By maxmoose03

March 1, 2007 8:53 PM | Link to this

“As for foreclosures, Mason indicates that today’s foreclosure picture is a picnic. Back in the 1930s, thrifts often didn’t bother to foreclose when borrowers fell behind. Why take ownership of an asset that had to be sold for a loss?”

BINGO. Even though “often” is a word that is used when people are unable to quantify things, there is a very telling point here.

Banks today are more than happy to write real estate loans, because they have such confidence in the value of the collateral. Loan officers do not see the catastrophe that the prophets of doom do.

In fact what the Doomsday folks think is a disaster is sometimes a Godsend. I have a friend who is a local project director for a builder. This gentlemen is positively giddy over the high number of cancellations he has had. Why?

“These people leave 30 to 50 thousand dollar deposits behind, without fightin’ for their money back. They don’ even ask.” (I can’t duplicate his lilting Southern twang, but you get the idea.)

What about the houses they don’t get to build on those lots?

“Heck. They all git sold.”

SO here’s a “disaster” which means an unearned windfall,or at least more flexibility the next time the lot is sold.

Wihout waxing too philosophical, debt controls our lives. We think of ourselves as free people, not slaves, but the truth is our indenture is determined by the nature of our debt. Our debt ultimately decides for us what we study, where we live, who we marry, what career we work at. Those few families that are truly free from debt, the Kennedy’s, the Reckefeller’s and so forth, have such an extraordinary panoply of choices that they can get involved in hobbies the rest of us can not, such as….becoming President or Senator, and legislating what the rest of us can and can’t do.

(CW must be loving this.)

The fact is, there has been no inherent change in the structure of debt, none that has or will change our choices of what to study, what to work at, etc….

Now, if the Doomsayser want to find a REAL problem in the making, take a look at the stock market. Even if Friday the market is only mildly down — the trend these days — we may have some real rock ‘n’ roll Monday - one way or the other.

By Steve

March 1, 2007 9:19 PM | Link to this

Pinoccio, you’re going to put someone’s eye out with that nose.

Banks were more than happy to loan the money because they would package them as mortgage backed securities and sell them to hedge funds. Removing the loans from their books.

By cw1900

March 1, 2007 9:37 PM | Link to this

Debt. This is a subject I’ve talked about until I’m black in the face. Black? Yes, black means positive. Red means negative, and since I don’t do debt except for fixed rate mortgages, I’m in the black, baby.

Max, I am not loving this. I think it is sad. One sentence you said really freaked me out. You said it so matter of fact, I’m not even sure you realized how prophetic it was….and that is what’s so scary about it. You said…

“…debt controls our lives”

That says is all. It may control most peoples lives, but it DOES NOT control my life. Really, that’s the big reason I’m not freaked out about stuff here like some of the doomers. They are freaked out because of their enormous debt load they pay on every month.

Look people, I am not rich. Our household income is not even close to 200k like Max likes to say we should all be making. My wife is a teacher. Yes, I have more houses (4), land, and money in the stock market than some of you (some, not most I’m sure), but that’s because I could do that for the sole reason of not having huge debt. The mortgages are small and other people pay for them. 3 of the 4 houses I put at least 20% down. The other one was my first and I was dumber back then, but I still have it and have rented it out for years. Other people have made those payments for me.

Most everyone here could have bought a second home 5-6 years ago and be sitting pretty with nothing to worry about and a hefty increase in value, but it was more important to lease those cars and rack up huge credit car bills at the mall and have nothing to show for it. Am I describing you? Are you pi$$ed at me for making you feel like crap? Good. Maybe you’ll do something about it.

You do not have to have a car payment, you only think you do. I haven’t had one in 14 years if I did the math right. I live by the philosophy that if you can’t buy a car for cash or pay for it within one year, you really cannot afford it. Sound crazy you say? Not really. It’s simply too much money to spend on something that goes down in value while you are still in the process of building your future, and they ALL go down in value huge. Don’t try and weasle out by saying yours holds its value better than the other car, that is crapola and you know it. They all drop in value . They are not an investment. They are a necessity. When you have boatloads of dough like some here, Max, FL Ren, Easy, and a few others I believe, then they can afford to go out and buy new cars and boats. Why not? They have the money and they are financially very secure. That’s what you worked so hard for, so yes, go out and enjoy it. I’m not there yet, but I’m getting close.

But the poor slobs you see everyday driving down I-95 in their brand new trucks and cars, most of them can’t afford it, and they know it, they just want it. They are trading the future of being very well off for a new Navigator, so they can look good to people who don’t give a crap about them. How very sad is that.

If you do not have to make payments every month on cars, boats, helocs, second mortgages, and credit cards, you can sleep at night very well, and you cannot imagine how much money you will have if you don’t have those payments.

The problem is you care what your neighbors think of you and I don’t. I could care less if you think you have a better car than me. You probably do, so what. You and your wife fight about money every day.

Debt does control your life, but it doesn’t have to. Reconsider people. You’ll thank me later.

cw

By maxmoose03

March 1, 2007 9:49 PM | Link to this

Steve - Actually, I have an average sized nose. But that still makes it an inch longer than your…happines to see your wife.

Conforming loans are routinely packaged and bought on the secondary mortgage market by government-backed companies such as Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. This allows banks to renew their source of funds, a process known as intermediaton.

Schmuck.

Enough with you, CW may have something interesting to say.

By Steve

March 1, 2007 10:17 PM | Link to this

CW

I agree you should live within your means. You should also not count your chickens before they hatch. Fl Renuissance, Sleazy and Maxloser rich? Pha haaa haaa

Pinoccio

Selling those loans also allows banks to clear their books. Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac? No fraud there, right? And technically they’re government sponsored.

By maxmoose03

March 1, 2007 10:19 PM | Link to this

I knew that topic would get you, CW. And yes, I did realize the rhetorical force of what I was saying.

Unfortunately, this applies to you too, my friend.

Tomorrow, Friday Morning, you will not pursue your fascination with lepidopterology, nor will you paint the next Mona Lisa.

You will go to a stupid job for a company that would drop you like a hot potato the moment it saw economic advantage in doing so.

You will hold houses not because you love your tenants, but because they represent a future freedom from dearth in your mind.

Similarly, in your mind the savings from putting your kids in a Toyota are more real than the chances of their bodies being mangled because they are not in a sturdier vehicle.

Going to that job is not what you would choose tomorrow, given unlimited latitude in your activities, nor would you choose it the next day (or Monday) nor the day after.

It is part of a compromise with life that is based primarily on the fact that living causes debt in our society. You want to eat? You want to feed your family? It don’t come cheap.

Tell me you never wanted to do anything in life beyond what you are doing now, CW, and I will tell you that you are full of crapola — especially one as expressive as you.

You do what you need to get by, like most of us. Some of us wind up with bigger houses, some smaller. Some wind up working hard, some skip working as I have done in recent years — and may in fact stop doing, as I am so unproductive. Even so, every day I have a stack of mail and a list of crap I must tend to. In between items, I can flip over and waste time on the blog.

We are all pretty much constrained in what we do. Most of us don’t figure out how to handle it, but you know….maybe it’s time I put the novia in the car, left the dog at the vet, took a credit card and just started heading North.

If you don’t hear from me for a while, you’ll know it happened :-)

By Steve

March 1, 2007 10:30 PM | Link to this

I think I’m gonna hurl.

By maxmoose03

March 1, 2007 10:42 PM | Link to this

NO, STEVE — Watch out for your pants and shoes, DON’T -

Awww. S**t. OK, stop crying. Go show Mommy.

By maxmoose03

March 2, 2007 2:15 AM | Link to this

“The county’s median price last month was $388,000, down just $5,700 or about 1 percent from $393,700 a year ago, the Florida Association of Realtors said Tuesday. The January median increased $19,800 over December’s $368,200.”

This from the Sun-Sentinel, talking about Palm Beach County.

What I have been trying to point out here for 2 days.

OK, so SFH prices in PBC (existing homes ) up about 5.4% in one year.

Hmmm. If that continued all year, that would be about a 65% rise for the year.

If that were compounded every month, it would be a cumulative gain of a freakish 188% gain for the year, so we’ll forget about that one. Besides, Mike Fink doesn’t do compound returns anyway.

If you read FAR’s press release, you will find that they, like the Post, tiptoed around these numbers to avoid mentioning the fact that prices surged last month. Why would they want to do that? Answer follows immediately.

By maxmoose03

March 2, 2007 2:47 AM | Link to this

OOOPS! Above, I meant prices here up 5.4% in one month, NOT one year.

OK, Why does FAR want you to think prices will fall? Why do they want you to think it’s important that volume be high?

It’s like this. Every year, not long from now, I send FAR a check for, I forget, $500 or so. This covers my office, not any agents.

Now if I generate $0.00 in commissions, FAR gets that $500. But, if I generate $98,478,322.10 in commissions, FAR gets — the same $500.

Now let’s say I tried to hire the dumbest realtors I could find. I could try to get Steve, Rich R., RCA all licensed. If I did, each one would send a check (for somewhat less) to RAPB, in addition to mine.

SO: FAR makes its money from what? Membership. And if no one joins, FAR is hurting.

SO: What does FAR want people, including potential members, to believe?

That prices will go down, and people will be buying and selling houses like hotcakes, stopping just long enough to write a commission check.

One schmuck in the FAR hegemony just about promised this, and Linda caught it in her article.

The truth is prices are NOT dropping, and it’s not going to be quick to get rid of houses. For one thing, about one third of FAR’s membership shook out over the past year, so there aren’t even that many realtors left to get sales done.

No, an environment with high prices, low sales volume and high inventory “overhang” is not an inviting place for a Realtor to work.

So while you may begin to understand that values are rising here - and fast - don’t expect FAR or the PB Post to spell it out for you.

By maxmoose03

March 2, 2007 3:31 AM | Link to this

From SUN-SENTINEL

Q: Despite all this talk of a housing bubble, isn’t South Florida still an excellent place to invest in real estate for the long term? — Brian in Lantana

A: Brian, experts do agree that, yes, real estate remains a solid long-term investment. But investors and speculators who want to “flip” their units for fast cash will have a tough time in today’s climate.

Q: If you had to guess the cumulative appreciation rate of residential real estate in Broward County over the next 10 years, what would you say? — Brad in New York

A: During the next five years, Brad, you might see a cumulative appreciation of 30 percent to 40 percent. After that, one guess is as good as another.

Pretty smart.

By John

March 2, 2007 8:10 AM | Link to this

More like 30-40% de-appreciation….

By Average Guy

March 2, 2007 8:33 AM | Link to this

I heard that 90% of the people in Palm Beach can’t afford to buy a single-family home. How is this good? Or are 90% of the people in Palm Beach county ‘have nots’ and not working hard enough?

By Rachel

March 2, 2007 8:45 AM | Link to this

Max - I think everyone knows that the builders make out in situations like this. That’s why they call them preconstruction buys, where the builder doesn’t lose his own money, but you lose yours. No builders are crying in that situation. They go bankrupt all the time and start up again with your money if there is any left over. No big deal to them. No new news. As far as him being surprised no one has called for their money back, again, most people understand the second 10% is nonrefundable. It is in the contract they sign, and that is the risk for making profit in the end. This is no surprise. Yet there are many builders being sued now if there was no building on that second 10% and they kept their money anyway. That’s a problem. I don’t think all thse problems we are having right now was based on builders, but the investors.

By Listing Prices

March 2, 2007 9:18 AM | Link to this

On my street in 33458 there are two houses listing about 10% to 15% below what the owner paid for them. Also, has anybody noticed Canterbury in Abacoa? It seems like they just stopped construction there after its about half built.

Does anybody have the Melissa Data numbers for February?

By John

March 2, 2007 9:25 AM | Link to this

I’ve browsed several zip codes on Melissa data and all of them show dismal sales over December and January….

By 30%?

March 2, 2007 9:35 AM | Link to this

30% appreciation over 5 years is only about 5.5% per year. You can get better returns without any (or very little risk)!

With returns like that, who needs to invest in real estate and worry about hurricanes, renters, property taxes, much less the direction of this market?

By maxmoose03

March 2, 2007 10:00 AM | Link to this

John - How’s your g/f’s townhouse in Firenze? Is that guess of 40% depreciation based on the same expertise that picked out the townhouse?

Average - I don’t know where that 90% figure came from, I would suppose it is completely theoretical, based on salary surveys, and ignores any resources that 90% of people might have. Some of those people may have made 200K tax free on the sale of a home in the last 2 years, and be more than able to buy a home.

