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DEL.ICIO.USShould schools fingerprint kids?
Some elementary and high schools are using fingerprints to check in students and pay for lunches, but does is it violate their privacy? Some parents are crying foul.
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Some schools around the country are using biometric technology, such as fingerprints, to check students in and speed lunch lines along. But some parents aren’t sure if it’s good thinking or downright Orwellian. (Here’s the full story.)
“Time” magazine reported last week: “Elementary and high school students in Pennsylvania, New Jersey and West Virginia use finger scans to pay for lunch — and even to check into class. But in many other states, the parental outcry about privacy has stopped the technology in its tracks. Michigan and Iowa have passed laws essentially barring schools from taking electronic fingerprints of children. Last month, Illinois enacted a law requiring schools to get parental consent before capturing an image of a child’s finger.”
“Generally, student information collected by schools is protected by the federal government’s privacy laws. So schools can’t simply give away information gleaned from a student’s fingerprint. Still, many parents and privacy law experts remain anxious about records accessible to companies managing a school’s computer system — and whether that information can move if that company is ever sold.”
“Parents are often caught off-guard by the arrival of the new technology in their children’s school. Last fall, Jim Karlsberger’s eight-year-old son returned from school with a newsletter briefly reporting that lunchroom finger scanning was set to begin. ‘I thought it was Orwellian,’ says Karlsberger, a 43-year-old hotel manager in Williams, Ariz. ‘I find it hard to believe that someone, someday, won’t find a way to compromise the information on my child’s fingerprint.’ He rallied dozens of parents and the American Civil Liberties union to derail the school’s plan.”
I know we used in college way back in the early 1990s some type of hand-reading technology in the dining halls. We may have used it when we registered for class too, but I definitely remember slapping my hand down to get food.
My daughter’s school uses ID cards that are swiped in the lunch line. The lunch money is kept in an online account and accessed with an ID card that is handed out to each child right before lunch. I would think that system would make the lines move fast and eliminate the free-or reduced-lunch stigma - which the fingerprinting is supposed to do.
What does your school use? Would you have a problem if they wanted to take your child’s fingerprint? Would you trust that it wouldn’t be released to outside sources - intentionally or not?
Permalink | Comments (32) | Post your comment | Categories: Ethics of rearing kids today
Comments
By JJ
October 2, 2007 8:16 AM | Link to this
Good morning Theresa. Totally off topic, but I see someone blasted you in the Vent today. I wonder if it wasn’t the person who was posting yesterday as Animals - not Human?????
By DG
October 2, 2007 8:17 AM | Link to this
My children attend school in Cherokee County. A five digit id number is assigned to each child upon enrollment. This ID number follows them through each grade/school. The children enter their ID numbers into keypads. It is used for lunches, library books, etc. I would not want my children finger printed for school as I don’t see any added value. No, I would not trust that it would/could never be released to outside sources.
By geesh
October 2, 2007 8:40 AM | Link to this
get a grip. “Orwellian”. put down the conspiracy theory and slowly step away. no problem with id cards that have alot more info on them to be accidentally released. its a fingerprint. you leave one behind whenever you touch anything. god forbid we have a way to positively id someone. they wouldnt have to remember an card to swipe, an id number. just rt index finger and eat or get that library book. is fighting this really worth all of your taxpayer dollars?
By WTF?
October 2, 2007 8:43 AM | Link to this
Fingerprinting is for criminals. Now I do realize some kids in the public school system are criminals & perhaps their fingerprints should be put on file at school. But if a kid hasn’t done anything wrong then I say no do not subject them to that.
By Jennifer
October 2, 2007 8:46 AM | Link to this
No, I don’t want my kid fingerprinted at school.
By Ebaby
October 2, 2007 8:49 AM | Link to this
I remember being fingerprinted in school as a child for some sort of safety/kidnap prevention campaign. I think thats great- I think locating my abducted child is worth the invasion of privacy. Assuming that you are a law abiding citizen, I dont see the downside to allowing the government to have your fingerprints.
I think cards or keypads are probably less expensive technology for schools though- so why spend funds on high-tech gadgets when there are less expensive alternatives?
By JustMe
October 2, 2007 8:49 AM | Link to this
Yes.
Fingerprints are unique. Using them will prevent thiefs. Any type of ID number can be stolen and used without permission. Any type of ID card can be lost or stolen and used without permission.
