MOMania

By Gail

February 9, 2009 6:34 AM | Link to this

are you aware the way you have this set up…that only people who belong to the NURSES GROUP CAN POST A COMMENT? Several of us have noticed this.

By Gail

February 9, 2009 6:45 AM | Link to this

We don’t need nurses at school. If a kid is sick, he needs to go home. The libality insurance must be off the charts!

By jawjadoug

February 9, 2009 7:08 AM | Link to this

Get you head out of the sand Gail…who is the one going to make the call when a chid in scholl falls ill and a determination needs to be made on how critical the situation is? an unskilled professional? The liability issues with our schools goes up when a first responder disappears from the staff. Look for parents suing the school system for not providing adequate care for a child during an emergency.

By catlady

February 9, 2009 7:10 AM | Link to this

Teresa, I think school nurses are terrific, if we can afford them. My experience with ours is quite different from yours. On a busy day, ours sees 30 or so kids (630 kids in school). Most are for earaches, headaches, etc. We have one insulin dependent diabetic, and a half dozen with asthma. We also have a few medically fragile kids, and one with a previously severe allergy. She does some triage, but she misses a fair bit and so we have sick or infectious or even buggy (skin mites—she doesn’t miss lice) kids staying at school infecting the rest of us. She says absent vomiting or temp over 101 she cannot send them home, which results in many sick kids still at school. This is counterproductive because of the way illnesses spread.

I liked the old days when I could call parents directly as tell them the symptoms, give them my “momma” opinion in borderline cases.

However, I wonder: with a nurse we are almost guaranteeing adequate care and therefore assuming more liability in case of a lawsuit. But I would prefer not being the adult in charge (I have several times in the past before school nurses) in the case of a severe problem. I want the kid in that case to have a trained person to assume care.

Our supt says they cost us about $60,000 each per year with the state picking up about a third.

Because of the way our schools are located (and I think this would be even more true in suburbia) we could share nurses between 2 schools and have office staff learn to apply bandages.

I’d rather have nurses than those danged electronic white boards, or more rennovation to the stadium or (more comparably) teachers who don’t teach but just consult with us on how to serve special ed kids!

By motherjanegoose

February 9, 2009 7:33 AM | Link to this

Gail…open your eyes here…in a perfect world, if a child is sick they would not be sent to school.

In today’s world, Mom and Dad are both working and they cannot find childcare so they load the kids up with Tylenol and stick them on the bus.

Twelve years ago, I had one vomit red ..I was so worried. Took her too the office and after a chat…we were told that Mommy gave her Tylenol since she had a fever and would not eat her breakfast….HELLO!

Wake up call…those of you who have quick answers need to spend a week inside ANY school and then get back to us.

Just like those who do not live in Atlanta and tell me, “the traffic can’t be THAT bad can it?”

I am interested in Catlady’s idea of sharing…would that be half day? I do not know the answers here but YES we need a nurse in the building.

Barry Morse…are we using this blog to advertise products now? I was unaware….did I miss something while I was in Houston, TX?

By JohnsCreekMOM

February 9, 2009 7:42 AM | Link to this

I think we are all not seeing the bigger issue; they want to increase class size and yet want the teacher to take care of sick kids also? This impacts every child in the class, not just the sick one. I can’t wait for the first time a child starts vomiting profusely in a classroom and then what? They have to remain there until a parent comes???? Sometimes a parent doesn’t show up for an hour or so. How does a teacher “teach” while a child is vomiting in the corner, or is having a seizure, or needs an epipen, or needs an inhaler????? I can go on but I think you get the drift. Even if the nurse if half way inadequate, that person is there, takes the child out of the classroom and calls mom. That is what is needed. There must be at least five children I know in our school with diabetes, countless get allergy meds, ADHD, and alot of epipens. Who is in charge of all this medication? All these reactions? The principal, the secretary, the janitor??? I can’t even imagine the cost of this one individual being any where near $60,000 for one school, if that is what catlady was saying. I know they do not make more than $22,000. Before any of these cuts are made, I want to know just WHO is responsible for these sick kids and where will they be “housed” while waiting for mom and getting help. I don’t want an extremely sick child in my child’s classroom vomiting or feverish while waiing for mom. They need to be laying down in the nurse’s offce getting some TLC. All I know, I wouldn’t want to be a teacher today for all the money in the world. God Bless the teachers of the world!!!!!

By Jeff

February 9, 2009 7:54 AM | Link to this

I think there needs to be some reasonable standard set,. and honestly I don’t see that reasonable standard at one nurse in every school.

I tend to favor catlady’s 1 nurse to 2 schools approach, but even then I wouldn’t set it as a strict standard but instead apply some form of student/nurse ratio. Off the top of my head, I would propose a 3K-4K:1 ratio, but I could be willing to move that number slightly in the face of a persuasive argument either way.

This would mean that in larger systems, you might spread a single nurse over half a dozen ES level schools, but only 2 or 3 MS level and have essentially a dedicated nurse at the HS level. Based on what I personally saw both as a student and as a teacher, I would think this is appropriate. ES kids/parents/teachers tend to freak out about every little thing, while HS level nurse trips tend to in fact be more serious issues. (Though even at this level, kids are known to overreact. Teachers/parents tend not to as much at this level though.)

By Steve

February 9, 2009 7:57 AM | Link to this

When i was in school all the “school nurse” ever did was put bandaids on and take someones temperature. I dont think a school needs and RN on staff to do that. Maybe and LPN but definitely not an RN. Heck, a CNA would be fine too. Its ridiculous paying a RN 50 plus K a year to work at a school.

By Concerned oldtimer

February 9, 2009 7:58 AM | Link to this

You forgot to mention all the serious drugs some kids take today. These can be for all sorts of illnesses and mental illnesses. These are drugs that need to be locked up and carefully monitored, not in a teacher’s desk. And at my school the nurse does four tube feedings!!

By lulu

February 9, 2009 8:00 AM | Link to this

I don’t think I would feel any safer if my child was an a school with a nurse as opposed to without one. It’s nice to know that there is someone with medical training at my child’s school, but I wouldn’t worry too much if it wasn’t there.

I grew up in GA public schools, and never went to a school with a nurse. Sick kids were sent to the office, where parents were called and the kid could lie down until the parents arrived. It worked just fine.

By momtoAlex&Max

February 9, 2009 8:00 AM | Link to this

I’m trying to figure out how the nurse sharing thing would work. Have the nurse driving around 3 or 4 schools all day chasing down the emergencies? Spend 2hrs here, 2 hrs there? I’m not sure at all how that would work.

My bet is that when they cut the nurses, they will demand EVEN MORE parent volunteers to man the clinic. People that have even less training that the teacher. What a nightmare. I’m so sick of this, no pun intended. I am tired of schools being nickeled and dimmed to death. Why don’t we cut the salaries of the grossly overpaid and underworked administrators??????

By MOT

February 9, 2009 8:16 AM | Link to this

Teresa, I hope you will print and mail everything you said above to the legislators, you say it very well with documented cases of how things are done. In fact, you should send the blog itself with folks support of the need for school nurses. It would be a great tool to help the cause!

By Atlanta Native

February 9, 2009 8:19 AM | Link to this

Why do we need nurses at school? I just wonder how all of us made it through 12 years of school and 4 years of college without a nurse. Nurses see over 300 kids a day because they are accessible to the kids. Are you saying that over 300 kids are sick, hurt or having emergency situations everyday. I am a paramedic and I have been called to schools for small lacerations, hiccups (yes hiccups), fever of 101, and “oh, he slipped and fell and we just wanted him checked out.” Well what the hell do you want me to check???? Nurses are a luxury we can no longer afford. If we keep taking the place of parents soon the school will be raising our children from the age of 4 through 18. Why don’t we just let them stay overnight and let the school parent them totally. Jeeez if you people don’t want to raise children and be responsible for them then don’t have them.

By ptcmom678

February 9, 2009 8:19 AM | Link to this

The school nurses today are absolutely essential, especially in middle and elementary schools, ESPECIALLY in this day of zero tolerance. Do you know how many kids today take meds? Do you really want the front office staff (that is also being cut) having to keep track of a hundred or more kids medicine schedule along with all the other administrative tasks? Or the teacher in an increasing classroom?
Barry Morse - the unnecessarily long, off the topic post just ensures I will never look at your website. Just an FYI

By motherjanegoose

February 9, 2009 8:27 AM | Link to this

Atlanta Native…we had school nurses when I was in school…40 years ago!

Check out this link:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/painter/2008-09-14-your-health_N.htm

By motherjanegoose

February 9, 2009 8:38 AM | Link to this

Oooops…I forgot to mention that with so many children not having access to health insurance…the school nurse may be the ONLY health care professional that can spot a real dilemma. Out the door…

By FCM

February 9, 2009 8:57 AM | Link to this

Most of you know I am a libertarian at heart/soul.

However, with today’s dicussion I want to point out that under the Sentate version of the Stimiulus Package….Education took a huge hit—-nutrition, special ed, Head Start, etc….IF some of that does not go back it seems sure that Para-Pros (which we need more of not less on the ES level) and Nurses will be gone soon.

I have already written Isackson and Chambliss (and I am sure my school would be shocked to know that)….and let them know my view. I encourage you to do the same.

