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DEL.ICIO.USWhen to exercise modesty at the Y?
Does it matter if a 4-year-old boy changes in front of a 6-year-old girl?
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
When we finished our swimming lessons last week, we walked into the women’s family locker room with another 6-year-old girl and her mother. We were chatting with them while the girls were getting changed. My 6-year-old daughter, who is not particular shy about changing in front of others, just stripped right down. The other little girl’s mother held a towel around her daughter while she changed.
I wondered if she did it because she didn’t want my 4-year-old son seeing her naked and then I wondered if she wouldn’t want her daughter seeing my son undress? So to be safe, I took him around the corner to another area to change him. When I came back her mother offered up that her daughter was just shy about it — she wasn’t worried about my son on either count.
But it made me wonder at what age is it inappropriate for my son to see other little girls change and vice versa?
The Y has a women’s family dressing room and a men’s family dressing room. It is intended for parents to be able to keep their children with them and dress them. I’m usually the one to take the kids so my son usually ends up in the ladies’ dressing room. I guess if my husband were to take them, I wouldn’t want my daughter at this age changing in front of men or older boys or her seeing men getting dressed. I might let my daughter change alone in the women’s dressing room but I sure as heck wouldn’t let my son change alone in the men’s (and I don’t think I would for a long time).
There is a little area by the pool where you can pull the curtains and they could change without showering. That might be a stop-gap solution.
At what age should children exercise modesty when changing clothes?
Permalink | Comments (272) | Categories: Ethics of rearing kids today
Comments
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By FCM
January 22, 2008 7:42 AM | Link to this
My eldest still vividly remembers when a mom of a (male) school mate opended the bathroom door while he was doing his business…..She apprently got an eyeful….she was also the age Walsh is now…..so in my opinion he doesn’t need to be in the Ladies Changing area….
By Theresa
January 22, 2008 8:14 AM | Link to this
Where are you going to send him? You can’t send him alone into the men’s area. THey do have stalls in the ladie’s area so maybe that would help — I called the Y to check on the age they can be in the opposite locker room — I know it’s at least 6 and I think it might even be older — they haven’t called back — I’ll post it when they call back
FCM — i responded twice to your snow inquirery last week and the computer screwed up — both kids loved the snow that first day and on Saturday — Walsh was just estatic — we took lots of home movies and photos —
By FCM
January 22, 2008 8:27 AM | Link to this
Theresa, I do feel your pain….the oldest doesn’t want me tagging after her to the Ladies room (in public) or to have join me in there (even though she is not in the stall with me in either case)….She is barely older than your Rose.
I think you should send Rose in to change, then stand with Walsh in the hall…periodically you can check in Rose if she is taking to long…..I have done that with my oldest as a compromise on the tag-a-long situation—when she has to go. Please understand that I am only thinking of the changing area, not a regular restroom….how would you feel if a grown woman (say 20 yo) decided to change in the locker room (not a stall) and he got an eyeful?
I am only speaking from the fact that my daughter was commenting on the ‘boy in the bathroom’ (her reference)just this weekend…and its been almost 5 years!
I am glad they enjoyed the snow. Mine did too, sending photos to their granparents now.
By One
January 22, 2008 9:02 AM | Link to this
Once they’re old enough to walk and talk, be aware! Kids notice more than we think, and will definitely talk about it. So I say, yes, your 4 yr. old son is too old to be seeing females (of any age or relation) naked.
By Jesse's Girl
January 22, 2008 9:14 AM | Link to this
None of this ever occured to me until The Boy came along. My first taste of uh-oh came in the hospital just minutes after he was born. Our oldest…who had just turned 6 the day before….announced “Hey! Whats that thing where his bagina’s ‘sposed’ to be?” I knew then it was time to employ a more age appropriate tact about keeping things covered and tasteful. I never let The Boy bathe with his sisters for this very reason. He knows that a lady’s parts are private as are a gentlemen’s. To which he replies “But I’m not a gentle-man. I’m-uh-tuff-man.” Now he launches strategic military like attacks on their bedrooms just to hear them scream. They love their brother…they really do.
By Aurora
January 22, 2008 9:22 AM | Link to this
Why is everyone hung up on the naked body. The human body is beautiful and for some strange reason, we Americans are scarred to death of naked bodies. We are teaching our kids its wrong to like our bodies.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with the naked body……Why are we so uptight.
By Jeff in Roswell
January 22, 2008 9:45 AM | Link to this
I agree with Aurora. We are sending the wrong message to the kids. I’m all for modesty but, the fact is, boys have a penis and girls have a vagina. If we teach children that the opposite sex has something to hide, then naturally they will want to find out what’s under the clothes. My son (almost 4) loves to run around the house naked after a bath and we don’t discourage it. My wife does not hide her nakedness (is that a word?) from him and I expect she won’t for a while. I just don’t think we need to get all hung up on it. He is starting to show his modesty already by asking us to shut the door when he is doing his business on the toilet. LOL… what an adventure!
By Jess
January 22, 2008 10:03 AM | Link to this
I have never really thought anything if a mother bring her male child into the restroom with her…until this fall. I was at a football game at Clemson University and a boy accompanied his mother in the restroom…and he had to be 8 or 9. I do not have children and I am only 25yo - so I admit that I am not alway spot on when guessing a child’s age. I was shocked at the age of this boy in the ladies restroom though and was temped to make a comment to his mother.
By Anon
January 22, 2008 10:18 AM | Link to this
Jess Why? What would you have said to the mother? What business it is of yours? Did it offend you that a small boy was in the ladies room? You said you were only 25, are you uncomfortable with a child possibly seeing you do something we all do? Pee. Or are you uptight about your body and sex?
She probably didn’t want him going into the mens room alone, I mean there is a huge crowd at football games. You do know that’s where wierdos hang out, right?
By One
January 22, 2008 10:21 AM | Link to this
I haven’t read any uptight comments. No one is saying be ashamed of your naked body, but hell, everyone (and their child) does not want to see it!!!!! I think children should be taught about the human body, the differences between the sexes, and all that, but damn, do we have to give them live, visual examples??? I say NO!!!! And regardless of what you do (or don’t do), they will all be curious to see the other side, esp. the boys, they all want the goodies, whether they’ve ever seen them or not!!
And who’s wife is walking around naked in front of her son? IDIOT!!!!!!!!!!! This is more about respect, than being ashamed of nakedness!!!!
By Jesse's Girl
January 22, 2008 10:28 AM | Link to this
I will not allow my children to go to public restrooms alone. Especially my boy.
@Jeff in Roswell….I think your wife should start teaching your son that a woman’s body is to be repsected. I stopped undressing in front of my son when he was around 2. I never give silly names to body parts or act as if the human body is something to hide….but it should be respected and looked upon with grace and dignity. In my opinion, a 4 year old boy who is coming into contact with other females in school, should see more discretion in the home. Thats not being prudish…its being realistic.
By Jess
January 22, 2008 10:33 AM | Link to this
Anon I don’t know what I would have said to the mother, hence the fact I didn;t say anything. You say SMALL boy and 8 or 9 is not that small. I would have no problem with a younger child. I do not feel that it would have been inappropriate to let him go in the mens room and wait for him outside, as others here have suggested. If she is not comfortable doing that then she should have a trusted male at the game to take him in or think about that situation beforehand. She could even take him during a quarter when the restroom is not as crowded. I am sorry but having a 8yo boy peering at me through the cracks of the stall while I squat to pee in a college stadium bathroom is not approproate. It has nothing to do with my body or sex.
By Martha
January 22, 2008 10:43 AM | Link to this
No, I do not want to see older males in the restrooms and don’t particularly want to see the younger ones, either, but do understand for safety’s sake little ones are okay. However, 8 or 9? You stand outside the door and listen and let him go in the men’s room. OR find a restroom with just one…. ahhh…errr…facility and take him there.
