MOMania

By Jesse's Girl

June 24, 2008 8:21 AM | Link to this

First of all….the answer lies in limiting your child’s tv time. Our kids…each of them…get to choose one 30 minute show per day. I think 1.5 hours is plenty. I do make special allowances for movies like Camp Rock…we had a slumber party!! Secondly…when your kids ask questions about the behavior of celebrities, tell an age appropriate truth. I am learning to teeter on the edge of exposure and sheltering. I try very hard not to take our kids to the grocery store. If they do come, I make them go through the line and wait against the wall. I simply do not want them to see all the flippin’ magazines with the sexual stuff on the covers.

When Jamie Spears got pregnant, I sat my girls down and asked them what they thought. They gave responses that I thought were beyond their years. They understood it was wrong and the oldest wanted to know why her mom and dad were letting her date anyway….for this I kissed her on the forehead and offered Hershey Kisses for dinner:) We’ve talked about Brittany and her tomfoolery. My children have grown up around the entertainment business…so they have seen the good and the bad. We have made no bones about what we approve of and what we find unacceptable.

I think us parents need to put the proverbial foot down. We need to say what they don’t want to hear…”No, you cannot wear eye make-up until I say so”. “No, you cannot show your belly or cheeks with your clothing”. “No, you will not call or text a boy”. “You will speak on the phone in the dining room”. “You will put your all into school”.

We also have to say yes to things however….especially as they grow. We have to show trust in their judgement…let them make some decisions. Let them make some mistakes. The girls involved in this “pact” didn’t have a good home life. They didn’t have parents who gave a wit about them. I mean come on! They were marked as risks for this as 6th graders!!! What the hell????

There needs to be more shame attached to teen pregnancy. There certainly used to be. The guy needs to be made to shoulder some responsibilty as well. All too often the guy does his deed and washes his hands of the whole thing. Lets make it embarrassing again…not to shame the teens, but to shame the act.

By ManOfTeal

June 24, 2008 8:44 AM | Link to this

From what I understand it used to be socially acceptable for a teen mother, who was usually married and usually 18 or 19 years old but STILL a teen to get pregnant. Maybe I’m missing the point here but what exactly has changed between then and now? Ok I get that these teen girls are not married but they believed that by all of them getting pregnant at the same time that their friendships would become stronger and their children would be able to play together. I’m not saying that what they did was a good thing, I’m just saying that I understand.

Also, sheltering your children from the real world is not the answer. All that does is foster more curiosity. Educating them on what is right and what is wrong in the world is the answer.

By Jesse's Girl

June 24, 2008 9:14 AM | Link to this

Who said anything about sheltering them? If you do that, they don’t develope the skills to live in the real world…but if you allow them to be exposed to every peice of crap out there…they become loose. Its a fine line to walk, but well worth it.

By catlady

June 24, 2008 9:17 AM | Link to this

Kudos to Jessie’s Girl. I am in agreement with her about the tv. We turned ours off COMPLETELY for 3 very important years of my kids’ lives. We developed hobbies, read extensively, played board games, took family walks. It was priceless. I also severely limited the children’s movie and nintendo watching.

I agree with teal about the importance of educating about right and wrong, but I think limiting tv is basic. Also, being careful about their friends, purchases, and activities ranks up at the top. It has to start right away, and not wait until the child is 14.

About the baby having. I am actually much farther over on this. I think after one baby outside of marriage, there should be required Norplant. If a second baby is conceived out of wedlock, there should be sterilization. Also, the money Medicaid spends to birth these babies should be recouped from the mother, five dollars a week if must be, plus garnishment of EIC, until the prenatal/birth care is paid off. If the father is named/identified, he pays, too.

Public policy must be aimed at stopping/punishing behavior that is counterproductive. Shame does not work anymore. The ripple effect of folks having babies they cannot reasonably care for is far reaching and much more expensive than just money. I am a teacher. I have seen this first-hand.

I’ve beent thinking about China’s policy. Perhaps we should consider one similar, except you “earn” the right to have more children by the amount of education you have. One baby max for those who drop out. Two for those who finish high school. Three or more for those who finish college.

By T

June 24, 2008 9:28 AM | Link to this

It starts with the parents. Then well knowledge about birth control and the consequences of not using it. Apparently, the whole abstinence preaching isn’t working. Learn to talk to your children about these issues and how to deal with them responsibly. If you can not or just think that it is wrong that they know this or (my personal favorite) will promote promiscuity? How are they going to talk to you when they need the answers. If you don’t there are plenty of other non-educated children they can get their answers from.

By mom3boys

June 24, 2008 9:38 AM | Link to this

There are times to celebrate being a mom of only boys; this is one of them. The whole teen pregnancy issue breaks my heart. I teach middle school, and when I see a pregnant child, I am sick. These children should not even be dating, let alone be having sex. Where are the parents? Where is the supervision? However, some of the moms are only 14 or 15 years older than their daughter, so there is no example to follow. I’ve heard moms say that they couldn’t tell their child “not to” since they did. They use the same argument w/ pot and alcohol…. I’ve told my boys for years “just because someone will doesn’t mean you should.” I hope they’ve heard this message…children are a blessing, at the right time of life. Otherwise, they set these kids on a path that usually leads to poor educational outlook and even more grim job prospects. It’s all very, very sad.

By Jesse's Girl

June 24, 2008 9:46 AM | Link to this

Viva la sex ed in school!!!! We can no longer afford to trust that parents are educating their own. So many see having a baby as a social status thing. I see this all of the time in my career. Its not cool..its stupid. Its even more stupid to continue to hang onto the hope that kids are being taught right from wrong… regarding this… at home. Parents are not being parents. Can you control your childrens’ actions 24/7? Absolutely not. But at least be proactive BEFORE they become sexually active.

By jct

June 24, 2008 9:51 AM | Link to this

@mom3boys. Who were these girls having sex with? They certainly aren’t having sex with other girls.