So: that seems to me to be a strictly b******t figure. 90% of the people who live in PBC live in PBC — in fact, 100% of them do, and its numerically impossible for them to all be in rentals. So whether or not they “can” afford a home — many or most are doing just that.

Rachel - what a lovely name, how conspicuous on this board. i hope you don’t really turn out to be Irving or Bill or something like that.

I never blamed the builders, although one may suspect they have an incentive for dragging their feet — something they are notorious for.

The fact is, the growth in Florida is expected by all responsible parties to be explosive. Somehow you have to match homes and people. It isn’t done on a one to one basis. I am sure builders will get ahead of or fall behind the demand curve at times.

In a perfect world, we sould all buy family homes and keep them for a lifetime, as many of our parents did. In a society where people change jobs every few years on the average, that’s not so easy to do. So we all have to learn to adapt.

In the meantime, I’m still buying those homebuilder stocks. Market is down moderately today, but watch out Monday when people get serious. I would not be surprised at some real activity, and I suspect we need another plunge.

By cw1900

March 2, 2007 10:05 AM | Link to this

Max, yes, you knew I’d be all over that topic like a suburban Boynton houswife driving to the mall with her wallet full of maxed credit cards in the leased Expedition with her sites set on that big sale at Macy’s. Look honey, I saved 25%!!

Speaking of Boynton, another two dead people in a bullet ridden car this morning at the Target at Gateway and Congress….wow, now that’s a big surprise.

Max, your point is well taken on a few items, but you know what kind of debt I was talking about, the voluntary stupid debt, and yes, we all have to eat and pay the light bill, but again, that’s not the debt I was discussing.

Don’t worry about my kids. Our cars are just fine and they were all bought for cash. I have a 2002 Explorer (Detroit metal), 2003 Volvo (just bought it two months ago, runs perfect), and a sometimes weekend car, a little 1996 BMW 318i convetible. It’s a fun little car, but the air broke last month. I bought it in 2004. I had to throw that in for you doomers who are going to bash me “cuz, yep, you’ve got the spankin’ new Durango on the 36 month lease” and if I had a $418.87 payment on it, the air would work in it, right?

Sorry, I had to throw that in.

…and, yes, Max, there are things in life I wish I could be doing and are not doing now. We all have that.

To John: “de-appreciation” ???? What???

To Average Guy: You’re still boring.

To Rachel: That’s why pre-construction is always a speculation and never an investment.

To Max again: This is what some of the doomers are using for data https://www.melissadata.com/lists/ezlists/ezhomeowners.aspx

To Max again again: Please explain to our church mouse “30%” what he is missing in his simple mathematics.

cw

By maxmoose03

March 2, 2007 10:13 AM | Link to this

30% -

A very good argument, however real estate makes use of leverage, is more stable than the stock market, and has inherent utility. You can’t live in your stock certificates. You also can’t take 30 years to pay for them.

Ironically, my real estate mutual funds returned about 50% last year, and I got a good piece of it.

It was the same when I took cash out of a bank account and bought the bank’s stock instead. My return went from 5% a year to 50% for that year.

Go figure. Admittedly, I don’t understand business. So when I comment on how grotesque and ridiculous an enterprise like Expert Realty seems to me, I also have to admit that Cohen, Shapiro and company had to come up with the money and know-how to make it go…if it is going.

By maxoose03

March 2, 2007 10:41 AM | Link to this

CW! Good Morning!

At your request, I will add this for our friend “30%”:

Over your lifetime, your home in a growing area may increase 75 times in value or more, all leveraged, as I say. What per centage the return is in the first few years is irrelevant — I personally expect it to be negative. If by a ‘coup de veine’ you happen to double your money in a few years, be thankful, and keep thinking rationally.

First-time investors are shocked when they run into a thing called expenses. Somehow they assumed the place would only make money, not cost them anything on a month to month basis. That is why you hear so many people whining here now. The truth is I am completely sympathetic with these people, have gone through it myself, can go through it again. But I believe negative return in the beginning of our projects is just part of the game. I would never expect it to be any different. In the long run that 300K condo may cost you 400K or 500K. But in the future, if you sell it for 500K, with favorable tax treatment, it’s not going to matter. Getting there is the challenge.

SO CW: A Volvo — much better than I expected. Hopefully the lethal problem with the tires on Explorers is fixed — but neither you nor I had any way of predicting that one. As for German cars - crapola, and I could have told you the A/C NEVER works. Keep the money in America (will let you slide on the Volvo).

CW, John the Idiot refuses to believe me, but if you type 33432 into that page you liked, it clearly shows houses in one of my zips going from 500K to over 1 million between November and December. Do I think this is accurate? HA HA HA HA. If only. However, I can’t convince this schmuck that “Melissa” is nonsense. Maybe he will try it himself.

He and his g/f should stick to picking out vacant townhomes in Firenze — a block from that shooting you mentioned.

By maxmoose03

March 2, 2007 10:53 AM | Link to this

Note to above, my typo, should read:

If you sell it for $1 million or more, it’s not going to matter….

Sorry…Moose aren’t too smart, you know.

By cw1900

March 2, 2007 11:07 AM | Link to this

Max,

It’s a S60 with 75k on it. Runs great. I had an old 1985 240 years back, i’m sure that car is still running somewhere. It would not die.

The Explorer, I just bought tires at Econo Tire in Jupiter. Great place and not too far from Dune Dogs. Walk there, have a beer, watch a game, hey, life taint so bad.

The 318, I did keep the money in America. I bought it off a retired guy from Jersey living in Bay Hill Estates out west on Northlake. He didn’t want to sell it, but his wife wanted it out of the garage. Poor guy. When I pulled away, I think he wanted to come with me, hahahaha!

What does this have to do with real estate? Nothing. Do we have to talk about it 24/7? Anybody going to a spring training game this weekend?

cw

By 30%

March 2, 2007 11:09 AM | Link to this

Yes, you can live in your home that will grow at 5.5% per year (hopefully 5.5% over inflation). But I’m of the school that if you are buying your home to live in, then you shouldn’t think of it as an investment. You should think of it as your home, b/c you will probably be living there for quite a while.

And when we are talking about returns, at least I’m talking about investment opportunities. Leverage is a double edged sword, and the higher your mortgage on an investment the higher your risk.

Lets say you buy a house that cost $100 with $20 cash and a mortgage of $80. At 5.5% in 5 years your house is worth $130, and your equity is worth about $50 (assuming that little of your mortgage is paid off at that point and you are cash flow neutral, which ain’t easy to do in this market). Lets also take inflation out to make it easier.

Now, if I took my $20 and invested it, and invested another $20 on margin, and it returned 15% over 5 years (which according to Max is relatively easy with the appropriate advisor), I’d have about $80. After I pay back my $20 loan (assuming interest was paid with dividends, etc.) I have $60.

Using Max’s numbers (and leverage), it seems like investing in R/E doesn’t generate great returns and may have higher risk.

Maybe I just don’t get it, so could you guys explain it to me.

One other thing on Melissa, they use the “average” price which isn’t helpful. The only thing that its good for is to get a sense of volume.

By 75 times in Value?

March 2, 2007 11:13 AM | Link to this

Max, are you crazy with 75 times in value? Over 50 years that means you have to average about 9% per year without adjusting for inflation. Historically r/e has NEVER done that.

You’re out there max, way out there…

By Mike Fink

March 2, 2007 11:31 AM | Link to this

What you guys always fail to mention about leverage, and what is so scary right now in the housing market, is what the effect is when the asset depreciates.

Yes, in a market trending up, as long as the trend in pricing is above the trend in interest (if your property is increasing in value faster then you are paying interest on the loan) you are fine. Actually, with the loans today, the ROI in unbeatable, you can truly have an infinate return on investment (because there is no investment until you start to pay the note, and with 100+% finanacing, you can actually walk with an infinate ROI if you buy and sell fast enough. In that kind of environment, the more you OWE, the RICHER you are (yes, I know, it’s crazy/stupid, and another reason why this is going to end badly).

However, what all the bulls on this site fail to realize/recognize is that if the asset depreciates in value, you are in a very, very bad situation. You can slide under a home very quickly, and owe more then it’s worth. And that’s when the alligator starts, the payments keep coming in, the asset is depreciating (or even just flat) and the income does not come close to covering the costs.

If taking extreme risk is the way to get rich, just go to the casino and put everything you own on black. Call it a day. But what RE professionals/investors have been suggesting (massive leverage to make the ROI numbers play out) is just as dangerous. And, guess what? Your doing that with mostly (or all) borrowed money.

Yes, in certain situations, it makes alot of sense to invest in RE (typically because of the tax advantaged nature of RE). But to think of it as a “low risk” investment is crazy. Your buying something on 100% margin that has huge transaction costs to get into and out of the asset. That’s a very, very risky investment strategy.

Housing, in a typical market, appreciates at very close to the rate of inflation. It has to; because over a long period of time, 5.5% over inflation (just an example) would price everyone out of the market forever (unless you already owned a home). Housing mirrors inflation, and it will drop from its peak of the last few years to mirror inflation again (as it has for the past 100 years).

By 75 times in Value?

March 2, 2007 11:33 AM | Link to this

Just to show you how absurd Max’s numbers are, lets say I bought a 3/2/2 in PB County today for 400,000.

Lets say I live in it for 50 years. According to Max its value in the year 2057 will be $30,000,000.

I think that’s all you need to know that Max is a raving lunatic.

By Mike Fink

March 2, 2007 11:37 AM | Link to this

75 times-

Ugh.. No.. Historically RE appreciaties between 0 and 1% above inflation. Not 9%.

The price of a house should, every 10-15 years should roughly double in value. However, money, in the same period of time, should about halve in value. And therefore, the end result is the cost stays relatively constant.

I don’t think that the stock market has even averaged 9% YOY over that period of time. Think its more like 7-8 over that much time. In more compressed timeframes (10 years), I know that some investments have hit 10%, but again, that’s unsustainable.

By maxmoose03

March 2, 2007 11:40 AM | Link to this

“75 times” -

I would say more than 50 years, but that multiple is correct. Major investment categories tend to be up 65 to 75 times since the end of WWII.

Let’s take that Levittown house as an example. 6K for GI’s returned from the war, let’s say in 1948. They should be up about 65 times in that period.

6K X 65 = 390K.

Right on the money.

Stocks did a little better.

The Dow Jones dropped from 211 to 163 in 1945.

Since then it is up about 75 times, or

163 X 75 = 12,225

Right on the nose, Buster. Dow is 12,217 at this moment.

The R/E investors actually did far better though, with 80% LTV mortgage notes typical — leveraging of 5 to 1.

You can look up the DJIA going back to WWII, as well as average house prices, so be a good fellow and don’t argue with me. This isn’t rocket science.

By cw1900

March 2, 2007 11:53 AM | Link to this

Mike Fink,

I totally agree with you on the leverage aspect. The more leverage, the more risk. Agreed. People do forget about the interest they are paying on the loan and the opportunity cost of that money you are paying on the interest. Agreed.

This whole argument of good RE market/bad RE market is really based on the screaming, vocal, highly leveraged who are in trouble just as you say. The loudest and the stupiest get the most press, no doubt. I’m not screaming because I am prudent enough to not leverage like that.

Tortoise and the hare, Mike, tortoise and the hare. Life is really easy to figure out if you slow down and do it right. The CPA’s and realtors saying leverage leverage leverage, they’re all full of crap.

Too many people thought they were Donald Trump and bought junk with no money down, interest only, garbage. Those people could not afford to buy, they knew it, and they bought anyway. The deserve to crash. I hope they crash fast and furious and get this mess over with. Maybe it will wake them up and they can learn from their mistakes.

I can, however tell you, you will never see 2002 or 2003 prices here again. It’s just not going to happen, Mike. Too many factors are telling otherwise. This will work itself out when the highly leveraged buyers of the past couple of years have fallen down for good and the smart money, waiting in the wings, start to swoop in and pick up the pieces. It always works this way.

History repeats itself, Mike.

cw

By maxmoose03

March 2, 2007 11:59 AM | Link to this

“75 times”: You are making yourself look like the lunatic, not me.

Anyone can look up the numbers and see I am right.

The future? I am not in the business of predicting the future. As they say on Wall Street, “Past performance is no guaranty of future results.”

But if you told me that performance is going to be the same in the future as in the past, then yes, you will have an astronomical figure in 50 years. I imagine our currency will change, since dollars will have so little value.

Manhattan was purchased for about $800 dollars.

The Louisiana Purchase in 1804 doubled the size of the United States, for $15 million ($23 million after interest paid). In other words, about a third of the U.S. was purchased at 3 cents per acre.

I don’t create history, 75, I can just read and do arithmetic.