By ConcernedNurse

February 9, 2009 8:57 AM | Link to this

It is very obvious that a lot of people are making comments that do not truly know what is going on in the world of School Nursing. First of all I would love to know which school nurse is making over 50k. I am a school nurse and well lets just say public servant work does not pay that well. As a parent I do not want a teacher, secretary or parent volunteer making decisions in regards to a fever, severe cut or asthma. Without a school nurse our emergency responders will be flooded. Most teachers cannot stand the sight of vomit. School nurses are not working for the school system to get rich. I think we should look at the other expenditures such as graduation coaches in the 7th grade or translators that are assigned to just one school. Just for information the ratio is one nurse to approx 700 kids. In the hospital it is 1 nurse to 10 patients. You do the math!

By Atlanta Native

February 9, 2009 8:59 AM | Link to this

Motherjane….I checked the link that you posted. Please don’t get me wrong. I have dedicated my life to public service, I am 62 years old and still put in 70 hour weeks helping others. It’s what we do. With that said, I saw nothing in that nurse’s day that should have been handled by the school system. All those problems should have been addressed by the parents. We, as a society, are neglicting our children by passing off responsibilities that parents should have that we now pass on to others in society. When I was young I was taken care of by my parents and both my parents worked, so that lame excuse that both parents are working doesn’t fly with me. My kids are my responsibility.My wife and I knew what our responsibilities were when we decided to have children. I hate to see anyone lose their job, but if the school nurses are RN’s then I can promise you that they will have no trouble finding a job. Just food for thought.

By Pamela

February 9, 2009 8:59 AM | Link to this

I say keep all school nurses. People who are posting that schools should get rid of them OBVIOUSLY DON’T OR CAN’T HAVE CHILDREN!

School nurses are very important to keep. I had a school nurse when I went to school.

Crawford Lewis should cut HIS SALARY in half!

By Jeff

February 9, 2009 9:00 AM | Link to this

MJG:

And how is it the responsibility of the STATE to ensure that kids have insurance?

Answer: It is NOT the responsibility of the State, but instead of the parent to ensure that their kids have insurance.

By Ginger

February 9, 2009 9:02 AM | Link to this

Gail, my daughter has asthma. At times, she has to see the school nurse to help her administer her medication. Her condition is not contagious and does not require her to leave the school, she just needs help with treatment. Without the school nurse to treat her, she would miss about 1/2 the school year. Also, I have spoken to several teachers who informed me that if the school nurses are removed, their solution to an asthma attack my daughter may have would be to call 911 and waste precious time waiting for paramedics to treat her while she is starving for oxygen. Not a good solution. You are a jerk.

By tennis queen

February 9, 2009 9:03 AM | Link to this

I am a school nurse and a RN. I do not make anywhere near $60,000/year. That is a joke! LPN’s and CNA’s under their practice act can not give certain medications, O2 or provide certain treatments. I am also in charge of employee health.

By motherjanegoose

February 9, 2009 9:11 AM | Link to this

Jeff…you are absolutely correct but being correct does not solve the problem.
There are very sick children out there who are heading off to school and teachers cannot teach when they are sick. I guess we could park them all in one big room until their parents show up…after work!

Atlanta Native, I also agree with you 100%! This is how my husband and I feel. Have you been inside an elementary school lately…it is scary…even in the “good” neighborhoods.

If only everyone else did…we would not be having this discussion.

I do NOT have the answers but have met with teachers in 46 states and all parents being responsible for their children is a thing of the past. How can we make them accountable…. suggestions that would work are certainly welcome.

Have any of you ever been shopping when the announcement is made… “parents…please do not let your children roam the store and play under the racks…please keep them with you at all times…”

THIS SHOULD NOT HAVE TO BE SAID ON THE P.A. SYSTEM…PARENTS SHOULD KNOW IT.

Recent favorite…a child with those skate shoes rolling between the tables at a restaurant while waiters are carrying trays of food…WHAT? WHERE ARE THE PARENTS????

I am OUT the door or I will be late LOL! Look forward to reading when I get home.

By doug

February 9, 2009 9:18 AM | Link to this

Either cut out nurses or cut their pay. Your sick brat is not my responsibility. I’m tired of paying taxes because you skanks keep spitting out rugrats

By TuckerDad

February 9, 2009 9:18 AM | Link to this

I went to school in DeKalb County and neither my elementary nor my high school had a nurse. If a child was sick, the teacher sent the student to the office and the parents were notified. It was no big deal.

By williebkind

February 9, 2009 9:19 AM | Link to this

How about a nurse on call who is working at the hospital? I do not need to pay for other sick children because I have the all the illegal aliens to pay for at this time.

By No taxes = no services

February 9, 2009 9:22 AM | Link to this

No one in this state ever wants to pay for schools, but is surprised when service is cut. Public school is not “free.” Taxes pay for them. I think nurses are good, but the budget has to balance.

By MommaBear22

February 9, 2009 9:27 AM | Link to this

As a mother of a child with food allergies and asthma, I cannot imagine there not being a trained professional onsite to deal with medical emergencies that do happen. I don’t want to hope a teacher or school administrator knows how and when to administer an epipen - I want an experience RN who will not be afaid to use it. Yes - there are plenty of irresponsible parents who send sick kids to school just so they don’t have to dissrupt their schedule, but that doesn’t mean that other kids should suffer when emergenies arise. And do you think those irresponsible parents will suddenly stop sending their sick kids to school just because there is no nurse there? I would much prefer to see less money spent on free breakfasts and lunches for kids. I realize a hungry child does not learn as well, but the responsibility of feeding kids clearly lies with the parents. Lets put that responsibility back where it belongs. There is clearly a lot of wasted dollars there that could easily be cut.

By deidre_NC

February 9, 2009 9:29 AM | Link to this

plus if 911 is to be the ‘new school nurse’ who is going to foot that bill? they DO charge when an ambulance comes on a call. i hate seeing all the cuts for the schools-and hate the fact that the schools are taking the huge cut being left out of the new stimulous. its really scary whats going on in our country.

By sd

February 9, 2009 9:30 AM | Link to this

I am not even sure if my son’s school has a nurse, but I hope that they do. Not for sniffles, but rather and emergency like a nasty fall or in case a child needs cpr or is choking.

You say that parents should be responsible for their kid’s own health, and I agree to a point. But if my kid chokes in the lunch room, I hope someone there knows what to do.

By AJC agenda sucks

February 9, 2009 9:32 AM | Link to this

My god, how did we all survive without school nurses?

So where’s the link to a petition to eliminate school nurses? Or are we to assume this article, like so many other AJC articles is biased and attempting to sway public opinon to fulfill the papers agenda?

By TuckerDad

February 9, 2009 9:36 AM | Link to this

Couldn’t the school systems pay for access to a nurse hotline or maybe staff 2-3 nurses centrally? Would be cheaper and maybe satisfy worried parents?

By Barbara

February 9, 2009 9:40 AM | Link to this

My Daughter is a Type 1 Diabetic and I won’t be happy letting someone else gaves her shots, and to make sure her blood sugar is right.

By Jeff

February 9, 2009 9:49 AM | Link to this

Since someone brought up EpiPens:

I like them.

By Mil Mom

February 9, 2009 9:50 AM | Link to this

I would think not having nurses at a school would be a huge liability. Just an FYI, many schools do share nurses already. I don’t know of anyone in a school with the exception of some of the administration staff making more than 60K a year. Todays kids are plagued with more than just the everyday scrpaes and cuts. There are insulin dependent diabetes, severe allergies, asthma, some kids with various behavoir and mental issues taking vary powerful and dangerous drugs, kids will cancer, sickle cell, seizures, fequent nose bleeds… the list goes on and on. If they do away with nurses and such responsiblites fall to teachers and office staff how much class time will be missed having teacher stop to administer such medications. Or if the teacher refuses responsibilty, the child will have to probly go to the office staff; which with such high class levels, could be too late. Do we really want these untrained people giving out life saving treatment to our chilren?

Wasn’t there a story not to long ago about a young boy going into a seisure or something and it took EMTS longer than 20 minutes to arrive? I don’t remeber the outcome of his situation. But if it was your child having a seizure or an asthma attack or a severe allergic reaction, wouldn’t you want someone there who could help immediatly. Your child could die or suffer from loss of brain function waiting for the EMT’s to arrive. Oh but we don’t have the money to pay nurses, however the state apparently have enough to pay the ensuing loss suits that are to follow when a child is seriously hurt or dies because of a lack of someone with medical training.

To those parents who say we don’t need school nurses: Bless your family that you have no need for one, but please to be so quick to dissmiss school nurses until you live a day in the life of a parent of a child who needs daily medical attention. Wheather it be something as simple as giving out a pill or calculating an insulin dosage, to giving an epipen correctly. Be thankful your family is healthy, but please consider the children who wouldn’t be able to go to school without a nurse there.

By HB

February 9, 2009 9:52 AM | Link to this

I grew up in a school without a school nurse, and yes, calling mom when a kid caught a cold worked out just fine. BUT..I remember teachers having to keep track of how often one child checked his blood sugar. His mom had to come to school everyday to administer insulin (good thing she was financially able to be a stay-at-home mom). Another child had an epipen that teachers were taught to use. Several other children had severe asthma and had to use nebulizers. Teachers didn’t have time to deal with that, so the responsibility fell on the school secretary. It was not a good set-up for kids or teachers.

That same small town now has one nurse that serves 4 elementary schools, staggering medication schedules while always being “on call” to dash to another school if necessary. In a larger community with schools separated by more miles and/or traffic, that would not be feasible. The system would like to hire a second nurse as the current one’s overloaded now, and have each serve two schools, but they can’t afford it, and now because of the proposed state cuts, they’re afraid they are going to lose the one the have. This is NOT the place to cut funds.