As of step-mom of a boy I worry even more. How young men treat these young ladies is just as important as the pregnancy issue. Young men need to have respect for their bodies so they can respect a young ladies body. My son (he’s 17) has spoken about the pressures to have sex. That some girls try to pressure him into having sex. (this is not blame on girls, it is a self esteem issue.)

We have always told our son, if you impregnant a young lady that it is YOUR responsibility to support the child if she chooses to have it. No more sports and fun but child support payments. He will not be let off the hook.

It takes two to get pregnant.

By ManOfTeal

June 24, 2008 10:02 AM | Link to this

Well I cannot speak for other parent’s but I fully intend to teach my kids the difference between what is right and what is wrong. And even more importantly I intend to stress the difference between what is reality and what is fantasy. That is why people go crazy and kill people on college campuses, not because they were playing Grand Theft Auto IV or watching TV, but because no one explained the difference between reality and fantasy and the consequences of your individual actions.

By gbear

June 24, 2008 10:03 AM | Link to this

I dont have children yet,but I would like to give my opinion as someone outside looking in. I think there needs to be a balance between letting kids be kids and being strict and overprotective ( I think jessys girl has achieved this). I also think communication is key…I see this in my nieces… I think it takes a good family foundation to raise a good kid. A kid should also know that if they dont feel comfortable talking to mom or dad on a particular subject, that is where aunts and uncles and other family members need to be there as well. Raising a child to me is a great responsibility and cannot imagine raising a child so young as the kids involved in that pact. If people took parenting more seriously they would do as I do and not worry about having a child just because everyone else is having one, but do it when it is right for you emotionally and financially.

By Jesse's Girl

June 24, 2008 10:05 AM | Link to this

Momof3boys….I think you are holding onto a fall sense of security. Maybe I would too, who know’s? So often the families of the girls get the baby too. You almost never hear of the guy’s family shouldering their share of the responsibilty. Not saying you wouldn’t…its just the way it seems to be. Teach your sons that their pants need to stay zipped up…crass, but I’ve lost interest in being PC about this. Teach your sons that oral sex is just as dangerous. Teach your sons that if they can’t help themselves that Walgreens sells condoms for $2.99 a pack.

By ManOfTeal

June 24, 2008 10:19 AM | Link to this

@Jesse’s Girl

Who told you that oral sex was dangerous? There would be far less pregnancies in the world if more oral sex was given…..I’m just saying.

By jct

June 24, 2008 10:26 AM | Link to this

@manofteal

Dangers of oral sex. Hmmm? How about STD?

Sorry, I am with JG. Oral sex is just as dangerous.

By faye

June 24, 2008 10:30 AM | Link to this

As the mom of both a girl (21) and boy (17), I read this story with sadness. It’s sad that these girls are missing such an important component of family that they’ve (misguidedly) decided to create their own…and so the cycle continues.

I didn’t really formally limit how much my kids watched when they were younger, but for a very long time we had no cable, and we still only have one TV, in the family room, that we all share (the computer is in the family room, too). That effectively limited things - we watch together, and that’s a good time to put the parent spin on things.

When the Gloucester story broke, I was talking about whose responsiblity it was, and I mentioned “17 sets of parents” - my son corrected me, and said, “No, 34.” I thought he meant the girls moms AND dads, so I said, “A set is both the mom and dad - 17.” To which he replied, “What about the boys’ parents? 34.”

Needless to say, I was a little impressed - my son taught me a lesson I had forgotten.

By T

June 24, 2008 10:31 AM | Link to this

@Jesse’s Girl

Not true. Anyone remember the syphilis epidemic in Rockdale county. Education about sex is key. (the miricle of life movie scared me) All kind of nastiness can be passed along. A strong family unit is the foundation.

By JeremiahWright

June 24, 2008 10:34 AM | Link to this

ManofTeal, you’re an idiot. You have no idea what you’re talking about. There’s a world of difference between a 19 yo married mother in the 1950s and a 17 yo student unmarried mother in 2008. Liberals like you, who refuse to pass judgment, are the problem.

By erinanne

June 24, 2008 10:36 AM | Link to this

@catlady. Just because you have an education does not mean that you know how to be a parent. I would say that in the area where I work most of families have at least three degrees between the two parents, and yet when I go to lunch the darling angels of said ‘educated people’ are allowed to run up and down the aisles of the restaurant or scream their little heads off at the table while Mommy and Daddy ignore them (or in some cases, think it is funny that their precious dear is disturbing other diners.) Now, I know this is going to make it seem like I don’t like children, but I love children. I just appreciate children who have been taught how to behave, and that is the key to this question.

Children have to be taught that for every action there is a consequence. It is something that has to start early, though. You are right in saying that you can’t suddenly decide when your child is sixteen that he/she needs a lecture on safe sex practices or how driving after drinking is bad.

Neither of my parents have college degrees and yet they raised three children to be responsible adults. Not a one of us has ever been arrested, been pregnant (or in the case of my brother gotten any one pregnant.) That is because they taught us from very young that if we misbehaved we would be punished for it.

By ManOfTeal

June 24, 2008 10:39 AM | Link to this

I am fully aware of the dangers of STD’s in regard to oral sex but what we are discussing here is pregnancy, not STD’s. You cannot get pregnant from oral sex. My point is still valid.

By Trey

June 24, 2008 10:39 AM | Link to this

The state acts like the 17 girls being pregnant is against the law, what are they going to do if they find out that it was a pact, arrest them? It really is disturbing what happened but it is their life.

