those teachings have no teeth. As a runner, Jennifer’s been running from some thing for quite some time now. One way or another Jennifer’s got a lot to learn.
By Monica
May 9, 2005 01:13 PM | Link to this
I wonder if Jennifer was watching the same news station I was and saw a man representing the Hispanic community, who had printed “missing” flyers in spanish. How sad that she concocted a story to explain running away because of “issues.”
If she broke the law, she should be charged with a crime. Plain and simple. So she has “issues.” Show me one criminal who doesn’t.
By Tony
May 9, 2005 01:15 PM | Link to this
For those who believe Jennifer received attention because she was a rich white girl. Simply say that she got a lot of attention. That is the fact, everything else is judgement.
Another fact to consider is the Peterson trail. This might have motivated people to assume the worst and to react hastingly.
Judge not, otherwise you will never become one with the total. With fragments you will be obsessed, with small things you will jump to conclusions. Once you have judged you have stopped growing. Judgement means a stale state of mind. And the mind always wants judgement, because to be in a process is always hazardaous and uncomfortable.
In fact, the journey never ends. One path ends, another begins: one door closes, another opens. You reach a peak; a higher peak is always there. God is an endless journey. Only those who are so courageous that they don’t bother about the goal, but are content with the journey, can be content to just live in the moment and grow into it; only those are able to walk in the total.
By Sabrina
May 9, 2005 01:25 PM | Link to this
I wonder why it has taken so long for Jennifer’s past to come out. Being caught shoplifting is a serious offense and it shows Jennifer’s true character. If she had been given serious punishment for shoplifting, we would not be having this discussion today. Six months to a year in jail would have enhanced Jennifers character and she would have been able to handle her 600 guest wedding with a lot less stress. Some may ask, “how would jail for shoplifting have kept this episode out of the press” and I would say - Jennifer would have learned that their are punishments for stupid rich people, just like there are for poor people. She has been coddled for too long and if her shoplifting past can be used as an indicator, she will continue to make stupid decisions - because people continue to enable her to do so. Jennifer deserves a real punishment, because she could have picked up a phone and called someone - anybody in the Duluth zipcode. I believe she planned the entire thing and should stop hiding behind her family and confess. But, I bet she never will.
By jack
May 9, 2005 01:30 PM | Link to this
If the media ignored race and concentrated on the person only, it would be better.
Norman, you never heard that the preacher’s children raise twice the hell as the heathen’s?
By lozen
May 9, 2005 01:31 PM | Link to this
Tony, cutting and pasting stuff on here (as long as it’s short) is okay for those who don’t have anything original to say, I guess. But when you don’t say who really wrote it or where you got it from, it’s like claiming it is your original thoughts. Who wrote your last two paragraphs in your 1:15 post?
By Angie
May 9, 2005 01:34 PM | Link to this
I’m sure some movie studio has already made her an offer for a film about her story….”The REAL Runaway Bride”…starring Julia Roberts and Richard Gere no doubt!!! Or maybe just a made-for-TV-movie??? So, when are the “sweeps” weeks? Check your local TV listings….
By JT
May 9, 2005 01:36 PM | Link to this
I believe she should be charged with whatever someone else would be charged for filing a false police report. As far as the cost to taxpayers, the family should offer to reimburse law enforcement. But the amount spent was at the discretion of law enforcement. If she were “poor white trailer” person, dare I say, no more than $2 would have been spent.
By jack
May 9, 2005 01:37 PM | Link to this
How long before she is on Oprah?
By LaShelle
May 9, 2005 01:38 PM | Link to this
Sabrina, you’re absolutely right and what’s worse is her family won’t make her tell the truth which is how she got here in the first place! It’s makes me absolutely SICK to my stomach that this has gone as far as it has! This is ridiculous! I don’t care to know her life’s story because you know what, no matter what everyone says, to me she is still a silver-spoon-fed spoiled a*s brat who needed her a*s whooped when she was small and obviously didn’t get it.
By rhonda
May 9, 2005 01:42 PM | Link to this
She need to be held for some of the stuff she did because faking a kidnapping is wrong and if she didnt want to get marry she shoudda just told the man NO instead of faking a kidnapping so will not have to marry him, now that is wrong. Now that down and dirty so yeah lock her up and throw away the key.
By LILANTA
May 9, 2005 01:46 PM | Link to this
SEND HER GOT DAMN A*S TO DAMN JAIL
By Lyrazel
May 9, 2005 01:48 PM | Link to this
So, exactly WHO is doing the abstinence before marriage or is this an IDEAL that goodly people are unable to put into practice? Did we not just debate it here at W to W—and all who did not were berated against those whose squeaky clean lifestyle was the essence of their holy matrimony? Did Jennifers church look the other way because of the amount of cash the families brought in—because they were going to be married eventually—because they rented the church for lots of cash? OR was it used as an issue to further drive Jennifer to this U-turn at the altar being she had sinned so against god and morality she had no choice but wed him.
Maybe her prank was not a prank but THE ONLY WAY SHE COULD GET OUT OF IT…with parents so adamant she wed, clergy so adamant she wed, and a husband-to-be ready to make her a baby factory of one…
I never saw the Yates connection until today and its unplesant because Jennifer does seem like the kind who would wack-out if she was overstressed with kids.
At least she likes to eat—she cant be all bad.
By jack
May 9, 2005 01:51 PM | Link to this
Someone alert the grammer police! LOL!!
By LaShelle
May 9, 2005 01:51 PM | Link to this
LMAO @ Lilanta
By Archie
May 9, 2005 01:54 PM | Link to this
Abuquerque talk radio station KAGM-FM has offered Wilbanks a $30,000 job to co-host a morning talk show, cheerfully admitting that it’s a publicity ploy.
The above statement comes from the article in this newspaper. It should burn some people up since many broadcast journalism majors will never get to work in their field. I would like to thank all the posters that pointed out her arrests because I didn’t know she was arrested 3 times for shoplifting. My goodness this lady has some character issues. Each time she was given a slap on the wrist. Man if I tried to steal $1,740 worth of goods I would be put under the jailhouse. She needs to pay for something.
By jack
May 9, 2005 01:55 PM | Link to this
You wouldn’t stand by your mate if they drowned your 5 children? What happened to commitment?
By Lyrazel
May 9, 2005 01:59 PM | Link to this
jack…she came home and Oprah was on the phone saying “Dont talk to anybody before coming on my show and I will give you $100,000 to explain your side.”
Sounds made for Jerry Springer more than Oprah…or Judge Judy…
By LaShelle
May 9, 2005 02:04 PM | Link to this
Jack, if I found out that my mate drowned my children, the police better start looking for me, damn commitment unless your talking about a looney hospital!
By jack
May 9, 2005 02:11 PM | Link to this
You got that right Lashelle. (of course I was kidding)
By LaShelle
May 9, 2005 02:12 PM | Link to this
Correction: Jack, if I found out that my mate drowned my children, the police better start looking for me, damn commitment unless you’re talking about a looney hospital!
By Tony
May 9, 2005 02:21 PM | Link to this
Lozen, I’m glad I have your permission to post. I too wish some post where shorter and others on topic. I would have hoped since you feel the need to admonish me, you’d admonish all including yourself who at times go on about nothing for days.
I’m sorry you think I haven’t anything original to say. I had hoped to convey a point about judgment. Using partial statements to make that point is not claiming those statements to be mine. We all learn from somewhere. I should say some of us learn from somewhere!
The last two paragraphs is from a story about wisdom and judgment. It doesn’t say who the author is except [Thank you to Sir Craig! — Ed:Anon.]
Last week you asked about my post concerning attitudes, that was from Charles Swindoll. Typically I post who wrote it at the end, sometimes though, author is unknown.
By Benin Dakar
May 9, 2005 02:21 PM | Link to this
Why shouldn’t Jennifer Willbanks be held accountable for her actions?
Moreover, we should question why the press and the public became so quickly infatuated with the unknown bride-to-be from Duluth, Georgia? What does embracing this troubled woman’s story mean about us as a society and as a nation?
Prior to Willbanks’ disappearance, we are now learning, that she had previously been an “anonymous” troubled young woman, who is no stranger to law enforcement and the judicial system. Willbanks, who comes from an affluent family, has a penchant for shoplifting things that she obviously has the economic wherewithal to buy for herself. From the light weight punishment that Willbanks received for her prior crimes (a felony charge reduced to completing a pretrial diversion program), we can assume that Willbanks’ was just lucky or her class, race, and youth helped her escape more severe outcomes.
My view is that professional help and legal accountability will do a lot to help Willbanks begin to overcome her past and develop into an emotionally mature adult woman. This is not about punishment, so much as it is about helping a troubled woman on the eve of her middle years, find recovery and a since of self-esteem and self-worth that seems thus far to have eluded her.
I think that the obsession by the press and the public with the Willbanks case in an indicator of our desire for escapism from the grim realty of ever-increasing gasoline prices, a changing economy, the war in Iraq, and the ever present threat of terrorism, just to name a few.
The story of a run-away bride from a small town in Georgia has a folksy gossipy quality to it and although the outcome could have been gruesome, we were all guaranteed that the tragedy would have been more of a personal kind for Willbanks’ family, with us as nosey interlopers, who otherwise would remain unaffected.
I am glad that Jennifer Willbanks is back home with her loved ones and most of all that she in unhurt and still in the land of the living. I will be even happier when Willbanks gets the help she needs and moves on successfully with her life.
And, we the press and public need to move on too.
By LaShelle
May 9, 2005 02:22 PM | Link to this
I know Jack, so am I, lol…
By Bruce
May 9, 2005 02:32 PM | Link to this
It is only Monday and we have already wore this topic out. Next topic plllleeeeeaaasssse!
By Cato
May 9, 2005 02:32 PM | Link to this
I have it on good authority that this is not the first time Jennifer has run from a man. An acquaintance of mine took her to a Billy Joel concert downtown a few years back. At that time he lived in the Four Seasons condo complex (yes, she does like her men well placed). They valet parked her car and took her car to the concert. Things went well until the concert was over when she began to walk faster and faster and finally running through the crowd. My friend assumed that she had a problem with crowds (does she?) and proceeded on to his car where he waited for 45 minutes. When she didn’t show he drove back to the Four Seasons to find that she had ran up there all the way from the arena (she is a runner, maybe for a reason?). She had taken her car and left. The next day a friend called and said that they were calling to give a message from Jennifer: that she had a really nice time, but she really had to go. Now we know that she shoplifts, despite having the money to pay. I went to college with one of the Masons; they are fine people with an excellent record of community service. Jennifer obviously has many issues with which I hope the Mason family does not want to deal. If all else fails: How do you spell prenuptial agreement?
By LaShelle
May 9, 2005 02:37 PM | Link to this
Damn so she really is a model runaway bride, Julia Roberts would be proud.
By Tim
May 9, 2005 02:49 PM | Link to this
I agree with Bruce!!!!!!!!!
By rocky
May 9, 2005 03:05 PM | Link to this
Okay - Next Topic:
Does it make it okay for a 46 year old man to sleep with dozens of 13 year old boys as long as doesn’t molest them?
By Ben
May 9, 2005 03:07 PM | Link to this
Oh dannnngggggg! I guess I’ll have to go to the strip club to enjoy a beer and a few cigarettes on Saturday afternoons instead of the sports bar. Thanks Sonny!
By Ben
May 9, 2005 03:11 PM | Link to this
Let’s not start on the Thriller himself. It may not be okay, but the PARENTS of these boys are to blame. Yeah, if in fact he is or was doing anything wrong, burn him, bury him, whatever. But the blame falls on the parents. If you were a crack dealer would you leave your supply under the watch of a crack head? If you did, and he smoked it — tough for you buddy.
By RS
May 9, 2005 03:17 PM | Link to this
I agree with Diane except for one thing: Jennifer Wilbanks is NOT at all pretty, which surprises me. The media NEVER makes a fuss over ugly women. Anyway, this gal does NOT deserve help. She’s a spoiled selfish criminal who broke the law on several counts & is as shallow & self-absobed as any toddler. Her fiance is crazy for still wanting her. I just hope they never breed. Scary! She tied up the police dept for days while they could have been solving REAL crimes. She has no concept of the havoc she wreaked. I have no sympathy for her. She needs to apologize to everyone involved including the Latino community, pay back every penny, do weeks of community service searching for REAL missing people & lastly, serve a long term in a mens’ prison locked up with a lot of (Ohhh. GASP HORROR!!) HISPANIC men who’ve had no contact with women in years; that is, IF they can overlook her less-than-appealing face.
By rocky
May 9, 2005 03:24 PM | Link to this
That’s true, Ben. But the crack head can still be arrested for smoking it. Casper the Creepy Ghost should be held responsible for enticing children into his bed, and the parents of these kids should also be held accountable for their terrible judgement if nothing else. The whole thing stinks to high Heaven and he should be put into some kind of a nut house even if he doesn’t go to prison. He wouldn’t last one day behind bars with a bunch of hardened criminals - they’re all WAY too old for him.
By rocky
May 9, 2005 03:27 PM | Link to this
No worries, RS. I’m sure those guys in prison would be looking at the back of her head and not her face.
By lozen
May 9, 2005 03:34 PM | Link to this
Is there something in the water in Gainesville? I know a great story about a woman with two daughters who took money from her daughter’s girl scout troop, she was the treasurer for the troop, apparently just to buy a few things she didn’t want to tell her husband about. She finally ended up taking so much she knew she’d never be able to pay it all back (she has a little part-time job at the library), and confessed to her husband. He borrowed money from a relative to pay back the money she had stolen from the scout troop! Of course, it was supposed to remain a secret but everybody in town knows about it. The funniest part is how people laugh behind her back because she’s one of those people with a real snotty, “I’m better than anybody else” attitude and everybody knows she’s just a common thief!
By THarris
May 9, 2005 03:36 PM | Link to this
I, just like many others, was shocked, shaken, & concerned for the well-being of this woman when she was “missing.” But upon learning that this was a hoax due to her “issues” that just couldn’t seem to share with anyone was lewd. Then to learn that she entangled the hispanic community into her lie made me livid. As a minority myself, my heart went out to the Hispanic community as I know what it’s like to have your race be tainted with negative labels only to justify someones sick, demented fable to make people feel sorry for them. The “apology,” if you want to call it that, to the overall community was ludacris. It was generic and fake. If she was sincere, she would have address each group of people she offended individually, especially the Hispanic community. I say she pays the city back for the wasted money that was spent searching for her; 10 hours for each hour she was “missing” doing community service in the Hispanic community, and FORMAL apology to every person she offended. And next time she’s having “issues,” just leave a note.
By lozen
May 9, 2005 03:38 PM | Link to this
Anybody else have any good gossip about Gainesville? Snellville? Anywhere?
By RS
May 9, 2005 03:47 PM | Link to this
Rocky: HA! ROFLOLMAO! I get it! Boy, I am starting to like you more & more! BTW, Ms. Wilbanks, after her stint in mens’ prison, deserves to be completely alone the rest of her life.
By rocky
May 9, 2005 03:49 PM | Link to this
well, lozen - I heard that DeKalb County has a real criminal idiot for a CEO and that Clayton County has a racist sheriff with a HUGE Napolean complex. I’ve also heard that people in Sandy Springs are tired of being the cash-cow for South Fulton and that they are prepared to vote next month to make their independence from this income redistribution program official. I’ve heard that people in South Fulton are crying racism because suddenly the free ride they’ve had for the last 30+ years is coming to a screetching halt. There’s all kinds of good gossip going on around town!
By Nutty Prince
May 9, 2005 03:50 PM | Link to this
The sooner we get her on Oprah or Larry King the better. I have questions about her personal hygiene and sanitary practices. Imagine a female who had just finished running in the park, taking a cab to the greyhound bus station, with only $140, got on a bus to La Vegas, then to New Mexico for four days without “change of clothes” or any mention of checking into any motel or anything of that sort…. I guess there a lots of questions that have been un-answered. Hopefully Oprah or Larry King will be able to put those across without sounding like aneat freak… You have to feel sorry for the John Mason’s of the world…..I truly think John Mason can do better….. Thats just my $0.02
By rocky
May 9, 2005 03:52 PM | Link to this
That girl scout mother should be ridiculed and forced to sell cookies in front of Walmart until she pays back the amount she “borrowed” from her daughter’s troop. That poor girl must have been MORTIFIED to find out that not only did that happen, but now their family is a laughing stock in their community.
By rocky
May 9, 2005 03:55 PM | Link to this
Jennifer Wilskanks is nasty. Her fiance is naive and in for a lifetime of disappointment and struggle. Unless she does what she should have done to begin with, and STAYS gone.
By Bruce
May 9, 2005 03:58 PM | Link to this
Rocky,
He will not serve one day behind bars. His money will get him out of it and we all know he has almost as much money as God does. It is not the color of the skin it is the color of the money in your wallet that gets people out of trouble.
By jack
May 9, 2005 04:07 PM | Link to this
Careful Rock, you’re not being PC! We are supposed to support the mentioned ELECTED officials. You forgot to mention Fulton Sheriff Freeman, he’s the man. LOL
By LaShelle
May 9, 2005 04:12 PM | Link to this
I’ve got Cobb County gossip!! Our current school board is compiled of the biggest idiots in the south east! :0)
By jack
May 9, 2005 04:19 PM | Link to this
Those laptops in Cobb are going to cost a whole lot more than they say.
By LaShelle
May 9, 2005 04:20 PM | Link to this
I wonder if I could convince them to make the laptop initiative retroactive for about five years, then I could get one too!
By lozen
May 9, 2005 04:25 PM | Link to this
Some people believe Jennifer has Graves Disease, which is an overactive thyroid and often misdiagnosed. They note her bulging eyes, her thick neck, her erratic behavior all of which are symptoms of hyperthyroid disease. I don’t think the shoplifting and lying about being kidnapped are part of the disease though!
By jack
May 9, 2005 04:33 PM | Link to this
I thought she had ‘the spoiled brat” disease.
By lozen
May 9, 2005 04:38 PM | Link to this
Ben, what did purdue do that means you can’t have a beer at the sports bar?
By jack
May 9, 2005 04:47 PM | Link to this
He can have beer, no smokes though.
By Craig
May 9, 2005 05:40 PM | Link to this
It’s really sad to see somebody be as selfish as Wilbanks cause her loved ones so much torment. There are a lot problems with this situation. I myself am a Christian, but I find the hypocrisy of these Christians terrible because it is hurting the name of Jesus Christ! This situation is really nobody’s business though but the family’s of the bride and groom, and also the people that this directly affected. This isn’t worthy of media attention, and it is to bad that it got blown out of proprtion like it did.
By Ben
May 10, 2005 08:02 AM | Link to this
Lozen, He signed that stupid smoking ban so I can’t watch college football at Taco Mac on Saturday afternoons. I just hope Cheetah’s and Mardi Gras have big screens.
By Dave
May 10, 2005 08:08 AM | Link to this
Jennifer Wilbanks used up getting a break during her shoplifting crimes. She needs to pay back the cost of the search to discourage future copycats. She needs community service, mandated psychiatric counseling, and a long probation. At 32 you can’t say I was young and stupid anymore. I hope John Mason gets counseling for what he may be getting into also.
By JMK
May 10, 2005 08:12 AM | Link to this
I find it interesting that a person who lied to and hurt so many people, not to mention turning out to be a shoplifter - not once but 3 times (that she was caught) should bring up God or how Christian people should behave or forgive during her statement read by her pastor. Of all the people to be preaching Christianity.
By rocky
May 10, 2005 08:22 AM | Link to this
She AND her family should have gotten her some help before now, since there were numberous signs that she already had “issues” before this whole fiasco. The fact that they didn’t makes them responsible for this situation, and I’m glad to see she will be made to pay back at least some of the money. I still think she should do jail time as well, since she’s been allowed to elude any punishment for her repeated shoplifting charges in the past.
By norman
May 10, 2005 08:23 AM | Link to this
JMK: good point about Christians and forgiveness. The evangelical idea that all you need for forgiveness is to say you believe in Jesus, without any amendment of your behavior and reparation for the evil you have done — all this is against Christian tradition. The Catholic Church, for all its manifold faults, has a more correct idea of forgiveness depending on repentence and reparation.
But heaven forbid I should defend the Christians of any sort. They are miserable creatures grovelling before a tyrant god.
By rocky
May 10, 2005 08:25 AM | Link to this
I have a question - does the smoking ban apply to parents driving cars with their children inside?
By Lola
May 10, 2005 08:29 AM | Link to this
norman - it must have had you chomping at the bit to see someone write about Christianity! How did I know you’d jump all over that?
I personally think that the idiot to whom this week’s topic is dedicated doesn’t deserve our time and consideration, so I’m not even going to bother writing my opinion of her.
I just heard that Kenny Chesney and Rene Zellwiger got married! I had no idea they were dating! They met in January apparently. She’s from Texas, though. So I’m guessing it’s a good match. I know. Nobody probably gives a rat’s patooty about that, do they? :)
By Randy
May 10, 2005 08:40 AM | Link to this
I saw a special on Sam Walton(founder of Walmart)last night. He did some great things for others as well as start Walmart. He went to Costa Rica and some other latin America countries, took thousands of children there and brought them to the USA and educated them in Christian schools. What a great Christian man.
By Tony
May 10, 2005 08:42 AM | Link to this
A police detective viewer emailed Fox and Friends this morning and claimed that runaway bride Jennifer Willbanks and her fiance John Mason probably planned this stunt all along in hopes that they would get a book deal and a bunch of money. It makes perfect sense to me. At least it’s a hell of a lot easier to believe than the fact that the dude would just give her the diamond back and marry her after she made a complete a*s out of him on national news.
By norman
May 10, 2005 09:06 AM | Link to this
Sam Walton, a great Christian man. Puts countless small shopkeepers out of business, employs people at low wages, ravagages the environment, and dumps lousy Chinese goods on America. Randy sure knows a Christian when he sees one.
By Stephen Baxter
May 10, 2005 09:07 AM | Link to this
I believe in God, and I assume that certain aspects of God’s will, or plan, are immutable because that is a sensible assumption, but I do not delude myself about it: It is only my opinion to the best of my ability. I do not have exclusive knowledge of God’s will, and the Bible is a flawed crazy-quilt patched together from various contributors from over a thousand years ago.
We should always be dubious of anyone who claims to be crystal clear about God’s will in all controversial matters. There is a history of dogma which means that dogma changes from time to time, presumably because change is inevitable. Anyone who wants to defend God’s Will is really stroking his or her own ego. Such people are impostors posing as Gods. They are invoking the name of God in an effort to legitimize their own personal agenda. They assume God will not strenuously object because there is no evidence that “he” ever has.
Godlessness is not common today, but one may be accused of godlessness if one disavows the religions of others. That is the true crisis in spirituality. Most talk about God today is a political power struggle in disguise. Really, there are not many atheists, but many religious folk are fundamentally dishonest.
By Brian
May 10, 2005 09:08 AM | Link to this
If you can’t substantiate a claim that she and her fiance made all of this up, it’s nothing but B.S.
She can’t undo her past, and it sounds like she’s trying to make amends…this overblown story needs to die a quick death, and all you losers need to go get real lives.
By KK
May 10, 2005 09:27 AM | Link to this
She did not ask for the search. That’s what happens when you jump to conclusions. I know those around her knew something as not quite right about her behavior. If it was someone of lesser means. The police department would have waited a few days.
By Monica
May 10, 2005 09:28 AM | Link to this
Dear Ben, I am sorry that you can’t watch college football at Taco Mac anymore. However, it means that I can watch college football at Taco Mac without smelling like cigarette smoke when I get home! :)
By Lola
May 10, 2005 09:38 AM | Link to this
I couldn’t be happier about the smoking ban! If a place wants to cater to smokers, then they should make it an adults-only establishment. There’s nothing worse than walking into a restaurant with my 1 year old daughter and immediately smelling the stench coming from the smoking section. Here’s a clue - if people are smoking inside the building, even if it’s only in a small area in the very back, the WHOLE PLACE is the smoking section and we’re ALL breathing that poison. It’s not a matter of freedom for smokers to do whatever they want. It’s a matter of freedom not to inhale second hand smoke for the majority - the non-smokers. Why should my health be put at risk so you can feed your addiction? And rocky had a good question - does this ban also include parents smoking in their car with their children inside?
By rocky
May 10, 2005 09:40 AM | Link to this
Brian - the ONLY reason she’s trying to make amends is because there has been such an outrage expressed at her for what she’s cost and caused. She obviously has no real remorse and hasn’t learned any lessons. If she didn’t learn a lesson after being arrested THREE TIMES for shoplifting, she certainly isn’t learning a lesson from people like you who apparently want us to feel sorry for her. She’s a loser, a hypocrite and not worthy to talk to anyone about God or forgiveness. She belongs in jail.
