Get on the Bus

By School Supporter

December 31, 2007 12:36 AM | Link to this

Barb writes, “very few people who listen to the teachers because no one likes the answers. … to prove the point perhaps 50% of Oakwood students should be replace[d] by … DPS students” Apparently, Marc Dann’s OEA-approved litigation strategy hinges on the Ohio ignoring the teachers (because they don’t like the answers). To fairly represent the affect of Marc Dann’s OEA-approved litigation tactics, we would need to insist that the Oakwood teachers contract include the stipulation that they all be fired and the school district closed if the DPS students transplanted to Oakwood failed to flourish. Personally, I would hope the teachers unions chose more honorable means to ensure “great public schools for every child.” They might also refrain from attempts to intimidate legislators that begin with the words, “On behalf of _ teachers …” Teachers deserve a better union.

By Concerned Mom of 3

December 30, 2007 4:01 PM | Link to this

Null- it seems obvious to me that you must not live in Oakwood. Some of the good people of Oakwood showed their true colors when the HUD/Section 8 people moved into their part of town… Nevertheless, I totally agree that the teachers in Dayton face very different issues than the teachers in Oakwood. For the most part, the Dayton teachers are very talented in their field. They just happen to work with students whose parents don’t value education. It makes all the difference in the world. (Don’t understand why we need a multi-million dollar study to figure that out.) There are some teachers in Dayton that should probably be let go- but the union makes it difficult to weed out the bad ones. In eight years of sending my children to Dayton Public Schools, I have only seen about three teachers that shouldn’t be teachers. The others have done amazing things in order to impact at-risk children in positive ways. Keep plugging away Dayton teachers- you never know what impact you are having on a child. All teachers for that matter.

By Barb

December 30, 2007 12:18 AM | Link to this

Maybe because the parents in Oakwood are involved in their child’s education and not looking for a babysitting service. Perhaps they are not willing to experiment with their child’s education? Is it remotely possible that their education and economic level make them more involved parents. I suggest another study that could perhaps prove that theory. The state of Ohio could spend money on a study like that because of course common sense is not data.

By null

December 28, 2007 10:06 PM | Link to this

Barb, love your idea! I have recommended a similar plan several times and there is never a response. Wonder why?

By Barb

December 28, 2007 6:19 PM | Link to this

I think you will find there are very few people who listen to the teachers because no one likes the answers. If there is a study it must be more politically correct. I have heard before the state expects schools such as DPS to fail because of the poverty rate but that is not something they talk about. They push harder and harder and act like they do not see the problem. If we really want to prove the point perhaps 50% of Oakwood students should be replace by a lottery of 50% of DPS students and the Oakwood students would replace DPS students in the DPS system. Wouldn’t that be an interesting experiment in education? I wonder how many would predict all the DPS students who went to Oakwood would progress at the same rate as children from 2 parent homes, homes where education is considered important. Home where the parents themselves are educated. Our students who come from those homes also show progress we just don’t have enough of them.

By School Supporter

December 27, 2007 9:59 PM | Link to this

Barb writes, “I sure hope we paid some group a lot of money to make such an major find. I guess the first million time teachers said the same thing it was not proof enough.” Does the OEA not listen to its members? By the logic of the complaint filed by Attorney General Marc Dann (and supported by the OEA) students from DeSoto Bass should require no more money to educate than students from any other Dayton neighborhood.

By MC

December 23, 2007 10:18 PM | Link to this

Amen, Lou!

By Rick

December 23, 2007 10:48 AM | Link to this

One could conclude opposites from this study. One way to look at it is to conclude it doesn’t matter how much money we put into the educational system because its the homelife that makes the difference. Therefore, we should not put much money into education. Another conclusion is that we need to pour resources into pre-Kindergarten and kindergarten. Should we force kids to go to pre-kindergarten when their parents are doing the right things to prepare them? This study raises interesting issues.

By lou

December 20, 2007 8:29 AM | Link to this

When they started the kindergarten test started I heard a lot of complaining. My feeling always was that this will show how far DPS students start behind and how much that they truely gain while in school. I bet that statistically DPS students progress farther that some, if not most, students from other districts. I think this proves how much teachers do in the short time we have them.

By Barb

December 20, 2007 7:35 AM | Link to this

I sure hope we paid some group a lot of money to make such an major find. I guess the first million time teachers said the same thing it was not proof enough. Will there be state mandated testing for parents soon. If you think the failure rate in DPS is high now imagine if their parents were tested.

By Mary

December 20, 2007 7:33 AM | Link to this

These discussions beg for details. First of all, what does it mean to “be ready for kindergarten”? Not wetting one’s pants, being able to tolerate a 45 minute bus ride around town, being able to sit in a hard desk chair for hours on end? Not all adults would be ready for kindergarten. Meanwhile, one of my children could already read, and the kindergarten teacher did not pick that up.