By Julie

June 24, 2008 10:44 AM | Link to this

Once again this basically all comes back to the parents and home life. I totally agree with JG that we have to say NO. I’m sick to death of these idiot parents who either don’t say no for anything at any age or use the excuse “I can’t stop her/him if they really want to” or “What am I supposed to do when all the other kids do this or wear that or whatever.” PLEASE -get a spine. Your kids are going to do some things you don’t approve of, but if you set rules and boundaries and say NO, then hopefully the things they sneak and do will pale in comparison to what they would be doing if you aren’t setting any boundaries. I know that was the case with me and most of my friends in high school. I have two boys, and I know that I’m certainly not immune to the fear of teen pregnancy or STDs. I plan to tell both of my sons at EARLY ages about sex, how babies are made and STDs transmitted and that while I sincerely hope they will at least wait until they’re out of high school to have sex, that if they absolutely cannot, then there is a box of condoms in their bathroom cabinet. I also plan to tell them to never trust a girl who says she’s on birth control in case she’s like one of the twits in Gloucester or has and STD. If they’re going to use it -they need to know they must wrap it up. We also need full, comprehensive sex education starting in elementary school with age-appropriate instruction. If religious groups don’t like it, then they can all home school and church school their kids. The Scandinavian countries and The Netherlands use this approach and have the lowest incidents of teen pregnancies in the world. Over 60% of teenagers -boys and girls -wait until AFTER high school to have sex in Denmark! And in case you’ve never traveled to any of these countries -in Amsterdam and Copenhagen at least, you walk by sex toy stores that are next to book stores and clothing shops, but because sex is open and not considered dirty, immoral or forbidden, teens aren’t using it as a form of rebellion. I used to teach Health to high school sophomores -for many the first time they had any form of sex ed. Several were already parents, and one boy had no idea how a pregnancy happened even though he was a father. We also need federally funded abortion, vasectomy, and tubal ligation and anyone living on gov’t funds who insists on having more than one kid needs to have to have Norplant to receive a check. Whatever the case -the message from parents, schools and society in general needs to be that it is NOT ok to get pregnant and have babies in high school.

By ManOfTeal

June 24, 2008 10:45 AM | Link to this

@JeremiahWright

Who in the hell are you to even think you know me? I was simply making a statement and an observation in one. There was no political agenda involved. Go sell crazy someplace else jackass.

By T

June 24, 2008 10:45 AM | Link to this

sorry @Jesse’s Girl

that was directed at @manofteal

By T

June 24, 2008 10:49 AM | Link to this

ManofTeal

Point taken.

By T

June 24, 2008 10:55 AM | Link to this

Julie

” anyone living on gov’t funds who insists on having more than one kid needs to have to have Norplant to receive a check.”
I love it!!!

By Penguinmom

June 24, 2008 10:56 AM | Link to this

It’s fairly obvious that no one in the ‘teen-pact’ girls’ lives helped them see the reality of living with a newborn or the reality of having to raise children. Do young girls not babysit anymore? Do they help take care of younger siblings?

I’ve made sure that my children have had the opportunity to experience the down side to having babies/toddlers around. They got to be around for stinky diaper changes, potty training. Now that they are all older, they have responsibilities to help out with their youngest brother and put up with his whining. When I was younger, I babysat and that certainly helped me see that this whole baby thing was not all sweetness and light.

In today’s society, we allow our kids to get too caught up in who the media says they should idolize. If it’s on the Disney channel or Nick, parents think it is totally safe for their kids. I don’t want my 8-year-old girl watching a bunch of teens deal with their relationship issues even if they are all fairly nice to each other. That just gets her thinking about boyfriends and other nonsense that have no place in her life.

My kids don’t watch the most popular shows. Instead they read a lot more and often discuss the characters in their books and who they want to be like.

On the teen pact thing, one of the most absurd things in the whole situation was that the health clinic people quit because they couldn’t hand out condoms. Hello! If the girls WANT to get pregnant, handing out condoms or birth control pills is not going to help the situation.

Teen pregnancy is an attitude and character issue, not just a practical or educational issue.

By E

June 24, 2008 11:07 AM | Link to this

I do not think that limiting the number of children one has based upon the level of education obtained is the answer. Some may not be able to afford college. Some may not want to go to college but that does not mean that they will be bad parents. It also does not mean that they will not be able to support their children. I am sure that everyone was not raised by college educated parents but still had a good upbringing without being only children. Perhaps parenting classes, job training and a limit on the amount and terms of assistance will work without limiting people’s basic rights.

By Penguinmom

June 24, 2008 11:11 AM | Link to this

I agree with some of the comments about the boys being left out of this equation. We as a society just assume it’s okay and expected for a boy to take up an offer of sex anytime he can.

That said, girls today are way too forward. A generation ago, girls didn’t call boys, girls dressed to flatter their looks not to flaunt their wares. And a boy had to actually try to convince the girl to have sex, she didn’t just offer it up.

Oral sex is a gateway into the entire sexual experience. It desensitizes the partners to the bond that sex should create. It creates huge pressures to just go ahead and go all the way. Oral sex used to be something only prostitutes offered. Now it’s considered so ‘harmless’ that even 5th and 6th graders are engaging in it.

By Jeff

June 24, 2008 11:13 AM | Link to this

A smaller government could have prevented some of this.

Don’t believe me?

In the absence of Medicare, who would pay for these kids?

Answer: The 17yo mamas and/or the 17yo mama’s family.

Individual Liberty and Personal Responsibility.

Until those two things are held in higher regard and used as THE decision making matrix for Congress and the Executive, we’ll continue to see things such as what has happened in Massachusetts.

By disgusted

June 24, 2008 11:27 AM | Link to this

All I have to say is this: “Here goes more of my income to pay for a bunch of immature and foolish kids to have medicaid”. It isn’t enough that I raise my children, I have to raise other illegitimate children who will more than likely grow up and repeat the same pattern as their silly,mooching parents.

By JJ

June 24, 2008 11:55 AM | Link to this

Can anyone tell me why most parents are so afraid to talk sex with their kids?

I have been talking to my child about sex, ever since she was about 10-12 years old. I have talked to her over and over, about the “responsibility Drill”.

If YOU do not wish to have a child, then YOU take responsibility for birth control. Don’t expect your partner to provide the birth control. This goes to boys/men too. If you don’t want the responsibility of a child, then damnit, use a condom.

PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.

And parents, talk to your kids. Unless you want them learning about sex from their ill-informed friends.

Remember, you are the ADULT, you are the PARENT, you are the one in control, not the kid. It is up to YOU to guide your child through life. Keep the lines of communication open, let them know that you are there for them.

And yes, they will experiment, just like we did, but it is up to us to arm them with information, so they can make the good choices.

Even if they roll their eyes, or say “I know” a gazillion times, it is important to keep the lines of communication open. Ask questions, don’t be afraid. I ask my daughter all the time, “do we need to go to the doctor”, “are you having sex”, etc.

We brought them into this world, and it is our responsbility to mold them into productive citizens and not be a burden on society.

Damnit parents, take the responsiblity!!!!!

By jlh

June 24, 2008 12:08 PM | Link to this

this is why test scores are falling and discipline is tough in schools. kids come to school who have kids as parents. as a k teacher in a high poverty school, i see this often. unfortunately, politicians don’t understand this socioeconomic aspect when throwing out these rules for funding, accountability, etc. (before you jump on me, i am all for teacher accountability)many times as kids raise kids, other activities take priority over actually raising the child, whether it be partying, jobs, men/women, school, etc. oh, if you try to instill discipline, they get upset because the little darlings should be able to come and go and do as they please without any responsibility or accountability for their actions or their consequences to themselves and/or others. they get mad when disciplinary action is taken or they are denied privileges, but come to a meeting about academic concerns? not a chance. it is the teacher’s fault not theirs. this also includes the parents of said children. notice how that since this “trend” started, scores have fallen? my advise to parents, be one! don’t try to be their best friend or the cool parent, just be a parent who teaches responsibility and accountability for their actions and the resulting consequences.

By Patiently waiting

June 24, 2008 12:12 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

If the gov’t didn’t provide medical care for those who were unable too, ‘we’ would still be paying for it. They would go to the hospitals, uninsured to get treatment. No prenatal care would be given and there would be more likely to led to higher cost due to the lack of care. I agree with the other suggestion that it should be a ‘loan’ of some sort and paying that gov’t back to help subsidize some of the cost.

I also agree that you have to monitor your children’s television programs and also explain to them when they encounter some programs the good and the bad. As a society, we have to stop thinking that someone else is going to parent our kids and take that responsibility back.

By parentof4

June 24, 2008 12:18 PM | Link to this

manofteal: you are truely a man for the oral sex comment. HA. Great One.

I have 3 boys and one girl. I watch the girls around my boys. Girls are fast, nowadays. I did not act like them when I was their age and I am not that old. I mean T.V. and some mothers believe it is okay to dress the way they do and to look the way they do. My oldest is 12 and some girls are looking for “husbands.”

With all that being said. I too limit what they watch and I do not let them watch regular T.V. unless it is PBS kids (for my youngest). I also educate them on what is going on in the “world.” I say the world because that crap is not going to happen in my house. No you can not shelter your kids (I see why some want to) but you also do not have to have them showered with all that crap. Teenage pregnacy is a NO! Sex as a teenager is a NO! as it will lead to the teenage pregnancy. As a precaution they are taught about safe sex (age appropriate of course). But I stand on the premise that you should not have sex as a teenager. You barely know who you are what makes you think you know the other person. Besides we all know that boys do not mature into men until they are 25. It is not like I am going to take care of your child.

I feel sorry for those girls who thought it was great to have a child. Yes it is great, but not like they want it. The child is not a replacement for the parent that is not loving you or that is missing. They have to be underloved to want to have something that they believe will love them unconditionally like that. Yes it is an assumption. But a child who has an understanding that they are loved, do not go out looking for it like this.

By Sandynista

June 24, 2008 12:20 PM | Link to this

Good points from all the bloggers today!

Unfortunately, the folks who could most benefit from the parenting experience of everyone here will probably never see some of the common-sense wisdom on this blog.

By mom3boys

June 24, 2008 12:26 PM | Link to this

jct, I am well aware these girls are having sex w/ boys…my comment intended to express my joy that boys (at least not mine) aren’t racing to get pregnant in some idiotic pact. I have taught my boys for years that they are responsible for any “too early grandchildren” and to practice self control or birth control. I also have explained the whole “having sex w/ everyone that person has had sex w/” disease theory, which totally grossed them out. The middle one cannot imagine why anyone would risk parenthood and sees sex at this stage of life as entirely too risky. Parents of daughters, please know we do our best to teach our boys to respect your daughters and be responsible. However, cut the boys some slack and get those girls to dress a tad less provocatively. Some of these middle school girls leave NOTHING to the imagination. Not sure how the boy are supposed to concentrate on school work…their brains are not programmed to tune out all that cleavage and flesh in their face. Just my 2 cents.

By SD

June 24, 2008 12:28 PM | Link to this

If any of these girls were my daughter and unwed and pregnant she would be told flat out, you cannot keep the baby. Someone in the family has to have a brain and if you think a sexually active… ok..I will go ahead and say it…DUMB teen-ager is going to wreck my chances of a retirement and having money to retire on and live above the poverty level, think again. Her stupidity and poor lifestyle choices will not put me in the poorhouse, or in some cases, not allow me to send another kid to college all because of a stupid, careless, selfish act of one child. No way! Id she thinks she can move out, work and raise the child on her own while working for minimum wage, go for it. The mere idea that she can is beyond belief. The kid would go up for adoption, no two ways about it. And, if you think I would care what she feels about me that day…or a hundred days later, think again. Again, I repeat…someone in the family has to have a brain.

By ManOfTeal

June 24, 2008 12:30 PM | Link to this

@parentof4

Thank you for geeting my joke I was beginning to think I was the only one on this blog with a sense of humor.

By ManOfTeal

June 24, 2008 12:30 PM | Link to this

@parentof4

Thank you for getting my joke I was beginning to think I was the only one on this blog with a sense of humor.