Why should any child be ‘afraid’ of their fingerprints? Are they already criminals? And, who cares of those fingerprints are ‘released?’ Released to whom? What would a person do with a fingerprint? It’s not like they can duplicate it and put it on their own finger/thumb. And, why should anyone be afraid to share their fingerprints with any law agency UNLESS THEY ARE CRIMINALS?
This may also be a way to identify ILLEGAL aliens. Note that I did not say to prosecute illegal aliens. But, we do need to have somewhat of a reasonable count for a variety of reasons.
Even corporations are moving towards biometrics to ID their workers for security reasons. Why not schools?
Using fingerprints in schools can help with school security (door doesn’t open unless you put your fingerprint on a pad), as well as school lunches, and a variety of other things.
It’s just a good idea whose time has come.
By Jeff
October 2, 2007 8:53 AM | Link to this
JJ:
Just to clear the air: I have never even SUBMITTED a Vent, much less been published. That vent was honestly from someone else, and I honestly have no clue who said person is.
By Joyce
October 2, 2007 9:16 AM | Link to this
Do “ILLEGAL aliens” have special fingerprints that legal aliens don’t have?
By JJ
October 2, 2007 9:26 AM | Link to this
Jeff So that was you yesterday huh? I never would have guessed that. I just figured it was the person who used to post as Hunter and/or Casey. I never expected that kind of posting from you!!!!! You seem so level headed……… ;)
By Jesse's Girl
October 2, 2007 9:40 AM | Link to this
I would not give consent for my child to be fingerprinted or even have their “palms read”. I have little to no faith that at some enterprising crook can be kept from stealing such information. Our kids have to memorize a student number that they type into a key pad…its simple and no one is ever the wiser as to who gets to eat for free. Why does everything end up more convoluted and murky when someone tries to make things “easier”?
By Jeff
October 2, 2007 10:02 AM | Link to this
JJ:
I’m getting married in 11 days, I’m in the middle of one massive project at work and wrapping up another. Even us level headed guys can get off keel with that kind of stress!
Also, here’s how I THINK Vicky picked up on it yesterday: Look at the one post where I used my real ID. I said something to the effect of not going into the “Animals - Not Human” argument… and then assumed the role of ANH.
On today’s topic:
It comes down to privacy. I don’t want ANYONE to be able to track me ANYWHERE. And I’m about to get to that point, in some regards, after the wedding.
School fingerprinting uses parental fears to enable the government to get everyone’s fingerprints. Once the government has them (and they have mine, unfortunately), the can track you for the rest of your life, every time you touch something.
Let’s say you were at your girlfriend’s house one night. You leave around 3a, but you live alone. No alibi. Someone comes in at 3:30a and rapes her and kills her, but he’s smart - he used a condom and gloves. No trace. But you were with her earlier. Your fingerprints are fresh all over her house, and all over her. Your hairs are in the bed, and certain other things are in other places. (She’s your gf, you didn’t use a condom.)
YOU get nailed for the rape/ murder. You get convicted and sentenced to die. For a crime you didn’t commit.
All because the government got your fingerprints when you were a kid because your parents wanted to “keep you safe”.
Personally, I AINT gonna let my kid get set up for that kind of scenario.
By carla
October 2, 2007 10:19 AM | Link to this
I WOULD HAVE A TREMENDOUS PROBLEM WITH MY BABY BEING FINGERPRINTED. I AGREE WITH THE COMMENT THE PREVIOUS PARENT HAS SAID. WHOSE TO SAY THAT MY CHILD’S IDENTITY WILL NOT BE COMPROMISED OR PROTECTED? I DON’T TRUST THE SYSTEM NOR WILL I ALLOW IT!
By JJ
October 2, 2007 10:40 AM | Link to this
Jeff Good luck with your nupitals……..how very exciting. Is this your first marriage?
Kids will get fingerprinted when they get their learner’s permits.
Gwinnett County has the student ID number also. My daughter has had the same number all through out her school “career”.
Don’t social security numbers track us too?
By One
October 2, 2007 10:42 AM | Link to this
Heck NO!!! I would not allow my child to be finger printed. And what in the world does being a criminal have to do with not allowing the already crooked government access to your childs identity (via fingerprint)?! I certainly don’t trust them, and wholeheartedly believe that eventually that info would be compromised in some way. Then next thing you know, little Susie is being arrested for a crime she didn’t commit, and you’re spending thousands trying to cler her good name. I THINK NOT!!!!! For those of you who are that trusting in the government that we have seen lie, steal, and plant evidence on people, go ahead and let them have all of your (and your families) info. But not in my household, where ever I can keep them out, I WILL!!!
