Get on the Bus

By School Supporter

July 3, 2007 5:08 PM | Link to this

“Affirmative action … only gives the appearance but fuels racial resentment.” In the Seattle case, Justice Clarence Thomas cautioned, “beware of elites bearing racial theories,” and noted the district’s “obsession with race.” He questioned the value of the “White Privilege Conference” endorsed by the women’s and ethnic studies departments at UC Colorado Springs and suggested administrators could not be trusted to make lawful race-based decisions, writing, “That is a gamble I am unwilling to take, and it is one the Constitution does not allow.” Thomas specifically referenced an editorial (one of several) from the Seattle Times by Danny Westneat “describing racial issues in Seattle schools.”

By Nick Alexander

July 3, 2007 11:35 AM | Link to this

in regards to Laura, my wife is a teacher, and I took many of the same classes as her before changing my degree. I know it’s not the teachers or the principals that are saying where to go. My grandfather had his hand in local politics years ago, and I learned a lot from him on what route to take to deal with various issues. My wife currently wants to use open enrollment to place our child in a different district than the one we live in if we still live here when our son enters kindergarten.

By Eric

July 3, 2007 8:19 AM | Link to this

Quick question about integration in schools. Does affirmative action policies integrate the kids or does it only give the appearance of integration? Kind of a big difference here and I want to know how others feel. I think that it only gives the appearance but fuels racial resentment.

By Laura

July 3, 2007 12:08 AM | Link to this

First to Nick: In theory, I understand what you are saying. I would feel the same way. However, in the situation of DPS and many other urban districts, the issue wasn’t always that the district officials wanted to keep the numbers a certain way but that it was court ordered. Your comment, “That you would tell them off”, is an example of what frustrates teachers so much. You would be telling off people that really had nothing to do with the rule except to administer it. Hot-headed comments and attitudes such as that do nothing to change the situation or improve the working relationship. Another DPS teacher, I agree with your observation about so-called “white flight”. In many situations it was exactly the idea of busing kids clear across town that caused many people to move. I grew up in Fairborn during the time of the desegregation. There were a lot of rumors ging around about how it would be handled. It was said that there would be several counties merged together, such as MOntgomery and Greene, so that they could also desegregate Xenia. My parents vowed to put my brothers and I in private school or move to keep us from being bused as much as two hours away. My parents were not racists. They did not raise their children to be racists. My dearest friend in the world is African-American. She called my parents Mom and Pop and they loved her like a daughter. (I think my Dad actually liked her better than me!:)) My son was ten before he suddenly realized she wasn’t an actual family member! I have dated men of other races and cultures. Obviously, race is not a factor in how we live our life but, I would have to seriously consider making other arrangements for my children if they were being bussed a significant distance, but race would not be a factor. Oh, and Jessie, you probably haven’t been around in a few years if you haven’t had a parent ask you, “And what did you do/say to make my child do/say that?” :) It is never the fault of the child!

By Another DPS Teacher

July 2, 2007 10:46 PM | Link to this

I agree with Andy’s comments; and yes, we need to stop the racism on both sides. I am a female African-American and I still wonder why the bottom lines have to be about our gender or skin color? Let’s not forget that it was the attempt to desegregate the DPS school district that created the segregation we see today. I attended Cornell Heights, located in Dayton View, which was a very affluent area in the early 60s. Blacks and whites walked to school together and learned in the same classrooms together and we got along just fine. And no, the whites didn’t flee south to get away from the black, many left because they didn’t want their children bussed across town. Having children of my own, I can’t say I blame them!