By nurse&mother

June 24, 2008 12:45 PM | Link to this

@Trey-While it may be “their life” we are (or will ) certainly be paying for it for years to come! So indirectly it is our business too.

By nurse&mother

June 24, 2008 12:53 PM | Link to this

One more thing to consider with a boy is the threat of being placed on the sex offender registry for statutory rape (even if it is consensual).

I agree with the poster who stated that oral sex is a gateway to other things. I’m thinking that if two teens are having oral sex, it won’t be long before they are taking it one step further. Don’t forget that std’s can also be transmitted through oral sex. It’s not real pretty seeing genital lesions around one’s mouth!

By pamela

June 24, 2008 1:07 PM | Link to this

Sad that not ONE person brought up the issue of morality when it comes to teens having sex- which is a sad reflection and indication of how unimporant and irrelevant morality is viewed today.

Whether you consider morality “relevant” or not in today’s world, the truth is this folks: The rise, acceptance - and downright championing - of out-of-wedlock children in today’s society which began in the 1960’s has, of course, manifested itself in the rise and acceptance of teen pregnancies. You say teen pregancies are not accepted today? Of course they are - if they weren’t, most teens wouldn’t even DREAM of having sex if they knew that their parents specifically, and society in general, looked at teen sex with disdain and condenmation, and having out-of-wedlock births with shame and embarrassment. There’s a reason why teen sex and illigitmate births were much lower before the so-called sexual revolution of the 1960’s. You may think we’re better off as a society to be sexually liberated and without the cloak of shame on unwed or “single” mothers, but do you REALLY think sexual liberation has done much for all the unwanted, neglected, abused, children out there living in single mother households or in DFACS? Do think the moral liberation has helped to keep families together - or tear them apart? Do you think the moral liberation has decreased the number of pedophiles and sex offenders out there preying on your kids?

Do you think the moral liberation movement has increased or decreased the amount of respect shown between boys and girls, men and women? And I’m not referring to the ridiculous “dictated-by-the-government-or-you-can-sue” type of pseudo-respect that says we cannot compliment one another on any type of personal level… I mean TRUE respect, given from the heart, such as watching your language around a woman because you acknowledge that women who have self-worth don’t find people using unadulterated crass language particulary charming; holding a door for her and standing when she leaves/enters a room, not because you think she’s weak, but because you have a high regard for women, and deserve to be treated as such; calling her several days in advance when requesting a date instead of at the last minute, so she doesn’t feel like she’s second fiddle to other felled plans; walking her to the door afterwards, so she knows you think she’s worth the extra effort and concern for her safety; and not expecting anything in return, but a thank you kiss, because she feels you respect her enough to feel she’s worth waiting for, and like her enough to want to get to know her better.

And for the girls and women out there, do you think the respect you show towards boys and men have increased over the years? Do you think debasing yourself by acting like a B**ch, always complaining about your “rights” and “needs” makes them feel special? Do you think snapping their heads off when they open a door for you, or becoming offended when they refer to you as a “lady”, or “pretty”, makes you their “equal”, whatever that means? Do you believe the opinion men have of you sleeping around simply because “men do it, why can’t we?”, is actually anything close to respect? They have an opinion, all right, but is it one you feel comfortable with? If you look down on men who sleep around, then why should they think any different about you?

Oh my God, people. My parents did NOT even TALK about sex with us - much less tell us anything like “oh well, if you’re gonna do it, at least use protection”. Nor did we have sex education in school (back in the 60’s and 70’s) - yes, even though our society was undergoing a major sexual “revolution” during that time, and everyone was supposedly freely “doing it” , my parents’ beliefs and morals ran counter to the culture surrounding us, and made no apologies for it. Society wasn’t responsible for creating or crafting our behavior, our actions, our attitudes, our morals - THEY were - and there was no debate or discussion about our parent’s wishes and values vs society’s changing norms and expectations. They couldn’t have cared less what negative behaviors celebrities or politicians exhibited as far as any so-called “impact” on our lives, nor were they worried that the counter-culture of the 60’s would change us for the worse.

Our lives and values and moral codes were shaped and instilled by our parents - not the media, not sports stars, not actresses, not even presidents - while we were growing up.

We knew better than to engage in sexual activity while living under our parent’s roof, not just because it was outside of expected behavior - ie “wrong” - but, more importantly, we loved and respected our parents so much, their opinion of us was paramount to any and everything that society could dish out. No, our parents didn’t directly come out and tell us teen sex was wrong, or cigarette smoking was wrong, or drug use was wrong. And they didn’t have to have public service announcements telling them to “talk to their kids about drugs” or “hug their kids” or “be a parent to your kids”.

And why didn’t they have tell us not to have sex when we were young? Because, more than anything, due to the way they lived their lives, we already knew what they felt was right and wrong, what was acceptable, what was not. This moral code of behavior that they lived every day - not just told to us to live - was instilled in us from the beginning of our lives to the end of theirs. This strong moral code is exemplified high character, self-discipline, self-respect (self-respecting girls and boys don’t sleep around), kindness towards others, respect for authority and our elders, a strong work ethic, accountability, and yes, a healthy sense of shame when we did something wrong. And in those days shame was attributed to behavior outside our parent’s moral code, which ALSO included using bad language; talking back and/or being disrepectful to our parents, teachers or elders; lying about anything; cheating; misbehaving in public; getting less than an “A” in conduct at school; blaming others for our mistakes or misfortunes. Yeah, their code was pretty strict - but they were also generous with permissions, with curfews. They didn’t grill us about friends we hung out with. They didn’t ask us if we were “upset” when Jim Morrison died. They didn’t hide alcohol from us. They trusted us because they knew we had their moral guide instilled in us from day one. We couldn’t help it - they were a living breathing example EVERY day.

And that, my friends, are what we’re missing today: Parents who have moral codes that they live every day as positive examples for their children, and who expect nothing less than high standards of morals from them. And children who respect their parents.

