MOMania

By ebaby

October 2, 2008 6:23 AM | Link to this

I think I put my daughter in “time-out” in her playpen when she was around 10 months for hitting me. It took 3 times, but she eventually got the idea. People had told me to slap her hand when she put stuff in her mouth, but I quickly found that that wasnt working and havent really slapped her hand again. I think I do it too softly because she usually just looks at me like I am weird. Time out is the only thing that works for us. She is almost two and whenever we threaten to put her in TO, so usually straightens up. When we do put her in TO, she cries a lot and really straightens up.

I remember being the same way. Being sent to my room was the ultimate punishment for me and I would cry for a long time. The few times that I did get spanked, it was more like a way to shock some sense in to me because I was out of control. I remember being mad at my parents afterwards for hitting me. TO in my room was a much more effective punishment because I understood it as a consecuence of my crime. Being spanked just made me angry with them and I dont think it got the same message across.

By lakerat

October 2, 2008 7:13 AM | Link to this

This should be a good topic - my kids are grown now, but 10 months is child abuse - the kid has no clue. Of course, some on here will say one should never strike a child, so we will see. I would hope that most of us who do use spankings do not do it out of anger - that is not right.

And, as many of you may have noticed, all those posts the last few days by the trolls and others who have used my moniker (lakerat and the real lakerat) are not me - but I am sure he will chime in just the same. Just know that I am not the type person to use such language in public or private, so it is not me who spews the filth. I may give other posters a hard time (sorry MJGoose) but that is as far as it goes.

By lakerat

October 2, 2008 7:32 AM | Link to this

This should be interesting. One should never “spank” a child out of anger, and I am sure we will here from the “never spank” contingent - I guess they are the ones who want to negotiate with terrorists. But, spanking a 10 month old IS child abuse - the kid has no clue as to what he/she is doing.

And, as most of you may have noticed, some troll has been using my moniker (“lakerat” and “the real lakerat”) to spew some pretty foul stuff over the past few days. I may give some bloggers a hard time - sorry MJGoose - but it is not my style to write filth. I am sure he will be back today since I am writing for the first time in over a week (first topic I had an interest in) so just know that when the foul stuff starts it is not me.

By JJ

October 2, 2008 8:02 AM | Link to this

Define “Spank”. Did she peel off the diaper and spank the baby until his little butt was red? Or was she trying to get his attention with a swat?

I believe in spanking. I believe that sometimes you need to get their attention, and a swat on the butt does just that. If you tell a kid no over and over and they don’t get it, then you MUST get their attention.

Behavior has consequences. They need to learn this at an early age.

By Kathy

October 2, 2008 8:04 AM | Link to this

I know that I’ll get lots of “hate blogs” for this opinion, but I don’t think spanking is ever appropriate at any age. Spanking teaches a child nothing about the misbehavior, only that it hurts to get hit. If you spank a child, you are being a bully….the child is smaller than you. It is also a double standard. How can you hit a child when you’re angry or frustrated and not expect the child to turn around and do the same thing? I just don’t think that anything positive comes from spanking.

I was spanked as a child (with a belt and a hand) and I remember growing up afraid of my dad and TERRIFIED of making a mistake ever. Childhood should be about love and learning….in every situation. Spanking has nothing to do with love or learning, IMHO.

By Liha

October 2, 2008 8:15 AM | Link to this

A classic example of the parent taking their frustration out on the child. What does a 10-month-old know? She should have moved the “something” or move themselves to a different place.

Spanking is a violation of trust and it teaches kids that it’s okay to hit. I’ve only swatted my 6-year-old about 5 times in his life, usually because he went a few feet into the street or another dangerous situation.

Now that my son is 6, taking away tv or wii privileges is the effective way to get him to behave.

By Michael

October 2, 2008 8:18 AM | Link to this

when ever they begin getting into things

By Mr. Nice Guy

October 2, 2008 8:20 AM | Link to this

Any age; children must be taught a lesson for misbehaving and a good spanking is always appropriate.

I don’t want to hear these “new age” parents who do the Time Out thing or try logic and reason with a young child.

More spanking is needed.

By Jeff

October 2, 2008 8:24 AM | Link to this

Animals of every variety - including the human variety - respond to pain from the moment they are born.

Better to learn at 1 week that is is painful not to listen to mommy and daddy than at 18 years when he does something REALLY stupid and suffers consequences beyond mommy and daddy’s control.

By Kat

October 2, 2008 8:31 AM | Link to this

Every child is different. When it has been determined that your child understands certain situations and can comprehend some statements, then some form of spanking is ok. It just all depends on the comprehension level of the child.

By motherjanegoose

October 2, 2008 8:33 AM | Link to this

Wow…I will step into this cesspool first.

While I have spanked my children, I do not think spanking is the primary preferred choice.

I had this chat with my own Father a few weeks ago when he mentioned that kids today are so unruly and what is up with that? He also recalls that he we were rarely spanked. We three sisters have raised our eyebrows as we remember MANY spankings and some that would probably be considered beatings.

For the record…there are oodles of children out their whose parents do NOT bother to make them mind. They are doing them NO favors by just ignoring their behavior, while the rest of us have to tolerate it. We all live together in this world and it gets messy when some are acting like selfish, spoiled idiots.

Just look at today’s lines at the gas stations and when folks get unruly and anxious they are honking their horns and cutting in front of others…which is why there are police officers monitors…who would have thought this would happen? Boorish children become boorish adults.

A spanking may be necessary if there is immediate danger and the child is not interested in obeying. Such as a child who continues to pull away and run out into the parking lot while you are pushing your buggy or a child who tries to touch the hot stove while you are cooking. Often, parents spank out of exasperation and too quickly. However, I see way too many kids out there today who are running the show and ( in my opinion) may need some sort of a wake up call before they hurt themselves or others.
While I am not sure of the circumstances…this baby may have been in danger, so a quick pop ( not a beating) might be appropriate to help her to understand that she cannot do what she is doing. This is not appropriate if you have a lovely glass vase on the table and she is able to reach it or if she is sticking an object into an outlet…then you take the vase and put it away or put an outlet cover on the outlet.

Spanking is NOT my first choice but I have spanked my own kids. We have other options but unfortunately many parents are way too lax.

In the old days when nearly everyone was spanked…children were quite a bit more respectful….this is something to ponder. Even teachers would have the right to spank…I am so glad I was not in that era!

I have never agreed with CHILDREN SHOULD BE SEEN AND NOT HEARD….many of the children I meet are delightful and I am thrilled to have spent a few minutes with them!

Just a thought…remember those good old fashioned ear pinchings from Grandma…that would get your attention…perhaps that is it…the pain gets your attention…readers?

I know this will be touchy today and am waiting for the darts to fly…good luck Theresa.

By Joanna

October 2, 2008 8:37 AM | Link to this

A parent should never spank a child, at any age, in my opinion. I think parents who result to physical abuse are pathetic and taking the easy way out.

By Ura Sheeple

October 2, 2008 8:41 AM | Link to this

We were spanked via hand around 2-3, a switch or paddle around 5-6 & a belt or razor strap thereafter (up through high school). I think swatting your child’s fanny at age 1.5-2 is fine (depending on the “offense”).

By deidre_NC

October 2, 2008 8:47 AM | Link to this

well i wonder what she considers a spanking? at 10 months i would ‘pop’ their hands if they played with something that would hurt them..maybe a teeny pop on the mouth for biting…but a true swat the bottom spanking? cant remember…it really depended on the child-some kids a apsnking made no difference-some a pop on the bottom was like the end of the world…but at 10 months surely not a real spanking!! thats for older when they can actually do a little reasoning for themselves—and to me spankings were saved for really important things-maybe that mother you spoke of just popped her on the hand or something?

i posted a long post yesterday and it never showed up. i wish ajc would fix this blog-it seems like it has more posting problems than other blogs here?

By Jesse's Girl

October 2, 2008 8:47 AM | Link to this

Spanking an infant is never acceptable in my opinion. I think at 18 months or so….depending on the child…a swift pop on the hand is ok. I am a proponent of spanking…but in small doses. I tend to think that its difficult to teach a child restraint and self control if the parent goes for a spanking before exhausting other options. Its a fine line to walk. But spanking a child who can’t even form a complete sentence is flirting with abuse….not to mention displaying a lack of sound parenting skills.

By So-So Concerned

October 2, 2008 8:49 AM | Link to this

I believe 10 months is appropriate. I wouldn’t call it spanking at that age, but I would tap his little hand once and say no. He will understand that if I continue to touch this my hand stings. Then “no” really becomes “no” to him.