You can apologize any time.

By More Good News for Max

March 2, 2007 12:08 PM | Link to this

IRVINE, Calif. (AP) — Standard Pacific Corp. said Thursday net new home orders for the first two months of the year fell 19 percent, hurt by weakness in Florida and Arizona, two of the markets hardest hit by the national housing slump. Standard Pacific used what it called aggressive pricing — most likely deep discounts or incentives — to wring a 40 percent increase in orders in California, another market where home prices have tanked and sales have slowed.

By To Max

March 2, 2007 12:09 PM | Link to this

Max, the house appreciate at roughly 7.3%. But if you take into account 3% inflation, the real appreciation in the house is a lot less.

That soldier would do better investing in the market. If he just invested in an index fund (if they had those then), and used some leverage he would still be better off. If he had competent professional help, he’d be much better off.

Again, for investment purposes r/e only works if you get positive cash flow.

In this market, though, you can’t get that with residential r/e. So for investment purposes, stocks are the way to go.

By cw1900

March 2, 2007 12:09 PM | Link to this

Mike Fink,

Large cap blue chips avg annualized return from 1926 - 1998 is 11.22%

That probably does not count for inflation, so probably an adjusted return of over 8% with inflation.

cw

By cw1900

March 2, 2007 12:31 PM | Link to this

One more…..

The tortoise and the hare since we’re on the subject of stocks……

If you doubt the legendary status of Buffett, consider this. If you had the foresight to invest $10,000 in 1956 with Warren Buffett when he first started his investment partnership, you would be worth today, after all fees, expenses and taxes, over $300 million.

I bought 5 shares of his B shares when they first came out around 1995 if I remember for around $12 or 1300 per share. That was alot of money for me in 1995. I still have those and never added or sold. I should have bought more, but whatever.

That’s a tortoise and the hare story. Remember all of the idiots back in 1998 making fun of Buffet because he wasn’t putting his money in tech stocks? He didn’t give a rat’s a*s what they thought.

The man is a freakin’ genius and he never owned pets.com or Tyco or whatever the story stock of the day was…..

cw

By maxmoose03

March 2, 2007 12:33 PM | Link to this

“30%” and “TO MAX”:

Inflation is inflation whether you call yourself a real estate investor, a stock market investor, Tom, Dick or Harry.

The S&P was up just about 14 and 1/2 % in the lackluster year of 2006, so no, you didn’t need an advisor to get about 15% return. The most common decision any stock market investor ever makes was sufficient. If you bought an S&P fund at the beginning of the year, you were done.

Your parent’s generation’s investments should have been up betweeen 65 and 75 times during their lifetime, without all the baloney.

R/E is considered the safer investment by conservative investors, because it is tangible, has inherent utility, and is simple. If you make a mistake with stocks, you are cooked. This has happened to me, and I’m usually not the dumbest Moose in the room.

In general the risk of the stock market makes for a bumpy ride. This week the DOW plunged once, wiping out billions or trillions of dollars of value, and I don’t think it’s done yet. There are traps everywhere. The buggy whip company in the original Dow Jones Index isn’t fairing too well these days. In fact, it closed about 90 years ago. Risk, volatility, I just don’t have the stomach for it.

In a good and growing area, progress in R/E is highly likely, and you never know when you may get lucky and catch an up-surge.

6 years ago the median SFH price for existing houses in PBC was about 138K.

Today it’s 388K.

You might have bought with a 14K investment - or maybe 0 investment.

Sorry guys, R/E is an investment miracle.

By MOOSEFACE

March 2, 2007 12:45 PM | Link to this

DAMN MOOSE, YOU HAVE ALOT OF HOUSES TO BUY. HOPE TO DONT GO UNDER WATER ANY TIME SOON.

“Some Realtors said buyers are still sitting on the fence, despite recent price drops. ‘People keep talking about the lack of supply of affordable housing, but they are not rushing toward the opportunity,’ said (broker) Randy Bianchi in West Palm Beach.”

“Hesitant buyers, and sellers who won’t lower prices, pushed the inventory of unsold homes between Boca Raton and Hobe Sound to 22,888 homes in January, according to Illustrated Properties Real Estate. That’s a 37 percent increase over January 2006.”

By maxmoose03

March 2, 2007 12:55 PM | Link to this

MOOSEFACE - You left out the part of the article about prices being up from 368,200 to 388,00 in one month — a 5.4% increase, BTW.

MOOSEFACE - any article you see I have already seen, and I know what you omitted in each case, so give it up already.

See if you can run out over lunchtime and buy a brain.

By cw sux

March 2, 2007 1:01 PM | Link to this

$60 bucks is alot of money for you in 1995? 5 shares at $12 a share?

You are the laughing stock CW. I’ll see you tonight at Ruths Chris or can you afford that?

By Carolina Gal

March 2, 2007 1:08 PM | Link to this

I see on the fron of the PBPost.com that they found 2 bodies shot in the Target parking lot in prestigious Boynton Beach. Right across the street from the new $400,000+ condos that are going up. Right?

Looks like even in the nice neighborhoods you can’t get away from that stuff in S. Florida anymore.

This is why everyone is moving out and no one is moving in.

Come on up to the Carolina.. Life is good.

By maxmoose03

March 2, 2007 1:11 PM | Link to this

CS SUX -

That was $1200 or $1300 a share.

Learn to read, you schmuck.

And BTW, I hardly think you would stand out as the most prosperous in the room at Ruth’s, so shut up.

And no, don’t come back telling us how Donald trump borrows money from you. You have aaready identified yourself as an idiot.

Now get to shop class.

By to carolina gal the white sheeted hooker

March 2, 2007 1:13 PM | Link to this

where is the racist comment from you today?

did you go to church and pray that jesus was white?

you couldn’t bear to pray to an idol with dark skin, now could you?

By maxmoose03

March 2, 2007 1:22 PM | Link to this

Carolina Girl (Rich R.) -

Actually No, it’s across the street from the garage being built for the Renaissance Commons office building.

And no, it’s not a good neighborhood.

But Hey - You have never been right about anything, why start now?

People are moving in at a rate which will makes us the 3rd largest state in a few years.

Crime rates are conspicuously lower than North carolina, and best of all — we are shipping all the white trash like you out to Georgia and NC.

Now remember, don’t choke when you are swallowing — it makes the client nervous.

By maxmoose03

March 2, 2007 1:35 PM | Link to this

WHoa - there it goes.

Dow down 100.

“TO MAX”?

“30%” Are you out there??

You picked a bad week and a bad day to be singing the praises of the stock market.

Th stock market is a perennial nightmare.

By 30%

March 2, 2007 2:03 PM | Link to this

A townhouse is selling in my neighborhood that is listing FSBO for 349k. The sad part is that the current owner purchased the place for 422k in early 06. If they put 20% down, they might not have to bring cash to the closing, if they sell it for near their asking price (which IMHO is very doubtful). This young couple, who are living in the place, will lose all of their equity.

Even with the stock tumble this week, how much better off would they have been if they took their 84k and put it into any index fund?

By Sam

March 2, 2007 2:34 PM | Link to this

Its clear that many on this board have taken a page from Dave Ramsey’s Total Money Makeover (how to live a debt free life). I wanted to post his name and the name of his book (you can also catch his show nightly on 1420 AM) for those who read this board that might be in trouble with debt. Get the book out of the library and “start living like no one else so you can live like no one else.”

By FL Renaissance

March 2, 2007 3:04 PM | Link to this

Against my better judgement I will provide you all with REAL numbers and not conjecture. As a kid just out of college, I bought my first 2500 sq. ft. 4BR ranch home in Northern CA in 1974.Purchase price was $46,000. I moved out 5 years later to a more prestigeous community called Blackhawk. I never sold my first house preferring to keep it as rental property; letting a tenant family pay off the mortgage. I finally did sell it recently in 2004 for $723,000 but I was asking $799,000 so according to some of you on this blog I took a tremendous loss! LOL! Anyway I’ll let Mike Fink do the math on my ROI (purchase was with 20% down; i.e. $10,000)Over the years I have done this over and over again..in desirable intn’l locations..and although there are more zeros after the numbs now the result remains the same. Those in the know, no I BS you not; the other stupids pay me rent!

By To FL Renaissance

March 2, 2007 3:17 PM | Link to this

So how many properties have you bought in the last few years in S. FL that you are renting out at a break even cash flow?

If you did buy any (which I doubt), did you finance any of them?

By Fl Renaissance

March 2, 2007 3:46 PM | Link to this

In S FL, Two (2) luxury homes direct from builder for cash, no debt. Without any debt service rent cover expenses. I will not provide any further info pertaining to my matters! If you can’t find bargains in this opportunistic market, then you are either of limited resources or very, very afraid and insecure.

By To FL Renaissance

March 2, 2007 4:12 PM | Link to this

Good for you that you have enough $ to buy homes outright.

What advice would you give to those just starting out in life? Would you buy now when renting is about 1/2 the cost of ownership?

Would you buy a rental property now if you had to take out a mortgage, for say 80% of the purchase price?

The thing I’ve noticed is that if you’ve been in this area for a while, you should have done well in the market.

For people just moving to this area or for younger workers who weren’t here during the boom, it just doesn’t seem to make much sense to buy now. By buying now there’s a real chance like you will end up like those people on my post above who are listing their home for less than they bought it.

By maxmoose03

March 2, 2007 5:40 PM | Link to this

30% / “TO FL REN”:

How do you know how much your neighbors put down on their townshouse? Maybe it was nothing. Maybe it was 5%.

It strikes me that - at a young age particularly, it would not make sense selling a property when letting it be foreclosed would cost them less.

What changed? They bought this property a year ago, they are living in it, why must they get out now?

Can you print the address, or at least the development and square footage?

Personally, I just don’t like to rent. Every dime you spend on rent is a waste, and it is a fully taxed dime, so it is really clOser to 13 cents or so.

If you have an unstable job, such as in IT, like Mike Fink, you may not be able to establish a home. But if you can, I would.

FL REN has done well, but my point of view is different from his. I use OPM - other people’s money. I try to get 100% financing or the quivalent. I want to feel that if I have to walk away from a property - let it be foreclosed, my interest in it should be zero.

There are plenty of deals around like that now. Cash givebacks, move in for $1

By maxmosoe03

March 2, 2007 6:07 PM | Link to this

30% -

If your story about your neighbors is true (and most of these stories I check out are not), hopefully they bought the way I prefer to - with little or nothing down. I want to feel that if I have to walk away from a property, I am losing nothing. BTW — another reason I leave little equity in properties. It has never happened to me yet, but I am not such a wise-a*s I think “It can’t happen to me.”

You don’t really know how much they put down - it may have been zero — and counting other people’s money is a fruitless endeavor.

So if you can commit to an area (hopefully you are not on a contract IT job or something), look for a nothing-down type deal. Two months ago the $1 move-in was all over the place. In Tampa this is frequently offered by Morisson Homes. I noticed some similar ones on the East Coast.

Look for cash incentives, high commissions to brokers — it is perfectly legal for a R/E broker to rebate commission to you if you are a party to the sale. Have any friends who are realtors? Ever though of getting your own license?

I am glad FL REN did well with his house after - my God, 34 years? - but I wouldn’t have left that equity hanging out there for an earthquake to come and knock down. I also would not have put down 100% for the local homes — 0% is more my style. In fact, being a broker, my attitude is the builder should pay ME for buying his house — and they do.

Finally, just let me remind you that real estate is always “too high.” No matter what property you look at, your Mommy, your g/f, your auto mechanic, is going to tell you it’s “too high.”

When I bought in Weat Boca for $142K in 1995, my God, it was too high. When I (stupidly) sold it in 2002 for 225K, it was too high. Now that it is worth close to 400K, guess what. the price is too high.

If the last 6 years had never happened, and the median price was still 138K instead of 388K, the last paragraph of your comment would not have been different by 1 letter. You would be saying:

“For people just moving to this area or for younger workers who weren’t here during the boom, it just doesn’t seem to make much sense to buy now. By buying now there’s a real chance like you will end up like those people on my post above who are listing their home for less than they bought it.”

By Dayton Ohio Blog is us

March 2, 2007 6:41 PM | Link to this

Why does the Dayton Ohio Daily News have this blog on their website? What for? Anybody know?

http://www.daytondailynews.com/o/content/shared-blogs/palmbeach/realestate/entries/2007/03/01/debtdebaterages_on.html#comments

By Dayton Ohio Blog is us

March 2, 2007 6:47 PM | Link to this

http://www.daytondailynews.com/o/content/shared-blogs/palmbeach/realestate/index.html

By maxmoose03

March 2, 2007 7:01 PM | Link to this

They got Dayton mixed up with Daytona — especially with all this talk about tires.