By Carla
May 10, 2005 09:47 AM | Link to this
I think Jennifer Wilbanks, should be made to pay for the time and effort those wonderful policeman and volunteers put in the search for her. She should have known better than that. Ms. Wilbanks is not a 20 year old girl. I hope the city of Duluth makes up paid for all that she has done. Nobody should get a away with that scheme. Sincerely, iris
By norman
May 10, 2005 09:53 AM | Link to this
Stephen Baxter: you are right about the dishonesty of Christian believers. The discoveries of history, science, and philosophy reveal that the universe is not the result of design and that therefore there is either no god or a creator god with limited power and insight.
Belief stems from powerful human needs but these needs do not prove god, they only prove a need for him. Those who can overcome this pathetic human weakness can live without a god. The rabble cannot.
The strength or weakness of religion will always be a fairly good guide to the maturity or immaturity of a culture.
By Crystal
May 10, 2005 09:58 AM | Link to this
Well, now that Norman has completed his genuflection before his totem pole, he has lambasted WalMart. Only the best for Norman, of course. Abercrombie & Fitch, Lord ‘n’ Taylor and Joe’s Flea Market on Tybee Island. Maybe Norman, in his boredom, could trash Mother’s Day. But I am so proud. My sons gave me a chain saw. I love it. Nothing worse than a dead limb, unless it is a dead discussion. This week’s W to W is pretty much DOA.
By lozen
May 10, 2005 10:11 AM | Link to this
Stephen Baxter, excellent post. Lola, your’re right, I don’t give a rat’s patooty about Chesney (who is that?) and Zelwiger. But has anybody heard anything about the pastor in North Carolina who kicked nine people out of the church because they don’t like Bush and didn’t vote for him?
By Ben
May 10, 2005 10:11 AM | Link to this
Monica, I’m glad you can take my place at Taco Mac and not smell like smoke — even if it is at the expense of my (once) legal right as an adult. But don’t be too misinformed dear, The law was not passed to save you laundry detergent and fabric softner — it was passed for children under 18 and I can get over that.
And for you health nuts who think my second-hand smoke is going to lead to your demise, I can’t think of a case where someone died of lung cancer after sitting in a bar or restaurant. As a matter of fact, I happen to believe that people are predisposed to cancer; and cigarettes or tobacco just induce the inevitable. To me, that explains why doctors ask is there is a history of cancer in the family. There are people who smoke 3-packs a day for 50 years and die of natural causes.
I have an easier time listening to people whine who don’t like the smell on their clothes than those paranoid health nuts. Your health is no more at risk sitting in a bar than it is walking down the street.
By Sindy
May 10, 2005 10:11 AM | Link to this
The only thing Jennifer Wilbanks did wrong legally was make a false kidnapping statement and for that she should face charges in New Mexico. Here in Georgia she did absolutely nothing illegal. She is a grown adult and had every right to leave of her own free will if she wished. Do I think she made a very selfish and stupid choice? Yes! But, thank God here in America stupid choices are not illegal. Many people are abducted and I do not want to make light, but I do believe this is everyone waiting for another Scott Peterson case. Jennifer did not make her leaving a national story – we did. Again, I believe she needs to face the charges of making a false statement. I believe her conscious should pay a role in paying the money back, but she has no charges or should not have to answer to anyone here in Georgia
By jack
May 10, 2005 10:27 AM | Link to this
Ben, be sure to pay close attention to the game while at the shoe show! I’m busy as a one-armed papaer hanger with the crabs today so this will probably be it for the day. Everyone be nice.
By norman
May 10, 2005 10:29 AM | Link to this
Here goes, Crystal. Mother’s Day and all the other holidays have been invented by capitalists to make you go out and buy, buy, buy.
By Tim
May 10, 2005 10:31 AM | Link to this
lozen… Kenny Chesney is a country music singer… my person favorite is ‘She Thinks My Tractor’s Sexy’… and yes I saw that about the Pastor yesterday… people needed to repent or resign… I sure his mother is also his cousin!… did you hear about the study that showed that gay men reacted to body scents the same way that women do and not the same way as heterosexual men do… getting closer to showing that homosexuality is biological… I think I may try to pull off a white wedding dress :)
Ben… I just hate being around smoke… I don’t take a shower, put on deodorant, brush my teeth, use moutwash, and put on cologne so that I can stink… not to mention my mom is allergic to smoke… her lungs close up if she is around it… so I was never around it as a child… and now if there are a lot of smokers around I cannot even keep my eyes open because they start burning so bad… that is why I don’t want to be around smoke… not worried about the cancer… I just don’t want to stink
By norman
May 10, 2005 10:33 AM | Link to this
Ben: is walking down the street dangerous? Depends where. If it is in one of those delightful African American neighborhoods then it might, according the Jesse Jackson, be dangerous and he would cross the street rather than wait for the brothers to mug him.
The reason white people don’t want to have blacks in their neighborhoods is that the neighborhood can only get worse. Oh yes, I know about those blacks bourgeois who would make wonderful neighbors, but among every black driving up in a Lexus three out of four are probably bourgeois by virtue of being a drug dealer or a pimp, not a heart surgeon.
By norman
May 10, 2005 10:42 AM | Link to this
The Atlanta prosecutor wants the death penalty for Nichols. That is a recipe for disaster like OJ. The probably largely black jury would probably never send a black murderer to the chair. They’ll prefer to let him go so he can continue to terrorize good white citizens of metro Atlanta.
Ben: why doesn’t the DA understand your people?
By Ben
May 10, 2005 10:47 AM | Link to this
Norman, it’s amazing how you can turn walking down the street into a race issue. But for lack of better topics, I’ll bite.
I know a few streets that black men can’t walk on nowadays buddy. It’s just not talked about or shown on the news. The news love to sensationalize crimes by black people because it’s there way of saying, “Look at what those ni——s are doing now — Golly Gee!”
Well I’m glad you don’t want me in your neighborhoods! But just to spite you, I move into them to watch you waste your life living in disgust and complaining about my existence. But here’s an insider tip for you Norman, take is as advice or warning — those bourgeois blacks you speak of are all a part of my aforementioned takeover plan!
By norman
May 10, 2005 10:49 AM | Link to this
Research in Sweden suggests that gay men and straight men are attracted to different sorts of sexual smells. This could help prove that homosexuality is not learned, nor the fault of anyone.
What about reaction to other smells? I must have a racist olfactory gland, because from the age of three I was revolted at the smell of swealty blacks which gave me my determination to defend the white race.
Some Christians smell weird too — the odor of sanctity they call it.
By themecca
May 10, 2005 10:54 AM | Link to this
Norm, you’re such a delight. I love atlanta. I can safely assume every caucasian is either prejudice or a full-blown racist. Peace, love and happiness everyone.
By mel
May 10, 2005 11:02 AM | Link to this
I’ll bite too…Norman, how do you explain the wet dog smell you acquire when out in the rain? I’ve never understood that one…
By Lyrazel
May 10, 2005 11:07 AM | Link to this
That NC church needs to loose its tax-deduction because it has become a political organization. Hope the people kicked out file a complaint with the IRS. Politics belongs in its own arena and it takes a strong congragation to keep it apart from pursuit of holiness.
As for this Jennifer, I am sorry to have wasted my breath. Shouldnt she have gotten that 3 strikes law—mandatory imprisonment like all the others in America are imprisoned 3x for crimes? EVERYONE should go out and shoplift 3 times from the stores she stole from and when facing the judge say: We want Jennifers Law—and when enough people get arrested for felony theft but get off—thanks to Jennifers Law justice will be served. Wonder if the family minister spoke at each trial and then gave large campaign contributions to their elections….Ok…whatever. Justice is blind but will take cash.
I cant say I care about this smoking ban. I think children should be banned from restaurants—other than McDonalds and Chuckie Cheese—then herded into classrooms to become drones incapable of thought beyond the dictates of the Party Test and learn to wave pretty flags and learn to goose step in formation. Only this way will there be enough nursing home attendents ready for when the Boomers retire.
By Lola
May 10, 2005 11:08 AM | Link to this
This week’s topic stinks, that’s for sure.
I actually grew up in a house with a smoker (my mom) and I started smoking at the age of 16. I then quit cold-turkey on October 15, 2002 and never looked back. It IS possible to quit if you want to badly enough. I just figured at the age of 35, it was about time I got serious about my health and that of the people around me. My mother, who also smoked for over 30 years, quit cold-turkey and hasn’t gone back. I never realized how strong the stench of smoke is on people until I quit and regained my own sense of smell. Now I’m mortified to think that’s how I smelled for almost 20 years, and I am thankful that my daughter won’t grow up in a home with that smell to it. My husband and I know a woman who smoked through both her pregnancies, and as a result, her twins (second pregnancy) were born after only 6.5 months in the womb, less than 2 lbs each, and one with substantial breathing problems and vision problems. Yet, even knowing all this, she still has continued to smoke and subjects these children to her death cloud. I guess even the breathing treatments one of her kids had to get for an entire year due to poor lung development and lack of oxygen in the womb from her smoking, wasn’t enough to make her want to quit badly enough to actually do it. I think that’s pathetic and inexcusable. I also think that any parents who smokes in the car with their child or children in there should be prosecuted for child endangerment.
By rocky
May 10, 2005 11:14 AM | Link to this
Lyrazel - that church in NC didn’t do anything that black churches across the country haven’t been doing non-stop. They not only endorse Democrat politicians but they have them come to speak at their churches and encourage the congregation to get out and vote for them! If they can keep their tax-exempt status, then the NC church should be allowed to as well. Same thing goes for the NAACP. They’ve made numerous anti-Bush speeches, passed out anti-Bush propaganda and yet, they are allowed to maintain that tax-exempt status. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.
By Crystal
May 10, 2005 11:16 AM | Link to this
Norman, you didn’t do a good hatchet job on Mother’s Day. Capitalists? Poo. But you’re doing a bang up job on stirring the old racist pot. Why don’t you run up to Charleston and fire on Fort Sumter? Better hurry. Fourth of July is coming and we might ALL remember we are Americans. Well, I think so. You are “legal”. aren’t you Norman?
By Tim
May 10, 2005 11:17 AM | Link to this
mel… I would really like to know the answer to that one too… I am white… but lord help… my bf just has to go outside for five minutes and when he comes back in he smells like a lil puppy… I would love to know what in the world does that… p.s. I don’t smell like that… I think I got some girl genes lol
Lola… good for you! and how sad for those twins… a friend of mine that I work with found out she was pregnant about a month ago… she was a smoker… after she tooks the pregnancy test and it showed she was pregnant she stopped smoking on the spot and has not looked back… and now she has also commented on how she didnt realize how bad it actually smelled until now… I am VERY proud of her for quitting to make sure that she doesnt harm her baby
By Lyrazel
May 10, 2005 11:17 AM | Link to this
Ah but which is more evil? Smokers or the tobacco manufacturers who put substances in cigarettes to make them fast-burning increasing risks of cancer and toxins in the smoke—than would be there if just smoking tobacco? Why cant we ban additives in cigarettes beginning with said manufacturers? Why no law against this—classic omission—ban the public but not the producer…
By norman
May 10, 2005 11:23 AM | Link to this
Rocky: has it ever occurred to you that churches are not about religion at all but social clubs. They are a form of sociability — much like country clubs, only not as toney. They should lose their tax exemption like any other club.
Their only function is social — since the god they worship either does not exist or if he does doesn’t care a fig for their worship services.
By rocky
May 10, 2005 11:27 AM | Link to this
norman - have you had conversations with God? Is that how you know what he does and doesn’t care for? It amazes me how someone who is obviously anti-spiritual can claim to have such a vast knowledge about all things that are spiritual. That’s like a vegetarian owning a butcher shop, isn’t it?
By Monica
May 10, 2005 11:31 AM | Link to this
Smelling bad isn’t the only reason I am glad about the smoking ban. My asthmatic husband can now breathe easier and still eat good-tasting hot wings at the same time.
By Kimberlee
May 10, 2005 11:36 AM | Link to this
Like everyone else I assumed the worse when the Runaway Bride went missing, recently our country has had so many victims of violence, but when the news came that she had planned her cross-country trip I was livid. Not so much that she blamed the crime on a Hispanic male, because this is not the first time a White woman has played the race card when she has committed a crime, anyone remember Susan Smith. I was floored because what she did is the very reason law enforcement does not take is seriously when adults are missing, the standard answer is give is 24 hours, but when someone is missing 24 hours is the difference between life and death. Personally I don’t care what issues Jennifer has, that did not give her the right to work the nation into a frenzy and take away the credibility of people who are actually abducted and need police assistance immediatley
By norman
May 10, 2005 11:55 AM | Link to this
Rocky: there is no such thing as spiritual. Everything is material.
By lozen
May 10, 2005 11:59 AM | Link to this
The way I heard the story is that the N.C. pastor kicked nine people out of the church because they didn’t vote for/like Bush. I haven’t heard of any black church kicking people out because they voted for/like Bush. If I got the wrong info please let me know.
By norman
May 10, 2005 12:09 PM | Link to this
Jennifer Walbanks has checked into a facility for mental and other care. Why has her church not had her exorcized?
By Steve Davidson
May 10, 2005 12:09 PM | Link to this
I think hell has frozen over, because for once I agree with Diane. Sure people make mistakes, but that doesn’t mean they get a free ride. If you stick your finger in a light socket by accident, you still have to pay the doctor bill, accident or not. A woman in Wisconsin faked her own kidnapping, and a judge ordered her to pay resitution and community service. Why should the taxpayers of Duluth foot a $60K bill because of this woman’s whimsy? I can see an argument that she doesn’t deserve jail time, but at a minumum, she needs to reimburse the city.
By Ben
May 10, 2005 12:12 PM | Link to this
Norman, I don’t know why the DA doesn’t understand my people. But I CAN tell you that I could care less about the death penalty or life in prison. When my takeover is complete, I will change justice. It goes like this — all of the terrorists, killers and child molesterers that commit crimes against others, in particular children, will be locked in a room with a bunch of people who really care for an undetermined amount of time. If they make it out, we’ll discuss what happens next.
By Ben
May 10, 2005 12:18 PM | Link to this
And I forgot to mention, nothing is worse than a reformed smoker! Would you take advice from a former crackhead who told you crack was bad. News flash, I don’t smell and I am healthier than MANY non-smokers I know — or maybe I’m healthier because the are affected by my second-hand smoke!!?? I don’t know.
By Lyrazel
May 10, 2005 12:22 PM | Link to this
Rocky, the only difference I see is the fact the black churches do not kick out members of their congragations for opposing political beliefs—as this NC church did. I have no doubt the IRS has already begun its investigation. Republicans and Democrats have so overused the pulpit to spiel their spiel that churches are full of special interest payolla! Church pastors maintain airplanes to commute between GA and Washington….what did your tithing buy? Black church/white church/temple/mosque=greenbacks to politicians. Money talks—especially to god.
By norman
May 10, 2005 12:25 PM | Link to this
Ben: YOU WON’T BE TAKING OVER. You won’t even get them 40 acres and a mule. How about a one-way ticket to Angola? (It’s ex-Portuguese, so they won’t mind that you are not a fullblooded brother).
By Laura Maynard
May 10, 2005 12:35 PM | Link to this
I think this is a story filled with romance, heartache, love, confusion, compassion and a great deal of stupid comments from a lot of people who know nothing about this woman, her fiance’, her family or her circumstances. Anyways if things like this never happened, where would all the good movies and books come from. I am glad Jennifer was not killed. I think her fiance’ is the kind of man all of us would want our daughters to be marrying. And the compassion and love shown by her family and friends and her church is remarkable. I can see another “Steel Magnolias” or “Fried Green Tomatoes” movie coming out of this. Great movies about southern women with all their funny attributes and peculiaraites that bring them together and make you cry and laugh and be angry and happy all at the same time. I sure hope they can get Julia Roberts to play the part of Jennifer, and I hope for everyone there is a happy ending to this story, filled with love and forgiveness and compassion, things we do not have enough of in this world today.
By Ben
May 10, 2005 12:36 PM | Link to this
Norman, I have already taken over as far as I’m concerned. I don’t need 40 acres, I’m happy with the almost 2 I have now. And definitely no need for a mule, my dogs wouldn’t like him very much.
And while you’re at, plan your own one-way trip I’m here to stay — mainly because it bothers you so much that I am here! And the way I see, no one that matters to me cares that I’m not a “full-blooded brother.” As a matter of fact Norman, you seem to be the only person bothered by it - do you feel threatened or insecure in any way buddy?
By rocky
May 10, 2005 12:37 PM | Link to this
You’re right, Lyrazel. It is both black AND white churches who have abused the pulpit for political means. That was pretty much my point. Obviously the pastor at the church in NC was wrong and he should be removed from his post there. I’m just saying that ALL instances of pulpit abuse in the name of politics should be punished and have their tax-exempt status revoked. That should apply to ANY and ALL tax-exempt organizations. We agree completely. I was just trying to make a point that it isn’t just the church in NC that is abusing their status as a “house of God”. And you’re not going to find any dissenting voices in a black church because they ALL vote Democratic (i.e., the power through victimization party). I’d love to see what happened to a black parishner who decided to speak up about how much he/she loves Bush. What do you think the rest of the congregation would do or say? Seriously. I’d love to hear your theory on that (Lyrazel AND lozen).
By rocky
May 10, 2005 12:39 PM | Link to this
Wow, Laura Maynard. What color is the sky in YOUR world? And how can I get my hands on some of those happy pills you’re on?
By rocky
May 10, 2005 12:44 PM | Link to this
norman - there is are a lot of things that are spiritual. You just don’t happen to be one of them. Whether you want to admit it or not, you have faith in your life.
By norman
May 10, 2005 12:45 PM | Link to this
Well, Ben, my olfactory glad is acting up.
By Ben
May 10, 2005 01:01 PM | Link to this
That’s because you’ve had your head up your a** for so long Norman!
By jack
May 10, 2005 01:02 PM | Link to this
Laura, they should make a movie out of the Brian Nichols saga and NOT get Julia (over rated) Roberts to act in it.
By La Una Moore
May 10, 2005 01:03 PM | Link to this
This person should be responsibile for all of her actions. From information I’ve read about her this is not anything new to her. Her actions are very unstable in any situation. She sould pay the city all the expenses incured for her selfishness and inconsideration of others plus interest.
By jack
May 10, 2005 01:04 PM | Link to this
Ben, you’re giving Norm a run for his money. Better than I’ve seen on this blog the few short weeks that I’ve been addicted to it!LOL!
By El
May 10, 2005 01:07 PM | Link to this
WOW!!! I have to agree with Ben. It seems as though Norm may have some insecurities when it comes to blacks. What’s up with all the hatred. In my experience when white people hate me it’s usually because they FEAR me. Hmmmmm. It’s 2005 Norm wake up and smell the coffee…oh guess what it’s BLACK. LOL! In my time here on this planet I have found that there are “people” who are evil, “people” who do foul things. You cannot even classify it as “blacks” or “hispanics” or “whites” because it is everybody. There is nothing that irritates me more than a bigot.
As for the Wilbanks chick, well she gets whatever they give her. She is not cute or attractive and neither is her fiance so I wish they’d quit showing these two ugly a** people on my tv everytime I turn on the news. I don’t care, didn’t care and wish it would just be over.
Oh and Ben, as for the smoking well I am sorry to hear that you indulge in that habit my brotha, but I am not gonna bash you for it you are a grownup. I’m glad they are passing the law, I have a six year old and neither of us wants to smell like stank cigarettes.
By Randy
May 10, 2005 01:09 PM | Link to this
So now Norman thinks that there is no spirituality in the would. Well don’t tell my softball team that, they have won their last 3 games on spirit. Without spirit we would only be robots. Norman you show spirit, it’s misdirected and negative, but it’s there.
By norman
May 10, 2005 01:09 PM | Link to this
Yes, Jack, Ben is clever. But he is a tad vulgar, as one would expect from someone with no purity.
By Ben
May 10, 2005 01:11 PM | Link to this
Thanks Jack, but it’s just Norman. It’s hard to find someone else’s words to back up an opinion as ignorant as his when it comes to this subject. He’s really the ONLY person that agrees with what he says. He would benefit from being quiet on all things NOT religion or the bible.
By LaShelle
May 10, 2005 01:19 PM | Link to this
So she checked herself into the looney bin, lol…how ironic!
By norman
May 10, 2005 01:21 PM | Link to this
Ben: in a truly just society you would be doing what you are suited to do. Aristotle spoke of some people being “natural slaves.”
But having been raised from your appropriate condition you can only make a fool of yourself. It’s a pity.
Randy: Remember man, thou are dust and to dust thou shalt return. Ever heard that?
By jack
May 10, 2005 01:23 PM | Link to this
Wow Randy, thought Norm had run you and Zack off. I didn’t think you had to depend on spirit to win at softball. Evander used it to beat Tyson.
By Ben
May 10, 2005 01:24 PM | Link to this
Hey El, I appreciate the comments. No need to be sorry about my habit man — I chose it knowing the consequences, but I appreciate you not bashing me for it.
Norman, if you think I’m vulgar now, you should here me in person with no editors — it hardly makes me impure!
By Bruce
May 10, 2005 01:28 PM | Link to this
Jack,
I too am enjoying watching Ben put Norman in his place.
By Ben
May 10, 2005 01:28 PM | Link to this
You definitely need to break out the mirror Norman. If anybody is making a fool of themself it is definitely YOU buddy.
I am the farthest thing from your “so-called natural slave.” I am subserviant to no man — nor will I ever be.
By norman
May 10, 2005 01:30 PM | Link to this
Ben: I was referring to the impurity of your blood not your mouth, though I don’t doubt you are verbally vulgar as well. Negroes have a way of spouting vulgarities without control, like they cannot control their sexual urges. You remember Earl Butz’s remark about what blacks want?
By Randy
May 10, 2005 01:35 PM | Link to this
I think dust to dust is in reference to our physical bodies. However, life and spirit have been injected into this “dust”. Or that is what the dust would have remained dust. God put us in a physical body to make a decision, on if we will accept him or reject him. It’s his way of separating the winners and the losers.
By LaShelle
May 10, 2005 01:36 PM | Link to this
Hey norman, tell me this, how many “Negros” do you see on Jerry Sprinnger “spouting vulgarities without control” about sleeping with their uncles or cousins??
By Ben
May 10, 2005 01:37 PM | Link to this
OHHH, my blood is not pure — I thought you were talking about something that actually made sense. What was I thinking?
And Norman, you are wrong again, what comes out of my mouth is definitely controlled and pointed. And my sexual urges are well taken care of and under control. So I guess another one of your stereotypes makes no sense and has no bearing with me.
And I don’t remember Earl’s remark because I don’t know Earl. Well I have a friend and Cleveland named Earl, but I don’t think he commented on what blacks want. Enlighten me!
By JWR
May 10, 2005 01:38 PM | Link to this
Perhaps she violated the law by filing a false report. But she shouldn’t have to pay for the cost of the search. Think about it—the search took place before she filed the false report. And it’s not against Georgia law to take a cross-country bus trip without telling anyone. So, the search was a result of her lawful activity; it was not a result of her unlawful filing of a false report.
FYI—if anyone needs mental help it’s her fiance. His statement to the media that it never crossed his mind to dump her after all this shows that he is mentally unstable.
By Tim
May 10, 2005 01:42 PM | Link to this
LaShelle… hahahahaha… that was GOOD!!! lol
By Lyrazel
May 10, 2005 01:46 PM | Link to this
Laura, Romance? Ive seen more romance at the Varsity at 3am between junkies and whores than in the Wilbanks story. Now, Spoiled Brat—would be hard to beat. Your movie idea has every reason why I loathe being lumped with southern womene portrayed by hollywood. You want to renew the Mammy complex too so black southern women have a role in your movie—maybe Jennifers family has a hispanic gardner comes to work in a truck full of men? Perhaps a clever movie looking into the Southern Judicial System that allows a rich white girl probation for 3 felony shoplifting arrests—wink, wink. For once though, cant a southern woman not be lumped with grits, greens and fatback—not need daddy rescuing them? Besides—where is the shotgun in this southern wedding tale—oh, we leave them to our pagent queens—-which would make a FAR BETTER movie….
Rocky, there are many black republicans who disagree with your judgement and attend Ebeneezer Baptist or New Hope or Black Madonna. See—when lumping groups—theres always a few…Libertarians in the audience too…
Any house of god should be a place of worship—I think should be sacred—and treated as a holy place—not a shrine to government. Its sad, and it opposes many tenants of your Bible, & Testaments and I fail to understand why church leaders treat these holy places as stadiums for politics. Let them rent The Ted—ya know?? Let politicians duel it out with monster truck races and we choose a party leader… by throwing empty beer cans into their truck beds….then we all show up for bbq at the loosers house…..heeheheee
By LaShelle
May 10, 2005 01:49 PM | Link to this
Thx Tim, I just find it so funny that all of a sudden, she’s committing herself. It’s also quite ironic that she’s doing this while they decide if they’ll charge her or not. If they decide to charge her and she’s still there, they can’t touch her, how ironic…
By Tim
May 10, 2005 01:54 PM | Link to this
LaShelle… very true
By LaShelle
May 10, 2005 01:55 PM | Link to this
Oh yeah, and the other thing…it’s true, we don’t see many trailer trash “Negros” sleeping with their daddies or brothers…
By J.D.