By Dan

October 2, 2008 8:51 AM | Link to this

To have a rational conversation about this you need to define spank. 10 months does seem young but a quick pop on the butt just startles a child and lets them know you mean business, but doesn’t hurt them at all. Actually spanking so that a bit of pain is involved is completely different

By loveinstead

October 2, 2008 8:57 AM | Link to this

My daughter is 7 and she has only had one “mild spanking” in he entire life. That event happened when she jeopordized her safety @ age 5 and decided that she would walk home instead of to her babysitters several doors away. The sitter promptly found her and she was never in any real danger. The potential of course was there, and I felt that she needed a “wake up call”. She has never done anything like that since then. I feel as though a spanking in this situation was appropriate and effective. But simply put, I love her too much to hit her. No one wants to be hit…not even a child. Love, verbal discipline and setting boundaries work best in our home. Violence is not the solution!!

By Stephanie

October 2, 2008 9:00 AM | Link to this

I think it is appropriate to spank your child when they can truly comprehend the meanings of yes and no. Spanking is a form of discipline, and it does no good to discipline your child if they can’t comprehend what they are being disciplined for.

By Jeff

October 2, 2008 9:20 AM | Link to this

Kathy:

And the problem with being TERRIFIED of making a mistake is?????

Seriously, if a person is TERRIFIED of making a mistake, they are going to think long and hard about EVERY decision, and taking the extra time to do this is typically what leads to wiser decisions.

Your dad did you a favor, and you would be wise to head the lesson, even as an adult.

By TimeOutIsForSissies

October 2, 2008 9:26 AM | Link to this

Kathy: so- you grew up “TERRIFIED of making a mistake ever”? Sounds to me like the spanking worked - that is the goal! I guess you don’t want your kids growing up with a fear of making mistakes? That, to me, is bad parenting. (BTW - I agree that 10 months is too young to make a difference, but 18 months is not.)

By clyde

October 2, 2008 9:31 AM | Link to this

Spanking a child is never appropriate and it should be as againt the law as spanking an adult.See,the latter has been banned as cruel and unusual punishment,and if you were to go spank your errant adult neighbor ,you’d wind up charged with assault.Keep these two things inmind the next time you think about raising your hand to one of your children.And whatever you do,never get caught spanking one of mine.

By motherjanegoose

October 2, 2008 9:35 AM | Link to this

Off topic… THIS is why I am not crazy about video games….have any of you read this?
KINDERGARTEN KILLER

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081002/wrnm/usfinland_game

By Annie

October 2, 2008 9:36 AM | Link to this

Are we now judging someone, simply because they don’t conform to our way of doing things?

Everyone has different thoughts and ideals; this person knows their child better than anyone else and knows what does and doesn’t work.

I see people who refuse to spank their child and it’s the child running the show and not the parents.

Let her raise her child and you can worry about raising your own kids and we’ll all get along just fine!

By Vexorg

October 2, 2008 9:44 AM | Link to this

All of you missed the point…at WHAT AGE is it appropiate to spank a child?

I asked this question to a co-worker who has 4 children (very well behaved, I might add!)…he said, “When the child uses and UNDERSTANDS the meaning of the word NO.”

IMHO, a spanking (or corporal punishment) should only be administered in the most severe of transgressions and never as a punishment for a first time offense.

I can here the liberals in here now….”use of violence only teaches that violence is the only solution!”

I say to them, that if you teach your child that there are repercussions for negative behavior, chances are that society won’t have to put the child in jail later.

By Saying the news

October 2, 2008 9:45 AM | Link to this

Between the ages of 21 and 60, if you enjoy it.

By Logically Speaking

October 2, 2008 10:01 AM | Link to this

Loveinstead. Did I miss something? I don’t think a 5 year old should be trusted to walk anywhere unescorted by an adult….

By Hussein

October 2, 2008 10:16 AM | Link to this

Joanna, Spanking is child abuse? Really? Because the absence of proper discipline has resulted in out of control teenagers in our country. I’m sure your kids are perfect, right? They’re probably the kids we see everyday having hissy fits and lay screaming on the floor while you stand there and tell them not to do that. Go sell stupid somewhere else.

By Koz

October 2, 2008 10:18 AM | Link to this

I spank but not at 10 months, they simply don’t understand.

And spanking is a last resort, and when I do it, I make sure it’s felt.

By Stacey

October 2, 2008 10:28 AM | Link to this

I’m with the posters who say we need to define spank. I think it is appropriate and often necessary to pop a child (even as young as 10 mths) on the back of the hand after repeatedly saying no. While doing spanking the hand I would say “No, don’t touch the__”. I determine age of comprehension by whether the child tries to sneak and do whatever or if they stop doing it when the see me.

I define spanking as a swat (or several) to the bottom and I also think it is an appropriate form of discipline in some circumstances. My son is 7 and can count on one hand every spanking (not hand swat) he has ever received and why. I got spankings often growing up and while there are incidents where I don’t think I deserved to be spanked, they don’t nearly equal the number of time that I KNOW I should have & wasn’t.

By Theresa

October 2, 2008 10:35 AM | Link to this

We are definitely having technical problems — and apparently were yesterday as well. Deidre I wrote two long ones too that never showed up!! I hate that! — I am wondering if you guys are seeing funky fonts as well?? I am seeing bolded and capital fonts when I pull up the main blog page for MOMania that lists all the recent blogs — Are you guys seeing that?

By Reign

October 2, 2008 10:55 AM | Link to this

I spanked my children and I believe I probably started when they were like 4 or 5, can’t quite remember. It wasn’t often, it wasn’t while I was angry, it was always for something that could hurt them worse like playing with electrical outlets and it was always a little tap on the hands because it doesn’t take an all out beating for them to understand. I also would tell them why I was doing it whether they understood completely or not. They eventually got it and knew that doing certain things would get them in trouble even though they didn’t understand the concept of trouble, they understood they wouldn’t like what would happen to them if they did this or that.

Now, with my grandchildren, I said I wasn’t going to spank. Not that it wasn’t effective with my children, but because there’s so much hype about it, I thought I’d change it up. Well, my grandchildren are a little defiant and the 4 yr old told me No one day when I asked her to clean up the crackers she crunched up and threw all over the floor. I said, oh yes you will and I’m going to get my belt. I have never threatened them with a belt, but she was so defiant that I needed to get tough. So, I got the belt and when she saw it, her eyes got big and she immediately began picking up the mess and did a great job. Apparently, her mother and other grandmother have already introduced her to spanking and they probably don’t threaten. As she was picking up the mess, I turned and smiled to myself at how well my threat worked. When she was all done I told her that spilling food in the carpet could cause bugs and ants and she said “I’m sorry Grandma.” I said OK, but don’t do it again and I love you. And all was well. I didn’t have to spank, so now when they get out of hand, I threaten and for me it works because someone else must be following through and they don’t need everybody spanking on them.

By new mom

October 2, 2008 10:58 AM | Link to this

We are in the midst of this ourselves, with a one-year old who is curious, active, fast, and determined. We have to stay two steps ahead of her just to keep her safe. Thank goodness we have a basement to store practically everything decorative and dangerous! Even then, children will find something that interests them that could hurt them.

Our current method is this: when she grabs something after we told her NO, I take her hands in mine and give her hands a squeeze while saying NO again. I doubt I’m hurting her at all, but I’m trying to relate what she did with the NO. She’s also into biting. Last night she bit my husband on his hand and wouldn’t let go!! We said NO, squeezed her mouth/cheeks (again, not to hurt her, but to show her where the NO occurred) and put her in her crib for a time out.

Recently I read a study that showed that a majority of parents had misconceptions about when their child hit certain developmental milestones. A majority of parents thought that at 12 months, a child should know the difference from right and wrong! They don’t, at that age, but are just trying to test their boundries, explore, and learn to communicate. Her biting us (I believe) was her way of telling us she was mad at us. Of course we try to teach her it’s wrong, but to hit or hurt her because of it only reinforces the behavior.

Already at one year old, she copies things I do. When she recently spit up, as I was cleaning up, she took a paper towel and wiped the floor along with me. So if she sees us hit her, she will learn that that’s how we treat each other.

NOW, on the other side, if it’s a serious offense, and she’s old enough to know better (I’m guessing 2-5) then a calm and planned spanking is appropriate. Not out of anger, and not immediate, but when the parents can talk it out together, then have a sit-down with the child. I think it should be accompanied by an explanation as to why they deserved it, why it was wrong, and how to never do it again. I remember several such spankings when I was little—I got them just enough to teach me that I was NOT in charge of my house, but I had to obey my parents.

Those spankings hurt my overinflated ego more than my backside, and I think they served the purpose.

Sorry for such a rambling post! :)

By new mom

October 2, 2008 11:36 AM | Link to this

Jeff, there is a difference between learning from your mistakes as you grow up and being terrified of making a mistake, and I’m sure that deep down you know that difference.

A child who is terrified of making a mistake (and subsequently terrified of their parents) will likely grow to be a people pleaser, never confident in their own decisions, and scared to take any risks. Personally I hope that our daughter grows to be independent, self-directed, and strong, yet also loving and respectful of others. I don’t see how ‘terrified’ can be part of that equation.

