Get on the Bus

By Bell Haven Alum

October 2, 2007 3:41 PM | Link to this

For those interested, great article in NY Times by Bob Herbert titled “Our Schools Must Do Better”. Herbert is left of center yet he advocates solutions that are supposedly “conservative”; fascinating?

By Jim

October 1, 2007 8:22 PM | Link to this

The idea that having money diverted from a needy school to fund exploratory schools like charters to see if they will work ruins the public sector of education. If the public sector were flush were funding and competent administration to work well, perhaps funding alternative experiments would be a nice study for people doing dissertations to have something to write up or for people sitting in officers to write books about. However in Ohio schools are running on shoestring budgets; few are flush with funds. Teachers have struggled under management who’s more interested in complaints about teachers from their friends and family than they are in competent, thorough education. So experiments as products of people sitting and thinking about “what if” is a pie-in-the-sky idea. Give teachers discipline in their buildings and classrooms and supportive principals who are willing go public instead of bowing to the call from downtown when Johnnie-friend-of-someone is in dire trouble in the class or building. I have to ask how a business person would assess the need to keep major spots and an athletic director position for a school running deep in the red and suffering major cuts invoking classroom overcrowding. Real world experience would tell one that classroom should come first. This would be like GM cutting model production but keeping a model that only a few people like, that’s expensive to build, and most people can’t afford. If DPS were serious the business model would say cut sports everywhere and get back to education. What does “cogent” mean?

By Jim

October 1, 2007 7:51 PM | Link to this

Maybe the schools should just hire bell haven as superintendent since she has all the answers, or so she thinks. Allegedly a grad student in business or something must impart all the knowledge in the world to solve problems. Check back when you have 30 years of experience in classroom then your intellect and choice words won’t require a dictionary or economics course to run schools as schools. Bugs you, huh?

By Belle Haven Alum

October 1, 2007 10:01 AM | Link to this

Jim your inability to pull together a logical, cogent argument is actually quite sad. Your points concerning cultural aspects that negatively affect Dayton schools are correct however, the means to address this are altogether different from how to structure school systems such that they promote quality innovation.

By Jim

September 29, 2007 10:16 AM | Link to this

The schools and their values reflect the people in their community. If you look at the behavior mannerisms and value of DPS students, exclusive of Stivers and DECA, you’ll find a reflection of the culture the overt portion of the community presents. If you go to Kettering, you’ll see different behavior, values, dress, etc., on the part of their students. Go to Oakwood and see if you see baggy shorts hanging on a level with the anus and the underwear showing and see if you see and hear mannerisms glorifying the drug culture. Check out Beavercreek schools; see what their students say and do during the time they’re on middle and high school campus. Why the difference? It’s what the principals and ultimately superintendents will tolerate. If they squelch those behaviors and values and are supported by the highups and the school board if it goes to a hearing, then the behaviors aren’t tolerated and dwindle. Can you picture DPS students that I see around Grand when I venture near the doctors offices and Grandview dressing and acting the same in Beavercreek? Paragraph. The City of Dayton has culpability on their part by having nurtured and not policed the behaviors of many (most) of their citizens. I saw they’re spending millions for wireless connectivity for the center area “to attract businesses” (who’d want to place a business in that climate) but they have the county people donating $500000 to fund Longfellow school instead of directly donating to support the busing DPS no longer wants to fund and the DPS is then able to use money for Longfellow to fund busing. If it were legal the county wouldn’t be donating to something else; they’d give it directly for busing. But Dayton city is spending money on wireless internet instead. Duh. Paragraph. Can we see what’s wrong with the schools and their management now? I don’t know how the businesses world fixes problems by spending money on wireless instead of real policing and school improvement. Schools aren’t businesses.