By Michelle

February 9, 2009 9:54 AM | Link to this

I am AMAZED at how clueless some people really are! I think nurses are absolutely ESSENTIAL to have on-site at ONE school.

Let me just go over a few things. Teachers, adminstrators and office staff are not qualified to perform a physical assessment. When kids come to the clinic, I am CERTAIN that the nurse doesn’t just “listen” to what a child is telling her. They also listen to what the teacher says, what they personally see, what they hear with the stethescope, and what they feel!

Nurses don’t just say, “Oh…little Jimmy feels nauseated, let me call his parents”! They actually take the time to talk to the child, examine the child and base their decisions from that!

Something that you should all keep in mind: think of the nurse as a “security” system. Yes, most people can take care of the obvious fever, vomiting, etc. The nurse is there for the not so obvious: appendicitis, abuse, head injury, new onset diabetes, etc. The nurse is there for the ONE time that they MIGHT save someone’s life! Think about it, if it was your child’s life, what value would you put on it? Could you put one?

Not only that, why on earth would you want some unqualified person dispensing medication to one of your most precious valuables?

Another thought for those of you who think that having a nurse travel between 2 or more sites…what happens when they are injured or killed when traveling?! Guess who gets the bill?! The school…this is a workman’s comp claim of the worst sort! If you are worried about the “peanuts” the school nurse gets paid, it’s NOTHING compared to a catastrophic workers’ comp claim!

The nurses are at the school for “support” of the school, student, and parent! In Atlanta’s traffic, it could take up to 1-2 hours for a parent to get to the school to pick up their sick child. Who is going to care for them? At the high school level, most kids are ok for that on their own, at the elementary and junior high level, these kids have a hard enough time taking care of getting dressed and off to school! At the high school level (and even junior high these days)

I’m SURE that nurses are acting as counselors to an extent. They can educate about safe sex, STD’s, pregnancy, abstinence, self image, eating disorders, etc. I know most parents feel like their children can talk to them about anything, but the big question is WILL they…NO!!

They can help educate parents, teachers, and children. They can help provide resources too.

I feel VERY strongly about having nurses at the schools! In today’s schools, there are SO many sick kids! As a parent, I am more comfortable knowing that there is one at my child’s school.

So, when some of you folks who are “high and mighty” about judging what a waste of money the school nurse is, you might just want to think a little bit more about their “true value”!

And no…I am NOT a school nurse, nor do I have a desire to be one!

By rene

February 9, 2009 9:54 AM | Link to this

Thankfully, my child is healthy and hopefully will never need a school nurse for a true medical emergencies, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t children who don’t need them daily, especially those that must take medication or have their blood sugar checked. I broke my ankle in gym class as a child and the coach was ready to make me try to walk on it, had the nurse not been there to stop her, the ortho doc said that my leg would have collapsed and I would have needed surgery. So yes, I do believe that someone with medical training should be onsite at each school and I do not think it should be the teacher’s or admin staff responsibility to dole out medication. School systems definitely need someone with medical training onsite. I have signed the petition to save the school nurses and will contact my representatives.

By AMM

February 9, 2009 10:00 AM | Link to this

You can have endless discussions about who actually pays the bill for a school nurse. In the meantime, do not consider eliminating the position. When I have walked into the clinic at our school, I have witnessed the need for intelligent, educated medical care. Considering the size of many of our schools, we are asking school nurses to monitor the health and well-being of a town larger than the one I grew up in.

Many of our students have conditions which years ago would have either killed them or required that they can be confined to a hospital bed. Because of advances in our medical care, these students can have meaningful, productive lives, but they do need extra help to accomplish that. School secretaries do not have the time to monitor the use of powerful medications and teachers need to be covering subject material in the classroom.

The fact that some of us did just fine without a school nurse when we were growing up does not mean that everyone was fine. The problems may never have been witnessed by you, and medical situations have changed. Not all of the medical help needed is because parents are neglectful.

By williebkind

February 9, 2009 10:05 AM | Link to this

That does it RENE! I am not supporting the bill and I am calling my representatives not let it pass.

By Cammi317

February 9, 2009 10:10 AM | Link to this

School nurses are a necessity. I am with the poster above who said these people saying they are not must not have children.

By GW

February 9, 2009 10:23 AM | Link to this

When nurses were put into Ga. schools it started an avalanche that we now want to stop with a spoon.

By Teacher in Middle School

February 9, 2009 10:26 AM | Link to this

School nurses are an unnecessary expense in schools.

I worked at a middle school, and the school nurse does two things: distribute band-aids and give bags of ice. These bags of ice are for everything, from a headache to a stomachache. This could easily be done by a cafeteria worker or even a secretary at the school.

I have had several students throw up in my classroom (or run to the bathroom and throw up) this year. I send them to the nurse, she has them call their parents, and then sends them back to my classroom. Tell me that isn’t a waste of taxpayer dollars.

When I was in middle school in the 1990s, we did not have a nurse. If I felt sick I called my mom and she came and got me or she told me to deal with it. That is the way it should be now, especially since the nurse we have now basically does the same.

By Clinicandmom

February 9, 2009 10:29 AM | Link to this

I invite all of you to go to your schools and sit in the clinic, here is what we deal with on a day to day basis, amongst other things, including keeping 85% of students IN school that just pretend to be sick to get out of going to school, or miss a test.

We are the people who tirelessly and with compassion helps: - The student who has seizure disorder and has to be given a rectal valium - The student who has a headache and a runny nose - The student with a stomach ache who didn’t eat breakfast - The student with diabetes who is feeling shaky - The student with a bump to the head after running into the wall in PE - The student who needs a bandaid because she has a blister from her new shoes - The student who just “ran the mile” and feels short of breath - The teacher who wants her blood pressure checked - The student who has an itchy throat and might have eaten peanuts - The custodian who has a cut on his arm - The student who fell and can’t walk now - The administrator who is having chest pain - The student who is itchy and has a new rash - The student who just broke up with her boyfriend and thinks she is pregnant - The student with a nosebleed - The student who needs his ADHD medication - The student who was found passed out in the bathroom - The student who is very sluggish and “might have taken something” - The student who has a splinter in her finger for 2 days - The teacher who has cramps and wants some Advil - The student who lost a contact - The student with sickle cell, crying with pain - The student who comes to your clinic every day during math - The student who has been losing weight and will not eat lunch

By John

February 9, 2009 10:30 AM | Link to this

Nurses are not a necessity. I went to school with kids who were diabetics and who had allergies. Their parents properly instructed them in how to take care of themselves and administer their medications. I did the same with my daughter and her heart condition. They did fine without nurses. Most private schools do fine with no nurses. Nurses in schools are a relatively new concpt but definitely not a necessity. Most states do not have nurses in the schools. We have to cut somewhere. If you want a nurse to come to school to take care of your child, pay for it just like I paid for the doctor I took my child to see.

By Chicken Little

February 9, 2009 10:39 AM | Link to this

you are right. we didn’t have a school nurse when i was growing up at our school. and between the rickets, the lyme disease, the regular influenza epidemics, and the VD, half of our class died before we got out of first grade.

good lord. Is there no problem that government is not responsible for?

also, don’t you have a nurse at a doctor that you pay for?

By GaLiberal

February 9, 2009 10:40 AM | Link to this

By Gail: We don’t need nurses at school. If a kid is sick, he needs to go home.

Another ignornat Rethuglicon butt-sniffer reveals their true self. So, by Gail’s logic, we should just push these “sick” kids out the door until someone picks them up. Or if some kid who is diabetic goes into insulin shock, they should just wait and maybe die. I’m with Gail. Let the little beggars die. That’s one less mouth my taxes have to support. Good idea, Gail.

By GaLiberal

February 9, 2009 10:43 AM | Link to this

By Gail: We don’t need nurses at school. If a kid is sick, he needs to go home.

Another ignornat Rethuglicon butt-sniffer reveals their true self. So, by Gail’s logic, we should just push these “sick” kids out the door until someone picks them up. Or if some kid who is diabetic goes into insulin shock, they should just wait and maybe die. I’m with Gail. Let the little beggars die. That’s one less mouth my taxes have to support. Good idea, Gail.

By Cammi317

February 9, 2009 10:44 AM | Link to this

I grew up in Chicago and we had school nurses on site. I am gathering from a lot of posters that their schools did not. Maybe that is where the differential views are coming from. I will say this on the subject…Georgia schools for the most part suck. I am always amazed how this state consistently remains near the bottom of the barrel when compared to the rest of the country. Eliminating nurses just adds to the teachers jobs. I think we can all agree that these teachers do not need a non-teaching related job added to their plates.

By Mac

February 9, 2009 10:47 AM | Link to this

By some miracle, I lived through 12 years of public school in Georgia in facilities with no school nurse. Times are tight, cut ‘em out. My peers have turned out to be sissy parents, raising sissy kids.

By The Devil's Adversary

February 9, 2009 10:48 AM | Link to this

By: Concerned Nurse-I think we should look at the other expenditures such as graduation coaches… They’ve already received the ax, now it’s your turn. And this is exactly what Perdue wanted you to do: Grad Coaches vs. nurses nurses vs. the thousands of teachers who will be laid off after they are with the increase of class sizes. Nevermind the bigger picture here: Education is once again on the chopping block while pork barrell projects continue to receive funding.

And our legislators, whose children attend private schools, will continue to the notion that “Education is a top priority in this nation”. Yeah right. God Bless America, though.