By Katie

October 2, 2008 11:38 AM | Link to this

I can say that my two and a half year old has never been truly spanked in her entire life. Now, that is not to say that she has not recieved a swat on her behind to get her attention to the situation, but I do not think that there is anything a child that young should be spanked for, simply because to them, they do not understand why you are causing them pain and become more afraid of you than their bad behavior. My daughter is as stubborn as I am and does not respond well to time outs and is too young to understand what loss of privelages means. However, letting her behave badly and not have consequences to that is compeltly unacceptable and I would much rather instill in her now that there are consequences to doing things bad now, rather than when she is much older and REALLY in trouble.

As a mother and a former early childhood education major, I can tell you that each child is different and will respond to different methods of discipline differently. For some all it takes is time out and beign taken away from the situation, and for others a phsycial method to grab their attention is needed. Spanking should NEVER be used as a means to cause pain or discomfort, instead to be used as a way to call attention to this issue at hand.

I will say that as a FTM it hurts me far more than it hurts my daughter to give her a swat on the hand or the behind. As a mommy, I do not ever want my child to be in pain, much less me being the reason for it, but rationally you know that it is for their own good and it is easier to do than to be constantly having yoru child kicked out of schools, playgroups, and other associations because of their ill behavior.

By jakesdad

October 2, 2008 11:39 AM | Link to this

spanking is the nuclear weapon of discipline - option of last resort you hope you never use that if used means a situation has spiraled out of control but if it’s totally off the table and the other side (kids) know that you’re at an inherent disadvantage. mine have gotten a few (maybe 3-5 each) in their 5/4 yrs but they were for major/dangerous things they don’t get a warning/2nd chance at like when Jake kicked his barely 1 yr old sister under her chin, snapping her head back, when she was pulling herself up on the sofa learning to walk - that’s not something they get 3 strikes then a timeout for…

By Mel

October 2, 2008 11:48 AM | Link to this

Back to the original question…is 10 months too young? No, it is not too young for a light swat on the hand, accompanied with a sharp, verbal “NO.” Kids are very smart and learn young how to manipulate their parents. It is NEVER appropriate to beat a child, regardless of age or situation. I cannot claim to be a perfect parent and have crossed the line in anger a time or two myself… I can only thank God that my children have grown up to be respectful and productive members of society, just as I did (in spite of being spanked). There is a line between child abuse and spanking; this is what a parent must determine and not cross!

By AmazonRed

October 2, 2008 11:51 AM | Link to this

I was spanked as a child.

Spanking taught me that there are consequences for every action. Rationalization doesn’t always work, because kids don’t have developed cognizant skills.

It was understood that if you don’t do “X” then “Y” is the consequence. Easy to understand. I was never spanked “just because.”

I have a great relationship with my parents and harbor no ill feelings because I was spanked. I learned boundaries and to think about consequences of my actions before doing.

(and I got my little behind tore up sometimes too).

By JJ

October 2, 2008 12:03 PM | Link to this

Good Lord, I still swat my 17 year old on the butt. When she does something really stupid, I smack her when she is walking pass me.

newMomIf you are having trouble with the little one biting, bite her back. I did that, ONCE, and my kid never bit again. I didn’t bite her hard, but after she bit me, I grabbed her arm and bit her. It worked.

By Noelle

October 2, 2008 12:24 PM | Link to this

My sister and I were spanked with a belt when we were children — but ONLY when we were being defiantly disobedient. We were never “terrified of doing something wrong” or of our parents, but we knew where the line was between doing something wrong and serious disobedience, and we rarely crossed it.

I believe a child should not be spanked for mild disobedience (beyond a quick pop on the butt), or for doing something he or she doesn’t yet know is wrong. Some children shouldn’t be spanked at all, simply because it doesn’t work. I always responded better to having privileges taken away than to spankings.

As for the original question, no 10-month-old is old enough to make the connection between a spanking and whatever they did wrong. All they’ll learn from the experience is “Mommy hit me!” If a baby is “getting into” something, then you cut off the access to whatever it is. Expecting self control from an infant is completely unreasonable.

By McLoving

October 2, 2008 12:26 PM | Link to this

At any age because im still getting spanked at 21!

By Old School

October 2, 2008 12:27 PM | Link to this

I was raised in a very stern household with no love or affection. If I misbehved, I was spanked, or beaten with a belt. As time went on, the spankings & beatings lessened because it was obvious that there was a cause-and-effect situation: You misbehave, you get hit. Duh. Yes, I grew up very fearful but-I also grew up to be a law-abiding citizen who is a team player at work. While I’ve seen co-workers get canned for attitude problems, I’ve managed to retain my position, even in this troubling economy. I still live without “love”, always have, & that’s fine. I’d rather have a roof over my head & the knowledge I can take care of myself. You hippy-dippy, touchy-feely New Age parents who keep giving your unruly brats hugs & time-outs, please don’t be shocked when your little pweshus becomes a hardened criminal because he or she has been raised to believe “It’s all about me & the heck with everyone else”. Is it any wonder why kids are now turning to violent crime at earlier & earlier ages??

By SWMarietta

October 2, 2008 12:30 PM | Link to this

Women in their 30’s seem to enjoy being spanked.

By All About Love

October 2, 2008 12:38 PM | Link to this

I’m appalled at some of the posts here, and you call yourselves PARENTS? No one, child or adult, should ever be hit, no matter what the circumstances. As love begets love, violence only begets more violence. I don’t believe in “self-defense” either; it’s a crock. If your teen assualts you, it’s because they’re troubled & crying out for love. Don’t strike the child, take them in your arms & give comfort. Whatever harm anyone does you, just smile & let it go. Believe me, the Universe will take care of everyone & everything. Peace.

By Jill

October 2, 2008 12:43 PM | Link to this

My parents spanked my brother and me when we did something that deserved a spanking. Heaven forbid little Johnny should be disciplined for doing something he did wrong…it just may hurt his feeewings. rolls eyes

By new mom

October 2, 2008 12:47 PM | Link to this

This week’s cage match: Old School vs. All About Love. My money is on Old School, winning by way of a severe beating, while All About Love tries to hug him to death…

Seriously, these are two examples of taking the extreme on a position. Like most issues, there should be moderation in your thinking and the flexibility to do what’s best for you and your family. Two of the most dangerous words we can utter: ‘always’ and ‘never’. They will always come back to bite you in the booty. :D

By WOHM

October 2, 2008 12:47 PM | Link to this

Sorry All about love if my teen were to assualt me, I am going to fight back and then send his/jher butt straight to jail.

10 months is not to young to give them a swat on the butt as long as they are wearing a diaper. Just to startle them…No and time outs only work for somethings. At times you need to startle them to get their attention.

By Jeff

October 2, 2008 12:49 PM | Link to this

All about love:

You’re crock full of sh@t!!!

But then, I work for a DA… do you REALLY want to see what your advice leads to?

Just a hint: I’ve had cases I’ve personally worked where a nephew MURDERED his uncle to steal $500 from him, where a husband MURDERED the wife who was trying to leave him, where one underage cousin RAPED another underage cousin, where a dad SEXUALLY ASSAULTED his 12yo daughter.

And I’ve only been on this job for 2 months!!!

REALITY is that this world is an awfully dark place, and sometimes you have to stop one evil with another. Violence may be a bad thing, but if I have to kill a man to protect my family, I hope the dude rots in HADES!

By Denise

October 2, 2008 12:58 PM | Link to this

I don’t have any children (yet…keep your fingers crossed!) but I believe that spanking and beating are two different things. To me, a spanking is a pop that gives the child an immediate response to their action. If a child is walking up to the hot stove, a quick pop on the hand while saying “no” is not abusive and I think is appropriate. A beating, to me, is one of those “wait ‘til your father gets home” type of deals where the kid gets his/her butt tore out the frame after the fact as a severe punishment. I remember one “beating” and that was in the 3rd grade for not turning my papers back in to my teacher so I didn’t get my report card when I was supposed to. My mama beat me with a brown belt with green flowers (yes that was over 25 years ago and I remember!). It did nothing but hurt me at that time. I didn’t learn anything that stuck other than “mama has a belt and she’s not shy about using it” because I’m still disorganized and have clutter (my papers were balled up at the bottom of my book bag, which looks no different than my desk at work!). I did learn from the quick pops what should not be done.

It’s a matter of whether the child can understand, whether the child can consciously adjust behaviors once they learn the consequences, and the intent of the lesson. If the lesson is to teach consequences, okay. If the lesson is to HURT in order to teach fear and consequences, it’s not okay at all.

By MomsRule

October 2, 2008 1:00 PM | Link to this

My post from almost 4 hours ago hasn’t show up yet so, yes, there are technical issues :), the entire column has been in bold several times as well.