May 10, 2005 02:00 PM | Link to this
Put her behind bars for at least a year. Don’t give her Community Service, cuz she’ll be gone again. She definitely needs to pay for the grief she put her family thru and for all the people who searched for her. I have no sympathy for the groom, because he is stupid enough to take her back. What happens if they have children, and she just gets tired of everything and walks away. What happens to the children? Wake up and smell the roses and send her packing. You’re way too good-looking for her anyway.
By LaShelle
May 10, 2005 02:03 PM | Link to this
Gee norm, no smart remark?
By Mara
May 10, 2005 02:03 PM | Link to this
But Randy, as an all-knowing, omnipotent diety, doesn’t he already know who the losers are? I thought he knew all that is, was, or ever shall be. Surely that include the fate and ultimate dispensation of souls…
By norman
May 10, 2005 02:07 PM | Link to this
Earl Butz was Richard Nixon’s Sec. of Agriculture: he commented that what blacks wanted was “tight p….y, loose shoes, and a warm place to p….s.
Yes, wisdom can come even from a Republican and a Mormon.
By Ben
May 10, 2005 02:15 PM | Link to this
Oh I never heard of Butz, Nixon is before my time. But I don’t like loose shoes. And I can’t think of any man who wouldn’t mind two out of the three.
So much for that stereotype and idiotic comment.
By El
May 10, 2005 02:18 PM | Link to this
LOL! Geez Laura what planet are you from and can I get some of those pills too. Romance my a**e! There was nothing romantic about this story. I could just imagine if I (being an African American woman) decided to leave my finace the week of our wedding and run off it probably wouldn’t have even made the local news. LOL. Ben I love the way you are chin checking Norm! He seems to be an ignorant bigot. To even quote anyone from the Nixon camp is truly a sign of IGNORANCE!
By Kathy
May 10, 2005 02:39 PM | Link to this
She has issues???!!! She needs to take a number and stand in line with regard to “having issues”!!! Who doesn’t have some kind of issues?! But we don’t air them out in public, waste tax payers money and have no regard for the feelings of family and loved ones in an effort to deal with them. I say let her sort out her “issues” in jail for about 30 days, I bet that will help her with her “issues”!!!
By mel
May 10, 2005 02:47 PM | Link to this
Rocky, careful with your generalities. I am black and attend a black church. I voted Bush, along with MANY of my family and friends. I don’t think I’d ever vote for antoher one, but that’s another topic.
Tell me this Norm…Why are almost all of the pedophiles, child pornographers, and sexual predators middle-aged white men with wives and children? Talk about uncontrolled sexual urges…
By lozen
May 10, 2005 02:49 PM | Link to this
Yes, Mara, very good question to Randy. But Jehovah does seem quite bi-polar and erratic. If he knew Adam and Eve would eat of the tree of knowledge, why put them near it? He knows everything, right? Oh, Randy will say he did it so they could choose between right and wrong but they didn’t know the difference between right and wrong until they ate the apple! So how could they be punished for eating the apple? If Jehovah set them up, and it sure looks as if he did, how awful. Would any good parent do such a terrible thing to their child? Especially if he would then make that punishment (pain of childbirth for woman and having to work for the man - plus spend eternity in hell) last forever. Well, then he changes his mind and gives the descendents of Adam and Eve an out. If they will just believe that he impregnated a virgin jewish teenager and then her child, god/man/jesus, was crucified and then came back to life they could be saved. But since he knows everything, he knew when he did it that millions of people will never believe that tale - Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, atheists, Native Americans, Africans, Taoists, etc. etc. So all those people again are set up to go to hell! What a nice god!
By LaShelle
May 10, 2005 02:58 PM | Link to this
Ya know lozen, if I didn’t know any better, I’d think you were an atheist.
By AllaboutMe
May 10, 2005 03:05 PM | Link to this
…issues…I have issues….yeah…some dude in Albuquerque is counting his blessings for being an unlisted number….issues…like who gets that jilted groom…I hear he is stud for hire…cheap…but he has his own soup tureen…mommy and daddy sending precious to Peaceful Acres Sanitarium and Spa…no doubt she needs a detox from all those egg salad sandwitches she bought in vending machines from GA to NM…issues…flatulence and constipation issues…
By AllaboutME
May 10, 2005 03:06 PM | Link to this
…or was it the pimento loaf issue….
By Ben
May 10, 2005 03:12 PM | Link to this
No it was caviar and she crab crap.
By Crystal
May 10, 2005 03:13 PM | Link to this
FYI—Norman, as you know, loves to insult one and all on these blogs. Anything for a response. He seems bored and then gets meaner and meaner for fun. From previous forums, it was said that he was once a professor at a California university. PhD? Who knows. Same Norman? Sounds like him.
Anyway, we have here a play ground atmosphere with little boys fighting (and little girls cheering)!Is it possible to incorporate wrestling into these blogs? More good old blood, sweat, tears and religion.
By norman
May 10, 2005 03:15 PM | Link to this
mel: most blacks are the product of incest.
Earl Butz, God love him! He is redeemed by his brilliant observation.
By shala
May 10, 2005 03:17 PM | Link to this
Jack, you have to admit that if this was a black or hispanic “woman”, the publicity would not be worth 2 minutes of airtime. How many minority complaints of abduction has been filed and you saw them on T.V? Or how many minority complaints of being thrown to concrete has been seen on T.V? My point is we’re not just making this up, you see it on T.V. I don’t understand how you can’t see this. For general purposes check with your local police department.
By mel
May 10, 2005 03:22 PM | Link to this
Norman…it was forced on us by men like you who have to get their jollies through perversion. Not to mention sleeping with their black slaves. Again, I ask you to talk some more about uncontrolled sexual urges…
By lozen
May 10, 2005 03:22 PM | Link to this
I say we are all atheists, LaShelle. I just believe in one less god than most people do. If you understand why you don’t believe in Zeus or Apollo or Horus then you will understand why I don’t believe in Jehovah. (Wish I’d thought of this but have to give credit to some other atheist!)
By AllaboutME
May 10, 2005 03:22 PM | Link to this
…I would wressle you any time Crystal…winner gets a soup tureen…no fighting dirty…like comanding higher authority to do somthin to my privates…
By Rusty
May 10, 2005 03:25 PM | Link to this
I agree with the people who wonder why the media spent so much time on this incredibly irrelevant story when there’s so many critically important issues that need to be debated, understood and addressed.
It’s easy to blame “the media” but it’s really not their fault. After all, if people (like you and me) didn’t become mesmerized by this voyueristic tripe, they wouldn’t have the ratings to support the add dollars they so desperately cull from their advertisers. We, not “content”, are the media’s product. They sell “us” to advertisers in the form of ratings. That’s where the bucks are. If there was a demand for relevant, comprehensive information instead of empty voyeuristic distraction, they would provide it - or watch their precious buckaroos vanish like a —— in a tornado.
This story really, honestly, matters to maybe 15 people - the bizarre chick, her dopey fiance, their families, close friends and shrinks and such. Nobody else is going to be personally affected, or should really care too much beyond being glad she turned up okay - whatever the circumstances. Sure, she’s a neurotic twit, but it’s not really anyone’s problem but those 15 people, and there are thousands of more important things to focus on in the world. As far as the repatriation goeas, it’ll probably cost the county more than the $60,000 to “investigate” and file court documents and such to determine if she should or should not pay the money back. 60 G’s is a lot to you and me, but not so much in the grand scheme of county budgets. In my view, even the discussion is wasted time, and time is money, so I think they should just drop it and move on. What’s done is done. Better that the cops and county officials are doing their jobs rather than sitting for inane depostions and such.
This story was worth about an hour of coverage, aggregate, and that was when she was missing and the coverage might’ve helped if there had been foul play. Yet here we are, a week later, still picking apart every little detail. (And the fact that rich white folk would garner more media attention than poor black, hispanic or anything else is a given in our society - hardly a hot topic for a substantive “debate.”)
As long as we fool ourselves that stories like this are worthy of our comprehensive, long-term attention and the formulation of personal opinion, we’re going to miss the multitudes of really critical issues that have a much greater impact on all of our lives, and we’ll have nobody to blame for it except our own (media-suckered) selves.
By Mara
May 10, 2005 03:29 PM | Link to this
Why thank you, lozen. Yeah, the omnipotence thing is a big hang-up for the “Loving Father” scenario of Christianity. After all, he made me the way he made me. Shall I be punished for being courious, or skeptical, or puzzled, or even (gasp!) dubious? How could he not know that I’d be a free thinker, suspicious of those who told me what to do as they said, not as they did? After all, he created me this way. So how could a loving father condemn a soul to eternal damnation for the horrific sin of eatin shellfish, deficating in city limits, or wearing a cotton/linen blend? Makes no sense. Maybe “He” is schizo -
Consider, you then also have the “Vengeful God” the “Jealous God”, the “Stern Lawgiver”, and the “Good Shepherd”. I roll ‘em all into one and just call ‘im the “Big Ol’ Spankin’ Daddy”. And the Devil is his hickory switch. What a mistake that creation was…oh, yeah. He’s omnipotent, he doesn’t make mistakes.
By mel
May 10, 2005 03:35 PM | Link to this
Shala…some people will never see what you’re saying, but it is the result of white skin priviledge. That’s why me going back and forth with Norman (even though it’s fun) serves no purpose. I can make a counterpoint to everything he says about minorities, but whatever I say about white people will be discounted. Why? Because people like Norman believe that the crime or offense is softened when the offender is white. And they also refuse to see that most of America thinks this way.
By LaShelle
May 10, 2005 03:36 PM | Link to this
Lozen, I am nowhere near being an atheist, thanks for the offer though. :o)
By norman
May 10, 2005 03:37 PM | Link to this
Mara: a medieval Spanish king, Alfonso the some number or other, said that had he been present at the creation he would have done a better job!
By AllaboutME
May 10, 2005 03:38 PM | Link to this
…randy…blame all this on Ted Kennedy and the liberal media…blame tv news for making their broadcast women dress like sofa cushions…all zebra stripe and lime green….lighten up…this kind of crap comes so often in georgia…you must have issues….
By lozen
May 10, 2005 03:43 PM | Link to this
You are most welcome LaShelle ;-)
By Lyrazel
May 10, 2005 03:43 PM | Link to this
Just talked to my mother on the phone. She said, if I would have done such a prank she would not have come looking and would have sold all my gifts. Thanks mom.
By Crystal
May 10, 2005 03:43 PM | Link to this
Dear AllaboutME,
Thanks for the invitation to “wressle”. But I already have a soup tureen (and a chain saw). Maybe next time.
By AllaboutME
May 10, 2005 03:47 PM | Link to this
…ooooooo a chain saw….woman you rule….hope it doesnt have a sissy electric starter….
By LaShelle
May 10, 2005 03:47 PM | Link to this
Lol@Lyrazel…my friend’s dad said that he once had a wedding fund for her but when she turned 30, he put it all towards her college tuition debt becuase he thought if she wasn’t married by then she never would be. lol
By Lee
May 10, 2005 03:52 PM | Link to this
I think that a black woman is the exact same situation would have garnered the exact same media coverage. A bride, with a large wedding planned, disappears within days before the wedding. Her family, and friends plead with the media. Oh yes, the news people would be all over it, no matter what race the bride was; hispanic, black, vietnamese, italian, or pakistani.
This case was wildly over-reported, and the next case probably won’t be, because of the result. “what, it was only a bride with cold feet??? ho-hum. glad she’s safe!”
That being said, she cannot be held responsible for the search that was driven by her family and friends. Perhaps for filing a false police report, but the truth was known hours later. So, maybe they can penalize her with 6 hours of community service.
None of us truly know what was going through her mind when she bought the ticket, and ran away. I probably won’t be satisfied with this story until that is known. I won’t lose any sleep over it, though. And the media should be covering real news, with a 20 second blurb whenever the bride makes a statement.
By norman
May 10, 2005 03:52 PM | Link to this
In the world today there are about 1 billion “pagan” Chinese and 850 million Hindus in India. And their percentage of the world population continues to grow, as does their prosperity and GNP. The Chinese make terrible prospects for Christian missionaries because they are so Confucian, which is a combination of materialistic and traditional, — making conversion to Christianity doubtful. Those Chinese who have in the past converted have done so for rice and other material advantages. They can now forget about needing Christian money. The Indian Hindus are the opposite but just as impervious to the charms of the Gospel: they are ultra religious and Hinduism is a polytheistic cornucopeia of gods, goddesses and beliefs.
Christianity will survive but not grow — except among the backward Africans and Hispanics. It is doomed even in Kansas!
Islam will survive better than Christianity since it is more authentic in the lives of people of West Asian and Central Asian culture, as well as Southeast Asian in Indonesia.
Some day people will wonder why Christianity made such a fuss and lasted so short a time. Let them wonder. We know, don’t we.
By lozen
May 10, 2005 03:57 PM | Link to this
Most whites will never, ever admit the privileges they’ve had/and have just because they’re white. If they did, they couldn’t yell and scream about reverse discrimination and how we should get rid of affirmative action, could they?
By Lyrazel
May 10, 2005 04:02 PM | Link to this
LaShelle, never be late with your mothers day cards….lol…I got a set of sheets and towels for my wedding. We were happy to get that…his mother…bless her… gave socks for gifts—his size. Its not the gift its the love of being remembered…I think when children are raised getting everything they want except guidance…you have more Jennifers…than Akeyas…Who raises children to take responsibility for their actions any more? Its teachers fault, societies fault, always somebody else fault—give them a Ridilin…..a test and make them all nursing home attendents…which, sadly is now all the career this Jennifer is going to have….
By LaShelle
May 10, 2005 04:08 PM | Link to this
You’re exactly right Lyrazel…for mother’s day I got pilates equipment from my mom and a ‘you’re not really a mother’ from a former crackhead who doesn’t have custody of her own children, lol, and all I can think is thank God for that much! Now they try to find any excuse to put kids on meds, ADD, ADHD, whatever happened to children being children and just having ‘child-like energy and spirit?!’ I wish someone would tell me my child had some kind of attention deficit, that would be the day I started home-shooling, or working another job and hiring a private teacher/tutor.
By LaShelle
May 10, 2005 04:10 PM | Link to this
Lozen, the thing that would hurt them the most is that they would have to admit that they’ve been wrong for all this time…couldn’t do that now could you, norm?
By Crystal
May 10, 2005 04:13 PM | Link to this
OK, Norman, time for religion. I’m one of “those” Christians. No need to deny it. I like it. “Love thy neighbor” and all that really good stuff. Even better than that. Works for me.
And the ten commandments? Follow them and you will stay out of trouble. Could I order a few stone tablets for you, Norman?
By lozen
May 10, 2005 04:22 PM | Link to this
Some theologian said, “You have to know what metaphor is to understand the bible. “If I say, ‘I have a frog in my throat,’ and you think I actually mean I have a living green creature in my throat, you are not understanding what I’m saying to you.” Randy, do you know what metaphor is?
By JWR
May 10, 2005 04:23 PM | Link to this
Mara and lozen—To answer your questions: no, you won’t be punished in hell for being curious, you’ll be punished in hell because you’ve violated God’s moral laws and your conscience confirms this. (Unless, of course, God grants you spiritual life and you repent and turn to Christ in faith). Just because God knows everything you have ever done and ever will do doesn’t mean that you aren’t responsible for them.
Your posts are perfect examples of what Paul is saying in the first chapter of Romans (in the bible). People don’t reject the true and living God because of a lack of evidence. Anyone with half a brain: (1) can figure out by looking at this universe that it must have been made by someone: and (2) can investigate the claims of Christianity (for example, the resurrection) and discover that they are genuine. But nobody does this on their own. Why? Because people reject God, not for intellectual reasons, but because they don’t want anyone telling them that what they are doing is wrong. They don’t like hearing that they will have to give an account for their actions when they die.
“People suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them… So they are without excuse… Professing to be wise, they became fools… They did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God.” Here’s the irony: Romans 1 also says that God displays his wrath on this earth by allowing people to do whatever they want to do—He gives them over to their sinful desires. On the other hand, the recipients of God’s grace are those who have their desires changed so that they love what they formerly hated (God) and they no longer want what they formerly loved (to sin against God).
By lozen
May 10, 2005 04:34 PM | Link to this
Crystal, which set of stone tablets would you order? The first ones that were broken when Moses got mad at the Hebrews (god’s chosen people!) for worshipping golden idols (made from the jewelry they stole from the Egyptians?) Moses really had to give them hell before they gave up their pagan gods! Or the second set written by Jehovah’s finger after 80-year-old Moses carried the stone tablet up to the top of the mountain? Which decalogue in the bible would you choose? There are at least two versions both mixed in with thousands of nitpicking rules and regs about what to eat, what to wear, blah, blah, blah. Do christians ever actually read the bible? It sure doesn’t sound like it.
By norman
May 10, 2005 04:38 PM | Link to this
JWR: don’t quote Paul to us. Paul invented Christianity out of whole cloth and it had nothing to do with the real disciples of Jesus. To quote Paul is to show you are a fool, taken in by his mystification and fraud.
By lozen
May 10, 2005 04:46 PM | Link to this
I was just reading something last night about how hard it was even for the disciples to understand Jesus’ parables at the time he (supposedly) spoke them. And we think we understand them now? You would think that if the big J’s words were so important he would have made them easier to understand esp. since eternity in heaven or hell for every human who’s ever lived (so christians claim) depends on understanding the word of god! What a nice god! ;-)
If you were god and wanted every living being to hear your word, why would you choose the hebrews (a rag tag bunch of wandering nomads until they killed all those other men from other tribes and stole their land and their virgins)to carry your word to people who live in the 21st centurey and watch Jennifer Wilbanks on television? The whole story is a juvenile fairytale that superstitious people in 1200 could believe. I don’t believe it’s a fairytale because I don’t want to be judged for what I’ve done either! I would happily be judged by what I’ve done and not done in my life. I am a moral, sensitive, compassionate person. JWR, you seem to believe like many christians that people can’t be moral unless they follow your religion. That just is not true.
By Crystal
May 10, 2005 04:48 PM | Link to this
Lozen, I would order the ones they set up in the court house, the light weight model. Like I said, a good set of rules. Keep you out of trouble.
But they are only rules. Christianity is faith. I can’t order that. You have to find it yourself.
By jack
May 10, 2005 04:50 PM | Link to this
Why are you playing the race card Lozen? it really doesn’t become you. Like I said earlier, in this town it’s all about black vs. white. Get over it. I haven’t heard Ben play the card and for that I give him credit.
By lozen
May 10, 2005 04:53 PM | Link to this
JTR or whatever, you say anybody can figure out by looking at this universe that it must have been made by someone: and (2) can investigate the claims of Christianity (for example, the resurrection) and discover that they are genuine. Man, did you finish grammar school?
By jack
May 10, 2005 04:53 PM | Link to this
Us white folks are just soooo lucky to be born white. Give me a break.
By mel
May 10, 2005 04:56 PM | Link to this
And there it is! Tee race card! I knew someone would say it sooner or later. Have you ever considered that your race card is claiming that blacks are playing it when they are, in fact, telling the truth? Should we call it a “reverse race card”?
By JWR
May 10, 2005 04:59 PM | Link to this
Norman: I’ll let you in on a little secret—“The DaVinci Code” is not true (neither is the garbage that comes out of the Jesus Seminar). Also, your post again proves the truthfulness of the Bible. You don’t like someone telling you that you’re going to be punished for your sins, so you suppress what you know is true. The good news is that on the cross, Jesus took the punishment upon himself that should have come to his people. Repent and believe. Otherwise, you’ll have to endure justice and “fairness” in hell—an unimaginable terror.
By lozen
May 10, 2005 05:06 PM | Link to this
Jack, why are you playing the deaf, dumb and blind card? It doesn’t become you! How could you possibly think, considering our history, that it wouldn’t be about white vs. black? As Ben said, white people had their foot on black necks until about 40 years ago. I was 20 then and I remember what it was like.
By Randy
May 11, 2005 07:13 AM | Link to this
JWR, I think Norman is Jewish, so good luck in telling him the truth. You and I know the truth, but if Norman ever accepted Jesus as his lord and savior, his whole being would be over(or at least he thinks so). He wouldn’t have anything to talk about on this forum. As far as Iozen, evil has her ego wrapped up. She must have had a life-changing humiliting moment at some time and can’t get over it. So she is full of pride and ego. Not a good place to be.
By norman
May 11, 2005 07:20 AM | Link to this
JWR and Randy: my biblical interpretations are not based on the Da Vinci Code, which I have already said is junk, nor on the Jesus Seminar, which has good and bad points to it, but on 400 years of excellent biblical scholarship, from Spinoza to the latest work by Robert Eisenman, John Meier, and others. The Jesus of the churches has little to do with the real Jesus. Paul invented an imaginary Jesus to his own liking and needs and this is the Jesus which has been preachedc for 1950 years. This is the Jesus who saves and all that sh…t. The real Jesus is a dead Jewish messianist and apocalyptic who died realizing God did not intervene as he had expected. All the religiosity about Jesus is nonsense and no amount of Christian pandering will make it relevant.
This has been known for a long time by educated people — resulting in the obvious conclusion that anyone who believes what the churches teach is either a fool or a knave, probably both. That applies to you two as well.
By jack
May 11, 2005 08:23 AM | Link to this
I awoke this morning feeling so lucky that I was born white. How lucky I am. Everything I have wasn’t do to hard work, it was because i was lucky enough to be born white. Right Lozen? Don’t you feel lucky everyday? Look at Norman. he has everything he ever wanted because he was lucky enough to be born of the white race. We are so special.
By Ben
May 11, 2005 08:28 AM | Link to this
I’m glad to see that some of you are listening! lol. Just to reiterate one point — there is no such thing as REVERSE racism or discrimination.
And you’re right, Ben does not play the race card because he took it out of the deck and inserted the intelligence, hard-working, and knowledge cards instead.
I have no doubt in my mind that their are racist people out there that discriminate, but everything in our beautiful society boils down to money. Even the most racist person is not going to deny your skills and abilities if it’s going to make him a buck. Aside from letting me earn a living and take care of my family, I could care less about someone’s personal opinion or dislikes are about me.
By Lola
May 11, 2005 08:36 AM | Link to this
Ben - you are an incredible man with a fantastic head on your shoulders. I’m so glad you’ve joined our blog! :)
By Ben
May 11, 2005 08:49 AM | Link to this
Thanks Lola, I do what I can!
By norman
May 11, 2005 08:53 AM | Link to this
Ben: you believe in economic man, that is the primacy of money. The history of the 20th century shows that people can be persuaded to fight vs. their real material interests in favor of ideological positions (of which racism is one). In other words, despite all the praise of you on this blog you are an uneducated dolt.
By shala
May 11, 2005 08:55 AM | Link to this
Ben and Norman and all of you non-believers, where is the big write up on the managers that got fired? Why isn’t it plastered all over the news? Is this not a big deal? Is it because we don’t believe the media want to write anything bad about certain “group” of people?
By Lyrazel
May 11, 2005 08:56 AM | Link to this
LaShelle, drugs are used for crowd control in public and private schools now. Its mainly because children are seldom allowed to play-scream-run around like children. No recess, no art, no place to vent out that bundled up energy. It comes from wanting to birth androids, perfect darlings who never act up, always study and never behave like children. Americans dependence on perscription drugs— is a culture where—got a problem take a pill fixes are more common than dealing with a wild kid with more energy than the geysers at Yellowstone. The problem with pushing pharmaceuticals on children is the fact not even psychiatrists, doctors can tell you the consequences of medicating children on drugs never tested on developing minds. So all those kids on mood-disorder pills are guenia pigs for the industry. Small wonder we have Columbines and Red Lake incidents. We will only know the consequences when the Zoloft generation comes to adulthood. Pharmaceutical companies want a nation of dependents on their drugs—and Americans are standing in line to swallow the pill spiel pushing children into a medicated life at three—because they are unruly after 12 hours in daycare. Human intervention is worth a pound of pills—but Americans are not getting involved anymore—we have forgotten how to be a group society and that ego-indiviualism of I-Me-Mine prevents social awareness.
It kind of makes me wonder what Jennifers pill-load was when she could not cope. I have no doubt she was on something prescribed. The biggest pushers in America are pharmaceutical companies—and they just got BILLIONS back in a tax deal that lets them keep overseas profits wiithout being taxed on them! Wow! Talk about a windfall at the expense of American taxpayers!
By Crystal
May 11, 2005 08:57 AM | Link to this
Well, Norman, your conclusions about fools & knaves in the Christian church are wrong. Have you been in one lately? Our church has two ministers, both with Doctor of Divinity degrees (earned, not honorary). Our discussion class has three members who are college professors. (Are college professors usually fools & knaves?) We are not a BIG church. We may have some members who might be fools & knaves but we don’t apply labels. Love is there for all. Drop by anytime you are in Atlanta.
By Ben
May 11, 2005 09:09 AM | Link to this
Hey thanks Norman. I don’t think I’ve ever been call a dolt before - much less an uneducated one. But from my understanding of those two words, you seem to be redundant my friend. If redundancy isn’t your problem them you are just plain WRONG.