By Ladye J of G

June 24, 2008 1:24 PM | Link to this

Actually, Man Of Teal, yeah, any kind of intimacy like that has its risks. By the way, your moniker intrigues me. Are you by any chance a memeber of the Teal Nation?? If so, you probably know exactly who I am

By Jesse's Girl

June 24, 2008 1:29 PM | Link to this

We do have moral codes. Thats kind of what we’ve been talking about here…the whole time. But the vast majority of parents do not. They are not taking the repsonsibility of sex ed on themselves. So their children are learning from other children. This is not a religion thing…or a Ron Paul thing. Even though Jeff worships at his feet and blieves he is the cure for all of society’s ills. This is a picking up the slack of other parents thing. It would be lovely if all parents taught their children chastity and to live a moral life. That is certainly what we are teaching to our’s. But we also know that we do not live in a vaccuum. I would much rather middle schoolers learn the real truth at school in a controlled environment than some kid’s version of the truth.

By Mark

June 24, 2008 1:35 PM | Link to this

Ya think?? It’s quite obvious…..

What a stupid blog.

By momof4

June 24, 2008 1:42 PM | Link to this

There are some people out there that should not have pets or children - they simply don’t get the part about being responsible for what happens.

By jct

June 24, 2008 1:46 PM | Link to this

I like to believe everything about morality that you have listed in your post Pamela, but as I read your post it reminded me of a conversation I had with my grandmother and her friends when I was in my early 20’s. This was about 18 years ago.

My grandmother who was born in 1925, told me that the morality of the 40s and 50s was completely manufactured. Children were obedient but also lied a lot. She stated that teens were having sex around the age of 17-19. She and her friends told me that none of them were virgins when they got married. That there husbands were not their first partner.

I was floored. I am not against morals. Morals are good. I hope that I am instilling a solid moral base for my son. However, as a nation we definitely live in a society where it is a ‘do as I say and not as I do’.

By Lee

June 24, 2008 1:52 PM | Link to this

More Control! and then more! Don’t let children learn anything you don’t want them to learn, and then they’ll grow up to be just like you! (Ha! Ha! Ha!) Sorry, but you can’t control what your child learns or what your child thinks. When htey become sexually mature, they will grope out on their own- you can’t stop them and you can’t control them. all you can do is guide them. And if you think that at age 17 you can still control them, then it is the parent who will ose their innocence.

By Tricia S

June 24, 2008 1:53 PM | Link to this

Have some of you (Parentof4 and CatLady) ever heard of birth control. The earth is quickly running out of resources and yet you ignorantly continue to believe that as long as you are willing and able (and educated, how ironic!), you can have as many children as you wish. Keep your legs crossed or get some condoms!

By JJ

June 24, 2008 1:55 PM | Link to this

Pamela I have to agree with your extremely long post. I believe you and I are of the same generation.

However, in our day, we did not have the influx of MTV, Cribs, My Sweet 16, etc. We had Leave it to Beaver, the Brady Bunch, etc. Today’s kids are inundated with all kinds of crap, and they live and learn by what they see on tv, because 75% of the time, tv has been a babysitter.

The divorce rate is much higher today, and there are way more single parents now than in our day. Single Mom’s have to work, sometimes two jobs, while Daddy is out running around, making more babies and not being held responsible for the ones he already made.

There are no consequences to kids behavior these days. They are given extremely expensive toys, brand new cars, etc, and have not been taught to EARN what they want.

My daughter is picking up on the fact that she has alot of friends with rich parents. Some of her friends drive Hummers to school, that Daddy bought for Jill. They boys are driving BM’ers and high end sports cars. All my daughter’s friends have gym memberships. She is dying to be a part of the pack. I had to tell her just the other night, I am sorry we don’t have a man in this house making $75K, we only have ME, making less than 50K.
I told her if she wants a gym membership, get a job, and pay for it yourself. But, that is after you help me pay for gas in the vehicle you are driving, and her share of insurance on the vehicle, and let’s not forget that fancy cell phone either.

Today’s parents do not instill Morals and Values into their kids. They just give them everything and off they go………

By Tricia S

June 24, 2008 1:59 PM | Link to this

And Pamela, are you really Dr. Laura?

By Catholic Girls ...

June 24, 2008 2:02 PM | Link to this

Any Catholic Moms with girls out there? I’m curious how you broach the sex talk with them. Do you push abstinence as the only acceptable form of contraception, or do you have a more realistic conversation mark it up as an acceptable diversion from dogma?

I am Catholic and my mom just pretty much ignored the subject altogether. We all turned out fine, perhaps not altogether virginal, but no children out of wedlock or diseases.

I have a five year old girl and wonder how our talk will go when the time comes.

Is sex ed even taught in Junior and Senior High at Catholic Schools?

By Jane

June 24, 2008 2:11 PM | Link to this

catlady: A very eliteist comment on whom should be allowed to have children and how many. Parents can teach but if the teenager is not listening they are talking to thin air. I have 2 children, both are grown and now dealing with their own kids - during the formative years the groundrules were laid - we taught them right from wrong. When my son’s girlfriend turned up pregnate in their Senior year of High School - he asked her to marry him - she said no - however, they have both done what is right by the child - they both work at it making sure their child has a roof over his head, clothes, education and he knows they both love him- and he loves them. Not the best circumstance at the time but I would not trade this child for anything. We need to realize that by the time our children reach their teen years they are in rebellion mode - Yes, I was there, I was involved more than my son wanted me to be and it still happened - it DOES NOT make me a bad parent. I did not make the choice, they did and thankfully they lived up to their responsibilities.

By Non applicable

June 24, 2008 2:16 PM | Link to this

Hearing about Jamie Lynn Spears & the Gloucester pact chilled my blood! My teen daughter is horribly disfigured & I guess the one silver lining is my husband & I have never had to worry about boys, dating, STD’s & pregnancy, as she’s never been asked out. Nor do we have to worry about bad-influence friends, as she HAS no friends. I often wonder how we’d cope with the issues of a so-called “normal” child.