By Nick Alexander

July 2, 2007 3:30 PM | Link to this

I think that this issue is more related to affirmative action then to education. Is filling the quota for minorities per school really any different than telling the minorities they have to go to the same school? Wasn’t there a time that people moved to places to make sure their kids would go to a certain school? If I moved to Dayton and lived within a mile or two of a school, I’d expect my kids to go there, if the school district tried to tell me that my kid couldn’t go to the neighborhood school just because a number of minority students needed to go there to keep the numbers balanced, I’d tell off that administration. If they told me they want to bus my kid to a school miles away with other schools closer, I’d tell them that my kid is going to the one closest or I’d make sure my child and his tax dollars would be going to a different school system, because if he is going to go to a school thats not closest, it will be by the choice of my wife and I, not a school district wanting to keep everyone balanced.

By Jessie

July 2, 2007 2:01 PM | Link to this

Bless you Peter!! I taught for a number of years in the Dayton Public School system. Yes, there is a problem with some teachers not fulfilling their obligations to actually teaching their students what needs to be taught. These teachers are lazy and are just looking at getting a paycheck. However, the biggest problem facing students in DPS right now (I can only speak of DPS since I never taught anywhere else) is the lack of parental involvement and accountability. When I was growing up, when my parents got a call about my brother or I being disruptive or not giving our all, we were grounded, birthday parties were taken away, etc. When I would call a parent of a student who was creating problems in my classroom, 9 times out of 10 I got as an answer “What did the other kid do to him first?” or “So? What do you want me to do about it?” No responsibility was taken whatsoever by the parents for the behavior of their children. And yet, teachers are still expected to work miracles in the classroom!! I believe I once saw a statistic somewhere that said only 9% of our lives (grades K-12) are spent in school. 9%!!!! Teachers are not miracle workers and to anyone who thinks that we can teach students to pass proficiency tests - those same students who can’t spell their own names at the age of 6 because their parents haven’t bothered to teach them their letters - has some waking up to do! Instead of haggling about issues at the 50,000 foot level, let’s all get real and start dealing with the actual problem. Parents need to start parenting their children so teachers can actually teach.

By Laura

July 2, 2007 1:07 PM | Link to this

I firmly believe that the comments made by Rick and Peter are the answer to all of Dayton and many other school districts problems. It is the parents that make all the difference. As a very clear example, I have friends who teach in a nearby suburban district. Over the last decade or more, this district has had increasing financial and academic problems. I can remember years ago talking with these teachers about the attitudes of their students and parents compared to those of my students and parents in Dayton. It surprised me to hear how many students/parents they had whose attitudes mirrored those of my students and their parents. The teachers said they were getting more and more students from Dayton. The students were of Appalachian descent. These students and their parents do not place much value on education. I am of Appalachian descent myself and know first hand the attitude of many. They not only do not value education, they look down on those who “leave” and become college educated. These students are white, not black, and exhibit the same attitudes and school performance problems that we see in Dayton and other urban area. They are mostly, but not always, poor. I have seen some quite wealthy people with the same attitudes. These people usually obtained their wealth through oil rights/land sales or by marrying “up”. We have to find a way to change the belief systems of this group of people.

By Mary

July 2, 2007 12:10 PM | Link to this

Peter, I agree with a lot of what you say about parenting. However, I do not think the problems and responsibilities regarding parenting a child lie only with the parents. The workplace design, how employers accommodate mothers and fathers in the workplace, rigid work schedules, failing social structures regarding families, womenhood and fatherhood, lack of flexible work options, less than a living wage, school schedules, unflexible education and curriculum designs, socially degrading school environments and peer pressure, marketing to kids, lead based paint in homes, pollution and smog, bad food, required vaccinations and other medical procedures, are not under parental control but greatly influence children, and parenthood workload and stress. A lot of people who beat on their chest about family values and parenthood are greedy, been married three or four times, leave child rearing totally up to their spouse (usually the mom), deprive mothers and fathers a living wage and time off, freak out over unborn chilren while doing nothing about the fact that worldwide a child dies every three seconds of a preventable cause such as disease and starvation. Unfortunately, a lot of my parenting stress has been caused by other adults telling me what I have to do with my child even when I do not agree.