By HB

February 9, 2009 10:49 AM | Link to this

Just a clarification for those disputing a $60,000 cost per nurse: Cost does NOT equal salary. Benefits, sick days, etc. have to be included in there too. At my workplace (not a school, so I’m not sure how it compares), the median salary of around $40,000 costs the company about $55,000.

By MommaBear22

February 9, 2009 10:52 AM | Link to this

John - I cannot expect my 7yr old to inject himself with an EpiPen if needed. If he needed it, I think he will be more concerned about just being able to breathe at the moment. He has learned quite well that he can only eat food he has brought, or known, labeled, safe foods. That doesn’t mean he won’t accidently come into contact with some unsafe foods. It hasn’t happened yet, but if it does, there needs to be someone knowledgeable and willing to stick him with an epi-pen. It’s not that it’s so hard to do, but you need to know where to stick it, and many people are likely to wait too long because they don’t want to do it. Also, there’s already a big problem with kids selling their ADHD meds, so letting kids administer to themselves is not a good idea.

By mscutie78

February 9, 2009 10:53 AM | Link to this

Gail - your comment shows just how ignorant you really are! So should a child who suffers from pediatric diabetes not go to school? Or a child who has a chemical imbalance - should they not go to school? What about hemophiliacs? Them too…should they not go to school? Monitoring viral infections is not why there are nurses in schools - it’s more so for children who have to be on medication for life and those medications need to be monitored and administrated at different times throughout the day. That is not a responsibility a teacher should have. I support having nurses in schools - afterall when a child is hurt at school, I would feel more comfortable knowing there is a ‘first responder’ on-site.

By JJ

February 9, 2009 10:57 AM | Link to this

John Nurses in schools are a relatively new concpt but definitely not a necessity.

Um, when I was in elementary school back in the 60’s (in Nevada) we had a school nurse. We had one in middle school too.

Definately NOT a new concept. Sorry.

By Bobbby

February 9, 2009 11:00 AM | Link to this

I don’t know what the cost is but the school nurses are sometimes the first responders to recognize child abuse and malnutrition. The school nurse may be the only hope that the abused or starved child has. Remember the children have no one to turn to. How do you put a value on a small Childs life?

By Bobbby

February 9, 2009 11:01 AM | Link to this

I don’t know what the cost is but the school nurses are sometimes the first responders to recognize child abuse and malnutrition. The school nurse may be the only hope that the abused or starved child has. Remember the children have no one to turn to. How do you put a value on a small Childs life?

By Sally

February 9, 2009 11:03 AM | Link to this

School nurses play a vital role in the physical safety of our children while in school care. What is a large waste in schools are the weekly counseling sessions for all children.

By The Devil's Adversary

February 9, 2009 11:07 AM | Link to this

I cannot believe some of the comments in here, unbelievable. Axing school nurses is a disaster in the making.

Concerned Nurse: Graduation Coaches have already received the ax from Perdue, but clearly that wasn’t enough so you all are up next. Pitting professionals against one another is exactly what he wanted you all to do, though. Nurses vs. Grad Coaches vs. the thousands of teachers to be laid off after class size increases. Don’t miss the big picture here: PUBLIC EDUCATION IS ONCE AGAIN ON THE CHOPPING BLOCK.

I am lobbying for ALL of you (my letter has been sent to Isackson and Chambliss) but know that they send their kids to private schools, so they likely could care less. We need to make sure our voices are heard EN MASSE!

By Kat

February 9, 2009 11:09 AM | Link to this

School nurses are essential. And, if by one poster’s account that one per high school and then fewer as you go into the younger grades is the logic that is used, then you are idiots. Perhaps you don’t have children or perhaps they don’t get sick that often? Elementary school children are better off being tested by a professional who can ascertain what is wrong due to a more limited vocabulary than a high-schooler with a more “colorful” vocabulary. My son’s school nurse has called me with my son not feeling well for a reason here or there, but she ALWAYS runs a few simple tests. With his speech delay, she can work with him to determine exactly what hurts. And, as for office personnel “treating” my child? No thank you! Those people are always slammed with work whenever I go in there; I would hate for them to add nurse to their titles as well.

By Kat

February 9, 2009 11:09 AM | Link to this

School nurses are essential. And, if by one poster’s account that one per high school and then fewer as you go into the younger grades is the logic that is used, then you are idiots. Perhaps you don’t have children or perhaps they don’t get sick that often? Elementary school children are better off being tested by a professional who can ascertain what is wrong due to a more limited vocabulary than a high-schooler with a more “colorful” vocabulary. My son’s school nurse has called me with my son not feeling well for a reason here or there, but she ALWAYS runs a few simple tests. With his speech delay, she can work with him to determine exactly what hurts. And, as for office personnel “treating” my child? No thank you! Those people are always slammed with work whenever I go in there; I would hate for them to add nurse to their titles as well.

By Paula

February 9, 2009 11:10 AM | Link to this

I think nurses should be in all school from elementary to high school. My daughter is in middle school and they do not have a nurse.One day she had got pencil lead stuck in her finger and was sent to the office the person in the office stated to her that they did not have a nurse and this was middle school not elementary. Middle schools need nurses due to the fact that this is the time that many young girls and boys are going through changes with there bodies.Please keep nurses in the schools all of them

By Lovemychild

February 9, 2009 11:13 AM | Link to this

Everyone knows that school nurses are a priority for mothers who don’t love their children enough to stay at home and raise them. This is just a tax on us mothers who love their children by quitting our jobs and actually raising our own children instead of pawning our children off on others to raise.

By Public school parent

February 9, 2009 11:14 AM | Link to this

Nurses in schools aren’t a new concept, but having the state of Georgia fund them is. The state began funding school nurses in 2001 — so until then, the decision to have a school nurse was a district-by-district or school-by-school one.

It’s easy to scream that nurses are important and that having a medical responder on site in an emergency might be crucial to saving a child’s life. I doubt anyone would argue that.

But in a budget-crunched state that consistently ranks at the bottom in education, a line in STATE funding has to be drawn somewhere. The school nurse program was one of the most recent to be funded. It follows that it would be one of the first on the chopping block.

That doesn’t mean you can’t have nurses in your schools. It just means that your districts or individual schools are going to have to make nursing salaries a priority. If you as a parent are concerned about epipens, insulin shots, etc., you should then be willing to step up and help pay for the school nurse.

Why don’t schools institute a medical fee that parents pay at registration or open house? If nurses are vital, then we should be willing to pay for them. If you don’t want to pay a medical fee to help fund a nurse, then maybe you only consider their presence important if someone else is paying for them.

By Julia

February 9, 2009 11:17 AM | Link to this

Keep them in! I have a child with a life threatening peanut allergy and I definitely want someone with medical training tending to her when the inevitable happens (her school remains full of peanuts). I don’t want to be told that my child died becuase the teacher didn’t know how to use an epipen. And this is not to mention all the other great services that nurses provide!

By C Van Eldik

February 9, 2009 11:18 AM | Link to this

There is nothing more important than a child’s health and safety. Nurses ARE necessary especially in elementary school. Yes, kids that are sick will go home, but who has the medical knowledge to care for them or call 911 in an emergency?

By mom2boys

February 9, 2009 11:19 AM | Link to this

For Atlanta Native who saw nothing in the nurse’s day that should have been handled by a nurse as opposed to the parents: Get over yourself and your “70 hour weeks helping others”. You obviously have no clue what it’s like to raise children, much less a child with special needs. By your logic, every child with any sort of disability which might need a nurse’s assistance (such as feeding tubes, blood sugar monitoring, etc.) needs to stay home where the parents of that child can be responsible for those tasks. Do these children not deserve an education, just because they have medical issues that require assistance during the school day? Or are the parents of these children supposed to quit their jobs just so they can be the ones to come over to the school to tube feed their children at lunch? You need a serious reality check, and when you’re old and can’t take yourself to the bathroom, I hope the nurses who change your diaper leave you sitting in your own pee because it’s not their responsibility.

By Cammi317

February 9, 2009 11:19 AM | Link to this

lovemychild I guess we should all quit our jobs, stay at home and collect food stamps and welfare to prove that we love our children. Would this make you feel that your tax dollars were better served?

By Tom Taylor

February 9, 2009 11:19 AM | Link to this

Who’s going to give the diabetic kindergartner an insulin shot? Who’s going to help the child who has a life threatening attack and can’t wait for the EMT? If both parents work will the first grader have to catch Marta and go home alone?

By The Devil's Adversary

February 9, 2009 11:21 AM | Link to this

By Sally: What is a large waste in schools are the weekly counseling sessions for all children.

I can’t take it, the ignorance is astounding. Have any of you spewing negative rhetoric ever even set foot in a public school???

By PTA President

February 9, 2009 11:24 AM | Link to this

We need nurses in the schools. I am not a mother that knowingly sends my children to school sick but if they did get sick at school I would want a professional to look after them until I arrive.

By Manny

February 9, 2009 11:24 AM | Link to this

Children can have an accident. A child can become ill during the course of the school day. Children can have allergic reactions to certain foods or environments. Children can start showing early symptoms of something that, if not caught early, can turn into something life-threatening.

That’s why school nurses are important. It’s not just because your little child has the sniffles and needs to stay home. It’s because of accidents, injuries, sudden illnesses, and early detection of life-threatening situations.

Oh, and God forbid, but they also are one of the first detectors of child abuse.

By Jeff

February 9, 2009 11:24 AM | Link to this

I’ve heard of 4yo kids who could inject themselves with EpiPens in an emergency.