By FL Renaissance

March 2, 2007 7:51 PM | Link to this

To Maxmoose03: Just to clarify, the original 1974 home was releveraged over and over again many times over the 30 year period and each time the new tenants paid the earthquake, HO insurance and mortgage premiums while and the rising equity value was use to leverage many many more SFH rental properties around the US. Yes I STRONGLY I do believe in OPM but for now in the S FL market, I do better securing financing based on a hiher appraisal value AFTER the purchase. As a cash buyer with no contingencies I do get enough of an upfront discount to refinance it at a later time when I need to replenish the coffers and then I still have a positive cash flow. Remember I zig, they Zag. For someone just starting out now however, they should stop wasting their money on rent, leased cars and credit cards and find a bargain! Put 20% down and lock in a low FIXED rate loan and get into the game (in a quality location)BEFORE the masses do return…or else continue to rent and if I like you and your family, I’ll provide you with a hell of a good rental deal if you can satisfy my strict application process.

By maxmoose03

March 2, 2007 8:37 PM | Link to this

FL REN, you just couldn’t resist, could you, going prime time before the good people of Datyon. We have hit the big time, now, no doubt about it. Let me take this opportunity to say that the temperature in Dayton is 40, 81 in Boca Raton.

Otherwise, I’m with you, except for the part about 20% down. Our money is earned too dearly to risk it on a house. It’s the bank’s problem, if they are willing to underwrite it.

By FL Renaissance

March 2, 2007 11:05 PM | Link to this

Aloha Max, works well for me too. Bye for a while ,I’m off to Hawaiiland where the market is also SLOW but happily the only deviant result in that new buyers have much more of an available supply/selection to choose from but net realized pricing is rock solid and continues upward.

By mooseface and easydoespbc

March 2, 2007 11:11 PM | Link to this

keep lying to yourself.

who should we trust? moose or buffett?

“Subprime loans have attracted wide attention, and Thursday, Warren Buffett, chairman of Berkshire Hathaway, told shareholders that the slowdown in residential real-estate markets partly stems from weakened lending practices in recent years.”

“‘The ‘optional’ contracts and ‘teaser’ rates that have been popular have allowed borrowers to make payments in the early years of their mortgages that fall far short of covering normal interest costs,’ he said. ‘But payments not made add to principal, and borrowers who can’t afford normal monthly payments early on are hit later with above-normal monthly obligations.’”

“‘This is the Scarlett O’Hara scenario: ‘I’ll think about that tomorrow.’ For many home owners, ‘tomorrow’ has now arrived,’ Buffett wrote.”

MOOSE YOU ARE (TOASTY!)

By mooseface and easydoespbc

March 2, 2007 11:14 PM | Link to this

see the light?

bamm! too late!!!

“It’s Like A Freight Train Coming At Us Full Bore”

Some housing bubble news from Wall Street and Washington. “Standard Pacific Corp. said Thursday net new home orders for the first two months of the year fell 19 percent, hurt by weakness in Florida and Arizona, two of the markets hardest hit by the national housing slump. Standard Pacific used what it called aggressive pricing to wring a 40 percent increase in orders in California, another market where home prices have tanked and sales have slowed.”

From MarketWatch. “Countrywide Financial Corp. was the subject of a report in Friday’s Wall Street Journal that said the largest U.S. home mortgage lender saw a sharp increase in late payments in 2006.”

“The WSJ said the company disclosed in a filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission that payments were at least 30 days late at the end of 2006 on 2.9% of prime home-equity loans Countrywide serviced, up from 1.6% a year earlier. In addition, payments were late on 19% of subprime mortgage loans at 2006’s finish for Countrywide, up from 15.2% at the end of 2005, the paper said.”

The Orange County Register. “Troubles keep piling up for mortgage lender New Century of Irvine. Today it announced that its 2006 annual report will be late because it hasn’t yet been able to sort through the accounting errors it made in connection with bad loans. The company will ask the Securities and Exchange Commission for an extension.”

“New Century Financial said it cut 300 jobs on Thursday, or about 4 percent of its work force, including 124 positions in Irvine, as the shakeup continues in the subprime industry.”

“The company said it has not ruled out more job cuts. At least two analysts have said New Century could face a cash crunch if more than one investment bank stops funding and buying its loans.”

The Associated Press. “The cratering of the subprime mortgage industry could present more than just a pothole for General Motors Corp.”

“The world’s largest auto maker disclosed Thursday that it will need more time to file its 2006 annual report with the Securities and Exchange Commission, marking the second year in a row the company has postponed the key filing.”

“‘We continue to believe GM equity is complacent about the potential impact of such subprime exposure,’ Bear Stearns auto analyst Peter Nesvold wrote. He said the weakness at GMAC due to subprime problems is one of the key risks facing GM.”

“At the end of the third quarter, ResCap, long viewed as the crown jewel in GMAC’s businesses, held $57 billion of subprime mortgages for investment, or 77 percent of its total loans held for investment. Its exposure to ‘residual interest’ in mortgage securities, the high-yielding slices that suffer some of the first losses if loan defaults are higher than expected, was $1.4 billion as of Sept. 30.”

From Bloomberg. “Goldman Sachs Group Inc., Merrill Lynch & Co. and Morgan Stanley, which earned a record $24.5 billion in 2006, suddenly have become so speculative that their own traders are valuing the three biggest securities firms as barely more creditworthy than junk bonds.”

“‘These guys have made a lot of money securitizing mortgages over the years in a mortgage boom time,’ said analyst Richard Hofmann. ‘The question now is what is the exposure to credit risk and what are the potential revenue headwinds if they’re not able to keep that securitization machine humming along.’”

The Wall Street Journal. “The mortgage market has been roiled by a sharp increase in bad loans made to borrowers with weak credit. Now there are signs that the pain is spreading upward.”

“A record $400 billion of these midlevel loans, which are known in the industry as ‘Alt-A’ mortgages, were originated last year, up from $85 billion in 2003, according to a trade publication. Alt-A loans accounted for roughly 16% of mortgage originations last year and subprime loans an additional 24%.”

“Data from UBS AG show that the default rate for Alt-A mortgages has doubled in the past 14 months. ‘The credit deterioration has been almost parallel to what’s been happening in the subprime market,’ says UBS mortgage analyst David Liu.”

From Business Week. “Michael Youngblood, head of asset-backed securities research at Friedman, Billings, Ramsey Group, Va. points out that there was a sudden but little-noticed shift in lenders’ strategy that occurred at the end of 2005: Lenders went from competing for customers on price (by lowering rates) to competing for customers on easy terms (by lowering lending standards).”

“Says Youngblood: ‘The lack of overt changes in underwriting guidelines allowed the industry covertly to adjust its underwriting standards.’”

“‘You had two choices: relax your standards or lose business,’ says Robert Lacoursiere, a Banc of America Securities analyst. ‘It was a giant game of chicken.’”

“Youngblood is disgusted by the whole thing: ‘Basically the Keystone Kops were making loans,’ he says. ‘Or, to change the metaphor: Every time they see a sword they want to throw themselves on it.’”

The Christian Science Monitor. “‘Wall Street wanted the mortgage brokers to keep making loans even though they were riskier and riskier,’ says Ira Rheingold, executive director of the National Association of Consumer Advocates. ‘They didn’t care that … people were getting loans they couldn’t afford because there was so much money to be made.’”

“Housing advocates believe the regulators are reacting too late. ‘They’re good positive steps but it’s not close to being enough, the genie’s already out of the bottle,’ says Mr. Rheingold.”

From News 10. “Former employees of Folsom-based Central Pacific Mortgage are angry over the lack of warning before this week’s sudden layoffs. As News10 first reported Tuesday, Central Pacific Mortgage and its Florida-based division Ivanhoe Mortgage abruptly closed their doors Monday saying they had no money to meet Wednesday’s payroll.”

“Insiders say the collapse can be blamed on a combination of earlier loans that had gone sour and an inability to sell high-risk new loans on the secondary mortgage market.”

“A veteran Sacramento loan broker and past president of the California Association of Mortgage Brokers says the failure of Central Pacific Mortgage is just the ‘tip of the iceberg’ in the mortgage industry.”

“‘It’s like a freight train coming at us full bore,’ said Michael McGee of Winchester-McGee Financial. ‘The type of risk that’s been involved in the industry is far beyond anything I’ve ever seen.’”

“Federally-sponsored Freddie Mac, the second largest source of mortgage money in the United States, announced this week it would no longer purchase high-risk loans like those that helped push Central Pacific Mortgage into insolvency.”

“Central Pacific Mortgage CEO John Courson serves on the board of directors for the Mortgage Bankers Association. One of Courson’s former employees in the Northeast was sarcastic in an email message to News10.”

“‘I have two small children and now I have no money, no job and no health or dental benefits,’ wrote the former employee. ‘Let’s give a nice BIG HAND to the MAN for all of his major accomplishments.’”

The Idaho Statesman. “Boise Cascade’s 2006 earnings fell by more than 40 percent because of the downturn in the nation’s housing market.”

“Tom Stephens, Boise Cascade CEO, told investors there was an ‘unprecedented’ decline in the demand for building materials. ‘During the third quarter it really kicked in, and when it did, it kicked in big time,’ he said.”

By mooseface and easydoespbc

March 2, 2007 11:19 PM | Link to this

THE ULTIMATE “KOOLAID” MOMENT.

SEACREST, OUT!

“Equity-addicted homeowners have long hung on David Lereah’s every word. He’s also seen as a booster for the housing boom. With his latest book, ‘All Real Estate is Local,’ due out in April, Fortune’s Ellen Florian Kratz talked with Lereah about where the market is headed.”

“Q: Many think we still have a long way to go. A: If you look at local areas, that statement is true. California has a long way to go. I expect them to continue to experience pain all throughout this year. Southern Florida, same thing. Las Vegas is probably going to take a little longer to correct as well.”

“A quarter of the country is still feeling pain, and I can’t guarantee that it’s going to be over by the end of 2007 for some of those areas.”

“Q: So they could decline into 2008 or longer? A: They could. It’s hard to tell right now. The real key for some of these areas that are having problems is prices. Prices need to come down to bring buyers back to the market. And until they do, they’re going to experience drops in sales. California is experiencing some serious drops in sales - 30 percent drops in some places.”

“Q: So you don’t think California and Florida could bring the whole country down? A: They’ll bring themselves down. But will it bring the whole country down? No.”

“Q: What about the problems in the subprime market? A: I was giving a speech in Atlanta about two years ago. During the question and answer period, someone asked me something about interest-only loans. I said, they’re kind of dangerous and you have to be careful. Someone rose their hand and said, Did you know that in Atlanta, the percentage of interest-only loans in 2005 was 40 percent of the market? Atlanta didn’t even have a boom.”

“That’s when I knew we were in trouble.”

“Q: Will problems with subprime have any effect on your sales numbers? A: I think in some areas yes. Foreclosures are going to happen in California.”

“You may see a rise in Las Vegas or Phoenix or Washington DC and parts of Florida, but it’s not all over the country. The big problem right now is borrowers with a loan balance that may be greater than the value of their home. They have no incentive to make the mortgage payment. They’ll say, I don’t need it, take it. That’s going to occur in some of the real unaffordable areas, like San Diego and San Jose.”

“Q: What surprised you about the boom? A: The share of second home buying. It was 40 percent of the market in 2005. I was in shock. When you have a lot of second home buying, that’s volatile, whereas when people buy a primary residence, they’re buying it to live in.”

“I never anticipated that type of market share in second home buying. That proved to be the end of the boom.”

By mooseface and easydoespbc

March 2, 2007 11:42 PM | Link to this

The truth about mooseface and the rest of the poledancing real estate cheerleaders is that they just lie to make you look like a fool. There’s a fire and they say it is rain. They say you will never lose in real estate and prices drop, inventory is high and just pay 300 for year, 400 in year 2 and then 1200 that you cant even afford for 28 and no job in south florida will pay you anything worth affording a 400,000 home. Housing became a game for mice looking for cheese. You can put any kind of cheese in the trap and they will eat the poison. Just suck it up and take this beatdown like a locust. Just crushed you under my shoe. Then the best part is that your house is going up in value 100% for 5 years and the government actually tax you at the real rate of the value (2-3%) and you b***h so hard that the elephants will rather you pay them by sales, (debtor society pays for anything to look good) and lose all the money in property taxes. Great, now everyone can go into debt owning a shack that cant handle a cat 2 hurricane, more money for the insurance carpetbaggers, and more sales tax money for repairing your hut every year. Who loses, the poor who don’t own. Who wins, the developer and real estate hoes. Moose is that elephant in the door that can even finance dead men walking from iraq and make them live among the rats and roaches. Sickos, to me. Hate to be you.

p.s. in florida, you don’t have an income tax and you b***h about tax burdens?