I am very far from stupid. Undeducated, maybe in some eyes because I don’t have a college degree. But I don’t think a college degree is an indication of real education. But my education was refined at the University of USMC. I graduated after 11 years. During those 11 years I obtained more knowledge than anyone with a MA, BA, PhD or whatever.
The only ideological position I fight for is the notion that it is my job to take care of my family, make sure there is a roof over our head, food on our table, clothes on our back and that my daughter is raised in a happy, productive, loving environment. Other than that Norman, I can’t be persuaded to fight for anything.
It’s not about the praise Norman, people just know good sense when they see it — you just seem to be the exception.
By norman
May 11, 2005 09:12 AM | Link to this
Crystal: I’ll bet those so-called scholars in your church have degrees from some Baptist diploma mill, not a real university.
But even if they have Harvard degrees, there are always people smart enought to get degrees but too cowardly to live courageously with the truth.
By Ben
May 11, 2005 09:14 AM | Link to this
If you’re talking about Lockeed, I don’t know where the write-up is. But don’t expect it to be big news~!
By Ben
May 11, 2005 09:16 AM | Link to this
And Shala, what is it that I don’t believe?
By rocky
May 11, 2005 09:28 AM | Link to this
The pastor of the church in NC that voted out the Democrats has resigned, as he should have. Now let’s see how long it takes the preachers at all the black churches who continue to preach politics, to do the same thing and step down, rather than subject their churches to IRS investigations into violations of the tax-exemption laws. I can already tell you how many of them will - ZERO. Instead, all you will hear is cries of racism and how they’re being singled out because they’re black.
By LaShelle
May 11, 2005 09:28 AM | Link to this
Lyrazel-Then they wonder why our children are all of a sudden obese. Because we want them to sit in a classroom all day, no activity, everything served for lunch is fried, and if you show an ounce of energy you’ve got ADD/ADHD and need a pill. But the pharmaceutical companies are happy so that’s all that matters, right?
By LaShelle
May 11, 2005 09:32 AM | Link to this
Rocky, Politics have become a part of some churches. And while I don’t agree with that I have yet to see a black church tell their Republican members they can no longer attend the church because of their political views.
By Lola
May 11, 2005 09:34 AM | Link to this
norman - you said yesterday that there is no spirituality and only materialism. But spirituality to me indicates a faith of some kind, and whether you want to admit it or not, you do exhibit faith of your own in every day of your life. When you get in your car, you have faith that you’ll arrive where you’re going, faith that the other drivers around you will observe the laws and not crash into you. Have you ever been on a plane? Then you had faith that the pilot would safely get you to your destination. Have you ever bought something at the grocery store that was in a package where you weren’t able to see the actual product until you opened it? Then you had faith that the item was going to be as advertised when you paid for it. You see, norman? Even you are a spiritual person who has faith. It just absolutely irritates you to admit that so I’m sure you’ll counter my argument with some reason as to why I’m wrong. But I know (and you know, and everyone else here knows) that I’m right.
By norman
May 11, 2005 09:34 AM | Link to this
la shelle: black children are so overenergized that no pill will take care of their ADHD. That is why they need to be handcuffed. Ben must have been handcuffed when taken to church because he is certainly possessed.
By rocky
May 11, 2005 09:36 AM | Link to this
You’re right, LaShelle. And that is why I said they should resign to spare their congregation and their church the IRS investigation, not because they voted anyone out. My point is that churches are NOT places where politics should be relevant, and ANY pastor or preacher who violates that should be removed from their post. Period.
By lozen
May 11, 2005 09:38 AM | Link to this
Randy thinks I’m evil and filled with pride and ego! Why thank you Randy; that’s really something coming from someone with your discerning intellect!
By jack
May 11, 2005 09:41 AM | Link to this
Ben, Lola’s post about you at 8:36am is right on. I appreciate hard work and brains and you have both. Keep up the good work.
By LaShelle
May 11, 2005 09:43 AM | Link to this
Rocky, I’m sure that there would be quite a few white preachers missing as well.
By LaShelle
May 11, 2005 09:46 AM | Link to this
As for you norman, our children are obviously filled with a better type of energy than yours. I’m still waiting for some black children to shoot up their school.
By Archie
May 11, 2005 09:54 AM | Link to this
The history of the 20th century shows that people can be persuaded to fight vs. their real material interests in favor of ideological positions.
Norman,that is a true statement and I will elaborate later on.
By Ben
May 11, 2005 09:54 AM | Link to this
LMAO! Norman, I’ve only been handcuffed a couple of times and that was for pleasure. I haven’t been to “church” as you see it in a long time. I’ve already said, my family is my church.
By Crystal
May 11, 2005 09:54 AM | Link to this
Let’s see, Norman. Not a Baptist in the crowd. More like graduates of Valparaiso, Emory and other universities I am not sure about. Doesn’t matter. They don’t quibble about the truth. They live it. Most of us try in one way or another, don’t we, Norman?
By rocky
May 11, 2005 10:00 AM | Link to this
LaShelle - I agree. Any any white, black, yellow, red, green, purple or whatever pastor of a church who abuses his pulpit by using it to make a political speech or statement SHOULD be made to leave. It is a violation of his job and not his place to decide which side is the right side. So if there were quite a few white preachers missing as well, that’s fine by me.
Using a pulpit to preach politics to a captive audience is as wrong as a teacher using the classroom as an indoctrination pool to create a generation of America haters and tree-hugging idiots who have no idea what it’s like in the real world. Neither do teachers and professors, which is probably one of the reasons they are so opposed to capitalism. Put these people out into the REAL world where tenure doesn’t exist, and they AREN’T guaranteed a job for life, and they would be singing a different tune.
By jack
May 11, 2005 10:07 AM | Link to this
Any Church who uses the pulpit to endorse a particular candidate should immediately have their tax exempt status taken away.
By lozen
May 11, 2005 10:08 AM | Link to this
Jack, it’s not about waking up being thankful you’re white every day! I look back at my 62 years of life and I see clearly the advantages I had and my parents had that black people of our generations didn’t have. It’s a fact of history; I’m not making this up. How can people forget that a little over 40 years ago black people could not exercise their legal right to vote in the south until they marched in the streets to force this country to protect that right? I know my parents had jobs that would never have been given to a black person in our small georgia town. There was one black person in the company where they worked, the janitor of course. Black women of my mother’s generation mostly worked as maids taking care of some white woman’s house and children! That was about the only job they could get in the south (maybe the north too; I wasn’t there). When I started college there were no black people in my classes. If you were black you went to a black college. I have had jobs no black person would have been hired for, no matter how qualified they might be. I’ve lived whereever I wanted without having to worry about people burning a cross or something on my lawn. Maybe you’re under 40 and don’t remember what I’m talking about?
By norman
May 11, 2005 10:09 AM | Link to this
Rocky: what about those Catholic bishops who told their flock not to vote for Kerry?
What about Archbishop Innitzer of Vienna who told his flock to vote for union with Nazi Germany in 1938?
By rocky
May 11, 2005 10:10 AM | Link to this
and for the record, my Uncle is a retired university professor who is the EXACT type of stereotype I just pointed out. He has never been in the real world and has instead been surrounded only by people who have never been there either, and their view of the world and reality is so screwed up and based in la la land, it’s hard to believe sometimes.
By lozen
May 11, 2005 10:15 AM | Link to this
Everyone here knows I am not an organized religion type. But I don’t know how a pastor can separate her religious beliefs from her politics. A pastor’s job is to teach morality is it not? So if you see a government throwing it’s poor and helpless to the wolves while helping it’s wealthy supporters grow richer, how can you not preach about that? I’m talking about real morality here, the morality of being your brother’s keeper, caring for the poor and the ill, helping those who aren’t as well off as we are, loving thy neighbor!
By rocky
May 11, 2005 10:15 AM | Link to this
actually, norman - the Catholic bishops told their flock that someone can’t be a practicing Catholic and still support abortion, which is what Kerry was doing. I don’t recall ever hearing anything about them actually saying that thier congregation shouldn’t vote for him.
As for the Archbishop, what they did in Italy in 1938 isn’t any of my business. I’m referring strictly to US churches who enjoy the benefits of tax-exemption, which then strictly forbids them from using the pulpit as a political forum.
By jack
May 11, 2005 10:31 AM | Link to this
Lozen, I am over 40 (unfortunately) and am quite ashamed of the way black people were treated in the south. I was born in Philadelphia and blacks were treated equal up there. It wasn’t until I moved here and witnessed 1st hand how they were treated as second class citizens.I have respect for people of any color who manages to do good in life. My boss is black, my boss’es boss is black, and my bosses bosses boss is black. Like Ben, they didn’t make excuses, they worked hard to get where they are. The man upstairs determines where/how we are born. Luck has nothing to do with it.
By rocky
May 11, 2005 10:41 AM | Link to this
It is a pastor’s DUTY to separate their religious beliefs from their political, or at least to leave it out of their Sunday sermon. The role of government is to protect us militarily against attack from outside forces. Nowhere in the constitution does it say that we are supposed to have income redistribution from those who work and have made wise decisions for their futhre to be given to those who have made bad decisions with absolutely no thought toward the future. Nobody is “thrown to the wolves”. Poverty is something that you can get yourself out of or put yourself into. It’s not everyone else’s job to pay for your mistakes. I’m not wealthy by any stretch of the imagination, but I don’t have the resentment and hatred that a lot of minorities seem to have for people with more money than they have. I don’t believe we should penalize the productive citizens of this country in order to reward the unproductive, and I certainly don’t think it’s a pastor’s job to encourage that kind of program. If people want to give their OWN money to help the poor and downtrodden, then they are free to do so. It’s not the job of the government to force anyone to do that. But they do. It amazes me how no matter how much money is spent on giving a free ride to millions of poor, uneducated and unambitious people, it’s never enough. There are PLENTY of programs and billions in taxpayer money that is used for income redistribution already. I don’t go to church to hear my pastor preaching about how we should give more and more and more. By the time I get my paycheck, I’ve given MORE than enough already. My net is incredibly gross.
By rocky
May 11, 2005 10:42 AM | Link to this
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/walterwilliams/ww20050511.shtml
This is a column by Walter Williams that goes along the lines of my last post. Very good reading and not lengthy at all.
By lozen
May 11, 2005 10:51 AM | Link to this
I have seen throwing people to the wolves with my own eyes. A relative is totally disabled with arthritis and has been for years. Five years ago she had visiting nurses twice a week, aides to give her baths three times a week and other help that she no longer has due to cuts in government programs. She cannot bath herself, stand on her feet long enough to cook for herself, she is in almost constant pain. Now she has no visiting nurses and no baths. This woman is not disabled because she made bad decisions in her life!
By norman
May 11, 2005 10:57 AM | Link to this
Iozen: God just sh…..ts on some people. Get used to it.
By rocky
May 11, 2005 11:06 AM | Link to this
lozen - Then why isn’t she living with you or another member of your family? Surely there is room in your home or the home of a relative for her, where she can be cared for and have the support of family around her. It would certainly prevent her from having to stand up to cook for herself, would provide her with a way to get the bathing she needs. Why is it the job of every other tax payer in America to provide care for her, when her own family is alive and well and should be able to help? I’m sorry for your relative and the pain she endures, but there are millions of stories like hers and the majority of those people could get at least some relief if their families were willing to make the necessary sacrifices for them, rather than expecting everyone else to. I have my own family to worry about, and believe me. If my mother and/or father wound up in the condition of your relative, we would find a way to get them under our roof and make their lives better. I just don’t think it’s right to force every other American to pay for that.
By jack
May 11, 2005 11:10 AM | Link to this
Thats what family is for. Not the govt.
By jack
May 11, 2005 11:17 AM | Link to this
Norman, your post at 10:57 unfortunately is very true. Happens every day. We are told to believe that the reason behind it is to make us stronger. It may make us stronger, but I don’t think that’s the reason.
By Lola
May 11, 2005 11:40 AM | Link to this
jack and norman - you really shouldn’t blame God for things that go wrong. He gave us free will and created us, but I don’t think he personally makes things happen or not happen to some people and not others. Circumstances may sh*t on you, but God doesn’t.
By lozen
May 11, 2005 11:41 AM | Link to this
This particular relative is very lucky because she does have a daughter who has taken up the slack! She also has a son but nobody expects him to care for his mother. Her daughter does bathe her and provide her with food every day. She takes her to her several doctor appts. each month and picks up her medications for her. She takes her anywhere she has to go which means taking off from her full-time job while caring for her own daughter who is under six. She had to leave one lucrative job to take care of her mother when she had surgery. The sick woman does not want to live with anyone; she prefers to keep some of her independence although it costs her daughter. But I’m sure they do better not living together. Don’t take any of my money to care for sick or disabled people in the wealthiest country in the world with the highest standard of living? This is amazing to me. I don’t like to pay taxes but I’d rather pay to care for people than to provide our government officials with freebies and body guards. I’d rather pay to care for people than contribute to a defense budget 300 percent higher than any other country. I guess it’s all a matter of where our hearts are, if we have one.
By lozen
May 11, 2005 11:46 AM | Link to this
Lola do you thank god when things go right for you? If so, why shouldn’t you blame god when things don’t go so good?
By kimberly
May 11, 2005 11:48 AM | Link to this
Better to have a bleeding heart than none at all! {;-> I agree.
By Boscoe
May 11, 2005 11:52 AM | Link to this
Actually it is Jack. God sent His own Son to die on the Cross for the sins of the world. To pay the price for the sin of the world. Why should we be any different? Haven’t you experienced something bad in your life that, should it repeat itself, you would be able to handle better than you did the first time? Enduring tough situations strengthens your character.
By rocky
May 11, 2005 11:52 AM | Link to this
Not to sound callous about it, but I don’t think your relative really has much of a SAY whether or not she goes to live with someone. When you are completely dependent upon others for your well-being, your right to keep your independence goes out the window, ESPECIALLY if it is requiring her daughter to not only take care of her, but had to give up a lucritive job to do so. I’m sorry, but I think that is incredibly selfish of her and I feel sorry for her daughter. Her son should be ashamed for not stepping up, whether people expect him to or not.
While I may live in the wealthiest country, I certainly am NOT one of the wealthiest and I work hard every day to earn money for my own family’s survival. This woman has two adult children, and they should be responsible enough to help her. Sounds like her daughter is going above and beyond this, even with a small child of her own. And this woman needs to lose her illusions of independence. When you can’t bathe yourself anymore, you’re officially not independent.
I have a MAJOR problem with my money going towards freebies and bodyguards as well. That is not what I work hard to pay for. I will gladly pay for our military, though. Our defense budget is 300 times larger because our we are THE world superpower and we are currently engaged in a war. You liberals seem to conveniently forget that fact when you’re whining about our military spending. It’s not free to go to another country and liberate 50 million people from tyranny, but it is a worthy cause and I will support that any day.
By Vickie Warren
May 11, 2005 11:53 AM | Link to this
5 year old black girl handcuffed for irrational behavior, SHAMEFUL. 32 year old white woman committed hate crime by accusing another nationality of kidnapping/raping her, cost taxpapers money for police search, committed a felony by filing false police report,lied to family/friends, fiance main suspect,escorted through the airport without handcuffs, PRICELESS. The family wanted the media in the beginning and in the end don’t want the media attention at all. Looking at her police record makes me wonder what kind of jobs has she had with these shoplifting convictions. It’s just amazing how law enforcement/media will go all out when a white, female is missing regardless of the income bracket. Yes Jennifer my dear the race card was surely played in your favor from the deck up.
By norman
May 11, 2005 11:54 AM | Link to this
lola: I was using the word God in a figurative sense. I don’t think God really does all this since I don’t think there is a God. It’s just bad luck. But bad luck does not seem to get distributed evenly.
If there were a God, the evil done cannot be ascribed to our free will; it is in some sense his doing, or he is not so powerful, or both. The ancients understood this quite well but the effect of Christianity over 2000 years has been to weaken the brain of Christians and those forced to live with them.
By Boscoe
May 11, 2005 11:56 AM | Link to this
Why be responsible for yourself at all, right lozen? If things go bad clearly it’s not our fault, so why should we take responsibility?
By jack
May 11, 2005 12:02 PM | Link to this
Boscoe its hard to see why God saw fit to take the life of those 2 little girls in Illinois. Who was made stronger, the mother? They need to take that man and shove something minimum 4ft long where the sun don’t shine and wait for him to die.
By Boscoe
May 11, 2005 12:04 PM | Link to this
Norman, why would “evil” have to exist to prove God does? Collectively, the root cause to evil is the free will of the one who does the evil. The evil act isn’t done until someone has made the decision to do it. Choosing to do so is the use of one’s Free will.
By lozen
May 11, 2005 12:07 PM | Link to this
Boscoe, go suck a damn egg, you religious nut!
By Boscoe
May 11, 2005 12:08 PM | Link to this
Jack, with a father like that do you think those two children were likely to be raised with the knowledge of God? Perhaps the reason God saw fit to take them was becuase otherwise they might not have lived a life worthy of heaven. Thus, God took them now before it was to late. I agree with you on what should happen to the father.
By Vincent
May 11, 2005 12:10 PM | Link to this
No American lives in the real world. Both the democrats and the republicans don’t live in the real world. The majority of rich people do not live in the real world. A friend of mine, whose father is an international lawyer and whose mother owns a large furniture chain, wrecked his car. It was his fault. The next day, an identical version was parked in the drive-way. That’s on a micro scale. What about the people like Paris Hilton, who honestly has never worked hard in her life, who is worth 350 million dollars? Or her boyfriend that is a billionaire (22 years old.) because his family discovered oil. Yeah, he has worked hard. Or another friend that had his parents buy him a brand new car because he didn’t like the one that he had got when he was 16.
By norman
May 11, 2005 12:10 PM | Link to this
Boscoe: what about evil that happens through no one’s fault?
You are giving us the usual crap of Muscular Christianity. You sound like that evil pope, Pius X who was a peasant and loved to persecute Catholics with even the slightest deviation in their belief. Of course he was made a saint!
Saints are not people you would like to meet. St. Simon Stylites sat on top of a column for thirty years and denounced heretics.
By Boscoe
May 11, 2005 12:10 PM | Link to this
Lozen, that was a well thought out reasonable response. You hang with Norman to much.
By norman
May 11, 2005 12:12 PM | Link to this
Boscoe’s answer: “What do I care if it rains or freezes, long as I’ve got my plastic Jesus.”
By Ben
May 11, 2005 12:15 PM | Link to this
Boscoe, how ignorant do you sound saying he took the children now because they wouldn’t have lived a life worthy of heaven. Maybe he should have taken the father who has lived a longer life to PROVE that he was not worthy of heaven. And just so you know God did not take the two girls, the guy who killed them took them.
By Boscoe
May 11, 2005 12:16 PM | Link to this
Norman, give me an example of an evil that is no one’s fault?
By Boscoer
May 11, 2005 12:22 PM | Link to this
Ben, do you know how ignorant you sound to suppose that you know the will of God?
By norman
May 11, 2005 12:22 PM | Link to this
Iozen: don’t be mean to Boscoe. His answer is the exact one you would have gotten from a priest up until recently; perhaps many priests would still give this answer. They have to make God always look good, so there has to be a good reason for those who are given bad things.
Boscoe: what about someone who is killed by lightening? A father supporting a wife and seven Catholic children.
By lozen
May 11, 2005 12:23 PM | Link to this
You’re right Boscoe. I sent that impulsively and I could have done much better than that! I could have said, you are the one who takes no responsibility for yourself because all you can ever say is, god, god, god. God wants, god says, god doesn’t want, the bible says, the bible says. You are so brainwashed you aren’t capable of thinking for yourself about anything. Jehovah created the devil and then couldn’t control him so the devil has more power than god and leads us all into evil! Right. Even in your mythology, God didn’t give us free will Boscoe. Adam and Eve ate the apple and that’s what gave us free will. If they hadn’t eaten the apple we wouldn’t even know the difference between good and evil now would we? We would all be mindless little children with no conscience and with no concept of right and wrong.
By norman
May 11, 2005 12:24 PM | Link to this
If MacCauley Culkin were gay would that dismiss his evidence concerning Michael Jackson?
By lozen
May 11, 2005 12:28 PM | Link to this
That’s a good one. You telling Ben he sounds ignorant about supposing he knows the will of god? Ha!
By Brian2
May 11, 2005 12:30 PM | Link to this
This notion of “current” white privlege resulting from the historical exploitation of blacks begs the question: Would I, an adult white man in 2005, be better or worse off if blacks had never been forcibly brought to this country? If the heinous crime of slavery had never happened here, then the percentage of African Americans in this country would most likely be limited to the current insignificant number of immigrants from African and Carribean countries. Consider all of the industrial and technological innovations that have happened that now make our lives better. Would those things still have happened? I suggest that they would have and that my life, admittedly insular, would most likely be the same, and probably better if our forefathers had not embraced slavery. I am not trying to deny the injustice to blacks in this country or to denigrate those that have as much history here as I do, but I reject the notion that my life is better simply because I am white.
By Michael
May 11, 2005 12:31 PM | Link to this
Iozen, I cannot stop laughing at you telling Boscoe to go and suck a damn egg. That is the funniest thing that I have heard today. HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!
By Boscoe
May 11, 2005 12:32 PM | Link to this
Norman, are you serious? Since when is lightning evil? Lozen, thank you for helping me prove my point. Eve, wasn’t forced to eat the “apple”. The decision was hers and hers alone. And now that we do know the difference, there should be no excuses.
By jack
May 11, 2005 12:33 PM | Link to this
Vincent, if that last post was directed at me, one of the benefits of working hard and being sucessful is to make life easier for your children. I noticed you did not site one example of privileged black children. There are a few of them you know.
By Alex
May 11, 2005 12:35 PM | Link to this
Brian2, lozen is just some nagry women who hates everybody.
By norman
May 11, 2005 12:35 PM | Link to this
lightening can kill, can’t it Boscoe? Don’t be dense.
By Ben
May 11, 2005 12:38 PM | Link to this
Boscoe, I will answer your post by asking you to read yours. PERHAPS you are dillusional. I only know the will of Ben buddy.
By lozen
May 11, 2005 12:40 PM | Link to this
In the folktale you believe to be truth Boscoe, Eve ate the apple before she had any knowledge of good and evil. That knowledge came after she ate the apple! How can she (and all the rest of humanity) be blamed for doing that? It would be like setting a box of candy in front of a two year old and saying, “Now you must not eat that candy or you will be punished,” and then walking away. Now that would be a wise and good parent would it not?
By lozen
May 11, 2005 12:42 PM | Link to this
What the hell is a nagry woman? I’m hungry and you people are getting on my last nerve!
By jack
May 11, 2005 01:08 PM | Link to this
Lozen, better get something to eat or you’ll get nagrier!
By Rochelle
May 11, 2005 01:08 PM | Link to this
I don’t think this lady should be charged. First of all she didn’t call anyone to say, “hey, form a seek team to see if you can find me”. Hello!, whenever someone is assumed missing or there is suspected foul play the Police, with what they have trained to do are suppose to get involved (tax dollars paid for this). The question of the emphasis and efforts placed on this case and this type of search, the decisions are normally based from those in charge, not the persumed victim. People are missing everyday, we don’t normally hear about the massive searches as this one. Why, because there not any, the decisions are not made to do so (the influences). Besides, it not like Jennifer asked to be search for in such a fashion. However, the political favors or the strings pulled to carry this type of search out, really turned out to be eggs in everyone faces.
Jennifer realizing the big deal being made back home, lied only then to be accepted back home. I think she actually did her boy friend a favor. He really know what type of idiot he dealing with now, as if he didn’t. Besides from be hurt, he has to ask himself, is this what I really want in life. I don’t think Jennifer should be charged! I think whoever made those decisions for such an ellaborate search, should be investigated—was the search excessive? How does the Police actions in Jennifer’s case compare to other actions taken by the Police in other missing cases?
By Boscoe
May 11, 2005 01:09 PM | Link to this
Norman, lightning strikes the earth about every ten seconds. Are you telling me all lightning is evil? Lozen, before Eve had knowledge from the “apple” she was NOT a child. A two year old is not at the age of reason. God told Eve NOT to eat the apple but she did anyway. She used her free will.
By Bruce
May 11, 2005 01:09 PM | Link to this
It is amazing to me how folks are so proud of not being religious and then throw scripture at you when you disagree with them. God does not, and never has, want mindless puppets to be in a relationship with him any more than you would want your spouse to be forced to be in a relationship with you. He gives you the Free Will to choose to be in a relationship with Him or with Satan. If you would only seek that relationshp with Him he will take away all your doubts and fears and walk with you daily.
God does not make bad things happen to good people such as these two children. But he does allow bad things to happen. Do I know why, no I dont’ but I do know that there will be some good to come from it. You may not see it or even hear about it but it will happen.