It comes down to parenting - as always. If you know your kid is likely to encounter a life threatening situation on a decently regular basis, train them from the moment you know about the issue to handle the situation themselves as much as possible.

Yes, this means if you know at birth that said kid will encounter such issues, you start training them from the first hour to do so. By the time they are actually physically able to do so (once they have full motor control), the actions needed will be so ingrained as to be ‘instinctual’.

By me

February 9, 2009 11:24 AM | Link to this

I went to the school nurse once with a very bad stomachache. If the nurse had not been there to examine me and tell me to go to the hospital to get my appendix out, my appendix would have burst inside me. There are many reasons for school nurses.

By ATL Mom

February 9, 2009 11:26 AM | Link to this

Why is it remotely acceptable to ask so much of teachers today? If you make the teachers be nurses as well … Georgia’s education will plummet from near the bottom to the very bottom. Teachers need more time teaching kids not taking care of them.

Sick kids should stay at home but not every kid who goes to the nurse is the type of sick that needs to stay at home.

The ignorant person who wrote to keep sick kids at home obvoisly doesn’t have or even know any children. What a sad life.

By ginger

February 9, 2009 11:28 AM | Link to this

Lulu, there is a difference between a child with a cold or stomachache and a child with a chronic health condition. Not to mention all the medications that have to be administered on a daily basis to many students. Of course, my daughter could administer her own daily medication but if she has it in her possession, she would be expelled for having drugs at the school. So who is going to do it? The teacher? Along with bigger class sizes and all the other crap they have to do? I don’t think so. My daughter’s school has a large deaf student population and most of those kids also come with many other chronic health conditions which require constant attention and medication maintenance, as well as some special procedures (iv bag changes, etc.) that a teacher is not trained to do. If the school nurse is remove at my school, while I love supporting the public school system, I will have no choice but to enroll my daughter in private school.

By VillaDawg

February 9, 2009 11:32 AM | Link to this

Hey, all you people who don’t think we need nurses at school should get your heads out of Limbaughs a*.

By Ginger

February 9, 2009 11:35 AM | Link to this

I am also an Atlanta native and graduated from Cedar Grove High School in DeKalb County in 1984. During my entire school career, from elementary to high school, there were school nurses. I wonder why the disparity? Why some of our schools had nurses and some did not. Methinks some of you are not being honest to further your agenda.

By Atlanta Native

February 9, 2009 11:36 AM | Link to this

Of course there needs to a health professional on campus. This why you don’t send your kids to government schools. The goal is not to educate them, but to house them and prepare them for institutional living later in life (jail, projects, military, etc.).

If you want your kid’s health and education to be more important than present political policies (Democrat or Republican), you have to pay for that. It hurts now to pay for it, but I look at it as charity, as someone has got to hire those government school kids that avoid an institutional lifestyle and ever make it to the workplace.

By sharon

February 9, 2009 11:40 AM | Link to this

We have a higher incidence of childhood diabetes and other conditions than we’ve had in the past. Whether that’s the fault of the food industry, cultural changes or whatever, do we really want to kick those kids out of the school system or into a potentially hazardous position in the schools without a responsible adult to help out? Most parents have to work, teachers have to teach, and kids are KIDS!! Why are we willing to take care of CEO’s and executives who mismanage our hard earned money, but are unwilling to take care of our kids?? Where are our priorities?

By sharon

February 9, 2009 11:42 AM | Link to this

We have a higher incidence of childhood diabetes and other conditions than we’ve had in the past. Whether that’s the fault of the food industry, cultural changes or whatever, do we really want to kick those kids out of the school system or into a potentially hazardous position in the schools without a responsible adult to help out? Most parents have to work, teachers have to teach, and kids are KIDS!! Why are we willing to take care of CEO’s and executives who mismanage our hard earned money, but are unwilling to take care of our kids?? Where are our priorities?

And for those of you who think you DIDN’T have nurses in your day — if you had a special education class, most likely you had someone who was trained to ACT as a nurse.

By Atlanta Native

February 9, 2009 11:45 AM | Link to this

Atlanta Native @ 11:36 Why are you commenting under my name???? The original Atlanta Native did no post at 11:36

By Daniel

February 9, 2009 11:46 AM | Link to this

You still need nurses at schools because oftentimes a person needs immediate attention although it’s not to the level of call for an emergency vehicle.

By Barbara

February 9, 2009 11:46 AM | Link to this

Unless you work in a school or have a child that it chronically ill, you may not realize what a great help a school nurse is to everyone involved. I hope we can find a way to keep our school nurses.

By Toopster

February 9, 2009 11:55 AM | Link to this

All it will take is for one kid to get the wrong dose of medication and this state will be in a boat load of trouble. With so many kids on medication (ADHD meds, Insulin, allergies, asthma, etc.) eliminating nurses is a ticking timebomb.

By tim

February 9, 2009 11:57 AM | Link to this

I had no school nurse and I had no problem. How many other positions can they dream up to create a job position. I know, lets have a cell phone policman because the teachers cant spend all day to stop students from using their phones or maybe lets create a school fireman in case there is a fire. Lets quit trying to be stuck up yuppies and grow up. Go pick your kid up if they are sick and get over it!!!!!!!!!!!

By Cammi317

February 9, 2009 12:00 PM | Link to this

Toopster the wrong dose OR the wrong medication. Can you see these teachers with drawers full of medications trying to administer them at various points during the day?

By Atlanta Native

February 9, 2009 12:00 PM | Link to this

I have been posting under this name for years.

By Atlanta Native

February 9, 2009 12:05 PM | Link to this

I have been using this name for years.

By jhenry

February 9, 2009 12:13 PM | Link to this

All of these people on here talking about “When I was in school…” I don’t know how long ago that was, but even just in the last few years, medical issues in schools have changed drastically. We have students who take medicine for all kinds of serious illnesses. I would hate to be in a situation where the time it took to call a parent to give medical attention versus the time it took to get a child to a school nurse made the difference in life or death or something of the sort. It’s funny how we are willing to spend billions of dollars fighting wars at the pretense of eliminating terrorism, but are unwilling to spend a few thousand dollars to better the well-fare of children. In today’s economy, a school nurse may be all the health care some of these students get. Let’s get our heads out of the sand and stop talking about what happen when many of you were in school. Heck, when many of you were in school, it was still one room!

By Clinicandmom

February 9, 2009 12:28 PM | Link to this

Tim You clearly do not have a clue, what happens inside of a school. Would you like to administer a rectal valium to a child who is seizing?? Or handle a child in shock from an open fracture? or a child who has passed out in the hallway? OR better yet the MANY children that are just using the clinic as a means to get help because of their home life and keep trying to go home for no reason (faking illness) other than to miss a test or project. Or the child that has a Brain tumor, liver transplant, diabetes, etc and needs to be monitored. If we had no nurses, there would be scores of children absent from school because we have no one to monitor them and see if they are truly sick or just trying to cut out of school. This has NOTHING to do with Yuppy parents!

By The Devil's Adversary

February 9, 2009 12:38 PM | Link to this

By AMM: The fact that some of us did just fine without a school nurse when we were growing up does not mean that everyone was fine. The problems may never have been witnessed by you, and medical situations have changed. Not all of the medical help needed is because parents are neglectful.

Amen and AMEN!

By Yo Momma

February 9, 2009 12:39 PM | Link to this

Sorry to hear that some of you think that the presence of a school nurse is a new thing. We always had a school nurse, and I’m 55 years old. On the other hand, I went to school in a state where education is/was a priority. And, my parents parented me full time, and did a fine job, thank you very much.

My daughter needed regular medications administered while in school here in GA. The rules on meds are tight. Part of the reason they don’t want the children administering them by themselves is to reduce the risk of other children taking them. I wouldn’t feel safe knowing that some parent volunteer was dispensing meds to my, or any other child. Trained medical personnel is essential to our children’s safety and well being while in school. They spend more time there than they do at home!

By The Devil's Adversary

February 9, 2009 12:45 PM | Link to this

Clinicandmom: can I just say that you are a GEM??

Teacher In Middle School: A liar, an idiot, or both. Which one are you?

By The Devil's Adversary

February 9, 2009 12:58 PM | Link to this

By Public School parent: Why don’t schools institute a medical fee that parents pay at registration or open house? If nurses are vital, then we should be willing to pay for them. If you don’t want to pay a medical fee to help fund a nurse, then maybe you only consider their presence important if someone else is paying for them.

Who is someone else? Do you not pay taxes or something? You can’t seriously believe that the state of Ga magically pulls the $ to fund school nurses out of a rabbit hat?? Newsflash: We ARE paying for them and as tax paying citizens we have every right to voice our opinions on where our $ goes.

Cammi317: I’m almost certain lovemychild was being facetious.

By Storm

February 9, 2009 1:13 PM | Link to this

Why don’t we just eliminate schools all together.

Then all the women who really love their children, can quit their jobs, and stay home and home school the kiddies. No need for schools to be babysitters. No need for nurses. Moms can do it all, and Dad’s can just work 90 hours a week to pay all the bills.

There, problem solved.

By MommaBear22

February 9, 2009 1:42 PM | Link to this

I still think we should look to cut other things, like the free breakfasts & lunches kids are receiving. Did you know the current percent of students eligible for free or reduced meals:

Clayton County: 77.5%

Atlanta: 76.3%

DeKalb County: 66.1%

Gwinnett County: 45.6%

Henry County: 40.8%

Fulton County: 39.4%

Cobb County: 37.7%

Fayette County: 17.4%

Source: Georgia Department of Education - from and AJC article

How is it that in Gwinnett County, 45% of kids need free meals? I know hungry kids don’t learn as well but there has to be some abuse of this program going on - not to mention that food and education should be two separate things and tax payers should not be responsible for feeding children.