By Jim

September 29, 2007 10:03 AM | Link to this

Belle is slowly learning to speak clearly in a way that might allow her to be an educator. The problem is she’s stuck in the myth that schools are businesses. Businesses and pseudointellectuals have tried to apply that mantra (must be only model they know) to schools. But businesses don’t have to take whatever comes in the door as raw material. Businesses don’t have the collection of parents with poor, if any, parenting skill nurtured in their area because they vote for the right people to continue misrunning the city. Businesses don’t… on and on. I recall hearing a speech by a business crusader going around the country delivering his challenge to schools about how they should be run like businesses. It may have been the owner of Ben and Jerry’s. A few years later he was being interviewed about how he’d realized that schools aren’t businesses and you don’t just buy blueberries and mix them into the cream and sell it. I believe he wrote a book about one part of this. I’m sure some poster here knows the person about whom I’m speaking.

By Mary

September 28, 2007 7:22 AM | Link to this

Jim, I think the big questions are, is the current public education system broken, does it serve its originally intended purposes, and do we need to fix it? I just caught up on some old articles about back to school shopping which is a multibillion dollar business. Also mentioned in the article, a student in Ohio who was voted “best dressed” at her school. So, I ask are schools really about -education or business? In another article, the costs of a college education have soared 35% in the last five years, after adjustment for inflation. Their football teams are much smaller than college class sizes, and their coaches are paid much more than their professors. So what is education really doing if it is not business? But of course, real businesses do not get educational tax exemptions schools and universties get, that is unless they purchase rights for skyboxes or naming rights for costly school and university stadiums.

By Belle Haven Alum

September 27, 2007 11:13 PM | Link to this

In recent years, faculty at the Chicago GSB developed a stock market-like trading system for a very large social services organization (name escapes me) that provides bulk food to homeless kitchens across the entire country. Why is this significant? First, the system dramatically reduces the amount of food spoilage as it better matches supply w/ demand (aka “choice”). Second, it is a great example of how free market economics policy can be applied to the public domain. How is this any different from applying similar principles to traditional public school systems? It’s NOT. Jim just because you say “schools are not a business” does not make it so; hence my suggestion to you to learn more about U.S. education and economic history. Btw, if you can’t figure out that I’m a product of DPS (Belle Haven K-8; Meadowdale 10-12) w/ undergraduate degree from Stanford and MBA from Univ. of Chicago, AND an abiding desire to see DPS REALLY improve - enough to send another humble-background child like myself to Stanford - then yes you’re not educated enough to understand this space. Is that “direct” enough for you, or am I being obtuse?

By Jim

September 27, 2007 7:22 PM | Link to this

BellHaven says: “is to attract more high-level talent into the profession.” so it’s clearly their tenet that the problem is lack of education or intellectual ability on the part of current teachers that’s the problem. Perhaps they haven’t opened their dictionaries often enough to suit Bell or taken enough economics courses sense bell purports to be a part of the graduate school of the University of Chicago per the return address. But if the convoluted post equating the GI Bill for adults with the responsibility of the State of Ohio to educate all students is an example of the thinking, it’s clear why so many programs putting uncertified, untrained in educating, professionals into the classroom have failed. They don’t have the skills to reach the children and talk directly to people. I’m not sure how a Chicago experience equates to understanding the problems in Ohio and problems with the poor parenting of inner city kids, in some cases. I guess I’m just not educated enough to know reasonable and fair funding and to tell that allowing charters to run amuck with our monies hurting our schools in the process is not right. Most charters in this state have not performed well. Competition is for business; schools are not a business. Businesses get to reject raw product that doesn’t meet their standards; school take and keep everyone as their responsibility to educate. There’s a difference. Economics 101 doesn’t apply to classrooms with real kids in them. Proper funding for all schools in Ohio and not playing religious, political, and financial games with the schools is what it should be about.

By Mary

September 27, 2007 4:03 PM | Link to this

The Belle Haven Alum/D.T. discussion thread reminds me of the concept of over credentialing (including teachers) discussed in the book Ivory Tower Blues. This book discusses the education systems in the U.S. and Canada and how they are used as an economic drain on students and parents in order to be “credentialed” for jobs that should not require college degrees. It also discusses how education requirements are used to keep young people out of the job market, as opposed to places like Germany that use apprenticeships and “hard sorting” of students into various careers. I really think people are kept in the education system too long and for the wrong reasons.