By kimberly
May 11, 2005 01:10 PM | Link to this
Okay, I’m not saying that Eve WAS framed, but I will note that the possibility she was framed is really not discussed. I mean, were there any witnesses? And whose side of the story was written down? Did they have pens and paper? Why is it always the woman’s fault? Why was she out walking alone anyway? Where was Adam? Was he being a d*head? Watching the game? Refusing to engage her in conversation? Why was she so available to the serpent anyway? Wasn’t her MAN supposed to protect her? I mean, it COULD be. I’m not sayin’ anything, but I’m just sayin’.
By lozen
May 11, 2005 01:15 PM | Link to this
Yeah, Kimberly. Jehovah comes up to see what’s going on with the fig leaves and Adam says, “The woman did it. The woman did it.” How do we know he was telling the truth?
Okay Boscoe, so exactly how old was Eve when she ate the apple?
By norman
May 11, 2005 01:18 PM | Link to this
KIMBERLEY:Don’t try to make sense out of the crazy Bible. No sane person takes it seriously, except as an example of a literature which maintains a primitive state of mind. Those who waste their time on the Bible deserve what they get.
By mel
May 11, 2005 01:20 PM | Link to this
For the record Jack and everybody else, when I mentioned white skin priviledge, I was not saying that white people have a better life by virtue of being white. I’m aware that any person can do well in life if they work hard and perservere. People like Ben, or my husband, who are black men that work hard to support their families are different from than those who are lazy, who live off of their women, and then complain the fovernment and the “MAN”. But when all other things are equal, white skin does give one an advantage. That’s just the way it is. White people will get the benefit of the doubt when a black person won’t.
And white people have a card to play as well. My husband, who’s 26, was manager at his coompany. There was a 44 year old white man directly over him. They both applied for the same job, a managerial positiion at another account. The other guy would come in late and leave early almost every day. He would call out sick a lot. He would dump a lot of his responsiblities on my husband. I advised him to do it and take up the slack, which he balked at but did anyway. And my husband got the promotion. The white guy played the “Affitmative Action” card and actually had meetings about this. My husband worked his a*s off to get that job, and still works his a*s off, but there are white people in the company who still believe he got there because he’s black. White skin gives one the priviledge of being shifless and lazy, but not acknowledged as such.
By lozen
May 11, 2005 01:22 PM | Link to this
In the jewish creation folk tale, Eve and Adam were like two year old children since they were created with no knowledge of right and wrong! And they didn’t know right from wrong until after they ate the stupid apple!
By mel
May 11, 2005 01:23 PM | Link to this
And acutally, nothing happened to eitehr of them until Adam ate the apple. The responsibility was on Adam, and he screwed up. that’s why they were punished.
By Boscoe
May 11, 2005 01:28 PM | Link to this
Lozen, God created man and woman, not boy and girl.
By Jack
May 11, 2005 01:29 PM | Link to this
Rochelle, all she had to do was leave a note.
By Archie
May 11, 2005 01:35 PM | Link to this
I wish we could get away from the racial insults. Lozen, you are a rarity as a black-woman-atheist. That is unusual and I don’t mean it as an insult since so many people insult. For the christians folk you have to admit the atheist people make some points. I mean some people only blame Adam for sin because “Adam was in charge”. The Bible specifically says “the husband shall rule over the wife” as part of the punishment for Eve not following instructions. In other words Eve was not under Adam’s authority until she ate that fruit. Most christians just ignore that and blame Adam which is why I say atheists make some good points. As christians if we don’t like it we don’t follow it or somehow justify a way around it.
By Jack
May 11, 2005 01:36 PM | Link to this
You mean I can be shiftless and lazy? Cool.
By Whiley
May 11, 2005 01:38 PM | Link to this
I would like to say one thing: Isn’t it ironic that the first time Adam got the chance, he laid the blame on a woman.”
By rocky
May 11, 2005 01:38 PM | Link to this
lozen - please go eat something before you kill someone.
Boscoe - good posts, buddy. i find it hilarious to hear atheists talk about what the bible means and what God is about.
kimberly - I reluctantly admit that I’m beginning to like your posts more and more. Your last one was awesome!
By Jack
May 11, 2005 01:41 PM | Link to this
You know what the first thing Adam said to Eve?
Better stand back, I don’t know how big this things going to get!
By rocky
May 11, 2005 01:42 PM | Link to this
Jack - ROFLMAO!!!!!!
By mel
May 11, 2005 01:44 PM | Link to this
Jack, yes you can, but nobody will call you on it. See how it works?
We can agree to disagree on it.
So did you hear that the dad who killed those little girls once chased his neighbors with a chainsaw? I wonder what his deal is.
By norman
May 11, 2005 01:45 PM | Link to this
Rocky: how do you know about the Bible? You have never taken a history of religions course at a respetable, secular university. You only know what your bigoted clergy has told you about the Bible. They have a vested interest in keeping you ignorant of its true nature. Keep ‘em dumb and obedient.
Boscoe reminds me of Tertullian: I believe because it is impossible.
By Tony
May 11, 2005 01:45 PM | Link to this
I may speak in tongues of men or of angels, but if I am without love, I am a sounding gong or a clanging cymbal. I may have the gift of prophecy, and know every hidden truth; I may have faith strong enough to move mountains; but if I have no love, I am nothing. I may dole out all I possess, or even give my body to be burnt, but if I have no love, I am none the better.
Love is patient; love is kind and envies no one. Love is never boastful, nor conceited, nor rude; never selfish, not quick to take offense. Love keeps no score of wrongs; does not gloat over other men’s sins, but delights in the truth. There is nothing love cannot face; there is no limit to its faith, its hope, and its endurance.
The Bible, 1st Book Of Corinthians
By Ben
May 11, 2005 02:10 PM | Link to this
Who says Christians have the authority on what the bible is about and what God is about. Sounds to me like both are interpreted to suit your needs as necessary.
Actually, the funny thing is that some Christians (mainly Catholics) are so convinced their beliefs are the only “true” beliefs and that all others a destined for hell.
By lozen
May 11, 2005 02:17 PM | Link to this
Boscoe, how did those hebrew women give birth to men?
And the king of Egypt spake to the Hebrew midwives, of which the name of the one was Shiphrah, and the name of the other Puah: [16] And he said, When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, and see them upon the stools; if it be a son, then ye shall kill him: but if it be a daughter, then she shall live. [17] But the midwives feared God, and did not as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the men children alive. [18] And the king of Egypt called for the midwives, and said unto them, Why have ye done this thing, and have saved the men children alive?
By Ben
May 11, 2005 02:17 PM | Link to this
I can tell you what his deal is Mel — did you see his picture. That dude is CRAZY!
By Bruce
May 11, 2005 02:20 PM | Link to this
I do not know if what I believe is THE ONLY TRUE belief or not. That is yet to be determined. But I do know that what I believe is much better than not believing at all.
By Ben
May 11, 2005 02:23 PM | Link to this
So you doubt the God that you show so much allegiance too? That’s a strong show of faith. I would just rather not believe at all.
By rocky
May 11, 2005 02:28 PM | Link to this
Um, norman? I READ the bible. That’s how I know about it. And I don’t recall ever giving you the history of what classes I have taken in my lifetime, so unless you’re just THAT clever (which we all know you’re not), you once again need to close your mouth and pull your head out of your a**.
What was it that lozen said? Go suck a damn egg.
By kimberly
May 11, 2005 02:28 PM | Link to this
What Tony said cited… Whatever you believe or don’t believe, it doesn’t mean much without LOVE in your heart.
By Bruce
May 11, 2005 02:29 PM | Link to this
No, I do not doubt God, I doubt that I am interuppting His word correctly. My relationship with God is real and personal. He reveils His word to me as I am mature enough to handle it. Since I am a sinner saved by grace it is my imperfections that make me a slow learner not God.
By Yalanda
May 11, 2005 02:30 PM | Link to this
I do not think Jennifer Wilbanks should have to repay anything. As in the Janet Jackson nipple gate, I think the first television station to rush to sensational reporting because “only cute white girls get the big headlines” should be responsible for the cost, her medical treatment, and any restitution she made have for implicating a Hispanic assailant.
On another note, since Wilbanks acted out like Julia Roberts by cutting her hair and escaping via Greyhound, I still wonder if she is “Sleeping with the Enemy.”
By Ben
May 11, 2005 02:35 PM | Link to this
So it is possible that others may not be interpreting his word correctly as well, correct?
By lozen
May 11, 2005 02:38 PM | Link to this
Okay, I had lunch. Jack, as usual you are funny as you can be and lighten things up. I’m not as nagry as I was before lunch. The comments about people throwing scripture when they aren’t religious are funny! It is because I read, reread, studied, all the bible (not just the pretty parts that all preachers choose to talk about) that I am an atheist! Archie, I’m not black, at least as far as I know. There are an awful lot of disconnects and disappearing ancestors on both sides of my family! I learned a lot when I was a tour guide for Atlanta Preservation on Auburn Avenue. I have studied African American History and US History, and I know many hard working, good hearted, intelligent, wonderful people of color. Just as I have known plenty of lazy, good for nothing, trailer trash white people. I know the color of one’s skin is no indication of what kind of person anyone is. “I have a dream that one day all little children will be judged on their character and not the color of their skin.”
By Bruce
May 11, 2005 02:43 PM | Link to this
That would depend on THEIR relationship with God. I cannot/will not answer for them as I will not answer for you. God instructs me to tell others what He has done in my live to help me deal with the ups and downs of everyday living. He has never told me to tell anyone what He has done for you or anyone else. That is why it is a PERSONAL relationship. I know what His word says and means to ME.
By mel
May 11, 2005 02:46 PM | Link to this
Lozen, have you ever met any lazy, good for nothing white people who weren’t trailer trash? Because if you say you haven’t, you helped me make my case to Jack.
Ben, yeah he looks crazy alright!
I have to wonder if the black church isn’t partly responsible for the mentality of some of my people. Think about it…Jesus will fix it! Wait on God! Let go and let God! Nowhere in there do you hear about personal responsibility. I’m a Christian and I know that God will answer our prayers and that Jesus can fix it, but I don’t believe God wants any of us to sit around and wait on Him to drop things out of the sky. Even I can admit that God’s word has been so twisted and distorted that it’s barely even close to Jesus’ original teachings.
By Ben
May 11, 2005 02:50 PM | Link to this
That makes sense Bruce.
By lozen
May 11, 2005 02:50 PM | Link to this
The God Asclepius speaks to me! You know, Socrates’ last words were, “Crito, we should offer a c**k to Asclepius. See to it and don’t forget.”
By lozen
May 11, 2005 02:53 PM | Link to this
Hey Michael! Hey Whiley! Glad you’re here.
By lozen
May 11, 2005 02:56 PM | Link to this
Socrates meant a rooster, you silly AJC censors! I think…???
By Bruce
May 11, 2005 02:57 PM | Link to this
When you read, reread and studied did you also pray and meditate on what you read, reread and studied, asking for an understanding? That’s what I had to do before I could even begin to understand.
By Michael
May 11, 2005 02:58 PM | Link to this
Another example of legacy media running with a story that they failed to check out properly. The media continues to run with it even now. How big of a story is a runaway? Would the search have gone nationwide without the publicity hounds in the media? Just follow the money.
By Jack
May 11, 2005 02:59 PM | Link to this
Mel, I work with white shiftless, lazy people who are not trailer trash. They just happen to be shiftless & lazy.
By Tony
May 11, 2005 03:16 PM | Link to this
To believe is to know that every day is a new beginning. It is to trust that miracles happen, and dreams really do come true. To believe is to see angels dancing among the clouds, To know the wonder of a stardust sky and the wisdom of the man in the moon. To believe is to know the value of a nurturing heart, The innocence of a child’s eyes and the beauty of an aging hand, for it is through their teachings we learn to love. To believe is to find the strength and courage that lies within us. When it is time to pick up the pieces and begin again. To believe is to know we are not alone, That life is a gift and this is our time to cherish it. To believe is to know that wonderful surprises are just waiting to happen, And all our hopes and dreams are within reach. If only we believe.
Author Unknown But Greatly Appreciated!
By Jack
May 11, 2005 03:24 PM | Link to this
Beautiful post Tony!
By lozen
May 11, 2005 03:25 PM | Link to this
*[19] Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
If christians really followed Jesus’ teaching, they’d all be on welfare before long!
By LaShelle
May 11, 2005 03:32 PM | Link to this
Mel, my grandfather, a pastor for many years told me the following story: There was a horrible storm and the local city was flooding quickly. A very religious, and stubborn, man decided to stay where he was and not seek higher ground saying “God will save me.” As the flooding continued, a neighbor rowed by offering to save the man, he said “no because God will save me.” A helicopter soon came by as the water was rising faster and faster by the minute but the man once again refused help saying “God will save me.” Eventually the help stopped coming and the man drowned. When he got to heaven the man said to God, “God, I waited and waited, I thought you would save me” God said to him, ” I sent a boat, a helicopter, and a raft, what did you think that was?” In other words, I agree with you.
By Whiley
May 11, 2005 03:34 PM | Link to this
Hey lozen ! KIND-of back, really busy lately.
OK, should run away bride be held legally accountable? Only if Terri Nichols & the thousands of criminals this year have to pay up also. Don’t the real criminals cost us much more than run away bride did????
Otherwise, what the H!@#! are you people talking about? You are ready to castrate this woman ! Shame, Shame, Shame There are much better candidates to throw your wrath at than at her.
The ONLY thing she should be charged with is false report of a crime, & HELLO nobody spends time in jail for that. Maybe a fine & probation.
Should she give a formal apology to Hispanics? NO WAY ! If she is forced to, then I demand a written apology from everyone that has told/forwarded a blonde joke.
By LaShelle
May 11, 2005 03:35 PM | Link to this
Lozen, that’s your opinion.
By Norman
May 11, 2005 03:36 PM | Link to this
Ben: the Baptists are worse than the Catholics. The Baptists think that they will be in heaven with no one else.
By norman
May 11, 2005 03:37 PM | Link to this
Rocky: you’ve told the truth. You read the bible and that’s all you know about it. That is the ultimate expression of redneck christianity.
By kimberly
May 11, 2005 03:38 PM | Link to this
Okay, okay. So I AM sometimes shiftless and lazy. It’s BURNOUT, I tell you! Doing the SAME thing, day after day, sitting in a little BOX, staring at a smaller BOX until my eyes feel like two fried oysters….
Note to self: do NOT watch Office Space on Sunday afternoons anymore….
By Tony
May 11, 2005 03:38 PM | Link to this
Lozen
I hope you still feel small when you stand beside the ocean, Whenever one door closes I hope one more opens, Promise me that you’ll give faith a fighting chance, And when you get the choice to sit it out or dance…
I hope you dance…
From the song “I Hope You Dance” As performed by Lee Ann Womack
By mel
May 11, 2005 03:44 PM | Link to this
Lashelle, thank you!
LMAO at Kimberly. That’s one of my favorite movies. Maybe you’d feel better if you had your peices of flair!
By norman
May 11, 2005 03:45 PM | Link to this
The movie Kingdom of Heaven was not only historically valid and well acted, it also depicted the Christian clergy as the most loathsome of the evil doers. Go for it!
By LaShelle
May 11, 2005 03:47 PM | Link to this
LOL…I was watching that this Sunday too Kimberly and have seriously been thinking about adopting that attitude at my job!
By norman
May 11, 2005 03:53 PM | Link to this
That plane which ovestepped airspace in DC today, I was hoping it was part of a regime change in Washington. But it turned out to be some evangelicals dropping leaflet telling Bush that God wants him to continue being the SOB he is.
By rocky
May 11, 2005 04:01 PM | Link to this
norman - I said that’s HOW I know the bible. Not that it’s ALL I know of the bible. You need to listen better and quit trying to fill in the blanks with your own misguided assumptions.
kimberly - Office Space is one of the GREATEST movies of all time! Anyone who has EVER worked in an office or cubicle environment needs to see it. I’ve worked with someone just like pretty much everyone in that movie at one time or another.
By rocky
May 11, 2005 04:03 PM | Link to this
The people spoke last November, norm. We decided to keep the current “regime” for another four years because he’s doing a fantastic job, in SPITE of morons like you being a part of our country.
By Chris
May 11, 2005 04:07 PM | Link to this
This woman should be severely punished. By her family. By her fiance. By the courts. She should be jailed, she should be fined, she should do community service. And now it’s revealed that she’s a klepto who’s been busted 3 times for shoplifting. A real catch this one… But we all know in this day and age she made the best career move she could have made. She’ll write a book, do the talk show circuit, maybe even pose for playboy. What a disgrace. The good folks in Georgia should run her out of the state. Just please don’t send her to mine
By LaShelle
May 11, 2005 04:09 PM | Link to this
Rocky, the economy is falling quickly, gas is over $2 a gallon, and we’re spending over $200 billion on the war that never should have been, yeah he’s doing a GREAT job.
By Tim
May 11, 2005 04:13 PM | Link to this
actually Rocky you are in the minority right now if you think BUSHYCAKES is doing a ‘fantastic’ job… people may actually be beginning to see the light… oh glory glory glory hahaha
By ed
May 11, 2005 04:14 PM | Link to this
Stop calling her the the “Runaway Bride”. She is just our home grown village nut case. She has a crimminal record and needs to pay the public back for every penney spent looking for her sorry rear end. The so called treatment center is just to allow her to lay low until the media attention goes away. DA, Sheriff?? Is anybody home?What are you waiting for?
By Tim
May 11, 2005 04:14 PM | Link to this
oh and did anyone see the pic with him holding pics with the Saudi prince… what’s all that about??? I mean I know the two families have been in bed together for years… but I had no idea they were that close (wink wink)
By kimberly
May 11, 2005 04:17 PM | Link to this
I was asked to stop wearing my pieces of flair to work. Not everyone was cheered by the BUSH S*CKS and GOT FASCISM? buttons. Still, “Dang, it feels good to be a gansta!” {;->
By LaShelle
May 11, 2005 04:19 PM | Link to this
ROFL@Kimberly
By Tim
May 11, 2005 04:19 PM | Link to this
sorry… should be ‘holding hands’ not ‘holding pics’ lol
By mel
May 11, 2005 04:20 PM | Link to this
LMAO!!! But seriously Kimberly, one question. Are you related to Micheal Bolton?
By rocky
May 11, 2005 04:29 PM | Link to this
Your feelings about Bush are irrelevant. The MAJORITY spoke here in our country, and he is serving his well-deserved second term. You can hate him all you want. Spend ALL your energy on it, as a matter of fact. Doesn’t matter. He’s here to stay for the next four years and that’s a fact. Deal with it. Get over it and find a better leftist socialist candidate in 2008 than the douche traitor you had in 2004 - someone who you think could actually WIN.
I think it’s wonderful that he’s man enough to hold hands with the Saudi. Not all countries have the same standards of what is considered correct, and in their country, holding hands with a friend is not a big deal.
Bush is one of, if not the best, president this country has ever had, and we should all be on our knees thanking him for ensuring our continued freedom.
By Lincoln
May 11, 2005 04:31 PM | Link to this
This woman should be severely punished. By her family. By her fiance. By the courts. She should be jailed, she should be fined, she should do community service. And now it’s revealed that she’s a klepto who’s been busted 3 times for shoplifting. A real catch this one… But we all know in this day and age she made the best career move she could have made. She’ll write a book, do the talk show circuit, maybe even pose for playboy. What a disgrace. The good folks in Georgia should run her out of the state. Just please don’t send her to mine
By LaShelle
May 11, 2005 04:32 PM | Link to this
OH HELL NAH!! YOU CAN NOT BE SERIOUS ROCKY!! Actually, Bushy-boy might be good for me! Oh wait, I’m a black woman that is not in the top income bracket so he doesn’t give a DAMN about me, I almost forgot.
By Tim
May 11, 2005 04:33 PM | Link to this
sorry but Bush is not the type of guy I usually ‘get on my knees’ for… so I think I will pass on that one Rocky… but you have fun with that
By Whiley
May 11, 2005 04:35 PM | Link to this
“This woman should be severely punished. By her family. By her fiance. By the courts. She should be jailed, she should be fined, she should do community service. And now it’s revealed that she’s a klepto who’s been busted 3 times for shoplifting. “
OK then, if she is to be punished this severely, what do you propose for the rapists, robbers, drug dealers, misc. perverts, car jackers & murderers that were arrested this month??
By kimberly
May 11, 2005 04:36 PM | Link to this
Rock, Dude… I appreciate a man who’s loyal.. but regarding Bush, he’s EVIL. E-V-I-L! This I know. Not saying there were any particularly impressive alternatives last year, but still, E-V-I-L rules today. No one WANTS to believe it; that’s why so many are in denial. But the truth will be known one day. Sticking fingers in my ears now. La la la la la!
By norman
May 11, 2005 04:46 PM | Link to this
Rocky: the same fascists who voted for Bush are the ones who read the bible. We know who you are and we shall proceed against you. Insane asylums should be the first place to send Christians and Republicans. Mark my word!
By norman
May 11, 2005 04:48 PM | Link to this
Evidently our Christers are split about Bush. That is good. Divide and conquer. We shall have separate insane asylums for Christians and Republicans. Segregation has always been a good idea.
By norman
May 11, 2005 04:53 PM | Link to this
If it is ok for us to work for regime change elsewhere, it must be equally ok for those of us here who want local regime change to ask for foreign help. I hereby ask the French nation to assist us in effecting regime change in Washington. All means are possible, even legal ones.
Lafayette, aidez-nous!
By lozen
May 11, 2005 04:54 PM | Link to this
I’m not sure the majority spoke in November, Rock. Could be you’re right. Could be voting machines were tinkered with by the Repubs who sold them, installed them and created programs that can’t be checked for accuracy. Just maybe. Just maybe the decline of our public school system is part of a bigger plan. The dumber americans are, the easier they are led around by the nose and scared out of their wits by nonexistent WMD. It’s as if nobody ever read 1984 except the bush people and they are living the book. What happened to Osama bin Ladin? What is the relation between Osama and the Saudi Bush was holding hands with? There is a connection I guarantee you.
By norman
May 11, 2005 04:56 PM | Link to this
Tom Ridge, former head of homeland security, is a decent man, if slightly below par in intelligence. But then in PA he looks good.
He says that the color alerts which were frequent in the first two years after 9/11 were insisted upon by the Administration (that mean, Cheney) against his own advice. Clearly the whole anti-terrorist effort is just one more part of the pro-Bush agenda and plan. Has little to do with the real threats to America from these GOP fascists.
By kimberly
May 11, 2005 04:56 PM | Link to this
Norman, you will know them by their fruits, not their words. Christ would not convert you by stuffing his message down your throat or legislating it into your life. Look into their eyes. Look at what they give of themselves. When the love of God is there, you’ll see it there, not in the way they pound their fists on the pulpit or condemn those who are different. But yes, if you must commit us, I’d like a separate asylum, please!
By Crystal
May 11, 2005 04:58 PM | Link to this
Glad you are back, Whiley, and ON Topic. You’d make a good defense lawyer. Glad we live in this country. Ms. Wilbanks might face “stoning” or a “head chop” as in Nigeria and Saudi Arabia. Some justice!
By norman
May 11, 2005 04:58 PM | Link to this
I am just leaving you with food for thought as the day ends. I don’t want you to waste your time on tv situation comedies or sports events. I want you to fuss and fume about Norman and to have a sleepless night. Christians: go humiliate yourselves, it would do you good.
By lincoln
May 11, 2005 04:59 PM | Link to this
hey whiley, you think jail and a fine and community srvice is severe? good grief…
By Crystal
May 11, 2005 05:02 PM | Link to this
Better still, Norman. Why don’t you go to France? Au revoir!
By Joe
May 11, 2005 05:05 PM | Link to this
Everyone posting on the Jennifer Wilbanks ordeal seems to forget one thing. This is America where everyone is protected by constitutional rights.
You are not required to check in with your family prior to leaving.
You are not required to check in with the government prior to leaving.
If a massive manhunt is started for you, while it would be nice, you are not required to say “Here I am.”
You are free to come and go as you please in this country. The day that stops happening will be a sad day in this country. By the time she had reported this false kidnapping, the search had already been called off.
Jennifer Wilbanks owes no money to anyone. A lawyer that is any good could win at trial using my arguments from above. The only reason she is even remotely considering paying this back is to avoid charges from the Gwinnett DA.
By Rick
May 12, 2005 07:24 AM | Link to this
Diane is absolutely right, Jennifer Wilbanks needs to be held accountable for her actions, as we all should be. Compassion, yes, for her family, fiance, friends, searchers and for her. But, we still have to be held accountable. If we are not, then what kind of a legal system do we really have?
By Bruce
May 12, 2005 08:00 AM | Link to this
The more opinions I read here on Ms. Wilbanks the more I seem to want to change my mind. Joe you make some very valid points. If the folks in NM do not bring charges against her so be it. Here in Ga all she did was exercise her rights and freedoms as an American.
I do however feel for the friends, family and those that donated their time and resources to search for her but the friends and family knew how she was, and the others were only doing what they felt was the right thing to do. If the officals in Gwinnett Co. seek to charge her it is only because they do not like the nation seeing them with all that egg on their faces.