I don’t know how to add a link - didn’t work the first time, but the article also talked about the number of kids who don’t qualify for the free meals. Well, guess what, the school gives little Johnny free meals when he just forgets to bring his lunch or money for lunch. Seems like the school could work on that problem and save some serious taxpayer dollars. Clayton county expects this years total, just for the forgotten lunches, is going to be $200,000. Why is it the taxpayers problem that his lazy parents didn’t send him to school with lunch. I think a few time of Johnny coming home hungry might help the parents to remember.

By The Devil's Adversary

February 9, 2009 1:47 PM | Link to this

By Jeff:It comes down to parenting - as always. If you know your kid is likely to encounter a life threatening situation on a decently regular basis, train them from the moment you know about the issue to handle the situation themselves as much as possible.

Jeff, I do not want to believe you are this dense but you make it so…hard. You are not of this Earth.

By Public school parent

February 9, 2009 1:56 PM | Link to this

To the devil’s adversary: Of course, you have every right to voice your opinion as to where your tax dollars go. And I pay my taxes voluntarily and accurately every year.

The problem is that a growing number of American citizens —pushing 50% — essentially do not pay taxes. They may have income tax withheld from their paychecks, but through things like Earned Income Tax Credits, per-child child tax credits and other deductions, their tax liability is zero. They get all of that withheld money back as a refund.

I don’t begrude a citizen taking advantage of every tool possible to keep as much of their own money as possible. Most of the zero-tax liability Americans make very little and need every dollar. But when 57+ million households aren’t contributing tax dollars to the system (but ARE using the schools/emergency rooms and other public services), we have a budgetary problem.

Just like any household that’s facing a budget crunch — many right now — our governments have to look around and find ways to save money.

I like school nurses. I think they serve an important role. And I would be willing to pay a medical fee in addition to the thousands of tax dollars I pay every year.

I just think that screaming “nurses are important” and closing your eyes to the realities of a state budget that needs cutting in every department isn’t a productive solution.

Medical fees would be one way to help raise the funds and keep the nurses we say we want in the schools. But parents are going to have to step up — and that includes those millions who currently have a zero tax liability.

By A School Nurse RN

February 9, 2009 1:56 PM | Link to this

WHERE are school RN’s being paid $50T a year? I entered an ATL suburban area school with 25 years of experience and am maxed out at $33T and the only raise I am entitled too is cost of living….but this job works for my son with the hours I am at the school. I have alot of Peds experience and love my job. A licensed nurse should be here for the children with diabetes, seizure disorders, etc. SHOULD they not be in school or should we train our teachers and secretaries to deal with these issues along with No Child Left Behind? My problem with this is that shouldn’t someone at least be an LPN? Hiring “Clinic Assistants” with on the job training is not smart! Priorities are in questions all over the South as related to education…

By A School Nurse RN

February 9, 2009 1:59 PM | Link to this

WHERE are school RN’s being paid $50T a year? I entered an ATL suburban area school with 25 years of experience and am maxed out at $33T and the only raise I am entitled too is cost of living….but this job works for my son with the hours I am at the school. I have alot of Peds experience and love my job. A licensed nurse should be here for the children with diabetes, seizure disorders, etc. SHOULD they not be in school or should we train our teachers and secretaries to deal with these issues along with No Child Left Behind? My problem with this is that shouldn’t someone at least be an LPN? Hiring “Clinic Assistants” with on the job training is not smart! Priorities are in questions all over the South as related to education…

By DB

February 9, 2009 1:59 PM | Link to this

A vote for school nurses, here. Our private school has two — one for the elementary school, and another for the middle and high school. And they WORK. Between the diabetics, epileptics, the severe allergies, the asthma, two kids with after-transplant care, and a myriad of other everyday occurrances, we have cause to be grateful to them every day. The teachers are not trained to provide the care these kids need, and frankly, if that’s what it takes for these kids to be able to go to school safely, then that’s that.

@Public School Parent, there IS a fee — it’s called “school taxes”, and everyone pays them, including those who do not participate in the public school system. If you are blessed with healthy children who need no more than an occasional bandaid, then good for you. Many are not. Gee, if you live in Fulton County, see if you can wiggle out of paying for Grady Hospital, too, since you probably don’t use THAT, either.

@Jeff, no matter how well you train a kid to deal with their health issues, the simple fact of the matter is that emergencies are EMERGENCIES because they are unplanned and unexpected. A kid newly diagnosed with Type I diabetes is dealing with a whole host of emotional AND physical issues, not just a simple blood test. Nurses are teachers, too — just in a different arena.

By A School Nurse RN

February 9, 2009 2:01 PM | Link to this

WHERE are school RN’s being paid $50T a year? I entered an ATL suburban area school with 25 years of experience and am maxed out at $33T and the only raise I am entitled too is cost of living….but this job works for my son with the hours I am at the school. I have alot of Peds experience and love my job. A licensed nurse should be here for the children with diabetes, seizure disorders, etc. SHOULD they not be in school or should we train our teachers and secretaries to deal with these issues along with No Child Left Behind? My problem with this is that shouldn’t someone at least be an LPN? Hiring “Clinic Assistants” with on the job training is not smart! Priorities are in questions all over the South as related to education…

By Kathy

February 9, 2009 2:14 PM | Link to this

Mommabear22…..the more kids on Free/Reduced Lunch, the more $ a school system recieves for programs. When I taught Kindergarten in Gwinnett, we were told to offer Free/Reduced Lunch forms to EVERY parent that came through the door. Sad, isn’t it?

By David S

February 9, 2009 2:18 PM | Link to this

Maybe if schools weren’t forcing so many kids to take mind altering psychoactive drugs (that the nurses must administer) we wouldn’t need so many nurses. Maybe if some common sense, rather than zero tolerance, were brought back into the schools, kids who are old enough could take their own medications (the useful ones - not the mind altering ones mentioed earlier) thus eliminating the need for nurses.

The image of the caring woman in the uniform who cleans up and bandages scraped knees and soothes tummy aches is an image of the past. Now she is that and an on-site pharmacist without the pay. End the drug and the drug war insanity and maybe the limited resources the school can afford will actually cover their real needs.

By Public school parent

February 9, 2009 2:27 PM | Link to this

To devil’s adversary — Of course you have every right to voice your opinion on how your tax dollars are spent. I would hope that you that do. And I pay my taxes voluntarily and accurately every year.

The problem is that a growing number of American citizens —pushing 50 percent now — essentially pay no income tax. They may have their taxes withheld from their paychecks, but through exemptions like Earned Income Tax Credit, per-child tax credit and other deductions, their tax liability equals zero. So they get that withheld money back each year in the form of a refund.

I don’t begrudge anyone who uses the tools available to them to keep as much of their hard-earned money as possible. And most of these zero-tax liability Americans make very little and need every dollar.

But when 120+ million of our citizens aren’t contributing ANY tax dollars to the system (but ARE using schools/hospitals and other public services), we have a serious budgetary problem.

I like school nurses. I think they play an important role, and I would pay a medical fee (in addition to the taxes I already pay) to help cover our school nurse’s salary. But screaming “nurses are important” and closing your eyes to the realities of our state budget isn’t a viable solution.

The truth is, our state budget needs trimming in every department. Just like the many households today that are facing their own budget crunch, our governments are going to have to make some tough — and unpopular —choices.

Medical fees to fund school nurses could help keep the school nurses we all say we want. But parents are going to have to step up and decide that nurses are a priority they would pay for — and that includes the millions of zero-tax liability parents.

By JJ

February 9, 2009 2:37 PM | Link to this

David, the schools aren’t “forcing kids to take mind altering psychoactive drugs.”

They took recess and PE out of the school day so the kids have no outlet. Then they insist you put little Johnny on ritalin because he can’t sit still for 6 hours in a “structured” environment.

All I have to say is THANK GOD my kid is out of public schools in about 3 months!!!!

However, every year since she was in Kindergarten, I have voluntarily donated money to the school nurse.

By Tim

February 9, 2009 2:45 PM | Link to this

Hey Clinicandmom, that what 911 is for. Also all office staff should have CPR and basic medical training. I dont think school nurses can do anything for brain tumors or heart surgey as you claim they can. The school is not a medical facility and cannot and shouldnt assume that type of risk. Then people like you would sue the school if something happened to your child. You sound like one of those parents that has to drive your kids to school too!!!! Call 911 if need be….

By Atlanta Native Too

February 9, 2009 2:51 PM | Link to this

OK Atlanta Native…by your post it appears that you and I think alike also. I have only been using this name for a few weeks so I will change to Atlanta Native Too and together we can pound some common sense into the public. Peace Brother.

By Atlanta Native Too

February 9, 2009 3:00 PM | Link to this

Well my wife stayed home with our children and I didn’t have to work 90 hours a week as storm suggests. We made a decision BEFORE we had kids on what we would do. I worked two jobs for over 22 years to make sure my family had what we needed. Not what we wanted but what we needed. There is a big difference. We did without things to make our plan work, such a expensive vacations, newer cars bigger house etc. Now it is paying off. Our kids are grown and in the workforce. We have 4 grandchildren and everyone is very happy. I still say that school nurses are not a necessity. Sorry if you disagree but I guess that is why this country is so great….we can disagree and live to tell about it.

By motherjanegoose

February 9, 2009 3:44 PM | Link to this

Wow…today has been busy!