That is why shaq and tiger moved to florida.

If I am the insurance company, you don’t pay me enough on your 600,000 plaster walls to insure you. And, remember Katrina. Better get flood insurance. Moose, you are not a native so be careful and buy flood insurance + wind.

Can you say, 1 dollar!

Loser!!!

By Forest Gump

March 3, 2007 12:05 AM | Link to this

Momma always told me to avoid the rantings of a bitter and frustrated loser. Get an education, make some cash and better yourself you drooling cracker.

By 30%

March 3, 2007 12:41 AM | Link to this

I’d rathe not give the address on the property above, but its in 33458. I looked up the public records and it looks like they have 2 mortgages, one for about 80% of the purcahse price and one for 20%. Neither are a HELOC.

I have a financing question. If you are foreclosed on and the bank does not make all of their money back, is the owner on the hook for the remainder? The owner probably can’t pay and its not worth the bank’s time or money to go after an owner, but that has to be pretty devestating to your credit.

By maxmoose03

March 3, 2007 12:44 AM | Link to this

Mooseace: You are a ranting lunatic. First you paste about 30 paragraphs of b******t that no one has any interest in, then you follow it up with desultory rambling.

You said you look like a fool, and you got that right, but it is not because I lie.

There is a good reason even you know you look like a fool. The reason is, you’re a fool.

I don’t say you can’t lose in real estate. In fact, I think people of very limited capabilities, like you, are very likely to lose in real estate — or any other endeavor.

You have to accept that for people like you, life holds limited possibilities. You don’t have a nice enough personality to be a greeter at Wal-Mart. Perhaps you could work at the Post Office, until you flip your lid and start shooting.

Here’s my basic message, so tell us which statements are lies.

1) FAR reports that the median price for an existing SFH in PBC county was 388K in January. In December it was 368,200. FAR pointed out that this is down 1% YOY from January 2006. This represents a 5.4% rise from December.

Lie? Or no lie?

1. This newspaper reported a 42% drop in foreclosures in PBC in January, YOY.

Lie? Or no lie?

1. Readers can get on Bankrate.com and see for themselves if mortgage rates in South Florida are rising or falling.

Lie? Or no lie?

1. Jeff Ostrow has made a point of commenting on the thriving commercial real estate market, and rising prices.

Lie? Or no lie?

That’s about it, Nitwit.

You tell me where the lies are. If you can’t induce people to read articles about the sub-prime mortgage market in California, it is probably beause they are not insane like you, not because of some lie I told.

So please, get yourself some professional help, stop filling the column with crap, and stop calling people liars based on your sickness.

By maxmoose03

March 3, 2007 1:18 AM | Link to this

Pardon my numbering system above, I borrowed it from Mooseface’s accountant (I am sure he counts this as a “lie”).

Mr. 30% -

These mortgage questions are definitely the kind we all need to ask an attorney about, but I am willing to share my general impressions, which are not meant as legal advice.

What it says in your mortgage is going to have a lot to do with it. If your contract has an “exculpatory” clause this limits the lender from seeking recovery beyond the collateral itself.

In practical terms, while the lender may not want to be in the real estate business, he may not be terribly adverse to getting hold of a rising asset. Hence, if he acts to get possession of the property at courthouse auction, that may affect his standing to pursue the defendant any further — but again — it’s a question for an attorney. Anyone out there?

My sense is that a foreclosure — or even giving a house back to the lender, will get your score down under 500 in a hurry, but if you’re a good boy you are liable to be able to re-establish your credit in a few years.

By maxmoose03

March 3, 2007 1:44 AM | Link to this

A MESSAGE TO ALL THE IDIOTS

Some of the idiots, like “Mooseface,” accuse me of encouraging everyone to be involved in buying real estate. This is not the case.

As regards Mooseface and the rest of his ilk, I should expect they will lose their shirts in real estate, or any other business venture. I would further not encourage them to seek higher education nor spiritual enlightenment; I would also hope that they would not participate in general elections nor bring children into the world.

It is only to those of you who have at least minimal competency in transacting your affairs, and some idea of what your goals are, that buying property offers potential advantages, and then not without risk of some sort.

By cw1900

March 3, 2007 9:20 AM | Link to this

a few quick things here….

To “mooseface and easydoespbc”, Are you one of our newest readers from Dayton, Ohio? You said, “p.s. in florida, you don’t have an income tax and you b*h about tax burdens?” Yes, you are one of our newest Dayton people. Why are we on in Dayton?

Nonetheless, you are out of your mind. Clear case of nut, and BTW, you need to get laid. Friday night at 1130pm and here you are ranting about us in sunny, beautiful south Florida, while you are ranting and spanking in where, Dayton?!? Why are we on in Dayton again? Jeff, please tell us. I know we’re good, but Jeff, you need to start paying us if we must be read elsewhere and if we are to expected to put up with Friday night spankers like “mooseface and easydoespbc”.

“Who loses, the poor who don’t own. Who wins, the developer and real estate hoes.” Yep, you said it. You lose, big boy.

FL Ren: Good posts. You are the man! I aspire to your greatness in the RE ownership world someday.

Max: Stop wasting your time with those nuts. You’ll live longer. They are clearly out of their minds. Let them go.

Sam: Yes, you got my attention when you talk about the debt problem (It’s about the only thing Mike Fink and I agree on). I did a wikipedia search on your Dave Ramsay guy. This guy seems right up my alley. Never heard of him, though. If he’s on the holy roller stations, sorry man, not my gig, but he seems very cool to me. I listen to 98.7 gater, 103.1 buzz, the occassional Jim Rome, and the occassional amusement of listening to the pandering mortgage brokers and realtors on the pay for airtime radio stations in the morning on my way to the office. So, what you are saying is, “cw1900 was Dave Ramsay before Dave Ramsay was cool”, hahahaha! Good post Sam. Love it, buddy.

Did anyone read the article this morning in the Post on PGA National? Hey doomers, it looks like the world is coming to an end there, right? Wrong.

I’m off to drop off the kids at their Sat morning gigs, and me, well, I’m off to Home Depot to spend money on one of the rentals. I had to throw that in to rile up the doomers. Cmon doomers, tell me I’m losing. Cmon guy in the $300 shorts (remember that freak), tell me I should’nt be wasting my time fixing something at one of the rentals. Tell me I should pay somebody to do it. Problem with you, $300 shorts guy, is that your pretty hands haven’t seen any work, and therefore, look like like my wife’s hands, smooth and pretty. FL Ren, tell $300 shorts guy it’s ok to do a little physical work every now and then.

Max, the wife has the Volvo today. I’ve got the Explorer. If anyone wants to see me, I’ll be at Jupiter Home Depot within the hour!!! That place takes too much of my money, and I’m cheap, remember, you doomers?

Relax, you doomers, when we’re all done, I’m going to the beach with the kids and watch all the white bellies from Dayton, Ohio!

Sorry, Dayton, we love you too. Welcome to our world.

cw

By moneytobemade

March 3, 2007 11:11 AM | Link to this

always money to be made in any mkt if very careful. The amazing thing in SoFl is the huge number of properties at what anywhere else would be snapped up.(3-400K rng). There is something out of whack in a mkt where this number of fairly nice properties languishes despite multiple price “adjustments”. Perhaps the two tier RE tax has annoyed too many potential buyes from outside Fl. I wonder if the amount collected from this system is worth the adverse publicity and possible effect on RE sales ? (We all have seen articles on this in pubs ranging from WSJ to NYT, so has rest of world)

Anyone have numbers on how much collected ? We may have shot ourselves in the foot just to let pols pander to masses envious of wealth again.

If locals can’t/won’t buy is what is holding back sales, shouldn’t we get back to attracting those who can/will buy ?

By maxmoose03

March 3, 2007 12:11 PM | Link to this

Morning, CW. A little humor to start the day? I don’t know where you get your energy.

The Volvo is a good choice for the wife, IMHO. Despite all the hype, good safety record and mechanically reliable.

I spend my life in Lowe’s and Home Depot, but finally got my money back from Home Depot when I was landlord for one of the founder’s extended family. Another perk of landlording.

So how about that? We are on the air in Dayton and who knows where else. Since you probably did not know that Dayton is 42% black, CW, I will mention that darkly-complected bellies are equally welcome. In fact, a stroll on our beautiful beaches will reveal a rainbow of people, with many of those of the female persuasion being quite easy on the eyes.

Enjoy your weekend CW.

Money2B — Probably the absence of corporate opportunities keeps prices low here. You are sophisticated enough to know how ridiculously cheap houses are here vs. cities with corporate structure and management talent.

Have a good weekend.

By Bob in Kettering

March 3, 2007 3:54 PM | Link to this

I hope somebody blows sand in cw’s face at your beach. It’s 28 degrees and snowing here in Kettering, Ohio. The greater Dayton area is a fun place.

We went to dinner and a movie last night, and tonite off to a basketball game. You have a beach and some good weather, but it’s not so bad in Dayton. I’m not sure why this blog is here, but some of you ought to come up here and live like real Americans do. We work in real America and live a clean life, unlike some of you hedonistic people down in Florida.

Bob in Kettering

By maxoose03

March 3, 2007 4:58 PM | Link to this

Bob, I’m curious as to what makes you a “real” American.

My friends from Miami, who are serving in Iraq right now, are going to be diappointed they are not real Americans.

My colleagues in Lakeland are going to be disappointed, Bible-thumpers that they are, that they are not leading a clean life.

Down here, we were under the impression that we are real Americans no matter where out ancestors were born — kind of like people in Ohio, Bob.

And we were under the inmpression that the Constitution and the Bill of Rights gave us the ability to dertermine what clean living is for us.

And has for that hedonism, right now it is 90 degrees in Boca Raton, with 43% humidity. Round about September, it’s pretty hot. And humid. And men and women alike shed as much clothing as they can manage to practically. We are grown-ups about it, Bob, it’s hot out there.

But I will say this about Hedonism. If I walk into a bar looking to escort a young lady to my home, and in the bar is a Cuban girl from a strict Catholic famnily, a Jewish girl from NYC, and a corn-fed Ohio farm girl, guess who I am going to be able to bring home for the price of a few drinks.

HINT: IT’s the ‘real’ Amreican. Maybe your daughter.

By maxmoose03

March 3, 2007 5:10 PM | Link to this

Pardon me for all the typing errors folks, I think the Florida sun is making me dyslexic.

There is more and more dyslexia going around. My dog is dyslexic - - he thinks he is a god.

The other day a dyslexic cop tried to stop me and give me an IUD.

If you are sure you are not dyslexic, sd errejk sidi eikj k, sj f ufu9so e, e r io fd etiom.

Anyway, let’s hear it for those mid-Western girls. They’ll do ANYTHING.

By Steve

March 3, 2007 6:21 PM | Link to this

Moose,

There is alot of bad press on RE lately. Maybe you should pretend you’re a seventeen year old eager to buy houses again? Might turn the tide.

By maxmoose03

March 3, 2007 6:41 PM | Link to this

Steve -

There is a lot of bad press on Steve lately. It seems that people think you are an idiot. How unfortunate that they are correct.

How long did it take you to come up with that magnum opus above, Steve? All Saturday afternoon?

Maybe you should pretend you graduated the third grade? Might get you a job.

By Nazi Hunter

March 3, 2007 6:54 PM | Link to this

I have nothing against the good Americans who suffer the weather in the Heartland but the fact is that there are more direct decendants of the original German National Socialist Party living in the State of Ohio, then in any other U.S. state of the union. Does that make the good folks more American then in Florida???No, just a hell of a lot colder!

By Steve

March 3, 2007 6:55 PM | Link to this

That hurts Moose.

By Steve

March 3, 2007 7:00 PM | Link to this

I was just trying to help you out. You, Cw, and Fl ren. all seem like old guys in the twilight of their lives bragging about pennies saved. Kind of sad, I guess you don’t need my help.

By maxmoose03

March 3, 2007 7:03 PM | Link to this

You want pain, Steve?

Look in the mirror.

By Forest Gump

March 3, 2007 8:30 PM | Link to this

Momma always told me to avoid talking to bad nasty people who are not worldly and unwashed, I may be slow buit I do read. I suggest young slow Steve obtain a library card, sign his X and try to read about successful others who set goals for themselves. Try “Rich Dad, Poor Dad” or The Millionaire Next Door” …instead of “Inside Vince McMahons’Worldwide WrestlingFederation.