By Martha
January 22, 2008 10:43 AM | Link to this
No, I do not want to see older males in the restrooms and don’t particularly want to see the younger ones, either, but do understand for safety’s sake little ones are okay. However, 8 or 9? You stand outside the door and listen and let him go in the men’s room. OR find a restroom with just one…. ahhh…errr…facility and take him there.
By Anon
January 22, 2008 10:45 AM | Link to this
Jess If he was peering, then yes, I would have said something TO HIM. However, he needs to go to the bathroom too, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with his mother taking him with her. She was keeping him safe and by her side at a very crowded venue.
There are some moms (single or married) out there, who like to take their sons to football games. Some of us do not need a “trusted male” to go with them, this is 2008, not 1948. You sound very prudish for a 25 year old woman. And you don’t have kids either. If you did, you would have thought differently about an 8 year old in the bathroom.
By Jesse's Girl
January 22, 2008 10:45 AM | Link to this
Has anyone else noticed how JEFF has been oddly absent as of late? Hhmmm.
By One
January 22, 2008 10:47 AM | Link to this
The problem with letting it all hang out, is having to put it all back in!!!!
I guess next the argument will be that we should not be ashamed to have sex in front of our kids, after all, it is making love, a beautiful act between two consenting, hopefully married adults!! If we hide it from them, they will only want to see (and do) it more! Puuuhhhllleeaaaaazzzzee!!! Grow up and act like adults people!!!
By Jesse's Girl
January 22, 2008 10:53 AM | Link to this
@ One….I agree with you….but take a breath. Lay off the espresso…or have some. Whatever the case may be:)
By MrHughes
January 22, 2008 10:53 AM | Link to this
An 8 year old should be able to go to the bathroom by himself. You can’t shield your children from everything for their entire lives. At what point will you allow him to go to the bathroom by himself, age 10, 12, 14, 16? What are they going to do when they come across wierdos later on and (gasp) mommie and daddy aren’t there with them?
As for modesty… I think one should always think of others comfort and err on the side of caution. I thought the whole point of these family rooms was that the door could be locked and that the family had privacy, so they would not have to deal with members of the oposite sex outside the family. Aren’t these family dressing rooms just the size of a small bathroom? Also, I don’t understand the double standard here. It’s okay for your daughter to change alone in the womens dressing room, but you would not let her change with a man present, or send your son alone into the mens dressing room. What does that say about how we view men in our culture? What are you saying to your daughter about not only her ability to take care of herself, but what to expect from the opposite sex? Not all men are sexual deviants. I’m sure plenty of men take their daughters into family changing rooms without incident. Why not just teach your children about their bodies, how to deal with these types of situations rather than playing the part of the overprotective parent. FYI: The overwhelming majority of sexual abuse is perpetrated by family members rather than strangers/male wierdos waiting around in bathrooms at football games.
By FCM
January 22, 2008 10:54 AM | Link to this
I am not ashamed of the human body…ok maybe there are parts of my body I wished were better sculpted but that’s different. However, I do not think that encouraging children to be nekkid in front of their peers is wise….What is next Jeff and Aurora allowing your children overnight guests of the opposite sex in their room?
By Jeff in Roswell
January 22, 2008 10:58 AM | Link to this
@ Jesse’s Girl - are you serious? When did I ever say or implied that my son does or would not respect a woman’s body? What the hell do you think he does - stand there and ogle her? He barely even notices her - and that’s because we don’t make a HUGE deal out of a naked body. You got some hangups to deal with lady.
By PHR
January 22, 2008 11:02 AM | Link to this
At our YMCA they have family dressing rooms for this exact issue. They are individual rooms with a toilet, sink, and shower. That is what I use with my son.
My rule of thumb was when he noticed a difference what I looked like and what he looked like.
By One
January 22, 2008 11:04 AM | Link to this
Jesse’s Girl, I definitely don’t need one! lol I’m sure my work-related frustrations seeped into that one!
MrHughes, I agree, that sends a strong message to your kids, girls and boys. And honestly, these days, neither sex is safe! So true about the sexual abuse by family members!
By Jess
January 22, 2008 11:04 AM | Link to this
The trusted male comment had to do with someone accompanying her child into the restroom and absolutely nothing to do with 1948 or an opinion that a man is needed to do anything! I am not prudish and think women can and should do things that men can. I do not share those notions and I think it is great if a mom wants to take her son with her to a football game. However, he was absolutely WAY too old to be in the womens restroom. These restrooms are not huge like you may see at the GA Dome or somewhere. They are 5 or 6 stalls and people stand in line in front of the stalls. And there was a 3rd or 4th grade boy standing there. I do not have children but that doesn’t matter. I would have stood outside the men’s restroom while he went in. If a parent has raised their child right then they know not to talk to strangers and not to let anyone mess with them, especially at an older age. If they are in the mens room and someone approaches them and starts hassling them, they scream and mom runs in… Or if he is in too long mom asks another gentleman going in to check on the child. I know my Dad, brothers of boyfried would have no problem checking in on a child in the restroom if a mother asked about him. I know that not everyone in this world is a kind person and that things happen…but is she going to let him come in the womens restroom when he is 13 because someone mught get him?? You must remember, this was an older boy…his size alarmed me that he was in the womens room. This was not a young child!
By One
January 22, 2008 11:07 AM | Link to this
Guess what, Jeff? Whether you make a huge deal about it or not, he is noticing, and at some point he and his little friends will take it there!!! Do we not realize that our young ones have memories???? Most times better than ours, and like I said, I’m willing to bet cold hard cash, he IS noticing!
I have another question??
At what age do you all think it is inappropriate to bathe your little ones of the opposite sex together? Or is it appropriate at all?
By jmc
January 22, 2008 11:09 AM | Link to this
Anon- I don’t blame her one bit. That 9 year old probably has nudie books under his mattress already. He’s just getting free peek shows thanks to mom. I’m sure he relays everything to all of his friends too. He may have even taken a few photos with his cell and have them distributed to the entire elementary school by now. Get your head out of the sand!!! Boys start looking at age 5 or earlier.
By Jeff in Roswell
January 22, 2008 11:10 AM | Link to this
@FCM - you bring up some interesting points. My sister will be here next week from out of town and will be bringing her two children. My nephew is a year older than my son and my niece is a year younger. Now, I can tell you this, they will probably take a bath together and they ARE going to all sleep in the same room together. Jesus people, we’re talking about 3,4 and 5 year olds…
Ohhhh! the horror of it all!
By FCM
January 22, 2008 11:13 AM | Link to this
I am sure most of you know that my ‘wise’ should have read ‘unwise’ sorry about the typo.
By Jeff in Roswell
January 22, 2008 11:16 AM | Link to this
What we have here is a number of people that 1. don’t have children 2. are ashamed of the human body 3. have hangups about sex and 4. have no earthly idea what goes on in a child’s mind. For those with children, I feel very sorry for them. For those without - Thank GOD!
By a little uncomfortable
January 22, 2008 11:17 AM | Link to this
I’ve never been comfortable with little boys being in the ladies’ locker room with their mom. I feel a bit shy about parading around in front of them. But maybe I’m just being prudish. There was that time I just got out of the jacuzzi and was very relaxed and a little spacy and accidentally wandered into the men’s locker room. I didn’t even notice till I saw ppl that didn’t look like me. One of the guys said to me, “Yes, you’re in the men’s locker room!” Talk about your most embarrassing moment!