By Mom of 3

July 1, 2007 10:36 PM | Link to this

I am a white, middle class mom. My children attend Dayton Public Schools. (By the way- they have had some incredible opportunities to obtain a high quality education.) I have felt the sting of discrimination through my profoundly handicapped son’s experiences. Discrimination hurts no matter who is on the receiving end. In my eyes, this issue is not necessarily a black/white issue… it is more an issue of equal opportunity for all. (Be they black, white, rich, poor, home owners, renters, handicapped or “normal.”) Our society needs to make wise choices when it comes to how we treat one another. Everyone has the right to a free and approptiate education. Period. Let’s keep the focus on that. Peace.

By Andy

July 1, 2007 11:18 AM | Link to this

People, to solve our problems we we need to get away from big bureaucratic government. Stop the damn busing and build more neighborhood schools. In Dayton, busing has wasted a lot of money and really destroyed the parent teacher organizations. This is my first hand experiences. At one time I had a home in the Five Oaks area. My kids could walk to school at Van Cleve. Not anymore! Poor families can not walk across town to PTA meeting they have to take a RTA them maybe transfer to another RTA to make a 6:00 PTA meeting. Get back to the basics. Also to the stupid parents that I’ve heard say “A white teacher can’t teach a black kid and black teacher can’t teach white kids”. Stop the racism on both sides.

By Peter

June 30, 2007 8:05 PM | Link to this

Perhaps it is time to shift the focus from race and economics to the quality of parenting, the prime determinant in the quality of education. Parents of color and parents living in poverty have the opportunity to guarantee their child a fine education if THEY do their job. Far too much responsibility for filling in the gaps caused by irresponsible parenting falls in the hands of the school district. I think it is time for society to begin to bring pressure to where it really belongs, in the lap of the parents. Children who come to school well rested, well fed, and with healthy social skills developed in the home do fine. It is the children who come from homes who do not provide these advantages who struggle and who monopolize the vast majority of attention and resources, particularly in urban districts like Dayton. It is not wealth and it is not race, it is parenting that makes the difference.

By Leib

June 30, 2007 6:33 PM | Link to this

Racially Divided Schools: The Supreme Court was right- but for the wrong reason As a product of forced busing in the 1960�s I can speak to the issue from a unique perspective. I was among a few token whites bused into a black school as part of the New York City �Integrate the schools� movement. At the time, the majority of bussed kids were blacks coming from overflowing ghetto schools to the shrinking white enclaves of Manhattan, My parents were strong believers in what some call a social experiment, others saw it as an essential way to bring back the melting pot that commingled millions of immigrants earlier in our nation�s history. Our white neighbors threw rocks through our windows in protest of my parents� actions and beliefs. The crumpled rubber banded paper that read �N****r Lover� was a particularly succinct and vitriolic message. The nation�s courts ruled at the same time that Public Systems across the country needed to racially balance their schools. The belief was that white kids had great schools, and black kids had abysmal ones. Mixing students would level the playing field and offer a fair and equitable education for all. Forty years later the Supreme court handed down a split judgment that the experiment was over. Race was no longer as a reason to offer a leg up to blacks even if oppressed, or a basis to restrict the opportunities of whites, even if they were already privileged students. My experience as a token white, in an extremely racially and culturally diverse elementary school was enlightening, educational and unforgettable. I learned that being poor did not mean being dumb; just that their parents usually were too busy working to survive to instill the higher education vision that richer, more educated parents strive for. And black kids did not throw rocks at white houses. In reality, in most communities, integrating schools along racial lines realistically brought poor students from neighborhoods with less experienced teachers into better schools with more experienced teachers. In many states, it also led to the panic of white flight; further segregating and isolating communities along racial and income lines. The Supremes are probably right now. Race is not, and never was the real differentiator. It was, and is, poverty and culture. Students in poor communities perform poorly in almost every aspect of educational measurement. Students in rich communities inherently perform much better. Yes, race and poverty are inexorably linked, but race alone is NOT the culprit. Regardless of the reason, generational poverty has and will breed generations of failing students. We need to find ways to break the cycle of educational ghettos. Our schools should be integrated, not along racial lines, But along fiscal and cultural ones. Our schools need to be financed fairly for all and students need to learn in classes that are not homogenous. Students of all races, cultures and income levels need to learn together by bringing financially and culturally disadvantaged students into the same classes as those of privilege. Only by allowing our kids to see and learn in financially stable schools within the diversity of America will we be able to finally and ultimately allow every child to envision and attain the American Dream. Leib Lurie Leib Lurie is a product of New York City Public Schools, and CEO of School notification service OneCallNow You can his blog at www.llurie.blogspot.com