By Steve

March 3, 2007 9:15 PM | Link to this

I thought momma always said, “life was like a box of chocolates.”

By SirPercy

March 3, 2007 11:08 PM | Link to this

Max: Thanks for replying to my earlier question- (your reply: Sir Percy, I wrote you a lengthy reply the other day, I hope you saw it….

I DID, THANKS!

You continued: I have not seen any particular relationship between lower prices and increased sales….

You are correct: I refinanced and so I am in hot, not boiling, water, and cannot do a seller finance.

Anyway, the more stories I read, the more I think I should just take down the sign/listing! :(

I don’t understand a lot of the lingo you used re: financing but I do know there are creative financing solutions.

I have fingers crossed the pols in Tally are going to actually find a solution to current housing crisis, but I’m not taking any bets. :)

By gettingclose

March 3, 2007 11:46 PM | Link to this

Many sellers prices now moving nearer what they paid. Some obvious flippers must be getting cranky about now, finding out what the term paper profits means.

a few :

194448 Carolina paid 330K 5/05, now priced 385K.

825 Gazetta Way paid 460K 11/05, now priced 499K (this one also sold 4/05 351K)

6201 Adriatic paid 368K 10/06, now priced 409K.

If these do sell at new asking prices, not much gain after ALL expenses, time, and aggravation accounted for. Sadly, (depending on your perspective) they don’t have much of a chance of getting these prices. Too many others competing for fewer buyers, who know they are in the drivers seat.

What a role reversal in just a year.

If something doesn’t materialize with RE taxes and insurance mess this year SOME folk are going to have to dump at very low prices.

One big storm and it is going to be really interesting.

With size of inventory, unless someone really loves a place and is going to live in it, buying now does not seem like smart move.

June is just around the corner.Lets see what Momma Nature brings this time around.

By 4clo

March 4, 2007 12:42 AM | Link to this

“When the big real estate boom was at its height about three years ago, Bryan said his mortgage foreclosure cases dropped off.

“We kind of got spoiled then,” Bryan said. “Back then, most people were able to sell their property, and they could get substantially more than their mortgage and pay it off. That worked wonderfully well for a while. Now people go to try to sell, and it’s a big problem.”

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/localnews/content/localnews/epaper/2007/03/04/m1aSLCLERK_0304.html

“In Palm Beach County, as foreclosure rates soared, Chief Judge Kathleen Kroll also became overwhelmed. She usually hears cases as a part-time duty folded into her many others.

Kroll said she fell farther and farther behind in January and asked another judge with a relatively lighter load to take over hearing the cases”

By Student

March 4, 2007 1:46 AM | Link to this

Ok, look I’m back. You grownups are fools, you should be buying everything in sight. Don’t listen to Steve, he always forgets the difference between your and you’re. He’s a schmuck.

By maxmoose03

March 4, 2007 3:04 AM | Link to this

The usual b******t from people who would like you to believe their predictions are facts.

gettingclose - You don’t know what these places will sell for. In the meantime, right NOW there are 11 pages of current REAL sales on this website. Why don’t you look at them and tell us how many are NOT making money?

By the way, there is no such address as your first example and your third example is an empty lot.

Schmuck.

Let’s hope you’ll be gettinglost soon.

4clown - This same paper also reported that foreclosures fell 42% YOY in Palm Beach County in January. I don’t really give a hoot what happens in Port St. Lucy, which is not a real city, but an invention on the part of developers.

As far as I am concerned, Port St. Lucy has no business being on the map, and if it is, whoever buys there deserves what they get (except the cancer from water pollution which was killing area children).

By chow ping

March 4, 2007 9:08 AM | Link to this

chow ping busy. chow ping go to church, want to pray for cadillac VXR. bibled in english!

boo hao. boo neng doo soo.

so chow ping say, no have bible in chinese? say, no bible is english. chow ping say stupid, chinese over 5000 year old, english 1000 year old, which you think god talk first? you think god only 1000 year? stupid.

no one offer buy chow ping car? chow ping your spiritual guide. you buy chow ping car, you get religion fast. chow ping give. hee hee.

By 19448

March 4, 2007 10:27 AM | Link to this

Carolina add. s/b 19448. Sold 4/2004 for 233K, then in May 05 sold for 330K, now unable to sell at 385K. http://www.co.palm-beach.fl.us/papa/aspx/web/detailinfo.aspx?pentity=00424707050090220&geonav=Y&styp=general&owner=&city=&zip=&method=address&cidx=&sdiv=&sdivnam=&stno=&pdir=&st=Carolina&strnm=&sufx=&ptdir=&cty=&rng=&twp=&sct=&blk=&lot=&book=&page=&tangid=&condo=&condoname=&use=&usnam=&sloc=&prd=&pedir=&podir=&famt=&tamt=&fsqft=&tsqft=&srt1=&srt2=&srt3=&stpage=0&adlfilter=

Props. like these show musical chair game that was going on. Seller in May 05 did OK unless, as most newbie flippers, bought more props. with new money. May be stuck now just like a lot of the others.

As someone else said - relax max, its only money. You seem too ego wrapped in RE to face reality. Some sales are going on, always will. The incredible number of unsold is there. Taxes and Insurance drags on mkt are real. Accept it. Adjust. Grow up. Rejoin real world.

By Mike Fink

March 4, 2007 11:33 AM | Link to this

Mayor wants the property appraiser to raise the assesments on new condo buildings:

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/business/content/business/epaper/2007/03/04/a1fcloughcol0304.html

Great idea. Kind of like what the morgage/banks were doing. Let’s book all this unpaid interest as earnings!

You can’t collect taxes on something that is not there. I guess you can try to collect taxes on something that is 1/2 way there…

I can’t believe, with all the outcry over taxes, that anyone would even TRY to push a case like this into court. The negative PR would seem to make it a no-win immediately, even if you do win?

By Domino

March 4, 2007 12:11 PM | Link to this

Looks like Fremont General Credit Corporation going down monday.

By maxmoose03

March 4, 2007 12:23 PM | Link to this

19448 -

Sorry, if “rejoining the real world” means being a loser like you, having to go to a stupid job every day like you do, counting other people’s money — a particularly moronic, futile and reprehensible practice — like you do, making silly prognostications in public only to fall flat on your face, like you do, and violating the privacy of my neighbors like you do — I think I’ll stay in my relaxed and prosperous “unreal” world, if that’s OK with you.

What happened to the 50% to 70% price declines you predicted for month and and months? Or have they been put off till net month?

Don’t you realize you aren’t just a loser? You’re the quintessence of loser; if I want to see what you look like I will look up “loser” in the dictionary.

And to make matters worse, you insist on putting your stupidity and misfortune on display, for everyone to see.

Whatever your problems are, I don’t share them, and 95% of the people in this county don’t share them.

SO take your list of b******t to you psychiatrist, your accountant, your priest, rabbi or momma; or just shove it up your a*s.

Now if you’ll excuse me, the novia and I have a very tough morning of deciding where to fly off to for a break.

You will be here spying on your neighboors’ finances.

Schmuck.

Hurry up - Sunday is when the high school lads have their circle jerk / internet party — you’ll fit right in.

By mooseface and now gump

March 4, 2007 12:43 PM | Link to this

moose be a man and stop posting *

then you talk about being a american. maybe it is you looking at that moose face and wondering why i dont have a life.

forest gump, i will give you just one bar.

BUFFETT OR MOOSE, YOU DECIDE!

The Palm Beach Post. “For months, a ceaseless routine has gripped the St. Lucie clerk of court’s civil office: New mortgage foreclosure lawsuits arrive in unprecedented numbers - huge stacks, some a foot or 2 tall. But as soon as one stack is processed and emptied from the in-box, another dozen or more foreclosures show up the next day.”

“On really busy mornings, process servers drop off banks’ boxes filled with these documents, which set into motion a process that often means homeowners who haven’t paid their mortgages will lose their homes.”

“As 2006 unfolded, the number of new St. Lucie mortgage foreclosure filings surged upward, culminating in a yearly total of 1,329 cases. That’s a more than a 170 percent increase from 2005’s total of 485 cases, according to the clerk’s office.”

“Take this snapshot: On Wednesday, the last day of February, the St. Lucie clerk’s office received 30 new foreclosure cases. That single day accounted for more cases than the office received in the entire month of October in 2004, according to the office’s records.”

“‘In all the years I’ve done this, I’ve never seen this many foreclosures,’ said Nancy Bennett, supervisor of St. Lucie’s circuit civil clerks division, who has worked in the office for more than 20 years. ‘It has never been like this.’”

“‘Most are just frustrated because they thought their home was worth something more,’ St. Lucie Circuit Judge Ben said.”

MOOSE, CRUNCH THEM NUMBERS, LOSER! OR BETTER YET EXPLAIN YOURSELF TO SAINT LUCIE COUNTY!

forest gump, enough said.

By maxmoose03

March 4, 2007 12:53 PM | Link to this

GRUMP - This same paper also reported that foreclosures fell 42% YOY in Palm Beach County in January. I don’t really give a hoot what happens in Port St. Lucie, which is not a real city, but an invention on the part of developers.

As far as I am concerned, Port St. Lucie has no business being on the map, and if it is, whoever buys there deserves what they get (except the cancer from water pollution which was killing area children).

Beyond that, let’s review:

Max makes money.

Grump does not make money, no matter how hard he works.

Max has great life internationally.

Grump lives in nightmare in Lantana, or someplace equally horrible.

SO who is the loser? We’ll let the audience decide.

By audience

March 4, 2007 2:27 PM | Link to this

loser would be - whoever stoops to personal attacks and self-aggrandizement.

By Jim my fake name

March 4, 2007 2:38 PM | Link to this

I’ve had it.

Where can I move to, still be a nice area, and have no HOA. I’m in Evergene currently and can’t take the BS. Problem is, too many homes for sale here in development, but am making plans now when I do put it on market and get out. I’d like some suggestions and do not want to be south of PGA Blvd and would rather not go as far as Stuart.

Any ideas?

Side note. Your discussion on too much debt and out of control families spending more than they make, you need to do a case study here in Evergrene. I’ve never seen so many households trying to play keep up with their neighbors. It’s disgusting, fake, and totally out of control. You would have an ample study group, lol.

Jim

By maxmoose03

March 4, 2007 2:41 PM | Link to this

More likely whoever has to disguise his identity and use subtrefuge to advocate his own pathetic position. I knew you would come through for me :-)

By Jim

March 4, 2007 2:50 PM | Link to this

maxmoose03,

No, I’m serious. I’m not the other people you have been posting to today.

This is my first post ever, but I read quite often.

I’m looking for advice on where to go in the area I want to live and not have an HOA.

I do not like to live under police state law.

The craziness of the neighbors in Evergrene is amply described. Ask around. No BS here.

Jim

By ABCMax

March 4, 2007 3:48 PM | Link to this

COMING SOON TO AN INVESTOR NEAR YOU IN PALM BEACH COUNTY!! Deeds in lieu of foreclosure! Fun for flippers!

STERLING HEIGHTS — Alan and Alyson Wirgau live in a cute ranch on a quiet suburban street next to an award-winning school. There’s a new roof above their heads, a new deck in back and a For Sale By Owner sign in front.

Instead of weighing offers, the family is weighing an option that seemed unthinkable a year ago: If they don’t sell their home soon, they may turn down the heat, load their possessions in a U-Haul and drive away.

With a job in Indianapolis and dim prospects for selling their home, the Wirgaus are considering handing the keys back to the bank and walking away from their home.

They are among a growing number of Michigan families asking lenders to take their homes off their hands. That trend, paralleling a rapid rise in foreclosures, illustrates the desperation some families feel as home values fall below their mortgage debt.

That process, called a deed in lieu of foreclosure, is an agreement to give up all ownership rights in a home or piece of property to the lender.

It’s not a good option for anyone, but it’s often better than the alternative. Homeowners’ credit ratings are hurt, but not as much as in a foreclosure; the lenders lose money on homes now worth less than the outstanding loan, but lose less than the cost of a foreclosure proceeding.

No offers at break-even price

Two years ago the Wirgau family’s 1,500-square-foot home was valued at $210,000. Today, it’s for sale at $180,000 — just enough to pay the mortgage and the closing costs.

No one has made an offer in the three months it’s been on the market. At the full asking price, “we’d just break even, and I’d bend down and kiss their (the buyers’) feet,” Alyson Wirgau said.