By ManOfTeal

June 24, 2008 2:32 PM | Link to this

@Ladye J of G

Actually my name has to do with the fact that I am a huge Florida Marlins fan and teal is their team color. I’m not sure I’ve ever heard of Teal Nation before unless it is some sort of fan club associated with the Marlins.

By Ladye J

June 24, 2008 2:41 PM | Link to this

I’m formerly a Souther Floridian myself, but no, Teal Nation has to do with an act that has been known to perform at the Georgia Renaissance Fair.

By Jeff

June 24, 2008 2:54 PM | Link to this

JG:

Actually, I’m behind Barr now that Dr. Paul has dropped out. (Actually switched to Barr a couple of months back, back even before he was the official Libertarian Party nominee.)

Aside from that though, I can honestly state that I would vote for a Democrat if they could be trusted in regards to Individual Liberty and Personal Responsibility. I’ve never met one that could, and I don’t see it happening in the near future, but hey, ANYTHING is possible!

The FACT here is that if these kids had been taught Personal Responsibility from the time they were born, they would not have made this pact. NO ONE in their right minds thinks that having a baby doesn’t irreversibly change your life, and that you had better be prepared for it. (Of course, this brings up two side questions: 1) Has anyone ever known a teenager that was actually sane? 2) Has anyone ever met a female that was actually sane? (Note, ladies, that the second one is asked somewhere between 50-75% joking.))

Smaller government, where Individual Liberty and Personal Responsibility reign supreme, could have prevented this.

Big Brother only encourages it.

By Jesse's Girl

June 24, 2008 3:20 PM | Link to this

No Jeff…I have never met a fully sane woman. But look at the hand we’ve been dealt….living with and loving men who only use small portions of their two brains:)

Your perfect world theory is a wonderful footnote in fiction. Obviously, if more parents taught personal responsibility, our pregnancy rates wouldn’t be so super-sized. But it ain’t happenin’. Again…this has nothing to do with anything other than picking up the slack of soft-brained parents. I am so tired of politics being the backdrop for this. Unless freaky looking Bob Barr is going to personally come in and take the sex ed bull by the horns…or any other candidate for that matter…its a mute point. Education about how vaginas and penises work is not taking place in the home. It makes parents queezy…so let the schools do what they do best…teach.

By parentof4

June 24, 2008 3:27 PM | Link to this

yes I have heard of contraceptions. Which is why I also stated that I educate my children on that matter. However, I strongly believe and assert in my home that pre-marital sex should not happen. Now do I believe that they will abstain, I hope they will, but I will also teach them how to protect themselves. Also condoms (since I have 3 boys) are not fail proof. Nor do they fully protect you from STD’s.

To answer the other post: Morally one should abstain from sex before marriage. Which is what we teach in our home. Some are not as strong. But a lot of kids are doing it, because they want to fit in. I teach my children they do not need to “fit in” their friends lives, they will come and go, they need to fit in their life. They will have that for eternity.

By catlady

June 24, 2008 4:37 PM | Link to this

erinanne, I never said more educated parents do a better job. What I was getting at was supporting the kids. The more education you have, the MORE LIKELY you can support your kids. As a teacher, I see too many kids whose parents cannot afford them (just for routine things; never mind some of the extraordinary expenses kids can bring).

Some of the BEST PARENTS I know have virtually NO education. None of the mamas can read a lick, and only about a third of the daddies can. Yet, their kids are loved, taken care of, taught to act respectfully, and have a good bit expected of them. Probably 90% of them are doing a great job. However, they cannot afford to take care of the children’s needs, and must turn to other people to supply many of the basic needs of their children. Who am I talking about? The Guatemalans (Mayan) that I work with 180 days a year.

By catlady

June 24, 2008 5:15 PM | Link to this

Macro view, folks, not the micro Aunty Em stories, please! (We all know someone who, against every kind of trial, succeeds, but look at the big picture, instead. One out of ten? So it is okay with you to support the other 90%, and their children and grandchildren?)

By erinanne

June 24, 2008 5:18 PM | Link to this

No, catlady, what you discussed was limiting a person’s right to choose whether they wanted to have a child. You never mentioned financial responsibility.

By catlady

June 24, 2008 6:09 PM | Link to this

the ripple effect of folks having babies they cannot reasonably care for is far reaching and much more expensive than just money

Sounds like to ME I was talking about financial responsibility.

And show me the constitutional right to bear children? If your pursuit of life, liberty, and happiness means I pay for it, well then I am not getting MY rights for life, liberty, etc.

The problem with birth control (which I certainly do believe in) is that some folks don’t use it in a responsible way. Which leads to these babies that others have to pay for raising.

We cannot really talk much about how you and your sibs turned out okay. That was 20+ years ago. Are you willing to argue that the world is the same now as then?

Right now, we have too many people who cannot afford (either money or time/interest wise) to have kids having them, and having them over and over. And those who CAN afford it frequently LIMIT the size of their families. I bet if having a child WERE a privilege, folks would take more pride in doing a good job with what they were “allowed” to have.

Am I seriously advocating this? Naw. But it would be nice if those who depend on others to pay for their offspring would LIMIT how many they expect the rest of us to pay for. Or that there would be a limit as to how many we WOULD be required to subsidize. Like a maxium allotment for each woman of ONE. Any other children, she/her mate would have to pay for.

The world’s resources are too finite continue as we have been.

By pamela

June 24, 2008 6:51 PM | Link to this

JCT: My morality doesn’t come from other people’s sense of morality, but from what was instilled in me growing up with parents who felt their sphere of influence and values should be - and were - far more important than the actions of our society.