But on the other hand how many of us would be pitching such a fit if they hadn’t looked for her and she was found dead behind the shopping mall or in a wooded area 2 miles from her house?
By RS
May 12, 2005 08:00 AM | Link to this
Re my post of 5/9, 3:17pm: OK, obviously the spoiled brat craves attention, just like a 2-year old. That’s why a long, harsh prison sentence might suit her. Despite her homeliness, she’ll get plenty of attention THERE.
By Ben
May 12, 2005 08:16 AM | Link to this
Norman, but what I like about the Baptist is they play now, pay later. Plus the music ain’t too bad.
I wonder what you crazy Bush supporters think about this memo out of the UK?
By Bruce
May 12, 2005 08:37 AM | Link to this
Norman has it wrong. Baptist will not be the only ones in Heaven they will just be first. The Bible says the dead in Christ shall rise first.:-)
By Vince
May 12, 2005 08:37 AM | Link to this
Should she be held legally accountable? Not being a lawyer, all I understand is filing a false report could be a legal case.
Should she reimburse expenses? Nope. Not a penny.
Following missing person claims is part of the many services tax payers fund. The reason why officials are considering sending her a bill has nothing to do with her case; it has everything to do with all the other stupid cases which tie up our resources on a daily basis; and the fact that nobody seems to care.
I’ll bet if she was not a white woman, she would be sitting in a New Mexico jail today, and the forum question would be something like: “How much jail time does she deserve?”
By norman
May 12, 2005 08:39 AM | Link to this
What memo, Ben, are you referring to from the UK?
By norman
May 12, 2005 08:40 AM | Link to this
As it says in the Three Penny Opera: Wach’ auf du verrotteter Christ!
By Archie
May 12, 2005 08:49 AM | Link to this
Lozen I apologize for confusing you with Lashelle. I misread the post you made about your age and life experience.
By norman
May 12, 2005 08:52 AM | Link to this
Bruce: to turn that old saying upside down, Baptists are Methodists who can’t read!
Actually, the level of intellectual activity among Southern Baptists is so low that one wonders whether they missed out somehow on the evolutionary chain. Perhaps they don’t believe in Evolution because they so obviously haven’t profited from it.
By Sandy/Sanhan
May 12, 2005 08:53 AM | Link to this
Just had to comment on yesterday’s theological posts.
The fact that we nonsupporters of organized religion, agnostics, and atheists use bible verse in our arguments illustrates a number of things: First of all, we have read the bible and reject parts of it because of its contradictions, hatefulness, inaccuracies, so our rejection is not borne of ignorance of the subject at hand. Secondly, strong supporters of the bible, specifically those who wish to ram their religious beliefs into our psyches, or condemn us through their indifference use the bible as their sole weapon and reference point. Many of us could take texts from faiths other than Judaism and Christianity and make compelling arguments, but they would fall on deaf ears and closed minds, since the fanatically religious refuse to believe that any other texts have any validity or are inspired by “their God”. If one simply reads texts from across cultures and faiths, one will see that there are more similarities than differences, some good, some not, and among the latter, the erroneous belief that we are separate from God, that which I think of as the “original sin.”
Suppose, instead of invoking God as the moral absolute, we substituted functionality, that is, what works and what doesn’t work for all of humankind. It doesn’t take a theologic scholar to see that organized religions are not beneficial to us all, result from a marriage of politics and power early on, encourage the belief that humans are separate from God, and that God has favorites , tempered with the fact that we have free will, but can only use the way God has ordered us to.
Suppose a new gospel/revelation was put forth to all of mankind to include everyone: We are all one. Ours is not a better way, merely another way.
There are many paths to God (Life, Energy, Spirituality, Peace, Pure Unconditional Love, choose or make up your favorite). No one will be denied who takes a path of humility and sincerity. (So Norman, you could be treading on thin ice…)
And just suppose we decided that humans are not violent by nature, that violence is a learned response to fear and indifference.
Can you imagine the shift that could occur? What would you be willing to sacrifice to see this become a reality, that each of us is the greater spirit of God? Technically you don’t even have to believe in God, just that we are all connected. It could work for governments, too.
Neal Walsch has compiled these ideas in The New Revelation, which he says is inspired by God. Which of us has not asked these or similar questions? I think that most people who shun organized religion have been hurt or abandoned by it, had their intelligence and free will insulted by it, and ache to realize another way of thinking and believing.
Namaste. Thanks for indulging this “off topic” post. I offer it with humility and sincerity.
By Ben
May 12, 2005 08:59 AM | Link to this
Someone got ahold of a memo from the UK and Congress sent Bush a letter requesting an explanation of a secret British memo that said “intelligence and facts were being fixed” to support the Iraq war in mid-2002.
In a nutshell, the memo basically says that Bush had plans to go into Iraq and oust Saddam using 9/11 as his excuse. He considered a few other options but knew the people wouldn’t support them. And all of this was conveniently centered around the congressional elections. It’s a pretty interesting read and I’m going to check out the London Times and investigate further.
[http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/05/11/britain.war.memo/index.html]
By Whiley
May 12, 2005 09:00 AM | Link to this
OH GEEZ last night I learned the extent of her lie. This changes my opinion about everything.
However, I still think people are more angry at her, than, for instance lets say that guy that stabbed his girlfriend last night. Or the ex boyfriend that shot the new boyfriend in that restaurant on 41. (gosh I wonder why he was dumped??? lol)
By rocky
May 12, 2005 09:26 AM | Link to this
norman - I JUST finally stopped laughing at your statement “I hereby ask the French nation to assist us in effecting regime change in Washington”. Do me a favor. Go onto Google and do a search for “French Victories” and it will ask you “Do you mean French Defeats?” There ARE no French Victories! LOL
By norman
May 12, 2005 09:33 AM | Link to this
-Listen here Rocky. Before the 19th Century the French were considered the most military nation in Europe and they won most of their wars, including the war of the American Revolution. Napoleon conquered all of Europe before he was defeated by bigoted Spanish and Russian peasants. All the chivalric ideas come from medieval France. You are evidently bereft of not only biblical knowledge but of knowledge altogether. Stick to your bible, buddy, it fits your brain potential.
By rocky
May 12, 2005 09:37 AM | Link to this
Okay, okay. I’ll lay off the Bush Parade since I know there are many of you on here who can’t stomach it. Out of respect for my fellow bloggers, I will tone it down.
I heard this morning that not only did Wilskanks claim she was kidnapped, but now they say she said she was raped too! I knew a girl in college who claimed to have been raped on campus as she walked home from a date (I was dating her roommate) and after 10 hours of no sleep, frantic searching and police inquisition, she finally admitted that she’d made the whole thing up, and even scraped her own knees to make it look more legitimate. Needless to say, she was ostricized after that and quit school shortly thereafter, never to be heard from again. Rape is not a funny accusation to make, and it shows me how f*cked in the head this girl really is. But being menal still doesn’t excuse her from this behavior and she should be forced to pay the money she cost duluth, as well as make a public apology (NOT through her pastor) to the entire hispanic community and all white women (since she implicated them as well).
By rocky
May 12, 2005 09:42 AM | Link to this
Your panties are all in a wad this morning, norman. Take a moment to unbunch them, okay?
I don’t give a rat’s a* what the French did 300 years ago. TODAY they are nothing but a country full of pansie appeasers who wouldn’t know courage from a bag of sht, and have nothing to say about anything miliarily related. They are the JOKE of the world and I simply have a hard time taking people seriously who think bathing is optional.
Your little rants about my intellect always give me a good hearty chuckle. Keep ‘em coming, pansie lover!
By norman
May 12, 2005 09:45 AM | Link to this
Just heard there is a smog alert in Atlanta today. As a former resident of So. California I laughed out loud. Atlanta seems intent on making every mistake of LA. More cars lead to more traffic to more roads to more cars, to smog and more smog, to smog alerts. I’m glad I’m on the coast and not in Metro Atlanta. Perhaps Jennifer Wilbanks’ only punishment should be to be forced to stay in the Atlanta area and breath in that foul air.
By norman
May 12, 2005 09:48 AM | Link to this
Ben: nothing new in the fact that the Bush Administration is full of liars, starting from Dubya and Cheney on down. But our GOP fascists, like Rocky, don’t want facts; they just like to bomb everyone they disagree with to kingdom come. Well, they will get theirs.
By lozen
May 12, 2005 10:07 AM | Link to this
Yeah, they’re debating social security today on la-la hill. I only know one thing: no matter what plan they come up with, all of us will get screwed. The ss plan has worked for all these years. If the money in the fund hadn’t been sucked off and used for other things there would be no problem now. Put back our money that we, our parents, and their parents have paid into the fund for years and leave it alone! At least when ss began the government didn’t seem to be as determined to screw the people in this country as it is today!
By rocky
May 12, 2005 10:13 AM | Link to this
Your personality disorder makes total sense, now that I know you’re from Southern California. You should have said that up front, norman. I would have had more pity for you than I did before, rather than just thinking you were pathetic.
Yes, Ben. The whole administration is nothing but a bunch of lying liars who lie about lying when their lies lead to nothing but more lies about lying. You need to watch out for fascists like me who don’t want any facts. We prefer to spout off loaded statements and ugly things that we think will cause negative reactions in others, even if there is absolutely no basis for what we say and we sound like total morons….oh wait. I just described norman. Sorry about that, buddy.
By Crystal
May 12, 2005 10:14 AM | Link to this
Here we go again. Liberals have yet another new memo, a “secret British memo”. Amazing, isn’t it? Liberals can’t produce any new ideas. Everything is a “rediscovery just uncovered”. SOMEBODY wrote SOMETHING that wasn’t right. This sounds like a fraud similar to the last one, the great military records find that was phony.
Please go to Washington and give Democrats your new IDEAS. They haven’t produced a single one. They are all running backwards with nothing to offer.
By Lena
May 12, 2005 10:18 AM | Link to this
SHAUNTI! You’re ready to forgive this harpy because “something must have gone terribly wrong inside Jennifer Wilbanks’ mind or heart”? The same quote could be used to refer to Jerry Hobbs who just murdered his daughter and her best friend in Illinois. Something must have been terribly wrong inside of him to. Does that mean we should forgive him and not punish him for his crime? HECK NO! If Jennifer Wilbanks had called her fiancee from New Mexico and said, “Honey, I’m sorry. I got cold feet and ran away.” Then maybe, MAYBE, I would be willing to forgive her. But the fact that a 32 year old woman can’t take responsibility for her own actions is just disgusting. Either way, she should be held responsible for repaying the town for the search efforts. That $60,000 (what to Shaunti is a “mere speck” of money) may be the difference in the police department buying new equipment, the fire department buying a new fire truck, etc. That $60,000 came out of the paychecks of hard working people who don’t have the ridiculous amounts of money that Wilbanks’ family has. Let them pay for their daughter’s little flight of fancy and let Jennifer Wilbanks pay the consequences for her actions. It’s high time she grew up.
By rocky
May 12, 2005 10:21 AM | Link to this
lozen - you’re 100% correct. If they had put that money into a “trust fund” as they were SUPPOSED to have done and had PROMISED to do, rather than using it for their own pork spending and vote buying, then SS wouldn’t be in the hell-hole condition it is.
By Archie
May 12, 2005 10:25 AM | Link to this
Good job Lozen for your 10:07 am post. Although some here do make a good point about the majority speaking. Kerry didn’t have any margin for error because the majority wanted Bush plain and simple. It just says that in those red states the liberals have to get up off their behinds and vote. As for Wilbanks she filed a whopper of a false report. This woman is simply a dishonest person and she should not have to do hard time but she apparently she filed a false police report.
By Stan
May 12, 2005 10:36 AM | Link to this
Or not used it to finance a silly war like the one in Iraq. I still say that we should have invaded Saudi Arabia the people that flew the plane into the World Trade Centers were not Iraqi, they were Saudi Arabian. Why are Americans so naive? That’s like Norman stealing my car, and me shooting Rocky.
Plus, Iran has hated the US for years and they more than likely have weapons of mass destruction. Why not start there? Or the Pakistanis that have weapons of mass destruction and loathe the United States?
Another thing. What happened to the dart boards with Osama Bin Laden on them, or all of the Americans that were so determined to get him? What happened to that passion? Not a word is mentioned these days about Osama Bin Laden.
By Marco
May 12, 2005 10:41 AM | Link to this
Ms. Wilbanks broke the law and the law should be equally applied irregardless of the defendant’s socio-economic status. To do anything less would put the justice system under stress and you may as well start dropping the relevent statutues in this case from the OCGA if justice is not served. Unfortunately, she is not a first-time offender so the DA seems to have little discretion to find a suitable middle-groundbetween prosecuting or dropping the charges.
By Tony
May 12, 2005 10:47 AM | Link to this
Hey Rock,
Two men look out through the same bars: One sees the mud, and one the stars.
Keep reaching for the stars my friend. I’ve given up on the leftist bomb throwers. Let them wallow in their mud!
If anyone fails to see freedom in Iraq and the strides of democracy, they will forever be blind!
By Bruce
May 12, 2005 10:53 AM | Link to this
Sandy,
Your most recent post really sounds good but it does lead to questions. Whose moral absulute would we use? As you said all religions have both good and bad sides to them. Therefore who would make up the this moral absolute and how would they possibly get EVERYONE to follow it? Would the one world government establish it and make it law or should we just vote on it as a world community? You can think you are God if you want but I will not cross that line.
By Ivan Drago
May 12, 2005 11:15 AM | Link to this
Why are you so shocked about Bush and what he has done and is doing. I don’t need to read about an alledged memo…I’m not.
By lozen
May 12, 2005 11:31 AM | Link to this
Why don’t we use the moral absolutes of christianity, Bruce? And let us go to Exodus 4:24-26 to see what God’s moral absolutes are. God tries to kill Moses because his son by a Midianite woman is not circumcized. Moses’ wife gets angry, circumcizes the child with a sharp stone, and throws the foreskin at Moses’ feet! So God lets Moses go. Oh the priorities of Jehovah!
By Jack
May 12, 2005 11:35 AM | Link to this
I’ll bet if she was not a white woman, she would be sitting in a New Mexico jail today, and the forum question would be something like: “How much jail time does she deserve?”
Way to go Vincent!
By norman
May 12, 2005 11:39 AM | Link to this
Iozen: be careful, your criticism of the Bible sounds anti-semitic. You don’t seem to like primitive semites but you like primitive negroes. Why is that? Are you one of them?
By Jack
May 12, 2005 11:45 AM | Link to this
Thats whats wrong with Norm, he’s from the Left Coast. LOL.
What do you call 1000 frenchmen with their hands in the air?
The French army.
By Pernette
May 12, 2005 11:56 AM | Link to this
This case kind of reminds me of the young man from Chicago with the missing wife who was kidnapped by a young black man. After stopping and harassing black men all over Chicago it was found out that the young husband had himself killed his wife.
No Ms. Wilbanks crime wasn’t as heinous, but I think she should still be held liable. She was coward enough to runaway and accuse someone else of kidnapping her. She should be woman enough to own up to what she did and deal with the real repercussions of her actions and non actions.
By Sandy/Sanhan
May 12, 2005 12:07 PM | Link to this
Bruce, what if it’s God’s plan for you to cross that line? That we are all connected is the absolute for those who do not believe in a creator; Or God’s unconditional love for those who do. We first have to believe it then act on it. Those actions will have their own rewards, just as our current actions of believing that we are separate have their consequences. In other words, we create our own reality. To shift our belief system will produce a much higher level of consciousness beyond anything we can imagine now, and thus a different reality than we have now.
“Consider: The grandest qualities of God, love, compassion, caring, patience, understanding, the capacity to create and inspire, are what true humanity is all about.
Empower humanity to reveal true humanity to itself. When true humanity is revealed, it will be found to be Godly.
The fallacies you hold in your mind about God and Life, plus the fear those fallacies create, and your mental constructions, create dysfunctional social conventions-such as the convention of using violence to solve human problems and proclaiming that God actually commands, condones, and rewards such killing.
All human action and reaction originate in one of two places: love or fear. Of these two, fear is the predominant leader as the sponsor of human behavior (currently).”
Neale Walsch
Again, this is just one path to the simple truth.
How much of traditional faiths depend on being fearful of God and presumed judgement? Is God’s love unconditional or isn’t it? My cognitive dissonance with regard to the rules and regulations of organized relgions tells me that either they’re wrong or God is wrong. Having to choose between the two, I’d say that man-made organized religion is wrong, that God’s and our idea of how things should be is more likely to be correct if it comes from a loving ideal rather than a fearful one.
Ultimately, our souls can’t be laid to waste if we are the spiritual embodiment of God’s ideals, unless God wishes to destroy himself. All this will go on forever, but it can go on at a much higher consciousness if we choose it.
You’re right to question how this works in terms of world powers and governments. It’s mind-boggling to think about, but to simplify it, we have to find the one thing that all humans want badly enough to change their thinking for it. If that thing is peace, then we have to do what we can to make sure there’s enough to go around.
By norman
May 12, 2005 12:23 PM | Link to this
There are many things wrong with California: too much smog, too much traffic, too many illegals, too many Hispanics, too many people period! But there is one thing you cannot accuse them of: stupid, Christian voting for Bush!
By lozen
May 12, 2005 12:27 PM | Link to this
Norman, nothing anti-semitic about it! In spirit perhaps I am one of them! It’s hard to know about the blood mix thing that seems to be so important to you. There may very well be the blood of people of color back there somewhere. Maybe that’s why I love jazz, dancing, sex, having fun, laughing, singing. Doesn’t all that fit your stereotype of black people?
By Jack
May 12, 2005 12:30 PM | Link to this
Yeah. Kerry “the gigilo” would have been a better choice. LOL!
By Lyrazel
May 12, 2005 12:40 PM | Link to this
I read in the news that some interrogators at Guantanamo Bay threw Korans in toilets—as part of the terrorist investigation interrogations. Offends me deeply to think we are involved in this kind of hypocrisy. What do we stand for as a nation?
Lyrazels projections: gas at 5.00/gallon by early next year. Foreign banks will start selling greenbacks, especially China and Middle Eastern countries—OPEC will start pricing crude oil in Euros—has begun but will get member vote on new resolution by Sept Surging interest rates, devalued greenbacks as nations across the world declare no faith in the massive deficit America maintains. The Pension Guarantee Fund will go bust with United, American, Delta, GM and Ford dumping their pension plans and declaring bankrupcy within an 8 month period. A new depression is looming—pay off your mortages—sell your stocks and buy gold….ssi waits for no one…only them already collecting will see it—all others will face stark bankrupcy of the system. Massive unemployment, soaring healthcare costs, will completely eat up most 401ks and retirement savings. Boomers learning that people dont hire the elderly—priceless.
The fatted calf of living beyond our means is being incinerated—life is no picnic.
By Ben
May 12, 2005 12:40 PM | Link to this
Well Crystal, I am not a liberal, so I am not not trying to produce anything to prove anything. I just think it’s interesting that people are so stuck on the liberal/conversative garbage when they are being misled. I only take interest in the subject because it personally affected me as I was there, and I have lost friends there. I understand their is a cost to war, but it just makes it even more unnecessary when the resources of our military are used to promote, protect and even enforce the will of one man, not a nation.
And the real troubling part is that he is so hell bent on proving his point that he is overlooking more prevelant threats as they continue to grow. And in the current state of our military, we will not be able to sustain a prolonged battle, conflict or war — especially with likes of Korea.
So I am not a liberal looking to smear your beloved leader, I am someone who is MORE intimately affected by his judgement (or lack of) than you. So yes I find it interesting that this document shows up.
By Ben
May 12, 2005 12:42 PM | Link to this
Whose to say Kerry wouldn’t have been the better choice? Not that I prefer him, but I am waiting for another president who is more concerned with taking care of home.
By LaShelle
May 12, 2005 12:52 PM | Link to this
So it appears that I’ve stumbled into the “BUSH SUCKS” debate, damn am I glad to be here! :o)
By lozen
May 12, 2005 12:53 PM | Link to this
Sandy, you have grown far, far beyond the understanding of most people on this forum. Your post is transcendent, loving, intelligent, humane. You are the only person I can relate to spiritually on this forum. You don’t waste your time trying to refute their beliefs; you just put out an example of higher understanding. Unfortunately, Bruce’s response to your earlier post shows that he isn’t ready for your ideas. Bruce believes he needs a moral absolute coming from somewhere outside of himself. I guess that means he doesn’t think he can be moral without someone telling him what he has to do/not do. And he thinks you are trying to cross some line and play god but, of course, he isn’t! Some people still believe they need an outside authority to control them. The church teaches them constantly that they do. The organized churches will never voluntarily give up their authority and power over humanity. I’m sure you know the story about god hiding the keys to finding our way, in the last place humans would ever look: inside ourselves.
By Stan
May 12, 2005 12:54 PM | Link to this
Tony, why do you get so upset when people criticize the president? Are we supposed to sit back, twittle our thumbs, and go along with every decision he makes?
By Ben
May 12, 2005 01:02 PM | Link to this
There’s no mention of Osama Tony, because as long as he is out there, we have reason to continue this so-called GWOT.
By lozen
May 12, 2005 01:07 PM | Link to this
The people who really got the message that you cannot question god, also find it hard to question the prezident. It is a matter of believing in that outside authority and not questioning that powerful authority. And that is why kings/lords/governments/politics and organized religion have always been such happy bed fellows in the past. Teach people to bow down to an invisible lord and it’s so easy to teach them to bow down to the president/king/etc. Makes for a very smooth hierarchy with those on top not having to worry about those on the bottom. Napoleon said, “religion is all that keeps the poor from killing the wealthy.”
By Crystal
May 12, 2005 01:18 PM | Link to this
Well, Ben, Pres. Bush was elected by the citizens of this country. The war in Iraq was approved by our elected Congress. How can you say this is the will of one man?
There are plenty of veterans in my family. I don’t betray them or you or the military in Iraq by saying they are fighting for nothing or on one man’s whim. That is not true. Nor do I condemn our country if the president does something I don’t agree with. He is a strong president and we need one. We live in the finest country in the world and I really get “ticked off” when I read all the rotten remarks about it.Do these upstanding citizens want us wiped out? A little loyalty would be a nice change for many.
By kimberly
May 12, 2005 01:22 PM | Link to this
Tony: the following quote from today’s Associated Press is by an Iraqi family man: “It’s truly horrific, there are snipers everywhere, rockets, no food, no electricity,” Abu Omar al-Ani, a father of three, said from Qaim on Monday night. “Today five rockets fell in front of my house. … We are mentally exhausted.”
I guess I’m blind because I can’t see the wonderful joy that’s been delivered along with the deaths of 1600 American soldiers and the wounding of 10,000 more.
Perhaps you could write down some of that pretty LOVE stuff you talk about and send it to Mr. Oma al-Ani to comfort him as he tries to keep his family alive. Don’t forget to CC the families of the dead American soldiers, as they also need the comfort of your kind words.
By Bruce
May 12, 2005 01:23 PM | Link to this
Sandy, You say the absolute is taht we are all connected. Well I for one do not believe that so your idea of a absolute would not fit into my belive system. If each of us create our own reality then I ask again whose moral absolute or even reality do we follow? If you say God’s, then I ask whose God? How can it be implemented to satisify every one? If we are all connected, as you say, then why are we so different? This idea is no more than a dream, a very goof dream, but a dream none the less. You maybe able to find 100 people that will find a common ground and idea but I believe beyond that even those that follow the same God with the same traditions will be difficult to bring together.
Lozen,
Go back and read Sandy’s post again she brought up the moral absolute topic, I just responded. It is apparent you are just her to stir up as much trouble as you can. Well I better not go on my mother would roll over in her grave if she knew I was talking to an elder this way.
By Bruce
May 12, 2005 01:31 PM | Link to this
Corrections:
taht = that belive = believe goof = good
Sorry
By lozen
May 12, 2005 01:34 PM | Link to this
Bruce, thank you for respecting your elders! Could you explain your second sentence to me, son? I think you were accusing me of agreeing with her just to stir up trouble? Not true. Out of all the wonderful things Sandy said, you picked the issue of moral authority to respond to.
By Ben
May 12, 2005 01:41 PM | Link to this
I know how the President is elected. And I know that Congress approved the war. But the point that you are missing is that he very possibly DECEIVED Congress by manipulating the intelligence that justified their approval. That, Crystal, is the point. It was not the will of the people who elected him. The people were behind the actions in Afghanistan because they were justified by getting Osama. Going to Iraq was like me saying, “Here! Use my credit card to go buy that shirt you like and you getting that shirt and figuring while I have it, let’s just stroll over to Macy’s and get that perfume I like, and why not that pretty cardigan.”
I’m not betraying any service men in this war or any other war by saying our President is wrong. I, at times, fought beside them and for the same reason. But you know where your confusion comes in, they are not fighting this war for the President, they are fighting to stay alive and keep their friends alive, they are fighting for their particular branch of service. That may all fall under the scope of the President, but don’t think for one minute what we did over there was for George W. Bush.