By Belle Haven Alum

September 26, 2007 8:47 PM | Link to this

D.T. Agree w/ most of your most recent post. I’m also for closing underperforming charters - freedom of entry, freedom of exit - just via the existing process, not by a politically motivated witch hunt. Further, would DPS have implemented recent innovation and improvement - e.g. DECA, single gender schools - w/o the competitive spur of charter schools? No. Quick analogy - think USPS would have made improvements w/o influence of FedEx, DHL, UPS? No. And while I agree that academic performance should be top priority for parents selecting any school, the point remains that parents get to CHOOSE, whatever their motivation. See my “logic” rests on the concept that market participants maximize their utility in such a way that advances higher quality outcomes that government control “one-size fits all” could never produce. Btw, you’ll also notice that in response to my calling your evidence “anecdotal” you make reference to ODE data, impliciting bearing out my point.

By D.T.

September 26, 2007 5:21 PM | Link to this

Belle Haven, I don’t think that I’ve missed the point of your post, I just disagree with your logic. I agree that certification alone does not guarantee that a teacher will be effective or passionate about the job, but it does ensure a level of pedagogical competency. Enthusiasm & intellect cannot always substitute for pedagogy. As far as your dismissal of my “anecdotal” evidence, just look at the ODE data from 2006. Statewide, public schools that educated economically challenged students outperformed charters with the same demographic. I am not anticharter, but I believe that charters should be held accountable when they underperform. Charter school advocates sold people on charters because they claimed that schools that failed would be closed. This has not happened thus far in Ohio. No child should be forced to attend a school with subpar performance. While one would assume that parents would never let their children attend failing schools, a study shows that parents frequently choose charter schools for reasons other than academic performance. In the end, choice is only good if it is driving innovation and improvement. Many charters in Ohio and the Dayton area are failing to live up to their end of the bargain. It’s about time someone held them accountable.

By Belle Haven Alum

September 26, 2007 9:36 AM | Link to this

For those who consider my posts “convoluted” w/ “attempts to throw in lots of unrelated terms” perhaps first you should open a dictionary and second, if you’re up to the challenge, take a course on U.S. education and/or economic history.

By Jim

September 25, 2007 9:43 PM | Link to this

Is bell haven alumn trying to say in all that convoluted talk that they’re in favor of charter schools? I keep getting lost in the attempts to thrown in lots of unrelated terms. Teaching requires state certification for several reasons. Somehow through the years a few people have tried to treat schools like businesses and apply those models to schools and education. It has never worked. They aren’t businesses, despite what many of the charter school owners think. Education is interaction between that teacher and that student. That’s what the courses in education departments and the time spent in schools in various form of working with an existing teacher help the new teacher learn.

By Belle Haven Alum

September 25, 2007 4:07 PM | Link to this

D.T. You’ve completely missed the essence of my position by overly focusing on certification. Agree that certification is a federal/state requirement; but the point of my post was that it is teacher unions that generate negative hype around lack of certification w/in charter schools when some of their own members may be “certified” but possess nowhere close to the passion for teaching children, let alone subject-matter expertise. Why? Does it serve the children’s interest or the union’s? Just because the state grants someone a driver’s license does not make them a good driver. As you mentioned, folks w/ alternative backgrounds are becoming teachers and the whole point of other, often quicker routes to certification, is to attract more high-level talent into the profession. Again, what is the content of the metric and how is it applied? And as far as what you’ve “seen” - anecdotal evidence is important but it is a poor substitute for a large, longitudinal data set. I said it before in recent weeks, free market competition - CHOICE - goes a long way toward promoting better quality outcomes for end customers, regardless of the industry, including education.

By D.T.