Spanking a 10 month old is just plain wrong IMO.

I have a question for everyone related to today’s topic.

Can anyone help me understand the logic in the following scenario?

Little Johnny comes home from school where he has been in trouble for hitting another student.

Mom and Dad spank little Johnny for hitting said child at school because it is wrong.

Someone please explain to me how hitting your child to teach them not to hit is the correct course of action.

I’m serious. I have friends who do this and I really can not get my arms around this thinking….

By MountainDawg

October 2, 2008 1:02 PM | Link to this

“All About Love” - Gimme a break! It’s that kind of milquetoast, weak-minded lack of discipline that have yielded a generation+ of disrespectful, defiant brats! While spanking shouldn’t always be the 1st option, it’s definitely merited at times.

By Sugar

October 2, 2008 1:03 PM | Link to this

It’s a freaking spanking for crying out loud.

It isn’t corporal punishment, it isn’t child abuse, etc. It’s a swat on the fanny. Even a 10 month old needs one.

All about love You are an idiot. I guess the Columbine killers just needed a hug. I guess all “evil” people just really needed a hug. Why don’t you start “Hug a Thug? I’m sure that was the problem.

By Jill

October 2, 2008 1:04 PM | Link to this

I saw a child the other day STANDING ON A TABLE in a restaurant SCREAMING at the top of his lungs while his “mother” talked on a cell phone and tried to eat while he stepped over her plate. Ready for the really appalling thing: This kid was about 6 years old! I swear I thought folks were going to bust out of the kitchen with cameras and shout “Surprise, you patrons are on Hidden Camera!!!!”….neverhappened.

By joey

October 2, 2008 1:09 PM | Link to this

Spanking age?

19 to 24, female, long pretty hair, and a well formed posterior. Preferably wearing garter and thong…or nothing works well too.

By Mr. Nice Guy

October 2, 2008 1:12 PM | Link to this

Most of these comments are made in the South, the most conservative part of the Union, who favor Waterboarding but not spanking.

By Barry

October 2, 2008 1:17 PM | Link to this

I think the earlier the better. Spare the rod spoil the child.This is what’s wrong whit America today.The government has stepped in to stop Parents from spanking their own children,and have taken it out of the school system.If a child knows there will be no remorse he(she) will move to the next level as in give an inch they take a mile. You have to teach a child to do right never do you teach them to do wrong.

By Saying the news

October 2, 2008 1:21 PM | Link to this

All about love….you are a retarded moron. I bet you are all for Obama Lama and his drivle also. I bet you have a War is Not the Answer bumper sticker on your car. I say beat the hell out of them and they will remember the pain and know what to expect if they indulge in the type of behaviour that caused the beating. In fact I will invite you over to my house and Iwill beat the hell out of you and I promise you want come over to my house anymore….see it works. I guess we just need to give Al Queda a hug and they will come over here and say they are sorry for killing over 3000 of our folks….It is people like you that have make society the sick place it is….Hug my a*.

By lakerat

October 2, 2008 1:25 PM | Link to this

Did you know that I am so arrogant that the strength of my arrogance is so strong that it might actually be my weakness….whatever that means….but I know one thing I am so much better than any of you people……you all sicken me.

Anyone who disagrees with my beliefs should be gang raped.

By DB

October 2, 2008 1:29 PM | Link to this

I’ll chime in with most of the others here and agree — 10 months is too young to spank, if by spanking you mean a slap to the butt (for one thing, the diaper pretty much absorbs it!) They really do not know any better at 10 months, and really, up until about 2, they are running purely on curiosity, not out of a sense of doing something they ought not.

And that is my defining moment for spanking — when they do something that they know they ought not. That comes about 2 years old, maybe a little older. And by “spank”, I mean a well-placed swat or two on the bottom or on top of the legs, not repeated beating. Just enough to break their concentration on what they are doing, get their attention and express your dismay. It shouldn’t be something that’s used every day — it should be so unique that it makes a definite impression. I think I can count on one hand the number of times I had to spank my children. And I stopped when they got to the point where I could use basic reasoning skills with them — about 5 or so, whe they start school.

By MD

October 2, 2008 1:38 PM | Link to this

They are never to young to spank. 1 month to a year a swat to the diaper is fine. 1yr - 3yrs a bare hand to the legs. 3yrs - 5 yrs a switch. 5yrs and up gets the belt to various parts of the backside.

By Mattie

October 2, 2008 1:43 PM | Link to this

I think anybody who would hit a 10 month old should be reported to Child Protective Services. Even if the intent was not to hurt the child, that parent is in dire need of parenting classes. Nobody should spank. I’ve raised three boys without it, and and it can successfully be done! When they are little, you remove the child from the temptation, or the temptation from the child. As they get a little older, send them to their rooms. I did this by the age of two or so. My kids were always outside playing, and it was a true punishment to take them away from the action. Now they are great kids, in fact my neighbor, with two little ones, asked me if they were spanked because they are so well behaved. She was amazed when I told her no. Now, today you so rarely see kids playing outside, the threat of grounding them may not be as effective. Still works for me though, my 16 yr old will not be going out this weekend after failing to call with his whereabouts last Saturday. I’m not a pushover, and the kids know it.

By motherjanegoose

October 2, 2008 1:46 PM | Link to this

Jill…this is what I mean when I say that children are out of control. I am so sorry this happened to you and the fellow diners…I HATE it when children are unruly in restaurants…this Mama would be the same one to tell the Kindergarten teacher that her son never has any issues….LOL. Off to the airport!

By Sugar

October 2, 2008 1:49 PM | Link to this

There is a huge difference between hitting and spanking.

When you HIT someone, you ball up your fist, and have the intent to hurt.

When you SPANK a child, you use an open hand, and do it to get their attention, and/or to disclipine them.

Spanking should not be reported to child protection. That’s just stupid. You have to deal with DFACs your entire life because someone reported you for disclipining your child. Your child is taken away from you and placed into the government’s hand. Just take a look at Fulton County DFACs department and them come tell me you are going to report someone for spanking a child.

By Meat is cheap

October 2, 2008 1:51 PM | Link to this

My dad beat me with a belt and I turned out fine. Good job, MBA, nice house and family. I plan on continuing the tradition, so hopefully our kids turn out as well as I did.

By Nobama

October 2, 2008 1:52 PM | Link to this

In this age of computers, video games, HDTV, cellphones, etc., I think a better punishment is “DON’T go to your room”. Spank ‘em and send ‘em out to the backyard for a half an hour with no media devices.

By Pauli

October 2, 2008 1:58 PM | Link to this

I say trow da little brats a beatin everyday wheather they need it or not. It’ll make em strong.

By Leona

October 2, 2008 2:00 PM | Link to this

A lesson learned always came from a good beatin……

Kids need to be taught there are consequences to their bevavior. You act up, you gonna get beat down.

By MotherANDFather

October 2, 2008 2:04 PM | Link to this

The only thing more effective than the spanking when I grew up was the phrase “wait till your father gets home”. Too bad this doesn’t work today with all these kids growing up in fatherless households. If women would stop having kids with baby-daddies and/or stop getting divorced from their husbands so quickly just because “they’re not happy anymore - waaaaaaaah!” the kids would have stable 2-parent households to be raised in and we wouldn’t have so many discipline problems.

By Calm Down

October 2, 2008 2:08 PM | Link to this

People, it’s obvious “All About Love” is a troll & is just yanking our chains. Anyone who truly “thinks”(?!?!)like that does so as a result of whatever drugs he must have ingested in the 60’s & 70’s & believe me, no one that far-gone can even string 2 sentences together, let alone operate a computer. Jeff, that’s awful!!! I truly feel for you, having to witness that every day & knowing there’s not a heck of a lot you, or anyone, can do about it. Well, thank the bleeding-heart climate we live in where “discipline” & “responsibility” are dirty words

By Jeff

October 2, 2008 2:20 PM | Link to this

Calm Down:

Fortunately, with my job I get to at least FEEL like I’m doing something about it. I get to assist in the prosecution of the crime…

Mattie:

As someone else said, there is a difference between ‘hitting’ and ‘spanking’. TRUST me, if I see someone HITTING a kid, they’d better HOPE getting a cop involved is ALL I do.

HOWEVER, if that same someone is SPANKING that kid, I’m going to assume the kid had done something to warrant it and the person is the parent or parent representative and is doing their responsible job as such.

I think we can ALL agree that HITTING a kid is wrong. What the more liberal among us fail to see is that there is nothing wrong with a sound SPANKING.