By One
January 22, 2008 11:36 AM | Link to this
What we have here is a number of people who 1. have children and understand the importance of teaching their child respect and discretion 2. know that they don’t have to show something off to prove they are not ashamed of it 3. have respect for themselves and others, esp. children 4. has a very good idea of what goes on in the mind of a child. For those with them, keep up the good work!! For those without them - thank GOD!!!!!!
By Jesse's Girl
January 22, 2008 11:39 AM | Link to this
You’d be surprised how hang-up-less I am. But again…it all boils down to what you feel is appropriate to show and what isn’t. Its simply a matter of personal preference. I feel that a 4 year old boy should not be seeing his mother nude. The fact that you do not make a big deal out of it is so far from the point its funny Jeff. Do you seriously think that other families feel he may come into contact with have the same casual take on this? Maybe. Maybe not. I think it was your comment regarding your suspicion that your wife won’t show discretion for a while that took us by surprise. He’s 4. Shut the door.
By PurpleOne
January 22, 2008 11:42 AM | Link to this
I had to do this with my son on many occasions until about age 8 or so but I knew of a kid, many many years ago in another state, that went into a public bathroom in a mall, around the age of 6 and mom waited for him to come out and he was killed and his penis chopped off so because of my personal experience, my son went with me so everyone else just had to get over it and say whatever they had to say and when he got to the point where he thought he was too big, he asked if he could go in the men’s room and you better believe, even outside the door, I pushed that door open and hollered in every 30 seconds and watched who went in and came out because I would have gone right in had he not answered! This probably went on until he was about 10 :-)
By Pat
January 22, 2008 11:51 AM | Link to this
I can remember running into this problem when mine were small, since their father traveled all the time and we often went to a local beach club. Between the ages of say 4 and 8, I solved it by putting my hands over his eyes as I led him into the dressing room or bathroom and shoving the poor baby into a stall. ANd then I made him stay there until his sister and I were done. Back went the hands and then we were out. Sorry, it’s got something to do with modesty, of course. He wasn’t comfortable about going after the age of six but, honestly, I was scared to death to let him go into the mens’ side alone. After that, I sent him to change, timed him and waited outside the entrance. Trust me, when the time was up and he wasn’t out, I started yelling through the doorway and I wasn’t above crashing in (whether there was anyone in there or not) to find him. As for my daughter, she had her own sense of modesty and at about age 6 she started covering up when we changed. Her choice. I encouraged modesty, but didn’t freak out if one of the kids walked in on me when I was changing. I just turned them around and asked them not to do it again. It’s a fine line, but one you have to walk until they’re trained.
By Jess
January 22, 2008 11:55 AM | Link to this
I would just like to say that I am not ashamed by the human body and do not have issues. I would just prefer that an older boy use the mens restroom. I do not have children but I do plan on having children one day. It is nice to see how each of your opinions varies on this subject. However, I still would not allow my 8yo male child to use the womens restroom under the circumstances.
As far as the naked thing…I can remember being about 5yo and my parents didn’t change in front of me on a regular basis. We were visiting my dad’s parents and were all sharing a room - mom, dad, 5yo child. Well, my mom changed in front of me figuring she was a girl and I am a girl. I can still remember that and it was weird and I was a girl.
Just something to keep in mind.
By Jeff in Roswell
January 22, 2008 11:56 AM | Link to this
Guess what? I really don’t care what the two of you board w******* think. Your silly and archaic way of thinking is not going to change the way I parent my child. Everybody has a way of doing things and you know what? - it works for them. Get over yourselves… you aren’t all that.
By MrHughes
January 22, 2008 11:59 AM | Link to this
The ultimate judge of one’s behavior is if they would be willing to engage in it when they were not only around their immediate family. So, if Jeff in Roswell’s wife is unwilling to “hide her nakedness from him [and, his friends from school, your family members when they visit this weekend, the neighbors], then we have a true believer. That’s the true judge of whether this behavior is really acceptable right? Unfortunately, your son will be very popular or very unpopular. It seems your son is already telling you how he feels though by closing the door when “doing his business on the toilet”. But, keep telling yourself we “have no earthly idea what goes on in a child’s mind” when the empircal evidence you provided is to the contary.
By Jesse's Girl
January 22, 2008 12:18 PM | Link to this
Me thinks one doth protest too much. Kudos on the maturity level….way to let a bunch of cyber-moms get the better of you. You just attempted to hit us over the head with your club. Archaic indeed.
By Jesse's Girl
January 22, 2008 12:21 PM | Link to this
I don’t know about the rest of us here (though I have my suspicions!)…..but I actually am all that:)So thanks and have a super terrific day Jeff In Roswell.
By One
January 22, 2008 12:24 PM | Link to this
HAHAHAHAHAHA!! Looks like someone needs to step away from the caffeine!!! It is funny, however, to see the real grown ups have a discussion without name calling………and the fake grown ups who have to resort to such! lol
MrHughes, good points!!!
By JJ
January 22, 2008 12:27 PM | Link to this
I have discussed this topic with a few co-workers today. One of my male co-workers has two boys 6 and 2. They have season tickets to the Falcons games. They allow their 6 year to go to the bathroom BY HIMSELF, while they remain in their seats. If he is not back in 2 minutes, his father goes to get him.
I personally see nothing wrong with having a boy in the women’s bathroom. If he is intentionally walking up to the stalls and peering in, then it becomes a problem. However, if he is just in there with his mom, what’s the harm. He must know that women have to go to the bathroom, but there are stalls & doors for privacy. The only thing he will see is you washing your hands. Not too many women come out of stalls with their stuff hanging out for all to see.
And Jess honey, you are uptight. If you were bothered by your mother undressing in front of you at age 5, and it still makes you uncomfortable 20 years later, you have some issues. I still dress and undress in front of my daughter when she is in my room, and she is 17. We are both female, and have the same parts. She is not shy about her body either.
Hell, I’m not at all shy about changing my shirt in front of my girl friends……I’m very comfortable with my body.
By punctuation and grammar police
January 22, 2008 12:29 PM | Link to this
Wow!! I am surprised that so many here today are getting upset (both sides of the argument). I think there is a happy medium. Just would like to make a comment about the 8yo boy in the bathroom. Are there not doors on the stalls? Has anyone ever seen a woman come out of the stall undressed? If not, then why are the feathers flying? I’ve personally never seen a boy peeking under the stall either.
I completely understand why a mother would not allow her son to use the bathroom by himself in this day and age (too many bold child molesters out there). I vividly remember a little 7yo girl that was murdered by a teenage boy in a casino bathroom. So yes, bad things happen to children in a public bathroom!! If I were to take my son in the bathroom/changing room, I would certainly try to respect others privacy. But I think that both can be accomplished. Covering the child’s eyes or holding up a sheet/towel or merely have him stand and look in the corner.
I suppose at some age you have to let your son go into the men’s room by himself. I’m not sure exactly what age I will do this. I will probably stand right outside the door and wait for him. I will probably periodically crack the door open a hair and ask him how things are going if he is not exactly “quick draw”.
My son just turned two on the 14th and yes I still undress in front of him on occasion. I don’t think he thinks anything of it. I’m not sure if there is a magical age when I will stop. I agree that Americans make way too much of this IMHO, but I certainly respect others’ opinions on the subject. I plan to teach my son that he should always respect a woman and her body.
By WTF
January 22, 2008 12:30 PM | Link to this
Maybe that’s what he calls his wife while she’s running around nekkid in front of their child! LMSAO
“board”?! Oh, you meant “bored”!!
By punctuation and grammar police
January 22, 2008 12:33 PM | Link to this
Jess, I suspect that your mom changing in front of you seemed “weird” because she didn’t routinely do this in front of you. I bet if she did, it wouldn’t seem so strange. Just something to think about.