My mother was born in 1924, and I think she would very much disagree with your grandmother’s assessment of the attitude around morals in the 1940’s and 50’s. (Which by the way, what kind of grandmother would ever tell her 20-something year old grandchild that morality from her own generation was “manufactured”; that they were all sleeping around as teenagers? Not exactly a great message to be relaying to your grandkids as it basically implies it’s ok for you to have pre-marital sex - after all, we did. Frankly, that in itself says to me your grandmother had a much different moral code than my mother. She would’ve NEVER said anything like that to us or her grandkids - even if it WERE true!)

But regardless, the moral message at that time - manufactured or not - was one that at least MOST people were expected to live by: that it’s morally wrong for unmarried teenagers to have sex. Period. No discussion.

And the results of this high expectation of behavior and attitude? Much lower out-of-wedlock birth rates, along with much lower divorce rates, dysfunctional familes, crime rates, drug use and abuse, etc., the list goes on…as we all KNOW that most social ills increase when the family breaks down. And I don’t know what breaks down a family faster than an unmarried, irresponsible teen getting knocked up. Except for perhaps a society that condones it, or at least, doesn’t condemn it.

And I hate to break it to you, but children today are neither obedient, nor truthful.

And finally, you’ve made my point very clear that - like everyone else today - you seem to be resigned that your son will be influenced by a “nation that is a ‘do as I say and not as I do’ nation.

Um, who exactly do you think is raising your child? You or the nation? If you are a living example of the kind of moral standards you wish your son to live by, value, and respect - standards that are incapable of being corrupted by other’s choices to live otherwise - then you should have nothing to worry about.

But, my guess is that you - along with what I see here in this blog and around me - believe that just TELLING your son to make the right choices is good enough. But it’s not enough- you have to live it every day yourself because your choices, actions behavior and attitudes are the true embodiment - and the true test - of what you are TELLING your son. In other words, actions DO speak much louder than mere words.

So what if the rest of society doesn’t always live by what it says it stands for? Since when is that fact new? Since when do we rely on the state to determine what our morals should be? Isn’t your job as a parent to make sure your child is shown and taught to live up to standards instilled by YOU?

By Jesse's Girl

June 25, 2008 9:45 AM | Link to this

That sounds just dandy Pamela…really. But how do you propose we live a model sexual life in regards to our children, hm? I certainly do not sleep around or partake of anything that would give any other parent pause (even you). I think you have seriously misunderstood…or possibly just ignored…what we have been saying here. NONE of us want our children to be “of” this world. But we do not live in a vaccuum! As responsible parents, we must arm our children with many weapons…education being the most bad a$$ of them all. If we educate our children in the way they should go…while also educating them that not all of their friends are being taught the same things…then they immedaiately have an advantage. My children will not grow up thinking everything is pretty and fair. They know an age appropriate truth about most things. But they also know, intimately, that Christ is who we try to emulate. Maybe, just maybe Pamela, they will make friends who have not been raised this way and have an influence. But I also want them scared to death and totally disgusted at the thought of sex and childbirth. And if that can be reinforced at school with some movies, computer graphics and a coule of flow charts….then so be it.

By Tired of the PC Crap

June 25, 2008 6:05 PM | Link to this

In ways I agree with a lot of what’s been said here. I agree that there should be a limit on how many kids you can produce while receiving gov’t assistance. One saying I’ve heard over the years is “some people breed their way to prosperity”. They do this by having kids and remaining on WIC, food stamps, Sec 8 housing and the other gov’t programs. I think it’s very sad that school districts have had to put infant/child seats into buses to transport teen moms/dads & their kid to the district funded daycare. I have 2 boys and taught them that sex is a huge responsibility because of the potential outcomes (kids or diseases). I’m not gullible enough to think that because I teach them that abstinance is the only proven method of preventing unwanted/untimely pregnancy or life changing diseases that they won’t have sex before their minds catch up with their bodies. So, I also taught/teach them that condoms are better then nothing. And, to ask the girl if she’s using any type of birth control. And, to never trust a condom that an “easy” girl carries because it could have pin holes in to get pregnant on purpose. My oldest came to me one day asking how to make sure a condom doesn’t have holes in it. I used a rubber glove to show him. As parents we have to be proactive instead of reactive. We homeschool our youngest because of the issues of schools being reluctant to discipline kids. The schools fear being sued for discipling so much that they just don’t anymore. We really have to put shame back into being “slutty” or “easy” and this goes for both girls and boys. I for one am tired of having to pay for other peoples mistakes. The 60’s may have been about sex/drugs/rock-n-roll. But, 2000’s have been about “anything goes and anything is OK”. I do not however think that elementary age kids should be taught about sex. Middle School, for me, is the time to start that. When their bodies are starting to change faster then what us over 40 went thru. The kids today physically mature faster then kids 20-30 years ago. And, if we as parents don’t talk them thru that stage we are just kidding ourselves that nothing is going to happen to them. Too bad the “outside world” has more influence on our kids than we as parents have on them, at times.

By FCM

June 25, 2008 7:12 PM | Link to this

I’m out here reading…will post as soon as I can…I know y’all will wait baited breath. Hahahaha

Still figuring out the commute to the new employment. LOVE IT!

However, I miss y’all and need to find away to post…if they just kept the blog line open until 9!

By k

July 15, 2008 7:28 PM | Link to this

All of the points made here have their places in this debate. However, everyone seems to be missing the point. Kids are people and people don’t make the right decisions for themselves when they don’t like or respect themselves. You can tell your kids in every way, shape or form why they shouldn’t do bad things, but the only thing that is going to get them to make the right choices is because they care enough about themselves to bother. If you have self esteem and self respect you will make your decisions based on what’s best for you. I grew up without either one of these things and was into drugs, drinking and had 2 kids by the time I was 18. Needless to say college was never an option even though I have an IQ of 140. I never cared enough to do the right thing for myself. Kids who get into drugs, drinking, sex too early, gangs and other illegal activities honestly do not care what happens to themselves. They don’t think they deserve good and decent lives so they don’t bother to strive for them.