September 25, 2007 3:09 PM | Link to this

Belle Haven Alum, I completely disagree with your statement about teacher certification. While I have seen several teachers who have come to education from alternative backgrounds (engineers & such) that have done a fantastic job as teachers, I have also seen and interviewed many potential teachers who have simply decided that education would be an easier career (summers off, long breaks, etc.). Certification is a state/federal requirement, not a union requirement. It is also something that parents look for to ensure their teacher is qualified to deliver instruction. While I have seen several examples of traditionally certified teachers demonstrating a lack of content knowledge, I have seen more pedagogically unsound teachers assume they can deliver content and manage a classroom with poor results. Bottom line: all students deserve certified teachers even if that means someone who is “qualified” without a license has to jump through a few hoops.

By Belle Haven Alum

September 25, 2007 11:07 AM | Link to this

Folks continue to conflate issues and have a lack of historical context on this blog. First, ANY union is a cartel which seeks to restrict labor supply to increase wages paid to its members. And one of the primary ways to restrict supply of labor is via “certification”. Now certainly instances in which this is important, e.g. trades such as plumbing, electric, and carpentry. And certainly believe applicable when it comes to teachers but the problem is what is the metric? And how is it applied? So if I have a BA in Economics from Stanford and an MBA from University of Chicago but lack “certification” in pedagogical techniques but perhaps could make a great teacher if given the chance - w/o having to jump through bureaucratic hurdles - and on the other hand you have “certified” teacher in pedagogy but does not know economics/finance - who would you rather have teaching this subject to your child? Hence the logic behind why charters do not rely on “certified” teachers - trying to increase the pool of highly-talented potential teachers - not to mention that teacher unions do NOT apply their own standard consistently. Against public funds given to individuals to make their own choice? Must not have heard of the GI Bill established after WWII, the largest “voucher” program in U.S. history. And those on the left who consider charters part of “conspiracy” to destroy public education - traditional public systems were ALREADY destroying themselves, over a much longer period of time mind you; hence the outcry for choice. To reiterate, some charters are very good, some are very bad, and some are just mediocre; those that do not perform should be shut down - via the established guidelines, not bullying. The point is that charters exist to provide parents w/ choice - parent engagement implicit in that term - and anyone arguing against parents having the right to choose how to educate their children argues a fundamentally flawed position. Traditional public systems and their supporters do not like charters because they cut into the historic monopoly public systems have exercised over this space, plain and simple. If there was genuine concern for educating children, then there would not be acrimony toward charter schools; no the real concern is money, union and administrative jobs. As Happy Homeschooler has said previously, parents/children do not exist to serve the system, the overwhelming ethos of traditional public schools.

By Rick

September 24, 2007 4:32 PM | Link to this

What bothers me is that the legislature has set a procedure to deal with failing charter schools. And I am glad they have. However, it appears our attorney general has dreamed up a novel legal concept to go after charter schools. I believe in the rule of law and I certainly hope those who do not like charter schools would still support the rule of law in this matter.

By joe mamma

September 24, 2007 12:55 PM | Link to this

Hey I’m all for closing non-performing charters. They are supposed to be closed if they don’t perform. But you do have to wonder that if the teachers at these schools were Ohio Education Association members would this be happening? My guess would be that it wouldn’t.

By Public School Advocate

September 24, 2007 8:34 AM | Link to this

I totally agree with one dps teacher! Parents start parenting so teachers can teach! Parents also need to be involved with their childs education.

By Will

September 23, 2007 5:35 PM | Link to this

As much as anti-charter proponents may applaud the move by Dann, no one, public schools or charter have come up with a way to successfully educate all the students of the Miami Valley. That is the real issue. everything else is just distraction useless noise. This is a great information and insight blog but the arguments are quickly becoming redundant. Scott you’ve done a great job, but I for one am going to bow out of this redundancy.

By Calvin

September 23, 2007 11:17 AM | Link to this

Oldprof, the charter schools deserve some scrutiny. We need to print the name of their super, principal, teachers and the pay they get. We need to detail their certifications for teaching and the length of time they’ve been in that school. We need to look at how much went out of funds to the business trying to making a profit from them. Or look at how they squeeze materials and costs (like salaries to attract truly qualified, certified teachers).