By Sunnymom

June 30, 2007 9:51 AM | Link to this

It is ridiculous to assume that school population is controlled by racist attitudes, or that kids can’t learn to treat people of all racial groups with respect and courtesy unless they are surrounded by ‘diversity. I grew up in a poor rural area, and didn’t see a person of another race until I was in my teens, and sent to a private school. I had no problem communicating with people of other ethnic groups, because while they may have had skin of a different color along with facial features reflective of their ancestry, they were still from Earth and not another planet. I agree with Eric, that schools should reflect the communities they are in, and true school choice would resolve the diversity problem, instead of quotas based on race, which are inherently discriminatory against someone, and will create even more resentment and racist attitudes, not make those attitudes go away.

By Rick

June 30, 2007 9:42 AM | Link to this

Most inequality of education is due to how much the family values education. This usually, but not always, can be reflected in the economic status of the parents. (Although sometimes when both parent are hard charging, high-come wage earners, they do not have the time to pay attention to their children’s education.) I do not believe that race, per se, has much to do with it. Those black children whose parents highly value education will be well educated themselves.

By Mary

June 30, 2007 9:04 AM | Link to this

“oldprof”, I agree a diversity of backgrounds and ideas in the learning, working, and social environment can be beneficial no matter one’s race, economic background, sex,religion, etc. However, by constructing and “social engineering” a solution to diversity in the classroom, academic learning, which is also critical in a society, takes a back seat. This may be, or may be not, as critical in the “soft” liberal arts studies, as in math, science, and engineering. For example, some educators and others think it is perfectly okay to use gifted students to simply help teach other students while not providing gifted students a challenging academic learning experience as well. Some think it is okay to not challenge high ability students academically and water down their classroom so other students of lower abilities can “feel better” by being in the same classroom. In many of these situations, no one learns to the best of their abilities. Race and economics are not the only issues used to bastardize the classroom to simply promote someone’s methods of social engineering. However, many blacks and poor are gifted and have high academic abilities. It is a myth that richer and whiter are also smarter in the classroom. Social engineering approaches to the classroom occur also in mostly white suburbs. But meanwhile, in the same schools, it is okay to select sports teams by abilities only and exclude everyone else. Racial and sexual diversity is thrown out the window when the same high schools, colleges, and professional teams are drafting athletes and assigning white male coaches and athletic directors. Why is it okay to beat up the classroom and academics only when it comes to social engineering and diversity in the educational environment. Educators at the high school and college level should water down their sports teams, too, while they are at their social engineering games. We see what Dayton Public Schools has done as mostly white suburban schools do when education funds get tight, we get rid of gifted ed and academic programs, but keep and support elite sports teams. The inconsistency is glaring and begs an explanation of our approach to how we deal with, support and develop mental skills and abilities within the education bureauracy. How many white, Asian and Hispanic guys and women and black women were drafted out of the educational system by the NBA this week? Not too many. I notice many of those drafted were conomically privileged children of former professional athletes. Meanwhile, what are we doing for highly intelligent, short or tall, rich or poor, black men in our educational system. Not much at all.