By Kathy

October 2, 2008 2:23 PM | Link to this

Jeff and Timeoutisforsissies: Without going into too much history, my father is a recovered alcoholic (20 years sober, and a wonderful father now) and mistakes/misbehaviors were blown WAY out of proportion in my house when I was growing up. My dad’s reactions were so unpredictable and off the charts, that yes, my brother and I were very scared to make mistakes. We were given no “life lesson talks” or any chance to learn from our mistakes, only the fear that Dad would probably beat the crap out of us when he got home. That fear has caused me to be extremely type-A and a perfectionist to a sometimes unhealthy extreme. I am VERY hard on myself and afraid of failure. After one failed marriage and lots of therapy about 10 years ago, I am better, but still have to remind myself that if I make a mistake it will be okay as long as I fix it and learn something from it.

I don’t want my child to grow up with an unhealthy fear of making mistakes. Yes, a little fear is good, but not to the degree that I have experienced growing up. I also don’t want her to grow up being afraid and untrusting of me. Two things that took me too many years to overcome with my Dad (who by the way is my best friend now after much therapy and a wonderful father and grandfather). Do I have some emotional baggage or what?!?!?! Didn’t mean to lay all that on y’all, but I needed to get my point across. :)

By MomsRule

October 2, 2008 2:29 PM | Link to this

The words “Wait Until Your Father Gets Home” will never cross my lips. They are one of the stupidest things a Mother can say.

Talk about undermining your own authority.

By Joe Blow

October 2, 2008 2:30 PM | Link to this

Hey if we had a dog that chewed up our living rooms, we would all beat it - right. So whats the big deal with beating a kid that messes up? For instance if the little snit forgets to take out the trash we should beat him right?

By JJ

October 2, 2008 2:32 PM | Link to this

MotherANDFather Why don’t you put some of that blame on the men who impregnant women, then take off????? Blame the deadbeat dads, who have nothing to do with the children they create and leave behind.

Quit blaming women for the divorce. It takes two…..

By Monica

October 2, 2008 3:44 PM | Link to this

The words “Wait Until Your Father Gets Home” will never cross my lips. They are one of the stupidest things a Mother can say.

My mother used to take care of business, and then say it!! I agree with you MomsRule. I have two boys, and I think it particularly important for moms to let their boys know that they can handle it without dad.

Spanking should be left to the discretion of each parent, though I do think that 10 months old is too young for a “spanking.” However, I think popping a little hand that repeatedly touches something it shouldn’t is okay, and not considered spanking but conditioning.

By MotherANDFather

October 2, 2008 3:44 PM | Link to this

JJ - If the men are deadbeats, why would you allow them to “impregnant” you?

By La Shawna

October 2, 2008 3:58 PM | Link to this

Obama Wins in 29 Days-

Vote Obama For GOOD CHANGE

By La Shawna

October 2, 2008 4:03 PM | Link to this

Great Day to be an American— the Bush Oppression is nearing and End!!!! No More spanking!!

Our SAvior of the world Barack is the NEXT PRSIEDENT OF THE USA!!!!

By La Shawna

October 2, 2008 4:09 PM | Link to this

For the first time in my life I am proud to be anmerican wher at least I know Im free!! Ill stand up and fight for the!!

WOO HOO

Shout out to Obama!!!!!

By CommunistAJC

October 2, 2008 4:19 PM | Link to this

All About Love, You should be hit by a car.

By Rod

October 2, 2008 4:34 PM | Link to this

I say beat the child until they can’t sit down! Well not really. I think you need to spank a child sometimes but if you leave marks or hit them in the face then you have gone to far and need to be whupped your dang self;)

By La Shawna

October 2, 2008 4:35 PM | Link to this

HA HAHAHAH America— We are about to get our first elected Communist President and there is nothing you can do about it!!!!

By Magenta

October 2, 2008 4:40 PM | Link to this

I didn’t spank my son too often, and not younger than 2 years, but as another poster remarked, it is sometimes the only way to get their attention when they’re just out of control.

Parents should never rely on it, though. I know one couple who became parents in their teens; they were uneducated, poor and frustrated, so when they were having a bad day, they made sure the kids had a bad day too. Especially the older child, a boy. This kid was having serious behavior problems by the time he was 14 — the parents began saying “He needs more spankin’s.” By the time he was 20 he’d already been in an inpatient psych hospital, with several professionals pleading with the parents to stop the violence. I don’t know if they ever “got it” since I lost touch with them after awhile. I also remember they had a small dog and the husband treated it in a similar fashion. Soon the wife started saying “I guess he’s a typical dachsund. Just vicious, biting all the time…” Duhhh.

By Frank

October 2, 2008 4:46 PM | Link to this

I don’t spank my children but I regularly spank my wife. OH YEAH!!!

She loves it, and she frequently begs me to spank her harder. She can’t get enough.

So I say, don’t spank your children! Instead, spank your wife.

By Communist AJC Fan

October 2, 2008 4:53 PM | Link to this

“All About Love” probably lives on a commune somewhere in the middle of noplace where there aren’t any cars because, like, the emissions are, like, totally bad for the environment, man

By Frank

October 2, 2008 4:59 PM | Link to this

And, if you woman asks for it, give her a good spanking. I think you know what I mean.

By Craig

October 2, 2008 5:51 PM | Link to this

I have five kids and I spanked them all until they were about 8 years old. We started spanking when we felt they could understand basic commands which was usually around 14 months old. The spankings were done with a paddle most of the time but sometimes with a belt when they were 6-7 years old. Our rule for spanking was that is was never done in anger and was done only for WILLFULL disobedience and NOT childish behavior. they are great kids today and I know that a big part of it is because of the dicipline we imposed on them.

By Numbers Guy

October 2, 2008 6:13 PM | Link to this

Beatings have no place in raising kids. Spanking, OTOH, is an irreplaceable parenting tool.

Parenting is a never-ending exercise in behavior modification. That process requires both carrot AND stick to work properly. Spanking, used correctly with other rewards/punishments, is appropriate as early as the child can grasp the cause-effect relationship, and as late as it remains effective. That’s really variable child to child.

That said, I have probably spanked my 7YO about 3 times in his life. I can now usually accomplish what I need with a single look. Would the look work if he didn’t know darn well I’d follow it up with escalating moves, and that his physical discomfort was still on the table? Don’t make me laugh. That kind of fuzzy expectation leads to little turds like the one Jill encountered.

All about love, if you’re serious, I’m a tad upset that my kid is gonna have to overcome the distraction of the undisciplined, self-centered mess that you’ll be dumping into his classroom, and later into his workplace. Like, peace out, man!

By sld

October 2, 2008 6:25 PM | Link to this

Start spanking them when they are young and you won’t have to do it later. You can’t talk to a 10 month old and make them understand something. A spanking says “that hurts so I won’t do that again”. When children were spanked we had far fewer problems. I’m a teacher and I can point out the children who are spanked. They can be corrected because they don’t enjoy the punishment of notes home. The ones who are grounded or bargained with are absolutely unable to be corrected. You must spank until they are old enough to listen and understand what is going on. It won’t hurt them. Those of us who were spanked learned lessons. Those who weren’t are the ones who are out of control.

By mommababy

October 2, 2008 8:06 PM | Link to this

Huh. In the animal world, mothers regularly swat the little guys (not to hurt them, to get their attention). If you aren’t hitting hard enough to bruise or hurt or break their hearts, what’s inappropriate? We have to teach our babies to live in the real world—and that means if they act badly or inappropriately, there are consequences.

SAVE PARENTING GUILT FOR TRULY OFFENSIVE BEHAVIOR! For reasonable parents, that’s maybe 3-5 times in 15 years!

By mom of 4

October 3, 2008 7:34 AM | Link to this

Just look at our kids today. They are out of control. I was spanked as a child growing up in the 60’s. I knew how far to push my parents but when they had enough I was spanked. I turned out fine. I was never scared of my parents, but had a healty respect for them. I have friends that teacher high school and they told me the other day that we have raised a bunch of brats. They are not respoinsible for any of their actions. I have been around people where a 6 year old distrubted a whole resturant because she could not make up her mind if she want to sit by her mother or her sister. Nothing was ever done and the child was out of control. This also in not first time I have been around her and it is always like this, but her mother does not believe in spanking. Well. I don’t really want to be around her child anymore. I DO NOT BELIEVE IN ABUSE, but a spanking is not the end of the world. I think it is a good wake up call. Remember these kids are who is going to take us when we are all older.

By stop brutality

October 3, 2008 8:11 AM | Link to this

Adults beating up little children (i.e. spanking) is never, ever, ever, ever, ever appropriate. People should never beat up their pets either. Using your unfair physical advantage to dominate lesser beings is inexcusable and morally wrong.

By Jeff

October 3, 2008 9:00 AM | Link to this

stop brutality:

Again, the only way to TRULY stop brutality is to train kids to USE brutality appropriately.

When the mugger with a gun comes up to YOUR kid in a dark alley, the BEST you can hope for is that he loses all his money. More than likely, you’re going to be going to your son’s funeral.

Same mugger, same gun, same alley, MY kid. The mugger’s parents will be the ones going to their kid’s funeral.