For five months, Alan Wirgau has been commuting to a new job in Indianapolis, where he lives in a $400-a-month studio apartment during the week. He drives back to Michigan on Friday night and leaves early Monday morning for Indiana.

“I just put a new set of tires on my car,” Alan Wirgau said. “At some point, you have to ask, ‘Where do we draw the line?’ ”

It’s better for everyone if the Wirgaus can sell their home. But if they don’t, they’re good candidates for a deed in lieu of foreclosure. They aren’t behind on their mortgage payments, their home is worth close to the amount still owed, and the home is in good shape.

Lenders who frowned on such deals as well as short sales (accepting less than the loan amount for the sale of a home) now are routinely agreeing to both. For lenders, the choice often is between losing a little money now or a lot of money later.

A foreclosure can cost a lender thousands of dollars and can take a year. The homes often are not well-maintained during that period, costing the lender more money for repairs.

“The banks don’t know what they’re going to get back,” Howard said. “If people are willing to hand the house over, then it’s less likely the bank will get possession of a house that is completely trashed.”

By agreeing to a deed-in-lieu or a short sale, the lender “gets possession quicker,” said Michael Kus, spokesman for the Michigan Association of Community Banks. “Instead of waiting the redemption period (of a foreclosure proceeding, which can take six-12 months), you can get it marketed quicker.”

And with home prices continuing to fall, the sooner a lender can sell the distressed house, the less money the lender loses, Kus said.

“It’s the busiest department in the banks now, short sales and deeds in lieu,” Howard said. “They have people devoted to it.”

By Easyas123

March 4, 2007 4:04 PM | Link to this

Blue Chips? Buffett? Ahh..the perfect snack. Nothing like blue chips and salsa while listening to some Jimmy Buffet.

Ahhhh the life of a ‘have not’. Last night was quite pleasant in Paradise, as me and my date walked 3 minutes east to the Intra Coastal to watch the Lunar Eclipse.

Then, back to my place for the dinner I made for us. She brought over the wine. After a nice dinner, we walked to City Place (about 100 paces)and enjoyed the free live entertainment. When we got thirsty, no need to purchase drinks for tourist-gouging prices at City Place. We simply walked back to my place for more wine, and then watched a video.

Cost of observing lunar eclipse. $0

Cost of homecooked dinner ingredientes. appx $5.00

Cost of wine, and video. $0 (she brought the wine, and the video was free from the WPB library)

Money spent at City Place. $0

Satisfaction that comes from living downtown and enjoying the City Place/paradise lifestyle for a third of the cost of owning?

PRICELESS!!!

Being a ‘have not’ isn’t half bad!

By John

March 4, 2007 4:14 PM | Link to this

And knowing that the real estate market is in the midst of a massive correction…. PRICELESS!!!!!!!

By john is a steve is a flustered up meat flubber in ohio

March 4, 2007 4:56 PM | Link to this

john is a steve is a flustered up meat flubber in ohio

By Evergrene leaver

March 4, 2007 5:21 PM | Link to this

My husband and I left Evergrene 6 months ago. Our lease was up and we left for downtown WPB.

The people we met there were rude and mostly only cared about labels on clothes and purses, and the type of car you drove.

We suspected many people we knew there were living a fantasy.

It is exactly what Jim desribed. Yikes.

If you like plastic people, by all means, move to Evergrene. Not me, no no.

By maxmoose03

March 4, 2007 6:24 PM | Link to this

Jim -

If you figure it out, buddy, tell me. You have to deal not only with the HOA lunatics, but with municipaltites such as the City of Boca. These people are nuttier than fruitcakes.

If you ever buy in the City of Boca, HOA or no, God help you if you ever have to change a door or window on your home, or - heaven forbid - have to chop down a tree that is about to fall on your house. I literally had to watch a tree go through my roof last hurricane, because I could not get a decision from the City of Boca allowing me to remove it.

With the trend heavily toward moving back East now (no, I am not going to debate this with the idiots), Boca is really feeling its Wheaties, and charging special assessments downtown for invisible “improvements.” If you want to do anything in your house beyond turn your TV on, you need a permit;. If you want a “paperwork only” office in your home — which no one can come to for transacting business — you are supposed to get a permit.

I wish I had a tape of the functionary in City Hall proudly explainging to me that “If you want to change a window or put up a 10 story building, it’s the same application process.”

So Jim, if you find a non-HOA nice area where you can stay East and stay away from lunatic organizations like the City of Boca Raton, PLEASE post it here.

By to Jim

March 4, 2007 6:57 PM | Link to this

No question about it. I would go to either Palm Beach Country Estates or Jupiter Farms.

It meets all your requirements and both are growth areas for the long haul.

By Don

March 4, 2007 7:03 PM | Link to this

Watch out for the flood zones in those areas.

By maxmoose03

March 4, 2007 7:06 PM | Link to this

ABCMax:

I think deed in lieu of foreclosure is a wonderful idea for homeowners in a fix. Maybe that’s why I wrote about it March 3, 1:18 AM, scroll up.

Thank you, at any rate, for proving my point that giving a house back to the bank is not the end of the world. It does not require the terror and panic that seems to surround it.

Apart form that, hopefully, some idiot in Michigan is putting up articles about our Florida insurance rates, or whatever is as irrelevant to them as your article is to us.

By to Don

March 4, 2007 7:11 PM | Link to this

Yes, but flood zones are easy to find with knowledgable people and good reseach.

Nonetheless, not much of an issue on most homes built in last 15 years, and of course, no issue if building.

I agree with “to Jim” that those areas definitely meet that person requirements.

By maxmoose03

March 4, 2007 7:20 PM | Link to this

Having lunch in Max’s grill with the attorney you saw on TV last night, and having his office insist on picking up the check….$0.00

Playing chess with a former rock star in a 3.5 million condo on the Intracoastal….$0.00

Getting a big hug and kiss from your young tenant, a noted fashion model, when you go to pick up the rent….$0.00

Meeting national political leaders and getting photographed with them, along with major TV stars…..(okay, this one costs)

Knowing people like Easyas123 are part of a permanent underclass, who will prepare your meals, work on your house, mow your lawn, fix your car, and then pay a disproportionate amount of their wages right back to you as rent….PRICELESS :-)

By John

March 4, 2007 7:42 PM | Link to this

No one cares Max you low life.

By maxmoose03

March 4, 2007 7:50 PM | Link to this

Why bother to write, then, John?

By the way - how is your girlfriend’s vacant townhouse in Firenze doing? Are you putting together that deed in lieu of foreclosure?

By mooseface

March 4, 2007 8:31 PM | Link to this

Even though he only made $25,000 a year, a lender said his family could get him in a new home worth $225,000.”

moose got hit by a train.

By mooseface is a

March 4, 2007 8:40 PM | Link to this

closet dayton wacker

By maxmoose03

March 4, 2007 8:41 PM | Link to this

mooseface -

I like it when you guys lose it and start rambling. No one (including me) has any clue what you are talking about.

Let’s keep it that way.

By Mike Fink

March 4, 2007 9:31 PM | Link to this

I can definately concur with some of the Evergrene comments on here.

First off, I really do like the community here, but it is a yuppie/keep up with the Joneses paridise. That’s what it’s all about in this community, who has the money to act like they have much more then they really do. It is rather fake and plastic, but I like that (which is why I moved to S. FL in the first place). This, much like my last rental (in CityPlace) is not a place to be if you don’t want to be around fake and shallow people (actually, just get on the interstate and head north, that’s pretty much all of S. FL now).

I don’t know about the HOA, because I don’t pay it as a renter. The gates here are a serious PITA, they are often broken, and the security guards have trouble remembering all the faces, so prepare to get your ID out every time you return to your home.

I would estimate that between 15 and 25% of the entire community is for sale. This is having a very negative effect on the “community” aspect of the development. I don’t know any of my neighbors because out of 5-6 houses around me, only 1 is occupied (and we work opposite schedules).

The pool area is fun, but has way too many kids running around. It’s a very, very strange atmosphere; I have seen a girl with her top off and kids running by at the same time. It’s kind of social, but the age mix makes it kind of hard.

One thing that you see here that is VERY odd is POS cars sitting in front of 1M dollar homes. Come on, if you can afford a 1M dollar home, you can definately afford to upgrade from the 89 Toyota. I suspect much of this is either people streching to get into the home, or people downsizing as their payments adjust upwards. I can’t imagine buying a home for 600K+ and not having a good, reliable car.

If your taking out a 600K loan, you should have an income of about 200K a year. I suspect that most of my neighbors are nowhere near that range.

Many rentals are also available; typically between 1/2 and 1/4 of the carrying cost. This is also pretty typical for this area (PGB/Jupiter) in this price range (400-1.2M).

By maxmoose03

March 4, 2007 10:51 PM | Link to this

MIKEY! you have been inconspicuous among the noise-makers like the kid on Welfare (“FEMA” he calls it) in City Place.

Mikey, counting other peoples’ money is a pointless and objectionable endeavor. In the first place, you are never ever going to get it right. Beyond that, people are entitled to their privacy.

Do you know how many of your neighbors made money on the sale of a house before moving to Greenhorn?

How many of those homes were gifts from wealthy paretns?

How many were purchased with nothing down - like I purchase mine, so they can just give it back to the bank when it doesn’t work?

Mikey, I don’t know if you read my story about how every handyman I hired turned out to have at least one paid-off house in an area like Swinton Avenue. There I am trying to induce these guys to work for $25 or $30 an hour, and they have 800K in equity.

And I think everyone knows someone in a place like Century Village, sitting on Salvation Army furniture, and overseeing holdings of many millions of dollars.

Mikey, people like you even though you are nuts. We don’t consider you a nasty piece of work like the “mooseface / easyas123” kid.

So don’t make yourself as objectionable as this kid, please.

You don’t know what other people have, and you have made it more than clear to me, Mike, you don’t have the slightest idea of what carrying expenses are for a landlord.

SO be nice Mikey. Stay away from the bad kids like easyas123.

By cw1900

March 5, 2007 9:50 AM | Link to this

morning notes from cw….

It’s exactly like I’ve been telling you all that think your legislators actually give a crap about you. They don’t. Look at the front page of the Post this morning and read the headline story, “Tax cut balkers exceed backers”. Enough said. It isn’t going to happen. I agree something needs to be done, but it won’t be this dreamland scenario of no property taxes. Plus, I showed you last week how that’s not possible anyway, because you would still get a tax bill. More and more I’m leaning towards the 1% across the board for all, but that won’t pass either.

Socking us with 9% sales tax (6% + 1/2% surtax in place here already, plus 2 1/2% more proposed) is good only in that it taxes everyone who normally does not get taxed heavily or avoid it, i.e. drug dealers, illegals, Steve, Carolina Gal, but 9% is not going to fly either. 9$ is ridiculous. Cut spending and services first. I don’t need half these govt workers on the payroll. Get rid of them.

Those of you who think it will pass and you’ll have your fairy tail ending, go back to listening to your talk radio Bob Hannity, the drug addict Limbaugh, and the conspiracy theory freak Randy Rhodes. Dream on and continue to waste your time. THEY DO NOT CARE WHAT YOU THINK. How many more times can I say it?

Next, I agree with the guy who recommended Jupiter Farms to the person who wanted out of Evergrene. I know people who live out there. Zero problems. No HOA, and they love it. It is a boom area on top of it all, how can you go wrong? Many people think it is the next Parkland. If I was to get out an HOA area and wanted to stay in north county, I believe that is where I would go.

Fink, it sounds like a soap opera in there where you live. As to your cars theory, maybe your wrong. Most millionaires do not drive new cars. Wannabes drive new cars. Read “The Millionaire Next Door”. It will open your eyes. Some are probably on their way up in there career-wise and financially speaking, and they don’t want to waste their money on a new car that crashes in value as soon as it leaves the dealership. It’s a bad use of money that could be making you more money elsewhere, it’s as simple as that. The ones who are driving the 3 to 10 year old cars, they’re the smart ones. The ones who are driving the brand new ones are the broke ones. It’s usually the case. Use your “carrying costs” example you love to speak of in the same manner on vehicles. You will see I am right by a mile.

Mike, I do know someone who works for a company that is in Evergene almost daily, and he says it is a mess in there, the biggest problem, the shoddy construction and junk built houses, is that true?

Max, if you “give it back to the bank” as you say with no money down, then how can you get another if your credit is trashed by “giving it back to the bank” as you say. I’m not understanding that. Please advise. It’s not my style, but I’d like to learn something that maybe I’m missing.

When I said the white bellies of the Dayton on the beach this weekend, I meant they have no tans and are pasty white as most of our northern friends are these days when they come down here and spend money with us for a week every spring (which we need, like, and want, so don’t bit@h about the tourists, you people, w/o them we would all pay more for everything). I thought that was clear.