By Dave

September 22, 2007 5:01 PM | Link to this

It’s only been five years? How many years do they get? They contracted with the state to do BETTER than DPS, not to give it a try to EVENTUALLY turn into an acceptable school system.

By Calvin

September 22, 2007 9:47 AM | Link to this

Charter schools were started by their proponents because they could “do more with less” than those awful public schools. Accountability is happening and it should happen. It was sloughed over by Taft and the ‘Publicans for years because anyone against public school was their buddy—that gets votes for their pork jobs. Public schools have steps to meet for the Ohio standards and the NCLB (Yuk) Kennedy, Boehner, Bush thing. A charter school has had 5 years, they should be performing well now. They get to pick their teachers, pay them less, use public monies, be money makers for profit corporations in some cases. Come on. Public money is being used, do what you promised. As for “most charter schools are performing very, very well” by charter school advocate—hehe. That ain’t true. They’re bottom of the barrel.

By David

September 22, 2007 8:22 AM | Link to this

Happy Homeschooler, these students would have been served in West Carrolton, not Dayton. It’s not just about Dayton is the point— it’s about schools that are underperforming. Public schools do have sanctions placed upon them for limited success- in Cleveland, the district was ultimately taken over by the State Department of Education! That is what could happen, in addition to many other sanctions, to any Public school, but not Charter Schools.

By Oldprof

September 22, 2007 8:13 AM | Link to this

SIGH. Let’s boil this down. The charter movement is the latest attempt by private-school and for-profit lobbies to get their hands on public funds. Now they squawk because—surprise!—with public funds come public controls. Currently, charters are excused from 100+ mandates that publics must meet; eventually most of those will be imposed on charters as well—and then we’ll see how far they sink. And then the private-school lobbies might realize their error.

By one dps teacher

September 22, 2007 2:21 AM | Link to this

Howard - I don’t understand what you are proposing to replace either charter or public schools. Parochial schools? Home schooling? Teaching children is complicated only because it involves human beings who are all different in abilities, temperments and environments; because the funding for education is controlled by politics; and because our society has given up the responsibility for raising the children it begets. Schools/teachers are in fact parenting children. At DPS we feed breakfast and lunch and even snacks. We provide books, supplies, and often uniforms. We check for lice and bruises. We hug and scold. We are called mom and dad and grandma. We see that they get on the right bus and wave them off. We provide 7 hours of security in a scary world. If our urban (and I’m sure many suburban & rural) children were being raised by strong, smart moms and dads who cared instead of being raised by TVs, Videos, Computer games, tired grandmas, drugged out/immature/incarcerated/or just absent parents, schools could do the much easier job of just teaching kids to read, write & do math. Instead, we must also take the care of them that isn’t happening at home. It’s not the charter schools fault (we just want them to have to follow our same rules and we distrust for-profits to actually care for kids and commit to communities); it’s not the union’s fault (I am a teacher and a union member. I deserve a contract, due process and a small say in my working conditions.); it’s not the public school’s fault (yes, DPS is a flawed organization and those at the top need to be replaced by people who will support students and teachers.) It is our society’s failing that has fostered lack of strength, character and integrity in our citizenry. That generation of 20’s and 30’s better wake up soon. Grandma isn’t getting any younger and soon there won’t be anyone to take care of the kids. And the kids won’t be strong or wise enough to take care of Grandma when she needs it.

By jackie

September 21, 2007 10:56 PM | Link to this

in that case Mr. Dann need to go after the failing public schools too. Not just the charter schools. As a parent, I have my right to sent my kids to the school I think is best for my child.

By jackie

September 21, 2007 10:49 PM | Link to this

personally Trotwood prep does an excellent job in teaching. Been there seen it myself!