By Pauly
January 22, 2008 12:44 PM | Link to this
“…I wouldn’t want my daughter at this age changing in front of men or older boys…”
So it’s ok for your son to change in front of women, but not your daughter in front of men?
Prejudiced much? Thanks for perpetuating the “all men are potential sexual predators” stereotype, Theresa.
By Anon
January 22, 2008 1:00 PM | Link to this
Pauly The stats are true. There are far more male sexual predators than female. Hardly a sterotype.
By Jeff
January 22, 2008 1:13 PM | Link to this
JG:
Thought I’d let the flame war die down a bit. As I’ve said, I don’t mind fighting, but I DO try to avoid it where possible. Though I DESPARATELY wanted to continue the fight we were having a couple of weeks ago - about the only thing I hate more than getting into a fight is not winning it (and that was a draw a couple of weeks ago, there was no winning from either side) - I finally realized that there would be no winner, so I disappeared for a while to let the flames die down.
On topic:
A kid has a single weapon that they use within minutes of being born and is a viable weapon in pretty much any situation where the parent is somewhat near: their extremely loud, high pitched voice.
You teach the kids from birth that a yell of help from them has you busting into the room ready to drop every single person in it. You then teach them that SEVERE penalties await any false alarms.
Then, you simply wait outside while your opposite-sex kid goes into the restroom to do their thing.
If they yell for help, bust in and clear the room.
There is virtually no way for a perp to beat this in a crowded room without drawing attention to him/her self. Granted, a restroom containing just the perp and your kid tilts the odds SLIGHTLY towards the perp, but only slightly.
By Pauly
January 22, 2008 1:16 PM | Link to this
@Anon - I like fried chicken, as do many of my other african-american friends. I guess that makes it “hardly a stereotype” as well?
Stereotype: Biased generalizations about a group based on hearsay, opinions, and distorted, preconceived ideas.
Yeah… you’re right. Hardly a stereotype.
By MrHughes
January 22, 2008 1:30 PM | Link to this
Anon, Yes there are more males commiting sexual crimes than females. But, the distinction is that the overwhelming majority sexual abuse is committed by one’s immediate male family members. In other words, cases of sexual abuse, are most often committed by someone that the child knows. The cases of strangers messing with children much less frequent. Kind of like the razor blades in apples on Halloween thing. Don’t ignore the stats to just make your point. Lets look at another example… Based on reports from the media, one would think the majority of sexual misconduct at schools involves female teachers engaging in sexual conduct with underaged male students. Therefore, should parents stop sending their children to any school (public, private, parochial)based on a few sensationalized stories? “No female teachers for Johnny because Miss Crabtree might try to give it to him like that Mary Kay Letournea!” That’s what some of you all sound like in regards to sending a child into the public bathroom alone. I’m not against standing outside of a bathroom and waiting on a child or checking on them if they have been several minutes. But, an 8 year old boy should be able to use a public bathroom by himself rather than having an escort into the ladies room with mommie. Clearly, a child that had special needs would be an exception to the above.
By Anon
January 22, 2008 1:37 PM | Link to this
Pauly Only if they like watermelon too……
By JP
January 22, 2008 1:39 PM | Link to this
Jess, how do you know the child was 8 or 9? Did you ask? I have two friends who have boys that look very old for their ages. In Kindergarten they looked like they were 8 or 9 so, you can’t judge based on appearance alone.
I’ll take my boys into the women’s restroom with me if I feel the environment we are in is not safe enough. Now at 11 and 8, if their Dad is not with us or another male, they must always go into the restroom together. And I am right outside the door. If they aren’t our in a reasonable amount of time. I’m going in. (hasn’t occurred yet, but I won’t hesistate). But, when they were younger or even now if I have only the younger one with me, he is coming in to the Women’s restroom. Women’s restrooms have stalls. They don’t see anyting and they don’t “peer” through the cracks. If a child peers through the crack of the door, say something but don’t ban them from the restroom. My childs safety is more important than your hang up.
By Pauly
January 22, 2008 1:47 PM | Link to this
@Anon - Ahhhh. Got it now. Troll.
Sorry everyone… I didn’t mean to feed the troll.
By Anon
January 22, 2008 1:51 PM | Link to this
JP I’m with you. I will put my kids safety way up there as a #1 priority…..Your hang up isn’t my problem!!!!!
By 3 year old pervert
January 22, 2008 1:54 PM | Link to this
I spend most of my waking hours trying to look up skirts and down blouses. My need to see the flesh is just overwhelming. When my mommy takes me into the ladies bathroom I go right over to the crack in the stall to see if I can see some stuff. I’m obsessed with looking at the female form.
By Anon
January 22, 2008 1:58 PM | Link to this
Pauly I’m not a troll. You are not contibuting anything viable to this topic……..other than the fact that you are african american (what part of africa are you from) and you eat fried chicken……
By FCM
January 22, 2008 1:59 PM | Link to this
2 things….1-Theresa said there was a stop gap…a non shower changing area she could use. 2-Changing area vs restroom to me is 2 different questions. Does she want Walsh to see a full grown (stranger) woman changing her clothes at the Y? Potential is there.
Even if we decided that running nekkid as Jay Birds in Eden was OK for all don’t we need to teach our children to respect OTHER PEOPLE’s privacy?
I understand and feel her pain. I grieve for every child harmed (in a bathroom or not)….but the fact is that going to the bathroom in a public faciltiy is a LIFE SKILL.
If she’s not OK with either child changing without her then do what I did as a kid….take a warm up suit toss it over your swim suit and go home to change. (I did that for time constraint reasons though not shower reasons).
By nurse&mother
January 22, 2008 2:02 PM | Link to this
Good point JP regarding assuming the age of a child. The woman posting her experience with the alleged 8yo already admits to not having children and further admits to not knowing the exact age.
By embarrassing
January 22, 2008 2:07 PM | Link to this
If it’s just the rest room, I don’t personally feel there’s that much wrong with it esp. if the little boy is young. As others have pointed out, the stalls are private. And definitely I don’t think it’s safe to let your child go into the restroom alone if you’re the opposite gender and can’t take him. That said, I think it would be embarrassing for the little boy.
And on another topic, please train your child not to wander into the bathroom without knocking when you have guests. Your child should know that if the door is closed a stranger could be in there. I’ve had that happen a couple of times and it’s very embarrassing for me and for the child.
By Aurora
January 22, 2008 2:35 PM | Link to this
Well, I just have to laugh about all you posters who are embarrassed about a small child seeing you in the bathroom. I am sure it will ruin them for life!!!!
By Jeff
January 22, 2008 2:35 PM | Link to this
I’m kinda agreeing with 3yo on this one.
Remember the old joke about taking a baby to a strip club? They get confused, thinking EVERYTHING is food…
Small kids often think highly annoying (and illegal if they were older) activities are ‘fun’. It could very well get them into FAR more trouble than 99.999999% of them are EVER going to encounter using a public restroom alone with mommy just outside the door.
By Jess
January 22, 2008 3:11 PM | Link to this
I stated that I was not certain how old the child was. If he was not as old as he looked then it is understandable that his mother would have him with her.
He looked 8 or 9 and I have friends and fmaily members with children and that was the estimated age.
A friend was with me in the restroom that day and she has issues with it to. And she is a mother and still felt the same way. The fact that I do not have children does not mean my opinion is not valid. And it is my opinion…no reason for people to be rude to one another.
By Jess
January 22, 2008 3:26 PM | Link to this
And for all the comments about there being doors on the stalls so the boy being in the restroom should not be a problem…I assume that if a grown man wanted to bring his daughter in the womens restroom rather than expose her to urinals in the mens room you would be alright with that too? I mean there are stalls for privacy!