To Bob in Kettering. Lighten up sparky. Are you the Ohio version of the guy who wants me to fall off a bridge?

Saturday night, we met friends at Duffy’s in Jupiter for dinner. My type of place. Dinner and drinks for mine, $70

Kids ran around as is the case there with all the kids there, $0

The Dad’s drank pitchers of beer, while the wives complained about how many beers we drank, while they talked about whatever they talk about, and all’s well with the world, and the wives drove us home. Priceless.

Have a great day everyone!

cw

By potential homeowner

March 5, 2007 10:12 AM | Link to this

I’m considering building a home in the Acreage. I see someone mentioned Jupiter Farms,but I was wondering if the Acreage has the same potential as Jupiter Farms? For some reason, I like the Acreage over Jupiter Farms and I’m not a redneck.

By to potential homeowner

March 5, 2007 10:29 AM | Link to this

I would never consider the Acreage. Getting east you have to go through the junk areas.

The Acreage has a low class element.

Price appreciation will happen better in Jupiter Farms or PB Country Estates.

I would never go to the Acreage.

By Mike Fink

March 5, 2007 10:34 AM | Link to this

Well, the construction in Evergrene seems OK to me, but I am no expert at all on construction. I know that some people have had very, very big problems in here (there are a few houses that were almost teardowns after the hurricanes; and some still are not fixed). For the layman, the construction looks ok (stuff lines up, doors close correctly, no visible cracks, etc). However, something tells me that is exactly the point of most of these properties put up in the last 5 years. Just make it good enough to fool someone like me who does not know what they are looking at. I would be more leery about buying in here, but if an independent contractor/inspector gave it the OK, I would feel reasonably comfortable.

Trust me, I am right with you on the buying new cars thing. Yes, it’s a real waste of money. Yes, it’s a depreciating asset. And yes, some very rich people drive some older cars.

All that said, if your buying a 600K+ home, a decent (20K) car should just be a total joke. You should be able to buy a decent, inexpensive (either a new cheaper car, or a used expensive car) like nothing. I think it’s pretty typical to find wealthy people driving around in a 10 year old BMW. I don’t think it’s normal to see 98 Nissan Sentras in front of 1M dollar homes. However, I do agree with your point, and perhaps I am seeing the really wealthy people and how they got that way. However, I doubt it, I think that these people make 60-80K a year, and are stretched within an inch of their lives to afford (I use that word very loosely) a 750K home.

If you go BK, or have a repo on your credit right now, you can definately still get a loan for another home. However, as credit continues to tighten (and, let me just mention, I expect this to overcorrect, so I expect credit to get VERY tight in the next 2-3 years) this ability is going to evaporate, futher restoring affodability.

NEW just exploded today on the stock market. Down over 60% since Friday. This is the first of many. Any lender who has high exposure in FL, Las Vegas, Cali, Arizona, etc… Run away, they are in deep, deep trouble.

By easyasabc

March 5, 2007 10:48 AM | Link to this

It is Monday !……What did you all talk about in the last three days ?…..Looks like alot of jib jabrish……especially from RCA…..would someone in that asylum please keep him away from the internet room ? Besides, I think you are a bigger nut if you have to argue with him past 1 am in the morning. Max, I am talking about you! Maybe you have a good excuse…..your dog had the shits and you had to walk him around all night. Lets hope that was the reason.

Lets see, we had talk about HOA’s, Nazi’s, big white bellies, taxes, how it sucks to live in Boynton….Boca….Jupiter Farms….Dayton….and Evergrene.

I know what CW meant about those beach bellies…….

Drinking too many milkshakes and eatting cherry pies will only get you in life of having big white bellies and chubby thighs.

As I cruised off the beach Saturday, I counted eight cruise ships that normally leaves Port Everglades every late saturday afternoon. I thought about the great revenue this state can have on a tax from these people. And we have cruise ports in Tampa, Miami and one up at he Cape.

Anyone see that story on the news last night about the guy who bought a house in the mid 80’s for $140, and his tax bill is now $16,000 a year due to the palm beach county appraisers office. His house was a dump, no additions, or improvments. It had intracoastal access, but the poor guy was getting ripped off by the county. The way the county appraises properties has to change.

I know there are incentives if you move here with business and buy a house……but is there a tax benefit towards your business if you fail in your business and sold your house under what you bought it at? Any accountants out there (besides Mike Fink) who might know this ? Seems there is a tax loop hole here that might hurt home values if people sell for less. Or somebody is getting money under the table at the closing.

No doubt now, Feds will lower the borrowing rate throughout the summer to get the middle class back into buying.

Is it me, or are there less real estate signs around? Did people sell, or just give up and wait it out ?

easyasabc

By maxmoose03

March 5, 2007 11:06 AM | Link to this

Good morning CW.

Ooops - we would be back to another work week - if I worked. I may have to try that again some time, this is not very productive.

Giving houses back to bank — As noted previously, I have never had to do it, and would never go into a property suspecting I would have to do it. But if people out there are suffering as much as I am hearing on this blog, and banks are willing to hold a certain amount of REO, then do what you need to do (again, see an attorney for legal advice). I would suspect even this would pull your credit under 500 temporarily, so expect to be buying the next one in someone else’s name - wife, g/f, corporation, dog…

Did I tell you about the dog in Tampa that got certification as a financial planner? The organization issuing the certification defended itself, saying it suspected the dog had help with the answers on the test.

If you want to laugh your head off while learning why you should stay away from the stock market, read “A Fool and His Money,” by John Rothchild.

Tourists - I was just noting that this is not North Carolina, and tourists of all colors are welcome. This was not to take issue with anything you said, CW.

I did love the dreamworld Bob in Kettering is living in. Bob likes to talk about our “Hedonism.” HA HA ! Little does he realize his daughter is going steady with her high school football team.

He likes “real” Americans. Doesn’t he watch Miami: CSI? Doesn’t he see how smart David Russo is? How much more real do you want than that?

I guess a state that doesn’t shoot its college students isn’t real enough.

A state that doesn’t have city governments that have to be taken over by the Federal government, because they are so infiltrated by organized crime, that’s not real enough.

A state that is not a rusting shell, filled with closed-down factories and empty houses that can be bought for pennies on the dollar…that’s the real America in Bob’s eyes.

Lastly, CW, I hope you realize I was respodning to “easyas123’s” absured boasting about his welfare lifestyle. If the government is paying your rent, it’s welfare, I don’t care if you call it FEMA or Home reilief or AFDC.

61 degrees in Boca Raton….a cold wave.

Time to go, CW…keep it ..uh…real?

By maxmoose03

March 5, 2007 11:10 AM | Link to this

David Caruso, not Russo.

He is fabulous, looks and sounds like the smart-a*s Irish Catholic kids I grew up with in New York.

By To Maxmoose03

March 5, 2007 11:47 AM | Link to this

Sounds like you don’t like smart Irish Catholics Max. What’s wrong? Didn’t they let you play ball with them in the playing field when your were growing up? Did they snub you in life Max? Did smart Irish Catholics outsmart you in life Max? I wouldn’t say anything mean or nasty about Irish Catholics Max, especially this being March and St. Patrick’s Day is not too far off. Remember Max, Irish Catholics have God on their side. Who do you have supporting your side? Be careful Max, cause you will never know when or where a real IRISH CURSE will hit you.

By The rapture is coming

March 5, 2007 11:58 AM | Link to this

Max is full of himself and is delusional telling us he knows people in high places. He uses vulgar language all the time.

Cw is a drunkard and thinks the government should be abandoned.

Fink lives in a place where girls go topless around kids and he sits at the pool and watches this go on right in front of him.

Easy should stay in California. He makes fun of anyone who isn’t like him. He’s as repulsive as Florida.

No wonder people in the midwest states think you down there in Florida are not god fearing people.

By ezmtgsbite

March 5, 2007 12:07 PM | Link to this

Abuse always destroys a good thing. At one time temporary adjustibles let buyers get into a house, then go to standard mtg. Past few yrs buyers and sellers and brokers went nuts from greedisusrealestatus disease. Will be even harder to sell now as fewer potential buyers will qualify for new mtg as standards tighten and number of lenders shrinks. From article today :

“The hot times are clearly over.

New Century’s disclosure of the federal investigations on Friday was the most serious in a string of shocks to have rocked the industry in the last three months.

“A handful of lenders have sought bankruptcy protection, several have been acquired and a few have been shut down. Also on Friday, Fremont General, a top-five lender, said it planned to leave the business.

Industry officials say they are seeing an exodus of executives and salespeople as companies fold, cut jobs and push out early leaders.

“Everyone has run for the hills,” said William D. Dallas, whose company, Ownit Mortgage, filed for bankruptcy protection in December after it lost financing from Merrill Lynch and other banks.

For the borrowers of these mortgages, it may become more difficult to refinance if lending standards are tightened significantly. Many are already facing the prospect of payment shock when low, fixed-interest mortgage rates adjust to higher, variable rates. “

article available at nytimes.com

By Signed

March 5, 2007 12:08 PM | Link to this

“Hush, hush little ones, the church is more important than your feelings. Besides, Father O’Reilly is a good man, I don’t believe he did anything like you said, and you should be ashamed of yourself for saying such a wicked thing about the Priest who married your mother and father.

And besides, if the priests in Delray Beach wanted to gamble and pay for hookers, then I think there must be a good reason. They are talking to god and their embezzling money must be good for our parish.”

Signed,

Many Catholic apologists

Catholics are linked to pedophile priests they have covered up for years and even let their own children live in fear of getting abused again and again for the sake of the church’s reputation. That is disgusting. Catholicism has been diminishing for years and with good reason. It is foul.

By signedisajewindisguise

March 5, 2007 12:30 PM | Link to this

signed is probably a jew and hates catholics

could this be alias maxmoose03 in disguise

how dare you criticize Catholicism you dirty SWINE

By The truth hurts

March 5, 2007 12:48 PM | Link to this

If it was not true, you wouldn’t be so upset.

Get over it, you brainwashed imbecile.

How much did you dutifully give to your parish last year?

Did you get a good accounting of where it all went? I’d check if I were you.

I’m not sure if giving money so someone can go on vacation to a Bahamas casino is a tax deductible event.

By bubble boy

March 5, 2007 2:16 PM | Link to this

Housing bubble?

HeII, I think the Catholic bubble burst about 10 years ago.

The diddling of little boys by psychotic priests rocked their frothy market.

Just look at some of our upstanding citizens right here who pulled their money away and invested in other markets, errrr, i.e. religions.

The Bubble boy is back baby!

By maxmoose03

March 5, 2007 3:22 PM | Link to this

“To Maxmoose”:

I said “smart-a*s.” I grew up with smart-a*s Irish caothlics. I grew up with smart-a*s Italians. I grew up with smart-a*s Jews. I grew up with smart-a*s blacks and Perto Ricans. It was NYC, can you dig it?

And David Caruso did a great job on NYPD Blue of sounding like an Irish-Catholic cop just a few years off the playground. He is good on CSI, but it just doesn’t hit home like it used to.

Sounds like we really have some sensitive Catholics out there in Ohio. Unfortunately, many of them are hypocrites who voted against their own fellow Catholic for President, and instead embraced one of the most evil characters of the 20th century.

And naturally, when something happens that they don’t like — like “Signed” criticizing the Catholic Church, it’s automatically the fault of a Jew. Some things never change.

Since I am not Catholic, I always decline to comment on the reports of priests buggering little boys and the Church covering it up. I am sorry for the devout Catholics who have been pained by the allegations, but I don’t know enough about it personally to judge.

I know my novia, who was brought up Catholic, has enough stories of priests hitting on her (she was a runway model), and amassing private fortunes, to last me a lifetime. She finally abandoned Catholicism, feeling it was corrupt beyond all possible redemption.

“signedisajewindisguise” — go get some help for your antisemitism. The time was not very long ago in this country when Catholics were looked upon as foreign invaders. It’s nice to see you feeling so “in” and comfortable in America, but astonishing to see you think you can afford to be a bigot.

Funny, our half-naked, hedonistic, non-God-fearing Floridians are looking more like the “real” Americans - and real people - to me.

By Loser Rich R.

March 9, 2007 8:18 PM | Link to this

ANYBODY REMEMBER THIS? By Rich R

November 27, 2006 03:12 PM | Link to this

I’d have to say, after living in Boca, my net worth is substantially higher then the average in Boca.

In my case, I’ll thank my family. I inherited most of my worth. Either way, I don’t finance anything. AT ALL. WHAT A LOSER huh??