As I’ve said before: If I can politely ask you to stop and you do, GREAT. If I have to put you in the hospital - or the morgue - to stop you, so be it. Regardless, you WILL stop.

By CP

October 3, 2008 9:06 AM | Link to this

I missed this yesterday?! Wow. Well, I’ll put my .02 in now.

Yes, there is a difference (as so many others have pointed out) between beating a child & spanking them. Spanking is a form of discipline while beating is abuse. I was spanked as a child (not beaten) and my children (not including my 7 mon old) have had spankings before. I don’t recall getting spanked too often when I was younger. It was regulated so that it would have more impact also. I’d be sent to my room to “think about what I’d done.” That was about 5-10 min. or so, but I think now that I look back, that was probably a cooling-off period for my parent(s) as well so they didn’t tear into me in anger. Then they’d come in, discuss what I’d done, spank my butt (one swat for each year I was old) let me cry in my room or come out depending on my choice. Then afterwards I’d say I was sorry. I don’t know if that was mandatory but I always felt contrite afterward. I do remember the last part was whomever it was that did the spanking would tell me that what I’d done was wrong but they still loved me.

I try to follow the same guidelines with my own children. But even so, I think spanking doesn’t work for every child, it might not even be neccessary. Spanking should be a last resort. I know that whenever they’ve said something they shouldn’t have (saying mean things to one another, etc.) then I’ve popped them on the mouth. Not punched them but used the tips of my fingers & lightly swatted their lips. It doesn’t hurt them but they see it as insulting - which is what they were doing.

I don’t remember the last time my son got a spanking. He’s the oldest & responds better to privelages taken away (no tv, no playing outside, no video games…) I remember he did something outrageous that really p*ed me off so he spent a weekend in his room (he has no tv, phone, or computer in there) doing nothing but reading. That works better for him.

My oldest daughter is a natural-born pleaser. She hates to be told that I’ve been disappointed in her. I can just threaten her with a spanking & she usually straightens up. Her typical form of punishment is being sent to her room for 5 min. or so.

My middle daughter is the terror & the source of most of my gray hairs. She’s the most willful, independent thing. I know that will be an asset in life to not follow the crowd & be strong-minded, but for now it can be stressful. She does get the most spankings but we try to go through the other punishments first. The one that I use with her is putting her nose in a corner.

As far as my baby, I’ve never spanked her, although I’m sure there will come a time for it. But I don’t think it would be “spanking” to swat her on the diaper - not hard enough to hurt but just to get her attention.

The punishment should fit the “crime.” I absolutely hate spanking my children whenever I’ve done it. But I don’t feel like I’m abusing them either.

By VoiceOfReason

October 3, 2008 9:36 AM | Link to this

To answer the question: 2!!!!

By Jesse's Girl

October 3, 2008 10:12 AM | Link to this

Ah, Jeff is back in all his glorious splendor. All I can say Jeff is, I hope all your super-hero-offspring-training isn’t spolied by the fact that your little ninja ends up being a panzy. But I am endlessly entertained by your over confidence. I do hope that you will be the first parent in history to have a child turn out EXACTLY like they want them to.

By Jeanne

October 3, 2008 10:26 AM | Link to this

Kathy, you don’t owe anyone an explaination. If people think it is OK to be TERRIFIED of making a mistake, nothing you can say will penetrate their ignorance. NO ONE SHOULD EVER BE TERRIFIED OF MAKING A MISTAKE. It is how we learn. Should Thomas Edison have been beaten over 1,000 times for failing to create a lighbulb until he finally got it right? There is no reasoning with stupidity.

By motherjanegoose

October 3, 2008 10:30 AM | Link to this

A quick check in from SLC and I have a hearty AMEN to Jesse’s Girl. Readers…let’s have a show of hands as to who thought they knew everything about children until they had their own. I remember teaching for 5 years ( without my own children) and telling the parents all sorts of things. They would roll their eyes and say, “wait until you have your own children…!” You know what? they were right and I was WRONG. Having your own children does open your eyes. Have a super weekend!

By new mom

October 3, 2008 10:38 AM | Link to this

Amen, Jeanne, I was going to mention Edison yesterday but didn’t (I have a tendency to ramble and I try to keep it short, believe it or not!) but when Edison was asked about the thousands of failed attempts, he told a reporter “I have not failed. I’ve discovered ten thousand ways which don’t work.” I don’t know anyone who would be that persistent in achieving their goal these days, does anyone else?

Anyone ready for a Friday change of subject? Not that I have any suggestions… ;) The thing I’m wondering today, where do all those passies go? Are they with that missing sock? We went from 8 to 3 over the course of the week. Riveting subject, I’m sure….

By Jeff

October 3, 2008 10:39 AM | Link to this

Jeanne:

Which do you want operating on your kid:

The doc that is terrified of making a mistake, or the doc that ‘learns from his mistakes’?

Here’s a tip: The one that is terrified of making mistakes to begin with is going to learn FAR faster and FAR more permanently from any mistake he DOES make than the one who ‘learns from his mistakes’.

By JJ

October 3, 2008 10:50 AM | Link to this

Mother Are you in Salt Lake City? I LOVE it there. SLC was my second home. My parents are both from there, both graduated from the U of U, (go Utes) and my grandparents too. My father is buried out there, up in the Avenues.

Bring me back some snow please!!!!! I wish I was there. Have you been to Park City? I almost shucked the corporate world to move out there and run one of the shops….

By Jeff

October 3, 2008 10:55 AM | Link to this

Eh, as far as change of subject:

Has anyone else seen Fireproof yet?

If you haven’t, I HIGHLY recommend it. It is from the makers of Facing the Giants, and these guys only get better and better with every movie they make!

By new mom

October 3, 2008 10:59 AM | Link to this

Jeff, you are completely missing the points we are trying to make. We’re talking about how children develop and learn, not how adults conduct their lives. Children need to have the freedom to make mistakes AS CHILDREN, learn from them, and then move on. We’re not talking about adults making mistakes on the job.

Here’s a personal example: I was able to coast through school, until I hit college. I never learned to study until then, because I never had the need to. I had to learn that skill quickly, and made straight As in college after my first semester. Had I not gone through that, I would not have ever developed study habits, would not have made those good grades, not known the true sense of accomplishment gained from working hard, and not have the eye for detail or perseverance I have today.

I seriously doubt children who were TERRIFIED of making mistakes are the kind who would have ever dreamed of going to med school and becoming a doctor…but the ones who worked hard as children, learned from failures, and grew in their determination are the doctors I want. I don’t want someone who is terrified to operate on me, I want someone who is confident and strong. And that confidence comes from a varied life experience, not just past perfection.

Any other law & order junkies out there? I am picturing Jeff as a parent being like that guy who kidnapped his two girls and dominated their lives, remarried a completely submissive woman who was scared to death of him….remember that episode? http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0629448/ He also sat with his daughter while she learned to tie her shoes…for two hours! Anyone else remember this episode?

Told y’all I could ramble…

By Jesse's Girl

October 3, 2008 11:01 AM | Link to this

LOVE Park City!!!! Had the pleasure of doing some promotions there. As for snow…..bring it on! My kids loved it when we got our little “blizzard” last Feb or Mar.

By nurse&mother

October 3, 2008 11:01 AM | Link to this

I certainly do not condone beating an infant (or any child for that matter), but there is nothing wrong with a little swat to a fanny. I don’t think I did this to either of mine until they were about 18 months old. I did (like others) pop their hands probably a little earlier. This did not hurt them and helped them to understand that I was serious about “no”.

I am surprised that only one or two others pointed out that you cannot reason with a toddler. All of your college level reasoning does not work with them. They do however understand a little swat to the backside. It probably hurts their pride more than their buttocks, but I guarantee this will not scar them for life.

I realize that their are some posters whose parents may have crossed a line in spanking. In those situations, spanking was not used correctly. There is a huge difference in spanking and beating.

I do think that the children of today have not been disciplined enough. Too many wild kids think that life owes them something. I suspect parents made them think that they are a prince or princess.

Anyway, I would like to comment more, but I feel like I am having a flight of ideas. I have lots of errands to run today, so I must get off the computer.

Have a great weekend all!

By new mom

October 3, 2008 11:08 AM | Link to this

We haven’t gone to the movies since little one was born… :( But we are going out to eat tomorrow night!! woo hoo, hubby lined up a babysitter (my parents) and we will eat in peace.

The trailer for fireproof looks good, I read a story about how Kirk Cameron (my own childhood crush) had his wife be the stand-in for the kissing scenes. How sweet!!!

By motherjanegoose

October 3, 2008 11:11 AM | Link to this

yes, I am in SLC and heading to Idaho. It is warm here today but the scenery is grand! Got to get to work!