Good point Jeff!
By Jeff
October 2, 2007 10:55 AM | Link to this
JJ:
Yeppers, first marraige for both of us. (Hopefully last!)
As far as student ID numbers:
While they may be similar to SSN’s (most places I know use the last four of the SSN), they are not. Therefore it provides an additional layer of privacy - just because someone has your school ID doesn’t mean they can get your ACTUAL ID.
SSNs in general: You’d be surprised how you can manage off that particular grid. It is easier than you think. Case in point: Illegals do it all the time.
Fingerprint for drivers’ liscence: I think there may be a way to do an exemption from that. Unsure, but I’ve heard rumors. (And contrary to popular belief, there ARE ways of getting a one-time-use fingerprint that is not your own, if you so desire.) At any rate, at that point the teen is (barely) old enough that I would allow them to make the decision on their own. I may, however, wait until they are 18 to get the liscence, just to make sure they are.
By One
October 2, 2007 10:57 AM | Link to this
Look at the frequency in which Social Security #’s are compromised, for various reasons. Look at the level of identity theft these days. I am not handing over any more info than I have to, and only when I absolutely have to………for me or my child!
My daughter has an id # that has followed her each year, that works fine for us.
By KM
October 2, 2007 10:59 AM | Link to this
I may be mistaken but I dont remember giving a fingerprint to get my license. I do however know that if you cash a check at a bank other than yours you must give your fingerprint. I would not allow my children to be fingerprinted for school like that. ID cards work perfectly fine. I say extend lunch since time is the problem.
By huh?
October 2, 2007 11:07 AM | Link to this
So, how exactly is this more harmful than a school having all sorts of electronic data on file on your kids? That sort of data can be used by thieves in a much more harmful way than a fingerprint. What are people going to do- somehow replicate fingerprints and start leaving them all over the place? An enterprising crook could already do tha tmy lifting prints off stuff in the trash, prints left in public places, etc. ANd that’s highly unlikely that would happen anyway.
As for the rape and murder example- um, yeah, your fingerprints wouldn’t be what would potentially convict you, it would be the semen and hairs and other physical “evidence.” Duh. The fingerprints are such a small part of that equation as to be irrelevant.
By Jeff
October 2, 2007 11:20 AM | Link to this
huh:
Ah, but your fingerprints are what gives the police probable cause to get a warrant to compell hair and semen samples in the first place. If they don’t have your fingerprints on file, (and assuming they don’t already have your hair and/ or semen on file from other offenses) they have no case against you. Even if everyone knows you are the boyfriend, they really can’t do much other than question you without your fingerprints tieing you to the scene of the crime.
By DG
October 2, 2007 11:23 AM | Link to this
In response to huh? The fingerprints in Jeff’s scenario are what would lead the police to you. They would need to have your DNA on file to be able to locate you from your semen and hair samples alone. Hardly irrelevant.
By Tray
October 2, 2007 11:24 AM | Link to this
Well, looking at all the arguments, there is god and bad on both sides. I have a son that’s 3 1/2, and i wouldn’t mind him getting fingerprinted at all. Why? BECAUSE IT’S GOING TO HAPPEN ANYWAYS!! Why wait until he’s 16 and getting his license? Come to think of it, I enrolled him in a child protection prgram and he’s already been fingerprinted. To all those out there who think the government is out to get you…if you’re not doing anything wrong, then what are you worried about?
On top of this, kids lose things all the time. An ID card can be duplicated veri easily, but I’m not too sure about a fingerprint. While i will concur that it is possible, I will also say that it’s too advanced for the average criminal to duplicate a print as opposed to an ID (hell, i made fake ID’s for my friends out of bootcamp so they could drink, took me $5 in supplies and worked wonderfully).
I have no objection to this, i mean, i doubt someone is going to copy my son’s print and try to frame a child for murder.
And JEFF, it murder/rape cases don’t work like that. Whether the cops had your print at 5 years old or not, in the scenario you show up top, it wouldn’t be your print that leads police to you, it would be all the evidence that shows you’re dating. And on top of that, if your prints are all over the house everywhere, it can show in your favor by showing she trusted you and you were allowed everywhere in her house, not just areas where theives would go. If someone has a better example, please present it, but until then-realize that you will always be trakced-SSN, DL#, PRINTS. I’m glad they are using one tracking device that’s harder than the others to fake!