By teacher

September 21, 2007 10:00 PM | Link to this

These kids are from Moraine and Jefferson Township and they are not getting a better education in that charter school than they could in West Carrollton. In fact the school they left is doing a lot better than MCS has ever done. DPS is not an issue here. The Moraine Community School should have never been allowed to open. It definately does not serve the best interest of any of its students, unless chaos and lack of instruction is a need. It is a mess and it needs to disappear.

By cons

September 21, 2007 9:07 PM | Link to this

Give us a break. Government schools are failing children every day. So, because of this, let’s target all charter schools so the parents have no choice but to put their kids back in public schools only to be passed from grade go grade because the “teacher” can’t deal with them. Shame on public teachers that are involved with the unions!

By gd390

September 21, 2007 9:03 PM | Link to this

When are the Public Schools going to be sued by the parents of the children being sent there? For decades, Dayton public schools have failed in providing adequate education. If he wins, where does that leave these kids with educational opportunities?

By jackie

September 21, 2007 7:43 PM | Link to this

To terrie; What is wrong with trotwood prep that Mr. Dun sould be checking out? Explain yourself. I have a student that goes there who has aspergers and they do a wonderful job with him. I took him out because the school system was not helping him. What about the failing public scholls? If he is going to come against failing schools, go against all not just charter only. Personally, since Mr. Strickland was against charter from the beginning and lost in his efforts, that he is zllowing Mr. Dunn to pick away at charter schools. Go figure.

By Happy Homeschooler

September 21, 2007 6:13 PM | Link to this

It takes time to raise test scores. The school has only been open 5 years. Would these kids be better off in DPS? Considering that in the last 5 years, DPS has only met 5 indicators, probably not. Why isn’t DPS being sued or held truly accountable? It’s okay to have kids failing if the school is a public school, but not a charter school? Seems like a pathetic excuse, as best.

By Education Supporter

September 21, 2007 6:06 PM | Link to this

Many of the charter high schools service the drop out populations of their districts. This is the first I have heard of the Moraine school. However, as Terrie indicated, if Mr. Marc Dann wants to have a significant impact charter schools, perhaps he should turn his attention [via a thorough investigation] to the mismanagement of State funds going to many of the elementary-level charter schools. I find it ironic that, particularly, Myrrah Satow and Jeannette Harris can nickel and dime funds from their schools and students through their management companies while White Hat Management receives bad press for the same thing these ladies have been doing for years. What’s wrong with this picture?

By Howard

September 21, 2007 4:10 PM | Link to this

Dee, if the charter schools are held to the same standard as GOVERNMENT Schools then the Attorney General has a big job on his hands. Dayton Public Schools should be sued also, they as well as many other GOVERNMENT schools are failing minimum standards. Maybe this is the kind of reform needed to make sure no child is left behind ! This will probably be the loop hole in the law that will allow the charter schools to continue, and GOVERNMENT schools to continue to under educate our children. It’s only about money, job’s and unions. Not education. Oh and I forgot Attorneys who find loop holes. “If the glove does not fit, you must aquit.”

By Dan

September 21, 2007 4:06 PM | Link to this

Where has the $6M gone?

By charter school advocate

September 21, 2007 3:50 PM | Link to this

Although Mr. Dann has every right to criticize charter schools (1st ammendment), please remember these schools are only allowed to operate in districts where public schools are already failing. Charter schools (most of them, anyway) are trailblazing with personalized education, and other interventions for these struggling students. Just because a charter school’s test scores are not as good as Beavercreek, Oakwood, Vandalia, etc., does not mean they are not working very well for our troubled youth. Do your research before you badmouth every school out there, most charter schools are performing very, very well (considering their student base), and are helping students every step of the way.

By Dee

September 21, 2007 3:19 PM | Link to this

I hope they go after other charter schools personally. I know of one that has children who are failing yet are still “passed” so the school can meet requirements. I have proof of this as well. Charter schools should be held to the same standard as a public school, plain and simple.

By Terrie

September 21, 2007 2:23 PM | Link to this

Mr.Marc Dann, need to be checking out the charter school in trotwood off of shiloh spring. Trotwood prep fitness academy.