By Susan

December 19, 2007 11:27 PM | Link to this

Someone had to pay for a formal report to find this out. Get a clue. This is common knowledge. How many child experts have stated things like, “It starts when the child is young, preschool age.” And, now, what is going to happen? They will use our money to pay for more administrators, more bureacracy, etc., rather than what would make the most difference, like hire more teachers, hire better teachers, etc. Still, even though there is a statistical coorelation, that doesn’t mean something like this will turn around the schools. There is no magic formula, magic program, etc. Just like losing weight, the only thing that will work is hard work, sheer will power, simple knowledge that is not being used now. As a teacher, I have had final grades I have given changed, I have seen teachers give extra credit points to students for simply attending class. But, administrators call this, “Creative grading.” I have been told by a principal, “As long as the kids pass, that will be OK.” For years, we try to teach our kids not to cheat on their grades. But, then, administrators let things like this go, simply because it will make their school look good, or, what I say, “Cheat the public and cheat the system.” Like, don’t suspend the students when they deserve it. Because, if they are suspended, the students would be counted absent. And, if they are absent, that will hurt our district’s attendance rate. Then, the district may not pass the attendance rate standard on the state report card. I would like to not only hear of but see proof of teachers giving students grades that actually correspond to how much of the material they know. And, I would like to see evidence of an administrator actually implementing a program that may hurt their school’s grade in the short term but will only make it stronger in the long run. Finally, parents, dump the cell phones. Your kids don’t need them, at all. All they need is fifty cents for the pay phone or a walk to the office to request to use the phone. For, administrators may say the entire staff enforces the ceel phone policy. Trust me, not many teachers do. If all the teachers actually got a hold of all the cell phones they could each day, the principal would be taking dozens of calls each day from parents whose kids had their cell phones taken away. The principal’s office would be literally cluttered with cell phones. It would be such a mess, the principal would immediately tell the teachers to no longer take any cell phones away because they no longer want to deal with the mess, the parents, nor the students ever again.

By Concerned Mom of 3

December 19, 2007 10:22 PM | Link to this

I completely agree with Happy- If a caring, supportive environment is not available at home, then high quality pre-school is the next best thing. The key to a child’s success or failure in the school environment lies in the parenting. Until parents are trained how to be good parents, all they have to go on is their own personal experience of being parented. It is very hard to break a cycle of poor parenting. I think our society needs to implement parental training into the human services- especially for “at risk” famiies. My twins club was an incredible source of support when I went through the early years of parenting twins. All parents should have a support group like that.

By It's not always the teacher's fault

December 19, 2007 3:49 PM | Link to this

Let’s see if I’ve got this right, 40% aren’t ready for kindergarten. And at least that number each year don’t graduate high school on time. Hmmm. No question, parents need to do more to prepare their kids for school. And keep them prepared. Your job doesn’t end when they get out of elementary or middle school. You have to keep pushing them to succeed.

By null

December 19, 2007 12:21 PM | Link to this

If I could afford preschool my son would have gone-I cant even afford to work because of the crazy prices of daycare and preschool-and I even have a degree! My kids do not go to DPS and theres no programs we qualify for due to my husbands income-he is a DPS teacher so imagine how much that is :) No one around here is willing to pay what people really need to survive.Its sad the world we live in today.

By J

December 19, 2007 10:55 AM | Link to this

Are we really surprised by this topic? Is it really a revelation? I think not. Granted I could only stand teaching for four years but they were an eye-opening four years. I agree with David. YES!! there is a definite correlation between giving positive reinforcement for negative behaviors! The school in which I taught said that it would not pass a child if their parent did not come to conferences, but did we actually enforce it?? No! You can provide the most excellent daycares, preschools, kindergartens, etc but you can NEVER replace what a parent can tech a child in the first 4-5 years of life! If Dayton wants to fix their schools, they had better find a way to get the parents involved on a consistent basis. You can not totally blame a teacher, any teacher for the lagging behind of any student. Look to the parents, demand their help and maybe, just maybe, we might see some change.

By DavidSS2

December 18, 2007 9:26 PM | Link to this

I’m surprised it takes that two weeks to identify students with good training before they show up for preschool. I can identify kids with proper and adequate preparation for the class I teach within a session or two. Happy is right about needing for parents to do their job. Many and most in Dayton aren’t. Is it the result of too many decades of positive reinforcement by government programs of negative behaviors? Is it other groups fighting against responsbility being assessed? I know pregnant teenagers are told all the government services available to them at taxpayer expense by people working for agencies who are in the schools. That doesn’t slow down babies having babies.

By dps teacher

December 18, 2007 4:43 PM | Link to this

As a DPS kindergarten teacher, I can attest to the fact that quality preschool if very effective in promoting a positive kindergarten experience. I can pick out the students who have been to preschool with the first two weeks of school. Those same students remain the highest achievers throughout the year.

By Happy Homeschooler

December 18, 2007 8:26 AM | Link to this

I think that in general, a child is better off to spend all of the first 4-5 years at home, with a caring parent that can teach them what they need to know. I think that one-on-one is best for learning. BUT, if you don’t have a home environment that promotes learning, then high quality preschool programs are the next best thing. I just wish there was a way to get Dayton parents to learn how to be better parents, and many of these issues could be improved.

By Mary

December 18, 2007 5:20 AM | Link to this

As some have pointed out, pretty soon the government/taxpayers will also be expected to provide a wet nurse for every infant. I have no problem with earlier childhood education, but we should be able to lop off some investments that we currently make toward the end of K-16. We should expect some results for our investments or explanations. I thought your articles were interesting. I think yesterday’s debate in USA Today about expanding the school calendar and the opposing view on how Sweden does things also relevant to this topic.