Posters…with all due respect, Jeff is not currently a parent. Please take this into consideration when you read his posts.

Next, those of you who have not stepped into a school within the last 15 years, also have your own opinions…their validity is murky.

I FIRMLY BELIEVE THAT ALL SICK CHILDREN NEED TO BE KEPT AT HOME WITH MOM OR PICKED UP AS SOON AS SHE ( YES WE ARE SPEAKING JUNE CLEAVER HERE) CAN GET TO SCHOOL. BUT…this is not the world we live in….wake up!

I checked in with my sister ( since she is an RN and I am not…I have opinions but NO experience in this medical arena) today and she remembers that we did have school nurses in Chicago in the 60’s and 70’s. So, I was not dreaming it up.

She now goes into on a day to day need only basis when they call her for specific issues. She lives in a rural area that does not fund nurses.

If ANYONE can figure out how to make all parents accountable for their children: eat breakfast, wear a jacket when the temp. is 50 degrees, brush their teeth, bring their school supplies to school and also their homework… PLEASE LET US KNOW.

I am not talking about those of you who are successful ( as I usually am) with my own two but those of you who can figure out how to get ALL of the other parents on board…we NEED to hear from you…TEACHERS WANT TO MEET YOU…step it up…we are waiting!

We are interested in effective ideas that work across the board…not just in your own four walls or on paper.

Do I think we may need to have a license to breed…perhaps it will come to that…so many parents today are really not being responsible.

By Yo Momma

February 9, 2009 4:10 PM | Link to this

Want to cut some money? How many para-professionals does it take to pay for one school nurse? In all of my 13 years of public education we NEVER had more than one teacher in the room. Teach the children some manners and respect, and teach the teachers to teach.

By motherjanegoose

February 9, 2009 4:32 PM | Link to this

Yo Momma…pray tell: how will we teach the parents to teach their children manners…please re-read my comment.

We need answers and if YOU have some that will work ( not just in theory) we are waiting.

Today’s parents themselves have no manners. ( Perhaps we have a generation of those who grew up without Sunday School….I am not kidding here).

Always remember one of my favorite sayings; LITTLE EARS ARE BIG LISTENERS…children model what they hear at home….I hear things from 5 year olds that I am amazed at. We were talking about animals today and one boy told me that his Daddy holds and dangles his cat by his tail. Others have told me that their Daddy is in prison among other things. I NEVER KNEW ANYONE IN PRISON WHEN I WAS A CHILD.

I taught Kinder without a para pro in Texas, but that was over 20 years ago. The classroom is NOT the same.

Are you now in the classroom…if yes, then we are listening! If you only have opinions about when you were in school, then, in my opinion,you are off the valid list.

Kind of like saying… “Well, I never had a cell phone when I was a teenager…” RIGHT: me neither but my kids both do.

I hate to inform many of you but today’s families are going to ** in a handbasket. Some may think the new President will straighten things out. I just do not see it. We form strong/responsible/ caring/ contributing and hardworking families from the ground up…not from the President down….he is not the savior. If parents expect Obama to work everything out…their children will expect someone else to help them too!

We are on a slippery slope to disasterville.

I am very interested in those of you who will come up with a REAL solution to fix today’s families…can’t wait!

By Terri

February 9, 2009 5:20 PM | Link to this

most schools in Fulton County don’t have a school nurse who is there full time. She comes in once a week or so. Our school has clinic aids at all times the school is open. She’s the one who gives our medication, calls when your kids gets sick, etc. These people are not losing their jobs.

By jim d

February 9, 2009 6:28 PM | Link to this

Sounds like socialized medical services to me. I think we should allow nurses and let those that use them pay their fee’s.

By stop breeding!

February 9, 2009 7:22 PM | Link to this

You have 3 kids and you have to rely on a school nurse explain to you how to protect your kids from germs, etc? A tax payer supported school nurse at that! So, in the end, it does take a village, especially when the village idiots insist on reproducing.

By catlady

February 9, 2009 8:13 PM | Link to this

I taught 25 years without a nurse. We managed fine: accidents, kids on meds, inhalers, diabetes, epilepsy BUT I don’t recall the sheer number of the severe problems we have now. We still don’t have the extreme numbers of childhood diabetes or severe allergies that are claimed now in some counties. I guess because most of our kids are either Hispanic or lower class white, they don’t have the frequency of diagnosis (or we live in a healthier place?)

The two scary events I remember was a concussion and a broken arm. In neither case would the mother answer the phone.

What we did back then was: if it was a minor accident, we patched them up. If it was a serious accident or illness, we called the parents, and if it was very serious we called the ambulance and then the parent.

At one point I was told I would be catherizing a young boy. I said no thanks to that, either his mother would have to come or he would have to be catherized when he got home. They decided to do the latter. But I daily changed his diaper (he had no control of that). He was not sp ed, but had spina bifida. It was more uncomfortable when I taught him again later when he was 11.

I have also changed sanitary napkins, etc, for MR kids. I have also explained (in 2 languages) to girls who cannot understand why they are suddenly bleeding from their “privates.” (They routinely think they are dying).

Lots of bleeding noses and vomiting, too.

Teachers have to do lots of things. As litigious as people are, legally it is a lose/lose.

At our school now teachers keep most of the individual meds and dispense them (even tho we have a nurse) but she does the insulin.

Keeping the school nurses would be great, if we can afford to. I am not sure we need RNs. Ours is an LPN. The $60,000 I quoted earlier (acc to our supt) includes benefits.

By motherjanegoose

February 10, 2009 6:22 AM | Link to this

catlady…you have my respect and attention, as you speak from experience…more than most of the others who are making comments.

By motherjanegoose

February 10, 2009 7:14 AM | Link to this

I discussed this with my husband and he mentioned that if a fee were charged to students to cover the nurse’s salary ( at the beginning of the year) that might work.

I commented that not everyone would pay the fee and then would we turn those sick children away?

VOILA…I just remembered something I learned on a tour in Philadelphia… back in the colonial days, you paid to have fire protection and a bronze ( ?) plaque was secured to your front door. If your house was on fire and you did NOT have the plaque…the firefighters would not fight the fire, as you had not paid your dues. You were on your own.

How would this be different from only servicing those children who had PAID to see the nurse?

This is the biggest problem in America, everyone wants what everyone else has but they do not want to pay or make sacrifices to get it themselves.

FYI some of the schools with the larger portion of children who are on the free lunch program have parents who DRIVE their children to school in much nicer cars than I ever owned….using their own money to pay for gas when it could be used to pay for lunch. Lunch ( here) is about $2 per day per child and especially when gas was high…$2 would hardly get you to school and back.

PEOPLE…we do not need a president who will save us…we need to look ourselves in the mirror and take care of ourselves.

RESPECT… RESPONSIBILITY AND RESOURCEFULNESS…three words everyone needs to learn and teach their children…

Off of my soapbox!

By HB

February 10, 2009 8:31 AM | Link to this

I am not a teacher, so please forgive me, MJG, as apparently I am not really qualified to post on this blog like so many of the parents here.

That said, are you serious about the plaque? How is that any different from no fee, no nurse?! Clearly, it’s not. But our fire departments don’t work that way anymore! We have decided that protecting human life, both of the homeowners, and the lives and property of their neighbors is for the greater good.

So you need $60,000 for a nurse for a school of what, maybe 600 students? That’s $100 per student. Nice thought, and great if people will do it, but realistically, not everyone will pay (or be able to), so I wouldn’t count on getting more than 1/2 to 2/3. Less in high-poverty schools. So are you really going to keep nonpaying kids from seeing the nurse? Are you going to tell a 6-y-o, “yeah, your friend went to the nurse yesterday, but you can go puke in the corner while we wait for Mommy to get here.” Teacher’s gonna love that. Most kids will only need really a nurse in an emergency. When Susie falls off the monkeybars and breaks her arm, is the nurse going to stay inside while teachers deal with it because her parents didn’t pay?

A nurse’s salary seems like a small price to pay for a lot of knowledge on campus and a lot of pressure taken off the teachers. Don’t most schools have mulitiple vice principles that cost well more than a nurse? Let’s make the choice there. What would y’all prefer: lose one administrator or the nurse?

By motherjanegoose

February 10, 2009 8:51 AM | Link to this

HB…OF COURSE, ANYONE CAN POST ON THIS BLOG …

I personally feel that many posters ( who have grand ideas) have not been in the classroom ( or with children) and thus cannot see how things work. . CATLADY has a clue and has walked on the sidewalk that most of us have not walked on…including me. See her comment from yesterday.

My point is that those who are sharing ideas need to tell us how their idea can be successfully implemented. Some folks can and will step up to the plate!
Your idea on administration is a thought to ponder…I do not know enough about it to comment on that choice…anyone else?

One poster wanted to make sure children have manners in the classroom…with today’s parents this is not happening ( in general).

Our society is on a slippery slide and if some of us do not stand up and shout…it will be a disgrace for our children.

YES everyone should be able to see the school nurse and YES all schools should have one.

I am making the point that ( in times past with the fire plaque) people had to step up to the plate and pay for what they wanted…not to just expect OBAMA to take care of us.

Unless he has a magical pot of gold…some of us will pay the majority for those who can or will not pay.

Anyone out there have and extra million so that the others can have free lunch at school and drive fancy cars that they have leased.

ANYONE is welcome in our public schools and those who have suggestions about anything going on in the schools should stop by for a visit.