Why should we even have seperated male/female bathrooms anyway?
By Becky
January 22, 2008 3:32 PM | Link to this
I have 5yo twin grandbabies & the boy doesn’t want to go into the restroom with the girls..I’ll let him in the mens’s room alone, but as someone else posted, I’ll stand by the door & watch everyone that goes in & YES, I will open the door & check on him..Anyone that has children know that at a certain age they think they are grown & want to do things on their own..As far the person that lets his 6 yo son go to the bathroom alone at the Falcon’s game, no freaking way..There are way to many children being molested (&or) killed because parent’s let them go places by theirselves, so until people stop harming children, I’ll take my grandson into the restroom with me anytime..Vice versa for my husband with our granddaughter..
By MrHughes
January 22, 2008 3:39 PM | Link to this
Some of ya’ll safety of my children people kill me. I didn’t realize that public restrooms were these places of ill repute. Next thing you know, you will need a permission slip for your child to use the public restroom at school. Didn’t you hear, that’s where all the child molesters are? Do you have to sign an additional permission slip for your children to venture into the den of satan that is the public restroom when visiting locations on field trips such as Fernbank Science Musuem, The Atlanta History Center, The State Capitol, Six Flags, The Georgia Aquarium, The New World of Coca-Cola, The Margret Mitchell House, The Cyclorama, CNN Center, The Zoo, and the Fox Theater? Do you think the schools supervise your children “doing their business” at school or on the these field trips? I must have missed the episode of Dateline where the child molesters where picking up children in public restrooms who didn’t have mother hens in tow. What about all those other children? Those are truly the children left behind. Now, I know what Bush was talking about all those years ago. It wasn’t about education. It was about bringing family values back into the bathroom.
In all seriousness… the last place parents really need to protect children from is the bathroom. The truth is you are safer in the bathroom than you in your own house. How about protecting the child from the family members that think it’s okay to sexually abuse them and the parents that okay it under the guise of family? How about protecting children by treating them like have some capabilty beyond the womb? How about treating children like you have an expectation that they will grow up? On the other hand, some of you all are likely the same people that will buy your kids new cars at 16 and let them stay out til 3AM thinking they’ve grown up after all the quality time you spent with them while they/you were doing their/your business in the bathroom.
By jmc
January 22, 2008 3:40 PM | Link to this
Jessie G - I think he’s Mr.Hughes today…who know with all his screen names. Jess- chill out. I’m with you on this one. If your kids over 5 - keep him outta the ladies room. I’ve experienced this before and I just let the mom and son do their thing first. We have a few helicopter moms in here today so don’t let it bum you out.
By momtoAlex&Max
January 22, 2008 3:47 PM | Link to this
As a mother of two boys ages 5 and 7, I struggle with this one. Where we got for swimming lessons, there’s a family changing room and then there are men’s and women’s. It is clearly posted that there are NO boys/men allowed in the women’s changing room and NO girls/women allowed in the men’s changing room. That’s what the family changing room is there for. Use it.
As for the restrooms, the boys go together to the men’s room and as they open the door, I yell (loud enough to be heard inside) : “I am right here, if you are not out in 4 minutes I am coming in!”. Never had to do it, but it is a good “warning” I think.
I personally think, my 5 year old is already too old to come in with to the women’s room. Yesterday, we went to the movies and they sat on a bench right outside while I went in.
By MrHughes
January 22, 2008 3:53 PM | Link to this
@Jess You have some great points? Why can’t a man take his daughter into the ladies room since there’s so much privacy from the stalls and what not? How would that same man look taking his daughter into a public men’s room? It’s interesting that this is seen okay mainly by mothers with small boys.
Child molesters are not waiting around in public restrooms to feel up your children. The overwhelming majority of people are in the bathroom for the purposes of going to the bathroom. Going to the bathroom by yourself once you’ve reached the age of 8 is a life skill. You can’t be around your children to supervise them for the rest of their lives.
By just my opinion ...
January 22, 2008 3:55 PM | Link to this
As far as girls going into men’s rooms, girls think men’s rooms are gross. Urinals are just ugly and kind of scary.
By Aurora
January 22, 2008 4:00 PM | Link to this
All of us have different styles of parenting our children. Some of us are over protective, and some don’t give a rat’s butt and allow their child to do as they please.
I will decide whats best for my child, and YOU can decide what’s best for your child. If I choose to take my 8 year old son into the ladies room, I will. And I dare one person to say one word to me. It is none of their business.
As I read these comments, however, I can tell who has kids, and who doesn’t. The ones calling us helicopter moms do not have kids. Those who say a 6 year boy is too old to be in a woman’s bathroom don’t have kids either.
It the ones who don’t have kids, who seem to be the authority on raising them.
By Jeff
January 22, 2008 4:07 PM | Link to this
jmc:
FYI: I’ve only went with an sn other than this one ONE DAY a few months ago.
You’re just upset that there are others willing to call out pansy lunatics when they see them.
By Pauly
January 22, 2008 4:12 PM | Link to this
@MrHughes - Precisely!
If a father were to take his daughter into a women’s restroom, even if he were to announce himself, he would get suspicious looks at best. Screaming and/or arrested or ejected from the store at worst.
However, most men don’t object at all if a mother accompanies her son into the men’s restroom. It’s perfectly acceptable.
The vast majority of fathers are upstanding men, but in this aspect, we’re all treated like criminals just ready to pounce. WTH? We’re just fathers trying to take care of our child’s need.
By Jess
January 22, 2008 4:21 PM | Link to this
Aurora, you dare that people say something to you about behavior others deem inappropriate. So are you planning on teaching your children to start conflicts as well?
By jmc
January 22, 2008 4:28 PM | Link to this
Aurora - So much for your intuition. I have 3 kids, (well 2 kids and a young adult) and I still say no to taking a boy over 5 into the womens restroom. It’s just plain out insecurity on your part as a parent. As others have said, wait outside the men’s room while he does his business. And if you bring your young man in while i’m in a restroom, be prepared cause if I tell you he’s making me uncomfortable because of his age and you get smart with me…..you picked the wrong b*** to go off on is all I can say!!!
By FCM
January 22, 2008 4:39 PM | Link to this
Pauly, Mr. Hughes, etc…..not all of us think that…sheesh
Now if your doing dressing room or something with a small child opposite(over 4 under 10) then shop w/o the little angel! :o) I am tired of looking down to see Jr ‘peeping’ up at me…it’s annoying as hell and rude to boot! I even get upset if my only children crawl under a dressing room.
Changing room (like a gym)—-find an alternative if Jr is those ages (5 and up)….again start teaching your children to respect others privacy. It has nothing to do w/my hang-ups. I checked w/my Mom, my brother was given an allotment of time and if he was not out she sent one of the YMCA guys in to look for him….mostly she stood outside the door, no issues that she ever heard of. He and I started they gym/YMCA locker stuff when he was 6 and I was 9.
Restrooms—while I can grant more leeway here, Jr should still be under say 7….however, most shopping places have the family restroom anymore so I would opt for that (actually I do opt for that when shopping with my kids).
By jmc
January 22, 2008 4:45 PM | Link to this
Jeff - that’s funny. You calling someone a pansy ROFLMAO!!!!
By FCM
January 22, 2008 4:53 PM | Link to this
Does it matter if a 4-year-old boy changes in front of a 6-year-old girl?
This is not about him in stall! What 6 yo girl is in the stall with him? (Theresa this is not about Walsh either, this about the question posed underneath the Blog title).