And I am the last thing I want to see the U.S. get wiped out. But there are few other countries and ruthless leaders out their that posed a much greater threat than Saddam Hussein, as you should really see with the resentment N. Korea has against us. Saddam posed NO threat to the U.S. when we decided to take the run through the desert.
And loyalty, Crystal, is much like respect in my book. It’s not given away like mints after dinner — it is earned. And quite honestly, what has he done to earn your loyalty, surely he hasn’t been loyal to you. That is, of course, unless you make more $120,000 a year.
By Bruce
May 12, 2005 01:46 PM | Link to this
I chose to respond to the moral absolute statement because, to me, that was the foundation of her post. No more than you or anyone else on this blog has done from time to time. Very seldom does anyone respond to everything in a post that long. Did you go back and check who began the topic of moral absolute?
By Coach
May 12, 2005 01:55 PM | Link to this
I think Bush is great, we haven’t had any terrorists attacks since he took the fight to them. He is exactly what the terrorists didn’t need. Someone who isn’t afraid to fight, all the people who don’t like him would get many more Americans killed.
By Leslie
May 12, 2005 01:57 PM | Link to this
Shaunti- I usually agree with your columns, but I have to go with Diane on this one. I agree that we do need to be compassionate, but that doesn’t mean we throw all accountability out the window. I don’t think she necessarily deserves to have the book thrown at her, but paying back the $60K is a good start. I know many people with anxiety and depression problems, and I am sorry that JW and her family have to endure that. What she did IS forgivable. But, there are consequences to all of our actions for good or bad and she needs to be held accountable for breaking laws related to filing a false report.
By LaShelle
May 12, 2005 01:59 PM | Link to this
Ben, great post! However, I would like to notify everyone of one thing… WE ARE NOT AT WAR! Technically speaking, we are involved in a ‘conflict.’ Congress has not issued a ‘Declaration of War’ they have simply approved funding for equipment and other needs of those who were dragged over there. That disgusts me even more because Bushy-boy is using troops like never before. If we were at war do you think he’d be conducting a ‘back-door draft’? Cuz you honestly don’t think all of these ‘National Guard’ commercials are for entertainment do you?
By Stan
May 12, 2005 02:01 PM | Link to this
Ben, you’re the man. I love being an American. I have lived outside of the United States, and got a deeper understanding and appreciation for the US.
But I refuse to lay down like a rug, and just accept what the president says and does. Being patriotic does not mean that I have to be complacent. If I love my country, I stand up for it and don’t get led around by the nose.
By LaShelle
May 12, 2005 02:01 PM | Link to this
Coach, FYI: We didn’t have any terrorist attacks before he was in office either.
By Coach
May 12, 2005 02:08 PM | Link to this
LaShelle, Early nineties in New York there was an attack in parking garage(big new york building) and there were several others. I’m sure Bin Laden would have attacked on 9-11 reguardless of who was president. Thank God for George Bush, he is a kicker.
By Randy
May 12, 2005 02:12 PM | Link to this
Coach is right, Bush is great, go kick some terrorist behind. Take the battle to them, or we will be fighting them here and all you liberals will really be in danger.
By rocky
May 12, 2005 02:12 PM | Link to this
You’re right, Tony. I’m not going to waste any more of my time trying to create miracles to make the blind see.
norman, there are so many things wrong with people from California that there isn’t enough space on this blog to even scratch the surface. It is a state full of people who are out of touch with reality and out of step with the rest of the country, and who, thankfully, will one day fall into the ocean and no longer be a part of our beloved nation. Please make sure you’re visiting California when that happens. Two birds with one stone.
Kerry has decided not to run again, but that was only before he decided he wanted to run again. And now, he’s apparently against gay marriage, but that only happened after he was in favor of it. So chins up! If he really is determined to run again in 2008, maybe he’ll win this time.
YEAH RIGHT
By Ben
May 12, 2005 02:12 PM | Link to this
Hey Coach, the Marines, Sailors, Soldiers and Airmen over in Iraq are Americans buddy. They see terrorist attacks everyday.
And do you REALLY think that after this war (sorry conflict) is said and done that terrorism will be gone?
By LaShelle
May 12, 2005 02:13 PM | Link to this
Ok, but who was in office when that attack occurred?? And by the way, I didn’t mean we’d NEVER had an attack, can we say Eric Robert Rudolph?
By LaShelle
May 12, 2005 02:17 PM | Link to this
Anyway, there were bigger problems that needed to be taken care of. Instead, we decided to go play hide-and-seek with Sadam and all of his friends who, by the way, we helped get where they were (but nobody want to talk about that, do they). Let’s start with N. Korea for example, they’ve been waving that big ol’ red nuc flag since before this thing started and did we think they were a threat, nooo. Bushy-boy thought they would just go away and have they, nooo.
By rocky
May 12, 2005 02:22 PM | Link to this
Um, LaShelle - we had previous attacks while CLINTON was in office. The World Trade Center was attacked on February 26, 1993 by Bin Laden’s group, killing six people and wounding more than 1,000. They just weren’t able to bring down the towers like they did the second time they tried. Clinton was too focused on the top of the head under his desk to do anything about it. The US Embassy in Lima, Peru was also bombed in 1990 under Clinton’s watch. Bush is just the first president to actually take action as a result of terrorism and their attacks against us abroad and at home. Not to mention that Clinton turned down an offer for Bin Laden to be handed over to US custody.
By Sandy/Sanhan
May 12, 2005 02:23 PM | Link to this
Bruce, whose moral absolute do you follow now? If you follow a prescribed religion, it has been limited by the fallacies humans have attached to it. Your belief in that reality becomes your reality. You’ve decided that we are not all connected, and therfore your reality dictates that back to you. So you sow, so shall you reap.
What would it take to convince you that in every culture that talks about a creator, they are talking about the same one? A miracle? A miracle like people cooperating together for the common good? This is a leap of faith that quickly changes to a plummet of despair when we think that God has favorites. What’s the point of having favorites? If it’s God’s plan to achieve some goal, don’t you think that goal will be reached faster and more gloriously if we cooperate with each other?
When I went to an all-girl’s Catholic school 25+ years ago, my Social Studies class invited people of different cultures and religions. There was a woman who practiced Hinduism who spoke about about different deities, the chief of which is Brahma. I asked the question, knowing I could suffer the retribution of a Sister of St. Joseph, to whom did this woman pray? Was it the same God the Father that I prayed to? She kind of snorted derisively and said, “Of course it is.”
For some reason, some folks think it is a good thing to divide people into many small groups. I suppose it is easier than gathering us together. Perhaps you think by categorizing people it makes your position more clear, more righteous. But at a terrible price. In the long run, is it better to build fences or bridges?
Last week or so, there was a blog discussion here between two people who were arguing over which Marist Catholic position was correct! Talk about minutiae…
If you could alleviate just a little bit of suffering by conceding some small point, would you do it? Would you risk “being right” for “being loving”? Or will you believe that love conquers all, that being loving is being right? The suffering you relieve may be your own. Given the choice between saving my own soul with your belief system, or casting the net wide to include all humanity and reaching for higher consciousness with all of humanity, I’ll choose the latter. Now that I know that choice exists, I could never go back, no more than I could go back to my all-girl Catholic high school.
I guess the short answer is that placing absolutes on God is like destroying hope, or destroying our souls. Can’t be done.
Lozen, thanks. Inspiration can be found in the darndest places… Don’t be too hard on Bruce, though. He’s asking the right questions in the way that is best for him. Just like the rest of us.
By Randy
May 12, 2005 02:23 PM | Link to this
Rocky, There are alot of good Christian people in California, especially in southern California. One of the largest Christian church is about 40 miles southwest of L.A.(Saddleback). San Diego is strong in Christians also. I would stay away from San Francisco and Vermont.
By Ben
May 12, 2005 02:24 PM | Link to this
You are absolutely right, Bush is an a* kicker. And those of us in the military loved that. But there’s a big difference between an a* kicker and a bully. A* kickers know they can kick a* and only do so when they need to.
But sometimes, being an a* kicker can come back and bite you in the a*.
Wow, I said a** a lot. I guess I am vulgar Norman.
By Eirik
May 12, 2005 02:25 PM | Link to this
Coach and Randy are the same.
By rocky
May 12, 2005 02:26 PM | Link to this
Ben - Are you saying that we shouldn’t fight back against terrorism because no matter what we do, it will still exist? Is that what you are saying?
By Crystal
May 12, 2005 02:27 PM | Link to this
Loyalty to my country does not have to be earned. I was fortunate enough to be born in this country. I don’t run around saying “Is it good enough for me?” And I am neither rich nor poor.
You, Ben, were the one who said we were in Iraq “to enforce the will of one man”. You are the one confused. The president relayed to Congress and the American people the same information he and Tony Blair received. The 9/11 Committee said as much. Inaccurate information came from the CIA and the British spy system.
As to N. Korea and Iran, they have hated us for decades. Remember the history of the Korean Conflict? The Jimmy Carter era with our citizens held prisoner in Iran? Their hate for us is nothing new. Their weapons are. Our government is trying to let Europeans handle Iran and China handle N. Korea. It is a definite try for peace on our part. But overlook all that and give no support. Try Kimberly’s approach i.e.,we don’t want peace because we LOVE the wonderful joy of having people killed.
By rocky
May 12, 2005 02:30 PM | Link to this
LaShelle - if you really want to go back and look at who is responsible for allowing N. Korea and Iran to build up their nukes, look no further than that disgrace to our state, Jimmy Carter - the man who never met a dictator he didn’t like. Do a little research on him and his ridiculous policies and passive non-leadership, and then tell me how we got to where we are today, with the little N. Korean gargoyle Kim Jong Ill and Iran and their nuclear ambitions. You can’t blame Bush for that, much as you want to.
By LaShelle
May 12, 2005 02:31 PM | Link to this
Rocky, Bush had no choice because he knew if he had done nothing he would have been quickly impeached and thrown to the wolves. Tell me this has the approach he has taken worked? (keep in mind we are still looking for the person who has gladly taken resposiblity for the attacks and the fact that thousands are dying needlessly in Iraq) Sure, he’s appeased a few people and maybe even created a ‘legacy’ (whatever) but what you do doesn’t matter if it doesn’t work. I personally feel for all of those in Iraq who have no business there putting their lives on the line. And who are we to judge Clinton, he was wrong for cheating but that’s for Hillary to deal with. We, in the U.S. are such moral hypocrits. If we don’t know about it, then it’s okay. Do you know that some of our “best presidents” were cheaters as well, i.e. JFK, and that’s just to start. It was none of our business to start with and it stil isn’t.
By Suzie
May 12, 2005 02:33 PM | Link to this
I agree with Coach, Bush is great. Go get them.
By LaShelle
May 12, 2005 02:34 PM | Link to this
Thank you Ben, at least someone can see past their Bushisms! For a minute there I thought I was on my own. But we have become the ‘world’s policeman’ but I ask you this, who’s taking care of home?
By Eirik
May 12, 2005 02:37 PM | Link to this
All of you Iraq war supporters are now in the minority. The latest poll shows that the majority of Americans don’t think the war (conflict…whatever) has been worth the cost. There’s still no stability there, our allies are formulating exit plans, and recruiters can’t convince enough people to join up, meaning the US is vulnerable from other areas. This will be Bush’s Vietnam.
By LaShelle
May 12, 2005 02:37 PM | Link to this
Rocky, I didn’t try to, read my post again and you’ll see that I said “we” as in America, the United States of America to be exact.
By Boscoe
May 12, 2005 02:41 PM | Link to this
Bawa Jain, secretary-general of the Millennium Peace Summit, says he thinks all religions and spiritualists, as well as assorted witch doctors, sha-mans and medicine men, draw their wisdom from the same source. But he applauds efforts to outlaw proselytizing since it matters little whether one worships a downed World War II airplane with a cargo cult, is a snake-handling Baptist or a Roman Catholic. That view has been met with strict opposition from the Vatican and mainline Protestants, who oppose the notion that all religions are equal. As host of the U.N.’s Millennium Peace Summit of Religious and Spiritual Leaders, Jain told an international meeting of 1,000 delegates that religions need to accept the validity of all beliefs to attain world peace. The summit, the first of its kind to be sponsored by the United Nations, was held in New York City Aug. 28-31 just before political leaders gathered for the U.N. Millennium Assembly. The timing was perfect, says Jain, as it allowed religious leaders to update their political counterparts on how to usher in the peace of the new world order through religious universalism. According to Francis Cardinal Arinze, president for interreligious dialogue at the Vatican and a speaker at the summit, the Catholic Church also would favor one religion in the world - if it were Roman Catholicism. Assorted grand muftis and other true believers hold the same view, again so long as it is their faith that is universally recognized. That each is out to convert the world is to be expected, so the proposed ban on proselytizing is surprising….So what is the objective here? Is it religious tolerance, unification or subversion of religious faith? Jain tells Insight that he looks forward to a day when religious people no longer insist on a single truth. And the URI, in which Jain is active and which was one of the partners for the summit, takes it even further. URI president Swing says, “There will have to be a godly cease-fire, a temporary truce where the absolute exclusive claims of each [religion] will be honored but an agreed-upon neutrality will be exercised in terms of proselytizing, condemning, murdering or dominating. These will not be tolerated in the United Religions zone. Sound familiar Sandy?
By LaShelle
May 12, 2005 02:42 PM | Link to this
High five for Erik Here’s a BUSH SUCKS pin for you too.
By Ben
May 12, 2005 02:43 PM | Link to this
I’m not saying we shouldn’t fight terrorism Rocky. 9/11 justified our actions in Afghanistan. Go after the guy who did it. What I am saying is there was no threat posed by Iraq when we decided to oust Saddam. We were just on a roll.
And no Crystal, I’m not confused, you just don’t listen. I originally said that it was interesting that this memo surfaced because it suggests that the INFO WAS MANIPULATED to facilitate the wishes of G.W.B.
By mel
May 12, 2005 02:44 PM | Link to this
CNN is reporting that Ms. Wilbanks gave the police graphic details of her “sexual assault” by her abductors. How sick is this woman? This is a result of her lying and thieving all of her life and being coddled for it.
By Bruce
May 12, 2005 02:56 PM | Link to this
Sandy,
Again, this all sounds rosie but how will it be implemented? If I understand you correctly you suggest a compromise between beliefs? Do you really believe that Muslims will compromise with Christains or Buddist? Christians will compromise with any other religion? How do you convence someone to compromise on their beliefs? If they compromise what good is that belief? Please do not misunderstand. I am not trying to convert you or anyone else. I to am looking for understanding and knowledge. My problem is the understanding and knowledge I presently have is adequate for me and makes more since than your lets all come together around the camp fire and sing “kum by yah”. Like I said what you say sounds good but I just cannot see it as a reality.
By Eirik
May 12, 2005 02:57 PM | Link to this
LaShelle,
I don’t think I’m ready to go that far (no Bush Sucks pins)…I actually voted for him in 2000, and although I didn’t in 2004 I wasn’t crushed that Kerry hadn’t won…
I was salivating like everyone else when we invaded Afghanistan and then all of sudden we’re going after Iraq…which sane people knew was a mistake from the beginning…and it has now proven to be a mistake. Yet, his policies are still being defended. The US has a credibility issue from the top all the way down to the military brass.
By AllaboutME
May 12, 2005 03:00 PM | Link to this
…hmmm…california also has the largest KKK and Aryan Nation groups…food for thought…ah well, time for me and my gal to pick up the white van from the auto-painting store…if the vans a rockin dont come knockin………..
By LaShelle
May 12, 2005 03:05 PM | Link to this
Lol@Eirik, but you’re right…If you look at a lot of situations, we’re the biggest hypocrits and should have no credibility; but somehow (money talks) we do, things that you go hmmm….
By rocky
May 12, 2005 03:13 PM | Link to this
Eirick - we all know how reliable those polls are, right? After all, they correctly predicted the outcome of the election when they ALL said Kerry would win! Get over it. The majority spoke in November. You can look at any polls you want to and it won’t change the reality that more people wanted Bush in office again than those who didn’t. Not to mention that voter fraud has now shown that Kerry didn’t even win Wisconsin as was originally thought. Not that it matters.
LaShelle - I’m not judging Clinton for having an affair. That’s between him and his repulsive wife. I’m judging him for lying under oath. Or is lying under oath okay too, in your book? Should he not be held to that kind of standard at all?
To answer your question - Absolutely Yes. The approach he has taken is WORKING. It’s not over yet, so I can’t say it has WORKED, past tense. There are a lot fewer members of Al-Qaida now than there were, including a vast majority of their top leaders. We haven’t had a terrorist attack here since 9/11, and we can thank our beloved President for that. Not that hateful libs like you could ever bring themselves to admit that.
By Crystal
May 12, 2005 03:15 PM | Link to this
Now we have “info was manipulated to facilitate the wishes of GWB”. That’s a nice way to suggest that Bush was lying, Ben. No proof. No evidence. No support from Congress by committees who investigated. Just stay suspicious and grab at straws in the wind. Has LaShelle sent you one of her liberal peeve pins?
By kimberly
May 12, 2005 03:16 PM | Link to this
Rocky, good point about the WTC attacks in 93. BTW, that happened shortly after Clinton took office. (Was the previous President blamed? I can’t remember.) Anyway, THOSE PERPTRATORS were captured, tried, and imprisoned. It was handled, and justice was dispensed.
Meanwhile….. (dum dum dee dum, la dee dah jeopardy theme) where is that SAUDI guy, Bin Laden who organized the ‘01 attack? Has he been captured and brought to justice? Hmmm… Was the previous president blamed? I can’t remember. Maybe it WAS Clinton’s fault; I mean, I haven’t seen HIM on TV tongue-kissing the Prince of Oil dynasty wealth…. I really need to stay more informed.
By kimberly
May 12, 2005 03:22 PM | Link to this
Lying under OATH is a horrific crime! Does that explain why Bush and Cheney OPPOSED the formation of the 9-11 commission to investigate what happened… and then REFUSED to testify before said commission to tell what they knew…
And then when they pretty much HAD to testify after everyone else did, they did so under the STIPULATION that they NOT BE UNDER OATH? Also, no recording devices were allowed, and no reports made of their actual testimony, which was, again NOT UNDER OATH, and presumably (although we don’t know) NOT related to their last sexual encounters?
Was I the ONLY person paying attention that week?
By Whiley
May 12, 2005 03:24 PM | Link to this
Did anyone else watch LOST last night?
By rocky
May 12, 2005 03:26 PM | Link to this
Yes you do need to stay more informed, Kimberly. Because there is considerable evidence that the 1993 Trade Center bombing was a case of Iraqi intelligence (i.e., Saddam) directing a major terrorist operation and leaving behind a few minor figures to be arrested and take the blame. Saddam also gave sanctuary to Ramzi Yousef, who was the master mind of the ‘93 bombing, once the bombing occurred. Is that what you consider to be “justice was served”?
Clinton turned down an opportunity to have Bin Laden handed over to US custody. Was that not his fault either? He was too busy sliding cigars into the taco of his intern to worry about french kissing any foreign leaders.
By LaShelle
May 12, 2005 03:28 PM | Link to this
Liberal, conservative, whatever, fact is your faithful leader said the war was over over a year ago and yet we still have people over there dying every day. Oh and by the way where are those horrible, horrible WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION that we went to look for in the first place? Don’t feel bad if you don’t know, cuz neither does Dubya.
As for Clinton, he was wrong for lying but his lie didn’t kill thousands of soldiers and civilians, did it? Nope, didn’t think so, and like I said to begin with, it was never any of our business in the first place. How many common husbands are put on trial for cheating on their wives? Don’t feel bad if you don’t know that either.
Crystal, by the way, I don’t consider myself Liberal, more like Independant. I don’t hate Republicans, I just don’t like Dubya, and from the way things are going, I’m not the only one.
By Tim
May 12, 2005 03:29 PM | Link to this
sick em kimberly!! :)
By Eirik
May 12, 2005 03:29 PM | Link to this
Rocky,
Well you can believe the polls are not…but you seem to have seletive memory about the polls for the recent election. Seems I remember plenty of polls showing Kerry behind. Your source for news obviously isn’t the same as mine. Sorry…regardless of the presidential election (which I stated I was ambivalant about)…national support for the Iraq mistake is waning fast. It is still a hellish quagmire. But why don’t you state the exact number of acceptable deaths before we call it another war that we “lost”.
By rocky
May 12, 2005 03:29 PM | Link to this
LOL!!! kimberly, you and all your conspiracy theories make me laugh and laugh and laugh. Please don’t ever change.
By Ben
May 12, 2005 03:32 PM | Link to this
Again Crystal, all you are doing is talking not listening. My original post on the topic never suggested that he was lying, but that it was funny to me how this document contradicts the Bush supporters, and, well Bush. I never accused him of lying I just wondered what his supporters thought of the memo.
And if you play closer attention, you will notice it was Norman who called the administration liars and Rocky followed suit with a sarcastict post mocking Norman answering me. I don’t think I ever used the word lie, instead I said that he quite possibly misled you. And if this document is in fact authentic (which the British don’t dispute) then yes Crystal HE LIED.
But yes the story (WHICH WAS MY ORIGINAL POINT) does suggest that the intelligence was manipulated to support BUSH’S decision to invade Iraq.
If you listen, you might learn.
By lozen
May 12, 2005 03:33 PM | Link to this
Well Boscoe, of course the Vatican and protestant christians oppose the idea of no proselytizing. We have to send the missionaries to those shamans, witch doctors and medicine men to teach them that their beliefs are all wrong and only the christians are right in their one true religion! The Abrahamic religions are so arrogant and so divisive. This is exactly what Sandy is talking about. Human beings will never be able to come together in any way as long as christianity exists. Jain is absolutely correct when he says religions need to accept the validity of all beliefs to attain world peace. And Swing is right to say we have to have a godly cease fire. He does say, “the absolute exclusive claims of each religion will be honored.” What’s upsetting you about that Boscoe? And what’s upsetting about his statement that there must be no proselytizing to, condemning, murdering or dominating others who have a different religion?
By LaShelle
May 12, 2005 03:33 PM | Link to this
You know I was taking a Global Issues Political Science class when this “war” began. If a class full of college students can tell it would’ve turned out this way, why couldn’t the Prez? You know, as educated as he is and all.
By Ben
May 12, 2005 03:33 PM | Link to this
AND CRYSTAL, Congress sent a letter to the PRESIDENT demanding an explanation!
By rocky
May 12, 2005 03:34 PM | Link to this
Well, as usual, it’s been a real slice of Heaven to chat with all of you today. Hope you all have a wonderful evening and I encourage all the lefties to come up with some new and exciting consipracy theories to share with the group tomorrow!
Take care and God bless (bless even those who don’t think there is a God who can bless them).
By LaShelle
May 12, 2005 03:36 PM | Link to this
Rocky, you forget “Conspiracy Theories” are not alway wrong.
By lozen
May 12, 2005 03:40 PM | Link to this
Rocky, You have mentioned this twice and I know nothing about it. When did Clinton turn down an opportunity to have Bin Laden handed over to US custody?
By Jack
May 12, 2005 04:00 PM | Link to this
Ok. I voted for Bush cause the Dem’s gave us Kerry who was the worse of to evils. Bush acted upon the information given to him. Had he not tried to do the right thing and waste time going to the UN for support, we probably would have found WMDs in Iraq. We wasted so much time messing with the UN that it gave Saddam time to hide or remove them. Bush is a Texan just like LBJ. Kennedy wanted to take us out of Vietnam but before he could, he was assasinated. LBJ took over and thought it was a good idea to stay in there. I don’t know why Texans are so war happy but thats my take on it. LBJ sucked. Bush sucks but not near as much as Kerry. I do feel safer with a president that has gonads, unlike Kerry or Jimmy “no balls” Carter.
By kimberly
May 12, 2005 04:08 PM | Link to this
Lozen, that whole “Clinton turned down the chance to get Bin Laden” thing is a Repub LIE they use to cover up the conspiracy that makes Rocky laugh. If you’ve done something wrong, point the finger at someone else… QUICK!
It’s amazing that Clinton got anything done at all while President, since he had to spend half his time defending himself from bogus legal charges like um… “file gate” and real estate deals in which he LOST money, and um… trailer park chicks who said he exposed himself, and Ooooh-ooohhhh CONSPIRACIES about how he was running drugs and having the innocent people of Arkansas murdered to cover it up. Hahaha!
Didn’t those America-loving Republicans WANT him to focus on National security issues? Didn’t they know all that time he spent in depositions would detract from his very important JOB to which he actually was elected? Or were they too busy foaming at the mouth with images of “cigars and tacos” in their heads? Hahahaha! (I LOVE that Rocky’s such a perv!){;->
By Crystal
May 12, 2005 04:17 PM | Link to this
Ben, my quotes were from you and were in quotation marks. You are still presenting an unverified source as something to consider. Propaganda is spread through suggestions to influence people.You don’t have to make a flat statement, just suggest it. But you know that as well as I do. I pay little attention to Norman’s idiosyncrasies. But I thought better of you.