I will fully admit that I DO NOT KNOW EVERYTHING…I do know a few things about schools, as I have been in more of them than most folks…usually at least 5 different schools each week.

Off to school!!!LOL

By Michelle

February 10, 2009 9:37 AM | Link to this

I’ve seen this mentioned a couple of times, and it actually makes sense: why not have the parents pay a “medical” fee? I would be willing to pay! Why not have the school system pay 1/2 the cost and have the parents pay the remainder? I think if the parents were given the option of helping to keep a nurse, they would likely be willing to pay.

The teachers already have SO much to deal with besides teaching, I don’t think they should have to deal with medical issues too!

By new mom

February 10, 2009 10:10 AM | Link to this

What about taking the medical fee idea one step further—Charge students every time they go, just as they do for lunch. I have nothing against a nurse in schools, every kid once in a while gets a stomach bug or fever or falls on the playground. But what I’m reading sounds like there are a lot of constant, semi-daily or daily medical issues that consume a nurse’s time, ie: giving out medications, blood sugar checks, etc. IMHO this sounds more like it falls into the realm of healthcare, not education. Perhaps families should be charged a nurse “office visit”, just as if they were sending their kids to the doctor, every time they need to go. That way, the families that are using the nurse’s office often/daily are the ones footing more of the bill. I can’t believe that more than 5% of the students fall into that category!

Another thought…charging families a nurse office visit would DRAMATICALLY cut down on the kids who abuse the system and use the nurse to get out of class. I had several of those kids, the one year I taught, who loved to claim they ‘didn’t feel good’ and run (and basically hide) with the nurse. And if a teacher calls the student on it and says no, wait a few minutes, etc., then the parents get upset that you are keeping them from the nurse. I bet if the parents had to pay everytime Suzy ran to the clinic, Suzy would suddenly have a full recovery ;)

By School Nurse and Mom

February 10, 2009 10:41 AM | Link to this

The school nurse ratio per the National Association of School Nurses minimal standard is 1 SN to every 750 students. Just a tidbit, many school nurses are Licensed Registered Healthcare professionals. We may be employed in the educational setting,but is that any reason to pay us less that our nursing peers who are employed in other settings? Regarding keeping students at school, I send children home many times without a fever or vomiting. I also consult with the parent by telephone and let them know what the signs and symptoms are. I can’t tell you the times that I have seen children at 9:00am that just “look green” and need to go home and an hour later a parent call me and say you. Our teachers are trained to send me rashes and other things that could possibly be contagious. I know when there is a stomach virus, the flu and yes if there has been a case of head lice and desperately track it down to prevent others from contracting illness or infections. We save lives everyday and earn every single penny that we make. I hope that educated persons will support school health services.

By Babs

February 10, 2009 12:46 PM | Link to this

Most of the schools need to look at their employees and start cutting the fat. I know that many schools have folks who could do their job on a part time basis.

By TBS

February 10, 2009 1:20 PM | Link to this

First things first. School nurses DO NOT make 50K a year. Where did you get your information? School nurses work for the summer vacations which we do not get paid for. We work 191 days and are paid for 191 days. We conduct hearing and vision screenings on students that are being tested for services, we administer medications, which by the way some are controlled medications that require a nurse. So before you post get your facts straight, but of course only a “NURSE” would know the true facts!

By nurse&mother

February 10, 2009 1:26 PM | Link to this

OK. I feel the need to try to shed some light on this subject since I was a school nurse for three years. First of all, in my school district, school nurses are not employed by the schools, but rather by the health dept. (which does not pay well). The schools helped to subsidize the salary. I brought home a little less than $2,000 per month and did not get paid during the summer like the teachers. Thank you very much. A person who chooses to do school nursing is not in it for the money, but rather for the children or to have a schedule like their own children.

I served two schools (each school had approx. 650 children). I have seen a teacher give the wrong medicine to a student before (methadone instead of ADHD med-Thanks Walmart for the screw up) I had a child that just didn’t act right/look right and I called EMS based on a professional assessment. I think an untrained person would have just let the child lie down. When EMS arrived, his pulse ox was in the 60’s (should have been 97-100). THis child could have died in my clinic that day.

I would like to point out that if all the free loading folks would quit abusing the welcare system (free/reduced lunch program, WIC, Medicaid etc- who are just too lazy to get a job not those who are truly needy) then our gov’t would have a whole lot more money to go around. I suggest that instead of charging the children to come to the clinic, the gov’t should charge all those sorry people who frequent the ER and Labor and Delivery for stupid things should have to pay a $5 co-pay. It’s not expensive and won’t break their account (maybe just force someone to give up their cigs/beer for the day). This $5 co-pay might help those on Uncle Sam’s payroll, to realize that “hmmm maybe I don’t need to go to the ER for a $1 urine pregnancy test. (yes, this was an actual case when I worked in the ER many moons ago). If the person on Uncle Sam’s payroll truly has a life threatening emergency, then the co-pay is refunded.

Elect Nurse&mother for Senator. I think I could balance the budget.

By nurse&mother

February 10, 2009 1:33 PM | Link to this

ONe more thing, before I went to the schools, I had the same idea that the nurse would just be putting on bandages/giving out ice packs etc. Yes, I still did that, but there are so many more things to school nursing that just that. I discovered heart arrythmias, pneumonia, asthma and countless other things. I had to administer epi pens to children when the teachers would not.

It is difficult to compare yesteryear to today in terms of children just sucking it up without a nurse in the school. There were not so many children with chronic illnesses as there are today. Those that did have a chronic medical condition either died or had to stay at home and miss out on an education.

Whether you like it or not, the gov’t is obligated to include all types of children with medical problems in the school. If you forced these children to stay at home and be home bound, it would cost the taxpayers MUCH more for having to send an individual teacher (who makes generally more) than the nurse.

By nurse&mother

February 10, 2009 1:39 PM | Link to this

Sorry to sound so jaded. I just wish the taxpayers and our congressmen/women would come to the average hospital and see their money being wasted. It will make any liberal think twice about doling out free money with no strings attached.

By motherjanegoose

February 10, 2009 2:16 PM | Link to this

nurse and mother….you have my vote! I am thrilled that someone who knows quite a bit about the subject can shed some light on it. You sing the hospital song, I sing the school song!

Armchair experts are abundant ( here) and we need someone who can walk the walk and talk the talk. You see it in the hospital and I see it in the schools.

TBS and School Nurse and Mom high five!!!!

I know that some readers think I act like I know everything…I do NOT. BUT when those who have no idea how things develop in TODAY’S world make inane comments…it makes me crazy.

Thanks for your input folks!!!

Each of you have a REAL CLUE and we need to pay attention to the fact that you can both shed some light on a subject from your own experience.

Newmom…your idea is one to ponder…I like it!

By nurse&mother

February 10, 2009 2:27 PM | Link to this

Please excuse the poor grammar in my previous posts. I was typing pretty fast.

By JJ

February 10, 2009 3:49 PM | Link to this

I don’t know about other school districts, but in Gwinnett you get a form for “voluntary contributions” at the beginning of the school year, when you register your kids. On that form is a $15 “fee” for the school nurse and supplies.

I’ve always donated for the school nurse. I know my own child went to the Nurse’s office numerous times in Elementary school.

By lawyer14

February 10, 2009 7:59 PM | Link to this

I’m disappointed that some of you think a medically needy child ought to sit at home versus attend school. I suppose you would complain if those same students wound up being illiterate with no education or job skills and still in need of your precious little tax dollars.

I graduated from a GA high school in 2003 and stuff happens these days(eg. choking, serious cuts, broken fingers, etc.). FYI for all the older people and their “back in the day” stories about how “we didn’t have a nurse half a century ago….” I would prefer not to have counted on the English teacher or Suzie the Secretary. Someone who KNOWS what to do would be great.

And if you disagree with school nurses, what is your suggestion? Cut out nurses and do what with the child that becomes ill? Call 911? That’ll cost the school. Stick the kiddie in the hallway and say, “call mommy or daddy?” That’ll cost ya too. Shall we ban all medically needy children from school too? Make their parents attend school with them? Make the parents pay for all nurse visits and send any non-paying parent to debt collection while withholding the student’s records? Maybe those that don’t have a medically needy child, or have not set foot in a school since Nixon was president should speak with caution.

By Babs

February 11, 2009 10:39 AM | Link to this

Please explain how calling 911 costs the school. I understand that it would cost the parent but not the school. And how does calling the parent cost the school. I have been in the school business for over 30 years and I don’t understand how it would cost the school.

By lawyer14

February 12, 2009 9:06 AM | Link to this

“Stick the kiddie in the hallway and say, ‘call mommy or daddy?’ That’ll cost ya too” —Putting the child in the hallway (thus, ignoring them) to have them (ie. Jimmy the Second-grader) call a parent will cause the school to incur some sort of liability!

—Calling 911 for every illness will likely cause serious issues between EMT/911 dispatch and the school. Unnecessary phone calls to 911 are not encouraged. Those unnecessary calls hog up EMT/police from other serious situations.

By lawyer14

February 12, 2009 9:11 AM | Link to this

when I say it will cost “you,” I mean YOU, me, us taxpaying citizens. We’ll bear the cost in one form or another. We should just bear it up front and continue to pay for nurses (I say at higher than the lousy $20-$30K they probably make).

By lawyer14

February 12, 2009 9:18 AM | Link to this

when I say it will cost “you,” I mean YOU, me, us taxpaying citizens. We’ll bear the cost in one form or another. We should just bear it up front and continue to pay for nurses (I say at higher than the lousy $20-$30K they probably make).