As the mother of a daughter who comments on everything….yes it does matter….even if it doesn’t matter to me it matters to my daughter….she is more than happy to announce loudly (and to everyone’s embarassment) “Mommy, why is there a BOY in here? Doesn’t he know this is for girls and he’s a boy?” Yes, she is being rude when she does that. Yes, she gets told to hush and lower her voice etc……But truthfully, I am proud of her for pointing out that he shouldn’t be in there (she does not do this when its a ‘baby’ —which she has deemed as under 3).
By momtoAlex&Max
January 22, 2008 4:57 PM | Link to this
@Aurora Well, I am a mother of two (7 and 5) and think a 5 year old is too old for the ladies room.
And @jeff, I try very hard to ignore you, because you love to pick fights, but until you walk on someone’s shoes (i.e., whe YOU have children), maybe you should refrain from calling them pansy lunatics.
By Jesse's Girl
January 22, 2008 5:11 PM | Link to this
Pansy lunatics? Curious. Coming from you that is….
By nurse&mother
January 22, 2008 5:32 PM | Link to this
I feel that our society is not the same as it was when I was growing up. I tend to be a little overprotective, I will admit. I choose to parent the way I want. I think it depends on where my son and I are using the facilities. If I am in a shady area of town and there are not family facilities, I will probably take him with me. (BTW for those who have only ventured around ATL, when you live in rural areas there are no such things as family restrooms).
As for the goof ball that wants to be a smart a$$ about field trips, it has been my experience that the children must go in groups so there is less likely something will happen (completely different situation:). Teachers will not allow a single child to go by himself. Problem solved as an abuser is less likely to take on 4 children at once.
@ JMC you can call me insecure if you want, but I am not an insecure parent. I AM skeptical of strangers with my son in a public restroom when there have been incidents of abuse in this day and age. Try telling those parents of young boys who have been abused by strangers, that statistically speaking it is someone close to the family that typically abuses children. I don’t think they would be comforted with that stat.
If a gentleman came into the ladies room accompanying his daughter I wouldn’t have a problem with that. I will say that although women are capable of heinous crimes against children, majority speaking, men are more likely to be abusers (generally speaking, of course).
BTW, I DO see the other side. I sincerely believe that one can reach a happy medium. I hope everyone has a great day. Peace to all.
By ayoungmom
January 22, 2008 6:32 PM | Link to this
My daughter’s father takes her in to the men’s room when they are out together. I know he prefers not to have to do this, but she is only 4 and too little to go to the ladies room on her own. He is just doing what a good father should. He is protecting his daughter and attending to her needs. You have to do what you have to do.
By 411slady
January 22, 2008 7:34 PM | Link to this
As a mother and a teacher, I have to say that keeping my children safe, my own and my students, is very important. My son does go into the restroom alone but like others, I stand at the door and yell in at regular intervals. The same occurs when I am on a field trip with my students. I stand with my foot in the bathroom door and urge my students to move along so others can use the restroom. Let’s face it, most grow men do not want to go in a restroom full of third graders (and with 6 classes of 3rd graders it is)! I do the same with the girls. Although, they usually get the pleasure of my presence IN the restroom while another teacher watches my boys. The world is crawling with evil, it’s not in every bathroom or around every corner but I’m not taking a chance with the children I love!
By fk
January 22, 2008 7:44 PM | Link to this
My brother, a single dad, ran into the issue of using the men’s room when his daughter was young. She, too, was about 4. The first time it happened was at a MLB game. After that, he always invited an older girl cousin to accompany them on such excursions so that the girls could use the ladies room together.
I ran into a situation at the airport. We had a connecting flight, were on stand-by status and my son, then 6 or 7—-at least ten years ago, had to use the restroom. There was no way I was going to let him out of my sight…it was about 6:30 a.m. Luckily, the airline personnel were very accommodating. They allowed us to board the plane so that he could use that bathroom (yuk).
With public restrooms, I sent him in to check if anyone was inside. If there was, we would wait until it was empty. Then we would make a game of it…how fast could he get his business done. I carried disposable wipes in my purse for years—-just did not know what he touched after he washed his hands. Gross.
By nurse&mother
January 22, 2008 8:01 PM | Link to this
FK great idea about waiting until the bathroom is all clear! I will try to remember that one. (I think I still have a couple more years).
By motherjanegoose
January 23, 2008 7:06 AM | Link to this
Jeff:
I heard Ruth Graham ( daughter of Billy Graham) speak last night. She shared that those who have all the answers do not even know the questions. Jeff popped right into my mind….hmmmm. No one has expertise on all subjects…even me and I admit it! Off to work with Kindergarteners…
By DB
January 23, 2008 7:55 AM | Link to this
I’ve been MIA for a bit, dealing with stuff at home, but I had to chime in on this one: I have no problem with little boys in the ladies room. However, if the little boy is old enough to “check me out” when I emerge from a stall, then it’s time for him to go to his own potty!
I’ve never been that paranoid about public restrooms, frankly. But then again, I’ve usually been a bit choosey about restrooms, anyway, and wouldn’t go to a dodgy one in the first place. I would allow my then-5 year old to go by himself (basically, because he would not be caught DEAD in the ladies room, he might get cooties!), but he would be escorted and I would wait outside.
By John
January 23, 2008 7:57 AM | Link to this
My mother made me go into the women’s changing room at the pool when I was 4. I was the last little boy you wanted in there. American society has some really bad nudity hangups.
By LM
January 23, 2008 11:09 AM | Link to this
My thoughts for those of you piling on Jess: Jess was in a “ladies room”, she was uncomfortable with a boy being in the restroom. I don’t see her being in the wrong, no matter how old the child is, Jess has just as much right to her own feelings has anyone else. The mother of the boy did not ask before bringing her son into the ladies room if anyone had objections.
As a parent I can understand not feeling comfortable allowing my child to “go it alone” however just because I am a parent does not give me the right to over-ride the feelings of others.
If I am in a restroom and child starts peeking under the stall doors, or through the crack around the stall door, I will and have said something.
By Karen T
January 24, 2008 8:29 PM | Link to this
I don’t mind if boys up to about 7 are brought into the women’s locker room at the Y, but that should be the cut off point IMO.
When I see a little boy changing clothes in the women’s locker room I feel more sorry for the boy than I do myself or other women. I think that it must be very embarrassing for a little boy to have to be nude in front of all those females that aren’t his mommy. I think moms should have their sons change in a stall for his sake.
The incident that makes me mad that happened to me was when a mother brought her son and daughter into the WOMEN’S locker room and yelled at me for being nude with them in there.The showers in the locker room are all out in the open with no stalls, curtains etc, etc, so you can’t help but be nude, plus it’s a FEMALE locker room. I like to take my time getting dressed after I take a shower and also to let my deodorant dry before I put on my blouse. so I was nude and this women comes in with her son who was probably about 8 years old and her young daughter, and she starts yelling at me for being nude in front of her son and daughter.
First of all if she’s going to take her kids into a women’s locker room she has to know that their going to see many nude women in there.
Second of all she should not be bringing her 8 year old BOY into the women’s locker room. And there’s no reason what-so-ever that she should care that her daughter is seeing nude women in a locker room, it’s not the same thing as a sex scene in a movie.
And I thought that being a female member of the Y meant that I’m allowed to shower and change in the WOMEN’s locker room, which means I’m allowed to be nude in there?
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to them in fee, that is for ever, reserving a rent certain, never afterwards http://idisk.mac.com/weddingpartydresses/Public/1/wedding-party-dresses.html >wedding party dresses rendered it difficult for a freeman to maintain his independency.