By Sandy/Sanhan
May 12, 2005 04:20 PM | Link to this
Boscoe, Nope. Never heard of whatever your post was about. Why so hostile?
Bruce, I’m not sure where I gave you the impression that there was going to be some religious regime change to be implemented… I’m talking about something much more subtle, but no less powerful, i.e., a consciousness shift. It involves personal realizations, dealing truthfully with ourselves first, then with the creator if we choose.
The steps include the following: Acknowledgement that some of your old beliefs about God and Life are no longer working.
Acknowledgement there is something you do not understand about God and Life, which if you did understand it, it would change everything.
Willingness to choose a new understanding of God and Life. that could produce change on the planet.
Courage to explore this understanding and if it aligns with our inner truth and knowing, enlarge your belief system to include it.
Choosing to live your life as demonstrations of your highest and grandest beliefs, rather than denials of them.
To answer your questions about various faiths, I don’t know if they will compromise or not; I am simply stating that even from my casual readings of many of them, they have a lot more in common than meets the eye. They only get ugly when they proclaim separation, exclusivity, and righteousness, and declare difference to be divisions.
Consider that our souls are an energy that is not bound by time or space, able to blend with other energies that go on and on, with no ending and no beginning (I am the Alpha and Omega); these are being explored with Unified Field Theory and Super String Theory scientfically. If you decide this is true, how could you condemn any part of that Unified Soul to damnation without destroying the whole?
Science and spirituality have been telling us that we souls will impact life with the power of gods. And all you gotta do is admit that at our core humans all want the same thing.
I’m not out to convert anyone either, just humbly encouraging them to think outside the box a little bit, and that it is no sin to do so, given our free will and intelligence. If you’re so convinced that there is only one way to think about God, I wonder why you’re still engaging me here, unless it’s to try to humiliate me intellectually; if so, you’ll have to do better than Kumbaya…
By Jorge
May 12, 2005 05:05 PM | Link to this
I’m 100% with Diane on this one. This girl is a spoiled brat who had absolutely no regard for the potential consequences of her actions, not only for her, but for everyone else. Sorry, Shaunti, but your “love & forgiveness” line is out of play here. No one is trying to send her to the electric chair; we just want to see some legal consequence for BREAKING THE LAW. This wasn’t some spur of the moment flip out of temporary insanity, this was a planned act of stupidity. Since when are people absolved from consequences just because they have “issues”? Is stealing any less wrong because you really really need what you’re stealing? No, but this girl wasted law enforcement’s time and our tax money. Make her do some community service.
By Ben
May 13, 2005 08:07 AM | Link to this
Crystal, I don’t have to “verify” a topic to provoke conversation. The fact that the document surfaced along with the content of the document, doubled by the interest of 80 Congressmen, very well qualifies it as something to consider.
But if I am to learn something from you on this, I guess I can take away that all of you Christians are wrong. The BIBLE is an unverified source that Chrisitians all consider. And in keeping with that, the Bible is propoganda. “Propaganda is spread through suggestions to influence people.”
Or does that argument only apply to calling the President out. Liberals don’t need to go to Washington to give the Democrats new ideas. The Conservatives are making a**es of themselves just fine. The people will see them for what they are as we continue to lose jobs, watch the economy crumble and let war bankrupt us morally and financially.
By Lola
May 13, 2005 08:08 AM | Link to this
Good morning, everyone!
I just read the extent to which Jennifer Wilbanks lied, down to the vulgar details of how she was “sexually assaulted” in the van with “no foreplay”. What a sicko. And she apparently befriended an hispanic man and a white woman on the bus, and decided to follow them to vegas and then albequerque. So she then took the descriptions of the two people she supposedly befriended and turned that into the description of her “abductors and rapists”? What kind of a mental midget is this girl? I’m glad she’s in nut house - it’s where she belongs. I don’t think she should have to do any jail time, but I do think she should have to pay back all monetary expenses that were used on finding her, even if she didn’t ask to be looked for. She had to know that it would happen - ESPECIALLY with the past cases of Laci Peterson and Laurie Hacking being so fresh in the news.
I also think it’s sad that this kind of publicity isn’t used to find EVERY person who goes missing, no matter what their skin color or financial status. And it is a good illustration of the double standard that still exists here, which is a little disturbing. If anyone should have stayed “lost”, it’s her!
By Ben
May 13, 2005 08:12 AM | Link to this
Maybe Jennifer just wanted some, “what happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas.” What if she just wanted to sew some oats and the sexual assault was really her last hoorah!
By Lola
May 13, 2005 08:21 AM | Link to this
I guess what I find most disturbing is the premeditation of all this. She bought her bus ticket DAYS before this, so she obviously had planned it well ahead of time. That’s not the spontaneous breakdown that I originally thought she’d had, and that brings my level of pity for her down to non-existant. If she had days to plan this, she had days to talk to someone and work out some of her “issues”. I think she’s an attention whore and inside she’s enjoying all the publicity, even if it’s bad.
On a lighter note, ebay has a TON of Jennifer Wilbanks stuff up for auction, and some of it is hysterical. People have actually burned a piece of toast and they scraped a face into it and are selling as “jennifer wilbanks appeared on my toast”. There’s also an action figure coming out with bug eyes and a striped colored towel that you put over her head. There are some real comedians out there! :)
By norman
May 13, 2005 08:30 AM | Link to this
Jack: hope you do a lot of penance for having voted for warmongering Bush in 04. I voted for him in 00 but I have repented and will no longer consider the Republican Party as anything better than an American version of fascism.
By norman
May 13, 2005 08:33 AM | Link to this
Pope Ratzi has just put John Paul II on a fast track to sainthood. For another side of this sordid story read the current issue of Vanity Fair where John Cornwell describes how weird John Paul really was.
And Boscoe, don’t bother to tell me you don’t like Cornwell. Why should you? He wrote about how Pius XII before his election destroyed the last bastion of Germans vs. Hitler, the Catholic Center Party. He was indeed Hitler’s Pope.
By norman
May 13, 2005 08:37 AM | Link to this
Congratulations to Connecticut for executing a serial killer. I did not think they had it in them.
By Lola
May 13, 2005 08:43 AM | Link to this
I don’t know if I would describe Bush as a “warmongerer” as norman did, but I am certainly very bothered by his lack of priority when it comes to securing our borders from illegal aliens. I read this morning that the Arizona Boarder Patrol has been ordered to stand-down, and make sure that they don’t arrest too many illegals, or else it would show that the Minutemen Project was successful. How can you even argue whether or not it was successful? It was a HUGE success! I really resent this willingness to keep letting millions of illegals come over here with no way to track them or check them for criminal records. For someone so dedicated to fighting terrorism, it just seems very odd to me that he shows no inclination for securing our borders. That said, I still think he’s the best man to run our country. I just disagree with his immigration stance.
By Boscoe
May 13, 2005 08:45 AM | Link to this
Lozen/Sandy from yesterday…What this amounts to is the U.N. trying to create a one world religion. Lozen you think Christianity is so horrible? When I went to the Millennium Summit in New York, the big word on everyone’s lips, as it has been for the past several years, is “empowerment” … “empowering” … “empower”. That’s the word you hear. They are talking about empowering the United Nations with vast legislative, judicial and executive powers, backed up by military and police force. Ultimately what they are trying to create is a global legislative body with a for-real military to back it up. With the executive, and now with the push on for the International Criminal Court, a full judiciary that claims jurisdiction over individuals – not just the World Court for adjudicating disputes. The goal of world peace has been sought by religious leaders, philanthropists and philosophers alike throughout the centuries. However, for a decade there has been a resurgence among postmodern scholars and liberal theologians to try to achieve that goal through religious partnerships, even unification. The peace summit is their latest attempt to gain legitimacy at an international level with hopes of securing U.N. funding and endorsement.The question of tolerance is a central issue for those aligned with the peace summit and its objectives. Summit organizers say religious and spiritual groups need to realize what they believe is part of a greater wisdom and not unique to them. Is that what they were telling those young girls while they were raping them? Is that what they were telling people while they were lining their pockets with cash during the oil-for-food scam? There is no God in their religion telling you to Love your neighbor. Christianity is bad? Wait til you try this one.
By Lola
May 13, 2005 08:45 AM | Link to this
I agree with you about Connecticut, norman. It’s about time. Didn’t he commit those murders TWENTY years ago? I mean, come on. Surely it couldn’t have taken 20 years to determine that he did murder those people and that he should die for it. I do find it pretty shocking that a north eastern state carried out an execution, but then I’m from Texas and we don’t really hesitate when it comes to ridding the world of the bad guys. :)
By norman
May 13, 2005 08:50 AM | Link to this
Ben: I get the impression that you agree, with respect to the bible “it ain’t necessarily so.”
By Ben
May 13, 2005 08:57 AM | Link to this
Yes Norman, there is something we possibly agree on. I have my doubts.
By norman
May 13, 2005 09:01 AM | Link to this
Boscoe: you don’t love your neighbor either. Stop playing the pharisee.
By Boscoe
May 13, 2005 09:01 AM | Link to this
Norman< I have already given you details from historic documents showing Pope Pius XII denounced the Third Reich. You still insist on perpetuating lies. So does John Cornwell. He says it is NOT an article of faith that Catholics believe they are eating the Body of Christ. He’s wrong! It is an article of faith. So much for the so called expert on the Vatican. This miricle is not suspect as John claims. I have mentioned this very one on this blog before. The claims of the “Flesh” and “Blood” being in a state of decay is false as well. I’ve been there and seen it myself. He is one of the greatest Popes in history if not the greatest.
By Jack
May 13, 2005 09:14 AM | Link to this
We’re all doing penance Norman. Don’t worry, the republicans have blown it by trying to get into our personal lives. Hillary will probably be the next pres.. at least she says she will address the border issue. Pretty sorry that we have to have citizens doing the job on the border that the govt. is supposed to do. Capital punishment should be done 30 days after conviction. Nichols should already be toast.
By Bruce
May 13, 2005 09:15 AM | Link to this
Sandy,
I get the undersatanding that you suggest a religious regime change in several of your post from yesterday. Here is just the first one.
“Suppose, instead of invoking God as the moral absolute, we substituted functionality, that is, what works and what doesn’t work for all of humankind.”
We as human-beings search for a higher understanding. That understanding cannot come from us and embraced by all simply because of our own selfish wants. Even in organized religion there is not an agreement on what the scripture says because we all understand God’s word to meet our own wants. But if we read, study, pray and meditate a better understanding can be abtained. I for one do not rely totally on what I hear from my preacher, sunday school teacher or any others without verifing it to what God’s word says, then praying over it and asking for the Holy Spirits guidence. This conversation was prayed over last night.
I have enjoyed this conversation but feel it should end here. I am sure we will talk again but for now lets end it before feelings get hurt, and wrong things are said. I apologize if you felt I was questioning your intellect. That was not my purpose. All I am trying to say is your idea of spirituality seem somewhat of a dream more than something that would give someone hope because of it complexity. It sounds great but because people are so selfish it could never work.
By Lola
May 13, 2005 09:21 AM | Link to this
Jack - I agree with you 100% on the exectution issue, as well as the border issue. But I also think that if Hillary does run as the Democrat candidate in 2008, the turn-out of Republican voters will be so enormous that there’s no way the Dems will win the election. She’s a very polarizing figure for people on the right, and the Democrats would be better off picking someone a little closer to center, who would be able to take away some of the conservative votes. It would be political suicide for the liberals to put her up there as their candidate, and would only guarantee another loss for them in the polls. I do think it would be a very intersting campaign, though. And depending on who the Republicans put on the block as their candidate, it could be an extremely close call. I do wish the mud-slinging weren’t such a big part of campaigning. That got really old in the 2004 election and it’s going to start up again for the 2006 senate elections. I love politics but that is my least favorite part.
By Lola
May 13, 2005 09:26 AM | Link to this
Bruce - I agree with you. Discussions of religion always lead to someone getting angry or insulted, because the views held by everyone are so varied and different, you are hard-pressed to find a group who will agree on everything. I find it better to simply stay out of those religious arguments and theories, and keep my relationship with God as a personal and closely-held bond between Him and me. Nobody owes anyone else an explanation of why they feel and believe the way they do. We’re all entitled to believe or not believe, but we’re not entitled to judge others based on which they choose to do. Freedom of religion or non-religion is a very important thing.
By Jack
May 13, 2005 09:36 AM | Link to this
Lola, to bad they can’t talk Sam Nunn into running. He’s too smart to want that job.
By Sandy/Sanhan
May 13, 2005 09:43 AM | Link to this
Boscoe, I have no idea what your’e talking about. Summit organizers were raping young girls?
As far as Christianity being bad, sure, the parts of Christianity that promote human separation and subsequent suffering do not work toward the expressed goal of that religion. (If you could clarify that goal, I’d appreciate it). The goal of the religion (or any religion) is not necessarily the goal of humanity.
Yesterday Bruce said that he does not feel connected to the rest of the world or its religions. (I’m sure he’ll correct me if I’ve misstated this and I invite him to do so). The idea I was trying to convey is that at our most basic, all human beings have similar wants and needs. Food, clothing, shelter, love, security, (and in my case, an occasional beer). These are the needs that create religion in the first place. Why is it so hard to imagine that that we are all connected by our needs?
At some point we have imagined that there is not enough of these things to go around, so we form groups and societies to help provide them. At another point we have imagined that power is more effective when there are rules, etc.
At some other points all hell broke loose and some of us decided that we were better than others, that we deserved more, so we sucked God into the debate, and now commit horrible and mind-boggling atrocities in the name of God.
I find myself in the position that I do not knowingly want to participate in these atrocities, and yet, as a citizen of my country, I’m there anyway. If I speak against them, I’m a liberal traitor. If I expand the concept of unconditional love to the rest of the planet, I’m seen to hate America and am perceived as “the problem with this country.”
The point I am trying to make is that individuals need to listen to their consciences and rethink their relationships with others, God, and with organized religion, to get back to understanding the basics: We all have needs. There is enough to go around for our survival. We are evolving; evolution is the joy of humanity to reach realms previously unknown if we simply broaden our definition of self to include all of humanity. It is simply my observation that organized religion is not providing the planet with what it needs to survive currently, and it’s creating divisions that result in crimes against humanity, and vice versa.
And Bruce is right. If he (or we) can’t make unity part of our personal value system, peace will never be realized at a personal or international level.
Buddha said something to the effect of not believing something simply because it is found in your holy books, but because upon reflection it is seen to benefit most people and reflects accurately who you are.
I would add that positive change will come to us as individuals and groups, not because it is forced upon us through religion or politics, but more likely because it has not.
By norman
May 13, 2005 09:56 AM | Link to this
While John Bolton has no more reason to be our UN ambassador than Boscoe, perhaps he should be approved. His behavior at the UN would be so provocative and outrageous that perhaps enough nations would vote for a US regime change. We need a regime change — this would be an unusual method but any method of de-Bushifying America would be ok with me.
By Sandy/Sanhan
May 13, 2005 09:56 AM | Link to this
Thanks Bruce, I’ve enjoyed the discussion, too. No offense taken. (Kumbayah was an apparently poor attempt at humor). I offer this stuff as a step in the right direction, not as doctrine. But, as sappy as it sounds, I believe in the power of dreaming, that reality starts out as a dream and at some point manifests itself. The funny thing is, I’m actually pretty cynical about many things in life, but not this. I pray for my heart to unclench a little every day…
Besides, if Hillary Clinton and Newt Gingrich can work together and find some common ground, it’s a sure sign of hope and the apocalypse at the same time…
Namaste.
By LaShelle
May 13, 2005 10:00 AM | Link to this
Dear God, Hell must have frozen over because I KIND OF, just kind of agree with norman
By Sandy/Sanhan
May 13, 2005 10:01 AM | Link to this
Bruce—Sorry, should have read, my Kumbayah comment was a poor attempt at humor. Oy. Gotta proofread myself.
And by the way, I find it frankly touching that you prayed over this.
By Jack
May 13, 2005 10:08 AM | Link to this
The United Nations is a corrupt useless organization and should be moved to France.
By Jack
May 13, 2005 10:20 AM | Link to this
Sandy/Sanhan, you didn’t know that Hillary and newt were sleeping together? LOL
By Crystal
May 13, 2005 10:27 AM | Link to this
Ben, you have served our country well. I don’t doubt your motives. But I believe that “trashing” the president on any and every issue, as is done now by liberals, is not the way to support or improve our country. Discussions? Yes. Flimsy accusations? No!
As to the Bible, it has been verified for centuries as a religious icon. So has the Koran. How people receive them is individual choice.
The only thing you will learn from me is how much I love this country, I can’t understand those who don’t seem to care and take their freedoms so flippantly. Fortunately, we still have the freedom to make good or bad choices as these blogs clearly indicate.
By Bruce
May 13, 2005 10:31 AM | Link to this
Sandy,
I am a frim believer in prayer. In matters of spirituality one must seek guidence and I seek mine through prayer. It helps me deal with so many daily situtations I cannot count them. After reading your post late yesterday I was troubled to think I had offended you so I did the only thing I knew to do. I thank you for your insite, although I disagree, I respect you for your honesty and passion.
Eveyone please have a blessed weekend and I’ll see you next week.
By Jack
May 13, 2005 10:34 AM | Link to this
Crystal, very good post. I agree. We live in the BEST country on God’s green Earth and anyone who doesn’t think so…Delta is ready when they are! (stole that from the late Lewis Grizzard)
By Lola
May 13, 2005 10:44 AM | Link to this
You’re right, Jack. And unfortunately, the personal scrutiny and skeleton-in-closet digging that is done for any person who runs for office will ensure that many, many qualified people will decline to run. We want good candidates, yet we are more than willing to indulge in the media’s game of dirt slinging and shady journalism, which does nothing but encourage them to continue that behavior. We shoot ourselves in the foot that way.
By Lola
May 13, 2005 10:56 AM | Link to this
Political arguments have unfortunately more often than not become nothing but name-calling and childish, with nodoby from either side listening to eachother anymore, only reacting with negativity and pooh-poohing ideas before they are even heard. I don’t doubt that people on both sides of the aisle love their country, but they definitely love it in different ways. Some love it exactly the way it is, warts and all, and some love it for what they wish it would become, resentful of the way it is now. My only problem is with people who don’t love it at all, and want to change everything about it - people who want the USA to be a weaker nation, both economically and militarily, and are willing to relenquish our way of life in order to mirror a more socialist and european government style. We live in the greatest country in the world, and I don’t understand why anyone would want to change that.
By Lola
May 13, 2005 11:02 AM | Link to this
The U.N. is great in concept, but the reality is that the current organization is dishonest, often very anti-American and, considering all the details that have emerged about the U.N. “peace keepers” going around Congo and raping, impregnating and/or spreading AIDS along to women and young girls there, not to mention the food-for-oil program and the billions of dollars that were used as pay-offs from Saddam for U.N. officials, it is not only an irrelevant body but a harmful one. It is no great mystery now why so many people in the U.N. were opposed to briging down Saddam. He was their Sugar Daddy.
The U.N. would be better off if it were completely dismantled and rebuilt from scratch. The concept of the U.N. is a noble one, but the reality of it has strayed so far from that concept that it is now nothing but a big joke. Bolton is just the man to have in there. He is not a “yes man” and will call them like he sees them, whether or not that is the politically correct thing to do.
By Jack
May 13, 2005 11:08 AM | Link to this
The UN hates us but who contributes most? We do. Lola you forgot to mention the abuse of diplomatic immunity by their members. Let France have them.
By Boscoe
May 13, 2005 11:12 AM | Link to this
Sandy, parts of Christianity that promote human separation and subsequent suffering do not work toward the expressed goal of that religion.? What parts promote that? What is the expressed goal that religion? Give some details please.
By Ben
May 13, 2005 11:15 AM | Link to this
Being an icon doesn’t make it factual though Crystal, it is only a sign that “suggests” its meaning. Just like the document suggests that something wasn’t kosher with invading Iraq.
I’m not trashing anyone. But being a follower doesn’t mean you put your head down and follow blindly. I love my country, love it enough that I fought for it. HOWEVER, I refuse to follow someone who is leading me astray. I’ll use the old addage my mother used, if your friends jumped off the bridge would you follow? Sometimes you have to question the decisions that are supposedly made for you. And I believe that ability to question and raise flags when necessary IS what makes this country what it is.
I don’t take my freedom or the luxury of being an American for granted. I just see that there are issues “at home” that greatly outweight what we are doing right now. I call it the Malcolm X approach.
By kimberly
May 13, 2005 11:21 AM | Link to this
Ben, you ROCK! Well said. Blind faith in bad leadership is NOT patriotic!
By LaShelle
May 13, 2005 11:23 AM | Link to this
Great post Ben! We have the right and sometimes an obligation to question our leaders. If we can’t do that, then we may as well turn into Cuba. Freedom of speech is one of our beloved individual rights and I personally will use it to question whomever I please, including our President. So tell me this if he said the sky was green would you question him then?
By Lyrazel
May 13, 2005 11:25 AM | Link to this
Skeleton in closet digging is PART of a politicians life and shady deals come into sunshine thanks to that digging, investigation and questioning of the judgments of persons we put in office. Its a lot of power and money we entrust to politicians from mayor to president—and rubes there are plenty—as well as earnest and committed women and men. I think with so much power, money, lives and welfare of Americans put into these politicians hands—checking closets, looking up records, finding double-deal investigations is more a necessity than ever.
Would say a country is more free is the one who can defrock and deface the powerful than the countries that blindly accepts. However, our country is prone to celebrity politician gossip but cannot find interest in voting in local and state elections…
As far as the re-surgence of Newt—well—he doesnt have a job now. If Hillary is smart, she will ignore any election attempts. She will be very strong as incumbent democratic senator—as some of the old guard and bush-coat tail republicans will be gone.
By Vince
May 13, 2005 11:31 AM | Link to this
Does having love for our country excuse shuffling ugliness under the rug? My parents love me, and as a child, they made me aware of accomplishments, good deeds, good jestures as well as pointing out moments not so good. Granted I hated hearing about failures, but thank God they loved me enough to teach me how not to do the same mistakes over.
So, I am sickened every time “America Loving” folks dismiss any critique of our government and write it off as merely “a non God lovin’, Merican’ hatin’ pinko.”
So, just to be clear, to avoid being accused of “another liberal makin’ up stuff”, I will now reference information provided to us by the OFFICIAL WHITE HOUSE and FEDERAL GOVERNMENT websites.
President Bush NEVER served combat military time. In fact, neither did CHeney, Rumsfeld, Rove, etc.
Military recruitment is dagerously low and a draft is being considered.
Last night, Bush quietly signed the Fed ID law. (If that doesn’t frighten the hell out of you….)
When addressing a group of people in Oct. 2001, he is quoted on the Whitehouse website as saying,”I was watchin’ the tv set out in the hall and saw the first plane fly into the WTC, and thought, that’s a bad pilot.” (Do I have to explain that? Are you mad that is something I am not making up?)
Folks, loving our country means facing harsh realities from time to time. Right now, so many young men and women have been killed or crippled in Iraq. That is sickening, but part of war. However, nobody has claimed accountability for the deaths of our people, the Iraqi people, and the billions of dollars wasted on that war; due to the fact no WMD’s were ever found.
Rice was promoted. Rice was promoted. Where I work, if you are in charge of a division that screws up to such damaging levels, you get fired.
The federal government went from a 2 trillion dollar surplus when BUsh took office, to a 5 trillion dollar deficit before re-election. The Dept. of Treasury released that report TWO HOURS after Bush’s second coronation. Where did all that money go? After all, Bush and Cheney reminded us over and over during the debates that the War in Iraq only cost about 120 million, or billion, I don’t think they knew for sure.
By the end of the third year of Bush, Sr.’s term, he held over 70 press conferences. Dumbya? Six.
Dumbya has thanked the military for their hard work so many times, and very quietly has reduced their pay, benefits and pension funds. Budgetary problems I guess. Dumbya had a C average in college. The US Army said Tuesday Haliburton got a 72 million bonus. Cool. I wonder how many people at Haliburton lost their lives in Iraq?
The FDA, you know that group of smart folks that keep releasing and then recalling medication that kills, has decided its once again ok for women to have breast implants. Why the sudden change? Think. They also will not let gay men donate sperm. That is too classic for words. Sperm doesn’t know the orientation of its carrier. It does know and understand monogamy. THINK.
The list is so long…
Clinton used a cigar as a foreplay device and is impeached. Bush has been in charge and seen people killed in Iraq, gone through trillions with no explanation, and am I a non-lover of America not to ask why?
Quote from Theodore Roosevelt -
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. Nothing but the truth should be spoken about him or any one else. But it is even more important to tell the truth, pleasant or unpleasant, about him than about any one else.”
By norman
May 13, 2005 11:34 AM | Link to this
Crystal: you say the bible and the Koran have been verified. What on earth do you mean? These collections of semitic wisdom cannot be verified in any way. They are like novels.They may contain wisdom but wisdom can be verified without resort to god or gods or godesses.
By norman
May 13, 2005 11:37 AM |