By Jeff

October 3, 2008 11:11 AM | Link to this

Actually, confidence comes from doing the right thing over and over, even when others are DETERMINED to show you that you are wrong.

Sound familiar?

I’ve made a few mistakes in my day, but guess what? It is because I INTENTIONALLY work to AVOID mistakes that I don’t make NEAR as many as most people.

It is why I am ALREADY regarded with a degree of respect from many people that you typically don’t see in someone TWICE my age.

People that ACTUALLY know me know that because I refuse to fail and ABHOR mistakes, I tend to be cautious yet generous, and when I do act it is a surgical strike that furthers my overall objective.

Many of y’all call me foolish because you don’t see how I LIVE what I preach.

The ones that DO see me live what I preach call me wise beyond my years.

By Jesse's Girl

October 3, 2008 11:11 AM | Link to this

17th anniversary staring me in the face…..and I have yet to get a gift. So….off for the weekend guys. See you all MOnday!!!

By Lynn

October 3, 2008 11:22 AM | Link to this

What’s going on with ol’ Jeff? Last I heard he was an IT technician, now he’s assisting the DA’s office? Whatever builds his ego for the day and makes him think he’s got a relevant post, I guess.

By new mom

October 3, 2008 11:23 AM | Link to this

Jeff, I am surprised to read that you made mistakes in your day. Well, just a ‘few’. I assumed you were born perfect, potty-trained and all.

I readily and happily admit that I’ve made lots of mistakes. Lots and lots. I learned from them and moved on, but I wouldn’t trade those experiences for the world. They made me who I am today, and also made me HUMBLE. Perhaps you come across more humble in real life, to garner such awe from those who know you.

I sure am ready to move on, are you? :)

By Jeff

October 3, 2008 11:23 AM | Link to this

newmom:

I’m actually going to have to go back and rewatch it, as much of the first time was spent figuring out exactly where things were, seeing if we spotted anyone we knew, etc. (Pitfalls of living in the town that the movie was made in and where much of the community was involved in the movie in some way. Of course, the advantage is that I have a daily reminder of the lessons of the movie, as I literally drive right by the firehouse every day and in fact park nearly directly behind it.)

There were a couple of scenes that had me in tears, but probably not where you’re thinking.

TRUST me, even if you have to wait until this thing comes out on DVD and watch it after the little one has gone to sleep, this is something that EVERY couple needs to see.

By Jeff

October 3, 2008 11:26 AM | Link to this

JG:

Happy anniversary!

Lynn:

I’m the IT tech for the DA’s office. I’ve been here for 2.5 months.

By lakerat

October 3, 2008 11:27 AM | Link to this

Anyone for me getting on Jeff the way I did MJGoose a couple of weeks ago? Nah, I’ll let it go!!!!!

By new mom

October 3, 2008 11:37 AM | Link to this

BTW—I may come across as harsh to our friend Jeff, but this board would be boring without some differences of opinion, right? ;) so Jeff, thanks for chiming in! I always enjoy it!

Y’all have a good day, I’ve got a lot of Friday stuff to do too.

By HB

October 3, 2008 12:22 PM | Link to this

“I am surprised that only one or two others pointed out that you cannot reason with a toddler. All of your college level reasoning does not work with them. They do however understand a little swat to the backside.”

See, I don’t understand what people mean by reasoning. Do you mean talking to them, and if so, what would be college-level about that? Because very young children do understand a lot. I’ve worked with a lot of kids and any kid old enough to understand a swat to the hand (I’d say as young as 10 months) also understands voice tone, facial expressions, and body language. A stern look and serious tone when they do something wrong, and a smile and sweet voice go a long way in discouraging/encouraging behavior for babies. Will you have to do it repeatedly and consistantly? Probably, but you know what? That first little swat to the hand usually won’t “condition” a child either. Children as young as 18 months can start to understand specific choices too. Not “be good color on the paper, not than the wall”, but rather “color on the paper and have fun, or color on the wall and mommy will take away the crayon” and then actually follow up with that action immediately — not after repeated warnings. And don’t give it back when she starts crying. They can learn the sadness of losing a toy or having to sit alone in a corner for a few minutes as a consequence just as well as they can learn the fear of being hit.

By MomsRule

October 3, 2008 1:05 PM | Link to this

HB, well said.

By Becky

October 3, 2008 2:33 PM | Link to this

JG, happy anniversary…

By nurse&mother

October 3, 2008 4:03 PM | Link to this

HB-maybe I should explain myself a little better. I do believe in explaining things to a child, but one needs to be brief about it. When I wrote my last post (which you quoted me) I had this image of some of my friends (which I’ve seen) give ax explaination that one would give a high school or college student. I have first hand experience of women in their 30’s (friends of mine) who try to give their two year old child a ten minute lecture on why it’s dangerous to climb the cabinets in the kitchen (or fill in the blank). These parents go on and on with a child who is clearly not listening and is tuning them out.

I am not undermining a child’s intelligence, but toddlers are not going to completely understand a parent giving details as to why something is not safe.

I certainly used and still use time out, but that doesn’t always work. Sometimes in the grocery store you can’t say, “Johnny if you don’t stop screaming, I’m going to take you out to the car for a time out”. Johnny doesn’t give a rip about whether he goes out to the car or not. My son certainly knows what I mean when I say, “if you don’t stop screaming, I’m going to pop your bottom”. Believe me, I’ve tried the threat of outside and it didn’t work.

I have some success with time out. Sometimes it works and sometimes not.

Yes, you are definitely right about giving young children choices.

By lakerat

October 3, 2008 4:06 PM | Link to this

I’ll let it go because I am so much better than Jeff, MJGoose, and all of the rest of you.

You all want to be me but are so not worthy.

By Sigh

October 3, 2008 5:03 PM | Link to this

There he goes again…he has NO KIDS, but KNOWS everything!

By Norman

October 3, 2008 7:59 PM | Link to this

I think that spanking should be allowed in the homes and schools like it was back in the 50’s and the hell with what all these so called christians and damn sorry grovernment officials says. That’s the problems withall of the idots and moron that are growing today because they don’t have spanking like they should and the parents should be sued everytime the damen a***** get in trouble with the law or the school principal or teachers and on fighting on the buses like the idots are doing and none of the idots have any respect for other adults must let along their rude parents and no wonder the idoits are the way they are is because of the sorry don’t give a damn attitude. The parents should keep better touch where their teens are at and who they’re with and keep the ,morons out of trouble. I blamb the parents because that is where the raisin begins at home the school. I wish the sorry grovernment would start the draft back up and start taking a bunch of the so called gang members off the street and out of the schools and put their sorry asses in the military. I praise the parents who do span their children and wish more of them would when they go out to the shoppingcenters and resruants where they should be spaned in front of all the custmers in the store to teach them a lesson they should learn at home.

By Ann

October 4, 2008 8:27 AM | Link to this

First, the commenters who say that kids are more unruly now because parents don’t spank is not based on fact. There are many other societal changes over time, the biggest of which kids are now typically in a home with both parents working and busy, with less personal attention from parents. To say that this change is due to less spanking is not based on any evidence. Kids today are also overscheduled with camps and classes. Quiet time with parents is rare for many families.

Also, the title of this column is odd for a newspaper as it only asks “what age is spanking appropriate”. So, it is based on the premise that spanking itself is appropriate. And, why would a newspaper state that spanking is appropriate, when almost every child development and psychology expert say that it teaches hitting behavior. I know one Mom who slaps, hits, her toddler from a young age, and the toddler also hits, pushes, bites almost every child he plays with on a daily basis.

By anita

October 4, 2008 8:27 AM | Link to this

When is spanking appropriate? Never. It’s a mean thing to do. Most people spank because they are too frustrated or angry to TRAIN their child using their smarts. I’ve also read studies that show it causes problems in sexuality as the children grow into adults. It’s just plain un-evolved, as are all parenting books that support it. And don’t tell me God likes spanking. I’m one of his kids, and he’s never spanked me - and I’ve misbehaved many times!

By Rational human being

October 6, 2008 10:51 AM | Link to this

How about this: physical discipline of children, including spanking, is only appropriate when done in anger. That way you can, when you calm down, apologize to your child for hitting them. Otherwise the message you are sending is “It is rational and proper for one human being who is more powerful than another to choose to perpetrate violence on the smaller one.” Has anyone ever thought of the concept of developing a relationship with their child that creates agreement and compliance based on respect and trust? Children who grow up fearing and in pain from their parents have a lot more reasons to rebel as teens than kids who grow up feeling respected and understood. And the latter children will find it rational and normal to treat others with that same respect. Children who are spanked, unless there is a whole lot of other demonstrations of love in the house to balance that out, will resort to violence when things get stressful, because that’s all they know.

By nurse&mother

October 6, 2008 11:25 AM | Link to this

@HB- Look at Ann’s 10-4-08 0827 post and you will see why I spoke equated the rationalization spill with the college educated.