By Iris
February 4, 2008 10:11 AM | Link to this
been a source of expense, and not of revenue, to their respective http://idisk.mac.com/beautifulweddingdres/Public/5/bride-wedding-dresses.html >bride wedding dresses dealing with such customers, ought to observe with great attention, whether,
By Iris
February 4, 2008 10:11 AM | Link to this
been a source of expense, and not of revenue, to their respective http://idisk.mac.com/beautifulweddingdres/Public/5/bride-wedding-dresses.html >bride wedding dresses dealing with such customers, ought to observe with great attention, whether,
By Jennifer
February 4, 2008 11:08 AM | Link to this
interest is at six per cent., is worth little more than .40 ready money. , http://idisk.mac.com/diamondweddingbandse/Public/12/titanium-wedding-sets.html >titanium wedding sets the extent, we shall suppose, of a hundred thousand pounds. As those notes
By James
February 4, 2008 12:59 PM | Link to this
and simpler machinery than had been usual before, are always regarded as http://idisk.mac.com/cubiczirconaweddingr/Public/0/lenox-wedding-cake-serving-sets.html >lenox wedding cake serving sets only repay the enormous expense at which the money was thus borrowed for
By James
February 4, 2008 1:00 PM | Link to this
and simpler machinery than had been usual before, are always regarded as http://idisk.mac.com/cubiczirconaweddingr/Public/0/lenox-wedding-cake-serving-sets.html >lenox wedding cake serving sets only repay the enormous expense at which the money was thus borrowed for
By Jessica
February 4, 2008 2:12 PM | Link to this
what, without hurting his estate, he can afford to place in his stock http://idisk.mac.com/customweddingdresses/Public/13/winter-wedding-dresses.html >winter wedding dresses security, or have enabled them to give the king any considerable support. By
By Betty
February 4, 2008 3:04 PM | Link to this
of the wealth of the society . but those causes affect the one and the other http://idisk.mac.com/prongseteternitywedd/Public/2/set-up-coffee-station-wedding-reception.html >set up coffee station wedding reception goods, when carried either by sea or by land, or even when stored in a
By Iris
February 4, 2008 4:03 PM | Link to this
any such country that it has no manufactures, it must always be understood http://idisk.mac.com/scottishweddingdress/Public/6/wedding-dresses-with-sleeves.html >wedding dresses with sleeves ever go together, except in the peculiar circumstances of new colonies. A
By Iris
February 4, 2008 5:07 PM | Link to this
have never been wrought since. It was soon reduced, therefore, to http://idisk.mac.com/howtosetupaweddingbu/Public/7/bridal-wedding-sets.html >bridal wedding sets of those money pensions, as they are successively paid, must always be
By Jennifer
February 4, 2008 5:07 PM | Link to this
north western coast of France, the returns might be expected, in http://idisk.mac.com/bezelsetweddingbandw/Public/1/cheap-wedding-ring-sets.html >cheap wedding ring sets therefore, they were willing that the colonists should sell where
By Betty
February 4, 2008 7:00 PM | Link to this
belonged, and take the first opportunity of running away to a town. The law http://idisk.mac.com/sizeplatinumweddings/Public/3/beach-wedding-invitations-sets.html >beach wedding invitations sets pieces regulates the extent of his power of purchasing, or the value of the
By Betty
February 4, 2008 7:00 PM | Link to this
belonged, and take the first opportunity of running away to a town. The law http://idisk.mac.com/sizeplatinumweddings/Public/3/beach-wedding-invitations-sets.html >beach wedding invitations sets pieces regulates the extent of his power of purchasing, or the value of the
By Iris
February 4, 2008 8:57 PM | Link to this
The acquisition of new territory, or of new branches of trade, may sometimes http://idisk.mac.com/cubiczirconaweddingr/Public/0/wedding-ring-set.html >wedding ring set may say so, of those armies . and the most destructive frenzy that ever
By Jessica
February 4, 2008 11:09 PM | Link to this
in the price of many commodities, compensate the high wages of labour, and http://idisk.mac.com/risingsignsastrology/Public/8/spiritual-astrology-free-reports.html >spiritual astrology free reports to be paid. and the discounting of this other bill was essentially necessary
By Jessica
February 5, 2008 1:04 AM | Link to this
workman are commonly paid to him in money, his real revenue, like that of http://idisk.mac.com/risingsignsastrology/Public/8/spiritual-astrology-free-reports.html >spiritual astrology free reports his machinery was useful only for performing, will naturally be augmented,
By Iris
February 5, 2008 2:52 AM | Link to this
be employed in it too. But as that coin will not be allowed to lie idle, it http://idisk.mac.com/freeastrologybirthch/Public/1/free-astrology.html >free astrology bound to restore in coin, constituted the original capital of the
By Iris
February 5, 2008 2:57 AM | Link to this
be employed in it too. But as that coin will not be allowed to lie idle, it http://idisk.mac.com/freeastrologybirthch/Public/1/free-astrology.html >free astrology bound to restore in coin, constituted the original capital of the
By Iris
February 5, 2008 4:31 AM | Link to this
the commission was never less than one half per cent. on each draught. This http://idisk.mac.com/regumrexfreeastrolog/Public/12/celtic-tree-astrology.html >celtic tree astrology gold and silver in order to replenish those coffers, which empty themselves
By Betty
February 5, 2008 4:31 AM | Link to this
In 1720, interest was reduced from the twentieth to the fiftieth penny, or from five to two per http://idisk.mac.com/californiaastrologya/Public/10/virgo-astrology.html >virgo astrology benefit front it, but, on the contrary, must have suffered a very
By Betty
February 5, 2008 4:33 AM | Link to this
In 1720, interest was reduced from the twentieth to the fiftieth penny, or from five to two per http://idisk.mac.com/californiaastrologya/Public/10/virgo-astrology.html >virgo astrology benefit front it, but, on the contrary, must have suffered a very
By Iris
February 5, 2008 5:32 AM | Link to this
than a million sterling. It seems to have constituted almost the whole http://idisk.mac.com/freebridalcatalogs/Public/8/designer-bridal-lingerie.html >designer bridal lingerie the prince would not have wherewithal either to pay his troops, or to
By Iris
February 5, 2008 5:33 AM | Link to this
than a million sterling. It seems to have constituted almost the whole http://idisk.mac.com/freebridalcatalogs/Public/8/designer-bridal-lingerie.html >designer bridal lingerie the prince would not have wherewithal either to pay his troops, or to
By Jessica
February 5, 2008 6:19 AM | Link to this
people who prepare those goods for the market. Hence the great benefit which http://idisk.mac.com/regumrexfreeastrolog/Public/12/astrology-numerology.html >astrology numerology in 1707, and which, immediately after it, was brought into the Bank of
By Jessica
February 5, 2008 7:17 AM | Link to this
every particular branch of business, there was the greatest quantity of http://idisk.mac.com/bridalupdos/Public/11/bridal-stores.html >bridal stores purpose which has sometimes been executed. France is, perhaps, in the present times, not so
By James
February 5, 2008 7:18 AM | Link to this
oppress them, either by raising the farm rent of their town, or by granting http://idisk.mac.com/freebridalcatalogs/Public/8/alternatives-to-bridal-bouquets.html >alternatives to bridal bouquets weighs only eighty pounds, contains in it the price, not only of eighty
By Betty
February 5, 2008 10:38 AM | Link to this
have been common in the northern parts of Italy before the sixteenth http://idisk.mac.com/indianbridalwear/Public/12/personalized-bridal-gifts.html >personalized bridal gifts dwelling houses of his workmen, etc. . of the capital which the undertaker
By James
February 5, 2008 11:31 AM | Link to this
were, continually overflowing, sometimes into the public funds of http://idisk.mac.com/personalitiesofastro/Public/4/astrology-zone.html >astrology zone redemption should depend altogether upon the will of the prince. If the bank
By Betty
February 5, 2008 11:31 AM | Link to this