By Clayton
October 2, 2007 11:32 AM | Link to this
The COPS took our fingerprints at school when I was a kid under the guise of “finding lost kids”, and when I got older and figured out this went into an FBI/Police database I COULD ABOUT SCREAM. This was such a HUGE invasion of privace, last thing I need to worry about is my fingerprints being found on some item (letter, cup, etc..) in the wrong place at the wrong time.
By momtoAlex&Max
October 2, 2007 12:04 PM | Link to this
I guess I don’t really see the problem here, but then again, I am from Argentina. Over there, there’s national ID that has your fingerprint on it that you HAVE to get when you turn 8. Then renew at 12, 18 and 21 (final).
I don’t see what the big deal is. If I have not done anything wrong, I am don’t see what the govt is gonna “get” me for anyways.
As far s Jeff’s example goes, once they know you are the boyfriend and that you have access to the house (and they will) they will most likely ask you for fingerprints for “exclusion” purposes. And yes you can refuse, but you can bet that will make you look even worse in the eyes of the cops.
Also, the hand print thing has been done for years. UGA has been doing it for the dining halls since at least the early 90s.
By One
October 2, 2007 12:12 PM | Link to this
if you’re not doing anything wrong, then what are you worried about? Riiiight, and we all know that no one has EVER been framed or falsely accused/tried/imprisoned for a crime they didn’t commit! Yeah, right!!! Whether I’m doing right or wrong, I don’t trust the government and never will!!!!
By MrLiberty
October 2, 2007 12:29 PM | Link to this
First you allow the government to get this big and powerful. You continue to vote for republicans and democrats that don’t believe in Liberty, freedom, or anything else critical to our sutvival.
Then you turn your kids over to the governmnent to raise them. Then you complain when they take away your kid’s privacy, liberty,etc.
Good job mom and Dad.
By JustMe
October 2, 2007 12:43 PM | Link to this
LOL. Anyone that really things that the government does already have a tracking method on honest, law-abiding citizens is fooling themselves. Ever go to a store to buy something and the cashier asks for your phone number? What do you think they use that for?!?!
My mother went to a time-share meeting. All they asked her for was her phone number (not her name, not her SSN, not anything else). Using only her phone number, they found her home address, SSN, full name (including madien name), place of employment, annual salary, and also her credit score! They later mailed her something that said she qualified to purchase so much of their time-share, etc.
If a time-share company can do that, you think that the government cannot?
If you think that you are protecting your ‘baby’ by not allowing schools to finger print them, you are fooling yourself. All you are doing is making the security of that school more difficult!
The only individuals “lost” to the system are the illegal ones. And, these are the ones that likely need tracking the most! They are the ones without a valid drivers license, no birth certificate, no credit cards, etc.
Again, many companys are going to biometrics for security reasons. If you are freaked out by finger prints, then the eye retina can be used.
And to Joyce - you are a real piece of work and/or real stupid. A fingerprint is a unique identifier. If linked to a database that has citizenship information then it can be used to identify ILLEGAL aliens. Again, I am all for this - not to prosecute illegal aliens, but rather to count them. A count is needed for a variety of reasons.
By Dave the First
October 2, 2007 12:53 PM | Link to this
I have no problem fingerprinting and retina scanning students.
We all have to be fingerprinted to get a driver’s license. If all minors in the US get on a database before they turn 18 it would end identity theft.
By Joyce
October 2, 2007 1:00 PM | Link to this
Just Me- And to which database do you cross-reference the fingerprints of a child? None of my son’s immigration documents from either country have his fingerprints.
By Becky
October 2, 2007 1:32 PM | Link to this
I don’t agree with this either..If you want your children fringer printed, then go buy the kit, do it yourself & keep it at home.. Jeff, congrats on the up coming wedding..If T is as smart & level headed as you appear to be, I’m sure that it will the only wedding for both of you..
By Jeff
October 2, 2007 3:35 PM | Link to this
Turns out there is a nonfiction that applies to today’s topic:
Stealing Your Life: The Ultimate Identity Theft Prevention Plan by Frank W. Abagnale
By fk
October 2, 2007 5:46 PM | Link to this
Half of the kids in high school have had their (thumb only?) prints taken for their drivers’ licenses. I don’t really think it makes a difference if it gets done at 16 or at 6. When I landed my dream job, BC, (before child) I had to be fingerprinted. The first thing my dad, a retired policeman, laughingly said was: don’t commit any crimes and be careful what you touch.