I remember so well, my pychology and child/family development professors. They were all so anit-spanking and all for reasoning with toddlers. The idea is a little too idealistic and not always realistic. IMHO.

By nurse&mother

October 6, 2008 11:35 AM | Link to this

oops omit the word “spoke”.

By Rational human being

October 6, 2008 11:52 AM | Link to this

Why is it either spanking or rationalizing? There is redirection, there is play, there is firm, but loving restraining, ther are things that haven’t been thought of yet… Why settle for what has come before? People are not lab rats: punish bad behavior, reward good behavior. We are complex beings with a spiritual nature that interacts with our worldly choices. We must strive for more compassionate choices. It isn’t as easy as just hittin’ em if they mess up, but isn’t the goal of discovering better ways of raising caring, thoughtful, intelligent, flexible kids worth the effort? We all make mistakes of course, but let’s make them on a path to bettering mankind, rather than just thoughtlessly doing what everyone else does or what seems easiest.

By fina

October 6, 2008 2:25 PM | Link to this

I believe that spanking should be used when the child is old enough to understand the meaning of the spanking. Now to answer the question of whether 10 months is too early…I am not sure..what i can say is that I think a quick smack on the hands and saying “no” to the child is ok. all and all I believe it depends on the child. some children dont need spankings a lot while others do.i know I often had to resort to spanking with my son but I always made an effort to explain first why I was spanking him.

By nurse&mother

October 6, 2008 4:23 PM | Link to this

Rational human being- Do you have any children? I’m just curious.

I think that if a parent teaches a child very early on appropriate and safe behavior (sometimes with the use of spankings or little pops to the hand or diaper) then as the child grows up, spankings should diminish. This is where your ideal relationship comes into play.

I have a toddler and an 11yo. I have to give the 2.5 yo little pops on occasion. I can’t think of the last time I had to spank the 11yo.

We do not have a perfect relationship, but I try to let her in on the punishment system. She helps decide what is appropriate punishment for certain behavior or failing to clean up after herself.

I don’t think a child will grow up in fear unless spanking is abused/misused. I don’t think that is what Theresa is talking about. I don’t think many posters are condoning beating a child/toddler.

I personally don’t think it is all bad for a child to fear a parent in some respects. I think a little fear kept me out of a lot of trouble. Once I got older (in college) I was better able to think rationally. I very much feared my mom. She only spanked occasionally, but the lectures and disappointment was a huge motivator. I did not rebel very much. I was a good kid (for the most part). So I’m not sure your fear theory is correct in every situation.

I think that each child is different and a good parent much look at each child and modify discipline as needed.

By nurse&mother

October 6, 2008 4:52 PM | Link to this

Last sentence should read “a good parent SHOULD look…..”

By Rational human being

October 6, 2008 8:07 PM | Link to this

nurse&mother: I have 4 beautiful daughters, ages 5-16, whose personalities range from the most placid to the most temperamental. I know that spanking did not “ruin” a lot of us, and that it can be a part of a healthy family, but I do believe that parenting is (or should be) evolving to a non-violent, respectful process.

By Bob

October 7, 2008 9:49 AM | Link to this

We have begun spanking in some limited form as early as 4 months with each of our three children. There is not a set time, though, it is completely dependent on the individual child’s perception abilities. I think a lot of parents greatly underestimate their child’s ability to make connections.

No one has perfect children, and certainly ours are no exception, but having begun early and remained consistent, we find we do a lot less spanking as they get older. The discipline is already there, and what once took spanking now often only takes a word of reminder.

A child of ours may go months with no need for a spanking at all now, simply because they learned from their earliest days that they were not the center of the universe, and that they could not do everything/anything they felt like doing.

In other words, they learned to control themselves. They do not act like animals or brats. And they are observably happier than other children…we receive comments to that effect almost everywhere we go. It’s actually very uncomfortable at times.

Of course, the success of our child-rearing is not to our credit. God makes abundantly clear in His Word that applying corporal punishment is a means of freeing them from the sin with which we are all born. It teaches right and wrong and motivates a desire to do what’s right and to associate what is wrong with unpleasant sensation.

God’s ways are always perfect.

By anita

October 7, 2008 10:26 AM | Link to this

It’s eery to me that so many pro-spankers are men.

By Jeff

October 7, 2008 10:55 AM | Link to this

anita:

Now you know why men are more disciplined and controlled.

But hey, y’all wouldn’t be NEAR as interesting - though certainly FAR easier to live with - if you were as disciplined and controlled as us!

By Rob in Minneapolis

October 8, 2008 11:56 AM | Link to this

Nurse&mother said

Sometimes in the grocery store you can’t say, “Johnny if you don’t stop screaming, I’m going to take you out to the car for a time out”. Johnny doesn’t give a rip about whether he goes out to the car or not. My son certainly knows what I mean when I say, “if you don’t stop screaming, I’m going to pop your bottom”. Believe me, I’ve tried the threat of outside and it didn’t work.

Depends on what you mean by “work.” Does it remove him from the store, so he’s not bothering other shoppers? Does sitting in the car, bored out of his mind for ten or fifteen minutes give him motivation to change his behavior? I’d think so, especially if he can’t move around, play, talk with you, listen to the radio etc. (remember to bring a book for yourself, though).

Furthermore, I’m sure you can think of other punishments you can think of that don’t involve striking your child. Deprive him of things he likes (our four-year-old loves kids’ websites, so “no screen time” is a pretty good punishment for her, for example).

People also forget that a blow an adult would take in stride, or barely even notice, is much more painful to a child. What people call a “pop” to a child’s hand or bottom is very painful because children’s skin is far more sensitive than adults’.

I admit, we’ve been tempted to spank our daughter, but have refrained. She’s feisty, but generally well-behaved when she gets enough sleep, and enjoys pleasing us and other adults. The only time we’re likely to use that as a method of discipline is when it comes to dangerous things like running out in the street or playing with matches. We’ve impressed on her well the dangers of those things, so she doesn’t do them.

I don’t think it’s ever necessary to spank, but it’s certainly tempting at times. However, the underlying message that violence is an acceptable and appropriate way to deal with someone doing something you don’t like is not one want to pass on to our daughter.

When she’s older, I fully intend to sign her up for self-defense training, but not until she’s old enough to understand the concept of necessary and appropriate violence.

Despite what some halfwits have said, it is not appropriate or healthy for children to fear their parents.

47 years old, proud father of an almost-five-year-old, and spanking-free for all of those years.

Oh, and Bob?

God makes abundantly clear in His Word that applying corporal punishment is a means of freeing them from the sin with which we are all born.

Concepts that make me glad I rejected your religion many years ago. Mine does not hold with such obscene notions as “the sin with which we are all born.”

It teaches right and wrong

It teaches that might makes right, that hitting is a good way to solve a disagreement, and that bigger people get to hit smaller people. Yeah, great lessons, those.

and motivates a desire to do what’s right

Studies have shown again and again that rewarding good behavior is much more effective than punishing bad. Punishing bad behavior teaches people to learn to avoid the punishment, not to stop the bad behavior.

God’s ways are always perfect.

Not if what you describe is “God’s ways,” they’re not. Fortunately, not everyone believes as you do…

Rob

By Rob in Minneapolis

October 8, 2008 12:03 PM | Link to this

OK, apparently the “italics” function doesn’t work. At least, I can’t see them on my monitor; sorry for any confusion there.

Here…

To Bob:

God makes abundantly clear in His Word that applying corporal punishment is a means of freeing them from the sin with which we are all born.

Concepts that make me glad I rejected your religion many years ago. Mine does not hold with such obscene notions as “the sin with which we are all born.” (nice job on the grammar, though!)

It teaches right and wrong

It teaches that might makes right, that hitting is a good way to solve a disagreement, and that bigger people get to hit smaller people. Yeah, great lessons, those.

and motivates a desire to do what’s right

Studies have shown again and again that rewarding good behavior is much more effective than punishing bad. Punishing bad behavior teaches people to learn to avoid the punishment, not to stop the bad behavior.

God’s ways are always perfect.

Not if what you describe is “God’s ways,” they’re not. Fortunately, not everyone believes as you do…

Rob

By alch

October 9, 2008 5:04 PM | Link to this

This explains why this generation is has such a strong sense of entitlement and believes the rules do not apply to them. They know nothing about consequences. Rationalization, time-out, etc my foot!

My parents used the belt on my siblings & I when we deserved it and we are no worse off for it. The three of us are productive members of society. We love and respect our parents…we do not fear them. I’ve done the same with my two girls. They know about consequences.

After reading this thread, I fully understand why there are so many rude and whiny students in the college system. They grew up without hard rules, but with silly parents who think they should reason with them. Even more so, there is no wonder see so many on tv in handcuffs. Some slaps upside the head might have saved them and other a lot of grief.