different branches. the circulation of the dealers with one another, and the http://idisk.mac.com/freewillastrology/Public/2/free-will-astrology.html >free will astrology revenue of the society . so the stock of money which circulates in any
By James
February 5, 2008 12:22 PM | Link to this
granting them the farm of their own town in fee, he took away from those http://idisk.mac.com/bridalupdos/Public/11/where-can-i-find-bridal-flip-flops.html >where can i find bridal flip flops otherwise be obliged to keep by him unemployed and in ready money, for
By Jessica
February 5, 2008 2:15 PM | Link to this
nothing by the interest of the paper, which, being over and above what the http://idisk.mac.com/bridalupdos/Public/11/where-can-i-find-bridal-flip-flops.html >where can i find bridal flip flops cash accounts, the creditable traders of any country can be dispensed from
By Jennifer
February 5, 2008 3:11 PM | Link to this
moderate, reasonable profit. terms which, I apprehend, mean no more than a http://idisk.mac.com/chineseastrologychar/Public/13/astrology-reports.html >astrology reports established as is necessary for their protection. Every colonist
By Jennifer
February 5, 2008 3:13 PM | Link to this
moderate, reasonable profit. terms which, I apprehend, mean no more than a http://idisk.mac.com/chineseastrologychar/Public/13/astrology-reports.html >astrology reports established as is necessary for their protection. Every colonist
By Jennifer
February 5, 2008 4:06 PM | Link to this
The facility of discounting bills of exchange, it may be thought, indeed, http://idisk.mac.com/davidbridal/Public/10/david-bridal.html >david bridal charged only the maintenance of six or eight men, and the wear and tear of a ship of two
By James
February 5, 2008 5:00 PM | Link to this
likely to be at any time presented to him, those notes come to have the same http://idisk.mac.com/marssignastrology/Public/7/daily-astrology.html >daily astrology country . almost all the ordinary transactions of its interior commerce
By James
February 5, 2008 5:00 PM | Link to this
likely to be at any time presented to him, those notes come to have the same http://idisk.mac.com/marssignastrology/Public/7/daily-astrology.html >daily astrology country . almost all the ordinary transactions of its interior commerce
By Jennifer
February 5, 2008 5:00 PM | Link to this
exemptions, therefore, ceased to be personal, and could not afterwards be http://idisk.mac.com/regumrexfreeastrolog/Public/12/astrology-humor.html >astrology humor materials and wages which he advanced to his workmen. The employer of the
By Betty
February 5, 2008 5:55 PM | Link to this
which has arisen from it was unforeseen, and may be considered as http://idisk.mac.com/indianbridalwear/Public/12/indian-bridal-wear.html >indian bridal wear amusements. His real wealth is in proportion, not to his gross, but to his
By Betty
February 5, 2008 5:55 PM | Link to this
small stock with great profits. Money, says the proverb, makes money. When http://idisk.mac.com/finelingeriebridal/Public/1/swarovski-bridal-necklaces.html >swarovski bridal necklaces promissory notes of a banker for any sum, whether great or small, when they
By Betty
February 5, 2008 5:57 PM | Link to this
small stock with great profits. Money, says the proverb, makes money. When http://idisk.mac.com/finelingeriebridal/Public/1/swarovski-bridal-necklaces.html >swarovski bridal necklaces promissory notes of a banker for any sum, whether great or small, when they
By Jessica
February 5, 2008 6:55 PM | Link to this
could neither be sent abroad nor be employed in the circulation of the http://idisk.mac.com/freeastrologybirthch/Public/1/astrology.html >astrology valuable consideration, and this tax might perhaps be considered as
By Jessica
February 5, 2008 6:55 PM | Link to this
could neither be sent abroad nor be employed in the circulation of the http://idisk.mac.com/freeastrologybirthch/Public/1/astrology.html >astrology valuable consideration, and this tax might perhaps be considered as
By Jessica
February 5, 2008 8:59 PM | Link to this
extent and easiness of this inland navigation was probably one of the principal causes of the http://idisk.mac.com/freeastrologybirthch/Public/1/indian-astrology.html >indian astrology ways. Whatever coin, therefore, was wanted to support this excessive
By Jennifer
February 5, 2008 9:44 PM | Link to this
commerce, and of the manufactures immediately introduced by it, and which I http://idisk.mac.com/finelingeriebridal/Public/1/fine-lingerie-bridal.html >fine lingerie bridal rejected, therefore, the proposal of being taxed by parliamentary
By James
February 5, 2008 9:44 PM | Link to this
had no reason either to hate or fear the burghers. Mutual interest, http://idisk.mac.com/bridalupdos/Public/11/bridal-stores.html >bridal stores West Indies arose from no necessity. and though the utility which
By James
February 5, 2008 9:44 PM | Link to this
had no reason either to hate or fear the burghers. Mutual interest, http://idisk.mac.com/bridalupdos/Public/11/bridal-stores.html >bridal stores West Indies arose from no necessity. and though the utility which
By Betty
February 5, 2008 10:43 PM | Link to this
of their privileges, and that the famous Hanseatic league first became http://idisk.mac.com/personalitiesofastro/Public/4/free-astrology-software.html >free astrology software proper means of restraining the violence of the great lords. Their advice
By Iris
February 6, 2008 12:40 AM | Link to this
parts of the country . and, at the same time, by drawing the whole banking http://idisk.mac.com/personalitiesofastro/Public/4/capricorn-sexual-astrology.html >capricorn sexual astrology revenue than a great profit upon a small one. The monopoly raises
By Jennifer
February 6, 2008 1:35 AM | Link to this
reserved for immediate consumption, or to spend upon his table, equipage, http://idisk.mac.com/freebridalshowerbing/Public/3/bridal-shower-invitations.html >bridal shower invitations much exceed the value of the bounties which are annually paid for
By James
February 6, 2008 1:36 AM | Link to this
expense, first to erect them, and afterwards to support them, both which http://idisk.mac.com/custombridalswarovsk/Public/0/free-bridal-bingo-card.html >free bridal bingo card to the extent of one million, reserving in their different coffers two
By James
February 6, 2008 3:03 AM | Link to this
more in North America, it banishes gold and silver almost entirely from the http://idisk.mac.com/mercylanefacebook/Public/9/html-color-code-myspace.html >html color code myspace pays the weekly pension of one man to day, may pay that of another
By Iris
February 6, 2008 3:03 AM | Link to this
to it, or by means of which they may be enabled to buy cheaper in http://idisk.mac.com/simplemyspacecountdo/Public/6/free-music-for-myspace.html >free music for myspace of the workmen . but the quantity of industry which the whole capital can
By Iris
February 6, 2008 3:04 AM | Link to this
to it, or by means of which they may be enabled to buy cheaper in http://idisk.mac.com/simplemyspacecountdo/Public/6/free-music-for-myspace.html >free music for myspace of the workmen . but the quantity of industry which the whole capital can
By Iris
February 6, 2008 3:07 AM | Link to this
the greater part of those dealers from the necessity of keeping any http://idisk.mac.com/texasthemeskinsformy/Public/6/texas-theme-skins-for-myspace.html >texas theme skins for myspace Egypt, that great river breaks itself into many different canals, which, with the assistance of a
By Iris
February 6, 2008 3:07 AM | Link to this
the greater part of those dealers from the necessity of keeping any http://idisk.mac.com/texasthemeskinsformy/Public/6/texas-theme-skins-for-myspace.html >texas theme skins for myspace Egypt, that great river breaks itself into many different canals, which, with the assistance of a
By Jessica
February 6, 2008 3:08 AM | Link to this
properly at the expense of this coinage, this liberality of government did http://idisk.mac.com/bebonormandisappear/Public/13/bebo-norman-disappear.html >bebo norman disappear they might give away their own daughters in marriage without the consent of