By Nick

June 29, 2007 8:20 PM | Link to this

No, both of you are absolutely right. Heaven forbid white families have to send our children to “colorful” schools. The affluent white majority will 9/10 times send their kids to predominantly white schools. The “school of choice” will almost always be the “school of your race,” as we’re seeing today. De jure discrimination isn’t necessary anymore — we’ve been socialized to do it ourselves. Praise be to the hegemonic institutions of the land. The government HAS to step in and preserve desegregation efforts or 40 years of progress will be for naught. People don’t realize what’s at stake, and will only learn the true repercussions of this decision when their children graduate into a racially diverse workplace — where they may not even be in the majority — and are totally unable to connect with people of other races. Diversity is good. De facto discrimination has to be tackled by the government somehow, and this was the most effective means at their disposal. What now?

By Skeptic

June 29, 2007 4:56 PM | Link to this

Our society is not overtly racist like it was in the past. Today people of ALL races sometimes choose to live in segregated neighborhoods because they WANT to. It makes sense that a school should reflect the community and not create artifical balances. Thus, neighborhood schools…………………..I think today it is more about economic background. If a person grows up a poor family in a poor community they will be less likely to succeed. So it makes sense to stop measuring race and start measuring economics………….. If you want to legislate diversity, then require all schools to carry some percentage of low income families and cap a maximum number. This will force districts to consolidate across urban, suburban, and rural lines to meet these economic “quotas” and achieve diversity without race. If Congress can gerrymander their voting districts to achieve their goals, why can’t they do the same with school districts?

By Margo

June 29, 2007 3:51 PM | Link to this

There is some misunderstanding about the thrust of the Brown decision, which overturned the previously accepted doctrine that students could be separated by race so long as the education provided was equal. Brown hinged on findings that racial separation in and of itself rendered the outcomes unequal. Moving ahead fifty years, we still find that most students attend schools that are heavily segregated by race—with the results—plainly evident in persistent achievement gaps—still harmful to students of color. The Kentucky plan used contribution to the racial diversity of a school in a very minor decision making capacity—as a tie-breaker when all other factors were equal. Hard to see how this trampled anyone’s constitutional rights.

By Oldprof

June 29, 2007 3:20 PM | Link to this

Note that Justice Kennedy specified that race MAY be a consideration, but that black-white quotas are not acceptable. A diverse classroom IS contributory to good education; to argue that one or the other is exclusive as Mary is doing here is false. While we should have learned, from forced busing, that heavy-handed social engineering via the schools is futile, we should also recognize—as did Kennedy—that some diversity programs are justified and productive.

By Eric

June 29, 2007 9:41 AM | Link to this

If racial equality is the end result, you will not get that by saying race is a factor of admission decission. It’s that simple. The Supreme Court did EXACTLY what Brown vs B of Edu Topeka did as well. You can NOT use race as a decission for school admission. What is so hard about that? Have you noticed that every affirmative action policy, once it hits the courts, are judged illegal?!!! There is a reason for that.

By Mary

June 29, 2007 7:16 AM | Link to this

I was a student in the South in the 50’s and 60’s when Brown versus the Board of Education became law and was implemented in various fashions. It was not always pretty, and a lot of the load was put on the kids, particularly black kids. From what I know,I do not think this will have the same impact and might actually be a correction as to how the law is implemented. I have a problem with using children and education to carry the brunt of the load to achieve racial balances that adults are not tackling in their own social and economic spheres outside the schools. As a child, I remember a statement my dad made about the focus in education was now totally on desegregation, and not at all on education. The social engineering that education bureaucracies sometimes zealously deal with detact from their primary function of education. In trying to balance the classrooms racially, by sex, by religion, by ability, by economics or whatever, curriculum and education get thrown out the window or shoved aside. A focus on a quality education for all might be the best way to work past discriminatory practices. Let the child, white or black, go to their school of choice, not by force.